# UPS problem in low voltage, power fluctuation, PC getting restart..



## kool (May 21, 2011)

Hi guys.
My UPS is now 1 year old, its working fine until  power fluctuation has started in this summer. My PC has restarted more than 5 times a day. UPS is giving backup, but unable to control power fluctuation in my home. These little bit low voltage, Others appliances working fine even in low voltage like refrigerator, LCD TV, Tube light 40w etc. 

So, guys *give me any solution for this problem.. for low voltage, power fluctuation. Is there any device that can control my UPS fluctuation? like stabilizer? what would be its cost?*

*I've INTEX GREENX 600VA*

*www.intextechnologies.com/webadmin/Image/Greenx600.jpg
*www.intextechnologies.com/webpages/producthomeups.aspx?category=Computer%20Peripherals&subcat=UPS&subcat1=600%20VA&pro_name=Green%20X%20600VA


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## tkin (May 23, 2011)

Well instead of buying stabilizer get APC 500va ups, should be around 2k.

PS: Intex psus are crap, had issues with one long back.


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## kool (Jun 12, 2011)

Electrician has suggested me to buy a voltage stabilizer of 500va. u guys tell me now, is 500VA good for me or not? reply...


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## thetechfreak (Jun 12, 2011)

kool said:
			
		

> Electrician has suggested me to buy a voltage stabilizer of 500va.


 I suggest you to get a proper UPS. An APC 500w or a Numeric of similar rating would be great



> u guys tell me now, is 500VA good for me or not? reply...


 What is you're complete config? If you have no GPU its fine

Also, what PSU do you have?


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## kool (Jun 12, 2011)

now i don't want to buy any ups. Before this i had microtek ups even that was also unable to control. In my house in summer it reaches to low voltage, so ups start giving sound. So suggest me a good stablizer. I ve samsung lcd monitor 17", and nvidea gs8200 grafix card. Nw 500va or 1kva stabliser?


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## thetechfreak (Jun 12, 2011)

IF you dont plan to get a fast PC in the near future in near future, 500 VA will do.

BTW, why dont you connect just the CPU to stabiliser?


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## tkin (Jun 12, 2011)

kool said:


> Electrician has suggested me to buy a voltage stabilizer of 500va. u guys tell me now, is 500VA good for me or not? reply...


An APC UPS has a very good inbuilt voltage stabilizer, buy that and get both features. I am using one with the below config.


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## kool (Jun 14, 2011)

i bought a local stablizer of 500va input range: 90v-280v o/p: 210v-240v, but still it has same prob, whenever i turn ON AC in other room, it gets restart,


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## saswat23 (Jun 14, 2011)

Which PSU do you have. It seems like its a PSU problem. 
Me too having the same problem. When i switch on AC, then volatge is quite low, but my UPS gives me backup so that i can switch off my PC safely.


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## pimpom (Jun 14, 2011)

@OP: At least a part of your problem may be due to a poor PSU (SMPS).

Voltage regulating devices like stabilisers and UPSes need a finite time to react to voltage fluctuations. The reaction time may range from a few milliseconds to as much as hundreds of millisecs. The computer PSU has to be able to store enough energy in its capacitors to keep on powering the computer during this period. A low-quality PSU may not be able to do that.


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## avichandana20000 (Jun 15, 2011)

@ OP : pls give the pc config as has been demanded so that you will be rightly guided before you burn up a big hole in your pocket. also remember all the members of this forum will guide u to get rid of the problems correctly but if you stick to your own crappy ideas then it hurts us.  An APC is a world leader in UPS but instead of asking things regarding that u have bought a voltage stabilizer which is a waste of money altogether and as expected your problem is not solved. u have used microtek,intex and all those are elcheapo ups.So please wake up  and kindly put the PC specs now so that we can tell you exactly how to hammer the problem.


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## MegaMind (Jun 15, 2011)

@OP, this problem never ends until u get a good brand UPS...
I faced the same prob when i was using zeb 600va UPS. Solved wen switched to APC 600va, which now costs 1.8K


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## kool (Aug 6, 2011)

avichandana20000 said:


> @ OP : pls give the pc config as has been demanded so that you will be rightly guided before you burn up a big hole in your pocket. also remember all the members of this forum will guide u to get rid of the problems correctly but if you stick to your own crappy ideas then it hurts us.  An APC is a world leader in UPS but instead of asking things regarding that u have bought a voltage stabilizer which is a waste of money altogether and as expected your problem is not solved. u have used microtek,intex and all those are elcheapo ups.So please wake up  and kindly put the PC specs now so that we can tell you exactly how to hammer the problem.



i'm really sorry guys, i really wasted my money and my peace! Stabilizer is useless for me now, Rs.1300,  i took UPS to service center, and they said _"UPS is fine, may be there is earthing problem in power socket."_ But my electrician said earthing is fine. Now he is saying _"to add direct single line from main power pole to power socket."_  guys please help me. *Would I've to buy again new UPS?  *My voltage get fluctuates up to 130v. I'm waiting for your answer...,

its again *INTEX smps*.  i'm writing here all details what i've got on its sticker- 
*POWER SUPPLY SMART IT 2045S+*
450W, 20+4PIN, 2 SATA, 2HDD, 1FDD, 1FAN, 
AC: 220V 50-60HZ, 5A 
DC: +3.3V:30A +5V:29A +12V:18A, 12V:0.5A +5VSB:2A

*PC Hardware Config:* 
Nvidia 512 mb GFX card, 17" Samsung LCD, 2 GB RAM, 2 SATA HDD of 160GB + 500 GB, keyboard, mouse, Bluetooth dongle. 
In UPS it has 3 sockets where i've plugged:LCD Monitor, CPU, & BSNL Siemens c2110 modem.


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## MegaMind (Aug 7, 2011)

I still suggest u to go for APC 600va...


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## kool (Aug 7, 2011)

MegaMind said:


> I still suggest u to go for APC 600va...


 Any strong reason? what would be its cost?


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## pimpom (Aug 7, 2011)

The problem is a combination of poor mains supply, poor UPS and poor PSU.  You can't control the mains supply, but you can do something about the other two.

I'm not familiar with the specific model of PSU you're using, but if it's an Intex, it must be a very ordinary one. It may be OK when the household AC supply is normal. But it's not likely to be able to handle the wild fluctuations you've stated.

As I said before, the UPS and the new stabiliser you bought need a brief period of time - maybe up to 1 second - while they adjust to the fluctuations. A good PSU will be able to use the energy stored in its capacitors during that period, but a poor PSU has too little stored energy to do that.

As other have suggested, a good UPS will help solve the problem, but you also need a good PSU.


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## MegaMind (Aug 7, 2011)

kool said:


> Any strong reason? what would be its cost?



1.7K



pimpom said:


> It may be OK when the household AC supply is normal. But it's not likely to be able to handle the wild fluctuations you've stated.



Very True..


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## kool (Aug 7, 2011)

MegaMind said:


> 1.7K
> 
> 
> 
> Very True..


Just Rs.1700, i think my intex UPS was also for Rs.1.7k  galti kar di yaar, INTEX le kar, but guys, plzzz assure me that APC can control fluctuation, this time i don't wanna money, else my mom will kill me for already spending for PSU+UPS+STABLIZER = 500+1700+1300 = Rs.3500  

By d way, intex UPS works fine but during normal power and normal power cut, but unable to handle fluctuations.


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## MegaMind (Aug 7, 2011)

^^Wat?? u bought new intex PSU??


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## kool (Aug 7, 2011)

pimpom said:


> The problem is a combination of poor mains supply, poor UPS and poor PSU.  You can't control the mains supply, but you can do something about the other two.
> 
> 
> As other have suggested, a good UPS will help solve the problem, but you also need a good PSU.



U guys are sure?? that i've to buy PSU+UPS ??? Which model PSU?



MegaMind said:


> ^^Wat?? u bought new intex PSU??


 no no. its old one in my cpu. m asking, which psu should i buy??


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## MegaMind (Aug 7, 2011)

^^Again budget?

The cheapest solution for PSU is FSP SagaII 400 - 1.5~1.8k


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## kool (Aug 7, 2011)

MegaMind said:


> ^^Again budget?
> 
> The cheapest solution for PSU is FSP SagaII 400 - 1.5~1.8k



i can spend total Rs.4000 for UPS+PSU, so tell me.


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## MegaMind (Aug 7, 2011)

kool said:


> i can spend total Rs.4000 for UPS+PSU, so tell me.



Then u can opt for, APC 600va + FSP Saga II 500W/Corsair CX400 - 3.8~4K for both..

P.S : If u can find a CX400 get it eyes closed..


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## kool (Aug 7, 2011)

MegaMind said:


> Then u can opt for, APC 600va + FSP Saga II 500W/Corsair CX400 - 3.8~4K for both..
> 
> P.S : If u can find a CX400 get it eyes closed..


from where i can get latest prices for these 2? and APC 600va, is that all? or any specific model for APC?

How u know so much abt PSU+UPS? r u Electrical Engineer?

Corsair 400 is very costly, just nw i checked it on ebay.in  Corsair CX400W 400 Watt Power Supply SATA-Ready SMPS | eBay


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## dashing.sujay (Aug 7, 2011)

You can have a look at this- Cooler Master eXtreme Power Plus 460W – 2,400

BTW guys, can a simple UPS handle fluctuations occuring 10 times/min, from 100V to 300V. Its the situation at my home.  

Check out PSU Prices


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## MegaMind (Aug 7, 2011)

kool said:


> from where i can get latest prices for these 2? and APC 600va, is that all? or any specific model for APC?


Just ask APC 600va.. To be more specific, the model is RS-600..



> How u know so much abt PSU+UPS? r u Electrical Engineer?


sort of engg.. But Trial n Error method..



