# Opera files a case against Microsoft



## NucleusKore (Dec 14, 2007)

Opera Software said Thursday it is filing a complaint against Microsoft in the European Union alleging the software giant is abusing its power and tying Internet Explorer to the Windows operating system. Opera also has a beef about Microsoft’s support for Web standards.

In its complaint, Opera argues that:

    “Microsoft is abusing its dominant position by tying its browser, Internet Explorer, to the Windows operating system and by hindering interoperability by not following accepted Web standards. Opera has requested the Commission to take the necessary actions to compel Microsoft to give consumers a real choice and to support open Web standards in Internet Explorer.”

This argument is sounding pretty familiar as Microsoft has repeatedly been in hot water over tying IE and Windows together. That’s what the scrum with the Department of Justice years ago was about.

However, Opera is likely to find a more receptive audience in the EU, which isn’t exactly a fan of Microsoft’s. I’m no lawyer, but if the EU had a beef with tying Windows Media Player and Windows together it only stands to reason that it will have a similar ruling about IE.

Read On
*blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=7332&tag=nl.e622


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## naveen_reloaded (Dec 14, 2007)

Wtf, if apple does this...no one ask's..
But if ms does everybody jumps in..what a world?


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## NucleusKore (Dec 14, 2007)

You have a point. Besides they did not prevent other browsers from being installed on windows. 

What Opera is sayng is when you bundle IE with Windows, the person, especially if he is a newcomer, is going to use what is readily available and the question of downloading and installing other browsers does not arise. This becomes a problem because Microsoft has more than the lion's share of the OS market. They can call the shots with everything that cames with their OS. *That comes with added responsibility*. Why not Apple? In terms of marketshare they have a LONG LONG way to go, the statistics speak for themselves. 

But the case here is more about web standards (read above article)


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## The_Devil_Himself (Dec 14, 2007)

^^yea I agree with the web standards issue,Have seen many web developers complaining that they have to make 2 copies of every webpage--one for all web broswers(standard) and the other exclusively for IE.M$ should atleast stick to the widely accepted standards.

And yea opera is sure to win the case in Europe. Europe is so fugging cool.


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## ray|raven (Dec 14, 2007)

Go Opera 

Regards,
ray


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Dec 14, 2007)

Whimsical remarks of a Product whose market share is rapidly depleting .

This way they should file a case  against Canonical(Ubunutu) , Apple , n all other PS making companies as virtually all Operating System's bundle a browser with them .

ANd , all these companies file the "product bundling" cases in "European Union" only because they know that the EU is already biased against Microsoft and they can get away with these cases .

First it was over Windows Media Player , now IE . 

After some time they'll say don't bundle notepad as this is not giving the user a real choice .


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## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

NucleusKore said:
			
		

> What Opera is sayng is when you bundle IE with Windows, the person, especially if he is a newcomer, is going to use what is readily available and the question of downloading and installing other browsers does not arise. This becomes a problem because Microsoft has more than the lion's share of the OS market. They can call the shots with everything that cames with their OS. *That comes with added responsibility*. Why not Apple? In terms of marketshare they have a LONG LONG way to go, the statistics speak for themselves.


 
Suppose MS provides Vista without any browser, how will u download Opera then *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif

Web standards,,,....Ok, IE 7 isn't the best for this out there, but MS is changing it with IE 8 anyway with the Expression HTML engine in IE 8. What the hell does Opera wants? A new version with better standard compliency...well, have patience opera, it is coming after which people might not need Opera anymore with IE 8 Pro *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/10.gif


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## utsav (Dec 14, 2007)

lol.its a old news for me just visit my blog.i posted this news yesterday. u r one day late*gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif


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## Batistabomb (Dec 14, 2007)

Opera rocks, the performance of IE is worst in LAN environment isn't it


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## iMav (Dec 14, 2007)

we cant beat u so we will sue u


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## x3060 (Dec 14, 2007)

opera is a good browser . . no complaints , there , why the hell they want to get in to sue business


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## Cool G5 (Dec 14, 2007)

Opera Rocks.


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## naveen_reloaded (Dec 14, 2007)

Gx saurav superb fact..without ie how can one download opera?
Stupids..
I dont get the point..i company wants to give its own product along with os, what is the problem.tom vlc will complain about wmp11, windows blinds about themes.,yahoo about msn,google about search...

Then ms has to remove nearly all the component and will be nude...
They are just stupids...

Carry on ms...

But i like opera...


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Dec 14, 2007)

Same here , i Too don't have any probs with Opera but wy the hell do they make these foolish claims .

It is but natural for a company to sell it's own products , you wouldn't expect microsoft to bundle iTunes along with windows .

Similarly , MS can sue that why does Opera's Default installation has it's home-page set to Opera.com , the user should be given a choice to choose his homepage on installation


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## iMav (Dec 14, 2007)

naveen_reloaded said:
			
		

> I dont get the point..i company wants to give its own product along with os, what is the problem.tom vlc will complain about wmp11, windows blinds about themes.,yahoo about msn,google about search...


 ah as a matter of act:

real networks sued MS in EU for bundling WMP with windows - EU ruling MS should give a version without WMP 

Google sued MS for having live search as default search in IE - ruling fcuk off google

google sued MS for amazing integration of windows instant search in vista - ruling MS shud allow competition

norton sued ms for making sure that vista is very secure - ruling fcuk u MS u r not allowed to make ur OS secure


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Dec 14, 2007)

as i said EU is biased and totally anti-MS  , that's why these companies file cases against MSFT in EU .


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## Indyan (Dec 14, 2007)

I have been a long time Opera user and supporter. But I dont fully agree with this move (or most of the antitrust moves).
As others have said its ridiculous to force MS to make their product (Windows) less productive. Look around. All OS including Leopard(Mac), and various Linux distros come preloaded with multiple softwares(including web browser). So why pick on only MS? Why not sue apple also for carrying Safari?

I absolutely agree with demand #2 though. But again there is the question. Can you punish someone for  making and distributing a bad software?


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## The_Devil_Himself (Dec 14, 2007)

Indyan said:
			
		

> I absolutely agree with demand #2 though. But again there is the question. Can you punish someone for  making and distributing a bad software?


yea sure if you're an european.They are more consumer oriented unlike us and US.


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## Batistabomb (Dec 14, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Suppose MS provides Vista without any browser, how will u download Opera then *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif
> 
> Web standards,,,....Ok, IE 7 isn't the best for this out there, but MS is changing it with IE 8 anyway with the Expression HTML engine in IE 8. What the hell does Opera wants? A new version with better standard compliency...well, have patience opera, it is coming after which people might not need Opera anymore with IE 8 Pro *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/10.gif



we don't even think this while responding to msg, you are right dear


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## Indyan (Dec 14, 2007)

The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> yea sure if you're an european.They are more consumer oriented unlike us and US.


I doubt it. Because IE is free and no one is forcing you to use it. I think they can only be held liable if they spread false info about their product which they are not.


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## narangz (Dec 14, 2007)

@Devil- Then why not Apple & Linux distros are also slapped with anti-trust suites in EU?

1. AFAIK IE is not the default browser unless user launches it in Vista. Even the quick launch icon appears after IE7 is launched once.
2. WMP11 in Vista is not the default MP. You have to execute it & then select what files you want to be associated with WMP11. The quick launch icon appears only after it is launched once from the program menu.


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## The_Devil_Himself (Dec 14, 2007)

^^apple:No Idea maybe cos very less people use it.

Linux:lols,They are mostly free of cost you see and you can use whichever compatible browser you like and let me tell you not all give firefox as default web browser.And you guys better not compare linux to M$\Windows.

And I say it again:just wait and watch,opera is gonna win the case.

All hail europe and european courts.


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## ray|raven (Dec 14, 2007)

Offtopic but,
They should file a case against apple IMO,
See this:
*www.apple.com/safari/

They claim that safari is faster than all browsers,
Like hell it is,I used it on windows and its way slow compared to the new 9.5 beta.

Regards,
ray


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## narangz (Dec 14, 2007)

The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> ^^apple:No Idea maybe cos very less people use it.
> 
> *Linux:lols,They are mostly free of cost you see and you can use whichever compatible browser you like and let me tell you not all give firefox as default web browser.And you guys better not compare linux to M$\Windows.*
> 
> ...



Oh so IE 7 is not a freeware? Can't you use Opera, Firefox, Safari in Windows & set them as default?

Check out my edited post above, please.


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## The_Devil_Himself (Dec 14, 2007)

^^man get it right:I said Linux distros are free not the fugging web browsers.But tell me is windows free?


I have paid for sh!t and I am gonna tell everybody that They should also do the same.


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## narangz (Dec 14, 2007)

The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> ^^man get it right:I said Linux distros are free not the fugging web browsers.But tell me is windows free?
> 
> 
> *I have paid for sh!t and I am gonna tell everybody that They should also do the same.*



Where the hell am I telling people to use Vista? Man you are attacking indirectly in your posts.


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## ray|raven (Dec 14, 2007)

@narangz,
Its simply due to MS having the major share,
think of smthing like this,
One guy goes around shouting,nobody cares,
100guys go around shouting, cops call it a riot and throw them in.

Regards,
ray


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## QwertyManiac (Dec 14, 2007)

gx_saurav has never heard of FTP.


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## The_Devil_Himself (Dec 14, 2007)

@nagaranz:lol.No offence meant.Glad you get the meaning.

I just wanted to convey that linux is free and windows costs a bomb.

spose that you are a developer that develops,lets say, a media player.It can be free to use or paid.Now since windows is selling their XP\Vista with WMP bundled you you're losing potential users of your product,isn't it?And this is precisely what norton(closed kernel) and real media player said earlier and actually won their cases in europe and now its opera filing this case.

It may sound unjust from M$ point of view but it is not!!Trust me.

Also,consider the second point--IE doesn't follow standard rules in web world.Web developers have to make different copies for the same webpage and that sux!.

I hope I have cleared my point.


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## narangz (Dec 14, 2007)

QwertyManiac said:
			
		

> gx_saurav has never heard of FTP.



You can't expect newbies to know about FTP & how it works. They know how to launch a browser and download stuff.


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## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> Linux:lols,They are mostly free of cost you see and you can use whichever compatible browser you like and let me tell you not all give firefox as default web browser.And you guys better not compare linux to M$\Windows.


 
Windows: Lolz...IE is mostly free of cost & you can use which ever compatible browser u want whether safari, opera, firefox, lynx, k-melon....& tell u what, IE is not the default browser in Windows Vista unless u start it once.



> gx_saurav has never heard of FTP


 
Sure, write the name of the FTP server in the manual given inside the retail Windows Box. How will u find out the FTP address other then this.

So, Why not this....just give the kernel in Windows DVD with nothing bundled, & just a command line DOS shell. Now, bundle a 1000 page manual with ftp address written in it for file browser, media player etc. 

Oh....I forgot, a dialer or LAN connection method cannot be given bundled either with Windows...


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## narangz (Dec 14, 2007)

The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> 1. @nagaranz:lol.No offence meant.Glad you get the meaning.
> 
> I just wanted to convey that linux is free and windows costs a bomb.
> 
> ...



1. I got the meaning in the other thread too. I hope you remember that thread.

2. Apple is also bundling products. Eg.- Safari. One day someone will sue a linux distro for making FF the default browser(that's what I meant in the thread above but couldn't write in a proper way) Now isn't this a silly suite? That Syamntec case is also a fine piece of how partiality is done. MS can't even make their OWN OS more secure!!!

3. I agree with this point. IE should follow W3C guidelines. But what problem Opera has in this?


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## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> spose that you are a developer that develops,lets say, a media player.It can be free to use or paid.Now since windows is selling their XP\Vista with WMP bundled you you're losing potential users of your product,isn't it?And this is precisely what norton(closed kernel) and real media player said earlier and actually won their cases in europe and now its opera filing this case.


 
So, Microsoft is not allowed to give better out of the box experience to the users. Hey, then why do u Linux users always blame MS for not providing good out of the box experience.

Is Microsoft prohibiting anyone from using Real Player as the default player for everything in Windows Vista.

Is Microsoft wrong in making the kernel of Windows Vista secure from any kind of external intrusion?



> Also,consider the second point--IE doesn't follow standard rules in web world.Web developers have to make different copies for the same webpage and that sux!.


 
This I agree to, just wait for IE 8 scheduled in 2008.

This is what Opera said...



> Remove Internet Explorer from its Windows operating systems. Opera is also asking that Microsoft allow for other web browsers to be pre-installed with Windows along with desktop icons for each respective browser.


Why? Opera isn't made by MS. So if tomorrow there is some problem in Opera due to which a customar calls MS tech support, MS has to deal with something they have not even created.

People talk about bloat & crapware in Windows. Isn't having 5 browsers instead of 1, like Opera, Firefox, Lynx, Safari, & K-Mellon installed, along with OpenOffice.org, Explorer, Gnome & KDE all preinstalled also a bloat.

If a customar wants something else, or if he is sick of IE 7 he can simply search on the provided search box in IE 7 for "Internet explorer alternative".

If he wants to change the default search provider, just go to that site like google & it automatically gives an option to set google as default search engine.



> Force Microsoft to comply with open Web standards brought forth by Web-authoring communities.


 
Yup, do this. Oh! wait....for IE 8.


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## fun2sh (Dec 14, 2007)

are opera wants to gain publicity!!! thats its!! by suein MS they will cum in light more n ppl of europe n usa (where IE is used max) wil cum to know that THEIR FAV IE IS BEIN SUED BY A LOT LOT BETTER BROWSER!!!!!


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## MetalheadGautham (Dec 14, 2007)

@gx_saurav: IE 8? and in the meanwhile?

and linux is not in the picture at all, because most distros(dvd editions) also have other browsers like konqueror and that thing whose name I forgot in fluxbuntu


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## iMav (Dec 14, 2007)

i dont how many of u guys see Boston Legal on star world but apparently this wednesday's episode had william shatner - in show danny crane fighting something similar and he did a very simple demonstration ...

