# How Microsoft lost the office file format battle



## Cyrus_the_virus (May 31, 2008)

*When MS announced that SP2 for Office 2007 would support ODF and not OOXML, it suffered defeat at its own hands 

*By Neil McAllister (InfoWorld) 30/05/2008 11:41:18

Score one for the good guys: Last week, Microsoft announced that not only would Office 2007 Service Pack 2 support the ODF (Open Document Format) standard, but the productivity suite would not offer support for the ISO standard version of Microsoft's own OOXML (Office Open XML) format until its next major version, release date unknown. 

The move is sure to please some customers, particularly in government agencies in the US and around the world, who have been clamoring for an open, standards-based document format. For Microsoft, however, it should be seen as nothing less than a defeat, after a protracted and often bitter rivalry between the competing document standards. 

How could OOXML have gone so wrong? If we take Microsoft at its word that its goals include greater interoperability and transparency, we can only chalk this disaster up to plain blundering. From its inception, OOXML has been a textbook example of how not to develop an open standard. 

There are two main ways to fail at the standards game: You can create software that handles documents in formats for which no true standards exist, or you can create a standard that exists only on paper and in committee, with no reference software implementation. Amazingly, for all its hype and bluster, with OOXML Microsoft has managed to do both. 

In the course of researching a recent article on next-generation Web technologies, I was given a firsthand look at how healthy standards processes work. Take, for example, Google's efforts to bring new features to the forthcoming version of the HTML standard. It began with Google Gears, a set of plug-ins that adds new capabilities, including local database storage, to the current generation of Web browsers. 

"You can take a look at the HTML 5 proposal that's being actively edited at the moment and you'll see that there's a database API like Gears has a database API," Dion Almaer, a developer advocate at Google, told me. "We very much want this to be part of the Web for everybody to use." 

Google is actively involved in the HTML 5 committees at the W3C, where it's helping to draft portions of the standard that reflect the Google Gears capabilities. In turn, as the standard evolves, so too will Gears. Compare that to how Microsoft began with closed, proprietary office file formats, then shoehorned them into XML versions that reflected neither prior art nor industry consensus. 

Similarly, Adobe has been working to improve ECMAScript, the standard upon which both ActionScript and JavaScript are based. "Programming 'in the large' has been a problem with untyped languages like JavaScript," says Ed Rowe, director of engineering for the Adobe AIR platform. "That's why Adobe has been working with [ECMA] on ECMAScript 4 ... to introduce concepts that are compatible with building large-scale applications." 

In essence, the ActionScript 3 engine found in Flash Player 9 is Adobe's implementation of where it believes ECMAScript is headed. By comparison, Microsoft implemented OOXML and then sent it off to committee, where it has since changed and evolved. Now, although Office 2007 claims to support OOXML, its implementation doesn't meet the published standard. 
The key point to recognize is that standardization must be a two-way street. Significantly, both Google Gears and Adobe's ECMAScript engine are open source. As a result, there is transparency and accountability for the standards at the implementation level, not just on paper.  

"If you look at standards that have been successful versus ones that haven't, in my view, uniformly it's whether or not they've actually been tested or whether they were just a bunch of vendors in a room trying to work out what to do," says Google's Almaer. 

Even ignoring the reported voting irregularities in the OOXML standardization process, it's clear that Microsoft's method simply isn't how it's done. By insisting on unilaterally creating the OOXML draft standard, then implementing it with proprietary, closed-source software, it has defeated the transparency it claims to want every step of the way, virtually dooming itself to failure. 

But there's one more point to recognize here. For all its success, HTML and its associated languages are hardly the poster children for standards compliance, either. Internet Explorer isn't the only culprit here; Firefox, Safari, and even Opera have all struggled to implement the published standards exactly. Rather than gloat, however, Microsoft should take this point as a lesson: Drafting and implementing a complex standard file format is very, very difficult. In fact, it's far too difficult for even Microsoft to do on its own. 

Here's looking forward to Office 2007 Service Pack 2 and ODF.

*Source*


----------



## victor_rambo (May 31, 2008)

Now a days, most of the anti-microsoft news is written by biased people. 1 in 3 linux article propagates that microsoft is bad. Well, it actually isn't so bad as they make it look.


----------



## Cyrus_the_virus (May 31, 2008)

rohan_shenoy said:


> Well, it actually *isn't so bad* as they make it look.



So, you do agree it's bad


----------



## victor_rambo (May 31, 2008)

Ya, it does have shortcomings, but thats is no reason to badmouth it as 'Winblows' or 'M$aft' or whatever.........For me.........Windows Rocks!


----------



## desiibond (May 31, 2008)

^^LOL. Linux started supporting FAT file system, did that mean that linux accepted defeat
Linux started developing wine to support designed-for-windows s/w's, did that mean that linux accepted defeat?

MS providing support for OOF and OOXML is not coz they accepted defeat. It's because they want to grab those linux users who are using openoffice etc for open source formats. Remember, they still have 99% desktop OS market share. They need not accept defeat. They will go on and on and on.


----------



## victor_rambo (May 31, 2008)

Edited :d


----------



## desiibond (May 31, 2008)

^^Sorry buddy. That lol was for the article. I am strictly against that article.


----------



## sourav123 (May 31, 2008)

desiibond said:


> ^^LOL. Linux started supporting FAT file system, did that mean that linux accepted defeat
> Linux started developing wine to support designed-for-windows s/w's, did that mean that linux accepted defeat?
> 
> MS providing support for OOF and OOXML is not coz they accepted defeat. It's because they want to grab those linux users who are using openoffice etc for open source formats. Remember, they still have 99% desktop OS market share. They need not accept defeat. They will go on and on and on.



