# "The Mac has won"



## aryayush (Nov 9, 2007)

Once and for all, proof that Macs are cheaper than PCs

*Let's put to rest the myth that an Apple computer will set you back more than a Windows PC. In fact, it'll cost you less.

By Farhad Manjoo*

*images.salon.com/tech/machinist/feature/2007/11/07/mac_price/cover.jpg

It's time to buy an Apple computer. Indeed, it's been that time for the past five years, at least, but only now, slowly, are people waking up to this fact. Thanks to Apple's relentless flash -- the John Hodgman ads, the iPods, the iPhones -- its Macintosh business is now in league with that of the biggest PC companies in the world. Everyone who's used it agrees that Leopard, the operating system that Apple released late last month, is to its chief rival, Microsoft's Windows Vista, roughly as Richard Wagner is to Richard Marx. This simple truth is dawning: If we forget about computer-industry network effects and monopolistic business practices, if we forget Apple's various ancient missteps -- if we're going just by what's better -- the ages-old Mac-vs.-PC debate is over. Long over. Yell it from the rooftops: The Mac has won.

And yet, you're not buying an Apple computer. Most of the world isn't. There is probably a single overwhelming reason you're clinging to Windows. Macs are expensive. This is what you've been told, and in your research, it's seemed to check out. If they acknowledge it at all, Mac fans will rationalize the higher prices by noting that you're paying for quality. Buying a Mac, folks say, is like buying a BMW (Apple CEO Steve Jobs regularly compares the Mac's market share with that of German luxury cars). But what if you don't want the BMW of PCs? What if you can only afford a Chevrolet? Read more...

[Via Salon]


I have to say that I don't necessarily agree with every thing mentioned in this article, specially in the Indian context, but he does make some very valid points.


----------



## goobimama (Nov 9, 2007)

The thing is in India, no one pays for the OS, Antivirus and anti spyware apps so the POS machines turn out to be a lot cheaper than an iMac costing say 64k...


----------



## a_k_s_h_a_y (Nov 9, 2007)

hey are sure ?? be sure for INDIA alright.. that they are of same cost as that of a genuine win vista installed PC
it would be much better if they cost less then a pirated vista PC

i can recommend a mac to my neighborhood girls and home users ... they will be impressed later... about the MAC and buy one for my home use !!!!!

the day MACs Replace Windows and PC in banks, shops, servers, work stations, schools and colleges, engineering companies,* research labs * etc is the day MAC wins not the day when few thousand people got a MAC for Home use...!!

it would be great if some one neutral side writes these stuff..
i just hate articles written by windows and mac fan boys !


----------



## goobimama (Nov 9, 2007)

> it would be much better if they cost less then a pirated vista PC


Nice.... nice... maybe next thing they should throw in some electronic foot-massagers  in it as well.

If someone writes positive about the mac, he's a fanboy.
If someone writes negative, he's a mac hater.


----------



## RCuber (Nov 9, 2007)

goobimama said:
			
		

> The thing is in India, no one pays for the OS, Antivirus and anti spyware apps so the POS machines turn out to be a lot cheaper than an iMac costing say 64k...


Actually I have seen many people buying/asking where to buy antivirus... One of my uncle has asked about QuickHeal AV.


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Nov 9, 2007)

@Aryayush , dude if you could post some relevant articles rather than just linking to 'enthusiastic' n 'revolutionary' blog posts n Mac Blogs it'd be much much better .

btw , Dell sells a Windows PC with 19" LCD Monitor + Core 2 Duo Proccy + Windows Vista Home Premium for 30k now that's a lot less than 64k that the Mac costs .

Even the dell XPS Series , which includes a Core 2 *Quad* Processor , 2 GB RAM , 20" Widescreen LCD Monitor + Windows Vista Home Premium + 256 MB ATI Radeon HT 2600 XT costs *Rs 54,423* . how's that !

