# Who says Vista is a flop????



## kirangp (Mar 27, 2007)

Windows Vista has only been out in general consumer release for a month, but already Microsoft is touting it as the best-selling version of Windows ever released. The company announced that Vista sales—licenses sold to PC manufacturers, copies sold to retailers, and upgrades ordered through the Windows Vista Express Upgrade program—have exceeded 20 million copies. Microsoft says that this is represents a "more than doubling" of the initial pace of Windows XP sales, which reached only 17 million in January 2002, after two months on the market.

                         For complete info here is the source


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## iMav (Mar 27, 2007)

bole toh sahi hai bidu


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## nepcker (Mar 27, 2007)

While attending a shareholder and Wall Street analyst conference in New York at the end of the past week, Ballmer told analysts to temper their “overly aggressive” Windows Vista forecasts. During the Financial Analyst Briefing - New York City, Thursday, February 15, 2007, Ballmer said: “I'm really excited on how enthusiastic everybody is about Vista. I, too, am very enthusiastic about Vista. But I think sometimes the enthusiasm about this great product and the excitement and the launch, people have to understand our revenue models because I think some of the revenue forecasts I've seen out there for Windows Vista in fiscal year '08 are overly aggressive.”

Check out: *news.softpedia.com/news/Gates-039-Incredible-Vista-Reception-Contradicts-Ballmer-47673.shtml


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## shantanu (Mar 27, 2007)

in 1.5% of  total world population... and 3% are OSS users, means just half way in 2 months... and this proves that in one year it will be a huge hit, surely some people do critisize Vista , for many reason that are currenly being resolved, but the main thing is that Vista's Kernel is so powerfull that it will surely overtake the market in quite a small time... 

Its the best i have experienced, cant say about anything else i have not used, but if MAC was better then why only 5.3% of whole worlds population uses it. and nearly 85 % in now windows XP and somewhat 7 % in other windows OS(win98, 95 & me) etc. while, the percentages i said above may varry by points per day, but approx. it this only... so everyone knows whats best...


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## cvvikram (Mar 27, 2007)

Good Info...thanks for sharing


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## nepcker (Mar 27, 2007)

In all fairness, while the reliability feedback might as well be better than Microsoft has predicted, the Vista sales are not. This because Steve Ballmer, on the same occasion as the operating system's launch, has revealed that Microsoft is expecting Vista to have an adoption rate double than that of Windows XP. But the fact of the matter is that Windows Vista has failed to outperform XP in terms of sales.


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## shantanu (Mar 27, 2007)

your main reason to say this Mr. Nepcker is that you are a APPLE FANBOY, so go on.. i also learnt not to argue with fanboys,,,


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## amitava82 (Mar 27, 2007)

when a product is monopolistic in nature, there is no point of arguing that it will be 'flop' or 'winner' because in this scenario its the 'product which controls the market Not the 'product'. So the result is obvious. because majority of the consumers don't have any choice.


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## iMav (Mar 27, 2007)

hey shantanu let it be ... its 1-2 months its launched half the comps are not capable of running what lese does 1 expect ... the scene is gonna be different after 6 months ppl buying new pcs will certainly go for the vista (fanboys will comment that the cost is blah and customers will look at macs) but the MS mindset will prevail long ahead simply coz ... they offer a wider range of services such as xbox integration, zune, and all its all inter connected and thats how ppl like it ... integration between device ... so vista will stand tall as all MS OSs have over time



			
				amitava82 said:
			
		

> of the consumers don't have any choice.


 who says they dont have choice ... u can anytime opt for the mac or linux no 1 is holding a gun to ur head wen u buy a new pc saying that use vista or il shoot u


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## abhi1301 (Mar 27, 2007)

mAV3 said:
			
		

> who says they dont have choice ... u can anytime opt for the mac or linux no 1 is holding a gun to ur head wen u buy a new pc saying that use vista or il shoot u




This is really AMUSING :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:


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## amitava82 (Mar 27, 2007)

Listen pal i don't have any intention to fight. whether u agree or not its a economic fact.. if you have little interest in economics then it will be easy for you to understand. what i said is * "because majority of the consumers don't have any choice." *. imho 90% of computer users dont know how to use linux. for many people mac is costly. For example in India people dont by PC equipped with 7600GT majority of people go for a pc ranging 15 to 25K. they dont even pay for OS. some of them don't know what piracy is or their mindset is "Why would i pay for a OS when i can copy for 50 bucks?" Don't forget its the "piracy" that lead Windows to Monopoly.

Let me give some practical  example how i don't have any choice:

1. My trading company use "Microsoft virtual machine" applet for online trading system. they don't use Java which is open to all OS. because they think this world have only one OS. this is an effect of windows monopoly.

2. My bank's online payment service (HDFC) only works with Internet explorer.

3. I want to schedule a visa appointment with US embassy. its a online procedure. but their site only works with IE.

3. I can not play my favorite games in my linux box.

this is just few example out of hundreds. this is where i don't have any choice.


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## kirangp (Mar 27, 2007)

From now onwards one thing is guarantee that most new PCs will be equipped with Windows Vista & hardly anyone would use XP....This was the same case when XP came out..It really picked up steam after 3-4 months of release & all due to laptops,branded PCs...


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## mediator (Mar 27, 2007)

^Most new pcs may or may not be equipped with VISTA. "Guranteed".....doesn't fit ur statement!
*www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS8382062536.html
*www.techspot.com/news/24406-dell-customers-demand-linux.html
*www.linux-watch.com/news/NS8999809360.html


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## Ankur Mittal (Mar 27, 2007)

Unless the Windows Vista cracks are stopped Windows Vista is surely a flop.


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## kirangp (Mar 27, 2007)

Well I should put my statement in a different way....Most users(upgrading or buying a new PC) will opt for a Windows Vista PC....This time I can add guarantee to it


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## gxsaurav (Mar 27, 2007)

Ahem...so many misconceptions



			
				amitava82 said:
			
		

> Listen pal i don't have any intention to fight. whether u agree or not its a economic fact.. if you have little interest in economics then it will be easy for you to understand. what i said is "because majority of the consumers don't have any choice."  *imho 90% of computer users dont know how to use linux.*


 
So, whose fault is that

1) Is it PC Manufacturers? Who like to install an OS for there customars with maximum support available in terms of software & hardware drivers.

2) Is it the Linux community which despite of being good is yet not user friendly or feature based enough to excite the Average Joe. hell, he know how to use computer & for him an OS = Windows. Grow up dude, *Windows is the standerd in OS out there, other brands & companies colloborate with it to work together. No one is beating anyone here. It is not the fault of MS* .



			
				amitava82 said:
			
		

> they dont even pay for OS. some of them don't know what piracy is or their mindset is "Why would i pay for a OS when i can copy for 50 bucks?" Don't forget its the "piracy" that lead Windows to Monopoly.


 
hmm, Piracy is a problem in India. What about Europe or U.S.A., it is not such a big problem there right? So why do people still buy Windows there & only a few try linux.



> 1. My trading company use "Microsoft virtual machine" applet for online trading system. they don't use Java which is open to all OS. because they think this world have only one OS. this is an effect of windows monopoly.


 
Wait wait, so? you are getting your work done, what do u care for? Doing your work or bashing the company for not using JAVA.

Oh & I don't think I need to tell u how slow Java is. If they use it & it is slow, still you will bash the company saying it is such a slow system. The company uses MS VM cos it is fast & just works with there machines or system out there fine. *It is not there fault that Windows is fulfilling all there needs
*


> 2. My bank's online payment service (HDFC) only works with Internet explorer.


 
Umm....so this is the fault of Microsoft that HDFC has not developed a standerd complient website? Wow, talk about blaiming someone else just so that you look good.



> 3. I want to schedule a visa appointment with US embassy. its a online procedure. but their site only works with IE.


 
Again, is it the fault of MS? Yo dude, go talk to U.S. Embassy not to MS. They made a product now what the embassy uses is there decision. Why are you blaming MS for making a system that the embassy find suitable for there needs. Plz provide them a feedback. We did the same few years ago when the site of IGNOU had problems with Firefox



> 3. I can not play my favorite games in my linux box.