> Corsair 400 is very costly, just nw i checked it on ebay.in  Corsair CX400W 400 Watt Power Supply SATA-Ready SMPS | eBay



*CX400*.. 
Get whichever suits ur budget, FSP saga II 500W/CX400/CX430V2..



dashing.sujay said:


> You can have a look at this- Cooler Master eXtreme Power Plus 460W – 2,400



Its a big *NO* to that PSU.. Extreme power series are not reliable..



dashing.sujay said:


> BTW guys, can u *simple* UPS handle fluctuations occuring 10 times/min, from 100V to 300V. Its the situation at my home.



*Simple* in the sense? 

My bro has same pow fluctuation issues in his home.. 
His rig is,
C2Q Q8400 + 8600gt powered by CX400 + APC 600W and no issues whatsoever till now..


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## dashing.sujay (Aug 7, 2011)

MegaMind said:


> Its a big *NO* to that PSU..
> why a big NO?
> 
> 
> ...


simple means this APC RS600. I own it currently, but i dont think it will be able to handle that much fluctuation at my home.


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## Tenida (Aug 7, 2011)

kool said:


> from where i can get latest prices for these 2? and APC 600va, is that all? or any specific model for APC?
> 
> How u know so much abt PSU+UPS? r u Electrical Engineer?
> 
> Corsair 400 is very costly, just nw i checked it on ebay.in  Corsair CX400W 400 Watt Power Supply SATA-Ready SMPS | eBay



Better you consider APC 650Va ups.

APC BACK-UPS ES 650VA 230V INDIA


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## kool (Aug 8, 2011)

Tenida said:


> Better you consider APC 650Va ups.
> 
> APC BACK-UPS ES 650VA 230V INDIA


nw what is d diff b/w 650va & 600va ups? and cost?


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## Tenida (Aug 8, 2011)

Specs:-
Apc 650VA
Apc 600VA

*Apc 650VA*- Output Power Capacity
Output Power Capacity
390 Watts / 650 VA
Max Configurable Power
390 Watts / 650 VA
Nominal Output Voltage
230V
Output Frequency (sync to mains)
47 - 63 Hz
Waveform Type
Stepped approximation to a sinewave
Output Connections
(1) India 2/3-pin 6A (Surge Protection) 	
(3) India 2/3-pin 6A (Battery Backup) 

*With automatic Shutdown software*

Cost- Rs 2K i think.


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## kool (Aug 8, 2011)

is it necessary to buy UPS+PSU? both are costly...


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## dashing.sujay (Aug 8, 2011)

kool said:


> is it necessary to buy UPS+PSU? both are costly...



If you want safety of ur system, then ya  nahi to


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## kool (Aug 8, 2011)

Tenida said:


> Specs:-
> Apc 650VA
> Apc 600VA
> 
> ...



why the hell this APC can only handle fluctuation compare to other brands like INTEX & MICROTEK?


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## dashing.sujay (Aug 8, 2011)

kool said:


> why the hell this APC can only handle fluctuation compare to other brands like INTEX & MICROTEK?



Because of their quality build and better surge protection, thus better protection from voltage spikes/fluctuation.


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## kool (Aug 8, 2011)

dashing.sujay said:


> Because of their quality build and better surge protection, thus better protection from voltage spikes/fluctuation.



can only UPS solve my problem?


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## Tenida (Aug 8, 2011)

APC is like Corsair,Seasonic,and FSP in psu and Intex,Microtek and IBALL UPS is like Frontech and iball psu.


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## pimpom (Aug 8, 2011)

kool said:


> can only UPS solve my problem?


I can understand your desire to solve the problem without buying both a UPS and a PSU, especially as you have to ask your parents for the money. But there's no way anyone can answer that question with 100% certainty. There are simply too many unknown and unpredictable factors.

If I were to make an educated guess based on a combination of theory and practical experience, I'd say no, a UPS alone will not solve the problem completely. It may improve the situation to some extent but there will be days when the fluctuations are worse and you will still face problems.


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## MegaMind (Aug 8, 2011)

Tenida said:


> Better you consider APC 650Va ups.



APC 600VA is enough for OP's needs.. If he has enough dough to spend n need extra backup he can go for 650VA..



kool said:


> is it necessary to buy UPS+PSU? both are costly...



u get wat u pay for...


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## westom (Aug 8, 2011)

kool said:


> can only UPS solve my problem?



  Useful answers will also say why and with numbers.  For example, all computers must work perfectly fine even when voltage drops so low that incandescent bulbs are at less than 40% intensity.  How often are your bulbs dimming that low?  If not, then you are not suffering low voltage.

  Many UPSes are so cheap as to trip into battery backup mode even on noise.  Irrelevant anomalies can make the UPS act as if low voltage exists.

  UPS power in battery backup mode is often the 'dirtiest' power in a house.  UPS power can be so 'dirty' as to potentially harm small electric motors or power strip protectors.  Because all electronics are so robust, 'dirty' UPS power is also ideal perfect power to all electronics.

  Is that UPS power confusing power circuits inside a computer?  If a UPS is doing its job, then yank the UPS power cord from a wall receptacle.  The computer should work perfectly normal as it power always exists.  If not, the UPS is causing problems.  Remember, a UPS has a typical life expectancy of about three years.  These things are made as cheaply as possible.

  If a UPS protects from surges, then its spec sheets said so with a numbers for each type of surge.   No such numbers were posted in that last list of specs.  Did you overlook them?  Or, more likely, the UPS (like most all plug-in UPSes) does not claim effective surge protection.  That protection exists in advertising and subjective claims where lying is acceptable.

  Your every question should be answered by quoting manufacturer spec numbers.  Any reply without facts and numbers that says why should always be ignored as hearsay.

  This UPS, that is also an approximation to a sine wave, outputs square waves with a large spike between those square waves.  Power so 'dirty' as to be potentially harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors.  And yes, they did not lie.  Because square waves and spikes are sums of sine waves.  They hope you do not ask for numbers such as the frequency of each sine wave.

  UPS has one function.  To provide temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout.  Other anomalies are solved by other solutions.  Every honest recommendation comes with facts and numbers that say why that really is a solution.  No tech numbers is how to filter out the uninformed from those who actually learned the engineering.


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## pimpom (Aug 8, 2011)

^Experience in forums and newsgroups has taught me that a too-technical answer to a non-technical person is either ignored or misinterpreted or both. For example, I explained in the simplest terms the role of the filter caps in the PSU, but it apparently flew right by the OP without registering in his mind.

When replying to a question in a forum, the answer should be tailored to a level that the OP can understand. I teach EE graduates in the practical application of the raw background knowledge they acquired in college, but judging from the OP's posts, an in-depth technical answer would be way over his head. For example, he's hardly in a position to monitor the light output of his bulbs and see if they drop down to 40%, or understand what a "dirty" power supply is without a lot of further explanation.

It's not uncommon to see inaccuracies and omissions in replies posted by people who are genuinely trying to help. In such cases, it's best to politely provide corrections and fill in the gaps rather than calling them "uninformed" or telling the OP to ignore them.


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## kool (Aug 8, 2011)

MegaMind said:


> APC 600VA is enough for OP's needs.. If he has enough dough to spend n need extra backup he can go for 650VA..
> 
> u get wat u pay for...



i don't want extra backup, 5min. is enough for me, so i can shutdown my PC. Is that only difference in 650va that it gives extra backup time? 

 By d way m living in apartment in the main area of Patna, but due to increasing new apartments, malls, shopping complex power fluctuations has been increased. everybody is using 2-3 AC's in one flat. 



westom said:


> Useful answers will also say why and with numbers.  For example, all computers must work perfectly fine even when voltage drops so low that incandescent bulbs are at less than 40% intensity.  How often are your bulbs dimming that low?  If not, then you are not suffering low voltage.
> 
> 
> UPS has one function.  To provide temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout.  Other anomalies are solved by other solutions.  Every honest recommendation comes with facts and numbers that say why that really is a solution.  No tech numbers is how to filter out the uninformed from those who actually learned the engineering.



Sir, 
describe in simple language..  and, Bulb or CFL light not decrease, its just fluctuate at every 30 min. 



pimpom said:


> I can understand your desire to solve the problem without buying both a UPS and a PSU, especially as you have to ask your parents for the money. But there's no way anyone can answer that question with 100% certainty. There are simply too many unknown and unpredictable factors.
> 
> If I were to make an educated guess based on a combination of theory and practical experience, I'd say no, a UPS alone will not solve the problem completely. It may improve the situation to some extent but there will be days when the fluctuations are worse and you will still face problems.



Ok sir, finally going to buy both PSU+UPS. u teach to EEE students, then u must be right.  By d way, today i just plugged only CPU to intex UPS and Monitor to main socket. Now its working fine, but still dont wanna take risk.


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## pimpom (Aug 8, 2011)

kool said:


> Ok sir, finally going to buy both PSU+UPS. u teach to EEE students, then u must be right.


A slight correction: The term EE is often used in the west to lump electrical engineers and electronics engineers together. I sometimes train EE graduates after they have received their degrees.

The training is not a full-time profession. I conduct a six-month course when I have time or when I'm requested by some agencies or government departments. Often the EEs train together with non-graduates.

I don't know everything about computers, electronics or electrical engineering, but when I make a post, I try to make sure that what I say is accurate and helpful. I really shouldn't keep talking about myself, but I felt that the previous poster's comments needed some clarification.

Oh, and you don't have to call me 'Sir'. I'm just an ordinary member of the forum.


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## MegaMind (Aug 8, 2011)

kool said:


> i don't want extra backup, 5min. is enough for me, so i can shutdown my PC. Is that only difference in 650va that it gives extra backup time?