*i.dell.com/images/global/products/xpsdt/xps420_lcd.jpg*i.dell.com/images/global/products/xpsdt/xps420_front.jpg

*farm3.static.flickr.com/2356/1932839509_ab0cc4615a_o.jpg

Dell India XPS 420 Product Page


----------



## a_k_s_h_a_y (Nov 9, 2007)

+1 to above

i guess i will do much better staying off these threads as i had done till now no point as 
*
these people have little or NO knowledge about Computing and applications !! *and come here and talk about BEST OS !  and PC and MAC war !

and only show off mac and windows fight...!! and simply insult linux also !

they use the computer for basic stuff like internet and doing some drawing ! and these people talking about best os makes no sense at all !! and also comparing PC and MAC... !

oh yes MAC is indeed Best OS for them .. for people with basic stuff  ! and for their uses ! and for my use when i am totally bored !

and they must know that for every purpose an OS excels .. so better learn to respect other technologies !!


----------



## Gigacore (Nov 9, 2007)

Well *before* buying an *apple*, please *make sure* u have a *good refrigerator*, coz it gets *rotten* very soon!


----------



## Hitboxx (Nov 9, 2007)

No thanks I'll go with a custom home grown tuner than a factory BMW.


----------



## RCuber (Nov 9, 2007)

Hey wait .. what are the softwares available for OS X ? I know there is photoshop and finalcut .. even Know many movie production companies use mac for their animation and stuff.. ( Pixar Animations ) .. But for the common man what are the applications available.


----------



## aryayush (Nov 9, 2007)

a_k_s_h_a_y said:
			
		

> the day MACs Replace Windows and PC in banks, shops, servers, work stations, schools and colleges, engineering companies,* research labs * etc is the day MAC wins not the day when few thousand people got a MAC for Home use...!!


The article was written in plain English. Here's a quote:





> if we're going just by what's better -- the ages-old Mac-vs.-PC debate is over. Long over. Yell it from the rooftops: The Mac has won.


The Mac has won because it is better. That's what the author is saying. It has nothing whatsoever to do with market share which, let me tell you straight up, Apple is never going to beat Microsoft at because they don't intend to. Apple has a standard; Microsoft doesn't.



			
				Charan said:
			
		

> Hey wait .. what are the softwares available for OS X ? I know there is photoshop and finalcut .. even Know many movie production companies use mac for their animation and stuff.. ( Pixar Animations ) .. But for the common man what are the applications available.


You get what you need and you get stuff that is any day better than their counterparts on Windows. A very good example is Delicious Library. If you can find me one good cataloguing applications on Windows that comes anywhere close to Delicious Library, Windows will get my vote. Or, for that matter, find me an RSS reader with the calibre of Mac-only clients such as NewsFire and NetNewsWire.

The applications of Mac OS X, coupled with the user interface, is what makes it so much better than Windows. Plus, it runs Windows and Linux applications too if the need arises.

And that is why I find it surprising that people still don't see that a Mac is the only computer a person should buy.


----------



## Garbage (Nov 9, 2007)

@ Charan,

There are many applications available for Mac too.
Many Open Source applications u can compile for Mac too.
Even most of the printers come with Windows AND Mac Drivers. 
M$ office is having a version for Mac OS.

What else u want ??


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Nov 9, 2007)

shirish_nagar said:
			
		

> @ Charan,
> 
> There are many applications available for Mac too.
> Many Open Source applications u can compile for Mac too.
> ...


Lower Price !

coz we're talking of Mac here as a whole package , not just the OS . so Price and hardware does also count .


----------



## infra_red_dude (Nov 9, 2007)

^^^ I think Charan asked about software and shirish replied wid the list/category of software available for Mac OS.

I didn't know "Lower Price" was a new software. What does it do???!


----------



## goobimama (Nov 9, 2007)

While that dell sure looks good, with the snazzy cabinet et all, the price will still lurk around maybe 58-60k including tax. Add to that antivirus (yeah I know there is are free ones), and it comes up to around the same as the iMac. The dell also gives you more customisation and has a faster processor, but it doesn't come in a sleek *silent* enclosure, OS X and a cigarette lighter.

