# Linux leaders plot counterattack on Microsoft



## anandk (Jun 17, 2007)

MOUNTAIN VIEW, California (Reuters) - The high priests of free software have congregated at Google Inc. (GOOG.O: Quote, Profile, Research) headquarters this week to debate the future of the movement and face down recent patent threats by Microsoft Corp...

*www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN1446888520070614


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## gxsaurav (Jun 17, 2007)

Lolz...they will keep on thinking how to fight MS instead of making better featured products while MS will continue to make money due to better products


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## infra_red_dude (Jun 17, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> while MS will continue to make money due to better *products*



better "advertising"


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## sakumar79 (Jun 17, 2007)

and even just by the fact that it is paid software while those at the meeting make free software...

Arun


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## amitava82 (Jun 17, 2007)

Actually we have done more than just spreading FUD like MS's CEO..


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## praka123 (Jun 18, 2007)

it is M$ who are attacking FOSS with patent warfare isnt it? why again FUDing from M$ fans in da forum 
M$ cant do a buy out of Linux and Open Source  there u flopped M$ and its kingmakers right from this forum too 
M$ can buy apple,but cant buy FOSS and Linux,Lo$ers all the way!I am sure the death of M$FT and Proprietory Softwares are on the hands of TUX and Free/Libre Open Source SOftwares.
Future softwares will be on subscription model,rather than "try u id!ot for 30 days,buy else i am locking" ideology(i know ya ppl go cracking!).Open Source is the way whether u got itching on the butt or what


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## gxsaurav (Jun 18, 2007)

@ Prakash

Stop talking like an idiot about the death of MS & all that crap, & learn to collaborate with MS instead. If MS technologies can be made available in Linux such as DirectX or DirectShow Engine for videos then it is for the own good of Linux. Tell me after thinking, will there be anything wrong with Linux if MS gives support for it? There won't be & thats why Linspire, Suse & XenderOS are working with MS to bring the best of Windows world to Linux world. By this year end, i am sure even Mandriva will work together.

Linux has tried a lot & can keep on trying. With the current rate of development (GAIM 1.0 to Pidgin 2.0 took many years to come & still not enough features just basic text IM) you can expect yourself that it will take 30 years to beat MS (example). Just being free doesn't matter if Windows does everything for the average Joe & can be pirated.

So stop whining in this forum & start contributing to make Linux a better OS with respect to features,


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## infra_red_dude (Jun 18, 2007)

yes i agree wid gx. we need each others support in this world. we need to work in collaboration. porting directx to linux will open the lock to the world of gaming. porting other technologies will help in numerous ways. only then can ppl like you, me, gx, arya etc.  will be benifitted!


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## praka123 (Jun 18, 2007)

why shud we care about directx in Linux?its just a so called inventory actually opengl needs to be the defacto.
Do u think  All Linux users will be thinking of collaborating with dev!l?no way.
M$ is a company which is best in marketing.
get the reality FOSS community in *no way* are going to embrace M$FT .I know that M$ will be contacting most distro vendors with the FUD game.
M$ sure is worried about Linux marketshare.that may be the pioneer reason for latest patent infringement FUD.
and no lessons please,on Mr.Nice M$FT.knows the history of M$FT and its SCOing and patent warfare on Linux.leave it.


> Microsoft has been scanning the horizon to ensure that no one begins to kick at the blocks that prop up their monopoly. They are constantly looking for new ways to create more blocks. Some of these blocks are directx, drm, application/windows APIs, network interoperability (or the lack thereof), WGA/WGN lie, FUD, patents. Writing for OpenGL means you are writing for multiple platforms which gives a greater overall share.
> 
> Another new block is DRM. Yes they have had DRM in their product in one fashion or another for decades--copy protection on software back in the 80s, activation keys in the 90s. The WGN/WGA lie in the 00's is a psychological game meant to make the consumer less in control but to give them a feeling they are being protected. They are essentially forcing the consumer to allow Microsoft to spy on them under the guise of protecting the consumer from organized pirating--this is the fundamental lie. The average consumer is already covered because they generally purchase from the likes of Dell, Gateway, etc. Only a small percentage of sales are from systems integrators and the odds of getting one that is dishonest is even more minuscule. Today it is the essential arm-twisting/drafting of the hardware manufacturers to comply with their draconian DRM/CRM procedures.
> 
> ...


 *linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=230391&cid=18696149
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Red Hat's wonderful Truth Happens video ends with the famous Mohandas Gandhi quote, "First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win." It's exactly right.[/FONT]


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## gxsaurav (Jun 18, 2007)

> why shud we care about directx in Linux?



Because DirectX is the defacto gaming standerd out there, whether u admit it or not. Posting it to linux will just help the developers cater to a big market. Now don't tell me you don't want some good features on Linux & want to stay forever with a less features OS.



> Its just a so called inventory actually opengl needs to be the defacto.



Nothing is de-facto, it all depends on what the developers wants to use for his game engine. OpenGL rocks in Workstations, & why should it be made de-facto? R U afraid of some superb competition from DirectX or you can't face it?



> Do u think  All Linux users will be thinking of collaborating with dev!l?no way.
> M$ is a company which is best in marketing.



Marketing there products which are much easier to use, has maximum number of features, 3rd party hardware & software support, so yeah....Linux should collaborate.



> get the reality FOSS community in *no way* are going to embrace M$FT



Then FOSS is stupid & ignorant just like u r. If MS can license there technologies at a modest price then paid Linux distro's like Mandrive & Suse should really come forward



> I know that M$ will be contacting most distro vendors with the FUD game.



*Lolz...if Linux is so better then why r u afraid of MS Spreading FUD, why do u care if in the end your product is good (According to u)*


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## praka123 (Jun 18, 2007)

I just cant talk to some fanboys who simply got their brains devoted to M$.leave me!Microsoft is a company which wants to kill all it's competitors.they do succeded it with any nasty ways they can.but their good honeymoon came to an end when facing with an open community.there they are using teh Fear,Uncertainity and Doubt card.MS patent warfare is expected as the company is relying on their so called "better  OS" Windows market.but with Vista's terrible low sales,M$ frustrated -the truth that is.
Did u in ur good mind ever wants to install an OS which contains DRM,whatever be the reason?
lxer.com got 
*A Brief History of Microsoft FUD*



> This time it's patents that will ensure the downfall of GNU/Linux and with it, the entire world of open source. But before hanging up your certified geek propeller-hat and retraining as a dental hygienist, you might want to consider the following brief history of Microsoft's use of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) as a weapon against GNU/Linux.                                                       You've got to hand it to him: Steve Ballmer is a master of innuendo.  In a recent interview, published in _Forbes_, he manages to say nothing and threaten everything:
> 
> Well, I think there are experts who claim Linux violates our intellectual property. I'm not going to comment. But to the degree that that's the case, of course we owe it to our shareholders to have a strategy.​  So, this time it's patents that will ensure the downfall of GNU/Linux and with it, the entire world of open source. But before hanging up your certified geek propeller-hat and retraining as a dental hygienist, you might want to consider the following brief history of Microsoft's use of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) as a weapon against GNU/Linux. It's a story that goes back nearly a decade, and one that has evolved through various stages of corporate denial.
> *1997: It's not a threat*
> ...


*lxer.com/module/newswire/view/57261/index.html


> A cross section of the Linux community signaled last week that it's time to get back to work on the open source operating system and move past Microsoft's patent deals and claims of infringement. Lawyers can quibble, but it's up to the community to expand the system's capabilities and maintain its momentum.


*www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199904892


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## techtronic (Jun 18, 2007)

Its not only Microsoft that likes to kill its competitors *praka123.
*Take Adobe for example, the primary reason why it "acquired" Macromedia was its inability to have any progress in the world of Flash and Animation.

This is what they call in business and management as MARKETING STRATEGY
"If you can't outsell your opponent, buy him instead"

And by the way, When will this hatred end ?
There should be healthy competition to prevent monopoly and I am glad MS is getting a stiff competition from our Tux Friends 

Talk with a free mind
cheers


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## gxsaurav (Jun 18, 2007)

Prakash speaks like MS came to his home & vandalised his room for Using Linux 



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> I just cant talk to some fanboys who simply got their brains devoted to M$.leave me!Microsoft is a company which wants to kill all it's competitors.


Each & every company wants to do that, this is how the business model works dude. Each & every company out there wants to be the market leader. If Linux was the de-facto standard then I have no problem is assuming that SuSe must have been out there to kill Linspire etc.



> their good honeymoon came to an end when facing with an open community.there they are using teh Fear,Uncertainity and Doubt card.MS patent warfare is expected as the company is relying on their so called "better  OS" Windows market.but with *Vista's terrible low sales,*M$ frustrated -the truth that is.


Where did u get your stats from :d .Kangal bank of USA kya 

Vista made more then 20 billions in just 100 days of its release.



> Did u in ur good mind ever wants to install an OS which contains DRM,whatever be the reason?


DRM, oh you mean *the restriction technology used for HD DVD & Blue Ray Disks which MS was forced to include due to MPAA & RIAA in Windows, which also doesn't affect the non-DRM files *out there & just HD-DVD & Blue Ray disks, *which in turn enables us to play any content be it envrypted HD or CableCARD ready* unlike *Linux which still has to see a HD Content Media Player.

*Yup, I don't mind cos I am not affected with DRM here


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## mehulved (Jun 18, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Prakash speaks like MS came to his home & tormented his room for Using Linux


 This gotta be news. Even rooms are tormented now?


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## QwertyManiac (Jun 18, 2007)

mehulved said:
			
		

> This gotta be news. Even rooms are tormented now?


Yes! Especially if the rooms have furniture, like sofa


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## gxsaurav (Jun 18, 2007)

Lolz...with so much fanboyism in a room, obviously the room feels the pain 

"Vandalised" would have been a better verbal term here.


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## praka123 (Jun 18, 2007)

It seems M$ guys wants to "monopolize" my room  .


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## sachin_kothari (Jun 18, 2007)

having experience of using both windows and linux i would say that no OS is perfect.
i need the best of both world and if this can happen by collaboration (i dont care about other intentions) them i am game for it. i will use what benefits me most whether pirated or free.


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## gxsaurav (Jun 18, 2007)

Theoretically you room already has a monopoly of your existence.


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## blackpearl (Jun 18, 2007)

Whatever you say guys, the fact remains that Windows is more popular inspite of being a paid product. Instead wasting time plotting against MS, the open source guys should spend their time developing  useful and user friendly products. Just think, after so many years they couldn't come up with a decent application installer.

There are currently 3 options in the OS market:
Windows - paid
Mac - paid
Linux - free

You might imagine that everybody would jump at the free Linux, but that isn't so. Have you ever thought WHY?? Go back to your room and think of it, why?? Why do people fish out hundreds of dollars to obtain Windows instead of free Linux if its bad? People would rather pirate Windows then use the legally free Linux. 

Actually I'm not against Linux but it amuses me when people say such stupid things like Linux will kill windows and that sort.


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## Sykora (Jun 18, 2007)

blackpearl said:
			
		

> Just think, after so many years they couldn't come up with a decent application installer.


*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullsoft_Scriptable_Install_System

AFAIK, it is the most used project on sourceforge, correct me if I'm wrong.



			
				blackpearl said:
			
		

> You might imagine that everybody would jump at the free Linux, but that isn't so. Have you ever thought WHY??



Not everyone is as informed as you are. The more informed are indeed switching to linux, expecially after Ubuntu.



			
				blackpearl said:
			
		

> Actually I'm not against Linux but it amuses me when people say such stupid things like Linux will kill windows and that sort.



Actually, I'm not against Windows but it amuses me when people say things like :



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> ...MS will continue to make money due to better products.


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 18, 2007)

The most important thing is , that *most Open Source software developers work as full-time(or part-time) PAID developers in software firms* . thus if there wasn't paid software then these developer's wouldn't be making their living and churning out FOSS .


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## QwertyManiac (Jun 18, 2007)

Gone are the days of Browser Wars, its big time OS Wars now. And soon who knows what, maybe Cabinet color wars. We got to name threads like these, something like the use of LOLOS language.  

Microsoft throws blank threats at the OSS community, and you expect them to sit quiet? I'd love to see MS get legally owned by them.


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 18, 2007)

i think that's *LOLCODE*


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## QwertyManiac (Jun 18, 2007)

No, that's for code, I was talking OS. Like you always do these days, obsessed.


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## mehulved (Jun 18, 2007)

Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> The most important thing is , that *most Open Source software developers work as full-time(or part-time) PAID developers in software firms* . thus if there wasn't paid software then these developer's wouldn't be making their living and churning out FOSS .


 Ever saw the reality? Why are big firms ready to pump money into FOSS. I wonder how much you even know of FOSS.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Lolz...they will keep on thinking how to fight MS instead of making better featured products while MS will continue to make money due to better products


 It's MS and the monkeyboy who started the circus err i mean attack by accusing linux of patent violation and threatening to sue. Which, BTW, they never do.
So, get your facts straight before you open your trap.
And yeah, someone mentioned better features?


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## gxsaurav (Jun 19, 2007)

mehulved said:
			
		

> Ever saw the reality? Why are big firms ready to pump money into FOSS. I wonder how much you even know of FOSS.



