# BJP vs Congress !!



## esumitkumar (Oct 29, 2008)

OK guys time to fight ..Whats your take ? Our country is going to civil unrest ..(bomb blasts everywhere, marathi regionalism ..Raj spilling poison,Marathis killing UPites and Biharis etc etc) As Alexander said in the other thread, we should go and vote in the next LS elections the best candidate..Now which party will develop our nation more ? 

BJP or Congress ? 

My take is BJP  ..They are not 100% good but far far better than Congress...
We can see in their regime , even they were not single largest party they had done what Congress hadnt done in 45 years....Lets see their postives and negatives (Source : Wiki): 

*POSITIVES *:

1. The new Government carried out an electoral promise with the 5 nuclear tests at Pokhran, in Rajasthan in 1998, which gave India a weaponised nuclear capacity. 

2. Opening the skies to commercial airlines

3. The government especially catered to the rising information technology industry

4. lowered taxes for middle-class Indians and businesses

5. Vajpayee took a personal interest in the Golden Quadrilateral project, a road system which aimed at linking the four corners of the nation with heavy, industrial roads --> MORE INFRASTRUCTURE, MORE JOBS better INDIA 

6. They were also thinking of linking rivers but by the time they act, govt was OUT 


*NEGATIVES :*

1. Totally flopped on Kargil (524 Indian soldiers died )

2. KANDHAR HIJACK CASE ---> External Affairs Minister, Jaswant Singh, personally escorted three terrorists to Kandahar in return for the hostages on board a hijacked aircraft. This was shown on discovery full documentary that if Vajapyee had sent Amritsar Police to aircraft, these three terrorist would still be in Indian Jail 

3. Unable to prevent or abort Akshardham, Raghunath Mandir, the Parliament and Red Fort attacks. Afzal Guru, convicted in the Parliament House attack case, had been arrested and let off two months before the incident took place

4. Tehelka sting operation caught the BJP president, Bangaru Laxman, accepting Rs 1 lakh in cash from journalists pretending to be defence dealers 



Some of the professed goals of the BJP are:
*The Repeal of Article 370 of the Constitution*, which prevents non-Kashmiris, including Hindus who have fled the area due to increasing terrorism, from owning property in the state of Jammu and Kashmir. 
*The Promulgation of a Uniform Common Civil Code*, which create only one personal and civil law code for Hindus, Muslims and Christians, who enjoy the privilege of having law codes tailored to their religious culture over personal and family matters. In the minds of BJP supporters, this system creates a sense of division in the country between religious communities.
*A Ban on Cow Slaughter*, to honor the Hindu tradition of deeming cows and most cattle as sacred, and prohibiting the consumption of beef and pork.
*The Ban on Forcible Religious Conversions*
*The Construction of the Ram Janmabhoomi temple in Ayodhya*.
*To achieve the full territorial and political integration of Jammu and Kashmir with India*. Presently over 40% of the territory is under the control of Pakistan and China.
UNIFORM CIVIL CODE I fully agree ..Why there should be any discrimination between Indians ? 

BJP has enacted POTA----> terrorism major control 
Golden Quadrilateral, Nuclear test etc etc..These can only really develop our nation...Congress has removed it and now u can see whats happening in our country..BLASTS everywhere ...

We can see BJP ruled states like Gujarat, HP etc are doing much more good than Congress rules states...

SO IMO BJP is far far better than Congress at any time.. What do u guys say ?


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## swatkat (Oct 29, 2008)

> UNIFORM CIVIL CODE I fully agree ..Why there should be any discrimination between Indians ?
> 
> BJP has enacted POTA----> terrorism major control
> Golden Quadrilateral, Nuclear test etc etc..These can only really develop our nation...Congress has removed it and now u can see whats happening in our country..BLASTS everywhere ...
> ...



+1... Now India is being ruled by a bunch of worthless people... WTF, we are having almost daily dosage of bombs and nobody cares about it... I know that there are corrupt people in both BJP and Cong (as a matter of fact, all parties), but BJP is little better (read cleaner) than others IMO... However for the time being, India needs POTA+Modi to cleanup things....


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## esumitkumar (Oct 29, 2008)

^^Thanks Swatty..ur 100% correct..Lets see when Narendra bhai will become PM
w8ing for other digitians opinions....


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## anispace (Oct 29, 2008)

yah right BJP is good. Have u read the news lately. BJP is directly or indirectly linked with the culprits accused in the Malegoan blasts. The whole Godhra fiasco, Babri Masjid demolition. All BJP.

Even as the opposition, they suck. They vetoed the Nuke deal even though they themselves initiated it. Just for petty politics.

Though the Congress also isnt much better, compared with the BJP they are tolerable.

But I do agree with Narendra Modi being a good chief minister. He is like a CEO who is running Gujarat efficiently even though he again was involved in the whole Godhra disaster.

Frankly all political parties in India are bad... the question is who is less worse compared to the other.


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## swatkat (Oct 29, 2008)

@sumit,
Hahaha.... Okay... But, it all depends on us (voters/citizens) too.... Things will not magically improve when a certain party comes into power... We are too much adjusted to corruption, sh!tty politics etc to such an extent that we think they are a part of the system.... We have to wake up.... I am not saying to go and kill people in Robin Hood style, things can start at grass root level - like, for example, sticking to traffic rule (have you driven in Bangalore )... Ha! This feels like a film story which will flop for sure (Yuva, anyone?)...

@anispace,
I am not interested in starting a flamewar here... But, you may want to check out this... One has to think about/respect the other side of the story as well


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## esumitkumar (Oct 29, 2008)

@ Anispace ..everybody has their opinions thats y I started this thread..Also please vote in polling button....

@swatty..ur rite..that things will not change in one day...like somebody is throwing garbage @ road..if u see..u shud make them understand..that plz throw in dustbin..not road ..but the work of govt is to make sure there is proper garbage collection system and those ppl come on time 

Malegaon blasts --> Just wait for some more time..to see what is the truth ...Its still not very clear

Godhra Fiasco--do u know who incited it first ? I also believe Narendra was wrong..in revenging all that..cuz fight is not a solution..Peace is..but when one side sings Peace Peace and other has already started war..then ????

Babri Masjid -- I really feel this is useless issue..making ram Mandir or Babri Masjid there wouldnt solve the problems of a common man...so better to leave this past

now coming to point ---> Congress govt is so nikammi(ineffecient) govt that blasts had happened in each major city of India and still that MF S Pa*il is saying Please maintain peace  ...

Also whats happening in MH..Raj is roaming here n there like chuttta saaand and inciting ppl..and Vilasrao Deshmukh is doing nothing ... ..Even Sonia and Manmohan are saying "Please ensure safety" and still ppl are killing each other..Had BJP been in centre , they would have been immediately expelled the govt. but Congress will never do that ...

BJP has flaws too but anytime much better than Congress

Thats my Q : Both have -ves...but who is more better than other


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## manishjha18 (Oct 29, 2008)

i am for narendra bhai--he really works


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## krinish (Oct 29, 2008)

A very controversial thread. No BJP, No congress.

BJP - Too agressive
Congress - Too Linient.

Both of them miserable failures.

Any one knows what happened to all the finalists. The last 20 candidates of the Lead India campaign. They were soo promising, but turned out to be nothing. Times of India just stopped after soo much fuss

Cant a corporate house sponsor/support them to form a independent party. If i were a millionaire, i would hire every single one of them, and well you know what im coming too.....


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## mediator (Oct 29, 2008)

Well Mr.Shiv Khera launched his party, the Bhartiya Rashtravadi Samanata Party (BRSP), FYI !!

@esumitkumar : I concur with u. But in the end they all just turn out to be a bunch of hypocrites! Just remove this stewpid sharia'h system as well and tell the apologists to go to Paki if they want it that desperately after all thats why INDIA was divided. Let the uniform civil code & family planning come into existence.


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## esumitkumar (Oct 29, 2008)

Well the need of the nation irrespective of any Indian's religion is :

1. Uniform civil code 
2. Population Control
3. Development in all states not just Delhi,Mumbai,Chennai,Pune,Hyd etc 
4. End of corruption
5. Better roads,highways and no power shortage
6. Stopping illegal immigration of Bangladeshis.

I beleive only BJP can achieve these goals if not all atleast some..

and yes 59 views and only 9 votes..common ppl ..choose ur option if not posting atleast !


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## karnivore (Oct 29, 2008)

Whether we need Uniform Civil Code can be debated. But UCC at this point of time, or in the next 50 years is next to impossible. Also, a lot of people don't seem to realise that UCC would also mean the repeal of HUF Act, Hindu Marriage Act etc. which, a lot of hindu zealots would find unacceptable.

Congress or BJP - all the same. Both suck in their own strange ways. BJP, however, has broken the suck barrier and is heading from super suck to hyper suck. Congress is about to break that barrier.



esumitkumar said:


> 1. Uniform civil code
> 2. Population Control
> 3. Development in all states not just Delhi,Mumbai,Chennai,Pune,Hyd etc
> 4. End of corruption
> ...


1. Not possible.
2. Agreed, but not the Chinese way
3. Agreed
4. Keep dreaming
5. Agreed
6. Keep dreaming

BJP is run by a bunch of nincompoops. And Congress by sycophants.


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## esumitkumar (Oct 29, 2008)

@karnivore ..can u post some facts other than I and anispace had posted that really how BJP sucks ?? and congress is less sucking ?

Also regd UCC, if enacted how it can repeal Hindu Marriage act ?

What kind of country is ours where one Indian can have four wives legally and another Indian on having 2nd wife is jailed legally ??? 

Also these are 2 major political parties of India..No govt is possible without the support of any one of them ! We have only two options in next LS and how can u be so ignorant ? Thats y for ppl like u ..I have posted the third option ..I will sit lame@home..I dont bother WTH is going in my nation as long as I am comfortable ...If u want that plz vote at least that option...

FOR ALL PPL if u want to suggest some other party I can put other parties name too if u want in poll..but PLZ VOTE !!


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## karnivore (Oct 30, 2008)

esumitkumar said:


> @karnivore ..can u post some facts other than I and anispace had posted that really how BJP sucks ?? and congress is less sucking ?
> 
> Also regd UCC, if enacted how it can repeal Hindu Marriage act ?
> 
> ...


Sorry to disappoint you buddy, but I don't sit pretty at home during the poll day. None of the three options u provided suite me in any way. So no vote.

As with repeal of Hindu Marriage Act. Can you tell me why should there be a Hindu Marriage Act, when the entire Civil Code is to be Uniform. And please provide some proof, any proof, from a reliable source, not some random hindu propaganda site, that people do have "four wives legally". Dig the census report 2001, and you might just be a little surprised. 

To determine, what constitutes "suck", we have to have a debate. Nevertheless some sucks are, pushing pseudo-science as mainstream science, rewriting history, communal overtures, using public money for political campaign (Shining India), disastrous plan of unification of rivers etc. The only good thing that came out of that 6 years of rule, was the road building project.


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## Anorion (Oct 30, 2008)

I can see by the poll results that major anti-incubancy is happening here. The Congress are a bunch of thieves, and the BJP are a bunch of clowns. Who do I pick? Hmmm... Think the BJP is going totally wrong on issues like Cow Slaughter and Ayodhya, this is just pleasing to a particular religion, and I believe that such a line should not be taken when it comes to national politics. On the other hand, I totally respect Sushma Swaraj, and believe her policies to be socially sound. Chidambaram just messed up the economy, and no one is happy with the congress at this point of time. What I hate most about the Congress is that they are turning India into America - totally ignoring the "mixed economy" in the constitution. Liberalisation was a bad move. 
However, at least the Congress has its act together. The country has progressed only when they have been in power, and they do have people who show results and work instead of playing politics. Yeah they use dubious means and stuff, but they get things done - widening the class divide, and throwing principles out of the window, but what the hell. 

The whole thing is however besides the point. When you vote, don't vote for the party you want in power in the center, vote for the person who will directly benefit the location you stay in. That is how democracy is supposed to work. 

I for one, won't vote. 25 million phantom voters in the last count, I will play no part in the world's largest farce.


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## karnivore (Oct 30, 2008)

Anorion said:
			
		

> ...totally ignoring the "mixed economy" in the constitution. Liberalisation was a bad move.


It wasn't by choice, mind you. Oil pool crisis led to liberalization. Once that step was taken, there was no turning back.


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## anispace (Oct 30, 2008)

@swatcat
I know the other side of the story. But destroying a Mosque to make way for a temple. They call themselves Rambhakts and this is what they do in the name of Lord Ram. There is simply no justification for that.

@esumitkumar
I just gave my opinion. didnt want to offend u or anyone.

And as i said they both suck but Congress sucks less. Just look at the whole Nuke deal debate. The BJP had no reason to oppose the deal but they did anyway just to bring down the govt. 


Also the current economic spiral cant be entirely blamed on congress coz its affecting the entire world n not just India.


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## ancientrites (Oct 30, 2008)

i will always support congress.


what this nonsense "A Ban on Cow Slaughter, to honor the Hindu tradition of deeming cows and most cattle as sacred, and prohibiting the consumption of beef and pork"


small examples below
It is mentioned in Manu Smruti, the law book of Hindus! In chapter 5 verse 30 “The eater who eats the flesh of those to be eaten does nothing bad! even if he does it day after day; for God himself created some to be eaten and some to be eater
If you read Mahabharata Shanti Parva chapter 29, a story of greatness of a king called Rantideva is described It is said that he was very rich and generous, and used to feed thousands of guests. The paragraph reads as follows

“All the vessels and the plates, in Rantideva's palace, for holding food and other articles, all the jugs and other pots, the pan and plates and cups, were of gold. On those nights during which the guests used to live in Rantideva's abode, twenty thousand and one hundred kine {cows} had to be slaughtered. Yet even on such occasions, the cooks, decked in ear-rings, used to proclaim (amongst those that sat for supper) “There is abundant of soup, take as much as you wish, but of flesh we have not as much today as on former occasions"

This shows that even after slaughtering 20,100 cows, meat used to fall short on some occasions.

The Ban on Forcible Religious Conversions.
every person has right to do anything which he thinks its proper i mean if he feels christian or islam are good religion and he converts  whats wrong with it?.It is upto the ppl who can defend its religion against christian missionaries,muslim scholars or hindu scholars  by debates,discussion.i saw debate between Dr zakir naik and Shri shri shri Ravishankar.That zakir dude was pretty impressive.

I am not criticizing hindus infact they are most intelligent and beautiful ppl in our country but its just that i am against BJP,VHP and hindu taliban

all said done


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## rhitwick (Oct 30, 2008)

I was a die hard supporter of BJP when Vajpayee was PM, but he has taken retire and I couldn't even decide whgo shoul I vote now.
All r equal now.
No good leader may be some r good person but good leader.


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## esumitkumar (Oct 30, 2008)

> Sorry to disappoint you buddy, but I don't sit pretty at home during the poll day


so wat do u do ? u go to vote or not ..? 



> As with repeal of Hindu Marriage Act. Can you tell me why should there be a Hindu Marriage Act, when the entire Civil Code is to be Uniform



I am not supporting HMA..I am saying one UCC should be enacted for everybody who is present in India no matter what he is...(One Indian can take divorce by saying talaq talaq talaq and another Indian has to run to courts for years to take divorce ! Why this partiality ? ) do u know concept of Jury duty in US ? Once u become an american citizen , u cant refuse from jury duty saying ur religion doesnt allow it  

Another classic example is reservation..One Indian and his all next generations get a special quota ..they get admission with lower marks and another Indian who has scored higher in entrance exam is not given admission as he is not SC/ST/OBC..again fking discrimination !



> And please provide some proof, any proof, from a reliable source, not some random hindu propaganda site, that people do have "four wives legally".


I know ppl dont have now four wives but why their law still allows four wives ?? Even if some Indian has 4 wives police will not catch him just cuz he is of a particular religion




> disastrous plan of unification of rivers etc.


well how can u say that was disastrous ? If in Assam,Bihar there is always flood and in Rajasthan,Gujarat there is always "SOOKHA" or no rain. whats the problem in linking the rivers ???? Please explain your point in detail 



> The only good thing that came out of that 6 years of rule, was the road building project.


at least u agree to one point ..but how about Nuclear test ? do u consider it useless ? in spite of all threats frm Pak and China ! Why Congress had not the guts to do it again after 1974 ? They were just freaking afraid of USA ? In congress I adore only one PM and that was Indira Gandhi !! we need some ironlady/ironman as PM not some lallu panju !



> Think the BJP is going totally wrong on issues like Cow Slaughter and Ayodhya...this is just pleasing to a particular religion



How ? India is a Hindu Majority country ! and in our religion cow is considered as mother...
Whats the harm in banning cow slaughter ?

Our country is the most secular..We dont have any problem peacefully living with other religions...In fact Hindu Dharma is the most tolerant of all religions...and Its in India only we can have a Muslim President, Sikh PM and first woman PM..in the whole world..I have many Muslim close frnds and I never differentiate b/w them and my Hindu frnds ! 

Have u ever seen Pakistan's state of Affairs ? How Hindu minority is living there ? How free are they to practice their religion and worship ? 

Also I had already expressed my opinion about Ayodhya ! 



> Chidambaram just messed up the economy


++1..fully agree



> However, at least the Congress has its act together. The country has progressed only when they have been in power



WOW..what a gr8 point..see some of amazing works done by congress from 1947-1999.

(*READ ALL IN SARCASM..the truth is just opposite*)

1. We have beaten China in 1962 war and occupied most of the China area near Arunachal Pradesh.Chacha Nehru's mantra "Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai" has really worked

2. We are getting in every part of India 24 hrs power supply, safe drinking water,crime free society etc etc

3. Our roads are super freeways, Even American freeways and German Autobahns are nothing as compared to our roads

4. Our population is record lowest . Its lower even than America.( 33 crores)

5. We have fastest railways in whole world . Germany,France and Japan have borrowed Bullet Train technolgies from us..We have so much fast trains that we can reach from Delhi to Mumbai in just 3 hrs. (1407 kms)

6. We have totally stopped cross firing from BDR (Bangaladesh Rifles) In fact we have totally stopped Illegal Immigration ..Its a thing from the past 

7. We are the most corrupt free country in the world

8. BY all above ..our economy is so strong that 1 Rs= 45 $ now 


TOO MUCH hai na 



> The whole thing is however besides the point. When you vote, don't vote for the party you want in power in the center, vote for the person who will directly benefit the location you stay in. That is how democracy is supposed to work.



++1 ..OK so in ur area..Congress has worked ? so vote for them na ?



> I for one, won't vote. 25 million phantom voters in the last count, I will play no part in the world's largest farce.


Thats the gr8est thing which most educated ppl do ...Please dont vote and play safe..Country BJP chalaye ya congress mujhe kya ????? Mere ko kya fark padega ? right ? aisa hee soch k hazaron lakho ppl dont vote..they dont voice their opinion..so who wins..not democracy..but only a handful powerful ppl who want to always remain in power !

If you have read all this..Thanks !

@anispace

I am not offended...we are just having a healthy debate ..thats it ..thnx for ur concern
and ya abt destroying a mosque..Babar had the full right to destroy a temple and karsevaks dont have right to undo what crime he has done ??? I also dont support this type of demolition though...

For ages and ages, first it was British who divided India and now stupid netas are dividing us in the name of religion , regionalism etc etc ..Illiterate ppl are getting all this s**t and we all educated one are not voting 

and ya NUke deal..thats a lotta debatable issue..can u plz tell pros and cons according to u 

I am also agreeing BJP is not 100% good but at least if they are 70% Congress is just 40-45 % 

and ya no one is blaming congress for US recession 

@ancientrites

There were many things said in religious books........kya tum sabko maante ho ? 
Those things were in old times ..Todays things are changed in today's perspective ...
This is human nature we bend all things said as acc to our comfort

and also BJP is not taliban..I am not talking abt RSS etc . In BJP regime how many minorities have been denied all civil rights ? u know why narendra won again..One of my frnds frm Ahmbd was saying even some Muslims vote for Narendra ..y ? cuz he has done a whole lot of dev in the state 

and that zakir dude is pretty BS u can find on orkut many hate communities abt him ...its a propaganda and brainwashing !


@rhitwick 

BJP just needs a rework I think..Party after Vajapyee had fallen to regional chaos and fight amongst themselves..They have gone from their core Hindutva, UCC etc principles..thats why most ppl are unhappy wid them 

May be Narendra can correct that..have u seen in TOI exit polls whats gonna happen in Delhi..BJP will wipe out all majority in forthcoming delhi elections


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## mehra.rakesh (Oct 30, 2008)

BJP is a better party for corporates & business houses ... if they do good naturally the middle classes do good tooo... The problem is the party is in shatters at the moment ...... plus too many hawks are present in the party which scares me ...

Status Quo of article 370 shud be maintained ,, besides it wont be possible to repeal it in a single term of the gov ..

I ain't gonna vote for some party who decides what do i eat ... next thing you know we wud be heading the taliban way with tanks crushing seized liqour en masse ....

Building Ramjanbhoomi temple in ayodhya :::: If they do manage to build a temple i wud be the first one to go there to destroy the temple and build a hospital instead ... Rather even if the logistics dont permit i wud build a nuclear reactor over there . Try & blow that up HAHAHA

still thrs time 4 elections .. i wud be happier to vote 4 manmohan singh with his idiot cabint rather than advani with hawks.......


LOLLING ROFLING at the guy who said liberalizing was a mistake .... by all probabilities DIGIT wudn't have existed so wud have dozens of other start ups including 4m the IT & BPO industry .....


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## The_Devil_Himself (Oct 30, 2008)

BJP is lamer than congress,look at LK advani-everything he says is 'lol'able.


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## gopi_vbboy (Oct 30, 2008)

yeas congress sucks big time.......i wanted to support some party but after seeign these ppl in LS...........i feel these  ppl are not woth voting.........see them in LS channel fighting at each other........shame....

financial crisis,marathi regionalism,etc etc really upsets me with pres gov

will vote for some new party if UNPA is formed.......better than these two foolish party......or else someone suggest some good party i wil vote..............fedup seeing so many pathetic situations in INDIA/We need to have more unity among ppl.....regionalism,casteism,poverty are the biggest issues today(n many others...)......hope someone comes to solve hem in future


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## karnivore (Oct 30, 2008)

esumitkumar said:
			
		

> so wat do u do ? u go to vote or not ..?


  Till 5-6 years ago I did more than just vote. Now I just vote


			
				esumitkumar said:
			
		

> I am not supporting HMA..I am saying one UCC should be enacted for everybody who is present in India no matter what he is...(One Indian can take divorce by saying talaq talaq talaq and another Indian has to run to courts for years to take divorce ! Why this partiality ? ) do u know concept of Jury duty in US ? Once u become an american citizen , u cant refuse from jury duty saying ur religion doesnt allow it
> 
> Another classic example is reservation..One Indian and his all next generations get a special quota ..they get admission with lower marks and another Indian who has scored higher in entrance exam is not given admission as he is not SC/ST/OBC..again fking discrimination !


  Common buddy, you are now shifting the goal post. 
  I am well aware of jury duty, and you know better that there are ways to get out of jury duty.
  I support reservation at primary level, not in IITs and IIMs.


			
				esumitkumar said:
			
		

> I know ppl dont have now four wives but why their law still allows four wives ?? Even if some Indian has 4 wives police will not catch him just cuz he is of a particular religion


  Agreed.


			
				esumitkumar said:
			
		

> well how can u say that was disastrous ? If in Assam,Bihar there is always flood and in Rajasthan,Gujarat there is always "SOOKHA" or no rain. whats the problem in linking the rivers ???? Please explain your point in detail


  Sorry can’t give you the detail, but perhaps Mr Google can help you. Anyway, I had these two bookmarks, which I can share with you. Read a little bit on Amu-Darya project and its disastrous effect on Aral sea. Then read this opened by V. Rajamani, Professor of Geology at JNU, Delhi. Tinkering with nature, beyond a threshold is always disastrous. 


			
				esumitkumar said:
			
		

> ..but how about Nuclear test ? do u consider it useless ? in spite of all threats frm Pak and China ! Why Congress had not the guts to do it again after 1974 ? They were just freaking afraid of USA ? In congress I adore only one PM and that was Indira Gandhi !! we need some ironlady/ironman as PM not some lallu panju !


  About the nuclear test, I am split in two. More than the nuclear blast, I was happy that we could beat the Yankees in their own game of hide n seek. On the other hand, we achieved little from the blast, if you keep the overflowing nationalism in check. The embargo that followed the blasts almost crippled our nuclear plants and defense research, and even some civil projects (funding got cut). If you think in Real (material) terms, there was no gain. 
  Strangely though, I find Ms Gandhi, to be one of the worst PMs of India. Remember Emergency, Bhindranwale (Khalistan movement), turning Congress into family property etc.


			
				esumitkumar said:
			
		

> How ? India is a Hindu Majority country ! and in our religion cow is considered as mother...
> Whats the harm in banning cow slaughter ?


  India is constitutionally secular country. It does not matter which religion is the majority. That’s why it is ethically incorrect to ban cow slaughter. Next the muslims would ask for ban on slaughter of swine.
  And I can actually refer to hymns from Hindu scriptures that profess cow/ox slaughter and beef eating. But lets not get there. But let me quote you only:


			
				esumitkumar said:
			
		

> There were many things said in religious books........kya tum sabko maante ho ?
> Those things were in old times ..Todays things are changed in today's perspective ...





			
				esumitkumar said:
			
		

> Our country is the most secular..We dont have any problem peacefully living with other religions...In fact Hindu Dharma is the most tolerant of all religions...and Its in India only we can have a Muslim President, Sikh PM and first woman PM..in the whole world..I have many Muslim close frnds and I never differentiate b/w them and my Hindu frnds !
> 
> Have u ever seen Pakistan's state of Affairs ? How Hindu minority is living there ? How free are they to practice their religion and worship ?


  Is Hindu Dharma the most tolerant of all religions ? Not considering Buddhism or Jainism, compared to the Abrahamic religions, it is indeed tolerant. But it is intolerant in a different way. It simply refuses to recognize other religion by shoehorning those into its scriptures. There is a reason why Buddhism is virtually non-existing in the land of its birth. 


			
				esumitkumar said:
			
		

> Thats the gr8est thing which most educated ppl do ...Please dont vote and play safe..Country BJP chalaye ya congress mujhe kya ????? Mere ko kya fark padega ? right ? aisa hee soch k hazaron lakho ppl dont vote..they dont voice their opinion..so who wins..not democracy..but only a handful powerful ppl who want to always remain in power !


  You are forgetting, that voting is legal right, NOT compulsory. NOT voting is also a right. Just as voting is expression of opinion, NOT voting is an expression of opinion – negative opinion. In a democratic system, not voting is equivalent to saying, “I don’t like any of the candidates and hence I refuse to choose any of you.” Please explain, why negative opinion is NOT an opinion.


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## Pathik (Oct 30, 2008)

^^  But isn't *NOT voting* different and less effective from *NO Voting* ( *timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1030221.cms ) ?


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## sreevirus (Oct 30, 2008)

Pathik said:


> ^^  But isn't *NOT voting* different and less effective from *NO Voting* ( *timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1030221.cms ) ?


Hmmm, can't really agree there Pathik. If you're given the option of getting whipped by a cane or a whiplash, or not getting whipped at all, what would you choose?

Anyway, these parties are bloodsuckers anyway. In any case, they're only interested in narrow minded appeasement of someone/thing or another. Anyhow, if I feel like I'd be whipped more or less by someone, I can choose to show my dissent that I wouldn't liked to be whipped by anyone.


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## alexanderthegreat (Oct 30, 2008)

A request: PLEASE don't laugh(except at jokes(you'll know!)) after reading the content of this post. Politicians, please dont read this. Also, I'd like to declare that I can't vote(I'm still a minor). Nevertheless, here's what I think:

The NDA was definitely better than the UPA! The falling economy and inflation(can't stress this enough... wait, I guess I can try: *Inflation*) are the proofs which are screaming in our face for attention.

BJP might be better but hey, they are still politicians! Not all of them are evil(All hail Mr. Modi!), but most of them are(in BJP as well as congress, UPA, any party!). The point is, no matter what we choose, a bad apple "destroys" the bunch(I've always wanted to say that!). Corruption, even in little amounts can lead to decay of the whole system! 

When I say whole, I mean whole! look at what happened to Sourabh Ganguly due to politics(Mr. Pawar, please look away).

I've said this before, I'll say this again:-
This might lead to a trapped feeling. That's what causes most of us to gape at other countries and try to find jobs elsewhere. It might appear as if, there's no way out. But there is!!! *Consider trying to enter politics yourself out of frustration caused by the existing politicians!* If a group of nice people do so, India will rise from its ashes!

One may argue that no one will vote for a political newbie!Well, that IS the problem! Common folks here just don't vote for anyone because they give a damn for the country. They just seek someone who is of their caste! Or someone related to them! Or someone who will give them reservations or any kind of previlage. This reminds me of elections in schools. Candidates offer free ice-cream etc!!!!!
So, unless Indians wake up and think of this alternative, there can be no common progress! <Sigh!> I can only wait for such a future (or rather hope for existence of such a future!)
We have democracy! We should use it!(Yet again, I'm feeling like a dork! Any supporters?)

@esumitkumar: Good thing you created this one, I could almost see admins getting angry about the use of Random news as Fight Club!

Also,


esumitkumar said:


> 2. We are getting in every part of India 24 hrs power supply, safe drinking water,crime free society etc etc



Don't joke about matters like that, dude! It really hurts!


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## Anorion (Oct 30, 2008)

karnivore said:


> It wasn't by choice, mind you. Oil pool crisis led to liberalization. Once that step was taken, there was no turning back.



I don't know why the government is buffering the social costs of owning a vehicle. If oil costs so much to the governments, the people with vehicles should bear the total costs of the oil. This means that a lot of people will opt for public transport, which is good for the economy and the ecology. The parking costs of vehicles in metropolitan cities are rediculously low. In fact, they are free in many places. Look at the prime location parking rates in cities like New York, London, Sydney or Tokyo, and you will know how little people owning vehicles are actually paying up. 



esumitkumar said:


> Another classic example is reservation..One Indian and his all next generations get a special quota ..they get admission with lower marks and another Indian who has scored higher in entrance exam is not given admission as he is not SC/ST/OBC..again fking discrimination !



Reservation is a good thing. Although how it is implemented is totally irregular, to equalize the class devide, you totally need reservations. One example of this is that mosts scientists in India are from Upper class Hindu Brahmin families from South India. 



esumitkumar said:


> Whats the harm in banning cow slaughter ?



Only that it is against the beliefs of another religion, and they don't care about the friggin cows, they care about the number of votes this step will get them. 

