# DSLR or not



## dheerajpant (Aug 23, 2013)

Hi all,

I want to buy a new camera, I already have a Canon IXUS 100 IS, but I want a more powerful camera.
I have always thought of buying a DSLR, but would always postpone it. Finally I have decided to buy one anyways(was waiting for a good increment in salary but it appears increment is a myth  ).

So, I have few questions before we narrow down a model(I am in no hurry to buy one, I want to be sure before investing  ) :

1) How different(disadvantages, advatages) is a Advance Point and Shoot when compared to a DSLR of the same price range(my budget is around 30k)?

2) Is it better to go for a mirrorless camera or a DSLR? Though mirrorless cameras are slim but with the huge lens they look awkward to me 

I am attracted towards DSLR because of the images they produce.


More questions will come as I do more research.

Thanks


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## sujoyp (Aug 23, 2013)

I would put some questions regarding ur questions 

1. DSLR's are for quality and cost ...Long zoom cams are for ease of use and compromises ....which one do you choose? Ask yourself if you are passionate enough to spend regularly on DSLR or its a one time expenditure. 

2. Now mirrorless cams are quit small in size ...you can avoide those huge lenses if u are not a bird photographer ....they have very good quality and very easy to carry....but thing is it dont have viewfinder in most and no grip in most of them...where a dslr have optical viewfinder, much better grip but its heavy and had to carry in a bag...what do you say about this??


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## dheerajpant (Aug 23, 2013)

Thanks Sujoy for the quick reply I was counting on you   .

Here comes the answers  : 
1) I like clicking photograps and I am quite fasinated when I see pics clicked by others.
As far as expenditure goes I think for regular use, 2-3 lenses are enough(this is what I got reading threads that are here.) and I required I can spend in the future though not a humongous amount... or are there any othere expenditures that are incurred from time to time?
2) Though they are small but what I have seen if you are carrying 2 lenses than also you would have to carry a bag. So, size is not a 'big' concern for me  ... So, according to you viewfinder and grip are the only negatives that we have when are talking about mirrorless camera.

Thanks


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## sujoyp (Aug 23, 2013)

one more thing I would like to tell you before even selecting a dslr 

you have to take care of your lenses and dslr...you have to regularly clean them ...and keep them using....if u keep a dslr and lenses without use for even 1 month then most probably u will be getting fungus on them...which in turn never goes away and damage the photo quality of lens and camera....soo prepare to use it every week 

ok now...next step is go to a nearby camera shop and handle the dslrs....and tell us if canon, sony or nikon you liked...then we will take it forward   every manufacturers have different grips, different body and button placements...you have to feel it to know


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## dheerajpant (Aug 23, 2013)

sujoyp said:


> one more thing I would like to tell you before even selecting a dslr
> 
> you have to take care of your lenses and dslr...you have to regularly clean them ...and keep them using....if u keep a dslr and lenses without use for even 1 month then most probably u will be getting fungus on them...which in turn never goes away and damage the photo quality of lens and camera....soo prepare to use it every week
> 
> ok now...next step is go to a nearby camera shop and handle the dslrs....and tell us if canon, sony or nikon you liked...then we will take it forward  every manufacturers have different grips, different body and button placements...you have to feel it to know



Hello Sujoy,

I had read this advice(fungus one) in some other thread that you gave to a new DSLR buyer, I will make it a point to atleast regularly clean the lens and camera if I am not able to use it(can I know why it is that DSLR's are prone to fungus?). I have already handled the DSLR's of Cannon and Nikon and found that mostly it depends on the amount you are willing to pay there isn't a standard feel to all the camera's of the same company...

Thanks


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## sujoyp (Aug 23, 2013)

if u are not able to use the cam and lens the simplest thing  to avoide fungus is to keep it in light such that it passes through the lens and cam....like keeping it in well lighted room with both caps of lens open...or keep it in sunlight but see that dust do not enter the lens 
Yaah dslr and lenses are fungus prone coz of the attachment part...the lenses are open from back and camera from front...the moisture have ample room to enter  its something like that ..not scientific through 

in ur budget u will get D5100 and canon 600D  both are very nice DSLR and there isnt much to choose about...people say D5100 have better ISO and 600D have definitely better video controls ....
also as a system canon lenses are somewhat costlier then nikon ones ...but then we have third party lenses to compensate.


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## dheerajpant (Aug 23, 2013)

sujoyp said:


> if u are not able to use the cam and lens the simplest thing to avoide fungus is to keep it in light such that it passes through the lens and cam....like keeping it in well lighted room with both caps of lens open...or keep it in sunlight but see that dust do not enter the lens
> Yaah dslr and lenses are fungus prone coz of the attachment part...the lenses are open from back and camera from front...the moisture have ample room to enter  its something like that ..not scientific through
> 
> in ur budget u will get D5100 and canon 600D both are very nice DSLR and there isnt much to choose about...people say D5100 have better ISO and 600D have definitely better video controls ....
> also as a system canon lenses are somewhat costlier then nikon ones ...but then we have third party lenses to compensate.



Somedays back I had seen on flipkart that they were giving D1100 at 31k with two lenses but the review for 1100D weren't that great(plasticky feel etc...). 
So, D5100 and 600D both are around 30k and that is the price of the body only naa??
How much would some basic lenses which can take landscape pics or for zoom would cost?

And please also elaborate earlier you had said investing in future, was it for lenses only or are there any other things that one has to buy??
And in general how many lens are generally used in normal usage(I know its too subjective but like some some outdoors, family pics etc)??

And one more question with regular practice and reading about photography, is it possible to get basic knowledge about the working of the camera in about 1-2 months?


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## sujoyp (Aug 23, 2013)

1100D is good start if u are comming from point and shoot...but D3100 have better reviews then 1100D ...but that offer is awesome..
the nikon combination of D3100+18-55+55-200 will cost you around 34k 

the price of D5100 and 600D at around 28-29k is with 18-55 kit lens 

a simple zoom lens will cost you from 7k to 28k  .....there are choices in both canon and nikon

the cheapest is tamron 70-300 di ld around 7-8k for both canon and nikon

then you have canon 55-250 and nikon 55-200 around 12-13k

then nikon 55-300 for around 18k

then tamron 70-300VC USD and nikon 70-300 for around 26-28k

 for landscape and group shots 18-55 is enough

investing in lens is more than camera itself....other than that camera bag, clening kit, tripod, filters, flash etc 

in general 3 lens is enough to cover most things ...a macro lens , zoom lens and a wide angle ....18-55 is good enough for family, holidays and party shots....but for indoors u will also need an external flash

yaahh just keep clicking and read...you will know all in 2 months  ...but after clicking see what is wrong with ur pic...be critic of urself


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## raja manuel (Aug 23, 2013)

dheerajpant said:


> I am attracted towards DSLR because of the images they produce.