 
Which is again a problem due to MS, right. U make me laugh  . That game is made for Windows operating system, obviously it won't work in Linux. Do you expect to use a honda unicorn tire in CBZ Extreme?



> this is just few example out of hundreds. this is where i don't have any choice


 
So, is this the fault of MS that Windows is the most dominent OS out there, which is supported by maximum number of users & caters the maximum number of market share for which the developers know that there product will sale?



			
				meditator said:
			
		

> ^Most new pcs may or may not be equipped with VISTA. "Guranteed".....doesn't fit ur statement!


 
Again, it is the choice of manufacturers what OS they give. is it a fashion tto blame MS for everything?

There was a nuclear blast in Africa some days ago , MS is to be blamed cos there OS which was running a bugged software from the Nuclear plant authority, crashed giving a BSOD.

if MS goes the Apple Mac way, closed system in which the hardware & software are fixed then trust me, Linux will roll on ground cos then the OS will be optimized for the hardware & full support for drivers etc with no crash.


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## amitava82 (Mar 27, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> if MS goes the Apple Mac way, closed system in which the hardware & software are fixed then trust me, Linux will roll on ground cos then the OS will be optimized for the hardware & full support for drivers etc with no crash.



I completely agree with this point. Thats the whole point of MS Success, monopoly and Root of all the problem i've mentioned. 3rd party company don't bother to support other OS because they make enough money from 90% of world's PC users using Windows. And you can not force them to do that. its like "you don't want to use windows, don't use our product or don't ask for support". had the ratio been 50-50 the scenario would have been different. and thats we want to do. we just want support for our OS. we don't want to bury Windows. but believe me if this happens i.e., if we could do the same job in Linux or Mac like Windows, that will happen automatically.


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## gxsaurav (Mar 27, 2007)

Well, like I said many times, Linux has no standerd yet. There are so many distributions to support by a company


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## mediator (Mar 27, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Again, it is the choice of manufacturers what OS they give. is it a fashion tto blame MS for everything?


Can u point out where exactly I put the blame on MS here and for what?


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## gxsaurav (Mar 27, 2007)

^^^^^^^

I didn't say u r blaming, i said it on a general thought here. Blame MS for everything, its not there fault that there products are so user friendly & widely accepted.


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## aryayush (Mar 27, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Do you expect to use a honda unicorn tire in CBZ Extreme?


That's quite easily possible actually.


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## shantanu (Mar 27, 2007)

Windows is for improvement and technology enhancements, for proper learning and user friendly envoirment with lots of features and a great support, regular updates and Plus pacakages... a lot easier then anything...
_______________________________________________________________

Linux or OSS are for productivity and Core developement..
_______________________________________________________________

MAcs !!! they are just for ARYA YUSH 
_______________________________________________________________

PS: dont take it personally, its just a joke


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## amitava82 (Mar 27, 2007)

i never said their products are not user friendly. They are user friendly compared to Linux. but they are over priced. don't u agree?


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## shantanu (Mar 27, 2007)

no windows products are not overpriced... never...

remember it a Close source software , and not OSS... then they give you full support... look at macs.. what a MAc OS costs to you.. and then look at windows..

even you can run MACos on a PC, but running any other OS on a MAC is quite a headache with many Problem... and for that also Microsoft is releasing software to help Apple Cope up there losses... 
Microsoft designs hardware for MAC, and software editions for MACs... 

what does LINUX and MAC make for them??


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## aryayush (Mar 27, 2007)

shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> look at macs.. what a MAc OS costs to you.. and then look at windows..


The full fledged version of Mac OS X "Tiger" is cheaper than the cheapest, absolutely crippled and practically unusable version of Windows Vista.



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> even you can run MACos on a PC, but running any other OS on a MAC is quite a headache with many Problem


Actually, it is just the opposite.
"even you can run Windows and Linux on a MAC, but running MACos on a PC is quite a headache with many Problem"



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> and for that also Microsoft is releasing software to help Apple Cope up there losses...
> Microsoft designs hardware for MAC, and software editions for MACs...


Make no mistake, Microsoft makes software for Mac because it is profitable for them. They are not running on losses to support Macs. LOL!



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> what does LINUX and MAC make for them??


Yeah, Linux developers should surely spend time and resources making software for Windows. After all, Microsoft is so helpful and co-operative towards the open source movement. LOL!


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## shantanu (Mar 27, 2007)

> Actually, it is just the opposite.
> "even you can run Windows and Linux on a MAC, but running MACos on a PC is quite a headache with many Problem"


and Its not easy to install Windows on MAC, it has been made easy by M$.. 



> Yeah, Linux developers should surely spend time and resources making software for Windows. After all, Microsoft is so helpful and co-operative towards the open source movement. LOL!



why not apple.. why only linux.. and yes they shoudl provide some compatiblity other than partition load up...



> The full fledged version of Mac OS X "Tiger" is cheaper than the cheapest, absolutely crippled and practically unusable version of Windows Vista


what you mean by practically unusable windows of Vista.. ??
cant understand... ?


> Make no mistake, Microsoft makes software for Mac because it is profitable for them. They are not running on losses to support Macs. LOL


Mr. MAC they MAc is running into loss.. just see the sensex and then you will notice.. 

and by the way , present some thing extra ordinary in order to beat M$... your Apples arrent even occupying 10% of the worlds population... wat say in this... if they are so good then , whay the hell people dont buy them....

i never tried to insult apple coz next month i will too be a APPLE Owner.. but that does not change the reality that windows is the best OS for masses... and simply gr8....

and it cant make a difference if you keep on quoting me...


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## amitava82 (Mar 27, 2007)

Dude there are Thousands of Open source softwares which are available for both Linux and Windows even for Mac. I don't know if there is any software by MS  for Linux or any software which is absolutely for FREE. if its there definitely for their own profit.  At least mac makes iTune for windows though it is to support iPod. what about media player?


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## shantanu (Mar 27, 2007)

media player is also for MAC, and IE is also for MAc, i can give you a whole list for the softwares supporting MAC by M$...and many are under development...


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## kirangp (Mar 27, 2007)

Oh no not another Windows vs MAC thread


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## iMav (Mar 27, 2007)

this how it shud be read:


			
				amitava82 said:
			
		

> iTune for windows though it is to support iPod.





			
				amitava82 said:
			
		

> its there definitely for their own profit.


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## mediator (Mar 27, 2007)

shantanu_Webmaster said:
			
		

> Windows is for improvement and technology enhancements, for proper learning and user friendly envoirment with lots of features and a great support, regular updates and Plus pacakages... a lot easier then anything...
> __________________________________________________ _____________
> 
> Linux or OSS are for productivity and Core developement..
> ...


These r called typical fanboy comments and statements from a person who has never experienced other platforms or just rely on the advice and statements of rumour mongers. Even in jokes u shudn't take names!! 



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> remember it a Close source software , and not OSS... then they give you full support... look at macs.. what a MAc OS costs to you.. and then look at windows..


I know its a closed source OS, but u r saying ignorantly like full support isn't given for OSS. I wonder how majority servers employing Linux have survived then! And yea I look at windows and last thing I can recall is that MS was apologising for serving malwares!



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> what does LINUX and MAC make for them??


Please visit *sourceforge.net and count the number of applications/free softwares if u can! Similarly I want to ask that Linux supports Windows partitions that too by default, y doesn't windows supports linux partitions? Improvements and technology enhancement like u said??


As someone said "Half gathered knowledge is really dangerous"! I never spoke about Mac coz I never experienced it, may u shud do the same regarding GNU/Linux and Mac tooo. I know u work for MS corps coz ur earlier avatar told the whole story, but u shudn't really become a fanboy then.

PS: dont take it personally, its just a....  !


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## anandk (Mar 27, 2007)

Microsoft sells 20 million Vista licenses

Windows Vista is off to a fast start, having sold more than 20million copies since its January 30 consumer release. 

*news.com.com/Microsoft+sells+20+million+Vista+licenses/2100-1016_3-6170426.html?tag=nl.e703


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## aryayush (Mar 27, 2007)

shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> and Its not easy to install Windows on MAC, it has been made easy by M$..


