# EU could force Microsoft to bundle Firefox/Opera/Safari with Windows



## squid (Jan 27, 2009)

The European Commission could force Microsoft to bundle Firefox with future versions of Windows.

The revelation came as part of Microsoft's quarterly filing with the Security and Exchange Commission. Among the statements is a clause outlining the penalties being considered by the European watchdog, which recently ruled that Microsoft is harming competition by bundling Internet Explorer with Windows.

The most interesting situation outlined in the filing would see either Microsoft or computer manufacturers forced to install Firefox, Chrome, Opera and Safari by default alongside Internet Explorer on new Windows-based PCs.

If Microsoft is forced to bundle other browsers, then windows 7 will have firefox by default when it is released at least in EU

Source 
*www.pcpro.co.uk/news/245994/eu-could-force-microsoft-to-bundle-firefox-with-windows.html


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## Cool G5 (Jan 27, 2009)

Cool


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## gxsaurav (Jan 27, 2009)

This is blasphemy, this is madness....This is EUUUUUUUUUU

Why should Microsoft bundle a product with Windows which they did not create, which doesn't follow the Windows' native UI guidelines, doesn't follow the Windows recommended way of creating an application, isn't made in Managed Code, creates memory leaks, doesn't follow DEP API (Chrome), doesn't integrate well with Windows Internals.??? If they have to integrate, then better take over K-mellon & integrate that.

If some customer has some problem they will call Microsoft for some thing they did not create. Why why why...

If Microsoft is forced, I personally recommend Microsoft to file an antitrust case in EU & U.S court claiming that Apple is monopolizing the Mac OS market by bundling Safari in Mac OS & all linux distro should also be forced to include Opera & Konqurer too.


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## avinash.gamerboy (Jan 27, 2009)

uncle billi wont allow


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## shri (Jan 27, 2009)

When I want to buy a product, I would prefer the one that has more features and can get me going once I install it. 
For ex a car accessories manufacturer may complain that the car maker is killing competition by selling cars with alloy wheels or mp3 player or fog lamps.


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## MetalheadGautham (Jan 27, 2009)

gxsaurav said:


> all linux distro should also be forced to include Opera & Konqurer too.


they already do.
check the repos next time before talking cr@p.


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## gxsaurav (Jan 27, 2009)

@ Gautam

Ah!...how good I will feel the day U turn 18 & have some sanity compiled in your brain's kernel 

The other browsers are available to be installed in the Repository when the user wants but by default only Firefox or Konqurer is installed.

Well, in case of Windows, the other browsers are available to be installed when the user wants, but by default IE is installed. 

Whats the difference here due to which Windows is blamed? Oh & by the way, EU wants Microsoft to pre-install other browsers, so with this logic Ubuntu should also come with Opera, Chrome, Konqurer pre-installed.


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## MetalheadGautham (Jan 27, 2009)

gxsaurav said:


> @ Gautam
> 
> Ah!...how good I will feel the day U turn 18 & have some sanity compiled in your brain's kernel


May 31st. This year. 
Gonna miss being a minor, because it hurts the pride much more when a minor pwns you than when a 50 year old uncle pwns you 



> The other browsers are available to be installed in the Repository when the user wants but by default only Firefox or Konqurer is installed.
> 
> Well, in case of Windows, the other browsers are available to be installed when the user wants, but by default IE is installed.
> 
> Whats the difference here due to which Windows is blamed? Oh & by the way, EU wants Microsoft to pre-install other browsers, so with this logic Ubuntu should also come with Opera, Chrome, Konqurer pre-installed.



there is a BIG difference. in ubuntu, its not 3rd party servers which host konqueror.

and people always use ubuntu by "choice" and they are fully aware of the various things available with it. Its true to a much larger extent when it comes to Power Distros like ArchLinux and Gentoo. Every detail is chosen personally here.

Nothing is "forced" upon you. You are always free to replace Nautilus with PCManFM (the way I did ) in Ubuntu. You can also replace both Gnome and KDE with Xfce. And everything is made available to you openly.

Ubuntu does not try to hide the fact that there exists a browser called Midori for linux or that there is a file manager called rox for example.

Within the OS, in Synaptic, you have a list of all available software for ubuntu, atleast, a HUGE MAJORITY. This is what EU expected MS to do with Windows N editions, and they did do it, when the users were presented with a list of media players available and links to their web pages.

Finally, ubuntu has a microscopic market share compared to Windows XP or Windows Vista. I guess anti-trust laws are valid only for high market share products. If I remember right, for a similar reason, AT&T was <dismantled> to two companies to reduce its monopoly. I know laws suck, but hey, there is little you can do about it. Remember apple's patent of "rectangular windows" ? 

But yes, only the most ignorant of ignorant people would prefer to always stick to the defaults and be afraid to install a 3rd party software. I have seen people who use a computer for the first time asking questions after a few sessions like "can the background picture be different ?", "why can't you put the X button on the left side ?" etc.

Hence the fact that this rule was imposed by EU itself is amusing. I may not like IE, but I would still buy windows standard instead of windows N edition simply because I don't give a DAMN.

PS: Imagine Windows 7 having an N edition. Windows Seven would become Windows seve*N*


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## gxsaurav (Jan 27, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> May 31st. This year.
> Gonna miss being a minor, because it hurts the pride much more when a minor pwns you than when a 50 year old uncle pwns you



Yeah, must be feeling great isn't it...too bad u severely lack the experience of this industry.



> and people always use ubuntu by "choice" and they are fully aware of the various things available with it. Its true to a much larger extent when it comes to Power Distros like ArchLinux and Gentoo. Every detail is chosen personally here.



People use IE because they chose to, no one is forcing them to use IE. They can very well install some 3rd party browser.



> Nothing is "forced" upon you. You are always free to replace Nautilus with PCManFM (the way I did ) in Ubuntu. You can also replace both Gnome and KDE with Xfce. And everything is made available to you openly.



Too bad there are not many good alternate shells for Windows, but do u know that you can replace with Explorer with Aston completely. Nothing is forced upon u either, u just get something easy to start with.



> Ubuntu does not try to hide the fact that there exists a browser called Midori for linux or that there is a file manager called rox for example.



Is it written in Ubuntu's help files? How does Ubuntu tells you that there are other file manager out there? Does ubuntu gives u an option to select your preferred file manager during installation?



> Within the OS, in Synaptic, you have a list of all available software for ubuntu, atleast, a HUGE MAJORITY. This is what EU expected MS to do with Windows N editions, and they did do it, when the users were presented with a list of media players available and links to their web pages.



Ever heard of Windows Marketplace?


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## MetalheadGautham (Jan 27, 2009)

gxsaurav said:


> Yeah, must be feeling great isn't it...too bad u severely lack the experience of this industry.


Not really. It hardly feels like anything because I would still be doing the same things I did before. Its not as if I am getting married as soon as I turn 18 or something. I am still ME 




> People use IE because they chose to, no one is forcing them to use IE. They can very well install some 3rd party browser.


I said that.




> Too bad there are not many good alternate shells for Windows, but do u know that you can replace with Explorer with Aston completely. Nothing is forced upon u either, u just get something easy to start with.


I said that too.




> Is it written in Ubuntu's help files? How does Ubuntu tells you that there are other file manager out there? Does ubuntu gives u an option to select your preferred file manager during installation?


Yes its written. Also check out the official online ubuntu manual. Its much more broader and updated. It nearly taught me EVERYTHING I need to know about ubuntu. You have cool hacks, tips, tricks and some nice ideas to replace stuff. Using it even a n00b can do things he never dreamt of doing on installing linux.




> Ever heard of Windows Marketplace?



Yeah. Too bad there is no such thing I know as a windows marketplace explorer, which is intergrated to add/remove programs and which can be used to directly search for apps all over the net using categories. If it existed it would have made life much easier for people. Would have been much more useful than that Games Explorer on Vista. 
Anyway, marketplace has way too little choice. Hardly any apps.


And yeah, for future reference, I already said several things which you repeated



			
				MetalheadGautham said:
			
		

> But yes, only the most ignorant of ignorant people would prefer to always stick to the defaults and be afraid to install a 3rd party software. I have seen people who use a computer for the first time asking questions after a few sessions like "can the background picture be different ?", "why can't you put the X button on the left side ?" etc.
> 
> Hence the fact that this rule was imposed by EU itself is amusing. I may not like IE, but I would still buy windows standard instead of windows N edition simply because I don't give a DAMN.
> 
> PS: Imagine Windows 7 having an N edition. Windows Seven would become Windows seve*N*


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## Liverpool_fan (Jan 27, 2009)

So I jump to the debate.

Great decision EU. :clap:
Microsoft from the beginning are following unethical promotion of its software by deviating standards, often using their monopoly to force their products and standards on others repeatedly. Even if they claim to make/follow the standards they woefully deficient to their words. Take case of OOXML. Hell...It has such crappy documentation...
Speaking of Internet Explorer, Has it EVER been a standards following browser? No. They were the last to past the old Acid2 test and using the dominance of the standards have pushed IE to a limit which is well beyond unethical.
Contrary wise, they also used popularity for pushing their standards...
Also IE(Trident) is the only browser which is NOT cross platform and IS A PAID SOFTWARE. Yes you get it right IE is a PAID software because you need WGA to run it or in other words a Windows License and a result you cannot even run it in WINE w/o Windows license. While Firefox and Opera are available for all major OS, and are also FREE of cost for ALL OS. And Safari is on both Windows/OSX and also is based on Webkit and in Linux/*BSD/Solaris, we have various browsers with Webkit.

I guess MS is getting the dose of its own medicine...





gxsaurav said:


> Whats the difference here due to which Windows is blamed? Oh & by the way, EU wants Microsoft to pre-install other browsers, so with this logic Ubuntu should also come with Opera, Chrome, Konqurer pre-installed.



Ubuntu does not stop Opera or Chrome coming out with their own distributions, with those browsers installed. Unfortunately Microsoft licensing does not allow that.



gxsaurav said:


> People use IE because they chose to, no one is forcing them to use IE. They can very well install some 3rd party browser.


They are forced...by virtue of ignorance


EU YOU ROCK...