Can you elaborate on this? I ask because I have seen too many people look at photographs taken with very expensive lenses, assistants to hold reflectors, and extensively post processed from which they conclude that the DSLR takes better pictures than the point and shoot. 

Have you done a comparison where you are sure that an entry level DSLR with a cheap lens provides significantly better photographs in identical shooting and processing conditions? Have you installed CHDK for your IXUS 100 IS, or seen photographs from others who have done so and still been left wanting in terms of photo quality? Have you learnt to push RAW files from your camera to the maximum in post?


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## dheerajpant (Aug 24, 2013)

sujoyp said:


> 1100D is good start if u are comming from point and shoot...but D3100 have better reviews then 1100D ...but that offer is awesome..
> the nikon combination of D3100+18-55+55-200 will cost you around 34k
> 
> the price of D5100 and 600D at around 28-29k is with 18-55 kit lens
> ...



Thank you Sujoy, for your reply. I read about D3100 and the thing that concerned me that it didn't had a AF motor so the lenses that are there for D3100 are more expensive... Do the Tamron lenses you mentioned have the AF motors in them? 



Raja Manuel said:


> Can you elaborate on this? I ask because I have seen too many people look at photographs taken with very expensive lenses, assistants to hold reflectors, and extensively post processed from which they conclude that the DSLR takes better pictures than the point and shoot.
> 
> Have you done a comparison where you are sure that an entry level DSLR with a cheap lens provides significantly better photographs in identical shooting and processing conditions? Have you installed CHDK for your IXUS 100 IS, or seen photographs from others who have done so and still been left wanting in terms of photo quality? Have you learnt to push RAW files from your camera to the maximum in post?



Hello Raja,

I have seen the pics that my friends had taken with their DSLR camera's and they are amazing and the pics on Sujoy's and other's flickr account are also great.

As far as CHDK goes I had planned to use it but then dropped the idea because it was the only camera that we had and didn't wanted to fiddle with it.

Thanks


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## sujoyp (Aug 24, 2013)

@dheeraj thats a misconception that D3100 dont have motor soo its a problem ....for people like us who are newbies with no old lens it makes no difference...
And canon too have no motor inside...
the only difference is the cheap 50mm lens which canon cost 6k and nikon 12k ....remaining it dosnt matter about inbody focus motor

yaah Tamron have motor inside...the cheap one have slower focus motor and costly one have faster and better focus motor


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## dheerajpant (Aug 25, 2013)

Hi Sujoy,

What do you think about Sony SLTA 58K?


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## pranav0091 (Aug 25, 2013)

^ You wont find Sujoy or me recommending the ALT series over the 3100/5100/550D/600D at the 30k price range. If anything higher, then the D7000 (Sujoy again)

I'd advise you to spend some time with the electronic viewfinder of the Sony models. I tried them and they werent to my taste - cue the lag and te unnatural feel. Also personally i feel that the limited resolution hampers manual focussing a tiny bit. But they do have crazy fast focus in Live view mode (the mode where you use the DSLR like a regular point and shoot, when the display shows the live stream from the lens like in point and shoots), the Canon and Nikon models at this price point are positivly slow-mo in this regard, but then Live view is of a pretty low importance to most people.

Also do not ever choose a DSLR without having ever held it in real life. The grip is one of the most important aspects of buying a DSLR.

Also note that I had recently seen the 1100D sell for 21k with the 18-55 + 55-250mm lens => The lenses alone are worth over 15k. Very very good deal, but make sure you handle the body firsthand. The build is plastic and while not a dealbreaker, when you have money to spend, it makes sense to buy a body that you truly liked. 

And to dispel the myth of a good DSLR needed to get good pictures, every single pic that Sujoy took using his 3100, he'd have been able to take on a 110oD as well. the lenses and accessories are far more important to the final image quality, where the build contributes to comfort of holding the camera.


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## sujoyp (Aug 25, 2013)

eeh pranav too many sujoy in ur comment  

yes the optical viewfinders are much more useful then electronic viewfinder....the electronic viewfinder in sony's higher models like A99 are much better..
and D7000 body @43k is like amazing deal 

when selecting a body , handling is very important...some people like D5100's grip some 600D ....its a matter of personal choice...and between D3100 and 1100D, D3100 have definitely better body 

dont be hurry for lenses...even I had got zoom lens only after 3 months of using 18-55 kit ...you have to learn the basics first...then see what is ur liking ....there are soo many types of photography genres ....each may require different set of accessories ...
will give u my example ...after getting dslr I got crazzy about macro photography of insects ....soo the cheapest way was to get a 50mm lens and use extension tubes with that...got both for 3500 ...now after trying a lot i found that without external flash its not just possible...got a cheap chineese youngnuo flash for 3500 more ....then got to know that flash light is harsh soo need a diffuser...got a diffuser for flash for 350 ....and then when I was good in macro bought a macro lens


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## dheerajpant (Aug 25, 2013)

pranav0091 said:


> ^ You wont find Sujoy or me recommending the ALT series over the 3100/5100/550D/600D at the 30k price range. If anything higher, then the D7000 (Sujoy again)
> 
> I'd advise you to spend some time with the electronic viewfinder of the Sony models. I tried them and they werent to my taste - cue the lag and te unnatural feel. Also personally i feel that the limited resolution hampers manual focussing a tiny bit. But they do have crazy fast focus in Live view mode (the mode where you use the DSLR like a regular point and shoot, when the display shows the live stream from the lens like in point and shoots), the Canon and Nikon models at this price point are positivly slow-mo in this regard, but then Live view is of a pretty low importance to most people.
> 
> ...



Thanks Pranav, 
I was planning to get a 'handson' today but it is raining here so waiting for it to stop. And will definitely try them before buying.



sujoyp said:


> eeh pranav too many sujoy in ur comment
> 
> yes the optical viewfinders are much more useful then electronic viewfinder....the electronic viewfinder in sony's higher models like A99 are much better..
> and D7000 body @43k is like amazing deal
> ...