Yes..


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## westom (Aug 8, 2011)

kool said:


> describe in simple language..  and, Bulb or CFL light not decrease, its just fluctuate at every 30 min.



 If voltage drops low enough to affect electronics, then VCR or microwave clocks would be reset with each incandescent bulb flicker.  If not, voltage was not too low.  Low voltage also does not cause electronics damage.  Is only an inconvenience or a threat to unsaved data.

  Does incandescent bulb dim to 40% intensity?  Any 13 year old can answer that.  If bulbs are dimming that much, then motorized appliances (not electronics) may be at risk. And that building might have a serious human safety issue.  Never cure symptoms.  Always solve the problem.

   Do the unplugged UPS test.  Informed consumers do that to confirm that a UPS is actually doing anything.

  And finally, no plug-in UPS does that surge protection.  Does not claim to.  Cannot possibly do it.  That protection is a popular myth often promoted by those without electrical knowledge. Even the manufacturer does not claim that protection.

  UPS has one function. To provide temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout. Other anomalies are solved by other solutions.  A useful recommendation comes with facts and numbers that say why that really is a solution. No tech numbers is how to filter out the uninformed from those who actually learned the engineering.  You have asked a technical question. Any answer without numbers is best ignored as a myth.


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## dashing.sujay (Aug 9, 2011)

kool said:


> can only UPS solve my problem?



I replied to ur PM, i suppose you didnt went through it. Please go through it. Yeah you'll need it both of them.



pimpom said:


> ^Experience in forums and newsgroups has taught me that a too-technical answer to a non-technical person is either ignored or misinterpreted or both. For example, I explained in the simplest terms the role of the filter caps in the PSU, but it apparently flew right by the OP without registering in his mind.
> 
> When replying to a question in a forum, the answer should be tailored to a level that the OP can understand. I teach EE graduates in the practical application of the raw background knowledge they acquired in college, but judging from the OP's posts, an in-depth technical answer would be way over his head. For example, he's hardly in a position to monitor the light output of his bulbs and see if they drop down to 40%, or understand what a "dirty" power supply is without a lot of further explanation.
> 
> It's not uncommon to see inaccuracies and omissions in replies posted by people who are genuinely trying to help. In such cases, it's best to politely provide corrections and fill in the gaps rather than calling them "uninformed" or telling the OP to ignore them.



 Actually, some lines bounced me too , especially the *dirty* thing!


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## kool (Aug 9, 2011)

dashing.sujay said:


> I replied to ur PM, i suppose you didnt went through it. Please go through it. Yeah you'll need it both of them.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, some lines bounced me too , especially the *dirty* thing!


 me tooooooo


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## pimpom (Aug 9, 2011)

dashing.sujay said:


> Actually, some lines bounced me too , especially the *dirty* thing!


OK, here's an explanation in simple terms: An ideal mains voltage would be one in which the voltage changes constantly, following a pure sine wave. A perfect sine wave does not exist in practice because there is always some distortion of the waveform. But the power generated at a public power house is a good approximation of a sine wave. This is called a "clean" wave because it follows the smooth shape of a trigonometric sine curve as plotted on paper or displayed on a screen.

However, due to various factors, the AC voltage picks up other waveforms on its way to the consumer and the combined waveform is no longer so smooth. There may be distortions and spikes to the wave shape. That is what is called a dirty supply.

Also, the AC output generated by a common UPS is not a sine wave to begin with. So it's also "dirty".

I'm pressed for time right now. Later, I'll do CAD simulations of clean and distorted (dirty) waveforms and post their images here.


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## dashing.sujay (Aug 9, 2011)

pimpom said:


> OK, here's an explanation in simple terms: An ideal mains voltage would be one in which the voltage changes constantly, following a pure sine wave. A perfect sine wave does not exist in practice because there is always some distortion of the waveform. But the power generated at a public power house is a good approximation of a sine wave. This is called a "clean" wave because it follows the smooth shape of a trigonometric sine curve as plotted on paper or displayed on a screen.
> 
> However, due to various factors, the AC voltage picks up other waveforms on its way to the consumer and the combined waveform is no longer so smooth. There may be distortions and spikes to the wave shape. That is what is called a dirty supply.
> 
> ...



Thnx, now its more clear  btw you did Elect engg ? I'm from CS field, nd have very low understanding in electrical field , although i've interest in it, i.e. how actually they work technically  
and moreover after reading your answer it seems, "* yaar, lagta hai maine aisa padha(or dekha ) tha kahin  *"


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## kool (Aug 9, 2011)

Guys,
 just nw i bought APC 600VA, searched in more than 20 shops, and finally found in last shop for Rs.2000. When i checked for backup mode by switching off from *"socket"*, it went to battery mode with low beep sound.  And then i checked by switching off *"Mains power" *then first my whole house power went to inverter mode(SU-KAM 800va), then i went to my room, and my *PC restarted*.    

By the way *CORSAIR brand is not available in Patna*, So anybody tell me from where i can get ? Which online store is best?  One of service center of DELL said, may be earthing problem in home.


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## pimpom (Aug 9, 2011)

dashing.sujay said:


> Thnx, now its more clear  btw you did Elect engg ? I'm from CS field, nd have very low understanding in electrical field , although i've interest in it, i.e. how actually they work technically
> and moreover after reading your answer it seems, "* yaar, lagta hai maine aisa padha(or dekha ) tha kahin  *"


I'm in electronics. I work at home and spend most of my time these days in custom  designing and construction. No, I haven't done any engineering course. I'm entirely self-taught. I started teaching myself electronics when I was doing B.Sc. in college and really really worked hard at it instead of just messing around at the hobbyist level.

I don't speak Hindi, so I called a friend and asked him to translate what you said. I think it means something like "Oh, I feel as if I've known (or seen) you before". Is that correct? Maybe you've read some of my previous posts and recognized the style of writing.


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## kool (Aug 9, 2011)

kool said:


> Guys,
> just nw i bought APC 600VA, searched in more than 20 shops, and finally found in last shop for Rs.2000. When i checked for backup mode by switching off from *"socket"*, it went to battery mode with low beep sound.  And then i checked by switching off *"Mains power" *then first my whole house power went to inverter mode(SU-KAM 800va), then i went to my room, and my *PC restarted*.
> 
> By the way *CORSAIR brand is not available in Patna*, So anybody tell me from where i can get ? Which online store is best?  One of service center of DELL said, may be earthing problem in home.


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## dashing.sujay (Aug 9, 2011)

kool said:


>



You have to recharge a newly bought UPS for multiple hours before it gets fully charged! At least for 4-6 hrs i suppose. And for online buying, you can check out
theitwares.com
letsbuy.com
flipkart.com
lynx-india.com


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## kool (Aug 9, 2011)

dashing.sujay said:


> You have to recharge a newly bought UPS for multiple hours before it gets fully charged! At least for 4-6 hrs i suppose. And for online buying, you can check out
> theitwares.com
> letsbuy.com
> flipkart.com
> lynx-india.com



Oh, i didn't charged till nw..  by the way how is this site?? 
TheITWares - One Stop for all Gizmos!CORSAIR Builder Series CX430 CMPSU-430CX 430W ATX12V Active PFC Power Supply 
*Costing Rs.2250+Rs150 or should i go to ebay.in ?? *

*www.theitwares.com/images/CX430_2.jpg


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## MegaMind (Aug 9, 2011)

kool said:


> Oh, i didn't charged till nw..  by the way how is this site??
> TheITWares - One Stop for all Gizmos!CORSAIR Builder Series CX430 CMPSU-430CX 430W ATX12V Active PFC Power Supply
> *Costing Rs.2250+Rs150 or should i go to ebay.in ?? *



Itwares are reliable.. U can get it..


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## dashing.sujay (Aug 9, 2011)

kool said:


> Oh, i didn't charged till nw..  by the way how is this site??
> TheITWares - One Stop for all Gizmos!CORSAIR Builder Series CX430 CMPSU-430CX 430W ATX12V Active PFC Power Supply
> *Costing Rs.2250+Rs150 or should i go to ebay.in ?? *





dashing.sujay said:


> * And for online buying, you can check out
> theitwares.com
> letsbuy.com
> flipkart.com
> lynx-india.com *




i already mentioned it!!


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## kool (Aug 9, 2011)

dashing.sujay said:


> i already mentioned it!!



OK, plz dont get annoyed.. last time i'm asking, should i buy this na? CORSAIR CX430 and there is another CX430 V2, what is the diff b/w them? 

One more help i need, can anybody provide me disount coupon for EBAY.IN? here i got, but i'm unable to use. Check this out.. Ebay Discount Coupon
*1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZghW962bE2o/TjpVt_BmalI/AAAAAAAAAtw/k639zGtLA_s/s550/i.JPG


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## MegaMind (Aug 9, 2011)

Read the first page of it.... *Corsair CX430 V2 Power Supply Review*


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## dashing.sujay (Aug 9, 2011)

kool said:


> OK, plz dont get annoyed.. last time i'm asking, should i buy this na? CORSAIR CX430 and there is another CX430 V2, what is the diff b/w them?
> 
> One more help i need, can anybody provide me disount coupon for EBAY.IN? here i got, but i'm unable to use. Check this out.. Ebay Discount Coupon
> *1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZghW962bE2o/TjpVt_BmalI/AAAAAAAAAtw/k639zGtLA_s/s550/i.JPG



Are, am not getting annoyed at all, its just that i llike that smiley very much   
And about ebay discount coupon, i can say that go for the one which costs u less (applyin coupon in case of ebay, if it works), as  both the sites are trustable.