* when ur no. 1 in something u have a big bulls eye imprinted on ur a$$ and every1 tries to aim at it same is the case with MS*; it has a big bulls eye printed on its a$$ any1 who wants publicity aims at it 

(in show he stripped to his underwear which had a bulls eye printed on the back)

and btw this is what opera actually means by the law suit: We cant beat u so we will sue u  thats fair aint it


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## din (Dec 14, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> So, Microsoft is not allowed to give better out of the box experience to the users. Hey, then why do u Linux users always blame MS for not providing good out of the box experience.
> 
> Is Microsoft prohibiting anyone from using Real Player as the default player for everything in Windows Vista.



Oh no, not again !

The monopoly, killing competition in un-ethical ways - Already discussed many times in this forum, also around the world. And measures has been taken against MS by various courts. No need to argue on that ! Discussed many many times ....


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## iMav (Dec 14, 2007)

^^ very dino sir:

windows aint allowed to give media player; not allowed to give a secure OS; not allowed to make live search as its default search and not allowed to give ie also  un-ethical ways its very un-ethical for a company to bundle something that they make with another product they make

its ethical for nokia to give bundled headfones with their cell fones 

its very ethical for apple to give safari; instant search; itunes with os x very ethical its so freakin ethical that no 1 files a case against it

but its very un-ethical for ms to bundle wmp & ie


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## Sukhdeep Singh (Dec 14, 2007)

Problem with Microsoft - had they not given a browser along the OS, People would have said, WTF, i paid 200$+ for this and it doesnt have a simple webbrowser so i can check mails

If they give Explorer, WTF, Microsoft wants its monopoly......

* Microsoft - Damn if they do it, damned if they dont.

* Remember the story of Man, his son and a Donkey, Duniya kisi bhi tarah jine nahi degi


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## din (Dec 14, 2007)

sorry no comments at all ! Explained it by experts / courts many times, so why should I !!


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## iMav (Dec 14, 2007)

ya right  

"we cant beat u so we will sue u"


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## Batistabomb (Dec 14, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> i dont how many of u guys see Boston Legal on star world but apparently this wednesday's episode had william shatner - in show danny crane fighting something similar and he did a very simple demonstration ...
> 
> * when ur no. 1 in something u have a big bulls eye imprinted on ur a$$ and every1 tries to aim at it same is the case with MS*; it has a big bulls eye printed on its a$$ any1 who wants publicity aims at it
> 
> ...



well said, this is true


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## nvidia (Dec 14, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> "we cant beat u so we will sue u"


 ROFL!


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## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

MetalheadGautham said:
			
		

> @gx_saurav: IE 8? and in the meanwhile?


 
Developing a software takes time.


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## fun2sh (Dec 14, 2007)

yeah that it!!

but opera rocks!!! AND IE SUCKS THOUGH M$ ROCKS TOO


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## NucleusKore (Dec 14, 2007)

naveen_reloaded said:
			
		

> Gx saurav superb fact..without ie how can one download opera?
> Stupids..



You're both fatheads. There are enough and more ways to *download and install* software in linux *without* a browser.

I pity your ignorance


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## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

NucleusKore said:
			
		

> You're both fatheads. There are enough and more ways to *download and install* software in linux *without* a browser.


 
umm....we are talking about Windows here.

Windows is not Linux.

The key with the success of Windows is that things work fine even without internet connection. U can always get software from 3rd party sources like magzine & books etc.

If Microsoft bundles something like synaptic with Windows, then they again will be sued cos...

1) It point to Windows Market place by default *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/10.gif

2) Windows Comes bundled with Microsoft Application Search by default, due to which customars don't get to use Google Application Search or Opera application search*gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif

Dude...talk something which makes sense.


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## din (Dec 14, 2007)

Gettng diverted ..



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> The key with the success of Windows is that things work fine even without internet connection. U can always get software from 3rd party sources like magzine & books etc.



If you meant the drivers - Most vendors make drivers for Win thinking only less people use Lin. Thats changing now and Lin automatically detect a lot of devices (like XP) than before and more vendors / community people are coming with drivers. They will be available in CDs etc, no doubt.

If you meant third party softwares, there are a lot of software coming in magazine CDs just like Win.

I guess you meant the Ubuntu CD may be ? Ubuntu DVD will do it for people who do not have a fast internet connection (just as an example).

And if you meant the OS updates, then its again same as Win - download updates as in Windows, no difference !

Not sure why we are discussing the bundling / monopoly / killing competition issues again ! They are discussed many times. And many courts around the world took correct decisions as well too. So why argue on that again ?


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## alsiladka (Dec 14, 2007)

For heavens sake! It is an Operating System!!
When a user buys an operating system, he expects it to atleast play music, surf the internet with it! Would you pay for an operating system which cannot even play music or browse the internet?
How many people have bought the Windows N Editions in EU, how many OEMs bundle N Editions with their computers? I had read a report sometime back that not a single copy of the N edition has been sold.


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## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

We are not talking about Linux here.



			
				din said:
			
		

> If you meant the drivers - Most vendors make drivers for Win thinking only less people use Lin. Thats changing now and Lin automatically detect a lot of devices (like XP) than before and more vendors / community people are coming with drivers. They will be available in CDs etc, no doubt.


 
I was not talking about drivers,


> If you meant third party softwares, there are a lot of software coming in magazine CDs just like Win.


 
Yup, but I hope u know about the sorry state of offline package management in Linux. Not every company makes a big 24 MB deb file like google does for picasa.



> Ubuntu DVD will do it for people who do not have a fast internet connection (just as an example).


 
Ubuntu should be sued cos they bundle Firefox in Ubuntu because of which people don't get to use KDE Browser 

They should be sued cos they give synaptic, due to which people don't get to use Adapt.


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## NucleusKore (Dec 14, 2007)

alsiladka said:
			
		

> For heavens sake! It is an Operating System!!
> When a user buys an operating system, he expects it to atleast play music, surf the internet with it! Would you pay for an operating system which cannot even play music or browse the internet?
> How many people have bought the Windows N Editions in EU, how many OEMs bundle N Editions with their computers? I had read a report sometime back that not a single copy of the N edition has been sold.



Yes, then they are obliged to give users a choice of browsers, media players and everything else. That is not an excuse of integrating it so much that it cannot be removed.


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## iMav (Dec 14, 2007)

cant u simply install what u want  what kind of an arguement is that


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## NucleusKore (Dec 14, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Ubuntu should be sued cos they bundle Firefox in Ubuntu because of which people don't get to use KDE Browser



Yes, they *bundle* it, but you can uninstall it and install something else. It is not *integrated* into the OS. Can you uninstall Internet Explorer? Your comparison is not valid.


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## din (Dec 14, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Suppose MS provides Vista without any browser, how will u download Opera then *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif



I am ignorant on this as I do not use Vista. My question is, no other browser support Vista yet ?  If thats the case, then gx is right. If any other browser is there and if they are available in CDs, no need of IE to download Opera too.


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## iMav (Dec 14, 2007)

yup the comparison is not valid coz IE is numero uno - and if we cant beat u we will sue u


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## NucleusKore (Dec 14, 2007)

din said:
			
		

> I am ignorant on this as I do not use Vista. My question is, no other browser support Vista yet ?  If thats the case, then gx is right. If any other browser is there and if they are available in CDs, no need of IE to download Opera too.



Yes, he is right if they *bundle* it as there would be no option to browse knowing that is a *deficiency* of the "superior" OS. The objection being raised here is that they lock it up with the OS. Why can't I download Firefox through IE and *uninstall* IE completely?


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## Sukhdeep Singh (Dec 14, 2007)

NucleusKore said:
			
		

> Why can't I download Firefox through IE and *uninstall* IE completely?



^ You can uninsall IE AFAIK

*img87.imageshack.us/img87/476/image1ah1.jpg


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## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

NucleusKore said:
			
		

> Yes, then they are obliged to give users a choice of browsers, media players and everything else.


 
Umm...When u start windows vista for the first time, you are given the Welcome center which clearly shows "Windows Market place". Click on it, & u can download any 3rd party browser from Windows market place....

*img110.imageshack.us/img110/7378/marketpi1.th.jpg

Oh wait...that opens a link in a "browser", but I forgot it will not be installed.*gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif

How will MS give user choice to download another browser? Ok, I get it....they should ask the user "Which browser do u want to install? IE Firefox or Opera". Once clicked on opera, Windows will download & install it automatically. But all of a sudden there is some problem in Opera, something is not working, the customar calls MS tech support just to get the answer..."Opera is not made by MS, we cannot support it, plz contact opera"...result, customar cursing MS...cos support doesn't matter at that time when the customar wants to read his E-Mail ASAP.



> That is not an excuse of integrating it so much that it cannot be removed.


 


> Can you uninstall Internet Explorer?


 
Add/Remove Windows component in control panel has been there since...................Windows 2000 *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/25.gif

Go ahead, remove WMP, IE 7, Windows Mail...whatever u need from Vista. The IE engine will still be there for Windows as Windows help etc depends on it.



> If any other browser is there and if they are available in CDs, no need of IE to download Opera too


 
This has been told long back in the "How to make Windows better" thread, Microsoft cannot bundle 3rd party products in Windows DVD. It's not there product & responsibility.


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## NucleusKore (Dec 14, 2007)

Let me see, I'll reboot try and be back


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## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

NucleusKore said:
			
		

> The objection being raised here is that they lock it up with the OS. Why can't I download Firefox through IE and *uninstall* IE completely?


 
Dude...seriously. This is Windows, not Linux. Stop trying to make Windows work & act like Linux. Windows is not Linux.

U want to uninstall a Windows component, u r free to do so in Windows itself.


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## din (Dec 14, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Ubuntu should be sued cos they bundle Firefox in Ubuntu because of which people don't get to use KDE Browser



LOL, that was really a funny comparison !!!

If you want KDE, why not using Kubuntu ? It is just like you chose between different types of Vista or different types of XP (small difference is for Ubuntu or Kubuntu, you have to pay a huge amount of Rs.50 or so  - for CD )


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## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

din said:
			
		

> If you want KDE, why not using Kubuntu ?


 
Noo...I want to use Adapt in Gnome, why don't I have an option to select between Adapt & Synaptic during Ubuntu Installation.

Also, you want Opera, who not go to Windows market place & select to download Opera.

Oh wait...you can't, I forgot there is no browser in Vista due to which Windows marketplace website will not open.

Tell me din, do u agree to these.

If Microsoft bundles something like synaptic with Windows, then they again will be sued cos...

1) It point to Windows Market place by default *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/10.gif

2) Windows Comes bundled with Microsoft Application Search by default, due to which customars don't get to use Google Application Search or Opera application search*gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif


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## NucleusKore (Dec 14, 2007)

Sukhdeep Singh said:
			
		

> ^ You can uninsall IE AFAIK
> 
> *img87.imageshack.us/img87/476/image1ah1.jpg



Doesn't work. 

I unchecked windows media player and internet explorer and clicked next, it did some bull. I then rebooted my system, yes all the icons have gone, but if I Run iexplore or wmplayer those software are very much there !

I am posting this from my internet explorer which was supposed to have been uninstalled!!!!


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## din (Dec 14, 2007)

I think the screenshot says - add or remove access to IE from desktop and start menu and not - add or remove internet explorer.


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## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

NucleusKore said:
			
		

> I unchecked windows media player and internet explorer and clicked next, it did some bull. I then rebooted my system, yes all the icons have gone, but if I Run iexplore or wmplayer those software are very much there !


 
An OS requirs a HTML & multimedia engine to work. Sorry, Windows depends on WMP & IE technology to work. 

OMG.....it must be eating 50 MB of hard disk space....damn, u so want your 50 MB back .... Sue MS for this 50 MB.

Hey, u know how to run the exe right now, suppose U don't know that & u don't know that there is a browser installed in your OS. U don't see any icons too. Now tell me how will u install Opera in your Windows 

And by the way, isn't that Windows XP? Sorry, I guess u forgot to read that i was talking about Vista all along.


----------



## NucleusKore (Dec 14, 2007)

din said:
			
		

> I think the screenshot says - add or remove access to IE from desktop and start menu and not - add or remove internet explorer.


Yes you are right, but see the posts above, they claim that you can remove both IE and WMP



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> An OS requirs a HTML & multimedia engine to work. Sorry, Windows depends on WMP & IE technology to work.
> 
> OMG.....it must be eating 50 MB of hard disk space....damn, u so want your 50 MB back .... Sue MS for this 50 MB.
> 
> Hey, u know how to run the exe right now, suppose U don't know that & u don't know that there is a browser installed in your OS. U don't see any icons too. Now tell me how will u install Opera in your Windows



Now you know why Microsoft gets sued again and again and again. Some people never learn......sheesh



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Sorry, I guess u forgot to read that i was talking about Vista all along.



Read the topic of the thread and the article again, they are not suing for Vista alone


----------



## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

NucleusKore said:
			
		

> Yes you are right, but see the posts above, they claim that you can remove both IE and WMP


 
Umm...why r u trying it on XP when I m talking about Vista.



> Now you know why Microsoft gets sued again and again and again. Some people never learn......sheesh


 
Gr8, how will u play a movie file in Windows without DirectShow engine on WMP?

How will u preview a file in Explorer, or open a CHM file without the IE Engine?

U r comparing Windows to Linux na, ok do one thing, go ahead & uninstall Konqurer from Kubuntu. Wht will it remove? Only the links....the KHTML engine will still be there.

Go ahead & remove amarok from KUbuntu, what will it remove? Amarok application but not the XINE engine that amarok uses.

Ok....go ahead & "try" to uninstall KHTML engine compleately from Kubuntu, let me know if u suceed 

Go ahead & remove XINE engine compleately from Kubuntu, let me know if your OS stays in a usable state for multimedia playback....

Like I said before, Windows is not linux, don't compare Windows with Linux saying "Linux can do that, why can't windows"


----------



## iMav (Dec 14, 2007)

well i make gas detector systems but the sensors i use are imported but there is a company which its own systems and sensors and they use their sensors in their detectors ... i think i should sue them why are they bundling their sensors in their detectors

or i should warn my chiefs not to start their new plan of making sensors coz we might get sued for using something in our products that we make ...  thanks for the eye opener


----------



## din (Dec 14, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Hey, u know how to run the exe right now, suppose U don't know that & u don't know that there is a browser installed in your OS. U don't see any icons too. Now tell me how will u install Opera in your Windows



I still didn't get that part. If he can't see IE in windows, why he can't install any other browser from any magazine CD and download Opera or any other software from internet ? Or its a must that people should use IE to download Opera ??