@Ayodhya: so what if it was a Ram temple all those centuries ago. If we go on to correct every single historical mistake commited in this country, we will end up not taking pro-active steps for the future. The govt should not invest in anything at Ayodhya. If anything, a hospital or a school should be set up there using money from Hindu and Muslim funds. Now that would be something productive instead of another hell-hole of sacrilage. 




esumitkumar said:


> WOW..what a gr8 point..see some of amazing works done by congress from 1947-1999.
> 
> (*READ ALL IN SARCASM..the truth is just opposite*)
> 
> ...



Except point 8, none of this is the fault of the Congress. You expect the congress to stop Indians from breeding like rats? You expect the BJP can do that? Who started the "hum do hamare do" thing? Who developed health care and the mid day meal program. Go figure. These are inherent problems of India, unless we go communist or something, these problems will never be solved. Because of the rates of renumeration of the Beurocracy, corruption will awlays be there. Bangladeshis will continue to flee to India, and as humans have a right to escape terribly inhuman conditions and come to relatively less inhuman conditions. We should accomodate them, the same as we accomate refugees from Pakistan and Sri Lanka. Bangladeshis are people too, not lesser mongrels. The problem with the roads is not that the concrete is not of good quality, its just that the transportation people [illegaly] overload their trucks, something for which the highways were simply not designed. This was from a survey conducted by the UN to see how India was using world bank funds. 



esumitkumar said:


> ++1 ..OK so in ur area..Congress has worked ? so vote for them na ?



No. Actually, in my area, the Shiv Sena has worked. They really have. I am not a marathi manoos, and I am totally against some of their methods, but in my locality, they are the most promising goons around, they will probably end up in a BJP govt at the center, which will totally work for the most of you, but I still refuse to vote. 



esumitkumar said:


> Thats the gr8est thing which most educated ppl do ...Please dont vote and play safe..Country BJP chalaye ya congress mujhe kya ????? Mere ko kya fark padega ? right ? aisa hee soch k hazaron lakho ppl dont vote..they dont voice their opinion..so who wins..not democracy..but only a handful powerful ppl who want to always remain in power !



I do care a damn. There are retards, illiterates, fanatics, lunatics and idiots out there, and all of them vote. I will vote if any one here can give me just ONE direct benefit of doing so. What good will my vote do to me? The country is going strong irrespective of the govt in the center. Less than 60% of the people cast their ballots, and you call this country a democracy. Elections are simple hilarious, its a comedy and a put up. Everyone knows who is going to win and for what reasons. Anti-incubancy is a decisive factor in every elections since independance. We just end up hating the govt that ruled for five years. 



sreevirus said:


> Anyway, these parties are bloodsuckers anyway. In any case, they're only interested in narrow minded appeasement of someone/thing or another. Anyhow, if I feel like I'd be whipped more or less by someone, I can choose to show my dissent that I wouldn't liked to be whipped by anyone.



+1

Vote for the BJP if you guys want. It will be "India Shining" all over again, and everyone will have a few laughs with them going on stage and putting on a comedy. The only good thing is we won't have bloodsucking leeches in power. 

Whatever happened to the hammer and the sickle?


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## alexanderthegreat (Oct 30, 2008)

^^Communism? It's no match for Democracy! We are just not using democracy to its full extent! You mark my words: The day we really use democracy, we WILL be the best country there is!


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## Anorion (Oct 30, 2008)

^^ we don't deserve democracy. Democracy works only in a country where the entire population is educated and well informed. Fat chance of that between the govt and the media.


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## manishjha18 (Oct 30, 2008)

hey bjp is good for our defence
my brother is in navy--he was telling me that bjp really took care of defence forces-
and yes they think george fernandes was the best defence minister till date.
and what more more all his colleague support bjp--

and for economics too bjp is a good party.industrial growth really soared up during their time.
i guess being pro bjp is like being pro mother india


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## alexanderthegreat (Oct 30, 2008)

@anorion:Everyone deserves a say! The population should know who to vote. Or, how to stand up in the elections itself (I'm not gonna repeat the contents of my previous post again! Read yourself, it's just above yours!). No one likes being ruled over! It's just that its not functioning well! If, its not functioning well, we shouldn't remove it altogether. We should not just learn to live with it, we should make the population aware! This requires time, but is the only way apart from the disgraceful ABANDON SHIP!

By the way, welcome new mod Anorion! Didn't spot that earlier!


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## gopi_vbboy (Oct 30, 2008)

wtf!!

serial blast in assam-40dead-in 18 places

new coming in tv


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## m-jeri (Oct 30, 2008)

@aniron...

Finally one line that can be said correct.

@ esumit

U live in US btw r8?? .... then why are u even in this debate??..

and by reading ur statements i can clearly understand that u are very happy and supportive that all the BJP's policy to uphold Hinduism. i was referring to ur statements
regarding to the temple building and cow things.... and against the repel of HMA

U first have to understand what a true democratic secular nation is. This will not be tolerated or allowed in one. coz this will be just supporting of a particular religion. 

And who i will vote. None. both bjp and congress or even commies dont deserve a vote. coz india is the worst democratic nation in the world.why should i support it. why should i support for some uneducated idiot to run my country. what could he possibly do for a common citizen. 

last 60 years of independence.what have we achieved as a nation. dont say the roads,rockets,IT and stuff. what has it done to the most common man? How hard is a person to live in this nation? the living costs? the common facilities.?the job scene?

India is just a puppet nation now. a big pool of resource.

and esumit...u dont need to even read this..cost this matters with people who actually live here their life.. ..

Most of us with education including me are looking or taking the way out from this mess.
this kinda debates are only good in papers fellows. beyond that they serve no purpose.

and if i have to vote it will be congress coz they do not encourage the racism and religiousness. but not saying that they are good. the other ones are too aggressive and biased.

Jerin


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## karnivore (Oct 30, 2008)

Sreevirus said:
			
		

> If you're given the option of getting whipped by a cane or a whiplash, or not getting whipped at all, what would you choose?


EXACTLY.



			
				Anorion said:
			
		

> I don't know why the government is buffering the social costs of owning a vehicle. If oil costs so much to the governments, the people with vehicles should bear the total costs of the oil. This means that a lot of people will opt for public transport, which is good for the economy and the ecology. The parking costs of vehicles in metropolitan cities are rediculously low. In fact, they are free in many places. Look at the prime location parking rates in cities like New York, London, Sydney or Tokyo, and you will know how little people owning vehicles are actually paying up.


Perhaps you got me wrong. I was referring to the oil pool deficit of 1991, which reduced Foreign reserve to less than $ 1 billion, just enough to pay for a week's worth of foreign loan interest. By this time, thanks to Mr Rajib Gandhi, India was already in a debt trap (i.e. taking loan to pay a previous loan). When India went to World Bank for more money, they refused, because they feared that India was on the verge of being bankrupt. They suggested certain corrective measures, for the sake of collateral. Mr Manmohan Singh did not accept all of their proposals (and saved India from the fate of Argentina.) but opened up the economy, as one condition, and used Gold as collateral. (I still remember how the commie ba$tard$ cried shrill about it) The rest is history.

As with your query if by charging the car owners any oil crisis can be avoided. The answer is yes and no. Petrol is used in private cars. But diesel (and coal) is the backbone of the economy. By increasing petrol price, a fraction of the cost can be recovered. Govt. can't afford to increase the price of diesel beyond a threshold. That will increase transportation cost, manufacturing cost and all other incidental costs. That will increase the price of all goods. That will result in severe inflation. That will result in erosion of money value. And...you probably know the rest.

Petroleum does not (at least a year or so ago) cost as much as you think it does. The price shoots up after charging Excise duty (duty on manufacturing/ processing) and Central/ State sales tax (duty on sale) and Cess (duty on duty). Problem is, our Govt. earns a huge chunk of revenue from petroleum. So it can't afford to cut down on the duties.

Believe me, it is way more complicated.



			
				Anorion said:
			
		

> Democracy works only in a country where the entire population is educated and well informed.


NOPE. Democracy has nothing to do with education. Information and Consciousness are all that is needed for the democracy to work and visionary leaders are needed to make it a success story.


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## esumitkumar (Oct 30, 2008)

@madjeri..I am on a short term trip to US ...I am returning back in just some days..I dont live permanently in US..so shut up ur mouth saying I dont have a right to participate in this debate    ..In fact u can urself see who is author of this thread !!!!!

and in fact even there are so many NRIs who help our country sending forex....arent they still Indian at heart ....dont they have any right to say ???? 



> and if i have to vote it will be congress coz they do not encourage the racism and religiousness


hahaha..they promote minority (for their s**t vote bank) so much that we have no say in our own country..They are not stopping Raj from spreading marathi manoos and u r saying they dont promote racism 

@Anorion

Its because of ppl like u that Bangladeshis have become so strong..u are saying they are also humans and all things ..blah blah blah ..agreed and see in return what they have done in Assam...

Terror struck the hub of North-East when over a dozen blasts ripped through commercial areas of the capital and three other districts on Thursday, killing 56 people and injuring 350 others. 

The first of the 13 bombs, suspected to have been planted by Bangladesh-based HuJI members, went off simultaneously around 11.30 am under the Ganeshguri flyover, near the high-security capital complex housing the Assembly building, Paltan Bazar and Fancy Bazar here. 

NOW ALL SUPPORT stupid Manmohan and hail Sonia..Jai Congress 
remove POTA and have bomb blasts everywhere ....Wow Congress really rocks !

Also BDR kills BSF jawans mostly and UPA does not care ..who cares for army 

and u r saying we shud allow them to come and nurture them 



> Reservation is a good thing


Dr BR Ambedkar has said himself to put reservation for only 10 yrs and due to stupid vote bank politics Congress has made reservation continue up to this day ? and Anorion dont u support free competition ? SURVIVAL of the fittest ? Would u like to be treated by a less competitive SC/ST doctor who got selected in med college just by his caste (even though he wasnt good enuf in entrance exam marks) so that he can leave a scissor in ur stomach 


and to all read my previous posts : Once again I repeat what I said :

1. Leave Mandir- Masjid one side..Its not going to help common man. Babar destroyed Mandir and Karsevaks destroyed Masjid..So leave all that as such

2. I am in favor of UCC..There should be same law for each Indian (I dunno how u ppl bring in b/w HMA, HUF )

3. About Cow : Thats my feeling..If u ppl like eating cow, its ur wish ....GO and Kill those simple creatures of Mother Earth and eat ! 

4. About communism :Thats GOOD...Our country has become a potfull of rats..Now only some danda , COMMUNISM like China or some Nationalistic Dictator can save it ...


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## karnivore (Oct 30, 2008)

esumitkumar said:
			
		

> and in fact even there are so many NRIs who help our country sending forex....arent they still Indian at heart


The bulk of NRI investment in India is in Debt securities not in equity. So, lets just say, that they are not doing any favour. They are just creating debt.



			
				esumitkumar said:
			
		

> 1. Leave Mandir- Masjid one side..Its not going to help common man. Babar destroyed Mandir and Karsevaks destroyed Masjid..So leave all that as such
> 
> 2. I am in favor of UCC..There should be same law for each Indian (I dunno how u ppl bring in b/w HMA, HUF )
> 
> ...


1. We want to leave these things behind. But, surprise surprise, which party is not letting it go ?

2. If you do not understand how HUF and HMA are involved then you understand jack about UCC. You are only parroting a nationalistic line, which has made you believe that UCC will only tighten the screw against the muslims, and the hindus can have their way. Epic fail

3. You just can't ban cow slaughter. Not supporting the ban does not mean we have to go and feast on beef. It is an ethical stand. Thats all.

4. Communism is a failed system. No person wants that.


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## esumitkumar (Oct 30, 2008)

^^thats y I have created this debate so that we all know the unknown things....

now explain to me what are Debt securities ???
and what has UCC has to do with HMA and HUF? Please explain in DETAIL ...

how communism is failed ? Isnt US now feary of China progress and growth 

I found an interesting piece of code frm wiki about UCC :

Muslims are also funded for the Hajj, a pilgrimage to Mecca and subsidies for their religious schools (Madrassas). On one hand, Government of India provides subsidy to Muslim to perform Haj; on other hand, Government of India bound them to fly through government airlines and also gets subsidy from Saudi Arabia for services providing to Indian Muslims, 

whereas Hindus claim they are accorded no similar privilege for their own pilgrimages or religious schools by the Government of India. Not only are Hindus not accorded any special privileges despite being the majority, they are even made to pay for subsidies to Muslims and Christians pilgrimages and religious education. 

Christians are also given separate standards for divorce—which is more difficult for them than it is for Hindus.


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## Anorion (Oct 30, 2008)

@Karnivore

The dynamics of geopolitics need not be analysed in intricate detail for everyone to KNOW that the UN/US blackmailed India into trade liberalisation against its own principles, and policies enshrined in the National Constitution. 

Communism has not failed. China is doing great. The anti-communism propoganda by the media in the west smothered it, and in-fighting amongst communists over ideologies fragmented it, but the basic foundations are robust enough, and the only thing that can save India from the present situation. That or the imaginary benovolent dictatorship. A lot of non-voters believe this to be the case anyway. 

@ esumitkumar
non-voting is not about shrugging responsibilities, betraying the nation or simply not caring. It is about understanding that there is no, zilch, nada benefit to the individual on casting his or her vote. 
And don't judge all the inhabitants of a Nation based on what a bunch of them did. If India were to be judged based on what Raj Thackeray is doing, or those guys at Anand Marg, we'd have a pretty bad impression indeed. 

If only everyone were atheists, half the problem would be solved, and politics would address more serious issues. 

SOME of the people in the BJP can beat ALL the people in the Congress. Advani or Shushma Swaraj to name a few. If only they could bring themselves about to kick the Hindutva agenda.


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## zatang (Oct 30, 2008)

esumitkumar said:


> @madjeri..I am on a short term trip to US ...I am returning back in just some days..I dont live permanently in US..so shut up ur mouth saying I dont have a right to participate in this debate   ..In fact u can urself see who is author of this thread !!!!!
> 
> and in fact even there are so many NRIs who help our country sending forex....arent they still Indian at heart ....dont they have any right to say ????
> 
> ...



Talking of UCC, Muslims in India can marry only 4 wives and that is because it is upper limit as per their religious book, i.e, Quran. There is no upper limit of wives in Hinduism. Shri Krishna had 16108 wives, Raja Dasrath (father of Shri Rama) had 4 wives. And not even polygamy, Hindusim even had polygney, Drapaudi had 4 husbands. 

Now since there is no limitation of wives as per hindu scriptures, the Hindu Marriage act was formed to protect the rights of the poor woman so that her husband can't cheat on her. 

In muslim faith, more than 1 wife means giving equal rights to each wife (otherwise the wife can ask for nullification of marriage). Not that u have one gharwali and a hidden baharwali. And its not easy, its not that damn easy. Even having one wife is difficult, forget about 2, 3 or 4 wives. 

Morever, if u feel sorry 'NOT' to enjoy having 4 wives, then the same Indian law gives you full athourity to change your religion and enjoy the 'privilages' gieven to people of other faith  

Ironically, As per the 1975 census of India Hindus are more polygynous than Muslims. The report of the ‘Committee of The Status of Woman in Islam’, published in 1975 mentions on page numbers 66 and 67 that the percentage of polygamous marriages between the years 1951 and 1961 was 5.06% among the Hindus and only 4.31% among the Muslims. 

Talking of Ram Mandir issue, lets analyse who made it an issue? Isn't it BJP who made this issue and issue in the first place. See, what Swami Agnivesh ( *a 'H-I-N-D-U'*) from from Arya Samaj has to say about the Ram Mandir issue "There are already more than 100 Ram temples at Ayodhya. Of these, 15 are 'birthplace temples' of Ram, marking the site where he was supposed to have been born. And if you go to any of these the priest will tell you that his temple is more authentic than the others. And yet the VHP and others are clamoring for a 16th temple at a site that used to be a mosque." 

Published in TIME magazine, read it here
*www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,100748,00.html 

Now, talking of eating cow. There is no problem if a person wants to remains vegetarian. No Indian law is forcing a veg - to non-veg. But if you insists these 'poor and simple' creatures of Mother Earth shouldn't be killed, then presumably your arguement is nothing but derived out of Blind biasness. Its better you read Hindu scriptures to say such a statement because then you have criticise the revered figures in Hinduism who indulged in killing those 'simple and innocent' creatures of Mother earth.

It is mentioned in Manu Smruti, the law book of Hindus, in chapter 5 verse 30
*“The eater who eats the flesh of those to be eaten does nothing bad,
even if he does it day after day, for God himself created some to be eaten
and some to be eater.”*

Again next verse of Manu Smruti, that is, chapter 5 verse 31 says
*“Eating meat is right for the sacrifice, this is traditionally known as a rule of
the gods.”*

Further in Manu Smruti chapter 5 verse 39 and 40 says
*“God himself created sacrificial animals for sacrifice, ... , therefore killing in
a sacrifice is not killing.”*

Mahabharata Anushashan Parva chapter 88 narrates the discussion between Dharmaraj Yudhishthira and Pitamah Bhishma about what food one should offer to Pitris (ancestors) during the Shraddha (ceremony of dead) to keep them satisfied. Paragraph reads as follows: “Yudhishthira said, “O thou of great puissance, tell me what that object is which, if dedicated to the Pitiris (dead ancestors), become inexhaustible! What Havi, again, (if offered) lasts for all time? What, indeed, is that which (if presented) becomes eternal?” “Bhishma said, “Listen to me, O Yudhishthira, what those Havis are which persons conversant with the rituals of the Shraddha (the ceremony of dead) regard as suitable in view of Shraddha and what the fruits are that attach to each. With sesame seeds and rice and barely and Masha and water and roots and fruits, if given at Shraddhas, the pitris, O king, remain gratified for the period of a month. With fishes offered at Shraddhas, the pitris remain gratified for a period of two months. With the mutton they remain gratified for three months and with the hare for four months, with the flesh of the goat for five months, with the bacon (meat of pig) for six months, and with the flesh of birds for seven. With venison obtained from those deer that are called Prishata, they remain gratified for eight months, and with that obtained from the Ruru for nine months, and with the meat of Gavaya for ten months, With the *meat of the bufffalo* their gratification lasts for eleven months. With beef presented at the Shraddha, their gratification, it is said, lasts for a full year. Payasa mixed with ghee is as much acceptable to the pitris as beef. With the meat of *Vadhrinasa (a large bull) *the gratification of pitris lasts for twelve years. the flesh of rhinoceros, offered to the pitris on anniversaries of the lunar days on which they died, becomes inexhaustible. The potherb called Kalaska, the petals of kanchana flower, and meat of (red) goat also, thus offered, prove inexhaustible. So but natural if you want to keep your ancestors satisfied forever, you should serve them the meat of red goat.

Now regarding the Bomb Blasts, this is what Assam Government has to say 
*
ULFA may be behind serial blasts, says Assam govt*
*timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ULFA_m...lasts_says_Assam_govt/articleshow/3654610.cms

See, this is what BJP has does. Creating extreme hatred and politics of Divide and rule, fully borrowed from Queen of England. This is why people like you are so mind-controlled and think in only one direction. 

I personally don't suport anyone, BJP, Congress or Communist. (Talking of SP, Mulayam Singh openly declared in parliament that he support Muslims because he is interested in Muslim votes)Yet, i support an ideology which doesn't believe in invoking racial, cultural, regional or religious biasness to attract its vote bank. 

I support an ideology which believes that development issues should be in top priority in its agenda, and development not only of tier A cities, but of remote villages. 

The rosy pictures of Indian metros is just an illusion, the real India is the rural India. Which is having the maximum population and requires the maximum overall development. 

few days back, i attended a presentation by a NGO Goonj working for flood relief in Bihar and other under developed villages under its clothes for work program. They gave me a shocking fact that there are hundred and thousands of women in India who don't have a proper cloth to cover themselves during menses. Sometimes two women interchange the soiled clothes. Major level of pregnancy deaths in rural sector is due to lack of sanitation. 

There are even a group of 'Untouchables' in India in Madhya Pradesh who are called MushakBhashi. They live on catching and eating RATS. 

I am not a volunteer of Goonj or any other NGO, these points were fresh in my mind so i just mentioned. 

Why a hungary soul needs anything else but food? Why a naked body, need anything more than a piece of cloth. 

Divide and conquer is the motto. And as long as people continue to see themselves as separate from everything else they lend themselves to be completely enslaved.

*When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace*. - Jimi Hendrix


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## alexanderthegreat (Oct 30, 2008)

madjeri said:


> @ esumit
> 
> U live in US btw r8?? .... then why are u even in this debate??..
> 
> ...



See? *This* is why no political party, good or bad, can help us(I'm not accusing madjeri)! This is not different from the kick-all-non-maharashtris campaign of Mr. Thackeray(I still didn't spell it right eh? To hell with it!). Even if he does live in the US, he is still a member of this forum and free to express his views and discuss anything! When will people understand that the world is not limited by international boundaries(let alone state boundaries!).

Anyway, I'll request you not to go out of India in search of better opportunities. Instead, create them here! Otherwise, someday, a foreign version of Mr. Thackeray will start kicking us out of Britain, China, Russia, US etc. too! India will face the same conditions Bihar and UP(mostly Bihar) are facing now! We'll be insulted(and maybe even killed!) and will be told to make our own piece of land a better place!

I'm staying! I'm not accepting any job offers from any other country in the future!(Considering I get one!)

Back on topic: I had heard that the Khalifa had asked all Muslims not to kill Cows for it hurted the religious sentiments of their brothers(Hindus). This is something global effort! Better than making it illegal using the constitution!

Also, you people have gotta understand that India is a *SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR* Democratic Republic! We here, are, unlike most other countries, tolerant to all religions(tolerate should not be the word though!). Thus, the constitution needs to be adapted to suit all religions! Otherwise, it would be Minority vs. Majority all over again! 

To those who ask equal laws still, I give you this: for that to be, Humanity needs to develop very strong bonds of friendship and unity. Unity in religion should be achieved by some revolution(I'm talking about existence of only one supreme religion(or none)). AND, one does not need foresight to predict that Humanity is veeeeeery very far from that stage! Fear not, that day will come if Humanity is not destroyed by then. I personally predict that will be near the end of Earth or after some catastrophe affecting earth.


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## karnivore (Oct 30, 2008)

esumitkumar said:


> ^^thats y I have created this debate so that we all know the unknown things....
> 
> now explain to me what are Debt securities ???
> and what has UCC has to do with HMA and HUF? Please explain in DETAIL ...
> ...


Lets see if I can answer some of your questions.

Debt security: Lets assume A ltd needs some fund. It can raise that by breaking its ownership into tiny pieces called shares and sell them to investors. Additionally, for a better leverage, it can raise loans. It can raise loans from banks, but then, it will have to abide by all the terms and conditions of the banks. One way to avoid the banking route, is to issue debt securities. An investor buying such security, is actually lending money to A Ltd, but on terms and conditions of the company. The investor will be guaranteed a fixed payment (interest) irrespective of financial condition of the company. Now debt instrument can be of various types and I am not going into the detail. I would mention one point though. The debt securities have a life (perpetual debt securities are banned in India). This means after the expiry of a time period, the money will have to be refunded to the investor, and in the meanwhile he will be paid interest. Govt. too raises money this way.

UCC vis-a-vis HMA/HUF: UCC has nothing to do with these acts. These acts have a lot to do with UCC. If UCC is implemented, then there will be no separate act for individual religious group. HMA/HUF come under Civil Code. Therefore, these will be repealed, as will be Sharia. Mitakshara and Dayabhanga philosophies will be defunct. etc etc.

Communism is failed theory ? Yes it is. Little of what is happening in Chinese economy has anything to do with communism. Communism there is nothing but a sign board.

Subsidy to religious pilgrimage: This unconstitutional. This is a secular country and govt. can't do anything to promote a particular religion. After Babri Masjid, Narhasima Rao started giving subsidy to the Haj pilgrims, clearly to mollycoddle the community. The muslim countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan don't give subsidy, because it is against Sharia and these countries have adopted Sharia.

Pilgrimage to Kailash-Manash Sarovar will earn a hindu a pretty good subsidy, depending upon which state you live in. UP and Gujrat provide subsidy. Delhi residents get subsidy. There is a gerneral subsidy given via Kumaon Mandal Vikas Nigam as well.


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## Pathik (Oct 30, 2008)

Anorion said:


> I don't know why the government is buffering the social costs of owning a vehicle. If oil costs so much to the governments, the people with vehicles should bear the total costs of the oil. This means that a lot of people will opt for public transport, which is good for the economy and the ecology. The parking costs of vehicles in metropolitan cities are rediculously low. In fact, they are free in many places. Look at the prime location parking rates in cities like New York, London, Sydney or Tokyo, and you will know how little people owning vehicles are actually paying up.



I completely agree with that. I dont mind paying a few extra bucks for petrol. The Govt should not subsidize petrol for everyone, but only for those who can't afford it. If petrol becomes costlier then we will *have* to adopt alternative measures - the cheaper eco-friendly ones.



sreevirus said:


> Hmmm, can't really agree there Pathik. If you're given the option of getting whipped by a cane or a whiplash, or not getting whipped at all, what would you choose?
> 
> Anyway, these parties are bloodsuckers anyway. In any case, they're only interested in narrow minded appeasement of someone/thing or another. Anyhow, if I feel like I'd be whipped more or less by someone, I can choose to show my dissent that I wouldn't liked to be whipped by anyone.



Sree, but not getting whipped at all won't kick out the people bearing the whip in the first place. Wouldn't it be better if you get whipped once but atleast kick out the whip-bearers. 

Atleast the parties will be forced to field better candidates if there is a majority NO VOTE.


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## esumitkumar (Oct 30, 2008)

> See? This is why no political party, good or bad, can help us(I'm not accusing madjeri)! This is not different from the kick-all-non-maharashtris campaign of Mr. Thackeray(I still didn't spell it right eh? To hell with it!). Even if he does live in the US, he is still a member of this forum and free to express his views and discuss anything! When will people understand that the world is not limited by international boundaries(let alone state boundaries!).



Thanks Alexey..but how many times I have to clarify that IM JUST TO US on a SHORT TRIP and I m coming in few days..

U ppl are thinking I have immigrated to US and thats why I dont understand ground issue..  and just for the heck for it..I have created this issue 

ITS NOT LIKE THAT...Wherever I live or have been doesnt matter, I will remain Indian at my heart always


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## mediator (Oct 30, 2008)

zatang said:


> Talking of UCC, Muslims in India can marry only 4 wives and that is because it is upper limit as per their religious book, i.e, Quran. There is no upper limit of wives in Hinduism. Shri Krishna had 16108 wives, Raja Dasrath (father of Shri Rama) had 4 wives. And not even polygamy, Hindusim even had polygney, Drapaudi had 4 husbands.
> 
> Now since there is no limitation of wives as per hindu scriptures, the Hindu Marriage act was formed to protect the rights of the poor woman so that her husband can't cheat on her.
> 
> ...


Obviously u r not a hindu or else u might have known that Hinduism has its 'base' in Vedas. Also u would have known that many of the quotes from manusmriti are in direct violation with Vedas and many don't even have a mention. Further you would know that Hindus, whose 'law book' u mentioned, isn't much of relevance today!! You must understand that it doesn't enjoy the same privilege that Muslims do where Maulvis, Maulanas make/bend/ammend rulez to fit themselves! To the least, it doesn't even state that there exists any religion called "Hinduism" and to embrace it or to kill kaafirs or practise stewpid circumcision! I understand many of the slokas that u quoted were copied and pasted from some stewpid ISLAMIC site which discusses and compares other religion to show itself corrected (like some politic game), which again is based on Zakir Nayar's notorious 'misleading mistranslations', which further is based on the apalling work of Max Mueller and other Christian missionaries!! 
So before you start hitting back, do your research well! Understand the status of Manusmriti, understand the real slokas and understand the misery of these ISLAMIC sites and Zakir Nair which have only one funny motto - 'East or West, ISLAM is the best'! 

Regarding no. of wives, Hinduism is silent on it! Its fine if some laws want to limit it with 1:1 ratio. Exceptional cases like draupadi etc desn't give ISLAM a right to limit it to 4, if thats what you r saying. Why four? Any logical explanation? Why not 5 or 2 or 100? Its funny when you answer giving explanation that ISLAM prescribes such a medication. It gives a picture that the believers are a lump of chumps, and don't even  question what the scriptures say!! Hadiths tells you to circumcise and so u circumcise, ISLAM tell u to make women wear burqa and so the women wear burqa etc etc! Now ISLAM has become a deciding factor for women's wear! And the reason most Muslims give, 'that pervertness resides in man'. Well, doesn't ISLAM teach anything to control that pervertness? Also if it can give a limit of 4, then why can't it limit the number of children one can have? And we hear the imbecile Bukhari of Jama Masjid who has so many criminal cases against him say that 'Allah has allowed us to produce as many'. I hope you read newspapers daily! Start this discussion of family planning the next time you goto a mosque or with some hardcore muslims or maulanas just for fun.  So you must understand that I can go on and on endlessly to remove your misconceptions. It would be better if you do it your own way by reading the original scriptures and not some distorted ones.

Now coming back, this discussion is about votes, political parties and not religious discussions on which is better and which one is flawed! I guess all the funds for Mecca/Madina or even Hindu places should be abolished. I would have favoured it if they were funding for any Hindu religious place in US/Europe/Australia etc. Just kidding. But, who doesn't want to tour the world u know. 
Also, they should stop the construction of further religious places for people don't have houses to live in and others are donating on jewellery for gods, construction & decoration of religious places, the money which can be used to build a school, and feed many physically and mentally, instead and give sound primary eduation to the poor which further can become a straight solution for the crappy reservation system.

@srivirus : Why don't you give a chance to Shiv Khera as u seem to be frustrated like me and disgusted with the present politicians.


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## karnivore (Oct 31, 2008)

Vivekanda, one of our favourite poster boys for vedas, thought vedas professed cow slaughter and beef eating.


> The Vedas have two parts, mandatory and optional. The mandatory injunctions are eternally binding on us and constitute the Hindu religion. The optional ones are not so. The *brahmins at one time ate beef *andmarried shudras.* A calf was killed to please the guest.* Shudras cooked for brahmins. The food cooked by a male brahmin was considered as polluted food.
> 
> In Pilibit in January of 1901, the swami (_i.e. Vivekanda_) adduced facts and authorities from the Vedas and the Samhitas in proof of his claim [that] even the *Vedic rishis ate, and enjoined upon others, to eat beef,* the very name of which is not offensive to the ears of orthodox Hindus. *In the old Vedic period it was the practice to kill cows in honor of guests and at certain ceremonies and on auspicious occasions*, and he supported his remarks by dilating on the evils that had accrued in *the degeneracy of the Hindu race through the fanaticism of anti- meat-eating* and the deshacharas and lokacharas [local customs] of the so-called orthodoxists.


