# Meddling the Middle Classes



## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

Courts have allowed the reservation bill to pass! a draft that i decided to complete after watching the news today



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> Reservation is back in talks and with it the pros and cons of Reservations. Politicians pushing for reservation and the opposition also not going against them, well its not their fault how can some one go against reservation when doing so results in votes. Who are we kidding here, Reservation directly translates into votes, who wouldn’t want to do that or want to go against it.
> 
> Now here’s the real reasons if one thinks about why reservations are needed – Political Mileage; Yes many will say that’s not the case, under-privileged also deserve education of high standards and reservation gives them that opportunity; the “below poverty line” cannot afford the education and therefore need reservation. Well guess what I agree with them but is reservation the only option – Hell NO!!!
> 
> ...



My blog


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## ray|raven (Apr 10, 2008)

^We live in a sad and terrible time , my friend.


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## slugger (Apr 10, 2008)

haven't they excluded the creamy layer from the reservation list?

anyway it is the creamy layer candidates who bag most of the OBC seats. the poor OBC are left standing in the sun no matter what

*They should make amendments to exclude the creamy layer from the list of beneficiaries*

IMHO, only then will the law hold any signficant meaning of uplifting the downtrodden


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

^^ the courts have _urged  _the govt not to provide this for MPs and some other govt. servants


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## Pathik (Apr 10, 2008)

F**k*n politicos do it just to get more votes.
This means hell for unreserved *_Upper classes_*.


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

reservation is almost *49.2 f*cking % *


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## slugger (Apr 10, 2008)

iMav said:


> ^^ the courts have _urged  _the govt not to provide this for MPs and some other govt. servants



*what MPs and Govt servents!!!!*

my classmates pop works in the Gulf [not blue-collar], earn truckloads of cash. yet when it comes to taking admission.. guess what certificate he furnishes 

on top of it this guy has the gall to collect the cheque issued to him by the govt fom the college reimbursing his fees


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## ray|raven (Apr 10, 2008)

Reservations will live as long as there are vote-bank politics in this country.

IMHO, we need a dictator for a certain period of time; will clear out the crap that our country's full of.


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## kumarmohit (Apr 10, 2008)

Party's over people.

Time to move to United States or if you are like me, to the United Kingdom though I would move to Sweden too considering it is the country to host thepiratebay!


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## Faun (Apr 10, 2008)

better go to iceland


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

I remember the day when I was waiting to take my course for college....
I was 295.4/300 and he was 192.8  He was standing behind me!!


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## Faun (Apr 10, 2008)

^^things like this happens, cutoff is too low for others


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## Pathik (Apr 10, 2008)

Bloody Arjun Singh
*www.ibnlive.com/news/historic-day-i-have-been-vindicated-arjun/63037-3.html


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## abhinandh (Apr 10, 2008)

rayraven said:


> IMHO, we need a dictator for a certain period of time; will clear out the crap that our country's full of.


 well said.i too feel the same.

i was studying until now and my dad told me the f***ing news and lost my mood.... 

damn those lame idiots... no political party has the courage to oppose it.


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## m-jeri (Apr 10, 2008)

FCUK............we h ave to pay our ass through fees and they rubbing their hnads in glee getting everywhere free....god we all are feeling sorry tht we were born into a good family....

do u know tht the most reputed govt college in kerala CET tvm was supposed to be IIT last year...the review borad said go ahead but the college staff put forth a condn and local stud council...u know wat ther shld be reservations ther too....review board said piss off this is IIT not any govt college...they said no thanks we are goin back....

atleast reservations shld be kept out of places like this...these are places where merit is the only measure not caste....


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## anand1 (Apr 10, 2008)

No comment   its better for not to comment.


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

guys guys relax, get urself the new certificate of merit -The OBC Certificate, look at the benefits: we wont have to study as much, more time see movies/porn/forums/friends, fees will be less


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## gunda_26 (Apr 10, 2008)

"Apartheid "regime of India.Better go to south Africa.


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## slugger (Apr 10, 2008)

Well I just got to watch the telly now, it appears that the court has issued directives to leave the *Creamy Layer* out of the reservation benefits

the criteria of creamy layer is earning *2.5 lakhs pa* - not a very difficult task for a freasher IMO

well it is obviously not an ideal world. but i guess by removing the creamy layer from the picture, you ensure that only the *economically challenged people* can claim benefits of reservation

in the menwhile the govt should work towards improving the educational infrastructure of the country. these things take time.

until that time *reservation for the poor* looks like an acceptable compromise


and for all those who fall in the *General category*

become a UT each sem. reservation or no reservation will not make any difference


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

iMav said:


> guys guys relax, get urself the new certificate of merit -The OBC Certificate, look at the benefits: we wont have to study as much, more time see movies/porn/forums/friends, fees will be less


weirdly makes sense. we don't know where we came from, we don't know where we are going to... f*ck as much as you can in the middle!


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## praka123 (Apr 10, 2008)

hmm...centre also going the taamil nadu way !give reservation upto 90%?


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

I don't know much reg. individual states... is TN one of the worst in this regard? I wouldn't be surprised though.


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## kumarmohit (Apr 10, 2008)

I do not think that they are going to cross the 50% barrier. Human rights activists would go crazy and it would be an open flouting of the constitution!


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

^ ^ well, that makes me happy!


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## infra_red_dude (Apr 10, 2008)

Why should reservations be there at all? Aren't we all human beings with our brainz in the same place? IMHO the govt. should give reservations to those people who haf kidneys in their skull for they are not that intelligent and hence require some slack in marks/work. For all those who haf their kidneys and brainz in the right place there should be no reservation!

Give incentives/reservations to the poor. Why should a student from the poor family be denied education juz coz he's unable to pay? Isn't it violation of right to freedom? A rich person producing an OBC cert. gets the best education for free. A poor student of the general category is working as a labourer only coz he was unable to study due to high fees. The same can be said about the reserved categories. We haf diff. % or reserv. for SC/ST/OBC. Why should a person from ST be denied education just coz quota is over? While an underdeserving SC candidate gets his seat? Clearly if at all there is reservation it should be there on the basis of economic status. There is no point in reservation. If the candidate is not fit for the course/work he should be shown the door, no matter whether he belongs to the General, upper caste, lower caste, sc/st/obc whatever! If you are not fit, fcuk off! But if you are fit and unable to get a seat due to high fees, then yes you should be given incentives...

Its high time we drag these bloody fscking SoB MF'ing politicians to the streets and frag them bigtime.. Urban Terror, anyone??!!!!


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

rakho reservation but 50 f*cking % obc/sc/st share 50% seats amongst themselves and then there are student with 90%+ who dont get admission coz there are so freaking many abv 90 itself, iit iim aiim fee hike is passed by 1 committee of the govt and then there is another committee of the same govt saying that fees are too hight they need reservation .... kya ch*tiya samajh rakha hai humko


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## slugger (Apr 10, 2008)

no member from the _other side_ i guess 

getting very 1 sided


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## ray|raven (Apr 10, 2008)

^Thats why its still in chit-chat


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## slugger (Apr 10, 2008)

rayraven said:


> ^Thats why its still in chit-chat



and in all likelyhood it will continue to remain here 

...unless of course someone stands up and plays devil's advocate


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

what do u want from the other side .... that they dont have proper resources to study they dont have fees to pay for classes therefore they need less cut-offs and reservation

if they dont have resources doesnt mean that the ones who have them suffer, u want to put these dim wits in iims/iits then accommodate the others who worked their freaking a$$ off, we dont have seats for the deserving and u want the others to be given priority


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## drgrudge (Apr 10, 2008)

Why are you blaming the govt? I thought that the people are the ones who voted them to power? When we have election, people cool off in "weekend getaways". 

Don't tell that there are good politicians. What's stopping you from joining politics? We can stand for elections, we vote for the people we want. 

The govt. take care of people who have voted and who will vote for them. Why should they bother about you? You were the one who enjoyed an extended holiday at Ooty, right?


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## praka123 (Apr 10, 2008)

most members from TN will be from OBC/SC/ST only!they are too busy enjoying the freebies,I suppose


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## slugger (Apr 10, 2008)

iMav said:


> what do u want from the other side .... that they dont have proper resources to study they dont have fees to pay for classes therefore they need less cut-offs and reservation



i bet you won't have the guts to say this to your maid servent, gardener, rick/taxi drivers etc

and neither will i see you taking to the streets in protest and facing the water canon with your chest facing the canon (or for that matter any part your body facing the canon or lathi)

*armchair revolutionaries* we all are


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

drgrudge said:


> Why are you blaming the govt? I thought that the people are the ones who voted them to power? When we have election, people cool off in "weekend getaways".
> 
> Don't tell that there are good politicians. What's stopping you from joining politics? We can stand for elections, we vote for the people we want.
> 
> The govt. take care of people who have voted and who will vote for them. Why should they bother about you? You were the one who enjoyed an extended holiday at Ooty, right?


govt will always be blamed and we cant do anything abt it, we are the middle class we are busy living our lives, we like to be squeezed in the local trains we like ppl stamping on out feet in the bus

the thing that surprises me is that the courts also found no problem with giving 50% seats to the so called sc/st/obc .... im seriously gonna find out whether i can get myself a obc certificate

and grudgy - as i hav siad earlier bombay/delhi/chennai dont make vote banks its the castes that win elections so add that to ur equation of ooty



slugger said:


> i bet you won't have the guts to say this to your maid servent, gardener, rick/taxi drivers etc
> 
> and neither will i see you taking to the streets in protest and facing the water canon with your chest facing the canon
> 
> *armchair revolutionaries* we all are


i said this in my original post itself  last para


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## slugger (Apr 10, 2008)

iMav said:


> i said this in my original post itself  last para



in comparison to the colourful responses that followed your post, the origianl completely slipped my attention 

But IMO there is not point talking *if you cant make the talk walk*

if you so distressed by it, then get yourself into a position of power where you hob-nob with the power elite of the country and become person who is capable of dictating the countries policy decisions

talking about it and cursing and abusing the _other side_ is IMO an exercise in futility

No MP IAS would ever have heard about thinkdigit forum and would'nt give a hoot to what we say withing the cosy confines of the forum


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## drgrudge (Apr 10, 2008)

iMav said:


> govt will always be blamed and we cant do anything abt it, we are the middle class we are busy living our lives, we like to be squeezed in the local trains we like ppl stamping on out feet in the bus
> 
> and grudgy - as i hav siad earlier bombay/delhi/chennai dont make vote banks its the castes that win elections so add that to ur equation of ooty


What busy? It hardly took 10-15 mins for me to vote in the last General Elections. Govt. know you're busy so they declare holiday.


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## Pathik (Apr 10, 2008)

@sluggy
It's cos the bloody creamy layer wala idiots don't have the guts to argue over this. They ll be pawn3d.


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

slugger said:


> if you so distressed by it, then get yourself into a position of power where you hob-nob with the power elite of the country and become person who is capable of dictating the countries policy decisions


 u have no idea how much i wanna get there

grudgy it took u 15 mins - it took these govt guys 7months and 4 visits from me to get my voter card made - all docs properly signed and given everything first time itself


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## slugger (Apr 10, 2008)

Pathik said:


> @sluggy
> It's cos the bloody creamy layer wala idiots don't have the guts to argue over this. They ll be pawn3d.



the creamy layer has been excluded anyway

they too in fact should start cursing the Supreme Court ruling...though for a different reason

though Ram Vil Paswan is making his displeasure known about this exclusion on telly...who knows, maybe the govt will oppose this SC directive *Election year*


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## infra_red_dude (Apr 10, 2008)

You think politicians are elected by our votes?

Can someone explain to me the need for reservations? I'm not sarcastic or anything. I'm totally confused. Where are there reservations anyway?


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

slugger said:


> But IMO there is not point talking *if you cant make the talk walk*
> 
> if you so distressed by it, then get yourself into a position of power where you hob-nob with the power elite of the country and become person who is capable of dictating the countries policy decisions


there is not point in talking about making a walk or even knowing it,  if you don't start to talk. ( IF only Gandhi had thought like you and stopped fighting with non-violence for it dint yield into fruition initially...)
but then, you shouldn't be having any problems I guess, coz your opinion is to always go with the system, right?


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

there are no rights and wrongs - only power


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## slugger (Apr 10, 2008)

iMav said:


> there are no rights and wrongs - only power



exactly


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## drgrudge (Apr 10, 2008)

iMav said:


> grudgy it took u 15 mins - it took these govt guys 7months and 4 visits from me to get my voter card made - all docs properly signed and given everything first time itself


I also don't have voter card. I voted in the State and General Election with my Driving license. I don't think this voter ID is mandatory, EC themselves said any ID issued by the govt. (Driving License, Passport, etc..) is sufficient. 

I hardly see any middle class people (leave alone the 'elite') at the election booth. IMO, it's because of us that we're in this issue.


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

drgrudge said:


> Why are you blaming the govt? I thought that the people are the ones who voted them to power?



and I thought, India is a democratic country and that the government is for the people... without any discrimination  and people retort against any potential injustice or conflicting opinions (at least the majority who are offended) to voice their concerns and to shed light into the issue and the government would be obliged to think/rethink and justify the issue laid and convince the people reg. the good the plan can lead to!!  


iMav said:


> there are no rights and wrongs - only power



good punch line for a movie!  a few get brainwashed too!


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

infra_red_dude said:


> Can someone explain to me the need for reservations? I'm not sarcastic or anything. I'm totally confused. Where are there reservations anyway?



imagine sonia gandhi at a rally in UP bihar jharkhand saying: 

humne paanch naye iit banaye 

and now imagine her saying:

humne aap jaise *deprived* logon ke liye reservation karaye

- now whats gonna turn into more votes whats gonna get them more mileage


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## slugger (Apr 10, 2008)

No matter which govt comes to power minority appeasement will contnue as long as they constitute a significant population of the country

This Reservation bill was passed in the Parliament with unanimous result...even the commies did not oppose the bill that is based on casteist lines

no party can oppose this bill and hope to win a seat the next election...*sad and unfortunate it is but also equally true*


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## drgrudge (Apr 10, 2008)

infra_red_dude said:


> You think politicians are elected by our votes?


Then? Yeah, they might bribe a few, give money and ask to vote for them but what the middle class and the upper class did during the election day? 

With the paper ballots done away and EC given sufficient power, I don't think there's any rigging in the polls.


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

they simply cant oppose they do it they are screwed any party who opposes this bill is f*cked in elections


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## infra_red_dude (Apr 10, 2008)

iMav said:


> imagine sonia gandhi at a rally in UP bihar jharkhand saying:
> 
> humne paanch naye iit banaye
> 
> ...



That is a political reason. What is the justification the govt. gives for implementing reservations? I mean, what is the motive behind reservations (the ideal motive I mean which is in the party's CMP).


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## praka123 (Apr 10, 2008)

middle class?I feel OP are saying about upper middle class


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## Pathik (Apr 10, 2008)

*www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/002200804101625.htm
Now why(TF) is Ramadoss disappointed by the exclusion of the creamy layer?


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

@ani

it is needed to improve the std of living and providing equal opportunities to all no matter what caste or creed they belong to


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## drgrudge (Apr 10, 2008)

legolas said:


> and I thought, India is a democratic country and that the government is for the people... without any discrimination  and people retort against any potential injustice or conflicting opinions (at least the majority who are offended) to voice their concerns and to shed light into the issue and the government would be obliged to think/rethink and justify the issue laid and convince the people reg. the good the plan can lead to!!


Yes, I think you've learnt your lesson the hard way. Never mind, everyone make mistakes. Next time around don't vote for Congress, BJP, BSP, NCP, Left or whomever you think is not suitable to run the govt.


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

^ ^ to get attention!


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## infra_red_dude (Apr 10, 2008)

iMav said:


> it is needed to improve the std of living and providing equal opportunities to all no matter what caste or creed they belong to


How are they "providing equal opportunities to all" by implementing "reservations". Isn't reservations a fundamentally opposite thing what they wanna implement? 

I mean.. equal opportunities with reservations??!!??


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

drgrudge said:


> Yes, I think you've learnt your lesson the hard way. Never mind, everyone make mistakes. Next time around don't vote for Congress, BJP, BSP, NCP, Left or whomever you think is not suitable to run the govt.


u know what, when they were shifting to the electronic machines talks of having none of the above were there, but then the EC realised that putting this would result in a hung assembly and no proper govt will be formed and that is the reason why none of the abv is not included


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## slugger (Apr 10, 2008)

Pathik said:


> *www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/002200804101625.htm
> Now why(TF) is Ramadoss disappointed by the exclusion of the creamy layer?



that is because most of the economically poor OBC would be unable to fill up the seats
once they lose the chance the seats become available for the open category students

it is the Creamy layer who fill up magority of the OBC seats anyway

so in effect the bill in its current form will not act as a total minority appeasement decision

Mark my words *Creamy layer will also be included* with some ammendments to the law


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

drgrudge said:


> Yes, I think you've learnt your lesson the hard way. Never mind, *everyone make mistakes*. Next time around don't vote for Congress, BJP, BSP, NCP, Left or whomever you think is not suitable to run the govt.


we all agree every1 makes mistakes. but your telling that "we elected the government so don't blame them" is what I find difficult to comprehend.
we elected the government to do good for us, realizing its democratic and that people will question the decisions if it is wrong or condescending, everyone makes mistakes. if they think its good, justify it. not with crazy talk. but with the good it will inflict upon the community to make the better world tomorrow!!


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

infra_red_dude said:


> How are they "providing equal opportunities to all" by implementing "reservations". Isn't reservations a fundamentally opposite thing what they wanna implement?
> 
> I mean.. equal opportunities with reservations??!!??


im not saying its the govts who are saying this


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## drgrudge (Apr 10, 2008)

iMav said:


> u know what, when they were shifting to the electronic machines talks of having none of the above were there, but then the EC realised that putting this would result in a hung assembly and no proper govt will be formed and that is the reason why none of the abv is not included


I posted something and you commenting something?  Can you be clear? 

_Moved to Fight Club_.


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## kumarmohit (Apr 10, 2008)

@ grudgy 

I would happily contest in elections but the only thing is that where I live, the Municipal Councillor and MLA seats are reserved for women and parliamentary seat is reserved for SC. 

This only leaves me open for Presidential elections but I am too young for that and moreover president does not have any real power in this regard in India.


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

infra_red_dude said:


> I mean.. equal opportunities with reservations??!!??


hahahahaa  

how is this system in anyways helping the poor, who can't even finish schooling, let alone being interested in joining college... Isn't there where the problem is, which could be eradicated by providing scholarships, imposing fee regulations on institutions, monitoring and stuffs??


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## slugger (Apr 10, 2008)

do you know, that you can actually go to the polling station and declare that you would not like to vote for any of the existing candidate. There is a clause that allows us to do that

If the magority of people choose this option, the political parties have to select new candidates for contesting

read it in JAM a long time back


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

kumarmohit said:


> @ grudgy
> 
> I would happily contest in elections but the only thing is that where I live, the Municipal Councillor and MLA seats are reserved for women and parliamentary seat is reserved for SC.
> 
> This only leaves me open for Presidential elections but I am too young for that and moreover president does not have any real power in this regard in India.