Also, I guess all download managers does not depend on IE, so he can't use any one of those to download Opera ? Or I am wrong on that ? Please enlighten me.


----------



## NucleusKore (Dec 14, 2007)

din said:
			
		

> I still didn't get that part. If he can't see IE in windows, why he can't install any other browser from any magazine CD and download Opera or any other software from internet ? Or its a must that people should use IE to download Opera ??
> 
> Also, I guess all download managers does not depend on IE, so he can't use any one of those to download Opera ? Or I am wrong on that ? Please enlighten me.



I have addressed that earlier
*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75676&page=3#57


----------



## iMav (Dec 14, 2007)

so who is stopping u from downloading what u want ...

i just bought a lappy while on my flight to chandigarh didnt carry any cds or dvds had to access internet chk my mail but hey i cant why -  opera sued ms coz their browser isnt as widely used

o wait im on my flight want to watch my cousin's marriage ceremony on cd on my new laptop but wtf i cant MS cant bundle their media player in the laptop ....

great logic guys ....


----------



## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

din said:
			
		

> I still didn't get that part. If he can't see IE in windows, why he can't install any other browser from any magazine CD


 
He can do that, good luck hunting for a magzine DVD with latest opera.



> and download Opera or any other software from internet ? Or its a must that people should use IE to download Opera ??


 
Din...sir tell me one thing, how will u open www.opera.com



> Also, I guess all download managers does not depend on IE, so he can't use any one of those to download Opera ? Or I am wrong on that ? Please enlighten me.


 
Download manager? But where will the user get a download manager from???????? If MS bundles DM, then they will again get sued by Orbit, or Speedbit , now tell me....should MS bundle a 1000 page manual with Windows with link written to download opera like www.opera.com/setup.exe
?


----------



## NucleusKore (Dec 14, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> ......but wtf i cant MS cant bundle their media player in the laptop ....



MS can bundle whatever they want provided they allow you to completely remove it from your system if you choose to do so.


----------



## narangz (Dec 14, 2007)

@din- Errr.... You need a link to download from download managers & links keep changing with new versions. Now how can you download without the link to the setup file? Ofcourse you can use FTP if you dont wanna use IE. But hey! Windows is not only for Geeks!

Now lets come to CD/DVD thingy. You mean to say if a user wants to access internet he must find a magazine CD/DVD to install a browser? Well I am sorry, its not linux. People want out of the box experience if they are paying for a product.


----------



## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

narangz said:
			
		

> @din- Errr.... You need a link to download from download managers & links keep changing with new versions. Now how can you download without the link to the setup file? Ofcourse you can use FTP. But hey! Windows is not only for Geeks!


 
How will u know the FTP address *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif

Again, MS should really give a 1000 page manual with links to every software out there. Just give the user more headache & then when it doesn't work, let the user curse MS.



> Now lets come to CD/DVD thingy. You mean to say if a user wants to access internet he must find a magazine CD/DVD to install a browser? Well I am sorry, its not linux. People want out of the box experience if they are paying for a product.


 
Best post of the day....*gigasmilies.googlepages.com/1.gif


----------



## iMav (Dec 14, 2007)

hey but i want ie ... i dont want anything else i dont opera i dont like it i prefer ie ... so what should i do am i forced to use opera or should curse MS coz they did not bundle IE with their OS


----------



## NucleusKore (Dec 14, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> hey but i want ie ... i dont want anything else i dont opera i dont like it i prefer ie ... so what should i do am i forced to use opera or should curse MS coz they did not bundle IE with their OS



Answered here
*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75676&page=4#74


----------



## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

I get what Nucleascore wants, he wants Windows to work like Linux...well, here is teh thing



1) I paid Rs 5000 for Vista home premium, i want it to work out of the box...I don't want to work on it for 5 dyas to get it to do work by sitting on net & installing everything on it & configuring it. If I wanted to do that, I would have switched to Linux.



2) He wants Windows to come only with the kernel & something like Synaptic...or kernel & a big wizard which asks "Which Shell? "Which file browser? " Which Multimedia Engine?". After clicking on 300 such pages, Windows finally starts to download content from Microsoft servers or any other server. Means I have to wait for 5 hrs to watch the HD DVD porn I bought 



3) Ok fine, I can bear with that....umm, so now we install in Windows. Oh wait...we can't...Windows is just the kernel, a kernel cannot download stuff from the net, we need some sort of HTML engine which is not there.....a file browser is not there either, where the hell do i enter the address FTP://Microsoft.com/Explorer 



4) nVidia just sued MS cos MS bundles there own drivers with Windows instead of asking the user "Do u want to download & install nvidia driver which will take 30 mins to download & then manual configuration or do u want to use the existing bundled drivers & later on download nvidia drivers automatically from Windows update which will take 4 mins"


----------



## narangz (Dec 14, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> How will u know the FTP address *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif



LOL


----------



## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

NucleusKore said:
			
		

> Answered here
> *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75676&page=4#74


 
How come that's the answer?

I m telling u dude, do this...



> U r comparing Windows to Linux na, ok do one thing, go ahead & uninstall Konqurer from Kubuntu. Wht will it remove? Only the links....the KHTML engine will still be there.
> 
> Go ahead & remove amarok from KUbuntu, what will it remove? Amarok application but not the XINE engine that amarok uses.
> 
> ...


----------



## NucleusKore (Dec 14, 2007)

Don't take me as a pirate. I paid Rs. 3500 for Windows XP OEM two years back. That doesn't change my position.


----------



## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

NucleusKore said:
			
		

> Don't take me as a pirate. I paid Rs. 3500 for Windows XP OEM two years back. That doesn't change my position.


 
U paid Rs 3500 for Windows XP. Now tell me, do u expect it to come without a web browser & media player preinstalled? Why did u "paid" for it...just so that u can start working on it right away & don't wanted to sit & configure the OS for 5 days like u do in case of Linux.

Like I said, stop comparing Linux with Windows here.


----------



## Garbage (Dec 14, 2007)

narangz said:
			
		

> gx_saurav said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Dude...

There are many mirrors which provides latest version of softwares on FTP.
And AFAIK, u can list the files on the FTP to see latest version through command line...

Don't you gx_saurav, narangz ??


----------



## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

shirish_nagar said:
			
		

> There are many mirrors which provides latest version of softwares on FTP.
> And AFAIK, u can list the files on the FTP to see latest version through command line...


 
Yes, we can....but where will we get to know the FTP address . Do you want MS to bundle a 1000 page manual with Vista retail DVDs, who will read that....not every one is a geek.


----------



## Garbage (Dec 14, 2007)

And specially for gx_saurav and iMav...

Please check this *FTP* site to Download Latest Version of Opera !!



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Yes, we can....but where will we get to know the FTP address . Do you want MS to bundle a 1000 page manual with Vista retail DVDs, who will read that....not every one is a geek.


Okaayy... tell me one thing...

U remember M$'s website ??
U remember Digit's website ??
U remember Google ??
U remember Hotmail / Live ??
U rememer .... ???

So, why can't u remember other ??


----------



## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

shirish_nagar said:
			
		

> And specially for gx_saurav and iMav...
> 
> Please check this *FTP* site to Download Latest Version of Opera !!


 
*gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif OMFG...dude, u & nuclearcore...don't u guys get it. Suppose I m a new Windows user who just bought a Windows Vista Home premium retail edition, with all components removed like EU wants MS to remove.

I m given only the kernel...& nothing else. First, how will I install stuff in it now? I will need to download it...*but where will i get to know the download address. *It should be written somewhere, right...so do u want MS to bundle a 1000 page manual with Vista retail DVD with address of every such FTP site written???? If you want MS to do that....then why do u curse MS for not giving good out of the box experience...

*How the hell will i get to know the address of Opera's FTP server.*

Sirish & Nucleascore, you want Windows to work like Linux works....don't do that, Windows is not linux.



> Okaayy... tell me one thing...
> 
> U remember M$'s website ??
> U remember Digit's website ??
> ...


 
Rofll....ok fine, suppose I enter www.digit.com in Comman line, now tell me, what should the page be opened in? it needs a browser to open, right? but according to your logic there is no browser installed in Windows, it needs to be installed first.....

& Sorry, No, I don't remember....ftp:/opera.com/win32/9.0/xxx84384384348384/setup.exe


----------



## Garbage (Dec 14, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif OMFG...dude, u & nuclearcore...don't u guys get it. Suppose I m a new Windows user who just bought a Windows Vista Home premium retail edition, with all components removed like EU wants MS to remove.
> 
> I m given only the kernel...& nothing else. First, how will I install stuff in it now? I will need to download it...*but where will i get to know the download address. *It should be written somewhere, right...so do u want MS to bundle a 1000 page manual with Vista retail DVD with address of every such FTP site written???? If you want MS to do that....then why do u curse MS for not giving good out of the box experience...
> 
> ...


I think, I've answered you...



			
				shirish_nagar said:
			
		

> Okaayy... tell me one thing...
> 
> U remember M$'s website ??
> U remember Digit's website ??
> ...


----------



## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

^^^^ sirish tell me, there is no browser installed in Windows, then where the hell will i enter www.microsoft.com

I quit, these Lingeeks have no idea how Windows work & since they know how to work on Linux only, they think they are Power Users *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/21.gif & think of us Windows users are noobs.

Dude, get real, the whole GUI of Linux is a rip of Windows & Mac OS. I m telling u, don't expect Windows to work the way Linux works. Even if MS only bundles the kernel & gives something like Synaptic only which asks u everything u want to install, they will still be sued cos MS is bundling there own Application installer, because of which users don't get to select whether they want to use Google Application installer or not. *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif


----------



## Garbage (Dec 14, 2007)

gx_saurav, I told you that U can list files and folders on FTP (same as you explore on your local drives). And I think, people can search for the files there.

And, there are some FTPs which provides many softwares @ one place.
And try to FTP some popular download sites. They have their FTP servers too parallel to HTTP servers.

I think, u'll got it now !


----------



## din (Dec 14, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> An OS requirs a HTML & multimedia engine to work.



OK, I agree, windows need html engine and multimedia engine to work as an OS. Does it need IE specifically and WMP specifically for working ? ?

Second thing - What I see from the heated up discussion - nothing wrong in bundling, nothing wrong in un-rthical ways to kill competition and MS need IE and WMP to run OS.

This is not for a flame war, but just a thought. You strongly believe the above points. Why not asking MS to aruge these points in courts ? As you already know MS failed in courts for all issues mentioned above. If you strongly believe these are valid points and nothing wrong in that, why not sending an email to MS telling them to argue with your posts ?

I think MS has got very very expert advocates, especially who are very good in all these. Still they failed, court order was against them. And you still think MS was right ?

Sorry, didn't get that logic ! May be opponents bribed the lawyers and may be the court too make verdict against MS ?


----------



## Garbage (Dec 14, 2007)

gx_saurav, Do u know what is FTP ?? Bcoz seeing ur posts, I doubt that U DON'T KNOW WHAT FTP IS !!!

For ur knowledge, we can browse FTP sites from command line.
Now don't tell me that sue M$ for providing command prompt !


----------



## narangz (Dec 14, 2007)

^^Arrey bhai kya opera hi 1 browser hai jo logon ne download karna hai? What about newbies? Windows is not for only for Geeks!!! Not everyone knows commands! Windows is NOT Linux! Read my post again in which I mentioned FTP. Even there I mentioned this.


----------



## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

shirish_nagar said:
			
		

> gx_saurav, I told you that U can list files and folders on FTP (same as you explore on your local drives). And I think, people can search for the files there
> 
> nd, there are some FTPs which provides many softwares @ one place.
> And try to FTP some popular download sites. They have their FTP servers too parallel to HTTP servers.


 
What the hell....r u nominating yourself for Noob of the week award...I know all this, but I just want to ask u one thing....where should I enter the FTP adress when there is no browser or File manager bundled by default in Windows.


----------



## Garbage (Dec 14, 2007)

It's not all about Opera. It's that M$ is NOT following the rules for web designing  the IE.


----------



## NucleusKore (Dec 14, 2007)

din said:
			
		

> Why not asking MS to aruge these points in courts ? As you already know MS failed in courts for all issues mentioned above. If you strongly believe these are valid points and nothing wrong in that, why not sending an email to MS telling them to argue with your posts ?
> 
> I think MS has got very very expert advocates, especially who are very good in all these. Still they failed, court order was against them. And you still think MS was right ?
> 
> Sorry, didn't get that logic ! May be opponents bribed the lawyers and may be the court too make verdict against MS ?



Hmmm, another interesting point you have raised. But can the opposition bribe even if they wanted to? You know Microsoft's muscle  I am sure they hired the best lawyers.


----------



## din (Dec 14, 2007)

I still didn't get it. If IE is not there, why people can't spend 10 or 15 mins to install another browser from a CD ? Whats wrong in that ? When I was on dial-up, most softwares I used were from magazine CDs, whats so bad about it ? ?

FTP may be tough, but why not an alternattive browser ? ? Oce you get browser, get a download manager from CD or internet, once you have these two, why the address etc, as everything can be accessed through that browser.

I still didn't get the point in  - We need IE at any cost for downloading / browsing anything over internet !


----------



## narangz (Dec 14, 2007)

@NucleusKore Answer- Biased EU


----------



## Garbage (Dec 14, 2007)

gx_saurav, see post 92 please... and tell, why I shouldn't nominate you for NOTW ??


----------



## NucleusKore (Dec 14, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> What the hell....r u nominating yourself for Noob of the week award...I know all this, but I just want to ask u one thing....where should I enter the FTP adress when there is no browser or File manager bundled by default in Windows.



In a shell, IT IS POSSIBLE
*www.connectedhomemag.com/Networking/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=25034



			
				shirish_nagar said:
			
		

> It's not all about Opera. It's that M$ is NOT following the rules for web designing  the IE.



Yes, even the article says that


----------



## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

din said:
			
		

> OK, I agree, windows need html engine and multimedia engine to work as an OS. Does it need IE specifically and WMP specifically for working ? ?