Source (Italics in bracket are mine so is the emphasis.)

Some other random references from Rig Veda (in no particular order)
V.29.7; VI.17.11; VIII.12.8; VIII. 43.11; X.14-18; X.27.2; X.28.3; X.86.14; X.91.14

There are several other references scattered through out the vedas. But I will stop here, because this has the potential to spiral out of control and derail the thread.


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## m-jeri (Oct 31, 2008)

@ esumitkumar...

first u need to get ur frikking mind ready for some arguments before posting a thread like this...stop whining like a sissy...

then try to understand the fellow ppl than bashing others...as u can clearly see from ALL OTHER posters... they either do not support any parties... or do not support bjp..
why?... they want their nation to be tolerant...

U say Congress is promoting itself by holding up the minorities..agreed...atleast they are try to do..so ur take is that only one religion be given importance???

stop being so narrow minded and stupid like them... if you are a educated fellow i dont see why u support this crap and even intd abt a topic like politics...

In a nation like india u see politicians in flesh only during campaigns..other times they are very busy doing things for their personal benefit.. 60 years of independence and if u still dont understand then u will never..

Learn to be a tolerant fellow. allow others to grow too. You will never be trampled by the _minorities_ ...


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## amitabhishek (Oct 31, 2008)

BJP. Narendra Modi is a rock star!

Congress is a party of (spineless) sycophants.


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## m-jeri (Oct 31, 2008)

^^^


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## Faun (Oct 31, 2008)

its like choosing between duty and freedom


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## mediator (Oct 31, 2008)

karnivore said:


> Vivekanda, one of our favourite poster boys for vedas, thought vedas professed cow slaughter and beef eating.
> Source (Italics in bracket are mine so is the emphasis.)
> 
> Some other random references from Rig Veda (in no particular order)
> ...


I understand. There has been so much distortion! Then, I read the notorious sacred-texts.com n I was flabbergasted! First we have already lost a lot of text on Vedas over the period of time and now they distort and mislead on the remaining! WTH


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## nix (Oct 31, 2008)

its no use voting for BJP. because its impossible for anybody to change india now. its too late. the future is bleak, we need to do something about this population explosion and illegal immigration issue. 

the problem is democracy, as anorion said. problem is you gotta please people to get votes, and there is always going to be some people against, so you wont get their votes. you cannot implement policies which are necessary, but not favored. 

this is happening in USA too. right now. illegal immigration used to be an issue in USA but now, no one touches it. niether obama or mccain are willing to talk about it coz they may lose the mexican vote. one day there will be more mexicans in america than mexico. those people tough on illegal immigrants are viewed as racist.


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## karnivore (Oct 31, 2008)

mediator said:


> I understand. There has been so much distortion! Then, I read the notorious sacred-texts.com n I was flabbergasted! First we have already lost a lot of text on Vedas over the period of time and now they distort and mislead on the remaining! WTH


I am not sure how much of B.D.Ukhal's (an Arya Swamji) word can be taken seriously. First, he uses Dawananda Saraswati's translation. Dawananda Saraswati was notorious for his "Go back to vedas" call and "No error in vedas" posit. He was notorious for his virulent diatribe against Islam and Christianity. If, 19th Century Western scholars were guilty of mistranslating the ancient texts, because of their prejudice to their own religion, then it begs a question - why Dawananda Saraswati would not be considered biased as well. After all he was a Hindu _sanyasi_. Also, did he have the expertise to accurately translate the anciet sanskrit, which required not only thorough understanding of Paninian rules (which presumably he lacked), but also, a fair amount of Avestan and Mittani grammer as well (These are precisely the reason, why many translation of Muller, Monier-Williams, Wilson etc, turned out to be eronous. The lack of knowledge of the related languages). No self respecting scholar considers his translations as worthy of any acedamic references. But Mr Ukhal is an Arya Swamaji. He is left with no choice. Also note carefully, other than Sw. Dawananda, he uses Sw. Satya Prakash's work, who is also a follower of Dawanda and an Arya Swamaji. No references from outside Arya Swamaj.

Second, he constantly uses H.H. Wilson's translations to pick his bone. This is grossly odd. A far better and more recent body of work on TRANSLATION of vedic texts exists. It gives the impression that he has deliberately done so, because, the errors made by these authors are well know and are easy to reference. Its like flogging a dead horse and doing a victory lap. Also, remember, no translation is perfect, and no body has attempted at complete translation. If a translation is rejected then reasons must be given. And no, christian prejudice is not a good enough reason, because the same reason can be given, i.e. hindu prejudice to reject works by Indian scholars (Sw Dayananda or Sw Satya Prakash, in any case, had no expertise in these matters. And no, just being a hindu _sanyasi_, or knowing sanskrit is not enough to translate these texts.)

Mr Ukhul's failure to provide scholarly references, which are free from religious overtones, and failure to use more modern and better translation to compare to, makes his criticism a farce. Even other hindu apologists rarely make references to Dayananda's translation because of silly mistakes that he had made in interpreting some slokas. Making an offender, to be the judge of his offense, is probably not a very wise move.

May be it won't be out of place to note, B.D.Ukhul is an ex-librarian. I am not sure, how an ex-librarian's word becomes authority over a professional historian, a.k.a D.N. Jha. In Part I of the rejoinder he paraphrases a quote of Macaulay, which Macaulay hadn't actually said. How much can an author be trusted who can't even cross check ?

I think this is the beginning of the derailment of the thread.


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## Psychosocial (Oct 31, 2008)

I will sit lame @home as I cant vote .


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## sreevirus (Oct 31, 2008)

Pathik said:


> Sree, but not getting whipped at all won't kick out the people bearing the whip in the first place. Wouldn't it be better if you get whipped once but atleast kick out the whip-bearers.
> 
> Atleast the parties will be forced to field better candidates if there is a majority NO VOTE.


I don't see how. This is a democracy, isn't it? Just as I have been given the right to vote, I also have the right to *not* vote.

Let me put it this way. Suppose there are 9 people, all different, including me, who have the right to vote (or not to vote). We have two parties, Party A and Party B vying for the government.

Party A has an agenda to build a temple, get more jobs for people of some particular region, etc. Party B has plans to give subsidies for pilgrimage to people of some religion, reservation of jobs for a certain sect, etc. Throw in the usual rhetorics like development of the country, industrialization, electrification, blah blah blah... 

5 out of 9 people think Party A will be beneficial for them, so they vote for Party A. 3 out of the remaining 4 think Party B will be effective for them. Now I think that major agendas of both Parties A and B are bullshit and would be consequentially bad later. I don't want either of the Parties to come into power and implement their plans. So where does that leave me? I don't thing any of the people in either parties will be effective leaders and I want neither of those parties to be elected. So I choose to exercise my right to not vote.



mediator said:


> @srivirus : Why don't you give a chance to Shiv Khera as u seem to be frustrated like me and disgusted with the present politicians.


Sorry, but I've never heard of that person. Just read about that party from your link.

-----

BTW, personal opinion: I think both BJP and the Congress are flawed in their own unique ways. I also think the elected leaders should be neutral and not have agendas for the appeasement of the people belonging to a particular religion/caste/sect/region/community. But I guess that can only happen in Utopia. Also, laws made should never be ever influenced by the verses in any religious books. Religion is a person's personal matter, and it should not be something to be taken in the public domain.

I'm an atheist and that makes me non-religious. If parties are going to make laws on what I should eat or how I should live my life according to the terms in a book that I have no belief in, I wouldn't want to vote anyway.


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## esumitkumar (Oct 31, 2008)

^^karnivore ..yes u rite..but can u tell me what knowledge is needed prior to study vedas  

@MADJERI

It seems that u urself are a minority..thats y ur so biased abt ur views 
and second thing man I dont have anything against minority ..

What I want is we should be Indians first irrespective of whats our religion...
Thats y I was even opposing krazzy on that Raj chutzpah ...

Congress is promoting pseudo secularism and u blame BJP is promoting Hindutva..I think u havent read even Muslims vote for Narendra Modi in GJ  
and also being a responsible citizen of India how can you not be intrstd in politics ????? ..U urself has a narrow minded and STUPID thinking ...that Congress is promoting the peace in India ..see the peace results..Why all terrorist organisations are exploding bombs everywhere in UPA regime if they are happy that Congress takes well care of Muslims ??? 

and ya Im never trampled by minority , may be ur trampled by some majority eh in past ? I have many Muslim close frnds and they are my frnds .. I go to their home @ Eid and they come to my home @ Holi and Diwali and we all have lots of fun . I dont need to prove it to anybody !

and u saying wats done in 60 years ??..remember all the major 55 years were ruled by Congress 

@T159..which is duty and which is freedom ? BJP= duty , Cong= Freedom or the other way ? 

@nix..have u read in Obama's web about Immigration ? Read it 
*www.barackobama.com/issues/immigration/

I am a big supporter of OBAMA ..at least Pak sponsored terrorism will be less than


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## mediator (Oct 31, 2008)

@karnivore : U must understand how much destruction has been done during the mughal period and the Bitish era to the Vedas, temples, women raped, people slaughtered and converted. With so much to witness any Hindu would fume! But I don't know if thats the reason he had such a 'diatribe against Islam and Christianity'. Hindus have forgottten all that. But to this date, mistranlations, false notions etc about the Hindu scriptures are still looming at large! After discussing with you & @srivirus, I came to know that such distortions exist. I thought 'sacred-texts.com' is reliable. Many today still think its reliable. People like Zakir Nair inferring the sanskrit word 'MohMaghda' as "Mohammed" and thinking "Mohemmed" is mentioned in Hindu scriptures. Little he knows that "MohMaghda" means one who is "materialistic" and "has surrendered to worldy pleasures". The situation becomes more grave when others use such a definition to show how inferior other religion is compared to their own. If you know Sanskrit then you would understand the rulez behind, how scientific it is. Its not like English where one word can have an ambigious meaning, "you" can mean someone of same age, younger or elder or generating some respect. In Sanskrit, even a "vibhakti", "chin" or "halanth" can change the meaning of the word completely. It would be useless if you play a critic of Vedas without knowing anything about Sanskrit in the first place. You were putting up the slokas that were mistranslated by christian missionaries. Now you have grudge against "Dawananda Saraswati" just because he had something against ISLAM or christianity & was calling for Vedas? 

Its not a question of being biased, but, the correct translation of the slokas. I beg to differ. The translation can be perfect!! But if and only if you know sanskrit well enough. I used to be a Sanskrit Student and thats why I can proudly tell you all of this. If you learn some Sanskrit sometime, then try urself with Zakir nair's work as an exercise! You'll urself find many errors easily. I think the main issue with you is of translation. So what can you do? Still criticize the Vedas? But if you look in the link I gave, you'll find where the error is and in what part! 

So I think its better to stop criticizing and learn ourself what is really written and may be then, perhaps, we can criticize on whats written. Some help from a Sankrit scholar would be nice. Don't u think so? We shouldn't let the mistranlations and damages go to another new higher level. 

Neways, even if some beef eating were to be mentioned and that sacrifices were done to please some demigods, then also I would have questioned it and considered it outdated. Just like "science", I don't consider Vedas "free of errors"! But the destruction, as  discussed, has to stop. I agree that its not wise to derail it any further. So lets stop and discuss this thread shall we?? 

@srivirus : He is the author of the bestseller "You can win".......a must read for everybody !!!


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## nix (Oct 31, 2008)

@esumitkumar: every candidate is supposed to say that he opposes illegal immigration, but you cant deny the fact they are skirting the issue. you also cant deny the fact that, concrete steps are not being taken to secure US borders. there's is little talk and zero action on that issue.

i think that way mitt romney would be a better person to be president of US.


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## esumitkumar (Oct 31, 2008)

^^hmm..but I had read in "USA Today" some days ago that illegal immigration in US had decreased as compared to prev year ??? 

Also can u enlighten that suppose Mr A frm Mexico illegaly enters US..how does he find job ? cuz every employer in US wants work visa ? how can he do any job and live here illegally ?


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## anispace (Oct 31, 2008)

^^ they dont get white collar jobs dude. They work as servants, butlers, cooks, car mechanics and other such low profile jobs.


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## karnivore (Oct 31, 2008)

esumitkumar said:
			
		

> ...can u tell me what knowledge is needed prior to study vedas


Nothing really. But if you don't want to read translations, then you have to know sanskrit - thoroughly. Even then you will be reading some translation or the other - from vedic sanskrit to classical sanskrit. But translating vedic texts is a different ball game, because, the language in which these are written is not the classical sanskrit that you learn in high school.

Panini was the one who laid down the first rules of sanskrit which went through correction by Sayana. Over time, sanskrit acquired various regional loan words and took the shape that it is today. (May be I should mention here, that Mahbharata and Ramayana are written in a language that appears a little different than Paninian sanskrit, because of the use of prakrit). When Panini was laying these rules, many of the rules of grammar that governed vedic sanskrit were dead due to non use. Use of many foreign loan words had, by that time, vanished from lexicon, leaving blank spaces within the vedic verses.

Current day scholars, when they attempt to translate these vedic verses, they do not solely depend on Paninian rules. They have to look around into the then contemporary texts or languages. Avestan and Mittani have strong influence on sanskrit. Previously these linguistic connections were not that well known, or for some reason ignored. No longer. That is why I would suggest one to use recent translations. Griffit, Monier-Williams, Wilson, Bloomfield etc are all outdated. No serious scholar uses them in any serious acedamic way.

@mediator

I do agree with you that Indian history has, unfortunately, never got the serious objective attention that it deserved, at least till mid 50s to early 60s. There have been wrong or eronous interpretations, intentional or otherwise, of texts. The problem is, then it used to be the western scholars, and now it is our home grown scholars. 

Now Zakier Nair is an example of intentional misinterpretation and frankly, I don't give a rodent's behind to what that moron says about anything. (His work on Islamic texts are however pretty good). I will only politely ask you to stay away from Zakir Nair. He is not an authority on sanskrit and is certainly not on vedas. 

I have said this before, and I will say this again. We can't use today's sanskrit to interpret 2000+ years old sanskrit. This is because of something called period bias that results from the evolution of language. I will give one example. The word "_samudra_" today means ocean. But in vedic verses it is used not only as ocean, but also as collection of lakes and also a "heavenly sea". (There was a huge controversy, just on the interpretation of this word)

One more thing. I don't criticize vedas. I criticize those, who deliberately twist facts and use the excuse of vedas for their purpose.


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## anispace (Nov 1, 2008)

@esumitkumar

Well if u think BJP is that great and firm against Terrorism why couldnt they stop the bomb blasts in Gujarat and Karnataka where they are in power. 

Dont give this crap about Congress being soft on terror. 

BJP is the one who is dividing and instigating the people with their Hindutva crap. Its they who started all this mess with the Gujarat riots in 2002. Were there any Bomb blasts and other such attacks on major Indian cities before 2002. Terrorism in Kashmir is a different issue so dont point that out.


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## esumitkumar (Nov 1, 2008)

> Dont give this crap about Congress being soft on terror


this really shows how much u know abt Congress anti terror measures  
Congress is not really soft on terror but fully lethargic abt it..What was the need for removing POTA ? Just to get minorty votes ! 



> why couldnt they stop the bomb blasts in Gujarat and Karnataka where they are in power


My question is why couldnt Congress stop the bomb blasts in DELHI, ASSAM,MUMBAI ????? if they are so hard on terrorists  ..Why arent they expelling MH govt for not able to control race hatred crimes incited by Raj ???


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## ancientrites (Nov 1, 2008)

@anispace : No use bro these ppl want to make this country a hindutva.ofcourse it wont happen, muslims and christians in karnataka have realized that they made a blunder by voting BJP.
  hindu taliban didnt even spare crucifix inside the church in mangalore.


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## mediator (Nov 1, 2008)

@karnivore : I understand. But neways, my little understanding of word "samudra" is a "sea". For everything greater there is "maha" prepended, like "mahadev" meaning a great "dev", "mahasagar", "a very great sea" or an ocean, "mahayug" etc etc! Here also a "chin" would twist the word to "mahan" meaning "respectable"!! 

I agree that its not good to twist facts and use the excuse of vedas. But what can they do and what can we do? We don't have straight answers and are living in ignorance, some exaggerating and some spreading that ignorance and many don't even feel like removing their misconceptions!! 

@ancientrites : Whats wrong in hindutva if u can have sharia implemented? U already have muslim quota, reservation and what not? So if u wanna oppose Hindutva do that equally and oppose minority reservation,sharia and all as well. So much for equality for all!


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## anispace (Nov 1, 2008)

@esumitkumar
Ok so for ur sake lets say Congress is soft on terror and couldnt stop bomb blasts in delhi and assam. Then just explain why BJP couldnt stop blasts in Gujarat and karnataka.

The fact remains that both the BJP and the Congress are corrupt and lacking of the leadership abilities that could transform India into a superpower. But we dont have much choice as to which party is better to rule India.

Just look at the alternatives>>
BSP.... ::

CPI..... a branch of the Chinese govt in India.


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## esumitkumar (Nov 1, 2008)

> hindu taliban didnt even spare crucifix inside the church in mangalore.


wow..and Muslims didnt do anything ????..Mughal Talibans have done forceful conversions of Hindus to Muslims, Babur had destroyed many temples and Aurangzeb..what can i say ..just read some history !

Also leave the past..what Taliban had done in Afghanistan ..breaking all the giant and historical statues of Buddha !!!!   

@mediator ----> ++1 

@anispace this debate was started which party is better ? How BJP can improve suddenly all the s**t that Congress has spilled in 55 years ? and regd terrorists they have mainly targetted BJP ruled states and u already know why ??

BJP states have also had to coordinate with Central Govt ..They cant seal GJ and KA borders 

now tell me how many bomb blasts had happened in 1999-2004 BJP regime ???

Just give them 10 years and see !


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## anispace (Nov 1, 2008)

wow .... awesome justification. Instead of condemning such acts ur actually justifying them. What the Taliban did and are doing in Afghanistan is wrong. 

What these Hindu fanatics are doing isnt justifiable by anymeans. Killing innocent people in the name of religion isnt what Hinduism is about. What do u think the gods would be happy and give us their  blessings becoz we built temples for them by razing mosques and churches and killing innocent people.


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## esumitkumar (Nov 1, 2008)

^^^well can u count me and tell how many people hindu fanatics had killed and how many muslim terrorists had killed till date ????? 

Also I am not justfying ..I m just opening ur eyes that see other side of coin too ....!


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## karnivore (Nov 1, 2008)

esumitkumar said:
			
		

> ...can u count me and tell how many people hindu fanatics had killed and how many muslim terrorists had killed till date ?????


It seems that since the hindus did not go on a rampage in the past, killing and converting thousands, it somehow justifies all atrocities TODAY. Does it ? Now don't say you are not justifying. You very well know you are.

No sane person likes the idea of Hindutva, because it preaches the "Tit TODAY for YESTERDAY'S tat" motto.


			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Whats wrong in hindutva if u can have sharia implemented? U already have muslim quota, reservation and what not? So if u wanna oppose Hindutva do that equally and oppose minority reservation,sharia and all as well. So much for equality for all!


The entire Sharia is not applicable. Only the portions that deal with marriage, property rights, inheritance, etc i.e. which are collectively called CIVIL CODE are applicable. Hindus don't have an equivalent of Sharia. However, on the basis of Hindu philosophy, equivalent laws e.g. Hindu Marriage Act, Hindu Undivided Family Act etc. have been enacted. So I guess we are on equal footing.

I am not aware of any muslim quota, other than the one in Andra, temporarily allowed by SC. On the contrary, the quota / reservation system is based on Hindu concept of caste. But thats a different can of worms.

But it is really a sad situation when I see young intelligent people can't see through the shenanigans of these political parties. For Congress it is APPEASEMENT of the minority, while for BJP it is APPEASEMENT of the majority. When will we think of our social issues ? 

*sigh*


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## anispace (Nov 1, 2008)

^^+1




esumitkumar said:


> ^^^well can u count me and tell how many people hindu fanatics had killed and how many muslim terrorists had killed till date ?????
> 
> Also I am not justfying ..I m just opening ur eyes that see other side of coin too ....!



Other side of the coin. What r u a 5 yr old kid? Ok so Hitler killed a million or more jews. So now Israel should attack Germany and kill a million Germans right. No one should interfere right coz jews have suffered becoz of one German man(he was actually Austrian) so now they have the right to kill Germans.


See thats what is the problem with our country. You would think educated people would have a broad outlook and wouldnt get swayed by this religious bigotry propogated by the politicians to strengthen their vote banks. But its the other way round.

I guess our crappy education system is to be blamed for this mess. And its not just one person. I have many friends in Engineering who are just as ignorant about such issues.


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## esumitkumar (Nov 1, 2008)

^^^hooohooo ....seems ur a 95 yr old dadaji . If ur advice was followed by Bush, he would had surrendered US to Talibans saying please we need more attacks like 9/11 ...kill us continuously and we will not bomb Afghanistan anyways 

im not saying if u kill x no of persons of one community..other should kill equal no ..I m saying u only see so called non existing hindu taliban and u r blind to see terrorists (99.9 % of them are Muslims)

what I want in my India is development . I dont want any Mandir,Masjid,Reservation,bomb blasts etc etc and only BJP can do that..Its better than Congress ...anytime if not the best ...


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## anispace (Nov 1, 2008)

arey u imbecile, you really seem to be an ignorant person. Your stupid examples make me laugh Dont u understand what i am saying.

USA attacked the Taliban not the people of Afghanistan. Thats totally different.These so called Hindu fanatics are attacking innocent people. 

If they really have the guts go to the root and dig out some information about Indian Mujahideen and other such organisations and kill them. Thats what America did, attack the Taliban. 

If they were to think like u they should have slaughtered all innocent afghanis in USA.

ps. ok no more arguing with u. I might get banned in the process as i am gonna loose my head now if i read any more of ur senseless posts.


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## esumitkumar (Nov 1, 2008)

and u r a airhead   

ur a pro muslim chauvinist who wudnt listen any argument against ur biased thinking !!!

main yeh keh raha tha ki agar Bush tumhari baat maan leta to woh taliban pe kabhi attack nahin karta ...aur is attack main if he sees ki bombing main innocent Afghanis bhi maare jayenge ..to woh humanitarian angle se soch ke kabhi attack nahin karta

but its gud he is not like that !

dekho bhai saaf saaf baat hai ek macchli saare talaab ko ganda karti hai...agar talibans ne 9/11 kiya..to saare Afghanistan ko bhugatna hee padega !

There is a old hindi saying "Genhoo (wheat) k saath Ghun (lice)  bhi pistaa (grind)  hai "

If Pak terrorists nuke Delhi/Mumbai ..India will also have to nuke Karachi/Islamabad...India cant say ki bhai pakis... koi baat nahi..tumne humare innocent citizens ko maar diya ..no worries..hum tumhare innocent citizens ko nahin maarenge  

HOpe at least u understand HINDI 

ok PEACE !

To WHOMSOEVER whining abt Hindu terrorists (Malegaon Blasts) :

"MUMBAI: *The brain mapping test conducted on Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur, an accused in the latest Malegaon blast, at the state forensic lab showed that she was not lying during the forensic tests, said sources. *

*timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Sadhvi...gives_her_clean_chit_/articleshow/3660534.cms

woohoooooooo  

and still Its gud to see intelligent digitians voting for BJP - 21 rather than  Cong-8 

Also wat u all have to say about this ? Hasnt Tauqueer killed 56 innocent Indians in Assam ? and our PM is saying we will talk to Bangladesh and PAK even after so many blasts ..wah CONGRESS wah    

Is he also a HINDU TALIBAN ????? 

*Tauqeer hand in Assam blasts too?*

GUWAHATI: Security agencies probing the Assam serial blasts have come across 

names of two top jihadis — Tauqeer and Jehangir — in messages 
intercepted in the 
past two days. Some of these messages — congratulatory in nature — had originated from two neighbouring countries, the intelligence sources said. 

The name of Tauqeer had surfaced in a big way after the recent blasts in Mumbai, Delhi and Ahmedabad, though the security forces were not sure if it was the same Tauqeer. Abdus Subhan Qureshi, also known as Tauqeer, has been close to Student Islamic Movement of India (SIMI) and was on the radar of Mumbai police after the serial train blasts in July 2006. He was also a suspect in the blasts in Ahmedabad and Delhi. The second person, Jehangir, is now believed to be in Bangladesh.


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## alexanderthegreat (Nov 2, 2008)

^^OK, Mr. Imbecile and Mr. airhead, Why are you guys acting like politicians? Don't you guys understand that Terrorism has no religion. None at all! Whether its the Taliban, ISF-IM, SIMI, Al Quaeda, or any group, they are neither Muslims, nor Hindus! They are terrorists!

Next, why are you guys abusing the hell out of each other(Airhead and Imbecile, really!) as if you guys are accusing each other of being a member of the concerned terrorist group? airhead... um.. I mean.. anispace is not the leader of IM, nor does imbe... I mean esumitkumar belong to some Hindu Taliban(is that really a group?

@anispace: I support your statement about the lack of abilities of both of the concerned parties to deal effectively with terrorism. I reckon India needs something like a secret organization to deal with these things(RAW(is that the one?) should wake up and smell the coffee)



esumitkumar said:


> If Pak terrorists nuke Delhi/Mumbai ..India will also have to nuke Karachi/Islamabad...India cant say ki bhai pakis... koi baat nahi..tumne humare innocent citizens ko maar diya ..no worries..hum tumhare innocent citizens ko nahin maarenge



And get reprimanded by the UN for breach of World Peace? Dude, I'd advice you NOT to ever become the Defece Minister . Look at what happened to the US's reputation after they bombed Pakistan with unmanned flyers(I'd like to get one of those!)! And that should be "tumhare country ke terroriston ne hamare innocent..."


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## karnivore (Nov 2, 2008)

esumitkumar said:
			
		

> *The brain mapping test conducted on Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur, an accused in the latest Malegaon blast, at the state forensic lab showed that she was not lying during the forensic tests, said sources. *


I guess this is where we all shave our arse, do our hail-BJP salute and start our victory lap ?


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## esumitkumar (Nov 2, 2008)

@alexander..I havent started these abuse words..u can urself see anispace started using Imbecile, Stupid etc insult words..so I have to retaliate obviously 

Also why not an eye for an eye law ??? ...if Pak nukes us..we will not nuke them just because we fear UN..hahhaaaaaa..ur speaking like our PM Manmohan  

wat had UN done to US ??? US had bombed Afghanistan, Iraq and now eyeing Iran....UN is just a nautanki .....nothing else !


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## mediator (Nov 2, 2008)

No u shudn't retaliate! Even a mosquito bites u, u shud become a Gandhi and start non-violence movement there. Thats what makes Gandhi a hero and Bhagat Singh a terrorist in History books, I guess. Its a 'national shame' when collateral damage takes place with retaliatory attack on the so called 'minorities' and not even a case/issue when 'kashmiri pandits' are thrown out, raped, converted and slaughtered!

Golden rule for majority:
1. Shed the human nature of retaliation.
2. Ignore if others convert
3. Ignore the past
4. Understand that equality means privileges for minorities!
5. Ignore if the scriptures are being deliberately distorted.
6. etc etc


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## khurana_rishabh (Dec 9, 2008)

Hello ppl. I am new to this debat. Politics was never my cup of tea. But recently I have started following up it and I would like to know where we can see achievements of UPA govt


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## esumitkumar (Dec 9, 2008)

u bumped the thread ..read this thread carefully from start and then throw ur opinions


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## 4T7 (Dec 9, 2008)

For me Congress>BJP and communism ftw!


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## esumitkumar (Dec 9, 2008)

hmm so u support communism ? support China ?


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## 4T7 (Dec 9, 2008)

esumitkumar said:


> hmm so u support communism ? support China ?


Yeah Chinese govt. is cool


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## esumitkumar (Dec 9, 2008)

do u know in China there are still undeveloped villages and towns except SHANGHAI , BEIJING ETC ETC


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## Anorion (Dec 9, 2008)

esumitkumar said:


> pro muslim chauvinist



That's the funniest and most disturbing thing I have read in a long long time.


==humble opinion alert==

All of mankind has been indulging in atrocities on other humans throughout history, and this has nothing to do with religion. Religion is just an excuse, and a bad one at that. Look at the way Hindus treated those of a lesser caste, and women. Look at the way Muslim men still treat women. The christians were so bad, they burnt free thinking women as witches. But also look at the way men treat women worldwide - which has nothing to do with religion, or the rich treat the poor, or the business class treat the working class... most of these atrocities are by people with power who want to retain power, dictators, feudal lords, policemen, the clergy, politicians... and even the odd teacher or parent having a go at children. 

The US gave Afghanistan weapons to fight against the Russians in the mid eighties... then the same things came back to haunt them. And why not? The Afghans are a fiercly independant people, minding their own affairs, caught between two big giants - they never asked for any of this. 

Its sad that we put all the blame on Muslims, and Pakistan and whatnot. Do all Brahmins suffer the stigma of looking down on the Harijans? Do all Christans bear the stigma of converting the entire continent of Africa? No... if anything, the Hindus still look down on them, and the Vatican is happy for its strong footholds in Africa. Then why should all Muslims or Pakis bear the stigma of producing terrorists? They are also fighting for something, a losing war perhaps, they have an agenda, and no one is taking any notice of them because of their methods. They are honest, and transparent. It is a widely acknowledged fact that the CIA is a much bigger and much more subtler terrorist organisation - and no one says a thing against them. What did they do when they came here? They came, took the intelligence, collected the evidence, researched the methods, and went away, without helping the Indians one bit. The press is brainwashing the world against the taliban and fundamentalist muslims in the same way that the world was brainwashed against communism - by breeding a deep and intense hate. You don't know exactly what they are fighting for - and there is a reason for that.


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## 4T7 (Dec 10, 2008)

esumitkumar said:


> do u know in China there are still undeveloped villages and towns except SHANGHAI , BEIJING ETC ETC


Do you know China is far ahead from India?


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## karnivore (Dec 10, 2008)

Anorion said:
			
		

> All of mankind has been indulging in atrocities on other humans throughout history, and this has nothing to do with religion.


  Really. Atrocities – of course not all – have nothing to do with religion ? Do the words "Inquisition", "Crusade" and "Jihad" ring a bell.


			
				Anorion said:
			
		

> Look at the way Hindus treated those of a lesser caste, and women. Look at the way Muslim men still treat women. The christians were so bad, they burnt free thinking women as witches. But also look at the way men treat women worldwide - which has nothing to do with religion, or the rich treat the poor, or the business class treat the working class... most of these atrocities are by people with power who want to retain power, dictators, feudal lords, policemen, the clergy, politicians... and even the odd teacher or parent having a go at children.