If MS only intends to get those OOo users by supporting ODF, then it should lower the pricing of MS Office. OOs is completely free and why on earth will somebody pay a fortune to get a software which does the same thing as OOo.

I think its bit of an eyewash from MS. Everybody knows what happened during the ISO voting. All horse-trading from MS.


----------



## desiibond (May 31, 2008)

the same reason why people are paying so much for windows.


----------



## Cyrus_the_virus (May 31, 2008)

desiibond said:


> ^^LOL. Linux started supporting FAT file system, did that mean that linux accepted defeat
> Linux started developing wine to support designed-for-windows s/w's, did that mean that linux accepted defeat?
> 
> MS providing support for OOF and OOXML is not coz they accepted defeat. It's because they want to grab those linux users who are using openoffice etc for open source formats. Remember, they still have 99% desktop OS market share. They need not accept defeat. They will go on and on and on.



Mate, the real reason is pretty much the same. They tried to get an ISO for a standard even they themselves could not implement, there is no other standard in the history of technology that doesn't have a working example even after getting intial ISO acceptance.

ODF was implemented because of extreme pressure by MS office users as Microsoft said. They couldn't implement OOXML and pressure was mounting on them by their users to implement an open standard and they had to do ODF.

Even ISO has not released the final document specification within the 30day appeals period which means, no one on earth knows what is the final format that everyone blindly voted for at ISO  not even Microsoft knows what changes need to be made. They had to cover this up and take away some attention and they did that by announcing implementation of ODF.

Bill Gates who would kill himself rather than stepping down for competitors. Unless it's desperate, he would have never allowed this to happen. It's a loss for MS anyways because now, lesser people are going to use MS Office as people can use free softwares for their daily Office work and send documents in ODF to anyone in the world as ODF is now being implemented in MS Office. No one needs to stick to MSOffice now just because their client uses it or because your manager cannot open files not created in MSOffice. So, this is not a win situation for Microsoft. After the giant OOXML scandals, they were under pressure for a real form for OOXML which they themselves couldn't implement, and they had to give up something to atleast try to keep the existing users of Office going.


----------



## sourav123 (May 31, 2008)

desiibond said:


> the same reason why people are paying so much for windows.



One reason for this is Windows comes pre installed with a lot of machines. But its not the same with OOo or MS Office (mostly). Besides OOo runs without a hitch on Windows. Even considering the cost, for an average home user, MS Office costs a fortune. Do you think all those people using MS Office has paid for it? 99% of them are using pirated copies. As MS comes down hard on piracy, they will now switch to OOo. Now MS will kill itself. 

Also, for other non profit organisations and governments, it makes sense to go for OOo, to save cost. And indeed this is what most are doing. So, in the end, only the private companies, will be the only ones using MS Office and MS knows that they will expect to have ODF compatibility. So, the announcement.


----------



## praka123 (May 31, 2008)

well, this is NO WAY a biased article.it just says what is reality.

well,reg M$ or M$haft -it is to just show my hate for this monopoly.but not towards poor scapegoats called window$ users 

not biased.I dont want to kill anyone for using windows.but want to let them know how better if we move all together to Open Source,Open Standard rather than sticking with a dead horse(vi$ta?  )


----------



## gary4gar (Jun 1, 2008)

I don't think MS is defeated here. Infact its good that a company listens to demands of its customer and makes changes according to their needs.

A good move IMO, It would help resolve Document Incompatibility prevailing in Industry.


----------



## dheeraj_kumar (Jun 1, 2008)

^^ That is not the first. MS has lost several legal battles regarding intellectual laws, and have paid several bil as compensation. I dont have the sources atm, but I think it was CNET where I read about it.


----------



## kumarmohit (Jun 1, 2008)

Did someone say MS lost?
I dont think so. Infact they would end up making more moolah by selling more copies of Office 2007 in comparison to what they have been selling until now!

BTW How many people here smell - 'Embrace, Extend... Extinguish'


----------



## Cyrus_the_virus (Jun 1, 2008)

kumarmohit said:


> BTW How many people here smell - 'Embrace, Extend... Extinguish'



I smell... 'Embrace, Extend... Self Destruct' 

You see, general public is getting smarter, they are simply not going to start wasting a fortune to make ODF files when the alternate is so easily available for free. It's not what it was 5 years ago. It's different. People have become more knowledgeable and the worthwhile choices have grown considerably.


----------



## iMav (Jun 1, 2008)

The article is hilarious, the comments here by some members are without even reading what the article is, the title is sensational to get hits.


----------



## chandru.in (Jun 1, 2008)

desiibond said:


> MS providing support for OOF and OOXML is not coz they accepted defeat.



If MS provided support for both ODF and OOXML, then what you say may be true.

But it said it cannot implement OOXML till 2012.  Now that is their acceptance of defeat with OOXML.


----------



## kumarmohit (Jun 1, 2008)

Cyrus_the_virus said:


> I smell... 'Embrace, Extend... Self Destruct'
> 
> You see, general public is getting smarter, they are simply not going to start wasting a fortune to make ODF files when the alternate is so easily available for free. It's not what it was 5 years ago. It's different. People have become more knowledgeable and the worthwhile choices have grown considerably.



Joking???

How many people, who are not into computers even know about open office, leave alone use it?

I agree that ppl are getting smarter but the number of computer users is growing waaay faster in comparison than the number of people getting informed about such things. The Self Destruct' part is high optimism, Going by the realities IMHO this would not happen for atleast next quarter of a century.