 
Nope, but Windows is a product of MS & MS bundles these by default.



> This is not for a flame war, but just a thought. You strongly believe the above points. Why not asking MS to aruge these points in courts ? As you already know MS failed in courts for all issues mentioned above. If you strongly believe these are valid points and nothing wrong in that, why not sending an email to MS telling them to argue with your posts ?


 
Because it is EU & we all know how biased is EU towards MS. Windows XP N & Windows Vista N are the biggest OEM flops in the PC industry, I hope u know that.



> It's not all about Opera. It's that M$ is NOT following the rules for web designing the IE.


 
Don't turn the topic, we have already made it clear that MS needs to follow standard to which even I agree, It;s under work in form of IE 8



> For ur knowledge, we can browse FTP sites from command line.
> Now don't tell me that sue M$ for providing command prompt


 
Yes, we can....but Where from will u get to know about the FTP address? Like I said, do u want MS to bundle a 100 page manual?


----------



## NucleusKore (Dec 14, 2007)

narangz said:
			
		

> @NucleusKore Answer- Biased EU



Oh yes a biased continent, so much for the numbers. Don't forget the problems they had in the US.


----------



## narangz (Dec 14, 2007)

din said:
			
		

> I still didn't get it. If IE is not there, why people can't spend 10 or 15 mins to install another browser from a CD ? Whats wrong in that ? When I was on dial-up, most softwares I used were from magazine CDs, whats so bad about it ? ?
> 
> FTP may be tough, but why not an alternattive browser ? ? Oce you get browser, get a download manager from CD or internet, once you have these two, why the address etc, as everything can be accessed through that browser.
> 
> I still didn't get the point in  - We need IE at any cost for downloading / browsing anything over internet !



If I pay, say 5000 bucks, and I still can't access internet without finding those mag CDs I will not be satisfied. MS can't bundle 3rd party browser because of support issues. The have to provide a browser. 

In any case IE7 is good browser. I understand that they should follow W3C guidelines in coding. On the other hand I also use Opera. Infact I use both IE7 & Opera.


----------



## din (Dec 14, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Dude, get real, the whole GUI of Linux is a rip of Windows & Mac OS.


WOW, I think I didn't waste time tonight by going through the thread !! This is an excellent information. Thank you man ! But I think you said only part of the truth  Do not tell those lin geeks, I will tell you a secret. Only myself and goobi know that. 

[secret]
The whole linux and mac OS are rip-off from windows !!! They were in a rush and forgot to replace even the word - Windows - from many places. You can see 'Windows manager' etc at many places ! I will be sending an email to Billji regarding this and I am sure he wil ltake care of it in court
[/secret]


----------



## narangz (Dec 14, 2007)

NucleusKore said:
			
		

> Oh yes a biased continent, so much for the numbers. Don't forget the problems they had in the US.



Tell me then why no anti-trust suites against Apple? Aren't they bundling applications with OS X?


----------



## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

NucleusKore said:
			
		

> In a shell, IT IS POSSIBLE
> *www.connectedhomemag.com/Networking/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=25034


 
So, you want me to pay Rs 5000 for my OS, & then read the manual in which this process is written



> Windows XP's FTP service installs as part of Microsoft Internet Information Services (IIS) 5.1; the FTP host is available only in XP Professional Edition, and the command-line client is available in both XP Pro and XP Home Edition. To reach the FTP client, click Start, then click Run. Type
> ftpin the resulting dialog box.
> A useful command-line function available through the Windows FTP client lets you write scripts that execute FTP file transfers and automate FTP tasks. The command
> ftp -?returns the line
> ...


 
Sorry, Windows is not Linux. Windows is not only for geeks..

Hey, I just have the kernel, where do i read this tutorial from?


----------



## din (Dec 14, 2007)

din said:
			
		

> OK, I agree, windows need html engine and multimedia engine to work as an OS. Does it need IE specifically and WMP specifically for working ? ?





			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Nope



Great. Thats what the court also decided ! Now you got the point. MS Windows does not need IE specifically or WMP specifically, still they bundled it. Why ? Simple, they wanted to kill competition which is against the laws !!


----------



## gxsaurav (Dec 14, 2007)

din said:
			
		

> Great. Thats what the court also decided ! Now you got the point. MS Windows does not need IE specifically or WMP specifically, still they bundled it. Why ? Simple, they wanted to kill competition which is against the laws !!


 
Maruti also bundled there own car seat covers with Alto, but they don't need Maruti made seat cover to work. Still maruti provides these out of the box so that customar can later on replace them with whatever they want.

I give up, last 2 pages I have mentioned the same thing again & again & Lingeeks don't understand it. They want Windows to work like Linux which is not possible.

If EU wants MS to give the user an option to remove IE engine & Directshow engine from Windows compleately, then do give us a replacement DirectShow engine plz...oh! wait...nothing will work as they all rely on DirectShow.


----------



## din (Dec 14, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Because it is EU & we all know how biased is EU towards MS.



LOL, GX sir, you are a very senior member here ! You remember the Netscape - IE issue I hope. Was that EU ? You know which court gave order to split MS into two that was EU ? You know there are a lot of court orders against MS, they are not all EU. A lot of coutries made verdicts against MS in various issues, that does not mean that those are all biased. Every country has its own laws. In India you just can't marry at the age of 15. Now if someone whos just 15 say - the court is very partial and support my parents who stand against my marriage - how it wil llook like ?

Its business, when we do it in US, obey US rules, when it is Europe, obey their ruls, when its in India obey .. err, try to bribe and try to make people silent by $$$$$$$$


----------



## QwertyManiac (Dec 14, 2007)

narangz said:
			
		

> You can't expect newbies to know about FTP & how it works. They know how to launch a browser and download stuff.


Meh. Right, you said it.


----------



## Garbage (Dec 14, 2007)

din said:
			
		

> WOW, I think I didn't waste time tonight by going through the thread !!


Me also think same !! *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/62.gif

@gx_saurav...
SORRY dude.. I lost... Peace now...
(If you have some spare time, then please read FTP Guide.)



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Maruti also bundled there own car seat covers with Alto, but they don't need Maruti made seat cover to work. Still maruti provides these out of the box *so that customar can later on replace them with whatever they want.*


I can replace my car's seat covers completely. Can I remove IE COMPLETELY from Windows and REPLACE with SOMETHING ELSE ??


----------



## narangz (Dec 14, 2007)

QwertyManiac said:
			
		

> Meh. Right, you said it.



*www.harshj.com/2007/12/13/opera-enters-the-anti-microsoft-list/


----------



## RCuber (Dec 14, 2007)

Chapter 1
Sue M$ for including WMP .. *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/19.gif

Result ... M$ removes WMP from European version of windows.. *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/4.gif

whats next.. 

Now people start to criticize M$ for not including a default media player *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/35.gif

Chapter 2 
Sue M$ cause they are giving out default Browser.. *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/19.gif

( if successful )M$ removes IE from European version of windows.. *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/4.gif

whats next .. 

Now people start to criticize M$ for not including a default browser *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/35.gif

I personally hate IE, but this doesnot mean that M$ should not give their own product with their own OS.. *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/68.gif*gigasmilies.googlepages.com/106.gif


----------



## narangz (Dec 14, 2007)

Rightly said, Charan!


----------



## din (Dec 14, 2007)

@Charan

It is not about an end user. He may be happy having IE with Windows or having WMP. But when we are doing business, we have to follow certain rules and these rules are not in favor of any or not blindly against any.

As you very well know, MS bundled IE with windows not coz they love the customers a lot or the OS will not work witjout IE as it is (even GX agreed that). That was a trick to kill competition which Netscape was bringing up. Same with WMP. So end user may criticise MS but they have to follow the rules coz every company should get market and not just MS.


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Dec 14, 2007)

well when a User is buying Windows he is consciously , buying a Product from a company and he expects it to include all the basic tools .

So how can u say it is killing competition because a company will sell it's own products and will try to give the best offer to the user .

Somewhere down the line we might see Sony suing Nokia because it is bundling their OS along with their latest N Series phone . According to sony , nokia is only selling the phone to the consumer not the OS and thus thus the consumer should be given the optino to choose which OS he wants to install on his mobile .

I hope you get it this time round .


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## din (Dec 15, 2007)

@Zeeshan Quireshi

I guess you are a developer and you know things even better !

Just for example, suppose you are making a media player for your friends in C# (just an example, I do not know if thats possible lol). You really love your friends and want to give them the best. MS does not allow you to put certain add on in your app for some reason - adding which would have made your app excellent. MS business law or restriction says you can't.

Now, will you go for adding that add-on in your app ignoring MS order as you love your friends ? Or you give them the app without the add-on ?

It is as simple as such.

When issues like bundling or un-ethical practices or killing competition comes, think at business point of view and not at end user point of view. Think of other comapnies not just MS and that wil make things very simple ! Coz every company should get the same market openings and there is no justification for killing competition by dirty tricks. Else it will be extreme monopoly and that will eventully turn very bad to end users as well.


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## chesss (Dec 15, 2007)

Haavard's blog has a lil FAQ to answer all your questions.


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## praka123 (Dec 15, 2007)

I remember how netscape disappeared long back  In 2000,anti-trust in us,now with EU,same time try to destroy Linux and OSS(SCO FUDs,patent fuds).whaow!M$ is such a nice company for a fan boy.

In Linux,i can remove whatever package i want,even the package management for that reason(dpkg!),not to say that every browser can be completely removed without a trace!

Now does dear Microwsoft allows this in their windsows?NO!they just bundled ie to kill netscape at that time.IE or outlook or wmp etc CANNOT BE REMOVED IN NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES,even when hacked to remove also these share components are there!

I know that mac os x have default safari browser which is based on kde's khtml(konqueror) forked webkit engine.now in mac also afaik it can be achievable to remove safari and webkit.does windows allows that?no,a big NO!.

Just take ur own time to settle down with the facts.


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## gxsaurav (Dec 15, 2007)

din said:
			
		

> LOL, GX sir, you are a very senior member here ! You remember the Netscape - IE issue I hope.


 
Microsoft Made the IE Engine & integrated it in Windows. Nothing wrong it in it.

They made it an integral part of OS, nothing wrong in it. You also cannot compleately remove the webkit engine from Mac OS X & KHTML engine from KDE, so why aren't u *****ing about that.



> Can I remove IE COMPLETELY from Windows and REPLACE with SOMETHING ELSE ??


 
No, why would u need to? If you are refereing to IE engine then sorry, if you are refering to IE 7 software, then in Vista yes u can remove & replace with Opera Firefox.



> As you very well know, MS bundled IE with windows not coz they love the customers a lot or the OS will not work witjout IE


 
The OS will work without IE software, but cannot work without IE Engine. MS bundled IE with Windows so that customar can connect & browse the net out of the box, & this better out of the box experience attracts customars towards Windows product.



> Just for example, suppose you are making a media player for your friends in C# (just an example, I do not know if thats possible lol). You really love your friends and want to give them the best. MS does not allow you to put certain add on in your app for some reason - adding which would have made your app excellent. MS business law or restriction says you can't.
> 
> Now, will you go for adding that add-on in your app ignoring MS order as you love your friends ? Or you give them the app without the add-on ?


 
Situation like this does not & cannot exist.



> When issues like bundling or un-ethical practices or killing competition comes, think at business point of view and not at end user point of view. Think of other comapnies not just MS and that wil make things very simple ! Coz every company should get the same market openings


 
Those who want Opera or Firefox, can easily install them from Microsoft's own Market Place, what else do u want. It cannot come preinstalled in Windows. Period.



> In Linux,i can remove whatever package i want,even the package management for that reason(dpkg!),not to say that every browser can be completely removed without a trace!
> 
> I know that mac os x have default safari browser which is based on kde's khtml(konqueror) forked webkit engine.now in mac also afaik it can be achievable to remove safari and webkit.does windows allows that?no,a big NO


 
Browser = Frontend + Backend HTML engine. You can remove the frontend, but not the backend in both Windows & Linux.

In Mac OS X, you can remove the Safari browser but not the Webkit engine.


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## din (Dec 15, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Microsoft Made the IE Engine & integrated it in Windows. Nothing wrong it in it.
> 
> They made it an integral part of OS, nothing wrong in it.


Sir, it is not wrong - *for you* !! Thats is what MS also thought first. They thought doing un-ethical business is not at all wrong. But later they realised it is wrong ! And court found it is wrong and the verdict was against MS - Simple ! 


			
				din said:
			
		

> When issues like bundling or un-ethical practices or killing competition comes, think at business point of view and not at end user point of view. Think of other comapnies not just MS and that wil make things very simple ! Coz every company should get the same market openings





			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Those who want Opera or Firefox, can easily install them from Microsoft's own Market Place, what else do u want. It cannot come preinstalled in Windows. Period.


I am not sure whether you didn't really understand what I meant or it is iMavism (pretending ...) 

Anyway, what I meant is, bundling IE may be good at consumer point of view. But when you are into business, it is wrong. Nothing to do with MS market place or any other markets in India lol.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> In Mac OS X, you can remove the Safari browser but not the Webkit engine.


Exactly, So browser front end part is gone right ? But in Windows, at a normal person point of view removing IE is impossible !




			
				din said:
			
		

> As you very well know, MS bundled IE with windows not coz they love the customers a lot or the OS will not work witjout IE





			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> The OS will work without IE software, but cannot work without IE Engine.



Now we both are talking the same thing 

Also another point.

World is not going to end in a day if MS stop shipping IE as browser with Windows ! Just as an example, when you buy some hardware, they give driver in CD, some might be there in Windows and some might not be. If MS stop giving IE, PC sellers will start giving browsers in CDs, not a big deal. 

As I mentioned, I still didn't get the answer. Why installing a browser or any other sotware from a CD - takes 10 or 15 mins - is a really bad idea ? ?


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Dec 15, 2007)

@din , i don't really understand how it is unethical to provide a browser with your OS(it is infact an integral part of the OS) when the user himself is buying an OS and he knows what browser will be included in it .


