# Apple expensive? I don't think so...



## aryayush (Sep 26, 2006)

*Apple (Macintosh) vs. Microsoft (Windows)*



> ... and here's the reason why.
> 
> There are three departments in computer hardware: for home use, office use and on the go. Apple offers the iMac and Mac Mini; Mac Pro; and MacBook and MacBook Pro respectively for the three departments. In this little article, I will justify the price of the Apple 17-inch iMac in comparison to a self assembled PC with similar specs and try to make you, a prospective buyer, see the competitiveness of Apple’s pricing. Read on to see how things are not always as transparent as they might seem!


I have written my first ever article on technology and wouldn't mind if a few people had a look at it. Please click on this sentence to read the article and leave a comment if possible! Thank you!
I have posted this in the 'Fight Club' because this is a debatable topic and I would like to know how many people disagree with me and their reason for doing so.


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## eddie (Sep 28, 2006)

The cheapest Mac (according to apple's site) is costing 62,900 bucks.
*www.asia.apple.com/store/india/TheAppleStore_iMac.htm
They have also given the specs. Even though I have not updated myself with the price of the hardware lately but an assembled PC with those specs will not cost you more than 40K at the max. I still think Apple is expensive...


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## iMav (Sep 28, 2006)

apple is not expensive !!!! .... no comments


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## kumarmohit (Sep 30, 2006)

I dont think Mac is expensive Quality comes @ price


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## QwertyManiac (Sep 30, 2006)

It certainly isnt 'expensive' but it is definitely higher than other solutions available. And no, you can not game on it fellow gamers


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## mail2and (Sep 30, 2006)

Aryaayush, I'd recommend you to post your article at forums such as macnn.com, macrumors.com or appleinsider.com. If you want a critical review of your article, which is related to Apple/Macs, you're not likely to get it here. The knowledge about Apple/Macs in this forum is abysmally low. 

Most of the people who have replied above haven't even cared to read your article, leave aside reviewing it. Someone said that the cheapest Mac costs 62k. First, the cheapest Mac i.e. Mac Mini costs around 30-32k. Second, the price of iMac mentioned on Apple's India catalog store is MRP. Most dealers, especially the big ones, will sell the computer to you at a lesser price.

What people fail to understand or do not understand is that a branded computer can not compete with an assembled computer. However, the level of support, warranty and consequently, service experience differs. Read about my experience with AppleCare here.


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## eddie (Sep 30, 2006)

mail2and said:
			
		

> Most of the people who have replied above haven't even cared to read your article, leave aside reviewing it. Someone said that the cheapest Mac costs 62k. First, the cheapest Mac i.e. Mac Mini costs around 30-32k.


...and he talked about Mac Mini in his article? For god's sake man...you can't compare apples to oranges. He was clearly talking about Mac...not Mac mini. Just look at the specs he mentioned. Please read the article again and get the essence of it before flaming everyone


> Second, the price of iMac mentioned on Apple's India catalog store is MRP. Most dealers, especially the big ones, will sell the computer to you at a lesser price.


Yes...the dealers will sell it at 40K...sure...why not...may be they will give me one for free :roll:


> What people fail to understand or do not understand is that a branded computer can not compete with an assembled computer.


 In what ways? If you just talk about customer care then I would like to ask you that how many times did you call the Mac Care or their executive visit you in one year? Divide 20,000 bucks with that number...that is how much your each call cost you. Was it worth it? If yes...then you are just a rich guy with loads of money to throw down the drain.


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## knight17 (Oct 1, 2006)

> dont think Mac is expensive Quality comes @ price


Is it able to compete with a PC of similar price, I don't think it is.May be the PC don't have the look, but I love it.


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## mail2and (Oct 1, 2006)

eddie said:
			
		

> ...and he talked about Mac Mini in his article? For god's sake man...you can't compare apples to oranges. He was clearly talking about Mac...not Mac mini. Just look at the specs he mentioned. Please read the article again and get the essence of it before flaming everyone
> Yes...the dealers will sell it at 40K...sure...why not...may be they will give me one for free :roll:
> In what ways? If you just talk about customer care then I would like to ask you that how many times did you call the Mac Care or their executive visit you in one year? Divide 20,000 bucks with that number...that is how much your each call cost you. Was it worth it? If yes...then you are just a rich guy with loads of money to throw down the drain.



Lol. First, it is not a 'Mac'. It is an 'iMac'. There are different Macs: *Mac*Book Pro, *Mac*Book, *Mac* Mini, iMac, Power*Mac*, e*Mac*. Not exactly apples to oranges.

Second, it is obvious that you do not know a single mac dealer. I personally got my Mac Mini for 35k when the MRP was 39k. Now, i'd request you to get the 'essence' of the topic at hand.

Third, I'd request you to get the same rig at 40k  With a monitor. Check the internal components of any mac and you'll see why it is around 4-5k expensive than a similar PC config.

IBm(Lenovo) portables on the PC side are expensive, as well. The reason? They use high quality parts.

Now for some Accounts lessons. A company has to spend on advertising, customer care, offices. They have a huge employee base. They have to maintain an acceptable margin to keep the shareholders happy. The chain goes like Manufacturer->Company->You

Whereas, when you buy an assembled computer, these costs are not incurred. Hence, assembled computers are cheaper.

And for the personal remark in your post, I will not reply to it. You can think of me as anyone you want. I don't care.


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## blackpearl (Oct 1, 2006)

At the price of a mac I can build a PC that I bet will be much more powerful than the mac. So PC= more performance-per-rupees.


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## eddie (Oct 1, 2006)

mail2and said:
			
		

> Second, it is obvious that you do not know a single mac dealer. I personally got my Mac Mini for 35k when the MRP was 39k. Now, i'd request you to get the 'essence' of the topic at hand.


ermm...and that would get me the *iMac* at 40K? You are getting so happy about 4 thousand bucks and I am talking about more than 23K here...please get the picture...
The OP talks about a system costing 63K bucks in his article...not 35K...



> Third, I'd request you to get the same rig at 40k  With a monitor.


If you ever come down to Delhi in near future...give Nehru Place a try. The experience will be an eye opener for you...



> Check the internal components of any mac and you'll see why it is around 4-5k expensive than a similar PC config.


4-5K? I am talking about 23K here. They are gold plating the internal components or what?



> IBm(Lenovo) portables on the PC side are expensive, as well. The reason? They use high quality parts.


Yes they ask Intel to make high quality CPUs for them...Seagate to produce different drives for them and mobo manufacturers to provide them with custom built rocket speed mobos. I am getting the whole picture now 



> Now for some Accounts lessons. A company has to spend on advertising, customer care, offices. They have a huge employee base. They have to maintain an acceptable margin to keep the shareholders happy. The chain goes like Manufacturer->Company->You


Thanks for the accounts lesson oh great sir. So I should give them my money in order to make them show me advertisements and keep *their* shareholders happy? Sorry but my close up does not look like this
*tinyurl.co.uk/6zy3


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## JGuru (Oct 6, 2006)

It's pretty simple. Mac O.S caters to niche audience.It has more innovative features than
 Windows ( ofcourse M$ copies all the Mac's features in it's next O.S release!!!). Mac is 
expensive beyond doubt. That's why Microsoft was able to penetrate the market so easily!!!


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## aryayush (Oct 6, 2006)

JGuru said:
			
		

> Mac is expensive beyond doubt. That's why Microsoft was able to penetrate the market so easily!!!


You should rephrase that to:
"Mac *was* expensive beyond doubt. That's why Microsoft was able to penetrate the market so easily!!!"
I do not disagree that Apple's products used to be grossly overpriced in the not too distant past, but they offer the most competitively priced products in the market today.
I have another post to support my Apple is not expensive theory, if you would care to have a look here:
Apple expensive? I don't think so... (part deux). Comments are now open to everyone, if you are so inclined.


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## gxsaurav (Oct 6, 2006)

Macs were costly....then they switched to Intel X86 CPU to reduces costs
Now they are just over prices PCs

Eddie, u r right,...even I would like to ask Andy, what special components apple uses in their Macs which make them 23k or 4k costly then similarly configured PCs, which is also justified according to him....I guess they had SATA 2 HD already when PCs were running PATA in 2001 

Andy, u r not the only one here who has worked on a Mac, better come to the real world

the cheapest Mac is a Mac mini, well, yeah it is...but it does not comes with a Monitor keyboard mouse, etc etc....& what about the sound card, oh it's 2.1 channel onboard. What about the graphics card, oh it's onboard GMA 950 which no one can upgrade. So it's cheap & value for money at 35k, right.

we can get a PC in 35k, without Core 2 duo, but Athlon64 3800+ X2 for sure, just cos core 2 duo is hard to find in retail channel, & we can easily have a 7300GT or Radeon X1600XT with 512 MB VRAM in it & onboard 5.1/7.1 channel audio, monitor keyboard & mouse included...with far better upgrade capability

This is India, why are u comparing Apple USA prices & PC USA prices in India? This is for all of the readers here. 

& cut the shareholder talk etc....we are consumers, & we want product at lower cost, we don't want to pay Rs 5000 more, just so that the shareholders are happy

& Andy, in that techspot thread, didn't U said u got your Mac mini for 26k? this is the first time I m hearing that a dealer is selling a branded computer at cost less then it's MRP tera bhai tha kya

Jguru

where have u been when apple copied Spotlight from Longhorn beta shown in 2003 or system backup in form of Time Machine in leopard, come to real world guys, everyone copies from everyone...this is business

The only thing I still like about Apple which is a hardware company is that they made beautiful looking Computers, I mean, no one ever thought of squeezing a computer in a small box like Mac mini, even though, it just stays like that always with no upgradeability. The iMac G4 with the round base is still my favorite designed Computer, iMacG5 & iMac core duo, the whole in one Mac sux in design 

PCs are meant to be upgraded as & when needed, Shuttle XPC ever seen those, they are damn small, yet they provide full upgrading capability

aryaush, about your config

U R installing a mobile core 2 duo CPU in a PC desktop, great...just great, they don't even install on desktop PCs, they are costly already cos they are for mobile usage

U included a $140 isight camera in your PC config, again...superb choice, a great camera for PC which doesn't even work with PC...umm...what was the price of Microsoft LX 6000, i guess $79 or $89

apple keyboard & mouse....well, i guess white color hardware comes $10 costly


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## aryayush (Oct 6, 2006)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> apple keyboard & mouse....well, i guess white color hardware comes $10 costly


Ten US dollars amounts to Rs. 456.84. You can get a keyboard and mouse combo cheaper than that, irrespective of whether it is 'white' or not?!? I don't think so, mate.


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## gxsaurav (Oct 6, 2006)

> Ten US dollars amounts to Rs. 456.84. You can get a keyboard and mouse combo cheaper than that, irrespective of whether it is 'white' or not?!? I don't think so, mate.


Come again, didn't get u?

what i meant was, Apple's own keyboard & Mouse, are more costly then normal PC keyboard & Mouse, & they charge the premium just cos it's white in color 

By the way, why no comments or answers to the other point i posted?


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## freshseasons (Oct 6, 2006)

I completly agree with gxsaurav on this ! I mean If we think that way even " Mercedes are not expensive ". 
     Apples have always been into premium Product flagships! Ibook is no more functional than PC Laptop yet the drooling Power simply makes one pay for it.
    Apple now since using Softwares that can install windows xp on intel Proccy macs shows they will want to use the windows XP customers base who have an eye for mac.
     Points mentioned by gxsaurav are pretty much valid and hence thres no point repeating them
     Apples are expensive and they remain so now !


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## nix (Oct 7, 2006)

ppl usually think more expensive products are better. these compnies that cant bring in the numbers resort to high prices to create a kind of niche market. another example is bose....


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## aryayush (Oct 13, 2006)

*Tiger and Vista: Pictures do speak louder than words!*

Tiger and Vista: Pictures do speak louder than words!
This post is a must read for Mac and PC users alike. I have been as objective as it is humanly possible to be. The subjective differences that appear on such articles are bound to be present though. Please do give it a look anyway! Thanks!


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## gxsaurav (Oct 13, 2006)

Oh comon....don't u have anything else to do. Once u were proven wrong, that Mac is not cheap...u start saying a completely different thing.

An idea is so obvious, it comes on it's own...Linux & Mac also copy from Windows, why didn't u show time machine, & it's Windows equivalent, Windows backup system. Why didn't u said that instant search was a feature of WinFS first shown in Longhorn builds 4053 in 2003, which apple copied & released in Mac first as spotlight

U are saying Flip3D & Expose are same, well tell me from which angle...they are completely different. Expose is a 2d layer, parallel to the monitor screen; Flip3D is a 3d layer in itself with Z-buffer

Windows Explorer & Finder are alike...yeah right....do u see an address bar in finder

Control panel searching, again, why don't u say KDE copied it before vista did...this is an obvious feature, which u don't even need actually. Just read what’s on the screen...& u will find what u r looking for

Dock is stylish, that’s it. For years Mac apps are pallated, just look at after effect 6.5 for Mac or GIMP for Mac, & look at AE7 for Mac. However this is just a true innovation. So I won't argue on it...Kudos to Apple for the dock

Even I can say, that Apple copied the current alt+tab from Windows, to show the icons

Dashboard...again, now that is a rip off of Konfabulater, everyone knows that & Sidebar is nothing like dashboard. Sidebar is a container for Widgets, unlike dashboard, which is not a container..But another layer on top of Mac UI

Windows Photo gallery is new, & it's nothing like iphoto....I haven't used iphoto so I can't say though

Burn files to CD was already available in Windows XP, from the time it was released, but I don't think it was in MacOS X 10.0 or 10.1...they added it later

Media centre is a copy of front row ...ya, right....absolutely true man....where were u in 2003, 2004 2005 when XP MCE was released, u r saying the other way around

URGE & iTunes, that’s different discussion anyway, I can say a lot of shortcoming of ipod too....& there are many in Playforsure devices too.

U said better get a Mac, well...why didn't u also said that MacOS works only on Computers made by Apple, which cannot be upgraded by user, which has far less choice when upgrading unlike PCs, & have no value for money anyway. U can't even upgrade RAM on your own

Get your facts right, owning a Mac does not mean its better


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## mail2and (Oct 14, 2006)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Dashboard...again, now that is a rip off of Konfabulater, everyone knows that


 

Sorry for bursting your li'l bubble. _Desktop Accessories_ were first introduced in System 6 in 1988. Wonder why Konfab developers didn't sue Apple?

Ayush, i'd say again. you'd never get a good review of your articles on this forum. Most of the people on this forum have myopic and rigid viewpoints.
__________


			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Why didn't u said that instant search was a feature of WinFS first shown in Longhorn builds 4053 in 2003, which apple copied & released in Mac first as spotlight



What reason do you have to believe that the technology wasn't being developed by Apple when it was previewed by MS? If you are just guessing, then you're no more than a troll.



> Windows Explorer & Finder are alike...yeah right....do u see an address bar in finder


It's designed in such a way that it does not require an address bar. However, the next time you check out finder, click on Go>Go to Folder, and your address bar would be there. Shift+Apple+G works, too.

I predict you will skip all of the points mentioned in my post because you have no points to reply. Infact, I can bet on it. 

And you mentioned that I said my mac was worth 26k? Well, go checkout TechSpot, kid. If you have already done and realize your folly or ignorance, then do 10 sit-ups or just go back to your sofa. It's already missing you.


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## goobimama (Oct 14, 2006)

Okay gx:

1) Time machine is (is to be at least) totally transparent. Works behind the scenes. You don't have to remind yourself every week (every day?) to take a backup. I've lost a couple of important files till now, due to my stupidity I admit, and I painfully have to take backups every week (even on my iMac)

2) I've not used flip3D, but gathering from the pictures, I can only see that it shows you one window at a time. Flip flip flip. Expose, much more functional, shows you all the windows, neatly and quickly I might add, to use as much space as efficiently possible. And "Spaces" in leopard is going to better that...

3) I've never used the address bar in Explorer. 

4) neh 
5) It pains me to run windows on my 24inch monitor.

6) The alt+tab is far more functional in mac. You can quit apps right from alt-tab. You can select the icon from your mouse. Not sure who copied whom though, you may be right.

8) You have not used iPhoto and yet you say Windows Photo gallery is nothing like iPhoto? Talk sense.

9) Whatever. You have to drag the files to the CD drive. It copies all the files to a separate folder before burning which takes as long as the burning process itself....

I can upgrade my RAM.

So I guess it comes down to personal choices. Some prefer to have everything but their work transparent. Some prefer to do some tweaks here and there, clean up the system every week, waste a couple of hours reinstalling every few months.

Some don't mind spending a few extra bucks, so that they don't have to do the dirt job. (though, I must admit, that kind of contradicts the title of this argument).

Why I wrote such a long argument? I can't get sleep...


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## gxsaurav (Oct 14, 2006)

i better leave now....can't argue all the time to u 2 on your kiddish comments

Andy, was spotlight in developement?, who knows....now anyone can say it was when showed on longhorn, no one knows the truth here



> It's designed in such a way that it does not require an address bar. However, the next time you check out finder, click on Go>Go to Folder, and your address bar would be there. Shift+Apple+G works, too.


 
Didn't know that.

goobimama

1) Have u ever used Windows Backup, u don't even have to do it manually, it will automatically make backups on whatever time period. & by the way, isn't file specific backup something introduced in Windows server 2003 in the year 2003, i think it's called Volume shadow copy...maybe

2) Like i said previously, Apple copied virtual desktop from Linux....& named it Spaces, wonder why andy is not pointing this



> Some prefer to do some tweaks here and there, clean up the system every week, waste a couple of hours reinstalling every few months.


 
So, u don't clean your junk files, cookies, temporary files etc, right...thats quite nice


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## mediator (Oct 14, 2006)

Ahhh! Please dont leave the fight guys, I was watching the whole nice exciting fight like an observer. It entertained me quite a lot and enlightened me about a lotta things about mac.


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## mail2and (Oct 14, 2006)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> i better leave now....can't argue all the time to u 2 on your kiddish comments


Now that you've got your tail between your legs, you're quitting? Tsk Tsk.



> Andy, was spotlight in developement?, who knows....now anyone can say it was when showed on longhorn, no one knows the truth here



Yes, what proof you have that Apple did not have it in development?  You have no proof to show that. You, obviously, do not understand how operating systems are developed. I would say that if MS had introduced it in 'Longhorn', WHY ISN'T IT A PART OF A COMMERCIALLY RELEASED OS BY MICROSOFT, YET?

It was introduced in Apple's OS about ONE and HALF years ago.

I predicted it right :d, you did not reply to my other comments. It was, obviously, because you had no knowledge of this topic and were trying to troll by posting anything that came to your mind.





> 2) Like i said previously, Apple copied virtual desktop from Linux....& named it Spaces, wonder why andy is not pointing this



Yes, I forgot to mention that. It's nice that Apple did copy that 

I wish Apple do copy Konqueror, too. It's the best file manager out there. It leaves Finder and Windows Explorer far far behind.

Apple have based Safari on Konqueror; it's time to base Finder on it, too.

I'd suggest you go back 20 years to 1985-87, GX. Look at the lawsuits in those years. Maybe your perception of MS will change.


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## aryayush (Oct 14, 2006)

And anyway, the point of this article was not to show how MS is copying everything from Apple. Everyone knows it HAS been doing that since time immemorial, except for a few nutters!
All I wanted to point out was that features that are available on a Mac appear on a PC at least after one or more years. The Mac users have been launching applications and recovering lost files with the spotlight since April, 2005. Why is it only appearing in Vista's betas now? And that too, according to you, when it was conceptualised by Microsoft?!
See, you have never used a Mac and are defending yourself and your crappy OS of choice when you don't have much idea about the Mac platform. Run them side by side on one system (a feat you can achieve only if you have a Mac) and you will truly realise what you had been missing all along. I bet you will almost never boot into Windows.
And if you have read my article in its entirety, you will notice that I DID mention that MS scored over Apple when it comes to Flip (not Flip 3D) and Windows Media Center.
As for your argument that Flip 3D has not been copied from Exposé, well, it looks exactly the same thing from my, and of many respected technology experts including David Pogue's, point of view. The only visible difference is that Expose is pseudo-3D and Flip 3D is just that, 3D. The screen dims in both and both of them have a VERY similar animation. The difference that IS there has purposely been created to 'bastardize and diminish (it) in some way by definition' so that MS is shielded from the lawsuits and people like you can claim that it isn't copied. Of course, Exposé is far more useful and is more convenient to invoke. You just slide your mouse to the corner of the screen and it activates in a flash. I constantly find myself sliding my mouse to the screen corner when I am running Vista on Parallels (which, in case you didn't know, is a software that allows you to run any OS on Mac OS X without the need for a reboot).


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## goobimama (Oct 14, 2006)

This has never happened before. gx has, as anand says, put his 'small little' tail between it two ignorant legs and fled the topic! And if he does read 'this' post of mine, that means he didn't actualy leave, but he's watching from one corner of the world (even though the world doesn't have corners).


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## aryayush (Oct 14, 2006)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Windows Photo gallery is new, & it's nothing like iphoto....I haven't used iphoto so I can't say though


I can surely see how sure you are about what you say! Let me just rephrase that for you a bit:
"Windows Vista is new, & it's nothing like Mac OS X Tiger....I haven't used Tiger so I can't say though"
LOL!


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## mediator (Oct 14, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> Run them side by side on one system (a feat you can achieve only if you have a Mac) and you will truly realise what you had been missing all along. I bet you will almost never boot into Windows.


I like that kinda confidence! So guess mah VMWare list includes MAC too now. Wonder if it can be installed on it!

Neways I agree with @mail2and, he (@gxsaurav) cheated with me too in   (*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38169) *WIndows Vs Linux* debate which was getting interesting and fled in between .

Hey guys how much Physical memory Mac uses so that I can set it up in VMWARE??


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## aryayush (Oct 14, 2006)

Anything lower than 512 megabytes won't do it justice. I personally have two gigabytes of memory on my system and I allot one gigabyte to each OS when, and if, I boot Vista using Parallels. But I used to do that when Vista RC1 was released to check it out. Don't do it any longer now... for obvious reasons!
Tiger has really got a huge jungle to play in, and boy, it is fast! I selected thirty images, right-clicked and selected 'Open with Photoshop CS2'. The program was already running and the images opened in cascaded windows in two seconds flat. And this when Mail, Safari, iChat, iTunes, iPhoto, QuickTime, System Preferences, Adium, Microsoft Messenger, Opera and Yahoo! Messenger were already running.
I then booted into Windows XPee (using Boot Camp) and launched Adobe Photoshop CS2. Then I selected the same thirty images and hit return. It took *twenty two* seconds even with no other program running. Let's hope Windows Vista is not blown away so easily by Leopard... or even Tiger!


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## mediator (Oct 14, 2006)

^^Oh man! I guess I'll only be a mute spectator/observer then and wont be able to njoy mac.


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## aryayush (Oct 14, 2006)

I think I missed a point or two here. What is this 'VMWARE'?
Is it related to Microsoft's Virtual Machine?


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## mediator (Oct 14, 2006)

Yea VMWARE means MS Virtual machine.


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## goobimama (Oct 15, 2006)

VMWare is not longer used. We use Parallels now on the new Intel Machines. VM is very very slow. Parallels, coupled with enough RAM, gives near native speeds...


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## mediator (Oct 15, 2006)

^Hmmm, will install parallel too then.


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## aryayush (Oct 15, 2006)

Yeah, Parallels is definitely the best choice there is.


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## gxsaurav (Oct 15, 2006)

The usual thinking is that Microsoft is bad, it copies & it sux, even if they are trying to do something nice

I just read the news that MS will be removing some of the security features in vista, due to pressure from EC, now u tell me, is that viable

The problem is, Microsoft has so much market share out there, that even if they add a new feature or app in their own OS they get sued, saying that they are killing competition, I mean, no one sues Apple or Linux for bundling a lot of features & application, cos no one gives a damn, but if MS adds a new Photo viewer, they will get sued cos it's killing competition like Acdsee or Picasa.

The best thing about Windows is that, it has a lot of 3rd party developers, a lot of options to choose from which all work perfectly, unlike Mac, where there are only a few application, & the monopoly of Apple made apps rule the Mac market. Music player, well....its itunes, which monopolizes the Mac music player market. Video viewer well quicktime, cos apple bundles with the OS. In linux, there are numerous choices...but none as good in features compared to their Windows/Mac counterpart

Now Andy ones told me, that it's cos U can uninstall anything completely in Mac/Linux, unlike Windows where u cannot uninstall it completely. Well, isn't this what happens on Mac/Linux too when u uninstall something, other apps brake. I uninstalled Openoffice in ubuntu, & guess what it uninstalled Gnome desktop, meditator...why did that happened? & andy, u want to check if u can remove something completely, well, go & remove QuickTime, your MacOS will seize to function properly, as whole MacOS uses QuickTime engine, it's deeply integrated, just like WMP is on XP SP2

Aryoush

In leopard, Spotlight will for the first time have functionality to launh applications, something we already got in Vista, now whose copying. & u r talking about recovering files, like we windows users can't use search at all

& who said i have never used a Mac?



> The difference that IS there has purposely been created to 'bastardize and diminish (it) in some way by definition' so that MS is shielded from the lawsuits and people like you can claim that it isn't copied


 
U really are a troll fanboy. Like i said previously, sometimes an idea is so obvious that it comes on it's own, u cannot say it's copying, else Linux is the biggest copy cat out there. & why u started this discussion here in this thread, this thread was for the comparision of Mac & PC prices, u did not had anything to say on that topic so started trolling on this point

About Parallels, I have already used it on Windows, it sux, it's good for Mactel only. VMWare rox for Windows platform, & u cannot install MaOS X in Parallels workstation for Windows or Vmware

kafi kabil ho tum log, great.....keep reading & posting whatever u like...mere ko kya..achchar dalun kya


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## eddie (Oct 15, 2006)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> I uninstalled Openoffice in ubuntu, & guess what it uninstalled Gnome desktop, meditator...why did that happened?


 ID 10 T error? 
It didn't uninstall "Gnome desktop"...it just uninstalled "ubuntu-desktop" package...you don't need it and it will not mess anything up.
I didn't want to troll but please keep your comments to things you know about, else you just embarrass yourself...


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## mediator (Oct 16, 2006)

@gxsaurav...., seriously mahn, u r really amusing. I can't just stop mah laughing at ur posts now. This thread is about MAC, why r u dragging the mighty Linux here? To embarass urself even further??

U really got no sense, Neither to post in appropriate thread and nor to speak correctly. It excites me wheneva I debate with some genius person. But ur case is totally different and its lowering mah excitement below minimum threshold levels. U know nothing about MAC nor about Linux, but still?? Why r u making a serious mockery of urself here? First u come,make 4-5 absurd posts and then say I dont like to debate now and chicken out, and again reappear when the tone is low! What de heck.

*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38169
If u wanna speak about linux continue from here, where u chickened out without replying to mah posts or mods/gods gonna kill me for replying in irrelevant thread.

Don't u dare to say, mediator dont have points and thats why he's saying that. I can debate endlessly for windows Vs linux, but u disspaointed meh by chickening outta that thread.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Well, isn't this what happens on Mac/Linux too when u uninstall something, other apps brake


Are u asking or telling?? If ur telling then I can only sympathise with ur ignorance!

About the Gnome-desktop, damn eddie stole my pleasure of replying. I guess u don't even know "abcd" of linux, and wheneva u encounter any difficulty in Linux, u mistake it with a flaw or Linux error and become so excited that u post ur ignorance here absurdly. Seriously, these posts of urs may work in MS forums where people are so victimised that they dont even know they are a victim of windows. I guess someone needs to write a 10 page article there about Linux.

Sorry to be offensive, but dude If I start to reply to this post(#37)  of urs quoting every single line, then I can promise I can make u look even more pathetic. DOnt misunderstand, its for ur own sake. U shudn't take parts in debates where u have one sided knowledge. I'm only observing things here to know more about mac! So why dont u fill life into that Windows Vs linux thread again ?? If u wanna get enlightened, then I'll promise u supreme enlightenment!!! I guess this is the first time u got an award and MS-MVP has really blinded u. To be frank I got a lotta certificates for quizes about windows, projects on windows, projects on Linux, Linux programming but those are only essential for mah career. To be frank, they r immaterial to me and I dont boast about em in front of neone/everyone. Only a few people know that I achieved something. Neither they have changed mah attitude to see the light and nor they made me a fanboy either for windows or Linux.

I know both about windows and linux, and thats why i can say confidently that windows is better ONLY in gaming area compared to linux.

So I beg u dont post about things u dont know about.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> kafi kabil ho tum log, great.....keep reading & posting whatever u like...mere ko kya..achchar dalun kya


And for god sake, dont make these silly,frustrated remarks for these people. Its really annoying. Its human mentality, that makes him say such things when he has got dry lips and needs a glass of water as he has nothing new or valid to say. I see u aint quoted @Andy yet


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 16, 2006)

Woops, sorry, I thought ubuntu-desktop & gnome desktop are same. But still a Linux n00b doesn't know that

Meditator, I was pointing out where Mac is better & where it lacks, compared to other Operating systems

Windows users are victimized? How come

I have already said it previously on many such debates on this forum. better read those, isn't these the conclusion...prove me wrong on these poitns plz.....

Windows

Works everywhere, any hardware
Works all the time, u have a lot of hardware & software supported
Dirt cheap, PC hardware is available anywhere

Cons

User friendly, so less secure, admin right everywhere. Good things it's going to change
Maximum market share, due to which primary target of virus etc
The old saying: Intel inside, idiot outside, just use common sense
Not much in included out of the box, if they provide, they get sued

MacOS

Pretty User interface
Everything is inbuilt, a music player, a video player, ilife, etc....
Low market share, so less prone to Virus etc, no one gives a damn
Idiot proof, very stable cos the drivers are made by Apple & certified by Apple, like WHQL

Cons

Will install only on Apple Hardware, cos if they release for the masses like Windows/Linux, they will go bankrupt soon due to piracy. A good way to prevent that is to tie the Hardware to the OS, which they are doing.

Over expensive, the users act elite, like they are the only ones using a computer, who knows how to use a computer


----------



## aryayush (Oct 16, 2006)

Okay, time for some myth-busting. Hold onto your seatbelts, it is going to be a long and bumpy ride! 'gxsaurav', please do read this post, it just might do you some good and I do not mean that sarcastically.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> The best thing about Windows is that, it has a lot of 3rd party developers, a lot of options to choose from which all work perfectly, unlike Mac, where there are only a few application


There are more than four thousand four hundred and twenty free applications available for download for Mac OS X from Apple's official site itself. The paid software and the ones that are not listed on Apple's site, constitute a far higher number. I have been using the Mac for over four months now and I have yet to run into a single issue which requires me to boot into Windows to use some Windows specific application. I can view all sorts of video formats and listen to any audio. I can view any webpage on the internet using either Opera, Safari or Firefox, I can make a website, do photo, audio and video editing, web conferencing, read my emails, store my addresses, watch DVDs, use any instant messaging protocol... you name it! And to top that off, in case there is some wierd application that IS Windows specific, I can boot into Windows. For example, I can use FrontPage on my Mac, but you cannot use iWeb on your PC. The only difference between Windows and Mac is the QUANTITY of applications, not the VARIETY. If there are fifty media players on the Windows platform, there are ten on a Mac - but how many do you actually use?