I guess you don't know that the primary reason for any money making company to go open source is to cut developement & research cost. This is the same thing Apple is doing by taking the KHTML engine. KDE Developes it while Apple uses it gives so less back in the form of Webki.



> And yeah, someone mentioned better features?



Yup, lods of better features like...multimedia, HD DVD, Blue Ray etc etc etc


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## eddie (Jun 19, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> ...HD DVD, Blue Ray etc etc etc


 How many have you seen on your Windows Vista PC? Can we have a list?


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## gxsaurav (Jun 19, 2007)

He asked for features, I just listed those.


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## eddie (Jun 19, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> He asked for features, I just listed those.


 LOL! Yeah "features". Actually it was my fault. I forgot that there are people in this world who would pay for something that they can't even use. They are features alright...carry on


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## mehulved (Jun 19, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> I guess you don't know that the primary reason for any money making company to go open source is to cut developement & research cost. This is the same thing Apple is doing by taking the KHTML engine. KDE Developes it while Apple uses it gives so less back in the form of Webki.


 It's webkit. And anyways yes they save money and get quality products. If not for quality why would they invest money?
I take it you understand what investing money means, as you are a commerce student.


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## gxsaurav (Jun 19, 2007)

> t's webkit. And anyways yes they save money and get quality products. If not for quality why would they invest money?
> I take it you understand what investing money means, as you are a commerce student.


I hope you understand when I say the primary reason for a company to go open source is to save on development & research cost, cos now the OSS community develops it while the company can easily use it for free.

In its current state, the gecko engine is far better then Webkit, why didn't apple go with that if it is so good in quality? Cos in that case it would have been just a port of firefox, & Apple likes to create its own market & rule there own market.


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## girish_AMD (Jun 19, 2007)

Ubuntu Linux founder says no deal with Microsoft

*investing.reuters.co.uk/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=media&storyID=nN18409310


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## gxsaurav (Jun 19, 2007)

So, indirectly he said that he won't work with MS to make Ubuntu more compatible with Windows.


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## vish786 (Jun 19, 2007)

we already have one fight going between Windows and Mac

and this another has started..................  Windows and Linux

so Windows is fighting to survive this days 



> So, indirectly he said that he won't work with MS to make Ubuntu more compatible with Windows.


Microsoft is scared now becoz of ubuntu spreading like fire... that is why they wanted to make a deal with them... which Ubuntu founder Declined.

* Wait for few more months and see all the Computer Users (Windows Users) will have Ubuntu Free Cd with them and waiting desperately to install it and have an hand on it. and would have already posted their new addresses for latest release of Ubuntu Distro*

World is changing from windows to linux


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## praka123 (Jun 19, 2007)

@vish: Psss...be careful bill gates devotee's on dis forum can kill u!


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## vish786 (Jun 19, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> @vish: Psss...be careful bill gates devotee's on dis forum can kill u!


oh $hit.... hope those microsoft people dont SUE me... like they did for some other guy.... who was atleast using windows.


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## amitava82 (Jun 19, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> So, indirectly he said that he won't work with MS to make Ubuntu more compatible with Windows.


How MS is going to make Ubuntu more compatible with Windows? Like adding Live search as default search engine? I don't see that makes ubuntu any better except a dirty trick to increase M$'s market share. Nice trick buddy..


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## gxsaurav (Jun 19, 2007)

> How MS is going to make Ubuntu more compatible with Windows? Like adding Live search as default search engine? I don't see that makes ubuntu any better except a dirty trick to increase M$'s market share. Nice trick buddy..


Like I said in 2nd post, stop whining & start collaborating. These are few things that MS can give Linux

1) NTFS read & write support, more native compared to NTFS 3G, you do know that NTFS 3G is still lacking in few areas

2) DirectShow Video Engine

3) Windows Media Technology

4) DirectX

5) Windows Sideshow engine, so that even Linux can use the Sideshow devices found in laptops

6) Exchange server

7) Ability to sync Windows Mobile PDA's with Linux, better then what it does right now.

8) Windows Live Messenger & other Windows Live services like Live Folders etc right from Linux itself.

Lots more thing, Windows is just full of technologies.

@ Vish

I heard the same thing in 1998, 2001, 2002, 2004 & now. If Linux is the future, well....then lets meet in the future when it is easy & featureful enough to compete with Windows.


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## vish786 (Jun 19, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> @ Vish
> 
> I heard the same thing in 1998, 2001, 2002, 2004 & now. If Linux is the future, well....then lets meet in the future when it is easy & featureful enough to compete with Windows.


who the $hit is bothered about future... and who told u linux is future.... its present.

that is why Microsoft thought of making a deal.


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## gxsaurav (Jun 19, 2007)

vish786 said:
			
		

> who the $hit is bothered about future... and who told u linux is future.... its present.


lolz....thanx for the joke of the evening. Me & even you know where Linux stands today compared to Windows. You just have a feel good factor for Linux right now.

I m saying it again* Linux users, stop whining & start collaborating. You cannot beat the beast in Desktop usage with the current development speed in even 15 years. There are so many things Linux can give Windows & so many things Windows can give Linux.
*
Microsoft made the deal, cos it is a software company & Linux is just another OS on which they can sale & provide there softwares like Windows Media Server or Office 2007 or .net 3.0


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## praka123 (Jun 19, 2007)

Collaborate?While standing at a belief on Open Source Ideology and embracing a OS which is definitely against the principles?
My bet is u can get Windows "compatibility" with MAC OS,may be few proprietory UNIXe's,but NOT GNU/Linux and GPLed Softwares?care to know why? GNU/Linux is not just another company which can be "collaborated" OR later to BUy it off.It is a movement by people who believe in ethics unlike a monopoly which is always wanting to Kill this movement.I have posted its history in this thread itself.
_Being a fanboy is NOT a reason to lecture about how Linux can be "windows compatible"_.
We need changes;we need options for OS market-more than Windows and microsoft and MACOS X or Linux.welcome the change be it proprietory or FOSS.
But How can a monopoly digest that?and it's supporters(i mean hard-core fanboy's that is!) too.
The Word's Patent warfare against rival companies or OS's ,FUD,SCOing are now famous i think.
So personally i felt first thing to do is US goverment shud liquidate this company for looting the world for the past 15+ years and for a weak product been selled as "superior".
US/World gov shud ask other companies and individuals to come forward and innovate.why shud we stop at Linux-go on..make better OS's and softwares by people allover the world.
Microsoft cant be believed at any cost.M$ if possible,will try to kill even apple inc. too.so know the devil from its color atleast now it is su*king us for past 15 years!.


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## vish786 (Jun 19, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> lolz....thanx for the joke of the evening. Me & even you know where Linux stands today compared to Windows. You just have a feel good factor for Linux right now.


lol... who has the feel good factor... me for linux or u for windows ?


			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> I m saying it again* Linux users, stop whining & start collaborating. *


 are u bill gates, since i see u telling to collaborate. 


			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> *You cannot beat the beast in Desktop usage with the current development speed in even 15 years. There are so many things Linux can give Windows & so many things Windows can give Linux.
> *
> Microsoft made the deal, cos it is a software company & Linux is just another OS on which they can sale & provide there softwares like Windows Media Server or Office 2007 or .net 3.0


and linux does not require softwares which u mentioned. it already has alternatives.

* its useless to argue on such topics coz their is no end to it.

secondly why should we argue and waste time,  is bill gates paying u or is Linus  paying me?? then why make it free publicity,  let those people fight. and take things which is beneficial to us.   So stop the useless arguements. 

Let people use what they want to use, does not matter whether its windows or Linux.  And never force anybody to use Mac or windows or linux. whichever they feel is good for them and profitable they can use it.
*


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## krrrish (Jun 19, 2007)

^^^ at least smeone had this thought !


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## gxsaurav (Jun 19, 2007)

@ Prakash

I don't want to turn this in a Linux vs Windows thread. But you need to learn what is business & how it is done



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> Collaborate?While standing at a belief on Open Source Ideology and embracing a OS which is definitely against the principles?
> My bet is u can get Windows "compatibility" with MAC OS,may be few proprietory UNIXe's,but NOT GNU/Linux and GPLed Softwares?care to know why? GNU/Linux is not just another company which can be "collaborated" OR later to BUy it off.


Who is collaborating with Linux? *Microsoft is collaborating with those companies which makes Linux Distributions because this is just another market for Microsoft where they can provide there product.*



> It is a movement by people who believe in ethics unlike a monopoly which is always wanting to Kill this movement.I have posted its history in this thread itself.


First, get one thing straight in your mind. Every business means this thing. To eliminate the competition & prevail.

Suppose we only have Linux OS in the market, & many small & big companies make distros. Now, if this is the case, then obviously the big companies like Novell & Rad Hat will try to eliminate the small companies like Linspire & XenderOS cos that would lead to better profit for Novell & Rad hat.

The only reason they don't buy them right now, cos they have to fight MS in the desktop space, & if a small company is doing some R&D like Colonical for GNOME, then Novell can simply use the enhancement made by Colonical in SuSe for free without paying any licensing cost to Colonical. So its better to leave Colonical where it is right now & let them do research & developement at there own expance which later on Novell can use in Suse.

I will make it simple for you, cos you don't seem to know anything about how business is done.

Suppose you open a burger shop at a place where there are already many burger shops. Now, obviously you won't make much profit margin cos you just like any other shop, are selling burgers. However if your burgers are big (read : better) or if most of the other burger shops close down, your profit margin will increase. This is same as killing the competition to make more money.


> _Being a fanboy is NOT a reason to lecture about how Linux can be "windows compatible"_.


Read above on how business is done.



> But How can a monopoly digest that?and it's supporters(i mean hard-core fanboy's that is!) too.


*Dude, those ethics etc sounds nice on paper, but are irrelevant in real life & business. *If we assume that then Novell should not charge for SuSe too, & if they do they are bad, right?




> So personally i felt first thing to do is US goverment shud liquidate this company for looting the world for the past 15+ years and for a weak product been selled as "superior".


 and give up one of the biggest tax paying machine in USA, you must be joking right. Don't you think it is Windows & Microsoft which made computing so much cheaper & widely accepted today? When MS released Windows 98, Linux was infant. When MS released Windows 95 with GUI, Linux was at CLI. The users saw that Windows is better for there use, so they started using it. 





> US/World gov shud ask other companies and individuals to come forward and innovate.why shud we stop at Linux-go on..make better OS's and softwares by people allover the world.


They are not stopping anyone. You wanna make a product then make it. If the consumer finds it easy for them then sure they will switch to it. Not everyone is geek like us. There are many people who don't want to wait for a codec pack to download from the multiverse in ubuntu, they just wanna play the mp3 they have. Simple.



> Microsoft cant be believed at any cost.M$ if possible,will try to kill even apple inc. too.so know the devil from its color atleast now it is su*king us for past 15 years!.


One simple line : Stop whining & start working together.



			
				vish said:
			
		

> and linux does not require softwares which u mentioned. it already has alternatives.


Lolz  alternatives like

Openoffice : Provides 40% features & ease of use compared to MS office
Pidgin : Provides text only chat compared to Trilian or Yahoo Messenger or WL messenger in Windows
Totem, rythembox, XINE : non standerd & non-unified media playback engine which won't play everything & doesn't even support hardware acceleration of audio & video

Ya right, Linux has infant alternatives which still need quite some time to develop.


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## zyberboy (Jun 19, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Don't you think it is Windows & Microsoft which made computing so much cheaper & widely accepted today? When MS released Windows 98, Linux was infant. When MS released Windows 95 with GUI, Linux was at CLI. The users saw that Windows is better for there use, so they started using it..


Rightly said no one can ignore the fact...windows made a research box of 80's  to a common mans companion....and  the reason for mass acceptance among general people.


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## Sykora (Jun 19, 2007)

> Don't you think it is Windows & Microsoft which made computing so much cheaper & widely accepted today? When MS released Windows 98, Linux was infant. When MS released Windows 95 with GUI, Linux was at CLI.



Are you equating mass acceptance with superiority?


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## eddie (Jun 20, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> 1) NTFS read & write support, more native compared to NTFS 3G, you do know that NTFS 3G is still lacking in few areas
> 
> 2) DirectShow Video Engine
> 
> ...


 1) Why don't you educate us? Why don't you tell us what kind of features Linux needs to implement in NTFS-3G to make the current implementation better? Don't come out and talk rubbish like quota and encryption or I will laugh in your face.

2) Technology is not POSIX compliant. Can not work in Linux. We already have good enough back ends for encoding/decoding Videos.

3) Why should Linux distros even care?

4) Read point 2 regarding POSIX

5) LOL! Even the inventor of the technology, Windows Vista, is not finding enough devices for Sideshow...why should Linux even bother? OSS community has better things to do right now.

6) Evolution is exchange server compliant. In any case, considering the miserable server presence of Microsoft, any compatibility between Linux and Exchange Server will help only Microsoft...not the other way around.

7) Helps Windows Mobile Edition. Not the other way around.

8) Google SoC projects are working on it WITHOUT any help from Microsoft.





> Lots more thing, Windows is just full of technologies.


Microsoft doesn't even want to support popular file systems like ext3 & Reiserfs and you come in here lecturing us about collaboration and technologies? Gawwd!!!