 ROTFL



slugger said:


> do you know, that you can actually go to the polling station and declare that you would not like to vote for any of the existing candidate. There is a clause that allows us to do that
> 
> If the magority of people choose this option, the political parties have to select new candidates for contesting
> 
> read it in JAM a long time back


Wow, I dint know about this. I hope this really happens when/if it has to!


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## infra_red_dude (Apr 10, 2008)

I really don't understand one thing.. the Govt. is openly calling the so-called backward classes incapable of doing anything unless reservations are provided!! (wtf is a backward class??!!! we all are equal.. we are human beings..)

I wonder who would liked to be called as a backward class.. isn't it a blot on his/her face to be called as someone backward? The Govt. is publically insulting them by calling backward!

I stand by my statement that if a person is not fit for a course/job, no reservation is gonna uplift him or her. That person should be shown the door, be it from the so-called "upper caste" or from "lower caste"!


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## slugger (Apr 10, 2008)

y was it moved to fight club? 

everybody seems to agree that *Reservations suxxx*


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

slugger said:


> do you know, that you can actually go to the polling station and declare that you would not like to vote for any of the existing candidate. There is a clause that allows us to do that
> 
> If the magority of people choose this option, the political parties have to select new candidates for contesting
> 
> read it in JAM a long time back


from what i know is that there is no such option of none of the abv on the ballot boxes



drgrudge said:


> I posted something and you commenting something?  Can you be clear?
> 
> _Moved to Fight Club_.


what i meant was that if we dont vote the 1 who we dont see fit, we wont have a govt


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

^ ^ to add to Imav's point,
We are not expecting an ideal/perfect government.
We only expect an understanding and flexible government which respects the people's opinions.

@infra_red_dude, what you say is very right. Actually speaking, the government is publicly insulting the backward caste reg. their incapability (even though in reality its not the case) and instead of condemning this misdemeanor, we appreciate it (as long as we can enjoy the privileges)!! 

Its like getting into a religion to gain the benefits or converting from 1 religion to another because the benefits in the other is more!

@slugger, I don't think so, playing the devil's advocate also means *"fight"*


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## kumarmohit (Apr 10, 2008)

^^ like we have any government in the true sense of the word now!


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## slugger (Apr 10, 2008)

iMav said:


> from what i know is that there is no such option of none of the abv on the ballot boxes



it is not present on the EVM

u have to choose this option with the EC representative at the polling station. Your finger will even be inked for choosing this


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## drgrudge (Apr 10, 2008)

kumarmohit said:


> I would happily contest in elections but the only thing is that where I live, the Municipal Councillor and MLA seats are reserved for women and parliamentary seat is reserved for SC.


Lol, this is interesting. I never knew that seats are reserved based on castes.



legolas said:


> we all agree every1 makes mistakes. but your telling that "we elected the government so don't blame them" is what I find difficult to comprehend.


See here's the problem. See the party manifesto of Congress, BSP, BJP and even regional parties like DMK, AIADMK, PMK, etc... "*When we come to power, we'll implement the reservation for OBCs*". I think some party (TDP, I guess - not sure) said they'll implement reservations for backward Muslims and Christians also. 

There was one party, Lok Partitran which didn't have anything like this. So who is to blame when you land up in this? 




legolas said:


> we elected the government to do good for us, realizing its democratic and that people will question the decisions if it is wrong or condescending, everyone makes mistakes. if they think its good, justify it. not with crazy talk. but with the good it will inflict upon the community to make the better world tomorrow!!


Isn't that subjective? If you're OBC person (or atleast have a certificate), you'll be happy. The govt. did good for me.


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## kumarmohit (Apr 10, 2008)

And how is it going to help me?
Even if they would bring new ppl the ppl would still come there coz of the reservations.


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## infra_red_dude (Apr 10, 2008)

iMav said:


> from what i know is that there is no such option of none of the abv on the ballot boxes


Naah.. you can always tell them that you will NOT vote, in which case they will cast a proxy vote for you! 



iMav said:


> what i meant was that if we dont vote the 1 who we dont see fit, we wont have a govt


Frankly thats the best thing.. Its been about 3-4 months since there is no Govt. in Karnataka and we've never been so happy


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## kumarmohit (Apr 10, 2008)

drgrudge said:


> Lol, this is interesting. I never knew that seats are reserved based on castes.



Time to wake up grudgy my boy, matters have gone 0ut 0f Control.


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

drgrudge said:


> Isn't that subjective? If you're OBC person (or at least have a certificate), you'll be happy. The govt. did good for me.


Well in that case, the government is not doing the good for people.
Its doing good for "one class of people"... which is perfectly good when it "doesn't affect any other class of people".

And that is what is not a visionary decision... which will further the development, progress and result in betterment.. Its a medieval illogical decision to stay in power.


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## slugger (Apr 10, 2008)

ok found it

*Rule 49O*


> 49O. *Elector deciding not to vote*.-If an elector, after his electoral roll number has been duly entered in the register of voters in Form-17A and has put his signature or thumb impression thereon as required under sub-rule (1) of rule 49L, *decided not to record his vote*, a remark to this effect shall be made against the said entry in Form 17A by the presiding officer and the signature or thumb impression of the elector shall be obtained against such remark.



*Source*


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## kumarmohit (Apr 10, 2008)

again how does it help me?


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## drgrudge (Apr 10, 2008)

infra_red_dude said:


> I really don't understand one thing.. the Govt. is openly calling the so-called backward classes incapable of doing anything unless reservations are provided!! (wtf is a backward class??!!! we all are equal.. we are human beings..)
> 
> I wonder who would liked to be called as a backward class.. isn't it a blot on his/her face to be called as someone backward? The Govt. is publically insulting them by calling backward!
> 
> I stand by my statement that if a person is not fit for a course/job, no reservation is gonna uplift him or her. That person should be shown the door, be it from the so-called "upper caste" or from "lower caste"!


Didn't you study history? Heard Raja Ram Mohan Roy? The reservations are stuck here because the SCs, STs and the OBCs were 'ill treated' (barred from temples, jobs like sanitary or undertaker were given to them, untouchability was prevalent, education denied, etc..). Over a period of time, they were backward in the society. To make up for the loss, the reservation system was introduced long time back.


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

slugger said:


> ok found it
> 
> *Rule 49O*
> 
> ...


hmmm interesting thank u ....elections here come to vote for no 1


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## kumarmohit (Apr 10, 2008)

Me too! And I would be voting against reservations both literally and figuratively!


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

drgrudge said:


> Didn't you study history? Heard Raja Ram Mohan Roy? The reservations are stuck here because the SCs, STs and the OBCs were 'ill treated' (barred from temples, jobs like sanitary or undertaker were given to them, untouchability was prevalent, education denied, etc..). Over a period of time, they were backward in the society. To make up for the loss, the reservation system was introduced long time back.


are they still? becoz the reservation keeps on increasing!! Doesn't it tell anything about the system then??


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## slugger (Apr 10, 2008)

thinkdigit members should have their own seperate constituancy

everything will be *perfect* here


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## drgrudge (Apr 10, 2008)

legolas said:


> Well in that case, the government is not doing the good for people.
> Its doing good for "one class of people"... which is perfectly good when it "doesn't affect any other class of people".
> 
> And that is what is not a visionary decision... which will further the development, progress and result in betterment.. Its a medieval illogical decision to stay in power.


You're not getting my point. 

Congress tell they'll reserve 50% of the seats if they come to power. It's your choice if you want to vote for them. 

Eventually Congress came to power. It's assumed that since people voted for us, they want us to implement reservations or atleast a majority of the people want it. 


People, seriously go and vote in the next elections. It hardly takes 15 mins and usually I've good time seeing the chicks in the booth.


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## slugger (Apr 10, 2008)

legolas said:


> are they still?



there are temples in the south and orissa where they are still barred from entry

a hole is cut through the wall for them to view and pray


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## kumarmohit (Apr 10, 2008)

@ grudgy 

The British ruled India for 190 years in a ruthless manner. Should we attack the island and make them pay back for something their predecessors did. No we do not do it. instead we take pleasure in hosting commonwealth games becuase they are a symbol of equality.

What is happening here is more revenge than repair! The general approach is incorrect.


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## drgrudge (Apr 10, 2008)

Mohit and legolas - 

Agreed that they still are not. But I just posted why the reservations are there. It was pointed to infra_red_dude's query. 

I'm not saying reservations are bad (or good). All I want to say is because of us, we are in this issue now.


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

slugger said:


> there are temples in the south and orissa where they are still barred from entry
> a hole is cut through the wall for them to view and pray


so, what does the government do about it?

@grudgy, I get your point. the people who vote for congress knew what their policies were, is what you are insinuating. Well, yes, that is true. but, what I would like to say is, we can't agree with all the policies a party is canvassing.. Becoz, they try to cajole *all the masses*. We vote the best and hope they will hear our causes.


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## kumarmohit (Apr 10, 2008)

Point ! We fcuked up the matters now it is our task to puit things right. Only thing is my condition is FUBAR.

And how do they check the person's caste before deciding of he enters or not. Do they carry i Cards? And even if such things happen, in how many temples? 5,10, 20, 100, 500 no chance of any more temples having such rules.

Why fcuk all the people for this?


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## slugger (Apr 10, 2008)

legolas said:


> so, what does the government do about it?



nothing at all. we still do not hava a *Uniform civil code* in place

in our country the *different people...different rules* is actually endorsed by the state



kumarmohit said:


> And how do they check the person's caste before deciding of he enters or not. Do they carry i Cards? And even if such things happen, in how many temples? 5,10, 20, 100, 500 no chance of any more temples having such rules.



the places of worship in question are mostyl located in village semi-village regions where most people are known to the others and theor cast is public knowledge

but the fact that such a discrimiantion is still practised is the unfortunate part, because every region no matter how rural comes under the jurisdiction of the civic administration who has the authority to take actions against the offending parties practising this discrimination

*But they do nothing about it*


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

slugger said:


> thinkdigit members should have their own seperate constituancy
> 
> everything will be *perfect* here



yes all be perfect thinkdigit constituency:

50% reservation for MS supporters
25% for OSS
25% for apple


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

slugger said:


> nothing at all.


The government is so not actually interested in clearing the black dot with regard to "backward caste"...  its a pity.
@mohit, very true, even if they weren't allowed, I don't think its security is that big to not go inside... you can always pretend to be a person from "forward" caste if you needed so badly to get inside.


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## infra_red_dude (Apr 10, 2008)

drgrudge said:


> Didn't you study history? Heard Raja Ram Mohan Roy? The reservations are stuck here because the SCs, STs and the OBCs were 'ill treated' (barred from temples, jobs like sanitary or undertaker were given to them, untouchability was prevalent, education denied, etc..). Over a period of time, they were backward in the society. To make up for the loss, the reservation system was introduced long time back.


Thats what I'm asking. How will reservations uplift them??!! Does it mean that because a certain section of people were _"barred from temples, jobs like sanitary or undertaker were given to them, untouchability was prevalent, education denied, etc.." _they were not humans anymore? A human brain is same.. whether the person is from the so-called "upper caste" or "lower caste". 

I can understand that the mental status of the people doing those work in the olden dayz was not good. What they need is love, care and acceptance in the society. But then that was the mental status in those olden dayz. 

Dont' temme that even today untouchability is existent! (Lets get practical and not talk about the case prevalent in some village 2000kms from Andaman islands!). 

A human brain will NOT lose its characteristics according to the situation. Its like a waterfall. When its dry it doesn't work. When its full of water (fuel - education in this case), it shines in its full glory. Hafn't we seen genius folks from the so called "backward classes"?

How will reservations helping them? Aren't they limiting the person's development? For a general merit student the cut off is 500, for a reserved category student its only 300. So isn't the reserved category student studying only for those 300 marks? Is he really getting the education? Is reservation really aiding him?

Reservations should be abolished. For the upliftment of the so-called backward classes, Govt. should instead start extra classes/coaching for the weaker people; be it studies or work. Only that would make these weaker people stand head to head with others; and mind you the "other" here can be a general merit student or can be a student from the so-called backward classes! That is real development of the weaker students from so-called backward classes, not reservations!


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

^ ^ @infra_red_dude,
to play devil's advocate to this argument... The fact is, the guy who studied only for 300 marks of course wouldn't contribute much constructively to the society as say the guy who was more inclined. And lets be practical here.. the guy with 300, *his attitude is to exploit the system and get into a descent job where he can get a girl with good job as well and settle... As a result, it increases his standard of living*. With which, the next generation would get the best education right from the start, motivation, dedication and everything to the fullest which would in ideal practice help the people. 

Unfortunately, we don't know when or where to stop and how to know the next generation is provided with everything sufficiently that these things are no more necessary! 

again, as you said.. lets not get carried away by people 2000kms from andaman or the like... of course those people should be still lifted.


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## Gigacore (Apr 10, 2008)

damn, 5000 Reservations for SC/ST in BE (Karnataka) out of which only 500 will go for it...


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## infra_red_dude (Apr 10, 2008)

legolas said:


> ^ ^ @infra_red_dude,
> to play devil's advocate to this argument... The fact is, the guy who studied only for 300 marks of course wouldn't contribute much constructively to the society as say the guy who was more inclined. And lets be practical here.. the guy with 300, *his attitude is to exploit the system and get into a descent job where he can get a girl with good job as well and settle... As a result, it increases his standard of living*. With which, the next generation would get the best education right from the start, motivation, dedication and everything to the fullest which would in ideal practice help the people.


So going by this.. isn't the 50 years of "exploitation" enuff to get a decent job, girl and settle?



legolas said:


> Unfortunately, we don't know when or where to stop and how to know the next generation is provided with everything sufficiently that these things are no more necessary!
> 
> again, as you said.. lets not get carried away by people 2000kms from andaman or the like... of course those people should be still lifted.


Thats the whole point! Give extra coaching to students who need them coming from those so-called backward classes and GIVE reservations to people in those villages!!! Give them reservation to ENTER THE TEMPLE, TO LIVE IN THE VILLAGE!!! That is equality! Tell the so-called upper caste that ALL HUMANS ARE EQUAL!

What we are doing today is: there is a fractured leg but we are giving treatment for cancer! And everybody is happy that they are getting free cancer treatment forgetting that there is a fractured leg which will not allow them to go forward!!!


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## int86 (Apr 10, 2008)

In my opinion our country needs reservation. But 100% of reservation benefits wrong person.
Better to stop reservation or do amendments for a better India.


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## kumarmohit (Apr 10, 2008)

Even if you want give them reservation for better education, give it at the school level. Those are able to sit in IIT JEE are not backwards. The test charges cost above 1000 Rs.


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

int86 said:


> In my opinion our country needs reservation.


why do you think so? when you are perfectly healthy and you and I are no different in competing ( except may be the efforts) and still why do you feel there has to be a special concern and uplift? Is it because of insecure(ness)?


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## int86 (Apr 10, 2008)

@legolas
Draw conclusion after reading full post.

4 year ago I had to walk 10km to a village, as it had no roads, leave other basic amminities which we dont care.


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

^ ^ i read the full post. I just quoted your opinion and questioned yours.
Again, with what you wrote in your reply, don't you think the 10 km walk is done by people from other castes too?? and they should also be therefore entitled to the reservation (say, forward castes)

your reservation is more or less "financially related" i guess, which is much more noble rather than "caste motivated" and its the latter which is the problem under discussion and that is why, myself, mohit, and infra_red_dude are trying to suggest as to improve the status of the poor by implementing schemes such as scholarships and extra coaching classes to aid them, so that they can stand for themselves and not let the government call them backward anymore.


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## FilledVoid (Apr 10, 2008)

Reservations made on caste should have been killed ages ago. Unfortunately now people are exploiting that using it as a trump card. However in my opinion I wouldn't mind benefits for people from backward classes which would enable them to compete with others on equal grounds (as in getting the proper education and facilities required for it).

As far as the reservations goes it was set in such a way that that the SC/ ST who were the oppressed then would get opportunities based on the environment of that prehistoric time . Rather than reducing it over time . Politicians used it as leverage for their political campaigns and they have been increasing it over time rather than reducing it. The part who does reduce it to lower percentages would most likely be booted from the next election with a landslide loss.



> Even if you want give them reservation for better education, give it at the school level. Those are able to sit in IIT JEE are not backwards. The test charges cost above 1000 Rs.


Just cause the wards parents can somehow manage to make Rs 1000 for their child doesn't mean that they arent backward. 



> 4 year ago I had to walk 10km to a village, as it had no roads, leave other basic amminities which we dont care.


So basically your saying that everyone should be punished because of the Government's inability to provide the village with infrastructure required? Let me give you a simple example. 

A college has 10 seats ( Its a small college ) 
Out of which 50% is reserved for SC / ST whatever .
We have 100 students who don't fit this category and they have 95 - 99% marks. Which means 95 of those students are seriously unlucky although they tried their best. Now lets say some people who use the SC / ST trump card come by who have 50-60% . The other 95% got screwed over by people who didnt even deserve the seats in the first place. I find this hard to digest. How does reservation level the competition or give * EQUAL * opportunities ? Well thats easy..... It doesn't. It just gives them an unfair advantage. 

PS. Somehow I overwrote my original edit :s. So the text might be different now from what I posted earlier.


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## infra_red_dude (Apr 10, 2008)

Has anyone heard news like: Infosys sacks 50 Dalits!!???!! NO! Has anyone heard news that some XYZ public sector company employees molest and manhandle a dalit co-worker?? YES!!!

So what is the conclusion? The Govt. is making the so-called backward classes vulnerable to abuse by identifying them as "backward class"!


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## DigitalDude (Apr 10, 2008)

slugger said:


> no member from the _other side_ i guess
> getting very 1 sided


 
I was keeping quiet since I felt talking and ranting here is just useless. But slugger wanted some argument from the other side and Pathik was indulging in name-calling. and discussions are already spiralling so fast.. So I dont want to keep mum. Let me also join the rant party guess I'm very very late 

I come under OBC Creamy Layer 

you guys should give credit to the SC in atleast stopping people like me from entering the premium institutions riding on the back of reservation. Thats a laudable move.



Pathik said:


> @sluggy
> It's cos the bloody creamy layer wala idiots don't have the guts to argue over this. They ll be pawn3d.


what pwned.. I never asked for any reservation... dont talk like a kid 
being in creamy layer or backward class doesn't mean people are idiots. I'm smarter, more intelligent than many of my so called general category classmates  so being stupid or intelligent does not have anything to do here. if you are angry show it on the govt not on the people.

*What is my view?* I, like everyone, feel that reservations are *totally unnecessary* in its current form and mostly pursued by the present day governments due to fear of a communal backlash.

Even reservations should not be given solely because of financial conditions... if that was the case a lot of people become poor by choice and by their actions so they clearly dont deserve anything.. 

so reservations are more justifiable when they are based on socio-economic conditions rather than on social or economic conditions considered alone. hope I'm clear.

No educated guy can deny that the matter of reservations, though long ago had some merit and a noble goal of bringing up the long oppressed classes in India, is being highly manipulated by the Political Parties for their own good. Infact this is the only thing they ALL are united. Just like any other issue that these political parties do to benefit themselves. But this matter has become so sensitive because it directly affects the future of the youth in this country.