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> the monopoly of Apple made apps rule the Mac market. Music player, well....its itunes, which monopolizes the Mac music player market. Video viewer well quicktime, cos apple bundles with the OS.


You say that like it's a bad thing. First of all, when you are using a Mac, you will - in all likelihood - prefer an Apple application to those made by third parties. However, if you do not wish to do so, the process of changing the default application for a specific task is simpler on a Mac than on Windows (just like everything else). Apple also has a comprehensive, properly organised and easily searchable list of most applications developed for the Mac platform on it's website.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> go & remove QuickTime, your MacOS will seize to function properly, as whole MacOS uses QuickTime engine, it's deeply integrated, just like WMP is on XP SP2


You know what, I tried that and it did not affect my system at all. In fact, had someone else removed it, I would never have noticed it's gone unless I clicked on it's icon (which even tells me that the application is in the Trash - more on this at the end of the post ***) or tried opening some QuickTime movie (and I can use VLC media player or NicePlayer to open that too). And uninstalling it was as simple as dragging it and dropping it onto the Trash in the dock. On the other hand, there is no uninstall option in even Vista for removing Windows Media Player should you feel like doing so.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> In leopard, Spotlight will for the first time have functionality to launh applications, something we already got in Vista, now whose copying.


Would you mind clearing out your facts before posting them on public forums and showing off your... intelligence! 
Press 'Command+Space' and type 'Q-U-I', hit return and QuickTime Player will be launched. In Windows Vista, press the Windows key, type 'M-E-D-I-A- -P', press the down arrow key and Windows Media Player will be launched. Obviously, Vista did not copy Spotlight at all, it was just a coincidence!
Spotlight has had the ability to lauch applications since it's inception, the feature will just be refined in Leopard so that you can launch applications will just three keys or two clicks and there will be a recent items menu built into Spotlight itself for even quicker launching of applications. This feature is not in Vista yet, but given that Apple has already publicly announced it, it's just a matter of a year or two before it is introduced in Vista by MS.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> u r talking about recovering files, like we windows users can't use search at all


LOL! Don't tell me you actually used the built-in search in Windows XP. I tried that a few times but gave it up as a bad job after repeated failures. And don't even get me started on how much time each search took to complete before returning the result:
'Sorry! No results found. Would you like to make future searches faster?
*'No, thanks for your trouble though! I'll try to ensure that I don't misplace any files in the future and call on your highness!!'*
At least, you can give credit to Windows for keeping its users organised. I am becoming very lazy about organising since switching to the Mac. I did start using search in XP again though, when Google intervened and gave us Google Desktop Search.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> & who said i have never used a Mac?


I think that would be me. I am sorry if I was wrong, but evidence so far suggests that you are as unaquainted to a Mac as a Penguin to Kolkata (for lack of a better simile).



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> U really are a troll fanboy


I suppose that's the truest statement in your entire post and it is, I suppose, the only thing you can say that you won't be demanded a reason for. I have no concrete proof to prove this statement false, so go ahead, use it as much as you can. At least, we won't have to hear the rest of the ridiculous things that we can prove false with absolute certainty and make you look like a fool. BTW, you are really hurting the venerable J.K. Rowling's sentiments be calling me a troll - you see, I am a really thin, average height guy who can speak english and has no wooden club to mash people like... never mind!



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> About Parallels, ... it sux, it's good for Mactel only.


Did I say anything otherwise? I said that 'Parallels is definitely the best choice there is' for running Windows on a Mac simultaneously. I never mentioned anything about Parallels Workstation 2.2 for Windows.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> u cannot install MaOS X in Parallels workstation for Windows or Vmware


Again, I never mentioned anything contradicting that and anyway, that IS the beauty of it! THAT is why I encourage people to buy a Mac, because that is the ONLY legal way to use Mac OS X. And the illegal way is very difficult to get up and running, and even then it will be plagued with lots of driver and compatibility problems.

**Quick tip:* Did you know that alises (shortcuts) on a Mac are dynamic and intelligent, not boring and stupid like in Windows. You make a shortcut to a file on your desktop in Windows (even Vista) and then delete the file. Click on the shortcut and you will get a message similar to:
'Error! The file you are trying to lauch has either been moved or no longer exists.'
WOW, that's helpful! If you know that much about the file, why couldn't you have just updated yourself when the file was either moved or deleted? And why are you leaving it on me to find out whether the file has been moved or deleted? Can't you just tell me that youself!
On a Mac, the aliases will always point to the file no matter where you move it. You can rename it, re-locate it, delete it, do anything with it. If it is on the system (apart from the trash), the shortcut will launch the file. If it's in the trash, the shortcut will tell you just that and offer to move it back for you and launch it. And even if it has been completely eliminated from the system, the shortcut will tell you that the file no longer exists on your system and will offer you the option of allowing it to delete itself. Now, that's user-friendliness! That is what speaks quality and attention to detail. That is why Apple makes outstanding products and others try to ape them!

See, I do not mean to abuse you or discredit you in any manner conceivable. You can only truly realise the beauty of using a Mac once you have done so for an appreciable length of time, say one week. You can simply NEVER return to the PC or Windows after that, unless you really start missing your anti-virus software or the Blue Screen of Death! I, as a genuine and friendly advisor, suggest you to please visit an Apple authorised reseller and ask them to give you a demo of an iMac (they are generally very glad to do so) and have a look at how things are done in the civilised world.
*CAUTION:* Please follow the above step only if you have the money to buy the iMac! I am not responsible for any mental instability that you might experience due to the result of having used an iMac and not being able to own it.

And, in the end, I am sorry if I hurt your feelings or some other deep sort of stuff by my rambling (though I did use extreme caution to avoid doing so). However, if you are not willing to pardon me, let me warn you that I have no bucks to pay you in case you decide to sue me! You might want to sue Apple instead as it is becoming a hobby and a potential profession nowadays! People are suing them left, right and centre for all the wackiest reasons and are making some quick bucks.  Apple, it seems, is also following the same policy and it suing people for naming their products with anything resembling 'POD'. That, according to them, is a new type of 'thinking different'!


*EDIT:* I saw mediator's reply after posting mine and am therefore editing it to add this:


			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Sorry to be offensive, but dude If I start to reply to this post(#37) of urs quoting every single line, then I can promise I can make u look even more pathetic.


I guess I already did that. But there is nothing to be embarassed about as long as you realise that there are some things where others are better than you and other things where you are better than others. For example, I have always loved your reviews and tutorials about Windows stuff, you are good at them. However, you simply cannot hold your own in a platform vs. platform debate unless you have used both of them extensively. But that does not mean that...





			
				mediator said:
			
		

> U shudn't take parts in debates where u have one sided knowledge.


You should. You really should! After all, it's great fun replying to your wacky and absurd posts! And, who knows, you might even have a few valid points every now and then. After all, Windows does have a few good things that a Mac doesn't. For example, ... the games ... the patches for games ... the demos ... XBOX compatibility ..... there are a few more... umm, never mind!


----------



## goobimama (Oct 16, 2006)

I can't help it! I have to add to the already huge amount of pasting that someone is getting here.



> In leopard, Spotlight will for the first time have functionality to launh applications, something we already got in Vista,


LOL! If Vista ever debutes, I will light sixteen candles on my dogs back and run around a tree made of chocolate.



> & who said i have never used a Mac?


I do too!

Thing is, iTunes and quicktime as so well integrated into the system, that one does not feel like touching them. You invoke frontrow, you get your music library. You are just about making a web page in iWeb (personally, I don't), all you iPhoto pictures are there. Its a seamless blend of perfectly designed applications that no one in their right mind would like to remove any of them.



> MS will be removing some of the security features in vista


Obviously. All the antispyware, antivirus, antiwhatever needs to make some money of their own. If MS is totally secure, the second most selling application, the Antivirus suite, would go totally useless.

Which reminds me, any idea on which is the least annoying antivirus software out there? I needed it on one of them office PCs. Each one is worse than a virus...

And what the hell has Linux got to do with all this? I've tried linux but every time i install, I have to run around the net searching for drivers and applications. There is no unity (an official Linux website). It is powerful no doubt, but one has to work to get it to do what you want. If one likes to tinker around "a lot", then linux is it!

Again, I'm bored and cannot get sleep....


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 16, 2006)

> There are more than four thousand four hundred and twenty free applications available for download for Mac OS X from Apple's official site itself.


 
U yourself said, what I wanted to say, there are more apps in Windows that means more choices.

Itunes , QuickTime etc is integrated, & no one likes to remove them, well, so is WMP & it works fine, so why are people commenting about it, cos it's MS, they have the market share, & they rule the market. 




> You say that like it's a bad thing. First of all, when you are using a Mac, you will - in all likelihood - prefer an Apple application to those made by third parties.


 
Of course it is a monopoly, if it is not, then why do u say, IE is crap & WMP is crap or Photo viewer in vista is crap, even Windows users will prefer a MS developed app, integrated in Windows instead of paying for it. But, other fan boys call it monopoly of MS




> However, if you do not wish to do so, the process of changing the default application for a specific task is simpler on a Mac than on Windows


 
Mind stating how it is hard ? R u saying we do not have the option to select file types to integrate with applications such as Media players or Image viewers in them...wow...I find your knowledge amusing

I hardly use search, that too when find a specific system file, cos I know how to manage my computer. That is what i said in my previous post, unless u know how to use an operating system u can't say it sux....u guys really don't know how to use Windows do U?

the reason i don't like Apple are....

well, just read the previous post & prove me wrong

About parallels, well....I was just informing where it lacks, don't know how u took it




> And what the hell has Linux got to do with all this? I've tried Linux but every time I install, I have to run around the net searching for drivers and applications. There is no unity (an official Linux website). It is powerful no doubt, but one has to work to get it to do what you want. If one likes to tinker around "a lot", then Linux is it!


 
U pushed the last nail in the coffin, the biggest problem with Linux, that u have to read half of Google to find anything  . Now no comments on Linux & Windows, meditator, this is the grand truth isn't it


by the way, i was comparing Linux just to show where it stand over Mac. Apple has taken a lot from open source community, what have they given back.


if u know apple shake 4.1, it was relesed a few months back with Mactel support, & the price was reduced for Mac from $3000 to $499, it is also available for fedora core 4, & now u tell me meditator, is it right to make it for fedore core only, i mean, Linux is Linux inside right, so the kernal is same.....& if it is soooo standerd complient, then why doesnt't it work with other linux, i think it's the mistake of Apple right, well, let me tell u the cost of Shake 4.1 for Linux, it's still $3000, so insted of buying it for linux, u can very well get yourself a nentry lavel macPro +Shake 4.1 for Mac. but hey, it's valid, it's ok if apple copies from open soure applications & MS, they are elite....cos it's Apple, it's ok if they force users to buy a Mac to run MacOS X & still say Windows is bad, cos it's Apple. Just tell me one thing, do u guys get paid to right about Mac or what? About linux i can understand, it's spreading, but Mac, Mac Fanboys are the worst

I used Mac, long before u guys ever tried it on PearPC or other such emulators, I used it in OS X 10.1 & 10.2 days, & it was not what it is today, it has developed, & apple charges for the new version, which are more like service packs, this adds to my previous post about the cons of Apple & MacOS X that it is overpriced

Still, no one has said anything regarding the points I mentioned above, stating the pros & cons of MacOS X & Windows....any takers. 

Well, i have been called a fanboy, i have been called an ignorent brat & whatever...well, i don't care what u guys say, I just had enough of this nonsence here fighting on point, that u guys don't even  know about


----------



## mediator (Oct 16, 2006)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Windows users are victimized? How come


Oh brother! U still say such things after I proven u wrong numerous times in that Linux Vs windows thread?? Guess u really dont read mah posts. Then all I can say is just experience Linux, get used to it and work on it normally for atleast a month without ur windows fanboyism!

And dude now u devating the topic to Mac VS Linux?? HOw pathetic can u get than this? Neways I like to know about that too, but u lost all mah trust in ur posts now. More than half the time u speak rubbish, post absurdly outta ignorance and at the end say "Whoops sorrry"!

Make some valid points (atleast one) so that every one may start liking ur posts!


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 16, 2006)

meditator, read the Windows vs Linux thread


----------



## mediator (Oct 16, 2006)

^^ Huh,  amusing. U tell me that? First complete by replying to mah previous posts there, then I promise to make u look more miserable!


----------



## eddie (Oct 16, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> You say that like it's a bad thing. First of all, when you are using a Mac, you will - in all likelihood - prefer an Apple application to those made by third parties. However, if you do not wish to do so, the process of changing the default application for a specific task is simpler on a Mac than on Windows (just like everything else). Apple also has a comprehensive, properly organised and easily searchable list of most applications developed for the Mac platform on it's website.


 I don't understand much of what gxsaurav is writing but this is one point of his that I did understand. He means that if Microsoft integrates stuff like Windows Media Player and Internet Explorer in its Operating System, the whole world makes a huge issue out of it and they get sued for millions. On the other hand when Apple does the same i.e. to integrate itunes, quicktime etc. in its OS, no one is saying anything. His problem is that people under such conditions act like fanboys instead of thinking logically. As far as sending itunes to trash and not noticing it, well you can do the same for windows media player but then European Commission didn't like it that way but they don't have any problems with Apple 

I personally feel that moving to Intel architecture will bring more attention to Apple and hence more law suites as well. I would love to see Apple getting sued just like how Microsoft was. That will clean some of their sins of not contributing back to open source


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 16, 2006)

thanx eddie, atleast someone understood my points

I don't have problem with linux or Mac, i got problems with it's fanboys. They act rubish, they speak like their OS is flawless & only Windows has flaws, anything Microsoft is bad, well then why use Microsoft Office on Mac, why not use openoffice on Mac.

The problems with Mac, are those i pointed out above, on which no one has replied. Mac is just preety UI, & a bubble that it's secure, it has no market share, why should someone make an adware for it, when only a minority will be affected, insted of making it for Windows, which is used widely

& yes, i m again saying, apple has a monopoly in Mac applications, I m not wrong regarding the fact about Apple shake 4.1 i pointed above


----------



## eddie (Oct 16, 2006)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> thanx eddie, atleast someone understood my *points*


 Not *points*...just *one point*. Rest of it was Quantum Physics for me


----------



## aryayush (Oct 16, 2006)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> U yourself said, what I wanted to say, there are more apps in Windows that means more choices.


Umm... I also said that 'the only difference between Windows and Mac is the QUANTITY of applications, not the VARIETY. If there are fifty media players on the Windows platform, there are ten on a Mac - but how many do you actually use?' You seem to have missed that point. Tell me one thing, how many media players are there for windows in the market? Say about hundred, or maybe more. Do you, as a Windows user, ever feel the need to use more than four media players? I have QuickTime, iTunes, RealPlayer, VLC media player and NicePlayer installed on my system and I rarely use anything other than QuickTime or iTunes. HOW IN THE WORLD DOES IT MATTER IF YOU HAVE A HUGE NUMBER OF STUPID CHOICES!!! It only makes things complicated. At the end of the day, you want the job done best and any application which lets you do it will be the one, and only one, you use.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Itunes , QuickTime etc is integrated, & no one likes to remove them, well, so is WMP & it works fine, so why are people commenting about it


Who is commenting about it apart from you? I never said a word against WMP. I only said that there is no straightforward method of uninstalling it and that is true. And I mentioned even that only because you started the topic about QuickTime being difficult to uninstall and all that crap. Personally, I had never even tried uninstalling WMP when I used Windows because it is one of the best media players for Windows and it is better than QuickTime IMHO. It has more options, richer features, lots of customisation options and above all, it is completely free, unlike QuickTime. The only problem is that it is a bit bloated and works slow, but it's okay. I don't mind that and I never complained about WMP. You can search the forum for it and I'm sure you won't find a comment against WMP from me.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Of course it is a monopoly, if it is not, then why do u say, IE is crap


Because it is. What? You think IE is a good browser? Hey friends, listen up here, this guy actually thinks Internet Explorer is a good browser!!! Unbelievable stuff!
Mate, follow my advice, please DO NOT leave your house alone from now on and visit a psychiatrist ASAP!



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Mind stating how it is hard ? R u saying we do not have the option to select file types to integrate with applications such as Media players or Image viewers in them...wow...I find your knowledge amusing


Did I say it was hard? Let me check... umm, I'm sorry but I cannot find the part where I said that.
I said it was simpler on a Mac than on Windows. Just because adding 'one' and 'two' is easy, does not mean that adding 'forty' and 'twenty' is difficult - the former is just simpler.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> I hardly use search, that too when find a specific system file, cos I...


... have no other option but to...





			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> manage my computer. That is what i said in my previous post, unless u know how to use an operating system u can't say it sux....u guys really don't know how to use Windows do U?


Okay, so if we lost a file and the OS cannot find it for us, it is us who do not know how to use the thing. Brilliant! How do you come up with such stuck up comments? I swear you are spending too much of your time on Nickelodean!



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> apple charges for the new version, which are more like service packs


Have you used Panther? Have you used Tiger? How can you say they are like service packs when you haven't? And if you have... it proves how simple a Mac is to use!

I will reply to the rest later. Got tutions now and am in a terrible hurry. Bye!
__________


			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> anything Microsoft is bad, well then why use Microsoft Office on Mac, why not use openoffice on Mac.


Let me enlighten you about the reason. About 90% of the people in the world use Microsoft Windows and most of them use Microsoft Office as their office software. Now, if Mac users do not use MS Office, they will be at loss themselves because the software they use instead won't be compatible with the standard MS formats. Therefore, we use MS Office. Now, OpenOffice has almost native-like support for the MS formats but MS Office is far better when compared to OpenOffice. Having said that, the MS Office suite for Mac is far better than all the versions of Office for Windows before the latest beta of MS Office Professional 12.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> The problems with Mac, are those i pointed out above, on which no one has replied. Mac is just preety UI, & a bubble that it's secure, it has no market share, why should someone make an adware for it, when only a minority will be affected, insted of making it for Windows, which is used widely


Whatever! Forget the reason. The fact is that you are very very secure on a Mac when compared to Windows. Why are you blaming it on the lack of market share or the disinterest of virus writers? What matters that there hasn't been a single virus for OS X yet that has affected anyone severly. Only two very small viruses have been discovered till now and they only did very minor damage to very stupid users (so you might be unsecure even with OS X  ).


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 16, 2006)

> Whatever! Forget the reason. The fact is that you are very very secure on a Mac when compared to Windows. Why are you blaming it on the lack of market share or the disinterest of virus writers? What matters that there hasn't been a single virus for OS X yet that has affected anyone severly. Only two very small viruses have been discovered till now and they only did very minor damage to very stupid users (so you might be unsecure even with OS X ).


 
A Flaw in Windows = critical, life threatening for a computer

A flaw in Mac = just a low level flaw,

Yeah right

& let me tell u one thing, u must be either joking or lying when u said u uninstalled QuickTime & still your Mac, itunes, iphoto were working fine

QuickTime is integrated in MacOS X quite deeply, itunes uses QuickTime audio engine & decoders to play music (this is not core audio), iphoto uses QuickTime image decoders & rendering engine to show the pictures on your screen, imovie uses QuickTime video engine to show the preview of movies in it

now, if u say, u uninstalled QuickTime, & still things worked fine, then this clearly means that even if u uninstall QuickTime in MacOS X, it just removes the player front-end & not the QuickTime decoders & engine, so again this is busting the myth of Mac users that u can completely remove anything in Mac, even Apples own software.

Just because of Apple's own software, their own drivers, their own hardware, it's so stable, if they release it publicly MacOS X will no longer be this stable, it will start to crash, cos there will be 3rd party drivers for it which may & may not be Apple certified

On a PC, things are different, there is an enormous number of hardware to choose from, u can use any kind of config, it's a great value for money, u can install on the same PC Windows or Linux, and however u cannot install MacOS on it, cos apple has tied it to their own hardware.

Due to this huge number of Hardware & software, stability problems arise, the cases of a BSD with WHQL drivers are one in a million.


----------



## mediator (Oct 16, 2006)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> manage my computer. That is what i said in my previous post, unless u know how to use an operating system u can't say it sux....u guys really don't know how to use Windows do U?


Please dont say such things, the people who use mac/linux here may be much better windows users than u, they might know much better than u on windows . But still despite all their tremendous efforts to keep windows in good shape, if they find windows weak in several apsects and mac/linux better than whats their fault??
Neways same can be said for u here, though u dont use mac/linux properly or r a noob, u still say they sux or r weak?? 
From the observation, I'm beginning to find MAC a good, strong distro and the supporters r giving convincing statements too! But still I wont form mah opinion if its weak or strong until I experience it mahself!
Neways from this post of urs it seems that 99.99% ppl dont know how to use windows and only u know the best! And then u say windows is user friendly, easy, stable........ etc? This statement of urs will mean that windows is more geeky than mac/linux!



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Just because of Apple's own software, their own drivers, their own hardware, it's so stable, if they release it publicly MacOS X will no longer be this stable, it will start to crash, cos there will be 3rd party drivers for it which may & may not be Apple certified


Also please stop making such annoying and absurd statements and using clauses like "If it wud have been","if they release","they will","in the past" or whateva. DEbate is on present scenario and not about past,future or something that may be possible! 

I guess this forum needs another section christened "MAC or APPLE" so that mac supporters don't make u look extremely miserable. And people like u and me can really be  enlightened about MAC!

So please make valid points here and make the discussion and my observation interesting!


----------



## aryayush (Oct 16, 2006)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> A Flaw in Windows = critical, life threatening for a computer
> 
> A flaw in Mac = just a low level flaw,
> 
> Yeah right


I have yet to hear of ONE case where a Mac user was infected by a virus. The two cases I spoke of were also ones that I had heard at news sites. On the other hand, I have heard many complaints of serious viruses infecting PCs in Siliguri itself. To heck with others, I have myself Windows XP (and 98 before that) several times due to viruses. And are you seriously wanting to debate on PC viruses vs. Mac viruses? Man, you must be crazy!



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> & let me tell u one thing, u must be either joking or lying when u said u uninstalled QuickTime & still your Mac, itunes, iphoto were working fine
> 
> QuickTime is integrated in MacOS X quite deeply, itunes uses QuickTime audio engine & decoders to play music (this is not core audio), iphoto uses QuickTime image decoders & rendering engine to show the pictures on your screen, imovie uses QuickTime video engine to show the preview of movies in it
> 
> now, if u say, u uninstalled QuickTime, & still things worked fine, then this clearly means that even if u uninstall QuickTime in MacOS X, it just removes the player front-end & not the QuickTime decoders & engine, so again this is busting the myth of Mac users that u can completely remove anything in Mac, even Apples own software.


Maybe you are right. However, that does not prove anything. iTunes has to use some technology to play movies and if it shares the technology with QuickTime so as to save on resources and not have to use two separate engines for doing the same task for different applications, I can only call it clever and resourceful engineering on the part of Apple's OS engineers. They are intelligent enough to allow me to remove QuickTime without making the other applications suffer. That's cool! What exactly do you want to prove by saying that we cannot uninstall Apple's software completely anyway? If we uninstall QuickTime and it is removed so completely that everything else goes kaput, you start complaining. If we uninstall QuickTime and everything works fine, you start cribbing that QuickTime is not fully gone. Did QuickTime stick it's leg up your... BEEP!



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Just because of Apple's own software, their own drivers, their own hardware, it's so stable


And your point is? It's stable, check. It's got great bundled applications, check. It is not prone to virus attacks and hackers, check. It can beat the crap out of any other operating system any given day, check. So, what seems to be the problem? How Apple maintains that is upto them. The point is that they offer absolute value for money. They make refined products that are far better than what others develop and they deliver a wonderful user interface to go with it.





			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Also please stop making such annoying and absurd statements and using clauses like "If it wud have been","if they release","they will","in the past" or whateva. DEbate is on present scenario and not about past,future or something that may be possible!


Exactly.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> u can install on the same PC Windows or Linux


u can install on the same *Mac* Windows or Linux too



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Due to this huge number of Hardware & software, stability problems arise


Are you a developer or an end user? I am an end user and I couldn't care less why the problems arise, all I know is that they are there on Windows and not on a Mac, which is why I prefer the latter. I don't need any stupid justifications.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> the cases of a BSD with WHQL drivers are one in a million.


This one really had me in splits. The BSD is seen by only one in a million users!!! I would put that figure closer to one in every... maybe... one and a half! I myself have seen it so many times that I have lost count. And you have too, I am ultra sure of the fact. And you can conduct a poll here and see how many people have seen it. In fact, I AM posting a poll about it right now. We'll see the results in a week.


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Oct 17, 2006)

well mate i haven't ever seen the BDOS ever . n any end user who uses his computer will not experience it , it's only when we tinker with system files and all that we rarely experience the BSOD


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 18, 2006)

Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> well mate I haven't ever seen the BDOS ever. n any end user who uses his computer will not experience it, it's only when we tinker with system files and all that we rarely experience the BSOD


 
Well said zeeshan, now I wonder, if Mac users are allowed to find out how which bin file work in Mac etc 




> Maybe you are right. However, that does not prove anything. iTunes has to use some technology to play movies and if it shares the technology with QuickTime so as to save on resources and not have to use two separate engines for doing the same task for different applications..............


 
Can u plz read above, I wrote this line just to prove that u are wrong when u said u can uninstall anything completely from MacOS X, unlike Windows where everything is integrated & removing it will give problems with OS. Just uninstall WMP in Windows XP or Vista, the engine & decoders are still there, but the player is not. So, all these years u were wrong when u said in MacOS U can completely remove an application when u simply drag it to trash, that’s the point

By the way, isn’t this the same thing happening in Windows from a long time, & wait, even Windows 2000 users with WMP6.4 can play WMV HD files fine, by just installing the codec, however MacOS X jaguar users cannot play QuickTime 7 files, at least panther is required...wow, great value for money man




> How Apple maintains that is upto them


 
how MS maintains windows is upto them, if they give a feature different from the one in other OS, however similar to some extent, u cannot say it's copying. Any graphics programmer can tell u Expose is not equal to Flip3D, the engine is different, the rendering is different, the technique is different, where do I see copying, no where




> They make refined products that are far better than what others develop and they deliver a wonderful user interface to go with it


 
Yeah, u r right, that’s the only thing good in a Mac, application based UI, u have to hunt for an application to do a task, not do a task which runs the appropriate application automatically...so which one is better




> The point is that they offer absolute value for money


 read page one again

Mac mini = cheapest Mac, in which u cannot upgrade anything other then RAM = 35k

iMac = All in one Mac, in which u can only upgrade, RAM, for other upgrades call Apple & pay them high prices, cos they use gold plated high quality Hard disk sleeves & sockets   = 63k

Mac Pro = Fastest computer yet, u only get 3 graphics card to chose from. One being low  end, good for video workstation only, one being high end in DirectX & gaming but sux at openGL (workstation tasks), one being ultra high end workstation card which sux at gaming (If Windows is installed). Well.....can I plug in graphics card of my choice, no wait....I can't but still despite of being bound to the hardware with no upgrade option it's still a value for money...yeah right

Well, maybe I don't have white color in front of my eyes, but I don't see Value for money here




> DEbate is on present scenario and not about past,future or something that may be possible!


 
Oh...k, then why were u talking about BSD in Windows 98 in the other thread...r u still using it right now, should I start speaking about Macintosh System 7 & 9 UI & functionality




> Are you a developer or an end user? I am an end user and I couldn't care less why the problems arise, all I know is that they are there on Windows and not on a Mac, which is why I prefer the latter. I don't need any stupid justifications.


 
if u don't know why they arise & if u don't want to know, then why r u saying it arises on Windows just cos Windows is bad, it's not Windows, it's poorly written application & drivers which do not pass proper validation, those which do, hardly ever create a crash, u do need justification. u were the one who started saying windows is bad & full of BSD, hey, why don't u mention about the kernel panic of MacOS

suppose u buy a car, & it doesn't starts, will u start complaining the manufacturer & buy a new car or find out why it is not starting




> This one really had me in splits. The BSD is seen by only one in a million users!!!


 
u got some problem in reading text or what,,......read again

The cases of BSD with *WHQL* drivers are one in a million


----------



## mediator (Oct 18, 2006)

zeeshan_quireshi said:
			
		

> well mate I haven't ever seen the BDOS ever. n any end user who uses his computer will not experience it, it's only when we tinker with system files and all that we rarely experience the BSOD


Thats one of the causes. Bsod's also occur due to installation of incompatible drivers (which i have seen bundled most of the times with hardwares cds), heat,ram problem,some softwares installed and a lotta other cases! Sometimes they leave u cluesless even when u know a lot about BSODs and then u refer to non-microsoft sites and forums coz MS supprt site is pathetic and rarely of use.
So its not "only when we tinker with system files"! Its has other cases too!



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> > DEbate is on present scenario and not about past,future or something that may be possible!
> 
> 
> Oh...k, then why were u talking about BSD in Windows 98 in the other thread...



Thats a poll created to express ur views according to thread creators wish. He may include win 95, linux, mac,unix or whateva. U have some problem?? Thats not a debate!! This is a debate! Have some crystal clear understanding and clear ur confusions about debates and polls!! Neways u wanna complaint about that thread then complaint in that thread.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> if u don't know why they arise & if u don't want to know, then why r u saying it arises on Windows just cos Windows is bad, it's not Windows, it's poorly written application & drivers which do not pass proper validation, those which do, hardly ever create a crash,


Dunno about him, but I don't say windows is bad! But then according to this statement of urs who are the victims?? Do the people have to be  serious geeks to know such things to work on windows?? This statement of urs clearly tells how weak windows is, that *even poorly written apps can crash the whole OS in one go*!! So windows stable?? forget it!!



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> suppose u buy a car, & it doesn't starts, will u start complaining the manufacturer & buy a new car or find out why it is not starting


Have some sense of giving appropriate examples dude!!
We buy clean XP without SP1 and Sp2 , we dont get a clue why BSOD's occur, shall we start finding the problem ourselves in windows?? If everyone was that good/geeky , then I guess even UNIX wud have been wiped out of existence!! Why did XP gave us "error reporting" service?? HOw did they released SP1 and SP2? All by themselves?? Did they tested that much themselves??  Open ur eyes dude and get rid of ur annoying and absurd fanboyism. Get some enlightenment dude. Customers feedback are a major part in sofware maintanence and improvement!! This is the last topic in software engineering if u remember i.e "TEsting and debugging" ! Why did they released "VISTA betas and all" and not the final official product??
So if a new car gets problems then it will get replaced ( or may get repaired by the customer himself ), but since u have no sense of giving examples too, I'll say we'll complaint against Microsoft if Xp didnt worked the first time. And to tell u thats a major fact in US. Most people openly complaint against MS and get their money back or problem solved coz customer care and *customer rights are given importance there*!! WHo'll ask to repair windows? They might get another BSOD! How can the customer fix the closed source software himself even if he's extreme geek forget about the noobs?? Shud the customer wait for a week/months/yrs to get the updates or service packs?? So have some sense and give some comparable examples in future!