  You almost got it. But then, lost it. Misogynists treating women bad or rich treating poor as vermin has indeed, nothing to do with religion. But women being branded as witches or pagans as evil and then they being roasted alive are religious acts and nothing else. Klu-Klux-Klan lynching blacks or Al-Quada blowing up a couple of buildings is still a religious act. Makbul Fida Hussain being persecuted by Hindu fanatics or Taslima Narsin, by the Islamic fundamentalists, is indeed a religious act (although politics play a major role).

  Religion provides the motivation and in more ways than one, legitimizes the acts of a psychopath. 


			
				Anorion said:
			
		

> Its sad that we put all the blame on Muslims, and Pakistan and whatnot. Do all Brahmins suffer the stigma of looking down on the Harijans? Do all Christans bear the stigma of converting the entire continent of Africa? No... if anything, the Hindus still look down on them, and the Vatican is happy for its strong footholds in Africa. Then why should all Muslims or Pakis bear the stigma of producing terrorists? They are also fighting for something, a losing war perhaps, they have an agenda, and no one is taking any notice of them because of their methods. They are honest, and transparent. It is a widely acknowledged fact that the CIA is a much bigger and much more subtler terrorist organisation - and no one says a thing against them. What did they do when they came here? They came, took the intelligence, collected the evidence, researched the methods, and went away, without helping the Indians one bit. The press is brainwashing the world against the taliban and fundamentalist muslims in the same way that the world was brainwashed against communism - by breeding a deep and intense hate. You don't know exactly what they are fighting for - and there is a reason for that.


  By calling their acts of terrorism as fights for a cause, you have in one stroke not only condoned the Talibans, the Lashker-e-Toibas, the Jaish-e-Mohammads and everything in between, but insulted every single person who has ever fought for some genuine cause. You have now effectively put the likes of Martin Luther King and Gandhi on the same plane as these outfits. Genius. 

  It is true, blaming all the Muslims for Islamic terrorism is absurd. Blaming all Pakistani people for breeding Islamic terrorists is equally absurd. But unfortunately, all terrorists are Muslims and almost every terrorist act has somehow, its roots in Pakistan. The Pakistani military is hand in glove with these terrorist outfits and the political class (or crass ?) simply turns a blind eye. If these are not good enough reasons for the international media to project Pakistan as a terrorist breeding ground, I am not sure if anything will ever be.

And can you please give examples of how the press is brainwashing "against the taliban and fundamentalist muslims".



4T7 said:


> Do you know China is far ahead from India?



So...


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## Anorion (Dec 10, 2008)

@Karnivore
I said religion was a bad excuse. There were personal reasons for the atrocities like the crusades or jihad... though not atrocities in the eyes of everyone. These are just extremely violent forms of politics. I am not condoning the activites of anybody, just saying that we have no understanding of their motivations. Remember that Bhagat Singh was a terrorist. 

All I am really saying is that there is an Akbar for every Aurangazeb.


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## esumitkumar (Dec 10, 2008)

yaaro kitna accha hota agar koi religion na hota ...no religion no caste no reservation no fighting ..par yeh sab sachhai main nahin hoga


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## axxo (Dec 10, 2008)

BJP anyday.
Congress is good for nothing except for alliance with parties that support terrorism.


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## Anorion (Dec 10, 2008)

esumitkumar said:


> yaaro kitna accha hota agar koi religion na hota ...no religion no caste no reservation no fighting ..par yeh sab sachhai main nahin hoga



+1

Its true that we need some kind of glue for the society to keep it away from Anarchy, but religion is not the answer. Humanity and compassion is the answer, if not, then common sense is a simpler answer. Religion is a big delusion, and if anyone wants to follow one, it should be a private matter, in the confines of their own home, or if possible, in their own heads.


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## vish786 (Dec 10, 2008)

this was the only undiscussed topic so far... 

LMAO!!!


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## esumitkumar (Dec 10, 2008)

^^ but everybody is not literate like us n there are 10000s of ppl jinki roji roti dharm k naam pe hee chal rahi hai ..be it hindus,maulvis or christian protagonists  

har koi apna ullu seedha kar raha hai


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## Faun (Dec 10, 2008)

esumitkumar said:


> har koi apna ullu seedha kar raha hai


lol...sahi kaha re


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## satyamy (Dec 10, 2008)

well ????????????? 
mood toh nahi hai par
as we know both are chooorrr
As compared to BJP, Cong. is a well developed & Strong Choor Party 
so vote for small choor
BJP


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## nix (Dec 11, 2008)

@anorion: most of africa is now muslim.


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## thepirateboy (Dec 11, 2008)

axxo said:


> BJP anyday.
> Congress is good for nothing except for alliance with parties that support terrorism.


lol wasnt it BJP who released the terrorists during kandhar hijacking ???


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## anispace (Dec 11, 2008)

thepirateboy said:


> lol wasnt it BJP who released the terrorists during kandhar hijacking ???



yup. They even tried to milk the terrorist attacks in Mumbai to win votes in Raj and Delhi. Well they failed and got their asses kicked 3:2. Luckily it seems they have a good CM in MP so congress got its ass kicked over there. 

This multiparty system in India is a total failure. We need to implement the President system in India like the US. Vote for a good candidate. Only then can we come out of this mess and become a true superpower.



> @nix
> most of africa is now muslim.



and your point is?


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## vasanth.kingofthehill (Dec 11, 2008)

Politicians are a bunch of thugs: period :.And wats de use of reservation when all the guys studying subsidized education end up working for uncle sam or some other country


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## axxo (Dec 11, 2008)

thepirateboy said:


> lol wasnt it BJP who released the terrorists during kandhar hijacking ???



dont u watch in cinemas? If villain threatens a hostage with knife, hero has to drop the gun.

What does this to do with congress alliance with terroirist supporting south minoriy parties like dmk, etc...anyone going to die if they are apart?


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## nix (Dec 12, 2008)

i was actually referring to anorion's post on the 1st page...


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## INS-ANI (Dec 12, 2008)

But its not DIGIT member vote that will count. We are the class of people, who are not a vote bank, and most of us don't even vote.

beside b/w BJP and CNG..its a tough choice. one is ass and another a hole.


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## anispace (Dec 12, 2008)

INS-ANI said:


> But its not DIGIT member vote that will count. We are the class of people, who are not a vote bank, and most of us don't even vote.
> 
> beside b/w BJP and CNG..its a tough choice. one is ass and another a hole.



+1

@axxo
The BJP led NDA govt had badly messed up the situation during the 99 Kandahar hijack. They had an opportunity to capture the plane from the hijackers twice when it was still in India. But they still let it go to Afghanistan. Watch the documentary. It was on NGC i think.


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## vish786 (Dec 13, 2008)

anispace said:


> +1
> 
> @axxo
> The BJP led NDA govt had badly messed up the situation during the 99 Kandahar hijack. They had an *opportunity* to capture the plane from the hijackers twice when it was still in India. But they still let it go to Afghanistan. Watch the documentary. It was on NGC i think.



Opportunity ? How many hours do you think plane landed in India ? they landed for fuel. They had already warned by killing one hostage in Amritsar(who had gone for honeymoon to kathmandu and wife didnt even know that her husband was dead until plane arrived back to India) Now imagine if BJP(Well you idiot its not BJP's fault since it was in power @ that time, do you blame Congress for the Terror happened in Mumbai recently?!) Again, if a severe action was taken by attacking them these would lead to more death of hostages while the opposition would blame BJP for causing the deaths of innocent hostages since BJP was ruling & if Congress was ruling at that time  would you blame congress for it?? 

Stop wining when you dont know what exactly is going on or else stfu and try to analyse the complex situation completely with different strategies then you can put forth your VIEWS!!

I was avoiding this thread cause of ignorant replies and your crappy post right from beginning made me post this.. you retarded fool. 

Ignorance is Annoying & you trying to be a `I know All` smartass had crossed the limits of annoying


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## Aberforth (Dec 13, 2008)

Personally, I support neither. Both BJP and Congress are different piles of the same garbage that Indian politics is. Neither the BJP, nor the Congress have any magical talisman to transform India into an utopia. 



esumitkumar said:


> # A Ban on Cow Slaughter, to honor the Hindu tradition of deeming cows and most cattle as sacred, and prohibiting the consumption of beef and pork.


I thought India was a secular and democratic country, not a fascist Hindu-Taliban state. If I want to consume beef and pork, it is my imperative, not that of the government. The government needs to address more serious issues than trying to dictate meat eating habits of non-Hindus.



swatkat said:


> However for the time being, India needs POTA+Modi to cleanup things....


Yeah, organising ethnic genocides is the best way to clean up things. Because suicide bombers are really concerned about what law they are going to be tried in. 



esumitkumar said:


> Have u ever seen Pakistan's state of Affairs ? How Hindu minority is living there ? How free are they to practice their religion and worship ?


Pakistan is a mess. An irreparable mess. If the BJP holds India's reins and gets its inspiration from Pakistan, then I'd feel sorry for India's future.



Anorion said:


> Whatever happened to the hammer and the sickle?


It rarely sells, because Laissez-Faire capitalists can package their ideas into more colourful and attractive wrappings. The propaganda is so successful that people ignore the bland product underneath.



Anorion said:


> Democracy works only in a country where the entire population is educated and well informed. Fat chance of that between the govt and the media.


Exactly. Democracy in India is dictated by the law of "government by the idiots, for the idiots and of the idiots". Hence, it is in the interests of our political overlords to keep the voting public in the shackles of idiocy and/or poverty.


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## Infernal12 (Dec 13, 2008)

Neither is my opinion. What India needs is a young vibrant leadership, capable of fast decisions, and most importantly, which learns from its mistakes.


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## anispace (Dec 14, 2008)

vish786 said:


> Opportunity ? How many hours do you think plane landed in India ? they landed for fuel. They had already warned by killing one hostage in Amritsar(who had gone for honeymoon to kathmandu and wife didnt even know that her husband was dead until plane arrived back to India) Now imagine if BJP(Well you idiot its not BJP's fault since it was in power @ that time, do you blame Congress for the Terror happened in Mumbai recently?!) Again, if a severe action was taken by attacking them these would lead to more death of hostages while the opposition would blame BJP for causing the deaths of innocent hostages since BJP was ruling & if Congress was ruling at that time  would you blame congress for it??
> 
> Stop wining when you dont know what exactly is going on or else stfu and try to analyse the complex situation completely with different strategies then you can put forth your VIEWS!!
> 
> ...



read this u ignorant moron>>
How Govt lost the IC-814 hijack deal
And see the documentary. 

And yes the Maharashtra govt is to be blamed for the Mumbai attacks. The point I was making was that the BJP is no better and the Mumbai attacks would have happened irrespective of the govt in power.


And whats with these abuses.If you want to make a point, talk properly. Such language just makes u sound like a retard. And as u mentioned plz stay away from posting in this debate.


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## esumitkumar (Dec 14, 2008)

hmm..so it seems ppl are not satisfied by Congress neither BJP..So whats the answer ?? communism ?? CPI and CPM are bas*ards in India ..........

Should we all form a communist party whose main motto is development irrespective of caste,sex,religion and all that crap ???


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## Mystic (Dec 14, 2008)

Communism isn't the solution. Isn't that will too be controlled by these fu-ktards?
And please, take a look at the Chinese people not just the development, they have no freedom of speech. At least at the moment we can say what we want to.



			
				esumitkumar said:
			
		

> Should we all form a communist party whose main motto is development irrespective of caste,sex,religion and all that crap ???



OR form a democratic party whose main motto would be development irrespective of caste, sex, religion and all that crap. 

Democracy is fine, the people who make it a bad example will still exists despite if the system is communist or whatever. They, and we - average Indian, are the one that need to be changed. And you know what exactly I meant by the average Indian.

Presidential rule might be a option, but that's another story.

But honestly, whatever, I don't see any hope. Wish if I, personally, was in the state of doing something.


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## Anorion (Dec 14, 2008)

Communism is a highly misunderstood and fragmented ideology. You don't need much to destroy an ideology, just half a century worth of Reader's Digest articles bashing communism is enough to do it - but there was much more propoganda. The communist parties are all involved in in-fighting about what the ideology is, and therefore cannot put up a presentable front for themselves. It basically means two things. 
1) No god
2) Rule of the working class
It just means that everyone is equal, that there is no omnipotent authority over us, and that all the resources we have (including intellect and expertise) belong to everyone and should be shared. That's it. What the parties say, I don't know, and I don't care to know.
I don't support what is called communism now a days. But I support the right of the farmer and the wage worker to have a say. Democracy does not give them this power, because you need money to form a party, and these folks don't have it. Like it or not, there is a very distinct class stratification in our society. If the resources are shared, and the economy were not to be based on resource hoarding, everyone would have more. 
India took a major step forward when it refused to join the capitalists or the communists, and decided to go for being socialist. IT just did not continue down that road.


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## karnivore (Dec 15, 2008)

> Communism is a highly misunderstood and fragmented ideology.


With all due respect, the misunderstanding is in your mind.


> You don't need much to destroy an ideology, just half a century worth of Reader's Digest articles bashing communism is enough to do it - but there was much more propoganda.


Wrong. If propaganda can get the best of an ideology, it does not speak too highly of the ideology. Besides, can you give me some examples of propaganda, as in hearsay/rumour/false flags that were propagated as fact to demean communism. 


> It basically means two things.
> 1) No god
> 2) Rule of the working class
> It just means that everyone is equal, that there is no omnipotent authority over us, and that all the resources we have (including intellect and expertise) belong to everyone and should be shared.


So you do not know what communism is all about. Good.


> But I support the right of the farmer and the wage worker to have a say. Democracy does not give them this power, because you need money to form a party, and these folks don't have it.


Even, democracy escapes your understanding. Double goodie.


> If the resources are shared, and the economy were not to be based on resource hoarding, everyone would have more.


Really. How. Care to elaborate. 


> India took a major step forward when it refused to join the capitalists or the communists, and decided to go for being socialist.


Yes, it was a good choice. But it stretched way beyond its expiry date. More than half the problems that we face today are the direct result of that.


> IT just did not continue down that road.


Thank your lucky stars for that.


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## Anorion (Dec 16, 2008)

@Karnivore. 
I don't claim to be an expert in Communism, but I can clarify my stand and some of your questions. The confusion is not in my mind. When I claimed it to be a fragmented and confused ideology, I was referring to two aspects of communism. Its fragmented because there are many branches and derivatives of communism, from marxism, leninism, titoism to maoism. There is no single canonical version of communism, and each party has bent the ideology for its own use. In India itself, there are four major communist parties who are fighting amongst themselves on the basis of ideology alone. That is why I said communism is a fragmented ideology. The confused part of it is a result of this fragmentation, which does not give a clear picture of exactly what communism is to everyone. 
About the propoganda, there is a famous paper that students of the mass media have access to called manufacturing consent. This is basically tells why the mass media indulges in propoganda and how. There are four media "filters" that disallow certain kind of information from appearing the the media, as this would not allow for distribution, circulation or profits.  These filters are ownership, that is nothing negative about the owners, the second filter is advertising, nothing negative about the advertisers, the third filter is sourcing, that is where the information is sourced from (which in turn have the first two filters too), and the fourth filter is flak, that is criticism against the publication, and the final filter is anti-communism. So anti-communist propoganda is a basic necessity of mass media. This is because the whole enviornment where mass media thrives in, as in advertising, different products, things like brand loyalty and consumption (of goods and services, not just food) cannot happen in a communist enviornment. 
Really, look it up, filter whatever you read for yourself, and communism is basically a classless society of human beings sharing everything on earth without a god above. There are forms of communism that accept god, but that's just sissy communism. Bhagat Singh was a communist, who did not believe in God. A lot of Russians were communists who did not believe in God, and the industrial produce back then was great. 
Imagine a society without brands. Say a product like a shirt would be of the same quality for everyone. It would be of the same price. All bags would be of the same quality. This conserves more resources, so that competetors don't have to hoard and waste materials. There would be just a single latest chip or graphic card in the market, without the business of two or more competitors just muddying up the field and giving products of a lower standard than they would have if they had worked together. 

Now the point of democracy. It is great in theory, but not in practice. You cannot keep everyone happy, and say twenty one percent of the people do not vote for the BJP in the next elections, twenty one percent of a billion is still a large number of people, and it does not make sense to ignore their demands. 

Right now the economic system stratifies the people. A car is not just a car, its a status symbol. While four wheels and an engine are there to take people around, there is a class associated with every car, whether it is a maruti, a santro, or a gallardo. The same applies for a phone. If it were all the same, then a lot of wastage would be saved on - all the materials wasted on advertising, all the materials wasted on competing products, all the manpower used pitting designers against each other instead of focussing their energies together. This may not work out for everyone, and it has its flaws, but that's what the idea is, that's what the ideology is. 

I am not saying communism IS the answer for sure, or that it does not have problems. I am just saying that it is heavily misunderstood and people are not open minded about it.


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## khurana_rishabh (Dec 16, 2008)

esumitkumar said:


> hmm..so it seems ppl are not satisfied by Congress neither BJP..So whats the answer ?? communism ?? CPI and CPM are bas*ards in India ..........
> 
> Should we all form a communist party whose main motto is development irrespective of caste,sex,religion and all that crap ???


 
Well.. I have a suggestion.. There should be a law nullifying any election in which the turnout of voters in a constituency is less than 75% ( or something like that) and contestants would be forced to go for re-election.

Implications of such law - 

1. No Vote - bank Politics : Politicians will have to cater the needs of much larger section of people
2. Right to "Not to Vote"

Problems which might come up in the implementation - 

1. Cost of a re-election
2. Passing such bill in LS will be very very tough


So, whatsay people.. any thoughts..


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## karnivore (Dec 17, 2008)

@ Anonrion

  You have presented an extremely simplistic, almost a naïve understanding of communism. Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion.


> When I claimed it to be a fragmented and confused ideology, I was referring to two aspects of communism. Its fragmented because there are many branches and derivatives of communism, from marxism, leninism, titoism to maoism. There is no single canonical version of communism, and each party has bent the ideology for its own use.


  Every single theory, which is subjective to individual interpretations, will have multiple facets. It is inevitable. The theory of communism is not fragmented. Different people have tried to look at it from different perspective, gave it a different spin. I will not bore you with the details of the differences between Marxism and Leninism and Maoism etc. The basic differences are extremely subtle and technical and are mainly about the implementation of MARXISM. Marxism, however, remains at the core of all the so called “fragmentations” . Fragmentations were not the reason why communism waned. Internal inconsistencies and flawed logic resulted in its demise. 


> In India itself, there are four major communist parties who are fighting amongst themselves on the basis of ideology alone.


  The Indian scene is extremely different and it has got nothing to do with communism itself. A faction of the unified CPI wanted to support Congress while another faction did not. This resulted in the split. The CPI(M-L) entered the scene much later and was a freak movement started at Naxalbari.


> About the propoganda, there is a famous paper that students of the mass media have access to called manufacturing consent. This is basically tells why the mass media indulges in propoganda and how. There are four media "filters" that disallow certain kind of information from appearing the the media, as this would not allow for distribution, circulation or profits. These filters are ownership, that is nothing negative about the owners, the second filter is advertising, nothing negative about the advertisers, the third filter is sourcing, that is where the information is sourced from (which in turn have the first two filters too), and the fourth filter is flak, that is criticism against the publication, and the final filter is anti-communism. So anti-communist propoganda is a basic necessity of mass media. This is because the whole enviornment where mass media thrives in, as in advertising, different products, things like brand loyalty and consumption (of goods and services, not just food) cannot happen in a communist enviornment.


  I am well aware of Manufacturing Consent, by Noam Chomskey. But I don’t understand how it is in anyway relevant in this discussion. He was arguing that free press is not necessarily free. And also remember propaganda worked on the other side of the divide as well. If you want to argue that media is the reason for misconstruing communism, it will cut both ways. Let me assure you. People who want to know, they don’t depend solely on one side of a story.



> …communism is basically a classless society of human beings sharing everything on earth without a god above.


  There are many ways that a society can be classified. Wealth is just one of those. Communism probably eliminates class in that sense, but it creates another, more bizarre, more dangerous class – the political class. In other words, it simple switches the mode of classification - the classification, nevertheless, remains. 


> …the industrial produce back then was great. Imagine a society without brands. Say a product like a shirt would be of the same quality for everyone. It would be of the same price. All bags would be of the same quality. This conserves more resources, so that competetors don't have to hoard and waste materials. There would be just a single latest chip or graphic card in the market, without the business of two or more competitors just muddying up the field and giving products of a lower standard than they would have if they had worked together.


  This is nothing but romanticizing about communism. Industrial produce of Russia was never “great”. You are again forgetting competition breeds quality. Without completion, there would be no urgency or need to make better products (Russia, Cuba, Vietnam). And no, altruism doesn’t work, neither does “political consciousness” (Mao).

  Remember those immortal words of Orwell in The Animal Farm, “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”


> Now the point of democracy. It is great in theory, but not in practice. You cannot keep everyone happy, and say twenty one percent of the people do not vote for the BJP in the next elections, twenty one percent of a billion is still a large number of people, and it does not make sense to ignore their demands.


  No one says, democracy is perfect. It is however the lesser of all the evils available. Communism leads to dictatorship and that is the last thing anybody wants. You are forgetting, that in order to hold on to power, the inevitable tyranny follows. Communism on paper is the rule of mass, but in reality it is a rule of few, and in most cases, one. (Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Fiedel )


> Right now the economic system stratifies the people. A car is not just a car, its a status symbol. While four wheels and an engine are there to take people around, there is a class associated with every car, whether it is a maruti, a santro, or a gallardo. The same applies for a phone. If it were all the same, then a lot of wastage would be saved on - all the materials wasted on advertising, all the materials wasted on competing products, all the manpower used pitting designers against each other instead of focussing their energies together. This may not work out for everyone, and it has its flaws, but that's what the idea is, that's what the ideology is.


  Yes, a society with no artificial means of classifying humans is always welcome. But its better to live in reality than to get lost in a pipe dream.


> I am not saying communism IS the answer for sure, or that it does not have problems. I am just saying that it is heavily misunderstood and people are not open minded about it.


  Well, if it is misunderstood then, a whole generation of Russkies, Chinese, East Europeans and Vietnamese were dumb as hell.


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## chooza (Dec 21, 2008)

When we talk about Raj Thakrey, we shouldn't forget His Idol Shiv Sena Supremo, Bala Saheb Thakrey and his "Achievements" in Maharastra. And the BJP is party of Hatered(Remeber Babri Mosque), problem in that the basis on which they come into power, they quickly forgot that. First Ram Mandir(Where it is now), then Mr. Atal Bihari Vajpayee(Recent electins shows, where he is on party's now)When we talk of Gujrat, I think, govt in South are much far better then, Mr. Modi(Bhai, duniya NANo par hi khatam nahi ho jaati)and also please see the working in Rajasthan.BJP just want to coem into power by any mean.I am from Rajasthan and I know the problems we faced for 2 months during gujjar andolan, and we also saw, how top brass of BJP handled that problem.ANother thing, had you ever thought, why all the anti-nation activites happens only when BJP has any Problem or electins are nearby.(Blast in Delhi, Jaipur at the time of Gujjar andolan, and suddenly we found that their are two cars full of explosivein Gujrat, Mumbai attack at te time of Malegaon, Parliament attack at the time of Kandhar)Death of our top cops has come into suspision now. As far as we the citizens of India, let me inform you friends that Rajastahn a only state where the prices of LPG,petrol do not reduced when all india was getting the benefits of price cut by central govt.Yes, the alcohol in our state is very cheap, if one want to....


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## chooza (Dec 26, 2008)

vish786 said:


> Opportunity ? How many hours do you think plane landed in India ? they landed for fuel. They had already warned by killing one hostage in Amritsar(who had gone for honeymoon to kathmandu and wife didnt even know that her husband was dead until plane arrived back to India) Now imagine if BJP(Well you idiot its not BJP's fault since it was in power @ that time, do you blame Congress for the Terror happened in Mumbai recently?!) Again, if a severe action was taken by attacking them these would lead to more death of hostages while the opposition would blame BJP for causing the deaths of innocent hostages since BJP was ruling & if Congress was ruling at that time  would you blame congress for it??
> 
> Stop wining when you dont know what exactly is going on or else stfu and try to analyse the complex situation completely with different strategies then you can put forth your VIEWS!!
> 
> ...



Just see the Documentry on History channel, they had clearly mentined that due to non effectiveness of central govt. the kandhar edisode happened.And what you say about akshardham, when the electins in Gujrat was nearby.Regarding Mumbai, why it happen only during Malegaon? Why every attack on India happens when their is some problem with BJP. Just go and check History.


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## Gigacore (Dec 26, 2008)

+1 for BaJaPa


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## afonofa (Dec 27, 2008)

It's a shame to use the word "neta" for the current batch of Indian politicians. The word neta brings the image of Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose to my mind. Compared to him and all the rest who gave us independence, where do our current politicians stand?? 

After the great start that our opening leaders gave us, the middle order has collapsed pulling the entire team down . Every problem that India is facing today can be backtracked to the politics, infighting, lack of unity & foresight displayed by our _maananiya netas_ (respected leaders). In a crisis when the people of India should be looking to their leaders for inspiration and a display of unity, it is actually the people who are displaying courage and unity and even then our politicians fail to learn.

_rajneeti khelte khelte sab bhool gaye hain ki woh Congress ki sarkar ya BJP ki sarkar nahi, India ki sarkar banane ke liye chune gaye hain._

(playing dirty politics, they have all forgotten that they have been elected not to form a govt. of the congress or bjp, but to form the *Government of INDIA*)


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## jck (Dec 27, 2008)

Religion is truly the root cause of most of the problems we face today


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## Ronnie11 (Dec 30, 2008)

i would seriously vote for congress if advani is running for the pm post...besides modi & prolly vajpayee i cannot think of any other leaders in BJP.They seem highly communal & their allies are worse.Manmohan singh is a good leader to be honest.I do not care how much sonia gandhi influences her decision but atleast they do not seem to be obssessed with power.Manmohan singh is an economist & had introduced various bills like the Indo-US deal & the insurance policy etc which were either blocked by BJP or the retards CPM.I am glad they got rid of CPM(pro chinese a**).He brought it good growth rates & brought in development.I have no complains whatsoever with manmohan.Advani..erm...seriously...BJP is just too communal & with support from shiv sena,VHP...no way...they are bunch of thugs...


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## mediator (Dec 30, 2008)

I agree. I too have no complaints whatsoever with Mr.MMS and Shrimati Sonia maino/gandhi/khan/nehru (audience poll/50-50 ??) Begum who termed Orissa incidence as national shame and don't even acknowledge the plight of Kashmiri Pandits, and the Congress party wooing on "Muslim" Vote in the so called secular INDIA and partnering with people like Laloo, and now even coining he term "Hindu terrorism". Lemme guess, what all terms can be there : Brahmin terrorism, Parsi terrorism, Jain terrorism, atheist terrorism?? 

Not to forget about the uncleared controveries bt the so called "future of INDIA"!

Its funny that people forget history and then act like nothing happened at all. I guess thats why incidences happen & the history repeats itself. I guess its time to boycott both the parties and look towards emerging ones which share the same views as us, people who r  frustrated with vote banks based on religion, exploiting the misery of people and flourishing and nourishing on our blood and wealth!

I guess even 26/11 would have gone unnoticed, if it didn't include foreign casualties, just like the rest i.e delhi blast, srinagar etc etc....list goes on with the subsequent communalisation of the issue in many cases!


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## chooza (Dec 31, 2008)

mediator said:


> I agree. I too have no complaints whatsoever with Mr.MMS and Shrimati Sonia maino/gandhi/khan/nehru (audience poll/50-50 ??) Begum who termed Orissa incidence as national shame and don't even acknowledge the plight of Kashmiri Pandits, and the Congress party wooing on &quot;Muslim&quot; Vote in the so called secular INDIA and partnering with people like Laloo, and now even coining he term &quot;Hindu terrorism&quot;. Lemme guess, what all terms can be there : Brahmin terrorism, Parsi terrorism, Jain terrorism, atheist terrorism??
> 
> Not to forget about the uncleared controveries bt the so called &quot;future of INDIA&quot;!
> 
> ...



 We should not compare Kashmir with any other state of India, as others are not a disputed one.Atleast, Sonia G and MMS bought India from so called "Super power" to "Actual Superpower" and see the declining rate of Inflation and growing purchase power of indian companies,withour govt support, they cant even think of all this, and I m not talking of Mittal, Paul etc. I m talking of Tata, Premji, Narayan Murthy.


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## mediator (Dec 31, 2008)

Like I said, its funny that people forget history and then act like nothing happened at all. You speak like a congress loyalist. Besides, what a "disputed" state has to do with the removal,killing,conversion and rape of Kashmiri Pandits and becoming refugess on their own soil? Ok let me see what shud I talk bt Congress and nehru clan..
1. Anti-Sikh riots? Or is sikhism a "disputed" religion now? 
2. Partition of INDIA? Which is the root cause of INDO-Pak clashes and huge death tolls?
3. Bangladeshi immigration? Why are our "selected" puppet PM and foreign puppeteer afraid to talk on this issue? C'mon we don't pay our taxes so that we can give free medications from govt. hospitals to immigrants who form illegal settlements stealing electricity and water and really nice perks to Paki. patients for free in the name of "bhaichara", many who come here and become mujahedeens and fidayeens and also become part of "muslim" votebanks for a better congress position!!.

Why not give that free aid to our own people and to the poor? 

4. Sorry, for not compiling the complete list!! 

Well if you are so proud of the terms "super power" etc, then I guess its really useless if they can't even stop the huge tolls of their own people. Its like we have muscles & steroids, but seriously diseased from inside!! And come to think of it I guess we all saw lesser terrorist strikes during the NDA time. Don't imagine me as any of these party's supporter. But, its like once a month now in UPA's regime where we see "Breaking News". And regarding inflation, well it seems you are ignoring farmers' suicide.

So don't be so elated by seeing news of "super" to "ultra super", if it can't stop the death toll and the congressies have to run to "Mummy" (Rice) everytime who really acts like a Mummy and tells to act "restraint". I'm not going to reminisce the past for you like a bedtime story teller, but its funny that people forget the wrongs of a party when it does something right during the end of its tenure. So forgiving hun?