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## kool (Aug 9, 2011)

dashing.sujay said:


> Are, am not getting annoyed at all, its just that i llike that smiley very much
> And about ebay discount coupon, i can say that go for the one which costs u less (applyin coupon in case of ebay, if it works), as  both the sites are trustable.



he he he...  just nw i recharged my cell with Rs.55 and money deducted but failed recharge, and message popped: "Due to technical problem failed to recharge, money will refunded within 8 days" and at the bottom i received ebay discount code 10% flat off on any products.!! yay yay... 



MegaMind said:


> Read the first page of it.... *Corsair CX430 V2 Power Supply Review*



So u tell me Mr. MegaMind, both are same? I'm not getting those technical language in that page. Just suggest me last time, in few hours i'm going to buy thru ebay.in with 10% off


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## MegaMind (Aug 9, 2011)

kool said:


> both are same? I'm not getting those technical language in that page. Just suggest me last time, in few hours i'm going to buy thru ebay.in with 10% off



Go for it.. the V2 has ~3% higher efficiency @100% load due to the presence of active PFC transistors.. For ur rig there wont be any difference..


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## pimpom (Aug 9, 2011)

I said earlier that I'll post some examples of "clean" and "dirty" AC voltage waveforms. Here they are. There's an infinite number of different kinds of distorted wave shapes, so these are just examples.

*img856.imageshack.us/img856/6298/wavedistortion.png


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## westom (Aug 10, 2011)

dashing.sujay said:


> So basically, "dirty" currents are currents with spikes? Isn't it?



   'Dirty' is a layman's term for those and many other anomalies including power factor, harmonics, frequency variation, floating ground, etc.

   'Dirtiest' of those waveforms is ideal power to all electronics.  Some UPSes output power with spikes and other 'undesirable' waveforms that are even worse.  Due to the so many functions found in every power supply, those anomalies are made irrelevant.

  A 320 volt spike must be made completely irrelevant by circuits inside electronics.  And ignored by surge protectors.  Electronics were required by international design standards (when I started designing over 40 years ago) to withstand larger spikes without damage.  

  Power from a UPS in battery backup mode can be so 'dirty' as to potentially harm small electric motors and power strip protectors.  That same power is ideal for all electronics.  Due to protection standard in electronics, some of the 'dirtiest' power comes from a UPS in battery backup mode.  And causes no electronics damage.

  CPU's have even more layers of protection.  Rarely do any external transients damage a CPU.  The CPU even has another power supply making it that much more robust.  Most CPU failures are due to manufacturing defects or a mistake by another frequent source of damage - human hands.

  Defined is how some protectors can bypass protection inside a PSU. Cause motherboard damage by connecting a destructively transient directly to that motherboard.  Also typically does not cause CPU damage.  Damage is defined by following the current path from an incoming point to so other outgoing point.

  Any layman can watch incandescent bulbs.  Any layman can see what the clock in any VCR or microwave oven does. If lights do not dim to 40% intensity, then voltage variations are ideal perfect power for all electronics.  If VCR or microwave clocks do not reset, then voltages are perfectly ideal.  Examples of what should be observed before fixing it.


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## dashing.sujay (Aug 10, 2011)

pimpom said:


> I said earlier that I'll post some examples of "clean" and "dirty" AC voltage waveforms. Here they are. There's an infinite number of different kinds of distorted wave shapes, so these are just examples.
> 
> *img856.imageshack.us/img856/6298/wavedistortion.png



So basically, "dirty" currents are currents with spikes? Isn't it?

hmm.. that's more clear now, thnx . I'm telling you one incident of mine, you judge it by ur exp what actually happened.

I had an intex UPS & a normal PSU that is usually bundled with cabinet. I had compaq pc and psu was factory supplied. Power  spikes are very often in my home, ranging from 50V to 300V numerous times per min in worse condition  This sounds too much  but this is sad truth  So what actually happened, once a voltage of i think some 320V or so came, n although my was pc running nothing happened. (actually i dont exactly remember that my pc remained on or got shut down after that sudden spike) But when i turned my pc next time, it didnt started! When i took it to shop, the engg told me that the CPU & mobo had blewn off due to that spike  I mean how can it happen, that without affecting PSU or UPS, CPU or mobo can get affected?  Till date, it remains mystery to me.



pimpom said:


> I'm in electronics. I work at home and spend most of my time these days in custom  designing and construction. No, I haven't done any engineering course. I'm entirely self-taught. I started teaching myself electronics when I was doing B.Sc. in college and really really worked hard at it instead of just messing around at the hobbyist level.
> 
> I don't speak Hindi, so I called a friend and asked him to translate what you said. I think it means something like "Oh, I feel as if I've known (or seen) you before". Is that correct? Maybe you've read some of my previous posts and recognized the style of writing.



Nice to see ur interest, I like that  And no, my hindi sentence didnt meant that. It meant that "*it seems i've read  (or seen) that somewhere"* where *that* referred to ur technical xplanation.  I used this to say as we say this in our daily lives, while we comes across a technical thing and feel that we had studied or seen it somewhere!  i xactly got same feeling by reading ur xplanation


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## pimpom (Aug 10, 2011)

^I think this is the first time I've explained that particular fact in a forum. Maybe you read something similar in a book or a website. I composed the explanation in my own words, but since it's a well established fact, other people's explanations may look similar.

Re what happened to your PC: PSUs provide constant DC outputs (12V, 5V, etc.) by compensating for normal variations in the AC mains voltage. But some spikes can get through because they happen too fast for the regulating circuit to react in time. (A more detailed explanation would have to be very technical and involve parasitic circuit elements and non-linear equations).

This is where spike busters (or surge suppressors) come in. A good PSU has a built-in spike buster; the spike buster of a cheap PSU may be ineffective or it may have none at all. But no spike buster can suppress all spikes.

I doubt that the engineer who checked your mobo was 100% sure that the damage was done by a spike. I'm not saying that he was wrong, but he was making what is called an informed opinion or an educated guess.


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## asingh (Aug 10, 2011)

@Westom:
Really nice post.


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## kool (Aug 10, 2011)

dashing.sujay said:


> I had an intex UPS & a normal PSU that is usually bundled with cabinet. I had compaq pc and psu was factory supplied. Power  spikes are very often in my home, ranging from 50V to 300V numerous times per min in worse condition  This sounds too much  but this is sad truth  So what actually happened, once a voltage of i think some 320V or so came, n although my was pc running nothing happened. (actually i dont exactly remember that my pc remained on or got shut down after that sudden spike) But when i turned my pc next time, it didnt started! When i took it to shop, the engg told me that the CPU & mobo had blewn off due to that spike  I mean how can it happen, that without affecting PSU or UPS, CPU or mobo can get affected?  Till date, it remains mystery to me.



Dont u've have installed  MCB(Fuse)in ur home..?  



dashing.sujay said:


> You have to recharge a newly bought UPS for multiple hours before it gets fully charged! At least for 4-6 hrs i suppose. And for online buying, you can check out
> theitwares.com
> letsbuy.com
> flipkart.com
> lynx-india.com


 today i was watching movie, and just normal power cut made my pc restart and now on battery mode.  i've already charged UPS more than 12hr.  now guys tell me, it means my old intex UPS was fine, and this is must be problem of PSU.  Ok, i've already ordered Corsair cx430v2 on ebay.in will shipped within one week.  i hope after this it won't get restart.  i'm really sad,


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## westom (Aug 10, 2011)

kool said:


> Dont u've have installed  MCB(Fuse)in ur home..?
> 
> today i was watching movie, and just normal power cut made my pc restart and now on battery mode.



  Is the PC running normally on battery?  Or did the PC reset even when a UPS switched to battery?  What happens is not clear.

  Your problem could involve a bad PSU. And maybe 30 other possible defects.  A good tech starts with a multimeter and one minute of labor.  In your case, critical voltages on any one purple, red, yellow, and orange wire from the PSU are measured where each connects to the motherboard. Best measured when all peripherals are multitasked to.  All three digits contain relevant information; should be posted.

  Also useful are voltages on the green and gray wires both before and when the power switch is pressed.

  Power supply integrity is then reported without any doubts.  Numerous other power system components also can be identifies as suspect or exonerated. No reason to replace a PSU or anything else only on wild speculation. 

 A power system is more than a PSU.  Other parts determine whether a computer resets.


 Neither MCB nor fuses are intended to stop any damage for a list of reasons too many to list.  Those devices disconnect power after damage has happened.  To protect human life by averting a fire after that damage has happened.


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## kool (Aug 10, 2011)

westom said:


> Is the PC running normally on battery?  Or did the PC reset even when a UPS switched to battery?  What happens is not clear.
> 
> Your problem could involve a bad PSU. And maybe 30 other possible defects.  A good tech starts with a multimeter and one minute of labor.  In your case, critical voltages on any one purple, red, yellow, and orange wire from the PSU are measured where each connects to the motherboard. Best measured when all peripherals are multitasked to.  All three digits contain relevant information; should be posted.
> 
> ...


Ya....... PC reseted and then running on battery, i mean after power cut PC shouldn't restart on backup mode, but its restarted. :


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## westom (Aug 11, 2011)

kool said:


> i mean after power cut PC shouldn't restart on backup mode, but its restarted.


  I don't know what a "PC restarted in  backup mode" means.  PC does not have a 'backup mode'.  Something completely different - "battery backup mode" - is one mode of UPS operation.  Below assumes that is what you meant.

  When a UPS decided to switch to "battery backup mode", then that UPS outputs no power for a short period.  Read manufacturer specs for that period of no power.  Time that a relay needs to switch from AC mains to the battery.

   Due to how power supplies are designed, a period of no power means a computer's power supply still output rock solid DC voltages to motherboard semiconductors.  Specification numbers for a UPS and for a computer supply are provided by better manufacturers who choose to be more honest. Be suspicious of any manufacturer who is not providing important numbers including that one.