Neways nice the debate is getting interesting


----------



## eddie (Oct 18, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> Maybe you are right. However, that does not prove anything. iTunes has to use some technology to play movies and if it shares the technology with QuickTime so as to save on resources and not have to use two separate engines for doing the same task for different applications, I can only call it clever and *resourceful engineering* on the part of Apple's OS engineers. They are intelligent enough to allow me to remove QuickTime without making the other applications suffer. That's cool! What exactly do you want to prove by saying that we cannot uninstall Apple's software completely anyway? If we uninstall QuickTime and it is removed so completely that everything else goes kaput, you start complaining. If we uninstall QuickTime and everything works fine, you start cribbing that QuickTime is not fully gone. Did QuickTime stick it's leg up your... BEEP!


 You don't get the point do you? He is just saying that the scenario is similar to that of Windows Media Player. Microsoft was sued by RealNetworks for showing exactly that kind of "resourceful engineering".
*news.com.com/EU+slaps+record+fine+on+Microsoft/2100-1001_3-5178281.html
They were forced to produce an entirely different version of Windows for Europe. Microsoft were forced to pay a huge sum of money as fine because they showed "resourceful engineering". He is just saying that everything about Microsoft seems wrong to people and people get their panties up their a$$es while Microsoft's rivals are doing the same things.



> And your point is? It's stable, check. It's got great bundled applications, check. It is not prone to virus attacks and hackers, check. It can beat the crap out of any other operating system any given day, check. So, what seems to be the problem? *How Apple maintains that is upto them.* The point is that they offer absolute value for money. They make refined products that are far better than what others develop and they deliver a wonderful user interface to go with it.


Recently Vista tried to do the same. They blocked kernel level hooks to provide better stability/security but all the Antivirus and other security software manufacturing companies threw a fit. Some of them were threatening (not in clear terms) to sue Microsoft again. What choice did Microsoft have? They had to open Kernel level insertions. Now, why does no one care about Apple when they are doing the same? Its simple...Apple are minnows in Desktop segment. Going after them would be foolish waste of monetary resources. So rather than justifying that what they are doing is right...just enjoy...just enjoy till it lasts!!! It won't be long before people will be whipping Apple's a$$es and I for one would love that day 
__________


			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Thats a poll created to express ur views according to thread creators wish. He may include win 95, linux, mac,unix or whateva. U have some problem?? Thats not a debate!! This is a debate! Have some crystal clear understanding and clear ur confusions about debates and polls!! Neways u wanna complaint about that thread then complaint in that thread.


 Someone else mentioned about this thread in that thread before he did something like this...
*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showpost.php?p=326287&postcount=32

Seriously man...cut the kid some slack...


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 18, 2006)

> Bsod's also occur due to installation of incompatible drivers (which i have seen bundled most of the times with hardwares cds), heat,ram problem,some softwares installed and a lotta other cases!


 
This is what i m trying to tell u from day one, it's not the flaw of Windows because of which BSD & crashes come, it's also the flaw of 3rd party applications



> This statement of urs clearly tells how weak windows is, that *even poorly written apps can crash the whole OS in one go*


 
So, where was i wrong in it? it's trus obviously that poorly written application can crash your system, i mean, u are speaking in a manner that if windows crashes due to a buggy driver it's not the fault of the driver it's the fault of Windows...wow, great thinking man. Like with a poorly written application Mac/Linux won't crash

& seriously meditator better if u stay in that Windows vs Linux thread only, this is Windows vs Mac thread, i don't u have ever used a Mac, have u?

arayush

abe can't u read properly or what, I clearly said, Cases of BSD in Windows with WHQL drivers are one in a million, i never said, chances of BSD in Windows with improper drivers & poorly written application are rare.

Or u just don't know what WHQL is, Apple does the same thing, they test & validate the drivers for MacOS cos there are only a few hardware solution to chose from, only a few chipsets, only a few CPU, & only a few graphics card, so, they have total control over the driver checking phase, however in case of Windows there are many hardware configs available, MS checks most of them, but can't check all, else drivers will take 2 months to relese, & then u will again whine, that driver releses on Windows are slower, u just need a point to troll isn't it

In the end...i would say, this thread can be easily concluded as

Windows is Insecure, buggy, crashes like hell, lacks features out of the box

Microsoft cannot make Windows secure

Microsoft cannot give features in Windows

Microsoft cannot give a stable platform due to a very huge ammount of hardware & softares available (more then 4500 for Mac atleast)

now, these are the problems, Microsoft cannot even fix this, not because they can't, *but because they are not allowed*

When this symantec & MS battle started over Kernel patchguard, i said one line in a thread i remember, that Symantec will soon sue MS & say " U cannot make Windows secure, you are not allowed to" which is what exectly happened

& in case of Mac, they included everything out of the box (but no one sues them, no one gives a damn), it's stable (it runs only on a few fixed hardware configs), the drivers are stable (as there are only a few hardware configs), it has no virus (tell me a single hacker who would like to crack 4% computer users out there only, insted of 90% others).


----------



## mediator (Oct 18, 2006)

eddie said:
			
		

> Someone else mentioned about this thread in that thread before he did something like this...
> *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/show...7&postcount=32


I know that bro! but the quotation I marked and u marked are different! In one person is just telling that he added a poll and in other the person is fighting over that poll in this thread ! I hope u got the point. He may add a poll too of his choice! Why fight over it??



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> So, where was i wrong in it? it's trus obviously that poorly written application can crash your system, i mean, u are speaking in a manner that if windows crashes due to a buggy driver it's not the fault of the driver it's the fault of Windows...wow, great thinking man. Like with a poorly written application Mac/Linux won't crash


Sorry to burst the bubble. But I can promise *Linux wont crash* like pathetic windows with poorly written apps!! Wanna get enlightened how?? Then open a thread on open source section and i'll enlighten u with full fledged details!! I dunno about mac!! Ur noob to linux, so please dont fight on linux and add further misery to urself!! U Better stay quiet about Linux.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> & in case of Mac, they included everything out of the box (but no one sues them, no one gives a damn), it's stable (it runs only on a few fixed hardware configs), the drivers are stable (as there are only a few hardware configs), it has no virus (tell me a single hacker who would like to crack 4% computer users out there only, insted of 90% others).


It seems u like to share plight of windows and justify it a lot. If an OS is stable then its stable, why make stupid justifications?? Why r u justifying ur misery on windows due to crashes because of blablabla. The point is that it crashes. If the day comes when mac starts to crash, then I may change mah opinion about mac. But then its "If that day comes"! Talk about today and dont make justifications that viruses attack windows becoz its popular. If its popular then it shud have gotten a lot more secure than linux/mac since the day the windows thing started and the heart of windows shud have been virus-proof by now !! Don't blame the politics for that. 

If a customer wants stability,security etc and shown with boxes one with windows and other with mac/linux etc, then he will just see the performance and stability and all he wants. He wont give a damn to the manufacturer's politics and its plight or show some brotherhood to the company!



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Windows is Insecure, buggy, crashes like hell, lacks features out of the box


Present scenario!



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Microsoft cannot make Windows secure


It shud have by now!!



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Microsoft cannot give features in Windows


Who says?? It can and I guess u like to share their plight for it!


			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> & seriously meditator better if u stay in that Windows vs Linux thread only, this is Windows vs Mac thread, i don't u have ever used a Mac, have u?


U need memory pills! I already told so many times, I'm here to know more about MAC. But if u say wrong about windows, then ofcors I'll quote u! So beware of talking nonsense and invalid statements.


----------



## goobimama (Oct 18, 2006)

Seriously gx. If you were a hacker/cracker about to write a virus, would you like to be the creator of the 79430th virus for windows, or the first real virus for the mac, even though its just 4%. Tell me.


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 18, 2006)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gxsaurav*
> _Microsoft cannot give features in Windows
> _
> ...


 
Meditator, why r u quoting only half of what i said, why don't u write the full line & comment on that, and do u also have some problem in reading text.....can't u see what me & eddie said above



> now, these are the problems, Microsoft cannot even fix this, not because they can't, *but because they are not allowed to*


 
I clearly gave reason why Windows crashes, if it's the fault of the driver, u cannot blame Windows OS for it

Seems to me U & Aryaush are either one person playing as both...or connected in some trollish sence


----------



## aryayush (Oct 18, 2006)

Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> well mate i haven't ever seen the BDOS ever . n any end user who uses his computer will not experience it , it's only when we tinker with system files and all that we rarely experience the BSOD


Of the thirty-one people who have voted in the BSoD thread, only six claim to have never experienced the BSoD. And I am not including people who did not vote but reported that they have seen many BSoDs.
You said that people do not experience BSoDs unless they tinker with the system files. First and foremost, it is not expected of a spanking new Windows XP installation to show a BSoD on first boot anyway and I never claimed that. And what do you mean by tinkering with system files? Opening some critical file in the 'system32' folder and editing it yourself? Or making changes to the boot configuration file? Well, not many people do those things, man. And those that do generally know what they are doing and therefore, do not experience many problems. The problems are faced by innocent end-users who see the BSoD due to some application install gone awry, some malware or virus, improper shutdown, taxing the OS beyond the capability of the hardware, etc. Who cares whose fault it is! The problem is that people have been experiencing the Blue Screen of Death in Windows since it's inception and the legacy has even been continued in Vista (red, in it's case). On the other hand, I have done lots of mods and hacks on my Macintosh and I have yet to experience a single crash. Applications hang sometimes, but it is as simple as right-clicking on their icon and selecting 'Force Quit'. They do not take the whole system down with themselves. And applications getting stuck is also a very rare phenomenon.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Well said zeeshan, now I wonder, if Mac users are allowed to find out how which bin file work in Mac etc


It's not easy to do so even on Windows. Only the most enthusiastic geeks do stuff like that and they have a level playing field on the Macintosh. You can execute a few lines of UNIX code and do stuff like controlling the speed of your fans and when they should come on. I have done it. But I messed it up. My MacBook Pro heated up like bread in the toaster after only fifteen minutes of usage and I panicked. And then it suddenly hung for... like, twenty seconds. Then I got this a message that said 'it seems there have been made some changes to the base code of your system which might lock up your system. Would you like to restore the defaults from the automatically backed up system files?' I hit return and my laptop started making a faint noise as the fans came back on. And it was restored to normal temperature within a few minutes. The OS should be able to handle follies made by the user because the user is not always as expert as Microsoft, and you guys, expect them to be.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Can u plz read above, I wrote this line just to prove that u are wrong when u said u can uninstall anything completely from MacOS X, unlike Windows where everything is integrated & removing it will give problems with OS. Just uninstall WMP in Windows XP or Vista, the engine & decoders are still there, but the player is not. So, all these years u were wrong when u said in MacOS U can completely remove an application when u simply drag it to trash, that’s the point


I said installing and uninstalling applications was as easy as dragging and dropping them wherever you want. And you know as well as the next person that it is a (comparatively) complicated process in Windows. I never objected to the fact that WMP or QuickTime cannot be completely uninstalled. How does it matter whether they are on the system or not. If you want to uninstall them, there should be a simple and straightforward method to do it and this is where Windows lags behind. As I already said, there is no setup wizard for uninstalling WMP in Windows. Furthermore, I only brought up the topic of uninstalling QuickTime because you said that uninstalling it will make the Mac OS go kaput. When I proved that wrong, you are making other excuses now. I already told you that I don't think any Windows user would want to uninstall WMP anyway and the same is true for the Mac, and I do not have any problem with Windows bundling WMP with it's OS. In fact, I would have had a problem if WMP was not bundled with Windows.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> By the way, isn’t this the same thing happening in Windows from a long time, & wait, even Windows 2000 users with WMP6.4 can play WMV HD files fine, by just installing the codec, however MacOS X jaguar users cannot play QuickTime 7 files, at least panther is required...wow, great value for money man


What do you mean by QuickTime 7 files? There is no seperate format for QuickTime 7. You must understand that technology has evolved since Mac OS X Jaguar and therefore, it cannot play the DivX and Xvid encoded files that Panther and Tiger handle with ease. The same is true for Windows too. Even WMP 6.4 cannot play DivX and Xvid encoded files.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Any graphics programmer can tell u Expose is not equal to Flip3D, the engine is different, the rendering is different, the technique is different, where do I see copying, no where


I see copying in the basic idea and also a lot of similarities in the implementation. The whole internet is abuzz with how MS has copied Flip 3D from Exposé but you won't agree. Actually, the reason you are not agreeing is that you have not used Exposé yet. Use it once and you will realise that Microsoft has simply ripped it off from OS X. But as I mentioned in the post on my blog, I really do not give a damn whether they copy or not. If they can implement it better in Windows, if they can somehoe refine the technology, it's good. But they actually came up with a poorer solution than Exposé. Can you tell me one useful purpose that Flip 3D serves apart from looking cool (and terribly alaised)? Exposé has a simplistic charm, a very refined and smooth animation and is single-handedly enough to convince anyone to buy a Mac. It is the best way ever to manage multiple windows. Period.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> u have to hunt for an application to do a task, not do a task which runs the appropriate application automatically


As if Windows comes with every application you will ever need pre-installed and you do not need to hunt for any applications! Or maybe whenever you open a file that is not recognised, Windows automatically downloads the best application for it and runs it for you!! As if you never hunt for applications for Windows!
In fact, since Mac OS X comes with a lot of bundled applications with it and has a huge list of applications on it's website itself, it is easier to find an application for a Mac than it is for Windows.
No, actually it is the same if you know how to use Google. I never had a problem finding an application for Windows and I have yet to encounter a problem finding an application for the Mac. This is a very baseless point you mentioned.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Oh...k, then why were u talking about BSD in Windows 98 in the other thread...r u still using it right now, should I start speaking about Macintosh System 7 & 9 UI & functionality


I took the latest five releases of both the companies. You are debating on the whole OS X series here, so you should include all Windows version starting from Windows 98.
However, I am sure that even if you compare Windows 98 to Mac OS 9 (but not 8 and 7), you will find that the Mac was still better from the OS point of view... but it had a lot of compatibility problems and because it ran on PPC processors, it wasn't really ideal to buy a Mac at that time anyway. But the scenario has dramatically changed now and Macs clearly have an edge over PCs.
Why are you getting so insecure anyway!!! 



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> u got some problem in reading text or what,,......read again
> 
> The cases of BSD with WHQL drivers are one in a million


I was talking about BSoDs in general and you say that 'The cases of BSD with WHQL drivers are one in a million'. What sense does that make! Why are you only considering one cause. We are talking about how often Windows crashes as opposed to a Mac. And even then we are only considering the BSoDs though there are other ways in which Windows crashes too - sometimes it just hangs, there are abrupt reboots sometimes, the interface changes to classic and refuses to change back no matter what you do, etc. - but I did not even include them.



			
				eddie said:
			
		

> Microsoft was sued by RealNetworks for showing exactly that kind of "resourceful engineering".
> *news.com.com/EU+slaps+record+...3-5178281.html


Okay, I did not know about that case. It indeed seems that Microsoft has been wronged out there and I am on MS' side in that case. However, this is all business. Apple has also been on the receiving end of countless lawsuits, albeit of a different nature. But still, I would have supported MS had my opinion counted in the matter.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> So, where was i wrong in it? it's trus obviously that poorly written application can crash your system, i mean, u are speaking in a manner that if windows crashes due to a buggy driver it's not the fault of the driver it's the fault of Windows...wow, great thinking man. Like with a poorly written application Mac/Linux won't crash


No, it won't. One great example is Windows Messenger for Mac, it is a very buggy piece of software that hangs and crashes every now and then but it has never crashed my system. There have been some other third party apps too that have been buggy. But it's always the applications themselves that stop responding due to the bugs it has, it has never even affected the other applications running alongside, leave aside the whole operating system. You know what, that's the beauty of it. As a seasoned Windows user, it will be hard to believe for you (if and when you buy a Mac) that you can simply take your machine home, plug it in and start using it. You won't need to install security sotware and you won't need to restart your OS every now and then due to bugs or poorly written applications. It's the 'just works' nature of a Mac that truly makes it a worthy product and far better than what the competition has to offer.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Windows is Insecure, buggy, crashes like hell, lacks features out of the box
> 
> Microsoft cannot make Windows secure
> 
> ...


You are insulting Microsoft by saying all that. Seriously, do you think the company is run by a bunch of stupid teenagers whom anyone can sue and make them do what they wish to! LOL! Microsoft is one of the biggest companies in the world and it is run by none other than Bill Gates, the richest man in the world and the most shrewd and successful entrepreneur and businessman. The company can take care of itself and it can buy companies like Symantec and RealNetworks if it wants to. And it definitely does not need wannabe Windows enthusiasts and random forumers like you and me to garner pity for the company. It is a giant multi-national behemoth that is responsible for the business, eductional and entertainment needs of millions of people around the globe and if it is not being able to handle the task effectively, whatever the reasons, it will have to shoulder the blame for it and nothing you or anyone can say is going to change that. Seriously, the way you said, 'they are not allowed', it sounded as if someone caught their hand, patted their cheek and said, _'Nahin munna, aise nahin karte!'_ Grow up!



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> & in case of Mac, they included everything out of the box (but no one sues them, no one gives a damn)


So? Is that the company's fault? And you seem to have been missing the news nowadays, people are suing Apple like crazy for incredulous reasons such as 'iPod Nanos are easily scratched' and 'iPods are too loud' (just lower the volume, you twits!).



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> it's stable (it runs only on a few fixed hardware configs), the drivers are stable (as there are only a few hardware configs)


That is their policy and it is effective. They have a much smaller market share because of that but those who are their customers are pretty satisfied with their computers and hold the company in high esteem.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> it has no virus (tell me a single hacker who would like to crack 4% computer users out there only, insted of 90% others).


You know what, most virus writers hack into an OS because there is money involved. These generally follow the easiest route available and therefore, attack products which are already full of security loopholes. Obviously, Windows is the ideal playing ground for them and therefore, there are so many viruses for Windows (and it IS Microsoft's fault, no matter what you say). But there are others who do it not for the bucks, but for the challenge it is, for the feeling of self-pride and satisfaction of having cracked a seemingly uncrackable piece of code. These virus writers try to hack Mac OS X and they do find flaws sometimes (which are promptly fixed by Apple, as also by Microsoft) but there are simply too few flaws to actually pose any serious security threat. Mac OS X has been around for a long time and Apple and enthusiasts like me have been boasting from day one about how secure it is - do you think there are no virus-writers who have been motivated to hack the Mac!!! LOL! I do agree that as Macs gain in popularity and have a wider user base (and that is bound to happen), there will undoubtedly be a lot of hackers who will be attracted towards the new vista (no pun intended) and will try to crack it. They may also unleash a few serious viruses, but the threat will always be negligible compared to Windows because, accept it now, Mac has been built from the ground-up with security firmly in place and is inherently more secure than any other operating system in existence and specially Windows.

I also have a little more to say about Exposé vs. Flip 3D. This is something I found once when reading something on the internet and saved it for future reference:


> Eye-candy for the sake of eye-candy is pointless. Expose vs. Windows Flip 3D for application switching for example. Flip 3D (a 3D stack of your windows) is fancy and flashy but offers little to no value. Expose isn’t as flashy, just resizing some windows, but its hugely useful.
> 
> What so few fail to understand is that its not Apple’s flair for design that makes them succesful. Its how they USE that design to make their products more useful to the user. The iPod isn’t a success because it looks pretty (although it helps) or because its crammed with features (its not) its succesful because it does something, and does it REALLY WELL, play music, and now media. But unlike the Zune which lets you clutter up your interface with a background picture, the iPod keeps it clean. Visit just about any mySpace page and you’ll get lots of “eye candy”, and you won’t be able to read a thing (not that there is ever much worth reading).
> 
> KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid.


This extract sums it up quite brilliantly, I must say.


----------



## mediator (Oct 18, 2006)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Meditator, why r u quoting only half of what i said, why don't u write the full line & comment on that, and do u also have some problem in reading text.....can't u see what me & eddie said above
> 
> 
> > now, these are the problems, Microsoft cannot even fix this, not because they can't, but because they are not allowed to


U dont get fast do u? I already said that the customers aren't interested as to why the microsoft can't fix it. All know microsoft can fix it, but who cares if the things aren't going appropriately and according to MS. No body cares if they are not allowed to fix it. All the customer care about is performance!! So stop justifying ur silly MS support and fanboyism by saying "It can't", "They'll get sued", "Its politics" or whateva. MOst people don't even know such things and aren't bothered about it!

Neways u say I quote half the point?? I alread replied to such thing before, but doing so again specially for u coz it seems u have a very bad habit of forgeting what others already said and then keep making urself look miserable. 



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> If a customer wants stability,security etc and shown with boxes one with windows and other with mac/linux etc, then he will just see the performance and stability and all he wants. He wont give a damn to the manufacturer's politics and its plight or show some brotherhood to the company!


Remember this?? Its just was mah previous post. Why didn't u quote this?? ANd I can bet u won't quote all my points in ur next post too !!

*So stop saying that others dont quote u, coz u didn't even quoted/replied to even 30% of points made by me and points made by others in Linux Vs windows debate. All u did was make absurd,ignorant and invalid posts after posts and make personal comments. All were replied by me and none by u properly.* 



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> I clearly gave reason why Windows crashes, if it's the fault of the driver, u cannot blame Windows OS for it


U said it also crashes due to poorly written apps. Why r u changing statements?? Just because I proved u wrong on Linux and told How weak windows is?? Ur posts are getting miserable after each post.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Seems to me U & Aryaush are either one person playing as both...or connected in some trollish sence


Started to make personal comments again and radiate ur true form huh?? Why don't u quote other valid points instead?? Absurd,pathetic,obscure etc..... are the words I'll use to describe it. Don't u have nething better to say?? atleast make some valid points!! Ur giving new values to threshold of misery and make urself look even more pathetic!! Neways trollish?  U a windows fanboy says such thing?? Amusing!

Can I and everyone expect some sane statements from u ?? MVP?? yea right!! U cudn't make a lotta valid point either here or in Linuxv Windows debate and I guess the stock of ur invalid points is over here too now.

I guess the thread will witness all kinda of absurd,personal comments now from u.

U totally ruined mah observation.


----------



## drvarunmehta (Oct 18, 2006)

Apple comes up with all these great innovations while Microsoft copies from them and passes stuff off as their own. But at the end of the day it's a Microsoft OS that resides on more than 95% PC's and Microsoft that pockets all the cash. In my book that makes Apple the bigger idiot than Microsoft.


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## eddie (Oct 18, 2006)

Believe me man...Apple would be the last company to ever complaint about "copying". A company that copied the kernel...the initial UI and every little app it has from random places would dare not even say the word "copy". I am sure that if you mention the word "copy" to Steve Jobs...he would be running a million miles away from you


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## gxsaurav (Oct 18, 2006)

eddie said:
			
		

> Believe me man...Apple would be the last company to ever complaint about "copying". A company that copied the kernel...the initial UI and every little app it has from random places would dare not even say the word "copy". I am sure that if you mention the word "copy" to Steve Jobs...he would be running a million miles away from you


 
no man, he will patent the word, & release a new technology in Mac by the name *iCopy,* by which u can copy anything anywhere. & just because it's in Mac it won't be smiliar to normal copy paste


----------



## aryayush (Oct 18, 2006)

I don't want to start an argument there so I am replying to your post here:


			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Again, if this thread is about BSD only, then why r u saying this thread is about Widnows vs Macintosh?


blackpearl told me that including Windows 98 did not make sense, so I had to explain to him why I did that. Then Sourabh questioned that the number of BSoDs wasn't a yardstick for comaring two OSes, so I told him that I started a poll because you challenged me that BSoDs were very rare on a Windows PC. I do not wish to drag a Windows vs. Macintosh flame war in that thread at all.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> & seriously, should i print it out & send to your home .....read again, i said, The cases of BSD with* WHQL* drivers are one in a million





			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> I was talking about BSoDs in general and you say that 'The cases of BSD with WHQL drivers are one in a million'. What sense does that make! Why are you only considering one cause. We are talking about how often Windows crashes as opposed to a Mac. And even then we are only considering the BSoDs though there are other ways in which Windows crashes too - sometimes it just hangs, there are abrupt reboots sometimes, the interface changes to classic and refuses to change back no matter what you do, etc. - but I did not even include them.





			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> We do not have access to Mac, we cannot say, if u r lieing about the fact that Mac don't get kernel panic & crashes, maybe even they do a lot, but we cannot find that out


As if I can be totally sure that you are not lying. As if you are Maryaada Purushottam! Why would I want to lie anyway! If I had faced some problem with my Mac, I would mention it without hesitation. But the fact is that there aren't any problems with my Mac to tell you about. Sure, I would have loved something like 'Hibernation' on my Mac, but given that it boots up faster than Windows XP (and even Vista) resumes from Hibernation, it is not a very sorely missed feature. And I simply haven't run into any problems with my Mac. I hasn't hung even once, it hasn't given me any strange error messages, and there are certainly no blue screens - it is working flawlessly.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> MacOS X, 5 releses in 5 years , biggest joke of the century. just one major relese & 5 refreshes. How many Operating systems MC relesed in the same time
> 
> Windows XP
> Windows XP MCE
> ...


LOL! You have counted the releases not for the PC but for the mobile, tablet PC and server. LOL! How funny and insecure can you get! You might as well include Windows XP Service Pack 2 and Vista Beta 1, beta 2 and release candidate 1. You might also want to throw in the Windows XP unofficial service pack 3 (made by some third party)! Ha! Ha! You have single handedly provided me with hours of non-stop laughs for the past few days. Thanks! 
__________


			
				eddie said:
			
		

> Believe me man...Apple would be the last company to ever complaint about "copying". A company that copied the kernel...the initial UI and every little app it has from random places would dare not even say the word "copy". I am sure that if you mention the word "copy" to Steve Jobs...he would be running a million miles away from you


Oh! Mind enlightening me where they copied these things from? You said 'random places' - isn't that a bit too vague.
And let us suppose they DID copy something from somewhere, but at least they did not dish out something that was worse than the original! They got the idea of Dashboard from Konfabulator, but which is better.
On the other hand, MS copied Flip 3D from Exposé, but which is better (don't make fools of yourself by saying that you actually think Flip 3D is better than Exposé).
In the words of _digit_:


> someone thinks of it, and others get inspired.


But that inspiration should result in a better product, not in one that is worse than the original.
Anyway, I'm still waiting to hear where Apple got stuff for OS X from.


----------



## eddie (Oct 18, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> Oh! Mind enlightening me where they copied these things from? You said 'random places' - isn't that a bit too vague.
> And let us suppose they DID copy something from somewhere, but at least they did not dish out something that was worse than the original! They got the idea of Dashboard from Konfabulator, but which is better.


 You are kidding right? You actually replied to the copy comment and that too in negative? My dear friend...look at Apple's history and you will be amazed what all Apple has copied and what all they have actually "created". They don't just copy stuff...they simply take the whole code...

They took BSD's kernel, they took Xerox's UI, they took KDE's browser (konqueror), they took CUPS printing engine, they took Kopete's code in iChat and you come in here talking about copying? Go to the Apple cave and start reading some history books. Also, don't make fool of yourself thinking that they create everything. Sheesh...


----------



## aryayush (Oct 18, 2006)

eddie said:
			
		

> You are kidding right? You actually replied to the copy comment and that too in negative? My dear friend...look at Apple's history and you will be amazed what all Apple has copied and what all they have actually "created". They don't just copy stuff...they simply take the whole code...
> 
> They took BSD's kernel, they took Xerox's UI, they took KDE's browser (konqueror), they took CUPS printing engine, they took Kopete's code in iChat and you come in here talking about copying? Go to the Apple cave and start reading some history books. Also, don't make fool of yourself thinking that they create everything. Sheesh...


Okay, since I don't know much about Apple's history, I won't argue with you. Maybe they did copy from the places you mentioned. However, you are exaggerating it by saying that they copied the code straight off. As if you were in their labs when they were copying and pasting it or you have compared the source codes!
And anyway, which is better: BSD's original kernel or Mac's refined one? Xerox's UI or Tiger's? Konqueror or Safari? Kopete or iChat? In all these comparisons, the latter is better than the former. What this translates into is an awesome and intutive end user experience that only a Mac can deliver. So, what is the harm in copying those features.
gxsaurav will undoubtedly pop in now and offer that there is no harm in copying Mac's features in Vista. Yes, there is not but at least give your customers something better than the original (or at least as good as it), damn it!


----------



## eddie (Oct 18, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> Maybe they did copy from the places you mentioned. However, you are exaggerating it by saying that they copied the code straight off. As if you were in their labs when they were copying and pasting it or you have compared the source codes!
> *Please stop fooling around...*


Again you come in and start talking crap. Go and get your facts right before you come in debating. If you don't know then don't just give lame a$$ arguments and make fun of other people by saying that they are fooling around.
It is a well known fact that Apple has been copying around GPL and other open source code. Since they copy stuff so blatantly they have to release their core source which has been diffed a million times by OSS engineers to see how much they copy...result...full fledged copying. Add to that the fact that they return cypher to OSS community and you have probably one of the most fugly leeching companies that OSS has to ever deal with.


> And anyway, which is better: *BSD's original kernel or Mac's refined one?* Xerox's UI or Tiger's? Konqueror or Safari? Kopete or iChat? In all these comparisons, the latter is better than the former. What this translates into is an awesome and intutive end user experience that only a Mac can deliver. So, what is the harm in copying those features.


Oh so copying is not bad cos it is Mac? Ok...fair enough...OSS community doesn't mind that. Just tell Mac fanboys to accept in open that 70% of what they worship has been copied stuff and we will stay in silence. At least give the credit where it is due...just saying that copying is not bad doesn't work. Also, Mac users are probably the biggest whiners when it comes to saying that Windows copied something. This is such hypocrisy I tell you...
Oh...and btw...BSD's kernel is a million times better. You show me one server running Mac OS and I will show you a million for each of them.


> gxsaurav will undoubtedly pop in now and offer that there is no harm in copying Mac's features in Vista. Yes, there is not but at least give your customers something better than the original (or at least as good as it), damn it!


Why? A few posts ago you said that it is upto Apple to manage their OS the way they want...then why shouldn't Microsoft be given that breathing space? If people find Windows so bad and Apple is offering them Nirvana then why don't they just move to Macintosh? What is stopping them? Some implanted chip in their brains that has been installed by Microsoft?


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 18, 2006)

u r awsome aryayush....simply amazing, i used to think andy is the biggest macboy here, but atleast he knows what he is talking about

it's ok, is apple copies the code, functions, & programs, it's not bad cos it's Apple, but if Vista does the same (according to u) then it's a sin from MS

There is no point of arguing with u after this post, this just shows how blind u r, brainwashed fanboy i would say


----------



## mediator (Oct 19, 2006)

Hmmmm,, so it seems everyone copies from each other  just like students in exams! Neways @aryayush, I will agree to @eddie that BSD's are known for their stability and come close to UNIX when talked about stability and security. They are even better than Linux.