Observing the discussions in this thread I can say the following points:

1) Everyone is highly furious over reservations  ok acceptable
2) a few are directly attacking the people of the reserved class in general... what am I to do  what is the mistake with me ???
3) Most of the people dont even know the original aims of the reservation policy. though it is now implemented *not* for fulfilling those early aims.
4) Most of you dont have any idea of how bad caste situations are in the major part of India - the villages... even in many parts of the cities
5) Indulging in name-calling 'other side' when there is no one to speak for. idiots, dim-wits, brainless ?? lol wat else.
6) not many realise that just by venting your anger here you cant even move a strand of hair of the actual situation
7) no one dare to play the devil's advocate for fear of getting flamed by an entire forum  with exception of slugger...

as even I'm on the same boat, like slugger said, there is no one to give counter points.

But I can talk a lot about this matter sensibly and even give individual replies to answer many misconceptions (like praka's and legolas' view about TN) but its of no use. You guys should remember that getting angry and animated is no solution to any problem. If you are genuinely concerned about the society take matters to your hand. Go do it instead of cribbing and whining.. "mommy govt reservzz seats I has no placee"  take things in your hands join politics or civil services or judiciary, secure India from MOFO politicians.

either change the rule/rulemakers, show dissent in an educated way or just play by the rules.

but inparticular I have to point out one single statement mainly:


madjeri said:


> FCUK............we h ave to pay our ass through fees and they rubbing their hnads in glee getting everywhere free....*god we all are feeling sorry tht we were born into a good family*....


 
so does that mean general category is good family and reserved category is bad family ?? hmmm this is called racism.. a crime..
and no mate where they are giving fees concession to OBCs ?? you may be talking about SC/STs



kumarmohit said:


> I do not think that they are going to cross the 50% barrier. Human rights activists would go crazy and it would be an open flouting of the constitution!


you do realise that the highest guardian of the Indian Constitution the SC upheld this law ?? what is a 1 or 2% more 



iMav said:


> u have no idea how much i wanna get there


want != goal



legolas said:


> ... you can always pretend to be a person from "forward" caste if you needed so badly to get inside.


ROFL.. this is what I referred in my point no.4




infra_red_dude said:


> Has anyone heard news like: Infosys sacks 50 Dalits!!???!! NO! Has anyone heard news that some XYZ public sector company employees molest and manhandle a dalit co-worker?? YES!!!
> 
> So what is the conclusion? The Govt. is making the so-called backward classes vulnerable to abuse by identifying them as "backward class"!


 
what do you mean.. this happens everywhere.. a lot of BPO cases these days.. go figure.. what this has got to do with the reservation policy ???



infra_red_dude said:


> I really don't understand one thing.. the Govt. is openly calling the so-called backward classes incapable of doing anything unless reservations are provided!! (wtf is a backward class??!!! we all are equal.. we are human beings..)


this is your personal opinion. as I had said in point 3 you are unaware of the original aims of the reservation philosophy.. and its not my work to educate you...
and I dunno whether you can get a balanced view if you looked up on wikipedia or googled it  
yes we are all human beings but that was realised very late... and still not realised in majority of India



infra_red_dude said:


> I wonder who would liked to be called as a backward class.. isn't it a blot on his/her face to be called as someone backward? The Govt. is publically insulting them by calling backward!


 
its not a blot on someone's face to be in the backward community... the govt is not insulting them.. but your are just making it appear so because you think backward class people are inferior. you call a cobbler a cobbler as simple as that if you feel being a cobbler is a shame then you are the one who is to be shameful. govt should actually provide opportunities to those backward people but they are playing a diff game thats a diff story altogether... you just need to clear up a lot of misconceptions in your mind.



infra_red_dude said:


> I stand by my statement that if a person is not fit for a course/job, no reservation is gonna uplift him or her. That person should be shown the door, be it from the so-called "upper caste" or from "lower caste"!


This is a logical argument. In an ideal situation the statement holds good and in private sector you dont have much problem... but when it comes to reality and in public sector there are a ton of things like caste politics in work.. theres a whole book about itself... sorry but thats outta my scope..
May be our generation will stand true to what you have said.


But what to do... As already it has been pointed out by other members, we armchair executives do a good job of ranting fed well by the sensationalist media while all the time closely taking care of stuff that only affects us and people around us directly, not giving a damn to other serious social issues.  

I dont have any personal tussle with anyone in the above mentioned quotes.. its not their fault. the society is to be blamed for the misconceptions.

As any Indian who wants good for his country, I also wish the situation changes. But it will not happen on its own.. and I dont have guts to take it in my hands so obviously I would just be cursing the system and grudgingly moving along.

we cant do much by arguing...

*Be the change you want to see in the world. or else just get on with it.*



p.s. now legolas and slugger dont show me that comic  k? 

_


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

digitaldude said:
			
		

> blah blah blah


 and your point is?


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## DigitalDude (Apr 10, 2008)

^^^

nice quote  btw this whole thread is blah blah only so expected anything different ?

Written in numbered Lists at the beginning and
Written in bold at the end.


_


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

ur 7th point where u say the other person will get flamed by the other members - why would he if there is a point to make, which in this is not there, iits and iims are not places where u get admission because u belong to a certain caste/creed, they are institutions, have the brains ur welcome else bheed kum


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## DigitalDude (Apr 10, 2008)

Its not that you get admission by caste or creed alone.. if you are from a backward class and not under the creamy layer, it is assumed that you do not have the financial resources or educational exposure for your family members so that you are being given a slight preference over your general category counterpart...

you still need to score a significant percentile in CAT.. even If I was not under the creamy layer I cannot get a GDPI call with my 94.75%ile in CAT the situation is that bad...

btw
man every year lakhs and lakhs or people write CAT, compete for 1000 odd seats in the IIMs. that doesnt mean that those 1000 people are the best brains in the country... a lot of people are better than (in your language - 'have the brain') those who qualify for the GDPI.. its due to a very few tricky reasons that they dont get selected and the main reason being insufficient seats... so there is no major rigging going on in admissions because of the reservation. govt thinks they can also give some chance to backward class people to also get admission in the prestigious intitutions so that there will be uniform social growth in the country... this is the ideal case.. *but bcos of some people/politicians gaming the system the whole policy gets a very bad name* 

come to pagalguy.com forums you'll be surprised to see how many veterans still can't make it to the IIMs and other creamy instis 
and you will also be surprised to know how many well-off people enter premier instis (apart from IIMs maybe) with loads of cash under management quota/NRI and 1000 other quotas 

I dont care about IIM and IIT reservation drama.. I'm out of it  moving onto Welingkar GDPI... if I make it will be happy or else try agin next year 

anyway people who cant take it anymore are just leaving the country for more greener pastures...

_


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## infra_red_dude (Apr 10, 2008)

DigitalDude said:


> what do you mean.. this happens everywhere.. a lot of BPO cases these days.. go figure.. what this has got to do with the reservation policy ???


What does it hafta do with reservation? Good question.. When Infy sacks someone nobody makes a big issue that a so-called backward class guy was sacked or the so-called upper caste guy was sacked. Neither the self proclaimed representatives of the "upper" caste nor the "lower" caste stage demonstrations due to this. Why? Coz every individual there has come up on his own merit!

But when it happens in some PSU the "upper" caste wing complains that the higher ups took revenge or the "backward" caste wing claims they are treated badly. This is effect of reservation: Division of people!



DigitalDude said:


> this is your personal opinion. as I had said in point 3 you are unaware of the original aims of the reservation philosophy.. and its not my work to educate you...


Yes, precisely and thats why I'd put up this exact question in some page of this thread.



DigitalDude said:


> yes we are all human beings but that was realised very late... and still not realised in majority of India


If you look up to this post this is exactly what I'm saying.. This is where privileges are required to make people realize that everyone is EQUAL! Give them entry in temple. Provide scholarships to the needy, haf extra coaching classes to compensate for the lack of educational exposure, make them fit this way so that they can look into the eyes of others with confidence!



DigitalDude said:


> its not a blot on someone's face to be in the backward community... the govt is not insulting them.. but your are just making it appear so because you think backward class people are inferior. you call a cobbler a cobbler as simple as that if you feel being a cobbler is a shame then you are the one who is to be shameful. govt should actually provide opportunities to those backward people but they are playing a diff game thats a diff story altogether... you just need to clear up a lot of misconceptions in your mind.


You've said that you belong to the "creamy layer of OBCs" and that you are more intelligent than some of those "general category" guys. Then why are you called OBC? Don't you haf the same set of eyes, ears, nose, mouth, hands, legs, kidneys, brainz? How are you lesser than those less-intelligent fellows? Why are you "backward"??? You are not! And I'm suggesting that this tag of "upper caste" "backward caste" crap be removed from everyone's head!

When you are as human as others and actually more capable than many others why should Govt. call you "backward"??!! Isn't it creating a divide amongst us?



DigitalDude said:


> This is a logical argument. In an ideal situation the statement holds good and in private sector you dont have much problem... but when it comes to reality and in public sector there are a ton of things like caste politics in work..


You mean to say private sector hasn't seen reality? Or something like that?



DigitalDude said:


> But what to do...


Bridge the gap! Help abolish the caste system... Tell people around you that everyone is equal... make them realize this.. At least thats the most I can do and I try my best to do that...


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## DigitalDude (Apr 10, 2008)

I mean private sector is not that influenced like the public sector 

now you are more clear with the first point... and I agree with your intention made clear

I have been in NCC for almost 5yrs (2yrs in school+3yrs coll) and in the end became the Cadet Under Officer.. we have conducted a LOT of social initiatives and awareness campaigns... and never took up the reservation/castism issue cos everytime it comes up we dont get permission saying its sensitive our sirs just rejects it and throws in a rain water harvesting/AIDS awareness program 

everyone is in such a state of fear/misconception to talk about reservation/castism in public fearing it might trigger some chaos....

Our generation and our children's will see major change... it will take time


_


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## MetalheadGautham (Apr 10, 2008)

here are my personal 50 cents on the topic:

Our country India can be broadly divided into two nations

one with backward people who concider a shithead of a brahmin l33t just cause of his birth, and concider a hardcore geek of a SC useless just cause he is a SC.

the other has forward thinking smart and worldly aware people who look at a person by his self, not his birth. So a shithead is always a shithead in this country, weather a brahmin or a SC, and a genius is always a genius, weather he is a brahmin or a SC.

but India is supposed to be one, so the nations are treated as one.

In the country of fools, ppl need reservations, else the SC/ST ppl will suffer a lot. Its fair there, cause those SCs and STs who try to go to collages and work are naturally skilled enough, for they passed the harsh test of opposing discrimination and keeping their head up while still managing to work like any other average collegue of theirs.

In the country of forward people, everyone is equal at birth and becomes a fool or a genius only by his own choices. Here, people just need rules to ensure that only the best go to the top, the medium stay in the middle and the lessers go below.

But the population of the country of fools far outnumbers that of the country of the just. So laws are always made for them. Those in the country of the just, SCs and STs included, suffer because while the non SC/ST ppl have to loose their merit seats, the SC/ST ppl who are geniuses have to bear with comments that they came up only because of reservation. This may be true for some of them, but not for all. So harmony is affected there.

But what can the better country do ? They try migrating to other countries where they can live with dignity, but they still suffer. No peace anywhere. But laws are laws, right ? They are doomed for no fault of theirs. Blame it all on the useless country of fools that contributes hardly 40% of the GDP, but still get their needs addressed over the better country.


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

DigitalDude said:


> Observing the discussions in this thread I can say the following points:
> 
> 3) Most of the people don't even know the original aims of the reservation policy. though it is now implemented *not* for fulfilling those early aims.
> 4) *Most of you don't have any idea* of how bad caste situations are in the major part of India - the villages... even in many parts of the cities
> ...


3&4 -> all the people you mentioned here, iMav, infra_red_dude, me, praka123, pathik etc.... don't know the original aims and how bad the caste situations are and you are the only one who knows what you are talking about!  yes, the dictionary term is "puffed up with vanity"
6) not even worth commenting...
7) may be, you should go back and read the posts again!! I can't write better than "to play the devil's advocate" 


DigitalDude said:


> But I can talk a lot about this matter sensibly and even give individual replies to answer many misconceptions (like praka's and legolas' view about TN) but its of no use.


I am from TN. And I am sorry if I don't agree to your views which apparently is now-a-days called "misconceptions".



DigitalDude said:


> ROFL.. this is what I referred in my point no.4


  Ok! Point referred



DigitalDude said:


> p.s. now legolas and slugger don't show me that comic  k?


really enjoyed the pun. 

@iMav, good one!


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## DigitalDude (Apr 10, 2008)

woops I guess I opened a can of worms!!! 



@MetalHead dude!!! 
aptly put... though I have small differences not worth taking up 


_


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

^ ^ and I thought you wouldn't reply coz ranting here is of no sense!


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## praka123 (Apr 10, 2008)

Is it a sin to quote the caste name here?

well,FYI to all,TN got maximum no.of OBC/SC/ST?? that may be why they have the reservation level which is very high(69%??).
also,while I studied in coimbatore,the brahmin(iyer/iyengar etc) friends used to say-it is hopeless in TN for a FW caste fella.

There are all sort of reservation for the "majority";ie OBC's in south tn it is naadaar,thevar etc while in north it is gowdars,telegu's etc 

Isnt this the reverse happening in Taamil Naadui?the two communities,who are minorities(vellalars~mudhaliars,Iyers etc)  are in FW caste and after the dravida revolution done by kamaraj/periyar Ramaswamy Naiker etc,poor brahmins have to migrate to other states for study and sarkar job opportunities.
That sucks!


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## DigitalDude (Apr 10, 2008)

legolas said:


> ^ ^ and I thought you wouldn't reply coz ranting here is of no sense!


'felt' past tense FTW! 

@praka
you seem to know a lot more than me about this... so you might have a point there

my mom used to say DMK et al brought the major reservation in TN guess it makes sense now after your post.. but I cant pass any comments 

but there are a ton of engineering colleges here so a LOT of people get through management seats which is very very HIGH in number

these engg colleges rake in crores and govt also doesnt care much abt this mgmt quota fees that goes into several lakhs


_


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

DigitalDude said:


> but there are a ton of engineering colleges here so a LOT of people get through management seats which is very very HIGH in number


People who take management seats are not merit students. When you have the marks, why would you want to worry about that? 


DigitalDude said:


> these engg colleges rake in crores and govt also doesnt care much abt this mgmt quota fees that goes into several lakhs


true, but how is it related to this discussion? and please, don't stop commenting for my sake! I would be glad to hear what you have to say to what praka123 had mentioned.


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## iMav (Apr 10, 2008)

management quota - electronics seat = 8 lakhs how many seats in my colege fr electronics = 4


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## confused (Apr 10, 2008)

I hope/want India to pay dearly for this mistake. So that it never repeated.

News: "Congress, Left, BJP all welcome the move".........
Now i know who deserves my vote: ............. *NOBODY

*SC = Supremely Idiotic Court. Hope the judges rot in hell for this $H!T.And i guess those who have an opportunity to study/work abroad should grab it, atleast their children will not be subject such stupid reservations...


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## drgrudge (Apr 10, 2008)

iMav said:


> iits and iims are not places where u get admission because u belong to a certain caste/creed, they are institutions, have the brains ur welcome else bheed kum


*IITs and IIMs do have standards. * I agree that standard might be low for SC/ST students. 

In IITs - SC/ST students with low scores in JEE are made to sit for one year before they join the rest of the students. 
In IIMs - Check the websites of IIMs. IIM A/B/C do ask for a minimum cut off in sections and overall aggregate in CAT. 

So it's not like what you think. Check IIM A website, last year there were hardly any difference (but in numbers point of view) in the OBC and the General category. 

Do you know that I wrote CAT for 2 times (2005 and 2007) and still didn't get admit. I got calls from IIM K and IIM L (CAT 2005) but failed to convert (Wait List at IIM K). Know why? Because I didn't score sufficiently in CAT. Not because of reservations at IIMs.


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## legolas (Apr 10, 2008)

drgrudge said:


> In IITs - SC/ST students with low scores in JEE are made to sit for one year before they join the rest of the students.


grudgy, I don't quite understand what you are saying. 1) Are you saying it only happens for SC/ST students? 2) even if it isn't, when you say "sit", you have to pay the fee and do nothing?? 3) can you link me somewhere in this regard?


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## confused (Apr 10, 2008)

legolas said:


> grudgy, I don't quite understand what you are saying. 1) Are you saying it only happens for SC/ST students? 2) even if it isn't, when you say "sit", you have to pay the fee and do nothing?? 3) can you link me somewhere in this regard?


no man. it means those ppl have to take an additional preparatory course of one year...........before beginning engg semesters........


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## drgrudge (Apr 10, 2008)

legolas said:


> grudgy, I don't quite understand what you are saying. 1) Are you saying it only happens for SC/ST students? 2) even if it isn't, when you say "sit", you have to pay the fee and do nothing?? 3) can you link me somewhere in this regard?


It works like this. 

IITs reserve 22.5% for SC/ST (But they don't fill them all - hardly 16-17%). SC/ST students with a comparatively good score in JEE will qualify to sit with other students. Now they see if they've filled some portion of seats. If a lot of seats are vacant, then take other SC/ST student will lesser scores in JEE with a condition that they need to study a bridge course for a year before sit with other students. 

AFAIK that thing is free.


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## FilledVoid (Apr 10, 2008)

I hope everyone understands that I was just pointing out an example. I'm not saying that it was judged as what i said in my example.


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## slugger (Apr 11, 2008)

To tell you _all_ the truth, I am quite satisfied with the Supreme Court ruling 

*Three reasons: - 
1.)* Creamy layer excluded
*2.)* Quota to be reviewed every 5 years
*3.)* Politicians wards to be excluded

The reason I did not voice my whole hearted support in the evening was because I had just glanced through the NEWS and was unaware of the exact deatils. The 9 'o click NEWS cleared them all.

Well I have been a first hand witness to the benefits of reservation *for the economically poor class*.

The lady who cooks at our place is a perfect example for this. Her two sons actually *studied under the nearest lampost* on the road because they were too poor to afford electricity and the kerosene lamp too often ran without any kerosene in it.
(A picture perfect case for an NGO to highlight, but no NGO ever did anything for them)

They studied inspite of the the loud music that is played almost continously in the area and the frequent unrestrained quarrels that erupts there without the slightest of provocations (only if we had doctors in real life to first instigate and then control the fights).

Well under these circumstances it would have been too much to ask of them to top their class exams and *they never did*.They both passed their class 12 exams with around 50% marks.

However what they had going for them was their caste. Because they belonged to a caste that enjoys reservation benefits, the elder one managed to secure admissions in BSc. in a College has been featuring in the top 10 list of Science colleges in India today for the past 3-4 years now. The younger brother sought and got admission in a reputed commerce collge of the city (known for its Intl students). Hard to believe, but *both of them secured a distinction in their third year exams* (final year), the elder bro getting a first class from the second year itself.

The elder bro graduated in 2001 and has been working with a pharma comapny since. The younger one graduated in 2006 and has been working with HDFC (and no, he is *not* a loan recovery agent). They had moved from their tin hut to a low cost housing plan. They even got their mother to stop working everywhere else, save ours and rest at home.

The reason I though our cook's story was apt is because, had it not been for this reservation, her sons too would have turned into some anti-social element who would probably have met their end  with the bullet of a rival and landed in some gutter to rot.
It was only because they got an oppurtunity to study in two of the finest educational intitutes, they were exposed to a world so very different from the one the were living in. This gave them an oppurtunity to realise their full potential while interacting with the educated and cultured teachers and staff there.