----------



## Cyrus_the_virus (Jun 1, 2008)

kumarmohit said:


> Going by the realities IMHO this would not happen for atleast *next quarter of a century*.



Now, that's *optimism*. Much more than what I had


----------



## iMav (Jun 1, 2008)

I wonder releasing the NTFS patch for Linux was acceptance of defeat by Linux


----------



## victor_rambo (Jun 1, 2008)

One thing which I don't like about aggressive OSS supporters is that they leave no opportunity to badmouth  Microsoft. Every blog post posts hatred and cons of Microsoft. It looks very petty. I often feel that some bloggers blog not to propagate open source but to vent out their anger at Microsoft. This looks so petty that no average person will consider open source seriously. For them, these OSS guys are 'just a bunch of frustrated fanboys'. MS never badmouths open-source communities, whereas some OSS users just live to badmouth MS. 


And about OpenOffice, it is not comparable to MS office. MS office has a great deal of features.

Has anyone seen the way Praka decorates his posts with 'M$haft' or 'winblows'

Remember, every average user, unaware of open source, has a great subconscious feeling of respect to the software he uses, which happens to be a Microsoft  product in majority of the cases. He is very happy and satisfied. And one day, he logs on to a forum on to find some people saying that 'Windows is crap'. He will never accept that 'Windows is crap' because Windows has been satisfying him. This is where he develops a defensive attitude towards the fanboys and so whatever these fanboys say will again be subconsciously 'rejected' by the average user. Along with, it also spoils the attitude of that user towards the open source communities. He perceives that open source communities are just a bunch of negative brain washers. There goes down the drain all your effort to propagate open source.

If a linux fanboy comes to me and gives me some Linux OS  on a CD/DVD and says 'Windows is crap, try this Linux', I will break that CD/DVD into 2 pieces.

I am a proud, happy and satisfied Windows user. I have nothing against open source. The key reason to being satisfied with a software is that you should know that softwares too  have their limitations. You should not expect the world from softwares.

If you guys want to really propagate open source, propagate it on basis of its own merit. If you try to propagate it on basis of Microsoft's demerit, you will face this question without fail: "Will open source products do everything that this paid software doesn't do?".

Saying things like "How Windows lost to Linux or OSS", "Why windows is crap", etc is not going to propel you upwards, it will only push you downwards.


----------



## chandru.in (Jun 1, 2008)

iMav said:


> I wonder releasing the NTFS patch for Linux was acceptance of defeat by Linux



No it was not.  Because NTFS just became an addition not that ext series was stopped from development.

But in MS case, they have not only implemented ODF but have also postponed their own so called standard (OOXML).

If they had implemented ODF now and may be planned for OOXML in another say 1 year (as it is newer standard) it would have been fine.  But having to break their head till 2012 to implement an XML dump of their current binary format is plain ridiculous and shamefull defeat for OOXML.


----------



## iMav (Jun 1, 2008)

^^ they have not postponed, it was on their road map itself, it was for complete addition in the next office release. Office 2007 already has certain OOXML features 

Also ODF has been added and OOXML has not been stopped from development. dude you say something for Linux & when the same thing comes to Windows you guys go like, no no aisa thodi hai, woh toh waisa hai


----------



## chandru.in (Jun 1, 2008)

rohan_shenoy said:


> MS never badmouths open-source communities, whereas some OSS users just live to badmouth MS.



Are you new to technology world?

*www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06/02/ballmer_linux_is_a_cancer/

And in that he speaks absolute non-sense about the GPL.  Poor guy!!



iMav said:


> ^^ they have not postponed, it was on their road map itself, it was for complete addition in the next office release. Office 2007 already has certain OOXML features
> 
> Also ODF has been added and OOXML has not been stopped from development. dude you say something for Linux & when the same thing comes to Windows you guys go like, no no aisa thodi hai, woh toh waisa hai



You are contradicting yourself, they propagate a standard which they claim is already partially implemented in Office 2K7.  Then when time comes to implementing their own so called standard, they say they can't do it till 2012 while they can implement a totally new standard from the scratch within months.  Well I understand your struggles to protect the falling giant.


----------



## Cyrus_the_virus (Jun 1, 2008)

iMav said:


> Dude are freaking dumb or blind?



Reported!



iMav said:


> Dude you are intellect is worse than Cyrus or Praka man.



Reported!

Dude, keep your frustration with Vista inside your pants, don't flame on this thread. Post Reported for flaming.

And as far as abusing me is considered, your hosting account is going to be suspended for 2 days. I hope you read the terms&conditions about verbal abuse.



rohan_shenoy said:


> MS never badmouths open-source communities, whereas some OSS users just live to badmouth MS.



Wake up!



rohan_shenoy said:


> Every blog post posts ..............
> 
> blah..
> blah..
> .................., it will only push you downwards.



This is technology news and not chit chat, read the news and move on, if you got something to say about fanboys, create another thread, don't turn this one into one.

I can see that you're taking out your frustration of the blue screen of death that appeared and had to reinstall everything.. well.. carry on.. but not on this thread. Don't forget which section you're posting in.


----------



## victor_rambo (Jun 1, 2008)

Cyrus_the_virus said:


> And as far as abusing me is considered, your hosting account is going to be suspended for 2 days. I hope you read the terms&conditions about verbal abuse.


Abuse, where did he abuse you? Through a email to your hosting support? or on this forum?


----------



## Cyrus_the_virus (Jun 1, 2008)

rohan_shenoy said:


> Abuse, where did he abuse you? Through a email to your hosting support? or on this forum?