No offence, but I urge both the parties @aryayush and @gxsaurav, fight by posting facts and please don't talk on something u dont know about as it only adds to ones misery and then others start making fun of him.


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## aryayush (Oct 19, 2006)

eddie said:
			
		

> aryayush said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, my post is just above yours and I have not even edited it once after posting it. When did I ever type 'Please stop fooling around...'!!! That is a very lowly thing to do on your part, man! Cut the crap!



			
				eddie said:
			
		

> Again you come in and start talking crap.


Again? As if you have proven me wrong on any of my previous observations! You said they copied features from the open source community and I accepted that because I am not well informed about the subject. And it is not copying anyway because it is stated in the GPL in quite clear terms that anyone may take the source code and use it in their own software without any legal bindations. The company may even sell that software commercially. So, even if Apple DID use open source code in their software (and I only have your very unconvincing word for that), they did nothing wrong anyway.



			
				eddie said:
			
		

> Go and get your facts right before you come in debating. If you don't know then don't just give lame a$$ arguments and make fun of other people by saying that they are fooling around.


Well, it is obvious that everyone cannot be knowledgeable on every subject. My history has always been weak, whether it be ancient, indian or world history, so it should come as no surprise that I know little to nothing about the history of technology. AND I DID NOT MAKE FUN OF YOU OR SAY THAT YOU WERE FOOLING AROUND!!!! In fact, I have been very civil in all my posts, it is gxsaurav who is resorting to uncalled for comments after being unsuccessful in most of his posts.



			
				eddie said:
			
		

> Oh so copying is not bad cos it is Mac? Ok...fair enough...OSS community doesn't mind that. Just tell Mac fanboys to accept in open that 70% of what they worship has been copied stuff and we will stay in silence. At least give the credit where it is due...just saying that copying is not bad doesn't work. Also, Mac users are probably the biggest whiners when it comes to saying that Windows copied something. This is such hypocrisy I tell you...


There exists a fundamental difference in the approach of the two companies: Apple used the open source code that is free for anyone to use as they please (and that too, only you are saying that) - Micrsoft, on the other hand, copied most features directly from Apple's closed source. There is a difference between copying and using what is available and free to use.
And why are you making such a huge issue out of this anyway, we were talking about the end-user experience in Windows as compared to a Macintosh and you haven't yet said anything in favour of the former.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> u r awsome aryayush....simply amazing, i used to think andy is the biggest macboy here, but atleast he knows what he is talking about
> 
> it's ok, is apple copies the code, functions, & programs, it's not bad cos it's Apple, but if Vista does the same (according to u) then it's a sin from MS
> 
> There is no point of arguing with u after this post, this just shows how blind u r, brainwashed fanboy i would say


A classic example of jumping onto the bandwagon! Why don't you just stick with your own invalid points man? Just because eddie claims he knows something that I don't and therefore, he has a better point than me one one single matter, does not mean everything I have said is wrong and/or misinformed. It is not necessary that I will be right every time but I have been right most of the times and when I did not know something, I accepted that unlike you. I have proven you wrong several times during the course of this topic. Why are you showing your tail now? Well, of course I know why, you have run out of points and are desperately clinging onto any support available. Sheesh!


----------



## eddie (Oct 19, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> Hey, my post is just above yours and I have not even edited it once after posting it. When did I ever type 'Please stop fooling around...'!!! *That is a very lowly thing to do on your part, man! Cut the crap!*


You have lost it or what man? Why would I do something like this? The only one who needs to cut the crap is you. It is clear that you edited the post with in 1 minute of posting. If you do so..vBulletin does not show the edit timings. What would I gain by writing things like those? 


> Again? As if you have proven me wrong on any of my previous observations!


Yes...
I have already proven you wrong on the "Resourceful Engineering" bit. You forgot so early. Temporary amnesia?


> You said they copied features from the open source community and I accepted that because I am not well informed about the subject. And it is not copying anyway because it is stated in the GPL in quite clear terms that anyone may take the source code and use it in their own software without any legal bindations. The company may even sell that software commercially. So, even if Apple DID use open source code in their software *(and I only have your very unconvincing word for that)*, they did nothing wrong anyway.


Dude stop the madness. Ever heard about a site named Google? Why don't you search a little and read a little bit of history? Oh and btw...Google is not paid by Microsoft to index anti-Apple stuff 
Also, I have not said that copying is wrong...no copying is not wrong at all but at least don't be pathetic whiners when someone else does the same. When you are releasing software it is obvious that other companies will look at the features and then introduce them in their product. Why whine about it? Also copying is one thing and taking full fledged code is another thing. At least Microsoft is not doing that. At least they are writing their own code. The time when Microsoft is writing their own code...Apple is copying code from OSS community...adding some finished UI and then saying that they are doing some rocket science. THAT IS WRONG!!!


> There exists a fundamental difference in the approach of the two companies: Apple used the open source code that is free for anyone to use as they please (and that too, only you are saying that) - Micrsoft, on the other hand, copied most features directly from Apple's closed source.


Google is your friend my dear. Don't take my word for it...go and read...read...read
Also, are you suggesting that Microsoft sent some thieves in Apple Laboratories to steal their code? Microsoft wrote their own code man...not like what Apple is doing...taking whole blocks of code. If you copy yourself then you don't whine about someone else doing the same. It is known as childish behavior. Amusing thing is that Apple never says anything like this (reason is obvious)...it is just their army of ill-informed fanboys that is singing the song of copying.


> There is a difference between copying and using what is available and free to use.


Copying is copying...and copying without telling the source is even worse. That is leeching...


> And why are you making such a huge issue out of this anyway, we were talking about the end-user experience in Windows as compared to a Macintosh and you haven't yet said anything in favour of the former.


I am making a huge issue out of this because you whined in a huge article about Microsoft copying stuff from Apple. That is like "The Pot calling the Kettle black". I don't care about Microsoft providing any kind of end-user experience. I am an OSS guy and wouldn't give a damn about what happens in Microsoft world. I just hate them as much as I hate Apple but I hate Apple a little more cos they are pathetic leechers and their fanboys are whiners.

From the way you are posting it is obvious that you are no better then gxsaurav. You know only one side of story i.e. Apple's and similar is the case with gxsaurav...he knows only Microsoft's side.


----------



## aryayush (Oct 19, 2006)

eddie said:
			
		

> You have lost it or what man? Why would I do something like this? The only one who needs to cut the crap is you. It is clear that you edited the post with in 1 minute of posting. If you do so..vBulletin does not show the edit timings. What would I gain by writing things like those?


You are a cheat and a liar. I have refrained from insulting someone till now but you are clearly blaming me for something that I have not done. I posted that post at 11:10 PM. If I had edited it within one minute of posting, how'd you manage to quote me at 11:51 PM! You are such a... man, I am out of words here!
You've got some valid points and we respect them but this a very sadistic approach to try and get a lead on someone in an online public forum. Get a life, man!!!
__________


			
				eddie said:
			
		

> Amusing thing is that Apple never says anything like this (reason is obvious)


Bertrand Sarlett spent about ten whole minutes at WWDC 2006 talking about this and digit reported it too (they don't have better news anyway).



			
				eddie said:
			
		

> From the way you are posting it is obvious that you are no better then gxsaurav. You know only one side of story i.e. Apple's


I know about both Apple and Microsoft, it is just open source that I do not know about and that is why I am keeping mum on the Linux centric discussions.


----------



## mail2and (Oct 19, 2006)

eddie said:
			
		

> They took BSD's kernel, they took Xerox's UI, they took KDE's browser (konqueror), they took CUPS printing engine, they took Kopete's code in iChat and you come in here talking about copying? Go to the Apple cave and start reading some history books. Also, don't make fool of yourself thinking that they create everything. Sheesh...



Let us get the facts straight here. Back in the late 70s-early 80s, Xerox placed an offer before Apple. If Apple offered them an opportunity to invest in Apple, they would give Apple the opportunity to visit the Xerox Paulo Alto Research Center *twice* to check out what Xerox was working on.

Steve Jobs and senior Apple engineers visited XPARC and were amazed by the UI concept. IT was a novel concept not thought of by anyone, including Apple.

What Apple did was pick the concept. They took it further, they refined it, and they put this concept in their OS. 

I don't know your credentials, but I doubt your knowledge. Go read company histories and then talk.

The CUPS printing engine is free, and licensed under GPL, right? Who is stopping Microsoft from using the CUPS engine? It is their ego that prevents them from using open source products.

The same goes for Konqueror and Kopete. Do you know how much the Mozilla foundation was p*ssed at Apple for not using the Gecko engine? Tell me, how many people outside of Linux enthusiasts(which I am) knew about the KHTML engine before Apple used it in their browser? It's being ported to Windows, too. I'd be proud if Apple base Finder on Konqueror, the best file manager there is.

It's not called copying, it's called using the product under a particular license, which is completely legal and ethical. Atleast, they don't go claiming that their server product is better than Unix-based server products, with the help of biased and self-funded studies.

Anyways, I understand what your intentions are. The same goes for GX.

The 'Grapes are sour' kind of attitude will not take you anywhere in life. Trust me.

@drvarunmehta- I'm surprised you said that. Apple was in a turmoil because of a string of bad CEOs from 1985-1996. In that period, their market share dropped from 50-60%(I'm not exactly sure) to around 3% of the US market. 

According to data released by Gartner recently, Apple's market share in the US has increased to 6.1% of the market, which is pretty impressive, considering that it was around 4.7-4.8% levels a year ago i.e. their market share is increasing after the Intel switch. To put it in simple words, for GX-like creatures to understand, Apple is selling more computers at an average % that is higher than the average % of the market.


----------



## drvarunmehta (Oct 19, 2006)

> @drvarunmehta- I'm surprised you said that. Apple was in a turmoil because of a string of bad CEOs from 1985-1996. In that period, their market share dropped from 50-60%(I'm not exactly sure) to around 3% of the US market.


I'm just trying to say that Microsoft rips off other's ideas and makes OS's filled with bugs and vulnerabilities. Apple on the other hand makes a stable, secure OS. But at the end of the day who is the market leader?
It's a shame that Apple even with a superior product loses out to Microsoft. Their marketing and PR department need to learn a thing or two from Microsoft.


----------



## mail2and (Oct 19, 2006)

drvarunmehta said:
			
		

> I'm just trying to say that Microsoft rips off other's ideas and makes OS's filled with bugs and vulnerabilities. Apple on the other hand makes a stable, secure OS. But at the end of the day who is the market leader?
> It's a shame that Apple even with a superior product loses out to Microsoft. Their marketing and PR department need to learn a thing or two from Microsoft.


I would agree on that part. Microsoft does market its products better.

Despite being the media's darling, Apple can't quite market the features of their OS and their hardware well enough. 

A lot of it has to do with corporate sales, though. Apple missed the bus in the late 80s when this market segment was still developing. As I said, the top management was to blame for a lot of mess, including Pippin and Newton, which, despite being amazing products, were introduced a little _too_ early. Especially Netwon. Look what Palm did three years later


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## aryayush (Oct 19, 2006)

See, there is a reason behind Apple trailing so far behind Microsoft. Apple caters to a niche market, it's products are for people who love to get their work done with no fuss, people who don't mind spending the extra buck for class and comfort (_gulp!_) and people who don't mind being tied down to their hardware. Microsoft, on the other hand, caters to a mass market. PCs can be purchased by anyone at dirt cheap prices (specially in India) and they have lots of customisation options. Such people do not mind being bothered by viruses, bugs and all the other crap that Windows brings with itself.
Therefore, Apple will never be able to gain a very large share of the market and that is not their target. As Steve Jobs himself said:





> Apple's market share is bigger than BMW's or Mercedes's or Porsche's in the automotive market. What's wrong with being BMW or Mercedes?



However, what they CAN do is narrow the wide gap between Apple's market share and Microsoft's and they are doing so quite steadily now. Three cheers to them!


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## eddie (Oct 19, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> You are a cheat and a liar. I have refrained from insulting someone till now but you are clearly blaming me for something that I have not done. I posted that post at 11:10 PM. If I had edited it within one minute of posting, how'd you manage to quote me at 11:51 PM! You are such a... man, I am out of words here!
> You've got some valid points and we respect them but this a very sadistic approach to try and get a lead on someone in an online public forum. Get a life, man!!!


Man if you can't lick your own ass...it doesn't mean you need to lick someone else's...at least don't lick mine. Go some where else...
It takes sometime for me to type a response...check the previews and then recheck them. Do you think I can just come in and post the response in a few minutes? You are a frigging retard man...I have nothing else to say to you.


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## aryayush (Oct 19, 2006)

It would also have taken me more than one minute to edit a post, erase a sentence and post it back. And you know what, I would never have wanted to edit it in the first place has I actually typed that sentence, because you have now proven it absolutely correct. It seems to me that you are the one who is a retard here. You speak as if you saw my post as soon as I posted it and quickly copied the offensive portion because you knew by some form of divine intervention that I was going to edit it within the minute! LOL! Even the most adventurous gambler won't stake the odds on that!
BTW, you can check out most of my posts, I very rarely make the font bold in my posts - to mark headings or to emphasise on certain important points or to distinguish some particular phrase or word from the rest of the post - and that sentence you later added would not have belonged to any such category.
Either this forum's software is freaking out or you are a freak... and I am willing to bet that it is the latter.


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Oct 19, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> Again? As if you have proven me wrong on any of my previous observations! You said they copied features from the open source community and I accepted that because I am not well informed about the subject. And it is not copying anyway because it is stated in the GPL in quite clear terms that anyone may take the source code and use it in their own software without any legal bindations. The company may even sell that software commercially. So, even if Apple DID use open source code in their software (and I only have your very unconvincing word for that), they did nothing wrong anyway.
> 
> There exists a fundamental difference in the approach of the two companies: Apple used the open source code that is free for anyone to use as they please (and that too, only you are saying that) - Micrsoft, on the other hand, copied most features directly from Apple's closed source. There is a difference between copying and using what is available and free to use.
> And why are you making such a huge issue out of this anyway, we were talking about the end-user experience in Windows as compared to a Macintosh and you haven't yet said anything in favour of the former.



see you're contradicting yourself man . you said that apple copied GPL code , i agree , there's nothin wrong with it . now you said that MS copied apple's CLOSED SOURCE UI , means MS wrote it's own code , not apple's so they're not wrong in any way . they r writing their own code n selling it not copying apple's code .


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## eddie (Oct 19, 2006)

mail2and said:
			
		

> Let us get the facts straight here. Back in the late 70s-early 80s, Xerox placed an offer before Apple. If Apple offered them an opportunity to invest in Apple, they would give Apple the opportunity to visit the Xerox Paulo Alto Research Center *twice* to check out what Xerox was working on.
> 
> Steve Jobs and senior Apple engineers visited XPARC and were amazed by the UI concept. IT was a novel concept not thought of by anyone, including Apple.
> 
> What Apple did was pick the concept. They took it further, they refined it, and they put this concept in their OS.


No...
What they did was to stab Xerox in back after looking at the UI. They bought Xerox's leading developers and offered them more remuneration then what Xerox could do. That is known as "Pathetic Business Methods". If you can still justify their business methods..then I can't argue with you.


> Go read company histories and then talk.


I have read their history countless number of times and that from independent sources. Apple or Microsoft oriented sites are not my source of information.


> The CUPS printing engine is free, and licensed under GPL, right? Who is stopping Microsoft from using the CUPS engine? It is their ego that prevents them from using open source products.


Hear hear...at least one of the fanboy agrees that they are ripping off Open Source software.
Do you even understand how open source software works? It is not the "Ego" of Microsoft...it is the license terms and conditions. If you use GPL software, you need to open your own code of that part as well. How can Microsoft do that? Since you have already shown your lack of knowledge about GPL, BSD and other open source licenses (despite you being a self proclaimed "Linux Enthusiast"), I recommend you reading them before continuing the discussion.


> The same goes for Konqueror and Kopete. Do you know how much the Mozilla foundation was p*ssed at Apple for not using the Gecko engine? Tell me, how many people outside of Linux enthusiasts(which I am) knew about the KHTML engine before Apple used it in their browser? It's being ported to Windows, too. I'd be proud if Apple base Finder on Konqueror, the best file manager there is.


KHTML or any other Open Source product does not need Apple to advertise them and at least I don't see konqueror or KHTML getting any advertisement from Apple. KDE stuff being ported to Windows has nothing to do with Apple...they have no role in it...just like how they never have had. KDE's port to Windows has blood and sweat of KDE devs...not of Apple's. 
Do you know that KDE...one of the main organisation, from which Apple takes so much runs a financial branch known as KDE E.V. They accept donations from users and any organisation. You show me one donation of even 5 dollars from Apple to KDE and I will accept that they are doing ethical stuff. You won't find anything like that...why? Because...they just like to take...take more and then take some more from OSS. 


> It's not called copying_(1)_, it's called using the product under a particular license, which is completely legal_(2)_ and ethical_(3)_. Atleast, they don't go claiming that their server product is better than Unix-based server products, with the help of biased and self-funded studies.


1. No its not called copying...its known as leeching...
2. Since it is legal, that is why Open Source community cannot sue Apple. If they could...Apple would not survived till date. Just don't teach me legalities man...I know about them and that is why never talked about it in my posts.
3. Ethical? You call leeching ethical? Ethical would have been if Apple would have contributed its patches back to Open Source Community. Ethical would have been if they would have tried to help the source from which they tap so much in any which way.
*It is as simple as taking fruits from a tree in a free land. Taking fruits from a tree is not illegal and they are free as well, but the ethical thing to do is to give something back to the tree. You water the tree or give some fertilizers now and then. That is all the tree wants...if you can't do that...the tree will not sue you but you are still a pathetic leech man...*


> Anyways, I understand what your intentions are. The same goes for GX.
> 
> The 'Grapes are sour' kind of attitude will not take you anywhere in life. Trust me.


"What I think is right and what anyone else thinks is wrong" kind of attitude will not take you any where as well. You need to remember that when you point one finger at someone else (like what Apple does to Microsoft)...four fingers point back at you. Everything is not hunky-dory in Apple land and this is what Apple fan boys need to realise. I don't understand how that defines my "attitude"...but if it does...then so be it 
__________


			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> You speak as if you saw my post as soon as I posted it and quickly copied the offensive portion because you knew by some form of divine intervention that I was going to edit it within the minute! LOL! Even the most adventurous gambler won't stake the odds on that!


I just quoted your post stupid. I didn't know you were going to delete it or something. Things like these (calling each other fools) are common in online debates but they should be backed with some solid reasoning 


> BTW, you can check out most of my posts, I very rarely make the font bold in my posts - to mark headings or to emphasise on certain important points or to distinguish some particular phrase or word from the rest of the post - and that sentence you later added would not have belonged to any such category.


The bold part was done by me...to make that part distinguish from the rest so that I could shove the truth in your face. Now you go and search forums...you will find that I commonly make the points I want to emphasise in bold or italics format.


> Either this forum's software is freaking out or you are a freak...


Neither...the truth is that you are a retard and a liar combined in one


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## mail2and (Oct 20, 2006)

eddie said:
			
		

> Hear hear...at least one of the fanboy agrees that they are ripping off Open Source software.



Thank you for the personal attack. I'm not a fan boy. I am a satisfied user, who spent hard-earned money on a computer, which he liked.

This is the biggest problem. People  just don't know how to debate, where to draw the line, where things start getting personal. Besides, it's easy to talk trash sitting behind computer monitors, isn't it? This is the second time you're doing this, in the same thread. Why do you have a problem respecting others' choice?

BTW, the grapes are really _sour_, aren't they?


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## eddie (Oct 20, 2006)

mail2and said:
			
		

> Thank you for the personal attack. I'm not a fan boy. I am a satisfied user, who spent hard-earned money on a computer, which he liked.
> 
> This is the biggest problem. People  just don't know how to debate, where to draw the line, where things start getting personal. Besides, it's easy to talk trash sitting behind computer monitors, isn't it? This is the second time you're doing this, in the same thread. Why do you have a problem respecting others' choice?
> 
> BTW, the grapes are really _sour_, aren't they?


 Oh come on...calling some one a fan boy is a personal attack? Are we going to be so touchy from now on? I would also like to know about this another so-called "Personal Attack" you are referring to.

As far as the grapes comment is concerned...is that the best you've got?


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## mail2and (Oct 20, 2006)

eddie said:
			
		

> Oh come on...calling some one a fan boy is a personal attack? Are we going to be so touchy from now on? Also I would also like to know what is this other so-called "Personal Attack" you are referring to.
> 
> As far as the grapes comment is concerned...is that the best you've got?



Page 1. Check your posts.

It's not about being touchy. How can you classify anyone on the basis of his computer preference? Come on, it's a computer. It's not bigger than your life. That's why I advice ppl like you to get a life  Go out, make friends.


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## eddie (Oct 20, 2006)

mail2and said:
			
		

> Page 1. Check your posts.


Are you are talking about that money comment? 


> It's not about being touchy. How can you classify anyone on the basis of his computer preference? Come on, it's a computer. It's not bigger than your life. That's why I advice ppl like you to get a life  Go out, make friends.


 
Am I getting that from a guy who has just been made a moderator of some online forum? I am being told to get a life by a guy who spends most of his life online? ROFL...man this cracked me up...


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## mediator (Oct 20, 2006)

Oh man! Look at the threads title. It got deviated to "WIndows Vs Mac, stabilty and security comparison" and now to "Who copy from who?" 
Didn't know MAC has such an unmemorisable history. Neways mah observation and enlightenment has been wonderful till now


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## mail2and (Oct 20, 2006)

eddie said:
			
		

> Are you are talking about that money comment?
> 
> Am I getting that from a guy who has just been made a moderator of some online forum? I am being told to get a life by a guy who spends most of his life online? ROFL...man this cracked me up...



Most of my life? How can you say that? You don't even know me. How can you make such a comment? Do I take it as another personal attack? 3 in one thread?

If you'd like to know and pass comments on me, there are things called private messages.


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## eddie (Oct 20, 2006)

mail2and said:
			
		

> Most of my life? How can you say that? You don't even know me. *How can you make such a comment?*


I can do it in just the way you make such comments when you tell other people to get a life...or do you know each and every person whom you tell this thing?
Honestly man..."get a life" is the most common and the last cheap shot every loser takes after a debate. When someone loses all his arguments...he shows himself as this uber cool guy and asks the other person to "get a life". You did it...I am not surprised at all 


> Do I take it as another personal attack? 3 in one thread?
> 
> If you'd like to know and pass comments on me, there are things called *private messages.*


 Oh...so you do know about them? I thought someone was telling someone that they are talking "trash" and they have a pathetic attitude...if he didn't use "Private Messages" then I just took the liberty to do the same. As far as personal attacks are concerned...you can keep counting but I would also like to request something. Read and understand the forum description before you enter in a discussion area 


> The Debate Zone. Sensitive and controversial topics will be discussed here — *only the thick-skinned should enter*



If all these "Private Message" and "Personal Attack" comments are coming out of you because of your newly acquired "moderator" status, and you are planning to somehow take out your frustration by giving me some warning points then I will understand it


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## mail2and (Oct 20, 2006)

eddie said:
			
		

> I can do it in just the way you make such comments when you tell other people to get a life...or do you know each and every person whom you tell this thing?
> 
> If all these "Private Message" and "Personal Attack" comments are coming out of you because of your newly acquired "moderator" status, and you are planning to somehow take out your frustration by giving me some warning points then I will understand it



Newly acquired? Another ignorant statement. Go back an year, and check for youself 

As far as mis-using my mod powers is concerned, it is not going to happen. It's  not something big for me, as is the case for some people. I've achieved a bit _more_ than being a mod of a forum. So, I can assure you, it' wont happen.

I have read the rules and the description of the forum. But, in no debate, or argument, are personal attacks allowed. You can not label any one. You're no one to judge how rich a person is, how does he look, or whether he is a fanboy. You may be the CEO of Tata Sons, or you may be just a normal person, but the fact remains: You're not entitled to judge anyone.

Look at the Hindi vs English thread in the same forum. People stayed on topic, the discussion was heated but meaningful, and it wasn't being hijacked as is the case here with some ppl.

As some one once said, "You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts".

As i said I don't know your credentials, but you do not know how businesses are run, or how companies shortchange others. It happens with every firm; be it Apple, Microsoft, Enron or even Sun. Look at the various stock option scandals.

As for the topic at hand, I'd day that a branded computer can't compete with an assembled computer. I agree that Apple do charge a 4-5k premium, but you get an OS, an office suite, an un-matched set of apps(iLife- Find me one free alternative to Garageband or iMovie). Sourabh can confirm that Windows Movie Maker doesn't stand a chance here. He has personally seen iMovie/iDvd and he told me that.

I'm not rich. Far from it. I have the same phone since the past three years as I can't afford to buy a new one. But, I chose this computer, which was 4k more expensive than a similar configuration PC, because that PC wouldn't have given me OS X or any other apps that I use regularly.

I think it comes to respecting others' choices. You don't like a computer? Fine. Move on. It'll do no good whining and calling any company names.

Anyways, if you want to prove that you know more, you have a broader outlook, then you don't need to do it with me. I accept that I don't have a technical background. What I do have, is a good business degree, and what I'll have in future, is a even better business degree.

IF you think I have no points as far as the MS v/s Apple debate goes, well please check other threads in this very forum. You'd find a lot of points that I didn't even mention, because I thought this topic was about how expensive/cheap Apple computers are, and not which OS is better.

As far as MS goes, please do check the law suits in and around 1985. Trust me, you'll get to know a lot.


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## aryayush (Oct 20, 2006)

This topic has obviously changed to which OS is better but people are not even discussing that here.
As I already mentioned, *IF* what eddie is telling about history is indeed true, then Apple did indeed do some things the wrong way, but we are not here to discuss what is ethically correct and what's not, we are discussing which OS is better, more stable and offers better productivity and ease of use and the Macintosh can whip Windows red and blue any day of the week. There are very few departments in which Windows is better than a Mac and the Mac is better than Windows in every other field. It's almost perfect!
So, it would be lovely if you could all just discount all the off-topic crap from this discussion and talk about the topic at hand: Apple (Macintosh) vs. Microsoft (Windows).


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## eddie (Oct 20, 2006)

mail2and said:
			
		

> Newly acquired? Another ignorant statement. Go back an year, and check for youself


ermm..so they fired you (or you resigned?) and then you some how came back? 
*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39127
I was not here an year ago so it is obvious that your status is newly acquired for me.


> I have read the rules and the description of the forum. But, in no debate, or argument, are personal attacks allowed. You can not label any one. You're no one to judge how rich a person is, how does he look, or whether he is a fanboy. You may be the CEO of Tata Sons, or you may be just a normal person, but the fact remains: You're not entitled to judge anyone.


...and you are entitled to do that? You are entitled to judge people and say that other people don't have a life, that they post trash and that they have pathetic attitude? Seriously man...don't do to others what you don't want to be done to you.


> As for the topic at hand, I'd day that a branded computer can't compete with an assembled computer. I agree that Apple do charge a 4-5k premium, but you get an OS, an office suite, an un-matched set of apps(iLife- Find me one free alternative to Garageband or iMovie). Sourabh can confirm that Windows Movie Maker doesn't stand a chance here. He has personally seen iMovie/iDvd and he told me that.


The thread starter talked about iMac in his article and wanted to discuss that in here...just when you came in and started talking about Mac Mini. The premium of 4-5K could be there on Mac Mini...and not on iMac. The price difference in that system is approximately 20K.


> I think it comes to respecting others' choices. You don't like a computer? Fine. Move on. It'll do no good whining and calling any company names.


 I did not call any company names. I just said that Apple is leeching from Open Source community thus they have no right to call other companies as "copycats". Also, the original poster created a huge article just to call names...and now I get blamed? Jeez...


> What I do have, is a good business degree, and what I'll have in future, is a even better business degree.


Good for you...and this matters to us how?


> IF you think I have no points as far as the MS v/s Apple debate goes, well please check other threads in this very forum. You'd find a lot of points that I didn't even mention, because I *thought* this topic was about how expensive/cheap Apple computers are, and not which OS is better.


Well you thought so...but the original poster did not. He himself deviated the thread from the track and wanted to discuss his new article about "copying". Also, you don't seem to be as saintly as you are projecting your self...you yourself were talking about "copying" before I came in and now you are talking about being on topic?
*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showpost.php?p=323408&postcount=21
*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showpost.php?p=323474&postcount=25
???
__________


			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> This topic has obviously changed to which OS is better but people are not even discussing that here.
> As I already mentioned, *IF* what eddie is telling about history is indeed true, then Apple did indeed do some things the wrong way, but we are not here to discuss what is ethically correct and what's not, we are discussing which OS is better, more stable and offers better productivity and ease of use and the Macintosh can whip Windows red and blue any day of the week. There are very few departments in which Windows is better than a Mac and the Mac is better than Windows in every other field. It's almost perfect!
> So, it would be lovely if you could all just discount all the off-topic crap from this discussion and talk about the topic at hand: Apple (Macintosh) vs. Microsoft (Windows).


 LOL!!!
You so wish you hadn't written that "copying" article...don't you? 
As far as the *IF* is concerned...you still didn't google


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## mail2and (Oct 20, 2006)

eddie said:
			
		

> ...and you are entitled to do that? You are entitled to judge people and say that other people don't have a life, that they post trash and that they have pathetic attitude? Seriously man...don't do to others what you don't want to be done to you.



You did it twice. I replied when I thought you crossed the line a bit too much. It is in record, mate. Your lies won't work here, sorry.



> The thread starter talked about iMac in his article and wanted to discuss that in here...just when you came in and started talking about Mac Mini.



He talked about Apple computers in general. I'm sorry if your knowledge about Macs is limited. I can't help it, though.



> The premium of 4-5K could be there on Mac Mini...and not on iMac. The price difference in that system is approximately 20K.


You're talking about a Conroe desktop. The iMac uses Merom chips. It is, essentially, a laptop inside a computer case. BTW, have you ever used a Mac or OS X? What do you know about the iMac, Mac Mini etc?



> I did not call any company names. I just said that Apple is leeching from Open Source community thus they have no right to call other companies as "copycats". Also, the original poster created a huge article just to call names...and now I get blamed? Jeez...


Jeez yeah... I'm talking about you. Yes, you're calling names. Again, it is in record. Your lies won't work, again.



> Good for you...and this matters to us how?



I stated it to counter your sense of 'superiority'. I know where you're coming from.


> Well you thought so.


I still feel you're trolling this thread as you've got nothing more to contribute to this thread. Go check out macs first and then post.

If you've got nothing more to contribute, and are going to state the same points again and again, you'd be considered a troll.


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## eddie (Oct 20, 2006)

mail2and said:
			
		

> You did it twice. I replied when I thought you crossed the line a bit too much. It is in record, mate. Your lies won't work here, sorry.


I crossed the line? Where? My lies? 


> He talked about Apple computers in general. I'm sorry if your knowledge about Macs is limited. *I can't help it, though.*


Try and just help yourself...cos you seem to failing to that for the moment.


> You're talking about a Conroe desktop. The iMac uses Merom chips. It is, essentially, a laptop inside a computer case. BTW, have you ever used a Mac or OS X? What do you know about the iMac, Mac Mini etc?