WTH are you talking about! Microsoft has made it easy for people to install Windows on a Mac? Are you on crack! 



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> why not apple.. why only linux.. and yes they shoudl provide some compatiblity other than partition load up...


I was being sarcastic. Open source developers are being very generous by developing software for Windows. Amitava is correct. Given Microsoft's behaviour towards the open source community, they do not deserve anything from open source.



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> what you mean by practically unusable windows of Vista.. ??
> cant understand... ?


I meant the Home Basic version. Even that is more expensive than Mac OS X 10.4 "Tiger".



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> Mr. MAC they MAc is running into loss.. just see the sensex and then you will notice..


Apple has not posted a single quarterly loss ever since Steve Jobs brought about the first profitable quarter. Mac sales are continuously on the rise. They are not "running into loss". You have absolutely no idea.



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> and by the way , present some thing extra ordinary in order to beat M$... your Apples arrent even occupying 10% of the worlds population... wat say in this... if they are so good then , whay the hell people dont buy them....


Though Apple obviously aims at world domination, I personally would much rather see Macs occupy a niche reputation in the market. I don't want Macs to be like iPods.



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> i never tried to insult apple coz next month i will too be a APPLE Owner.. but that does not change the reality that windows is the best OS for masses... and simply gr8....


Let us hear your opinion about Macintoshes after a month or two then. 



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> media player is also for MAC, and IE is also for MAc, i can give you a whole list for the softwares supporting MAC by M$...and many are under development...


There are only two pieces of software currently under development that are being worked upon and are supported by Microsoft - Office for Mac and Messenger for Mac.

Office for Mac is brilliant. It is also a money-spinner for Microsoft.

Messenger for Mac, on the other hand, is crap. I don't know why though. Maybe because it is free. I have no idea.

Internet Explorer for Mac has been stopped. It was crap anyway.

Microsoft Media Player for Mac is another crap piece of software that is currently on haitus. There hasn't been an update in ages.


Apple makes iTunes and QuickTime Player for Windows. Both are actively developed and supported by Apple and always have the exact same functionality as on a Mac.


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## gxsaurav (Mar 27, 2007)

arya said:
			
		

> The full fledged version of Mac OS X "Tiger" is cheaper than the cheapest, absolutely crippled and practically unusable version of Windows Vista.



Why do u always forget to include the Phrase "It runs only on hardware bought from Apple which adds to the over all cost"


			
				arya said:
			
		

> Actually, it is just the opposite.
> "even you can run Windows and Linux on a MAC, but running MACos on a PC is quite a headache with many Problem"



Yeah, we can't run MacOS X on a PC officially cos *Apple won't let us*.



> Apple makes iTunes and QuickTime Player for Windows. Both are actively developed and supported by Apple and always have the exact same functionality as on a Mac.



You again forgot to mention "So that Windows users can use iPod, as they rule the market share in OS"


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## shantanu (Mar 28, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> These r called typical fanboy comments and statements from a person who has never experienced other platforms or just rely on the advice and statements of rumour mongers. Even in jokes u shudn't take names!!
> 
> 
> I know its a closed source OS, but u r saying ignorantly like full support isn't given for OSS. I wonder how majority servers employing Linux have survived then! And yea I look at windows and last thing I can recall is that MS was apologising for serving malwares!
> ...


 

First of all, i aint a fanboy... then i have used Linux and am planning to buy a Apple Lappy in april... then i just joked Arya coz if his signature... and i didnt said anything to you... 

now you say that i am acting like a fanboy... why arent you talking like ANTI_windows -community person... 

its ok that you dont have good experience but you shoudl write till the limit it does not beocme offensive , not till the time your talk looses its original meaning.. you know one thing, i always post where i fell like that i wont get opposed for telling truth.... really.. when i see Vimal,s18000, arya and others i know in the thread then only i post.. otherwise not.. coz people just quote without seeing what is written...

you said *Half Knowledge *
i say i am a *fool* , if that keeps you *cool*... dont dont forget to have a *lool*.. at the end of this *drool*...


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## mediator (Mar 28, 2007)

shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> now you say that i am acting like a fanboy... why arent you talking like ANTI_windows -community person...


I wud have been if I were making castles in air like u and posting anything without proof or otherwise ignorantly! And how come u said "I'm acting like u"? If u have ever read my replies/posts before u wud have known that I always liked MS-VMWARE, MS-office, and ackowledged here openly for linux being weak in gaming front. Nething else u wanna say Mr.Fanboy? 
Who else did say here that MS-windows is for ......., linux is for ......, mac is for...??



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> its ok that you dont have good experience but you shoudl write till the limit it does not beocme offensive , not till the time your talk looses its original meaning.. you know one thing, i always post where i fell like that i wont get opposed for telling truth.... really.. when i see Vimal,s18000, arya and others i know in the thread then only i post.. otherwise not.. coz people just quote without seeing what is written...


I hope u'll practise in future wat u preach!



			
				shantanu said:
			
		

> i say i am a fool , if that keeps you cool... dont dont forget to have a lool.. at the end of this drool


R u confirming ur nature ? Neways a fanboy indeed is a fool.....and thinking that bt u doesnt makes me cool but generates pity.


*Neways I expected line by line replies from u for my post #31 and not some confession from u that ur a fool (u said that not me). Its quite common for people to reply selectively, lose their ability to reply properly and resort to preaching like a stereotype. Shud I assume u have nothing to reply for my post #31 ?*

Sooo if u wanna discuss then discuss properly or else better not to discuss it........ever!


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## eddie (Mar 28, 2007)

shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> Vista's Kernel is so powerfull that it will surely overtake the market in quite a small time...


 Can you elaborate a little on the "Powerful Vista Kernel"? BTW you do know what kernel means...right?


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## alok4best (Mar 28, 2007)

Why do ppl always fight over what is best..
Cant we just use what suits us the Most.
as for me Suse 10.1 and XP is the best Combination and I have been using them for past few years..But still I wont like to say which is best and which is worse..Its totally depends on the individual,and let it be like that only.


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## shantanu (Mar 28, 2007)

@mediator.. as i said before. when i try that the surroundings dont become heavy, people try to think that they are smart and strat to say what ever they want.. You want the answer i will give it to you.

@eddie: mind your language... *en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_%28computer_science%29
and this is for you as you still dont knwo what is kernel.. 

@mediator...
first of all i just joked to Arya.. of whom you guys made a crap...
leave it , but as you said that linux is getting full support.. how many update packages and Bi-transforal update is provided by Linux..., no it does not provide that... coz it updates directly the kernel and values for it... you know that mean.. it means that Linux is having a UNSTABLE kernel , that is not up to mark.. it keeps on changing , coz its a OSS, and its been updated every day... what else. 

Microsoft provides free of cost shipments to its subscribers , those who are commercially dealing with server ranges... i hope you know how many types of servers are there currently on which M$ is working... 
appolozising for Malwares... i dont think so.. where the proof....

and you gave me the link.. i think buddy!!! oss is not a company itself... is it..
soundforge distributions are made by people and submitted... where are they certified... i dont know about it.. .. if you knwo then please correct me and tell me..

now the last line i wrote to you was just to make the surroundings lite enough so that either you or anyone does not gets hurt... but WTH you dont care about that... 
its ok.. niether i was telling you my nature , nor i am a FANBOY, but if you want to mean that,, let it be.,... i dont care... 
and i have used linux and i appreciate it too.. but its not 20% as compared to windows.. 

@eddie: again mind you language...


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## eddie (Mar 28, 2007)

shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> @eddie: mind your language...
> 
> @eddie: again mind you language...


 Eh? Mind my language? Asking you to elaborate on something you claimed, is offensive to you?


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## shantanu (Mar 28, 2007)

*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_...ter_science)

this explains the kernel... hope now you can learn the defenitions.. 

and if you were just asking then its ok..


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## eddie (Mar 28, 2007)

I want you to elaborate on the power that (according to you) has been infused in Vista's kernel to make it "take over the world". Tell us about those "powers"...not some random link from Wikipedia.