I guess it's better if you can mind your business or atleast answer to what I've quoted to what you said and not answer what I've told anyone else.


----------



## iMav (Jun 1, 2008)

Cyrus_the_virus said:


> And as far as abusing me is considered, your hosting account is going to be suspended for 2 days. I hope you read the terms&conditions about verbal abuse.


 if you want to make this personal be my guest 

@Rohan: forget it, I guess I was wrong about certain assumptions previously.


----------



## kalpik (Jun 1, 2008)

@iMav: Please don't make personal comments on people when you don't want them to be taken personally 

@Cyrus: My personal suggestion: please keep things related to the forum to the forum only


----------



## iMav (Jun 1, 2008)

@Kalpik, I re-read the post and felt that I shouldn't have said it & so I deleted it, but unfortunately, Ubuntu's Firefox wasn't able to match up & Cyrus got enough time to quote me. I deleted the post before reading Cyrus' quote.


----------



## victor_rambo (Jun 1, 2008)

Cyrus_the_virus said:


> I guess it's better if you can mind your business or atleast answer to what I've quoted to what you said and not answer what I've told anyone else.


If you want people to keep away from your business, then do all that 'privately'. Don't post it in public. Do you get that?

What you are going to do with iMav's hosting account is not related to this thread. So you better focus on discussion instead of blackmailing people and forcing them to 'lick my ass or else...'.

FYI, iMav had given me 'positive' feedback about 'outpower hosting'. I was about to buy 10 Super Max hosting accounts and domains from you on behalf of my web programming customers and college. But I think I will reconsider that. I fear you will blackmail me to support OSS or else you will pull down my sites.

Thank God that you lost your control and spoke so rudely, else I would have never got the masked 'real' blackmailer webhosting company. You see, this is called 'my good luck'.


----------



## kalpik (Jun 1, 2008)

Yeah.. Cool.. Just play well


----------



## MetalheadGautham (Jun 1, 2008)

@rohan

I fully agree with you. The problem is that linux CHOOSES not to stay mainstream, because if it went mainstream, it would have n00b users asking stupid questions. Linux currently has mostly power users, unlike Windows and Mac which cater to mainstream n00bs.(no offence meant to anyone)

But then, there are many who wish to see linux as a mainstream OS(shudder... the horrors)
This makes them attack windows at every opportunity.


----------



## victor_rambo (Jun 1, 2008)

iMav said:


> if you want to make this personal be my guest
> 
> @Rohan: forget it, I guess I was wrong about certain assumptions previously.



Dude, you saved me big time!


----------



## MetalheadGautham (Jun 1, 2008)

rohan_shenoy said:


> Dude, you saved me big time!


+1
I think it was evil on Cyrusś part to act like the way he just did.
I know some guys get a little too carried away(gx and imav for windows, cyrus and prakash for linux, goobi and aayush for mac - always a couple of eViL guys) with their support for their Platforn, but this was too much, both on the part of Cyrus and iMav.


----------



## chandru.in (Jun 1, 2008)

@MetalheadGautham

In my case, it is not my wish to see Linux go mainstream.  I hate MS because I'm forced to buy its product at many places.  Why on earth should I buy Vista when I want to buy a laptop with good configuration?

I need laptop with good computing power as I need it for my development work.  But I'm forced to buy Vista or choose a low power system.  Now please don't suggest installing Linux after buying a Vista laptop.  It is like suggesting that I must buy ABC brand bread always though I'll actually eat XYZ brand one.


----------



## Cyrus_the_virus (Jun 1, 2008)

rohan_shenoy said:


> Thank God that you lost your control and spoke so rudely, else I would have never got the masked 'real' blackmailer webhosting company. You see, this is called 'my good luck'.



I'm not intending to blackmail anyone. Being straight is the point. Abuse in any form will not be tolerated. You be good with me(not talking about OSS support or anything related to that), it will be my pleasure to serve you. If you want to take it the other way, I'll be left with no choice. How many threads have I have blackmailed iMav for saying something against OSS? 

So, if you look, you'll realize that it's nothing to do with OSS support like you said it to be. His abuse was clear in that post, and hence that reply.


----------



## victor_rambo (Jun 1, 2008)

Cyrus_the_virus said:


> I'm not intending to blackmail anyone. Being straight is the point. Abuse in any form will not be tolerated. You be good with me(not talking about OSS support or anything related to that), it will be my pleasure to serve you. If you want to take it the other way, I'll be left with no choice. How many threads have I have blackmailed iMav for saying something against OSS?
> 
> So, if you look, you'll realize that it's nothing to do with OSS support like you said it to be. His abuse was clear in that post, and hence that reply.


I did not demand any explanation for any of your acts. Keep them with yourself. I now know how you can behave with me in future and I am not willing to trust  your 'goodness' now. Every professional webhost, knows where to draw the line between personal and business matters.


----------



## narangz (Jun 1, 2008)

^^Your hosting rules do not apply here.


----------



## Cyrus_the_virus (Jun 2, 2008)

rohan_shenoy said:


> I did not demand any explanation for any of your acts. Keep them with yourself. I now know how you can behave with me in future and I am not willing to trust  your 'goodness' now. Every professional webhost, knows where to draw the line between personal and business matters.



Explanation? to whom? to you? Only if explanations could make you understand, your post would have never appeared in the first place.  I had reservations about giving you hosting even if you asked long back after your angry burst out in the Q&A section and undermining the business itself and spreading crap even before you knew anything about it, so, I wouldn't have given you even if you asked, and ofcourse, no host would be willing to give hosting to a rookie hacker  I can't afford to let other customers get affected.