I am a security incharge at an MNC and we have mixed bag of almost every kind of computers. We have laptops, desktops which include systems from Apple as well. I have used enough of them...


> Jeez yeah... I'm talking about you. Yes, you're calling names. Again, it is in record. Your lies won't work, again.


You seriously need to read my posts or if you actually read them...then you simply don't get the essence. I just called them leechers...that is calling them names? WOW!!!


> I stated it to counter your sense of 'superiority'. *I know where you're coming from.*


I have already seen from your posts how much you "know". Pretending won't help 


> I still feel you're trolling this thread as you've got nothing more to contribute to this thread. Go check out macs first and then post.
> 
> If you've got nothing more to contribute, and are going to state the same points again and again, you'd be considered a troll.


 As far as I can see, my posts have been more constructive then yours and you are the one who is trolling. If it hurts your ego that some one ripped you apart in a debate...not my fault


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## drvarunmehta (Oct 20, 2006)

From Wikipedia


> Fanboy or fanboi is a term used to describe an individual (usually male, though the feminine version fangirl may be used for females) who is utterly devoted to a single fannish subject, or to a single point of view within that subject, often to the point where it is considered an obsession.
> 
> "Fanboys" remain loyal to their particular obsession, disregarding any factors that differ from their point of view. They are also typically hateful to the opposing brand or competition of their obession regardless of its merits or achievements.


Sounds familiar?

Why hasn't the topic been changed to GX and Eddie v/s Aryayush and Andy? Coz that's what the thread seems to be about.


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## mail2and (Oct 20, 2006)

eddie said:
			
		

> > I am a security incharge at an MNC
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## eddie (Oct 20, 2006)

mail2and said:
			
		

> Who cares?


The one who wanted us to care about his BBA degree should 


> Thanks for the needless judgement


New trick...learned from you...did it work? 


> Aww.. self proclaimed winner.. tsk tsk


 Can't help it...losers in here are so bad that they will not acknowledge their defeat


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## mail2and (Oct 20, 2006)

eddie said:
			
		

> I crossed the line? Where? My lies?


Check your posts on the first page.




> You seriously need to read my posts or if you actually read them...then you simply don't get the essence. I just called them leechers...that is calling them names? WOW!!!


I was talking about calling ppl rich, fanboy etc. Sorry for not making that clear 



> As far as I can see, my posts have been more constructive then yours and you are the one who is trolling.



If you think so, so be it.
__________


			
				eddie said:
			
		

> Can't help it...losers in here are so bad that they will not acknowledge their defeat



Aww talking about yourself, eh?

For others: This is what happens when kids don't drink Complan when they're small.


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## GNUrag (Oct 20, 2006)

No personal insults please.
If you people want to continue healthy discussion then let any of the mod know.
__________
unlocking this thread on request from aryayush.

mail2and, eddie: please do not indulge in name calling or picture showing.


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## aryayush (Oct 21, 2006)

Thanks, GNUrag! 

So, guys, let's resume the cold war now and please keep this topic limited to *Apple (Macintosh) vs. Microsoft (Windows)* - no off-topic posts and personal remarks, please!

Where is gxsaurav?


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## gxsaurav (Oct 21, 2006)

celebrating diwali...& taking pics. Away for a few days, continue without me, as i said what i wanted to say....it was good when this thread was closed


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## digitadmin (Nov 3, 2006)

This fight sucks!

mail2and you ARE an Apple fanboy, and that's ok it's not an insult. I am an Opera fanboy... err... man.. whatever.

Eddie, you obviously know only as much about Macs as I do, which isn't much. Though I've used a MacBook Pro recently, and understood why people rave about Apple's OS. 

Also, when buying a PC, factor in the cost of Windows XP, and the equivalent tools that Apple provides as iLife, and you will see that it goes way above Rs 23K. Now add to that the support you get... say if you bought a dell or an HP Compaq instead of an assembled PC and you will see that Apple's are actually cheaper than PCs, and still PCs fall short in terms of looks and usability. Give a complete computer novice a MAC and a PC, and he'll probably prefer the Mac coz it's prettier and more intuitive.

Everyone who says that they prefer assembled computers which are 20K cheaper, is considering pirated software for Windows, and pirated Windows XP itself. 

That said, I'm quite happy with my XP rig, with Photoshop, Open Office and Opera. It's just a matter of choices, and I'm surprised that some people still don't get that!

If you want a Mac, get one, if you want a PC, get one.


I am disappointed in the way Eddie behaved: you seem very intelligent, yet stoop to trying your best to irritate people to win arguments, instead of just stating facts. 

mail2and: You shouldn't have let eddie get to you, as a mod you have to take this cr@p in your stride, ignore the personal comments completely, and refrain from making any of your own. I know that you are aware of the much higher standards that are expected of you as a moderator. Though I can understand why you lost your temper. People like Eddie are usually quite adept at pissing others off. They thrive on that sort of thing.

I hope this argument will continue without calling each other names, it just sidelines the whole issue at hand, and fills up posts with $#@%^@$$@!

digitadmin


----------



## Raaabo (Nov 3, 2006)

lol welcome back digitadmin, and well said.

we've missed your authority around here.


----------



## aryayush (Nov 3, 2006)

digitadmin said:
			
		

> Eddie, you obviously know only as much about Macs as I do, which isn't much. Though I've used a MacBook Pro recently, and understood why people rave about Apple's OS.
> 
> Also, when buying a PC, factor in the cost of Windows XP, and the equivalent tools that Apple provides as iLife, and you will see that it goes way above Rs 23K. Now add to that the support you get... say if you bought a dell or an HP Compaq instead of an assembled PC and you will see that Apple's are actually cheaper than PCs, and still PCs fall short in terms of looks and usability. Give a complete computer novice a MAC and a PC, and he'll probably prefer the Mac coz it's prettier and more intuitive.
> 
> Everyone who says that they prefer assembled computers which are 20K cheaper, is considering pirated software for Windows, and pirated Windows XP itself.


Exactly! You have to count the cost of software too, not just the hardware. But since Windows is basically free for most Indians, Macs tend to look expensive by comparison. But they still cost only Rs. 55,000, guys. That is NOT expensive by any standards. I know you can buy a PC for less than ten thousand bucks, at least in India, but don't even think about comparing it with an Apple iMac.


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## mail2and (Nov 3, 2006)

digitadmin said:
			
		

> This fight sucks!
> 
> mail2and you ARE an Apple fanboy, and that's ok it's not an insult. I am an Opera fanboy... err... man.. whatever.
> 
> ...



Aye aye, sir!

But, what I get put off by, is the same rhetoric in each thread. You'd find many threads in this forum, in which I have given explanation to each point.

However, gxsaurav posts the same points again, when another such thread comes up. It is an obvious attempt by him to deviate the discussion in each thread remotly related to Apple, Macintosh or Linux. You can personally check his posts.

Hence, I'd request you to not allow any Mac v/s Windows threads on the forum. They serve no purpose.


----------



## aryayush (Nov 3, 2006)

What! A technology forum without a Mac vs. Windows fight? What would be the fun of that!


----------



## Raaabo (Nov 4, 2006)

Learn to just ignore it andy. Windows vs Apple, Windows vs Open Source, Paid vs Pirated... all this is the bread and butter of tech, you cannot stop people from talking about it. Besides, think of the many people who have just read this thread, and not posted. At least they will be unbiased and come to their own conclusions! It's all knowledge, and everyone is entitled to their opinions, thus the fight club! This place is for arguments that really have no right or wrong, just varying interpretations...

Raaabo


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## aryayush (Nov 5, 2006)

> What's fun about Macs is they often do exactly as you think they should to accomplish a task. That can be a shock for people who are used to jumping through flaming hoops in Windows.
> 
> You are going to love the machine. Seriously. And then you're going to annoy all of your family and friends because you'll become an evangelist and will let everyone know what they're missing. Your relationships will suffer. Your productivity will skyrocket. You will develop an unhealthy love for an inanimate object. It's inevitable.


Isn't this just so true? This is what an experienced Mac user had to say to another who is a newbie and I think he has nailed it. People, like me, who buy a Mac eventually fall absolutely in love with it and become - to use the guy's word - 'evangelists'. We then try to convert the whole PC crowd to the Mac platform and try to show them what they are missing. It may be wrong to do so, but it is something that inevitably does happen. In fact, the Mac is not the only platform that invokes such loyalty. Linux, and open source in general, is another prime example.


----------



## aryayush (Nov 9, 2006)

> *Guilty Pleasure - Apple Macintosh*
> 
> Over the years, I’ve been a Linux user and a Windows user. In Linux, I’ve used everything from easy to use Suse to Slackware where I manually setup XFree86 to support a three-monitor system. For the last few years, I’ve stuck to trusted old Windows.
> 
> ...


Source
Just another post to prove that "Once you go Mac you never go back!" B-)


----------



## mediator (Nov 9, 2006)

Don't get so excited by such posts man. U'll find such posts for every popular OS with the end statements by the poster => "Just another post to prove that "Once you go to this OS you never go back!""! 
Its more important of what u think!


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## aryayush (Nov 11, 2006)

I, for one, haven't heard any Windows user say that. And it is a fact that a Windows user who switches to the Macintosh NEVER goes back. And now that you can run Windows on Mac on Parallels, or use Darwin to run Windows applications directly on OS X, only mental people would go back to Windows after using a Mac.
And there are many people who had never used Windows before Apple introduced Boot Camp. When they installed and used Windows, they found it to be crap and uninstalled it.


----------



## aryayush (Nov 25, 2006)

mail2and in the topic 'Ipod vs. Zune... Which One Do You Prefer??' said:
			
		

> gxsaurav said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If gxsaurav thinks that Windows XP Pro and Home are different operating systems, adding Media Center capabilities and a shiny theme to an OS makes it a radically different to its predecessor and counts the tablet PC, mobile and server editions too to justify his claim that Microsoft has been releasing 'many completely different operating systems', we all know - himself included - how lame and desperate his statement sounds. The five completely new versions of Mac OS X are just 'different updates to same product' and Windows XP home, pro, MCE and MCE 2005 are different products - yeah, we can see your point! The reason Apple does not have a seperate OS with media center capabilities is that they do not differenciate between their consumers. You can install Front Row, free of cost, on any version of Mac OS X and have media center capabilities. Plus, if you have a previous version of Mac OS and you upgrade to a newer one, you just need to pay half the price. What will you do if you want a media center? Go and buy a new PC. What will you do when Vista is released? Go and buy it and shell out Rs. 21,000 for it (not counting the fact that you are a beta tester, obviously). And you still have the nerve to justify it...


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## tarey_g (Nov 25, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> *only mental people would go back to Windows after using a Mac.*


 Please get done with this attitude .People who dont use/like mac are not idiots. Everyone has personal choice and taste some like mac some like other choices.

I think digitadmin and raaabo just wasted their time posting here in this thread.
.
.
I remember this quote from diggnation podcast ,and it seems so true only because of mac users like you.


			
				alex to kevin said:
			
		

> I am a mac user, but thank god i dont act like one.


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## gxsaurav (Nov 25, 2006)

tarey_g said:
			
		

> Originally Posted by *alex to kevin*
> _I am a Mac user, but thank god I don’t act like one._
> 
> This sums the situation tarey, to the point....Mac users really got owned...lolzzz
> ...


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## tarey_g (Nov 26, 2006)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> This sums the situation tarey, to the point....Mac users really got owned...lolzzz



ya fits to many, specially the ones i know but i am not pointing towards every mac user.


----------



## aryayush (Nov 26, 2006)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> tarey_g said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL! That's a good example of '_doobte ko tinke ka sahaara_'. You just _luurve_ Linux now, don't you! And Windows and Linux users have now collectively become 'we'!  You aren't so friendly to the platform in Windows vs. Linux discussions.

To answer your question, Mac and Linux users always try to show you why the product they use is better because they (we) are a minority compared to Windows. And don't tell me you don't try to justify Windows' features yourself. This whole thread is full of so many inconsistent things you have posted about Windows. You post something, get owned, then take it back. It's routine.

And can you show me one post where I have mentioned Mac's superiority and failed to prove it. I can post screenshots of whatever feature I mention. Yes, the Mac is more user-friendly, more secure, has a much better user-interface and is a pleasure to use. You can debate it till kingdom come but the truth won't change.

Whenever you get owned, like in my previous post, you stray off-topic and start cringing about how fanboyish Mac users are. Yes, I am a fanboy and I see no problem with being a fan of a vastly better product and I also do not see any problem in debating about two technological competitors on a technology forum. If you do not want to debate, you are welcome not to. But if you want to debate (and you are welcome to do so), don't start a flame war when you get owned! For your own sake.


tarey_g, I have yet to meet a person who has switched from the PC to Mac (and therefore, has the money to invest in it) and has then switched back to the PC.
Just think about it, why would you? You can install Windows using Boot Camp on a Mac (and Mac Pro was recently declared as the best Windows workstation available), run it simultaneously using Parallels and other such virtualisation sotware and even run Windows applications on Mac using software such as CrossOver and Darwin. Now, suppose you are buying a laptop. Give me one reason why you would not want to buy a MacBook or MacBook Pro.
Even if you can come up with a reason now, you will forget all your inhibitions once you have actually used a Macintosh. The joy of discovering that you need not install anti-virus and anti-spyware and keep them updated, restart after most software and update installations, keep end-tasking non-responding applications, experience OS crashes is just an out-of-the-world experience. Furthermore, using two fingers to scroll and right-click, screen corners for switching between open windows and showing the desktop, complete support for drag-and-drop, working with busy files, installing and uninstalling applications using drag-and-drop (copy-paste), slick and functional animations, etc. are enough to seal the deal in favour of the Macintosh.
Once you give it a try, you will realise that my statement might not be too off the mark after all!


----------



## aryayush (Nov 28, 2006)

BTW, gxsaurav, how 'many completely different operating systems' is Microsoft going to launch in January 2007? Here's a list:

Microsoft Windows® Vista Starter
Microsoft Windows® Vista Home Basic
Microsoft Windows® Vista Home Basic N
Microsoft Windows® Vista Home Premium
Microsoft Windows® Vista Business
Microsoft Windows® Vista Business N
Microsoft Windows® Vista Enterprise
Microsoft Windows® Vista Ultimate

WOW! That's eight 'completely different operating systems'! You have to give some credit to them - they are fast. They manage to launch eight operating systems in just five years. Hats off to Microsoft! :roll:

Now, don't tell me I forgot the previews, betas and release candidates!


----------



## mail2and (Nov 28, 2006)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> tarey_g said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## krazyfrog (Nov 28, 2006)

Windows and Linux are good, but i feel Mac is special. Given the choice, i'd definitely would love to go Mac. I think every computer owner should atleast once treat themselves to a Mac. Then after that whether they go back or not is their decision, but they probably won't, IMO.


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## aryayush (Nov 28, 2006)

Please refrain from making personal comments! It will just lead to the topic being closed.
Flame the posters' opinions (if you feel the need to do so), not the posters themselves.
__________


			
				krazyfrog said:
			
		

> Windows and Linux are good, but i feel Mac is special. Given the choice, i'd definitely would love to go Mac. I think every computer owner should atleast once treat themselves to a Mac. Then after that whether they go back or not is their decision, but they probably won't, IMO.


Spot on; bang on target!


----------



## tarey_g (Nov 28, 2006)

mail2and said:
			
		

> You don't have the stones to take names? Figures.
> 
> But, then, what more can you expect from 5 year olds who get excited when they kill a monster in <enter the name of the latest game>.



Good ol andy, always there with his provoking and insulting language.



			
				digitadmin said:
			
		

> mail2and: ignore the personal comments completely, *and refrain from making any of your own.*



Digitadmin did really waste his/her time here.


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## aryayush (Nov 29, 2006)

Yeah, this is a certain drawback he suffers from. I think his posts are mostly very informative and friendly, but if he has a bit of a grudge against someone, he can post some really scathing remarks. And because he is now a moderator, these comments get more attention than they should.
__________
So, I suppose this topic has reached an end now. Actually, this a non-topic, anyway. There is simply NO REASON why one would prefer Windows over Mac OS X except inertia. You have been using it since forever and you can't be bothered to change (even for the better).


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## gxsaurav (Nov 30, 2006)

> There is simply NO REASON why one would prefer Windows over Mac OS X except inertia.



Didn't the whole thread taught u anything, u better go back & read again.

Crash department 

Apple is good just cos the hardware is tied to the OS; Windows is good as long as u have proper WHQL drivers. But works with so many hardware configs u can think of, just use any hardware, any gfx card, any motherboard, any RAM

Hardware configs department

Apple hardware doesn't give u many options, in case of PC & windows there are limitless hardware configs

Software development

Windows is a great tool for Software development; so many IDEs are available for it. I don't know about any Mac based IDE other then JAVA, Carbon & Cocoa, plz tell me

PCs & Windows have games; they can connect to many 3rd party devices easily out of the box such as XBOX, PS3, TiVo, AIWA & Sony Stereo system with USB, not the same case with Mac....

If u have hardware which works with Mac & if u have software that requires Mac (read: workstations apps etc) then go for Mac

If u want a desktop for the flaunt value, & not productivity all the time, then go for Mac. Now don't say again, that Mac uses high quality Gold components

If u wants to be a Mac fan boy & act like one, then go for it, for everything else, u have PC, do whatever u want on it, and it will serve u well. Use some common sense, & u won't need an Antivirus too, just a firewall, which is available for free from many companies, such as outpost & Zone alarm free

Mac are based on UNIX architecture because of which Linux apps can run on it just by compiling in X11, if that’s your requirement go for it.

U can pay more & get a Mac (hardware) then u can install any OS on it, in 25% less price u can get a PC which is as powerful as the Mac is, in hardware config

U won't have to worry about antivirus & viruses on Mac. A Plus point

For office work, Windows based PCs are best, even Linux with open office is awesome, due to its low system requirement & it runs on the same PC hardware along with Windows 2000 SP4/XP SP2

Arya, better not compare Windows XP with Tiger, there is a difference of 4 years between them. Why don't u compare XP SP2 with tiger or XP with Puma

Even I have said that I hate MS for their high prices, but there are always other legal methods to get Windows, education or student license. MS is releasing so many editions of Vista in Jan, to suite various market needs. 80% people will go for Vista ultimate, just for the name sake, when Vista home premium is enough for them. They are releasing Vista Business for as usual business, Ultimate for Workstation use, Home premium & home basic for homes running old hardware, where computer is mostly used as a tool for Video/Audio, internet etc

Mac is not the most secure & compatible anymore, just yesterday apple released a mega patch, 22 fixes in it. All software are buggy, & insecure. It's just that which fixes is easily, Mac hardly have to worry as no one cares to install malware on a Mac affecting 2% internet users out there to gain some ad revenue

There are many features not in Windows by default, for them u have many 3rd party addons & apps, Windows is a wide platform for 3rd party developers to stay on, this is what made Windows what it is today. On Mac most of the apps are developed by Apple itself, not many 3rd party apps although there are. & they still lack with Windows in feature department (Yahoo messeneger is an example)

With your last post, we are again back to post 1 of this thread, despite of all the reasons, u r biased towards a Mac, u cannot confess that your decision is wrong (if it is) cos u own it, well, u have paid money for it, now onbiously u will defend it, atleast Windows users are not afraid to blame Windows in case of problem, but in your case u can not blame Apple at all
__________
 arya must be typing a long post here right now


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## aryayush (Nov 30, 2006)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Apple is good just cos the hardware is tied to the OS


Yes, I know that. So what! It is good, right? And that is all that matters.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Apple hardware doesn't give u many options, in case of PC & windows there are limitless hardware configs


There are more than three million possible configurations for the Mac Pro. You want more?
iMacs come in four brilliant configurations. Apple decides what is best for users and it generally is. That is good hardware design. Having said that, it would have been greatly appreciated if they allowed custom configurations on their products. Let us concede that this is one point against them.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Windows is a great tool for Software development; so many IDEs are available for it. I don't know about any Mac based IDE other then JAVA, Carbon & Cocoa, plz tell me


And they are enough. Actually, I don't have much knowledge about this aspect so I won't comment much on it. But I know it for a fact that Macintosh software generally is much better than their PC counterparts. A brilliant example is Microsoft Office. Microsoft Office for Mac is much better than Office 2003 and it was released in 2001. However, the latest Windows release has left the Macintosh version behind.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> PCs & Windows have games;


About the only decent point you have made. You say that Macs don't get viruses because they only constitute a very small percentage of the market and therefore, you don't think it is an achievement to be virus free. Well, games are not developed for the same reason. Why don't you consider that now? I can also say that if Apple had a greater market share, they would have had more games.
Anyway, you can always instal Windows on your Mac for your gaming needs. And there is this upcoming technology called 'Cider' that promises to enable Windows' games to run natively on Mac OS X.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> they can connect to many 3rd party devices easily out of the box such as XBOX, PS3, TiVo, AIWA & Sony Stereo system with USB, not the same case with Mac....


The XBOX cannot be connected because it is made by Microsoft. I can also say that you cannot connect an iSight camera to a PC.
And apart from TiVo, the other hardware you mentioned can be connected to a Mac too.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> If u want a desktop for the flaunt value, & not productivity all the time, then go for Mac.


I am much more productive on my Macintosh because I don't have to spend precious working hours troubleshooting problems with the system. It does not hang or crash, can go on working for months without tiring out, has a fast and responsive UI and has much better applications. Plus, if my work involves some Windows or Linux specific application, I have several ways to use it. What will you do if you want to use GarageBand?



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> U can pay more & get a Mac (hardware) then u can install any OS on it, in 25% less price u can get a PC which is as powerful as the Mac is, in hardware config


And you cannot run Mac OS X on it. And I challenge you to find me a computer that has the same (or better) configuration as any Macintosh and costs 25 percent less than it. It must have a legal copy of Windows XP Professional installed on it.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> U won't have to worry about antivirus & viruses on Mac. A Plus point


Yeah, I know that and it's high time you stopped finding excuses for it.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> For office work, Windows based PCs are best, even Linux with open office is awesome, due to its low system requirement & it runs on the same PC hardware along with Windows 2000 SP4/XP SP2


Both Microsoft Office and OpenOffice are available for the Macintosh too (in addition to iWork).



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Arya, better not compare Windows XP with Tiger, there is a difference of 4 years between them. Why don't u compare XP SP2 with tiger or XP with Puma


First of all, it is neither mine nor Apple's fault that Microsoft takes five years to upgrade their operating system. And I am comparing Tiger with XP SP2 only. Tiger beats the crap out of Windows XP SP2 and even Vista. Tiger is already better than Vista and Leopard is going to be even better.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Mac is not the most secure & compatible anymore, just yesterday apple released a mega patch, 22 fixes in it. All software are buggy, & insecure.


Yeah, I know that. I never said that Macs were perfect. They are leaps and bounds ahead of Windows, yes but they are not perfect (and can never be).



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> There are many features not in Windows by default, for them u have many 3rd party addons & apps, Windows is a wide platform for 3rd party developers to stay on, this is what made Windows what it is today.


Why aren't they there by default? They should be there. Why should you have to pay additional money for something that Apple bundles with the operating system? If you bought a computer and made your OS comparable to Mac OS X, you would have spent more than a Macintosh. You would have to spend on security applications, equivalents of the iLife suite, various mods that would make XP more functionally equivalent to a Macintosh.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> On Mac most of the apps are developed by Apple itself, not many 3rd party apps although there are


That is a myth. Apple only makes the default applications that are bundled, iWork (Keynote and Pages), Final Cut Studio (Final Cut Pro, Soundtrack Pro, Motion, DVD Studio Pro and Compressor), Aperture, Logic Pro and Shake. And the thousands of other applications are all made by third-party developers, and there are many of them.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> & they still lack with Windows in feature department (Yahoo messeneger is an example)


LOL! Have you seen Yahoo! Messenger for Mac? It looks better than the Windows version, works better than the Windows version and has almost every feature the Windows version has (except support for sound, and it is coming soon).



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> With your last post, we are again back to post 1 of this thread, despite of all the reasons, u r biased towards a Mac, u cannot confess that your decision is wrong (if it is) cos u own it, well, u have paid money for it, now onbiously u will defend it, atleast Windows users are not afraid to blame Windows in case of problem, but in your case u can not blame Apple at all


If I have made one right decision in my life, it has been to by the Apple MacBook Pro when I was out there looking for a laptop and thinking of Sony and HP. I can never ever go back to working on Windows and all my future computers are bound to be Macs.


----------



## gxsaurav (Nov 30, 2006)

> Yes, I know that. So what! It is good, right? And that is all that matters



If that is what matters, then stop arguing in these posts, u cannot justify Windows being bad, cos it runs on various hardware config & it's not tied to any of them



> There are more than three million possible configurations for the Mac Pro. You want more?



Yeah, what about Geforce 7600GT, Radeon X1650XT, X-Fi (if u want to use Windows on it).  I m sure a user will void his warranty if he adds his own sound card to the Mac Pro, like I said already many time, & I m again repeating, where is the option to customize it as I want? Good that even u understood the novelty we PC users enjoy with PCs, our own custom hardware config.



> Yeah, I know that. I never said that Macs were perfect. They are leaps and bounds ahead of Windows, yes but they are not perfect (and can never be).



Woha....then what were u saying in all these pages



> Why aren't they there by default? They should be there



U already know the reason, due to their big market share, even a small new feature is treated as Anti-Competitive. Don't u know what happened with kernel patch guard & WMP for Europe? MS can't give features, not cos they can't but cos they are not allowed to. U think MS will not be sued again, if they bundle Word 2007 Lite edition in Windows. 

They are doing it this time in case of Vista, bundling many application in it, such as a calendar app, Windows Mail, (already there from long time as Outlook), Windows defender, & now I just hope they don't get sued for giving features in Vista, their own OS



> iWork (Keynote and Pages), Final Cut Studio (Final Cut Pro, Soundtrack Pro, Motion, DVD Studio Pro and Compressor), Aperture, Logic Pro and Shake. And the thousands of other applications are all made by third-party developers, and there are many of them.



WTF......better go read again the WebPages of these apps. Final cut studio, logic, motion, shake, iwork is made by Apple as far as I know, u said it so many times yourself already that these are Apple's own application



> LOL! Have you seen Yahoo! Messenger for Mac?



Nope, just a few screenshots, hey, when was Yahoo messenger 3 beta released for Mac? 2006, when was the last version released (2.5), in 2002...wow, quite a long development time. Although yahoo is to blame here. We windows users are already enjoying webcam, audio, file transfer from 2004



> If I have made one right decision in my life



Use whatever u like, just don't rant about your product being the best, & make other buy it, they have their own choices too, even your product has flaws, but stop portraying it as a flawless product



> there is this upcoming technology called 'Cider' that promises to enable Windows' games to run *natively* on Mac OS X



Only on X86 Mac, which is a PC inside, using PC components just like dell, HP, alienware etc. They will work cos there is no re-compilation required as the CPU is same as X86 PC CPU



> And apart from TiVo, the other hardware you mentioned can be connected to a Mac too



This is just a small list man. I laughed at the first page of this thread, where u added an iSight camera to a PC config & the said PC is costly 



> I have several ways to use it. What will you do if you want to use GarageBand?



I would say, this is something wrong from Apple side, that they release their apps which are not modular, they are not able to run on Windows/Linux running on PC at all, Linux & Windows are so much modular, that they were capable of running on X86 Mac, even before bootcamp. Apple was just being cocky when they released that "Run Windows XP on Mac" challenge. All hail the PC enthusiast community, which can do any wonder with our hardware



> And you cannot run Mac OS X on it



Yeah, we can't but whose fault is that? Linux & Windows run on any PC, not just a few particular hardware, so it obviously is Apple's fault that they are not releasing it for the mass market, but then again apple is a hardware company, they can't do it, there Mac sales because of MacOS X. But U have no reason to call Windows & PCs bad cos they run on so many hardware configs, & get problems due to either bad drivers or user stupidness



> And I challenge you to find me a computer that has the same (or better) configuration as any Macintosh and costs 25 percent less than it. It must have a legal copy of Windows XP Professional installed on It.



Lolz....ask anyone here, Tarey, mehul, meditator, anyone here, & then go to your local computer market to find the prices yourself



> Both Microsoft Office and OpenOffice are available for the Macintosh too (in addition to iWork).



For which u need at least a Rs. 25k Mac mini, isn't it. The last time I checked, I configured an office PC for running Office 2003/2007 for just Rs 18k here. Although Windows was free on it (u know how), but even with legal Linux & open office the cost was same.

Admit it arya, Apple & Mac are severally limiting the hardware & software choices, the only thing i hate about them. U think i won't like to use an OS without the worry of virus or anything like that, i sure will, but i want to run it on my own PC, whose components i can chose myself

They won't release iwork or ilife for other platform, cos then this will hamper their hardware sales, well, this is justified fact, but Mac fan boys saying that Windows or PCs sux cos they do not run these apps is literally absurd



> First of all, it is neither mine nor Apple's fault that Microsoft takes five years to upgrade their operating system



In which time, Apple released 5 Operating system each requiring $130 to upgrade, which totals to $650, when the new features given were justified only service packs, which we windows/Linux users get for free.

Now don't reply by saying that, each new gadget in dashboard is a feature ..Lolz, I still remember the apple page stating each gadget as a new feature.

there is no point arguing anymore, u better read all the posts written on the previous pages, & u will understand, why PC is still a better choice then a Mac, & why there are reasons to get a PC insted of Mac. Mac is good, but if it is so good then I ask u MacBoys 2 things

1) Why isn't Apple relesing it for General PCs too, it's also X86 now

2) Why is apple giving the option to run Windows XP on Mac hardware at all, isn't their own OS supirior, or is it just a way to attract Windows users to their hardware to increse sales


----------



## aryayush (Nov 30, 2006)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Woha....then what were u saying in all these pages


That Mac OS X is a better operating system than Windows XP.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> U already know the reason, due to their big market share, even a small new feature is treated as Anti-Competitive. Don't u know what happened with kernel patch guard & WMP for Europe? MS can't give features, not cos they can't but cos they are not allowed to. U think MS will not be sued again, if they bundle Word 2007 Lite edition in Windows.
> 
> They are doing it this time in case of Vista, bundling many application in it, such as a calendar app, Windows Mail, (already there from long time as Outlook), Windows defender, & now I just hope they don't get sued for giving features in Vista, their own OS


I knew this was coming. This is just an excuse you guys have made up after that WMP fiasco. No one is going to sue MS if they make a more responsive PC, get rid of the registry, make installing/uninstalling applications simpler, provide more extensive support for drag-and-drop, add any number of features. And even if someone does sue them, Microsoft should fight it out in the interest of their customers. But they won't do it because (a) they don't care; and (b) it will cost money. The reason Apple has such a loyal following is that Apple respects their customers and provides the best support for their products. Microsoft treats their customers like ****. They install software on the system that repeatedly phones back home to inform MS that the product is genuine, and if it makes a mistake, the operating system become unusable. There have been cases where people have had to buy another license though they had one in the first place. Microsoft does not even have a toll-free number to call for support.
Microsoft is a global giant. No one can force them to exclude features from their OS that they want to incorporate in it.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> WTF......better go read again the WebPages of these apps. Final cut studio, logic, motion, shake, iwork is made by Apple as far as I know, u said it so many times yourself already that these are Apple's own application





			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Apple only makes the default applications that are bundled, iWork (Keynote and Pages), Final Cut Studio (Final Cut Pro, Soundtrack Pro, Motion, DVD Studio Pro and Compressor), Aperture, Logic Pro and Shake.