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## chooza (Jan 1, 2009)

mediator said:


> Like I said, its funny that people forget history and then act like nothing happened at all. You speak like a congress loyalist. Besides, what a "disputed" state has to do with the removal,killing,conversion and rape of Kashmiri Pandits and becoming refugess on their own soil? Ok let me see what shud I talk bt Congress and nehru clan..
> 1. Anti-Sikh riots? Or is sikhism a "disputed" religion now?
> 2. Partition of INDIA? Which is the root cause of INDO-Pak clashes and huge death tolls?
> 3. Bangladeshi immigration? Why are our "selected" puppet PM and foreign puppeteer afraid to talk on this issue? C'mon we don't pay our taxes so that we can give free medications from govt. hospitals to immigrants who form illegal settlements stealing electricity and water and really nice perks to Paki. patients for free in the name of "bhaichara", many who come here and become mujahedeens and fidayeens and also become part of "muslim" votebanks for a better congress position!!.
> ...



Oh Seriously!!!. R u sufering from loss memory syndrome? did u forgot KARGIL WAR, or PARLIAMENT ATTACK or AKSHARDHAM and so on..... Plz. just check with history before writing anything. And where was that Party when their was attacj on the very peaceful state RAJASTHAN. Now you will say its failure of Central Govt. OK then what you talk about the incidents mentined previously?For Bangladesh Immigrants, why didn't BJP took any acton during their power? Infact, they didn't start any process to resolve this. Yes, they approv the RAMSETU Bridge, and whenin oppositin, they start opposing it. lol.
Whatever their is Congress, but atleast they have their Ageda from last several years, Its not like BJP that one time, RAM, another time, Vajpayee, next Hindu V/s other caste and everytime they change their agenda just for the sake of Power"BHAIYA,KAISE BHI KURSI MIL JAYEE"
You Kid



mediator said:


> Well if you are so proud of the terms "super power" etc, then I guess its really useless if they can't even stop the huge tolls of their own people. Its like we have muscles & steroids, but seriously diseased from inside!! And come to think of it I guess we all saw lesser terrorist strikes during the NDA time. Don't imagine me as any of these party's supporter. But, its like once a month now in UPA's regime where we see "Breaking News". And regarding inflation, well it seems you are ignoring farmers' suicide.
> 
> So don't be so elated by seeing news of "super" to "ultra super", if it can't stop the death toll and the congressies have to run to "Mummy" (Rice) everytime who really acts like a Mummy and tells to act "restraint". I'm not going to reminisce the past for you like a bedtime story teller, but its funny that people forget the wrongs of a party when it does something right during the end of its tenure. So forgiving hun?


FArmers??? Dear in which state they suiside? RAJASTHAN, again the state where BJP was in power. Likhne se pehle dekh to liya karo ki kahan ki likh rahe ho?:roll:


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## mediator (Jan 1, 2009)

You only confirmed why INDIA is not developed yet! Well how can it when people themselves play spoil sports? A little prickle on the Congress and the loyalist gets distraught!

Your logic contains only one premise! "Oh, So what about BJP?? Hey, but BJP also failed!!" 

Why is congress so biased towards Babri Masjid, coz as far as history goes many mosques were built on the top of demolished temples or even like the loyalist, congress itself is ignorant of the history?? Why is Congress biased only towards the so called minorities neglecting Kashmiri Pandits? Funny that congress doesn't even acknowledge who started Godhra. What about Sheila Dikshit not accepting that Delhi is a crime capital of INDIA and remarking on the murder of Soumya Dikshit that "one should not be adventurous"? What about Patil saying "ek ad ghtna hoti rehti hain"? Funny that congressies have no leader. The whole party is run by a foreigner puppeteer and a chosen PM, instead of an elected PM with a heir, i.e Rahul Baba involved in Rape case and the rest like patil, antulay, arjun singh acting on their own and remarking silly!! To make the matters worse the congress fanboys and megalomaniacs keep on spreading the enlightenment.

So, what about Kargil? Vajpayee went to Paki and witnessed kargil? OR r u saying it was is fault for initiating peace process? What about parliament attack? I guess terrorists would have done a favour to the people of INDIA. What about Akshardham? Another lapse in security like 26/11?



			
				chooza said:
			
		

> Whatever their is Congress, *but atleast they have their Ageda from last several years,* Its not like BJP that one time, RAM, another time, Vajpayee, next Hindu V/s other caste and everytime they change their agenda just for the sake of Power"BHAIYA,KAISE BHI KURSI MIL JAYEE"
> You Kid


The only agenda they have is divide this country on the basis of religion and practising votebanks with quota,reservations soaring, and the power of "muslim vote" increasing thanx to Banladeshi immigration and congress's "secular" policies.

Now regarding farmers, well I hate doing spoon feeding!
*www.cpiml.org/liberation/year_2006/June/farmer_maharashtra.htm
*www.hindu.com/2008/02/01/stories/2008020151580300.htm
*news.indiainfo.com/2008/11/25/0811...ble_for_farmers_suicide_in_state_gadkari.html


Besides, you really did not get my point about farmers suicide did you? Instead you took it to "Whose the lesser evil between the two"!! Congratulations.


Being a congress loyalist, you did not reply to any of my points regarding rahul baba and or riots etc. Instead you started whining bt the "lesser evil" politics. Learn that we need a new party which is unbiased and adhers to our sentiments, one which can take strong and quick actions in the time of need. 



So @chooza, nice username and but please don't act like one.


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## esumitkumar (Jan 2, 2009)

+1 for mediator's points but username chooooza is really funny  

Jokes apart...I think BJP doesnt do anything abt Bangladeshi Immigrnts cuz they were taking support of 36 parties ..unka khud ka koi single decision nahin tha .give them 5 yrs time and a single majority and then lets compare them with KONGO aka KONGRESS ...

They deserve at least a single majority chance in center !


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## lywyre (Jan 2, 2009)

I never thought India was a two party system. @ those who talk about the "lesser evil", why don't you vote for a deserving candidate in your constituency, who is not part of Congress or BJP. Is there no one else contesting or what. I never go for the lesser evil, I vote for the person who promises to be least corrupt and more efficient, if none, then I vote for the person who is certain to lose. Or better, like one of my friends, we can nullify our vote by refusing to vote at the polling both.


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## chooza (Jan 2, 2009)

lywyre said:


> I never thought India was a two party system. @ those who talk about the "lesser evil", why don't you vote for a deserving candidate in your constituency, who is not part of Congress or BJP. Is there no one else contesting or what. I never go for the lesser evil, I vote for the person who promises to be least corrupt and more efficient, if none, then I vote for the person who is certain to lose. Or better, like one of my friends, we can nullify our vote by refusing to vote at the polling both.


Tru Bro.



esumitkumar said:


> +1 for mediator's points but username chooooza is really funny
> 
> Jokes apart...I think BJP doesnt do anything abt Bangladeshi Immigrnts cuz they were taking support of 36 parties ..unka khud ka koi single decision nahin tha .give them 5 yrs time and a single majority and then lets compare them with KONGO aka KONGRESS ...
> 
> They deserve at least a single majority chance in center !


Toh UPA main kya Congress Akeli hai? Likne se pehle dekho plz.Infact Nuclear deal ke liye they put their govt. in danger. Did BJP has a courage to do so. never. They ministers were shown worldwide by Tehelka  for acepting bribe"PAISA KHUDA TOH NAHI BUT KHUDA SE KAM BHI NAHI" kya hua? Kya kiya? Tehleke ko BAN kar diya. kuch hua? nahi. Humare so called clean Defence minster Army soldiers ke kafan main GHOOS KHAATE hue pakde gaye. kisi ne resign kiya? Nahi. Kahan ho Sarkar? JAAGO



mediator said:


> You only confirmed why INDIA is not developed yet! Well how can it when people themselves play spoil sports? A little prickle on the Congress and the loyalist gets distraught!
> 
> Your logic contains only one premise! "Oh, So what about BJP?? Hey, but BJP also failed!!"
> 
> ...



Bhaiya Loyalty ka toh BJP main hua tha Jab poore desh ne TV pe Currency Briefcase open hote dekhe the. Aur History main Jeene ki aadat chodo. Agar itni hi Himmat hai toh Bhaiya zara macca ki maszid tod ke dikhao, suna hai uske neeche bhi Shivling hai.Aur itna hi hai toh aajtak Ram mandir bana kyun nahi?I am not saying that BJP is eaqual to Congress, they never be,this party is worst part in India.

Hmmm...Divide and rule the country, toh abhi Religin ke base pe Kaun kar raha hai? Maharastra main Bala Saheb Thakrey Kya kar rahe hain. Accoring to him Shiv sena is wife of BJP.
Kya naam ke hisaab se Mediate karne ka kaam hai kya?aur mere ko loyalist keh rahe ho, khud ke paas stupid reasons ke alawa kuch hai?


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## mediator (Jan 2, 2009)

Even Paki news readers speak better "Hinglish". You win, I surrender! 




			
				chooza said:
			
		

> Aur History main Jeene ki aadat chodo


I agree. Lets forget Babri and Godhra, shake hands and say "Happy New year"!!


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## chooza (Jan 3, 2009)

mediator said:


> Even Paki news readers speak better "Hinglish". You win, I surrender!
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. Lets forget Babri and Godhra, shake hands and say "Happy New year"!!


Many Many HAPPY NEW YEAR Brother. I too surrender. We are fighting uselessly. Untill and only jab tak Rang De basnati jaisa hum log h nahi karenge. tab tak koi bhi party ho, kuch nahi hoga. Again HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS.


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## mediator (Jan 3, 2009)

^Yeah Happy new year to u toooo and everyone else! Njoy n let the euphoria prevail with the onchor of this chilly winter ...


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## esumitkumar (Jan 3, 2009)

^^ya ya.HNY too all ..and do listen Tauba tera jalwa tauba tera pyar..tera emosional atyachaaar    from Dev D ..he he he


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## krinish (Feb 28, 2009)

Time this thread needed a bump.

I couldn't believe my eyes when the old man L K Advani popped up on every website i have been visiting this week.

Want to see india stand tall? Advani for PM www.hiswebsite.com ...... Shouts the AD banners across almost all websites it seems.

BJP are already doing it big time in karanataka. They are quite easily making upto atleast 5 more pages of the news paper every day closely followed by congress.

BJP has been a failure in karnataka. 

From praja.in

I was told that the Magadi Road - Cord Road junction underpass was hurried completed with sub-standard work so that the CM could inaugurate it yesterday. So much for one mans publicity carvings!! 

“There are no rains and food production has fallen due to the sins committed by various people in the past. I believe in God. I have allocated money so that Gods will be pleased and shower mercy on us.’’ - B S Yeddyurappa
Shocked is what i am!! This was the clarification given by our CM when asked to justify the 130 Crore (!!!) allocation to Muttas and Temples.


BSY is free to spend his resources on what he believes in, after his work hours. Just like you and me. But what authority does he have to use public funds to promote Gods mercy on us? Better still, how does he know the almighty God would be pleased by him allocating 130 crores of our money
Add to that the way ministers have handled the pub attacks, and some even going the extent by defending the goons and goondas.

Not to be left out the karnataka home minister's comments about art, which was uncalled for.

Bunch of clowns the people of karnataka have elected.
Just imagine what will happen this religion monger's comes to force.
Goons like the one involved in Mangalore have a filed day everyday.
We will have many more girls molested and harassed, because they were wearing what they liked wearing.



Congress are bad too, but they don't harp upon religion. I choose the lesser evil


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## krinish (Mar 4, 2009)

BJP is utter rubbish in karnataka. They cant control a thing.

ABVP imposes ban on wearing burkhas in rural college in Karnataka .

*www.hindu.com/2009/03/03/stories/2009030354850700.htm

Sudipto Mondal

PANJA VILLAGE/SULLIA TALUK: Muslim girls of the Government Composite Pre-University College here have been banned from wearing burkhas by local Hindutva outfits and the Bharatiya Janata Party-affiliated Akhil Bharathiya Vidyarthi Parishad.

According to Lakshmisha Gobbalathadka, the self-proclaimed architect of the ban, the idea was first proposed to the college authorities at his behest by a few students affiliated to the ABVP in early January this year.

“Four of my boys spoke to the college principal and demanded that Muslim girls be banned from wearing burkhas in classrooms,” said Mr. Gobbalathadka, who is also the district convener of a fringe outfit called Hindu Jagarana Vedike.

“We agreed immediately. We did not want any trouble,” said a college official. But soon the demands began to grow. Emboldened by the support the boys received from a section of students, they went on to extend the ban to the entire 28-acre campus.

Once the ban was formalised by the college authorities, a groups of boys took it upon themselves to impose it. “Every day, the boys sit at the tea stall near the college gate. If we take even one step into the college gate with the burkha on, they start scolding us,” said a 16-year-old class 10 student.
Violence on campus

Meanwhile, another controversy broke out on the campus after the ABVP alleged that a Muslim boy had made a proposal of marriage to a Hindu girl. “Our boys beat up the Muslim boy on February 28,” claimed Mr. Gobbalathadka. At the college’s development committee meeting on January 29, a large group of students, led by Mr. Gobbalathadka, barged in demanding that Muslim girls stop wearing the burkha even on their way to and from the college. The demand created a furore dividing committee members, according to college principal, Balasubramaniam. Soon, hundreds of activists entered the venue and physically attacked Muslim committee members and Hindus who opposed their demands. Following the incident, Mr. Gobbalathadka and his followers were arrested and remanded in judicial custody.
Growing support

“Many others have been inspired by the success we have had here. Soon, this campaign will spread to all government colleges in the region,” Mr. Gobbalathadka told The Hindu, and added that the garment would soon be banned from public spaces in the entire village of Panja.

Panja gram panchayat president Rafique, who sustained injuries during the January 29 violence, said: “Some may feel that the burkha is a symbol of oppression of women. Even if that is true, a resistance to the garment should come from within the community. How can we tolerate somebody using force to ban the burkha?”

Reacting to the issue, Deputy Director of Public Instruction C. Chame Gowda told The Hindu, “The college authorities might have agreed to the ban under pressure. But there is no law that prevents the burkha. Everybody has the right to practice their religious beliefs as long as it does not inconvenience others.”

Deputy Commissioner V. Ponnuraj expressed concern over the developments and said he was still inquiring into the issue. “The rule of law and the Constitution will prevail,” he said.


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## sahil shah (Mar 29, 2009)

anispace said:


> @esumitkumar
> 
> Well if u think BJP is that great and firm against Terrorism why couldnt they stop the bomb blasts in Gujarat and Karnataka where they are in power.
> 
> ...


Sorry brother but read the news first .... I admit that gujarat goverment is failed last time on terror attack(bomb blast) in the year in 2008. But all the terrorist involved in it are all in jail now ....with in 15 days Guj goverment had find them all from diffrent sectors in india . even the person who deliver them car is in jail now ....the Guj gov had just repeat the history of isreal when there athletics were killed ... last terrorist attack before this was in 2003 aksardham .....
In mumbai after every terrorist attack congress goverment say the same thing "sab pakistan bhag gaye " . did any terrorist involve in train blast had been caught?????


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## giri1991 (Mar 30, 2009)

I am not even eligible to Vote, yet I support BJP  I feel they can do much developments and less demolishments than what congress did  

And some guys are just aggrevating Varun's issue ... Which was blown up by Media (Channels like NDTV, CNN-IBN took major part) gave him mass campaign thanks to them, Now hez known in every nook and corner of India, the funny fact was congress after the issue didnt wanna arrest him, If they do so which will give him more publicty  Actually scared  Where Varun took the chance and made himself a hero by giving a heroic surrender .. Ta daaaa  Man surely I will vote for him  If I could 

Now as this issue has is coming down ... Soon NDTV and CNN-IBN will go for the public opinion etc bla bla who will win bla bla ... Personally I hate these 2 channels ... Their activities during the 26 X 11 incident was criticised all over India ! These 2 guys were having a war that who will give more info about the Army moments 

Man I want BJP back ... They could atleast run a decent government ! Where PM takes his own decition


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## vamsi_krishna (Apr 10, 2009)

god damn.. Be brief guys. I'm feeling like seeing a late night History Channel Program.

As for votes, I will go with BJP.Sue you........ Indian National Congress.

But in poll i accidentally voted for congress


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## The Sorcerer (Apr 10, 2009)

We are living in a country where people spit, throw garbage on the road, piss on the sidewalks, cheat people in the back, dont do work on time, try to sell cheap substandard products and drive on wrong side of the road- no matter how educated one person is, yet we expect politicians to be much better. It just doesn't make sense. Democracy is of the people for the people and by the people so its obvious that politician's behaviour way of doing things will not be much different from majority of the people. Democracy starts at home so if people want a better country and with a better government people need to change themselves first and then expect changes. We as Indians are capable to do so, as most of us who travel abroad abide to other country's lifestyle pretty easily.


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## Disc_Junkie (Apr 10, 2009)

Ek din ka PM ka idea kaisa hai!!...


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## uchiha_madara (Apr 10, 2009)

The Sorcerer said:


> We are living in a country where people spit, throw garbage on the road, piss on the sidewalks, cheat people in the back, dont do work on time, try to sell cheap substandard products and drive on wrong side of the road- no matter how educated one person is, yet we expect politicians to be much better. It just doesn't make sense. Democracy is of the people for the people and by the people so its obvious that politician's behaviour way of doing things will not be much different from majority of the people. Democracy starts at home so if people want a better country and with a better government people need to change themselves first and then expect changes. We as Indians are capable to do so, as most of us who travel abroad abide to other country's lifestyle pretty easily.


+1
I would have surely voted for BJP if they had fielded someone who wasn't half way into his grave.Advani is 84 years old for crying out loud.If govt sets the retirement age for public sevants  to be 65 or 68 years or whatever then why do they think the public will be happy to entrust the running of the whole country to some senile old fart.

Congress, I will never understand your love for Gandhi family and why are you a bunch of f#@king pansies who can't seem to find a leader from among a billion f#$king people and need to be lead by a woman who can't speak a whole goddamn line in one of the native tongues.And to be fair Mr Manmohan Singh is also riding the same train to oblivion as Mr Advani.
Also, why if Mr ManMohan Singh is going to be PM in case of a Congress win do I see pic of Rahul Gandhi in the posters.I believe they are just going to make Rahul the PM after a year or something and we can kiss good bye to every thing as we know it.
Anyway as far as I am concerned these are the only two parties for me.I hate all the coalition crap that is introduced because of the regional parties.


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## evewin89 (Apr 10, 2009)

ancientrites said:


> i will always support congress.
> 
> 
> what this nonsense "A Ban on Cow Slaughter, to honor the Hindu tradition of deeming cows and most cattle as sacred, and prohibiting the consumption of beef and pork"
> ...


+1
according to me the biggest prob. is that the above parties u mentioned always tries to discriminate religion from one another.everybody says "india is one" but actually most of the people tries to show their religion is better than other casts. We all should 1st learn that we all are humans and for me  Humanity matters more than religion.


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## chooza (Apr 13, 2009)

uchiha_madara said:


> +1
> I would have surely voted for BJP if they had fielded someone who wasn't half way into his grave.Advani is 84 years old for crying out loud.If govt sets the retirement age for public sevants  to be 65 or 68 years or whatever then why do they think the public will be happy to entrust the running of the whole country to some senile old fart.
> 
> Congress, I will never understand your love for Gandhi family and why are you a bunch of f#@king pansies who can't seem to find a leader from among a billion f#$king people and need to be lead by a woman who can't speak a whole goddamn line in one of the native tongues.And to be fair Mr Manmohan Singh is also riding the same train to oblivion as Mr Advani.
> ...



Because Gandhi name is seal of assurance. No other politician in India Other than Mr, AB Vajpayee has such Karisma to unite people, to make them listen to their words. And as far as You are talking about hindi problem of Mrs. Sonia, Kindly tell me how many So called Indian politicians speak in Hindi while giving any statement?Atleast she has courage to connect to the citizens of the country where she was not born. In contrast, Mr Advani or Mr. Modi, who do not have any respect to the citizens of India. No respect for elders, no repect for minor classes. No ethics, no values. Just like THALI KE BAINGAN. Sometimes this, sometimes that.


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## chooza (Apr 13, 2009)

uchiha_madara said:


> +1
> I would have surely voted for BJP if they had fielded someone who wasn't half way into his grave.Advani is 84 years old for crying out loud.If govt sets the retirement age for public sevants  to be 65 or 68 years or whatever then why do they think the public will be happy to entrust the running of the whole country to some senile old fart.
> 
> Congress, I will never understand your love for Gandhi family and why are you a bunch of f#@king pansies who can't seem to find a leader from among a billion f#$king people and need to be lead by a woman who can't speak a whole goddamn line in one of the native tongues.And to be fair Mr Manmohan Singh is also riding the same train to oblivion as Mr Advani.
> ...



Because Gandhi name is seal of assurance. No other politician in India Other than Mr, AB Vajpayee has such Karisma to unite people, to make them listen to their words. And as far as You are talking about hindi problem of Mrs. Sonia, Kindly tell me how many So called Indian politicians speak in Hindi while giving any statement?Atleast she has courage to connect to the citizens of the country where she was not born. In contrast, Mr Advani or Mr. Modi, who do not have any respect to the citizens of India. No respect for elders, no repect for minor classes. No ethics, no values. Just like THALI KE BAINGAN. Sometimes this, sometimes that.


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## gcbeldar (Apr 13, 2009)

esumitkumar said:


> OK guys time to fight ..Whats your take ? Our country is going to civil unrest ..(bomb blasts everywhere, marathi regionalism ..Raj spilling poison,Marathis killing UPites and Biharis etc etc) As Alexander said in the other thread, we should go and vote in the next LS elections the best candidate..Now which party will develop our nation more ?
> 
> BJP or Congress ?
> 
> ...


+1 for BJP


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## uchiha_madara (Apr 13, 2009)

chooza said:


> Because Gandhi name is seal of assurance. No other politician in India Other than Mr, AB Vajpayee has such Karisma to unite people, to make them listen to their words. And as far as You are talking about hindi problem of Mrs. Sonia, Kindly tell me how many So called Indian politicians speak in Hindi while giving any statement?Atleast she has courage to connect to the citizens of the country where she was not born. In contrast, Mr Advani or Mr. Modi, who do not have any respect to the citizens of India. No respect for elders, no repect for minor classes. No ethics, no values. Just like THALI KE BAINGAN. Sometimes this, sometimes that.



Gandhi name an assurance, maybe for you bro not for me(you don't need to sell me your viewpoint  ).Tell me when did she bring together the people of India a feat even Mr A.B.Vajpayee was only capable in times when national pride was at stake like during our testing of Nukes etc.
Switch on the television bro or go outside and listen to one of the rallies and all you are gonna listen is politicians emptying out there lungs in the native tongue. 
Courage what courage at the worst she would have gone back to her cosy life, it is not as if she clawed her way from lower party position to the top, she was just put their by the upper echelon of Congress and it is this mindset that I find upsetting.Instead of nurturing current and future politicians who might lead our country they just keep pandering to the Gandhi family.
Yeah they too have their faults and I think the phrase(I don't get what you have written) you are looking for is " Bepende ke Lote"   and I don't think you can apply to Narendra Modi, he is been pretty adamant about his disdain for things that he doesn't agree to.


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## Phantom Lancer (Apr 13, 2009)

One major point everybody seems to have forgotten is 

The demolition of Babri Masjid was directly responsible for terrorist attacks inside India .... Large scale terrorist attacks were formerly conducted by Paki outfits on Indian army personnel in Kashmir only ....... But after Babri Masjid episode Terrorists started targeting soft targets (civilian targets) all over India . 

After most attacks (large scale attacks on civilians) Babri Majid is featured as a key reason by the attackers .
Heres a link (wiki) on attacks (large scale suicide bombings) carried out in Mumbai .... notice that all attacks are dated after the year 1992 

*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_India

i agree with what a poster posted before . 

Congress is too lenient and BJP too aggressive

anyways most of BJP's Hindutva ideals are totally in opposition to India's secular constitution drafted by leaders such Nehru  and Gandhi (they are the ones who got us freedom after all) .


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## Phantom Lancer (Apr 13, 2009)

karnivore said:


> @ Anonrion
> 
> You have presented an extremely simplistic, almost a naïve understanding of communism. Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion.


 Are you trying out your vocabulary on him  ... he s pretty well informed actually 



> Every single theory, which is subjective to individual interpretations, will have multiple facets. It is inevitable. The theory of communism is not fragmented.


unfortunately that view is carried  , not only by Anorion but also by many  historians in general



> Different people have tried to look at it from different perspective, gave it a different spin. I will not bore you with the details of the differences between Marxism and Leninism and Maoism etc. The basic differences are extremely subtle and technical and are mainly about the implementation of MARXISM.


Agreed



> Marxism, however, remains at the core of all the so called “fragmentations” . Fragmentations were not the reason why communism waned. Internal inconsistencies and flawed logic resulted in its demise.


Fragmentation especially between China and the soviet Union ( or rather by Mao ze Dong and Khrushchev ) was a major reason for the wane of communism . 

The effects were felt as far away as Middle East (infighting among Palestinian factions), Africa ->Somalian-Ethiopian war,Angolan war etc 

China once allied to the soviet Union was actively trying to take soviet union's place as the ideological leader of  the communist block . By actively promoting Maoism and supplanting the (according to Mao) "revisionist view of Communism" propagated by Khrushchev  led USSR .

Khrushchev's revisionist version deviated quiet a bit from the core Marxist-Leninist view of communism followed by Stalin previously



> The Indian scene is extremely different and it has got nothing to do with communism itself. A faction of the unified CPI wanted to support Congress while another faction did not. This resulted in the split. The CPI(M-L) entered the scene much later and was a freak movement started at Naxalbari.


Wrong ! ..... Sino-Soviet split reflected in Indian circles too especially in West Bengal ...... As you are well aware , Naxalites  are Maoists 

To quote from wikipedia's article on Naxalites


> *"Naxalite* or *Naxalism* is an informal name given to communist groups that were born out of the Sino-Soviet split in the Indian communist movement. " -Courtesy wikipedia


You will understand that only when you realize that , one of the major ideals of Maoism is "the violent showdown with capitalists"  .... so it encourages violence like that followed by Naxalites

while revisionists held that "communism could co-exist with capitalism" which is unacceptable to Maoists ....

thats the difference


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## uchiha_madara (Apr 13, 2009)

@Phantom Lancer: [off topic] nice signature.
I was totally surprised to learn(not today of course) that Babri Masjid demolition was mostly a hand and hammer enterprise[\off topic].
Agree with  post #145 except that give credit to many other, well known leaders of the day rather than the one who spawned a dynasty(well more or less that  is the truth).


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## chooza (Apr 14, 2009)

uchiha_madara said:


> Gandhi name an assurance, maybe for you bro not for me(you don't need to sell me your viewpoint  ).Tell me when did she bring together the people of India a feat even Mr A.B.Vajpayee was only capable in times when national pride was at stake like during our testing of Nukes etc.
> Switch on the television bro or go outside and listen to one of the rallies and all you are gonna listen is politicians emptying out there lungs in the native tongue.
> Courage what courage at the worst she would have gone back to her cosy life, it is not as if she clawed her way from lower party position to the top, she was just put their by the upper echelon of Congress and it is this mindset that I find upsetting.Instead of nurturing current and future politicians who might lead our country they just keep pandering to the Gandhi family.
> Yeah they too have their faults and I think the phrase(I don't get what you have written) you are looking for is " Bepende ke Lote"  and I don't think you can apply to Narendra Modi, he is been pretty adamant about his disdain for things that he doesn't agree to.


R U Serious???? Natinal Pride was at stake at the time of Pokeran blast or at the time of Parliament attack or at Godhra????For your knowledge, I  just want to share with you that I do not watch TV etal. And I am considering Sonia as an outsider, not an Indian. Got it??? Mr. AB Vajpayee was in BJP, but his thoughts are from Pre independence era, where, everyone works for India, Its not like that First praise Jinna, and then saying sorry for that. When, govt. Invite you to tackle mumbai, you are saying that I am busy with my election program, Infact, today BJP do not have any agenda to focus (except gaining the power)Lets take and example of Brother sister duo from same family. Had you ever heard anything nasty about Late Mr.Madhav Rao Sindhia??? compare it with Mrs. Vasundhra Raje Sindhia. Right? and about Mr. Modi, Do you seriously think he deserve to lead modern India, and what you think about India, do it contains only HINDU??? or Male society???? Where was Mr. Advani and Mr. Modi, when Some stupids from Bajrang Dal was beating girls like anything.If same treatment was given to some female member of your family, then also, you think like this??? or you praise a chief minihster, who is resposible for Godhra to lead India??? SORRY BOSS, i AM MUCH HAPPY WITH A PERSON FROM FOREIGN ORGIN TO LIVE AS COMPARE TO THESE LOCALS. AND  AS FAR AS COMFORT IS CONCERN, BJP IS VERY MUCH KNOWN TO ESTABLISH RIOTS IN COUNTRY AND THEIR LEADERS WERE SITTING IN AC JAILS WITH ALL THE COMFORTS.


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## Phantom Lancer (Apr 15, 2009)

BJP's support for parties such as the RSS is really their biggest mistake (i believe) .....

Just today i came across this article from a newspaper .... heres the online page
titled 

"Poisoning the minds of Children"

*www.hindu.com/2009/04/15/stories/2009041555871100.htm

This is what is taught in state run schools sponsored by the RSS
heres a sample text (rest in the link)


> Internal Achievements of Nazism: _Hitler lent dignity and prestige to the German government_ within a short time by establishing a _strong administrative set up_. He created the vast state of Greater Germany. He adopted the _policy of opposition towards the Jewish people and advocated the supremacy of the German race_. He adopted a new economic policy and brought _prosperity to Germany….He instilled the spirit of adventure in the common people._
> 
> German race-pride has now become the topic of the day. To keep up the purity of the race and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the semitic racesthe Jews. Race-pride at its highest has been manifested here. Germany has also shown how well nigh impossible it is for Races and cultures, having differences going to the root, to be assimilated into one united whole, _a good lesson for use in Hindusthan_ to learn and profit by.



can u effin believe that ?? Encouraging Nazi style Genocide in India  (of non- Hindus of course)


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## MetalheadGautham (Apr 16, 2009)

Exactly. Congress and some other non-central parties are the only "lesser-evil" parties. Left has an outdated ideology, while BJP has a communist ideology. Congress too has some issues, like family monopoly (of the Ghandi/Nehru family) and they ditched Pranab Mukherjee temporarily because he was ambitious for power in congress. But outside its internals, I think its a fairly safe party to vote, more so in recession because Chidambaram and Manmohan Singh are very experienced ex-finance ministers.