  For example, a UPS may output no power for 10 milliseconds.  No problem.  Because all computer supplies should output uninterrupted power when no incoming AC electricity exists for at least 17 milliseconds.  Often much longer.

  So, is a power supply defective or is the UPS defective?  Unfortunately, laymen do not have tools to answer that definitively.   Best you can do is plug an incandescent bulb (maybe 60 watts) into that UPS.  When the UPS power cord is yanked from a wall receptacle (while powering both a computer and bulb), does that bulb have a noticeable flicker?  If yes, the UPS is probably switching much too slowly.

 My bet is a defective UPS that either takes too long to switchover (would cause bulb flicker).  Or that creates power that initially confuses power factor circuits inside the supply.  Both are only speculation based in what I believe you have posted and in how electronics work.


  And finally, did AC electric cause other incandescent bulbs to flicker exactly when the UPS switched to battery backup mode?  A previous post implied that.  But did not state bluntly enough that both occur simultaneously.  That detail is important for further useful answers.


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## dashing.sujay (Aug 11, 2011)

westom said:


> 'Dirty' is a layman's term for those and many other anomalies including power factor, harmonics, frequency variation, floating ground, etc.
> 
> 'Dirtiest' of those waveforms is ideal power to all electronics.  Some UPSes output power with spikes and other 'undesirable' waveforms that are even worse.  Due to the so many functions found in every power supply, those anomalies are made irrelevant.
> 
> ...



 i feel i'm learning electronics/electrical engg here : btw really nice xplanation 


pimpom said:


> ^
> Re what happened to your PC: PSUs provide constant DC outputs (12V, 5V, etc.) by compensating for normal variations in the AC mains voltage. But some spikes can get through because they happen too fast for the regulating circuit to react in time. *(A more detailed explanation would have to be very technical and involve parasitic circuit elements and non-linear equations).*
> 
> This is where spike busters (or surge suppressors) come in. A good PSU has a built-in spike buster; the spike buster of a cheap PSU may be ineffective or it may have none at all. But no spike buster can suppress all spikes.
> ...



can u please xplain that *more detailed technical xplanation* here ? And I've one  more question, that supposing some spikes are too fast to be handled by the regulating circuit to react in time, and ultimately affecting internal components, but aren't they supposed to affect/damage PSU/UPS? 



asingh said:


> @Westom:
> Really nice post.






kool said:


> Dont u've have installed  MCB(Fuse)in ur home..?
> 
> today i was watching movie, and just normal power cut made my pc restart and now on battery mode.  i've already charged UPS more than 12hr.  now guys tell me, it means my old intex UPS was fine, and this is must be problem of PSU.  Ok, i've already ordered Corsair cx430v2 on ebay.in will shipped within one week.  i hope after this it won't get restart.  i'm really sad,



When this incident happened, I didnt even knew what an *MCB* was ? I guess if it'd have been there, then may be the accident wouldn't had happened   

Regarding ur PC restart, try running UPS in backup mode, without supplying electricity to UPS. See if it gives expected backup, also trying running other appliances, or a CFL bulb, to test if the UPS is running fine. The UPS should be able to light the bulb for at least 45 mins without any problems, i suppose.
Rest xplanation you must be getting from *too technical* answers from @westom or a lil simple one's from pimpom 



westom said:


> Is the PC running normally on battery?  Or did the PC reset even when a UPS switched to battery?  What happens is not clear.
> 
> Your problem could involve a bad PSU. And maybe 30 other possible defects.  A good tech starts with a multimeter and one minute of labor.  In your case, critical voltages on any one purple, red, yellow, and orange wire from the PSU are measured where each connects to the motherboard. Best measured when all peripherals are multitasked to.  All three digits contain relevant information; should be posted.
> 
> ...







westom said:


> I don't know what a "PC restarted in  backup mode" means.  PC does not have a 'backup mode'.  Something completely different - "battery backup mode" - is one mode of UPS operation.  Below assumes that is what you meant.
> 
> When a UPS decided to switch to "battery backup mode", then that UPS outputs no power for a short period.  Read manufacturer specs for that period of no power.  Time that a relay needs to switch from AC mains to the battery.
> 
> ...


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## pimpom (Aug 11, 2011)

dashing.sujay said:


> can u please xplain that *more detailed technical xplanation* here ? And I've one  more question, that supposing some spikes are too fast to be handled by the regulating circuit to react in time, and ultimately affecting internal components, but aren't they supposed to affect/damage PSU/UPS?



Any spike will have _some_ effect, but whether the effect is noticeable or damaging depends on many factors. It's not possible to make a blanket statement in that respect.

Electrical and electronic components - transistors, ICs, inductors, capacitors, etc. etc. - have their main functions, but they are all imperfect and such imperfections often cause problems in designing and operation. For example, a perfect inductor (coil) lets DC current  pass through it without any hindrance, but it impedes the passage of AC. The higher the frequency of the AC, the more difficult it is to pass through the coil. This property is used to block AC where it is not wanted.

The function of a capacitor is just the opposite. It blocks DC and allows AC to pass through. The higher the AC frequency, the more easily it passes through. This property is used to block DC and let AC pass through.

So far so good. The problem is that a practical coil is never a pure inductor, and a practical capacitor is never pure capacitance.

A practical inductor always has a small capacitance in parallel with it (again this is a simplification; the details are much more complex). While the inductive property tries to block AC, the parasitic capacitance lets it through. The higher the frequency, the more easily it bypasses the inductor via the capacitance.

A voltage spike is a short burst of high frequency AC. Now do you begin to see the problem? The faster the spike, the more easily it goes through via the parasitic capacitance. Under certain circumstances, enough of the spike energy passes through to cause crashes or even damage.

*img163.imageshack.us/img163/9228/parasiticcapacitance.png

Such parasitic elements exist in *all* electrical components, not just coils/inductors, making them behave differently from what would be expected from basic principles. It makes designing practical circuits much more difficult than as presented in college text books.

That's still a much simplified explanation. The topic could be expanded fill a book, but I hope the short description gives you some idea of the issues involved.


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## kool (Aug 11, 2011)

westom said:


> I don't know what a "PC restarted in  backup mode" means.  PC does not have a 'backup mode'.  Something completely different - "battery backup mode" - is one mode of UPS operation.  Below assumes that is what you meant.
> 
> When a UPS decided to switch to "battery backup mode", then that UPS outputs no power for a short period.  Read manufacturer specs for that period of no power.  Time that a relay needs to switch from AC mains to the battery.
> 
> ...



OK, i got I'm uploading 3 videos: 
1)60W bulb test on battery mode w/o Power and with Power 
*www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5-6rIrgxd4

2)Voltage checkup via stabilizer plugged in UPS (With main power to UPS) 
*www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd0SJKfZ6Ec

3)Voltage checkup via stabilizer plugged in UPS (w/o main power to UPS) 

*www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkLxLSKSdE8

I hope this will make u more clear, during 60w bulb test..yes its flickered lil bit, i mean during battery/backup mode. It slightly increased. Just check the videos here... 


_ by the way today i just switched on/off from socket and PC restarted 3 times, and sometime it dont restart just my PC keep running on battery/backup mode. _


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## dashing.sujay (Aug 11, 2011)

pimpom said:


> Any spike will have _some_ effect, but whether the effect is noticeable or damaging depends on many factors. It's not possible to make a blanket statement in that respect.
> 
> Electrical and electronic components - transistors, ICs, inductors, capacitors, etc. etc. - have their main functions, but they are all imperfect and such imperfections often cause problems in designing and operation. For example, a perfect inductor (coil) lets DC current  pass through it without any hindrance, but it impedes the passage of AC. The higher the frequency of the AC, the more difficult it is to pass through the coil. This property is used to block AC where it is not wanted.
> 
> ...



Hmm, more clear now  But a silly question i suppose, I think ur this xplanation doesn't xplains why the spikes didn't affected my PSU/UPS? Or i couldn't extract the anwser from it


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## kool (Aug 11, 2011)

dashing.sujay said:


> Hmm, more clear now  But a silly question i suppose, I think ur this xplanation doesn't xplains why the spikes didn't affected my PSU/UPS? Or i couldn't extract the anwser from it



hey check video that i've uploaded. And give me the answer.


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## pimpom (Aug 11, 2011)

dashing.sujay said:


> Hmm, more clear now  But a silly question i suppose, I think ur this xplanation doesn't xplains why the spikes didn't affected my PSU/UPS? Or i couldn't extract the anwser from it



The short answer is that a motherboard has many more sensitive parts that are easily damaged by high voltage than a PSU or UPS.

Different products and different parts of the same system are not equally sensitive to power supply faults, including spikes. For example, motherboards use CMOS devices which are fast, compact and easy to make in large quantities. But they have a poor tolerance for excessive voltages.

This is particulalry true for advanced components in which high speed and compact size require microscopically thin layers of materials. Even moderately high voltages can punch through such thin layers and cause damage. The critical voltage level is different for different parts of the system but is generally in the range from a few volts to some tens of volts for devices like a CPU, chipset, etc.

On the other hand, while a PSU or UPS may also use CMOS devices, such devices are simpler and can be built to withstand higher voltage surges.

In any case, whether it's a UPS, PSU or a motherboard, CPU, HDD, RAM, etc., they are not always damaged by a voltage surge. To cause damage, the surge must pass through the more sensitive sections and must be high enough to exceed the danger level for that section.

Think of it this way: If someone shoots a gun at your house, the bullet may pass through an open window without causing any damage. It may hit a brick wall and may be stopped flat. Or it could hit your TV and break it, or even hit you. If it's a rifle bullet (high energy spike), it is more likely to cause damage than an air gun pellet (low energy spike).