I recommend elementary english classes. 8)



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> We windows users are already enjoying webcam, audio, file transfer from 2004


Three words: iChat and Skype.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Use whatever u like, just don't rant about your product being the best, & make other buy it, they have their own choices too, even your product has flaws, but stop portraying it as a flawless product


I never did.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Only on X86 Mac, which is a PC inside, using PC components just like dell, HP, alienware etc. They will work cos there is no re-compilation required as the CPU is same as X86 PC CPU


And your point is? You wanted games, you have 'em.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> This is just a small list man.


My friend came to me with a Nikon camera that Windows XP wouldn't recognise and my Macintosh recognised and imported pictures from in a flash.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> I laughed at the first page of this thread, where u added an iSight camera to a PC config & the said PC is costly


Yeah, that was a silly goof-up.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> For which u need at least a Rs. 25k Mac mini, isn't it. The last time I checked, I configured an office PC for running Office 2003/2007 for just Rs 18k here.


Could you carry it around with you? Did it have an operating system that has the slickest effects and does not even require a GPU? Were people awed by your machine? Did it have a slot-loading drive? Could it do even basic audio/video editing? Wasn't it susceptible to malware and viruses?



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> In which time, Apple released 5 Operating system each requiring $130 to upgrade, which totals to $650, when the new features given were justified only service packs, which we windows/Linux users get for free.


Correction: Mac OS X was released before XP, so the intermediate releases amount to a total of four, the upgrade cost being $520, which is less than the price of Windows Vista Ultimate and Tiger is still better than Vista. Plus, you could chose to upgrade only to alternate released and the cost would be half as much. You would still be ahead of the Windows brethren. Windows users, on the other hand, have had to remain behind in the technology race for the past four years even if they were willing to pay for an upgrade.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Mac is good, but if it is so good then I ask u MacBoys 2 things
> 
> 1) Why isn't Apple relesing it for General PCs too, it's also X86 now
> 
> 2) Why is apple giving the option to run Windows XP on Mac hardware at all, isn't their own OS supirior, or is it just a way to attract Windows users to their hardware to increse sales


1) Because the Mac experience is all about solid integration between the hardware and software.
2) So that people who are considering switching to the Mac feel comfortable knowing that they have a safety net. Also, Apple knows that once they use Mac OS X for a few days, they'll never want to use Windows anyway.

If you say a custom built PC is better than a Macintosh for so and so reason, we might understand. But don't ever challenge the fact that Mac OS X is the greatest operating system yet.


----------



## gxsaurav (Nov 30, 2006)

> I knew this was coming. This is just an excuse you guys have made up after that WMP fiasco. No one is going to sue MS if they make a more responsive PC, get rid of the registry, make installing/uninstalling applications simpler, provide more extensive support for drag-and-drop, add any number of features. And even if someone does sue them, Microsoft should fight it out in the interest of their customers. But they won't do it because (a) they don't care; and (b) it will cost money. The reason Apple has such a loyal following is that Apple respects their customers and provides the best support for their products. Microsoft treats their customers like ****.



Anti MS & a pure Apple fan boy remark, yeah right....well, I m not going to say how Apple treats the customers by charging them $130 every year for OS upgrades, or $100 for an iPod leather pouch or again $100 for a webcam..it's the Mac & MacOS X thing here, tell me a single point how MS doesn't care for their customer, & yeah, if they include features they will be sued, the always get sued. They paid EC million of dollars in fine, just due to including their own WMP in Windows XP, I have already said it before why, so go & read. Stop making kiddish comments like 5 years old kids

& plz registry is not bad ok, it's a centralised database of keys that any apps can access, it's shared, U have to understand what it is first before u say anything against it



> They install software on the system that repeatedly phones back home to inform MS that the product is genuine, and if it makes a mistake, the operating system become unusable. There have been cases where people have had to buy another license though they had one in the first place. Microsoft does not even have a toll-free number to call for support.



WGA is buggy, yeah, I agree. But they are forced to do it, their OS is the most pirated one, Apple has no such thing, cos to use MacOS X U will have to buy Mac hardware, which again in my opinion is wrong. Even in case of PC OEMs/Operating system they do not bound u to a single OS/hardware. I wonder how this policy of apple is good, when u make comments that apple is good cos the hardware is tied to the OS with limited user customisation. Well, if today MS jumps in PC Hardware market, & starts making Microsoft PCs, trust me arya, they will beat the record of even Dell in sales & will be the best is stability out there, but they won’t, cos they are software makers, they give the user choice to install Windows on any hardware, unlike apple

One question - Does ichat works with Yahoo?



> I never did.



Ok, no more discussion when u don't even admit what u were saying on all these pages 



> And your point is? You wanted games, you have 'em.



With limited support, what about all the PPC users, they still account for more than 80% of overall Mac users I guess. U want to play windows games, better use Windows for it



> Could you carry it around with you? Did it have a slot-loading drive? Could it do even basic audio/video editing? Wasn't it susceptible to malware and viruses?



Like someone already said, yeah u can carry a 25k Linux laptop with u, yeah u can carry a 25k Linux laptop & install windows on it by other means, yeah u can buy Windows XP home edition (Rs 3600) & still the price is Rs 21,600. 



> Did it have an operating system that has the slickest effects and does not even require a GPU?



I didn't get this part? All computer have them, even Core 2 duo Mac mini has GMA 950,wait r u thinking that GMA 950 is a measly graphics chip & still capable of running MacOS X Quartz, oh plz, u really need to study about graphics chip now, GMA 950 has enough horsepower to run an OS despite of being measly, & that 18k PC can have GMA 950 graphics too.

Windows/Linux do not need a separate AGP/PCIe GPU  to run all the cool effects anyway, Vista is different though. U were comparing XP to MacOS X, well, XP runs perfectly fine on Intel 845, Via S3 Mirage graphics which came in 2002.

Slot loading drive, ok now u tell me how that makes a Mac mini better, it's just a drive.



> Were people awed by your machine?



Wait wait , u buy a computer of 32k to show off to your friends, wow, gr8...only u can pay that much money on a Computer just so that u can show & flaunt it. I would rather use that money on doing some bike modifications

Basic audio video editing, well...let’s see

1) Virtualdub & its mod = free
2) Windows movie maker = free
3) Nero (usually comes as OEM)=  free & yeah, Nero is quite a good bundle, it gives u recode, wave editor, photo snap & more too



> Wasn't it susceptible to malware and viruses?



U R again bringing the old discussion here, refrain from it, I have already given the answer to this question



> The upgrade cost being $520, which is less than the price of Windows Vista Ultimate



Windows Vista ultimate = $400, u buy it ones to use it for many years to come, u get free updates & service packs, at least 5 years, I don't think it as too much money for a OS U R going to use for 5 or 6 years



> Windows users, on the other hand, have had to remain behind in the technology race for the past four years even if they were willing to pay for an upgrade.



SATA came first on which platform? HD Audio came first on which platform? Mac or PC araya



> 1) because the Mac experience is all about solid integration between the hardware and software



Well, yeah, that’s true, their own hardware & their own software, now is this the fault of MS if Joe user installs some bad driver on Windows & crashes his PC, I hope u don't reply by saying that Macs don't crash even with bad drivers



> So that people who are considering switching to the Mac feel comfortable knowing that they have a safety net. Also, Apple knows that once they use Mac OS X for a few days, they'll never want to use Windows anyway.



What a reason, wow, apple is good, MS is bad, this is your thinking, which cannot be changed, and no matter how much valid justification we PC & Windows users give u it will stay the same way. I donno who opened this thread again & why, when the end result is same, u cannot change your thinking, even if we give u valid points. U cannot change our thinking cos we PC users like to run our OS & apps on hardware of our choice


----------



## aryayush (Nov 30, 2006)

OK, fine. Have it your way.

But I can assure you this, the day you buy a Macintosh computer (if you do) for any reason, maybe you want something with a high flaunt value, have saved up a sizeable amount of money and want to invest it in a computer, whatever - you will be here on this forum and you will be posting comments about how much better than Windows it is. I know only three people on this forum who have bought a Mac, and all three are more than satisifed with it and can never consider switching back to Windows.


----------



## FatBeing (Nov 30, 2006)

_Personal comments deleted. _
Andy, GX - keep it civil. Like the rules say - if you can't keep your cool, don't post.

First one to go "But he abused me first" gets miserabled.


----------



## gxsaurav (Nov 30, 2006)

ok, i won't say who started it first, everyone knows the fact. I didn't even point at any particular membar.


----------



## digitadmin (Dec 1, 2006)

You guys are such kids. It's obvious that both PCs and MACs have their advantages, so just choose one and shut up! Some people like skinny women/men, some like fat ones, who cares, it just means that everyone's happy, and everyone gets lucky! Can't you all just be happy?

Both of you are like horses wearing blinders, refusing to listen to the other's comments. 

@fatbeing: gxsaurav's las post seems to be in blatant disregard to your warning, so I'm miserabling him for a week. Admins / mods please un-miserable him next friday! Sorry gxsaurav, but you should learn to listen to admins, when he said DO NOT post about WHO STARTED IT, a comment like "ok, i won't say who started it first, everyone knows the fact." is like you saying "Hah! I don't care about the rules!"

Just to be fair, the same applies to mail2and. gx gets normal status back after a week, mail2and gets mod status back after a week. For now, i sincerely hope that a week in shameful misery will calm you both down a little. Since i'm the forgetful type, will Raabo or fatbeing please revert their status back to normal by friday?

Digitadmin


----------



## goobimama (Dec 2, 2006)

> Fight Club: The Debate Zone. Sensitive and controversial topics will be discussed here — only the thick-skinned should enter



Maybe that should be changed...


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## FatBeing (Dec 2, 2006)

No, it will not be changed. It means that you should enter only if you can listen to your views be challenged without losing your cool.


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## aryayush (Dec 3, 2006)

This is what _digit_ had to say about the Apple PowerBook G4 in the laptop shootout (page 64) of its October 2005 issue:





> *Apple PowerBook G4*
> With the PowerBook G4, Apple seems to have put a lot of effort into getting things just right. They have here come up with the successor to the Titanium Powerbook, again implementing a G4 processor, but the 1.5 GHz has been pumped up to 1.67 GHz, and the titanium has been replaced by Aluminium-and that's why its been nicked the AlBook.
> The AlBook comes in three flavours-the 12-inch, the 17-inch, and the one we had a look at-the 15-inch.
> All new PowerBooks come with a standard 512 MB of memory, fast graphics, integrated Airport 802.11g, Bluetooth 2.0 wireless networking, and two new Apple technologies-the scrolling TrackPad and the Sudden Motion Sensor (SMS).
> ...


And this is '*A Final Word*' they ended the shootout with (I am only quoting the PowerBook specific comments here):





> The Apple PowerBook G4 was in a league of its own. It is the ultimate in style, and is a laptop with an attitude. If you are searching for a laptop to brag about without a platform in mind, your search ends here. This is _the_ laptop for you-period!
> If you're out to make a point and re-affirm to the world that you're no mere mortal, go get one of these!


I need hardly mention that they were waxing eloquent about it. You'd think it was a review by an Apple/Mac specific magazine. Go around the internet, you're likely to find hordes of similar reviews.


----------



## tarey_g (Dec 3, 2006)

^^ You can also find many reviews on the internet say that a normal laptop of same config will be a cheaper deal. So what does it prove?


			
				Digitadmin said:
			
		

> It's obvious that both PCs and MACs have their advantages, so just choose one and shut up!


----------



## aryayush (Dec 4, 2006)

You guys don't understand, do you? It's not about the hardware configuration, it is about the package as a whole. Mac OS X has some amazing effects even on an on-board graphics solution, while Vista will require a dedicated video card. So, you will need a computer with higher specs for running Vista. Now, if Apple can give similar (and in most cases, better) effects in its OS at a low hardware configuration, it is the company's strong point, not a drawback.
You just cannot compare the hardware directly. What Apple sells is an experience, not just the hardware and software. It is a rock solid and stable platform. Not only that, must things are truly plug and play. For example, my SE phone, when connected to a particular USB port on my Windows XP machine for first time, takes a lot of time to be usable because of the drivers that XP installs. On my Mac, it connected instantly the first time I connected it.
You guys keep moaning about the price. I am not aware of many laptops the give you the best processor in the world, on-board stereo surround sound, slot loading SuperDrive, light, motion and dual-touch sensors, scrolling trackpad, magnetic power connector, built-in camera and hidden mic, a gigabyte of RAM, a complete set of connectivity options (including, but not limited to, Bluetooth 2.0, Wi-Fi anf FireWire 800 and 400) and a  decent graphics card (the only area where is still lacks a little) for Rs 1,30,000. Add to that the best operating system, arguably the best suite of creative applications (iLife) and a media center. Plus, the ability to run any operating system right inside OS X itself (Parallels, VMWare).
For Rs 1,30,000, you get a laptop that is the thinnest and lightest in its class, is very sexy looking and has no stickers. You also get an operating system that works almost flawlessly and never crashes. Even the _Calculator_ on Mac OS X is highly advanced! Add to that the top-notch support the company provides (both for the hardware as well as the software) and you have a winner.

You might argue that it is a tad over-priced than similarly equipped laptops. Well, those laptops do not have Mac OS X or iLife. Heck, they do not even have slot-loading drives. And things that are better do cost a little more than things that are not.
And if you come up with some wierd suggestion that "in 25% less price u can get a PC which is as powerful as the Mac is, in hardware config", I'd like to see some concrete proof. Before purchasing the MacBook Pro, I was out here on the digit forum asking people to recommend me a decent laptop within the budget of one lac, and did not get even one recommendation that matched the MacBook Pro even in terms of just the hardware configuration. And anyway, as I pointed out in my post, just the hardware configuration does not necessarily make a good computer.
__________


			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> In which time, Apple released 5 Operating system each requiring $130 to upgrade, which totals to $650, when the new features given were justified only service packs, which we windows/Linux users get for free.


This is one point he has been making for a long time and I have looked it up now. Turns out, his statement is totally false.
Mac OS X 10.0 "Cheetah" was released in March, 2001 and Windows XP much later in October, 2001. So the total intermediate releases have been four, not five. And since Mac OS X 10.1 "Puma" was a free upgrade, the number of paid OS upgrades falls to three. So the total amount you would have had to shell out had you been updating your OS every time a new one was released would have been $(120 x 3) = $360. Yes, the cost of an OS upgrade is $120, not $130. I don't know where you get your pricing information from but a Google search tells me (on three seperate links) that the price of Windows Vista Ultimate is $450. That is ninety dollars more than what you would have paid had you bought a Mac in 2001 and stuck with it.
Now, since the upgrade from 10.0 (Cheetah) to 10.4 (Tiger) is definitely more than XP to Vista and still the price of the upgrade is lesser, even if the intermediate releases had been more like service pack worthy updates, it would have been justified. But they were not.





> (The update from 10.2 "Jaguar" to 10.3 "Panther") was an incredible update; Many consider it to be the most significant OS X upgrade to date. It sported many new useful features such as Exposé, FileVault, Fast User Switching, iChat AV, and a revamped Finder. It also sported a major update to Aqua, giving it a much more refined, toned-down, professional look.


And the upgrade to Tiger was not a lean one either:





> Mac OS X 10.4 sported new features such as Dashboard, Core Image, Safari 2.0, and revamped Mail. It was mainly a “under the hood” upgrade, cleaning up, speeding up, and improving nearly half of the underlying frameworks. One of the more major visible upgrades was Spotlight, a revolutionary new search tool that searches through files and their metadata extremely quickly. Aqua also received minor updates in this release. It would be the first Mac OS X to have a publicly released x86 (Intel) variant.


If you can term all that as worthy of just a service pack and want them for free, you better switch to Linux pronto.

Compare this to Windows XP's service packs (amounting to just two in a span of five years) which basically introduced just a few added security features and a front-end to control them (which keeps bugging you if you are not connected to the internet and have therefore turned off your firewall and/or antivirus).

The problem is that you are accustomed to Microsoft taking a lot of time to update their products and add new functionality. Therefore, it is difficult for you to believe that any company has the capacity of keeping its developers on their toes and staying ahead of their time. Since you cannot digest the fact that Apple can introduce a slew of features on an annual basis, you just gloss over all the noteworthy new features and term them as no more than a supposed-to-be-free service pack.
I hope this post successfully clears some of your misconceptions. 

(Source for the upgrade summaries)


----------



## Aberforth (Dec 4, 2006)

This thread was interesting. There was a lot of mud slinging, perhaps the rule of thick skinned really applies here. I don't want to join as I don't have time and since it is 2 am and I can't get sleep I thought to put this up. 

I have used MacBook before buying my laptop as my girlfriend was raving about her MacBook 24/7 (maybe it should be called Macitosis, no offense meant ) and yes, I liked the OS but I bought an HP Laptop with Windows home edition because I got better hardward configuration for less than Rs. 40000 with Windows XP Home, I have better use of those 40000 than get a flaunt value laptop (HP isn't a crap laptop) or even a sleeker OS.

I had  virus thrice in Windows, once in email attachments and then in pen drives shared with virus infected public PCs. I don't get spywares as I don't visit warez or porn sites so virus isn't a big concern for me. I find Windows enough for all my use, it did not make me miserable after a few days use of Mac OSX. I could use ISS 6.0, do work on .NET apps, run all games out of the box (esp. my fav Flight Simulator 2004, GTA San Andreas and Age of Empires), get hardware cheaper and I could say I am happy with Windows XP even after using and liking Mac. 

I didn't get mad so far or think I've been missing out in life cause I have much more to do in life than sit at my laptop all day to quarrel 'my gun is better than yours'. Again, no offence meant 



			
				digitadmin said:
			
		

> You guys are such kids. It's obvious that both PCs and MACs have their advantages, so just choose one and shut up! Some people like skinny women/men, some like fat ones, who cares, it just means that everyone's happy, and everyone gets lucky! Can't you all just be happy?



I can do nothing else but agree...you got a Mac or Windows, be happy. It is a personal choice. Should I start older rambling older girls make better girlfriends and guys who date younger girls are immature? It is my choice and thats it, what is right for me may be unthinkably wrong for you, so just move on that.  

So concludes my two cents, feel free to throw mud at me as I won't be reading anymore as I have to go to bed.


----------



## mehulved (Dec 4, 2006)

Aberforth said:
			
		

> I can do nothing else but agree...you got a Mac or Windows, be happy.


 Hey where do we Linux users go


----------



## tarey_g (Dec 4, 2006)

tech_your_future said:
			
		

> Hey where do we Linux users go



Aren't u already happy ,atleast thats what linux users keep saying everywhere.


----------



## brutality9k (Dec 4, 2006)

2 years ago when digit tested the powerbook G4, they did not even tested it with any PC laptop, there was no point in testing it, no need, a laptop of 1.37 Lakh, when there are so many other laptops for far cheaper prices available. It was given in just a side note, that’s it...., no point to be made here



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> You guys don't understand, do you? It's not about the hardware configuration; it is about the package as a whole. Mac OS X has some amazing effects even on an on-board graphics solution, while Vista will require a dedicated video card.


 
You have any idea about graphics at all. Macbook pro comes with Radeon X1600 graphics card, which is not a low end graphics card from any means. Mac Mini comes with GMA 950 which is onboard, but has enough horsepower & Texel value to run Quartz with full OpenGL 1.5 support, it even has enough horsepower to support Windows Vista Aero interface, & yes Vista aero does runs fine on Onboard GMA 950 graphics just like MacOS X.




			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> So, you will need a computer with higher specs for running Vista. Now, if Apple can give similar (and in most cases, better) effects in its OS at a low hardware configuration, it is the company's strong point, not a drawback


 
Try running Tiger on Powerbook G3 & then say how fast is that. You just have a wrong thinking made that Vista requires a high end computer. It runs fine on 3 years old computers running Pentium 4 2.4C with Geforce FX 5700 & 1 GB RAM. better clear this confusion. Vista is made to scale on many hardware configurations; it will perform according to your hardware, in the best possible way




			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> For example, my SE phone, when connected to a particular USB port on my Windows XP machine for first time, takes a lot of time to be usable because of the drivers that XP installs. On my Mac, it connected instantly the first time I connected it


 
Good, now tell me, was it detected & added as a removable drive or also as SE wireless Modem. Even if u refuse to install the drivers in Windows XP SP2/Vista, it will act as a removable drive, the drivers are required only for making it act like a modem. Go find out again, if your SE phone works in MacOS as a drive only or also as a GPRS/Edge modem without additional drivers. Also connect it on MacOS X Panther, & the say if it still works as plug & play. If Microsoft relese updated driver packs for Windows yearly, like Apple does with their OS yearly, then we would be having the latest motoKrzr drivers in Windows too




			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> I am not aware of many laptops the give you the best processor in the world, on-board stereo surround sound, slot loading SuperDrive, light, motion and dual-touch sensors, scrolling track pad, magnetic power connector, built-in camera and hidden mic, a gigabyte of RAM, a complete set of connectivity options (including, but not limited to, Bluetooth 2.0, Wi-Fi and FireWire 800 and 400) and a decent graphics card (the only area where is still lacks a little) for Rs 1,30,000


 
U need to learn something about laptops. Macbook pro component wise does not costs more than 70K, go figure this yourself. That is the whole cost of the device hardware wise, so I guess rest 60k is either pure profit if they are providing the OS/ application suits free, or has the cost of those apps is hidden in this 60K itself. U are pawned by buying a 1.3l lakh laptop, when u could have bought a far cheaper laptop from dell or HP, with same components. But anyway, u flaunt your laptop, well, we Windows/PC users like to flaunt our bikes, cars etc. Check again, for 1.3 lakh, there are littrally 20 to 30 laptops out there with that configuration from Dell, HP, Acer,Asus & other manufacturers

Dell laptops, Apple Macbook, all made by Quanta 

Also, i guess u forgot to say how hot Macbook gets, that it is giving so many troubles already in the market, such as fading plastic body and all that. The keypad can work as a finger massaging device




			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Well, those laptops do not have Mac OS X or iLife. Heck, they do not even have slot-loading drives.


 
Yes they don't, cos apple has limited MacOS X to their own hardware limiting the users choice to run it anywhere on any PC, they flaunt that they are good when they are just PCs. 

About slot loading drive, u should know it's mechanical, so if the Optical disk goes in, there is no pin or eject button to take it out manually in case it jams, u have to take it to the Apple centre but in case of tray loading drives, there is a small hole to open it manually in emergency




			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> The problem is that you are accustomed to Microsoft taking a lot of time to update their products and add new functionality. Therefore, it is difficult for you to believe that any company has the capacity of keeping its developers on their toes and staying ahead of their time.


 
you are saying it like apple does not releases updates for their OS monthly, every software maker does that. Where did u find out the cost of Vista ultimate as $450, it's officially $400




			
				Aberforth said:
			
		

> I have used MacBook before buying my laptop as my girlfriend was raving about her MacBook 24/7 (maybe it should be called Macitosis, no offense meant ) and yes, I liked the OS but I bought an HP Laptop with Windows home edition because I got better hardware configuration for less than Rs. 40000 with Windows XP Home, I have better use of those 40000 than get a flaunt value laptop (HP isn't a crap laptop) or even a sleeker OS.


 
Someone who used his brains, instead of going for flashing things only. Design does looks good, but comon 60K premium for the hardware, Apple must be insane




			
				digitadmin said:
			
		

> You guys are such kids. It's obvious that both PCs and MACs have their advantages, so just choose one and shut up!


 
Well said, now can u plz tell these macboys to also shut up & be happy with their choice instead of singing the old tune that mac hardware is better than PC when it's proved so many times by so many members, that it's just over priced PC




			
				Aberforth said:
			
		

> Should I start older rambling older girls make better girlfriends and guys who date younger girls are immature?


 well said man, this is indeed true




			
				tech_your_future said:
			
		

> Hey where do we Linux users go


 
Linux is an OS, we are talking about Mac & PC hardware here, and PC literally means Windows


----------



## Aberforth (Dec 4, 2006)

tech_your_future said:
			
		

> Hey where do we Linux users go



Sorry for the omission. I repeat be happy with Mac OSX, Windows, Linux, BSD or whatever OS you got. I didn't know my opinion mattered that much 




			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> I am not aware of many laptops the give you the best processor in the world, on-board stereo surround sound, slot loading SuperDrive, light, motion and dual-touch sensors, scrolling track pad, magnetic power connector, built-in camera and hidden mic, a gigabyte of RAM, a complete set of connectivity options (including, but not limited to, Bluetooth 2.0, Wi-Fi and FireWire 800 and 400) and a decent graphics card (the only area where is still lacks a little) for Rs 1,30,000



My laptop cost me Rs.64000/- and had everything you mentioned except Superdrive, magnetic power connector, built-in camera and hidden mic. I don't really miss the former two and I could always get a tiny camera with mic for 5000 if I ever need to instead of blowing Rs.40000/- extra for a configuration with a lower graphics card. Plus you can always check out Dell Latitude or Precision to get all you want.

The fact is Apple is expensive and charges a high premium just like some Sony Vaio models do and a better OS does not justify such a price in my opinion. I have tried SuSe Linux 10 and it has much the same features as a Mac OS X maybe with bit and pieces here and there. I don't like the design of Macbook Pro much, it looks plasticly, I'd rather go for a Sony Vaio or Fujitsu Lifebook if I wanted the flaunt value.


----------



## NikhilVerma (Dec 4, 2006)

I really learned a lot about Mac and even Windows in this thread. But that was like the first page only ... After that everyone got pissed and started proving each other wrong. Anyways I think I have gained enough knowledge from this thread and now everything is a repeat.

And well I just want some of you guys to see the "Smug Alert" episode of south park.... it's the 2nd episode of Season 10 ...  ... It's gonna remind some of you about themselves.


----------



## aryayush (Dec 4, 2006)

brutality9k said:
			
		

> 2 years ago when digit tested the powerbook G4, they did not even tested it with any PC laptop, there was no point in testing it, no need, a laptop of 1.37 Lakh, when there are so many other laptops for far cheaper prices available. It was given in just a side note, that’s it...., no point to be made here


And they were still prising it sky-high in the conclusion, even though it was not even featured in the shoot-out!



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> Even if u refuse to install the drivers in Windows XP SP2/Vista, it will act as a removable drive


No, it won't. Here's a screenshot of the error that pops up when you cancel the installation of drivers:

*img142.imageshack.us/img142/4439/picture2kd7.th.png

Is it so hard to back your comments by fact?



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> U need to learn something about laptops. Macbook pro component wise does not costs more than 70K, go figure this yourself.


Why should I! You are the one who is posting it so you should be the one who should back it up with proof. These are the hardware specs of the MacBook Pro:





> *Display*: 17-inch (diagonal), 1680 x 1050 resolution, TFT widescreen
> *Processor*: 2.33GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
> *Memory*: 2GB (two SO-DIMMs) 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM (PC2-5300)
> *PCI Express graphics*: ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 with 256MB of GDDR3 SDRAM and dual-link DVI
> ...


Name me one laptop that offers all this at 70K. Just ONE.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> Also, i guess u forgot to say how hot Macbook gets, that it is giving so many troubles already in the market, such as fading plastic body and all that. The keypad can work as a finger massaging device


Yes, it does. And that is because the body is just one inch thick (or should I say 'thin') and it packs in so much horsepower within the slim frame. Apple sets the default fan speed to 1000 RPM. You can download a simple application (Fan Control or smcFanControl) and increase that speed and it becomes actually cool to the touch. There is also a Terminal command for doing it if you do not want to download a 150KB application. In fact, when I enter my house nowadays, I just lower the fan speed to the default and warm my hands. So it actually serves as a useful feature. It may sound like a justfication and you might scoff at it, but it is highly convenient for me. And the problems of fading plastic body have only plagued some of the MacBooks (not the Pros either) and Apple replaces the body if you encounter such a problem. It is a problem that affects a very limited set of users. You cannot expect something to be totally flawless.
FYI, my brother in Kolkata has a Compaq laptop and it has not even been a whole year since he bought it. The colour is totally faded off where he rests his palms.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> About slot loading drive, u should know it's mechanical, so if the Optical disk goes in, there is no pin or eject button to take it out manually in case it jams, u have to take it to the Apple centre but in case of tray loading drives, there is a small hole to open it manually in emergency


Because the whole process including the injection and ejection of the disk is automatic (mechanical), it is much less prone to being jammed than normal tray loading drives. Plus, it has no easy to break plastic tray. Isn't prevention better than cure? The only advantage a tray loading drive enjoys over a slot-loading one is that it can double up as a glass holder!



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> you are saying it like apple does not releases updates for their OS monthly, every software maker does that.


Yeah, I know that and I NEVER said anything that could be construed as being against that statement. In fact, my whole point was that while Apple releases upgrades to its products on an annual basis, MS does so once in five years.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> Where did u find out the cost of Vista ultimate as $450, it's officially $400


OK, it still is $40 more than Apple's total OS upgrades since the release of XP.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> Someone who used his brains, instead of going for flashing things only. Design does looks good, but comon 60K premium for the hardware, Apple must be insane


Again, that statement holds no value at all unless you can show us some proof.


----------



## brutality9k (Dec 4, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> No, it won't. Here's a screenshot of the error that pops up when you cancel the installation of drivers


 
I wonder, is that Windows XP SP2? or simple XP, cos my W550i was detected as a removable drive (just the memory card part)



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Why should I! You are the one who is posting it so you should be the one who should back it up with proof. These are the hardware specs of the MacBook Pro:Name me one laptop that offers all this at 70K. Just ONE.


 
Plz read again, i mentioned that Macbook's hardware price is 70k, & they sale it at 1.3lakh. A PC Laptop with smilier config will salefor 90 to 110k



> Yes, it does. And that is because the body is just one inch thick (or should I say 'thin') and it packs in so much horsepower within the slim frame. Apple sets the default fan speed to 1000 RPM. You can download a simple application (Fan Control or smcFanControl) and increase that speed and it becomes actually cool to the touch. There is also a Terminal command for doing it if you do not want to download a 150KB application. In fact, when I enter my house nowadays, I just lower the fan speed to the default and warm my hands. So it actually serves as a useful feature. It may sound like a justfication and you might scoff at it, but it is highly convenient for me. And the problems of fading plastic body have only plagued some of the MacBooks (not the Pros either) and Apple replaces the body if you encounter such a problem. It is a problem that affects a very limited set of users. You cannot expect something to be totally flawless.


 
Wow, u macboys will never admit, apple laptops were burning, all the heat problems, fading problems, but no, for u it's convinient, just bash anything PC/Linux/Windows, thats the policy of Mac users



> Yeah, I know that and I NEVER said anything that could be construed as being against that statement. In fact, my whole point was that while Apple releases upgrades to its products on an annual basis, MS does so once in five years.