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## mediator (Apr 16, 2009)

A party run by a bunch of oligarchs, who couldn't "accept" muslim "surname" in their own family and politically involved and started the 1984 riots, is "lesser evil" and "secular"? Aren't they the one who are favouring muslim reservation? Talk about Sharia and hypocrisy over hindutva. So, freedom for afzal and discrimination towards sadhvi and others? NSA for Varun and nuthing for Lalu? Whats worse, would we be having separatists contesting elections? Talking about ideology, I guess BJP atleast calls for uniform civil code.

I believe madrassas sheltering and producing terrorists should be razed and religious laws be removed from constitution. Had 'minorities' approached the party for their 'problems', I bet Congress would have even allowed talibanization of India. And then, we have a moron on the loose , the future of India, bah Humbug.  

Neways, Personal predilections...!


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## MetalheadGautham (Apr 16, 2009)

Thats why I said "lesser evil". Others screw up more. Much more. I would rather have Islamist Terrorism than Hindutava Terrorism because the no. of muslims is much less compared to no. of hindus so less potential damage.

As for 84 riots, they atleast apologised and are behaving today.

Newayz, if you want removal of religious laws from constitution, Left is the only way and they screw things up real tight as far as the economy is concerned. Aren't they the ones who think taxing should increase exponentially with money ? Thats one of the worst possible scenarios. If I study hard and earn, they grab half my money, while the n00b who wastes his time using the worst possible techniques for farming and brings the nation's GDP down, has his expenditure subsidised by my money instead of knocking some brains into him by making farming diplomas/degrees/certificates courses free and compulsary for them so that they make India look more respectable.


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## esumitkumar (Apr 16, 2009)

Phantom Lancer said:


> BJP's support for parties such as the RSS is really their biggest mistake (i believe) .....
> 
> Just today i came across this article from a newspaper .... heres the online page
> titled
> ...


 
*hmm..and have u ever gone and see whats taught in these so called Madarsas ????*


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## Phantom Lancer (Apr 16, 2009)

esumitkumar said:


> *hmm..and have u ever gone and see whats taught in these so called Madarsas ????*



Have you  ??


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## Phantom Lancer (Apr 16, 2009)

mediator said:


> A party run by a bunch of oligarchs, who couldn't "accept" muslim "surname" in their own family and politically involved and started the 1984 riots, is "lesser evil" and "secular"? Aren't they the one who are favouring muslim reservation? Talk about Sharia and hypocrisy over hindutva. So, freedom for afzal and discrimination towards sadhvi and others? NSA for Varun and nuthing for Lalu? Whats worse, would we be having separatists contesting elections? Talking about ideology, I guess BJP atleast calls for uniform civil code.
> 
> I believe madrassas sheltering and producing terrorists should be razed and religious laws be removed from constitution. Had 'minorities' approached the party for their 'problems', I bet Congress would have even allowed talibanization of India. And then, we have a moron on the loose , the future of India, bah Humbug.
> 
> Neways, Personal predilections...!




Theres only one party(or rather an alliance) that carries Religious fundamentalism as one of its key ideals in its party manifesto  / and its not congress  ...... 
Congress does play vote bank politics ..... but to say that they ll do anything that the minority community asks (like implementing sharia in India) is really silly ..... 

I believe that Varun was targeted by the BSP and Congress was just a mute spectator (obviously because he was from BJP) ..... i doubt any other party in place of congress would have done anything different ...... they take every opportunity to attack each other

I support the view that religious laws should be removed .... this would not be possible if BJP came to power .... because reservation based on caste or religion (which i dont support ) is not a law .......but BJP (especially one with Advani in the forefront /EX-RSS guy ) will look to implement religious laws biased against particular religions ....

From past experience i am really suspicious of the Uniform civil code ...... 

Uniform Civil code if implemented correctly is the best possible cure for the communally divided people in India ..... BUT such laws which give the ruling govt quite a lot of power have been used in the past to attack rival parties or particular sections of the society ........ 

good examples were POTA and the anti-religious conversion laws (implemented in certain states) ....... In both cases none of the wrong doers were arrested .... it was merely used as a tool by the ruling party to arrest all those who opposed their views 

I believe that UPC is just such one such tool ...... i dont think it will be implemented in the spirit of democracy and secularism


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## mediator (Apr 16, 2009)

@mhg : I thought you would condemn sharia. But, instead you favoured it on some absurd logic. Strange hun? 

A political party which was 'politically' involved in the "start" of 1984 riots and now still proposing minority appeasement and all sort of reservations based on it,...., you call that "behaving"?

Left is not the way, its the suicide path, a party which is allowing Bangladeshis in lieu of muslim vote banks, atleast BJP recognises the issue and its perils ! And whats wrong in taxes based on income? Dun mind, but all I can say is that you have a child's understanding of taxes. The one's who are doing hardwork day and night aren't noobies. 

Just like the gap between rich and poor, condition of illiteracy etc cannot be solved in a day or even in an year, the condition of farmer cannot be solved just like that. You are looking at a country with a huge population and majority of land under agriculture. Your view is like of a person who thinks that there are no ups and downs in life and that life is all simple, smooth and without dangers and difficulties. About 70% of the people of India depend on agriculture for employment and logically all of them for food. One cannot deny the fact that food is more important than finished goods from industries. Obviously you cannot see the various factors affecting the situation and the repercussions if the steps are not taken carefully. An interesting read...
*www.stwr.org/food-security-agricul...l-have-400-million-agricultural-refugees.html

Then we have people who are earning a lot but aren't doing much work. A class of politicians come under such category. We have soldiers. Do you know the implementations on them? Or will you call them noobies? A betterment for farmer will obviously mean that he will be able to buy and apply advanced techniques, which in turn will be better for the economy. A better income for farmer will mean less immigration from rural to urban areas. Have you ever journeyed through a train to the remotest parts of India? If not, then its highly recommended for people like you who are oblivious to the reality where you will find empty agricultural lands for hours while viewing from the train window with only a few farmers in the sight. See the situation in Delhi or any metros, where people from small villages and town from all over India are immigrating to. What happens? The metros become congested, security lapses, it becomes polluted, accidents and murders rise exponentially and what not. How can a limited police force take care of a metro where 1000s of people are entering everyday for job? What happens in rural areas? People leave that place and that leads to a dangerous situation where terrorists might take refuge easily and form a base. Who would do development where there is less population instead of higher populated ones which can yield higher vote banks? Recently in newspapers, it reported that in some part of sikkim, no politician goes as it high up on the mountains and population is just about 2000 people and there is no development work that has been happening.


Is that what you want, i.e a vicious circle? If the farmers of Haryana and Punjab can succeed, then why not the farmers of the rest of India? You talk ignorant as if you are concerned only of yourself and not the entire nation. 

You need to reflect ...


			
				mhg said:
			
		

> Thats one of the worst possible scenarios. If I study hard and earn, they grab half my money, while the *n00b who wastes his time* using the worst possible techniques for farming and brings the nation's GDP down, has his expenditure subsidised by my money instead of *knocking some brains into him* by making farming diplomas/degrees/certificates courses free and compulsary for them so that they make India look *more respectable.*


Atleast, Be grateful of what you eat and towards the producer!



			
				phantom said:
			
		

> Theres only one party(or rather an alliance) that carries Religious fundamentalism as one of its key ideals in its party manifesto / and its not congress  ......


Like I said each has his own views. Does it really matter if Congress doesn't have 'religious fundamentalism' as its ideologies? Remember, actions speak louder than words!!!


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## Phantom Lancer (Apr 16, 2009)

^ And your reply was nt much better ! 

In order to help people from the lower echelons of the society positive measures should be implemented ....... like schemes (that are actually implemented) from farmers [No interest micro loans , low cost modern farm equipment and the like]

But you know what they do .... They increase the tax for the middle class people and with all the tax they collect ... do they implement anything ??   Nope ... A lot of money is set aside for such schemes but this money never reaches the intended people due to corruption 

Its not like the Indian govt is short of money (tax and grants from other countries and UN) ... its just that they are not sincere in its implementation .....

I too def wont want to pay high tax if its just going to end up in some politician's pocket or overseas bank account 

Neither govt was effective in this

No wonder , i was nt surprised to see a party showing a lot of interest in bringing back the huge amount of  black money from switz ,,, for the betterment of India ?? ....... $$$$
-----------------------------------------
Posted again:
-----------------------------------------


mediator said:


> Like I said each has his own views


I am not Advani and you are not Manmohan Singh ......you can have your view and i can have mine and we can discuss about it .... nothings going to change 



> . Does it really matter if Congress doesn't have 'religious fundamentalism' as its ideologies? Remember, actions speak louder than words!!!



*Actions speak louder than words !*
they have nt been instigating any riots lately have they ?? 


FYI : I am neither pro congress nor pro BJP ...... as most of the posts in this thread have been pro BJP i am arguing for congress now ...... just dont take this discussion personally !


----------



## mediator (Apr 16, 2009)

Had u read the entire thread, u'd have noticed that I'm also not pro Congress or pro BJP. Regarding riots, I don't think Gujarat govt "instigated" any riot, the one which was "started" by a muslim mob and killed kar sevaks, who were just returning from their "yatra" from ayodhya many of whom were women and children, and murdered in a cold and calculated way!! Even Nanavati report has given the clean chit. 

*www.pressnote.in/readnews.php?id=43307

Its only normal for people to get furiated when someone kills innocent people like that returning from some "yatra" and that too "women and children" on board.
*www.thehindu.com/2002/03/10/stories/2002031000021700.htm




			
				phantom said:
			
		

> But you know what they do .... They increase the tax for the middle class people and with all the tax they collect ... do they implement anything ?? Nope ... A lot of money is set aside for such schemes but this money never reaches the intended people due to corruption
> 
> Its not like the Indian govt is short of money (tax and grants from other countries and UN) ... its just that they are not sincere in its implementation .....
> 
> ...


Thats what defines today's politicians! Being corrupt is a requisite.




			
				phantom said:
			
		

> ust today i came across this article from a newspaper .... heres the online page
> titled
> 
> "Poisoning the minds of Children"
> ...


So? The truth should be eradicated from the history? I never see anyone condemning the "the chapters of mughal glorification in NCERT books"?? Imagine young children thinking that we had been mughal slaves for centuries!

Refer this thread =>  *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109640

Why do those self-certified "secularists" who don't see the 'actions' of a situation are quick to point out the 'reactions' and refer it "communal"?? This will certainly happen if those who play apathetic towards one section and favour reservation and all sorts of luxuries for another. And then the sleeping beauties, the self-proclaimed judges will christen the activists of the former section as "communal". Well, I dont see anyone shouting that "muslim reservation" is communal. Nobody even sees this as a problem. Day wont be long when people will rise and demand hindu reservation and the sleeping beauties will wake from their hibernation and then call them "communal". Can anybody stop the slaughter of goats?


----------



## MetalheadGautham (Apr 17, 2009)

@mediator:

Don't you see ? I said instead of telling them to take more and more loans, they should be TAUGHT how to farm well. The same land is used in countries abroad for much much better harvests. Education is the one and only thing that can save them, these tax sops, subsidies, etc can act as temporary measures but having them forever is just stupid. Its like cutting leaves of weeds hoping that they don't grow, while they should be digging them up from the root to create a permanent solution.

Farming Industry is actually the industry in India with potential for maximum growth. All this can happen if and only if farmers are taught how to farm like PROS. Do you know that while 70% of Indians depend directly or indirectly on farming, their average efficiency is like 10% of the rest of the world ? Imagine what would happen if 70% of India starts earning 10 times what they earn now.

I voice my anger at the fact that while hard working people earning money are taxed a lot, the money does nothing useful.

Do you know that in Karnataka, the University of Agricultural Sciences is having 10 acres of its land demolished to widen a road ? Along with it are going several research plots, rare herbs and several trees.

Also, here the government allots lots of money to these hindu religious institutions, called "maths".

And politicians waste the time in the parliament arguing and causing several adjournments while eating up taxpayer's money.

Do you know that the MP, bollywood actor Govinda has only 12% attendance of the Lok Sabha in 2004-2009 ? And many MPs have single digit attendance percentage ? What does the government do to them ?

And look at the mumbai police. Buying weapons they won't even need by paying high prices without testing and screwing up.


*This is what I term blasphemy.*

They are WASTING taxpayer's money for all the wrong reasons.

I don't mind excessive taxation if the money collected is an INVESTMENT. But this is different. Most of the money goes waste. Tax money should be thought of like a Loan. A loan shouldn't be fully used up for just filling one's stomach. It should be used for investing in something which will assure you of plentiful to eat for years to come.

I remember my grandfather telling me of the times in 1950s when jobs were created in thousands with the help of Five Year plans and literacy and GDP increased exponentially. What do we have today ? NOTHING.


----------



## mediator (Apr 17, 2009)

And thats why I said that you are quite unaware of the reality. Just "Teaching" them won't do any good. You think farmers are not aware of whats good for them? Ok, take the case of reservation as an example (I hope others wont start digressing on this one). Do u think a person from remote village probably "an ideal" SC/ST/OBC who hasn't done his education properly, no personality which is supposed to be developed in schools, can really live and perform like others? Do u think reservation, low qualification/passing marks are really helping in "competing" with rest of the students? Will he have the same "facilities" as those general class students like a computer, internet, books to buy etc? He might be having problems at home. So just by giving "reservation", are we really doing any good?

Take the case of Btech. A person doing Btech needs to master all his technical knowledge at the end. Do u think those who entered through "ideal" OBC reservation will have all the materials to practice on? Practicals need material like listed above. no material, no practice!! Do u think an "ideal" OBC person can enroll for RHCE which needs thorough practicals and deep knowledge of comupters??  Perhaps, the OBC student might know "how" to proceed, but might not have sufficient funds.

Obviously he needs to have money and IMO, should be financially supported and made to compete "on equal terms".

Coming back, so "telling/teaching them" them is like giving "reservation" without any financial support which is absolutely silly.




			
				mhg said:
			
		

> their average efficiency is like 10% of the rest of the world


Here's a read for you. Understand it ...
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmers'_suicides_in_India 

Like discussed above, is the money meant for farmers really reaching them? Are they being given an equal reward for their harvest?



			
				mhg said:
			
		

> Do you know that in Karnataka, the University of Agricultural Sciences is having 10 acres of its land demolished to widen a road ? Along with it are going several research plots, rare herbs and several trees.


Do u know in my area (Delhi), there are more than 5 malls in 5 km radius, plenty of roadside shops, hundreds of eating joints and small complexes etc and the green cover razed without much concern over rail metro links, common wealth preparation, road widening, road digging every year of the same area etc etc. That is our government which  reduces the green cover that will result to more pollution in the already congested capital, lowering of water table etc. Why dig up the same road again an again? Can't they fix it up properly? And then, their intensity increases before elctions. How much money is wasted in digging the road again n again i.e inefficient plannng of the road? Who needs a dozens of malls so close to each other (?) and more coming up at the price of green cover. Coming to think of it Deli might be having more than 20 malls now and what not. 

Its not the "tax", but the inefficiency of all the governments unable to handle the matter fluently. What else will happen with the unequal development of our country? Delhi is still going under development like they wont leave any tree around. While most parts of India are left untouched, consequences explained! The moment you enter from Delhi to Noida (UP) u can 'feel' the insecurity, though Delhi is still the topper in the crime rate chart. If Delhites can indulge in all out verbal battles over a small accident at traffic lights, then you can see revolvers in UP over the same.

Don't u think our tax is also being misused in "accomodating" the 2 crore bangladeshis and still rising, who steal electricity, are involved in thefts and murders, getting free government medical facilties and petty vote banks??

Do note, the intensity of my quotation where I have put the word "ideal". You need to understand that helping farmers is "not" a wastage of tax, but an assurance for a better tomorrow. But are the farmer really being helped? A straight forward approach like "educating" them isn't much of an answer. Even then, if we consider that they have zero experience and no knowledge, the question arises "How to educate them"? Will they be given financial support there as well? 

Again, do note the size of population and territory under agriculture and add the term  "politics" to it, both in terms of typicality and efficiency.


----------



## karnivore (Apr 17, 2009)

Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> ... he s pretty well informed actually


  I am sure he is. I don’t think I doubted that. But being “well informed” is one thing, and understanding that information is another.


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> unfortunately that view is carried , not only by Anorion but also by many historians in general


  Names of such historians will be appreciated. Oh btw, I don’t belong to that school of apologists who find it difficult to believe that communism is good in theory, bad in practice.


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> Fragmentation especially between China and the soviet Union ( or rather by Mao ze Dong and Khrushchev ) was a major reason for the wane of communism .


  What you are essentially saying is that, the reason behind the happy demise of the theory is, because, two grown up men disagreed on how to practice their individual interpretation of the theory, rather than the myriad limitations and contradictions within their own interpretation of the theory, or for that matter, within the original works of Marx.

  Again, don’t belong to that school.


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> China once allied to the soviet Union was actively trying to take soviet union's place as the ideological leader of the communist block . By actively promoting Maoism and supplanting the (according to Mao) "revisionist view of Communism" propagated by Khrushchev led USSR .


  There is no denying the fact that communism in the 50s and early 60s found a poster boy in Mao, but by the end of 60s Mao himself was sidelined in his own country, thanks to Cultural revolution which resulted in massive drought in 1969. 

  Mao, however, never actively tried to be the new messiah on the block, as Stalin had tried. The post-Mao revolutions are testimony to the fact. Vietnam, lead by Ho Chi Minh, was modeled on Russian communism. Cuba, led by Fiedel Castro and Che Guavara, although started out as socialist movements, ultimately ended up following the Vietnam route which was largely based on Russian version of communism (collectivization etc). Even when Che decided that revolution was an exportable commodity and can be successfully exported to Bolivia, he chose the same Vietnam tactics. (His diary is testimony to that). The entire Easter Europe and some south European countries, notably Italy, by and large, subscribed to the Russian system.

  Chinese, influence was mostly restricted within the south eastern regions like Cambodia (Pol Pot) etc. and India and some parts of Latin America (Large part of Latin America, e.g. Argentina, Brazil, Venezuela were, however influenced by Fiedel and Che’s antics). 

  The reasons were manifold. Least of which was that Russian communism was based on a pre-existing economic structure, however fragile, while Chinese was based on practically non existent one, thanks to Chian Kai Shek. While, Russians had to figure out how to keep the existing infrastructure going and build on it, the Chinese had to build their system right from the scratch. Chinese social structure was also very different from the Russian, being an European country, and some wise guys in India felt, came close to that of India’s.

  The point is, that the Russians and the Chinese adapted communism that best suit their own situation. 


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> Wrong ! ..... Sino-Soviet split reflected in Indian circles too especially in West Bengal ...... As you are well aware , Naxalites are Maoists


  Nakshalbari movement was a local movement which caught the fancy of Mr Charu Mazumdar, who thought that it provided him with perfect ingredients for his lab test. Later on it caught the fancy of some really, otherwise genius men in Kolkata, resulting in the turbulent 70s. This finally spilled over to the other parts of India. Calling this local movement turned semi mass movement, a fall out of Sino-Soviet split is really ingenious. The Sino-Soviet split had taken place long before the Naxabari movement. In fact, Mao started to drift from the Soviet ideals, even before the long march. Mr Mazumdar was one of those wise guys who thought, Chinese situation fit the Indian case suitably. Hence his experimentation. 

If anything, Naxabari was the result of the success of Mao’s Long March and propaganda, which put a lot of brilliant minds in la-la land. The so called split, had next to nothing to do with it, unless you are ascribing the success of Long March to the so called split.


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> You will understand that only when you realize that , one of the major ideals of Maoism is "the violent showdown with capitalists" .... so it encourages violence like that followed by Naxalites
> 
> while revisionists held that "communism could co-exist with capitalism" which is unacceptable to Maoists ....
> 
> thats the difference


  Tell me something new.

  So, to summarize your post…you are saying…what exactly?


----------



## Phantom Lancer (Apr 17, 2009)

karnivore said:


> Names of such historians will be appreciated. Oh btw, I don’t belong to that school of apologists who find it difficult to believe that communism is good in theory, bad in practice.


FYI i think communism is neither good in theory nor practice .....



> What you are essentially saying is that, the reason behind the happy demise of the theory is, because, two grown up men disagreed on how to practice their individual interpretation of the theory, rather than the myriad limitations and contradictions within their own interpretation of the theory, or for that matter, within the original works of Marx.


->Now now .....you r contradicting yourself here .... we are talking about the wane of communism not its demise

->lol it was 2 grown men Marx and Lennin who bought out the Marxism-Leninism line of commi thinking

->Maoism was one of the major factors if not the only factor for the sino-soviet split
....
Result of the sino soviet split

->Russia sided with India ( a non commi state) during the Indo China war
-> China for the first time sided with the US
->It spawned wars in Africa and Middle east
->spawned Naxalism in India




> Soviet documents from the summer of 1969 show that the USSR had more detailed plans for a nuclear attack on China than for a nuclear attack on the United States
> Mao decided that since the Soviets were the greater threat because of their geographical proximity to China, he should seek an accommodation with the United States to confront the USSR.-wiki


now thats some series side effects ....... this *infighting *was enough to make the *communist bloc crumble .*......




> There is no denying the fact that communism in the 50s and early 60s found a poster boy in Mao, but by the end of 60s Mao himself was sidelined in his own country, thanks to Cultural revolution which resulted in massive drought in 1969.





> The Sino-Soviet Split resulted in divisions amongst communist parties around the world.Effectively, the CPC under Mao's leadership became the rallying forces of a parallel international Communist tendency .Another variant of anti-revisionist Marxism-Leninism (Hoxaism) appeared after the ideological row between the Communist Party of China and the Party of Labour of Albania in 1978
> -*courtesy wikipedia*





> Mao, however, never actively tried to be the new messiah on the block, as Stalin had tried. The post-Mao revolutions are testimony to the fact.


thats a joke



> As the Sino-Soviet Split in the international Communist movement turned toward open hostility, China portrayed itself as a leader of the underdeveloped world against the two superpowers, the United States and the Soviet Union.
> By the early 1960s, the Sino-Soviet split was a permanently established fact, cracking the bipolar system with which the Cold War began as China now saw itself competing with the Soviet Union for leadership in the Communist movement.Stalin's death in 1953 left a vacuum of power in the Communist world. Mao clearly realized that the leader of a group of countries is not a person but a country-*Wikipedia*





> Vietnam, lead by Ho Chi Minh, was modeled on Russian communism. Cuba, led by Fiedel Castro and Che Guavara, although started out as socialist movements, ultimately ended up following the Vietnam route which was largely based on Russian version of communism (collectivization etc). Even when Che decided that revolution was an exportable commodity and can be successfully exported to Bolivia, he chose the same Vietnam tactics. (His diary is testimony to that). The entire Easter Europe and some south European countries, notably Italy, by and large, subscribed to the Russian system.


i never side otherwise ..... but by no means does that dilute the effects Maoism had on Communism . But you seem to be basing your thoughts on communism on 2 or 3 grown men like Che  ????



> Chinese, influence was mostly restricted within the south eastern regions like Cambodia (Pol Pot) etc. and India and some parts of Latin America (Large part of Latin America, e.g. Argentina, Brazil, Venezuela were, however influenced by Fiedel and Che’s antics).


Dont forget the all important Middle East ...... At that time (read before the fall of USSR) , these (Africa Middle East and the Indian sub-Comtinent ) were some of the major theaters of Communism . 



> The reasons were manifold. Least of which was that Russian communism was based on a pre-existing economic structure, however fragile, while Chinese was based on practically non existent one, thanks to Chian Kai Shek. While, Russians had to figure out how to keep the existing infrastructure going and build on it, the Chinese had to build their system right from the scratch. Chinese social structure was also very different from the Russian, being an European country, and some wise guys in India felt, came close to that of India’s.


Oh ! you think Chinese were that insignificant ...... shows your ignorence of history ...... Do you know that US's defeat at the hands of Chinese during the Korean war was solely responsible for North Koreas existence today ???? it was during the 1950s .



> The point is, that the Russians and the Chinese adapted communism that best suit their own situation.


correct . But each other were fighting to make it the international communist ideology 



> Nakshalbari movement was a local movement which caught the fancy of Mr Charu Mazumdar, who thought that it provided him with perfect ingredients for his lab test. Later on it caught the fancy of some really, otherwise genius men in Kolkata, resulting in the turbulent 70s. This finally spilled over to the other parts of India. Calling this local movement turned semi mass movement, a fall out of Sino-Soviet split is really ingenious. The Sino-Soviet split had taken place long before the Naxabari movement. In fact, Mao started to drift from the Soviet ideals, even before the long march. Mr Mazumdar was one of those wise guys who thought, Chinese situation fit the Indian case suitably. Hence his experimentation.
> 
> If anything, Naxabari was the result of the success of Mao’s Long March and propaganda, which put a lot of brilliant minds in la-la land. The so called split, had next to nothing to do with it, unless you are ascribing the success of Long March to the so called split.


you dont seem to feel a need to provide any reference to your radical statements ....  



> Tell me something new.
> 
> So, to summarize your post…you are saying…what exactly?
> 
> ...


----------



## Phantom Lancer (Apr 17, 2009)

mediator said:


> I don't think Gujarat govt "instigated" any riot, the one which was "started" by a muslim mob and killed kar sevaks, who were just returning from their "yatra" from ayodhya many of whom were women and children, and murdered in a cold and calculated way!! Even Nanavati report has given the clean chit.


So the best possible to answer is ethnic cleansing of Muslims is it ??...... wow ,Mahatma Gandhi must be turning in his grave ....... No wonder countries like US consider India to be hypocritical ...... Advising non-violence to them while not following it ourselves ...... 


*www.pressnote.in/readnews.php?id=43307



> Its only normal for people to get furiated when someone kills innocent people like that returning from some "yatra" and that too "women and children" on board.
> *www.thehindu.com/2002/03/10/stories/2002031000021700.htm


Murdering a murderer makes you a murderer ...have you ever thought about that ??




> So? The truth should be eradicated from the history? I never see anyone condemning the "the chapters of mughal glorification in NCERT books"?? Imagine young children thinking that we had been mughal slaves for centuries!


There is a big difference between "glorification of Mughals" and fostering "blood lust among  children against a section of society"  
These NCERT books *dont *teach children to hate any section of the society and give them violent ideas  unlike the RSS's propaganda  books  

The first one is wrong .........but  the second one is inhumane .... anti democratic ......laying the foundation for future violence 

Your model should be Mahatma Gandhi not Palestinian terrorists



> Why do those self-certified "secularists" who don't see the 'actions' of a situation are quick to point out the 'reactions' and refer it "communal"?? This will certainly happen if those who play apathetic towards one section and favour reservation and all sorts of luxuries for another. And then the sleeping beauties, the self-proclaimed judges will christen the activists of the former section as "communal". Well, I dont see anyone shouting that "muslim reservation" is communal. Nobody even sees this as a problem. Day wont be long when people will rise and demand hindu reservation and the sleeping beauties will wake from their hibernation and then call them "communal". Can anybody stop the slaughter of goats?


Because these secularists are wise ..... they know that we are a responsible nation and have a duty of ensuring justice to all ....
which means properly conducting investigations and ensuring that all the ppl involved in violence are arrested ..... but what actually happened was the Gujarat carnage ..... people who were never involved in the train scenario were haplessly killed including many women and children .so this was a bigger atrocity (many more were killed) and had the support of ppl who were meant to ensure justice ! 


How can ppl praise and worship Gandhi while totally Binning his ideals ????


----------



## Phantom Lancer (Apr 17, 2009)

you know whats funny 

Parties sure were tripping over themselves to get back the Gandhi memorabilia  from abroad...... while in India one of the major parties has Hindutva  as one of its core ideologies ......The same ideology which was responsible for the assassination of   Mahatma Gandhi 


Nathuram Godse was an activist of the Hindu Mahasaba a Hindutva group dissolved after its leaders were charged and arrested after the assination and has surfaced recently  & was linked with the recent Malogoan blasts  . 
They were angry on the Mahatma over the Partition issue ......

if you spawn a violent group (for whatever noble reason or reaction) it ll one day turn on you ..... Pakistan has just learnt that lesson from the j&k terrorists......


----------



## Faun (Apr 17, 2009)

Phantom Lancer said:


> you know whats funny
> 
> Parties sure were tripping over themselves to get back the Gandhi memorabilia  from abroad...... while in India one of the major parties has Hindutva  as one of its core ideologies ......The same ideology which was responsible for the assassination of   Mahatma Gandhi
> 
> ...



What Nathuram did was not completely his fault. He could have killed more than one person there but why he did not ? 

Even partitioning India couldn't prevent the genocide in Pakistan and then later Bangladesh.

Gandhi Ji failed in his experiment of independence


----------



## mediator (Apr 17, 2009)

phantom said:
			
		

> So the best possible to answer is ethnic cleansing of Muslims is it ??...... wow ,Mahatma Gandhi must be turning in his grave ....... No wonder countries like US consider India to be hypocritical ...... Advising non-violence to them while not following it ourselves ......


I don't understand where it calls for the "ethnic cleansing of muslims"? Telling the children of the real history where mughals destroyed scriptures, raped women, killed infidels etc, is all part of the history. Even Quran explains in "detail" of "how" "infidels" were killed and "why" they were killed. Perhaps its time you you do lil research in that field too. If reviving the true history is offensive for you then perhaps the whole Quran would be more offensive for you. Don't you agree?

And btw, from your statement it seems you consider "countries like US", which created terror in Vietnam (biological warfare), japan (first use of nuclear bomb), Iraq (false accusation of WMD) etc, as an authority which stands tall in giving out certificates of whose sane and whose hypocritical!!!??? Congratulations!

Let peace be with Mahatma Gandhi. More material for your research ...
*www.sabha.info/history.html 




			
				phantom said:
			
		

> *Murdering a murderer makes you a murderer* ...have you ever thought about that ??


I thought you were serious in a discussion. Perhaps, you should 

* Let kasab go free. (after all death by court is also killing, its only the reason and side of morality that differentiates between a murder and justice by hanging).
* Perhaps you hould dance around with mosquitoes when they bite you and start practising non-violence

...have you ever thought about that ??




			
				phantom said:
			
		

> There is a big difference between "glorification of Mughals" and fostering "blood lust among children against a section of society"
> These NCERT books dont teach children to hate any section of the society and give them violent ideas unlike the RSS's propaganda books
> 
> The first one is wrong .........but the second one is inhumane .... anti democratic ......laying the foundation for future violence
> ...


History is a subject which teaches about past. If thought in a little detail, it can also prove as a subject from which the mankind can learn from it so that mistakes are not repeated. Judging by those mistakes we learn ...

* Cast system has been distorted and blown out of proportion and now people are learning that the orginal cast system was by "karma" which is logical and analogous to the classes of "scientists, teachers, clercs etc"
* Islamists have tried to impose "sharia" whenever they were in majority. Talk about their secularity wherever they are in majority.
* Mughals destroyed temples, scriptures etc. So, IMO, this should be covered extensively so that the history does not repeat itself.