@Sujoy Thanks Sujoy for sharing your experience, frankly it was kind of funny but I suppose this is how beginners learn    , 
One of my friend has a Sony NEX 5R, and he is suggesting me to buy it or at-least try it before making a purchase. Truly, I didn't wanted a mirrorless but it truly has got some great reviews, what say??

It is some good money that is going to be invested into this so I want to make sure that I get a bang for my buck(So, I am trying to suppress my though of buying instantly)

Thanks


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## pranav0091 (Aug 25, 2013)

The one sentence guide to buying a mirrorless : If you can live with the bulk of a DSLR, ALWAYS buy a regular DRSLR over a mirrorless at any specific price point.

The reasoning is that every camera is a compromise : A compromise of cost, features and bulk. Mirrorless cameras trade bulk for price. Not saying they are bad (they arent) but at any given price point, you can always find a regular DSLR that does better as a camera than a mirrorless version. You are free to choose a mirrorless even if you are more than just a casual photographer, but that should be only because you decide that a regular DSLR is too much bulk for you to carry around and no other reason.

Now back to what you wish to get from your purchase - bang for the buck. Then go with a regular DSLR. They are considerably bulkier than a mirrorless (I can only fit my 600D with the default bag inside my laptop bag and nothing else except a jacket squashed on the sides) but you now have a comfortable grip that you can hold for long periods of time at a significantly lower price.

The other thing I'd like you to know is that newer doesnt always mean better - I still prefer the D3100 and D5100 as a whole over their replacements D3200 and D5200 both of which cost 4-9k more than their predeccessors. Dont let someone fool you into believing that you are making a wrong choice by going for anything except the latest model, it doesnt work that way in cameras. Also, dont let the presence or absence of 'guide modes' fool you - within your first 1000 pictures, you will have developed the feel for photography's intricacies - exposure, focus and composition. 

Rregarding the looks of the mirrorless cameras - even Dslrs looks pretty 'unbalanced' when you ewuip them with a lens thats set to 250mm or so (the body looks timy compared to the lonf tubular lens) but thats the choice you make. You choose to not let the looks deter you from taking a good looking photograph. At the end of the day nobody remembers how your camera looked, but they may remember the resulting photograph. 

Go to chroma or ezone or any other shop where they let you try cameras. Dont feel awkward trying the cameras with no intention of buying them, just look at their face and tell em you are trying to find a grip and layout that suits you. Most of the salespersons there have no clue of the intricacies of buying a DSLR - they keep harping about megapixels and brand names - you probably already know better than them. I had probably spent something 10 or more visits to different stores spending some 10-20 minutes each time, focused only on the models I had narrowed down as potential purchases, before buying it from ebay


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## sujoyp (Aug 25, 2013)

Nex5R is good....but its upto you..if u are fine with small lenses and unusual grip and no viewfnder then you are good to go ...I think anirban in our forum has bought a Nex6 ...you can take feedback from him about handling (check photography thread and you will find him)

As I told you it takes quit a long time to learn...and also you have to study a bit ...just get a D5100 or a 600D for now..play with it ...see the setting...try to mock the pics of experts...use photoshop....make blunders   and you will learn soon...then get 2nd lens

BTW I have to tell you that winter is the time for birding...if you remotely like birding then Nikon 55-300 or canon 55-250 are the cheap options you have.


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## pranav0091 (Aug 25, 2013)

sujoyp said:


> BTW I have to tell you that winter is the time for birding...if you remotely like birding then Nikon 55-300 or canon 55-250 are the cheap options you have.



Adding this little bit : Do not buy a Non IS lens above 100mm if you are not going to have a tripod with you.


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## dheerajpant (Aug 25, 2013)

pranav0091 said:


> The one sentence guide to buying a mirrorless : If you can live with the bulk of a DSLR, ALWAYS buy a regular DRSLR over a mirrorless at any specific price point.
> 
> The reasoning is that every camera is a compromise : A compromise of cost, features and bulk. Mirrorless cameras trade bulk for price. Not saying they are bad (they arent) but at any given price point, you can always find a regular DSLR that does better as a camera than a mirrorless version. You are free to choose a mirrorless even if you are more than just a casual photographer, but that should be only because you decide that a regular DSLR is too much bulk for you to carry around and no other reason.
> 
> ...



Hi, as soon as the rain stopped I went to a mall nearby, it had a Sony and Cannon store no Croma or eZone... So, went to Cannon tried 600D it had a good grip but didn't had anything to compare it against so, next time would try to find a mall with some electronic store so that it have models to compare... And what do you think whether ebay has better offers than flipkart etc?



sujoyp said:


> Nex5R is good....but its upto you..if u are fine with small lenses and unusual grip and no viewfnder then you are good to go ...I think anirban in our forum has bought a Nex6 ...you can take feedback from him about handling (check photography thread and you will find him)
> 
> As I told you it takes quit a long time to learn...and also you have to study a bit ...just get a D5100 or a 600D for now..play with it ...see the setting...try to mock the pics of experts...use photoshop....make blunders   and you will learn soon...then get 2nd lens
> 
> BTW I have to tell you that winter is the time for birding...if you remotely like birding then Nikon 55-300 or canon 55-250 are the cheap options you have.



'Birding' sounds good  .

According to you which is better D5100, D3100 or 600D(I would be reading the reviews but as you guys are 'initiated' and have hands on so it helps  )??

And why is 3100 considered to be more begineer friendly than 5100??

Thanks


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## sujoyp (Aug 25, 2013)

Nooooo this is a impossible question which dslr is better   Me(nikonian with D3100) and pranav(cononite with 600D) will fight to death and u wont be able to decide anything  

Short answer D5100 and 600D are equal ...just feel them in hand and select which u like 

D3100 may be a begineer friendly dslr coz its cheap, its lightweight, it have less features ...it have that noob mode (which i never used) ...and its pic quality is still great
but comon I have been using it from last 3 years in various condition...its not that bad  yes but now I want to upgrade to D7100


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## dheerajpant (Aug 25, 2013)

Sujoy what do you think about this deal??
New Nikon DSLR Camera D5100 Black + 18-55mm VR Kit Lens+4GB+Carry Case | eBay

Though the buyer has good feedback but in the last 1 month he has got several complaints and mostly for D5100 and 600D...