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## alok4best (Mar 28, 2007)

@Eddie
*www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/vista/kernel-en.mspx

*thelazyadmin.com/index.php?/archives/375-Whats-New-in-Vista-Kernel-Changes.html

these two Links might help u ...theres a downloadable .doc file also at MS link


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## shantanu (Mar 28, 2007)

why you want me to elaborate ! you can google for it and read online whats new in windows vista kernel..

well download this word doc. it will help you.: 

here


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## ..:: Free Radical ::.. (Mar 28, 2007)

aww..c'mon every1. you don't need every thing from the OS. There are so many excellent 3rd party tools. with all that upgrading fuss, who needs Mac or Vista or the latest Linux distro on the block when you can do everything better currently with your own choice of apps.
i did like win98 due to its bloatware free, streamlined interface and still reminisce of the good old days of a 150 MB windows install. I cuurently run XP without all the bells and whistles with all the crappy services, firewall, drm crap removed. Apps like foobar2000, media player classic, AHK and directx are delaying my switch to linux. Now, I must emphasise that the best software I have used has been open source. I love Firefox and hate using a browser (even if it is firefox) on any other computer because of my customized (and even modded) extensions. Now you can only run Linux on a Playstation and not Windows . Who needs Mac when I cant change my hardware according to my needs? ( I being a person who likes to have control of all software on his hardware LOL. Heck, is there lInux for my Symbian phone. i wanna flash.)

No doubt, if you are a Mac user accustomed to all that eye candy and simplistic interface, Windows is a nightmare. If you are a control freak and fastidious about everything an OS should have, Linux is the absolute best you could have.XP treads on easier ground, and atleast I know its flaws, so I can be sure-footed around its holes. Vista, I don't like something I cant have total control over. Hell, it reads My Computer.
It would be sometime I switch from my own stripped and tweaked XP.
In the end what matters most is the labor you put into your OS.
You should always take the OS which YOU are efficient at. Why waste time migrating when you can get the job done with what you have?
Peace.


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## mediator (Mar 28, 2007)

shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> but as you said that linux is getting full support.. how many update packages and Bi-transforal update is provided by Linux..., no it does not provide that... coz it updates directly the kernel and values for it... you know that mean.. it means that Linux is having a UNSTABLE kernel , that is not up to mark.. it keeps on changing , coz its a OSS, and its been updated every day


U say u have used linux and u ask such question about linux updates? Have some experience before showing ur ignorance about linux package updates. Neways whats wrong in kernel updates? First time I used windows without any updates or SPs, I got numerous "BSODs/crashes" coming further. I have been using fedora 5 without any updates ever since and I forgot those terms. So Unstable kernel? Please dont make me laugh. If u r into programming then u wudn't have even said such absurd stuff! The sites themselves tell u if the kernel is unstable or stable and that stability (OSS) is well tested by millions out there everytime not by just a few sitting in a department as in case of closed source!
Neways for ur enlightenment, kernel updates doesn't mean some patches for some noticable bugs to the existing kernel. If some bugs r to be removed in the existing kernel then its called "patches" to the kernel. Stable kernel doesn't usually have any noticable bugs coz its well tested, an unstable kernel is the one with which u can play with. A kernel update is usually associated with better hardware support! Thats y they say if u wanna have better hardware support then u shud update kernel or compile the drivers with existing kernel! U can have plenty of kernels to boot with on ur startup. U can also learn to optimize the latest kernel keeping the existing ones in case ur not successful with the optimization!



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> ... what else


It was like ur asking me to remove ur ignorance!



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> Microsoft provides free of cost shipments to its subscribers , those who are commercially dealing with server ranges... i hope you know how many types of servers are there currently on which M$ is working...
> appolozising for Malwares... i dont think so.. where the proof....


Thats y I told u to quote and reply me line by line, coz firstly I was talking about support for OSS like in case of linux servers and removing ur ignorance about that and secondly the proof has been given over n over gain for mS apologising for malwares. If u can't read the links automatically marked in blue then please google to have plenty of pages to enlighten u bt it!



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> and you gave me the link.. i think buddy!!! oss is not a company itself... is it..
> soundforge distributions are made by people and submitted... where are they certified... i dont know about it.. .. if you knwo then please correct me and tell me..


Even steve balmer doesn't talk with such absurdness! Yes, OSS isnt a company itself but I hope u know redhat,novll etc r dont u? If u ask for enlightenment then u shud read Opensource and tech news sections.
Read this Who really writes linux
U asked what Mac and linux give for windows, then read again what u wrote "OSS is not a company" and linux is a part of OSS and its OSS at the end that is contributing to Windows.



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> now the last line i wrote to you was just to make the surroundings lite enough so that either you or anyone does not gets hurt... but WTH you dont care about that...
> its ok.. niether i was telling you my nature , nor i am a FANBOY, but if you want to mean that,, let it be.,... i dont care...
> and i have used linux and i appreciate it too.. but its not 20% as compared to windows..


Please keep ur sentiments with u and instead have a nice quote n reply discussion if u dont wanna hurt me! About the percentage thats just another statement from a fanboy and quite laughable! and then u say ur not a fanboy...how cute!


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## eddie (Mar 29, 2007)

shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> why you want me to elaborate ! you can google for it and read online whats new in windows vista kernel..
> 
> well download this word doc. it will help you.:
> 
> here


 Did you read the document you linked me to and then compared the mentioned features to the ones available in competitive products? As far as I can see, Superfetch is probably the only feature that does not have a completely stable alternative available in Linux/Mac platforms. Even though preload is available in Linux but it is still in development stages. So Superfetch alone will make Vista's "Kernel" to take over the world or do you have some other unique features in mind?


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## gxsaurav (Mar 29, 2007)

ax3 said:
			
		

> VISTA IS FLOP ...........
> 
> 
> * coz many ppl r FORCED 2 change HARDWARE & SOFTWARES 2 .......... no support 4 old games ..........
> ...



Again, no one is forced for anything. It is users choice wether you want to get Vista or not. Vista runs fine on old systems, my computer is a very good example as it was bought 3 years ago. It even runs on 4 years old computer with a DirectX 9 graphics card (Pentium 4 2.4 Ghz & Radeon 9600 Pro)


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Mar 30, 2007)

amitava82 said:
			
		

> 3rd party company don't bother to support other OS because they make enoughe whol money from 90% of world's PC users using Windows. And you can not force them to do that. its like "you don't want to use windows, don't use our product or don't ask for support".



well mate there's a reason y 3rd parties don't program for Linux , it's simple , Windows has a standard , u can use WIndows Media SDK to develop a multimedia app and u can use the binary across all versions of windows , in linux , there r no Concrete Standards , u program using one library , while there are 500 others so it becomes very difficult to support the product on each and every distro and config .

also , programming for windows is a hell lot easier , just look at c# , designing GUI apss with it a piece of cake whereas and you'll be lost for bout a whole day learning the basics of GTK . 
{ plz i'm not bashing OSS , i'm just putting my point of view }



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Actually, it is just the opposite.
> "even you can run Windows and Linux on a MAC, but running MACos on a PC is quite a headache with many Problem"



hey arya , aren't u contradicting mac's greatness , if iwndows and linux can run on pc hardware as well as mac hardware that means they r more flexible and hence can run on various hardware configs , but on the other hand Mac OS can only run on it's propreitary hardware and the developers haven't taken the pain of makin it more dynamic nad able to run in different scenarios ?


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## mediator (Mar 30, 2007)

> well mate there's a reason y 3rd parties don't program for Linux , it's simple , Windows has a standard , u can use WIndows Media SDK to develop a multimedia app and u can use the binary across all versions of windows , in linux , there r no Concrete Standards , u program using one library , while there are 500 others so it becomes very difficult to support the product on each and every distro and config .


Well the last time I tried installing winxp manager, it prompted me to install .net libraries! For linux u have tar files, i.e source, from which can make the program on any distro. Some times it says that library needed. So if u can install VB, .net libraries in windows then wats wrong to install a few libraries (usually in KBs) in linux too?