They may never get to see the face of Los Alamos or Harvard Business school, but how many Open category Indians have anyway.

_Somebody had said that they only study for 300 marks while we study for 500._

*It is so very untrue.* Infact while we were able to afford the luxuary of joining tutions if we so desired and buy multiple books on the same subject, these 2 brothers actually studied from books issued by the school book bank which had pages missing from them.

Had there not been any reservations, I would easily have secured admission in a *faar* better Engg college than the one I already am in. But if that the seat has gone to a guy from an economically backward family, I would only curse myself for the hours I spent on activites not related to studies when I should have been doing just that.


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## DigitalDude (Apr 11, 2008)

^^^
after reading that I can only remember this *in.rediff.com/money/2006/aug/31spec.htm

though few in number.. inspiring nonethless

_


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## legolas (Apr 11, 2008)

^ ^ hats off to that lady and congrats to those two guys!!

you know what bothers me... these guys who exploit the system... there were guys in my college who came in pulsar and karisma (just to quote the cost) right from their 2nd semester, wearing 3000 or 5000 rs shoes/slippers and they paid 3000/- per semester with 13-16 brand new textbooks every semester apart from the 4 library books which he returns as new as it was at the end!!  because of their caste and I paid 7000/- per semester with books from library (4 max), I was the first seat in the college!!  My rank was 168. I don't mind if he is pompous... but what sort of encouragement is this... The least possible thing is to do something with regard to financial situations or to take it also into account including the social status! 



slugger said:


> *It is so very untrue.*


Unfortunately, its not. I have seen Father's advising their child to study only as much as possible as he requires only this much to get into a college... really!! believe me.
And, the guy who was standing next to me in the counseling session, was 192.8 and when I asked him how he was next to me... he gave a reluctant smile which I will never forget and told.. we are eligible!!  He got computer science in the guindy campus (Anna university, Chennai) , while I was not having seats left!


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## slugger (Apr 11, 2008)

thiat guy was an exceptionally talented guy whose talent wud have got wasted otherwise

our cook's son's though maybe not as gifted, they still have made a good thing out of their life and are only likely to do better


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## DigitalDude (Apr 11, 2008)

@legolas

I agree with you in this case.. even I have seen this in my coll..


OT: which coll in TN ?  pm me if you dont want to post  lot of similarities with my coll

strike that he answered 

_


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## slugger (Apr 11, 2008)

legolas said:


> you know what bothers me... these guys who exploit the system... there were guys in my college who came in pulsar and karisma (just to quote the cost) right from their 2nd semester, wearing 3000 or 5000 rs shoes/slippers .....



i know one of these guys 
studies in my college too

pop works in Oman. earns truckloads of cash. yet seeks admission through reservation and also gets his fee reimbursed from the govt through the coll itself


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## Faun (Apr 11, 2008)

legolas has got some good points. Financial status plays an important role.


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## legolas (Apr 11, 2008)

DigitalDude said:


> ^^^
> after reading that I can only remember this *in.rediff.com/money/2006/aug/31spec.htm
> though few in number.. inspiring nonetheless





> When you constantly worry about the next square meal, you do not dream of becoming a doctor or an engineer.


man!!!!  OMG.. I don't even know if I can live for 1 day with 1 Rs alone, let alone feed 5 kids!  

 The great Madras Institute of Technology!! (the worst quagmire/sh!t I have ever been in for 4 long years in Electronics Engineering)


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## slugger (Apr 11, 2008)

T159 said:


> legolas has got some good points. Financial status plays an important role.



by excluding the creamy layer your are taking care of that problem too


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## DigitalDude (Apr 11, 2008)

legolas said:


> man!!!!  OMG.. I don't even know if I can live for 1 day with 1 Rs alone, let alone feed 5 kids!
> 
> The great Madras Institute of Technology!! (the worst quagmire/sh!t I have ever been in for 4 long years in Electronics Engineering)


dude which batch you are... I have probably seen those guys you have mentioned  there were a few in ECE and mech too 

me from CEG   (same sh1t here also)

p.s. sorry for OT

_


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## infra_red_dude (Apr 11, 2008)

slugger said:


> Well I have been a first hand witness to the benefits of reservation *for the economically poor class*.


Here is the point I've been trying to make!



slugger said:


> However what they had going for them was their caste. Because they belonged to a caste that enjoys reservation benefits, the elder one managed to secure admissions in BSc. in a College has been featuring in the top 10 list of Science colleges in India today for the past 3-4 years now. The younger brother sought and got admission in a reputed commerce collge of the city (known for its Intl students). Hard to believe, but *both of them secured a distinction in their third year exams* (final year), the elder bro getting a first class from the second year itself.


Tell you what? There's a woman in my locality in Belgaum (actually not my present locality, I once stayed there but I still visit the place). She works as house maid in my friend's house. Her family consists of only her son. They are poor. She has a son who is above average (I must say quite intelligent considering the environment and resources with which he studied) but UNFORTUNATELY they neither belong to the so-called "upper class" nor the "reserved class". My friend's family supported his education during his school days upto Class XII. 

There are very few good science colleges in Belgaum and he was good in Electronics (thats what he had taken in 12th). He scored average marks in XII, I guess about 75% and hence couldn't get a seat in any electrical sciences related branch. They didn't haf the money to go in for a payment seat. All they could afford was the Govt. seat which was not available. He took up the Govt. seat in some other branch (I don't remember which exactly). He passed out but only with very average scores and everyone was amazed coz he was good in studies till XII. It was obvious since he was not into that branch and his mother didn't haf the money to send him to another city where he would've got a seat in the branch he was confident for. He's become a liability for his mother now. He has no work. 

Now isn't this family in the same situation as the one you explained? Why can't there be reservation for the economically poor class too? What sin haf these people committed? Isn't it like the Govt. policy ruined the life of a youngster? How can we justify reservation only on the basis of caste?



slugger said:


> _Somebody had said that they only study for 300 marks while we study for 500._
> 
> *It is so very untrue.*


Thats me and yes, this can't be generalised.


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## legolas (Apr 11, 2008)

DigitalDude said:


> dude which batch you are... I have probably seen those guys you have mentioned  there were a few in ECE and mech too
> me from CEG   (same sh1t here also)
> p.s. sorry for OT


cool! I am from 2001-2005. I dint want to take anything other than computer science in CEG. I dint get it.. My next choice was Electronics engineering from MIT... as the hype was humongous. It was worse than dog sh!t  

OFF TOPIC: You should know SKM (ECE dept) (S Krishna Moorthy) the professor of CUPS!  he is from my college  the HOD of my college made sure that he got the transfer to your campus!! ha ha ha but lets reserve that for another on-topic discussion!!


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## Faun (Apr 11, 2008)

infra_red_dude said:


> but UNFORTUNATELY they neither belong to the so-called "upper class" nor the "reserved class".


Does creamy layer see this too ?


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## slugger (Apr 11, 2008)

infra_red_dude said:


> Here is the point I've been trying to make!



the thing had been highlghted for the same reason 



infra_red_dude said:


> Tell you what? There's a woman in my locality in Belgaum (actually not my present locality, I once stayed there but I still visit the place). She works as house maid in my friend's house. Her family consists of only her son. They are poor. She has a son who is above average (I must say quite intelligent considering the environment and resources with which he studied)........



it is indeed unfortunate that the deserving guy did not recieve any financial aid

but 1 thing that i would also like to say is that outside the IITs and NITs there is no Uni whose Engg exams cannot be aced by just learning the local author txt books by rote and going through the previous 4-5 yrs Qs papers - *guarantted to get you a first class*

IMO aptitude has got absolutely nothing to with this style of exam preparation. 2 days after the paper you will be as knowledgeble as an arty or commy student about the engg paper. But on the day of the paper you will be prepared for a first class


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## DigitalDude (Apr 11, 2008)

legolas said:


> cool! I am from 2001-2005. I dint want to take anything other than computer science in CEG. I dint get it.. My next choice was Electronics engineering from MIT... as the hype was humongous. It was worse than dog sh!t
> 
> OFF TOPIC: You should know SKM (ECE dept) (S Krishna Moorthy) the professor of CUPS!  he is from my college  the HOD of my college made sure that he got the transfer to your campus!! ha ha ha but lets reserve that for another on-topic discussion!!


 
hahaha that idiot is very famous in the campus... ECE friends cry like anything... kappu-krishnamoorthy  sometimes they even make secret plans to pottuthallify him 

I had CSE, IT, Mech et al in CEG (MBC quota only  ) but I never gave a damn about this reservation stuff and all at that time... some xperts  in my relations advised not to go for CSE and IT as those were not stable (the .com bust days) and being a lot interested in cars took mech 

btw me 2002-2006 batch but got a sem brk due to a surgery completed last yr only...  this yr one more surgery 

p.s. sry guys going too much OT 

_


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## legolas (Apr 11, 2008)

@slugger very true reg. the examinations... its not the examination in those cases that is the problem... coz every1 knows its easy (at least the ones in city get EXTENSIVE coaching that they repeat the answers in sleep).. take TNPCEE.. its a test of absurdness, not intelligence. but its the competition that bothers every1. in my year.. for every 0.2 marks there was a rank lost almost.
@digitaldude, that is awesome!! good to know there is 1 guy who knows that b@stard. Yeah, the same "pottuthalifying" was also planned in my college.. it went really serious. There were 110/135 people failed in my batch during his time... Fortunately I wasn't one among them!! people were furious, his name came in the Hindu, Hod decided to transfer him, students decided to murder him! :d ha ha ha Hope everything is fine now with you!!


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## MetalheadGautham (Apr 11, 2008)

@grudge: I see that the students who come via reservation are scanned, and the lesser ones tutored. Fine.

*but isn't this still unfair ? how do you think a student will feel if his neighbour who is an SC gets into IIT, and despite getting low scores is tutored for free for an year, while he himself gets no such opportunity despite being equal in status (knowledge and marks wise) to the SC student because he is from a so called forward caste ?*


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## confused (Apr 11, 2008)

MetalheadGautham said:


> @grudge: I see that the students who come via reservation are scanned, and the lesser ones tutored. Fine.
> 
> *but isn't this still unfair ? how do you think a student will feel if his neighbour who is an SC gets into IIT, and despite getting low scores is tutored for free for an year, while he himself gets no such opportunity despite being equal in status (knowledge and marks wise) to the SC student because he is from a so called forward caste ?*


agree ........ IMO IITs, IIMs are so highly rated only because their students are the "creamiest", not in terms of social status but in terms of merit/marks .....

guess the judges were on crack while passing the judgement......


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## drgrudge (Apr 11, 2008)

MetalheadGautham said:


> @grudge: I see that the students who come via reservation are scanned, and the lesser ones tutored. Fine.
> 
> *but isn't this still unfair ? how do you think a student will feel if his neighbour who is an SC gets into IIT, and despite getting low scores is tutored for free for an year, while he himself gets no such opportunity despite being equal in status (knowledge and marks wise) to the SC student because he is from a so called forward caste ?*


I'm not arguing that Reservation is good (or bad). I replied back to iMav's misconception that IITs and IIMs have less standards for SC/ST. 

I don't know if this helps but that's the way it is. If you score less in JEE, you'll be doing UG at IIT in 5 years. 

Personally I believe that it does help some people. Reservation might be necessary but I'm not sure what's the best way to go about it.


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## ray|raven (Apr 11, 2008)

^True, Reservations are still necessary in this country of ours.

But , there is no right way to go about them,for whatever way they are implemented , let it be caste or say economic background, there will always be people who want to misuse them, and there will always be politicians that will help these people, for the sake of votes.

As I said in my previous post, as long as vote-bank politics are there in this country, nothing good will come out.


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## DigitalDude (Apr 11, 2008)

@Gautam
yes in a common perspective it is unfair for the general category student to see some OBC guy coming along with him with a less score and is the same for an OBC guy to see a SC/ST student coming along with a much lower score plus a free pass... but you have to put up with this for the next five years after which the reservation policy would be reviewed again.

This is all done so that even though the one who is getting admission using reservation they will get into a better social/financial status that their wards will be not needing the reservation... and for making sure (artificially instead of organically) that higher places of learning are represented well by all sections of the society instead just being filled with the Elite alone... but a small percentage of people happen to game the system but that is not possible now I guess.. the probability is greatly reduced.

but can anyone clear a *query* for me:

Let me assume I'm not coming under the creamy layer now. then I'm presented with a situation like this: I have got a GDPI call under the OBC quota but since I feel reservation is not quite right, I opt out of it and join some other college. But the seat I opted out of is going to be taken by a student with less score than me but in the same OBC quota and I will be effectively reducing one general category seat for a general category student who is a notch below me in the score ????

So am I further reducing the quality from the students perspective ? or am I adding more people from reserved class and making it better from the govt's perspective ??

so should I opt out and show my dissent but allow the above points ?? now what should I do and how should I feel 

hope I'm clear ??



@confused
dont just show blind anger dude... no the judges are not allowed to be on crack while on duty  


and I dont know why people always bring in IITs and IIMs into this. IMO OBC reservations are not going to affect the quality of these very elite instis even a bit. cos you need to put in a BIG ASS effort to even be considered by these instis for GDPI and there is helluva competition among the OBCs itself for IIMs and IIT and its just a fraction of a mark difference between the general category student and OBC students in all the cases though with some exceptions.

and you fail to see that there are a LOT of 'creamiest' people that you say who are not making into the IIMs and IITs so I dont think the ones in the IIMs and IITs are THE creamiest.. so is the scale of population in India and miniscule number of opportunities.

so dont go gaga over saying that the quality of these elite insti are gonna go down the drain  nope thats not the truth... they are highly immune to this. A few people might lose opportunities in these elite instis cos of reservations but thats a small number and a large number of people are already losing many opportunities just cos there aren't enough...


_


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## Sykora (Apr 11, 2008)

DigitalDude said:
			
		

> so dont go gaga over saying that the quality of these elite insti are gonna go down the drain  nope thats not the truth... they are highly immune to this. A few people might lose opportunities in these elite instis cos of reservations but thats a small number and a large number of people are already losing many opportunities just cos there aren't enough...



They _are_ going down the drain. The standards of IIT have been plummeting for quite some time now. A large number of faculty have left in search of greener pastures, because the students that they are teaching aren't as good as they once were. The faculty will have to be replaced, and the standards will fall further still, while those private colleges which do respect quality education will rise.

I just hope that when capable students start moving overseas en masse because they can't get seats here, the govt doesn't cry "brain drain".


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## DigitalDude (Apr 11, 2008)

Sykora said:


> They _are_ going down the drain. The standards of IIT have been plummeting for quite some time now.


 
yes.. I never refuted that. Thats a general and bigger problem not just affected by reservations. There are a million causes for it.

but not as bad as you portray.. just see the number of placements and salary levels. 



Sykora said:


> A large number of faculty have left in search of *greener pastures*, because the students that they are teaching aren't as good as they once were.


everyone is running for greener pastures more salaries more opportunties for them and they show the middle finger to other social issues in the country.

"because the students that they are teaching aren't as good as they once were."
haha people should be ashamed to say this even  Its the other way round.
actually its a very GENERALISED problem not specific to a class of people or a particular policy like reservation.

Better qualified people dont take up teaching jobs (cos obviously there are green pastures out there) and the quality of teachers are well going down the drain and as a result the quality of education on the whole has been down and schools/colleges turned into production house of employees for the industry instead of imparting real education and channeling the best brains into research/teaching.



Sykora said:


> The faculty will have to be replaced, and the standards will fall further still, while those private colleges which do respect quality education will rise.
> 
> I just hope that when capable students start moving overseas en masse because they can't get seats here, the govt doesn't cry "brain drain".


 
standards are falling everywhere but the competition is ever increasing and also disproportionately to the available resources. btw not many private colleges can better the govt elite instis for many reasons like mgmt seats, high fees, mgmt attitude etc. along with good faculty/students preferring the latter.

and why are you saying 'when' ?? its already happening  brain drain or not we benefit either way. the people who are going out insearch of greener pastures cant be blamed they want something better and are not in a position to make it happen here nor wait.. so let them go.. but many of them are bringing back many opportunities/wealth to the country after a period of time. IMO brain drain is an old problem actually its not much a problem now 



_


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## confused (Apr 11, 2008)

DigitalDude said:


> @confused
> dont just show blind anger dude...


how else i am supposed to react to something which so god damn crazy, it can happen only in india.......
its easy for you to digest since you've already done ur engg ........ 




DigitalDude said:


> IMO OBC reservations are not going to affect the quality of these very elite instis even a bit.


 absolutely disagree. just wait and see.




DigitalDude said:


> there is helluva competition among the OBCs itself for IIMs and IIT and its just a fraction of a mark difference between the general category student and OBC students


if thats really the case then why have reservations at all for IITs, IIMs??? [i mean if there is no diff in standard b/n general and reserved category students, no need for reservations right???]

its not like the backward people absolutely have to have an IIT degree to progress. 

IITs/IIMs are for ppl who can work hard ......... so does it make a difference whether one is forward or backward .......... [coaching classes are all crap anyway ........ any student whether rich or poor has to literally tear his @SS apart to stand a chance]

IMO IITs/IIMs should have no reservations....... everyone one on same platter......... work hard to get in ........

unfortunately $H!T is happening..........


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## drgrudge (Apr 11, 2008)

It's quite interesting to see that none of the people here they want to work for NTPC, BSNL, NLC, BEML or ONGC. They feel their prospects in IITs, IIMs, NITs, AIIMS or IISc getting even tougher.  

Private educational institutes also 'reserve' seats for people who can pay Rs 35 Lacs for a MBBS seat or Rs 7 Lacs for a BE seat. Why is there no hue and cry over it? 

What about IAS, IPS and civil servant jobs? Even there we'll have over 50% of the seats reserved. 

So you want to study in IITs, IIMs or NITs and get a _phoren_ job. 




DigitalDude said:


> Let me assume I'm not coming under the creamy layer now. then I'm presented with a situation like this: I have got a GDPI call under the OBC quota but since I feel reservation is not quite right, I opt out of it and join some other college. But the seat I opted out of is going to be taken by a student with less score than me but in the same OBC quota and I will be effectively reducing one general category seat for a general category student who is a notch below me in the score ????
> 
> So am I further reducing the quality from the students perspective ? or am I adding more people from reserved class and making it better from the govt's perspective ??


Most Institutes don't fill SC/ST/OBC seats for general students. It's always not filled. If you're opting out, you're not doing any good for the general students. The seats is filled by another OBC candidate or not filled. 

The Center will increase the seats in the institutes in a phased manner. By 2010, they'll increase the intake by 54% so that the general category students are not affected.


----------



## Sykora (Apr 11, 2008)

DigitalDude said:
			
		

> Better qualified people dont take up teaching jobs (cos obviously there are green pastures out there)



Obviously if money is the only criterion, nobody would be teaching.

Better qualified people take up teaching jobs because they have a passion for the subject, a passion that's killed if they're made to teach students who have be tutored for a year before they're fit to join the main stream. These teachers find places where their talent is respected more, and they're replaced by people who teach a syllabus. 