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Openoffice : Provides 40% features & ease of use compared to MS office


Is free...doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Suitable for 80% of home users.





> Pidgin : Provides text only chat compared to Trilian or Yahoo Messenger or WL messenger in Windows


OpenWengo...Gizmo...Ekiga ring a bell to you?





> Totem, rythembox, XINE : non standerd & non-unified media playback engine which won't play everything & *doesn't even support hardware acceleration of audio & video*


Go back in your cave and stay there.





> Ya right, Linux has infant alternatives which still need quite some time to develop.


 Talks the troll who knows bull about Linux alternatives.


----------



## vish786 (Jun 20, 2007)

@eddie

and look at  points with which he's argueing...  which  are almost irrelevant  and makes no sense to make ubuntu compatible with windows...  all are just rubbish.


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## amitava82 (Jun 20, 2007)

Well thats what fanboys do.. "Talk Rubbish"


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 20, 2007)

@ eddie.



> 1) Why don't you educate us? Why don't you tell us what kind of features Linux needs to implement in NTFS-3G to make the current implementation better? Don't come out and talk rubbish like quota and encryption or I will laugh in your face.



You say MS should support EXT3 etc, well...then shouldn't Linux also suppor NTFS?



> 2) Technology is not POSIX compliant. Can not work in Linux. We already have good enough back ends for encoding/decoding Videos.



Does it matters? It works compared to XINE & Gstreamer.



> 3) Why should Linux distros even care?



Cos Windows Media Player with DirectShow engine is much better then anything Linux has to offer. VLC is good but not even bundled. And this "why should we care" attitude has to go.



> 5) LOL! Even the inventor of the technology, Windows Vista, is not finding enough devices for Sideshow...why should Linux even bother? OSS community has better things to do right now.



Asus, MSI, Quanta they are all coming with SideShow laptops, even Remote manufacturers are coming with Sideshow remote controls.



> 6) Evolution is exchange server compliant. In any case, considering the miserable server presence of Microsoft, any compatibility between Linux and Exchange Server will help only Microsoft...not the other way around.



Again, you really don't know how business is done. If MS releases Exchange server for Linux then companies can simply use this & save on Windows based nodes. The client can run free Linux OS & still retain Exchange server capability. As far as I know, Evolution is a Mail client not a mail server.


> 7) Helps Windows Mobile Edition. Not the other way around.



Read above, the user can use free Linux & still use his Windows Mobile device.



> Go back in your cave and stay there.



Reply to my question properly, tell me if XINE & Gstreamer support hardware decoding & acceleration with full features like Inverse telecine etc or not.


----------



## amitava82 (Jun 20, 2007)

1. We already have NTFS support for Linux.. remember ntfs-3g? Now its your turn...

2. Gstreamer can provide hardware acceleration via OpenMAX

3. How long it takes to install vlc? 3-4 clicks may be? Less than what windows takes.

4. Why do even we have to care about MS exchange server? We already have open source alternatives. One of them is  Open-Xchange

5. Let your slideshow products become mainstream product. By that time Linux will have support for it.

6. There are plenty of synchronization applications for linux such as Mulisync, OpenSync, and SyncE. Evolutions does a good job for calenders, todo etc..


----------



## eddie (Jun 20, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> You say MS should support EXT3 etc, well...then shouldn't Linux also suppor NTFS?


No. *YOU* said that Linux should have more NTFS features and I just said that the competition doesn't have even minuscule support for *NIX file systems. Why should Linux bother with more features for NTFS? First ask Microsoft (or any other Windows developer for that matter) to provide safe Read/Write operations for ext3/ReiserFS/JFS/XFS and then we will think more about NTFS.





> It works compared to XINE & Gstreamer.


Xine, Gstreamer, mplayer and VLC work daily for hundreds of thousands of Linux users around the world. If it would not have worked...why do you think people want to stick to them? Do you think Linux users don't see any videos on their systems?





> *Cos Windows Media Player with DirectShow engine is much better then anything Linux has to offer.*


When I'll have a mood of listening to jokes...I'll give heed to your comments.





> Asus, MSI, Quanta they are all coming with SideShow laptops, even Remote manufacturers are coming with Sideshow remote controls.


Then the manufacturers should provide drivers. The onus of providing drivers should be on Manufacturers...not on the OS developer.





> Again, you really don't know how business is done.


Yes and till now you have proven yourself to be just better than Donald Trump. Isn't it?





> If MS releases Exchange server for Linux then companies can simply use this & save on Windows based nodes. The client can run free Linux OS & still retain Exchange server capability. As far as I know, Evolution is a Mail client not a mail server.


This is your high quality business sense? Even if Microsoft releases Exchange Server for Linux...will they give it out for free? No! They will still charge for it and will charge the same amount as they do on Windows. Result? It will just help Microsoft to reach more markets while not helping Linux at all!!! Business sense...get real!





> Read above, the user can use free Linux & still use his Windows Mobile device.


Thus helping Windows Mobile Edition...not the other way around.





> Reply to my question properly, tell me if XINE & Gstreamer support hardware decoding & acceleration with full features like Inverse telecine etc or not.


 Linux handles Video acceleration by splitting it between video driver and the video backend. In Linux, driver which is the core of video decoding handles full "hardware acceleration" and just FYI...mplayer, a *NIX only player, is the FIRST PLAYER in this whole wide world to support a inverse telecine filter. So before throwing big names randomly in a thread...at least see what the technology does and who brought it to use first.

I have four choices for you now to select.
a) You know nothing about alternate OS and its technologies but like to troll & lie.
b) You know nothing about alternate OS and its technologies but like to troll & lie.
c) You know nothing about alternate OS and its technologies but like to troll & lie.
d) Of course you know nothing about alternate OS and its technologies but like to troll & lie.

Pick your option...


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 20, 2007)

vish786 said:
			
		

> lol... who has the feel good factor... me for linux or u for windows ?


 the feel good factor that new Linux users have when they install or use linux for the first time .



			
				vish786 said:
			
		

> and look at  points with which he's argueing...  which  are almost irrelevant  and makes no sense to make ubuntu compatible with windows...  all are just rubbish.


 when someone tried to collaborate with u , u decline their offer .

DirectX is one microsoft technology that is definitely superior to any other library out their , OpenGL doesn't stand anywhere near it .

Also DirectX is not just for 3D programming as u might think .

DirectX is made up of these major components :

DirectDraw: for drawing 2D Graphics
Direct3D (D3D): for drawing 3D graphics
DirectInput: for interfacing with keyboards, mice, joysticks, or other game controllers
DirectSound: for the playback and recording of waveform sound
DirectSound3D (DS3D): for the playback of 3D sounds.
 and the best thing is that all these components are interoperable and come in a single package , thus allowing for better performance and reliability .



			
				amitava82 said:
			
		

> 1. We already have NTFS support for Linux.. remember ntfs-3g? Now its your turn...
> 
> 2. Gstreamer can provide hardware acceleration via OpenMAX
> 
> ...


 well , if u start making alternatives for each and every technology out there because u don't like the way it works then there'l be no industry standard and the situation will be like the state a linux desktop is today . some app uses Library A for doing one thing , the other app uses Library B for doing the same thing .....



			
				eddie said:
			
		

> Thus helping Windows Mobile Edition...not the other way around.


 u only said that the Intentions of GNU/Linux developers were noble . so if ur product helps any other product is it wrong ?

u mean to say that Linux shouldn't support Windows Mobile devices just because they are manufactured by Microsoft . they are the same as say , any nokia or Sony phone out there , y not support them too ? or are ur thoughts too envious .


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## mediator (Jun 20, 2007)

> When MS released Windows 95 with GUI, Linux was at CLI. The users saw that Windows is better for there use, so they started using it.


And now when Beryl has been released which uses much less resources than AERO, windows fanboys r saying this is not needed? I wonder why they were hyping so much about the WOW and the aero effect and now changing colors like a chameleon?



> Not everyone is geek like us.


 Finally u said "us" and matured from an average joe to a "common sensed" geek?



> Openoffice : Provides 40% features & ease of use compared to MS office


 Here a thread in which I asked "all" the window fanboys to quote the differences, but I wonder why "all" of em were rendered speechless!! And now ur back to FUDS!



> Pidgin : Provides text only chat compared to Trilian or Yahoo Messenger or WL messenger in Windows


 There's something called "gyach". Research on it first. It gives comparable features!

And since u again started making comparisons, then why do u refrain from kernel comparisons i.e the base? Like the thread starter said " You can judge the winner"!!



> VLC is good but not even bundled.


 MS-Office "may" be better, but it is not even bundled, nor is photoshop or yahoo messenger or the "drivers" etc etc!! Do u even buy all these things or u go against ur companies advocations?



			
				zeeshan said:
			
		

> the feel good factor that new Linux users have when they install or use linux for the first time


 And the feel good factor MS-win-fanboys have is by spreading FUDs. They feel like that they impressed their boss!

So I again request to stop spreading FUDS!!

Neways I wanted to ask if WMP can play media ISO files "directly"?


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## vish786 (Jun 20, 2007)

Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> the feel good factor that new Linux users have when they install or use linux for the first time .


* i'm using knoppix (2000),red hat(2000) & fedora from long back dude. This is not by first hand on linux. and i know pretty well from when i'm using linux. but yes i am using ubuntu and some other new distros from recently, i dont have to produce some proof for that.*

*and if ur guessing my experience according to my post counts then thats pretty lame.
*


			
				Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> when someone tried to collaborate with u , u decline their offer .


* read the article what praka123 has posted, it was windows who tried to kick linux a$$ in the beginning, and didnt care much about linux as they knew linux was not a threat for them at that time... but when linux started developing, they knew this will be problematic if linux spreads to greater extent so now they are collaborating why didnt they think of collaborating before.

 and the deal which bill gates(microsoft) wanted to make was a way of bringing linux under their control.* 

*Offtopic: u remember when i asked u something in yahoo messenger and u ran off all of sudden... but still i private messaged you many times and u never replied to it. What is that suppose to mean ?? 

* *and why the hell am i wasting my time in this dumb discussion, i told earlier i'm staying out of it as it fetches nothing.  that is why mehulved and other good linux users are not interfering in this.
*


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## eddie (Jun 20, 2007)

Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> u only said that the Intentions of GNU/Linux developers were noble . so if ur product helps any other product is it wrong ?
> 
> u mean to say that Linux shouldn't support Windows Mobile devices just because they are manufactured by Microsoft . they are the same as say , any nokia or Sony phone out there , y not support them too ? or are ur thoughts too envious .


 Having noble intentions doesn't mean being stupid. GNU/Linux developers and community can differentiate between a Grinch and a Santa Claus when they see one. No matter if the former comes wearing latter's clothes.

If Microsoft wants to grow with help from Linux then they should ask humbly and politely while creating a helpful environment. Alleging that Linux violates their patents and then claiming that they want to "collaborate" is not going to work. This is not known as being envious...this is known as being sensible. Clearly you have animosity towards any kind of common sense.


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 20, 2007)

vish786 said:
			
		

> *Offtopic: u remember when i asked u something in yahoo messenger and u ran off all of sudden... but still i private messaged you many times and u never replied to it. What is that suppose to mean ?? *


*First things first . Well mostly my mother doesn't allow me to use the computer and i have to do it err.......... secretly(somewhat) and sometimes she finds out and i have to immediately shut down or else risk my system being taken apart 

Yups , u can confirm this from GX , my LCD monitor is taken away like every two weeks and then returned after a day or two after i've coaxed my mother into it 

And , i seriously do not remember what ur problem was , coz i've been having my exams in march and today too i've just had an exam , so u see studies pressure is very high for me(XII after all) and i sometimes loose track of my online activities .



			
				eddie said:
			
		


			Having noble intentions doesn't mean being stupid.
		
Click to expand...

 Now i'm not gonna go into a debate Eddie , but i simply want to say just support windows mobile devices , it's only the consumers who will be benefit from it(who r very important) and just as Novell and MS are collaborating if they work with Ubuntu too then i think thatll be great .*


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## amitava82 (Jun 20, 2007)

I don't understand this. Why this is always linux community's responsibility to support a device (make driver)? You always want us to support, develop driver for every little device out there without any help from the device's manufacturer. This is ridiculous..!! You don't want to share information about the device but want us to support it and we took you wish for grunted. Open source developers are working hard to support every device without any help from manufacturer. Don't you think its Microsoft's responsibility to support their little device and come up with linux version of their Active Sync or whatever is needed to work with Linux? After all this is their product and their consumers. When you buy iPod, do you expect Microsoft to make iTune for it?


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## eddie (Jun 21, 2007)

Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> Now i'm not gonna go into a debate Eddie , but i simply want to say just support windows mobile devices , it's only the consumers who will be benefit from it(who r very important)


 Linux distros and developers are doing everything they can to provide the best user experience to their users. If you want something more...the code is open...submit patches and become a hero.





> and just as Novell and MS are collaborating if they work with Ubuntu too then i think thatll be great .


Collaborations are done with parties having genuine interests; Not with extortionists who would keep a gun to your head and say..."Either collaborate or we shoot".