Neways 3rd party apps (or better say proprietary stuff) exists for linux too. PLease have some experience with linux and u'll find the softwares u r talking about in plenty. They have even started developing games for Linux. Have a tour in the OPENSOURCE section.



> also , programming for windows is a hell lot easier , just look at c# , designing GUI apss with it a piece of cake whereas and you'll be lost for bout a whole day learning the basics of GTK .
> { plz i'm not bashing OSS , i'm just putting my point of view }


Again its a point of getting used to. I find programming in c/c++,java a lot easier in linux. U dont even have to put the "getch()" syntax in the last line of the c file...which is used in windows just to show the output!!?? And then u can copy the result straight forward to ur lab file. In the leading windows's c compilers like turbo c,borland c compiler copying the result is a heck. The thing here that is making the life of a programmeur much easier is the Linux SHELL.


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## aryayush (Mar 30, 2007)

Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> hey arya , aren't u contradicting mac's greatness , if iwndows and linux can run on pc hardware as well as mac hardware that means they r more flexible and hence can run on various hardware configs , but on the other hand Mac OS can only run on it's propreitary hardware and the developers haven't taken the pain of makin it more dynamic nad able to run in different scenarios ?


Well, this "flexibility" is what causes Windows to be so unstable. I am much happier buying my hardware and software from the same company and experiencing zero compatibility problems, than buying Windows and staring at BSoDs.

And anyway, Mac OS X can run fairly well on regular PCs if you want to do so. But it is illegal and Apple deliberatly puts many roadblocks in the way to discourage such an act. They need to sell their hardware too.

My post was just intended to clarify that Windows (even Vista) runs absolutely fine on a Mac.


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## gxsaurav (Mar 30, 2007)

> Well the last time I tried installing winxp manager, it prompted me to install .net libraries! For linux u have tar files, i.e source, from which can make the program on any distro. Some times it says that library needed. So if u can install VB, .net libraries in windows then wats wrong to install a few libraries (usually in KBs) in linux too?



Meditator, I have said it many times & saying it again. offline Application installation in Linux is extremely bad. .deb is bad cos it doesn't comes with own libraries but requires you to download more. .mo of Slax is best so far.

In Windows, there is no compilation required. With Vista the runtime is already available & .net 2.0 & 3.0 are given in digit magzine too, it is not much to download & once downloaded, that one runtime is all you need. Besides, I have myself tried compiling Gaim 2.0 b6 on Ubuntu & despite of being 2% linux user i was unable to, & plz just like any Average Joe, i don't plan to read 30 tutorials (example).



			
				zeeshan said:
			
		

> also , programming for windows is a hell lot easier , just look at c# , designing GUI apss with it a piece of cake whereas and you'll be lost for bout a whole day learning the basics of GTK .



Yo, you working on the "thing" na? 



> PLease have some experience with linux and u'll find the softwares u r talking about in plenty.



Now what to say  about him.



			
				arya said:
			
		

> Well, this "flexibility" is what causes Windows to be so unstable



This felxibility is the only reason Windows rulez.



> I am much happier buying my hardware and software from the same company and experiencing zero compatibility problems, than buying Windows and staring at BSoDs.



Try buying a Dell or HP Computer with proper WHQL drivers & trust me, you will not get a BSOD unless you tinker with Windows.


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## aryayush (Mar 30, 2007)

Well, I tinker a lot with Mac OS X but it never crashed on me.

My brother bought an HP laptop and it came up with a BSoD when we installed a few third party software and were updating it through AutoPatcher. Now tell me "u will not get bsod if you not instal 3rd party sw & system update".

I have a better option - let's just turn it off and put it in a cardboard box. I am sure it won't give a BSoD even then.


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## mediator (Mar 30, 2007)

> Meditator, I have said it many times & saying it again. offline Application installation in Linux is extremely bad. .deb is bad cos it doesn't comes with own libraries but requires you to download more. .mo of Slax is best so far.
> 
> In Windows, there is no compilation required. With Vista the runtime is already available & .net 2.0 & 3.0 are given in digit magzine too, it is not much to download & once downloaded, that one runtime is all you need. Besides, I have myself tried compiling Gaim 2.0 b6 on Ubuntu & despite of being 2% linux user i was unable to, & plz just like any Average Joe, i don't plan to read 30 tutorials (example).


I guess we already had a discussion over that. If u wanna compare that then u shudn't cripple one OS so as to put the advantage on the other. I can also say, if u dont have a cdrom/dvdrom then u can't even install windows but can do a network install of Linux directly from the site! And if u dont have a cdrom then u'll be dead already installing the service pack that is near 200 mb and other party packages (in gbs) that form the complete pleasure package in windows!

I know u might say that cdrom is like an organ of a PC, then so is internet today. Its more like a necessity now. I mean both r.

So lets not put the offline/online arguments or cripple the OS of its basic hardware like net,cdrom etc. Neways if digit can give u the libraries of windows then they can supply u with linux libraries tooo to get their business going/growing.
Also u get the libraries,missing codecs issues with free linux distros and then windows tooo. So if u really hate such things and hate 30 tuts page then get proprietary linux like SUSE where everything is bundled there for an average joe like u as u said. Also an average joe expects everything to be installed already so as to minimise his installation work. If u can spend 6000 on windows which doesnt even have office suite, then paying much less for propreitary linux shudn't even be an issue.

Neways in free linux distro like Fedora I always advise the fella users to do "yum -y install *lib*" install so that they dont have to install libraries afterwards!  

So Zeeshan n I were having libraries discussion. Lets not  have a null and useless discussion of Internet/cdrom/offline installation etc! There r a lotta things an average joe expects, one of them listed already by me and one by u! And an internet connection is a basic necessity for an average joe!!


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## aryayush (Mar 30, 2007)

@gx_saurav, You don't honestly expect someone who is technology challenged enough to not even have an internet connection to try Linux. Such people usually have Windows 98 and Tally installed on their system.
No one is talking about them.


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## gxsaurav (Mar 30, 2007)

aryayush said:
			
		

> @gx_saurav, You don't honestly expect someone who is technology challenged enough to not even have an internet connection to try Linux. Such people usually have Windows 98 and Tally installed on their system.
> No one is talking about them.



This is what I mean. You do know the sorry state of broadband in India, right?


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## aryayush (Mar 30, 2007)

What? What relation does that post have to this conversation? 

What I am trying to say is that 99% of the people who try Linux would definitely have an internet connection.


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## mediator (Mar 30, 2007)

@gx : In the link u gave, u r discussing about updates, WAIK(800 MB), then something for 1.3 GB etc. But here we r discussing about libraries. I haven't updated my FC5 yet. It is still as it was, when I first upgraded it from FC4, without any problems ever since. All I did since then was installing of programs I liked. As far as I remember the total install size of the extra libraries wasn't greater than 200 MB and it consisted of all the libraries in the seven repositories enabled on my FC5  => "yum -y install *lib*". Since this command means, to install any package that has "lib" in its name, then u may include any software package too that has "lib" in its name that might have got installed and contributing to that 200 MB. An average joe with even 64 kbps wud have got that 200 MB installed during the night. But now we r having average joes with 256 Kbps speed and mtnl/bsnl joes with 2Mbps speeds.

Also just like u said in the post/link that u downloaded packages and formed an updated source, similarly in Linux u call it "caching" of the repository and can point all the "ethernet" machines on a LAN to it.


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## infra_red_dude (Mar 30, 2007)

yes i do agree wid this point. offline installation is a pain in linux. i also agree that broadband is a sorry scene in this country. i waz kept waiting for 8 months for my BB connection. i cudn't afford to download ~200mb on a dialup connection.

i also agree to the point that c/c++ programming is much easier and more productive in linux. i do that mostly in my linux system.

both points are valid! but lets get back to the discussion here abt vista.

vista will surely roll on wid new PCs.....my opinion is that many many organisations (not private obviously) still haf win98 era PCs wid win98 as the default OS. they'll obviously get new hardware and when they do they'll get vista bundled wid it.. so its a plus point for vista!