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## iMav (Dec 15, 2007)

oh its very bad why is it bad its just very bad to bundle anything with ur OS ... next they will say MS should not bundle notepad with Windows there are other text editors - consumers want choice; then they will say MS should not bundle a firewall with the OS - why because there are other firewall makers and it is not ethical; then they will say MS should not bundle any icons with windows there are other icon packs available; then they will say MS should not bundle windows gallery because there are other photo managers; then they will say windows should not have bundled paint in it there are other image editors 

lagey raho din .... im sorry as a consumer i am against any such choices fcuk the choices i want my OS do play music; browse the net; be secure; have a basic image editor & image viewer if u dont want and please use Linux 

just as every1 shouts this is linux and not windows this is os x and not windows same way this is windows ... take it or leave it  

*opera wants publicity and doesnt give a damn about consumers if they really did then they wouldv had opera in ubuntu and not firefox and they would have also sued Apple for safari *... but they want cheap publicity and they know MS is an easy target in front of the EUAM (European Union Against Microsoft)


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## din (Dec 15, 2007)

@Zeeshan Quireshi

Thought you already know the history. But it seems you missed United States v. Microsoft details ...

@iMav, The Devil's Advocate 

As I mentioned before, MS lawyers (Bill's Advocates) are expert than we think, still they couldn't prove MS is right ! So no point in a fight on consumer point of view. It has nothing to do with end user. Period


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## iMav (Dec 15, 2007)

it has everything to do with the end user .... if u like to spend hours downloading stupid packages and installing them please use linux 

if opera was in this for the end consumer choice then they should have sued Apple for safari which they did not why coz they know "dal nahi galne wali" and they would have even sued canonical for bundling firefox in the cd version but then again they know doing so would result in huge consumer backlash .... suing apple & OSS results in huge backlash but suing MS gets support from Apple & OSS coz its a common enemy and easy target ... pretty much like prakash only throwing tantrums about vista having drm but not saying a word about apple or intel or amd 

dual standards & cheap publicity thats it; it has nothing to do with consumer choices  and this u know as good as i do  Period.


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## infra_red_dude (Dec 15, 2007)

Solution - 

1) Include shortcuts on desktop:

a) Install Internet Explorer (from media)
b) Install Windows Media Player (from media)
c) Install other browsers (direct them to windows market place, after installing barebones IE, after downloading and setting the default browser remove barebones IE)
d) Install other media players (direct them to windows market place, after installing barebones IE)

Problem solved 

2) Yes, as everyone has agreed MS needs to follow the standards and I hope things will change with IE8.

Also someone said: Windows is not Linux. We were trying to tell the same but with the first and last words interchanged! 

PS: Sorry guys, been sick!


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## iMav (Dec 15, 2007)

i got a better solution:

MS Windows Vista EU Edition-

No Media Player
No Firewall & Defender
No Browser
No Drivers

cost: same as vista ultimate


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## infra_red_dude (Dec 15, 2007)

^^^ Vista already has too many editions...


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## narangz (Dec 15, 2007)

LOL! 7 Pages & still going strong.


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## iMav (Dec 15, 2007)

yup 1 more for EUAM


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## Garbage (Dec 15, 2007)

narangz said:
			
		

> LOL! 7 Pages & still going strong.


Do u think, they are serious ???


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## naveen_reloaded (Dec 16, 2007)

i still dont get it ... in european country .. why are they soooo concerned  with ms ???

even ms released a modified version of thier os ...

wait are they caring wht a ferrari tyres are??? or wht engine material they use??? oir the seat leather ???

its justa product and they are selling it ... wht the helll is the problem..

didnt ubuntu come with firefox... now why shouldnt ie sue them for not telling unbuntu customers that there is also other browser to use???

IF MS DOES ANYTHING THAT WILL BE SUED.... WHT A F`KING WORLD...


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## The_Devil_Himself (Dec 16, 2007)

naveen_reloaded said:
			
		

> i still dont get it ... in european country .. why are they soooo concerned  with ms ???


 simple cos they don't give a damn how big a company is, consumers come first to them.They care about their citizens.It is as simple as it gets.Europe in not India where you are sure to be run over by big fishes.
They are Sane.



> even ms released a modified version of thier os ...


 I have lost count how many different versions they have made.



> wait are they caring wht a ferrari tyres are??? or wht engine material they use??? oir the seat leather ???


??? sure they do care??man dont you know most good care makers are based in Europe?



> its justa product and they are selling it ... wht the helll is the problem..


 If the product doesn't comply with their standards then they won't allow it to be sold.And thats what governments\courts are for--regulating and controlling.



> didnt ubuntu come with firefox... now why shouldnt ie sue them for not telling unbuntu customers that there is also other browser to use???


 My favourite question.Here are the answers and please cram them before you ask the same question again.
1.Ubuntu and most Linux distros are free!,believe me!
2.Ubuntu users are not idiots and they do know about other browsers too.And there is this utility which people call synaptic through which you can download and install thousands of softwares,all free of cost of course,and there are others browsers to download too.And I am sure if M$ provide a Linux version of IE then ubuntu can consider adding it to their repos.
3.Not all Linux distros come with firefox as default web browser,hell even kubuntu has a different browser iirc.



> IF MS DOES ANYTHING THAT WILL BE SUED.... WHT A F`KING WORLD...


Agree,if M$ does anything stupid or wrong it will be sued(in saner countries).And I\YOU\WE cannot decide whats wrong or right--there are judges who are much more experienced and knowledgeable to take care of this part.

not only M$ but every big company which has a near monopoly over any market should act responsible and provide room for healthy competition,and competition can never be bad for end consumers i.e. us all.killing and ruthlessly killing competition through unethical ways is not at all appreciated.maintain high standards and caring about consumers go a long way rather that perpetuating their worthless agendas.


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## iMav (Dec 16, 2007)

The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> simple cos they don't give a damn how big a company is, consumers come first to them.They care about their citizens.It is as simple as it gets.Europe in not India where you are sure to be run over by big fishes.
> They are Sane.





			
				The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> My favourite question.Here are the answers and please cram them before you ask the same question again.
> 1.Ubuntu and most Linux distros are free!,believe me!
> 2.Ubuntu users are not idiots and they do know about other browsers too.And there is this utility which people call synaptic through which you can download and install thousands of softwares,all free of cost of course,and there are others browsers to download too.And I am sure if M$ provide a Linux version of IE then ubuntu can consider adding it to their repos.


 when it is linux people know about other browsers and when its windows the same "sane" people dont know about other browsers  stupidity in ur own comments 

if the europeans are so sane then cant they download other browsers  



			
				The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> I have lost count how many different versions they have made.


 no matter how many different vresions vista has even if u add all windows versions u can comapre with the ten thousand differetn linux distros ... u want to edit vdos - get studio ubuntu; u have changed from windows - try ubuntu or fedeora or suse; ur a intermediate linux user try debain; u want kde try kubuntu; u want gnome try ubuntu  dude if ur talking about versions ook at the the different distros available for linux want eye candy try dream linux try slacware try slax .... now compare this to vista - want for office - business; for home - home premium; want no eye candy - basic; want everything - ultimate ... simple to understand easy to choose ....  think before bringing up stupid points 




			
				The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> If the product doesn't comply with their standards then they won't allow it to be sold.And thats what governments\courts are for--regulating and controlling.


 ya right safari & apple comply with all standards 



			
				The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> Agree,if M$ does anything stupid or wrong it will be sued(in saner countries).And I\YOU\WE cannot decide whats wrong or right--there are judges who are much more experienced and knowledgeable to take care of this part.


 Apple kare toh chamatkar MS kare toh balatkar .... ur saneness my a$$ its easy target MS therefore  

remmber the big bulls eye on MS's a$$ customers ethics standards are all bull **** means to get cheap publicity ...

we cant beat u so we will sue u 


			
				The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> not only M$ but every big company which has a near monopoly over any market should act responsible and provide room for healthy competition,and competition can never be bad for end consumers i.e. us all.killing and ruthlessly killing competition through unethical ways is not at all appreciated.maintain high standards and caring about consumers go a long way rather that perpetuating their worthless agendas.


 blah blah blah blah u want other browsers did MS dis-allow u from installing opera; downloading opera; or using opera or setting opera as default browser .... no it didnt so all the above bull sh!t about healthy competition is rather naive 

*now cram all these answers before asking the same question*


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## The_Devil_Himself (Dec 16, 2007)

> My favourite question.Here are the answers and please cram them before you ask the same question again.
> 1.Ubuntu and most Linux distros are free!,believe me!
> 2.Ubuntu users are not idiots and they do know about other browsers too.And *there is this utility which people call synaptic through which you can download and install thousands of softwares,all free of cost of course,and there are others browsers to download too.*And I am sure if M$ provide a Linux version of IE then ubuntu can consider adding it to their repos.
> 3.Not all Linux distros come with firefox as default web browser,hell even kubuntu has a different browser iirc.






			
				iMav said:
			
		

> *now cram all these answers before asking the same question*


*
1.I dint ask any question,I was answering actually.
2.I already know it all boy,afterall every 2nd of your post is like this only.SO you can say I have crammed it so that I can skip your posts without reading them.

*


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## iMav (Dec 16, 2007)

ah whats the point of underlining that part 

and windows is not linux


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## anandk (Dec 16, 2007)

_"Didn't know 'web standards' were laws which had to be followed; and in any case Windows users have always had the option of using Opera, Firefox or Safari for that matter. Now I wonder if Opera is planning to file a suit against Apple too, for tying its Safari browser to its OS ! Opera, in my opinion is a quality browser; but then, *was the move propelled by the fact that it was unable to dent the browser market*, esp with Firefox's trot turning to a sprint ?"_


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Dec 16, 2007)

THat's the same question i wanted to ask .

Windows users too can download Other browsers alongside , same as apple and mac , then why only windows , why not the whole industry ?

Secondly , as i pointed earlier the default homepage of opera should then not be opera.com , the user should be given a choice to choose his own homepage rather than set one for him urself .

@The Devil Himself , mate could you answer these questions with un-ambiguous answers ?


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## The_Devil_Himself (Dec 16, 2007)

^^nope,I answer the questions I feel like answering.
Besides I don't know much about apple and macs,I guess jobs has maintained a closed approach right from the beginning.I think it is unethical to do so,and also the fact that apple dint release its OS for all platforms which are very well capable of running it.They want to create an aura of exclusivity to sell their highly priced macs.

My point was just that don't compare M$ and Linux.Linux do provide alternate browsers and there are more browsers to be downloaded in repos directly from synaptic which doesn't require any web browser.

I myself use Firefox and like it better than opera.

Lastly,you cannot claim that people\organizations are suing M$ just for publicity,there are judges and courts to decide.Even here you can sue anyone if you think 'they' are doing something wrong or they are indirectly stopping you from developing.Its kind of a fundamental right.they here means big-wig monopolist companies.

And did ya forget M$ lost most of the cases?


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## infra_red_dude (Dec 16, 2007)

I think its not correct to sue only MS for bundling browser. Apple stands a favorite contender. If MS is sued then by every means Apple should be sued too.

Mebbe, as I said, they should create a stripped down IE only for Windows market place and haf it installed all the time. Call it, say, Windows Market Place Explorer. Let it haf the ability to only browse Windows Market Place and download. Users of U3 Flash drives can relate this to U3 Software Browser. This would really solve all these problems.

Secondly, those of you who say that even Linux distros should be sued should understand that the Linux distro makers DO NOT make Firefox! This is the crux of the debate. If people do not comprehend this reason behind the case against MS then there is no use posting here.

And regarding all those different distros, they are there only to help users. A normal Ubuntu user can install and KDE and be comfortable after switching from Windows. He/She can install all the multimedia packages from package manager and make it an AV studio (no need to install pclinux os or ubuntu studio). The only reason they exist is that they haf all the tools pre-installed. Other than that there is no difference. And I think its better if Linux and related things are kept outta this thread. It will only lead to offtopic posts and diversion.


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## sakumar79 (Dec 16, 2007)

Personally, while I agree that IE really needs to work on being standard compliant, I am not yet convinced about the first part of the anti-trust case... Heres my view (looking at both business perspective and end user perspective) that they may not be valid...

Argument 1: IE should not be bundled with Windows

Flaw (Business POV): Every (or at least most) OS bundles either its own browser, or another browser... While in the case of Linux, the choices are provided because of OSS philosophy, Apple bundles its own browser Safari with the Mac OS... So, if IE should not be bundled with Windows, similar restrictions should be placed on Apple... Otherwise, the EU ruling will be partial.
Flaw (End User POV): The end user wants a good experience out of the box. Every OS is now aiming for that... If IE is not bundled with Windows, this cannot be achieved.

Solution 1: IE should be bundled with Windows
Solution 2: During installation, Windows should ask user (just like in Linux) for choice of browser. The problem with this solution is that there are currently two or three major browsers other than IE for windows, but in the future, there may be more... It will not be possible to provide all these choices, and this will leave MS wide open for lawsuit by certain browser makers if theirs is not available for installation with Windows while others are. Also, any technical problem with say Opera or Firefox should be the responsibility of the corresponding software company/group... If during installation of Windows, you get a BSOD due to Opera or Firefox installation, who gets the blame? MS is not like Linux and the ignorant user will end up blaming MS for creating the problem.


Argument 2: IE may be bundled with Windows, but there should be an option to remove it.

Flaw (Business POV): Unless the presence of IE hinders the installation of other browsers or reduces the efficiency with which they perform, how the hell does whether IE is present or not affect another browser?
Flaw (End User POV): Same as for business POV...

Solution: Throw the first part of the anti-trust case out the window and concentrate on the second to get standards compliancy in IE. This should not only be forced upon in IE 8, but MS should be forced to provide updates to IE6 and IE7 to make them standards compliant. However, knowing EU's position against MS, I would daresay that the first part also will get another silly ruling... The EU  should stop just thinking about business point of view and start thinking how it affects the end user.

Arun


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## infra_red_dude (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^ I guess implementing the first part shouldn't be a problem with the solution I posted. It will avoid any future lawsuits against MS and MS can live with peace of mind, at least in this case


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Dec 16, 2007)

The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> My point was just that don't compare M$ and Linux.Linux do provide alternate browsers and there are more browsers to be downloaded in repos directly from synaptic which doesn't require any web browser.