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## pranav0091 (Aug 25, 2013)

Like Sujoy already mentioned at the same price I'd recommend a 600D over the D5100 

Not kidding, the magic lantern firmware for 600D makes it pretty damn awesome - how about focus highlight, intervalometer, Exposure bracketing (with options), custom motion detection sound ?

Yes, I am shamelessly hyping the Canon with fancy terms, but believe me the 600D and the D5100 both are great cameras. I personally feel the Nikon has the better grip and the Canon having better IQ. Then there is magic lantern and that helps substantially swing the balance into the Canon's side. 

I had seen offers for the 600D with the 18-55 lens in flipkart for just under 29k.


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## sujoyp (Aug 25, 2013)

pranav you forgot the ultimate quality test the dxo mark ...in which D5100 beats canon 600d in every test...and its internationally recognised 

DxOMark - Nikon D5100 vs Canon EOS 600D, the dxomark comparison


Also everyone knows that D5100 have better low light capabilities then 600D

dheeraj if the seller got complaints look elsewhere


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## pranav0091 (Aug 26, 2013)

Never liked Dxo mark results, I have had a lot of experience in some products that suggests those technical numbers dont quite do justice to the real sensors, a case in point being my late 920 which got one of the worst numbers in that test, but still stood up more than well to anything else. I get the feeling like those numbers describe a batsmans average and strike rate - which often bear no resemblance to how he is going to bat on a given day 

In any case the magic lantern use cases for me beat some technical scores any day 

And dpreview sample shots are surely better focused on the 600D


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## sujoyp (Aug 26, 2013)

huh those software enhancements have no competition to the real sensor in nikon  joking ....magic lantern is really useful 

Ooh pranav now stop it...or else I will start reading reviews and comparison to find faults in 600D


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## dheerajpant (Aug 26, 2013)

Thank you Pranav and Sujoy...

I would be now delving into the 'technical terms', features and ergonomics more and see which I find more suitable for my needs  .

One more question are the lenses of both brands almost the same price??(I mean some basic ones).

What I had got till now(hadn't read much on comparison of both) that Canon has good movie making capabilities but the raw images of Nikon are better. Will post some questions if I am not able to understand something and I have still to read about this 'magic lantern'  ...

Thanks guys


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## pranav0091 (Aug 26, 2013)

Lenses are pretty similarly prices except for the the 50mm prime I think. Sujoy knows it better.

Essentially, all of EF-S lenses from Canon come with focus motors whereas some from Nikon dont. Hence, got to be a wee bit careful in comparing. Since I dont have a Nikon, dont know about their prices.


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## sujoyp (Aug 26, 2013)

yes almost all lenses are similar in prices...look you can not compare the prices one on one...but you can just say that for begineers they are same

yes nikon AFS lenses have focus motors ...and while reading the specification you have to see that it should be AFS only...but in last 10 years nikon have made almost 99% lenses AFS...soo no worries 

if u compare canon 50mm costing 6k to nikon AFS 50mm costing 13k .....then we can also compare canon 70-300 IS USM costing 45k to nikon 70-300 AFS VR costing 30k ....both similar performer


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## raja manuel (Aug 26, 2013)

dheerajpant said:


> Hello Raja,
> 
> I have seen the pics that my friends had taken with their DSLR camera's and they are amazing and the pics on Sujoy's and other's flickr account are also great.
> 
> ...



I would recommend you try it out to see how far you can push your existing camera and yourself. The straight out of camera JPGs I get from my 600D are nothing special (if I use the standard picture styles). The transformation once I put the raw files through a developer is stunning.

Two of my colleagues are trying to go pro and have D7000s with a bunch of lenses, and have even opened a studio. One of them recently won a contest and had his photo featured in an exhibition. It all sounded like the magic of a serious enthusiast with a semi-pro DSLR until the other let out that the photo that won the contest was actually taken with a point and shoot.

Remember we live in a world where more and more pro level work that used to be the domain of DSLRs is now being done with mobile phone cameras. An entire fashion shoot was done with an iPhone, and the New York Times put a photo taken with an iPhone and processed with Instagram on its front page. Yesterday's toys are today's serious business.

But why stop at comparing mobile phones with DSLRs? How about an advanced compact vs. medium format? It has been several years since a very famous photographer (one of the guys who pioneered the concept of ETTR) conducted an experiment with a Canon G10 vs. Hasselblad with results that gave sleepless nights to those who like to impress chicks with their expensive cameras.

Bottom line: great photos come from great photographers, not great cameras.



pranav0091 said:


> Also do not ever choose a DSLR without having ever held it in real life. The grip is one of the most important aspects of buying a DSLR.





sujoyp said:


> when selecting a body , handling is very important...



This is certainly conventional wisdom but here is someone who argues against going by how a DSLR feels in your hand, particularly when you are new to DSLRs. I agree with him.



pranav0091 said:


> Do not buy a Non IS lens above 100mm if you are not going to have a tripod with you.


Unless you are going to be freezing a fast moving object where the high shutter speed would compensate for the lack of IS. And let us not forget a feature known as burst mode.



dheerajpant said:


> One of my friend has a Sony NEX 5R, and he is suggesting me to buy it or at-least try it before making a purchase.





pranav0091 said:


> The one sentence guide to buying a mirrorless : If you can live with the bulk of a DSLR, ALWAYS buy a regular DRSLR over a mirrorless at any specific price point.


Here is the wisest advice I have heard about cameras: The best camera for taking a photograph is the one you have in your hand. I remember one of the members of this forum bought a mirrorless camera because he was tired of hearing people say 'I have a DSLR, it is at home'. Now that is a sign of a person who knew why he wanted what he wanted and went for it.


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## lm2k (Aug 26, 2013)

Regarding CHDK, i have used it since about a year. Firstly in my friends canon A3200is and my own sx150. It does give some functionalities like RAW mode, AV,Tv,iso overrides, scripts and much more but still i think it is not fair to make a comparison between a DSLR and a CHDK loaded point and shoot, it is like comparing a car with a main battle tank(each have their own advantages). So it all boils down to the requirements(shooting conditions) of the OP. 
Image quality is just 2% of what we see, first thing is composition . We dont appreciate a painting for its IQ, do we?


One of my cousin is a photojournalist , when he brought his first DSLR the first thing he did after reading the manuals was to *learn to carry it around* with himself(this went for some 4 months or so).