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Mar 30, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> Well the last time I tried installing winxp manager, it prompted me to install .net libraries! For linux u have tar files, i.e source, from which can make the program on any distro. Some times it says that library needed. So if u can install VB, .net libraries in windows then wats wrong to install a few libraries (usually in KBs) in linux too?



well , u got me wrong here , i'm sayin that windows has a standard set of libraries that u need to download , in  this case .NET , which is ~20MB n each and every .NET program uses the same library , but with linux(or any other FREE system ) , u have many options , so say a developer uses library A for (say)XML parsing , whereas some other developers use libraries , B , C , ... etc for same thing , so now while compiling programs , the user has to download a multitude of libraries that do essentially the same thing .

secondly it is even harder for developers to learn new libraries and for new developers who join a dev team and find out that the library that the team uses for doin their work is not the one he uses .



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Again its a point of getting used to. I find programming in c/c++,java a lot easier in linux. U dont even have to put the "getch()" syntax in the last line of the c file...which is used in windows just to show the output!!?? And then u can copy the result straight forward to ur lab file. In the leading windows's c compilers like turbo c,borland c compiler copying the result is a heck. The thing here that is making the life of a programmeur much easier is the Linux SHELL.



where are u man , u don't need to put "getch" to get the program output , heck , "getch" is not even in "Standard C++" ANd , the leading windows compiler is Microsoft's Visual C++ , turbo c++ was released in 1991 and is now extinct , today's development environments r modern windows programs with a GUI , this is MUCH better than programming in a CMD text editor and compiling by hand .


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## gxsaurav (Mar 30, 2007)

infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> vista will surely roll on wid new PCs.....my opinion is that many many organisations (not private obviously) still haf win98 era PCs wid win98 as the default OS. they'll obviously get new hardware and when they do they'll get vista bundled wid it.. so its a plus point for vista!


Nah, like I have said already many times, companies usually work on 3 or 4 particular apps made for there own company. They don't need anything other then Windows 2000 SP4, just that it is no longer supported. I mean, comon...they just need to run Avaya or Finacle whole day, why do they need Vista for it? Remember, the systems in such companies are not directly connected to internet, *& without internet or file sharing, no exploit can harm windows. *Systems are usually behind some server firewall or router.

This thread is much like the old "Vista - Will it run or crawl thread'


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## mediator (Mar 30, 2007)

> well , u got me wrong here , i'm sayin that windows has a standard set of libraries that u need to download , in this case .NET , which is ~20MB n each and every .NET program uses the same library , but with linux(or any other FREE system ) , u have many options , so say a developer uses library A for (say)XML parsing , whereas some other developers use libraries , B , C , ... etc for same thing , so now while compiling programs , the user has to download a multitude of libraries that do essentially the same thing .


Ur point is quite vague. Can u elaborate it giving the comparisons in details and practical examples?



> secondly it is even harder for developers to learn new libraries and for new developers who join a dev team and find out that the library that the team uses for doin their work is not the one he uses .


Here also I wud like to see some practical examples, some elaboration and some links that say such things! R u trying to say that tar files i.e the source is different for all the distros?



> where are u man , u don't need to put "getch" to get the program output , heck , "getch" is not even in "Standard C++" ANd , the leading windows compiler is Microsoft's Visual C++ , turbo c++ was released in 1991 and is now extinct , today's development environments r modern windows programs with a GUI , this is MUCH better than programming in a CMD text editor and compiling by hand .


Hmmmm, I'll try MS-Visual c++ again then on windows , thanx for the acknowledgement.....But in majority of institutions they still teach u on TC3 or Borland c++ compilers. I'm not an advanced programmeur, but I find programming in linux much easier for c/c++ and java.
I have tried MS-Visual c++, but dont really remember how its output used to be like. AFAIR, even to choose/create a new file u had to take 2-3 steps and then it created a lotta bloated code which I used to erase. Neways u as an advanced programmer like MS-Visual c++ and I being an average commandline programmer like Linux C programming. I prefer not to speak on the things I dont know, in this case about the advanced graphics programming with c/c++. So for the advanced programming I hope we'll have a nice discussion when my programming level increases! For the time being please elaborate how source libraries  r different for different linux distros. Please give examples for Ubuntu n fedora as i have access to them.


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Mar 31, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> Hmmmm, I'll try MS-Visual c++ again then on windows , thanx for the acknowledgement.....But in majority of institutions they still teach u on TC3 or Borland c++ compilers. I'm not an advanced programmeur, but I find programming in linux much easier for c/c++ and java.
> I have tried MS-Visual c++, but dont really remember how its output used to be like. AFAIR, even to choose/create a new file u had to take 2-3 steps and then it created a lotta bloated code which I used to erase. Neways u as an advanced programmer like MS-Visual c++ and I being an average commandline programmer like Linux C programming. I prefer not to speak on the things I dont know, in this case about the advanced graphics programming with c/c++. So for the advanced programming I hope we'll have a nice discussion when my programming level increases! For the time being please elaborate how source libraries  r different for different linux distros. Please give examples for Ubuntu n fedora as i have access to them.



well it's like this , .NET has XML parsing functionality , .NET developers use this xml parsing library to parse XML in their apps . whereas in linux , there's no standard library , u have "libxml" , "Expat" , "Xerces" and many more librariesfor XML parsing , so say some developers use libxml , others use Exapat , etc , so when u install apps from different developers using different libraries , u'll have to download both Expat , libxml , etc libraries when compiling . getting my point naa .

in the same way it is hard for application interoperability coz mostly different libraries r notdesigned for interoperatibility with external libraries . so it's hard for developers too . 

in the same way gor GUI development on linux u have , GTK(for gnome) , Qt(for KDE) , Wxwidgets , etc , so here too a developer is in a delimma , which library to use cos app written with Qt , won't render very well on gone .



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Hmmmm, I'll try MS-Visual c++ again then on windows , thanx for the acknowledgement.....But in majority of institutions they still teach u on TC3 or Borland c++ compilers. I'm not an advanced programmeur, but I find programming in linux much easier for c/c++ and java.
> I have tried MS-Visual c++, but dont really remember how its output used to be like. AFAIR, even to choose/create a new file u had to take 2-3 steps and then it created a lotta bloated code which I used to erase. Neways u as an advanced programmer like MS-Visual c++ and I being an average commandline programmer like Linux C programming. I prefer not to speak on the things I dont know, in this case about the advanced graphics programming with c/c++.



well that's the problem , schools teach us using TC3 or BOrland C++ compilers which r very very old , n the C++ that they teach us in not actually C++ , it's 90% C .

secondly i suggest u try Visual C++ 2005 Express Edition , it's totally free and is meant for students n enthusiasts , and NO , VC doesn't generate bloated code , if u select empty project while creating a new project it creates a blank project n u can code whatever u want . it is way better than TC


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## mediator (Mar 31, 2007)

> in the same way gor GUI development on linux u have , GTK(for gnome) , Qt(for KDE) , Wxwidgets , etc , so here too a developer is in a delimma , which library to use cos app written with Qt , won't render very well on gone .


I dont see it as a dilemma. But I see it as choices which is + point for any programmer. A programmer wanting to opt for GUI development in gnome will opt for GTK. Naturally he will have to learn some more if he changes to GUI development for windows or KDE.



> well it's like this , .NET has XML parsing functionality , .NET developers use this xml parsing library to parse XML in their apps . whereas in linux , there's no standard library , u have "libxml" , "Expat" , "Xerces" and many more librariesfor XML parsing , so say some developers use libxml , others use Exapat , etc , so when u install apps from different developers using different libraries , u'll have to download both Expat , libxml , etc libraries when compiling . getting my point naa .
> 
> in the same way it is hard for application interoperability coz mostly different libraries r notdesigned for interoperatibility with external libraries . so it's hard for developers too .


Your point is still vague. All I understand is like this that in c++ programming, u can print a statement  with "cout" and for that u have "iostream", but then whats the point of having "printf" which is included in "stdio" and then there's a dilemma for the programmer coz ur having 2 libraries providing the same functionality! Is that what u r saying? Please provide some reliable links for my better understandabilty.