****END OF STORY*****

If you got anything else to say, please keep it off this thread, you have already messed it up quite well..



narangz said:


> ^^Your hosting rules do not apply here.



I know, that's why I'm not suspending anybody's anything


----------



## iMav (Jun 2, 2008)

Forget it guys. It's the wish of the company, I chose the host, I guess I will have to pay the price.

Back to the topic.


----------



## CadCrazy (Jun 2, 2008)

rohan_shenoy said:


> O MS never badmouths open-source communities, whereas some OSS users just live to badmouth MS.



Dude what you call this MS goodmouthing Opensource. You living your entire life in dark with your eyes Closed. Open Up your eyes.

Welcome to elite club of hardcore close eyed guys 

PS no offense meant


----------



## FilledVoid (Jun 2, 2008)

I'm amazed at some of the threads on this forum.  Being a nice person as I am I'm just going to nitpick at some of the lines within this discussion. 

First of all how did the word Linux come in this thread in the first place. This thread is about a document format valid on all platforms . Although I do find that the selection of OOXML as a standard is kind of ironic considering that the "war of the formats" started for the selection of an "Open Standard" not to mention that it hasnt been fully deployable as of writing if I'm correct. Now that is done Id like to verify somethings further .



> And about OpenOffice, it is not comparable to MS office. MS office has a great deal of features.



I've been working with OpenOffice quite a while. Theres probably a 5-20% difference in the *features* (bold for emphasis on the word features). Furthermore, we technically aren't supposed to be comparing Office suites right but rather the format? 



> I fully agree with you. The problem is that linux CHOOSES not to stay mainstream, because if it went mainstream, it would have n00b users asking stupid questions. Linux currently has mostly power users, unlike Windows and Mac which cater to mainstream n00bs.(no offence meant to anyone)


Now as for the above quote I find this rather insulting . Lets speak Logic. I'm going to be nice and consider that Linux , Apple cater to 25% of the worlds computer users. You just called 75% of the computer users mainstream noobs?  If you believe Linux is not supposed to be mainstream why go to the trouble of posting help in any forum or IRC ? If I'm correct you use Ubuntu as your OS? Look up what the meaning of Ubuntu is.

Hopefully people will see what I'm talking about and if you are willing to spend some money get yourself a copy of this months Linux for You it has a very good article about ODF and OOXML.


----------



## iMav (Jun 2, 2008)

Ok guys I think it would be appropriate for me to apologize to cyrus & praka123 for the words I used, I should not have used the words I chose to & deeply regret the same.


----------



## Cyrus_the_virus (Jun 2, 2008)

iMav said:


> Ok guys I think it would be appropriate for me to apologize to cyrus & praka123 for the words I used, I should not have used the words I chose to & deeply regret the same.



-No further comments-
   *END OF STORY*


----------



## MetalheadGautham (Jun 2, 2008)

FilledVoid said:


> Now as for the above quote I find this rather insulting . Lets speak Logic. I'm going to be nice and consider that Linux , Apple cater to 25% of the worlds computer users. You just called 75% of the computer users mainstream noobs?  If you believe Linux is not supposed to be mainstream why go to the trouble of posting help in any forum or IRC ? If I'm correct you use Ubuntu as your OS? Look up what the meaning of Ubuntu is.


I am sorry if you got it wrong, but I said windows has much of its user base in people who are NOT hardcore users or power users, i.e. mainstream n00bs. People like the typist next door, the clerk in the shop down the lane, etc fall in this catogary.

And by n00b, I mean a person who is not willing to get his fundamentals right and wants to use something before understanding it properly. Many windows users have no idea whats the difference between a kernel and an OS.

There definitely exist |337 windows users too, lots of them infact. But that doesn´t change the fact that windows n00bs are plenty, and outnumber windows 1337s.

To use linux, you need to be, and I MEAN need to be, well aquinted with some basic internals. Otherwise you will have one hell of a time using it. And now, canonical comes up with this linux for humans philosophy, which is absolutely right, if and only if people remain human and decide to learn. But most people use an OS as if it doesn exist, i.e, they use the computer for wordprocessing, not the OS.

Ofcourse, Linus Torvaldis himself said that an OS must be as hidden from the user as possible. But its my humble openion that one needs to be aware of whats around him. I tend to disagree on such issues. I beleive using words from a language without knowing them is a sin, and the same applies to Operating Systems.

I know kids who imitate others and use Fu*k without even knowing its meaning.

I don´t want linux to end up like that. I prefer people being aware of what they are using.

Finally, I think if linux becomes mainstream, its time for me to pack up and switch to BSD or one of those BSD-Linux unition projects like Gentoo.


----------



## Faun (Jun 2, 2008)

the flame wars will never end:
*www.imgx.org/files/17673_06itb/ddb06c8f4562b0_full.jpg


----------



## mail2and (Jun 2, 2008)

rohan_shenoy said:


> Ya, it does have shortcomings, but thats is no reason to badmouth it as 'Winblows' or 'M$aft' or whatever.........For me.........Windows Rocks!



Freedom of speech. It's a good thing. Imagine being not able to complain about your college, if they're treating you badly or if you're not satisfied with their teaching.




rohan_shenoy said:


> One thing which I don't like about aggressive OSS supporters is that they leave no opportunity to badmouth  Microsoft. Every blog post posts hatred and cons of Microsoft. It looks very petty.



Generalizing, aren't we?




> And about OpenOffice, it is not comparable to MS office. MS office has a great deal of features.



