# Why Microsoft should fear Apple  -Scot Finnie



## aryayush (Mar 30, 2007)

*Opinion: Why Microsoft should fear Apple*
_By_ Scot Finnie, Computerworld

_Editor’s Note: This story is reprinted from_ Computerworld. _For more Mac coverage, visit_ Computerworld’s Macintosh Knowledge Center.

Should Microsoft fear Apple’s Macintosh? *Maybe not quaking-in-your-boots scared, mind you, but Redmond should certainly be concerned. *

I’ll tell you why. *Apple has gotten smarter about how it competes with Microsoft.* Clearly the underdog, Apple has to make moves that can be seen as both supportive of the Windows marketplace and good for its Mac customers at the same time.

The switch to Intel was just such a chess move. Intel hardware makes it easier for Microsoft to create apps for the Mac. It solves a performance problem Apple had. *It creates a better experience for Intel-Mac owners because it better supports Windows applications.* The CPU architecture also puts Mac and Windows hardware on an easy-to-understand, level playing field. Perhaps most significantly, though, all these advantages appeal to potentially millions of Mac-curious Windows users because it makes the Mac more familiar.

*For the first time in its 23-year history, the Mac is finally able to move fluidly into and out of the world of Microsoft Windows and its applications — both in the workplace and at home.* Microsoft’s own Office suite plays a big role in that. Microsoft’s commitment to Office 2008 for the Mac lends additional support. 

But the untapped source for the Mac is software designed for Windows. VMware is offering a public beta of its Fusion virtualization product for the Mac; the final release is due this summer. *In the meantime, it’s the Parallels Desktop software that has been truly transformational for the Mac.* 

Parallels isn’t just an easy-to-use virtualization utility for running Windows on the Mac. The company’s Coherence feature lets Windows apps run in an all but invisible Windows instance on your Mac. *They look for all the world like they’re running on your Mac, not in Windows.* Parallels also makes it easy to switch back and forth between a full-screen version of Windows and your full-screen Mac. And Windows XP runs flawlessly on the Mac in Parallels. (Parallels also supports Vista, but not the Aero interface, yet.)

For people who haven’t tried it recently, the most surprising thing about the Mac in 2007 is that software is simply not a problem. Most average Windows users have no idea how rich a software base the Mac has grown in recent years. *With convenient access to Windows applications, as well as access to an intriguing, growing market of Mac-specific software, finding great software that runs on the Mac is easier than ever before.* 

*That insidious Macintosh*

OK, so full disclosure: I am a recent Mac convert. *But before you chalk me up as an apple-eyed Mac fanboy, I’m not your average Windows-to-Mac switcher.* No one knows better than me (well, maybe Microsoft’s accountants) how firm a grip on the computer industry Microsoft has. As a Windows reviewer since almost the beginning of Windows (my first tests were of Windows 2.11), I have no illusions about Microsoft’s market lock. 

If the Mac or any other desktop OS were to truly put a dent in Microsoft’s desktop market share, it would take 15 years for Windows to “die.” And that’s assuming Microsoft stood still and did nothing. *In other words, it ain’t gonna happen.*

I also don’t hate Microsoft. I’m not a fanatic. I’m just someone who recognizes a good thing when he sees it. *I undertook a simple three-month trial of the Mac last autumn, with no intention of sticking around, and realized four months later that I wasn’t going back.* 

But here’s the kicker: I am very definitely not alone. A lot of people who were previously confirmed Windows users have given the Mac a try over the last year. Windows Vista is the most ambitious version of Windows since Windows 95, but it’s far less compelling than Windows 95 was. *Vista isn’t a bad product; it’s just not a great one.* After six years of waiting, it was time for something significantly better. We didn’t get it.

Because I made the switch recently, and did so publicly, I’ve gotten hundreds of messages from Computerworld readers (as well as readers of my personal newsletter, Scot’s Newsletter) informing me that they, too, switched to the Mac recently. Many are IT people. Some confess that they manage Windows users by day, and run Macs at home. Others tell me that they’ve switched in the office, and it’s no big deal. *The all-but-universal experience is that the transition was much easier than expected, and that using the Mac has made switchers more productive.* 

What’s especially intriguing to me is that many IT managers have reported that execs of all stripes are switching to the Mac at their companies. I’ve seen the same phenomenon. At my company, three very highly placed execs have used Macs for many years. The vast majority of people have used Windows. *Over the course of the last year, however, several new Mac users have appeared, including three in my area of the company.* Mac users are beginning to come out of the woodwork. And the word is spreading that it’s OK to do that.

So, while I don’t think Microsoft has anything to fear in the market share department, when it comes to mind share, it has a lot to lose. The Mac is experiencing a renaissance. It’s about Intel inside. It’s about Unix at the core. It’s about virtualization technology. It’s about the surprising availability of software. *It’s about a superior operating system, and attractive hardware.* It’s about serious buzz. 

People are talking about the Mac throughout the industry. *Admit it: Whether you love it or hate it, you’re talking about the Mac at the water cooler.* Many IT pros tend to laugh up their sleeves about how expensive and eccentric Macs are. But they’re still talking. It’s one of the top 10 technology stories of the year.

*Macintosh TCO*

There are three essential truths that I have come to believe about Macs:

1. The mythology surrounding the Mac isn’t true. It’s not impervious to problems. *Like any computer, a Mac can really come apart on you in a bad way.* I’ve seen it happen. 