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 21, 2007)

amitava82 said:
			
		

> After all this is their product and their consumers. When you buy iPod, do you expect Microsoft to make iTune for it?


 Well it is Microsoft's product and they are supporting it on the platform with the largest share .

also , Mac OSX developers have made apps to work with windows mobile although microsoft didn't commision them to do so .

so , there's no incentive to switch over to linux when u already have all the stuff you need .

ppl will only switch when linux suports their devices "out of the box" , which is a thing linux developers have to take care of not Microsoft.



			
				amitava82 said:
			
		

> You don't want to share information about the device but want us to support it and we took you wish for grunted.


 here all the information you will ever need to know about developing for the Windows Mobile platform on Microsoft Developer Network..

*msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/windowsmobile/default.aspx


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## gxsaurav (Jun 21, 2007)

> here all the information you will ever need to know about developing for the Windows Mobile platform on Microsoft Developer Network..
> 
> *msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/win...e/default.aspx



Lingeeks will never see that link. They don't do research on MS technologies at all, if they start doing then even ubuntu will have Nokia PC Suite equivalent


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## kumarmohit (Jun 21, 2007)

Hmph, I wanted to stay away from this debate but with fanboys having swords drawn on both sides, I think I must make a last ditch effort for peace. 

The problem of or should I say weakness of Linux Zealots is that most of the time, instead of pointing out with solid facts and features about their products which make them better than CLOSED Source products, they are always criticising Microsoft for being a devil of a company (Which it is to a certain extent).

Same is the case with windows fanboys who keep on claiming wat a failure or a me too success Linux has been?

(Need I mention ppl for apple who think that everything not coming out from Cupertino should go straight away to a trashcan)

But the basic strategy drawback of FOSS movement in general and Linux fundamentalists in particular is that instead of trying to project their product as superior, they concentrate more on talking about MS making inferior product.

But even if MS does make inferior products why is it successful?
Because not many people who use computers but do no know how it works, for example, the cashier at the bank counter, or Indian Railways Ticket counter clerk or your University's administrative staff either DO NOT know of something called Linux, most of those who know think its still stuck @ CLI. I am in a law college and in my class of 80 67 ppl have computers, of these 23 have heard of linux and I am the only one ever to have seen a beryl screenshot. One girl who has no computer she has heard about linux though she has never used it because her brother is "RHCE or other some cap like thing " in her words.

People on the road are not concerned how evil MS is!!!. They look for actual benefits. And how can they know about it? What made FFx run a two page ad in a major newspaper?

Linux is ruling where ppl are aware of its power ie in server mkt, its there not because MS is evil, its there because Linux is better. Remember No OS is perferct, If Windows has th blue screen of death, Linux is also plagued by Kernel panic, If Linux has the Dependency Hell, Windows has the DLL hell. while all this is becoming lesser it still happens. 

And when this happens to a normal computer user he gets scared to death in any case. So instead of having aggressive negotiations on how MS is evil or FOSS is a failure, why do not we people concentrate more on how an end user can benefit from each????


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## gxsaurav (Jun 21, 2007)

Wasn't it a Linux foundation which was on the verge to Kill Vista, i guess Mark Shuttleworth was the founder of that too...

& who is running badvista.org?

& Who sings the same tune "Vista has DRM". 

Lingeeks, deal with it. if Vista has DRM then it also allows u to play DRM content which believe it or not is the only thing available to many users worldwide. It isn't Microsoft which included DRM in Vista, it was the RIAA & MPAA which forced MS to do so.

El Jobso revealed Leopard a few days ago but there is no mention whether it can play DRM content or not. The existing Macs do not come with HDCP based graphics cards either. This means all the Macboys running Macbook, Macbook Pro or iMac can forget to ever play HD DVD & Blue Ray content, cos to play them they will need to buy a completely new Mac with a new HD Drive & Graphics Card. Even if you use an external Drive, you still cannot play cos your Macbook or iMac comes without a HDCP based graphics card.

Vista can play Blue Ray or HD DVD out of the box due to DRM in it, Linux cannot. Do you expect a consumer to use Linux & then rely on internet to download & research for so many packages when the state of broadband is pathetic in India.

There are always hacks though  but how many people know about it.

Instead of singing why MS is evil & monopoly, get your gears straight & make something compelling enough to give Microsoft a competition in Desktop state.


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## kumarmohit (Jun 21, 2007)

No GX, the problem is that FOSS does have better alternatives, but instead of telling people how their product is better, they consider it a better pasttime to bash Closed source products and tell how bad they are?

Take 7Zip why is it not more popular than winzip or Winrar despite being much better, Take Miranda IM snd compare it to MSN, Miranda does a lot more things from multi protocol IM to RSS and weather updates and everything there are plugins for.

Why was FFx a success, coz instead of concentrating more on how bad IE is they concentrated on how FFx is better!

FOSS people, Do not tell people what the problem is unless you also shout equally loudly that you have a better reply and how is it better (Which you have in a lot of cases, infact in almost 99% cases)


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## gxsaurav (Jun 21, 2007)

Not quite, from what I see there are many things I can do in Windows Vista which I cannot in Linux due to lack of feature. But thats just my point of view.


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 21, 2007)

kumarmohit said:
			
		

> Take 7Zip why is it not more popular than winzip or Winrar despite being much better


 i worldn't comment on the better part but of all things , it is FREE and that's what matters .

i've been telling everyone i know to , use 7Zip ever since i used it, firstly bcoz it is free and secondly it's install size is just 700Kb so u can easily download it or fit it into any media.


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## mediator (Jun 21, 2007)

> Instead of singing why MS is evil & monopoly, get your gears straight & make something compelling enough to give Microsoft a competition in Desktop state.


 Competition? I wonder what made MS suffer a major constipation that it shouted so much about the 230+ patents that it thought were being infringed by OSS!!

Surely if MS likes to spread FUDs and its fanboys following those preachings and stating about the 10 year old face of Linux then I guess acknowledging the masses of the evils of MS and its "closed source" products, which I guess they had a hard time to code even the basics properly and then shamelessly releasing an update for it, is nuthing in comparison at all!

If the MS-fanboys need a truce then they shud tell their boss and their beloved company to stop spreading FUDS. But is it possible? Even thinking of such a possibility wud be a big joke itself!!


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## gxsaurav (Jun 21, 2007)

^^^ So, MS is the only one spreading FUD & it is not the other way arround, right? I wonder why slashdot.org downplayes MS so much, or Apple downplays MS so much then.

Even in this forum, Linux users are spreading FUD by saying Vista has DRM in such a manner that we won't be able to use any of our video/audio, which is not the case.


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## eddie (Jun 21, 2007)

kumarmohit said:
			
		

> So instead of having aggressive negotiations on how MS is evil or FOSS is a failure, why do not we people concentrate more on how an end user can benefit from each????


 The problem with your whole post is that you are advising something that is not feasible for cash strapped FOSS community and that thing is "marketing". FOSS community does not have enough money to do marketing and reach the end users successfully...so what do they do? They sit silently and work on their projects until provoked by the Closed Source operators like Microsoft. What options does the community have except strongly condemning the whole FUD operations? If that results in to aggressive arguments then they are bound to happen.

What do you suggest for FOSS community BTW? Sit silently and not clear out the FUD that is being spread?



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Wasn't it a Linux foundation which was on the verge to Kill Vista, i guess Mark Shuttleworth was the founder of that too...
> 
> & who is running badvista.org?
> 
> ...


Wasn't it Microsoft that wants to kill Linux and tried to do it by bribing SCO & hammering on Linux roots?

Who was behind get the facts campaign and survey?

Who sings the same tune that FOSS products infringe patents?

Microidiots deal with it.





> Vista can play Blue Ray or HD DVD out of the box due to DRM in it, Linux cannot.


Didn't we hear the same things when DVD region locking was becoming popular? Yes we did and what is the situation now? Linux can play all the DVDs. Thank you for your concern but this is utter BS.


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## kumarmohit (Jun 21, 2007)

eddie said:
			
		

> The problem with your whole post is that you are advising something that is not feasible for cash strapped FOSS community and that thing is "marketing". FOSS community does not have enough money to do marketing and reach the end users successfully...so what do they do? They sit silently and work on their projects until provoked by the Closed Source operators like Microsoft. What options does the community have except strongly condemning the whole FUD operations? If that results in to aggressive arguments then they are bound to happen.
> 
> What do you suggest for FOSS community BTW? Sit silently and not clear out the FUD that is being spread?



AWww Come on, Dont tell me that FOSS community is cash strapped! This is the most <Heck I cant find the proper word> argument i have ever heard. Matthew Szulik, Mark Shuttleworth, Hundreds of thousands of donaters from all over the world and FOSS has no money!

Spare me this argument.

No do not sit silently against the FUD it would be worse than agreeing to it. But instead of shouting youself hoarse wat a devil incarnate MS is tell why and how is FOSS better. Do not keep on beating the drum of problems until you can couple it with the music of your solution!

If you call it marketing so be it! Do it! Its a helluva lot better than propaganda. Because most of the people in the offline world find the constant anti MS bickering by FOSS community to be a form of propaganda and Crusading which FOSS fundamentalists think they are doing gets unknowingly morphed into propaganda.

Do not tell people how bad MS is. People of the world are intelligent enuf to decide when MS is crossing the Lakshman Rekha. Let them decide the culpabililty of MS. How can FOSS be the judge in case where it is the opposite party?

The principle of natural justice is that no one who is a party to a dispute or competetion, can be allowed to be its judge. Unfortunately this is what FOSS fundamentalists try to be most of the times.

So all MS fanboys and linux fundamentalists please let the end user be the final judge  and stop criticising each other.


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## gxsaurav (Jun 21, 2007)

If you wanna counter Microsoft, then make something good enough for the end user. Make "Essential Linux Apps" packages of 200 or 300 MB & bundle them with CD of magazines like Digit or Chip.

Market the pain Linux distro's more.

include propriety codecs in paid linux. No consumer cares if it is propriety or not if it works fine & right now, Linux doesn't work out of the box right how while Windows & Mac work. Learn something from Firefox that instead of *****ing about IE 7 came out with something which appealed to the masses.

And for gods sake, learn to read the documentation provided by Yahoo, MSN, Office 2007, Windows Mobile etc. If you think Yahoo protocol is locked then how do u think Trillian is supporting webcam using Yahoo Protocol? (example).

If you think Linux is good, then prove it. Right now Linux is good just for geeks. Ubuntu 6.06 didn't even came with a Dial-up internet dialer, you had to download it, now u tell me if this is good. The majority of world & computer users out there are off line & they don't know anything beyond Windows & Mac cos that works out of the box. Windows installs anywhere, support is easily available, everything works in it, now you tell me why should a user jump to linux like this. I have seen users here who left Linux & went to buy Vista Home Premium retail despite of Linux being free just cos Linux was cumbersome for them to work. Your first job should be to make this cumbersomeness go.

You call Beryl good? It doesn't work with most of the graphics card out there, it is quite unstable & Woobly windows & Cube doesn't makes it better then Aero. Vector & Resolution independent UI will or better yet something like WPF/Aqua in which the Windows are treated as textures parallel to Monitor because of which there is no Window or Palette tearing


----------



## eddie (Jun 21, 2007)

kumarmohit said:
			
		

> AWww Come on, Dont tell me that FOSS community is cash strapped! This is the most <Heck I cant find the proper word> argument i have ever heard. Matthew Szulik, Mark Shuttleworth, Hundreds of thousands of donaters from all over the world and FOSS has no money!


Do you really think that Redhat and Canonical have even remotely comparable financial strength to compete Microsoft on marketing turf? If you think so then I also can't find proper words to describe your thinking. BTW if Redhat and Canonical does have the amount of money you tend to believe then what makes them not go all out against Microsoft in marketing? Do you think they are greedy or are they miser?

BTW...did you ever donate to Ubuntu? Just wondering...not questioning.





> No do not sit silently against the FUD it would be worse than agreeing to it. But instead of shouting youself hoarse wat a devil incarnate MS is tell why and how is FOSS better. Do not keep on beating the drum of problems until you can couple it with the music of your solution!


No one...and I repeat NO ONE beats the drum of problems FOSS community faces. All the blog posts and other articles you see condemning Microsoft would be straight forward fact sheets explaining people that how MS has been and is lying. I don't see how to make things clearer in any other way.





> If you call it marketing so be it! Do it! Its a helluva lot better than propaganda. Because most of the people in the offline world find the constant anti MS bickering by FOSS community to be a form of propaganda and Crusading which FOSS fundamentalists think they are doing gets unknowingly morphed into propaganda.


I wonder about your knowledge regarding "offline world". I mean offline world can see that FOSS community is "bickering" but they can't see Microsoft lying? Should I accept that statement or should I throw it back at you to review?





> Do not tell people how bad MS is. People of the world are intelligent enuf to decide when MS is crossing the Lakshman Rekha. Let them decide the culpabililty of MS. How can FOSS be the judge in case where it is the opposite party?


...but no one decided anything. People just put the facts in front of other people. You call that propaganda? I call that providing proofs.





> The principle of natural justice is that no one who is a party to a dispute or competetion, can be allowed to be its judge. Unfortunately this is what FOSS fundamentalists try to be most of the times.