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## dashing.sujay (Aug 11, 2011)

westom said:


> Power from a UPS in battery backup mode can be so 'dirty' as to potentially harm small electric motors and power strip protectors.  That same power is ideal for all electronics.  Due to protection standard in electronics, some of the 'dirtiest' power comes from a UPS in battery backup mode.  And causes no electronics damage.
> 
> *CPU's have even more layers of protection.  Rarely do any external transients damage a CPU.  The CPU even has another power supply making it that much more robust.  Most CPU failures are due to manufacturing defects or a mistake by another frequent source of damage - human hands.*



What you have to say about the quote below by pimpom? It cuts ur above quote,i.e. CPU protection thing.



pimpom said:


> This is particulalry true for advanced components in which high speed and compact size require microscopically thin layers of materials. Even moderately high voltages can punch through such thin layers and cause damage. The critical voltage level is different for different parts of the system but is generally in the range from a few volts to some tens of volts for devices like a CPU, chipset, etc.


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## westom (Aug 11, 2011)

dashing.sujay said:


> What you have to say about the quote below by pimpom? It cuts ur above quote,i.e. CPU protection thing.



  To create 3 or 5 volts, first a supply filters AC mains. Then converts AC to DC.  Then increases that voltage to something well above 300 volts.  Then more filters.  Then converts that high voltage to high voltage radio waves - spikes sharper than anything typically seen on AC mains.  Then galvanic isolation ...  layers and layers of protection.  After making AC power into something far more 'dirty', then a power supply converts that dirtier power into something 'cleanest'.  Converting from 'dirtiest' to 'cleanest' means anomalies on AC mains are made irrelevant.  A power supply must suffer thousands of volt spikes on AC mains without causing any effect on its low voltage DC outputs.

  Power supplies are amazing. Must do more functions that most would not even think about.  And must do all that for almost no money. Described are those layers in numbers.  To create stable low voltages, power supplies first create even higher voltage spikes. 

  Pimpon has described one example of passive circuits found in multiple layers inside all supplies.  Layers separated by active circuits that do further functions.

  Then another power supply only for the CPU does all this all over again. Making the CPU one of the most resilient items inside a computer - as defined previously.

 More resiliency.  To have damage, means current must be incoming from one direction.  And outgoing on another.  CPU has an incoming path and no outgoing path.  Without both paths, then no current to do damage. As pimpon says, "To cause damage, the surge must pass through the more sensitive sections".  That means separate incoming and outgoing paths must always exist to have damage.  Electricity does not enter on one path, do damage and stop.   Another reason why CPUs are even that much more resilient.  And a problem.  Most laymen even forget that 'incoming and outgoing' rule that was taught in elementary school science.

  Pimpon has described subjectively how passive circuits work.  Has introduced some concepts that must become obvious knowledge to make any technical conclusions.  To make conclusions, everything also must be quantified by numbers. Which means quoting specifications by reams to be making judgments. (If anything does not provide a long list of specs, then suspect the worst - a scam.)  Any conclusion made from subjective facts implies one all but wants to be scammed.

  Provided are hard facts even from Intel's ATX Standards.  1000 volt spikes on AC mains must be made irrelevant by all computer power supplies.  'Dirtiest' power from a UPS is also ideal power for all electronics.  Protection so robust that motherboard damage usually means a transient had to bypass a power supply.  That, BTW, is why a power strip protector too close to electronics and too far from earth ground can even make computer damage easier.


  I am confused by kool's videos that only show a mechanical meter. If grasping numbers, then that meter obviously would not report relevant facts.   Defined were events that occur in milliseconds.  Events that would not move any mechanical meter.  Meter readings, that summarize voltages averaged over a second,  say nothing useful on millisecond events that might cause his computer lockup.  The video camera should have been focused only on the light bulb.  Because the test is about whether the light bulb flickers for tens of milliseconds.  Because a layman typically has no other tool capable of quantifying (measuring) an anomaly that short.

  Conclusions always mean answers quantified in numbers.  Numbers even say why low voltage power supplies make thousand of volt sharp spikes irrelevant.  But numbers from that video recorded meter don't say anything relevant to his computer lockups.

  One final point.  If any paragraph in this or previous posts is new, then it will not be understood without at least three rereads.  I need at least three rereads on anything new to comprehend it.  Many above paragraphs are chock full of information.  Require multiple rereads to grasp everything summarized.


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## kool (Aug 11, 2011)

westom said:


> I am confused by kool's videos that only show a mechanical meter. If grasping numbers, then that meter obviously would not report relevant facts. Defined were events that occur in milliseconds. Events that would not move any mechanical meter. Meter readings, that summarize voltages averaged over a second, say nothing useful on millisecond events that might cause his computer lockup. The video camera should have been focused only on the light bulb. Because the test is about whether the light bulb flickers for tens of milliseconds. Because a layman typically has no other tool capable of quantifying (measuring) an anomaly that short.




Ya bulb flickers very lil bit. already old this, In battery/backup mode it slightly increase its light,


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## westom (Aug 11, 2011)

kool said:


> Ya bulb flickers very lil bit. already old this, In battery/backup mode it slightly increase its light,


  Bulb can significantly increase intensity.  And that is a near zero voltage change to all electronics.  Bulb can dim to 50% intensity.  And that is a near zero voltage change to all electronics.  (May be harmful to motorized appliances but is ideal for all electronics.)

  If voltage drops well below that '50% intensity' voltage for hundreds of milliseconds, then the computer may crash.  The flicker might that bulb dropping to 10% intensity for over 100 milliseconds.  That implies the UPS is defective.  That implies, for example, that its relay is taking too long to switch to battery backup mode.

  To say definitively (and that means numbers) requires an oscilloscope (ie what pimpon's pictures show).  You do not have anything that can measure that type of anomaly.  But an incandescent bulb flickering when the UPS switches into or out of battery backup mode implies (does not say definitively; only implies) a completely defective UPS.  A switchover (the period when no AC power is output by a UPS) should be so quick (milliseconds) that the bulb does not flicker.


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## kool (Aug 11, 2011)

are all UPS defective? Same result with Intex also. Now m just waiting for my Corsair psu which is  shipped yesterday by ebay.in and after that if gonna happen anything wrong, i'm going to sue all UPS company. I'm really frustrated nw. Not able to use my pc more than 40min. Will send legal notice to both apc and intex. My dad is lawyer in SC.


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## westom (Aug 11, 2011)

kool said:


> are all UPS defective? Same result with Intex also.


  You are again concluding without numbers.  Claims without numbers should be rejected or ignored immediately.  Too subjective.

  Defined were numbers.  Power supply will state how long it operates without any input power.  Supplies that do not are often dumped into the market by Asian manufacturers who are selling to computer assemblers.  People often with little technical knowledge and who routinely ignore relevant numbers.

  All supplies should work even longer than the spec numbers.  A UPS must switchover without causing a noticeable bulb flicker.  Without causing a short 'no power' blackout.  But if either manufacturer does not provide numbers in tech specs, then failure is directly traceable to the consumer.

  If it does not come with a long list of numeric specs, then you should be rejecting it immediately. 97% of consumers have no idea what those numbers mean.  No numbers means the 1% who know can say nothing.  Leaves you setup to be scammed.  Only way the informed 1% can warn you is if the product comes with lots of spec numbers.

  What is the switchover time for your UPS?  You posted no numbers because, as a layman, you have no equipment to measure.  And you did not post manufacturer spec numbers.   So every answer is only a best guess.  Your replies are only as useful as the facts (numbers) that you provide.

  Learn why the word 'definitive' is so important.  'Definitive' starts with numbers - ie switchover time.  To avoid problems, always demand numbers.  A too short spec sheet implies the worst - even if a majority recommend that product.

Reason for your problems are defined.  Why would you sue when you did not even bother to do what every informed consumer must do?  First get the numbers.


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## avichandana20000 (Aug 11, 2011)

@ kool what is the manufacturing date of your UPS?

Your instance is not enough to sue APC as many of us are using this Brand UPS without any problem. I have  done the bulb tst. but it does not flicker. The battery may be at its end of life. So check the manufacturing date fast.(after 20 shop hopping u found that. so it is not very regular product at your place. Stock may be old.) 

again it is a wild guess.

also register your product over the net and screw them up regarding your problem It is having onsite warranty.

so sue them if they do not agree to come at your place.

*www.theitbazaar.com/store/our-shop...s&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=534&vmcchk=1


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## kool (Aug 11, 2011)

westom said:


> You are again concluding without numbers.  Claims without numbers should be rejected or ignored immediately.  Too subjective.
> 
> Defined were numbers.  Power supply will state how long it operates without any input power.  Supplies that do not are often dumped into the market by Asian manufacturers who are selling to computer assemblers.  People often with little technical knowledge and who routinely ignore relevant numbers.
> 
> ...



What no. u r talking about? How to find that?

 And tell me one thing How a non-technical person will understand all these while buying UPS, PSU, PC, LAPTOP etc. Why they never put these no. in any advertisement or in any shop, they provide only little information with price tag.



avichandana20000 said:


> @ kool what is the manufacturing date of your UPS?
> 
> Your instance is not enough to sue APC as many of us are using this Brand UPS without any problem. I have  done the bulb tst. but it does not flicker. The battery may be at its end of life. So check the manufacturing date fast.(after 20 shop hopping u found that. so it is not very regular product at your place. Stock may be old.)
> 
> ...



MFG DATE: January 2011. I've bought from a very big store where it sells only Dell laptop.


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## westom (Aug 11, 2011)

kool said:


> How a non-technical person will understand all these while buying UPS, PSU, PC, LAPTOP etc.


  That answer was posted. 