My point being, the iMac isn't all that expensive as it is seen to be.


----------



## infra_red_dude (Nov 9, 2007)

I second the feeling that Macs are somewhat overpriced. You definitely pay a premium for the Apple logo compared to a non-Apple PC of similar specs + costliest windows OS + security software. However, what appeals me is that the whole damn thing is squeezed in behind the LCD!


----------



## goobimama (Nov 9, 2007)

Btw, if there is one thing that keeps me hooked to OS X, it is the software. There tons of amazing apps which one can only dream about using on Windows or wherever else.


----------



## azzu (Nov 9, 2007)

Gigacore said:
			
		

> Well *before* buying an *apple*, please *make sure* u have a *good refrigerator*, coz it gets *rotten* very soon!



Great sense of humor at a Xcellent time


----------



## DigitalDude (Nov 9, 2007)

I dont want mac or windows or linux or bill or steve to win...

I want the CONSUMER TO WIN... dont become brand shills... if you like a product use it and STFU... if you dont like a product dont use it and STFU

*www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant


----------



## RCuber (Nov 9, 2007)

aryayush said:
			
		

> You get what you need and you get stuff that is any day better than their counterparts on Windows. A very good example is Delicious Library. If you can find me one good cataloguing applications on Windows that comes anywhere close to Delicious Library, Windows will get my vote. Or, for that matter, find me an RSS reader with the calibre of Mac-only clients such as NewsFire and NetNewsWire.



Firstly.. Im not just a windows user I also use linux as well as I am a apple customer. 

Delecious Library: I was searching for an library software and my dream software is mac only .. you got my vote for Delicious Library arya .. 

I am not asking which one is better.. I just want to know what are the basic applications just to get my work done.. for example I use Opera for everything .. for chat, for mail (pop and imap), downloads, RSS etc etc.. so there is no need for me to use another application for the other tasks. 



> The applications of Mac OS X, coupled with the user interface, is what makes it so much better than Windows. Plus, it runs Windows and Linux applications too if the need arises.



User Interface for me is secondary.. I used Aero and Compiz-fuzion for just 2 days.. later disabled both .. aka fun was over. Yea it runs windows and not to forget I have to either buy a new copy of windows or trash my current system and transfer the licence to the mac. and not to forget my Visual Studio licence.. I dont know if VS licence allows me move it from one system to another. 



> And that is why I find it surprising that people still don't see that a Mac is the only computer a person should buy.



this is not correct.. It depends if it ones needs or not.. for a first time PC user this can be a good investment .. but not for those people who are on other OS/hardware.. 

You just cannot ask them  to trash their system and buy a iMac.. cause they have already paid for the software and hardware they are using.. 

Yea you can say "the Mac has won" but its the customer who has lost.

@sirish yea there are software.. But the only thing I cant do is do a trial run of OS X .. which I can do in Vista as well as Linux On my current hardware..


----------



## mehulved (Nov 9, 2007)

infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> I second the feeling that Macs are somewhat overpriced. You definitely pay a premium for the Apple logo compared to a non-Apple PC of similar specs + costliest windows OS + security software. However, what appeals me is that the whole damn thing is squeezed in behind the LCD!


 And you pay for after sales service too. People never take service and genuine softwares into account when buying a computer. Most of them hardly even look at the differences in hardware. For them a 2GHz celeron would be better than a 1.66GHz C2D cos simply 2GHz >1.66GHz. And it creates a myth that apple with better quality hardware, better after sales service and original software is way more costlier. All factors taken into account, you can hardly call mac more expensive than a *branded* PC or laptop.
The decision depends upon your use eg. softwares you need, whether you'd like easy upgradibilty of hardware, etc.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> And that is why I find it surprising that people still don't see that a Mac is the only computer a person should buy.


 No. I would any day prefer an assembled PC cos it gives me a much better choice of hardware components that I can put in and costs cheaper too. And I needn't worry about cost of OS.
You need to see the other side too before making the statement. The decision will vary a lot depending on personal preferences and usage pattern.