Either you do not have the knowledge about the way FOSS is reacting against Microsoft's FUD or you have a flawed vision of things. No one is being a judge. The only thing FOSS community is doing is to provide facts about how Microsoft plays its dirty games. As far as natural justice is concerned...no one is trying to be a judge but putting one's allegations on table is allowed everywhere and thats what is being done.


----------



## kumarmohit (Jun 21, 2007)

Oh Please, Dont tell me Shuttleworth is a poor fellow or Shipit wont have been raining free cds around the world nor RedHat has no money! Naturally they have money but why do it when you can get free of cost propaganda from overzealous FOSS fundametalists.



> BTW...did you ever donate to Ubuntu? Just wondering...not questioning.



No I do not donate, but I do not use it either, I do donate to ReactOS FYI.



> No one...and I repeat NO ONE beats the drum of problems FOSS community faces.



I am not talking about FOSS beating the drums of the problems it faces. In ALL my posts whenever I have used or the word problem or any such phrase, The phrase has always been used to refer to the monopolistic practises of MS, never in any other sense.



> I wonder about your knowledge regarding "offline world". I mean offline world can see that FOSS community is "bickering" but they can't see Microsoft lying? Should I accept that statement or should I throw it back at you to review?



Again you underestimate the intelligence of Offline world. Naturally they can see through the marketing of MS and they regard constant bickering of FOSS fundamentalists as propaganda. For the offline world, Marketing is just an itch but propaganda is a pain! That's why I keep on telling FOSS fundamentalists to stop propagada and start marketing.

Let me clarify the difference in marketing and propaganda for everyone to understand - While marketing is laying more stress on the positive points of your products, propaganda is laying more stress on how the rival is out to make the world into its slave that is more stress on negatives of the rival.



> ...but no one decided anything. People just put the facts in front of other people. You call that propaganda? I call that providing proofs.



How, when, where???

You call sites like BadVista.org giving the facts? 
Sorry but most people call it propaganda, because it focuses more protraying Vista as a bad product than portraying Linux as THE alternative to move on!

You give Vista DRM a devil's figurehead level in India!!!

Seriously dude! Is DRM a problem in India? Go ask some someone nextdoor if he knows what DRM is.

All along I have been crtical of the Overly Negative approach of FOSS Zealots regardless of it being against MS inparticular and closed source in general instead of being postive about how and why foss is better.


> The only thing FOSS community is doing is to provide facts about how Microsoft plays its dirty games. As far as natural justice is concerned...no one is trying to be a judge but putting one's allegations on table is allowed everywhere and thats what is being done.



Not being the judge!!! Putting allegations is one thing, but shouting all the time that MS is a bad company like the deatheaters and its products are like the dark mark is giving judgement.

Most of the FOSS platforms do not give Closed source community a chance to reply before they start playing the judge jury and executioner. Same is it the other way back when closed source people do their FUD.

The problem is niether FOSS nor MS, the problem is bigotry and fudamentalism of the people who think it as their duty to be the technological masiha (evangelist, if you may please).

Try to lay more stress on how FOSS is good instead of shouting how bad MS is, Try to be positive for a change.

(Heck I am out of this, I wanted to bring peace, but fanboys and fundamentalists have made me a party to fight as well)


----------



## eddie (Jun 21, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Market the pain Linux distro's more.


Give them money...it will be done.





> include propriety codecs in paid linux. No consumer cares if it is propriety or not if it works fine & right now


...and leave themselves open to law suites?





> Linux doesn't work out of the box right how while Windows does


Windows works out of the box? The hell man...an OS that wants its user to install chipset drivers works out of the box? You need to install your Sound card, LAN Card, modem drivers, webcam drivers, printer drivers, scanner drivers and don't know how many other drivers. I can't play my audio and video files in it...can't open my office documents in it...doesn't have a half decent image editor or instant messaging program and you call it working "out of the box"? Go and joke some place else.





> If you think Yahoo protocol is locked then how do u think Trillian is supporting webcam using Yahoo Protocol? (example).


You have already been informed about GyachI. Also, if you think that Yahoo protocol is so "open" than how come Yahoo! and MSN induced frequent changes in their protocols just to lock out 3rd part instant messenger? The world is not as hunky dory as you think it is.





> Ubuntu 6.06 didn't even came with a Dial-up internet dialer, you had to download it, now u tell me if this is good.


Ubuntu has network manager and you can configure your dial up connection from there. It was in System --> Administration --> Networking. You don't even need a separate program. It is good? Yes it is.





> I have seen users here who left Linux & went to buy Vista Home Premium retail despite of Linux being free just cos Linux was cumbersome for them to work. Your first job should be to make this cumbersomeness go.


We have seen the opposite as well. People leaving Windows for Linux. Yours truly and many others are examples of the same. I don't know what cumbersomeness you are talking about.





> You call Beryl good? It doesn't work with most of the graphics card out there, it is quite unstable & Woobly windows & Cube doesn't makes it better then Aero.


Beryl/Compiz is a work in progress. If you don't like cube and wobbly windows...disable them.





> Vector & Resolution independent UI will or better yet something like WPF/Aqua in which the Windows are treated as textures parallel to Monitor because of which there is no Window or Palette tearing


 Vector UI using SVG has been working for GNOME since sometime now.


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## mediator (Jun 21, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> ^^^ So, MS is the only one spreading FUD & it is not the other way arround, right? I wonder why slashdot.org downplayes MS so much, or Apple downplays MS so much then.
> 
> Even in this forum, Linux users are spreading FUD by saying Vista has DRM in such a manner that we won't be able to use any of our video/audio, which is not the case.


 Ofcors! But here we have the case where the No.1 company in the world is a leader in spreading FUDS. Thats also a part of business. So expecting  peace from MS is "insensible"!!

And playing DRMed content, is supporting it. Why not boycott it? 



			
				kumarmohit said:
			
		

> No do not sit silently against the FUD it would be worse than agreeing to it. But instead of shouting youself hoarse wat a devil incarnate MS is tell why and how is FOSS better. Do not keep on beating the drum of problems until you can couple it with the music of your solution!


 And thats what linux users are doing dear i.e telling "how FOSS is better" and then that better part becomes relative. Relative to what? Now the "closed source" concept will be obviously brought in between at some point of time to show the advantages of open source. Please ponder over the issue before showing ur noble mediation.



			
				gx said:
			
		

> No consumer cares if it is propriety or not if it works fine & right now, Linux doesn't work out of the box right how while Windows & Mac work.


 U think all the consumers are "average joes"? Why was Dell and others  flooded with emails asking to give em Linux preinstalled? Don't u think it has "also" to do with "reduced prices"? 
Neways I wonder when u'll stop singing the tune of "out of box" when there r so many Linux distros giving u that "out of box" experience!



> You call Beryl good? It doesn't work with most of the graphics card out there, it is quite unstable & Woobly windows & Cube doesn't makes it better then Aero. Vector & Resolution independent UI will or better yet something like WPF/Aqua in which the Windows are treated as textures parallel to Monitor because of which there is no Window or Palette tearing


 Again FUDs!!?? U think any feature that is not in Aero is unnecessary? BTW todays Linuxes IMO look far more beautiful than VISTA even without beryl.
Neways by ur analogy do u want me to label IIS as pathetic becoz it doesn't run on any other OS??

And I questioned if WMP can play media ISO files directly. I wonder why I didn't get any reply!

And please don't fill the discussion with comparisons now and start all over again!!



			
				kumarmohit said:
			
		

> Seriously dude! Is DRM a problem in India? Go ask some someone nextdoor if he knows what DRM is.


On one hand u r preaching awareness and on other u think the enlightened souls will remain ignorant about DRM? Hypocrisy rulezz in ur mind!


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 21, 2007)

eddieand leave themselves open to law suites?[/quote said:
			
		

> Did you read what I wrote? Paid Linux distributions like Mandriva etc can easily license prosperity codec & pay the codec vendor the licensing fees. Just include FFDShow for gods sake after paying license fees. The over cost of distribution will still be less then $100 which isn't much to pay for an OS if it can work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## eddie (Jun 21, 2007)

kumarmohit said:
			
		

> No I do not donate, but I do not use it either, I do donate to ReactOS FYI.


Oh! Weird I did not see any marketing from ReactOS. The marketing efforts were not India centric or you did not donate enough?





> Again you underestimate the intelligence of Offline world. Naturally they can see through the marketing of MS and they regard constant bickering of FOSS fundamentalists as propaganda. For the offline world, Marketing is just an itch but propaganda is a pain! That's why I keep on telling FOSS fundamentalists to stop propagada and start marketing.


It is funny that you say this just a few posts after you said that people have not even heard about Linux. They have never heard about Linux but they are already looking through the marketing of MS and FOSS "propaganda"? Hmm...cool!





> Let me clarify the difference in marketing and propaganda for everyone to understand - While marketing is laying more stress on the positive points of your products, propaganda is laying more stress on how the rival is out to make the world into its slave that is more stress on negatives of the rival.


If this is the actual definition that you believe in then I don't see how FOSS is doing a propaganda. FOSS supporters just reply back to clear the FUD being spread by Microsoft.





> You call sites like BadVista.org giving the facts?
> Sorry but most people call it propaganda, because it focuses more protraying Vista as a bad product than portraying Linux as THE alternative to move on!


It just tells the world that DRM is not the solution. It is comparable to people agitating against reservations in studies or against non-vegetarianism. If it hurts...then its good...cos that is what it is intended to do. Also, it is funny that you never posted anything against Microsoft's patent claims but you are getting so touchy about a single website?





> You give Vista DRM a devil's figurehead level in India!!!
> 
> Seriously dude! Is DRM a problem in India? Go ask some someone nextdoor if he knows what DRM is.


Ermm...is this you or someone else? Do you change stance so often and so fast?
*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54815&highlight=yash+raj





> All along I have been crtical of the Overly Negative approach of FOSS Zealots regardless of it being against MS inparticular and closed source in general instead of being postive about how and why foss is better.


FOSS community is doing everything they can to tell people why FOSS and Linux is better. If you post one link about badvista then I can post ten talking about "why linux". Just because you tend to see the negative side does not mean that is the only side to it.





> Not being the judge!!! Putting allegations is one thing, but shouting all the time that MS is a bad company like the deatheaters and its products are like the dark mark is giving judgement.


Don't you think you are exaggerating it? "ALL THE TIME"? Seriously?


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## gxsaurav (Jun 21, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> Ofcors! But here we have the case where the No.1 company in the world is a leader in spreading FUDS. Thats also a part of business. So expecting  peace from MS is "insensible"!!



If you know this is part of business then shut up & stop calling MS evil. Instead let users know if Linux can make there life easier.



> And playing DRMed content, is supporting it. Why not boycott it?



Like I said, Microsoft is not even allowed to integrate features in there own OS. I hope you know about the Real Player lawsuit & the recent Google Lawsuit. If they ditch DRM in Vista, then...

1) Most of the consumers will not be able to Play DRM based HD DVDs in there PC & will then blame MS for it.

2) Microsoft also works under the regulation of government bodies like RIAA & MPAA & it must comply to the rules imposed by these bodies. DoJ ordered MS to alter the search functionality in Vista & now they are forced to do it.

3) If they have no support for DRM in Vista, then they loose a big market of  offline users who are not geeks like we are & don't know how to install that crack to play Batman Begins HD.



> And thats what linux users are doing dear i.e telling "how FOSS is better" and then that better part becomes relative.



From what I have seen by Eddie & Prakash's advertising skills, it is more like saying "Get away from MS, they are devil's incarnation....noooooooooooo get out of Windows....move , shooo" 



> U think all the consumers are "average joes"? Why was Dell and others  flooded with emails asking to give em Linux preinstalled? Don't u think it has "also" to do with *"reduced prices"*?



Thats the only benefit. I hope you know that in China some OEM Manufactures were ordered not to sale a PC without an OS cos it increases piracy.



> Neways I wonder when u'll stop singing the tune of "out of box" when there r so many Linux distros giving u that "out of box" experience!



I have access to internet & knowledge base. Does my Mom have access? no. Why don't we see the ADs of Mandrive in Times of India or Mint Linux. Hell, why don't we see ADs of Mandrive in digit magazine.



> Again FUDs!!?? U think any feature that is not in Aero is unnecessary? BTW todays Linuxes IMO look far more beautiful than VISTA even without beryl.



Eddie just mentioned that Beryl is a work in progress. Well, when the work is done & it works properly without crashing then let me know. About looking good then Mac OS X looks the most beautiful but does nothing. 



> And I questioned if WMP can play media ISO files directly. I wonder why I didn't get any reply!



ISO files are CD Images, you tell me whether any OSS Media Player can play them without mounting or extracting somewhere first. If it can play without mounting or extracting then sure WMP can play it too with some plugins.



> On one hand u r preaching awareness and on other u think the enlightened souls will remain ignorant about DRM? Hypocrisy rulezz in ur mind!



Despite of DRM, why do u think iTunes & iPod became success, just cos despite of DRM people were able to get there favorite songs at $1 only instead of buying a whole CD for $12. DRM is bad but for many users out there they don't care cos all they have is one DAP like iPod & it works for them.