 But the fact is that most linux distros do bundle a browser with them .

Also , ever heard of windows marketplace , you can install Firefox or any other browser from there without opening IE .


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## The_Devil_Himself (Dec 16, 2007)

thats why I dont want to answer.You guys will simply wont understand.You guys turn it into Linux vs. M$.
Why don't you get that Linux distros are not commercial products?Even you can make distro with choicest of softwares you like and distribute it.

And are you sure about Windows market place providing firefox?I seriously doubt it.


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Dec 16, 2007)

Doesn't matter is software is commercial or non-commercial , the fact is that it is bundling a browser , as said by you is unethical and is killing competition .

And i'm not turning it into a Linux vs MS debate , i was simply taking an example of an alternate OS other than windows .


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## sakumar79 (Dec 16, 2007)

@The_Devil_Himself, Here is the link in Windows Market place for Firefox - *www.windowsmarketplace.com/details.aspx?view=info&itemid=2847739 and for Opera - *www.windowsmarketplace.com/details.aspx?view=info&itemid=2846035

However, what is strange that it is located under  
All Products> Utilities>  Updates & Patches instead of All Products> Communication & Internet>  Browsers which is where I would look for it... However, it did come up on search.

Arun


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## gxsaurav (Dec 16, 2007)

The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> Why don't you get that Linux distros are not commercial products?


 
Sorry, Come again? What is XenderOS & Lispire then?



> And are you sure about Windows market place providing firefox?I seriously doubt it.


 
Firefox on Windows Market place


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## The_Devil_Himself (Dec 16, 2007)

^^did ya read my earlier posts?I have mentioned everywhere 'most distros are free\non-commercial" but I got fed up telling the same thing again and again.

And yea thanks for the link,nice to see this.


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## iMav (Dec 17, 2007)

if a product is non-commercial it has the right to bundle what ever it wants  what a logic devil


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## Hitboxx (Dec 17, 2007)

Micro$oft responds to Opera..


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## moshel (Dec 17, 2007)

hey guys u knw wat...this wud actually create a market for "Windows Accessories".......

so it wud be like...
1. u purchase windows (no browser, email client, messenger, search options, media player, file compressors, no themes..etc)..u only get the basic gui.

2. u select ur browser
a. IE 10.1
b. opera
c. firefox.
d. etc etc.

select media player
a. WMP 13
b. Itunes
c. Real Media
d. vlc media player.
e. etc etc.

and so on....anyone wanna join in on my idea and make a case against microsoft in EU....there are high expenses involved in the beginning...but once we win the case we will earn $$$MOOOLLLLLAAAAAHHHH$$$$$$$


well jokes apart....
i love opera and wud prefer it anyday over IE...but this is really ridiculous...i think opera felt maybe as eu is against MS$ they will win the case....


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## Indyan (Dec 17, 2007)

*Opera Soft Explains itself*.


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## Hitboxx (Dec 17, 2007)

Indyan said:
			
		

> *Opera Soft Explains itself*.


Thanks.


> Bundling in itself is not a problem, but it becomes a problem when a dominant player in the market uses bundling in combination with other tactics to prevent others from competing in the market.
> 
> Please note that *Safari and Firefox are very good at standards compliance. If they didn't have to deal with MSIE compatibility*, they (and Opera) could have spent even more time on improving their standards support.


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## iMav (Dec 17, 2007)

why not add a notepad; a image viewer; an address book; a sound recorder; a messenger to ur list maybe u can even add cursors; icons; fonts; search; mail client; paint; task scheduler ....

and what do mean by "create a market" doesnt it still exist  search download.com or anyother download site u will find more applications for windows than any other OS at the same time u will find more such download sites catering to windows than other OSs .... if im not wrong there must be what thousands of applications for windows as compared 300 for linux and 4-5 for OS X


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## Quiz_Master (Dec 17, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Suppose MS provides Vista without any browser, how will u download Opera then *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif
> [/IMG]



I will just get it from any Digit DVD I have..  *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif

I am not sure what Opera prople thinking while they are doing this.

Opera is way great then IE7 (I actually used IE7 for 10 minutes... )

Someone said that IE will improve when IE8 will release.... 
haha

What will Opera developers do until IE8 releases... sleep??
If IE8 will go 10 KMs ahead from current status... Opera will go 100 KMs.


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## infra_red_dude (Dec 17, 2007)

Thanks for link Pallab 

That was really a nice read. All those who are saying:
How do I download a browser with a default one or Why isn't Apple being sued for bundling Safari or Ubuntu for Firefox etc. should read the link posted above. The root cause of the problem is the second point: Not adhereing to web standards!


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## iMav (Dec 18, 2007)

and all those who are telling us to read that piece of diplomatic crap should read the comments given by other users 

absolute bull crap ... opera has no problem telling MS to adhere to standards they follow but have a problem following standards IE adhers to firefox works well every1 on that board has said but no opera has a problem and they are not saying what they want whether its a case against IE not following their standards or is it IE's dominance ....and what a stupidly cheeky statement .... that if IE adheres to the standards they follow and still is bundled with Windows it wont be the most used browser 

i read it to understand as to what they were objecting to and clearly says that we cant beat u so we we will sue u .... but yeah its diplomatically said so that they get public support which they need and is the resaon why firefox or safari are perfectly alright with them

if there was a case of standards why wouldnt safari (apple) or mozilla say this before and file a case saying that IE does not follow standards ...

IE should follow the standards they follow but they are God sent and shouldnt follow standards set and used by others


----------



## gxsaurav (Dec 18, 2007)

infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> The root cause of the problem is the second point: Not adhereing to web standards!


 
This we have agreed to, how about Opera waiting for IE 8? MS has already made it clear that IE 8 will be IE 7 + Integrated download manager + Expression Web engine which is 100% standard complient.

Or is it that Opera is just scared that no one will use opera once IE 8 is out...

I mean comon, Opera also has a monopoly on mobile phone browser market, Webkit based browsers are not suing Opera for that.


----------



## Maroons (Dec 18, 2007)

I am having problems deciphering iMav's post due to lack of punctuation and such, but I'll give it a shot. Apologies for any misunderstandings.



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> opera has no problem telling MS to adhere to standards they follow but have a problem following standards IE adhers to


IE's proprietary technologies are not standards.



> firefox works well every1 on that board has said


There are still many sites that require IE, and no other browsers will work.



> whether its a case against IE not following their standards or is it IE's dominance ....


It is not "their" standards. The standards people are referring to are actually standards Microsoft has participated in making. Yet they don't follow them.



> and what a stupidly cheeky statement .... that if IE adheres to the standards they follow and still is bundled with Windows it wont be the most used browser


Where does it say that?



> i read it to understand as to what they were objecting to and clearly says that we cant beat u so we we will sue u


It is not a lawsuit. And no, you cannot "beat" IE because of Microsoft's anti-competitive practices. This is not down to an inability by Opera or other browsers to beat IE when on equal terms, but the terms are not equal at all.



> but yeah its diplomatically said so that they get public support which they need and is the resaon why firefox or safari are perfectly alright with them


The reason Firefox and Safari are perfectly alright is that they are not impeding competition, and they are standards compliant.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> MS has already made it clear that IE 8 will be IE 7 + Integrated download manager + Expression Web engine which is 100% standard complient.


Microsoft has promised the world in the past. It is clear, after more than a decade, that force is necessary to stop Microsoft from engaging in anti-competitive practices. Do you really want to take a chance that a company which is well know for doing dishonest things will suddenly improve?



> Or is it that Opera is just scared that no one will use opera once IE 8 is out...


Unless IE8 is exactly like Opera, why would someone who prefers Opera switch to IE? If IE8 is standards compliant, why would that alone make people switch from Opera if they prefer Opera's features?



> I mean comon, Opera also has a monopoly on mobile phone browser market, Webkit based browsers are not suing Opera for that.


Opera does not have a monopoly. There is competition in the mobile (browser) market. This is addressed in the Q&A, by the way:

"Q: But Opera is bundled on various devices. Doesn't that make Opera Software a hypocrite?

A: Bundling software in itself is not the problem. The problem with Internet Explorer is that Microsoft has used its strong position in the market to stifle competition."


----------



## iMav (Dec 18, 2007)

well im really sorry, punctuations are something i havent got used to on the keyboard, so 1 needs to bare with that 

however the standards issue as said earlier IE 8 will follow all standards yet the standards issue being raised as the major reason as to why IE is bad and leads to improper competition, so really dont find that concern to be 1 as Firefox or Safari havnt had an issue with it, all of a sudden Opera rises from sleep when MS has announced that IE 8 will follow "the standards"

secondly


> Where does it say that?





> Microsoft would be forced to adhere to standards, and at the same time they would not be as well equipped to repeat their actions in the future because their browser would no longer be as dominant.


 read boy read 

firefox has been fighting on these so called un-equal terms yet has managed to clinch itself a position in almost every Linux distro so find no reason that these un-equal terms are so un-equal when it comes to acceptance of a browser and its ability to display pages but yet opera wants to sue MS coz it cant beat firefox and suing canonical for bundling firefox would result in major consumer backlash and they will loose PR but suing MS in front of the EUAM well thats a different public scenario altogether aint it 

and im sorry for not using punctuations not sued to them and find it difficult but im working on it 

and as far as that comment by opera with regards to stifling compettion is concerned ... firefox and safari have acceptance in the market so much so that el jobso decided to come up with a windows version ofthe browser which clearly indicates that there is room for competition but the cheap publicity hunry pera decided to sueMS .... why didnt apple sue MS when they came out with safari forwindows


----------



## Maroons (Dec 18, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> IE 8 will follow all standards yet the standards issue being raised as the major reason as to why IE is bad and leads to improper competition


IE8 will not follow all standards. It may improve somewhat, but Microsoft's history shows that they are all talk and no action in these cases.

Still, it doesn't matter if we think IE8 might do things right. The fact is that Microsoft is doing bad things right now, and they should be forced to stop being anti-competitive. By doing this, we will be absolutely sure that IE8 will be standards compliant, and will not just have to rely on a promise by a commpany which is known to lie.



> Firefox or Safari havnt had an issue with it


They have. Many sites block these browsers too.



> all of a sudden Opera rises from sleep when MS has announced that IE 8 will follow "the standards"


No. The reason Opera does this now is that right now an investigation is already underway in the EU.



> firefox has been fighting on these so called un-equal terms yet has managed to clinch itself a position in almost every Linux distro


IE is not available for Linux. And besides, even after a decade and lots of money spent on trying to win over IE, IE still has a market share of more than 80% globally. This would not be the case if IE actually had to compete on equal terms as everyone else!



> opera wants to sue MS coz it cant beat firefox and suing canonical for bundling firefox would result in major consumer backlash


This comment shows me that you don't understand what this case is all about.

1: This is not a lawsuit.
2: Canonical is not a monopolist, and neither is Firefox.
3: Firefox is actually standards compliant.

Plainly put, "suing" Firefox or anyone else was never an option, because only Microsoft is being anti-competitive due to its domination of the desktop market.



> and as far as that comment by opera with regards to stifling compettion is concerned ... firefox and safari have acceptance in the market


But only limited such, and only after over a decade and billions spent on the whole thing. Again, if the competing terms had been equal, Firefox would have had a much greater market share and would have had to spend a lot less money to achieve that.

And even after all this time, IE still has more than 80% market share globally.

The reason Safari is growing is because Mac has gotten slightly more popular, but not enough to become a real threat to Microsoft's dominance.



> so much so that el jobso decided to come up with a windows version ofthe browser which clearly indicates that there is room for competition


The reason Safari was ported to Windows was to make sure people could develop for the iPhone.



> but the cheap publicity hunry pera decided to sueMS .... why didnt apple sue MS when they came out with safari forwindows


Again, *it is not a lawsuit*, and it is not a publicity stunt either. It is an antitrust complaint which actually benefits everyone, including Apple and Mozilla. And normal users.


----------



## iMav (Dec 18, 2007)

ah damn !!!



			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> IE8 will not follow all standards. It may improve somewhat, but Microsoft's history shows that they are all talk and no action in these cases.
> 
> Still, it doesn't matter if we think IE8 might do things right. The fact is that Microsoft is doing bad things right now, and they should be forced to stop being anti-competitive. By doing this, we will be absolutely sure that IE8 will be standards compliant, and will not just have to rely on a promise by a commpany which is known to lie.


 you sound like a fired MS employee  MS's history  or steve ballmer said to u that they are lieing or its pure speculatin by u 


			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> They have. Many sites block these browsers too.


 i wonder why havent they filed a anti-trust complaint agains MS at the EUAM



			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> No. The reason Opera does this now is that right now an investigation is already underway in the EU.


 ya i know .... we cant beat u by our own merit so we will sue u in front of a biased organisation that hates u as it is 



			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> IE is not available for Linux.


 i know so opera is avaiable still firefox has managed to get itself a place in all linux distros and not opera 



			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> And besides, even after a decade and lots of money spent on trying to win over IE, IE still has a market share of more than 80% globally.


 its the best amongst the rest 


			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> This would not be the case if IE actually had to compete on equal terms as everyone else!


 ya ya we all know linux will over throw windows play station will beat x360 and what not 




			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> 1: This is not a lawsuit.
> 2: Canonical is not a monopolist, and neither is Firefox.
> 3: Firefox is actually standards compliant.


 canonical is a monopolist it has bundled firefox with every linux distro and there by not giving users the option to choose very much same as IE is not giving the users an option to choose 


			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> Plainly put, "suing" Firefox or anyone else was never an
> option, because only Microsoft is being anti-competitive due to its domination of the desktop market.


 re-phrasing in simpler terms:

MS being numero uno is an easy target as it has a big Bulls Eye imprinted on its a$$ and every1 takes aim at it 


			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> Again, if the competing terms had been equal, Firefox would have had a much greater market share and would have had to spend a lot less money to achieve that.


 so shoudlnt firefox be suing MS why opera ... coz firefox has gained market share and is pretty happy with its browser being in amost every Linux distro where as Opera has nothing other than portables so deciding to sue MS gets it more publiity as a result more people will choose to see what it is and bringing this issue in front of the EUAM as it is has its merits


			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> And even after all this time, IE still has more than 80% market share globally.


 ya i know it pwns every other browser totally 


			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> The reason Safari is growing is because Mac has gotten slightly more popular, but not enough to become a real threat to Microsoft's dominance.


 so this doesnt mean that apple cant file an anti-trust complaint against MS for their browser not complying to "standards"


			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> The reason Safari was ported to Windows was to make sure people could develop for the iPhone.


 o i see el jobso discussed this with u i guess  


			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> Again, *it is not a lawsuit*, and it is not a publicity stunt either. It is an antitrust complaint which actually benefits everyone, including Apple and Mozilla. And normal users.


 which again brings to the main reason why doubt Opera's motive why did not apple or firefox file the complaint despite of knowing that IE does not comply to the "standards" 

and benefits every1 - this publicity stunt benefits no 1 other than opera


----------



## sakumar79 (Dec 18, 2007)

@imav, the reason that IE has 80% market share is not because it is better, but because a lot of windows users dont know there are alternatives, and also many dont know the security issues can be reduced by browsing with alternative browsers such as Opera and Firefox...