			
				DigitalDude said:
			
		

> actually its a very GENERALISED problem not specific to a class of people or a particular policy like reservation.



Reservation is a major cause of it. Of course not the only cause, but a major one nonetheless.



			
				DigitalDude said:
			
		

> the people who are going out insearch of greener pastures cant be blamed they want something better and are not inposition to make it happen here nor wait.. so let them go.. but many of them are bringing back in many opportunities/wealth to the country after a period of time.



Are you saying that it's a good thing for people _not_ to study here, because it brings wealth and opportunity later on?

The day the govt functions for _all_ people, and not just the people who are likely to vote it back into power, will be the day the country flourishes.

Then again, that would possibly signify the end of the world.



			
				confused said:
			
		

> IMO IITs/IIMs should have no reservations....... everyone one on same platter......... work hard to get in ........



Absolutely. Otherwise, the term "merit based education" will have no meaning.



			
				DigitalDude said:
			
		

> there is helluva competition among the OBCs itself for IIMs and IIT and its just a fraction of a mark difference between the general category student and OBC students



Yeah right. Please explain mass discrepancies like a 160,000 AIR holder beating a 12,000 AIR holder if the former is in SC, based on that "fraction of a mark difference" theory. 

Besides, if there's only a fraction of a mark difference, why does anyone need reservation? Obviously they're good enough to get in on their own merit, right?


----------



## drgrudge (Apr 11, 2008)

confused said:


> its easy for you to digest since you've already done ur engg ........


3 new IITs in AP, Rajastan and Bihar is coming up this year and the first year classes will be held at IIT Madras, Delhi and Kanpur respectively. Also the seats in the other 7 IITs will be hiked by atleast 10% (exc. the seats in the 3 new IITs). 

You've enough seats in IITs. With the increased reservation also, the competition is not going to reduce. 

Instead of cribbing here, why don't you prepare for JEE and AIEEE?


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## DigitalDude (Apr 11, 2008)

confused said:


> how else i am supposed to react to something which so god damn crazy, it can happen only in india.......
> its easy for you to digest since you've already done ur engg ........


yes because you dont have a country that is as diverse (linguistically, culturally, geographically, socially and economically) as India  

yes I have finished engg (phew!!) also have become a bit mature in those years..  



confused said:


> absolutely disagree. just wait and see.


 
ok. will wait and see.. I'm just 22 



confused said:


> if thats really the case then why have reservations at all for IITs, IIMs??? [i mean if there is no diff in standard b/n general and reserved category students, no need for reservations right???]


to also bring in people from a variety of social statuses to those elite instis which traditionally was filled with a single group of people...

but govt is very well playing politics but SC has given a good judgement in forcing the govt to exclude creamy layer from reservations.



confused said:


> its not like the backward people absolutely have to have an IIT degree to progress.


 
vice-versa... see drgrudge's post 



confused said:


> IITs/IIMs are for ppl who can work hard ......... so does it make a difference whether one is forward or backward .......... [coaching classes are all crap anyway ........ any student whether rich or poor has to literally tear his @SS apart to stand a chance]
> 
> IMO IITs/IIMs should have no reservations....... everyone one on same platter......... work hard to get in ........


 
dont worry this ideal situation will be in a few years to come... 

govt is just erring again to correct a previous error.. these things will be nullified in a few years 
(remember I said "artificially instead of organically; artificially - reservations, organically - provide free quality education, hostels, food, for ALL deserving students. but artificially is faster than organically but has a few trade-offs)



confused said:


> unfortunately $H!T is happening..........


 
a LOT of other sh1t is also happening in the country.. let us fight against all of them instead of just filling our pockets...


_


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## iMav (Apr 11, 2008)

slugger uv missed the point:

10 students for iits/iims, before this ruling:

3 sc/st/obc 7 merit holders (in the true sense, playing on a level field)

after the ruling:

5 sc/st/obc, 5 merit holders

same amount of teachers, same number of seats, same number of institutes

now creamy layer or no creamy, there 2 merit holders who also have burnt the midnight oil, who have also gone from pillar to post to make the cut are being left out why, coz they dont have the new certificate of merit

hypothetically speaking even if the institutes are able to increase the number of seats by 25% to nullify the reservation effect, the std of the insti wil go down, the number of teachers remains the same, teacher crunch is already there, more students less teachers, quality of education goes down

now the second aspect of coping up, a student who has worked hard studied under the lamp post and got admission (no harm done, good for him, im not against reservation) he got admission based on reservation considering that he was less privileged than the ohers but now he is sitting with them, now there is gonna be no more incentives for him, his chances of of coping are lesser than the 2 guys who were left out to accommodate the 2 obc guys

@grudgy: yesterday's TOI front page: japan backs out of bihar iit citing law and order problem


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## m-jeri (Apr 11, 2008)

grudge and digital..

both u r blowing this out of proportions...even with the increase in seats or inst...the reservations will also increase..

and yeas we are getting in for "phoren" jobs..its not like we are geting a free ride...ppl are working their asses off...you should atleast know some ppl who dreams to get their or already in their...

if all want ur phren jobs why dnt they just work hard not use their oh-so-my-caste-certificate... 

so dont say crap more than the idiot ppl who done this..

and yes..saying abt other pblms...its "OFFTOPIC" hehehhe.. ..

something like education systems deserve a podium position in my heart....
others can take a back seat..not like they gonna change..so wat.....


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## confused (Apr 11, 2008)

drgrudge said:


> Instead of cribbing here, why don't you prepare for JEE and AIEEE?


thanks. point taken .......... logging off....


----------



## DigitalDude (Apr 11, 2008)

Sykora said:


> Obviously if money is the only criterion, nobody would be teaching.
> 
> Better qualified people take up teaching jobs because they have a passion for the subject, a passion that's killed if they're made to teach students who have be tutored for a year before they're fit to join the main stream. These teachers find places where their talent is respected more, and they're replaced by people who teach a syllabus.


 
this 'passion' kool-aid and all is not correct anymore. VERY FEW people take teaching cos its their passion. 

_"These teachers find places where their talent is respected more"_

what do you mean by this statement.. where can the teachers go.. you mean those 3 teachers who leave IIMs to go teach in Wharton ?? haha

the main problem is that there are not much teachers... leave alone quality ones...




Sykora said:


> Reservation is a major cause of it. Of course not the only cause, but a major one nonetheless.


 
I strongly disagree, there was SC/ST reservation right from the beginning.. (I again repeat) the situation is not as bad as you portray.. just see the number of placements and salary levels. 




Sykora said:


> Are you saying that it's a good thing for people _not_ to study here, because it brings wealth and opportunity later on?


 
haha way to misquote... I said thats not a big problem as we anyway get wealth and opportunities back from them.

see China also has the largest number of people settling in the US and studying there.. so Brain Drain is not as big a problem nowadays as it was portrayed years ago.



Sykora said:


> The day the govt functions for _all_ people, and not just the people who are likely to vote it back into power, will be the day the country flourishes.
> 
> Then again, that would possibly signify the end of the world.


 
The day the govt functions for _all_ people, and not just the people who are likely to infuse funds into political parties, lobby for their industry, bribe to get stuff done, pay hefty amount to get mgmt seats will be the day the country flourishes.

hmm sarcasm eh? no thats not the end of the world.




Sykora said:


> Absolutely. Otherwise, the term "merit based education" will have no meaning.


 
as drgrudge said will you guys also show same solidarity and commitment in opposing the MGMT/NRI/Minister/MLA/Councillor/VC/Dean/Principal/INDUSTRY quotas ??

the reality of 'merit-based' education is very shady in most of the cases.




Sykora said:


> Yeah right. Please explain mass discrepancies like a 160,000 AIR holder beating a 12,000 AIR holder if the former is in *SC*, based on that "fraction of a mark difference" theory.



VVVV



DigitalDude said:


> and there is helluva competition among the OBCs itself for IIMs and IIT and its just a fraction of a mark difference between the general category student and *OBC* students in all the cases though with some exceptions.


 



Sykora said:


> Besides, if there's only a fraction of a mark difference, why does anyone need reservation? Obviously they're good enough to get in on their own merit, right?


 
god question... see my answer for the same question raised by confused..




p.s. I dont want any fights with members here. I dont want to be rude intentionally. I'm just trying to put some counter points to get things in perspective  Please dont hate me 


_


----------



## ray|raven (Apr 11, 2008)

Offtopic:

Ah, classic fight-club here,
Folks taking turns, quoting other's posts and writing against it. 
Slowly, people forget the issue and the thread dies.

Classic.


----------



## DigitalDude (Apr 11, 2008)

^^^^
Touché 


but we do have some good discussions here 

and people are polite only (by fight club standards) 


_


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## drgrudge (Apr 11, 2008)

@iMav - 
Do you think IITs and IIMs fill the 22.5% seats that are reserved? FYI, they don't.


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## m-jeri (Apr 11, 2008)

exactly...they are lapsed.....


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## iMav (Apr 11, 2008)

drgrudge said:


> @iMav -
> Do you think IITs and IIMs fill the 22.5% seats that are reserved? FYI, they don't.


if they dont whats the point  secondly if its a known fact that they dont then why add another 27% and why not make sure that those 22% are made to 30% and made better use of


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## The_Devil_Himself (Apr 11, 2008)

there is one thing no one cares to put forward,why do we need any fuking reservation at PG and higher levels?Would you like to be operated for any major surgery by a guy who got into just cuz of reservation system,leaving behind a guy 10 times better than him?Gimme a break,there is an end to everything but this reservation sh!t goes as far as Phd\higher specialization levels.All hypocrites.Bottomline is reservation helps no one.Do away with it already.

Vote for me in teh next elections.(I still need to figure out which elections I need to compete in to become PM,Not like Manmohan singh but a real one.).


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## m-jeri (Apr 11, 2008)

hehehhe..yeas those idiots who support this dnt know tht when the bolkes who says 'AYE' to reservation will go to the most expensive hospital abroad or bring them here at idiot indian tax payers expense...


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## infra_red_dude (Apr 11, 2008)

The_Devil_Himself said:


> there is one thing no one cares to put forward,why do we need any fuking reservation at PG and higher levels?Would you like to be operated for any major surgery by a guy who got into just cuz of reservation system,leaving behind a guy 10 times better than him?Gimme a break,there is an end to everything but this reservation sh!t goes as far as Phd\higher specialization levels.All hypocrites.Bottomline is reservation helps no one.Do away with it already.
> 
> Vote for me in teh next elections.(I still need to figure out which elections I need to compete in to become PM,Not like Manmohan singh but a real one.).


You prolly hafn't read the complete this. SC has said that there would be no reservations at PG level, only upto graduation.


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## narangz (Apr 12, 2008)

Sad day in the history of India.
We don't want our society to be divided by castes.


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## drgrudge (Apr 12, 2008)

infra_red_dude said:


> You prolly hafn't read the complete this. SC has said that there would be no reservations at PG level, only upto graduation.


Arjun Singh said it would be applicable to IIMs, IITs, AIIMS and IISc too. IIMs have deferred the announcement of their admission list this year. 



iMav said:


> if they dont whats the point  secondly if its a known fact that they dont then why add another 27% and why not make sure that those 22% are made to 30% and made better use of


Ask them. They cite 'quality' of the students is not upto the par. They also won't fill the lapsed seat in general/other categories.


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## slugger (Apr 12, 2008)

implementing the 27 % quota in IISc will be a contempt of court, *unless* the parl decides to include it in the 9th schedule

as for IITs and AIIMS, they conduct UG courses also, which is where the quota will be implenented

IIMs do not award *degrees*, the award PG *diploma* to the students. so mplementation of quota in IIM is being debated upon

There shall be *no reduction* in the *number* of seats available for the *General category students* in these institutes

The Veerappa Moili Committe that has been appointed had categoriacally stated this in no uncertain terms. 

It was sum guy called Kancha Elijah who on TV said that the open category students can be thrown out to accomodate the 27.5% students if the infrastructure cannot be increased in time. Fortunately he is no position of power to make this happen

@imav
so the 2 students who burnt their midnight oil should have nothing to worry about


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## iMav (Apr 12, 2008)

its a confusion and arjun singh has said that iims and iits will have to reserve seats, and the clause is in the judgement by one of the judges on the bench


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## mediator (Apr 12, 2008)

Peanut brains. How come a person will still fancy the tag of "educationally backwards" even after graduation?? Poor IIMs! 

Incapable government and its fellow polish1tians. Instead of improving their primary education, they thought the best wud be to hold reservations. I guess the tag of reservation will become a subject of verbal abuse in coming times..."Oh look, here comes the incapable reservation privileged boy!!". On one hand they are looting the poor farmers, charging more from us for the crop they grow and paying them less, constructing malls, buildings etc on agricultural and fertile lands, and on the other they r showcasing their pathetic dance of reservation!! On one hand they r making poor poorer and on the other dividing the society on a base which the coming generation was trying to forget. On one hand its democracy and equality to all and on the other hand its reservation. 

I guess we really need a dictator to clean up the mess and slaughter the goons who r charging up their pockets and devouring this fine country to satisfy their infinite hunger for power.


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## infra_red_dude (Apr 12, 2008)

mediator said:


> I guess the tag of reservation will become a subject of verbal abuse in coming times..."Oh look, here comes the incapable reservation privileged boy!!".


Actually I'd been trying to point out the same in my posts albeit indirectly. I've seen this myself.. not once.. not twice.. not thrice.. but many times. I feel bad about it. And there was nothing I could for that guy  The Govt. is only creating a divide amongst us and making them vulnerable to public humiliation/abuse.


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## DigitalDude (Apr 12, 2008)

^^^
according to the above logic we should also stop sending girls to colleges cos they are being teased 

so whose fault is it ? the one who abuses ? or the one who is being abused ? or the govt ?

the divide is not being created by the govt. its already there for ages. I would also like that to disappear but that is a very slow process. the present effects of reservation are not so excellent but its long term effects will be desirable. and that is precisely why SC has fixed some time period to review the policy periodically.


@mediator
your phrase "Oh look, here comes the incapable reservation privileged boy!!" seems like thats what *you* want to call.. not that others are calling 

if one is a gentleman atleast a good student, probably they would lend out a helping hand to the fellow classmate who is coming from a not-so-privileged background* through a channel that has been provided to him by the govt , instead of indulging in name-calling.

(*though a few people game the system. but its in all the fields.)


I'm amazed by your concern for poor farmers. very kind of you. where were you when all this was happening from a very long time ago. jumping out suddenly just when the reservation policy is upheld.. a nice drama is being made out of the country's woes, using them as a weapon to argue.

I'm not surprised by your arguments though.. as I dunno whether to be angry at you or pity at your innocence thinking that a dictator would be a honest noble person who is going to save the country single handedly and set right all the wrongs   the number of such dictators are less than the number of fingers in your hand 


_


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## mediator (Apr 13, 2008)

DD said:
			
		

> according to the above logic we should also stop sending girls to colleges cos they are being teased
> 
> so whose fault is it ? the one who abuses ? or the one who is being abused ? or the govt ?
> 
> the divide is not being created by the govt. its already there for ages. I would also like that to disappear but that is a very slow process. the present effects of reservation are not so excellent but its long term effects will be desirable. and that is precisely why SC has fixed some time period to review the policy periodically.


And how exactly "sending of the girls" is relevant here?? How is 'Teasing of girls' comparable here?  

Yes, the divide has been there for ages and IMO was diminishing. I never knew if the guy sitting besides me during the college was any SC/ST or OBC until this reservation crap surfaced. Yes I knew he was poor and sitting and eating with poor isn't a problem for many. To me the world seems to be comprising of rich and poor and I always felt that poor can be helped if they r given financial aid. And then it started dividing into something very absurd!! 

IMO, its the fault of the govt. for making us witness this mindless drama. For anti-reservation souls, they want fair treatment and equality. How will u react if a guy standing next to u gets through with very low marks on the basis of this crap?? For us competition means everything. We have seen and grown with it. 
Now for pro-reservation souls. Many wanted reservation to be implemented. Please tell how a guy who doesn't even know how to walk can be made to run in the olympics?? Who are financially backwards? Who do u define SC/ST/OBC? Even the SC/ST who r now rich can go via reservation with little effort during the preparation. Many r ruling over us in in the form of power hungry beasts not even knowing their national anthem well! If u know ur ways well, then how can u be "educationally backwards"?? If u don't have the money to fill the forms, then don't u think govt shud subsidise the forms or take proper measures so that 'financially backwards" people can also sit in the entrance exams??

Private companies expect u to be highly knowledgable, so that they can acquaint u with their work easily and get u started ASAP. Do u expect them to teach u proper english first, then all the theories and practicals which u shud have done in primary education and then grant u some job if somehow u seem to be fit?? Do u even know how much loss the company will go through with all of this?

So I guess that wud be the tragic fate of the privileged souls where the term "privileged" will become an abuse and that person all his life might become a subject of mockery. The tag, "inferior", IMO might get attached to them. 

A : "What rank did u get?"
B : " 9999"
A : "But the selection stopped at 2000?"
B : "I came thru reservation"
A : "Hmmm, I gotta leave now!"


The is reality, sire! Anyone wud go ballistic, if he comes to know that his rank, competition meant nuthing.



			
				DD said:
			
		

> your phrase "Oh look, here comes the incapable reservation privileged boy!!" seems like thats what you want to call.. not that others are calling


U can think wateva u want. I have seen the reality and so have many others who have worked hard and studied like 20 out of 24 hrs just to find out that another person got in with privileges, approach or bribe. Its time for u to wake up to it. 

@Grudge told in his posts, that it all started becoz the priests ill treated the poor. I wud make those priests run naked under the scorching sun if I had the power to do so. In this age many don't even have the time to know about cast system. Many are becoming atheists just because they think religions/personal gods bring war and unnecessary hatred. But with this vote bank politics, its all being revived. Fresh hatred and division is being poured!!

To be honest I started reading about cast systems only after this reservation topic rose! I also never knew how a 'baniya' is different from a 'brahmin', or which cast does a "Yadav" belongs to and which one does a "Kapoor"!! And if u look deeper into the original meaning of the cast system, then u will know that what today is being followed isn't a cast system at all!!! 
With its orginal meaning no one is a "brahmin" or a "shudra" by birth and its not heriditary! Please google for more details.



			
				DD said:
			
		

> if one is a gentleman atleast a good student, probably they would lend out a helping hand to the fellow classmate who is coming from a not-so-privileged background* through a channel that has been provided to him by the govt , instead of indulging in name-calling.


Sure everyone wud love to, if he had come via equal means and the same competition level. Why can't the government lend financial aid to his/her primary schooling? I hope u know how much importance is given to the primary skooling! It nourishes and refines the personality of a person. Don't u think so?

I wouldn't make one tiny bit of difference between the people who came via approaches, money power or reservation!! All this shud be banned.




			
				DD said:
			
		

> I'm amazed by your concern for poor farmers. very kind of you. where were you when all this was happening from a very long time ago. jumping out suddenly just when the reservation policy is upheld.. a nice drama is being made out of the country's woes, using them as a weapon to argue.


I only feel sorry by the kind of low level statements and thoughts u bring in. 

If u think "I jumped out suddenly.....using them as a weapon to argue", then believe me, u need to take a atleast a week vacation and spend 10 hrs a day with cold coffee in ur hand and mind at absolute peace and silence, just to read ALL MY POSTS in FIGHT CLUB in related threads! 