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## eddie (Jun 22, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Did you read what I wrote? Paid Linux distributions like Mandriva etc can easily license prosperity codec & pay the codec vendor the licensing fees. Just include FFDShow for gods sake after paying license fees. The over cost of distribution will still be less then $100 which isn't much to pay for an OS if it can work.


That is the problem with you. You don't know anything about FOSS licenses but want to project yourself as an omniscient one. FFDShow breaks numerous software patents and it CANNOT BE INCLUDED! It cannot be. Simple! It is not about money...it is about patents.





> Lolz, due to Microsoft's market share, they are not even allowed to provide features in Windows now.


A few moments ago you were talking about "out of the box" experience and suddenly you start talking about market share...law suites...CD ROMS? Funny isn't it? It hurts to know that Linux has better out of the box experience?





> Microsoft isn't making the hardware.


* So is true for Linux. Remind yourself about this fact the next time you rant about lack of drivers.*


> You can't play your audio & video files in Windows. U must be joking.* Out of the box Windows Plays mp3, wma etc* which you can extend using 3rd party codec. *Out of the box Linux plays nothing *which you can extend using 3rd party codec.


Yes I can't play my audio & video files in Windows. All of them are in OGG and Theora format. Can I play them in Windows out-of-the-box? If I can then I will accept your comments about codecs. Now, what should a user like me do? Download codecs? But you said it worked out of the box? It is funny that Windows users want Linux to support closed formats while Windows doesn't support completely open formats 


> Sorry, Microsoft cannot bundle Office 2007 with Vista.


Microsoft can not bundle this...Microsoft cannot bundle that but windows fanboys would still claim better out of the box experience and whine about codecs? Funny!





> Trillian can do it after paying some fees to Yahoo. I am more then willing to pay $2 from my $100 OS if I can use all the features in Linux.


Trillian paid Yahoo! some fees? My google search brings NOTHING. Can you prove it or is it another one of your lies?
*www.google.co.in/search?q=trillian+paid+yahoo





> Thats the thing. 95% of Linux applications are work in progress.


Are you the same user who was aggressively defending Graphics drivers for Windows vista being "work in progress"?





> even SuperKaramba has no themes so far.


OMFG! Just stfu and stop your stupidity!!! You never get tired of being proven stupid so many times?
*www.kde-look.org/index.php?xcontentmode=38





> First complete the work & then release.


Talks the guy who uses an OS that couldn't even get copy-paste working properly.





> What explanation will you give for Pidgin not supporting MSN Webcam when aMSN supports it


That developers don't have time to include it in their tree. As simple as that. If you want it so badly...time for you to submit patches?





> You got any Link or documentation for this?


 Time for you to do some work and google searching? Anyways, here is one article from 2004...just to prove that vector graphics is being used for UI development in GNOME for that many years
*times.usefulinc.com/2004/03/03-gnomeui



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> 2) Microsoft also works under the regulation of government bodies like RIAA & MPAA & it must comply to the rules imposed by these bodies.


*Can you show us the rules where RIAA and MPAA forbid Microsoft to sell or supply Windows Vista without DRM? I am as sure as death that this point of mine will be ignored by you*.





> From what I have seen by Eddie & Prakash's advertising skills, it is more like saying "Get away from MS, they are devil's incarnation....noooooooooooo get out of Windows....move , shooo"


...and you must be able to post at least 5 posts of mine saying exactly that?





> I have access to internet & knowledge base. Does my Mom have access? no. Why don't we see the ADs of Mandrive in Times of India or Mint Linux. Hell, why don't we see ADs of Mandrive in digit magazine.


Did you read about money part or do you choose to read only the things that you like?





> Eddie just mentioned that Beryl is a work in progress. Well, when the work is done & it works properly without crashing then let me know.


Time for you to look at Vista's graphics support and copy-paste slowness may be? Also, please look at the long list of bugs being discovered by Vishal Gupta...I am sure you'll be disillusioned.





> ISO files are CD Images, you tell me whether any OSS Media Player can play them without mounting or extracting somewhere first. If it can play without mounting or extracting then sure WMP can play it too with some plugins.


One word for you...VLC.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 22, 2007)

eddie said:
			
		

> That is the problem with you. You don't know anything about FOSS licenses but want to project yourself as an omniscient one. FFDShow breaks numerous software patents and it CANNOT BE INCLUDED! It cannot be. Simple! It is not about money...it is about patents.


And you can buy a license to use the patented thing.



> Yes I can't play my audio & video files in Windows. All of them are in OGG and Theora format. Can I play them in Windows out-of-the-box? If I can then I will accept your comments about codecs. Now, what should a user like me do? Download codecs? But you said it worked out of the box? It is funny that Windows users want Linux to support closed formats while Windows doesn't support completely open formats


Just tell me one thing. How many users out there use Ogg, how many use mp3 & how many use AAC.

1) If you are using mp3, it plays

2) If you are using AAC, chances are u r using iPod & iTunes so it plays

3) If you are using OGG, which is not a very popular format out there resulting in low acceptance then you also know how to search on google for FFDShow for Windows.



> Trillian paid Yahoo! some fees? My google search brings NOTHING. Can you prove it or is it another one of your lies?
> *www.google.co.in/search?q=trillian+paid+yahoo


Oh, so Trillian didn't paid Yahoo any fees, WOW, then how does Yahoo webcam & voice chat works in it . Hey, I am an average Joe, it works...gr8. Who cares for licensing fees etc. 

All I am saying is that if trilian can support it in Trillian free then so can GAIM.


> Are you the same user who was aggressively defending Graphics drivers for Windows vista being "work in progress"?


So, does graphics card driver constitutes 95% of the software market out thre? Guess what, XPDM works fine in Vista too...but Linux kernel 2.0 drive doesn't work in Linux kernel 2.6



> Talks the guy who uses an OS that couldn't even get copy-paste working properly.


Are you confusing me with Arya?



> That developers don't have time to include it in their tree. As simple as that.


HA HA HAHAAHHAAHAHAA, Dude this is 2007 & you are saying developers don't find it important enough to provide visual communication function in Pidgin...r u high on pot today.?



> Anyways, here is one article from 2004...just to prove that vector graphics is being used for UI development in GNOME for that many years
> *times.usefulinc.com/2004/03/03-gnomeui


i advice you to read that article again & try to find out how easy/tough it is to make XAML apps compared to Glade.  would be an eye opener for you. If GNOME is using it, then why don't I see it in current GNOME version?

Something which i would like to Quote from the article u gave.



> XUL is the user interface language used in the Mozilla project.  There are other implementations, but Mozilla is the only realistic game in town. XUL was around doing what XAML does before XAML ever existed.  So why the heck aren't we using it?  Problems include
> 
> XUL has a steep learning curve.  Docs have been slow to come, especially   at the beginning.
> Dealing with Mozilla is painful.  Very painful.  Experience with embedding   Mozilla in programs like Epiphany shows it to be a moving target, and it's   difficult to get bugs fixed back in the core.   Up until now the Mozilla   project had very little resource devoted to embedding uses.
> Mozilla XUL is not native UI.  This is the big stinker with cross platform   UI.  It just won't look as nice or interoperate as well as programs written   in the native UI toolkit.



OMG.. What the hell....how can it be tough,. it doesn't work properly & is hard to make apps in it. Damn you MS for releasing XAML & WPF which makes it really simple for developers to make UI.



> This is more of a grab-bag solution for now.  Various projects have used and are using HTML for rapid UI development.  The Evolution mail reader is the most prominent among these.  SVG is starting to be deployed well on the GNOME desktop.
> *These solutions have the big problem however that they totally miss the native look and feel.*  Microsoft themselves went down the HTML-as-UI route and I think proved its difficulties.  Neither do the current HTML and SVG libraries have any scripting support.  So we're really just limited to document-like display. Also, all of the GtkHTML libraries are rather crusty, especially compared to things like Mozilla.





> I believe the GNOME project and the open source desktop community at large can make a response to Microsoft.  B*ut we need to recognise a key economic constraint for would-be adopters.  This constraint is developer time.  Microsoft licensing and support is cheap compared to the time spent in creating applications*.  To get the cost of Linux desktop deployment down, we need to drive down the cost of application development.


----------



## Desi-Tek.com (Jun 22, 2007)

does vlc support iso image on windows too?
@gx_saurav if i am right than lotus notes (Domino) is a email server and it support linux and lotus notes is more popular than server exchange.
list of linux based open source email server 
(Postfix, Procmail, Fetchmail, SpamBayes, Courier-imap, Mutt, SquirrelMail)


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## gxsaurav (Jun 22, 2007)

> @gx_saurav if i am right than lotus notes (Domino) is a email server and it support linux and lotus notes is more popular than server exchange.



Lotus notes is also paid & whether a company uses Lotes Notes or Exchange server depends on there requirement.



> list of linux based open source email server
> (Postfix, Procmail, Fetchmail, SpamBayes, Courier-imap, Mutt, SquirrelMail)



Yup, there are alternatives just like Pidgin is Alternative to Trillian on Windows. *But how good is the alternative?*


----------



## eddie (Jun 22, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> And you can buy a license to use the patented thing.


...and FFDShow is not that thing. It simply breaks too many patents to be included.





> Just tell me one thing. How many users out there use Ogg, how many use mp3 & how many use AAC.


When I want to use an OS...do I want to run a survey around the world or do I want to listen to my music? Windows does not play my audio and video files, out of the box, even though Microsoft won't need to pay even a dime to include the support. Do you call that "out of the box" experience? Puhlease! 





> So, does graphics card driver constitutes 95% of the software market out thre?


The point is that there are work in progress stuff that needs to be included in main stream.





> Are you confusing me with Arya?


No...I confused Vista's shortcoming. Change copy-paste to deletion of files. Even simpler process 


> HA HA HAHAAHHAAHAHAA, Dude this is 2007 & you are saying developers don't find it important enough to provide visual communication function in Pidgin...r u high on pot today.?


HA HA HA HA HA HA. Dude they are working for free and are not your slaves. They will work as, when and how they want to. If you want something so badly...code! Are you high on pot today?





> i advice you to read that article again & try to find out how easy/tough it is to make XAML apps compared to Glade.  would be an eye opener for you. If GNOME is using it, then why don't I see it in current GNOME version?


The point of the article was to make you understand that vector graphics is being used in GNOME for UI development since 2004 but clearly you are too stupid to understand the same. Also, who says that you don't see it in GNOME? Go and use it you moron...you will see it. Most of the graphics uses SVG!!!





> ...which makes it really simple for developers to make UI.


 Your stupidity fails me. When a thread was talking about users using Vector graphics in UI...you start tooting your horn about developers? Tch tch...

*BTW...I am just guessing that you won't be talking about all the other points like Superkarmaba ... RIAA ... out of the box experience ... me saying microsoft is evil and mandriva's advertisements now?*


----------



## Desi-Tek.com (Jun 22, 2007)

all the popular free email service providers including rediff mail, yahoo, gmail, aol r using opensource mail server on linux


----------



## praka123 (Jun 22, 2007)

^^How  ! they cant do that OMG My dear window$  
                                                                 /sarcasm


----------



## mediator (Jun 22, 2007)

> If you know this is part of business then shut up & stop calling MS evil. Instead let users know if Linux can make there life easier.


 Why r u getting aggravated? Its that business spreading FUDs that hurts the entire FOSS community and if u can't swallow their replies and reactions then please "shut up & stop poncing around"!



> Like I said, Microsoft is not even allowed to integrate features in there own OS. I hope you know about the Real Player lawsuit & the recent Google Lawsuit. If they ditch DRM in Vista,


 Like u "dont care" why Ubuntu and others, who respect the ideologies of FOSS, don't give out of box experience likewise an average joe or a customer isn't interested if MS was allowed or not!! Have a taste of ur medicine first!



> 1) Most of the consumers will not be able to Play DRM based HD DVDs in there PC & will then blame MS for it.
> 
> 2) Microsoft also works under the regulation of government bodies like RIAA & MPAA & it must comply to the rules imposed by these bodies. DoJ ordered MS to alter the search functionality in Vista & now they are forced to do it.
> 
> 3) If they have no support for DRM in Vista, then they loose a big market of offline users who are not geeks like we are & don't know how to install that crack to play Batman Begins HD.


 U want an average joe to know all such things? They r customers not analaysts!





> I have access to internet & knowledge base. Does my Mom have access? no. Why don't we see the ADs of Mandrive in Times of India or Mint Linux. Hell, why don't we see ADs of Mandrive in digit magazine.


 What has ADs to do with clarifying our matters here unless it has to do something with FUDS? I already said MS is a leader becoz of its business and that doesn't necessarily means superior products.



> Eddie just mentioned that Beryl is a work in progress. Well, when the work is done & it works properly without crashing then let me know. .


 We'll he just told the fact, but we often heard win-fanboys telling how XP or even 98 "never" got BSODs!! Even Billgates got a BSOD in his presentation. Do u think he got installed pirated windows OS or non-genuine drivers?

And about the work, yea it rarely crashed on my system even when it was released newly. I guess I was the lucky one then!! Beryl with Gnome works like a charm. I dont know about KDE coz I dont use KDE!!




> About looking good then Mac OS X looks the most beautiful but does nothing


 Thats something maccies have to say more about!