Next thing I hope EU forces MS to port MS Office to Linux/FreeBSD/Solaris.


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## MetalheadGautham (Jan 27, 2009)

Anurag_panda said:


> Next thing I hope EU forces MS to port MS Office to Linux/FreeBSD/Solaris.


RUBBISH......... 

even saudi arabia won't have such dumb laws....

What next ? Sue some undergarment company to port Bikinis to Men ?


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## ThinkFree (Jan 27, 2009)

Great news


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## Liverpool_fan (Jan 27, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> RUBBISH.........
> 
> even saudi arabia won't have such dumb laws....
> 
> What next ? Sue some undergarment company to port Bikinis to Men ?



I wasn't entirely serious...


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## chooza (Jan 28, 2009)

gxsaurav said:


> @ Gautam
> 
> Ah!...how good I will feel the day U turn 18 & have some sanity compiled in your brain's kernel
> 
> ...


Brother, Dont you know that in this forum maximum like to hate or curse Microsoft. I think whole day the work they do is to search the new which is anti MS. and please dont say anything about Linux, google or FF. They are their god. Tumko Ukhad denge.


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## vamsi360 (Jan 28, 2009)

hey....no wars Everyone has his/her own superior opinion and their own interests. 

I dont think Microsoft software are bad. They are great. Dont criticize them on the ground that you use Linux/BSD/Solaris. 
Just be sure that you are using all to increse your productivity than to criticize others. If one feels superior go ahead and create your own geeky OS and apps and make exclusively for you. Meanwhile donot bang good software


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## Jayanth.M.P (Jan 28, 2009)

I dont understand the idiocy of these europeans...........Windows is a microsoft product and IE a tool in it. Who asked these dumbass euros not to download and install firefox, opera or which ever browser they feel comfortable with.

The same EU allows all kinds of things to be bundled with linux. Linux can bundle programming tools, office tools, browsers, email clients etc etc etc......

Its very obvious here.... Microsoft is a US company and EU just cannot tolerate it.....they will never change their colonial mentality.


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## desiibond (Jan 28, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> and people always use ubuntu by "choice" and they are fully aware of the various things available with it. Its true to a much larger extent when it comes to Power Distros like ArchLinux and Gentoo. Every detail is chosen personally here.



what? I didn't know that MS is putting users at gunpoint and making them install windows.



MetalheadGautham said:


> Nothing is "forced" upon you. You are always free to replace Nautilus with PCManFM (the way I did ) in Ubuntu. You can also replace both Gnome and KDE with Xfce. And everything is made available to you openly.
> 
> Ubuntu does not try to hide the fact that there exists a browser called Midori for linux or that there is a file manager called rox for example.



ah. People are able to install more number of browsers in windows than in Linux. And nobody is forcing you to use IE on windows. 



> Within the OS, in Synaptic, you have a list of all available software for ubuntu, atleast, a HUGE MAJORITY. This is what EU expected MS to do with Windows N editions, and they did do it, when the users were presented with a list of media players available and links to their web pages.



www.download.com. As simple as using synaptic.




MetalheadGautham said:


> Finally, ubuntu has a microscopic market share compared to Windows XP or Windows Vista. I guess anti-trust laws are valid only for high market share products. If I remember right, for a similar reason, AT&T was <dismantled> to two companies to reduce its monopoly. I know laws suck, but hey, there is little you can do about it. Remember apple's patent of "rectangular windows" ?



Why can't EU say that Apple should make itunes available for linux. Apple has lion's share and by giving it only for windows/mac, they are creating monopoly as users need to have mac/windows pc to use itunes. 

coz they are bunch of acchholes!!!



MetalheadGautham said:


> But yes, only the most ignorant of ignorant people would prefer to always stick to the defaults and be afraid to install a 3rd party software. I have seen people who use a computer for the first time asking questions after a few sessions like "can the background picture be different ?", "why can't you put the X button on the left side ?" etc.



Do they have to use anything else if what they have is doing the job without any headache.


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## Liverpool_fan (Jan 28, 2009)

^ The problem IMO is not only restricted to which browser people are using but also of standards. Unfortunately till now, IE has never been a standards following browser and has set its own "standards". As a result web developers code focusing on IE alone and leave other browsers unattended.
As an implication of this these web sites do not render as well in other browser as in MSIE, putting other browsers at a disadvantage.
This would have never happened if IE had followed standards and MS had been ethical.
And I dunno why you guys are reacting angrily to this, MS is not stopped bundling IE, rather they are forced to bundle other browsers which is a win-win situation for consumers and web developers.
As for "An App not following Windows guideline", oh please...MS could modify FF src code and also of Webkit...to make it integrated with Windows. Hell they could also call it Microsoft Firefox or Microsoft Iceweasel or IE Webkit or something 



Jayanth.M.P said:


> I dont understand the idiocy of these europeans...........Windows is a microsoft product and IE a tool in it. Who asked these dumbass euros not to download and install firefox, opera or which ever browser they feel comfortable with.
> 
> The same EU allows all kinds of things to be bundled with linux. Linux can bundle programming tools, office tools, browsers, email clients etc etc etc......
> 
> Its very obvious here.... Microsoft is a US company and EU just cannot tolerate it.....they will never change their colonial mentality.



They (US' Crappy Laws) don't allow Linux distros to bundle Media Codecs due to stupid damn patents. I scarcely think MS faces anything close to as bad as this.


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## NucleusKore (Jan 28, 2009)

It would be better if they had an option to uninstall internet explorer than bundle other browsers. It's an insane ruling.


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## gopi_vbboy (Jan 28, 2009)

But Windows live will be bundled search engine for firefox :d


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## Coool (Jan 28, 2009)

opera with windows = coool


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## gxsaurav (Jan 28, 2009)

Anurag_panda said:


> ^ The problem IMO is not only restricted to which browser people are using but also of standards. Unfortunately till now, IE has never been a standards following browser and has set its own "standards". As a result web developers code focusing on IE alone and leave other browsers unattended.


 
In the year 2000, web developers were coding in AJAX which only used to work in IE. They stopped because only IE supported it at that time. Yes, IE did make there own standards but they are some of the foundation standards which today even W3C adopted & follows. Microsoft has made many standards in the computing world today, U don't even realize it.

IE 6 was indeed not standard complaint compared to Firefox but IE 8 isn't. IE 8 is a lot more standard complaint compared to IE 6 or IE 7 & Microsoft is on the right track to deliver a fully standard complaint browser. I myself now work with some web developer & they agree that IE 8 is lot better then IE 6 for web development.



> As an implication of this these web sites do not render as well in other browser as in MSIE, putting other browsers at a disadvantage.



This no longer happens. Those websites which used to work fine in IE 6 or IE 7 now break in IE 8. It is upto developers to update there site so that it works in both IE 8 & Firefox with good standard.


> This would have never happened if IE had followed standards and MS had been ethical.



Dude, do u even realize how many standards Microsoft made which today Firefox & Opera are using in there browser engine? In the beaning there were no standards, Netscape had there own standards of doing things while MS had there own. Due to the market share of IE, the standards which IE made dominated the market & they are some of the basic standards. Do u even know what a standard in W3C is & how it was created or did u just read it on some blog or Anti-MS website due to which u r talking like this?



> And I dunno why you guys are reacting angrily to this, MS is not stopped bundling IE, rather they are forced to bundle other browsers which is a win-win situation for consumers and web developers.



Which also means more bloat & support hassle to Microsoft for a software they did not make. U R in India so U don't know the support situation Europeans & U.S people create. If there is a problem in Firefox bundled in Windows then lame & new users will blame MS saying "The biggest software company in this world sux, couldn't they test this software before bundling".



> As for "An App not following Windows guideline", oh please...MS could modify FF src code and also of Webkit...to make it integrated with Windows. Hell they could also call it Microsoft Firefox or Microsoft Iceweasel or IE Webkit or something



Start working bro, you will know that creating something is always better then borrowing some code cos when u create the code, u know how things work.



> They (US' Crappy Laws) don't allow Linux distros to bundle Media Codecs due to stupid damn patents. I scarcely think MS faces anything close to as bad as this.



Microsoft won't. They pay licensing fees to thompsan multimedia & other companies to bundle there codec support in Windows. When you buy a Windows Vista edition, some money paid goes to license authors.


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## Liverpool_fan (Jan 28, 2009)

gxsaurav said:


> In the year 2000, web developers were coding in AJAX which only used to work in IE. They stopped because only IE supported it at that time. Yes, IE did make there own standards but they are some of the foundation standards which today even W3C adopted & follows. Microsoft has made many standards in the computing world today, U don't even realize it.


I appreciate what Microsoft gave to the world with IE. However one cannot forget where they did wrong as well. And TBH they weren't alone;  Netscape too was highly guilty..



> IE 6 was indeed not standard complaint compared to Firefox but IE 8 isn't. IE 8 is a lot more standard complaint compared to IE 6 or IE 7 & Microsoft is on the right track to deliver a fully standard complaint browser. I myself now work with some web developer & they agree that IE 8 is lot better then IE 6 for web development.
> 
> 
> 
> This no longer happens. Those websites which used to work fine in IE 6 or IE 7 now break in IE 8. It is upto developers to update there site so that it works in both IE 8 & Firefox with good standard.


Excellent. I guess with Windows 7 and IE8, MS is trying to turn over a good leaf. Hopefully they'll soon understand that simplicity and competence would do they more good. 
I have also heard IE8 is good to be standards compliant, and nothing can be better than that...




> Dude, do u even realize how many standards Microsoft made which today Firefox & Opera are using in there browser engine? In the beaning there were no standards, Netscape had there own standards of doing things while MS had there own. Due to the market share of IE, the standards which IE made dominated the market & they are some of the basic standards. Do u even know what a standard in W3C is & how it was created or did u just read it on some blog or Anti-MS website due to which u r talking like this?


I know the history, it's of special interest to me.
However IE6 was not standards compliant, and neither was IE7 either, and whether that was in good intentions or not, it out other browsers at a disadvantage.
Hopefully with a more standardized IE8, this should no longer be the case...