			
				DD said:
			
		

> I'm not surprised by your arguments though.. as I dunno whether to be angry at you or pity at your innocence thinking that a dictator would be a honest noble person who is going to save the country single handedly and set right all the wrongs  the number of such dictators are less than the number of fingers in your hand


Are u telling our democracy is any different? The country is being ruled by a 'selected' prime minister instead of usual 'elected' prime minster pupeteered by a foreign lady, who needs hindi speeches written in English, and a dynasty supported, revered and worshipped by a bunch of goons! A dictator can both be good or bad. Ofcors our views can be different. But if u think a dictator will necessarily be evil then I too pity at ur innocence and request u to come out of ur dreamland.


----------



## legolas (Apr 13, 2008)

DigitalDude said:


> ^^^
> the divide is not being created by the govt. its already there for ages.
> _


Yes, very true, they are just exploiting it and those who benefit from it enjoy while the others try harder...  mostly get disappointed.
And yes, this change will not happen over night.
And, the concept of dictatorship -> I am no way accepting to that!! 

PS: this forum should incorporate a text to speech converter to read longer posts


----------



## mediator (Apr 13, 2008)

^ Actually I was recalling my earlier debate when I mentioned "dictator". So its definitely not like Musharaf or Stalin. 
So Please read that one so as to save me from repeating!


----------



## infra_red_dude (Apr 13, 2008)

DigitalDude said:


> ^^^
> according to the above logic we should also stop sending girls to colleges cos they are being teased


You totally missed the point! mediator has explained it in the form of a small conversation about ranks and believe me I've seen it in front of my own eyes and I could do nothing but request them to leave that guy off and not trouble him.

And what mediator said happens exactly! When we are sitting in class I do not know the person sitting next to XYZ is an SC/ST/OBC. Bring in reservation and they instantly get identified and are mocked at. They are called "still backward". Why? Only coz Govt. sticks a label on them "Thru Reservation". Isn't that widening the gap?


----------



## Faun (Apr 13, 2008)

isn't reservation an added nail to the coffin.


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## DigitalDude (Apr 13, 2008)

Please before posting the next post can you guys take a few minutes* and go through these wikipedia entries  
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India (updated for reflecting the recent judgement)

*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action (flagged for neutrality - use common sense )

*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_class (optional)

so that you would get a better idea of what reservation is and what it tries to achieve.


*hehe jk it takes more than an hour
_________________________________________________________




mediator said:


> And how exactly "sending of the girls" is relevant here?? How is 'Teasing of girls' comparable here?


 
the motive behind that act I mean.. if you feel someone is inferior you start to bully. in that case its more a fault of the person who is bullying/abusing.

racial discrimination is much worse than ragging. just because people are from a backward class and got through reservation it doesnt mean they have to be insulted.

do the same guys have the guts to insult/bully someone who came thru management/CM/MP/MLA/VC/Dean/Industry quota ?? also the highly misused NRI quota ?




mediator said:


> Yes, the divide has been there for ages and IMO was diminishing. I never knew if the guy sitting besides me during the college was any SC/ST or OBC until this reservation crap surfaced. Yes I knew he was poor and sitting and eating with poor isn't a problem for many. To me the world seems to be comprising of rich and poor and I always felt that poor can be helped if they r given financial aid. And then it started dividing into something very absurd!!


 
what is the need for one to know whether anyone is from OBC SC or ST quota ? it is not that OBC SC ST is attached to your register numbers. and even if you came to know what is the problem exactly ? just think that the guy though less privileged and not as talented as others are was given a chance considering his background and he is now able to study with you all and improve his situation. how difficult is that ? let us not show attitude.

why people think that he stole someone else's seat ? its not the case. The Indian government wants more representation of people from a varied social background to be studying in the elite institutions instead of them being just filled up to the brim with people from very privileged societies.



mediator said:


> IMO, its the fault of the govt. for making us witness this mindless drama. For anti-reservation souls, they want fair treatment and equality. How will u react if a guy standing next to u gets through with very low marks on the basis of this crap?? For us competition means everything. We have seen and grown with it.


 
The govt is always at fault for a variety of reasons, but I have to accept that the reservation policy is being fully exploited by each and every politicial party to gain full mileage for their vested interests. though some good is being surfaced in this whole drama.

and the drama was properly cleaned up by the Supreme Court verdict. (referring to creamy layer, periodic re-evaluation etc)

Fair treatment and equality is a noble thing. who doesnot want it. the anti-reservation souls should realise that reservation is precisely being carried out to ensure fair treatment and equality to the less privileged and oppressed sections of the society.. unfortunately they constitute the major percentage of India's population. Only when these social and economic conditions of these people are raised to a more acceptable level, the so-called Fair Treatment, equality, unbiased policy making, can be ensured.




mediator said:


> Now for pro-reservation souls. Many wanted reservation to be implemented. Please tell how a guy who doesn't even know how to walk can be made to run in the olympics?? Who are financially backwards? Who do u define SC/ST/OBC? Even the SC/ST who r now rich can go via reservation with little effort during the preparation. Many r ruling over us in in the form of power hungry beasts not even knowing their national anthem well! If u know ur ways well, then how can u be "educationally backwards"?? If u don't have the money to fill the forms, then don't u think govt shud subsidise the forms or take proper measures so that 'financially backwards" people can also sit in the entrance exams??


 
"doesn't even know how to walk can be made to run in the olympics??"
can we call it an exaggeration?? running in the olympics is the pinnacle for an athlete. if I have to potray in real life, what you are saying in the above sentence, it will be like this "randomly selecting a KG school student and making him the CEO of a mega corp"  let us refrain from making unnecessary exaggerations and come to reality.

SC/STs situation cannot be explained in very short sentences. I clearly dunno how to speak about this situation prudently.

and for the rest of the statements in the above quote this is my reaction 



mediator said:


> Private companies expect u to be highly knowledgable, so that they can acquaint u with their work easily and get u started ASAP. Do u expect them to teach u proper english first, then all the theories and practicals which u shud have done in primary education and then grant u some job if somehow u seem to be fit?? Do u even know how much loss the company will go through with all of this?


 
as I said in my above statement let us not exaggerate plz. private companies teach you nought. its the employee who learns. I know many reserved class students who are working in a variety of companies performing very well. these companies dont give any special preference to them while recruiting. they also go through the common pool. so ineffect reservation has won here. those underprivileged students got in to my campus through reservation, and got out through a common system the private companies follow 

I have even seen these students get placed in Dream companies, who are ruthless in the selection processes.

and No I dont know how much loss the company goes through.. but I know how those companies wring out the last drop of work from you before paying.
maybe one day if I start a company I will know better



mediator said:


> So I guess that wud be the tragic fate of the privileged souls where the term "privileged" will become an abuse and that person all his life might become a subject of mockery. The tag, "inferior", IMO might get attached to them.
> 
> A : "What rank did u get?"
> B : " 9999"
> ...


 
hmm this 'subject of mocery', 'target for abuse', 'inferiority tag', etc are just scare terms and dont carry much weightage. Imagine in a class, will half of them gonna be playing a game of mocking the other half ??

your dialogue above maybe suitable for a comic strip 

A : "What rank did u get?"
B : " 9999"
A : "But the selection stopped at 2000?"
B : "I came thru reservation"
A : "Hmmm, I gotta leave now!"
B : "bb" *who cares*

and then it is understandable that people would go ballistic once they know they have lost the chance. but they have to realise this is the law and theres a big picture behind it. every year lakhs of people go ballistic after CAT results (I'm one of them  ) so what can be done 




mediator said:


> U can think wateva u want. I have seen the reality and so have many others who have worked hard and studied like 20 out of 24 hrs just to find out that another person got in with privileges, approach or bribe. Its time for u to wake up to it.


 
I'm not thinking whatever I want. studying in a govt engg coll in chennai I have had pretty good exposure to the reservation issues  and spent a lot of time with all kinds of friends but never in my coll life we had this kind of selective treatment of friends cos of reservation. I have also held a lot of responsibilities.

and you never disappoint me in the exaggeration dept. getting in with approach or bribe is another serious issue. let us not digress. but the guy who got in thru reservation probably spent more time than you and worked harder but ended up with less cos he is not as smart as you are and/or do not have the kind of exposure that a lot of us enjoy.



mediator said:


> Sure everyone wud love to, if he had come via equal means and the same competition level. Why can't the government lend financial aid to his/her primary schooling? I hope u know how much importance is given to the primary skooling! It nourishes and refines the personality of a person. Don't u think so?
> 
> I wouldn't make one tiny bit of difference between the people who came via approaches, money power or reservation!! All this shud be banned.


 
'equal means' depends on a various factors for such a diverse country like India. as I have said just a few statements above, educational background, the kind of exposure, family background, networking among the relatives, coupled with financial and social status makes a lot of difference when you are comparing with people who have a lot less/Nil of any of the above.

I know how important is primary schooling No doubt. but the cost of spending to aid the poor in primary schools is a very huge one and the sheer number of beneficiaries add to the complexity.

yes giving importance to college level education than to primary level is unbalanced policy.. but as time progresses and India develops it is bound to happen just like this 60000cr loan waiver (motives behind that may be different but it is commendable)

there IS a world of difference between people who get through via money power/influence etc and people who come via reservation. you have to understand that. the former is FAR serious issue but as I said earlier that totally different let us open a new FC thread for it 



mediator said:


> I only feel sorry by the kind of low level statements and thoughts u bring in.
> 
> If u think "I jumped out suddenly.....using them as a weapon to argue", then believe me, u need to take a atleast a week vacation and spend 10 hrs a day with cold coffee in ur hand and mind at absolute peace and silence, just to read ALL MY POSTS in FIGHT CLUB in related threads!


 
I sincerely apologise for this and retract my statements. As I'm not the one to frequent the FC, I was unaware 



mediator said:


> Are u telling our democracy is any different? The country is being ruled by a 'selected' prime minister instead of usual 'elected' prime minster pupeteered by a foreign lady, who needs hindi speeches written in English, and a dynasty supported, revered and worshipped by a bunch of goons! A dictator can both be good or bad. Ofcors our views can be different. But if u think a dictator will necessarily be evil then I too pity at ur innocence and request u to come out of ur dreamland.


 
In democracy we have a constitution by which govt functions. In dictatorship whatever the dictator says is the constitution . Given the present world scenario if you think that there are bound to be benevolent dictators ready for a country like India, then Its not me who is in the dreamland. 



infra_red_dude said:


> You totally missed the point! mediator has explained it in the form of a small conversation about ranks and believe me I've seen it in front of my own eyes and I could do nothing but request them to leave that guy off and not trouble him.
> 
> And what mediator said happens exactly! When we are sitting in class I do not know the person sitting next to XYZ is an SC/ST/OBC. Bring in reservation and they instantly get identified and are mocked at. They are called "still backward". Why? Only coz Govt. sticks a label on them "Thru Reservation". Isn't that widening the gap?


 
Nope I did not. I clearly understand what you guys mean. But I'm just asking why do we show such an indifferent attitude to students who qualify through reservation. refer to my discussions above 

"Identifying and mocking"  I will suggest an amendment to the anti-ragging act to include provisions for punishing students in college who are bullying fellow students by mocking them for qualifying through reservation  


PHEW! could have written a blog post or two 

@legolas bro
you don't want any text to speech converter.. really.. I have tried it and it sucks  


p.s. a few places I might be appearing to be rude but am not. I intended to use smileys but I cant use much

_


----------



## eggman (Apr 13, 2008)

calling this quota implementation unjustified would be the understatement of independent INDIA. they said ours was a fractured democracy, now its actually disabled. its one of those cases where the system you live in goes one step ahead of you and screws you like hell! no constitution in any country of the world can justify replacing economic subsidy with anti-merit reservations. i have never felt so violated.


----------



## ..:: Free Radical ::.. (Apr 13, 2008)

I was working with Y4E. I went to the Mandal II hunger strikes too.
I put my hopes in SC. We could only do so much.

We have an impotent leadership being held to ransom by an incompetent majority. We won't make it far.

Nah, I'll make my own road with my blood and sweat and toil.

Goodbye India. This is where we part ways.


----------



## eggman (Apr 13, 2008)

I hope Mandal III never gets implimented!!


----------



## ThinkFree (Apr 13, 2008)

But the good news is that if they are unable to find the required number of OBC candidates, the vacant seats would go to general category and would not be going to SC/ST category


----------



## ssdivisiongermany1933 (Apr 13, 2008)

Supreme court like Government of India is lame , both are piece of crap ,earlier supreme court was last hope , but its useless


----------



## infra_red_dude (Apr 13, 2008)

slugger said:


> but 1 thing that i would also like to say is that outside the IITs and NITs there is no Uni whose Engg exams cannot be aced by just learning the local author txt books by rote and going through the previous 4-5 yrs Qs papers - *guarantted to get you a first class*
> 
> IMO aptitude has got absolutely nothing to with this style of exam preparation. 2 days after the paper you will be as knowledgeble as an arty or commy student about the engg paper. But on the day of the paper you will be prepared for a first class


When it can be said about general merit students why not for "reserved" category students? If anyone can solve 4-5 years Q papers and gets a first class then why reservation??!!

Or is it coz its very tuff to get into IITs and NITs people demand reservation? There are some fundamental points I fail to understand.



DigitalDude said:


> the motive behind that act I mean.. if you feel someone is inferior you start to bully. in that case its more a fault of the person who is bullying/abusing.


It is easy to talk, my dear friend. But when you've toiled hard for something and it just misses you then you feel the pinch. You me everyone. This is human nature. At that time, no matter how considerate or just you are things like these happen. I am witness to some of the worst abuses for the reserved category students, only coz they were labelled so. 



DigitalDude said:


> racial discrimination is much worse than ragging. just because people are from a backward class and got through reservation it doesnt mean they have to be insulted.


Completely agree.



DigitalDude said:


> do the same guys have the guts to insult/bully someone who came thru management/CM/MP/MLA/VC/Dean/Industry quota ?? also the highly misused NRI quota ?


Forget all these quotas, lets just consider Sports quota for a min. Does anyone insult/bully them? Even if the candidate is from the so-called "backward class" nobody insults them coz they got thru Sports or NCC quota. Why? First, they are not getting free lunch. They are proving something, it may not be a very big thing.. but at least something. Secondly, compare the Management/CM/MP/MLA/VC/Dean/Industry/Sports/NCC/Disabled quota seats with the normal seats. Whats the ratio? mebbe 1:50?



DigitalDude said:


> just think that the guy though less privileged and not as talented as others are was given a chance considering his background and he is now able to study with you all and improve his situation.


Exactly, why no extend this to economically poor class? That is all I ask. Why are these "less-privileged" always "less-privileged"?



DigitalDude said:


> The Indian government wants more representation of people from a varied social background to be studying in the elite institutions *instead of them being just filled up to the brim with people from very privileged societies*.


That is a wrong notion. The elite institutions (IITs for e.g) are not filled with "people from very privileged societies". They are filled with people who are "deserving".



DigitalDude said:


> The govt is always at fault for a variety of reasons, but I have to accept that the reservation policy is being fully exploited by each and every politicial party to gain full mileage for their vested interests.[/quota]
> Completely agree.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## iMav (Apr 13, 2008)

infra_red_dude said:


> DigitalDude said:
> 
> 
> > The govt is always at fault for a variety of reasons, but I have to accept that the reservation policy is being fully exploited by each and every politicial party to gain full mileage for their vested interests.[/*quota*]
> ...


infra take a break uv got a quote(a) over dose


----------



## narangz (Apr 13, 2008)

Aren't they spreading hatred in minds of General Category people towards those Reserved Category people? I can see that coming but hope it doesn't go too far.


----------



## mediator (Apr 13, 2008)

DD said:
			
		

> the motive behind that act I mean.. if you feel someone is inferior you start to bully. in that case its more a fault of the person who is bullying/abusing.


Inferiority or lust or the case of opposite sex? Here we r talking of the reality based on partiality. Its quite common for a gang of girls to pass comments on a sweet boy passing by, or to look at him like that or to talk dirty among themselves and vice versa. Even girls can show boys not to mess around with them. So please stick to what we r discussing. U only need to ponder over it.



			
				DD said:
			
		

> racial discrimination is much worse than ragging. just because people are from a backward class and got through reservation it doesnt mean they have to be insulted.


Agreed! But, people want equality. U can ponder over the flaws to reservation itself. Rich SC/ST getting via reervation, people making fake IDs to sho that they r from OBC? How much strict is our govt. in checking these? Even terrorists today can get fake passports for a handsome of amount and then voting cards and even getting into military. I hope u read news!

Its the rage and feeling of insult they (G.C) feel when they see their hardwork was for nuthing. If u r well acknowledged to the reality then u wud have realised that many OBCs consider it below their dignity to get admission via reservation. They really don't want to carry the tag of reservation. So its a reality and not something that masses can ignore!



			
				DD said:
			
		

> do the same guys have the guts to insult/bully someone who came thru management/CM/MP/MLA/VC/Dean/Industry quota ?? also the highly misused NRI quota ?


Like I said be realistic. Half of those guys who come via bribe and other means also get passed via such means. They got failed? So what, with a little 'means' they can get themselves passed! And u must know how much the commerical colleges charge. Money is all that matters to them. BTW, most of the people from the quota u mentioned, don't get bullied but bully others. And its not necessarily a situation where privileged guys get bullied, its also the divide we r talking of.




			
				DD said:
			
		

> what is the need for one to know whether anyone is from OBC SC or ST quota ? it is not that OBC SC ST is attached to your register numbers. and even if you came to know what is the problem exactly ? just think that the guy though less privileged and not as talented as others are was given a chance considering his background and he is now able to study with you all and improve his situation. how difficult is that ? let us not show attitude.
> 
> why people think that he stole someone else's seat ? its not the case. The Indian government wants more representation of people from a varied social background to be studying in the elite institutions instead of them being just filled up to the brim with people from very privileged societies.


U seem to be soo innocent to be asking even about the simplest prevailing reality. Its not that anyone wud ask u ur DOB, Fathers name, blood group or whether u r HIV +ve or not. But people do like to ask ur marks, ranks and where do they stand. Its the marksheet also they like to see. Do I need to tell more? I hope not!

I am not even stating that the guy from poor background is less talented. He may be more talented and much intelligent than others. He may show extraordinary performance in music classes. But where will he get instruments to practice on his own at his home? Where will he get the money from to sustain? And if he can do that? How is he financially backwards?

I just gave one example. But the overall scenario is collective of the person's overall subjects and interests where he may need instruments, books, PC, magazines etc! 

And if INDIAN govt wants more representation of people from different backgrounds, then how is reservation is the answer. Aligarh muslims university hold 50% muslim reservation, now collective reservation AFAIk goes like 49% beyond which OBCs/SCs/STs can come even through general quota. "Oh we have reserved seats for u, now u can participate. But the path is all yours".

How are they improving the students? They have lowered the ranks/marks for them and made them used with it. U think thats competition? In an indirect term I guess they r telling them the harsh reality of who they r and making others realise of such a reality. 