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## dheerajpant (Aug 27, 2013)

Thank you all,

The 5100 has "Sophisticated AF system for this price" this is the main diff. that I fell that concerns me right now, so what do you have to say is this such a big issue that it can worth breaking a deal with 600D??


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## sujoyp (Aug 27, 2013)

we have told you from start that there is very minor difference between D5100 and 600D while using them...u wont feel any difference when using them....pick any of it which is giving you a better deal


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## pranav0091 (Aug 27, 2013)

dheerajpant said:


> Thank you all,
> 
> The 5100 has "Sophisticated AF system for this price" this is the main diff. that I fell that concerns me right now, so what do you have to say is this such a big issue that it can worth breaking a deal with 600D??



There is no deal breaker like Sujoy already pointed out. If there were - look at my signature - I wouldnt have bought a 600D myself over the D5100 paying about 3k extra. From my hands on experience 600D actually betters the 5100D in focus accuracy, expecially in low light. I have seen the D5100 fail to lock focus when the 600D was able to albeit after a bit of hunting. The Nikon has a faster Live view though and a slightly better grip, but the 600D counters with better button placement and  DOF button (though I never use it anyways)


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## dheerajpant (Aug 27, 2013)

Hi,

Thank you all for your support I have decided to go for 600D, though day before yesterday I had almost ordered the 5100  .

I have got 2 offers on flipkart :
1) 32248/- Camera + 4GB SD Card + Camera Bag.
2) 33945/- Camera + 4GB+16GB card + 58mm UV Filter + lens cleaning kit + Bag.

The only hitch with the 2nd seller is that he is a new one and dosen't has any reviews.

If you know of any better deals please do tell  .
So, what you say??

Thanks


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## sujoyp (Aug 27, 2013)

flipkart is overpriced nowdays...check local shops too...that card and bag is free from canon soo its not part of deal...uv filter is useless...just the Rs.450 cleaning kit is useful if they are giving lenspen 

And we have seen 600D prices as low as 29k...32k is high


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## pranav0091 (Aug 27, 2013)

Why not get it for cheaper on Ebay:
New Canon EOS 600D DSLR Camera Kit EF 18-55mm IS II Lens+4GB+Carry Case | eBay

Also, what are your reasons for preferring the 600D over the D5100 ?

Buying UV filters is pointless (nearly) unless your intention is just to preotect the front element of the lens rather than actual UV protection.

Or if you dont like Ebay for some reason buy from FK themselves (not any other FK seller, since in that case you are better off using ebay) and try to use the 5% cashback and EMI option:
Flipkart


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## dheerajpant (Aug 27, 2013)

sujoyp said:


> flipkart is overpriced nowdays...check local shops too...that card and bag is free from canon soo its not part of deal...uv filter is useless...just the Rs.450 cleaning kit is useful if they are giving lenspen
> 
> And we have seen 600D prices as low as 29k...32k is high



Thanks Sujoy ~@29k only 600D body is avaliable(I have searched: ebay, flipkart and amazon)...



pranav0091 said:


> Why not get it for cheaper on Ebay:
> New Canon EOS 600D DSLR Camera Kit EF 18-55mm IS II Lens+4GB+Carry Case | eBay
> 
> Also, what are your reasons for preferring the 600D over the D5100 ?
> ...



Thanks Pranav, but the link you have provided, I have already visited that seller he has got 99.3% positive review but for the past 1 month and specially for 5100D and D600 he has got some negatives(mainly late delivery and no correspondence) ...

And the price I quoted 32248/- is after the 5% discount  .
The major diff that I felt after reading several reviews and comparison of the two cameras were 5100 AF and Low light capabilities, for which you have already given answers that they are not deal breakers...And I liked the punchy images produced by Canon(though many prefer the neutral ones Nickon produces...) And by the way do 600 has HDR just asking...


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## pranav0091 (Aug 27, 2013)

600D doesnt do HDR all by itself, although there is support for bracketing (then use some software to auto-HDR). But there are options under magic lantern (again a bit manual, but fun to tinker with nevertheless), which is what I use 

If I were you, I'd buy from that seller. But whatever you are comfortable with.


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## nac (Aug 27, 2013)

Yeah, it seems like 17/20 -ive comments are from the last one month. There is sure some issues... Contact that ebay seller and whether he can make it without any fuss... 

Checkout snapdeal... it costs about 29k after coupon...


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## dheerajpant (Aug 28, 2013)

Thanks nac,
Just ordered my 600D from SnapDeal...

Amount: 30795/- After copoun: 29795/-(There was another seller who was selling it for about 800/- cheaper but his feedback was bad 2.3/5 so decided to go with this one lets see )

Will let you know when I receive it.

Thank you all for all you support .


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## sujoyp (Aug 28, 2013)

congrats dheeraj ...I have also checked the same seller on ebay for you and avoided him  you got a good deal..enjoy


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## nac (Aug 29, 2013)

That's so quick...


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## dheerajpant (Aug 30, 2013)

Thanks Sujoy,

@nac hehehe it was fast from my side, but not from snapdeal(or the sellers) side. The expected shipment date is Sep 2 and the order is in progress, can't wait to get my hands on it  ... This is the benefit of flipkart(though now they are selling goods as higher price) I would have got my SLR today or by tomorrow ...

Lets see...
will keep you all posted.


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## dheerajpant (Aug 31, 2013)

Update :

It has been 4 days sine I placed the order and the status was still showing 'In Progress'(intuitions were saying something was not right), so I rang snapdeal's customer care and when I inquired about the status being same since the last 4 days he said that the camera has gone out of stock  , and they are arranging from some other merchant(though I don't believe any other merchant). Lets see what happens the expected delivery date is 2nd and if they are not able to ship it than the amount would be refunded, than again the 'khoj'(search) for the best deal would start...


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## sujoyp (Aug 31, 2013)

its ok bro ...still there are 2 days...this things happen quit frequently these days with online shopping...dont worry


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## nac (Aug 31, 2013)

Is 600D soon to be discontinued?

Start your search from here if have to...


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## dheerajpant (Sep 1, 2013)

sujoyp said:


> its ok bro ...still there are 2 days...this things happen quit frequently these days with online shopping...dont worry



I am generally a flipkart person(so you can understand the rush), and I don't know why I am so super exited to get my hands on it(though I don't know much about the working of DSLR's, have started reading one ebook though)



nac said:


> Is 600D soon to be discontinued?
> 
> Start your search from here if have to...