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Nov 10, 2007)

mehulved said:
			
		

> And you pay for after sales service too. People never take service and genuine softwares into account when buying a computer. Most of them hardly even look at the differences in hardware. For them a 2GHz celeron would be better than a 1.66GHz C2D cos simply 2GHz >1.66GHz. And it creates a myth that apple with better quality hardware, better after sales service and original software is way more costlier. All factors taken into account, you can hardly call mac more expensive than a *branded* PC or laptop.
> The decision depends upon your use eg. softwares you need, whether you'd like easy upgradibilty of hardware, etc.


 Well you get After Sales Service with Most Branded Computers(i've used services of Dell n HP) .

Also , for the price of a Mac you can very well buy a much more powerful branded PC from any good manufacturer . So the notion that Macs are costlier is certainly true .

Also , how can you prove that Apple has better after sales aervice than any other PC Assembler(HP,Dell,anyone) , after all , all these companies have cal centres here in India only(yes even Apple , which overcharges users for 'premium' services)

Take an example here , my friend's iPod Nano recently died(battery went kaput) , he took the iPod to Authorized Apple Center here in lko , these dudes didn't even have a clue that you can get the iPod battery changed( for a price , if warranty is over ) , they just kept giving vague answers n after half n hour they said said we cannot help you , you will have to visit the Delhi Service Center on your own expense n they wil tell you what to do ! 

It's only an allusion Apple has created that their products are better .
(i too own an iPod Nano though , n i'll agree it has an excellent build quality , but we're talking of Macs here n not iPods )


----------



## gxsaurav (Nov 10, 2007)

arya, come out of the "Feel Good factor" ok, & face the truth that apple is like any other PC company out there.


----------



## goobimama (Nov 10, 2007)

> User Interface for me is secondary.. I used Aero and Compiz-fuzion for just 2 days.. later disabled both .. aka fun was over. Yea it runs windows and not to forget I have to either buy a new copy of windows or trash my current system and transfer the licence to the mac. and not to forget my Visual Studio licence.. I dont know if VS licence allows me move it from one system to another.


User interface is primary! And I'm not talking about eye candy-istic stuff like wobbly windows. I'm talking about interfaces that actually make working easier. Eg: When you hide a photo in iPhoto, it fades out and the other photos move right into position animated. It's not only 'cool', but it actually shows you what is actually going on. Trying this on ten randomly selected photos just shows what the power of excellent user interface is. 

@zeerash: I don't know what Apple service you are talking about, but the "Authorised service centres", the ones which have to go through a half-yearly test to see that they are fit for service, are amazing. Especially the one in Goa. It's like a Genius bar out there. I recently got my DVD writer replaced because a DVD was stuck in it within 3 days.



> No. I would any day prefer an assembled PC cos it gives me a much better choice of hardware components that I can put in and costs cheaper too. And I needn't worry about cost of OS.


While I agree there should be a Mac Pro, the fact of the matter is that Assembled machines just don't give me that piece of mind. The fans are loud, there's always some loose RAM or Hard drive cables, and there's a lot more cables to handle. I am so used to the iMac being silent, that whenever I'm next to a PC I feel really weird...like something is wrong in it. In the good ol' days when I liked to frequent the insides of my computer, the Mac would have tortured me. But since I've grown out of "taking care of" and grown into "using it", the all-in-one works best for me. But I do still agree, a cheaper Mac (minus) Pro would please a lot of fidgety geeks out there...


----------



## aryayush (Nov 10, 2007)

infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> I second the feeling that Macs are somewhat overpriced. You definitely pay a premium for the Apple logo compared to a non-Apple PC of similar specs + *costliest windows OS* + security software. However, what appeals me is that the whole damn thing is squeezed in behind the LCD!