> ISO files are CD Images, you tell me whether any OSS Media Player can play them without mounting or extracting somewhere first. If it can play without mounting or extracting then sure WMP can play it too with some plugins.


 Ur inexperience! It seems u r deliberately bringing the concepts of "mounting" and "extraction". Its common for apps to extract the contents into the memory. Can WMP open iso files and play them just like playing another mp3 or wma file? And do name the plugins coz I want them!



> Despite of DRM, why do u think iTunes & iPod became success, just cos despite of DRM people were able to get there favorite songs at $1 only instead of buying a whole CD for $12. DRM is bad but for many users out there they don't care cos all they have is one DAP like iPod & it works for them


 U think the same thing will happen everywhere then?

I dont care about Ipod, its the freedom that matters to me and I guess the modern mobile phones r nicely doing the stuff. U'll find more people carrying mobiles and listening to music on it than using IPOD. Thats the reality atleast in Delhi. "Wow" is the word I also used when a friend of mine showed me IPOD the first time coz thats what was fed into my mind that IPOD is great, but in actual I never gave it a second thought.




> Oh, so Trillian didn't paid Yahoo any fees, WOW, then how does Yahoo webcam & voice chat works in it . Hey, I am an average Joe, it works...gr8. Who cares for licensing fees etc.
> All I am saying is that if trilian can support it in Trillian free then so can GAIM.


 Who cares if MS will get sued or not for for providing MS-Office, drivers, photoshop,yahoo messenger, Opera, winzip etc etc and support for all the codecs in the software world "out of box".

I dunno why r u so after GAIM, when u have been told about GYach.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 22, 2007)

eddie said:
			
		

> ...and FFDShow is not that thing. It simply breaks too many patents to be included.


Oh...that makes me wonder why it still exists.? Shouldn't FFDSow be sued then? Oh wait, FFDShow's foundation is the open source FFMpeg specification which is based on the Mojo codebase.



> When I want to use an OS...do I want to run a survey around the world or do I want to listen to my music? Windows does not play my audio and video files, out of the box, even though Microsoft won't need to pay even a dime to include the support. Do you call that "out of the box" experience?


*Well in this case the problem is centered to you only. Deal with it eddie.* 99% users out there don't use OGG so why should MS support something they have not made in Windows? Do u think support means just including the codec in Windows. Dude it is not made by MS if a user has a problem with OGG playback in Windows do u think MS will be able to help them?

In Windows if there is a problem I simply search on google or ask some friend. If I have a problem on Linux I m told to RTFM.



> HA HA HA HA HA HA. Dude they are working for free and are not your slaves. They will work as, when and how they want to. If you want something so badly...code! Are you high on pot today?


I am ready to pay $10 for Pidgin if they charge me, with support for such features in Linux. Hey why should I code for it in Pidgin when I can simply use Free Yahoo Messenger in Windows. . I know Pidgin & I know it is free, u know this....now go & tell this to John Doe.



> Puhlease! The point is that there are work in progress stuff that needs to be included in main stream.


Then do so & when it is complete, come back here & talk.



> The point of the article was to make you understand that vector graphics is being used in GNOME for UI development since 2004 b


Really, where? Your own quoted article showed that making Glade or XUL apps isn't that easy compared to XAML due to which most developers are shy to use it.



> all the popular free email service providers including rediff mail, yahoo, gmail, aol r using opensource mail server on linux


How do you know what server they are using ;-? did the came to u & told u this?



> U want an average joe to know all such things? They r customers not analaysts!



Eggjactly, & thats why Vista will suit there needs better cos it can play HD DVD etc while Linux cannot.


> Ur inexperience! It seems u r deliberately bringing the concepts of "mounting" and "extraction". *Its common for apps to extract the contents into the memory.* Can WMP open iso files and play them just like playing another mp3 or wma file? And do name the plugins coz I want them!



You mean Some Linux media player extracts a 700 MB Dat file from the ISO to RAM. hELP ME HERE.



> I dont care about Ipod, its the freedom that matters to me and I guess the modern mobile phones r nicely doing the stuff. U'll find more people carrying mobiles and listening to music on it than using IPOD. Thats the reality atleast in Delhi. "Wow" is the word I also used when a friend of mine showed me IPOD the first time coz thats what was fed into my mind that IPOD is great, but in actual I never gave it a second thought.



Centered to u only.


> Who cares if MS will get sued or not for for providing MS-Office, drivers, photoshop,yahoo messenger, Opera, winzip etc etc and support for all the codecs in the software world "out of box".



Even I don't care, but MS has to run a bussiness & they have to comply by the rules imposed by the goverment bodies.


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## praka123 (Jun 22, 2007)

gxsourav said:
			
		

> I am ready to pay $10 for Pidgin if they charge me, with support for such features in Linux. Hey why should I code for it in Pidgin when I can simply use Free Yahoo Messenger in Windows. . I know Pidgin & I know it is free, u know this....now go & tell this to John Doe.


This is a basic ideology problem.Hope u can understand below lines:



> *Problem #3: Culture shock*
> 
> *Subproblem #3a: There is a culture*
> 
> ...


 *linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm


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## gxsaurav (Jun 22, 2007)

:Yawn: Prakash & his Long ads who has time to read all.


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## mediator (Jun 22, 2007)

> In Windows if there is a problem I simply search on google or ask some friend. If I have a problem on Linux I m told to RTFM


On windows, I went to MS sites which culdn't solve 90% of my problems and then asked if the solution was satisfactory and my friends are "average joes"!!



> I am ready to pay $10 for Pidgin if they charge me, with support for such features in Linux. Hey why should I code for it in Pidgin when I can simply use Free Yahoo Messenger in Windows. . I know Pidgin & I know it is free, u know this....now go & tell this to John Doe.


U keep analysing MS, but have u ever researched why GAIM was even renamed to pidgin?


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## eddie (Jun 22, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Oh...that makes me wonder why it still exists.? Shouldn't FFDSow be sued then? Oh wait, FFDShow's foundation is the open source FFMpeg specification which is based on the Mojo codebase.


Do you think every patent or copyright infringing thing on internet gets sued?





> *Well in this case the problem is centered to you only. Deal with it eddie.* 99% users out there don't use OGG so *why should MS support something they have not made in Windows*? Do u think support means just including the codec in Windows. Dude it is not made by MS if a user has a problem with OGG playback in Windows do u think MS will be able to help them?


Then why should Linux distros support MP3? You were talking about out of the box experience and my music files don't play. I need to whine...just like you guys do. BTW...I gave you loads of other examples as well...time for Windows to "improve" out of the box experience?





> I am ready to pay $10 for Pidgin if they charge me, with support for such features in Linux.


Go and use GyachI and donate them 10 dollars.





> Then do so & when it is complete, come back here & talk.


Time for you to look at Vista's graphics support and file deletions? 


> Really, where?


Do you wear glasses? It clearly mention ------- *SVG is starting to be deployed well on the GNOME desktop.*...and this was in 2004. Use GNOME now and you'll know.





> How do you know what server they are using ;-? did the came to u & told u this?


 Rediff
*toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=*www.rediff.com
Yahoo!
*toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=www.yahoo.com
Gmail
*toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=www.gmail.com


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## mediator (Jun 22, 2007)

> Eggjactly, & thats why Vista will suit there needs better cos it can play HD DVD etc while Linux
> 
> cannot.


 Eggjactly, thats how MS loots them coz they r just customers and not analysts!



> You mean Some Linux media player extracts a 700 MB Dat file from the ISO to RAM. hELP ME HERE.


 Did u ever passed in ur aptitude exams? When did I say something heinous like that 700MB? Please don't twist the statements according to ur thinking level and to ur likings! BTW u still didn't answer me! Can WMP open iso files and play them just like playing another mp3 or wma file?



> Even I don't care, but MS has to run a bussiness & they have to comply by the rules imposed by the goverment bodies.


 Point is again who cares and the poor average joe has to spend all day long to install everything on windows i.e drivers, winzip, anti-virus, anti-spyware, firewall, MS-office, yahoo mesenger and various other things to make windows actually usable, opening and putting drivers and softwares CD one by one leaving him totally exhausted. And do u think all these softwares are genuine? Add the extra time that is spent to get them cracked before using them!!

Even a geek wud be afraid of the 1000 rounds of "next next next", "I accept stupid agreement", "restart", open/close cd tray and various rounds of hangups!! And not to mention that u'll have to apply that "file deletion" update everytime if u reinstall VISTA! What a joke!


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## kumarmohit (Jun 22, 2007)

So Hostilities have commenced and are in full swing


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## gxsaurav (Jun 22, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> Did u ever passed in ur aptitude exams? When did I say something heinous like that 700MB? Please don't twist the statements according to ur thinking level and to ur likings! BTW u still didn't answer me! Can WMP open iso files and play them just like playing another mp3 or wma file?


I guess you forgot to read the line I posted above



			
				me said:
			
		

> *ISO files are CD Images, you tell me whether any OSS Media Player can play them without mounting or extracting somewhere first.* If it can play without mounting or extracting then sure WMP can play it too with some plugins.


Then you said it extracts to RAM. Suppose I have a 700 MB VCD ISO having one AVSEQ01.DAT file, then according to your theory, Linux media player will extract 700 MB TO RAM & then play . Tell me if any media player on Linux including VLC can play it without mounting first.



> Point is again who cares and the poor average joe has to spend all day long to install everything on windows i.e drivers, winzip, anti-virus, anti-spyware, firewall, MS-office, yahoo mesenger and various other things to make windows actually usable, opening and putting drivers and softwares CD one by one leaving him totally exhausted. And do u think all these softwares are genuine? Add the extra time that is spent to get them cracked before using them!!


There are 2 kind of users out there

1) Average Joe who usually buy HP or Dell, they don't need to think about anything. Everything is already installed. They can simply call the service guy & he will do it for them

2) Geeks like us who know what we are doing & just like you linux users don't mind installing new version every week, we Windows users also don't mind installing Windows Vista once, configure it & make a disk image. Then forget about it (My case, Vista was installed in December 2006)



> And not to mention that u'll have to apply that "file deletion" update every time if u reinstall VISTA! What a joke!



And not to mention I have to run synaptic to install packages out there every week or every time I reinstall Linux, despite of having all files in cache, just cos synaptic found a new v X.X.X.1 update.

I am sorry, unless this thread is moved to Fight Club, I won't post anymore here.

Linux can try all it can to counter attack MS, they will fail. The only way is to work together & use some of Microsoft's technologies in Linux.


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## vish786 (Jun 22, 2007)

what a blunder, such an disgusting discussion.... leading in no proper direction. 

its well said Adha pani ka ghada jyada awaaz karta hai(empty vessels make more noise)


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## eddie (Jun 22, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Tell me if any media player on Linux including VLC can play it without mounting first.


Yes yes yes! How many times do we have to tell you this? *VLC plays ISO files like normal media files*. Now you understand???





> There are 2 kind of users out there
> 
> 1) Average Joe who usually buy HP or Dell, they don't need to think about anything. Everything is already installed. They can simply call the service guy & he will do it for them


Bull!!! Do you think all the assembled PC owners are geeks? BS!!! Don't you ever feel ashamed while lying so blatantly? Oh I forgot...your are gx_saurav...you were never ashamed of lying 


> And not to mention I have to run synaptic to install packages out there every week or every time I reinstall Linux, despite of having all files in cache, just cos synaptic found a new v X.X.X.1 update.


What? You are never forced to update. If you want to update...do it...if you don't want to do an update...don't do it. It will still not affect your file deletions 


> I am sorry, unless this thread is moved to Fight Club, I won't post anymore here.


As usual...you have been completely pwned...left with no points whatsoever to put on the table and then you leave like a sore loser. Typical GX.





> Linux can try all it can to counter attack MS, they will fail. The only way is to work together & use some of Microsoft's technologies in Linux.


Your master Microsoft doesn't think so. If it is all being done for Linux's betterment then why do we see Microsoft knocking every distro's door rather than the exact opposite?


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## Desi-Tek.com (Jun 22, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> I guess you forgot to read the line I posted above
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## gxsaurav (Jun 22, 2007)

Desi-Tek.com said:
			
		

> i guess not in ram but in temp folder!



Nope, according to meditator it extracts in RAM 

If it extracts in temp folder then it is equal to Windows method of first mounting & then playing or just opening the ISO file with WinRAR & extracting.


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## eddie (Jun 23, 2007)

Desi-Tek.com said:
			
		

> i guess not in ram but in temp folder!


 No it does not extract the ISO anywhere. It plays just like you would play an AVI/MP4 or any other format video file. Straight forward play back...no extraction...


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## mediator (Jun 24, 2007)

gx said:
			
		

> Then you said it extracts to RAM. Suppose I have a 700 MB VCD ISO having one AVSEQ01.DAT file, *then according to your theory, Linux media player will extract 700 MB TO RAM & then play* . Tell me if any media player on Linux including VLC can play it without mounting first.


 When did I put forward such a theory?  Please quote it!! 
Ofcors mounting is done automatically, but I guess u r feeling shy to answer my one simple question. Can WMP play media ISO files simply like any other mp3 or wma file? I need it.