Don't know but what I am observing is that suddenly the demand for Nikon 5100 and Canon 600D has shot up(or maybe the supply has decreased...)


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## pranav0091 (Sep 1, 2013)

dheerajpant said:


> I am generally a flipkart person(so you can understand the rush), and I don't know why I am so super exited to get my hands on it(though I don't know much about the working of DSLR's, have started reading one ebook though)
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know but what I am observing is that suddenly the demand for Nikon 5100 and Canon 600D has shot up(or maybe the supply has decreased...)



Try this  :

CameraSim simulates a digital SLR camera - SLR Photography Demystified

PS: Notice that scale right in the middle in green - thats all you really care about (mostly  ). Once you get into manual mode using the viewfinder, you'll know what I am talking about.


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## sujoyp (Sep 1, 2013)

@nac and dheeraj ...its normal isnt it ....old dslr phased out 3-4 months after its replacement is announced coz there productions stops and its just stock clearance.

Canon had 650D and now 700D to replace 600D and nikon have D5200 to replace D5100 ...D5100 is selling for just 27-28k..its awesome deal ....even nikon D7000 is clearing up and selling for just 42-43k thats equal to price of D90 somedays back.


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## nac (Sep 1, 2013)

^ But the beauty is Canon discontinued 650D... Already, 1100D seems like a stock clearance sale. And if 600D is discontinued, then the next cheapest will be 60D, a semi pro body.


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## sujoyp (Sep 1, 2013)

no nac I am sure its like that only
100D will replace 1100D at 30k 
700D will cost around 38k replacing 650D
70D will be 50k body replacing 60D

.and slowly price will come down again ...its same everytime
Even in  nikon 
D3100 is 24k , D5100 is 27k both are clearing up ....
D3200 is 32k , D5200 is 38k now 
D7000 42k body (clearing) then D7100 68k

nikon is going to announce 2-3 more dslr this year...people say it will be D5300 and D610


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## raja manuel (Sep 2, 2013)

sujoyp said:


> no nac I am sure its like that only
> 100D will replace 1100D at 30k


Why do you say this? I can understand the 700D replacing 650D as it is only a slight refresh of the existing package, but the 100D and 1100D are worlds apart. Strategically the 1100D exists to get people into the Canon system at a very low price point with the low spec body (though it does have neat features like depth of field preview) being almost free. If the 100D is replacing the 1100D then it is a very big step up features wise, not to mention the world's smallest DSLR tag which commands a price premium making it strategically occupy a very different niche from the 1100D. Even the naming convention (3 digit vs. 4) suggests Canon is positioning it a step above the 100D.


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## sujoyp (Sep 3, 2013)

@raja ...I really have very less idea about 100D ...I just felt maybe its for starters who can have a small dslr with all the functionality ...just like D3100 is nikon's smallest dslr
I am sure by making it that small canon is trying to give compitition to panasonic G series and recently launched sony Nex mount in DSLT body


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## dheerajpant (Sep 4, 2013)

Final Update : 
Today got my 600D  .

Had to Cancel the snapdeal order as the it was out of stock and they were asking me to wait for some more days.
Instead ordered it from Flipkart.

600D + Sony SDHC UHS-I 16GD card + one Lens Pen for 28265/-(beat that   ).

View attachment 12040

Thank you all for all you suggestions.


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## nac (Sep 4, 2013)

That's a nice deal you got from flipkart... 

Congrats and happy clicking...


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## sujoyp (Sep 5, 2013)

congrats...very nice deal


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## dheerajpant (Sep 7, 2013)

Thank you guys, since I got the camera didn't got much time to tinkr with it just some shots here and there(this is a problem with cities you are surrounded by buildings so not much to capture  ) but tomorrow would be entirely dedicated​to my 600D .


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## sujoyp (Sep 7, 2013)

he he he dont give us those old bahanas  .....every city have something historical, some lake some garden..if u find nothing then u can do numerous things inside house...table top photography...splash photography, smoke photography, etc 

soo enjoy whatever u like...have fun


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## izzikio_rage (Sep 7, 2013)

just read through this thread .... hell I even got quoted  .... congratulations dheeraj, looking forward to seeing your snaps (you do know about the photography and photo projects threads?)


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## pranav0091 (Sep 7, 2013)

Congrats Dheeraj, welcome


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## dheerajpant (Sep 9, 2013)

izzikio_rage said:


> just read through this thread .... hell I even got quoted  .... congratulations dheeraj, looking forward to seeing your snaps (you do know about the photography and photo projects threads?)



Thanks Izzikoi, yes I have seen that thread ans sure would be participating in that .



pranav0091 said:


> Congrats Dheeraj, welcome



Thanks Pranav.

I don't know whether I should start a seperate thread for this but for now I am clearing my doubts here alone  ,

I have seen some of your flickr pics and I can say that they are awesome(the colours reproduced are amazing).
I have some questions regarding this :
1)Whether those pics are out of the cameras(jpeg's) or do you do post-processing on them?
2)How much post processing do you do like to make them feel more sharp or do you give some dramatic effects.
3)Which softwares do you use?
Because I am not able to get those vivid colours just out of the box.
Thanks


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## pranav0091 (Sep 9, 2013)

dheerajpant said:


> Thanks Izzikoi, yes I have seen that thread ans sure would be participating in that .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh yes, there is Photoshop involved 

Reprodcing what I just wrote in the other thread:


pranav0091 said:


> My take on PP is that I'd do it as long as the image doesnt look unreal or fake (much like my opinion on women wearing makeup). PP is supposed to be like pickles - great when used in moderation, rubbish when its all you can find in an image.




I do use Photoshop/Picasa/Paint.net (In increasing order of frequency) and almost NEVER uplaod a pic until I have touched it up a bit.
In general this is what I do:

1) Shoot in jpeg at full resolution (I will hopefully eventually switch to RAW, but right now, I neither have the knowledge nor the skill)

2) Use 'levels' to remove the brightest 4-5 and the darkest 5-10 levels (to lose dynamic range trading it for more contrast)

3) Get the image and edit its color-curves to get better lower color-tones (I use a S shaped curve under paint.net to achieve this.)