Arun


----------



## iMav (Dec 18, 2007)

sakumar79 said:
			
		

> @imav, the reason that IE has 80% market share is not because it is better, but because a lot of windows users dont know there are alternatives, and also many dont know the security issues can be reduced by browsing with alternative browsers such as Opera and Firefox...
> 
> Arun


 o yeah right i forgot people dont use mobile fones; they dont use play stations  ur right i completely forgot that  nokia users dont know about opera's existence very true 

aur agar patta hotta toh bhi kya ukhad letta ...


----------



## Indyan (Dec 18, 2007)

> so really dont find that concern to be 1 as Firefox or Safari havnt had an issue with it


Who says?
Firefox is having less trouble these days as it is popular. So web developers are also taking the pain of making their website fx compatible. Opera's point is if IE was standards compliant then web devs wouldnt need to put in fixes for individual browsers.

Also IE 8 will not be 100% standards compliant (no browser is, but ie 8 would still be quite a bit behind opera,safari and fx).


----------



## iMav (Dec 18, 2007)

Indyan said:
			
		

> Firefox is having less trouble these days as it is popular. So web developers are also taking the pain of making their website fx compatible.


 exactly what im saying ... opera wants publicity as it is no where when compared to fireofx or IE and therefore is crying

and i dont thikn popularity is the reason why firefox or safari hasnt filed the anti-trust complaint opera a browser that cant get linux distros to bundle their software with the distros it cant get any significant share in the pc segment so what does 1 do when they cant beat u - sue u ....  aur kuch


----------



## infra_red_dude (Dec 18, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> you sound like a fired MS employee  MS's history  or steve ballmer said to u that they are lieing or its pure speculatin by u


While you are self confessed "Devil's advocate"!! 



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> ya i know .... we cant beat u by our own merit so we will sue u in front of a biased organisation that hates u as it is


Strike the iron when hot! 



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> i know so opera is avaiable still firefox has managed to get itself a place in all linux distros and not opera


GET THIS IN YOUR HEAD THAT FIREFOX IS OSS WHILE OPERA IS NOT!



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> its the best amongst the rest   ya ya we all know linux will over throw windows play station will beat x360 and what not


As if you are the deciding factor. Come to the point, dude!



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> canonical is a monopolist it has bundled firefox with every linux distro and there by not giving users the option to choose very much same as IE is not giving the users an option to choose


Firefox is chosen coz its an OSS browser. Galeon is also bundled and so is Konqueror. All are OSS products and are bundled with Canonical sponsered products (Ubuntu/Kubuntu etc.). Kindly do not make a mockery of yourself if you do not know things. Plz stick to the point rather than digressing.



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> MS being numero uno is an easy target as it has a big Bulls Eye imprinted on its a$$ and every1 takes aim at it


This is very true! 



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> so shoudlnt firefox be suing MS why opera ... coz firefox has gained market share and is pretty happy with its browser being in amost every Linux distro where as Opera has nothing other than portables so deciding to sue MS gets it more publiity as a result more people will choose to see what it is and bringing this issue in front of the EUAM as it is has its merits


Opera has its own cult (ask Pallab and Charan!  ) Firefox is more community based. And I'm sure FF is NOT happy with the market share. Everyone would like to haf the largest market share, isn't it? 



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> so this doesnt mean that apple cant file an anti-trust complaint against MS for their browser not complying to "standards"


Of corz Apple can. But they are doing the same thing, isn't it? Bundling Safari? Who would like to hurt themselves? 



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> which again brings to the main reason why doubt Opera's motive why did not apple or firefox file the complaint despite of knowing that IE does not comply to the "standards"


I guess this was answered above.



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> and benefits every1 - this publicity stunt benefits no 1 other than opera


It maybe true. We never know 

And I agree with sakumar regarding popularity of IE. It is just coz IE is bundled with Windows and users lack knowledge about alternative browsers that IE has 70%+ market share.

But there is no doubt that apart from Safari, IE has the best default UI


----------



## Pathik (Dec 18, 2007)

infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> But there is no doubt that apart from Safari, IE has the best default UI


IE's UI is better than Opera's??? wth.
Opera has the most functional UI compared to all other browsers.


----------



## sakumar79 (Dec 18, 2007)

@pathiks, IE has an interface much more familiar to someone on Windows since it is part of Windows... So, for a new user, Opera looks a bit challenging while compared to IE... I have seen this with quite a few friends/relatives...

@imav, the amount of people using browsers in mobile phone is still limited compared to the total number of people using mobile phones... You have to look at the larger picture rather than think of a limited audience...

Arun


----------



## iMav (Dec 18, 2007)

@infra: not self confessed - term given by a fren liked it so kept it

and also why not tell opera to go OSS then  and being OSS doesnt mean that it cannot go to cannonical and tell them to bundle their browser 

@arun: most people know about firefox and not opera - this is not MS's fault or IE's success but opera's failure to generate mass appeal and this is exactly what it is trying to do with this anti-trust complaint


----------



## The_Devil_Himself (Dec 18, 2007)

pathiks said:
			
		

> IE's UI is better than Opera's??? wth.
> Opera has the most functional UI compared to all other browsers.



cudn't agree more.The interface is so fugging cool and functional.


----------



## x3060 (Dec 18, 2007)

he he he...war once again...


----------



## infra_red_dude (Dec 18, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> and also why not tell opera to go OSS then


Ask Adobe to make PS OSS, Ask Apple to make Mac OSS. Dude, you jus can't demand things like that! Its their choice.



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> being OSS doesnt mean that it cannot go to cannonical and tell them to bundle their browser


Exactly! That is why no browser has monopoly in GNU/Linux. You find Firefox, Epiphany, Galeon, Konquorer in different distros. If you want Opera, you are free to install it, WITHOUT HAFING TO INSTALL ANY BROWSER IN FIRST PLACE. At least don't be foolish in comparing the choices provided by OSS with a closed source company.



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> @arun: most people know about firefox and not opera - this is not MS's fault or IE's success but opera's failure to generate mass appeal and this is exactly what it is trying to do with this anti-trust complaint


We are only talking about why IE is more popular than the 3 and NOT why opera is NOT! 

@Others
I find IE's default UI cooler than any other browser. Personal opinion... of corz!


----------



## iMav (Dec 18, 2007)

infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> Ask Adobe to make PS OSS, Ask Apple to make Mac OSS. Dude, you jus can't demand things like that! Its their choice.


 whether to bundle IE or how IE should be, should also be MS's choice and not opera or EU's choice 


			
				infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> Exactly! That is why no browser has monopoly in GNU/Linux. You find Firefox, Epiphany, Galeon, Konquorer in different distros. If you want Opera, you are free to install it, WITHOUT HAFING TO INSTALL ANY BROWSER IN FIRST PLACE. At least don't be foolish in comparing the choices provided by OSS with a closed source company.


 MS comes with a browser and allows to install others whats the harm in that 



			
				infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> We are only talking about why IE is more popular than the 3 and NOT why opera is NOT!


 if it were as popular i can tell u they wudnt filed the complaint in the first place ... ff has a good market share and hence they arent bothered but opera cant beat ff coz its widely accepted in the OSS market and IE rules in PC; safari rules in Mac World opera is no where in the 3 leading computer platforms now MS being an easy target and targeting MS gets u good PR so well lets sue em


----------



## infra_red_dude (Dec 18, 2007)

^^^ As again, we are playing "Merry Go Round"!!


----------



## praka123 (Dec 18, 2007)

OK.bundle IE with window$.now make a shortcut on Desktop for *COMPLETE* uninstallation of IE,WMP,Outlook  .now it is OK 8) .remember complete uninstallation of internet explotion.


----------



## sakumar79 (Dec 18, 2007)

@praka, if IE is based on the Windows HTML engine, you can only uninstall the front-end (ie, remove the IExplore.exe application and a few other files), and not the backend... This is because the backend is not just used by IE but also by Help Files, etc... Is it ok if MS allowed you to remove the IE front end?

Arun


----------



## gxsaurav (Dec 18, 2007)

Maroons said:
			
		

> IE8 will not follow all standards.


 
How do u know?


> Still, it doesn't matter if we think IE8 might do things right. The fact is that Microsoft is doing bad things right now, and they should be forced to stop being anti-competitive. By doing this, we will be absolutely sure that IE8 will be standards compliant, and will not just have to rely on a promise by a commpany which is known to lie.


 
To stop doing thing, they have to make changes to IE & release a new version. So, all they are saying is to wait for IE 8



> OK.bundle IE with window$.now make a shortcut on Desktop for *COMPLETE* uninstallation of IE,WMP,Outlook  .now it is OK  .remember complete uninstallation of internet explotion.


 
You can remove the IE frontend in Windows completely. Or you can keep IE & continue to use your other favorite browser.


----------



## Hitboxx (Dec 18, 2007)

If IE8 follows all standards, it will lose market share., as simple as that.

Think, all browsers support all standards, what will people choose(use)!
*IE           Firefox         Opera            Safari     ......*
( ..  and think as internet users, not _Indian_ internet users..)

Micro$oft ain't changing anything, maybe under pressure they might iron out a few hard edges, but that is all.

My two cents.


----------



## praka123 (Dec 18, 2007)

standard compliant=acid2test pass?  konqueror,safari passed it.dont know about IE,FF et al.
*www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/test.html#top


----------



## The_Devil_Himself (Dec 18, 2007)

^^what is that page supposed to do?I am using firefox here,so what should I see on the page?

ok lemme explain what I see:hello world,and a peculiar face like structure below it which has a black dot(diamond shaped) in the middle which changes color from black to blue when I hover my mouse over it.


----------



## gxsaurav (Dec 18, 2007)

Hitboxx said:
			
		

> If IE8 follows all standards, it will lose market share., as simple as that.


 
Why?


----------



## Pathik (Dec 18, 2007)

Hitboxx said:
			
		

> If IE8 follows all standards, it will lose market share., as simple as that.
> 
> Think, all browsers support all standards, what will people choose(use)!
> *IE           Firefox         Opera            Safari     ......*
> ...


People will choose other browsers only if they know that there are other (& better) browsers.. Which is the main problem. Majority of the people dont know it yet.
And praka i think even opera has passed it.


----------



## praka123 (Dec 18, 2007)

@devil:see the reference image FF failed here,but when you use epiphany+webkit engine or konqueror(khtml~webkit~safari) acid test they passes! 
*www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/reference.png


----------



## The_Devil_Himself (Dec 18, 2007)

yep FF failed in this test.Rendered the image all wrong.


----------



## gxsaurav (Dec 18, 2007)

The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> yep FF failed in this test.Rendered the image all wrong.



Wait a sec, that's not stoping me from doing anything on the web using firefox  or IE 7, so why should i care?


----------



## Garbage (Dec 18, 2007)

Don't you think that, you are going OFFTOPIC ??


----------



## Maroons (Dec 19, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> How do u know?


*my.opera.com/haavard/blog/2007/12/18/microsoft-sabotaging-css-too



> To stop doing thing, they have to make changes to IE & release a new version. So, all they are saying is to wait for IE 8


So you believe a company which has a history of lying? What if IE8 isn't standards compliant, and EU and Microsoft have settled already by then? It will be too late to send an antitrust complaint, because it is right now that EU is investigating MIcrosoft.



> You can remove the IE frontend in Windows completely. Or you can keep IE & continue to use your other favorite browser.


But many sites still require IE, so you cannot realistically get completely away from it. And before you reply: Even if you personally only use sites that don't require IE, that doesn't help for people who do come across those sites.




			
				iMav said:
			
		

> or steve ballmer said to u that they are lieing or its pure speculatin by u


Not at all:

*my.opera.com/haavard/blog/2007/12/18/microsoft-sabotaging-css-too



> ya i know .... we cant beat u by our own merit so we will sue u in front of a biased organisation that hates u as it is


I think I already mentioned that it is not a lawsuit, didn't I? Or do you just not care about the facts? 



> canonical is a monopolist


No, it is not.



> firefox has gained market share


Only less than 20% globally. Are you saying that if IE and Firefox competed on equal terms, Firefox would only have 20%, and IE 80%?



> which again brings to the main reason why doubt Opera's motive why did not apple or firefox file the complaint despite of knowing that IE does not comply to the "standards"


What if one of them had? Would you have doubted their motives too?



> and benefits every1 - this publicity stunt benefits no 1 other than opera


Actually, it does, because it puts a lot of focus on Microsoft and standards.


----------



## iMav (Dec 19, 2007)

Maroons said:
			
		

> Not at all:
> 
> *my.opera.com/haavard/blog/2007/12/18/microsoft-sabotaging-css-too


 


			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> I think I already mentioned that it is not a lawsuit, didn't I? Or do you just not care about the facts?


 o im sorry its a complaint



			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> No, it is not.


 how can u say canonical is not a monopolist; they are a onopoly in the OSS world - u say they are not i say they are  so cut that crap of google; apple; canonical not being monopolist 


			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> Only less than 20% globally. Are you saying that if IE and Firefox competed on equal terms, Firefox would only have 20%, and IE 80%?


 and ur point is  i think u r not understanding or are pretending not to understand what im saying though i have said many times and in the simplest of terms please try to comprehend the point im making if u cant let me know i will explain again 


			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> What if one of them had? Would you have doubted their motives too?


 a hypothetical situation  the fact that noe of thme did is grounds enough for doubting opera


----------



## gxsaurav (Dec 19, 2007)

Maroons said:
			
		

> What if IE8 isn't standards compliant,


 
No browser is 100% standard compliant, IE 8 is going to use the Expression Web engine, which is the most standard complient right now out there.