Individual perspective. It's for everyone to decide what's good for themselves. I normally do not use Microsoft products, but since I'll be working in an industry which makes heavy use of Excel, I'll have to use it. It depends on each person's situation. For home use i.e. writing notes, essays etc., I don't see how any office suite won't suffice. 



> Remember, every average user, unaware of open source, has a great subconscious feeling of respect to the software he uses, which happens to be a Microsoft  product in majority of the cases. He is very happy and satisfied.
> 
> This is where he develops a defensive attitude towards the fanboys and so whatever these fanboys say will again be subconsciously 'rejected' by the average user.



I know a lot of people who couldn't care less about what open source is, and who use Excel eighteen hours a day; but who constantly crib about things that could have been better about it. The day people stop complaining about how things could/should be better would be the day innovation would end. Remember you're seeing graphics on your computer because someone  wasn't satisfied with text-only displays.



> I am a proud, happy and satisfied Windows user. I have nothing against open source. The key reason to being satisfied with a software is that you should know that softwares too  have their limitations. You should not expect the world from softwares.



Bingo! 





Cyrus_the_virus said:


> And as far as abusing me is considered, your hosting account is going to be suspended for 2 days. I hope you read the terms&conditions about verbal abuse.:



I agree with Kalpik here. I would strongly recommend you to keep personal matters away from business matters. But, that's purely my personal opinion.


----------



## gary4gar (Jun 2, 2008)

Cyrus_the_virus said:


> And as far as abusing me is considered, your hosting account is going to be suspended for 2 days. I hope you read the terms&conditions about verbal abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> Wake up!



Buddy, I think you should keep Business and professional matters separated .
just my humble suggestion but in the end of day, its all up to you


----------



## Cyrus_the_virus (Jun 2, 2008)

gary4gar said:


> Buddy, I think you should keep Business and professional matters separated . just my humble suggestion but in the end of day, its all up to you





mail2and said:


> I agree with Kalpik here. I would strongly recommend you to keep personal matters away from business matters. But, that's purely my personal opinion.





narangz said:


> ^^Your hosting rules do not apply here.



Already Answered:



Cyrus_the_virus said:


> I know, that's why I'm not suspending anybody's anything



Although technically it is right, because the hosting offers were exclusive to this forum and he bought it from here itself and he was very well aware that he was hosting with me. Why would I want to host a guy who abuses me on one side knowing it's me and at the same time want's me to host his site? Whether that be abusing the business or personal. So, it's not like he didn't know who he was indirectly calling names. However, I have given him a chance to redeem himself since he's already apologised.

It would be appreciated, if everyone could follow the previous post:


Cyrus_the_virus said:


> -No further comments-
> *END OF STORY*


----------



## victor_rambo (Jun 2, 2008)

Cyrus_the_virus said:


> Already Answered:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because he 'paid' you to host his site. You ain't doing a favour or nobel  deed by hosting his site. If you are not paid to 'bear his abuses', then you can rightfully rebuke back with specific reference to that without affecting his hosting.

Once again, if you want to do business, then do it, else we have tons of company like outpower hosting. We don't need blackmailer host.


----------



## Cyrus_the_virus (Jun 2, 2008)

rohan_shenoy said:


> Because he 'paid' you to host his site. You ain't doing a favour or nobel  deed by hosting his site. If you are not paid to 'bear his abuses', then you can rightfully rebuke back with specific reference to that without affecting his hosting.



Well, you said it, he paid for the hosting and not for leavage of abuse. Paying for a service doesn't mean you can do whatever you want and you can abuse the provider in any form. Abusing the provider personally knowing he/she is the provider is no different from abusing the service provided. 

Business relationships are made between 2 people and when the character of one of them is in question, then that deal is at jeopardy. So, please save the talk about professional and personal. They are interconnected. Easy to say when you look from the outside, but when you start doing your own business, you'll find how relevant personal abuses can be in the deterioration of a business relationship.

However, since he's apologied already, it would be greatly appreciated if you guys could stick to the topic and not pull this up anymore.


----------



## victor_rambo (Jun 2, 2008)

Cyrus_the_virus said:


> Well, you said it, he paid for the hosting and not for leavage of abuse. Paying for a service doesn't mean you can do whatever you want and you can abuse the provider in any form. Abusing the provider personally knowing he/she is the provider is no different from abusing the service provided.
> 
> Business relationships are made between 2 people and when the character of one of them is in question, then that deal is at jeopardy. So, please save the talk about professional and personal. They are interconnected. Easy to say when you look from the outside, but when you start doing your own business, you'll find how relevant personal abuses can be in the deterioration of a business relationship.
> 
> However, since he's apologied already, it would be greatly appreciated if you guys could stick to the topic and not pull this up anymore.


So that means that once you take the money from the customer, then you will hold him up at ransom for disagreeing with you ........

Dude, you should know what thing to take seriously and what not. Looks like you are business to boost your ego by holding your customers to ransom.

And btw, this is not in between you two, its now open to the whole world. You should have used the PM system if you wanted to keep it in between you two only. 

Again, you are such a unprofessional hoster, OMG I can't believe I was going to make the mistake of buying from you! My good luck


----------



## Cyrus_the_virus (Jun 2, 2008)

rohan_shenoy said:


> So that means that once you take the money from the customer, then you will hold him up at ransom for disagreeing with you ........



No point repeating the same thing to you. It's not about disagreement, it's about abuse. As far as you're concerned, because you're such an OSS hater, you will always think that I was blackmailing or holding up for ransom because he disagreed with OSS Get a life, the post is clear enough.



rohan_shenoy said:


> And btw, this is not in between you two, its now open to the whole world. You should have used the PM system if you wanted to keep it in between you two only.