4) Increase saturation/warmth to make it a tiny bit more than normal (Humans perceive the golden yellows to be very warm/welcoming/emotional. So the trick is to use that color to you advantage wheneve you can). Here is a primie example:
*farm8.staticflickr.com/7378/9497510738_49c55d52b8_c.jpg
IMG_4149e by pranav0091, on Flickr

5) Read, read and more read. And ask people. 

Step 2 is what brings out the colors. On the right pictures it makes a world of difference. It removes a layer of white haze and brings out strong colors. 

Start trying out Paint.Net. Its free, easy and super lightweight. If you get stuck at anything, just post here 

PS: Post processing is not about the amount of time you spend on an image, but how you choose to spend it. I for one, spend less than 5 minutes per image but do it compulsorily for every image i intend to showcase. And never ever let someone tell you that PPed images are less skilled than regular-untouched images. It takes skill/practise to get a good shot and good framing and no amount of ordinary editing can save a crappy shot. The whole point of getting a DSLR is to have access to highly-detailed images that you can use to process and not lose image data in the process. In my case I would have never been able to get those waterdrop images if it were not for the 600D. It needed a a lot of patience (only one in about 50 images of those were even worth having a second look) but then thats the trick - you show out only your best images (might mean you are able to showcase only one in a hundred, but thats fine - that one image makes it all worth the effort  )


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## dheerajpant (Sep 9, 2013)

Thanks Pranav,
Very well said.
Won't it be great if we could have a thread about PP(If you can start it and others who have more advance knowledge could contribute to it).
Reasons for asking you to start:
As you have started from scratch you know the difficulties starters face.
And most of the tuts online involve some degree of technical terms without stating their meanings.
So, if some sunny day you have some time you can start a thread it would be very helpful and in the meantime, do you have any places you visit that have some good easy to understand n00b proof tuts   .

Thanks again.


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## sujoyp (Sep 9, 2013)

@pranav yes very good idea  please document your secrets of PP in a thread soo that next time I can copy it step by step


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## pranav0091 (Sep 9, 2013)

Thanks 
I may start a thread , but these days I feel far too lazy to put up any effort 

But yeah, I may start a thread.


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## izzikio_rage (Sep 9, 2013)

request seconded .... would love to have a thread discussing the dark art of PP


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## nac (Sep 10, 2013)

If I remember correct, there was one before...


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## sujoyp (Sep 10, 2013)

yes there was one...but I didnt put anything valuble in it  ...I find it really difficult to explain PP ....I dont do anything  systematically , how will i explain ....my PP depends on what I am thinking at that time and my purpose of shot ....


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## izzikio_rage (Sep 10, 2013)

pranav0091 said:


> 5) Read, read and more read. And ask people.



Suggest some stuff to read, for example that book that Sujoy told  (photo projects) is pretty good. I also came across a bunch of videos by Bryan peterson - the perfect picture, which are pretty practical and very useful . So let's share more of this type of stuff in one of the threads 



sujoyp said:


> yes there was one...but I didnt put anything valuble in it  ...I find it really difficult to explain PP ....I dont do anything  systematically , how will i explain ....my PP depends on what I am thinking at that time and my purpose of shot ....



You don't have to give a step by step workflow, it's an art form not a factory manual  . But it'll atleast get us discussing new stuff in PP that most of us did not know. Like I recently found out that you can insert keywords, copyright details etc in lightroom only, that way no copy pasting when uploading to photo sharing sites. Also among the new learning is how to use lens profiles to correct lens errors when shooting in RAW. Would love to learn more stuff like this, I'm sure others would too.


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## sujoyp (Sep 10, 2013)

The digital photography book by scott kelby   is the most simple and straightforward book I have ever seen..a must read

ok start a thread and explain how to add copyright in lightroom ...but tell me in our camera there is a comment thing which adds a comment to every pic...isnt that a copyright prevention thing ...donno if it can be removed or not.


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## izzikio_rage (Sep 10, 2013)

Thread made, will drop in the copyright and keyword post soon. Pranav, Nac, sujoy and others, looking forward to some awesome post processing info.


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## dheerajpant (Sep 10, 2013)

Yes izzikio, the lens correction and sharpening feature are great in lightroom. I have just started exploring it and can say it has some seriously cool features. You can get amazing effects(For some I was able to get some eye popping colours but they turned out to be too dramatic to be real   ).


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## raja manuel (Sep 10, 2013)

pranav0091 said:


> 1) Shoot in jpeg at full resolution (I will hopefully eventually switch to RAW, but right now, I neither have the knowledge nor the skill)


What knowledge or skill do you think you lack to shoot in RAW, or process it? This is a serious question. I have come across many people who express similar views and I am baffled. Except for the first 3-4 photos everything else from my 600D has been in RAW.
I am also curious to know why you use so many programs to do the kind of post-processing that you do. DPP comes free with Canon and does everything you say you do, and a lot more besides. Have you tried shooting in RAW and processing in DPP?


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## pranav0091 (Sep 10, 2013)

For some reason I havent bothered to dig into, the high-ISO RAW shots from my 600D are significantly noisier than the Jpegs (in-camera long shutter noise reduction enabled for JPEGs). A cursory glance showed me no significant easily visible advantage that the RAW had over JPEGs in this particular case (High ISO, longer shutter open periods). On the contrary if I can get a JPEG that looks better than the corresponding RAW, I have no real reason ATM to switch to RAW and then use PP to get rid of the noise. The noise was of the chroma type and it was significant.

The reason why I use Paint.net is because I am used to it and its runs like a charm with negligible startup time on any system. Picasa if I ONLY feel like fiddling the color temperature or straightening (For these things, its the fastest application and I use it as my default viewer, so its always available). PS (very very rare) if I have some more work to do that needs brushes.

I tried DPP a couple of times, found it pretty powerful, but a bit clumsy to use. And I didnt really need anything more than Paint.NET/Picasa for the editing I do on my images. I prefer having just the right tool for the little editing I do.
And the added advantage is that Picasa automatically makes a backup when you edit.


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## sujoyp (Sep 10, 2013)

I too dont shoot in RAW ...dont like the hassle to add noise reduction, colors, sharpness, exposure then get a pic that can be edited furthur ....too much hassel


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## izzikio_rage (Sep 11, 2013)

The main advantage of shooting raw is that you have more control over the processing that is normally done by the cam. I have the same issue that Raws are much noisier than the jpeg, but that is only because the camera automatically runs a noise reduction, color correction and saturation process on them when making a jpeg. I would rather do this myself on an image by image basis rather than a one size fits all. 