> But many sites still require IE, so you cannot realistically get completely away from it.


 
So, how hard it is to use IE for just these sites


----------



## Maroons (Dec 19, 2007)

iMav, I will assume that you are just yanking my chain here since your posts seem to be joking more than they try to make a serious point. The Apple/Canonical argument has been answered so many times across the web the last few days that the people who still keep using that refuted argument must just be trying to make people angry, and not really being serious about the discussion. Sorry, but I don't have the time to play these games.

And what's this about speculating about what Opera's real motive is, but you refuse to say what your opinion would be if it had been Mozilla? Basically, you are saying that you are judging Opera and not giving it the benefit of the doubt that you would Mozilla or Apple.

Note that Opera is based in Europe, while Apple and Mozilla are based in the US. As such, it makes sense that a European company would do this rather than a US company, since the US antitrust case against Microsoft has already passed.

I am puzzled, though... Do you find it amusing that Microsoft continues to hold back open standards to this day?




			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> IE 8 is going to use the Expression Web engine, which is the most standard complient right now out there.


Have you tried this engine? Is it available for testing? If not, how do you know that it's the most standards compliant?



> So, how hard it is to use IE for just these sites


Exactly. IE is still required for many sites, and this proves Opera's point.


----------



## ico (Dec 19, 2007)

Firefox 3.0 beta passes the Acid2 Test and the Final release of Firefox 3.0 will also pass it.


----------



## iMav (Dec 19, 2007)

Maroons said:
			
		

> iMav, I will assume that you are just yanking my chain here since your posts seem to be joking more than they try to make a serious point. The Apple/Canonical argument has been answered so many times across the web the last few days that the people who still keep using that refuted argument must just be trying to make people angry, and not really being serious about the discussion. Sorry, but I don't have the time to play these games.


 the seriousness dies out once the same thing keeps on being talked about - i answer a question/claim of urs then u will say th/ask the same thing in different words and then i answer it again in the same words and then u still keep using different words to say the same thing


			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> And what's this about speculating about what Opera's real motive is, but you refuse to say what your opinion would be if it had been Mozilla? Basically, you are saying that you are judging Opera and not giving it the benefit of the doubt that you would Mozilla or Apple.


 the fact remians they have not and only opera has  i have said this before and am saying it again -

firefox rules in the OSS world it has itself bundled wiht almost every distro

safari rules the mac world 

but opera is no where even though it has offerings for all the systems; now add to this the fact going against OSS will result in bad PR & outrage by the user community; going against apple fetches no returns as apple is nothing as compared to MS; MS is an easy target & commands huge dis-respect by OSS and Mac users which makes sure that they get public support and good publicity by playing the standards coin (which i might add as gx said is taken care of in IE8) they made sure that this complaint seems legit where as the standards issue is something that would affect safari & ff as much but they did not complain and that is why opera is crying foul against MS 


			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> Note that Opera is based in Europe, while Apple and Mozilla are based in the US. As such, it makes sense that a European company would do this rather than a US company, since the US antitrust case against Microsoft has already passed.


 EU is not EU it is EUAM which is well known


			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> I am puzzled, though... Do you find it amusing that Microsoft continues to hold back open standards to this day?


 these standards havent affected me 1 bit; they havnt affected Firefox to open any site i frequent; but hey opera is the only company to notice that IE till version 7 does not follow 'standards' add to that the fact it is well known by all that IE 8 will take steps with regards to the standards issue so it makes all the more resons for me to doubt to opera's motive coz once IE 8 is out then the 'standards' issue would be more or less irrelevant resulting in Opera loosing a lot of public support as the 'standards' issue is something that gets them a lot of good will  i hope u can understand what im trying to say 


			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> Have you tried this engine? Is it available for testing? If not, how do you know that it's the most standards compliant?


 have u tested it or know that it doesnt, if u dont how can u refute gx's claim 


			
				Maroons said:
			
		

> Exactly. IE is still required for many sites, and this proves Opera's point.


 i wonder why safari or ff havnt raised their voices on this or filed any anti-trust complaint or whatever


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## gxsaurav (Dec 19, 2007)

Maroons said:
			
		

> Have you tried this engine? Is it available for testing? If not, how do you know that it's the most standards compliant?


 
Yup, I have tried Expression Web beta here myself.



> Exactly. IE is still required for many sites, and this proves Opera's point.


 
Then isn't it the fault of the web developer.?


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## kalpik (Dec 19, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> No browser is 100% standard compliant, IE 8 is going to use the *Expression Web engine*, which is the *most standard complient right now out there*.


Any proofs for your statement? I've told you MANY times.. Please dont just pull stuff out of your ***. Give us some proof.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> So, how hard it is to use IE for just these sites


Believe me, its VERY hard for me to use IE on linux


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## Pathik (Dec 19, 2007)

It is very hard for me to use IE on XP/Vista too.. 
Opera rocks.


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## narangz (Dec 19, 2007)

Arrey bhai logo ab bass bhi karo... Bohat waat laga di MS aur Opera ki


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## iMav (Dec 20, 2007)

*Internal Microsoft IE 8 build passes the Acid standards test*



> “I’m delighted to tell you that on Wednesday, December 12, Internet Explorer correctly rendered the Acid2 page in IE8 standards mode,” Hachamovitch blogged. “While supporting the features tested in Acid2 is important for many reasons, it is just one of several milestones for the interoperability, standards compliance, and backwards compatibility that we’re committed to for this release.”



*blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/images/acidtest2.png



> “For IE8, we want to communicate facts, not aspirations. We’re posting this information now because we have real working code checked in and we’re confident about delivering it in the final product. We’re listening to the feedback about IE, and at the same time, we are committed to responsible disclosure and setting expectations properly. Now that we’ve run the test on multiple machines and seen it work, we’re excited to be able to share definitive information.”



*Source*

 so much for opera's standards


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## Maroons (Dec 20, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> but opera is no where


Except it is the leading mobile browser.



> now add to this the fact going against OSS will result in bad PR & outrage by the user community


There is no need to go after OSS or Apple because there are no monopolists there abusing their market position.



> which i might add as gx said is taken care of in IE8


I'll believe it when I see it. Microsoft has made these promises before, and failed to deliver.



> the standards issue is something that would affect safari & ff as much but they did not complain


Actually, both Mozilla and Apple have complained about Microsoft's actions in the browser market.



> EU is not EU it is EUAM which is well known


Excuse me?



> opera is the only company to notice that IE till version 7 does not follow 'standards'


No, it is well known that IE has poor standards support.



> it is well known by all that IE 8 will take steps with regards to the standards issue


So they claim, but they have made the same claims over and over again through the years.



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> Internal Microsoft IE 8 build passes the Acid standards test


Good for them. Let's see if they finally deliver proper standards support with IE8, which they have promised many times through the years, but always failed. Passing Acid2 is a good start, but Acid2 is just testing a tiny subset of various things.



> so much for opera's standards


What are "Opera's standards"? Could you try making sense for once?



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Yup, I have tried Expression Web beta here myself.


And what do you base your claim on? How do you know that it's "the most standard complient right now out there"? Because you assume it to be or because there is evidence that this is the case?



> Then isn't it the fault of the web developer.?


No, the web developer has no choice but to code so that his site works in the browser which owns 80-90% of the market, and that browser only offers non-standard ways to do things, or things that are specific to that browser.

Microsoft basically gives the web developer the tool, and the tool is flawed, so the result is flawed as well.


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## kalpik (Dec 20, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> *Internal Microsoft IE 8 build passes the Acid standards test*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Opera has been passing that test since AGES! So what's your point again? We even had MS show off a WHOLE LOT of features for Vista during alpha/beta phases, but now they are nowhere to be seen in the final release!


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## gxsaurav (Dec 20, 2007)

Maroons said:
			
		

> And what do you base your claim on? How do you know that it's "the most standard complient right now out there"? Because you assume it to be or because there is evidence that this is the case?


 
Well...m not a reverse engg but how do U know Opera is the most standard complient out there? I guess by some online review, article or blog right...

Have a look here 



> Opera has been passing that test since AGES! So what's your point again?


 
That microsoft is going standard compliant with IE 8


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## Maroons (Dec 20, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Well...m not a reverse engg but how do U know Opera is the most standard complient out there? I guess by some online review, article or blog right...


Actually, no. There are a huge number of sites that test actual standards compliance. For example, Opera has the most complete SVG implementation in the world (at least for web browsers). How do they know? They test each function in the specification to see if Opera supports it.



> Have a look here


I don't see any comments about standards compliance. I see claims about it, but Microsoft has been claiming that for years. It is clear that you should not make comments about standards compliance since you don't even know how it is tested. Might I suggest that you refrain from making outrageous claims like that in the future?



> That microsoft is going standard compliant with IE 8


Acid2 is a small but important step in that case. But then again, just because they are passing Acid2 doesn't mean that it will be standards compliant overall. Acid2 only tests a tiny part of a few of the standards.

Even Microsoft pointed this out when Acid2 was first announced 

It still remains to be seen whether Microsoft is actually being serious about these claims this time. They never were in the past. Acid2 is not final proof that they do care, but it shows that they take PR seriously.


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## infra_red_dude (Dec 20, 2007)

Lets wait and continue this discussion (or fight  ) after IE8 is released. We can't say for sure now whether IE8 will or will not be standards compliant. All we can talk for now is about IE7.

Talking about IE8 and standards compliancy is like saying Windows 7 will haf WinFS. We dunno whether it will. Only time will tell.

Opera hasn't filed a case keeping IE8 in mind. This is directed towards IE7. So lets not go offtopic by discussing standards and IE8 which is not even released!


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## gxsaurav (Dec 20, 2007)

infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> Lets wait and continue this discussion (or fight  ) after IE8 is released. We can't say for sure now whether IE8 will or will not be standards compliant. All we can talk for now is about IE7.


 
IR 7 right now is not standard compliant to the max, however to make it standard compliant MS needs to make changes & release a new version. That is what it is doing with IE 8.

So, better wait...& stop whining.


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## infra_red_dude (Dec 20, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> So, better wait...& stop whining.


And what am I saying?


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## Batistabomb (Dec 20, 2007)

very hot discussion for a small topic, very good carry on


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Dec 20, 2007)

Maroons said:
			
		

> There is no need to go after OSS or Apple because there are no monopolists there abusing their market position.


 Microsoft did not capture the largest market share overnight . it HAS the largest market share because people like it's products and thet's why they buy it and that is why MS it still the leading OS company .

so stop saying that MS is abusing it's market position coz they didn't get it in their dad's will , they earned it themselves and for that they command respect .


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## Hitboxx (Dec 20, 2007)

Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> Microsoft did not capture the largest market share overnight . it HAS the largest market share *because people like it's products and thet's why they buy it* and that is why MS it still the leading OS company .
> 
> so stop saying that MS is abusing it's market position coz they didn't get it in their dad's will , they earned it themselves and for that they command respect .


People use Windows just because it comes default with the computers they buy, most of the populace didn't even know that other options existed until now.

And Microsoft doesn't abuse its position? History has enough proof of that.


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## Krazy_About_Technology (Dec 20, 2007)

Hitboxx said:
			
		

> People use Windows just because it comes default with the computers they buy, most of the populace didn't even know that other options existed until now.
> 
> And Microsoft doesn't abuse its position? History has enough proof of that.


Well i am not jumping into this discussion but if you look at the situation, at the time when windows was coming with pcs as default, Linux and other choices were not there as a viable alternative, at least for the home users. Its the simplicity of Windows which attracted people towards it, while Unix and its clones at that time were a pure geeky stuff (they still are to an extent , and thats why geeks like me like it sooooo much, i just love my Fedora 8  ). It is always the matter of 'Who comes first to the market'. Microsoft at that time decided to make windows a consumer grade OS and thats what it is. Linux and others are evolving at a rapid pace now, but it was not the same then.

And about monopoly and all that, These are realities of conventional business markets and will continue to be. It is fare to certain extent, coz everybody looks at it in their own profitable way. If you come first with a great product (according to that time's condition) and others don't follow for long enough, its certain that u'll have kind of monopoly in the market, its normal. you cant stop someone saying that you have sold enough of your stuff, now you don't have the right to sell it your way. Ya, competitive environment should be there, but you must have to pay the price of coming late, either economically or strategically. Its a fairly complex topic and i would not like to debate much on it. Interested people can read Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki. Its an eye opener book on the World of Buisness.


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## infra_red_dude (Dec 20, 2007)

Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> It HAS the largest market share *because people like it's products and thet's why they buy it* and that is why MS it still the leading OS company .
> 
> so stop saying that MS is abusing it's market position coz they didn't get it in their dad's will , they *earned it themselves* and for that *they command respect*.


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## Maroons (Dec 20, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> to make it standard compliant MS needs to make changes & release a new version. That is what it is doing with IE 8.


That remains to be seen. They have given such promises many times in the past without delivering (remember WinFS?). Microsoft is notorious for bragging about stuff early on, and then failing to deliver.

Still, I hope that IE8 will be standards compliance. And if nothing else, the EU might just force them to anyway 



			
				Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> Microsoft did not capture the largest market share overnight . it HAS the largest market share because people like it's products and thet's why they buy it and that is why MS it still the leading OS company .


MS has its current market share not because it is the best, but because of its sleazy tactics. When MS-DOS was out there, others created better DOS clones, and Microsoft would do things like specifically make Windows 3 refuse to start with some cryptic error message on the most popular clone even though it would have worked fine.



> so stop saying that MS is abusing it's market position coz they didn't get it in their dad's will , they earned it themselves and for that they command respect .


Sorry to say this, but Microsoft is where it is today largely due to luck and sleazy tactics. It's an impressive feat, by all means. But that doesn't mean that it is a particularly desirable way to do things.


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