 
Windows XP SP1 & SP2, free, relesed in 2002 & 2004


----------



## aryayush (Dec 4, 2006)

brutality9k said:
			
		

> I wonder, is that Windows XP SP2? or simple XP, cos my W550i was detected as a removable drive (just the memory card part)


LOL! I might even have believed that had it not been for the fact that W550i does not support memory cards. LOL! 
And yes, I have Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2.
FYI, every sort of hardware you connect to Windows XP (or even Vista) requires the installation of drivers first. If you cancel the process, the device simply won't work. I have tried USB drives, external hard drive, camera and my phone. Nothing works without drivers.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> Plz read again, i mentioned that Macbook's hardware price is 70k, & they sale it at 1.3lakh. A PC Laptop with smilier config will slae for 90 to 110k


What sort of a ridiculous comment is that! Then why'd you say that Apple made a profit of 60K? You should have said 20K. Doesn't developing software cost the company? Plus, I do not know of any MacBook that costs 1.3 lacs. The highest end MacBook Pro costs 1.3 lac, and I posted its specs. Now when I challenged you to prove your point, you come up with such an incredibly lame statement!
Everyone keeps shouting about how expensive Apple is and when it comes to actually proving something, they cannot recommend even a single machine with the company name and model number. Yes, you may get a similarly configured laptop for maybe 120K, but it is completely justified that Apple charges 10K extra for making the sexiest and lightest laptop in its class with one of the brightest displays available in the market, a beautiful backlit keyboard, on-board sudden motion sensors, a much better operating system than Windows crap and a host of professional quality bundled software. My challenge still stands firm, find me a computer that is comparable to a Mac in terms of specs and is 25% cheaper (as gxsaurav suggested), or a laptop that retails at 70-90-110K and is comparable to a MacBook Pro.
Let Vista be released, you'll see the cost of laptops that come bundled with Vista ultimate shooting up. But the price of MacBooks and MacBook Pros that will come bundled with Leopard will actually fall.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> apple laptops were burning, all the heat problems


Yes, they were. Anything can have problems, but it is really no big deal when they have been fixed. As I already mentioned, my laptop always remains cool to the touch now.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> for u it's convinient


I told you how the problem was easily fixed and then just added it as a trivial fact that it was really convenient for me that my laptop is warm during winter and I can give my biting hands some relief. Don't try to debate with non-existent points. I did not say that the laptop heating up was, in itself, convenient for me.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> Apple can't have flaws, right said, it's perfect


You are the one who expects that from Apple, not me. You are the one who is grumbling about small scale reports of a few MacBooks discolouring (which Apple fixed for free). You are the one dishing out already eradicated heat issues as points against how Apple should be perfect and isn't. I mentioned this in my previous post:





			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> You cannot expect something to be totally flawless.


I never said that Apple is perfect; never ever. A Macintosh is much better than a PC running on Windows, yes - but it is not flawlessly perfect.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> Windows XP SP1 & SP2, free, relesed in 2002 & 2004


Those were basically bug-fix releases to an existing operating system and added nothing substantial apart from added security. Those were patches, not really upgrades. Microsoft releases an upgrade to a 2001 product in 2007 and charges $400 for it. Apple releases upgrades on an annual basis and gives them for free and at half of the list price to people who are updating from an older version, the total expense being $40 less than Windows. And you still blame Apple; and call me baised and a fanboy! *www.tarmassia.it/muro/emo/smiley-org-rolleyes.gif


----------



## tarey_g (Dec 4, 2006)

NikhilVerma said:
			
		

> And well I just want some of you guys to see the "Smug Alert" episode of south park.... it's the 2nd episode of Season 10 ...  ... It's gonna remind some of you about themselves.



yeah dude , smug alert
__________


			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> FYI, *every sort of hardware you connect to Windows XP (or even Vista) requires the installation of drivers first*. If you cancel the process, the device simply won't work. I have tried USB drives, external hard drive, camera and my phone. Nothing works without drivers.



So wrong just dont write anything to make ur point or ppl wont bother to read ur entire post below,My sony Digicam works when it gets plugged, mp3 player(nano lookalike ) ,usb joypad,mercury usb drive and many other things.


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## mehulved (Dec 4, 2006)

@aryayush, with XP SP2 many gadgets can be connected without requiring drivers. Two of the things that I had used were bluetooth dongle and SE W800i. Didn't have to install any drivers for either of them.


----------



## Aberforth (Dec 4, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> FYI, every sort of hardware you connect to Windows XP (or even Vista) requires the installation of drivers first. If you cancel the process, the device simply won't work. I have tried USB drives, external hard drive, camera and my phone. Nothing works without drivers.



I used a logitech notebook mouse, keyboard, my SE w700i, my joystick, none of them required drivers. It recognised the devices immediately.


----------



## aryayush (Dec 4, 2006)

I am not talking about manual installation of drivers. The first time you connect any device to Windows XP (or Vista) it WILL install the drivers for it. You just cannot deny it. It has to. No devices can work without the appropriate drivers. Maybe even Mac OS X install them, but if it does, it does do incredibly fast because the first time I plugged all the four devices mentioned above, each of them was recognised immediately.


----------



## Aberforth (Dec 4, 2006)

My mouse, keyboard and joystick were instantly recognised, it didn't ask for drivers or make me wait at all. I am not talking about Microsoft mouse here.


----------



## aryayush (Dec 4, 2006)

I have yet to come across a single piece of hardware that was instantly connected and ready to use on Windows XP without installing any drivers. Maybe you have used some program like AutoPatcher to disable the balloon tips in Windows XP and therefore, missed the driver installations notifications. Or maybe you are right that it did not need to install drivers for those hardware. But in majority of the cases, it does.


----------



## brutality9k (Dec 4, 2006)

aryayush, u r pawned again




			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> LOL! I might even have believed that had it not been for the fact that W550i does not support memory cards. LOL!
> And yes, I have Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2.


 
you are clearly lying, W550i has 256 MB inbuilt memory not a memory card, which is detected as removable storage in Windows XP SP2, u can simply select it to install drivers, even if u don't have them, it will skip the Modem part & install as the removable storage



> FYI, every sort of hardware you connect to Windows XP (or even Vista) requires the installation of drivers first. If you cancel the process, the device simply won't work. I have tried USB drives, external hard drive, camera and my phone. Nothing works without drivers.
> 
> Or maybe you are right that it did not need to install drivers for that hardware. But in majority of the cases, it does.


 
Something is wrong with your computer for sure, donno, when I connect something in Windows XP SP2/Vista; the drivers are loaded automatically, mostly generic drivers. Sometimes it does ask for drivers on XP/Vista Disk, that’s it.
XP SP2 was released in 2004, there are many devices released after that, everyone will laugh at u, if u say, that the latest device is compatible in Mac when the drivers are not included in Mac, this is how OS for PC works, and they load the drivers when an appropriate is connected. You do one thing, get some new hardware, like scanner, or printer, or something like that & then check, even MacOS asks for drivers. Removable storage are all based on same functioning, a generic drivers works with 90% of such devices

MacOS X is nothing fast in installing drivers, it just loads the generic ones, just like Windows & Linux. U then have the option to install your own new updated drivers. I hope, u don't reply by saying that u can add a new webcam to Macbook & it won't ask for drivers. It is the same with all OS, this is not a point to show your OS as superior


----------



## tarey_g (Dec 4, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> I have yet to come across a single piece of hardware that was instantly connected and ready to use on Windows XP without installing any drivers. Maybe you have used some program like AutoPatcher to disable the balloon tips in Windows XP and therefore, missed the driver installations notifications. Or maybe you are right that it did not need to install drivers for those hardware. But in majority of the cases, it does.



Ya , I guess you are unfortunate to have all the non plug and play devices for XP with you, and they all work with mac. Seems like other users are have fine time connecting their external devices with Xp.


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## brutality9k (Dec 4, 2006)

tarey_g said:
			
		

> Ya , I guess you are unfortunate to have all the non plug and play devices for XP with you, and they all work with mac. Seems like other users are have fine time connecting their external devices with Xp.


 
 i think u r right, he is one unlucky fellow, who gets all the hardware from such companies which work with apple MacOS X only, as plug & play & they don't work with Windows XP at all, via plug & play

seriously aryayush, where do u buy stuff from, i guess only Apple store. On the first page of this thread i saw that u were trying to connect isight in PC, well gr8, isight is apple product, ofcourse it won't work with PC, but since it doesn't its not the fault of apple insted it's the fault of Microsoft according to u


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## Aberforth (Dec 5, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> I have yet to come across a single piece of hardware that was instantly connected and ready to use on Windows XP without installing any drivers. Maybe you have used some program like AutoPatcher to disable the balloon tips in Windows XP and therefore, missed the driver installations notifications. Or maybe you are right that it did not need to install drivers for those hardware. But in majority of the cases, it does.



Well my bandwidth isn't fast enough to download Autopatcher in less than 30 hours so I gave up. Since I never get viruses and spywares or have any such problems, I gave up patching up Windows totally. Maybe the hardware you used are so incompatible that they needed drivers, my logitech keyboard, mouse and joysticks were recognised in a flash not even a secs wait time.


----------



## aryayush (Dec 5, 2006)

WTF is going on here! You guys are basically saying the same thing that I am saying. I said that Windows XP needed to install some drivers when I connected my Sony Ericsson W550i to it the first time while Mac OS X connected it immediately. brutality9k then said that it does not need to install any drivers and that even if you cancel the automatic installation of drivers, it will still be detected as a removable drive. It did not and I posted a screenshot. I did not say that you manually needed to install drivers. They are automatically installed.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> you are clearly lying, W550i has 256 MB inbuilt memory not a memory card


You were the one who posted this:





			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> cos my W550i was detected as a removable drive (just the memory card part)


I never said that it had a memory card. 



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> when I connect something in Windows XP SP2/Vista; the drivers are loaded automatically


Yes, but it takes time to load them and they is what I said. I never said that it did not load the drivers.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> MacOS X is nothing fast in installing drivers, it just loads the generic ones, just like Windows & Linux.


I don't know what it does and I couldn't care less. All I know is that all the four hardware devices I connected to it were recognised in an instant. You have not used a Mac so you do not have any idea of how fast it is.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> seriously aryayush, where do u buy stuff from, i guess only Apple store.


Apple Stores do not sell Sony Ericsson phones, USB drives or Nikon digital cameras.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> On the first page of this thread i saw that u were trying to connect isight in PC, well gr8, isight is apple product, ofcourse it won't work with PC, but since it doesn't its not the fault of apple insted it's the fault of Microsoft according to u


That was a mistake and I accepted it. And I never said anything about it being Microsoft's fault. It's obvious, when you do not have any points to make, you will bring up issues such as a small mistake in an article (for which I already apologised) and non-existent heating problems. 



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> aryayush, u r pawned again


Yeah, I can surely see that! *www.tarmassia.it/muro/emo/smiley-org-rolleyes.gif
You mentioned a point about Apple laptops being 60K expensive than available laptops and then took it back. You said that MacBooks cost 1.3 lacs. And you have yet to prove any of my points wrong. And you have the gall to say that _I am_ pawned - AGAIN! ROTFLMAO! 
Of course, some things I have said might have been wrong, but all of you bsically agree with me that a Macintosh is much better than a PC. You guys have a problem with the pricing, but I don't see any Mac that costs 125% of normal PCs or laptops that cost 60K more than laptops from other companies. In fact, a Sony VAIO which has lower specs than the current gen MacBook Pros, has Windows XP Pro pre-loaded but has a Blu-Ray drive costs 1.9 lacs. I do not see any people saying that Sony is expensive.


----------



## Aberforth (Dec 5, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> But I don't see any Mac that costs 125% of normal PCs or laptops that cost 60K more than laptops from other companies. In fact, a Sony VAIO which has lower specs than the current gen MacBook Pros, has Windows XP Pro pre-loaded but has a Blu-Ray drive costs 1.9 lacs. *I do not see any people saying that Sony is expensive.*





			
				Aberforth said:
			
		

> *The fact is Apple is expensive and charges a high premium just like some Sony Vaio models do and a better OS does not justify such a price in my opinion.* I have tried SuSe Linux 10 and it has much the same features as a Mac OS X maybe with bit and pieces here and there. I don't like the design of Macbook Pro much, it looks plasticly, I'd rather go for a Sony Vaio or Fujitsu Lifebook if I wanted the flaunt value.



You might like to relate the words in bold. 

And a 2.XX GHz IntelCore Duo MacBook pro with ATI Redeon 256 MB grahpics card cost about 130000 when you get the same/similarly close configuration from dell for not more than Rs.90000/-. I include specs like 120 GB HDD, Bluetooth, preloaded Windows XP Pro, etc.


----------



## aryayush (Dec 5, 2006)

It is Intel Core 2 Duo, not Core Duo.
__________
*img96.imageshack.us/img96/5488/01425sz1i12848900hv1.jpg​These are the specs of the *Apple MacBook Pro 17-inch: 2.33GHz (MA611LL/A)*:





> *Display*: 17-inch (diagonal), 1680 x 1050 resolution, TFT widescreen
> *Processor*: 2.33GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
> *Memory*: 2GB (two SO-DIMMs) 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM (PC2-5300)
> *PCI Express graphics*: ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 with 256MB of GDDR3 SDRAM and dual-link DVI
> ...



*img300.imageshack.us/img300/3346/m651sc6.jpg​And these are the specs of *N621624 Dell Precision M65*:





> *Display*: 15.4" Wide Aspect Ultrasharp(TM) UXGA (1920x1200) TFT Display
> *Processor*: Dell Precision(TM) Intel(R) Core(TM) 2 Duo Processor T7600 (2.33GHz)
> *Memory*: 2GB (2x1GB) 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM
> *PCI Express graphics*: NVIDIA(R) Quadro(R) FX 350M 512MB TurboCache
> ...



The underlined features are where the notebook in question tops the other one.

As you can see, Apple offers a larger screen, FireWire 400 and 800 ports, camera, DVI to VGA adapter, microphone, remote (and infra-red port), illuminated keyboard (with light sensors), scrolling trackpad (supports two-finger scrolling and double-tab capabilities), MagSafe power adapter, motion sensor and 60 additional days of phone support with the product (fourteen extra features).
Dell, on the other hand, provides a better resolution (at which you probably won't be able to read any text on the smaller screen), better graphics card, modem cable, palmrest and two additional years of mechanical support (five extra features).
In comparison, the MacBook pro looks sexier and is thinner and lighter. Both feature approximately the same price with the MacBook Pro being slighly cheaper (Rs. 1,29,999 + tax) than the Inspiron M65 (Rs 1,37,593 + tax).

And that was just the hardware. Including the software takes the Mac on a whole new plane rightaway.


Aberforth, Dell (apart from Sony) was the worst company you could choose to compare with Apple. They have no better pricing. HP, perhaps, would come in a bit cheaper, but it would still not be a large difference.

If you want proof of the above specs, here's the screenshot from Dell's official website:
*img206.imageshack.us/img206/2218/picture2vz5.th.png

It is a shame that though there are so many supporters for PCs and laptops from other companies out here, no one is actually posting anything concrete with proof. Everyone is just posting their opinions around.
And you guys call us, Mac users, fanboys!


----------



## praka123 (Dec 5, 2006)

Macintosh Computers are definitely ahead of M$ Windows,I've watched for myself their demo.With UNIX based OS under the hood,How can you compare MAC with Windows!Compare it with other better OS's like Linux!.


----------



## mediator (Dec 5, 2006)

woooow design of that dell laptop looks great. Compared to that the mac book's design is looking pathetic.


----------



## aryayush (Dec 5, 2006)

You are not really serious, are you! 

I mean, I know these things are supposed to be subjective but calling the Dell laptop's design in the given picture superior to the MacBook Pro's design is... well, LOL!


----------



## mediator (Dec 5, 2006)

May be according to u, but I find it amazing. Dell one got great flaunt value. U may not like that, but flaunt value in a hardware design shud be high according to me. 

Neways who needs 17 inch screen man? Tomorow a 23 and then 45 inch screen may come on laptop, will u buy that? 15 inch is more than enough for me and a lotta users.


----------



## brutality9k (Dec 5, 2006)

check this out 

*www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/xpsnb_m2010?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&~section=specs#tabtop


----------



## aryayush (Dec 5, 2006)

Here are a few (lot?) more screenshots:

A HUGE one:

*img151.imageshack.us/img151/733/macbookpro17pfopenprintpx1.th.jpg​
Others:
*img156.imageshack.us/img156/2894/indextop20061024hy6.th.jpg *img243.imageshack.us/img243/7139/indexfrontrow20061024bk4.th.png *img243.imageshack.us/img243/4640/macbookpro0220061024ain5.th.jpg *img156.imageshack.us/img156/1170/macbookpro0120061024mn2.th.jpg *img329.imageshack.us/img329/2834/macbookpro0420061024zc0.th.jpg *img329.imageshack.us/img329/1619/macbookpro0020061024cy9.th.jpg *img300.imageshack.us/img300/8591/inteltop20061024ov7.th.jpg *img88.imageshack.us/img88/9711/isighttop20061024qb5.th.jpg *img88.imageshack.us/img88/5527/designtopimagecenter200tt0.th.jpg *img81.imageshack.us/img81/542/designtopimageleft20061lv1.th.jpg *img81.imageshack.us/img81/4504/designtopimageright2006hu5.th.jpg *img243.imageshack.us/img243/8881/indexmagplug20061024yz7.th.png *img151.imageshack.us/img151/8780/wirelesstop20061024ro6.th.jpg *img151.imageshack.us/img151/5079/whatsinsidekeyboard2006zk8.jpg


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## aryayush (Dec 5, 2006)

mediator said:
			
		

> Dell one got great flaunt value. U may not like that, but flaunt value in a hardware design shud be high according to me.


Uh? And Apple products haven't got greater flaunt value! That is right on top of the ridiculous comments list. You were the one, along with several other people such as gxsaurav, who were saying that Apple has just got loads of flaunt value and is priced very expensive just because of that. Now, when I proved that Apple products are not unreasonably priced, you say that it does not have flaunt value. How come flaunt value suddenly became so important for you anyway! Right through that 'Mac vs. Linux' discussion, you were saying that you could not care less about how cool the Mac Mini was or how sexy Apple's computers looked.
And even if you leave aside all that, you are actually saying here that Dell Inspiron M65 has more of a flaunt value when compared to Apple MacBook Pro. LOL! My MacBook Pro is such a people (and kids) magnet, that it has become a huge problem for me. If you had said the same thing about Dell's XPS series, I would have had no problem with the statement. But the Inspiron in that picture... 



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> Well, yeah arya, everything white looks good, & everything black is bad


MacBooks come in black too and they look awesome!



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> apple is good thats it


Yeah, I know that. Thanks for reminding again though!



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> now go sing everywhere


That is pure desperation. What happened to all your tall claims! All you have been doing is posting such useless statements, which have no relation to the debate going on.

BTW, you sound awfully familiar to gxsaurav (but he is saner and does make some valid points sometimes), and you made an appearance here just after he was suspended for a week and made your first post in this topic supporting his viewpoint. Could you be gxsaurav himself with a different alias to get around the suspension?


----------



## krazyfrog (Dec 5, 2006)

Someone please change the title of this thread. Its totally misleading! Change it something more fitting like 'Mac v/s Windows' or 'Aryayush v/s Rest of the forum' or something to that effect!


----------



## GeekyBoy (Dec 5, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> It is Intel Core 2 Duo, not Core Duo.



It is Core Duo. Core 2 Duo is for desktops


----------



## brutality9k (Dec 5, 2006)

krazyfrog said:
			
		

> 'Mac v/s Windows' or 'Aryayush v/s Rest of the forum' or something to that effect!


 
It started as PC vs. Mac (hardware) Arya was pawned on the first page itself. But he deviated it to MacOS X & Windows, yet again; he was pawned cos MacOS X is limited to their own hardware which he finds a good thing  

Then, when windows users gave him reason, he said, we are lying, said features don't exist, when we gave him prove he said "sorry, I didn't know" like he did in other threads too

Digitadmin said us to shut up, & use whatever we like.....well, for a while, Windows users went silent, & Arya provoked again, tell me, do u get paid by apple to post like this, 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> when I proved that Apple products are not unreasonably priced, you say that it does not have flaunt value


 
Here is the thing, a similar configured PC Laptop, will cost 70k in manufacturing, just like a Apple Macbook, add to this the cost of the OS, development, profit & rest, & still what u get is a PC Laptop of no more than Rs 1.1 lakh (at maximum price), still he got pawned but since he cannot accept the fact that apple is defeated, he is fighting back for no reason. U didn't prove anything, U yourself said, it's nothing wrong with apple charging 10k for a sexy laptop, , 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> And even if you leave aside all that, you are actually saying here that Dell Inspiron M65 has more of a flaunt value when compared to Apple MacBook Pro. LOL! My MacBook Pro is such a people (and kids) magnet, that it has become a huge problem for me. If you had said the same thing about Dell's XPS series, I would have had no problem with the statement. But the Inspiron in that picture..


 
Ok, this is subjective, People are attracted to both, be it white or black, u like white, we like black, some people like smooth finish, some like rugged, some like professional looks



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Neways who needs 17 inch screen man? Tomorow a 23 and then 45 inch screen may come on laptop, will u buy that? 15 inch is more than enough for me and a lotta users


 
Yeah u r right, even I would say that. A notebook is supposed to be small, 17" is too big, even 12" is better for a mobile use



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Video: Built-in iSight camera, DVI, VGA (DVI to VGA adapter included)


 
Built in camera are also an option in dell inspiron, but a intelligent buyer will not include this for Rs 2000 approx. extra, a cam which cannot move on its own, & needs the monitor to be moved along with it, webcams cost as low as Rs 600, but then again, u don’t even have an option not to chose it & reduce the cost unlike PC laptops. VGA adapters, well, ever seen a PC Laptop? They have them from 1997, even before that.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Combined optical digital input/audio line in, combined optical digital output/headphone out, stereo speakers, microphone


 
U call this a superior feature  , it's been on PC Laptops from ages. u seriously need to know something about laptops, apple don't even have option for 24bit audio in Mac/Macbook, & still u were saying apple users get the latest technology first



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Apple Remote; full-size, illuminated keyboard with ambient light sensor; scrolling trackpad



 A keyboard is a keyboard, is a keyboard....well, since I guess just like those animation effects written above this also has a purpose superior to PC counterparts



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Could you be gxsaurav himself with a different alias to get around the suspension?


 
I don't need to be someone else to post what I think



			
				prakash kerala said:
			
		

> Macintosh Computers are definitely ahead of M$ Windows, I’ve watched for myself their demo.With UNIX based OS under the hood,How can you compare MAC with Windows!Compare it with other better OS's like Linux!.


 
Well, there was another thread running which was closed by the mods. Besides, this thread like I said above, started as a PC vs. Mac (hardware) thread, which he deviated to software



			
				GeekyBoy said:
			
		

> It is Core Duo. Core 2 Duo is for desktops


 
No, core 2 duo is also for Laptops now. It a mobile version of Core 2 duo.


----------



## krazyfrog (Dec 5, 2006)

I think this thread be closed by now. There is no point in continuing further. This thread started out good and was very informative for quiet a few of us but ended up being messy with lots of mud-slinging and personal remarks and two good members actually being suspended. If this continues there's no telling how many more will get 'miserabled'.
There is no point in changing others point of view, no matter how beautiful you think your viewpoint is. If you can't beat them, either join them or forget about them! 
Also it seems the only one supporting Mac side is Aryayush alone. While apparently the whole forum is supporting windows. Quiet an unfair fight this is!
So my suggestion to supporters of both side is to like what you use but have some respect for the other party. Windows users need not disgrace Mac and the same applies to Mac users.
So my requests to mods is to close this thread as soon as possible. It has served its purpose.


----------



## mediator (Dec 5, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> Uh? And Apple products haven't got greater flaunt value! That is right on top of the ridiculous comments list. *You were the one, along with several other people such as gxsaurav, who were saying that Apple has just got loads of flaunt value and is priced very expensive just because of that.* Now, when I proved that Apple products are not unreasonably priced, you say that it does not have flaunt value. *How come flaunt value suddenly became so important for you anyway! Right through that 'Mac vs. Linux' discussion, you were saying that you could not care less about how cool the Mac Mini was or how sexy Apple's computers looked.*
> And even if you leave aside all that, you are actually saying here that Dell Inspiron M65 has more of a flaunt value when compared to Apple MacBook Pro. LOL! *My MacBook Pro is such a people (and kids) magnet, that it has become a huge problem for me. If you had said the same thing about Dell's XPS series, I would have had no problem with the statement.* But the Inspiron in that picture...


@Arya.....Ur not only a fanboy but also very amusing. Please quote if I stated as highlighted (first part). As I said tons of times before that I know nothing about Mac OS and Apple products, but only echoed what u said. Proofs!

The *Mac Vs Linux* thread was not only enlightening but also dissapointed me of ur exaggeration about Mac. I'm lucky enough to be enlightened here about Mac's miserable UI, as u enlightened me about it thoroughly.

About ridiculosness, everyone here I see is only mocking u of ur misery that is generated only when u become a fanboy. Everyone here knows who is making ridiculous statements. As I stated tons of times that fanboyism mentally retards everyone and fails em to see light and think properly.

About unreasonable pricing, its OS I guess is unreasonably priced tooo. They not only charge u highly for its products,OS but also extract huge amount of money from u in MAC OS upgrade as u told in that Linux Vs MAc thread. So it seems ur proof is quite contradictory.

Also u posted nice specs of Mac, but who needs that specs anyways when u can't play hifi games like on windows?? U only said in that Mac vs Linux thread when I posted UI/eyecandy of Linux from various sources that most of the eyecandy serve no purpose. So why did u buy Mac with that hifi specs?? Just for ease?? Are u that rich or just foolish??

Do u even use these hifi features?? Its like buying a hifi cellphone and only using its MP3 player and camera and then going all the way blablabla about it. 

Ok now about second highlighted part. Thats correct I care less about flaunt value, but if u read it correctly without ur fanboyism then u will see that *I restricted it to Operating SYstem*. I dont care if one OS has less UI and eye candy though I found later in same thread that Linux has greater eyecandy than Mac. I know u'll ridicule this statements as well or say funny/lol for it coz thats the only thing left for u to say. I was terribly dissapointed in desktop comparisons in that thread and found Mac much inferior to Linux in UI and eyecandy comparisons toooo. "Tooooo" means it(Mac) is closed source also. So I dont care in desktop part though Linux rulezz now in UI/eyecandy department. I was also very dissapointed that it(mac) doesn't have extra window managers. What a waste of money!!! Ur welcome to ridicule this as well. I suare I wont be surprised! 
So what I said about flaunt value was restricted to OS, but I always liked flaunt value in hardwares. I hope u know the difference between an OS and a hardware atleast or only the things marked in bold act as an eye opener for u??

About the third highlighted part, r u telling that to urself and having a false feeling of happiness????

The first picture u posted of MAc book (3D pic) in ample lighting conditions was more than enough to show everyone how pathetic it is looking. I'm sure kids aren't that stupid to hug that pathetically designed piece. And then u posted (2D) pics in dark. U showed those latter inferior 2d pics in dark to prove ur word about flaunt value?? What a misery!!

And about Dell I have seen many models of em online and simply just luuuvv em. Dell got the style!!

Neways arya u may defeat Steve Balmer in his real skills.


----------



## aryayush (Dec 5, 2006)

brutality9k said:
			
		

> It started as PC vs. Mac (hardware) Arya was pawned on the first page itself. But he deviated it to MacOS X & Windows, yet again; he was pawned cos MacOS X is limited to their own hardware which he finds a good thing


Yes, because I realised that a Mac is not just about the hardware or the software, it is about the integration of the two. I was never 'pawned' anywhere and I DID accept that upgadeability was a definite strong point of PCs. But since I am not the type who spends on upgrading his computer every year or so, I much prefer one that is superior to other computers and is reasonably future-proof. Plus, I am done with Windows crap.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> Then, when windows users gave him reason, he said, we are lying, said features don't exist


That never ever happened. Please do quote if you feel the need to do so!


			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> when we gave him prove he said "sorry, I didn't know" like he did in other threads too


That happened just once and I am proud of the fact that I am not narrow-minded like you and can accept it if I make a mistake.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> Digitadmin said us to shut up, & use whatever we like.....well, for a while, Windows users went silent, & Arya provoked again, tell me, do u get paid by apple to post like this,


And do you get paid by Microsoft and Dell for defending them!



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> Here is the thing, a similar configured PC Laptop, will cost 70k in manufacturing, just like a Apple Macbook, add to this the cost of the OS, development, profit & rest, & still what u get is a PC Laptop of no more than Rs 1.1 lakh (at maximum price)


I have yet to see any proof of that. Aberforth put forward his points and I replied back with conclusive proof that the same configuration from Dell is actually a shade more expensive than Apple. Even I was surprised by that. I also posted a screenshot for doubting Thomases like you.





			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> still he got pawned but since he cannot accept the fact that apple is defeated, he is fighting back for no reason. U didn't prove anything, U yourself said, it's nothing wrong with apple charging 10k for a sexy laptop, wow, gr8 thinking & wallet u got man, but not us, we use our mind when buying something & we do not talk of the white side


I said this:





			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Yes, you may get a similarly configured laptop for maybe 120K, but it is completely justified that Apple charges 10K extra for making the sexiest and lightest laptop in its class with one of the brightest displays available in the market, a beautiful backlit keyboard, on-board sudden motion sensors, a much better operating system than Windows crap and a host of professional quality bundled software.


I did not say that it was OK to charge 10K extra just for better looks. Don't you realise that it is very easy to quote from past posts in a forum? Quit lying around, man. 



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> Ok, this is subjective, People are attracted to both, be it white or black, u like white, we like black, some people like smooth finish, some like rugged, some like professional looks


It is not just about a better case. There is a fundamental difference between design and decor. No other company puts a magnetic connection on the power port so that the laptop does not fall to the ground when someone trips on the power cord (and it also makes plugging the cord a snap and prevents it from wearing out quickly), status indicators on the battery and magnetic latches to ensure that it is closed firmly and effortlessly. You'll realise the convenience of the light sensor and backlit keyboard when you use it in the dark. There is no rubber button (that anyone can easily press) for making the notebook sleep. There are no stickers on the notebook. So much of horsepower is packed into a 1-inch thin frame. Plus, it looks elegant and classy. It is perfect for both a business environment and for funkier purposes. Honestly, I cannot believe that you guys are questioning Apple's designing! _digit_ (or it might have been _PC World_) described the XBOX 360's cool looks by saying that it looked like something designed by Apple.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> Yeah u r right, even I would say that. A notebook is supposed to be small, 17" is too big, even 12" is better for a mobile use


Apple laptops come in 13-inch, 15-inch and 17-inch configurations. Suit yourselves. I wanted a 17-incher and I bought it.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> Built in camera are also an option in dell inspiron


It is not. I posted a screenshot, just have a look at it before posting such ignorant posts, for God's sake!