I don't think RSS is teaching them to "kill" muslims. If thats the case then ofcourse that should be dealt with.  And btw, isn't blood lust developed if a person witnesses the slaughter of animals like goats since childhood? It seems you cannot identify how history can be useful and what is harmful. If it really irks some people like you, then perhaps they should stop expounding Babri drama, godhra etc which again were "reactions" and not "actions" and certainly not like the 1984 state sponsored sikh murders.



			
				phantom said:
			
		

> The first one is wrong .........but the second one is inhumane .... anti democratic ......laying the foundation for future violence
> 
> Your model should be Mahatma Gandhi not Palestinian terrorists


Read the links I gave and revamp your ideologies. I'm not saying Gandhi did nuthing. But certainly he is not my "model" or a "mahatma" to be revered as. On the contrary I find it funny of how "non-violence" could have stopped Britishers who could have looted easily. Who could have stopped them if all had continued singing the "non-violence" song? Bhagat singh, rajguru, sukhdev etc were termed as extermists in NCERT books, were the ones who instilled terror in Britishers. Can you live in Pakistan where Talibs are terrorising sikhs, hindus and all the kaafirs?




			
				phantom said:
			
		

> Because these secularists are *wise* ..... they know that we are a responsible nation and have a duty of ensuring justice to all ....


If stupidity and hypocrisy is synonmous with wiseness in ur dictionary, then count me in.



			
				phantom said:
			
		

> which means *properly conducting investigations and ensuring that all the ppl involved in violence are arrested* ..... but what actually happened was the Gujarat carnage ..... people who were never involved in the train scenario were haplessly killed including many women and children .so this was a bigger atrocity (many more were killed) and *had the support of ppl who were meant to ensure justice !*


Sure, we are still to see 1984 riot accused and those accused are given clean chit. The statement doesn't end up with "are arrested", but with properly tried. We all know bt Afzal!

The people who were killed were victims of "typical riots", not "state sponsored" like the 1984 one. Weren't hindus killed in Gujarat? Perhaps you need to study nanavati report.




			
				article said:
			
		

> Twenty-eight persons have been arrested in connection with the train attack, *including the president of the Godhra Municipal Corporation, Mohammed Kalota, and corporators Bilal Haji and Farookh Bhana. Others arrested include Salim Sheik, Razak Doongeria, Kankatta and Altaf*, who the district police chief, Rajeev Bhargava, *said were all known for communal activities.*


Source already given!



			
				muslim_ex-cop said:
			
		

> “They were just mad people who had nothing to do with the BJP. I am thankful that God gave me presence of mind on that day. Had I opened fire with my service revolver, I would have been lynched.”


 *www.pressnote.in/readnews.php?id=43307

I think you are not reading the links I'm putting forward and just opining silly.




			
				phantom said:
			
		

> How can ppl praise and worship Gandhi while totally Binning his ideals ????


People need to praise and worship those who actually bled for their country and not the ones who did politics. No wonder ignorant INdians perceive Raul Vinci as their future and don't even know about the plight of the soldiers who are bleeding 24*7 on the borders. To make the matters worse our beloved UPA has took one step beyond. Our true heroes like Mohan Chand Sharma get disgrace and terrorists the sympathy of Human Rights activists? Petty politics and undermining of our true heroes.

Learn history, let the mistakes be not repeated.




			
				phantom said:
			
		

> you know whats funny
> 
> Parties sure were tripping over themselves to get back the Gandhi memorabilia from abroad...... while in India one of the major parties has Hindutva as one of its core ideologies ......The same ideology which was responsible for the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi
> 
> ...


You know whats funny? Its your ignorance! Mahatma and nehru were both stupid. For their own political agendas they partitioned India. And now we are witnessing Kashmir issue, terrorism over it and what not? Did these Gandhi oligarchs think the Hindu-Muslim divide could not be contained? If yes, then perhaps we need better people than those who still think Nehru-Gandhi are our "models". 





			
				phantom said:
			
		

> if you spawn a violent group (for whatever noble reason or reaction) it ll one day turn on you ..... Pakistan has just learnt that lesson from the j&k terrorists......


First learn the difference between action and a reaction. Then learn the difference bet. "Protecting history" and "terrorism". 


Here's more on UPA's "behaving" policies ... 



			
				artcile said:
			
		

> 'Muslims must have first claim on resources'
> 
> Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said plans for minorities, particularly Muslims, must have the ‘first claim’ on resources so that benefits of development reach them equitably.
> 
> "We will have to devise innovative plans to ensure that minorities, particularly the Muslim minority, are empowered to share equitably the fruits of development. These must have the first claim on resources," he said in his address at the 52nd meeting of the National Development Council (NDC) in New Delhi.


*www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=77972

Again, I fail to see anyone calling this move as "communal". Had it been hindus first, people would have roared calling it "communal".


* Sikhs getting slaughtered in thousand = A MISTAKE.
* Hindus getting killed in Kashmir = Political problem.
* Muslims getting killed by a few hundred = Holocaust.
* Poor protestors getting shot in WB under Left Govt = Misunderstanding.
* Talking about Hindus and Hinduism = Communal.
* Talking about Muslims and Islam = Secular.
* Kargil Attack = Government failure.
* Chinese invasion in 1962 = Unfortunate betrayal.
* Reservations in every school and college on caste lines = Secular.
* Reservations in Minority institutions = ?
* Fake encounters in Gujarat [Sohrabuddin] = BJP Communalism.
* Fake encounters under Cong-NCP in Maharashtra [Khwaja Younus] = Police atrocity.
* Banning Parzania in Gujarat = Communal.
* Banning Da Vinci Code and Jo Bole So Nihaal = Secular.
* BJP freeing 3 terrorists to save 100 Indian hostages = Shameful
* Congress freeing 4 militants to save just a life of one Daughter of its minister in Kashmir [Rubina Sayed] Political dilemma = Natural Dilemma
* Attack on Parliament = BJP ineptitude.
* Not hanging Afzal Guru the mastermind despite Supreme Court orders = Humanity and Political dilemma.
* BJP questioning Islamic Terrorist Forces = Communal.
* Congress questioning Lord Ram existence = Clerical Error. 

Watch = Become terrorist get paid by Government
Congress stopping the release of a film on 1984 anti-sikh state sponsored terrorism


----------



## karnivore (Apr 17, 2009)

First, whats with you and colour.


Phantom Lancer said:


> FYI i think communism is neither good in theory nor practice .....


  Not that I need that information, but this comment explains a lot about your (mis)understanding of communism. 


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> ->Now now .....you r contradicting yourself here .... we are talking about the wane of communism not its demise


  So we are playing the game of rhetoric now. O goodie..what’s the prize.


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> ->lol it was 2 grown men Marx and Lennin who bought out the Marxism-Leninism line of commi thinking


  *sigh*. When you don’t understand what your opponent is saying, why do you even bother to reply.


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> ->Maoism was one of the major factors if not the only factor for the sino-soviet split


  Your lack of understanding is amazing. Maoism is the ONLY factor for the Sino-soviet split. However Sino-soviet split was not the reason of demise…oops…waning of communism. That’s my point.


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> Result of the sino soviet split
> 
> ->Russia sided with India ( a non commi state) during the Indo China war
> -> China for the first time sided with the US
> ...


  Correct, correct, semi-correct, wrong.


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> this *infighting *was enough to make the *communist bloc crumble .*......


  The fact that Russia was choking on its own weight (read economic disaster, right from NEP to perestroika) was not ? The fact that, Russian system did not give freedom of thought, was not? The fact that the party would ruthlessly implement its policies, was not? The fact that all dissentient voices would disappear in the middle of the night, never to be seen again, was not? The fact that Russia bled profusely in Afganistan was not ? The fact that millions perished in China due to Mao’s idiotic experiment, was not?

  But it was ONLY the “infighting” that “enough to make the communist bloc crumble”…what after 40 odd years since the split ? Was it the infighting that lead Deng Xiaoping to open up the economy and heralding age of capitalism in China ? Was it this infighting that forced Gorbachev to introduce glasnost and perestroika ? Was it this infighting that resulted in the demise…I hope I am using the right word here…of East Germany, without a bullet being fired ? Was it this infighting that resulted in breaking up of other Warshaw pact countries ?

Bah...


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> thats a joke


  I love to jest. But do provide some evidence, other than Wikipedia, where the Chinese under Mao, funded, trained and/or actively participated in exporting their brand of communism to any other part of the globe, expect of course, Cambodia. Mao’s influence was restricted at intellectual level. It almost never came down to practice. That’s the point I am making.


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> but by no means does that dilute the effects Maoism had on Communism .


  It by every mean dilutes your contention that the reason of demise…oops again, waning of communism is the sino-soviet split. When communism, as was practiced (note please, not theorized) had next to no influence of Mao, then it stands to reason, that the so called split had almost no influence in practice of communism as well. 

  Yes, I would agree that it resulted in camps within the communist, but that did not result in the waning…yeppiee… I got that right…of communism. Because, even after the split, the world continued to be represented by US, as the bourgeois and the other by Russia, as the proletariats. (Yeah, I know Nixon and his great Chinese game, you don’t have to remind me that)


			
				 Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> But you seem to be basing your thoughts on communism on 2 or 3 grown men like Che


  Nope.


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> Dont forget the all important Middle East ...... At that time (read before the fall of USSR) , these (Africa Middle East and the Indian sub-Comtinent ) were some of the major theaters of Communism .


  Cold war era politics. More about appeasing one super power to counter the other. 


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> karnivore said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  Eh..? Save your history lessons and start taking lessons in comprehension. Which part of the para that you have quoted you don’t get.

  In that para I have tried to explain, in brief, why Mao had to part ways with the Russian system and why although intellectually intriguing, Maoism failed to capture the imagination of the rest of the world, particularly Europe, as did Leninism or Stalinism.


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> But each other were fighting to make it the international communist ideology


  You probably don’t know, that Russia and China had border problem long before Mao arrived at the scene. After revolution, Mao inherited that border problem which also resulted in Russian army marching well into China. The so called fighting was not just ideological, but purely territorial as well.


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> you dont seem to feel a need to provide any reference to your radical statements ....


  By reference…you mean on-line references ? Nope I don’t have any. Only books and half the names I have forgotten. Most of the books were by Bengali writers.



			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> That Mao's ideology is fully reflected in the Naxalite movement .....


  Agree


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> …which by itself shows the effect sino-soviet split had on all communist nations


  Disagree, and I have given reasons.


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> Let me remind you that in your last post you gave congress as the reason for the birth of naxalite movement


  Feel free to show me where…do quote that part. Then hopefully you will apologize for lying.


			
				Phantom Lancer said:
			
		

> .... learnt something new now have nt you ??


  …and that is, never try to reason with a…well…nevermind. But one thing. If you are trying to look for inconsistencies in my arguments, you will have to do more than just quote wiki or some random blog.


----------



## Phantom Lancer (Apr 17, 2009)

ichi said:


> What Nathuram did was not completely his fault. He could have killed more than one person there but why he did not ?


what do you mean by that ? Do you know that Godse made 2-3 failed assassination attempts before actually managing to assassinate Gandhi ??? His target is obvious is nt it .....



> Even partitioning India couldn't prevent the genocide in Pakistan and then later Bangladesh.
> 
> Gandhi Ji failed in his experiment of independence


That by no means justifies assassinating the mahatma does it ?

He is after all credited with getting us our independence ......... atleast now we have a part of India to ourself .......


----------



## Phantom Lancer (Apr 17, 2009)

ok ppl stop getting emotional ..... this is just a debate  

i am going to stop here ........ we are getting into dangerous territory

 mediator has started name calling some leaders here .....Now i remember reading a news article where a man from banglore was arrested for posting stuff that some people (dont know who ?) deemed offensive towards the Maharashtrian king Shivaji ...... so it best that i bow out here ....(google search - man arrested for slurring against Shivaji on orkut)
.and the sad part was that the arrested man was innocent .....so lets not go too far . 


PS : if your appetite for a  debate has nt been vetted yet  karnivore and mediator  please feel free to PM me your IM id ..... its easir to carry on long debates on IM rather than in Digit ...... the server is slow a lot of times and it keeps logging you out every few mins of perceived inactivity(yeah i know vbb) ..... and i dont think anybody is going to be convinced by the other's argument  ...

E-Peace     
outta here


----------



## mediator (Apr 18, 2009)

phantom said:
			
		

> mediator has started name calling some leaders here .....Now i remember reading a news article where a man from banglore *was arrested* for posting stuff that some people (dont know who ?) deemed offensive towards the Maharashtrian king Shivaji





			
				phantom said:
			
		

> That by no means justifies assassinating the mahatma does it ?
> 
> He is after all credited with *getting us our independence* ......... atleast now we have a part of India to ourself .......


I believe we'll achieve independence when we'll get rid of gandhi dynasty which is preoccupied in ruining our nation. Atleast you agree on the scope of "freedom of speech". Politicians question the existence of Ram, NCERT calls our true freedom fighters as "terrorists" and here we are, the helpless citizens who can't even speak the "truth" and term the activities of Nehru-Gandhi as stupidities. "Stupid" isn't an extreme word or an abuse and I believe is certainly not name calling. I believe speaking truth has become a crime in our own country.

So if you want to stop, then just say so. Don't give absurd reasons. Nobody is forcing you to continue, atleast not me!  

PS: the server has an option (yeah u shud know => "remember me"). It helps u in staying connected at all times and from all ISPs.

Yep, thats right, no hard feelings n have phun!


----------



## Faun (Apr 18, 2009)

Phantom Lancer said:


> what do you mean by that ? Do you know that Godse made 2-3 failed assassination attempts before actually managing to assassinate Gandhi ??? His target is obvious is nt it .....
> 
> That by no means justifies assassinating the mahatma does it ?
> 
> He is after all credited with getting us our independence ......... atleast now we have a part of India to ourself .......



So you said that we were given India as alms ? India was always a land of its people. There was no need to separate it. India has suffered the most from it.

I don't believe in all that history hogwash. Remember history is written by those who were in Power. 

I am not justifying Mahatama's assassination, I am saying that Nathuram did was not out of personal grudge.
-----------------------------------------
Posted again:
-----------------------------------------


Phantom Lancer said:


> ok ppl stop getting emotional ..... this is just a debate
> 
> i am going to stop here ........ we are getting into dangerous territory
> 
> ...



Yes, please STOP or internet police will put us in jail for name calling leaders...lol


----------



## afonofa (Apr 18, 2009)

Let me just get things back on track a little by saying that if the NDA does not come to power this time, then advani's dream of becoming PM of India will remain just a dream. By the next elections, he will be too old to be PM, if not plagued by ill health or losing power to modi or whatever the reason, this is his last chance and I'm going to vote to *DENY* him that chance. 

Congress is the lesser evil.

Jai Hind! Jai Ho!


----------



## karnivore (Apr 18, 2009)

^^ I like the way you think. 

But this is India. Always expect the unexpected.


----------



## The Sorcerer (Apr 18, 2009)

Bummer! I see lot of people here making multiple quotes and making lot of points. Its too bad that majority of the Indians- irrespective of religion and caste (however if people are too uneducated and/or incompetent to understand the meaning of democracy that's their call- one cant make horse out of donkeys) Question to all of you- what is the purpose of this topic? Because I just see bunch of geniuses out here making a verbal squabble but the so called debate is going on circles. You will see tonnes of these discussions and one fine day this topic will die- and the last comment will end up like "But this is India". Excuse me but its people who made that kind of reputation. We as Indians want to be International recognized but as I said before- we barely care about basic and general hygiene when we are out or somebody's property, how can we run a type of government where it requires people to have a level of discipline? *Majority of the argument itself lacks any form of ethics and the topic is carried away*. You want change? Bring the change? Countries like United States didnt become super power soon after they got their independence- it taken them centuries. Nobody said that running a multi- cultural country like India will be an easy task. But if we dont follow certain set of basic ethics in our day-to-day lives, politicians will merely state the same behaviour and facts that we as majority do. We also have a bad habit to highlight bad things and ignore the good things that has happened- so we see nothing but bad things.


----------



## Phantom Lancer (Apr 18, 2009)

mediator said:


> So if you want to stop, then just say so. Don't give absurd reasons. Nobody is forcing you to continue, atleast not me!
> 
> PS: the server has an option (yeah u shud know => "remember me"). It helps u in staying connected at all times and from all ISPs.
> 
> Yep, thats right, no hard feelings n have phun!




1) lol if i wanted to stop i would nt have given u ppl an option to catch me on IM .... i find it easier to have such long drawn debates on IM rather than on Bulletin boards ..... 

2) I joined Think digit quiet recently ....... but i am no stranger to VBB forums ..... i have been a prolific poster in many other forums which use VBulltin board ...... and i know about the remember me option ....... but sometimes it so happens that after i have been logged out while typing ....... and relogin to submit my post .... my post just vanishes .... it has happened to me a few times ...... only on Think Digit mind u ....  so the debate aint over yet ..... i am just tired of making huge posts ..... 

 Dream on  ............ i never back out of a debate


----------



## Phantom Lancer (Apr 18, 2009)

ichi said:


> So you said that we were given India as alms ? India was always a land of its people. There was no need to separate it. India has suffered the most from it.



Nope ........ If there were no Gandhi or Nehru we would not have any part of India ....... Do you honestly think that the disorganized rag tag Indian Guerrilla army struck fear in the hearts of British ..... the British had experience fighting  much deadlier foes in other parts of the world .....  like the Irish Republican Army (IRA) .... among the many people they managed to assassinate , was  the then Indian Viceroy Mountbatten ....  were the indian Guerrilla disorganized as they were, half as effective ??

The then Congress was the only reason Britain left India .......If Gandhi felt the need for the separation we should respect it .....if not then BJP should have got us our Freedom lol




> I don't believe in all that history hogwash. Remember history is written by those who were in Power.


so you automatically assume they are lying ???? ......
being the only people who have actually seen it and recorded it , their sources are quiet authentic (and the only one which can be relied upon )....... and we dont need history to tell us what happened 50 years back ..... people of that time still live today



you would rather believe in your own ideas and assumptions of what happened back then rather than history written by these victors ???
i guess you have seen it all with your own eyes ??  1000 year old man are u ???


----------



## karnivore (Apr 18, 2009)

The Sorcerer said:


> Bummer! I see lot of people here making multiple quotes and making lot of points. Its too bad that majority of the Indians- irrespective of religion and caste (however if people are too uneducated and/or incompetent to understand the meaning of democracy that's their call- one cant make horse out of donkeys) Question to all of you- what is the purpose of this topic? Because I just see bunch of geniuses out here making a verbal squabble but the so called debate is going on circles. You will see tonnes of these discussions and one fine day this topic will die- and the last comment will end up like "But this is India". Excuse me but its people who made that kind of reputation. We as Indians want to be International recognized but as I said before- we barely care about basic and general hygiene when we are out or somebody's property, how can we run a type of government where it requires people to have a level of discipline? Majority of the argument itself lacks any form of ethics and the topic is carried away. You want change? Bring the change? Countries like United States didnt become super power soon after they got their independence- it taken them centuries. Nobody said that running a multi- cultural country like India will be an easy task. But if we dont follow certain set of basic ethics in our day-to-day lives, politicians will merely state the same behaviour and facts that we as majority do. *We also have a bad habit to highlight bad things and ignore the good things that has happened*- so we see nothing but bad things.


Bah....word salad. Regarding the bold part, it is called introspection, or self-criticism, but hell, you would rather gloat on (non)shinning India, while 50% of our population toil to barely survive.


----------



## Phantom Lancer (Apr 18, 2009)

ichi said:


> I am not justifying Mahatama's assassination, I am saying that Nathuram did was not out of personal grudge.



so what Godse did was far worse ..... he killed a peaceful man for a flimsy reason (because he believed in a different  ideology ?? )



> Yes, please STOP or internet police will put us in jail for name calling leaders...lol


^ really immature ...... 

 i am sure you have forgotten that unregistered guests can read our posts ..... its a possibility that a party supporter or a worker stumbles upon that posts .... If you want to stick your neck out and get effed up ..... be my guest , its your life .... i prefer to play it safe  

PS : If you had read that news piece you would have realized that they can put you in jail for no reason at all , based on mere suspicion .....


----------



## mediator (Apr 18, 2009)

phantom said:
			
		

> 1) lol if i wanted to stop i would nt have given u ppl an option to catch me on IM .... i find it easier have such long drawn debates on IM rather than on Bulletin boards .....


Why did you even bother posting then? Couldn't you read my earlier posts? Perhaps u cud have left ur email id from the start. What a joke!

Long drawn "debates on IM"??? Do u even understand what a "debate" is? Perhaps u r glutton for a "chat". Did u really think I was having this "online forum conversation" just with you? Imagine Kapil Sibal tellin Arun Jaitley, "Hey we can talk bt 1984 sikh issue on IM". 




			
				phantom said:
			
		

> 2) I joined Think digit quiet recently ....... but i am no stranger to VBB forums ..... i have been a prolific poster in many other forums which use VBulltin board ...... and i know about the remember me option ....... but sometimes it so happens that after i have been logged out while typing ....... and relogin to submit my post .... my post just vanishes .... it has happened to me a few times ...... only on Think Digit mind u ....


Install Linux  (just kiddin).... & .... You should stop explaining yourself on useless things.



			
				phantom said:
			
		

> keep dreaming ............ i never back out of a debate


I'm pleased! Welcome back, reply to my unreplied post. 




			
				phantom said:
			
		

> Nope ........ *If there were no Gandhi or Nehru we would not have any part of India* ....... Do you honestly think that the disorganized rag tag Indian Guerrilla army struck fear in the hearts of British ..... the British had experience fighting much deadlier foes in other parts of the world ..... like the Irish Republican Army (IRA) .... among the many people they managed to assassinate was the then Indian Viceroy Mountbatten .... were the indian Guerrilla disorganized as they were half as effective ??
> 
> The then Congress was *the only reason* Britain left India .......If Gandhi felt the need for the separation we should respect it .....*if not then BJP should have got us our Freedom lol*


Yes, I'm sure it was becoz of congress.  I would only like to ask, "how old are u?".

Do u know "anything" about the impact of the world wars on Britishers at the time of Indian Independence?

"BJP should have got us freedom"??????? Ah well,

Here's some timeline you should mug up to perform better in you school.
*www.bjp.org/content/view/436/289/

Now stop explaining urself and opining silly.


----------



## The Sorcerer (Apr 18, 2009)

Politics and democracy is something which should be discussed between people who know atleast something about our country's history- and someone who has some level of IQ enough to make a decent debate- unlike some of the politicians out there. Phantom should refrain himself from converting a good discussion into fantasy land politics . Ofcourse if we all had a face to face debate, some of us would be saying something else .


----------



## Phantom Lancer (Apr 18, 2009)

You honestly think anybody else has the patients to go through the massive posts that you and I are making  ???   kid yourself
  Well I guess you think you hit home run with your last post …..  Let me shoot that thought down for your ….. here comes another big one 







mediator said:


> I don't understand where it calls for the "ethnic cleansing of muslims"? Telling the children of the real history where mughals destroyed scriptures, raped women, killed infidels etc, is all part of the history. Even Quran explains in "detail" of "how" "infidels" were killed and "why" they were killed. Perhaps its time you you do lil research in that field too. If reviving the true history is offensive for you then perhaps the whole Quran would be more offensive for you. Don't you agree?


  Excuse me 
  Where have I said that its offensive to me ?? 
  So what are you suggesting ?? we punish the modern day Indian muslims for what a foreign muslim ruler did hundreds of years ago ….. that’s the ideology RSS go by ……All muslims are evil because few of em were villains 
  The point of studying history is not to get angry over what somebody did 100s of years ago and then go about killing ppl quiet unconnected with the incident  living in the present …..



> And btw, from your statement it seems you consider "countries like US", which created terror in Vietnam (biological warfare), japan (first use of nuclear bomb), Iraq (false accusation of WMD) etc, as an authority which stands tall in giving out certificates of whose sane and whose hypocritical!!!??? Congratulations!


  Congratulations to you  …. You are very quick to jump to conclusions …… I meant no such thing
  What I implied by my message is  that India has been lecturing US about non-violence for a long time …. But when faced with a similar problem we find that we r no better  than the US which is sad ……



  Let peace be with Mahatma Gandhi. More material for your research ...
*www.sabha.info/history.html 




> I thought you were serious in a discussion. Perhaps, you should
> 
> * Let kasab go free. (after all death by court is also killing, its only the reason and side of morality that differentiates between a murder and justice by hanging).
> * Perhaps you hould dance around with mosquitoes when they bite you and start practising non-violence
> ...


* I am against capital punishment
  *You should look up the word “Humanity” lol




> History is a subject which teaches about past. If thought in a little detail, it can also prove as a subject from which the mankind can learn from it so that mistakes are not repeated. Judging by those mistakes we learn ...
> 
> * Cast system has been distorted and blown out of proportion and now people are learning that the orginal cast system was by "karma" which is logical and analogous to the classes of "scientists, teachers, clercs etc"
> * Islamists have tried to impose "sharia" whenever they were in majority. Talk about their secularity wherever they are in majority.
> * Mughals destroyed temples, scriptures etc. So, IMO, this should be covered extensively so that the history does not repeat itself.


  Wow now you are justifying castes based society   ……… look what happened because ppl followed it …. India is divided left right and center .
  ->Do you know that Turkey is majority muslim  and a secular country J …….. ofcourse u don’t 
  ->So if Muslims impose Sharia …. Hindus should impose Hindutva ?  …. Nice reasoning ….. 
  ->It is covered as much as its required …… do you,  like RSS want to manufacture more Muslim atrocity ?? 


> I don't think RSS is teaching them to "kill" muslims. If thats the case then ofcourse that should be dealt with. And btw, isn't blood lust developed if a person witnesses the slaughter of animals like goats since childhood? It seems you cannot identify how history can be useful and what is harmful. If it really irks some people like you, then perhaps they should stop expounding Babri drama, godhra etc which again were "reactions" and not "actions" and certainly not like the 1984 state sponsored sikh murders.


  Killing animals for the table (eating) ….. is not slaughter …. That’s RSS propaganda ……. 
  1.Humans are Omnivores 
  2.From ancient times (vedic times) a section of Indian Hindus ate Goat , Deer and also cow meat (like pointed previously in one of the threads in this forum)
  3.Killing animals and Humans for no reason is slaughter ……. So both Babhri and Godhra were slaughters / genocide/ethnic cleansing …..




> Sure, we are still to see 1984 riot accused and those accused are given clean chit. The statement doesn't end up with "are arrested", but with properly tried. We all know bt Afzal!
> 
> The people who were killed were victims of "typical riots", not "state sponsored" like the 1984 one. Weren't hindus killed in Gujarat? Perhaps you need to study nanavati report.


  The reaction was worse than the actions ……. Instead of Govt arresting the culprits , they instigated a mob to attack Muslims who were  uninvolved in the first incident …..




> I think you are not reading the links I'm putting forward and just opining silly.


  Nope I am reading …. Sometimes I forget to make a point 
  So you are just showing me a (one of)  example ?? how many such muslims are in with BJP ? 1 , 2 3 ??  …. That guy joined BJP for power ….[ He was retired after all] ……. and Bjp wanted an image makeover as the article itself says



> People need to praise and worship those who actually bled for their country and not the ones who did politics. No wonder ignorant INdians perceive Raul Vinci as their future and don't even know about the plight of the soldiers who are bleeding 24*7 on the borders. To make the matters worse our beloved UPA has took one step beyond. Our true heroes like Mohan Chand Sharma get disgrace and terrorists the sympathy of Human Rights activists? Petty politics and undermining of our true heroes.


  What are you talking about  ?? Sharma is a much decorated police officer and has won seven gallantry medals including a President of India's medal …… is this digrace to you ??

  I still maintain that without we would not have freedom without those non-voilent freedom fighters ….. 





> You know whats funny? Its your ignorance! Mahatma and nehru were both stupid. For their own political agendas they partitioned India. And now we are witnessing Kashmir issue, terrorism over it and what not? Did these Gandhi oligarchs think the Hindu-Muslim divide could not be contained? If yes, then perhaps we need better people than those who still think Nehru-Gandhi are our "models".


  What did Gandhi and Nehru get from partitioning India ? …. Don’t make such random statements  




> First learn the difference between action and a reaction. Then learn the difference bet. "Protecting history" and "terrorism".
> 
> 
> Here's more on UPA's "behaving" policies ...
> ...


  Quoting from your own link 

  [FONT=&quot]“Last month, the Prime Minister favoured *‘fair share’* for minorities in government and private jobs as he spoke at the meeting of the National Commission for Minorities.”[/FONT]




> * Sikhs getting slaughtered in thousand = A MISTAKE.
> * Hindus getting killed in Kashmir = Political problem.
> * Muslims getting killed by a few hundred = Holocaust.
> * Poor protestors getting shot in WB under Left Govt = Misunderstanding.
> ...


  I do not subscribe to any of this ?? and neither do any of the people whos side I am taking (I am not talking about political parties ofcourse) 

  You make up (or pick it up from some propaganda site) something and want me to explain that ??


----------



## Phantom Lancer (Apr 18, 2009)

mediator said:


> Why did you even bother posting then? Couldn't you read my earlier posts? Perhaps u cud have left ur email id from the start. What a joke!


Dont act like a n00b .... leaving your email id in a public forum ???

How difficult is it for you to PM me your id 



> Long drawn "debates on IM"??? Do u even understand what a "debate" is? Perhaps u r glutton for a "chat". Did u really think I was having this "online forum conversation" just with you? Imagine Kapil Sibal tellin Arun Jaitley, "Hey we can talk bt 1984 sikh issue on IM".


lol like i said before nobody has the patience to go through our massive posts .... rofl



> Install Linux  (just kiddin).... & .... You should stop explaining yourself on useless things.


Dual booter
whatever



> I'm pleased! Welcome back, reply to my unreplied post.


Aye Aye cap'n a big one is waiting for you 




> Yes, I'm sure it was becoz of congress.  I would only like to ask, "how old are u?".
> 
> "BJP should have got us freedom"??????? Ah well,
> 
> ...


So Advani and AB Vajpaye and all those "young  guns" in the RSS were born after the independence were they   


BJP conviniently appeared only after the independence .........even though its founders were very much alive during the 1940s ... y did they not start it before ?? 

RSS was founded in 1925 well before the independence .... thought their efforts towards the freedom struggle is almost NIL




> Do u know "anything" about the impact of the world wars on Britishers at the time of Indian Independence?