> There are 2 kind of users out there
> 
> 1) Average Joe who usually buy HP or Dell, they don't need to think about anything. Everything is already installed. They can simply call the service guy & he will do it for them
> 
> 2) Geeks like us who know what we are doing & just like you linux users don't mind installing new version every week, we Windows users also don't mind installing Windows Vista once, configure it & make a disk image. Then forget about it (My case, Vista was installed in December 2006)


 Oh, so now u r trying to classify it? Do u have any idea of how many different types of users are there? Its not just end-users or admins!! Do read some book on software engineering.

Likewise, installation isn't a part of end-users. Its a part of system admin. In that light even the softwares that r installed via the net are irrelevant to the work of end-users!! Then for an end-user u have everything installed and wine and other emulators setup to have windows softwares tooo. How the heck is Linux difficult for even the extremely brainless end-users then?

Anyways its nice to see that u r talking of more than average joe now!



> *And not to mention I have to run synaptic to install packages out there every week or every time I reinstall Linux, despite of having all files in cache, just cos synaptic found a new v X.X.X.1 update.*
> 
> I am sorry, unless this thread is moved to Fight Club, I won't post anymore here.
> 
> Linux can try all it can to counter attack MS, they will fail. The only way is to work together & use some of Microsoft's technologies in Linux.


 Why do u always forget about the Linux distros like Linux mint, suse enterpise etc that give u out of box experience that windows cannot?

BTW, I have told many times that I'm still on FC5 without any updates and a few software installations only enjoying everything I need! Even without any "extra" installations or updates my FC box was pretty usable with office loaded, gaim and gimp to satisfy......an end-user!!



			
				gx said:
			
		

> Nope, according to meditator it extracts in RAM


 Don't u know how the media player works? When did i say it extracts the "whole thing" into the RAM? Even a kid has the "common sense" to understand that a RAM of 256 MB cannot accomodate a 700 MB file. I'm really having doubts on ur comprehension skills now! Do I have to tell a geek like u even the basics i.e how an OS works? Do u really "feel" qualified to talk on the matters of operating systems?


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## gxsaurav (Jun 24, 2007)

^^^ according to what you said "it extracts to RAM" What else did u mean?

Windows Media Player cannot do that, because Windows doesn't allow such mounting of ISO files without user permission & interaction. You can always mount the ISO manually using either Daemon Tools or Nero Image Drive or Windows Virtual CD powertoy


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## mediator (Jun 24, 2007)

> according to what you said "it extracts to RAM" What else did u mean?


 Ask any software engineer what "content extraction into the RAM" means! What ur "common sense" says? "Lols", we already witnessed how good ur "common sense" is!



> Windows Media Player cannot do that, *because* Windows doesn't allow such mounting of ISO files without user permission & interaction. You can always mount the ISO manually using either Daemon Tools or Nero Image Drive or Windows Virtual CD powertoy


 So much hardwork to be done by an "end-user"?  So much for the "ease of use"!
BTW, u r already enlightening us that an end-user isn't interested in the reasons but the experience! So please refrain from posting the "because" of the statements!!


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## gxsaurav (Jun 24, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> So much hardwork to be done by an "end-user"?  So much for the "ease of use"!
> BTW, u r already enlightening us that an end-user isn't interested in the reasons but the experience! So please refrain from posting the "because" of the statements!!


Lets talk about End User.

What is the distribution format for VCDs out there? A Compact Disk having dat files, which once inserted in the CD Drive plays fine in WMP.

A consumare wants to copy the video. He either copies the AVSEQ01.dat file to his HD & plays the dat file in WMP or He copied all the folders of the VCD to his computer & then plays.

If a user knows how to use nero to make an NRG of a VCD then he also knows how to mount it. Its obvious. Now if you say "U don't need to know how to mount, just to make a NRG from Nero." Then u r certified idiot.

What is the distribution format of DVDs out there? a DVD disk containing a DVD which plays in DVD player software.

A consumar wants to copy DVD to his HD.

1) It is illegal. Microsoft doesn't allows or encourages Piracy in Windows. If they do they will be sued.

2) The user rips it. Suppose he rips it using DivX convertar then he gets a AVI File which plays fine.

3) If he has enough knowledge to make a NRG or ISO then he also knows how to mount it. Its obvious.

What is format of Piracy on Internet? avi or bin or cue or ISO files. Sorry, Microsoft won't allow or encourage u to downloaded pirated content & play them as such in WMP.

Obviously, I have wasted my time giving reason why can't WMP play ISO directly because like all Lingeeks & Macboys you will over look this.

Tell me, where from do u get movies in ISO format.


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## iMav (Jun 24, 2007)

the last thing any linux user should be talking about is end user and ease of use ...


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 24, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> the last thing any linux user should be talking about is end user and ease of use ...


he he


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## praka123 (Jun 24, 2007)

so what about Ubuntu,Suse,PClinux OS,fedora doing?


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## gxsaurav (Jun 24, 2007)

^^^ they are just playground for geeks.


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## praka123 (Jun 24, 2007)

^^ Vista  is a playground for Viruses,Intruders,Spywares,Trojans and Adwares right?
jal raha hei koi FOSS ke jeet main


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 24, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> jal raha hei koi FOSS ke jeet main


eh , a user of an OS with less than 1% market share saying this


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## gxsaurav (Jun 24, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> ^^ Vista  is a playground for Viruses,Intruders,Spywares,Trojans and Adwares right?



What else can I call ignorence 

1) 6 months & 0 virus affecting Vista

2) 0 spywares out there affecting the default installation of Vista if IE is used.

3) No ActiveX bugs in IE 7 so far in Vista.



> jal raha hei koi FOSS ke jeet main



Jeet?  where, Hey prakash, which is the most used Operating system out there? Which Company is making the maximum ammount of money out there? Which OS holds the maximum number of native 3rd party applications out there? Which OS works with all the computer hardware out there? Which OS is the de-facto standerd for gaming? Which OS is used the most as the Media Server out there?

Hint : You hate the company for a reason which is lame. Unless you are terrorist.


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## mediator (Jun 24, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Lets talk about End User.
> 
> What is the distribution format for VCDs out there? A Compact Disk having dat files, which once inserted in the CD Drive plays fine in WMP.
> 
> ...


"Dood", like I said we r not interested in ur "becoz"!! Is it hard having a taste of ur own medicine? Tastes sour? 

In every little speech of urs, u have started giving reasons now. Then why do u whine when distros like Ubuntu which don't have codecs fail to give out of box experience? There is also a "becoz" attached to it. I hope u'll improve from now on.



> A consumar wants to copy DVD to his HD.
> 
> 1) It is illegal. Microsoft doesn't allows or encourages Piracy in Windows. If they do they will be sued.
> 
> ...


 1.On one hand u talk about DRM in INDIA and then u talked about illegality? Please don't use INDIA or USA according to ur convenience. India is a leader in softwares and u think DRM isn't known? Have u ever conducted  a research and found how many knew of DRM? And if India can be leader in software piracy and the common user can "pirate windows" then he can copy DVDs to their hardisk toooo. 

The most common example in Delhi is when people "rent" movie DVDs which has "chapters" and not AVSEQ.DAT. In such case Delhites atleast in my area and my friends copy the DVDs and create ISOs.

2. Ripping is done by those who have ample time. "Convenience" is the key here and we do not want the ISOs for an indefinite period unless someone wants to open a DVD shop of his own!

3. U were talking about the end users. Are u sure an end user has enough knowledge to use Nero etc? How many MOMs and Dads in ur locality even know about disk defragement or creating a data disk? Face the reality!!



> What is format of Piracy on Internet? avi or bin or cue or ISO files. Sorry, Microsoft won't allow or encourage u to downloaded pirated content & play them as such in WMP.
> 
> Obviously, I have wasted my time giving reason why can't WMP play ISO directly because like all Lingeeks & Macboys you will over look this.
> 
> Tell me, where from do u get movies in ISO format.


 Obviously linux users have wasted their time enlightening the win-fanboys about why some Linux don't give u "out of box" experience with codecs, but u fail to over look at that very simple point! But all that the win-fanboys reply is   "yawn...@user and his long posts...no time to read it"    acknowledging others that they r "certified idots" and full fledged trolls who don't have "common sense" to understand the meaning of the posts of Linux users!!


Neways, It was just a point to make win-fanboys see some truth that holds true for even windows. So I request you and all the win-fanboys not to whine for Ubuntu about the "out of box" thingy "OR" u can use the distros which already give u the "out of box experience"!!

@GX : Best of luck for ur exams!


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## eddie (Jun 24, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> I hope u'll improve from now on.


 You are hoping against hope.


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 24, 2007)

eddie said:
			
		

> You are hoping against hope.


El Mooooo , we are human beings here and are on friendly terms for a healthy discussion .

So please keep your flames out


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## eddie (Jun 24, 2007)

Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> El Mooooo , we are human beings here and are on friendly terms for a healthy discussion .


 LOL! Healthy discussions with liars?


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## gxsaurav (Jun 24, 2007)

eddie said:
			
		

> LOL! Healthy discussions with liars?



Lolz...healthy discussion with idiots who don't even want to listen or try to understand what the other one is saying.


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## eddie (Jun 24, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Lolz...healthy discussion with idiots who don't even want to listen or try to understand what the other one is saying.


 They will listen if what is being said is true! Not the utter bull like Adobe uses Qt for making Photoshop GUI


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## mail2and (Jun 25, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Which OS works with all the computer hardware out there?



Linux?


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## gxsaurav (Jun 25, 2007)

^^^^ Computer hardware in the current market = PC, Mac, X86 Workstations. Windows works on all.

Server are not consumer grade computers

Clusters are also not consumer grade computers.

I hope u know what consumer level computer (me & u) & server level computer (Deep) means. Tell me, who buys server for home use?


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 25, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> ^^^^ Computer hardware in the current market = PC, Mac, X86 Workstations. Windows works on all.
> 
> Server are not consumer grade computers
> 
> ...


Also , now for servers too Microsoft has Copute Cluster Server 2003 .

And , for ultra high-end clusters and servers , Solaris is the preferred OS


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## mail2and (Jun 25, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> ^^^^ Computer hardware in the current market = PC, Mac, X86 Workstations. Windows works on all.
> 
> Server are not consumer grade computers
> 
> ...



PPC hadware, though limited in availability and use, still constitutes the term _computer hardware_. So, only Linux can run on all _possible_ computer hardware available for money to buy.

Even by your own definition of _computer hardware_, Linux still runs on all such hardware. It also runs on Playstation 3, which is a gaming system.

Anyways, I'd rather not spend my time on _defining_ what computer hardware means, especially since I'm not _gaining_ anything, either monetarily or intellectually, through such a _discussion_. 

Oh, and by the way, I am _not_ a computer, either _consumer level_ or otherwise.


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## gxsaurav (Jun 25, 2007)

mail2and said:
			
		

> PPC hadware, though limited in availability and use, still constitutes the term _computer hardware_. So, only Linux can run on all _possible_ computer hardware available for money to buy.


PPC hardware is available only for servers. We are not talking about servers in this thread.

PPC hardware is also available in old Apple computer but is discontinued. We are talking about what is available today.



> It also runs on Playstation 3, which is a gaming system.


Playstation is not a computer. If Microsoft modifies & compile Windows, then even Windows can run on PS3. By this logic we should assume that XBOX 360 is running Windows Vista.

Apple challenged the Windows community to run Windows XP (BIOS) on Mactel (EFI). It was ported in less then 1 month. Boot Camp was released cos now the method was out there for anyone to run Windows on Mac so why should Apple leave a USP to sale Apple hardware.

Wasn't it Apple who used to make fun of PCs for running Windows?


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## mail2and (Jun 25, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> PPC hardware is available only for servers. We are not talking about servers in this thread.





			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Which OS works with all the computer hardware out there?



I did not know that server hardware did not constitute computer hardware. I think I need to improve my knowledge of computers. 

Besides, non-Mac PPC hardware is available for _home_ computer users, too.





> Playstation is not a computer. If Microsoft modifies & compile Windows, then even Windows can run on PS3. By this logic we should assume that XBOX 360 is running Windows Vista.



I am not assuming anything. I _merely_ appraised you of the fact that a linux distribution runs on a gaming system. I clearly pointed this out in the line- _"It also runs on Playstation 3, which is a gaming system"_. Maybe, I should _change_ the _way_ I write to accommodate the linguistically and analytically, disadvantaged.



> Apple challenged the Windows community to run Windows XP (BIOS) on Mactel (EFI). It was ported in less then 1 month. Boot Camp was released cos now the method was out there for anyone to run Windows on Mac so why should Apple leave a USP to sale Apple hardware.
> 
> Wasn't it Apple who used to make fun of PCs for running Windows?



Thank you for the information. I am _sincerely_ grateful to you for giving me this _vital_ piece of information, without which, I would have remained misinformed. forever. 

However, I _do not_ understand the connection between a _discussion_ on computer hardware and an _act_ of a computer company to _enhance_ the sale of its products. Maybe, I should develop my analytical skills _further_ to carry out a meaningful _discussion_ on this bulletin board.


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## gxsaurav (Jun 25, 2007)

^^^ I think you really need to. You are so far unable to interpret what we are discussing in this thread. Whether Server hardware & OS or Consumer hardware & OS.


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