> If it does not come with a long list of numeric specs, then you should be rejecting it immediately. 97% of consumers have no idea what those numbers mean. No numbers means the 1% who know can say nothing. Leaves you setup to be scammed. Only way the informed 1% can warn you is if the product comes with lots of spec numbers.


Why are you shopping in stores that sell products without spec numbers?  Therein lies a damning question.

  In this case, the more honest manufacturer will provide a number for the switchover time that is typically less than 13 milliseconds.  If not, then assume numbers are not provided because it does not switchover fast enough.  More honest manufacturers provide spec numbers.

  Meanwhile, from the only crude experiment possible, that UPS is switching over so poorly as to flicker an incandescent bulb.  That (as best I can tell from your posts) is also when a computer crashes.  When the UPS is doing something it should not be doing, then the computer crashes.  Is that a coincidence?  Maybe.


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## avichandana20000 (Aug 11, 2011)

kool said:


> MFG DATE: January 2011. I've bought from a very big store where it sells only Dell laptop.



So call them immediately to visit your place stating the problem simple saying that your PC is getting restarted during power fluctuations and power cut.

is there any chance that you can test this ups in your friend's system?


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## kool (Aug 11, 2011)

avichandana20000 said:


> So call them immediately to visit your place stating the problem simple saying that your PC is getting restarted during power fluctuations and power cut.
> 
> is there any chance that you can test this ups in your friend's system?



OK, i'll test on my friend's PC.  BTW, m just waiting for my PSU. after that they gonna have to pay, if it restarts again.

_ Recently i received my security money of Rs.20,000 from my college, within 10days after leaving college(legal notice). and other guys are still waiting for 6 month. Nokia gave me new cellphone, because current handset was not working, and all the service center give only one excuse  "circuit may be shorted due to one drop of water". These peoples just make business, but dont care for quality and service_.


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## avichandana20000 (Aug 11, 2011)

kool said:


> OK, i'll test on my friend's PC.  BTW, m just waiting for my PSU. after that they gonna have to pay, if it restarts again.
> 
> _ Recently i received my security money of Rs.20,000 from my college, within 10days after leaving college(legal notice). and other guys are still waiting for 6 month. Nokia gave me new cellphone, because current handset was not working, and all the service center give only one excuse  "circuit may be shorted due to one drop of water". These peoples just make business, but dont care for quality and service_.



some one like u is very much needed for KOLKATA RASHI PERIPHERALS to protect commom people interest.


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## kool (Aug 11, 2011)

avichandana20000 said:


> some one like u is very much needed for KOLKATA RASHI PERIPHERALS to protect commom people interest.


 whats dat?


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## dashing.sujay (Aug 12, 2011)

westom said:


> To create 3 or 5 volts, first a supply filters AC mains. Then converts AC to DC.  Then increases that voltage to something well above 300 volts.  Then more filters.  Then converts that high voltage to high voltage radio waves - spikes sharper than anything typically seen on AC mains.  Then galvanic isolation ...  layers and layers of protection.  After making AC power into something far more 'dirty', then a power supply converts that dirtier power into something 'cleanest'.  Converting from 'dirtiest' to 'cleanest' means anomalies on AC mains are made irrelevant.  A power supply must suffer thousands of volt spikes on AC mains without causing any effect on its low voltage DC outputs.
> 
> Power supplies are amazing. Must do more functions that most would not even think about.  And must do all that for almost no money. Described are those layers in numbers.  To create stable low voltages, power supplies first create even higher voltage spikes.
> 
> ...



Ok, thnx for such a wonderful explanation. Further doubts-

1)If a power supply is so robust that it can suffer 1000's of volt spikes on AC mains without causing any effect on its low voltage DC outputs, then why can't it is made such that to protect the electronic equipments attached ot it (here CPU, mobo) ? Is it technically very tough or impossible ? I mean it should also act as an spike buster, and if any spike comes having intensity larger than power supply's capacity to handle, then PSU should cut the line like a fuse or get itself damaged.!!

2) What is this funda of "another power supply" for CPU ? never heard of it 

3)And i have too forgotten "incoming andoutgoing" rule  It is -ve and +ve striking against each other ? pls xplain.

4)Dirtiest' power from a UPS is also ideal power for all electronics, but isn't it applicable when a power supply is  used alongwith them to provide "cleaner" low voltage current as required by the electronics ? If its so, every device/machine out there must be equipped with an internal power supply ?

5)"That, BTW, is why a power strip protector too close to electronics and too far from earth ground can even make computer damage easier." Didn't got it.
 And yeah i had to read multiple times to understand and summarize all the points 



kool said:


> What no. u r talking about? How to find that?
> 
> And tell me one thing How a non-technical person will understand all these while buying UPS, PSU, PC, LAPTOP etc. Why they never put these no. in any advertisement or in any shop, they provide only little information with price tag.



He's talking about internal spec nos, such as switch time, operating voltage, frequency, and blah blah. find them in the mannual provided.
A non-technical person will either learn like us  or take help of technical persons like *pimpom & westom*  or _semi technical persons like us_  



kool said:


> Recently i received my security money of Rs.20,000 from my college, within 10days after leaving college(legal notice). and other guys are still waiting for 6 month. Nokia gave me new cellphone, because current handset was not working, and all the service center give only one excuse  "circuit may be shorted due to one drop of water". These peoples just make business, but dont care for quality and service[/I].



Power of DAD   
And i've heard for the first time that nokia has replaced a faulty set with a new one, lucky U 
BTW in which college are and doing .. ?


avichandana20000 said:


> some one like u is very much needed for KOLKATA RASHI PERIPHERALS to protect commom people interest.



 



kool said:


> whats dat?



RASHI PERIPHERALS is a famous but "badly reputed" tech store for its after sales service in kolkata, and it doesnt listens to ppl's problems, unless ppl like you show them the power of *their DAD*   SC power


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## westom (Aug 12, 2011)

dashing.sujay said:


> 1)If a power supply is so robust that it can suffer 1000's of volt spikes on AC mains without causing any effect on its low voltage DC outputs, then why can't it is made such that to protect the electronic equipments attached ot it (here CPU, mobo) ? … I mean it should also act as an spike buster, and if any spike comes having intensity larger than power supply's capacity to handle, then PSU should cut the line like a fuse or get itself damaged.!!


  This and question five were answered previously.  For example, let's assume a 6000 volt surge approaches the computer and protector on the black hot wire.  The adjacent protector simply connects that surge to all other wires.  For example, 6000 volts on the black wire.  5,500 volts on the white and green wire.  Now those 5,500 volts are connected directly to the motherboard.  Completely bypass protection inside the PSU.

  Anything that would protect by going open circuit does no protection.  Again, voltage simply increases to blow through that open gap – that cannot open fast enough.  Fuses and switches takes tens of milliseconds (or longer) to open.  A surge is done in microseconds.

  We saw ‘adjacent protector’ damage when a few power strip protectors earthed a surge through a network of powered off computers.   We literally traced that surge by replacing each damaged semiconductor.  Restored all computers.  Surge found earth ground via two computers.  Into a third computer.  And out to earth destructively via that third computer's modem and telephone line.  Protectors bypassed protection inside those computer’s PSUs.

  Once inside, a surge will increase voltage as necessary to blow through anything that might stop it.  IOW a surge permitted inside the building will increase voltage as necessary to overwhelm superior protection already inside appliances.  Generally, that means a surge finds other paths rather than blow through better protection inside a PSU.

  Power supplies are full of safety features.  For example, short all PSU outputs together and power on that supply.  A short circuit must cause no damage to any PSU.  In fact, Intel even says how thick that shorting wire must be.  Because no power supply can be harmed by a short circuit or its load.  Just another of so many functions inside every supply.

  Power supplies contain separate circuits that shorts should its voltage become too high.  Often called an overvoltage crowbar.  Intel ATX specs even state what a maximum voltages can be.  Ie 5 volts will be shorted out before and therefore never exceed 6.5 volts.  Well below a semiconductor's maximum 7 volts.  Another example of why a supply does not cause motherboard damage.

   Question two: a CPU's power supply has torroids and electrolytic capacitors adjacent to the CPU.  The original Pentium required this supply to provide current from less than 1 amp to tens of amps in only microseconds.  That requirement could only be met by a dedicated power supply adjacent to the CPU.  All Pentiums have a dedicated and adjacent power supply.

  Q three:  -Ve and +Ve means a same destructive current is on both wires.  To appreciate this means learning about something beyond layman's knowledge - longitudinal and normal mode currents.  For example, a wire could carry different signals on the same wire.  The receiver is designed to decode either one or the other.  Two different electrical currents on the same wire.  You are thinking in terms of one type.  Destructive surges are the other.

  Another example is in the topmost example.  Voltage between a black and white AC wires is only 500 volts.  Meanwhile a 6000 or 5500 volt transient is also pushing through the computer.

 Q four: every electronic device contains a power supply.  For example, routers typically have a power supply inside the wall wart.  And another chip chip power supply inside the router.  All electronics have a power supply so that serious variations of AC mains cause no change to internal DC voltages. All portable electronics should have a universal supply so that any AC voltage from 85 to 265 VAC is normal power.


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## kool (Aug 12, 2011)

westom said:


> This and question five were answered previously.  For example, let's assume a 6000 volt surge approaches the computer and protector on the black hot wire.  The adjacent protector simply connects that surge to all other wires.  For example, 6000 volts on the black wire.  5,500 volts on the white and green wire.  Now those 5,500 volts are connected directly to the motherboard.  Completely bypass protection inside the PSU.
> 
> Anything that would protect by going open circuit does no protection.  Again, voltage simply increases to blow through that open gap – that cannot open fast enough.  Fuses and switches takes tens of milliseconds (or longer) to open.  A surge is done in microseconds.
> 
> ...



wow! Hats off to you man! By d way thank god i didn't opt for electrical or electronics engineering.