Yeah, it's out in the open so that everyone who's come across is will have a better sense of judgement than you have to realize that it's about abuse and not disagreement 



rohan_shenoy said:


> Again, you are such a unprofessional hoster, OMG I can't believe I was going to make the mistake of buying from you! My good luck


Like your opinion was any different from day one even before you knew a crap about the service. And like I said before, my luck that I didn't take your orders, else all my other customers would have been affected 

Good riddence...

************************ STORY ENDS HERE ********************


----------



## victor_rambo (Jun 2, 2008)

Cyrus_the_virus said:


> No point repeating the same thing to you. It's not about disagreement, it's about abuse. As far as you're concerned, because you're such an OSS hater, you will always think that I was blackmailing or holding up for ransom because he disagreed with OSS Get a life, the post is clear enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And you thought i would ever choose an noob hoster like you.........go die outpower hosting before you kill your customers!


----------



## Cyrus_the_virus (Jun 2, 2008)

rohan_shenoy said:


> And you thought i would ever choose an noob hoster like you.........go die outpower hosting before you kill your customers!





Reported for taking thread offtopic even after repeated requests.


----------



## Faun (Jun 2, 2008)

lol...really an admin need to be a patient one.


----------



## victor_rambo (Jun 2, 2008)

Cyrus_the_virus said:


> Reported for taking thread offtopic even after repeated requests.


Lol! you start the whole and then want to stop it when things get out of your control!

Anywayz, let the offtopic posts be deleted.


----------



## kumarmohit (Jun 2, 2008)

*Really like the flamewars not adding inches thing! ROTFL*

Now I do not want to kick the flame war again. so I would not be posting any counter replies. 



Cyrus_the_virus said:


> Well, you said it, he paid for the hosting and not for leavage of abuse. Paying for a service doesn't mean you can do whatever you want and you can abuse the provider in any form. Abusing the provider personally knowing he/she is the provider is no different from abusing the service provided.



Now put in perpective, the engineer's who slog their a$$e$ at Microsoft before you criticize their work. Going by the same logic, you must also be open to same treatment coz you took money from ppl for hosting. If their product is not perfect, nor is your service! It is also prone to problems


----------



## Pat (Jun 2, 2008)

rohan_shenoy said:


> Lol! you start the whole and then want to stop it when things get out of your control!
> 
> Anywayz, let the offtopic posts be deleted.



I dint want to post offtopic but why is it so difficult for you to understand that these discussions are not needed now that Cyrus has asked not to comment on it..Or is it that he has  hurt your ego by terming you a "rookie hacker"  

Whatever the case be,  I would like everyone to know that Cyrus is a very helpful guy and if needed, I would continue dealing with him for years to come! He has some excellent plans, provides prompt service and support and thats all that matters to me!



kumarmohit said:


> *Really like the flamewars not adding inches thing! ROTFL*
> 
> Now I do not want to kick the flame war again. so I would not be posting any counter replies.
> 
> ...



MS does not get criticized because they charge for their OS..Get over it


----------



## victor_rambo (Jun 2, 2008)

Pat said:


> I dint want to post offtopic but why is it so difficult for you to understand that these discussions are not needed now that Cyrus has asked not to comment on it..Or is it that he has  hurt your ego by terming you a "rookie hacker"
> 
> Whatever the case be,  I would like everyone to know that Cyrus is a very helpful guy and if needed, I would continue dealing with him for years to come! He has some excellent plans, provides prompt service and support and thats all that matters to me!


lol.....I did not even read that he called me a 'rookie hacker'. Any wayz, thasnk for the compliment :S

And btw just because he requested to not to comment, I didn't feel that was really ok on his side! Can he speak rudely and then say 'please don't comment'....lol.........he should have better posted that 'i don't have an answer to your question!'


----------



## FilledVoid (Jun 2, 2008)

> I dint want to post offtopic but why is it so difficult for you to understand that these discussions are not needed now that Cyrus has asked not to comment on it..Or is it that he has hurt your ego by terming you a "rookie hacker"


No offense meant and your role in this would be exactly what again? Let them finish their problems off the board or if you feel inconvenienced greatly theres a report button on the left bottom corner of the post. I'm pretty sure you knew that much better than me. 



> Whatever the case be, I would like everyone to know that Cyrus is a very helpful guy and if needed, I would continue dealing with him for years to come! He has some excellent plans, provides prompt service and support and thats all that matters to me!



I doubt anyone needs a disclaimer from you to prove hes a helpful person. Hes already explained his actions , iMav has already posted long time ago . So seriously why should you go on justifying anything? 



> MS does not get criticized because they charge for their OS..Get over it



Would they have been criticized if they had released it for free?


----------



## Pat (Jun 2, 2008)

FilledVoid said:


> No offense meant and your role in this would be exactly what again? Let them finish their problems off the board or if you feel inconvenienced greatly theres a report button on the left bottom corner of the post. I'm pretty sure you knew that much better than me.



And what have you done ? You could have done the same buddy 




FilledVoid said:


> I doubt anyone needs a disclaimer from you to prove hes a helpful person. Hes already explained his actions , iMav has already posted long time ago . So seriously why should you go on justifying anything?



I am not justifying anything or anyone! I just dont want a nice person to lose business just bcoz of a few jerks and I dont understand why the hell are you bothered about it  You can keep your advices and suggestions to yourself! Thanks 




FilledVoid said:


> Would they have been criticized if they had released it for free?