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> U call this a superior feature  , it's been on PC Laptops from ages. u seriously need to know something about laptops


Yes, it has been on PC laptops since ages and I never questioned that. But you cannot have a microphone on a Dell Inspiron M65. At least, it is not an option on Dell's website.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> A keyboard is a keyboard


Of course, when you do not have the option of a backlit keyboard, this is the only thing you can say.  Even if your mobile wouldn't have had a backlit keypad, you would have said, "a keypad is a keypad"! 



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> Well, there was another thread running which was closed by the mods. Besides, this thread like I said above, started as a PC vs. Mac (hardware) thread, which he deviated to software


So, what is the problem with that. I wanted to discuss everything. You neither have points to defend in the software department nor the hardware one. You are just... I don't even know what you are trying to do. PCs have only two things going for them: a) The individual parts can be upgraded; and b) when you pop in a pirated version of Windows XP and other pirated software for security, CD/DVD burning, etc., it becomes a lot cheaper. But on a laptop, you even do not have those points to make, so all you can do is flame me meaninglessly.



			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> Well, this is it for today, I have spent a lot of time on this thread, they tell me arya, u got a job or something, just curious, cos u post here all day, how much free time u got? Or is it that posting for Mac is your job, a part of viral marketing, cos I have seen macboys all over the net, they post the same thing. Even if not asked or welcomed, if there is a new thread for say, Windows aero & we are discussing, u guys jump in & say, Mac looks gr8 with  Quartz, when we never asked your opinion, or if there is a news that there is a new fix or feature in Windows, u jump & say, it’s been on Mac for ages. Looks exactly like viral marketing


This is totally off-topic and does not contribute to the discussion in any way. You do not need to post when you don't have anything to say. You say that Mac users jump into threads, I don't see anyone inviting you to this thread either!
__________


			
				mediator said:
			
		

> @Arya.....Ur not only a fanboy but also very amusing. Please quote if I stated as highlighted (first part). As I said tons of times before that I know nothing about Mac OS and Apple products, but only echoed what u said. Proofs!
> 
> The *Mac Vs Linux* thread was not only enlightening but also dissapointed me of ur exaggeration about Mac. I'm lucky enough to be enlightened here about Mac's miserable UI, as u enlightened me about it thoroughly.
> 
> ...


A totally opinionated and useless post. The whole post contains no facts, just your opinions which are derived from other people's opinions. What a waste of space!
You have never even seen a Mac in reality, leave aside using it and you suddenly know everthing about Macs from the opinions you have formed out of seeing the screenshots posted by me and mail2and. I said it does not have transparency but you could enable it if you wanted it and you start saying things like "oh, it does not have transparency, what a terrible UI. mah linux has transparency, it is very productive becuase I can see behind the windows I am supposed to be working on!" And you totally ignored the points that I made about Mac OS that linux did not have such as spring loaded folders and hot corners. After a few posts have passed and the topic is forgotten, you start saying that I has mislead you and told you something else about the UI and mail2and is saying something else - and therefore, the Mac UI is bad. The Mac UI seems bad to you because you are trying to understand it from forum posts.
If you were so keen to learn about it, as you have been insisting, you would have heeded my advice and actually gone out and tested it. But no, you have no such desire. You are just a linux fanboy and an extremely rigid person. You spent twenty posts arguing what the dictionary definition of end-users experience was, giving situation specific examples to support what was already a ridiculous comment.
To top that off, you say that you find the MacBook Pro's design 'pathetic'. I think you wore your glasses behind your head when you saw its picture. You are saying that an equisite and intelligently designed product from a company which has set unrivaled precedents in hardware and software design is 'pathetic'.

I posted so many screenshots later to help you out, not to prove that it had a superior design. I do not need to prove it. Two people saying that they find it's poorly design does not actually make it so, and I couldn't care less about your single-track opinions anyway.
BTW, do you know what 2D and 3D is? Those were actual photographs of the product and photographs can never be two dimensional.  And there were plenty of photos in well-lit conditions too (specially the huge one).

You do not like Mac OS? OK, fine. Don't use it and stop discussing it. I bought a product and I found it to be much better than my PC and thought of discussing the pros and cons here. But I guess I should have listened to mail2and's advice. Not one person who spoke against the Macintosh is this thread has actually used it (except gxsaurav, who says he used it in the Mac OS 9 days - how fair is it to bring Windows 98's experience into today's discussion), but everone has formed opinions about it. Keep it up. Use your own opinion based on others' comments and never bother actually trying out a product before passing judgement on it. That's a good modus operandi - keeps you from discovering something good even by accident and thus helps avoid buyer's remorse!

If someone has something remotely intelligible to say, please do so but the purpose of this topic was not to flame people around so refrain from doing so. And mods might want to close this thread because people do not seem to want to discuss the pros and cons of both systems. We are only disussing non-existent cons of the Macintosh because the majority is against it. 
__________


			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> a cam which cannot move on its own, & needs the monitor to be moved along with it, webcams cost as low as Rs 600


A webcam is not meant to take the pictures of your son learning to walk or your pet performing a trick. It is supposed to show your live picture to the person you are chatting to, an activity which requires you to sit in front of the monitor - unless, of course, you type with your toes (and given your wierd posts, I wouldn't be srprised if that were indeed the case).
And anyway, you can always connect that 600 rupees webcam to a MacBook Pro if you want to record a video of yourself dancing to the tune of "I'm a Barbie girl"!

Plus, a bundled software 'Image Capture' allows you to connect any digital camera and use it as a webcam. So you can even have a 10-megapixel webcam and it can move around as much as the USB cable would allow it to - for whatever purpose you might need it.


----------



## mediator (Dec 6, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> A totally opinionated and useless post. The whole post contains no facts, just your opinions which are derived from other people's opinions. What a waste of space!


Sure, everyone can see who is making useless and opinionated post. Ur not only unstabilising digit's mysql's database, but also wasting ur time showing how pathetic Mac is. I got enlightened enough and ur over exaggeration dissapointed me.

Yea I echoed earlier what u said and was not able to form opinion about Mac,but now I can make my own opinions. What a waste of money.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> You have never even seen a Mac in reality, leave aside using it and you suddenly know everthing about Macs from the opinions you have formed out of seeing the screenshots posted by me and mail2and. I said it does not have transparency but you could enable it if you wanted it and you start saying things like "oh, it does not have transparency, what a terrible UI. mah linux has transparency, it is very productive becuase I can see behind the windows I am supposed to be working on!" And you totally ignored the points that I made about Mac OS that linux did not have such as spring loaded folders and hot corners. After a few posts have passed and the topic is forgotten, you start saying that I has mislead you and told you something else about the UI and mail2and is saying something else - and therefore, the Mac UI is bad. The Mac UI seems bad to you because you are trying to understand it from forum posts.
> If you were so keen to learn about it, as you have been insisting, you would have heeded my advice and actually gone out and tested it. But no, you have no such desire. You are just a linux fanboy and an extremely rigid person. You spent twenty posts arguing what the dictionary definition of end-users experience was, giving situation specific examples to support what was already a ridiculous comment.


I urged u to post the best screenshots that Mac can have, but then screenshots u posted were disspointing. Is it hard to accept?? 
As I stated before that I was acting as an observer to know more about Mac, if u can open 2 useless threads about Mac then u should convince others how good mac is, but the only thing u did is radiated how pathetic its UI and eye candy is and how foolish it is to buy expensive stuff that can't even play nice/hifi games and don't even have extra window managers etc. What a waste.
So if u can open 2 threads about Mac with such a confidence, then why not get enlightened from the forum itself?? Ur quite exaggerating but not convincing enough.

And about end-users I guess u still didn't read the books I refereed u or u wont be saying such miserable things again n again n again demoralising everyone to their lowest.

Also before calling me a Linux fanboy, lemme tell u I use windows, BSD, terminal UNIX toooooo and keep finding the ways which make computing efficient. Also I openly declare that at present Linux is inferior in gaming area as compared to windows. Now, that declaration is quite contradicting to the definition of fanboy. I hope u know atleast the definition of fanboy or else google is awating u! 




			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> To top that off, you say that you find the MacBook Pro's design 'pathetic'. I think you wore your glasses behind your head when you saw its picture. You are saying that an equisite and intelligently designed product from a company which has set unrivaled precedents in hardware and software design is 'pathetic'.


Getting frenzied just becoz someone glimpsed at MacBook's design and marked it as pathetic? Dont u even know the meaning of flaunt and first impressions?? That MacBook made a terrible first impression on my mind, how can u even flaunt it?? 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> I posted so many screenshots later to help you out, not to prove that it had a superior design. I do not need to prove it. Two people saying that they find it's poorly design does not actually make it so, and I couldn't care less about your single-track opinions anyway.
> *BTW, do you know what 2D and 3D is?* Those were actual photographs of the product and photographs can never be two dimensional. And there were plenty of photos in well-lit conditions too (specially the huge one).


Telling an ED(Enginering Drawing) student the concepts of 2D and 3D??  How miserable can u get?



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> You do not like Mac OS? OK, fine. Don't use it and stop discussing it. I bought a product and I found it to be much better than my PC and thought of discussing the pros and cons here. But I guess I should have listened to mail2and's advice. Not one person who spoke against the Macintosh is this thread has actually used it (except gxsaurav, who says he used it in the Mac OS 9 days - how fair is it to bring Windows 98's experience into today's discussion), but everone has formed opinions about it. Keep it up. Use your own opinion based on others' comments and never bother actually trying out a product before passing judgement on it. That's a good modus operandi - keeps you from discovering something good even by accident and thus helps avoid buyer's remorse!


Yea I'll never use such trash that has such a huge cost and cant even play games. Will u ask to use parallels here now?? Gimme a break! Thanx for enough Mac's enlightenments. I'm lucky not to be wasting my money on it.
And yes u shud listen to advices be it @andy's or @digitadmin's.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> If someone has something remotely intelligible to say, please do so but the purpose of this topic was not to flame people around so refrain from doing so. And mods might want to close this thread because people do not seem to want to discuss the pros and cons of both systems. We are only disussing *non-existent* cons of the Macintosh because the majority is against it.


Dude, How many cons will u take to change it from non-existent to existent?? 

So I hope u listen to @andy's and @digitadmin's advice and stop giving Steve Balmer a run for his money and skills.


----------



## brutality9k (Dec 6, 2006)

aryayush

Neither u gave a valid point why we should switch to Mac, nor do u have any relevent fact to give. U are yourself saying things which u refused in that past, now i m toooo lazy to go back & quote u again.



> Yes, you may get a similarly configured laptop for maybe 120K, but it is completely justified that Apple charges 10K extra for making the sexiest and lightest laptop in its class with





> did not say that it was OK to charge 10K extra just for better looks



then what else were u saying in these lines, go take english classes, u r not even accepting what u said before....first u said, it's justified that they charge 10k for looks, now u r saying u never said anything like that 

Meditator, u r an ED student, Cool.........what do u study in it,  autocad or Solid works or something else?


----------



## FatBeing (Dec 6, 2006)

I'm seeing personal remarks again. Since I don't have the patience to read through your long rants, please read and edit your posts accordingly - this applies to all who have posted after my last warning.

You have until Thursday afternoon, after which the banning shall begin.


----------



## brutality9k (Dec 6, 2006)

edited. is there anything else left other then just the tech part?


----------



## mediator (Dec 6, 2006)

Sir Nimish , I have not seen anyone here flaming and making personal comments after ur last warning. I hope calling someone a "fanboy" is not counted in flames coz even @digitadmin or @raaabo used it for @andy in here itself.

@brutality.....yea I used to be an ED student in 11th and 12th. Yea its a very cool and amazing field that really sharpens ur thinking and visualization. Though in skools they dont teach u autocad or software tools that u might be thinking, but they make u do all the work on drawing sheets that are large enough to cover the whole computer table. But I have used autocad. Its a powerful tool with high system requirements.

The teaching of the tool part is in colleges when u take ME (Mechanical Engineering), B.Arch(architecture), designing etc. Architecture is a nice field, but doesn't have good opportunites in India. I got 22 rank in AIEEE examinations in architecture, but instead refused it simply becoz of same reason. If u take architecture u have to work very very hard if u want a good job or plan to work outside India. Atleast thats what I gathered from professional sources.


----------



## Aberforth (Dec 6, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> *It is Intel Core 2 Duo, not Core Duo.*
> 
> *Aberforth, Dell (apart from Sony) was the worst company you could choose to compare with Apple. They have no better pricing. HP, perhaps, would come in a bit cheaper, but it would still not be a large difference.*
> 
> ...



First point, it was Intel Core Duo, not Core 2 when I purchased my laptop.

Second, maybe I am wrong if what you say now are correct. 

For those who think the choice of a PC notebook over Mac is mental.
I would add I liked the idea of MacBook (not pro) for a while. My girlfriend got a MacBook (white) from USA for 1100 dollars. It had a 14 inch screen, Mac OSX and Windows XP loaded, Intel Core Duo 1.86 GHz CPU, 512 MB RAM, Integrated Intel GMA graphics card. I installed MS Flight Simulator 2004 with dynamic scenery and highest settings in MacBook and the game did not perform well, the framerate lingered around 5 - 10 though it performed well at lower settings and the sound sucked. I checked HP Pavilion dv5118tx which had 1.6 GHz IntelCore Duo, 1GB RAM, nVidia GeForce Go with 256 MB video RAM and the framerate laingered at 25 - 35 with occastional bursts of 50 at the highest settings. Unfortunately I had no way to physically test or touch a Dell Latitude 620 (the reason I didn't buy it) but with a similar configuration as the HP I tested it cost Rs. 87000/- which I guessed was fair as performance would have been close but maybe a bit pricey. The MacBook my girlfriend had was not available in India but a close was available at 1.73 GHz for about Rs.96000/- which coupled with 512 MB of RAM, the design (I didn't like it at all) and no dedicated graphics is too pricey in my opinion. The MacBook Pros' were in the Rs. 130000/- band so I took them out of the league. By the time I settled for a notebook HP Pavilion dv5200tx with IntelCore Duo T2250 @ 1.73 GHz (rest same as above) came out so I settled for it for Rs.64000/-

Some would say I did not examine other 'finer points' but for me it didn't matter. What mattered for me is a good laptop I can work on and play my favourite games when I want without hassles or hardward issues. I didn't want video cam or 1234 other features which seemed better for they did not matter and I am not wearing a laptop as a jewellery to show off that I pay more for specs I don't need. I could get extra accessories like driving wheel, joystick, keyboards for far cheaper rates than Apple if I want, from Logitech which made my choice stronger.

Now coming to third point I would not be offended being called a fanboy if I were you. I would rather call myself a Windows fanboy as, as much as I hate Microsoft for its pricing of Windows, I will always use Windows for its game compatibility and wide choice of hardware. I do not mind the Mac users as they have their own reasons for their choice like I did have mine. Mac OS looks great, feels great, good for video and graphics editing perhaps, maybe the reason why my girlfriend chose it. I certainly did not start an argument or write articles commenting her 'bad taste' which I think it isn't, again considering her choice. 

By the way if I really miss that cool aqua look I could always get Open Suse 10.1 which is as great as far as I've seen or a Fedora 6.0 (after they've ironed the innumerable bugs out). I wouldn't think my choice of OS would affect my sanity or happiness as I have much more things to concern about than cry over a machine. Making a mud slinging campaign over OS war is a sign of insanity in fact.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> woooow design of that dell laptop looks great. Compared to that the mac book's design is looking pathetic.



Agreed. Happy at least one person here agrees. I really think Apple ought to give more choices in the design front, I hate MacBooks design and so do many of my friends. If I could physically check out Dell I would have purchased it, even for its higher price as the design is superb. So goes for Sony and Fijitsu (marred by their high price/performance ratio).



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> You are not really serious, are you!
> 
> I mean, I know these things are supposed to be subjective but calling the Dell laptop's design in the given picture superior to the MacBook Pro's design is... well, LOL!



That is something I dislike. Hammering someone elses' opinion with yours is not a good idea. It seems if you had your way you would kill non-mac users for their choice.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> That never ever happened. Please do quote if you feel the need to do so!



What about the post I made before about Windows instantly recognising my hkeyboard, mouse and joysticks without wait time, you wouldn't agree.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> I cannot believe that you guys are questioning Apple's designing! digit (or it might have been PC World) described the XBOX 360's cool looks by saying that it looked like something designed by Apple.



Believe it or not, digit is not an authority on design. It is a person's choice again, what they like no use making fun of someone for this choice. XBox does look on the leagues of MacBook, iPod, etc. because of its whitish looks. I don't hate all of Apple's design, iPod Nano looks much better than other players around. 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> PCs have only two things going for them: a) The individual parts can be upgraded; and b) when you pop in a pirated version of Windows XP and other pirated software for security, CD/DVD burning, etc., it becomes a lot cheaper. But on a laptop, you even do not have those points to make, so all you can do is flame me meaninglessly.



I prefer a full sized keyboard rather than a combo keyboard of Laptop so I have this choice to attach one when I'm home. I like normal handheld mouse rather than trackpad so I carry a small one. If i were to get these from Apple instead of Logitech they would have cost me a bomb. My Sony Ericsson PC Suite software installs only on Windows and so does my new favourite game, GTA San Andreas.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> BTW, do you know what 2D and 3D is? Those were actual photographs of the product and photographs can never be two dimensional. And there were plenty of photos in well-lit conditions too (specially the huge one).



Photographs can never be 3D, they are laways 2D. Only Holographs so far have 3D capability.


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## brutality9k (Dec 6, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> BTW, do you know what 2D and 3D is? Those were actual photographs of the product and *photographs can never be two dimensional*. And there were plenty of photos in well-lit conditions too (specially the huge one).



I m gonna shoot KY (CEO of nvidia) if u again talk something about graphics 

Lolz....yeah, i guess that clearly states weather u were taking part here, in your fanboyism or as a forum membar

No one has any idea, weather the images u showed are 3D Studio renders, or photographs, how do u know? did apple photographers told u that


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## aryayush (Dec 6, 2006)

@Aberforth: I was waiting for your reply. It seems you are the only person here who speaks to the point and makes sensible posts. I've added a rep. 

Why you bought your HP notebook is your concern and I respect that. And HP's notebooks are the cheapest when it comes to a comparison of price across all major brands. So, just comparing it to Apple and saying that it is very expensive does not make sense. Acer, Dell, Sony, etc. all are more expensive than HP.
Apple's prices keep falling and I showed with proof that Apple's hardware is almost equally priced with Dell. And as I mentioned, Sony's VAIO range is actually more expensive.

Mac users get offended on being called fanboys because whenever a Mac user posts their pro-Mac comments on any online discussion, all the PC users go crazy and start flaming them as fanboys. It's unnerving. But you are right. I myself did mention a couple of times that I could see no problem in being a fan of a platform I considered better.

And I do agree that there are better choices out there if you want a computer for gaming and a Mac is not the ideal choice, specially on a tight budget. So, even I wouldn't recommend it for the purpose.



			
				Aberforth said:
			
		

> That is something I dislike. Hammering someone elses' opinion with yours is not a good idea. It seems if you had your way you would kill non-mac users for their choice.


If the same comment had been posted by a person like you or tech_your_future, you would have seen a much better reply from me. The temperament varies from person-to-person. When the whole world is praising the design of Apple products, you come up here and say that it is 'pathetic' and do not expect to get a nasty reply? Maybe you, as a person who uses computers for doing his job and getting done with it, might not feel strongly about your possessions but I, a person totally devoted to anything to do with technology, do. That reply was meant for a person who defended the comparably tough installation precedure (specially the partition) of Linux by saying that it was not a part of the experience of the end-user and then frustrated the hell out of me explaining me the dictionary definitions of 'system administrator' and 'network manager' and whatnot! Since he is a guy who said rude things about my parents, I have no business showing any respect to him. The fact that I am refraining from flaming him personally reflects my tolerance levels, IMHO.



			
				Aberforth said:
			
		

> What about the post I made before about Windows instantly recognising my hkeyboard, mouse and joysticks without wait time, you wouldn't agree.


Because I have never experienced Windows recognising any USB device instantly. I even posted a screenshot to prove it to you. But because you insisted, I did say that maybe you were right. But how can I totally accept that it does not install drivers for hardware, when it does so for every piece of hardware I connect to it? And I have installed Windows many times and on various machines. Except for the mouse and keyboard that I connected to the PS/2 port, it has installed drivers for every piece of hardware. And I do not really have a problem with it as long as it does so automatically. I was just noting the difference between Mac and Windows as I have experienced it.



			
				Aberforth said:
			
		

> Believe it or not, digit is not an authority on design. It is a person's choice again, what they like no use making fun of someone for this choice. XBox does look on the leagues of MacBook, iPod, etc. because of its whitish looks. I don't hate all of Apple's design, iPod Nano looks much better than other players around.


Well, you have to set some sort of benchmark, so I cited an example that anyone can double-check. Chip, in its October, 2006 issue, had the cover story of good design and the Apple mouse was featured on the cover though the story has nothing to do with computers. And interior design magazine I read described the iMac as taking 'pride of place' in a house and adding 'significantly to the gleaming splendour'. Plus, I could point to website that are not Apple/Mac centric and still cannot get over the hardware design of the Macs, all of them.
Even if you do not like them, you simply cannot call them pathetic unless you are seriously handicapped. In real life, I have yet to come across a single person who has seen my notebook and not praised it. Sure, they have never heard of the company, but they just see it and assume that it is very expensive because of the classy design. Even on the digit forum, today is the first time a mentally capable person has expressed disapproval for an Apple's product's design, and that has been you. It's OK, not everyone likes everything. When I go out to buy clothes with someone, I like something and they are repulsed by it and vice-versa.



			
				Aberforth said:
			
		

> I prefer a full sized keyboard rather than a combo keyboard of Laptop so I have this choice to attach one when I'm home. I like normal handheld mouse rather than trackpad so I carry a small one. If i were to get these from Apple instead of Logitech they would have cost me a bomb.


So, you can always use your Logitech accessories with a MacBook too.



			
				Aberforth said:
			
		

> Photographs can never be 3D, they are laways 2D. Only Holographs so far have 3D capability.


The photographs themselves are not three dimensional (of course, they can never be), but the subject will always be three dimensional. If you capture a snapshot of a live, clearly defined solid subject, it is bound to have a height, breadth and length.
As I am seeing from here, the photographs clearly feature the notebook in a variety of positions and all of them reflect the three fundamental dimensions.

Thanks for a proper reply!  It's nice to read some factual opinions for a change.
__________


			
				brutality9k said:
			
		

> aryayush
> 
> Neither u gave a valid point why we should switch to Mac, nor do u have any relevent fact to give. U are yourself saying things which u refused in that past, now i m toooo lazy to go back & quote u again.
> 
> ...


Why did you eat the highlighted part! I said it was OK to charge 10K extra for:
a) Being the sexiest and lightest laptop in its class;
b) having one of the brightest displays in the market;
c) having a beautiful backlit keyboard;
d) having on board sudden motion sensors;
e) much better operating system than Windows crap and
f) host of professional quality bundled software.

You conveniently left out most of the sentence and quoted only the beginning to back your claim that I had suggested that it was quite OK to charge extra just for better looks. You are sick. I wouldn't have done something like that even when I was at my most desperate stage.


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## Aberforth (Dec 6, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> @Aberforth: I was waiting for your reply. It seems you are the only person here who speaks to the point and makes sensible posts. I've added a rep.



Thank you very much for the compliment, it is appreciated. 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> And I do agree that there are better choices out there if you want a computer for gaming and a Mac is not the ideal choice, specially on a tight budget.



Well I prefer a laptop with more future protection as I cannot go on changing laptops in, say a year, I budgeted upto Rs. 100000/- for the purpose. Mac OS X was definitely nice, especially that installed programs do not mess up with the system itself. But it did not satisfy my gaming needs and I could not find anything that justifies the price as I (and some of my friends) do not like the design and as I think Mac OS X is comparable to Open Suse 10.1 or even latest, Fedora Core 6.0 (Fedora Core is better in the driver point of view if FC 6.0 were not riddled with bugs). Sony was out of the question as it is grossly overpriced, even more so than a Mac. I would have bought Del for the design+features for a higher price only if I could physically check a model out.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> But how can I totally accept that it does not install drivers for hardware, when it does so for every piece of hardware I connect to it?



I did not say that as I know it is illogical and impossible. Windows needs drivers to recognise and hardware but it did install silently (except my SE w700i). My keyboard, mouse and joystick worked as instantly as I connected them, so perhaps Windows had a repository of Logitech devices in its drivers.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Even on the digit forum, today is the first time a mentally capable person has expressed disapproval for an Apple's product's design, and that has been you.



I do not disapprove apple's design I have seen it design some products very good. It improved from iPod's bulky design to a much better iPod Nano, same goes with the old Power PC based iMacs. I think it could have done better on the notebook front, not everyone is impressed by that white/black pearl look, it could make a metallic finish like Vaio and Fijitsu or techno look like Dell - these three companies I have seen make the best designs. Dell and Sony have a great flaunt value too, as much as, if not more than Apple.


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## NikhilVerma (Dec 6, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> e) much better operating system than Windows crap and



I want to know why you said windows CRAP ? You yourself said that people should provide facts and not just rant about things ? Windows is definately not crap ... not by a long shot ...


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## anandbatra (Dec 6, 2006)

Wow. We've got ppl using fake ids here. Never though it'd go to this.

Anyways, here is a CNET comparison of a Dell XPS and MacBook Pro. The MacBook Pro turns out to be $523 cheaper than the dell. Granted that the dell has a better gfx card, but no GFX card can bring down the huge difference in price. Just proves the baseless claims wrong. 

I'd like to put a couple of quotes here



> *Martin Luther King*
> I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. This is why right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant.





> Gautam Buddh
> The way to overcome the angry man is with gentleness, the evil man with goodness, the miser with generosity and the *liar with truth*






> Source- *blogs.zdnet.com/Burnette/?p=211
> 
> Looking for a new computer for multimedia, games, or software development? If you're like me you've probably always heard Apple Macs carried a price premium over machines from companies such as Dell. I decided to put that belief to the test by comparing the prices on two similarly configured notebook computers.
> 
> ...


 __________
As for screens, I'd like rational people to read this post.

*forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=252327&highlight=LCD+dell+apple

This is an explanation why certain brands of LCDs are more expensive, and why other brands are cheaper.
__________


			
				Aberforth said:
			
		

> I think it could have done better on the notebook front, not everyone is impressed by that white/black pearl look, it could make a metallic finish like


MacBook Pro has had a metallic finish since two-three generations, I'd dare say.

Here are some MBP pics from neowin.

*img470.imageshack.us/img470/1219/img9332gr2.jpg

*img388.imageshack.us/img388/7666/img9323ic8.jpg

*img388.imageshack.us/img388/2820/img9328gs3.jpg




> Dell and Sony have a great flaunt value too, as much as, if not more than Apple.


It's about personal taste, isn't it?  Not everyone likes Gul Panag or Minissha Lamba.


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## mediator (Dec 6, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> If the same comment had been posted by a person like you or tech_your_future, you would have seen a much better reply from me. The temperament varies from person-to-person. When the whole world is praising the design of Apple products, you come up here and say that it is 'pathetic' and do not expect to get a nasty reply? Maybe you, as a person who uses computers for doing his job and getting done with it, might not feel strongly about your possessions but I, a person totally devoted to anything to do with technology, do. That reply was meant for a person who defended the comparably tough installation precedure (specially the partition) of Linux by saying that it was not a part of the experience of the end-user and then frustrated the hell out of me explaining me the dictionary definitions of 'system administrator' and 'network manager' and whatnot! Since he is a guy who said rude things about my parents, I have no business showing any respect to him. The fact that I am refraining from flaming him personally reflects my tolerance levels, IMHO


Ok, u mentioned me once again. So let me clear some doubts.
I don't care what the whole world is saying or not saying. I hope u agree that opinions shud be independent  and every person shud have a freedom of speech, dont u?? Marking it(MacBook's design) as "pathetic" shudn't bother u if u think its design is great. Why make such an issue out of it??

About end-users experience it seems u still have doubts. I already explained dozen of times. But allow me to enlighten u one last time.
U r installing Linux on ur PC,administering it,developing programs and njoying it as well. So in this condition there resides a system admin/maintainner, developer and end-user in u. Since u asked about end-users experience specifically and firmly in that thread and already suppressed some of Linux advantages in first post of urs, I thought u wud be knowing what end-user is. But all the way u come crying and showing that u didn't even know what end-users stand for and there u were starting a thread when u didn't even know what "end-user" mean. These are not dictionary definitions brother. I referred u some books to read. U didn't even read em. So I again urge u to read em. 

If u think installation part is difficult in Linux the mark it as difficult in experience of admin/maintainer. Why end-user?? I hope atleast now the point is clear. 

About ur parents, can u tell what rude things I said???? Did I flame em???
I only said if such a thing as u discussed in those posts is discussed normally in ur family too. Its quite clear and obvious that when a person talks egoistically, with terms as "loser", "funny" and other demoralising statments, then the society thinks that the same scenario prevails in his family and surroundings too. Isn't it?? Did I flame ur parents?? I already neglected all ur flames in those posts and didn't even marked u as stupid though the same "stupid" term is allowed by @raaabo or @digitadmin in one of the threads I'm subscribed tooo. Its UFO one I think. So I never said rude things about ur parents. *I was about to clarify this itself earlier too when @fatbeing closed this thread before my post, letting me clarify and warned us.* I never indulge anyone's parents in debates. But thats how debates are done by saying as I did with the use of statments => if "the same scenario prevails in ur family" or "ur family has thought u such a language".

GO ask any respected elder in ur family and u'll know what I'm talking about. 

So I hope there is no misunderstanding between u and me.


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## aryayush (Dec 6, 2006)

Almost every one of your replies to my posts had comments like "do you tell your father to shut up when he tries to enlighten you", "do you call your dad a liar too when he teaches you something", when I once asked you to 'shut up', you replied by saying 'ask your dad to do that' or something to that effect. I cannot quote your exact words because Raabo has cleared up every post you made relating to my family (which, in itself, signifies how offensive they were) but I will never forget them in a hurry. And this was your last post:





			
				mediator said:
			
		

> *are fu**er, sucker, bloody, kidding , etc. the only polite words your mommy taught you*


Any living human being who respects his/her mother would find that immensly offensive. If you do not, you have to re-think your priorities. Such petty debates are not important enough to bring in the mention of someone's parents into it. Who gave you the right to even mention them, let alone suggesting that they taught me swear words? 
And then you post this:





			
				mediator said:
			
		

> I never indulge anyone's parents in debates.



I do not know how much respect your have for your parents, nor do I think that I have any authority to question it, but you should never ever relate anything a person does to his parents. There are a lot of people out there who watch pornographic movies and visit third grade places. Try telling one of them that you think that their parents taught them such things. Or try telling one of the mods something like what you posted about me. They won't even bother miserabling you!


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## FatBeing (Dec 6, 2006)

Thread closed.

Not only does it flog a dead horse, some excessively immature people have decided to hijack it.

Mediator, aryayush, brutality: take 1 week of misery to go read up on proper debate etiquette.


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