This is the basic problem with such comparisons. You just add the cost of the "costliest windows OS" and then compare it to a Mac. But doesn't it count for something that even that "costliest windows OS" is puny when compared to Mac OS X and the value that the iLife '08 suite adds to it. Can you put a value to finally being free of viruses, not having to spring clean your operating system every few months, not having to re-install the damn thing again and again? These are very important intangible benefits that people simply overlook in these direct specs-to-price based comparisons.



			
				goobimama said:
			
		

> Btw, if there is one thing that keeps me hooked to OS X, it is the software. There tons of amazing apps which one can only dream about using on Windows or wherever else.


Exactly. Ask any Mac user. A Windows user can only dream about the kind of applications we enjoy on Mac OS X. And now, with Core Animation in the fray, the best is yet to come. 



			
				azzu said:
			
		

> Great sense of humor at a Xcellent time


The only thing I hate more than a poor sense of humour is when someone comes along and starts praising it. It's just a pet peeve.



			
				Charan said:
			
		

> I am not asking which one is better.. I just want to know what are the basic applications just to get my work done.. for example I use Opera for everything .. for chat, for mail (pop and imap), downloads, RSS etc etc.. so there is no need for me to use another application for the other tasks.


So, Opera is there. But once you switch to a Mac and really decide to make a conscious effort to use the system as it is supposed to be used - instead of forcing it to work more like Windows, which is what you are used to and which is unfortunately what most newbies try to do - you'll realise that the combination of NewsFire, iChat and Safari works much better than the all-in-one Opera with a crappy user interface. (Make no mistake, I love Opera on Windows but on a Mac, the Windows-like user interface just plain sucks.)



			
				Charan said:
			
		

> User Interface for me is secondary.. I used Aero and Compiz-fuzion for just 2 days.. later disabled both .. aka fun was over.


I used to say the exact same thing about a year and a half ago. And then I switched. You just cannot see it from the other side of the fence...



			
				Charan said:
			
		

> Yea it runs windows


I was not talking about that. Mac OS X can run Windows applications. Not the whole of Windows; just the applications. Sounds surprising? It is true. I use µTorrent on my Mac but I don't have Windows installed. 



			
				Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> how can you prove that Apple has better after sales aervice than any other PC Assembler


Some things just don't need proving. It is an accepted fact that Apple has the best customer service and support system in place compared to all other technology companies. For example: They are the only company I know who have a toll free support number.

Visit this thread.


----------



## RCuber (Nov 10, 2007)

@goobi and arya.. you said your points.. I accept those.. I cannot say more till I use a MAC and OS X .. Only thing which make me look away from mac is the pricetag.. 

@arya.. you are using crossover mac to run utorrent  and

You are the only guy reffering Opera as crappy ( second time I guess ) !!! and this was the reason which caused me not to look into safari for windows anymore..


----------



## Gigacore (Nov 10, 2007)

Opera $ucks?

I agree, but its wayy better than $afari. what a explorer man... IE is also better than that.. pheww


----------



## aryayush (Nov 10, 2007)

Charan said:
			
		

> You are the only guy reffering Opera as crappy ( second time I guess ) !!!


I'll say this a hundred times if you want me to. It's the truth.

I was the biggest proponent of Opera on Windows. Visit old browser war threads in the forum itself and you'll see which browser I recommended in every single post. I've used Opera exclusively for three years on Windows. When I used to go to Sify iWays, I used to download and install Opera first and then browse the Internet. I also use the latest beta of Opera Mini on my cellphone. In short, I am one of the biggest fans ever of Opera.

But if it sucks on the Mac, then I won't hide it from anyone. It does. I was so happy when I'd learnt that I would be able to keep using Opera even after switching to the Mac because Safari 2 just plain sucked, IMHO. I even did use it for quite a while. But it sticks out as a sore thumb amidst all the native applications on Mac OS X. The close buttons on the tabs, unlike every single other application on Mac OS X, are on the right side, the form buttons look like they're straight out of Windows, there are absolutely no animations whatsoever in the entire interface, the keyboard shortcuts are completely different from all other Mac OS X browsers... the list just goes on and on.