Would Linux have been criticized if it was not free ?  I know it sounds stupid but thats how your question is..There are probably around 97387 reasons and more serious ones why MS is criticized!



rohan_shenoy said:


> lol.....I did not even read that he called me a 'rookie hacker'. Any wayz, thasnk for the compliment :S



Ya welcome buddy if that makes you happy  I am happy just knowing that you wont be using the same hosting service as mine


----------



## iMav (Jun 2, 2008)

Pat said:


> I am not justifying anything or anyone! I just dont want a nice person to lose business just bcoz of a few jerks and I dont understand why the hell are you bothered about it  You can keep your comments and suggestions to yourself! Thanks


Be careful of whom you call jerks  

I have been avoiding posting here but I guess it is time a few more thing were cleared, I made a simple post on my blog about the issue, where I had not implicated any1, I had not named any1, the title of the post dealt with FOSS hypocrisy, the post was tailored to make sure that no 1 was named and the post was restricted to the title, but cyrus threatened me to remove the blog post too.

Members of this forum had also read & posted on the blog entry and have said to me in private that there was nothing wrong with the blog post, I still have the post, I shall post it if need be for any1's scrutiny.

He first threatens me to pull down my site for using foul language which I deleted on my own and have personallyl & publicly apologized for.* But then this guy wants me to post on my blog what he feels should be posted and not be posted*. Again let me assure you that the post did not name any1 or any company. Cyrus himself had replied to that post and told me to remove it but I asked him to tell me what offends him and I willedit it the repply was point blank, remove the post or lose hosting.

149/- for freedom of speech is a small price considering that I smell foul play as my site is not opening on any of my 4 Operating systems and on any of the 3 most commonly used browsers, it is opening for others, which I guess he has blocked my IP or something.


----------



## FilledVoid (Jun 2, 2008)

> And what have you done ? You could have done the same buddy


I dont recall saying anything about the above mentioned topic. 



> Would Linux have been criticized if it was not free ? I know it sounds stupid but thats how your question is..There are probably around 97387 reasons and more serious ones why MS is criticized!



Absolutely. If I paid for Linux and I found a bug Id be breathing fire for support or getting it fixed.  



> just dont want a nice person to lose business just bcoz of a few jerks and I dont understand why the hell are you bothered about it  You can keep your advices and suggestions to yourself!



If I was to nitpick further I would say you were just advertising his service. But personally I have no desire to fight with some random kid on the block.  Nonetheless I do find his plans quite competitive . As for my advice you are free to ignore it.

Edit: Removed question to iMav cause I didnt read his whole post carefully . My bad.


----------



## iMav (Jun 2, 2008)

It's opening for every1 other than me on any of the 4 Operating systems on my machine and have used all the browsers, not to mention every thing else is working perfect


----------



## Pat (Jun 2, 2008)

FilledVoid said:


> Absolutely. If I paid for Linux and I found a bug Id be breathing fire for support or getting it fixed.


That is not the point..The point is that Linux gets criticized even though it is free! 
 (which according to you should not happen)




FilledVoid said:


> If I was to nitpick further I would say you were just advertising his service. But personally I have no desire to fight with some random kid on the block.  Nonetheless I do find his plans quite competitive . As for my advice you are free to ignore it.



Whats wrong with advertising some service/product that you like ? Dont you do that for your favourite product ? Dont you like to let others know that a certain thing or product is good ? IMO its pretty human to do that!

As far as fighting is concerned, I am not interested either! And thanks for calling me a kid, uncle 



iMav said:


> Be careful of whom you call jerks
> 
> I have been avoiding posting here but I guess it is time a few more thing were cleared, I made a simple post on my blog about the issue, where I had not implicated any1, I had not named any1, the title of the post dealt with FOSS hypocrisy, the post was tailored to make sure that no 1 was named and the post was restricted to the title, but cyrus threatened me to remove the blog post too.
> 
> ...



I dont know what happened in this regard and I have nothing against you or Cyrus or anyone..My experience with him has been different and thats the reason why I recommend his service


----------



## Cyrus_the_virus (Jun 2, 2008)

iMav said:


> 149/- for freedom of speech is a small price considering that I smell foul play as my site is not opening on any of my 4 Operating systems and on any of the 3 most commonly used browsers, it is opening for others, which I guess he has blocked my IP or something.




Dude, I seriously don't know what your problem is. I have not touched your account for any reason. So stop accusing me of things I would never imagine of doing. There might be a problem with your ISP's DNS that it's not resolving. BSNL has been having problems with their DNS for the last few days if that's what you're using.

Please check it at your end, if not, come on chat support and I'll see what the problem is. This thread is not the support line for hosting.


----------



## FilledVoid (Jun 2, 2008)

> That is not the point..The point is that Linux gets criticized even though it is free!
> (which according to you should not happen)



According to me this forum should stop going apeshit over Linux / Windows post. But lets face it , its not going to happen. Every single product is going to get criticized, My point was exactly that. Even if Microsoft would have gift wrapped it  and send you an XBOX360 (dream on) with it, people would have still criticized it.



> Whats wrong with advertising some service/product that you like ? Dont you do that for your favourite product ? Dont you like to let others know that a certain thing or product is good ? IMO its pretty human to do that!


As per the sticky above


> "* No Scamming/Spamming/Advertising.
> This forum is not a marketing/money making tool! No Pyramid schemes, chain letters, spam, or advertising of Web sites/products will be entertained here. This applies to forum posts and the inboxes of our members.



Im not in any way implying that you are making money off of this . As I said "if I were nitpicking" I would probably say this. 



> And thanks for calling me a kid, uncle


You are absolutely welcome kiddo  .


----------



## kalpik (Jun 2, 2008)

Thread locked cause its gone offtopic.


----------