Now let me give u an instance. I came from a computer science section where many were financially backwards. Only a few were found to be from resveration criteria after this crap came out. A small division happened. But ignore that. Coming straight to the point, many of the financially backwards people were intelligent. Some learnt the theoretical concepts of programming faster than I did. But theory isn't all. One need to be practical too. So even after the graduation, they were very weak practically and hardly made programs themselves. Many of them didn't even know how to install windows. While the ones who  had PCs in their homes did it all. 
Now do u think privates will teach them all this all over again? I hope u know how much important it is to be practically sound when u enter the corporate as a programmer, admin etc. Don't u think govt. shud aid em financially?



			
				DD said:
			
		

> the anti-reservation souls should realise that reservation is precisely being carried out to ensure fair treatment and equality to the less privileged and oppressed sections of the society.. unfortunately they constitute the major percentage of India's population. Only when these social and economic conditions of these people are raised to a more acceptable level, the so-called Fair Treatment, equality, unbiased policy making, can be ensured.


Socio-economic conditions don't get automatically and magically raised to a more acceptable level. Primary education which plays a major role in all isn't to be neglected. BTW how much good has the previous resvervation done? Were they upto their mark? Do u realize how many seats go vacant because of this? Then why 'increase' resvervations? This is neither equality nor fair treatment but simply a mindless game of vote bank politics where the history has been ignored and merit has been undermined dramatically.


Let me quote something from the first 'wiki' link u quoted.


			
				wiki said:
			
		

> The framers of the Constitution believed that, *due to the caste system, SCs and the STs were historically oppressed and denied respect and equal opportunity in Indian society* and were thus under-represented in nation-building activities. The Constitution laid down 15% and 7.5% of vacancies to government aided educational institutes and for jobs in the government/public sector, as reserved quota for the SC and ST candidates respectively for a period of five years, *after which the situation was to be reviewed. This period was routinely extended by the following governments and the Indian Parliament, and no revisions were undertaken for the fear of losing votes*


Understand the excerpt first. Instead of curing the menace of ill treatment, they countered it with another menace (reservation) and increased it in fear of another menace (vote bank) without even reviewing it? Will the final menace of reservation help curing the menace of illtreatment. It will just divide the society further like discussed and bound to happen creating a much worse menace. Is that what u call equality and fair treatment?? Seems like hypocrisy to me!

Ok, again lets see.....rich can get via money power, there is muslim revervation in some, sc/st reservation, OBC reservation + they can get general category seats tooo. Then their is a flawed system where one can fake his ID and enter through the privileged quota. On the top of that many of SC/STs, muslims are rich who still can get thru that quota i.e 49% reservation "might be" tapped by fair n unfair means. WHo is worst victim? Middle class people?

It seems in future they r the ones who might need reservations of any sort!! Do u support that? A complete division?? What a fine division of society!!




			
				DD said:
			
		

> "doesn't even know how to walk can be made to run in the olympics??"
> can we call it an exaggeration?? running in the olympics is the pinnacle for an athlete. if I have to potray in real life, what you are saying in the above sentence, it will be like this "randomly selecting a KG school student and making him the CEO of a mega corp" let us refrain from making unnecessary exaggerations and come to reality.
> 
> SC/STs situation cannot be explained in very short sentences. I clearly dunno how to speak about this situation prudently.
> ...


Do I smell sarcasm here? Till now u haven't acknowledged much that u know of reality very much neither u have shown that u understand of who do we really call financially backwards or who r the SCs/STs/OBCs! U can't classify and u certainly don't know the reality very much. So again I ask who do u indetify as "financially backwards" the ones with lower castes as said or the ones who really r poor?????




			
				DD said:
			
		

> as I said in my above statement let us not exaggerate plz. private companies teach you nought. its the employee who learns. I know many reserved class students who are working in a variety of companies performing very well. these companies dont give any special preference to them while recruiting. they also go through the common pool. so ineffect reservation has won here. those underprivileged students got in to my campus through reservation, and got out through a common system the private companies follow
> 
> I have even seen these students get placed in Dream companies, who are ruthless in the selection processes.
> 
> ...


AGain I ask, how many of those reserved class students were actually "financially backwards"?? Even I can get a fake ID to get me thru reservation, and perform well afterwards. Its not exaggeration but a clear case where "u can't classify and distinguish". If an employee can learn nicely what the company wants, then surely he must have done his primary skooling well and if he can sustain it, then he must have his concepts cleared as well and if cud compete, then what stopped him from competing similary without reservation? And finally if he was that much able, then its quite obvious for the rest of the general category students to get aggravated as their hardwork was undermined. AGAIN, my question if its "employee that learns" then why not be equal in that? If he can't have enough money, then why not subsidise his education instead of lowering his merit threshold?




			
				DD said:
			
		

> hmm this 'subject of mocery', 'target for abuse', 'inferiority tag', etc are just scare terms and dont carry much weightage. Imagine in a class, will half of them gonna be playing a game of mocking the other half ??
> 
> your dialogue above maybe suitable for a comic strip
> 
> ...


Don't mind u r talking like LALOO now, "who cares". . "YEa I got thru reservation, unlucky u, with less preparation to go thru....hahaha".
Neways if u went ballistic after CAT results, did u opt for reservation? I guess its onlu making ur life easier then, and difficult for general category students. Equality to all and fair treatment? Palleease!




			
				DD said:
			
		

> and you never disappoint me in the exaggeration dept. getting in with approach or bribe is another serious issue. let us not digress. but the guy who got in thru reservation probably spent more time than you and worked harder but ended up with less cos he is not as smart as you are and/or do not have the kind of exposure that a lot of us enjoy.


U r just repeating the situation where u can't classify and distinguish clearly! Why is he less smart? Smartness isn't financially related, sire! Google if u don't understand definitions.

And if he doesn't have exposure then shudn't govt help him financially? Its like u don't understand reality well or u can't digest it, so u terming it as exaggeration!! So if the guy worked harder (means he had the books and necessary material), ended up less (becoz he got less rank?), why does he needsto go thru reservation? Just becoz he comes from a cast that has been privileged so? Again a clear case where merit is undermined!

The case we r discussing of when a person can't work hard. Why? May be becoz his family is finanically weak, may be becoz he has to do labour so as to earn money parallel with his study, may be becoz becoz he can't study becoz his labour earns a major percentage of his family income!! Do u even understand what we r discussing? AGAIn I stress, "WHO Do u call finanically backwards??". Are u financially backwards? I guess not, coz I see u chatting with me over internet on a PC, forumming regularly concluding that u have all the time in the world!




			
				DD said:
			
		

> I know how important is primary schooling No doubt. *but the cost of spending to aid the poor in primary schools is a very huge one and the sheer number of beneficiaries add to the complexity.*
> 
> yes giving importance to college level education than to primary level is unbalanced policy.. but as time progresses and India develops it is bound to happen just like this 60000cr loan waiver (motives behind that may be different but it is commendable)


Do u even know how many years it takes to complete primary education. Forget the complexity! If u think one can bypass primary skooling, thinking about the 'expenses' and then getting thru reservation solves all the problem, then I guess u r joking badly......a bad joke that none can digest!!

U defintely are not the finance minister to be thinking about the loan waiver! Lets see again, why it all started?
* Ill treatment of SC/ST.....a percentage of resvervation implemented! Many seats went vacant and hence started undermining of merit!
* What is govt doing? Killing of the farmers? Constructing buildings on fertile lands and paying farmers less?? Thats making em poorer!
* Unbalanced development. i.e metropolitans developed at a faster pace then the rest of the country? Problem? Influx of population from rural to urban lands for better employment! Result? Higher congestion, competition level. The ones who cudn't get thru becoz they migrated from rural areas feel left out. Many opt for inappropriate means and many adopt the path of crime. And now picture whats happening in INDIA.

And in all of this where is the root cause of the problem i.e illtreatment of SCs/STs is being resolved?? Its being ignored completely and merit on the other hand is being properly and systematically undermined! 

I hope u know INDIA is on the world map of financially strong countries where it aids the ones when tsunamis sweep them out, where it spends billions of dollars on defenses and even donates for "good cause" for weaker countries. It "donates"! So u defintely don't need to be perceptive of that matter so as to completely ignore the root cause.



			
				DD said:
			
		

> there IS a world of difference between people who get through via money power/influence etc and people who come via reservation. you have to understand that. the former is FAR serious issue but as I said earlier that totally different let us open a new FC thread for it


IN both the cases merit is undermined and why is only the former a "FAR" serious issue, just cause u may have the privleged status fancied for u??



			
				DD said:
			
		

> I sincerely apologise for this and retract my statements. As I'm not the one to frequent the FC, I was unaware


Even so, your statements wud have sounded utterly low for even a newcomer to this forum!!



			
				DD said:
			
		

> In democracy we have a constitution by which govt functions. In dictatorship whatever the dictator says is the constitution . Given the present world scenario if you think that there are bound to be benevolent dictators ready for a country like India, then Its not me who is in the dreamland.


Like I said, u can read and then reply! Its not that big!



			
				narangz said:
			
		

> Aren't they spreading hatred in minds of General Category people towards those Reserved Category people? I can see that coming but hope it doesn't go too far.


U have to visualize the big picture. Its bound to go far. If general category students wont get admission next, then u know where they will be looking next! And then government cries "BRAIN DRAIN"!


----------



## narangz (Apr 13, 2008)

mediator said:
			
		

> U have to visualize the big picture. Its bound to go far. If general category students wont get admission next, then u know where they will be looking next! And then government cries "BRAIN DRAIN"!



Brain Drain is already going on a big scale. You gotta ask the people of our state about that.


----------



## infra_red_dude (Apr 13, 2008)

iMav said:


> infra take a break uv got a quote(a) over dose


Lolz...


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## kumarmohit (Apr 13, 2008)

^^ Erm wat state?


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## narangz (Apr 13, 2008)

^^I guess that was for me. By State I mean my State i.e. Punjab. If you ask the youngsters here more than 95% want to settle abroad. You know what, some villages don't have youngsters at all! You'll find elderly people only. 

That's a sorry state. But if you ask me even I prefer settling abroad. Fed up of reservations, corruption and all that crap. I love my state, my country, our culture, our beliefs, our rituals but...

What is government doing? By government I mean both Centre & State govts. We don't have much jobs here in our state specially in IT sector. The govt jobs have most of the jobs reserved & some don't even have a single job for general category. What can we do? Then they say youth should stay in their motherland & serve this country.


----------



## iMav (Apr 13, 2008)

in gurgaon/noida if u have a job be careful u just might get shot, its like new york, the next corner might be ur last step


----------



## narangz (Apr 13, 2008)

^^Errr... Why?


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## iMav (Apr 13, 2008)

dont u see the news


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## narangz (Apr 13, 2008)

^^I don't usually watch TV. Read them in newspaper only.


----------



## mediator (Apr 13, 2008)

narangz said:
			
		

> ^^I guess that was for me. By State I mean my State i.e. Punjab. If you ask the youngsters here more than 95% want to settle abroad. You know what, some villages don't have youngsters at all! You'll find elderly people only.
> 
> That's a sorry state. But if you ask me even I prefer settling abroad. Fed up of reservations, corruption and all that crap. I love my state, my country, our culture, our beliefs, our rituals but...
> 
> What is government doing? By government I mean both Centre & State govts. We don't have much jobs here in our state specially in IT sector. The govt jobs have most of the jobs reserved & some don't even have a single job for general category. What can we do? Then they say youth should stay in their motherland & serve this country.


I understand!



			
				imav said:
			
		

> in gurgaon/noida if u have a job be careful u just might get shot, its like new york, the next corner might be ur last step


Thats around sector 30, 40 AFAIK. Neways UP is UP but Delhi too is giving a good competition!


----------



## gxsaurav (Apr 13, 2008)

Why do u guys even care about all this nonsense??? Why r u all still running after conventional things in education whose institutes are ruined by reservations etc....

When I completed my 12th I decided that I won't go for conventional education like Engg or medical, I decided to do what I liked to do in school, drawing. I never cared about reservation or anything, I did B.Com just for the sake of graduation, & even skipped the plans for MBA now cos I don't see myself fitting there. Reservation never stopped me from doing anything & today I m what I am on my own, a designer, something I learned on my own.....

look for your own qualities, enhance them, don't run after education unless u r a genius in studies. Like if u r physics genius then why go for engg & why not nuclear physics...? 

You wanna succeed in this world in 2008, then do what u can do & not what others want u to do....at least for me Street smartness has always been better then Book smartness


----------



## Faun (Apr 14, 2008)

^^lol
atleast u hav got the motto of life


----------



## pannaguma (Apr 14, 2008)

gx_saurav said:


> Why do u guys even care about all this nonsense??? Why r u all still running after conventional things in education whose institutes are ruined by reservations etc....
> .....
> You wanna succeed in this world in 2008, then do what u can do & not what others want u to do....at least for me Street smartness has always been better then Book smartness


you answered ur own question ....... not everyone is confident about their "street smartness".  so they instead choose to go down a well trodden path .........




gx_saurav said:


> When I completed my 12th I decided that I won't go for conventional education like Engg or medical, I decided to do what I liked to do in school, drawing. I never cared about reservation or anything, I did B.Com just for the sake of graduation, & even skipped the plans for MBA now cos I don't see myself fitting there...... today I m what I am on my own, a designer, something I learned on my own.....


yeah i guess it takes a lot of guts to do things "hatke".




gx_saurav said:


> Reservation never stopped me from doing anything


well the field ur in is not exactly like engg/medical in terms of "competition". its not like IITs/IIMs where the seats are sooo limited its a miracle to go thru .......... 

and then imagine the no of seats being again cut down....... obviously ppl react angrily to r*f*e*u*s*c*e*k*r*i*v*n*a*g*tions


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## drgrudge (Apr 14, 2008)

gx_saurav said:


> Why do u guys even care about all this nonsense??? Why r u all still running after conventional things in education whose institutes are ruined by reservations etc....
> 
> When I completed my 12th I decided that I won't go for conventional education like Engg or medical, I decided to do what I liked to do in school, drawing. I never cared about reservation or anything, I did B.Com just for the sake of graduation, & even skipped the plans for MBA now cos I don't see myself fitting there. Reservation never stopped me from doing anything & today I m what I am on my own, a designer, something I learned on my own.....
> 
> ...


Your best post by far in this forum.  Good.


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## gxsaurav (Apr 14, 2008)

pannaguma said:


> you answered ur own question ....... not everyone is confident about their "street smartness". so they instead choose to go down a well trodden path .........


 
Confidence is required, the path I have selected to follow in life is also not easy, designers are not that popular without a BFA or NIFT degree (I did give NIFT exam in 2002), but here is the thing, there are some "paths" where your own quality matters, not your degree. My dad still thinks that the job I m doing right now is some part time job & I will do some desk job soon in 3 to 4 months 

When I go to somewhere for an interview for 3d archi designer, they don't ask my Resume or Degree first, they give me a workstation runnings 3ds Max & tell me to make something there in front of them, your capability is tested right there....this is how the education system should be like...based on the capability of student.



> yeah i guess it takes a lot of guts to do things "hatke".


 
Yeah, that's true. My whole kahndan hates me for doing what I want....jara hatke .

Abe I even flirt jara hat ke andaaj se  ... just yesterday I went to see Krazzy 4 with my Ex-gf while her current BF was fuming at her in the movie on phone "Why the hell you went for movie with Saurav"  



> well the field ur in is not exactly like engg/medical in terms of "competition". its not like IITs/IIMs where the seats are sooo limited its a miracle to go thru


 
Even my field has competition, but here is the thing....with my street smartness I know how to tackle the competition. It's not like there aren't better designers then me, there are some who are super duper genius in VRay while I prefer Mental Ray for archi, but my MRay Quality matches there VRay quality so I m preferred as good as them.

Competition is everywhere but if you want to succeed then do something on your own, enhance your quality....don't just whine in front of a computer screen that Middle Class is meddled by reservation. You wanna protest, there are ways to protest today which were not there in 2002, do so....make plans, unite, stick posters in colleges, if a rule can be passes in society then it can also be taken back....don't just give up.

A friend of mine recently told me to go for MBA etc etc, so I asked him "You did MBA, what did it teach you". He said "It taught me only how to talk & present my ideas or commute to other properly", I said "Isn't that what I am already doing better then you right now. You are Deputy Manager, IT devision, India for that bank...I am a Rake, I talk. "

Just know what your are capable of, be confident in what ever you do & nothing can stop you....

Accept for your small doggie barking at the door to feed her first


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## eggman (Apr 14, 2008)

^^Good post 
But its a bit offtopic, however


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## mediator (Apr 14, 2008)

gx_saurav said:


> Confidence is required, the path I have selected to follow in life is also not easy, designers are not that popular without a BFA or NIFT degree (I did give NIFT exam in 2002), but here is the thing, there are some "paths" where your own quality matters, not your degree. My dad still thinks that the job I m doing right now is some part time job & I will do some desk job soon in 3 to 4 months
> 
> When I go to somewhere for an interview for 3d archi designer, they don't ask my Resume or Degree first, they give me a workstation runnings 3ds Max & tell me to make something there in front of them, your capability is tested right there....this is how the education system should be like...based on the capability of student.
> 
> ...


Amazing that our philosophies match very much here. But I have realized that a degree does improve ur face value. You may write ur experience, area of expertise and how good u r in ur resume, but a corresponding degree can quickly catch the attention of the companies.


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## infra_red_dude (Apr 14, 2008)

gx_saurav said:


> Why do u guys even care about all this nonsense??? Why r u all still running after conventional things in education whose institutes are ruined by reservations etc....
> 
> When I completed my 12th I decided that I won't go for conventional education like Engg or medical, I decided to do what I liked to do in school, drawing. I never cared about reservation or anything, I did B.Com just for the sake of graduation, & even skipped the plans for MBA now cos I don't see myself fitting there. Reservation never stopped me from doing anything & today I m what I am on my own, a designer, something I learned on my own.....
> 
> ...



Err.. I'm a bit confused. Do you say that coz this reservation we change our field? Or do you mean to say that every individual who aspires to be an Engineer and study at inst. like IITs has a "hidden" designer in him? 

What if the guy is confident of making a career in Engg, yet loses out the seat by 1 mark due to this? Not everyone has a gfx designer/CA/Journalist hidden in him.

Believe me, if you don't haf, what you claim, printed on a piece of paper called "certificate" you are nowhere. Not everyone has time to make each candidate sit on a computer and evaluate his/her skills! This is India.. with a population of a billion people. Time is money!


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## pannaguma (Apr 14, 2008)

infra_red_dude said:


> Err.. I'm a bit confused. Do you say that coz this reservation we change our field? Or do you mean to say that every individual who aspires to be an Engineer and study at inst. like IITs has a "hidden" designer in him?
> 
> What if the guy is confident of making a career in Engg, yet loses out the seat by 1 mark due to this? Not everyone has a gfx designer/CA/Journalist hidden in him.
> 
> Believe me, if you don't haf, what you claim, printed on a piece of paper called "certificate" you are nowhere. Not everyone has time to make each candidate sit on a computer and evaluate his/her skills! This is India.. with a population of a billion people. Time is money!


+1billion....


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## iMav (Apr 14, 2008)

its a society where the ability of a person is judged by a piece of paper which has some numbers printed on it


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## pannaguma (Apr 14, 2008)

iMav said:


> its a society where the ability of a person is judged by a piece of paper which has some numbers printed on it


but its the best system there is ........ i mean u got to prove ur self only once, right?