> Which also means more bloat & support hassle to Microsoft for a software they did not make. U R in India so U don't know the support situation Europeans & U.S people create. If there is a problem in Firefox bundled in Windows then lame & new users will blame MS saying "The biggest software company in this world sux, couldn't they test this software before bundling".


This did not come to my mind. But maybe they could put a browser choices in Welcome center, and if user chooses other than IE, they could warn it's not supported by MS. No?




> Start working bro, you will know that creating something is always better then borrowing some code cos when u create the code, u know how things work.


Actually it depends a lot on the situation. In some cases while maintaing own's code is better, but on other cases using other's code is better. But of course MS is a huge corporation, so I guess they don't need to depend on anyone, but nothing stops them from deriving benefits. 
And sometimes embracing alternatives can actually bring profit. (Apache + Windows for instance)




> Microsoft won't. They pay licensing fees to thompsan multimedia & other companies to bundle there codec support in Windows. When you buy a Windows Vista edition, some money paid goes to license authors.


You misunderstand me. I wasn't referring to Microsoft to what you quoted. What I was saying is what MS is probably facing due to this EU's judgement to which people are describing as mindless/crappy, Linux distros face far worse in terms of codecs licensing.
Laws in general are confusing and there is no thing such as fair law or judgement particularly regarding software.


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## chooza (Jan 28, 2009)

gxsaurav said:


> In the year 2000, web developers were coding in AJAX which only used to work in IE. They stopped because only IE supported it at that time. Yes, IE did make there own standards but they are some of the foundation standards which today even W3C adopted & follows. Microsoft has made many standards in the computing world today, U don't even realize it.
> 
> IE 6 was indeed not standard complaint compared to Firefox but IE 8 isn't. IE 8 is a lot more standard complaint compared to IE 6 or IE 7 & Microsoft is on the right track to deliver a fully standard complaint browser. I myself now work with some web developer & they agree that IE 8 is lot better then IE 6 for web development.
> 
> ...


Brother, dont talk such technical terms overhere, people here are just followers, they will not understand it. They only know that Linux is free, Firefox is best and Windows is Crap. No use of arguing these.


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## iMav (Jan 28, 2009)

NucleusKore said:


> It would be better if they had an option to uninstall internet explorer than bundle other browsers. It's an insane ruling.


Every time the IE issue comes up, you say you want an option to un-install it. Can I know what bothers you if you set Opera or Firefox or Chrome or Safari or Maxthon as your default browser? Is it hard-disk space?
----
As far as the EU is concerned oh well, bundling FF with Ubuntu is perfectly fine for them or Safari with OS X is absolutely legal, but if MSFT bundles IE it becomes a huge monopoly issue!

Let's see, remove IE 'coz it's monopoly; remove WMP 'coz it's monopoly & give consumers an OS that is crippled & useless out of the box! Wow! That would make my life as a user a hell lot easier! Go for it AMEU.

I buy a PC, I pay 70,000/- & get myself a brand new spanking hot, totally pimped Dell XPS only to boot into it & see that I don't have an internet browser or a media player. And guess what, not having a browser pretty much makes life difficult for me to download 1 too!

The last thing I want is to be remembering & typing lame codes to download a browser!


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## MetalheadGautham (Jan 28, 2009)

iMav said:


> Every time the IE issue comes up, you say you want an option to un-install it. Can I know what bothers you if you set Opera or Firefox or Chrome or Safari or Maxthon as your default browser? Is it hard-disk space?


I think he meant that an option in Add/Remove Programs to 100% remove IE/WMP should exist. 


> ----
> As far as the EU is concerned oh well, bundling FF with Ubuntu is perfectly fine for them or Safari with OS X is absolutely legal, but if MSFT bundles IE it becomes a huge monopoly issue!
> 
> Let's see, remove IE 'coz it's monopoly; remove WMP 'coz it's monopoly & give consumers an OS that is crippled & useless out of the box! Wow! That would make my life as a user a hell lot easier! Go for it AMEU.
> ...


Fully Agree.


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## chooza (Jan 28, 2009)

iMav said:


> Every time the IE issue comes up, you say you want an option to un-install it. Can I know what bothers you if you set Opera or Firefox or Chrome or Safari or Maxthon as your default browser? Is it hard-disk space?
> ----
> As far as the EU is concerned oh well, bundling FF with Ubuntu is perfectly fine for them or Safari with OS X is absolutely legal, but if MSFT bundles IE it becomes a huge monopoly issue!
> 
> ...




I too agree with you Bro.


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## gxsaurav (Jan 28, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> I think he meant that an option in Add/Remove Programs to 100% remove IE/WMP should exist.



I wonder,....why? Is it slowing your browsing in firefox? Is it stopping u from playing Ogg files???

Tell u what...if the 3rd party vendors can make there browser engine fully integrated inside the shell of Windows, like IE has then even I would advocate Microsoft to completely remove IE & give users an options. Until they can make a browser engine for an OS, they should not say to remove IE.


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## MetalheadGautham (Jan 29, 2009)

gxsaurav said:


> I wonder,....why? Is it slowing your browsing in firefox? Is it stopping u from playing Ogg files???
> 
> Tell u what...if the 3rd party vendors can make there browser engine fully integrated inside the shell of Windows, like IE has then even I would advocate Microsoft to completely remove IE & give users an options. Until they can make a browser engine for an OS, they should not say to remove IE.


Look, nobody is asking MS to remove IE here. They just want MS to HELP them remove IE if they don't like it.

I too want Windows Movie Maker, Windows Media Player, Windows Explorer, Windows Games, etc to be bundled with the OS. But I would appriciate it if MS could enable us to completely remove them as easily as removing 3rd party apps, and at the same time add them back with equal ease.


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## iMav (Jan 29, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> I think he meant that an option in Add/Remove Programs to 100% remove IE/WMP should exist.


OK, but why is what I want to know. Why is having IE as a back-up browser so much of a problem. Don't use it, let it be there. Why do you want to get rid of it?


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## gxsaurav (Jan 29, 2009)

Sorry, this I wrote long back which you should read again. Internet Explorer frontend can be removed from Windows even now but the Trident engine cannot be removed because the OS needs it.


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## MetalheadGautham (Jan 29, 2009)

iMav said:


> OK, but why is what I want to know. Why is having IE as a back-up browser so much of a problem. Don't use it, let it be there. Why do you want to get rid of it?


The answer is same as the answer to the question why people uninstall games after playing them and backing up save files. To save hard disc space. Now is the flash memory and netbook era. Space is valuble.

Besides, having *just* the things you need makes the OS look really neat and elegent.

Anyway, isn't MS already implementing this ? I heard Windows 7 is highly modular and you can add/remove anything you want ?


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## x3060 (Jan 29, 2009)

if that's the case i want to get rid of movie maker first . although i could do it via nlite and vlite


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## desiibond (Jan 29, 2009)

^^win7 will not have

mail
movie maker
messenger

you have to install Live pack for these.


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## x3060 (Jan 29, 2009)

now i see why win7 is gonna rock


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## infra_red_dude (Jan 29, 2009)

gxsaurav said:


> Why should Microsoft bundle a product with Windows...


Agree with you...



gxsaurav said:


> ... which they did not create, which doesn't follow the Windows' native UI guidelines, doesn't follow the Windows recommended way of creating an application,....


.. but not for these reasons.



gxsaurav said:


> If some customer has some problem they will call Microsoft for some thing they did not create. Why why why...


Ditto! People will start blaming MS then which definitely is not right. I agree with you completely here.



gxsaurav said:


> Whats the difference here due to which Windows is blamed? Oh & by the way, EU wants Microsoft to pre-install other browsers, so with this logic Ubuntu should also come with Opera, Chrome, Konqurer pre-installed.


Your logic if flawed. Linux distros (except the ones like Linspire etc.) are required to bundle the source code with the OS. Opera is NOT opensource and Konqueror requires all of the KDE libraries in a non-KDE environment hence its not bundled with Ubuntu (but it is bundled with Kubuntu, which makes sense). Chrome is new kid on the block. Give it some time and I'm sure you'll surely see it soon bundled.



gxsaurav said:


> People use IE because they chose to...


Oh please come out of this misconception!!!!



gxsaurav said:


> ...but do u know that you can replace with Explorer with Aston completely.


No I didn't. And I bet millions out there who use Windows don't know that too.



gxsaurav said:


> Ever heard of Windows Marketplace?


I bet 90% of "mundane" Windows users haf never ever heard of that.



MetalheadGautham said:


> there is a BIG difference. in ubuntu, its not 3rd party servers which host konqueror.


This statement makes absolutely no sense to me!



MetalheadGautham said:


> Nothing is "forced" upon you. You are always free to replace Nautilus with PCManFM (the way I did ) in Ubuntu.


Windows is no different. It doesn't say "If you install 3rd party software I'll screw your system!". Its just that GNU/Linux users usually know about a bunch of alternatives.



MetalheadGautham said:


> Ubuntu does not try to hide the fact that there exists a browser called Midori for linux or that there is a file manager called rox for example.


I bet 100% of casual/first time Ubuntu users do not know this!



MetalheadGautham said:


> Within the OS, in Synaptic, you have a list of all available software for ubuntu, atleast, a HUGE MAJORITY. This is what EU expected MS to do with Windows N editions, and they did do it, when the users were presented with a list of media players available and links to their web pages.


I think its a nice idea to haf an interface to Windows MarketPlace on the desktop after first install. Tho I'm all for a name change. MarketPlace will shoo away most of the users! But just because Debian based distros haf Synaptic so should Windows, is a dumb comparison.



MetalheadGautham said:


> I guess anti-trust laws are valid only for high market share products.


You are wrong, my friend.



vamsi360 said:


> Dont criticize them on the ground that you use Linux/BSD/Solaris.


Nod.. nod.. I mean.. affirmative 



chooza said:


> Brother, dont talk such technical terms overhere, people here are just followers, they will not understand it. They only know that Linux is free, Firefox is best and Windows is Crap. No use of arguing these.