Also raw files generally have a lot more color depth, 12bits compared to the 8 of a jpeg (will confirm the numbers), all that info is lost by the cam if a jpeg is made. And it can make all the difference when shooting a scene with a high range. 

So raw is not necessary, i wouldn't want to process all images from a home function for example, but for artistic shots, it may be worth the effort.


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## sujoyp (Sep 11, 2013)

hmm yes u are right...for artistic shots its worth ...I will try next time....the issue i faced was when going to a shooting trip for birding and landscape i used to shoot around 500 shots...then out of that i try to edit around 50 ....now editing RAW 50 files is a very big work ...it will take lots of time...then maybe I will just create a RAW conversion profile and use it for every pic ...which will be similar to jpeg conversion by DSLR.


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## pranav0091 (Sep 11, 2013)

izzikio_rage said:


> So raw is not necessary, i wouldn't want to process all images from a home function for example, but for artistic shots, it may be worth the effort.



This. This is pecisely what I'm saying


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## nac (Sep 11, 2013)

Camera's jpeg is much better than comparing RAW images I process. And my camera is already amazingly slow, writing one image will take about 5 seconds (if I shoot RAW) and if I am using flash I can take a nap  before readying for next shot.

I try out of interest once in a while, but not all the time.


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## sujoyp (Sep 11, 2013)

artistic is fine...we take 10 shots and select 2 ...what about birding??  200-300 shots and edit 50 ???


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## dheerajpant (Sep 11, 2013)

sujoyp said:


> hmm yes u are right...for artistic shots its worth ...I will try next time....the issue i faced was when going to a shooting trip for birding and landscape i used to shoot around 500 shots...then out of that i try to edit around 50 ....now editing RAW 50 files is a very big work ...it will take lots of time...then maybe I will just create a RAW conversion profile and use it for every pic ...which will be similar to jpeg conversion by DSLR.




For this reason alone I shoot in RAW+jpeg format so that I have to process only those I desire for the rest jpegs would doo   .


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## sujoyp (Sep 11, 2013)

but dheeraj then it takes more space and more time to save...and burst speed will reduce ...not always good


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## dheerajpant (Sep 11, 2013)

sujoyp said:


> but dheeraj then it takes more space and more time to save...and burst speed will reduce ...not always good



True,

My 16GB card shows ~550 shots with this mode and yes definitely it would have an impact on burst mode(but I don't take burst modes that frequently) and if I have to I will switch to jpeg.


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## izzikio_rage (Sep 11, 2013)

nac said:


> Camera's jpeg is much better than comparing RAW images I process



This was my perception too initially (still is for a lot of shots). But if try shooting RAW in some sunset shots, or even a few night shots (light trails and such) and spend some time pushing the curves, increasing saturation and all in some PP software. You'll enjoy the results. Again, it's not a magic substitute that'll suddenly make bad shots amazing, but for things like sunset/sunrise shots you'll get almost HDR like results without the effort of shooting 3 shots, combining them and then PPing them. 



sujoyp said:


> but dheeraj then it takes more space and more time to save...and burst speed will reduce ...not always good



I cry over this too, my Raw files are 16/17 MB vs a 2/3 MB jpeg. but found a very strange thing. I PPed some of the RAW files and saved them to Jpeg at the highest quality. The resulting file is around 7 to 9 MB. So is my camera deleting 4 Mb of info from every jpeg it saves, what is the quality of the jpeg that it saves (telling me standard and fine and super fine still can't allow me to match it to the numerical value). That is one of the reasons I started shooting RAW


Guys can we shift the PP discussion to the PP thread *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/cameras-c...-images-final-step-getting-awesome-click.html It's a bit hard to continue it in two threads and feels cheap to copy paste the same info into two threads.


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## dheerajpant (Sep 11, 2013)

izzikio_rage said:


> Guys can we shift the PP discussion to the PP thread *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/cameras-c...-images-final-step-getting-awesome-click.html It's a bit hard to continue it in two threads and feels cheap to copy paste the same info into two threads.



Izzikio thanks for this thread didn't noticed it, now I would do all the PPing related discussion there.


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## raja manuel (Sep 11, 2013)

pranav0091 said:


> For some reason I havent bothered to dig into, the high-ISO RAW shots from my 600D are significantly noisier than the Jpegs (in-camera long shutter noise reduction enabled for JPEGs). A cursory glance showed me no significant easily visible advantage that the RAW had over JPEGs in this particular case (High ISO, longer shutter open periods). On the contrary if I can get a JPEG that looks better than the corresponding RAW, I have no real reason ATM to switch to RAW and then use PP to get rid of the noise. The noise was of the chroma type and it was significant.



As izzikio_rage said, the reason for this is the extensive post-processing that happens in camera. And again as he said (I seem to agree with him a lot) it makes more sense to decide the post processing parameters yourself rather than let the camera decide for you. If you don't want to start from scratch there is a very easy workaround for DPP users. Load the RAW image in DPP, the use the picture style option to choose whichever picture style you would have used in camera and you immediately get the RAW file processed exactly like the JPEG in your camera. You can now use this as a starting point to tweak the file further, with all the latitude that RAW allows. 



izzikio_rage said:


> Also raw files generally have a lot more color depth, 12bits compared to the 8 of a jpeg (will confirm the numbers), all that info is lost by the cam if a jpeg is made. And it can make all the difference when shooting a scene with a high range.


And I agree with him (again). I very often find myself hitting the limits of JPEG bit depth. I'm surprised that others aren't as frustrated as I am working with JPEGs.



sujoyp said:


> maybe I will just create a RAW conversion profile and use it for every pic ...which will be similar to jpeg conversion by DSLR.


Only if you set up a JPEG profile in your camera that is perfect for the shooting conditions. If not, getting the RAW settings just right in one file and running a batch process with that recipe on a bunch of files will yield significantly differnt results to out-of-camera JPEGs.



dheerajpant said:


> For this reason alone I shoot in RAW+jpeg format so that I have to process only those I desire for the rest jpegs would doo .


The RAW files have a JPEG file embedded in them so RAW+JPEG is a bit redundant unless you have a burning need to send the files out directly after shooting, like being the first to upload your pics to Facebook or something like that.



sujoyp said:


> and burst speed will reduce


I suspect that is to do with the speed of the memory card. The burst slows because the buffer is full.


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