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## gxsaurav (Mar 31, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> I dont see it as a dilemma. But I see it as choices which is + point for any programmer. A programmer wanting to opt for GUI development in gnome will opt for GTK. Naturally he will have to learn some more if he changes to GUI development for windows or KDE.



The problem here is that despite of being open source, they do not work together. You cannot run a QT app in Gnome right. Now where is the standerd here?



> Your point is still vague. All I understand is like this that in c++ programming, u can print a statement  with "cout" and for that u have "iostream", but then whats the point of having "printf" which is included in "stdio" and then there's a dilemma for the programmer coz ur having 2 libraries providing the same functionality! Is that what u r saying? Please provide some reliable links for my better understandabilty.


This is not what u r asking, u r getting it wrong. What he meant that there are many methods to Parse XML in Linux but none of them work together which they should.


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## mediator (Mar 31, 2007)

> The problem here is that despite of being open source, they do not work together. You cannot run a QT app in Gnome right. Now where is the standerd here?


I never programmed with QT but there r plenty of KDE apps I can open in Gnome, Gnome apps in Kde. Ksnapshot,gedit are my favourites...try it out urself u'll find many.



> This is not what u r asking, u r getting it wrong. What he meant that there are many methods to Parse XML in Linux but none of them work together which they should.


Hmmm, but I dont see whats the problem here and y wud a programmer use different xml parsing methods all at a same time or use them all? Just like we use either cout or printf in c++, similarly one of the methods can be used to parse xml. I'm not very used to the "printf" function, so I dont use it. I only use cout. Similarly, a programmer will use only one of the xml parsing methods. So wats so disadvantageous of having different libraries and methods? It only adds to flexibilty,choices....naturally a + point for a programmer to let him decide with which method he is comfortable with. 

Neways, all I want is "reliable links" to improve my knowledge about such things in linux! I tried to google but cudn't find any! May be I searched for irrelevant stuff.....so please provide some links!


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Mar 31, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> I never programmed with QT but there r plenty of KDE apps I can open in Gnome, Gnome apps in Kde. Ksnapshot,gedit are my favourites...try it out urself u'll find many.
> 
> 
> Hmmm, but I dont see whats the problem here and y wud a programmer use different xml parsing methods all at a same time or use them all? Just like we use either cout or printf in c++, similarly one of the methods can be used to parse xml. I'm not very used to the "printf" function, so I dont use it. I only use cout. Similarly, a programmer will use only one of the xml parsing methods. So wats so disadvantageous of having different libraries and methods? It only adds to flexibilty,choices....naturally a + point for a programmer to let him decide with which method he is comfortable with.
> ...



well man u're actually not running Qt apps natively in gnome , u're downloading KDE libraries n asking them to interface with the X windows system and display the data in ur gnome session , it's the same way round for gtk apps on KDE .

nyways , in both situations u have to download extra libraries which is my point , in windows u have to download(if any) only a smal standard set of libraries , but in linux , due to the vast amount of libraries , u have to download a hell lot more libraries .

btw , my earlier point meant , like u use app ABC which uses Expat for XML parsing , n u also use app XYZ, which uses libxml for XML parsing , so if u wanna install both app ABC and XYZ u'll have to download both expat and libxml , which in turn increases the download size and hard disk space usage .

so while using KDE app in gnome u hv to download approx 100MB n vice versa , i'm not criticising choice but i'm saying there must be a standard for better functionality .


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## mediator (Mar 31, 2007)

> well man u're actually not running Qt apps natively in gnome , u're downloading KDE libraries n asking them to interface with the X windows system and display the data in ur gnome session , it's the same way round for gtk apps on KDE .


U mean kde libraries having gnome support? If thats the point then wats wrong with that?



> nyways , in both situations u have to download extra libraries which is my point , in windows u have to download(if any) only a smal standard set of libraries , but in linux , due to the vast amount of libraries , u have to download a hell lot more libraries .


How many window/desktop managers does windows have? And how many window managers linux have? So its quite natural for  linux having plenty of windows/desktop managers installed to have plenty of libraries. A user certainly wont be doing his task in all the managers one by one. He gets accustomed to one and only uses libraries for that. The same goes for a programmer, if he likes developing apps in gnome then he'll be using gtk libraries. Its just a branch. U can develop for kde, gnome etc anyone. So wats the problem here?

I hope I got ur point correct!?



> btw , my earlier point meant , like u use app ABC which uses Expat for XML parsing , n u also use app XYZ, which uses libxml for XML parsing , so if u wanna install both app ABC and XYZ u'll have to download both expat and libxml , which in turn increases the download size and hard disk space usage .


If libxml and expat belong to different development environment then its quite obvious that u have to dld both to run the abc n xyz apps. 



> so while using KDE app in gnome u hv to download approx 100MB n vice versa , i'm not criticising choice but i'm saying there must be a standard for better functionality .


I understand, but u must understand too that kde n gnome r too different developers and its impossible for developers to have a conforming set. I read about the "standard set" theory in software engineering book, but its just a theory and its practically almost impossible! U can urself see that there's not much conformity between tc,borland c++ and gcc compilers and may be MS-visual c++ compiler too. Some basics r same but when it comes to higher programming then u have to open up the reference manuals for each.

I hope this time I got right n this is wat u wanted to discuss! Right?


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Mar 31, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> How many window/desktop managers does windows have? And how many window managers linux have? So its quite natural for  linux having plenty of windows/desktop managers installed to have plenty of libraries. A user certainly wont be doing his task in all the managers one by one. He gets accustomed to one and only uses libraries for that. The same goes for a programmer, if he likes developing apps in gnome then he'll be using gtk libraries. Its just a branch. U can develop for kde, gnome etc anyone. So wats the problem here?



yeah , but herein lies the problem , due to the  extremely high number of choices of desktop managers , sound systems , window managers , parsing libraries , etc , it becomes very difficult to make a program to run uniformly of all linux distros , a program which might run extremely fast on one distro might just not even start in another .

hope , u get my point y it's difficult to deploy commercial apps on linux . it might not be a big thing for very large enterprises , with a huge dev team , but it still is for medium and small businesses to deploy their apps on linux.


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## mediator (Mar 31, 2007)

> yeah , but herein lies the problem , due to the extremely high number of choices of desktop managers , sound systems , window managers , parsing libraries , etc , it becomes very difficult to make a program to run uniformly of all linux distros , a program which might run extremely fast on one distro might just not even start in another .


Nah thats not true. The unformity is there if u compile an app via tar file i.e the source that gives u much better performace. As u must be knowing an app compiled on ur system gives u much better performance than an app compiled on some host machine and ported to the target machine.



> hope , u get my point y it's difficult to deploy commercial apps on linux . it might not be a big thing for very large enterprises , with a huge dev team , but it still is for medium and small businesses to deploy their apps on linux.


I got ur point, but similarly as companies decide for which OS they shud develop an app for, similarly they have to decide for which window manager they have to conform with n develop for. They can develop the core base part that is commandline like for "nmap" that is independent of such window managers and then develop a front-end like "nmapfe" simply for it! But I dont think that there cannot exist any apps that can be created independently of either gtk or qt! So I dont see it as a problem either like u said for small or big companies!


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## gxsaurav (Mar 31, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> Nah thats not true. The unformity is there if u compile an app via tar file i.e the source that gives u much better performace. As u must be knowing an app compiled on ur system gives u much better performance than an app compiled on some host machine and ported to the target machine.



Yes it is good. But this is the only point which makes Linux a flop with general users in desktop market. They are not gonna learn how to do this.

Back to the topic plz


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## mediator (Mar 31, 2007)

^Again, tar file is no reason for that "flop in ur opinion". U already have rpms and debs created outta those tar files! So nobody is advising u to learn it. In fact I myself install via rpms and deb via most easy "add/remove package" that is perfect for an average joe!


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## shantanu (Mar 31, 2007)

who is this average joe  ?? hehe


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## mediator (Mar 31, 2007)

Hehe, I dunno its a funny term I learnt here! What I learnt is that there r different type of joes!