Yes, we know what you wanted to say from your last post. Posting such things will only lead to more flame wars. So please try to stay away from such comments.



iMav said:


> Every time the IE issue comes up, you say you want an option to un-install it. Can I know what bothers you if you set Opera or Firefox or Chrome or Safari or Maxthon as your default browser? Is it hard-disk space?


Exactly my question!



MetalheadGautham said:


> The answer is same as the answer to the question why people uninstall games after playing them and backing up save files. To save hard disc space. Now is the flash memory and netbook era. Space is valuble.


I find this argument dumb, but then.. maybe.. its just me!



x3060 said:


> now i see why win7 is gonna rock


lol...


----------



## MetalheadGautham (Jan 29, 2009)

desiibond said:


> ^^win7 will not have
> 
> mail
> movie maker
> ...



I thought its lighter than vista ? So when vista DVD image is 2GB compressed, Win7 should have less, right ?

Then WHY can't MS use the extra free 2.6GB to give us optional installables like messenger, movie maker, mail, visual studio 2008 express editon, office viewer, etc ? The space would be more than enough.



infra_red_dude said:


> This statement makes absolutely no sense to me!


GX asked WHY ubuntu does not bundle konqueror in its CD.
So I said that in ubuntu, the fact that konqueror is existing in its own repos is enough to mean that ubuntu "bundles" konqueror in some way. Not that I support the EU ruling though. 



> Windows is no different. It doesn't say "If you install 3rd party software I'll screw your system!". Its just that GNU/Linux users usually know about a bunch of alternatives.


Point taken.



> I bet 100% of casual/first time Ubuntu users do not know this!



but they WILL know if they see ubuntuguide 
and most people who install ubuntu and ask for help are adviced to read it in entity.



> I find this argument dumb, but then.. maybe.. its just me!



Let me guess: you have a 320GB HDD ? 



> I think its a nice idea to haf an interface to Windows MarketPlace on the desktop after first install. Tho I'm all for a name change. MarketPlace will shoo away most of the users! But just because Debian based distros haf Synaptic so should Windows, is a dumb comparison.



Ditto for Android. Marketplace always makes it look like something paid or restricted in some way. Why not _Windows Software Archive_ or something like that ?


----------



## Liverpool_fan (Jan 29, 2009)

I still fail to see why so much anger to this ruling? IE is *still* being and will be bundled with Microsoft Windows. Only MS is forced to bundle web browsers.
Tell you what...even 3rd party browsers like Opera should not really desire to be bundled with Windows. Since they are updated often, that version would be outdated pretty soon.
What I think and want to happen with this ruling is MS giving a choice in the Welcome Center, or make a desktop shortcut; like Connect to Internet which would launch a Wizard, allowing user to make their choice (multiple choices IMO), if they choose IE, IE's shorcuts and path would be installed (since it would be initially installed but hidden, or maybe front end would be not be installed by default and would be installed by this step) and if they choose say Opera, Opera would be automatically downloaded and installed.
And they could put a disclaimer if user chooses anything other than IE, that support for that particular browser would be provided by the other company rather than Microsoft.
This would be ultimate win for both IE and other web browsers.
And tell you waht it would make MS Windows even more friendly to use.
Hell I wouldn't mind Ubuntu having such a wizard.

As for WMP, hasn't EU already stopped MS from bundling it with the Windows N edition? And unless I am highly mistaken it had more to do with the closed codecs of WMP. If MS has kept their own codecs royalty free, and also claimed support for FLAC, ogg, by default in WMP, that wouldn't happened.
Of course that's how I feel, others may be feel differently.


----------



## desiibond (Jan 29, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> I thought its lighter than vista ? So when vista DVD image is 2GB compressed, Win7 should have less, right ?
> 
> Then WHY can't MS use the extra free 2.6GB to give us optional installables like messenger, movie maker, mail, visual studio 2008 express editon, office viewer, etc ? The space would be more than enough.



Do you remember what everyone says about Sony laptops. They install lot of freeware and trialware (a.k.a bloatware) with windows image making the OS heavy right out of the box. The best way to keep windows share growing is by keeping it simple yet effective, light yet resourceful.

Filling windows install disc with s/w's will not do any good.

2.6 GB free space doesn't mean that they should fill it up. The size of win7's image is bigger than that of Vista, mainly due to bigger driver pack.


----------



## MetalheadGautham (Jan 29, 2009)

desiibond said:


> Do you remember what everyone says about Sony laptops. They install lot of freeware and trialware (a.k.a bloatware) with windows image making the OS heavy right out of the box. The best way to keep windows share growing is by keeping it simple yet effective, light yet resourceful.


I said the same thing indirectly.
Forcing such software on people is crap, but giving them an option, say in the installer menu, would make things much more cozy.



> Filling windows install disc with s/w's will not do any good.


Whats wrong ? User still has freedom of choice whether to install or not install software.



> 2.6 GB free space doesn't mean that they should fill it up. The size of win7's image is bigger than that of Vista, mainly due to bigger driver pack.


How big ???


----------



## gxsaurav (Jan 29, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> I thought its lighter than vista ? So when vista DVD image is 2GB compressed, Win7 should have less, right ?
> 
> Then WHY can't MS use the extra free 2.6GB to give us optional installables like messenger, movie maker, mail, visual studio 2008 express editon, office viewer, etc ? The space would be more than enough.



Because they are being sued for bundling Microsoft's own other products with Windows.



> GX asked WHY ubuntu does not bundle konqueror in its CD.
> So I said that in ubuntu, the fact that konqueror is existing in its own repos is enough to mean that ubuntu "bundles" konqueror in some way. Not that I support the EU ruling though.



but its not installed. it should be just like EU wants MS to bundle Firefox.



> And unless I am highly mistaken it had more to do with the closed codecs of WMP. If MS has kept their own codecs royalty free, and also claimed support for FLAC, ogg, by default in WMP, that wouldn't happened.



No this was not the reason. Do u know that MS only sold 1500 OEM copies of Windows XP N Edition . It was the biggest OS failure in the history of Microsoft.

Here is the thing which you all should understand. "A software development company cannot bundle something they did not code with there product which relies on there product to work without testing it first & without giving it proper certification as it might create incompatibilities with the OS or other applications". If u go by this logic then Firefox is not at all a Windows Certified Browser, K-Mellon is.



> Whats wrong ? User still has freedom of choice whether to install or not install software.



As a user I don't wants wizards on my face like Linux during installation. Make it as simple as you can which Windows 7 installation is. I would even prefer them to remove the screen asking to set the time zone, it should take it automatically from my BIOS


----------



## desiibond (Jan 29, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> I said the same thing indirectly.
> Forcing such software on people is crap, but giving them an option, say in the installer menu, would make things much more cozy.



Oh. IE is so big that it will slow down the entire OS. I didn't know that. IE is as much essential to windows as WMP is, as explorer is, as notepad is.

There is a difference between bloatware and essential s/w



MetalheadGautham said:


> Whats wrong ? User still has freedom of choice whether to install or not install software.



Ejjactly. That is why IE is there so that right after installing, user can download any s/w that he/she wants from internet. And with HDD size so big and users getting more and more knowledgeable, all they have to do is one time download and install from disc. That, in my opinion is difficult to do in Linux, thanks to the technology called dependencies. 



MetalheadGautham said:


> How big ???



Will be around 2.8-2.9Gb for final release.


----------



## MetalheadGautham (Jan 29, 2009)

desiibond said:


> Oh. IE is so big that it will slow down the entire OS. I didn't know that. IE is as much essential to windows as WMP is, as explorer is, as notepad is.


What about those who use Firefox instead of IE, or those who use MPlayer instead of WMP or those who use Notepad++ instead of notepad ???

The question as I said before is why NOT provide an option to remove it. Providing an option to remove does NOT mean that it wouldn't be installed by default.

Essential software (IE, WMP, etc) should be installed with the OS but an option should exist to remove them.

Extra software (Movie Maker, Visual Studio, etc) should NOT be installed with the OS, but user should still get an option to install them from the OS disc.

All I need are OPTIONS, OPTIONS & OPTIONS.


> Ejjactly. That is why IE is there so that right after installing, user can download any s/w that he/she wants from internet. And with HDD size so big and users getting more and more knowledgeable, all they have to do is one time download and install from disc.


But why should there NOT be an option to remove IE ? THATS my question.



> That, in my opinion is difficult to do in Linux, thanks to the technology called dependencies.


Acutally, you CAN have statically compiled versions of software to make them portable. But nobody does it because it simply needn't be done, considering that linux is an OS for those with an internet connection or for those who need custom needs.



> Will be around 2.8-2.9Gb for final release.



Thats still not too high. Visual Studio Express is 0.9 GB. Remaining software wouldn't cross 0.4GB. And thats easily includable.


----------



## Liverpool_fan (Jan 29, 2009)

gxsaurav said:


> As a user I don't wants wizards on my face like Linux during installation. Make it as simple as you can which Windows 7 installation is.


How much is Windows 7 installation different than Windows Vista. If they can make it more simpler than Ubuntu's installation, I am really curious.
And No I wasn't talking of Wizard during installation, but rather a wizard that would launch with an icon: Connect to Internet in the desktop or when user loads an HTML file.



> I would even prefer them to remove the screen asking to set the time zone, it should take it automatically from my BIOS


Your BIOS has time zone?


----------



## gxsaurav (Jan 29, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> What about those who use Firefox instead of IE, or those who use MPlayer instead of WMP or those who use Notepad++ instead of notepad ???



Ok, install it yourself like U install something new using Synaptic.


> Essential software (IE, WMP, etc) should be installed with the OS but an option should exist to remove them.



Have u ever looked at Add/remove Windows Component in Control Panel?



> Extra software (Movie Maker, Visual Studio, etc) should NOT be installed with the OS, but user should still get an option to install them from the OS disc.



The version on the disk gets outdated soon so online installation is preferred.


> All I need are OPTIONS, OPTIONS & OPTIONS.
> But why should there NOT be an option to remove IE ? THATS my question.



U r a nutcase users, more option = more confusion = hassle to end user experience.



> Thats still not too high. Visual Studio Express is 0.9 GB. Remaining software wouldn't cross 0.4GB. And thats easily includable.



microsoft does not want to be sued by bundling any more of there apps with Windows.