There are themes, yes. There are some themes which do an amazingly good job of making Opera look like Safari but that is where the point that I've been trying to make for the past several months and which goobimama stressed upon in his previous post comes in - the user interface is not just about how it looks, it is about how it works. These skins can make Opera look like a native application, but they cannot make it behave like one.

So, basically, Opera on the Mac sucks. The combination of Safari, Mail, iChat, Transmission, etc. is way better. There is absolutely no comparison whatsoever. Like I said, you've got to be a Mac user to know this. You just cannot see it from the other side of the fence.


----------



## Kenshin (Nov 10, 2007)

I want applications to program my microcontrollers directly thru the SPI interface...and electronics workbenches and stuff....apps like codevision and all and preferably free ones coz most of AVR stuff is free atleast on windows.....tats the reason most guys in my class are avoidin macs..


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Nov 10, 2007)

aryayush said:
			
		

> They are the only company I know who have a toll free support number.


 Microsoft India's Toll Free Support Number is 1800 1111 00


----------



## Gigacore (Nov 10, 2007)

LOL... Microsoft is so huge, how can anyone say it has no toll free number in INDIA ?  
Please dont try to remain as a FROG in a WELL, come out and explore the world! Its HUGE! 

*OPEN UR  EYES  and SEE this!*

*farm3.static.flickr.com/2014/1943926792_1a38eb1b16_o.jpg

Source


----------



## Ankur Gupta (Nov 10, 2007)

Almost every company has its toll-free number..
Leave alone tech companies like HP,Dell etc...Even Home appliances companies like LG,Samsung all have their toll-free numbers which work all across India...
Also they have pretty good telephone customer support...
Also with companies like WD coming out with home pickup and delivery of faulty hard hard drives, you can't ask for more from them in terms of customer support, is it?


----------



## sakumar79 (Nov 10, 2007)

Many other companies too have toll-free service numbers - Acer, etc... The list in *teck.in/2006/09/useful-toll-free-numbers-of-india.html is worth checking out, but I give no assurances on their validity...

Arun


----------



## infra_red_dude (Nov 10, 2007)

@arya
I was not comparing the features/advantages etc. of "costliest Windows OS" I was saying that a PC wid similar specs + OS cost is still less than Mac. I never commented on the looks, stability, security etc. Just the pricing.

Do I need to comment on stability and security!!??


----------



## aryayush (Nov 11, 2007)

OK. I was wrong, I guess...  (about the toll free number thing)



			
				Gigacore said:
			
		

> LOL... Microsoft is so huge, how can anyone say it has no toll free number in INDIA ?
> Please dont try to remain as a FROG in a WELL, come out and explore the world! Its HUGE!
> 
> *OPEN UR  EYES  and SEE this!*
> ...


There was no real need for that. He said they have a toll free number. That was enough. 



			
				infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> @arya
> I was not comparing the features/advantages etc. of "costliest Windows OS" I was saying that a PC wid similar specs + OS cost is still less than Mac. I never commented on the looks, stability, security etc. Just the pricing.
> 
> Do I need to comment on stability and security!!??


No, you don't.


----------



## Gigacore (Nov 11, 2007)

^ Yeah i know, but just to clear u that the toll free number spans these many cities all over india..


----------



## DigitalDude (Nov 11, 2007)

I guess this would be Ballmer's reply 

*www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/11/1-18-07-ballmer.jpg


----------



## Gigacore (Nov 12, 2007)

^ man everytime i see this pic in the internet... i laugh like a mad.. thanks for posting.. i love to see him like that.. 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> So, basically, Opera on the Mac sucks.



My reply - Safari on Windows Sucks


----------



## aryayush (Nov 12, 2007)

1. It doesn't.

2. Who cares anyway! Definitely not me.


----------



## praka123 (Nov 12, 2007)

waaow!sure a devil in post no #37!


----------



## Gigacore (Nov 12, 2007)

@ praka... yeah..


----------



## rajasekharan (Nov 16, 2007)

i wish i could afford a mac to work in FUSION and SHAKE...


----------