At the outbreak of World War II, the Indian army numbered 205,000 men. Later on during World War II the Indian Army would become the largest *all-volunteer* force in history, rising to over 2.5 million men in size. These forces included tank, artillery and airborne forces. In matters of administration, weapons, training, and equipment, the Indian Army had *considerable independence*; for example, prior to the war the Indian Army adopted the Vickers-Berthier (VB) light machine gun instead of the Bren gun of the British Army, while continuing to manufacture and issue the older SMLE No. 1 Mk III rifle during World War II, instead of the No.4 Mk I Lee-Enfield issued to British Army forces

and do you have any idea about Congress's role in limiting India's participation in the WWII role


----------



## Faun (Apr 18, 2009)

Phantom Lancer said:


> Nope ........ If there were no Gandhi or Nehru we would not have any part of India ....... Do you honestly think that the disorganized rag tag Indian Guerrilla army struck fear in the hearts of British ..... the British had experience fighting  much deadlier foes in other parts of the world .....  like the Irish Republican Army (IRA) .... among the many people they managed to assassinate , was  the then Indian Viceroy Mountbatten ....  were the indian Guerrilla disorganized as they were, half as effective ??



Gandhi and Nehru were not the only reason we got our independence. There were lot of people who worked out for our freedom (Outside India and Inside India).

In fact with Nehru came the dirty politics in India. Because of Gandhi we are suffering from terrorism created by Pakistan.

It were Hindu people whom he used for that purpose, obviously Hindus never wanted Pakistan but they had to concede to the will of Gandhi Ji. 



Phantom Lancer said:


> The then Congress was the only reason Britain left India .......If Gandhi felt the need for the separation we should respect it .....if not then BJP should have got us our Freedom lol


I don't respect his need for separation. I regret his decision, first Pakistan then Bangladesh. Do you know how much hatred is there in Pakistan and Bangladesh for us ? 

You know when you created a separate country for people of another faith then ultimately everyone cried for their own separate state.

It was a cascading failure.



Phantom Lancer said:


> so you automatically assume they are lying ???? ......
> being the only people who have actually seen it and recorded it , their sources are quiet authentic (and the only one which can be relied upon )....... and we dont need history to tell us what happened 50 years back ..... people of that time still live today


"being the only people who have actually seen it and recorded it"
This answers my question well 
 "people of that time still live today"
Thank you but they got the same fodder then what we are getting now.

I don't assume, but I certainly look from my point of view.



Phantom Lancer said:


> you would rather believe in your own ideas and assumptions of what happened back then rather than history written by these victors ???
> i guess you have seen it all with your own eyes ??  1000 year old man are u ???


Better than spoon feeding. I don't believe until I have seen the both sides and taken a long break


----------



## Faun (Apr 18, 2009)

Phantom Lancer said:


> so what Godse did was far worse ..... he killed a peaceful man for a flimsy reason (because he believed in a different  ideology ?? )


Well...atleast he was not a silent assassin...you know hitman...Martin Luther King. There is a threshold for every person.

I am sure Gandhi Ji is in Heaven away from miseries of material world.



Phantom Lancer said:


> ^ really immature ......


trolled 



Phantom Lancer said:


> i am sure you have forgotten that unregistered guests can read our posts ..... its a possibility that a party supporter or a worker stumbles upon that posts .... If you want to stick your neck out and get effed up ..... be my guest , its your life .... i prefer to play it safe


You better stop using INTERNET.



Phantom Lancer said:


> PS : If you had read that news piece you would have realized that they can put you in jail for no reason at all , based on mere suspicion .....


Yeah, but why so serious when anyone can be picked without a reason ? Waise bhi politics mein jaane ke liye pehla kadam jail hai


----------



## Faun (Apr 18, 2009)

Phantom Lancer said:


> Wow now you are justifying castes based society   ……… look what happened because ppl followed it …. India is divided left right and center .


You obviously dont know what you are talking about 



Phantom Lancer said:


> Killing animals for the table (eating) ….. is not slaughter ….


It's slaughter when sacrificing animal during birth of Child and some festival.
It's slaughter when human have a choice to save some animal.



Phantom Lancer said:


> 2.From ancient times (vedic times) *a section of Indian Hindus* ate Goat , Deer and also cow meat (like pointed previously in one of the threads in this forum)


See...a section of Hindus. Not all. I will be delighted if you can give me exact verses in vedas


----------



## Phantom Lancer (Apr 18, 2009)

ichi said:


> You obviously dont know what you are talking about


random statements without any reference /reasoning / logic is not considered credible in a debate .....



> It's slaughter when sacrificing animal during birth of Child and some festival.
> It's slaughter when human have a choice to save some animal.


yeah .... and whos doing that ?




> See...a section of Hindus. Not all. I will be delighted if you can give me exact verses in vedas


my dear  i said "since vedic times ..... "

Vedic times is a period in history  .....ok ?



> The concept of vegetarianism is recent (less than 2000 years old). *The historical accounts recorded in the Ramayana, Mahabharata and the Puranas depict people as non-vegetarian*. Hinduism accepts the law of nature that one life is the food for another. However, Hinduism accepts that just as the mind affects the body (you want to lift your hand and your body does it), the body also affects the mind. The food eaten affects the organization and type of thoughts. For example, eating stolen food has been found to make the mind morally weak. Similarly, different types of food cause different effects in the mind. Non-vegetarian diet has been found to cause a condition called "rajotamas" - a mixture of delusion and hyperactivity. This is an undesirable condition for aspirants of God. A vegetarian diet aids control of the mind and religious study. For this reason, modern Hinduism advises a vegetarian diet to most spiritual aspirants.






> There is both literary and archaeological  evidence that attests to the slaughter as well as consumption of cows. In both  the _Bhagavata__ Purana_15and the _Ramayana_,16 there  is a discussion of _go-vadha_ (‘cow slaughter’),  which is seen as one of the symptoms of _Kaliyuga_. Throughout the Vedic period the cow was venerated and regarded as a divinity, yet throughout the period the cow was killed on several occasions and particularly in _Sraddhas__, _for a  distinguished guest in the _Madhuparka__,_ and in the _Astilka__ Sraddha._17Moreover, archaeological evidence affirms the literary references  vis-à-vis the slaughter of cows.18


-----------------------------------------
Posted again:
-----------------------------------------


ichi said:


> You better stop using INTERNET.



thank you for your concern ....... but i think u should be more worried about yourself not about others


----------



## karnivore (Apr 18, 2009)

> ...Hinduism accepts that just as the mind affects the body (you want to lift your hand and your body does it), the body also affects the mind. The food eaten affects the organization and type of thoughts. For example, *eating stolen food has been found to make the mind morally weak.* Similarly, different types of food cause different effects in the mind. *Non-vegetarian diet has been found to cause a condition called "rajotamas" - a mixture of delusion and hyperactivity*. This is an undesirable condition for aspirants of God. A vegetarian diet aids control of the mind and religious study. For this reason, modern Hinduism advises a vegetarian diet to most spiritual aspirants.


I heard plenty of BS on this forum. But this has to be somewhere at the top of dung.


----------



## Phantom Lancer (Apr 18, 2009)

karnivore said:


> I heard plenty of BS on this forum. But this has to be somewhere at the top of dung.



lucky for you i found this at the site from which i quoted the text 


> *How qualified are you to write this FAQ ? Can I ask you more questions ?*
> 
> I am not an authority on Hinduism, nor am I well versed with the texts of Hinduism. Most of the knowledge gained and ideas formed are by listening to people, reading some books and thinking about them. I have been fortunate to get in touch with a few great people from whom I learnt most of these concepts and a few nice friends who helped me to dig the knowledge thus gained and get them organized by asking questions. If these answers are convincing and useful, I am happy about it.* If you do not agree with some idea or you are not able to follow some concept, please feel free to send a mail to gokulmuthu@yahoo.com*.


----------



## mediator (Apr 19, 2009)

^^ Ah well, so you "quoted" some one who himself says that he is not an authority on scriptures and his ideas are formed by "listening to people" etc? Great going! Neways,



			
				phantom said:
			
		

> Where have I said that its offensive to me ??
> So what are you suggesting ?? *we punish the modern day Indian muslims* for what a foreign muslim ruler did hundreds of years ago ….. that’s the ideology RSS go by ……All muslims are evil because few of em were villains
> The point of studying history is not to get angry over what somebody did 100s of years ago and then go about killing ppl quiet unconnected with the incident living in the present …..


Where did I "suggested" something like that? You did not reply, "Where is it asking to kill muslims"?? Next, I asked how u perceive Quran which tells "how" and "why" infidels were killed? Did u lost ur balls on commenting on this one? A self-styled pseudo secularist? Not again!! 



			
				phantom said:
			
		

> What I implied by my message is that India has been lecturing US about non-violence for a long time …. But when faced with a similar problem we find that we r no better than the US which is sad ……


Then why such a mention of US? First your posts have started to bore me and now you post something that has no meaning or relevance to the discussion.



			
				phantom said:
			
		

> * I am against capital punishment
> *You should look up the word “Humanity” lol


:sigh:




			
				phantom said:
			
		

> Wow now you are justifying castes based society ……… look what happened because ppl followed it …. India is divided left right and center .
> ->Do you know that Turkey is majority muslim and a secular country J …….. ofcourse u don’t
> ->So if Muslims impose Sharia …. Hindus should impose Hindutva ? …. Nice reasoning …..
> ->It is covered as much as its required …… do you, like RSS want to manufacture more Muslim atrocity ??


"Justifying???????". I just got a heart attack!   

Its like u tell a person that 2+2=4 and other replies, "why r u justifying 2+2=4". 

My dear, I hope you understanf that human nature is such that it might follow something that is written in "scriptures". But if the "modern sense of cast system" is "not written" in scriptures and if what is written is "not followed", then how can u say one is following it? Perhaps you did not get the irony in ur own post!

Next, where did I say "Hindutva" should be implemented?? i only asked if sharia is implemented then why such a furure over hindutva? People don't make noise over "Sharia". I cant see ur or any one else's (those who make noise against hindutva) "secularity" here?

Do you know what "logic by refutation" means?

So do u ...
* condemn sharia?
* muslim reservation?
* The Haj pilgrimage package?
* Muslim maulanas who act more like politicians than preachers e.g Bukhari of Jama Masjid?

Next, Turkey a secular country? Are other allowed to practice their religious faiths  "openly"? Can anyone raise his/her voice against or criticise  Islam in a country that is basically a "Sunni" majority? Americans can mock Jesus openly, Indians can mock their religious figures openly, can the same be applied to a muslim majority country like Turkey? You must be out of your mind!!
*www.jihadwatch.org/archives/025408.php
*www.globalpolitician.com/25531-turkey
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Turkey#Restrictions_on_religious_freedom



			
				phantom said:
			
		

> Killing animals for the table (eating) ….. is not slaughter …. That’s RSS propaganda …….
> 1.Humans are Omnivores
> 2.From ancient times (vedic times) a section of Indian Hindus ate Goat , Deer and also cow meat (like pointed previously in one of the threads in this forum)
> 3.Killing animals and Humans for no reason is slaughter ……. So both Babhri and Godhra were slaughters / genocide/ethnic cleansing …..


Again Imagining stuff or is it your only talent?? I believe thats Islamist doctrine, which is visible by Zakir Naiks explaining it over again n again everywhere. 

*www.hinduwisdom.info/articles_hinduism/283.htm
*www.aryasamaj.org/eng_art/A_clouds_over_understandingII.htm
*www.aryasamaj.org/eng_art/A_clouds_over_understanding.htm

Read carefuly the above links and tell what you understand by it, so that we can get a clue that you atleast have some basic comprehension skills!




			
				phantom said:
			
		

> The reaction was worse than the actions ……. Instead of Govt arresting the culprits , they instigated a mob to attack Muslims who were uninvolved in the first incident …..


Don't tell you don't do u r skool homework also! Did you, by any chance, or by some miracle, in ur mind...had a desire to read the links I gave?? 



			
				phantom said:
			
		

> Nope I am reading …. Sometimes I forget to make a point
> So you are just showing me a (one of) example ?? how many such muslims are in with BJP ? 1 , 2 3 ?? …. That guy *joined BJP for power* ….[ *He was retired after all*] ……. and Bjp wanted an image makeover as the article itself says


First, I did not gave the link to show that "he wud join BJP", but to show you what he spoke of, i.e the relevant part which,I guess, you intentionally missed !!?? i.e ...

ex-cop...
"“*They were just mad people who had nothing to do with the BJP*. I am thankful that God gave me presence of mind on that day. Had I opened fire with my service revolver, I would have been lynched.”"

I don't understand why r u opining and jumping like silly when nanavati report has given the clean chit??




			
				phantom said:
			
		

> What are you talking about ?? Sharma is a much decorated police officer and has won seven gallantry medals including a President of India's medal …… is this digrace to you ??


Ignoring the death of great police officer and then saying it was a conspiracy, is more than a disgrace. I didn't ask to checkout the history of Mohan Chand Sharma, but "how his sacrifice was turned into "vote banks" ". Ahh never mind, perhaps chatting with u on IM was indeed a better option! 



			
				phantom said:
			
		

> What did Gandhi and Nehru get from partitioning India ? …. Don’t make such random statements


Such random statements are marked with "proofs" all the way. It is again a confirmation that you don't read the link I have given. Ahh, well keep your eyes wide open this time ...



			
				article said:
			
		

> *The Congress neither acknowledged the Muslim League's performance*, albeit poor, in the elections nor deigned to form a coalition government with the League, a situation that led to the collapse of negotiations and mutual trust between the leaders. Mohammad Ali Jinnah, a Western-educated Muslim lawyer, took over the presidency of the moribund Muslim League and galvanized it into a national force under the battle cry of "Islam in danger." *Jinnah doubted the motives of Gandhi and Nehru and accused them of practicing Hindu chauvinism. He relentlessly attacked the Congress-led ministries, accusing them of casteism, corruption, and nepotism*.



Why didn't the so called "secular" Nehru let Mohammed Ali Jinnah become the prime minister? Partitioning was a big mistake, thanx to congress, a weak party which couldn't contain communal divide and now playing vote banks over it, appeasing minorities and selling our country to terrorists!! 



			
				phantom said:
			
		

> Quoting from your own link
> 
> “Last month, *the Prime Minister favoured ‘fair share’ for minorities in government and private jobs* as he spoke at the meeting of the National Commission for Minorities.”


  Isn't that what I am saying? Isn't that communal i.e "favouring a fair share for minorities??" Isn't our country supposed to be "democratic, secular"? Are minorities unable to do anything on their own? Why such an "inclination", such a "privilege", a kind of luxury for any particular community ???? 




			
				phantom said:
			
		

> Dont act like a n00b .... leaving your email id in a public forum ???
> 
> How difficult is it for you to PM me your id


Oh well, perhaps you cud have Pmed me ur id from the start. Does that correct eror? But I prefer "a debate". Keep talking. 




			
				phantom said:
			
		

> mediator said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That a 3rd heart attack!  

I'm only trying to observe the lower threshold of human logic now, which according to my report just decreased even beyond! 




			
				phantom said:
			
		

> *BJP conviniently appeared only after the independence* .........even though its founders were very much alive during the 1940s ... *y did they not start it before* ??


Buddy, I surrender! And so, I died, with 12 pack abs. 


You were right people might not read big posts, but such jokes are always welcomed by everyone. So keep them coming! 




			
				phantom said:
			
		

> RSS was founded in 1925 well before the independence .... thought their efforts towards the freedom struggle is "almost NIL"


So? Just coz its not covered in NCERT books, it doesn't mean its not there.
*timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/829811.cms.



			
				phantom said:
			
		

> At the outbreak of World War II, the Indian army numbered 205,000 men. Later on during World War II the Indian Army would become the largest all-volunteer force in history, rising to over 2.5 million men in size. These forces included tank, artillery and airborne forces. In matters of administration, weapons, training, and equipment, the Indian Army had considerable independence; for example, prior to the war the Indian Army adopted the Vickers-Berthier (VB) light machine gun instead of the Bren gun of the British Army, while continuing to manufacture and issue the older SMLE No. 1 Mk III rifle during World War II, instead of the No.4 Mk I Lee-Enfield issued to British Army forces
> 
> and do you have any idea about Congress's role in limiting India's participation in the WWII role


Judging by ur futile logic and posts, I guess, here too u failed to understand my point!


----------



## Faun (Apr 19, 2009)

Phantom Lancer said:


> random statements without any reference /reasoning / logic is not considered credible in a debate .....


There is no mention of Caste System in Vedas. So your argument is wrong. 

Here is one verse fro Rig Veda:

```
I am a bard, my father is a physician, my mother's job is to grind the corn......
```




Phantom Lancer said:


> yeah .... and whos doing that ?


My next door neighbor.



Phantom Lancer said:


> my dear  i said "since vedic times ..... "
> 
> Vedic times is a period in history  .....ok ?


But still is there anywhere it is written as a rule to eat meat ? And that para explains that meat is not good. 



Phantom Lancer said:


> thank you for your concern ....... but i think u should be more worried about yourself not about others


lol...trolled again !


----------



## NOT FOUND (Apr 19, 2009)

esumitkumar said:


> ^^Thanks Swatty..ur 100% correct..Lets see when Narendra bhai will become PM
> w8ing for other digitians opinions....





MY VOTE FOR MNS
outsiders get out mumbai is the land of marathi people
-----------------------------------------
Posted again:
-----------------------------------------
let all state develop by their own why are you coming to mumbai
as there is great opportunity in other states also

Bhaiyas go back to u state you already spoiled U.P bihar
and now got eyes on mumbai...
y don't you develop you state....?????


----------



## NOT FOUND (Apr 19, 2009)

the MAIN Topic is not BJP or Congress
See the current trend is that many people in india wants to leave INDIA and go in U.S/canada/australia, etc
to earn money and settle
every youngster today thinks of going aboard for studying  then take a good job  there and finally settling.
I admit I also feel the same because in INDIA there is nothing no appreciation for creativity. Population is concentrated on specific areas so hard to get high paying jobs

If a government which can stop all these and which will make an
U.S dollar equal to India Rupee then I will vote for that party...

Stop outsourcing for other countries
India as capability of creating good products..
don't let other countries take advantage of our skilled workers


----------



## Phantom Lancer (Apr 19, 2009)

ichi said:


> My next door neighbor.


Good for you 


> But still is there anywhere it is written as a rule to eat meat ? And that para explains that meat is not good.


No, but does that justify Banning mutton/beef consumption ?
Personally i think its absolutely ok to eat NV in moderation.......anything too much is too bad ...... that includes NV ..... but consumption in moderation is totally ok ..... anyways there are more no of NVs than Vs 



> lol...trolled again !


trippin me eh ?
-----------------------------------------
Posted again:
-----------------------------------------
@mediator

Debate totally out of syn ..... you misunderstood more than half the comments i made in my previous posts ......IMO You are just too biased to think from a neutral point of you ..... which also leads you to misunderstand my opinion/posts ...... 

and i cant make out when u r kidding and when you r not .....

anyways  elections are on ....... lets see the outcome .......

just FYI i am not going to vote for the Congress(or BJP) / i dont subscriber to the communist ideology / i am not a muslim / and i dont eat beef


----------



## karnivore (Apr 19, 2009)

Phantom Lancer said:


> lucky for you i found this at the site from which i quoted the text


Yes, genius, I figured that out. Next time, when you quote from a site, provide a link.

Capiche.


----------



## reddick (Apr 20, 2009)

I think Congress is better than BJP.

1. Manmohan singh is a genius PM and an intellegent economist
2. Congress have other strong leaders like - Rahul Ghandhi, Sonia Ghandhi, etc.
3. Currently India is a Nuclear powered nation in N-weapons and reactors due to signing agreement with U.S
4. India is a leading economy in these days as we have wise Fin. min. - Mr. P.Chitambaram
5. Govt. made Pakistan down in mumbai terror 26/11 and caught 'Kasab' alive
6. Many beneficial schemes were launched for poors and needy people
7. Development of infrastructure in Delhi,Mumbai and in other cities and in many villages also
8. Development in Railways.It earned great profit in this govt. only

And there r several other achievements our nation gained during Cong. rule

Today India is an emerging Developing nation on World Map.All the efforts of stable UPA govt.

So guys think and support for Congress!

EACE:


----------



## mediator (Apr 20, 2009)

reddick said:
			
		

> 5. Govt. made Pakistan down in mumbai terror 26/11 and caught 'Kasab' alive


Whose govt. was it in Maharashtra and at the centre? And who were the people, and which party they belonged to, who "ignored" the warnings by the intelligence and later commented "ek aad ghatna hoti reti hai"? Then they removed those people! How convenient! 

Funny, that Congress asked Vajpayee to escort Raul Baba when he was detained for "drugs" in US, and "ignores" the threats to the nation. May be, "Congress dynasty" is bigger than the nation!



			
				reddick said:
			
		

> 7. Development of infrastructure *in Delhi*,Mumbai and in other cities and in many villages also


Like the BRT corridor and several deaths coz of it? Or the Metro girders falling off randomly? perhaps its the "Dwarka's killer flyover" u r talking bt?? Rise of rapes in the city? Or the freedom of women at night, with Shiela Dixit replying like "Girls shudn't be adventurous at night"??

You know even the 8 oscars are part of UPA's achievement!


----------



## freshseasons (Apr 20, 2009)

I think BJP nor Congress is a option.
   For all i think it should be BSP.Bahujan Samaj Party.Check Maharashtra. I mean which party gives tickets to Brahmans,marathas,telis,muslims (10 in all,Congress just one seat to muslim and that too to Antulay),Boyar,adivasi( open seat). 
     When all these communities have voice will this not lead to economic development .
   The only party that is truly destroying casteism.
    Then it is more of the pro poor party.
   I know it is a growing party and have its problems but if you forget the stigma or prejudices attached to it ,right now it seems ways ahead of me in terms of other options.


----------



## reddick (Apr 20, 2009)

No corner of the world is safe

Even today's super power nations like U.S and U.K are facing terrorism
No party is total CLEAN.There may b some drawbacks in every party but we have to look at overall development and what we have achieved and where we stand today among the whole world.

India is a largest democracy in the world and only UPA provided stable and strong alliance govt. in the country.

People are satisfied from the past 5 yrs. performance of the Congress.
The hatrick winning of 'Shiela Dikshit' in Delhi is d evidence of it.


----------



## mediator (Apr 20, 2009)

reddick said:
			
		

> People are satisfied from the past 5 yrs. performance of the Congress.
> *The hatrick winning of 'Shiela Dikshit' in Delhi is d evidence of it.*


Really? Is it a coincidence that lakhs of Bangladeshi immigrants are living in Delhi and still rising or is it a vicious circle for petty vote banks? Even Lalu reigned for 15 years, or r u implying that it gives an evidence that people from Bihar were "satisfied" with him??

Thanx to Kongress, I believe we will be seeing bangladeshis sitting in delhi High Courts in a few decades. 

*www.thaindian.com/newsportal/india...nts-a-threat-to-indias-security_10083245.html
*www.hvk.org/articles/0203/76.html
*www.hindu.com/2005/07/26/stories/2005072614090400.htm


----------



## Faun (Apr 20, 2009)

mediator said:


> You know even the 8 oscars are part of UPA's achievement!


Jai Ho...lol


----------



## Phantom Lancer (Apr 21, 2009)

karnivore said:


> Yes, genius, I figured that out. Next time, when you quote from a site, provide a link.
> 
> Capiche.



// offtopic

like you gonna actually open the link and read the whole thing ..... i know better ( from experience)


----------



## karnivore (Apr 21, 2009)

Phantom Lancer said:


> // offtopic
> 
> like you gonna actually open the link and read the whole thing ..... i know better ( from experience)


a. You know zlich about me. So don't freaking generalise.

b. Giving links is a courteous way of giving credit to the original author, whether or not anybody clicks on the link and reads the whole thing. 

c. If to someone, a quote seems to be out of context, he can always verify the actual context. By not giving a link, you do disservice to your opponent. Again, a matter of etiquette.

You can now wipe that smirk off your face and do some growing up, and while you are at it, learn some etiquette.


----------



## srimaya_rath (Apr 26, 2009)

India is in the process of voting and 2 phases of polling is over.. 3 more phases to come.. It's a shame to Indian Democracy that in the 2nd phase of polling, the average turnout of the voters was only 55%.

I work for an IT company and one day holiday was given to the employees to cast the vote. But unfortunately people utilized that holiday as a long weekend and went on trips. Also many people gave excuses like 'who will go to vote in this scorching heat..'. So, ultimately the educated people didn't vote.. This is really disheartening.. It shows many educated masses are unaware of politics and they are taking everything for granted.. I'm very sorry to say that one 26/11 was not enough for our educated people to wake up.. In my opinion these activities (of not casting your vote) are no less than crimes.. and corporates should take strong actions like deducting one day salary of employees who does not have black mark in their finger..

Three more phases of polling are still there.. Please.. please.. cast your vote and elect the deserving candidates..

Polling dates are as follows:
3rd phase: Apr 30, 2009
4th phase: May 7, 2009
5th phase: May 13, 2009

Thanks!


----------



## planetcall (Apr 26, 2009)

I am glad to see that the legacy of the fight club continues ! Indeed the mammoth size of the threads and huge posts prevent users from going through it and very often lead to the points being repeated. 

Nevertheless, looking at the topic I would opine ! 

In my opinion congress is a party which seems to be decaying now. BJP has more number of capable leaders and has a very distinct attitude towards it policies as it has been. The problem with congress is the lack of vision. Their allies are completely indifferent to the national policy being adopted by the so called UPA. 

In short, my vote to the growth of India and hence to BJP.


----------



## cyanide911 (Apr 27, 2009)

To every pro-bjp here. Many of you talk about POTA. Do you guys even ****ing know what that is, and WHY many other parties are opposed to it?


----------



## The_Devil_Himself (Apr 27, 2009)

I would vote for BJP if it wasn't full of so many retards(especially advani.


p.s.:too many advani ads on the internetz,Please get off our internet ffs!


----------



## esumitkumar (Apr 28, 2009)

cyanide911 said:


> To every pro-bjp here. Many of you talk about POTA. Do you guys even ****ing know what that is, and WHY many other parties are opposed to it?


 
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevention_of_Terrorist_Activities_Act

Also regarding misuse of POTA ,its not science's fault that one person uses blade for shaving and other person uses it for cutting somebody's neck...similarly its not BJP's fault if some corrupt policemen are using POTA for their personal revenges


----------



## cyanide911 (May 4, 2009)

@esumit: Now that, is a retarded analogy. Where have I mentioned that it's BJP's fault that policemen are misusing POTA? It's BJP's fault that they're supporting something that can be misused to such an extent.
Imagine. Someone commits a serious crime. The police, in desperation of getting a 'Solved Case' under their belt, drag you to the local thaana. They beat the **** out of you, torture you for SIX ****ING MONTHS (yes, they can do that under POTA. 180 days detainment on basis of suspect), and out of extreme pain, and to make the torture stop, you say that it was YOU who had committed the crime.

Congrats. You're now a terrorist. No other evidence needed.


----------



## esumitkumar (May 5, 2009)

^^ very true..but iss country main police aur neta kuch bhi kar sakte hai regardless whether BJP is there or Congress or Mayawati or Left ..isliye police aur neta se panga mat lena warna ye log kar denge kisi ko bhi nanga


----------



## Phantom Lancer (May 5, 2009)

//offtopic post



karnivore said:


> a. You know zlich about me. So don't freaking generalise.


Zlich ?  first get your spellings right ....... Your posts say a lot about you , its not the first time i am running into wannabes 



> b. Giving links is a courteous way of giving credit to the original author, whether or not anybody clicks on the link and reads the whole thing.


That is correct .... but links can also be used to avoid having to re quote an article already provided in another web page , on that case it makes sense to open and read those links ..... which most people dont do 



> c. If to someone, a quote seems to be out of context, he can always verify the actual context. By not giving a link, you do disservice to your opponent. Again, a matter of etiquette.


I am not paraphrasing buddy , i am quoting the exact same thing that was in the link ...... so your explanation is totally irrelevant 



> You can now wipe that smirk off your face and do some growing up, and while you are at it, learn some etiquette.


Charity starts at home ... you should learn some netiquettes   yourself, before teaching somebody else


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## Phantom Lancer (May 5, 2009)

I forgot to answer one of your key questions 



Phantom Lancer said:


> Let me remind you that in your last post you gave congress as the reason for the birth of naxalite movement .... learnt something new now have nt you  ??





karnivore said:


> Feel free to show me where…do quote that part. Then hopefully you will apologize for lying.


Let me refresh your memory 
Heres the post
post # 113


karnivore said:


> The Indian scene is extremely different and it has got nothing to do with communism itself. A faction of the unified CPI wanted to support Congress while another faction did not. This resulted in the split. The CPI(M-L) entered the scene much later and was a freak movement started at Naxalbari.



Prior to my reply ... your idea of communism was shaped completely by local writers (like you said yourself)  and was totally miscued ..... its clear from this answer of yours (post # 113) that you had very little idea about  development of communist ideology in the international scene and its effects in the Indian movement ,and this is what Anorion meant by when he said fragmentation of ideology .


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## karnivore (May 6, 2009)

Phantom Lancer said:


> I forgot to answer one of your key questions
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly which part of that quote (post #113), gives the "congress as the reason for the *birth of naxalite movement*." The part, emphasised in red, certainly doesn't.

My idea of communism is shaped by appropriate writers, thank you very much. But my understanding of local politics is indeed shaped by local writers. The problem is, you are viewing these local politics (you are too naive to even know, how in the rural areas, a neighbour's kid taking a dip in one's pond can spark a bloody political unrest, which will then be rationalised by the armchair analysts, to be a result of Hugo Chavez's fart) through the eyes of international writers and is therefore finding it hard to reconcile what you have read previously and what you are reading here.

Do yourself a favour and get off that high horse. And before doing some more mental gymnastics, do read up on how CPI(M) was formed and how much of your so called "development of communist ideology in the international scene" was responsible for that.8)

...off you go little one, play with your crayons.


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## karnivore (May 6, 2009)

Phantom Lancer said:


> Zlich ?  first get your spellings right ....... Your posts say a lot about you , its not the first time i am running into wannabes


Hmmm...all that joy because "l" is before "i". Yep mature...Mr Johnny-come-lately



> That is correct .... but links can also be used to avoid having to re quote an article already provided in another web page , on that case it makes sense to open and read those links ..... *which most people dont do *


Thats not for you to look out. Just do your job and let people decide what they want to do.



> I am not paraphrasing buddy , i am quoting the exact same thing that was in the link ...... so your explanation is totally irrelevant


Yes, your highness.
As you say, my lordship.



> Charity starts at home ... you should learn some netiquettes   yourself, before teaching somebody else


Riiiiiiiiight.....


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