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## Liverpool_fan (Jan 29, 2009)

gxsaurav said:


> U r a nutcase users, more option = more confusion = hassle to end user experience.


Are you serious?
Tell you what we should become a Cuba and have users only select one particular desktop computer. 
There would be:
Less Computer Choices == Less Confusion == Less Hassle


----------



## desiibond (Jan 29, 2009)

The number of users using IE+notepad+WMP is far far higher than those not using them and hence there is no reason to have them uninstalled. There is no need in the first place. They are built into the kernel and they don't pose any threat to resources.

yes. Linux is OS for those who can do lot of R&D. That is the reason why windows haS major market share. coz users don't want to spend more time resolving dependencies than working. That is where windows excels. Making everything simple to use. 
When IE+notepad+WMP is doing the job for many, whey should someone even consider it as monopoly. If someone else don't want to use it, let them get something else. As simple as that.

And it's designed by MS and they should have the right what to include and what not to, whether to have option to uninstall or not (which is already there for IE in EU).


----------



## Liverpool_fan (Jan 29, 2009)

desiibond said:


> When IE+notepad+WMP is doing the job for many, whey should someone even consider it as monopoly. If someone else don't want to use it, let them get something else. As simple as that.


The problem is people use these software and do not even know anything about other choices and the fact that the alternatives can increase their productivity by some factor.

Why shouldn't a user be made aware, particularly about Web Browser since it is such an INTEGRAL COMPONENT of an Operating System. 
Most people use IE6 at this time, and I am sure you'll agree they would been *much* better served if they knew about alternatives like Firefox, Opera or even that a much better update called IE7 (now IE8) is available.


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## MetalheadGautham (Jan 29, 2009)

^^Good point. I know many who start complaining of the issues with IE6 and curse Windows, without knowing that even IE7 exists.

Casual users tend to use what MS chooses for them in windows. Thats a fact.


----------



## desiibond (Jan 29, 2009)

Anurag_panda said:


> The problem is people use these software and do not even know anything about other choices and the fact that the alternatives can increase their productivity by some factor.
> 
> Why shouldn't a user be made aware, particularly about Web Browser since it is such an INTEGRAL COMPONENT of an Operating System.
> Most people use IE6 at this time, and I am sure you'll agree they would been *much* better served if they knew about alternatives like Firefox, Opera or even that a much better update called IE7 (now IE8) is available.



yes. Users must be made aware of other options. *But why should MS teach end users how to use the rival software*. IF others can't make users understand about alternatives, why should MS be blamed. They aren't good enough to market their products, why should MS do it for them.

If you have a company that is making huge profits on a product, will you advertise about your rivals product and say, hey you don't like my product, use my rivals product.

That sucks. Right?

And MS has already send IE7 over windows update and that means users should be well aware of IE7's existance.



MetalheadGautham said:


> ^^Good point. I know many who start complaining of the issues with IE6 and curse Windows, without knowing that even IE7 exists.



They should be knowledgeable enought to learn that there are alternatives and if they can't, it's not MS's headache



MetalheadGautham said:


> Casual users tend to use what MS chooses for them in windows. Thats a fact.



That's why they are called casual users. They are happy with what they have and they don't want to scratch their head thinking about alternatives.

Those who just want a browser are using IE and are happy.

Those who want to do lot of modifications are using FF and are happy and they do ignore IE.

It is companies like Opera (and SCO) that take sidetracks to gain advantage.  
Look at Firefox, they are not complainint about IE coming in windows. They are taking the competition to MS by doing things that MS never did. (tabs, plugins, addons). That is how the competition should be. You should not blame your competitor for your lack of progress.


----------



## Liverpool_fan (Jan 29, 2009)

^ ^ 
Well Microsoft Windows is not only simply a product of Microsoft. It's a platform,  it has become almost like a "standard", a "standard" which is prevalent in most of the desktops, and with that MS products like IE get an overwhelming advantage which they should rather get in the same difficulty that its rivals have, that is getting approval of the user's choice/marketing.
That is why there must be a choice particularly in Web Browsers as they seem to shape up the future of computing.



desiibond said:


> You should not blame your competitor for your lack of progress.


You should if you are yourself dependent on that rival as a platform.

Consider the analogy. What if Intel the largest CPU vendor decides to always integrate its Original line MB with its CPU, and sells, Don't you think companies like ASUS, MSI, etc. will complain?


----------



## desiibond (Jan 29, 2009)

Windows IS a product and is manufactured by MS. It has become like a standard, then why should we let EU sling dirt at it.

I can't say anything if you say that windows is not simply a product. MS is not doing charity here. It's business and in business, to excel you should not have emotions for your rivals. 

There always is a choice.

install windows. open IE, open download page and download the product. Save it to disc. Install the alternate product.

On subsequent installs, install the product from the disc.

What's wrong with this method???



Anurag_panda said:


> You should if you are yourself dependent on that rival as a platform.



Did Mozilla depend on MS when developing FF??



Anurag_panda said:


> Consider the analogy. What if Intel the largest CPU vendor decides to always integrate its Original line MB with its CPU, and sells, Don't you think companies like ASUS, MSI, etc. will complain?



This is a totally irrelevant comparison.

Consider this. Intel is selling it's own IGP and they are the market leaders. Did ATI/nVidia complain??

FYI, Intel is largest manufacturer of motherboards. But still ASUS and other 3rd party vendors are making business. That is because they are making their products better than Intel's and they are not licking EU's feet.

PS: combining cpu+mobo is like combining windows+office. And both will never happen as it is Intel/MS that will lose money.


----------



## Liverpool_fan (Jan 29, 2009)

desiibond said:


> Did Mozilla depend on MS when developing FF??


Well in the previous context, yes. i.e. Mozilla needs Windows to serve majority of users.



> This is a totally irrelevant comparison.
> 
> Consider this. Intel is selling it's own IGP and they are the market leaders. Did ATI/nVidia complain??


Maybe it was the wrong anology I made.



> FYI, Intel is largest manufacturer of motherboards. But still ASUS and other 3rd party vendors are making business. That is because they are making their products better than Intel's and they are not licking EU's feet.


I know. And Intel is doing well by their brand and quality and not by tying the CPU and MB. Also Intel releases chipsets for other vendors, don't they? Are they being charitable?
Opera on the other hand have been just so plain unlucky. Anybody who used Opera would realise it is the most underestimated software in the world.
And please... licking "EU's feet" is not a good statement. They only sued MS, they have legal rights don't they? It was upto EU to dismiss or entertain their request.



> PS: combining cpu+mobo is like combining windows+office. And both will never happen as it is Intel/MS that will lose money.


Umm...I guess my anology did not put my point across...

Now I am getting bit tired...Whether anything happens or not, I don't care much...either way...
I always keep more than few browsers in whichever OS I use, so I guess I am a bit or maybe a lot biased...


----------



## Ecko (Jan 29, 2009)

gxsaurav said:


> The other browsers are available to be installed in the Repository when the user wants but by default only Firefox or Konqurer is installed.
> 
> Well, in case of Windows, the other browsers are available to be installed when the user wants, but by default IE is installed.


People never see an option of installing Opera or Firefox 
Do they...!!!
Only noobs who dont care about anything use IE dese dayz 
Else more than 50% or people use Firefox
Atleast Windows would've a repository for browsers


----------



## din (Jan 29, 2009)

shri said:


> For ex a car accessories manufacturer may complain that the car maker is killing competition by selling cars with alloy wheels or mp3 player or fog lamps.



Aahh After years here comes the 'Car' again !!! LOL Gooooooooooooobi, where are you ?


----------



## desiibond (Jan 29, 2009)

Anurag_panda said:


> Well in the previous context, yes. i.e. Mozilla needs Windows to serve majority of users.



yes. they want windows to get market share. They didn't expect MS to remove IE to get market share, which is what Opera is trying to do.



Anurag_panda said:


> I know. And Intel is doing well by their brand and quality and not by tying the CPU and MB. Also Intel releases chipsets for other vendors, don't they? Are they being charitable?



And who is winning here? Intel or other vendor? Anyways, let's not go to other industries.

What happens if MS gives IE for linux. It will face the same fate that Opera will face if is bundled with windows.



Anurag_panda said:


> Opera on the other hand have been just so plain unlucky. Anybody who used Opera would realise it is the most underestimated software in the world.
> And please... licking "EU's feet" is not a good statement. They only sued MS, they have legal rights don't they? It was upto EU to dismiss or entertain their request.



yeah. Totally closed for 3rd party vendors. can't render many pages properly. Opera team has to open their doors before trying to enter into other territory. They don't let others to work on their product and they blame MS for monopoly. how lame!!!


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## Liverpool_fan (Jan 29, 2009)

desiibond said:


> What happens if MS gives IE for linux. It will face the same fate that Opera will face if is bundled with windows.


A few niche users would install it just to test their web pages. As an aspiring web developer it would save me some time from testing IE within Virtualised Windows.  It is unlikely it would succeed much beyond that, but if they make it good enough, a few users will use it.
But if Opera if is bundled in Windows, it would be accpepted as much as IE is now. People have a knack of keeping what is given to them. The usage of IE6 is the proof.



> yeah. Totally closed for 3rd party vendors. can't render many pages properly. Opera team has to open their doors before trying to enter into other territory. They don't let others to work on their product and they blame MS for monopoly. how lame!!!


Well closed...OK, but they are highly standards compliant browser. Opera 10 Alpha for instance is recognised for that just like its predecessor and gives 100/100 in Acid3 test. And though I hate to say this but rendering problem is mainly due to poor web development all around or developers not considering Opera.
But yes if they open their source code, then they'll PWN other browsers particularly Firefox (IMO)...


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jan 29, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> but they WILL know if they see ubuntuguide


If people can take the pains to see ubuntuguide then they sure can see Windows Market Place!



MetalheadGautham said:


> Let me guess: you have a 320GB HDD ?


Lets say I haf only 6GB hdd, if I remove IE how much space would I save? 50mb, 100mb??!!! Would that matter??!! Not for me, never for me!



desiibond said:


> The best way to keep windows share growing is by keeping it simple yet effective, light yet resourceful.