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## iMav (Apr 14, 2008)

balls!!!!

mother to child - 8th std is very important so study hard, after 8th

my dear child next year is 10th and ur performance depends on 9th so study harder, after 9th - my dear son 10th is the most important in your life ur career depends on 10th, diploma/12th - u will be going in the outside world u have to prove urself study hard, after diploma/12th engg - this is the most important step (if ur parents feel like ur not going study furhter) then the job thing else - u can do anything u want after engg blah blah

then comes masters/mba .... wtf


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## ray|raven (Apr 14, 2008)

^Please, the only reason they tell you that is so you end up well.
Every parent wants their sons/daughters to be in a better place than them.

What else do you want a mother to tell a kid studying 8th std?
Go work and bring me 20k a month?

And whats your problem with studies?

Btw, your and mine are totally offtopic posts here, so lets not continue this.


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## iMav (Apr 14, 2008)




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## pannaguma (Apr 14, 2008)

iMav said:


> balls!!!!
> 
> mother to child - 8th std is very important so study hard, after 8th
> 
> ...


nagging parents will push their children even to study hard in the 2 nd grade.........
thats not the point.....
what i meant is u have to study just one-two years to join a good engg/medical college. pg or mba is needed only to improve ur net worth.......


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## iMav (Apr 14, 2008)

dude ur wrong there too .... we got to give our own engg exams then there are entrace exams and what not ... so its not only engg anymore

forget that, yesterday TOI - kota a place somewhere has classes for iit entrance exam, now these classes (2 were mentioned in the paper) have their own entrance exam to select which students they will coach ... i mean wtf is this .... societal pressures are getting beyond a limit and then add to this the reservation issue the middle class student is having the worst time of life


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## ray|raven (Apr 14, 2008)

^Hyderabad has one such coaching centre.
Ramaiah Coaching Center. He has a entrance which selects people to be coached.
The Ironic part is, there are institutes that coach folks for that Entrance.

But, the Ramaiah Coaching Center is very successful, cant say if its coz of the policies though.

Personally though, I dont think a good college makes a lot of difference if you are interested in learning.
I did my engg in a college that started the year before I joined it.

And I ended up in the same room as the guy from BITS the day i reported to Office


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## pannaguma (Apr 14, 2008)

iMav said:


> blah blah ....... having the worst time of life


chill man, it will pass.....

@ray - who is the girl in ur avatar?


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## ray|raven (Apr 14, 2008)

_Offtopic:_

Its Maggie Q.

Guess I should put that in my siggy, quite a few guys asked me


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## Faun (Apr 14, 2008)

@gx
please don't torture now and than, here and their  Except this everything looks fine.

live and let the lingo live


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## pannaguma (Apr 14, 2008)

rayraven said:


> _Offtopic:_
> 
> Its Maggie Q.
> 
> Guess I should put that in my siggy, quite a few guys asked me


ok. i googled then ogled.......
she looks very sexy in this pic.


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## iMav (Apr 14, 2008)

pannaguma said:


> she looks very sexy in this pic.


 reservations are at the so wrong place


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## ray|raven (Apr 14, 2008)

pannaguma said:


> ok. i googled then ogled.......
> she looks very sexy in this pic.



There are far better ones out there.Trust me


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## pannaguma (Apr 14, 2008)

As sometime earlier pointed out, this thread is indeed dying..........


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## iMav (Apr 14, 2008)

pannaguma said:


> As sometime earlier pointed out, this thread is indeed dying..........


and that is why the politicians get away because they know all opposition from the general public and especially the middle class is gonna last for a few weeks and then all our gonna go back to their work/books/kitchens and thats that


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## legolas (Apr 14, 2008)

^ ^  dude.. you can not be serious.. every1 has said what they have to (at least in a forum that is what we can do)


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## pannaguma (Apr 14, 2008)

and of course go back to re-electing wretched souls like "arjun singh" back to power.......


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## infra_red_dude (Apr 14, 2008)

iMav said:


> and that is why the politicians get away because they know all opposition from the general public and especially the middle class is gonna last for a few weeks and then all our gonna go back to their *work/books/kitchens* and thats that


You forgot OS Wars


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## DigitalDude (Apr 14, 2008)

pannaguma said:


> As sometime earlier pointed out, this thread is indeed dying..........


if not for me this thread would have died much earlier 

and I cant perpetually post just for the sake of arguing.. a lot of good arguments have come out of this thread esp from mediator, infra,  slugger, gx, grudge, legolas, confused, gautam, praka, imav etc instead of just name-calling like a few indulged in 



iMav said:


> and that is why the politicians get away because they know all opposition from the general public and especially the middle class is gonna last for a few weeks and then all our gonna go back to their work/books/kitchens and thats that


 
thats all we can do wat else you expected 

_


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## gxsaurav (Apr 14, 2008)

infra_red_dude said:


> Err.. I'm a bit confused. Do you say that coz this reservation we change our field? Or do you mean to say that every individual who aspires to be an Engineer and study at inst. like IITs has a "hidden" designer in him?


 
Don't get confused, all I said was that do what you want to do & what u r capable of doing.



> What if the guy is confident of making a career in Engg, yet loses out the seat by 1 mark due to this?


 
Try in the 2nd best institute...alternates are always there.


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## Faun (Apr 14, 2008)

@DD (not Dexter's sis)
Rang De Basanti


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## DigitalDude (Apr 14, 2008)

^^^
good for a film  not practical in real life.

the only thing practically that can be done is to help the homeless and poor illiterate people to get education, instead of running madly after high paying jobs, start a company and give employment to many 

and instead of blaming just about everyone that we can point our hands at, we should try to discipline ourselves first.

how many of us have the guts to report someone who is copying in our class ?? they might be our best friend
how many of us give a damn when someone is involved in an accident right b4 our eyes ??
how many of us have guts to complain against a professor/lecturer when they dont teach properly ??
how many of us really throw crap in the dustbin instead of the road ??
how many of us have filed a single police complaint (ok might be a gruelling experience) or used the right to information act even once ??
how many of us ........... I can go on asking endlessly....

and truth is even I dont follow many of the above seriously.. once I reported copying to a lecturer in our college, he said its assessment test only no.. they cant do that in the semester exams  but we have equal weightage for 3 assessments (50 marks) and end semester exams (50 marks)... a LOT of people copy these days in my coll.. even the best of the class copy when asked say tht they verify answers... all CCD cameras are a joke.. just an example of what I'm trying to convey


a few of the above things will be more practical than rang de basanti 

_


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## infra_red_dude (Apr 14, 2008)

DigitalDude said:


> how many of us have the guts to report someone who is copying in our class ?? they might be our best friend
> how many of us give a damn when someone is involved in an accident right b4 our eyes ??
> how many of us have guts to complain against a professor/lecturer when they dont teach properly ??
> how many of us really throw crap in the dustbin instead of the road ??
> ...


[Offtopic] Except the first thing  I follow the rest! [/Offtopic]


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## gxsaurav (Apr 14, 2008)

DigitalDude said:


> how many of us have the guts to report someone who is copying in our class ?? they might be our best friend
> how many of us give a damn when someone is involved in an accident right b4 our eyes ??
> how many of us have guts to complain against a professor/lecturer when they dont teach properly ??
> how many of us really throw crap in the dustbin instead of the road ??
> how many of us have filed a single police complaint (ok might be a gruelling experience) or used the right to information act even once ??


 
I have done all of these....


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## DigitalDude (Apr 14, 2008)

kewl 


_


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## pannaguma (Apr 14, 2008)

3rd is my favorite thing to do .......... kidding.....


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## iMav (Apr 14, 2008)

DigitalDude said:


> how many of us have the guts to report someone who is copying in our class ?? they might be our best friend


 bhai agar main aisa karunga toh mera kya hoga 


DigitalDude said:


> how many of us give a damn when someone is involved in an accident right b4 our eyes ??


 hmmm, true havnt done anything havnt seen a lot happening


DigitalDude said:


> how many of us have guts to complain against a professor/lecturer when they dont teach properly ??


 have 2 professors fired 


DigitalDude said:


> how many of us really throw crap in the dustbin instead of the road ??


depends where i am 


DigitalDude said:


> how many of us have filed a single police complaint (ok might be a gruelling experience) or used the right to information act even once ??
> how many of us ........... I can go on asking endlessly....


i did when i lost my sim card


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## pannaguma (Apr 14, 2008)

@digitaldude - plz keep posting some opposing views, so that this thread can stay alive


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## DigitalDude (Apr 15, 2008)

^^^
no mood man 

and I guess saurav bhai saw this ad 

*img138.imageshack.us/img138/4687/lolmathnn7.jpg


a good ad that copies one of the funny images that we receive in the mail fwds  


_


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## m-jeri (Apr 15, 2008)

:yawn:


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## Faun (Apr 15, 2008)

DigitalDude said:


> how many of us have the guts to report someone who is copying in our class ?? they might be our best friend
> how many of us give a damn when someone is involved in an accident right b4 our eyes ??
> how many of us have guts to complain against a professor/lecturer when they dont teach properly ??
> how many of us really throw crap in the dustbin instead of the road ??
> how many of us have filed a single police complaint (ok might be a gruelling experience) or used the right to information act even once ??


I believed in doing my work honestly till college, so there was no point in b!tching abt if someone else is copying, instead I sometime helped with tid-bits of intofrmation. But now in college I rarely go by honesty 

First I would like to help the victim then if he is safe my next priority will be the doers, but I think "hum sirf beemar ka ilaaj kar sakte hai, beemari ka nahi"

Yeah I have complained abt some teachers/professors but it was a bitter experience for me and the teacher/professor too.

I don't eat much outside, but if i do i will keep the wrapper in my pocket if there ar no dustbins around and the wrapper in not that big. Else I have to throw that.

No police complaint as I live in Army area so everything gets sorted out by Army rules  Last priority is Police


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## slugger (Apr 16, 2008)

sorry for budging in late, but I've been hearing/reading people opposing reservation on the grounds that the peron who secures less marks and comes in reservation will be ostricised by the *General category* students. he will always be sniggered upon and looked down upon by the others because he/she has come in through the quota route. and that is supposed to make him feel bad and supress his progress 

*But tell me something,* do you, even for for one second, think this guy will find your polished style of taunting and boycotting even 1 bit offensive. *I think not*. 

This guy lives in a chawl-type housing where he has got to wait in a que to take a morning dump. Probably has to wake up at 0500 to stand in line to fill up water from the only Corporation tap shared by almost 50-60 families. He has grown up in an evironment where it is not uncommon for people to scream at the top of their voice and hurl the choicest of abuses while arguing. He watches the men coming home drunk from work after blowing up a major portion of his salary on booze and gambling and then beating up the wife. he sees his friends going astray in bad company.

*this seat* in the Engg college is the light at the end of his very long tunnel. his route to deliverace from the hell-hole of the life he has to live.

And how, may I ask, is your taunts and boycotts affect him as a student. Forget about the exams and professors. No way in hell would any professor ever discriminate among his/her stuents on grounds of caste creed or religion (1 guy in our class gets to leave .5 hours early every Friday). As for exams, not sure about yours, but here we just put in our Exam numbers on the answer sheets - *No names*

That leaves only the other students. that too should not make ay difference to a determined reservation student from a _poor_ family. You refuse to give him the journal writeups - he takes it directly from the proffy. you refuse to give him the assignment Qs - he goes directly to the proffy for it (actually put up on the notice board here). You refuse to ask him to accompany you Inox, CCD or weekend boozing - do you think he would agree even if you did . And he attends all practicals just to ensure that he does not have to ask for the readings.

I find it very shocking and sad that you treat the  (economically) poor quota student the way you described it. Because *save for one*, caste never really is a factor for us when interacting.

The condition described above is very similar to what one of my friends lives in (except for the husband drinking part - that i assumed). He joined college through the quota route. His marks

F.E = *early 50s* (40 in all theory and the rest internal practical marks)
S.E = *mid 50s*
T.E = *First class (61.x)*
B.E first Sem = *63.x* 

with final year projects being marked liberally, he has a high chance of scoring a distinction in the final year. although all he now needs to do is mantain his First class

*This Saturday he got recruited* by one of India's leading Mfg of Material handling eqpts. will be recieving a starting salary of 2.1 lakhs pa. *FYI* his caste or quota played absolutely no role in him getting his job. sure his social/commn skills aren't polished enuff nor is he very well aware of current affairs, but he is as good, as sincere, even more hardwrking as any *Open Category* student

And he had studied hard and built a good founation during his 4 yrs to acquire the skills that will be needed to work in that Co. *Best thing is*, while the other are going crazy trying to balance GRE TOEFL IELTS CAT along with their project, he is enjoying the best days of his life with an assuared job and no intention of leaving India for studies with his own money. In fact it is going to be *this guy* who will contribute more to india's progeress than *any of us living in oregon, michigan, new york,  louisiana * or wherever it is that we are dreaming of going.

Sure I too would love to see *reservations on economic criteria*. But if the present system does not allow that, the second best option is *exclusion of the Creamy layer.* and since this has been implemented (or should be implemented), I think it is fair enuff (i had mentioned the word *quite satisfied*)

It would be highly feudalistic of you to oppose the entry of a _economically challenged_ youth through the quota route.

*@ infra_red*
d00d the 4-5 year old Qs reference was not made wrt to the quota thing. it was more a reflection of the current Ed system and how *anybody* can clear engg xams - *interest in the branch notwithstanding*


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## iMav (Apr 16, 2008)

dude ur missing the entire point of giving upto 50% reservations  theres no point in replying to such a long post with another long post


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## mediator (Apr 16, 2008)

slugger said:
			
		

> But tell me something, do you, even for for one second, think this guy will find your polished style of taunting and boycotting even 1 bit offensive. I think not.
> 
> This guy lives in a chawl-type housing where he has got to wait in a que to take a morning dump. Probably has to wake up at 0500 to stand in line to fill up water from the only Corporation tap shared by almost 50-60 families. He has grown up in an evironment where it is not uncommon for people to scream at the top of their voice and hurl the choicest of abuses while arguing. He watches the men coming home drunk from work after blowing up a major portion of his salary on booze and gambling and then beating up the wife. he sees his friends going astray in bad company.


1 bit offensive? That one 1 bit might turn ito a gigabit. Muslims hate when media speaks that ISLAM is associated with terrorism, people of bihar and others have started taking "bihari" literally as an abuse even though others don't mean it, people in UP, delhi etc kill each other even at the slightest provocation. Even a beggar wud howl, if u lecture and abuse him all the time. All I can say is live in the Sun and face the reality.



			
				slugger said:
			
		

> this seat in the Engg college is the light at the end of his very long tunnel. his route to deliverace from the hell-hole of the life he has to live.


Sure, let us abolish the primary education, make "gull danda" as the primary part of those 15-17 years and then say for graduation, "Oh, we can do it in the nick of time. Bring it on......I see light at the end of the tunnel"! 



			
				slugger said:
			
		

> I find it very shocking and sad *that you treat the (economically) poor quota student the way you described it.* Because save for one, caste never really is a factor for us when interacting.


Either ur english is very poor or u don't understand things clearly. I and AFAIK, other anti-reservation souls here, never said poor students are treated like that, but the reservation tagged ones. There's a world of difference between the two!! Learn why reservation started and if those OBCs/SCs/STs are really financially poor and why reserve seats in IIMs since after graduation, a person cannot be called "educationally backwards"! Are u telling to skip graduation also and come straight to post graduation thru reservation. Hell, I guess then in PH.D too we shud have reservations. Forget that, IMHO, NASA shud resverve seats for INDIANS and people shud get their thru reservation!! Duh, I also need a chance to be on the top of world and learn the advanced stuff in a shortcut way. 


@slugger : Learn to read the previous replies, slowly, ponder and understand them so as to save the tremendous amount of repeatitions that may follow eventually.......or if u still by any chance don't undertsand even after severe meditation on them, then quote em line by line and then ask or reply to them!


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## m-jeri (Apr 16, 2008)

^^ slugger 

didnt read the post any ways.. ...

but u should think soemthings else....

1.if the type of guy who wanted the light at the end of tunnel and had to avoid waiting to take a dump or get water...he'll  be smart enough to get to the place he wants without the reservation..that deserving..

2.if he wants the push of reservation..that is charity and he doesnot deserve to be their...

3.how many of us didnt get into this institutions....i kno i didnt...do i complain..no..but i dream tht my child could atleast get in...

4. only the deserving deserve this seat...not the undermined or elite...

5. can u imagine a ppl like tht who took everything for granted or oppressed in a position like u said ..... theyll be pissed at the very ppl who undermined them...mind u its true....

6. yeas i am only opposing this coz the percentage have gone up ....

English used to say god save the king and queen...now its time to say

GOD PLEASE SAVE OUR NATION......


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## confused (Apr 17, 2008)

America, main aa rahaan hun !!!


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## m-jeri (Apr 18, 2008)

.....nice siggy


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## infra_red_dude (Apr 19, 2008)

@slugger
Dude! You've missed the whole point and you are SO WRONG! You've spoken as if all the SC/ST/OBC "categorised" ppl are the poorest of the poor! Not all SC/ST/OBC "categoried" ppl are poor and NOT all poor people are SC/ST/OBC "categorised"!!!


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## slugger (Apr 19, 2008)

*@infra_red*
d00d, in _each and every post_ i've made in this thread, every time i've mentioned a reservation student, i've alwyas added the adjective *economically poor* or something to that effect

at no point of time have i been arguing for resrvation for all OBC/SC/ST student (i always mention exclusion of creamy layer of the OBC as a good thing that has happened)

whereas you all are against reservations of any sorts, *economic condition notwithstanding*

we ourselves *let our displeasure known* when the son of a well-off kid uses his caste to seek admission

well i have started operating under highly rationed Internet hours till mid-june. wouldn't want to spend it any more discussing social issues and justifying/explaining decisions which were not made by me

Cheers


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## infra_red_dude (Apr 19, 2008)

slugger said:


> *@infra_red*
> whereas you all are against reservations of any sorts, *economic condition notwithstanding*


You need to read all my posts again. I've advocated reservation for economically poor families. All of us are asking this Q: If we can haf reservations for SC/ST/OBCs then why not economically poor people?


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## iMav (Apr 19, 2008)

if ur having reservation make sure that the one's who come from the merit route do not suffer and the people who are getting reservation actually need it, 50% seats in an institute are reserved is detrimental to the quality of students that will pass from and enroll into the institute rsulting into fall in education standards


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## ThinkFree (Apr 19, 2008)

^^Definitely the standards are lowered. A student from reserved category gets admission scoring 55-60% while a general student is unable even if he gets 75%. Already there is shortage of good teachers and the government is increasing number of seats to ensure a healthy vote bank by increasing reservation. Though there should be a periodic review of reserved castes, but the government hardly bothers to do so


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## legolas (Apr 20, 2008)

.... and majority becomes minority
minority becomes majority
and we start singing "what goes around goes around comes all the way back around"


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## ajit456 (Nov 18, 2008)

yeah exactly....eariler* if it was * lyk
FC>BC>MBC>SC>ST
Now instead of solving the problem, they have found a temporary solution by reversing the order FC<BC<MBC<SC<ST...yea, in future this will b da case....
The real solution is to make the reservation policy based on economical status .....


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