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## shantanu (Mar 31, 2007)

WOW!! why there arent lee or loes only joes  lol


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## amitava82 (Mar 31, 2007)

here is a wiki on Avg Joe. *en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_Joe


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Apr 1, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> ^Again, tar file is no reason for that "flop in ur opinion". U already have rpms and debs created outta those tar files! So nobody is advising u to learn it. In fact I myself install via rpms and deb via most easy "add/remove package" that is perfect for an average joe!



the tar , containing the source will compile only when it is compatible with the current system config and the current system has all the libraries it needs to link with , so compilation is the major problem coz the source written for one library is not compatible with other ilbraries . so app written in GTK will not compile in a Qt environment , unless the whole Qt libraries r downloaded , which defeats the whole purpose .


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## mediator (Apr 1, 2007)

I asked for source to read such things! U still haven't provided any source. What system configuration r u discussing about? Can u elaborate?

And theoretically an application like K-app_name wont compile perfectly in the "G-environment", though I haven't tried such a thing. But can u tell y an application like nmap and nmap-fe can be compiled in k environment and then runs smoothly in g environment?

So please provide some links now.


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Apr 1, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> I asked for source to read such things! U still haven't provided any source. What system configuration r u discussing about? Can u elaborate?
> 
> And theoretically an application like K-app_name wont compile perfectly in the "G-environment", though I haven't tried such a thing. But can u tell y an application like nmap and nmap-fe can be compiled in k environment and then runs smoothly in g environment?
> 
> So please provide some links now.



the reason these apps run r becuse they r NOT running in G environment actually , when u compile some software , say K app , to compile it u download K libraries even while workin in G environment so u download a lotta external libraries , which are of K environment and these libraries HELP k app run in G environment .

and no , there's no source for such common programming concepts , it's common-sense in programming that u can't link with a library without actually having the library installed . ( mean man how do u refer to something on ur system that doesn't exist )


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## mediator (Apr 2, 2007)

> the reason these apps run r becuse they r NOT running in G environment actually , when u compile some software , say K app , to compile it u download K libraries even while workin in G environment so u download a lotta external libraries , which are of K environment and these libraries HELP k app run in G environment .
> 
> and no , there's no source for such common programming concepts , it's common-sense in programming that u can't link with a library without actually having the library installed . ( mean man how do u refer to something on ur system that doesn't exist )


Thats y I already said that even though the "standardisation" is talked about, at the end its just a theoretical concept. The K n G are diff. developer groups and thats might be having their own set of libraries. And desktop environments r the first thing which a user gets ackowledged about in Linux. So the programmer wont be insane enough to compile k apps in g environment.
There r many Linux users/programmers in this forums and through out the world who r using different desktop environments and some have installed only one! They compile apps meant for either k in k or g in g! Therefore they dont get a "lotta libraries" installed like we r discussing! So its wrong to say "linux is down becoz of that"!

And I asked for source becoz I'm not aware of this different library thing in kde and gnome. I heard about it the first time n never cared to ponder about it. There r many apps I installed in ubuntu which had gnome then. It never distinguished if the app shud have g or k libraries. May be its the transparency there. But I assure u that almost all of them compiled without any library issue! Since we talk about standardisation then there might be a lotta standardisation between k n g apps tooo. But just like the conformation issue that exists between various c compilers, there might exist some issue between the k n g developments too. So since u cudn't answer very well as to why non K_apps or non g_apps like nmap cud compile well irrespective of the k or g and then don't give any problems and I having a doubt about the whole issue, then its better to give links!

So, I dont think Linux is down (as in ur opinion) just becoz of the library issue. Library issue will quite obviously occur (like u said "common sense says") in the graphics development. The common sense then also says that the issue will not occur in the base development above which the GUI works!


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## subratabera (Apr 2, 2007)

AFAIK programmers also working on a project which will work as a bridge between KDE and Gnome. Applications written for KDE can be easily ported to Gnome (with Gnome looks) and vice-versa...It will then definitely help both environments...


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## praka123 (Apr 6, 2007)

*Mera Windows(Vista/Xp/&&) Mahaaaan! Baaki Sab Bekaaaar
*I have seen this in discovery,animal planet etc-it is called scent marking.territorial WIndows Users!

I read some pages back @gx sourav saying who is forcing Windows?In India there are assembled PCs and so options are available,but what about the US & European markets?All the PCs,Lappies advertise preloaded with Windows!Why?this is exactly forcing u to use windows!.
the Best thing H/W manufacturers can do is to just support Linux and other FLOSS Operating Systems by submitting their h/w driver source to the Linux kernel devel team.

I have a question as a ex-windows user?do u thing u attained nirvana just by installing softwares NEXT-NEXT-FINISH>?if u got virus,u'll get urself some AV.most of them will crack it to use.AND thinks top of the world they are.
See the Linux OS,it doesnot want any such av 3rd party s/w.It is definitely worth the words its users explaining.
In India,why should we use Windows in defence establishments?isnt it risky affair?Even US military uses Linux,Indian military is gr8.


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## anandk (Apr 6, 2007)

*Strong Demand for Windows Vista Reported*

Best Buy and Circuit City both say there is strong interest in the Windows Vista operating system in their retail stores.

*www.pcworld.com/article/id,130395-pg,1/article.html

_These figures appear to point to a successful launch for Vista, as Microsoft's prediction that Vista would outsell XP considerably in the early days of its release is coming true._


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Apr 8, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> *Mera Windows(Vista/Xp/&&) Mahaaaan! Baaki Sab Bekaaaar
> *I have seen this in discovery,animal planet etc-it is called scent marking.territorial WIndows Users!
> 
> I read some pages back @gx sourav saying who is forcing Windows?In India there are assembled PCs and so options are available,but what about the US & European markets?All the PCs,Lappies advertise preloaded with Windows!Why?this is exactly forcing u to use windows!.
> ...



well mate , in US too ppl have the choice of getting their computer assebled , also dell n other manufacturers r also giving option of getting linux preloaded too , plz do some research before making comments .

also , i DON'T use an antivirus , n my system runs perfectly , without a hitch .

i regularly check performance , n it's the same level it was when i installed xp .

n also to be sure , i do an antivirus-scan once every 3 months n then uninstall the AV n i haven't had a SINGLE virus , trojan , etc detected since the last time i installed xp(~2 years) .


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## praka123 (Apr 8, 2007)

I did all the research before posting.the NEWS is Dell is yet to release Linux preloaded PCs ofcourse for some test productions they do made.

regarding Windows Os whatever lives without AntiVirus in Internet is ....lie.I know it.


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## tarey_g (Apr 8, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> regarding Windows Os whatever lives without AntiVirus in Internet is ....lie.I know it.



Don' declare it a lie just because its in your nature to make fun of windows and its users (atleast this is what you do in this forum), when was the last time you used windows . I never install a AV on my system (Although i do a virus scan in 6 months then uninstall it) my system has not seen a virus from 2+ years, i just do regular updates. Its not like windows is completely virus proof but its not also like what you think and write everywhere. 

I know it will make no difference in your posts after reading this , but i am optimistic.


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## praka123 (Apr 9, 2007)

OK.I will try to quit from this topic dear Windows lawyer.


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## tarey_g (Apr 9, 2007)

You call a guy windows lawyer who posts on this thread after 90+ posts. I posted here only because the crap had crossed tolerable level. 

I am not the guy who visits open source section to laugh on linux users who are having trouble in using a pen drive or make their sound card/etc working, i know users have made their choices and they knew what problems they will face on that path. I use windows, i know the risks and i am capable enough to keep it in shape. Someone who chose linux knew what probs he will have and is dealing with it, i have no right to force my sugestion on him to use windows or any other OS and make fun of the negatives of his choice.

Saw you profile , you have listed 'hating Microsoft' as one of your interests. Explains it all.


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## kin.vachhani (Apr 9, 2007)

hey vista rocks....


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## vipergt (May 15, 2007)

i totally agreed with amitava82


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## shantanu (May 15, 2007)

vipergt said:
			
		

> i totally agreed with amitava82


 
why you are bunping old threads.. and did u read the forum rules.. just saying i agree is breaking the rules.. 

REPORTED....


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## great_manish (May 16, 2007)

there is no doubt that microsoft makes the best commercial softwares...vista simply rox !!


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