In fact, this applies to any software.



gxsaurav said:


> The version on the disk gets outdated soon so online installation is preferred.


This is a very valid point which goes against EU. Bundling 3rd party apps with Windows isn't such a good idea imho.



desiibond said:


> ...They are built into the kernel and they don't pose any threat to resources.


WTF??!!  Dude.. are you nuts??!!



desiibond said:


> Linux is OS for those who can do lot of R&D. That is the reason why windows haS major market share. coz users don't want to spend more time resolving dependencies than working. That is where windows excels. Making everything simple to use.


Do not agree with a single point! Linux is not for R&D. Its a great everyday desktop OS. Its the drivers which are causing adoption problems. If the hardware has proper drivers then installing any GNU/Linux (except Gentoo) comes next to Mac OS X in ease of installation (when I say ease of installation, I mean a fresh separate installation). People complain about installation only coz they wanna dual boot and hence manully need to partition.

Anyways, the post is going offtopic. I dunno who dragged Linux and open source in this discussion.



desiibond said:


> And it's designed by MS and they should have the right what to include and what not to, whether to have option to uninstall or not (which is already there for IE in EU).


No second thots on this! MS should haf every right to decide what to bundle and what not to.



desiibond said:


> Consider this. Intel is selling it's own IGP and they are the market leaders. Did ATI/nVidia complain??


In fact, anuraag's analogy is perfect. Think of it this way: Intel forcing every customer who buys Intel processors to get a motherboard with intel IGP. Then nVidia and ATi will cry for sure coz except the enthusiasts people never both about graphics. Thats a fact.



din said:


> Aahh After years here comes the 'Car' again !!! LOL Gooooooooooooobi, where are you ?


lol.. You bet 



desiibond said:


> can't render many pages properly....


Oh please! Opera is one of the most standards compliant browsers out there. This is coz many pages are built for "IE". Its not Opera's fault.


----------



## Ecko (Jan 29, 2009)

@desibond
Dude Opera was a paid browser 
What they fear probably is the same scene going in Linux market
Too much open source & you see a hundred of OSes flaunting 
BTW Opera holds fastest web page rendering records & is most compatible , less resource taking & smallest packaged web browser with IRC support
Not to mention that as far as I remember many of features Firefox lovers (I 2 like it) enjoy 2day are directly derieved from Opera (atleast the concepts)
What Internet Explorer is Bull$hit, without any user control totally aimed at advertising
Not even till today they have any feature that I can say even matches 1% with other browsers


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## desiibond (Jan 29, 2009)

infra_red_dude said:


> WTF??!!  Dude.. are you nuts??!!



I am perfectly all right.



infra_red_dude said:


> Do not agree with a single point! Linux is not for R&D. Its a great everyday desktop OS. Its the drivers which are causing adoption problems. If the hardware has proper drivers then installing any GNU/Linux (except Gentoo) comes next to Mac OS X in ease of installation (when I say ease of installation, I mean a fresh separate installation). People complain about installation only coz they wanna dual boot and hence manully need to partition.



I do know exactly the difference between windows and linux. I tried like hell to get my TV card working with it. I really missed TV and perfect media client when I used linux. It's not for those who want to have everything work out of the box.




infra_red_dude said:


> In fact, anuraag's analogy is perfect. Think of it this way: Intel forcing every customer who buys Intel processors to get a motherboard with intel IGP. Then nVidia and ATi will cry for sure coz except the enthusiasts people never both about graphics. Thats a fact.



Reason is not MS is not forcing you to use IE. You have option to user other browsers and if Intel saying that users should have their mobo with their CPU is like MS not allowing users to install any other web browser. THERE IS LOT OF DIFFERENCE.



infra_red_dude said:


> Oh please! Opera is one of the most standards compliant browsers out there. This is coz many pages are built for "IE". Its not Opera's fault.



The same pages work without any problem on numerous other browsers. safari/IE/FF. And if it doesn't work on Opera, it's IE's fault. GREAT!!!!


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## Liverpool_fan (Jan 29, 2009)

^ ^
Please no Linux v Windows debates. 

And no, not IE's fault entirely but MS fault to an extent for setting imcompatible standards (I still remember MSN's delibrate incompatibily with Opera early this decade to snuff them out) and more so of the developers fault for only focusing on IE or just Firefox and IE. 
And I dunno of any site which works in Safari(Webkit) and not in Opera.


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## gxsaurav (Jan 29, 2009)

Ecko said:


> Not even till today they have any feature that I can say even matches 1% with other browsers



Open multiple tabs in IE 7/8 & press Control+Q . This feature came long before Opera's speed dial


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## Ecko (Jan 29, 2009)

^^LoL derieved from Opera view tabs on mouse hover 
Innovate not Improvise


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## gxsaurav (Jan 29, 2009)

Ecko said:


> ^^LoL derieved from Opera view tabs on mouse hover



Opera view tab thumbnail came after IE 7 beta 1 was released. This I actually paid attention to in the past....


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## Ecko (Jan 29, 2009)

*i40.tinypic.com/24ordhx.jpg *files.myopera.com/Tamil/Smilies/Cop.gif 

*i41.tinypic.com/zl6sg5.jpg

*i43.tinypic.com/2mwa1ww.jpg*files.myopera.com/Tamil/Smilies/Tease.gif *files.myopera.com/Tamil/Smilies/Tease.gif



gxsaurav said:


> Opera view tab thumbnail came after IE 7 beta 1 was released. This I actually paid attention to in the past....


You should've paid attention to the beta before that
It was in that Beta


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## desiibond (Jan 29, 2009)

^^ using a browser based on ACID test??

seriously, I won't do that. 

I prefer a browser which is able to render 99% of webpages without any problem. I used opera for brief period and got irritated by some issues.

Now, I am using IE+FF, and sometimes for fast browsing, Chrome.



Anurag_panda said:


> ^ ^
> Please no Linux v Windows debates.
> 
> And no, not IE's fault entirely but MS fault to an extent for setting imcompatible standards (I still remember MSN's delibrate incompatibily with Opera early this decade to snuff them out) and more so of the developers fault for only focusing on IE or just Firefox and IE.
> And I dunno of any site which works in Safari(Webkit) and not in Opera.



Okay. sorry. my mistake. no win vs lin here. Let's concentrate only on windows.

Let's see. MS is making IE8 to be more in-line with ACID3 but let's see how that will effect the webpage rendering.


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## Liverpool_fan (Jan 29, 2009)

Well Acid3 is not the ultimate...but yes if a browser passes it means it is pretty much standardized and should not render improperly unless there is something web master has done...which is beyond Opera's control.
Opera is in itself perfect but unfortunately in this world perfection does not nessecarily stick to market demands.
Furthermore the Acid3 is not meant much for end users so as to use the browser on its account though...Frankly I don't use Opera based on Acid3 test but due to other features...now I'm going to discuss Opera...let's leave it here.
Some people are claiming IE8 to be more standards-compliant so let's see. It fails the Acid3 pretty badly...but let's not read much into that and hope IE8 indeed be standards compliant.

@Ecko: You have customized Opera layout quite well for IE/FF users. And is that 10 Alpha?


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## MetalheadGautham (Jan 29, 2009)

din said:


> Aahh After years here comes the 'Car' again !!! LOL Gooooooooooooobi, where are you ?


Hey, I didn't notice that. Nice find 


infra_red_dude said:


> If people can take the pains to see ubuntuguide then they sure can see Windows Market Place!


They are NOT the same. Windows online help center would be the equivalent of ubuntuguide.

Windows Market Place is more like the add/remove programs menu's highly primitive equivalent.



> Lets say I haf only 6GB hdd, if I remove IE how much space would I save? 50mb, 100mb??!!! Would that matter??!! Not for me, never for me!


You hit the nail without meaning to. It indeed DOES matter. Several small 50mb fragments saved can mean plenty of space. I know this especially because I struggle trying to fit my 100GB multimedia collection onto my 18GB Partition. I often end up wishing stuff like "if only there was 50 more MB, this whole album could have made it into the HDD".

Netbooks are more like portable entertainment gadgets than ordinary notebooks. The 50MB of Internet Explorer would mean a 96kbps LC-AAC RIP of Death Magnetic to some.



> In fact, this applies to any software.


Ekjacktly. Any OS when modular, light and less resource hungry, with an elegent interface, would be highly appealing to end-users.



> This is a very valid point which goes against EU. Bundling 3rd party apps with Windows isn't such a good idea imho.


But fact remains - 3rd party apps are ALREADY being bundled. Just check the number of assemblers back in the 2003-2006 era of extreme windows xp popularity. MOST of the OEMs bundle trial versions of Norton or McAfee antiviruses today, while back then, esp in India, it was rare to see a computer without winamp installed by the assembler.

The reason I find the EU ruling amusing is because they say people use whats bundled with the PC, but such people are almost ALWAYS users of OEM desktops or laptops. Its they who use whats bundled with the OS.

Those who legally buy a Retail copy of Windows are either enterprises, who KNOW whats good for them and whats bad, or WELL INFORMED USERS who buy windows because they like what it offers and they also know that they can install another program.

And hence its only the OEMs who create scenarios for AntiTrust violations, but they ALWAYS bundle trialware and tonnes of crap with the OS. So EU courts should ask all europian OEMs to bundle a handful of media players and web browsers instead of going after MS 




> No second thots on this! MS should haf every right to decide what to bundle and what not to.


I second that. Its unfair to IMPOSE something on MS. Users can have their opinions, but IMPOSING a rule like this is just not right.



Ecko said:


> @desibond
> *Dude Opera was a paid browser *
> What they fear probably is the same scene going in Linux market
> Too much open source & you see a hundred of OSes flaunting
> ...



The bolded part is exactly the reason why Opera is desprate to get at IE.

Already, they have gladly agreed to let several small distros like Vector Linux to bundle it despite the fact that its propiatary.
They are also maintaining a huge linux fanbase.

Because linux encourages choice by nature, and because KDE users don't have native firefox intergration, opera finds linux safer than windows.

Opera is made by a For-Profit Propiatary company. They need market share.