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## dashing.sujay (Aug 12, 2011)

westom said:


> This and question five were answered previously.  For example, let's assume a 6000 volt surge approaches the computer and protector on the black hot wire.  The adjacent protector simply connects that surge to all other wires.  For example, 6000 volts on the black wire.  5,500 volts on the white and green wire.  Now those 5,500 volts are connected directly to the motherboard.  Completely bypass protection inside the PSU.
> 
> Anything that would protect by going open circuit does no protection.  Again, voltage simply increases to blow through that open gap – that cannot open fast enough.  Fuses and switches takes tens of milliseconds (or longer) to open.  A surge is done in microseconds.
> 
> ...



thnx a ton, now i suppose i got a good understanding of power supplies


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## kool (Aug 12, 2011)

Guys.... tomorrow I'll get my PSU.

 By the way today i removed my GFX card, and it didnt restart after that, i checked by pressing ON/OFF main switch. Its working fine..  Now what i'll do with my old Intex UPS. I think its working fine, last year i bought for Rs.1300, still 1 year warranty left. Should i sell to any cyber cafe? Or is there any use of that for mobile charging, or LED bulb lightining for my village where electric supply comes for 3-4 hours only in a day.


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## dashing.sujay (Aug 13, 2011)

kool said:


> Guys.... tomorrow I'll get my PSU.
> 
> By the way today i removed my GFX card, and it didnt restart after that, i checked by pressing ON/OFF main switch. Its working fine..  Now what i'll do with my old Intex UPS. I think its working fine, last year i bought for Rs.1300, still 1 year warranty left. Should i sell to any cyber cafe? Or is there any use of that for mobile charging, or LED bulb lightining for my village where electric supply comes for 3-4 hours only in a day.



Post pics of ur PSU when u get it  And its now clear that ur PSU was culprit,i.e. not able to take full load of system, thats why its working fine after removing gfx card. And you better sell the UPS as i feel you should.


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## kool (Aug 13, 2011)

dashing.sujay said:


> Post pics of ur PSU when u get it  And its now clear that ur PSU was culprit,i.e. not able to take full load of system, thats why its working fine after removing gfx card. And you better sell the UPS as i feel you should.



w/o gfx restarted once just nw.


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## dashing.sujay (Aug 13, 2011)

kool said:


> w/o gfx restarted once just nw.



 maamla kuch gadbad lagta hai


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## westom (Aug 13, 2011)

kool said:


> w/o gfx restarted once just nw.


If a supply was undersized, that problem could have been discovered months ago using a minute of labor and a multimeter.

  Normal is for an undersized supply to still boot and run a computer.  Also normal is for a perfectly good supply and still have these symptoms.  Swapping parts or making conclusions without numbers is how confusion is created.

  Theory was that one change eliminated a problem.  Then that proves that 'change' fixed a problem.  Unfortunately, removing the gfx caused numerous changes.  Or may have only cured a symptom. If the PSU was undersized (or had other problems), then a multimeter would have identified it without confusion or doubt.  Measuring the new supply when installed would confirm a problem was actually solved.

  Meanwhile another suspected problem was identified.  A UPS caused an incandescent bulb to flicker when switching to/from battery backup mode.  Is that causing CPU crashes?  Unknown. But a problem has been identified.

  Now a combination of a marginally undersized supply combined with that UPS defect might be sufficient to cause a computer crash.  Does not matter.  Identify the problems.  Solve defects regardless of whether a CPU crash is eliminated.  That means not replacing a PSU if numbers exonerate that original PSU as defective.  Or use numbers to confirm a new PSU causes some type of improvement.  Just because a PSU is replaced says nothing useful.  The replacement should eliminate an observable problem.  That means numbers.


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## d6bmg (Aug 13, 2011)

kool said:


> w/o gfx restarted once just nw.



Get a new PSU asap.


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## kool (Aug 14, 2011)

d6bmg said:


> Get a new PSU asap.


 buddy i'm just waiting for DTDC, i think idiots are celebrating holiday for_ Rakhi(sat), sunday, independence day(monday)._ I think nw i'll get it on Tuesday.  by the way till nw its restarted only once.


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## avichandana20000 (Aug 14, 2011)

^^ have u tested your UPS in any other system?


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## kool (Aug 16, 2011)

Thnx everybody... 
Thanx to all forum members who helped me..  I received my Corsair PSU finally, and i tried all the way giving Uninterrupted Power by switching off main power, main fuse, inverter etc. And guess what..* PC didn't restart. yo yo yo yo.......  :0  * I'm so happy. You guys are so intelligent & experienced. A very big thanks to *Sujoy*, avichandana, *westom,* *pimpom, megamind,* tenida, tkin

U guys are so great.............

*school.discoveryeducation.com/clipart/images/thanks.gif


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## MegaMind (Aug 16, 2011)

Good to know...


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## kool (Sep 8, 2011)

MegaMind said:


> Good to know...



Nw there is other problem has started. in low voltage <180v it starts beeping, and above 230< also.  when i use stabilizer with it, it works good, but sudden high & low voltage makes UPS+PC shut down with continuous beeeeeep.

any solution for this?


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## MegaMind (Sep 9, 2011)

kool said:


> Nw there is other problem has started. in low voltage <180v it starts beeping, and above 230< also.  when i use stabilizer with it, it works good, but sudden high & low voltage makes UPS+PC shut down with continuous beeeeeep.
> 
> any solution for this?


This may help...
Check ur apc UPS manual and set the mode to single beep...


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## dashing.sujay (Sep 9, 2011)

kool said:


> Thnx everybody...
> Thanx to all forum members who helped me..  I received my Corsair PSU finally, and i tried all the way giving Uninterrupted Power by switching off main power, main fuse, inverter etc. And guess what..* PC didn't restart. yo yo yo yo.......  :0  * I'm so happy. You guys are so intelligent & experienced. A very big thanks to *Sujoy*, avichandana, *westom,* *pimpom, megamind,* tenida, tkin
> 
> U guys are so great.............
> ...



Anytime bro  btw my name is *Sujay* not _Sujoy_!! 



kool said:


> Nw there is other problem has started. in low voltage <180v it starts beeping, and above 230< also.  when i use stabilizer with it, it works good, but sudden high & low voltage makes UPS+PC shut down with continuous beeeeeep.
> 
> any solution for this?



Well UPS always beeps when it recieves voltage out of input range, here 160-280 (as quoted by APC), switching to  battery mode. And when low voltage/high voltage continues for long time, UPS runs consistently on battery/switches constantly. So after a point when it cant take load, system shut downs. Stabilizer just does the work of providing input voltage in the required range by UPS.
See this for further info.

*i187.photobucket.com/albums/x276/sujaykirti/ups1.jpg


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## bud-- (Dec 11, 2011)

The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at:
*www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf
- How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and communication circuits published by the IEEE in 2005 .
And also:
*www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf
- NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the appliances in your home published by the US National Institute of Standards and Technology in 2001

The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The NIST guide is aimed at the general public



westom said:


> This and question five were answered previously.  For example, let's assume a 6000 volt surge approaches the computer and protector on the black hot wire.  The adjacent protector simply connects that surge to all other wires.  For example, 6000 volts on the black wire.  5,500 volts on the white and green wire.  Now those 5,500 volts are connected directly to the motherboard.  Completely bypass protection inside the PSU.



Not hardly.

Competently designed plug-in protectors have voltage limiting elements from H-N, H-G, N-G.
The black wire supplies the surge to the computer. The white and green wire 'sink' the surge. The voltage at the protector is something like 2,000V with respect to the ground at the power service. This is covered by "ground potential rise" starting page 30 of the IEEE surge guide. 

A computer may have a voltage limiter H-N. That would put the voltage at the computer at about 3,000V with respect to the ground at the power service.

Starting page 30 also explains how plug-in protectors work. They work primarily by limiting the voltage on all wires (power and signal) to the ground at the protector. The voltage between the wires going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment.



westom said:


> We saw ‘adjacent protector’ damage when a few power strip protectors earthed a surge through a network of powered off computers.   We literally traced that surge by replacing each damaged semiconductor.  Restored all computers.  Surge found earth ground via two computers.  Into a third computer.  And out to earth destructively via that third computer's modem and telephone line.  Protectors bypassed protection inside those computer’s PSUs.



Any competent manufacturer will tell you the plug in protectors were wired incorrectly. So do the IEEE and NIST surge guides. 

All interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same plug-in protector. External connections, like phone and cable, also need to go through the protector. Connecting all wiring through the protector prevents damaging voltages between power and signal wires. 

The NIST surge guide suggests most equipment damage is from high voltage between power and phone/cable/... wires.



westom said:


> Once inside, a surge will increase voltage as necessary to blow through anything that might stop it.  IOW a surge permitted inside the building will increase voltage as necessary to overwhelm superior protection already inside appliances.  Generally, that means a surge finds other paths rather than blow through better protection inside a PSU.



The voltage inside a building is limited by arc-over at the service. In the US arc-over from service busbars to the enclosure occurs at about 6,000V. After the arc is established the voltage is hundreds of volts. (Since the enclosure is connected to the earthing system this dumps most of the surge energy to earth.)

Protectors do not work by "stopping".

Computers do not have "better protection" than plug-in protectors.

Contrary to westom's opinion, both the IEEE and NIST surge guides say plug-in protectors are effective. UPSs likely have the same protection as plug-in protectors, but higher ratings are more readily available in plug-in protectors.


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## manimaranvel (Apr 26, 2017)

APC 500VA also has the same problem so don't buy it.


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