Hence they are firing away anti-trust lawsuits against Microsoft, in whose OS they obviously have a very tiny chance of succeeding.

DO you see Mozilla filing anti-trust lawsuits against MS ? They don't NEED to.






PS:

I realised this a few hours back:

THE main reason I found IE uncomfortable to use is because when only one tab is open it does not have a close button on the tab. And the tab bar is a bit too big and uses a lot of screen space.


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## iMav (Jan 29, 2009)

Anurag_panda said:


> The problem is people use these software and do not even know anything about other choices and the fact that the alternatives can increase their productivity by some factor.
> 
> Why shouldn't a user be made aware, particularly about Web Browser since it is such an INTEGRAL COMPONENT of an Operating System.
> Most people use IE6 at this time, and I am sure you'll agree they would been *much* better served if they knew about alternatives like Firefox, Opera or even that a much better update called IE7 (now IE8) is available.


err ... user aware? If you buy Vista, you get IE 7, why do I need to specifically beat a drum roll in that case?

And my friend, if you use something that is 6 years old & have Windows Update turned off, then, well ... no one can help you.


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## chooza (Jan 29, 2009)

Friends, I am very much confused to understand by going through all your posts. If FF has a very large market share and IE is losing ground fastly(as per ur comments) then where is need of such debate??? If MS bundle IE, you should be least bother about it becoz you dont use it and IF they remove it, then also you should be least bothered. Anyway,I had tested, my IE8(beta 2) and Opera 9.63 and FF 3.0.5(which I had removed) on www.bcheck.scanit.be/bcheck and found my IE is as safe as Opera and FF.


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## desiibond (Jan 29, 2009)

^^ Tell that to brainless idiots in EU


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## infra_red_dude (Jan 29, 2009)

desiibond said:


> I am perfectly all right.


You maybe  But saying that stuff like IE, notepad etc. 'are built into the kernel' is one of the most hilarious things I've heard!!!



desiibond said:


> I do know exactly the difference between windows and linux. I tried like hell to get my TV card working with it. I really missed TV and perfect media client when I used linux. It's not for those who want to have everything work out of the box.


Thats what I'm saying. Its the drivers that matter. Haf a driver for every hardware and any OS works just perfectly! But that doesn't make Linux an R&D only OS. Anyways, no point digressing.



desiibond said:


> Reason is not MS is not forcing you to use IE. You have option to user other browsers and if Intel saying that users should have their mobo with their CPU is like MS not allowing users to install any other web browser. THERE IS LOT OF DIFFERENCE.


My point is not that you are not allowed to, but that if intel stops selling processors and bundles CPU and mobo then I bet hardly the normal users would bother to look beyond the default combo.

Anyways, I'm against EU for its decision to impose such a decision on MS.



desiibond said:


> The same pages work without any problem on numerous other browsers. safari/IE/FF. And if it doesn't work on Opera, it's IE's fault. GREAT!!!!


Are you blind or something??!! Where did I say that its IE's fault??!!! Read my post fully. I said that those sites are mostly "built" for IE.



desiibond said:


> ^^ using a browser based on ACID test??


Not using a browser based on ACID test, but "rating" a browser. 



desiibond said:


> Let's see. MS is making IE8 to be more in-line with ACID3 but let's see how that will effect the webpage rendering.


That would NOT affect the page rendering. If IE is more in line with ACID tests, its the developers who would be happy.



chooza said:


> Friends, I am very much confused to understand by going through all your posts. If FF has a very large market share and IE is losing ground fastly(as per ur comments) then where is need of such debate??? If MS bundle IE, you should be least bother about it becoz you dont use it and IF they remove it, then also you should be least bothered.


I dunno about others but I am opposed to EU's decision.


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## Liverpool_fan (Jan 29, 2009)

chooza said:


> Friends, I am very much confused to understand by going through all your posts. If FF has a very large market share and IE is losing ground fastly(as per ur comments) then where is need of such debate??? If MS bundle IE, you should be least bother about it becoz you dont use it and IF they remove it, then also you should be least bothered. Anyway,I had tested, my IE8(beta 2) and Opera 9.63 and FF 3.0.5(which I had removed) on www.bcheck.scanit.be/bcheck and found my IE is as safe as Opera and FF.



That link is broken remove the "www" and it'll work. Also interesting test.


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## MetalheadGautham (Jan 30, 2009)

infra_red_dude said:


> My point is not that you are not allowed to, but that if intel stops selling processors and bundles CPU and mobo then I bet hardly the normal users would bother to look beyond the default combo.



So you are saying that EU should sue Intel Atom ? 



> I dunno about others but I am opposed to EU's decision.





desiibond said:


> ^^ Tell that to brainless idiots in EU



Then I guess most of us are unified in our stand that the EU ruling is flawed.

But nobody answered my question - WHAT ABOUT OEMs ? EU never targets any of them, when, even if we go by EU's own logic, its the OEMs who should be asked to bundle a zillion extra software, AND, most importantly, offer OTHER OSes.



MetalheadGautham said:


> But fact remains - 3rd party apps are ALREADY being bundled. Just check the number of assemblers back in the 2003-2006 era of extreme windows xp popularity. MOST of the OEMs bundle trial versions of Norton or McAfee antiviruses today, while back then, esp in India, it was rare to see a computer without winamp installed by the assembler.
> 
> The reason I find the EU ruling amusing is because they say people use whats bundled with the PC, but such people are almost ALWAYS users of OEM desktops or laptops. Its they who use whats bundled with the OS.
> 
> ...


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## Ecko (Jan 30, 2009)

Guyz I want that Microsoft must give users option as in case of linux
Atleast they must tell their users that you have these browsers also that u can choose from .I've no problems in Internet Explorer to be default till the user knows that he can switch between browsers like Opera FF & Safari (.... 
Let There be light ............!!!


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## chooza (Jan 30, 2009)

Anurag_panda said:


> That link is broken remove the "www" and it'll work. Also interesting test.



Sorry buddy. Its My fault. 

I think, the problem with Eu is , they had tasted Blood and they know that the comapny which can pay huge money is only Microsoft. So, they are again and again doing the same which they started from Windows 98. The 98 is Deadbut Eu dont. and also they know that no OEM manufacture is going to pay them any amount. they had tried many times, either with Samsung,Sony,etc.that's why they do not ask them to remove IE or Bundle some other. BHAIYA PAISA AA RAHA HAI MAUJ MASTI KE LIYE.


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## desiibond (Jan 30, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> But nobody answered my question - WHAT ABOUT OEMs ? EU never targets any of them, when, even if we go by EU's own logic, its the OEMs who should be asked to bundle a zillion extra software, AND, most importantly, offer OTHER OSes.



I do agree to this point. Also, why should I pay for new OS license everytime I get a new laptop/PC (branded). There should be option to select OS or no OS with every branded pc/laptop. 

I will certainly support EU if they start a ruling for this particular point


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## MetalheadGautham (Jan 30, 2009)

desiibond said:


> I do agree to this point. Also, why should I pay for new OS license everytime I get a new laptop/PC (branded). There should be option to select OS or no OS with every branded pc/laptop.
> 
> I will certainly support EU if they start a ruling for this particular point


Thanks for agreeing to something at last. 

Anyway, I personally think this is the REAL antitrust violation. Forcibly asking a customer to buy a product and allowing no way of returning it.

Also, due to the OEM licensing policy, if your rig has reached warranty expiry and it bails out on you, and the system becomes a mass of plastic+metals+semiconductors, you are lot allowed to use the license on another machine. You are also not allowed to transfer license to another machine.

Tell me, is that fair at all ?

Windows in its current state is not at all at fault. Considering all the intergration factors, I too would actually prefer Windows Vista with IE7 and WMP11 than without them, atleast when BUYING a copy for myself.

I feel that EU is targeting the wrong people by sueing microsoft.


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## desiibond (Jan 30, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> Thanks for agreeing to something at last.
> 
> Anyway, I personally think this is the REAL antitrust violation. Forcibly asking a customer to buy a product and allowing no way of returning it.




)


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## iMav (Jan 30, 2009)

Ecko said:


> Guyz I want that Microsoft must give users option as in case of linux


Options? Can't you install FF or opera or Safari or Chrome & set it as your default browser? 





Ecko said:


> Atleast they must tell their users that you have these browsers also that u can choose from .I've no problems in Internet Explorer to be default till the user knows that he can switch between browsers like Opera FF & Safari


So what you want is that microsft should be advertising about rival products? lol Sometimes people crack some amazing one liners. 

PS: Don't people think before they give suggestiopns anymore?


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## infra_red_dude (Jan 30, 2009)

IMHO, Let MS bundle whatever they want. Afterall its their OS and I believe they haf the right to do whatever they wanna do with it. Let them make an interface for Windows MarketPlace (after renaming it to Windows Software Center or something likewise) and place a shortcut on the Desktop upon a new installation which lists software by Categories (Essential software, web, email, graphics etc. like whatever they haf on the website now).

This would be a win-win situation for all. This way the new users would wanna browse thru the link out of curiosity and can install whatever they can since it would certainly educate them about other products; and MS would still be able to bundle IE with Windows. Everybody's is happy, including the EU (hopefully )


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## Liverpool_fan (Jan 30, 2009)

desiibond said:


> I do agree to this point. Also, why should I pay for new OS license everytime I get a new laptop/PC (branded). There should be option to select OS or no OS with every branded pc/laptop.
> 
> I will certainly support EU if they start a ruling for this particular point


Can't agree more to this point. 

Also OEMs should be forced to provide install disks, for god sake ALWAYS and not charge extra.


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## RCuber (Jan 30, 2009)

offtopic!!! 

@Infra WTF!! you alive!!


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## infra_red_dude (Jan 31, 2009)

@offtopic
Charan... naah.. I'm dead.. rotting in hell with my laptop and an internet connection


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## Ecko (Feb 1, 2009)

iMav said:


> Options? Can't you install FF or opera or Safari or Chrome & set it as your default browser? So what you want is that microsft should be advertising about rival products? lol Sometimes people crack some amazing one liners.


Atleast then they shouldn't depend on other to launch products
Launch now :
Micro$oft Dreamweaver
Micr0$oft Flash
Micro$oft CCleaner
Micro$oft Spyware Doctor

If this is the case then lets start "Kill The Micro$oft Campaign" 

PS:Billy Went But Left His *Chelaas*


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## desiibond (Feb 1, 2009)

^^Do you have any idea what you are saying??


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## MetalheadGautham (Feb 1, 2009)

^^+1. this is getting seriously hillarious.


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## Liverpool_fan (Feb 1, 2009)

Ecko said:


> Atleast then they shouldn't depend on other to launch products
> Launch now :
> Micro$oft Dreamweaver
> Micr0$oft Flash
> ...



Dreamweaver has MS FrontPage as alternative, while Flash has Silverlight, CCleaner and Spyware Doctor also have MS alternatives too which I am not aware of.



MetalheadGautham said:


> Then I guess most of us are unified in our stand that the EU ruling is flawed.


Not me. I support EU regarding this decision.


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## a_k_s_h_a_y (Feb 1, 2009)

LOL !! EU Gov Suckers. I Will create my legit product and sell, why should EU force to compulsorily use competitors product ??

Its as if IE id hope less thing.

Customization should be done by the VENDOR. Not MS.
Crap EU understands nothing about business.

And I hate firefox, if it takes over as most used browser...

Its about time to forget about blogs and self made content. It will kill small and medium size websites.
Thanks Ad blocker.

I already loose 50% of my money due to Adblocks  as more then 60% of my visitors use FireFox, My low budget servers are being tested to core they go down a lot of times due to traffic.


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## Liverpool_fan (Feb 1, 2009)

a_k_s_h_a_y said:


> LOL !! EU Gov Suckers. I Will create my legit product and sell, why should EU force to compulsorily use competitors product ??
> 
> Its as if IE id hope less thing.
> 
> ...


Wow! And you blame Firefox for that? Wow!


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## gxsaurav (Feb 1, 2009)

Anurag_panda said:


> Dreamweaver has MS FrontPage as alternative



No, its Expression Web now.



> CCleaner and Spyware Doctor also have MS alternatives too which I am not aware of.



Windows defender & Inbuilt temp file cleaner


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## apoorva84 (Feb 1, 2009)

i think they should stop bundling software like windows defender, paint, windows media player , IE, etc and let users decide.


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## Liverpool_fan (Feb 1, 2009)

apoorva84 said:


> i think they should stop bundling software like windows defender, paint, windows media player , IE, etc and let users decide.



Actually I would disagree here since that would really degrade the usability of Windows OS.
They can continue bundling those software but:
(1) Give option of alternatives to users who are not aware of the alternatives i.e. either bundling other browser such as Firefox, Opera or have a redirection at Welcome Center about alternative web browsers.
(2) Give option to remove IE's front end competely. The back end may stay.
(3) Follow Web Standards really seriously, like Opera does.

I have said the same thing I said before in this thread. This thread is now really becoming a Recurring Discussion.


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## MetalheadGautham (Feb 1, 2009)

a_k_s_h_a_y said:


> LOL !! EU Gov Suckers. I Will create my legit product and sell, why should EU force to compulsorily use competitors product ??
> 
> Its as if IE id hope less thing.
> 
> ...


I agree, but remember that EU did not bring this ruling because of IE's hopelessness, but because they have strange laws from the Dark Ages about competition and what not.



> And I hate firefox, if it takes over as most used browser...
> 
> Its about time to forget about blogs and self made content. It will kill small and medium size websites.
> Thanks Ad blocker.
> ...


Its not as if everyone who uses adblock would click ads if they stop using adblock.
Almost ALL who use adblock don't click on ads.
And many more do something worse - use RIP to remove the frame in which the ad is placed.

And remember, Ad Blocking is not restricted to Firefox. LOTS of people who use IE as a prefered browser use some adblocker program, and I think IE-Pro also has an adblocker program.

You just need to stop assuming that ads can bring you lots of income. They are just bonus money these days. Relying on ads is possibly the WORST way to secure your economic life.


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## a_k_s_h_a_y (Feb 1, 2009)

Anurag_panda said:


> Wow! And you blame Firefox for that? Wow!



Kid, why don't you go read Economic Times or Something news paper like that ?
Go to their website and search in their archive.

And yeah, am not blaming direct on firefox. Its for now. 
As of now Idiots at google are lazy and don't want to invent new ways of delivering ads as you see Firefox is still not the top browser.
That's why Adblock works Only a matter of time..


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## Liverpool_fan (Feb 1, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> Its not as if everyone who uses adblock would click ads if they stop using adblock.
> Almost ALL who use adblock don't click on ads.
> And many more do something worse - use RIP to remove the frame in which the ad is placed.
> 
> ...



+1
And Opera would be even worse. It has content blocker by default.


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## a_k_s_h_a_y (Feb 1, 2009)

FYI, Most of The Internet Economy is based on Advertising.

Well, you don't post random stuff, what you know. Go read what researchers have to say.
Not what half knowledgeable people at such ... Forums say.
Let AdSense be closed, And Lets all see how long Google Will survive.

All this though if completely different from Firefox being a nice web browser. Which most of people around here agree.


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## Faun (Feb 1, 2009)

It's like saying piracy costs the developers. In fact there are lots of non tech people to whom even if you give firefox they will switch back to IE or use the firefox without any urge of adding adblock plus.

Its the 10% guys like us who use Adblock Plus and blah blah blah.

Ads are one of the primary way today to earn a living. You see ads in moile, even if you do a balance inquiry. Whole thing is a fckuing add. I don't mind seeing ads but seeing them interfering your boring life every minute is like a big NO for me.


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## blondie (Feb 1, 2009)

a_k_s_h_a_y said:


> LOL !! EU Gov Suckers. I Will create my legit product and sell, why should EU force to compulsorily use competitors product ??
> 
> Its as if IE id hope less thing.
> 
> ...



Ha what an assumption.

1) If your life depended on your two dollar website and it's ads, you have no business being online at all, no, never, nil, none... you need to get a _real_ job.

2) Do you really believe I (as in not me) would come to _your_ blog out of a million ones out there to click on your ads?

You need to wake up from whatever dream you are sleeping on my friend.

And don't give the pages of mags or newspapers as facts, they are nothing but a corporate gimmick to keep the middle class in their levels and the poor class at theirs, so the middle ones can feel good about themselves by looking at the poor ones and forget there is a rich level too who _really_ control their lives.

Personally I would want to see Firefox kickass of every other browser out there.


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## Ecko (Feb 1, 2009)

Anurag_panda said:


> Dreamweaver has MS FrontPage as alternative, while Flash has Silverlight, CCleaner and Spyware Doctor also have MS alternatives too which I am not aware of.
> 
> 
> Not me. I support EU regarding this decision.



Ya I too support EU
Alo Spyware Doctor is Windows Defender 
But Microsoft is also forcing people in that case & if they aren;t that whatever


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## a_k_s_h_a_y (Feb 1, 2009)

I would love to see IE evolve beyond and Firefox Compete it. As the alternate.



blondie said:


> Ha what an assumption.
> 
> 1) If your life depended on your two dollar website and it's ads, you have no business being online at all, no, never, nil, none... you need to get a _real_ job.
> 
> ...



Ahh you are such a god sent genius. Thanks for enlightening me


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## adi007 (Feb 1, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> I agree, but remember that EU did not bring this ruling because of IE's hopelessness, but because they have strange laws from the Dark Ages about competition and what not.
> 
> 
> Its not as if everyone who uses adblock would click ads if they stop using adblock.
> ...



I agree with your first point that those who are aware of adblocker are some what techy people and even if they dont block ads they will possibly not get attracted and click that ad

But my friend do u know that there is thing called CPM,CPI,CPV etc .. 


> You just need to stop assuming that ads can bring you lots of income. They are just bonus money these days. Relying on ads is possibly the WORST way to secure your economic life.



Amit Agarwal india's top blogger earns XX,XXX $ /month from his site labnol
Jim kartel(i hope i am correct) and many others are pro in these fields

many are making a living out of it
I have read somewhere that adsense and adwords from google alone forms the major income source of google..

And why the hell should MS bundle other browsers which are not made by them ...
Its their OS ... they are free to do anything .. 
And BTW i am n00b in this EU thing .. i dont understand who is suing MS ..? Is it a Public Interest Case ..?


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## MetalheadGautham (Feb 2, 2009)

adi007 said:


> But my friend do u know that there is thing called CPM,CPI,CPV etc ..


What ? 



> Amit Agarwal india's top blogger earns XX,XXX $ /month from his site labnol
> Jim kartel(i hope i am correct) and many others are pro in these fields
> 
> many are making a living out of it
> I have read somewhere that adsense and adwords from google alone forms the major income source of google..



Not everybody is an Amit Agarwal. He too did not start by starting a blog and putting his life on it. He just became successful and there may be many who write better but are not heard. Internet is a harsh place.

And yeah, google's case is different. COMPLETELY different. They don't advertise a handful of companies on a single blog. Their network is so big and spread out. Try to get details on how much they earn PER blog and you will get a closer picture to reality.



> And why the hell should MS bundle other browsers which are not made by them ...
> Its their OS ... they are free to do anything ..
> And BTW i am n00b in this EU thing .. i dont understand who is suing MS ..? Is it a Public Interest Case ..?


join the club.
and yeah, its Opera who are Suing MS in europian courts, while it was Real who sued MS previously for WMP.


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## Faun (Feb 2, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> What ?
> 
> 
> 
> Not everybody is an Amit Agarwal. He too did not start by starting a blog and putting his life on it. He just became successful and there may be *many who write better but are not heard*. Internet is a harsh place.


Yeah, brutal business skillz


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## squid (Jun 12, 2009)

*Windows 7 to ship without IE browser in Europe: Microsoft*

Due to legal problems Microsoft has decided to strip IE from Win 7 in European union. Users got to install browser of their choice. 

Source
*economictimes.indiatimes.com/Windo...E-in-Europe-Microsoft/articleshow/4649350.cms

Most probably Firefox, chrome and opera share will rise significantly at least in EU


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