2. When Macs go bad, the conventional wisdom is that they’re harder to fix than Windows machines. I used to believe that myself. It may have been true under pre-OS X versions of the Mac OS, but I no longer find that to be the case. *As a relative Mac newbie, I’ve had no trouble figuring out Mac problems — and that includes a couple of doozies.*

3. That said, Macs go bad less often than Windows PCs. *Mac users are more productive than Windows users because Macs experience fewer problems.* There’s nothing mystical about it either. There are some obvious reasons why this is the case: The Mac is a closed hardware/software system. The OS isn’t forced to contend with a vast variety of hardware, and the hardware is carefully vetted so that it works perfectly with the software. Apple controls the horizontal; it controls the vertical. The hardware and software are a matched set. 

Apple has also had an enduring, consistent vision about usability. It’s willing to sacrifice both power and flexibility to create a user interface that is far more intuitive than other operating systems. *So Macs work better and are easier to use.* That’s it in a nutshell.

What would you pay for a computer that doesn’t currently need anti-malware software? *On most Windows PCs — especially consumer-spec’ed PCs — the security software is robbing the PC of so much system overhead that the user experience suffers.* This one difference alone delivers a small reduction of software costs and a large reduction of helpdesk calls. 

When it comes to hardware, Macs have long been perceived as overpriced and underpowered — and that may have been true in the past. *But when you compare today’s premium Windows-based hardware, such as the Lenovo ThinkPad T60 series, to the Apple MacBook Pro, what you find is that you don’t pay a premium for the Mac hardware.* You can easily pay a lot more for a high-end Lenovo notebook than for a MacBook Pro. Of course, it’s also possible to pay less for Dell hardware than you would for Apple hardware. 

The point is that Apple isn’t necessarily the most expensive hardware vendor out there. *And given the productivity and reliability of Mac hardware, it’s not as expensive as it may seem.* Of course, if you don’t already have Macintosh expertise in your helpdesk, then it’s a big deal to add. But more and more companies have already accepted that challenge.

The problem in assessing Mac total cost of ownership comes at the low end. *Apple should create economy-oriented, business-class desktop and notebook hardware.* The iMac is a home machine. And while the MacBook is fairly inexpensive, there are too many tradeoffs — such as its Chiclet-like keyboard — for it to succeed in the business world. (Not everyone agrees with me on this point. Some believe that Apple’s consumer Macs are enterprise-worthy.)

Since Apple offers very few SKUs, it’s almost impossible for enterprise buyers to save money by specifying this or that lesser feature in order to reduce cost. *Without a model specifically designed for low-end business desktops, Apple just isn’t competitive there.*

*Microsoft’s buzz kill
*
There was a time when people jokingly described Apple as Microsoft’s advanced software lab. *Anyone who follows operating systems — please, be objective if your knee-jerk reaction is to disagree — has to realize that Microsoft has imitated literally hundreds of features and behaviors of Apple’s OS X.* Yes, there are some advantages that originated with Microsoft (such as file icon thumbnail previews). But OS X is clearly leading the desktop OS parade. Everyone is copying Apple — and with good reason.

The time for joking has passed. Microsoft hasn’t exactly failed with Vista. But it’s more like a double than a home run. Apple is innovating not just with the software and hardware it creates, but with the value proposition it is building in the marketplace. Apple hasn’t ever been particularly good about that before. Sure, it’s managed to appeal to people’s aesthetic sensibilities, but almost never to people’s wallets. *While Macs still aren’t cheap, you get a lot more bang for the buck than you once did.*

*And that’s why Microsoft should read the vibe and think twice about ignoring Apple this time.* Microsoft nearly missed the boat on the Internet last decade. It backed into a giant antitrust brouhaha. It has had huge problems with security this decade. Through its own inattention to Internet Explorer, it allowed Mozilla’s Firefox to gain a bridgehead on browser market share. Even dyed-in-the-wool Windows enterprises are fed up with me-too Microsoft upgrades, the never-ending blizzard of security patches, the increasing hardware requirements for Vista, volume licensing snafus, and a litany of other complaints and sore points. 

Nothing lasts forever. The bloom is coming off the rose on Microsoft. I would never put it past the software giant to come up with a way to remake itself in a better light. But the current course doesn’t appear to me to lead in that direction. *As much as Apple is doing things right, Microsoft is doing things wrong.* That’s a great combination for Apple, if it can keep walking the current tightrope.

In the end, this is about perception. It isn’t about Apple’s market share or even its quarterly sales numbers. (Apple’s notebook computer sales for the fourth quarter were 4.1 percent of all portable computer sales, according to DisplaySearch.) *What this is about is that Apple is reaching the right people with its product, winning new converts, Windows user by Windows user — and creating buzz.*

How do you measure buzz? You don’t. It’s something that experienced people in this industry can just feel. *And that’s the condition Microsoft should fear.* Because buzz can turn into something much harder to combat than sheer numbers. 

_Scot Finnie is_ Computerworld’s _online editorial director._


*Via Macworld*
_____________________________________________


This is the most level headed opinion column about Apple and Microsoft that I have ever read and I felt it was worth posting here. Scot Finnie has always been a Windows user and when he switched to the Mac platform, he realised how much better it was - just like thousands of other people.

Windows users around the world say that when people switch from Windows to Mac, they become fanboys. What they don't realise is that this statement itself gives away the immense insecurity they feel. They know that if people become fanboys on switching to a Mac, there's got to be some reason behind it. They do not gain anything by supporting Apple. They do so because they know it is the better option.


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## anandk (Mar 30, 2007)

TRUE !

microsoft shud fear apple ! in fact it is my considered opinion that any market leader MUST (not _fear_ really...thats being a litle too _colorful_) be *AWARE* (or atmost WARY) of its closest competitors. and, well quite far away, apple IS the closest corporate competitor ms has.

objectively speaking, mac NEEDS TO  integrate itself with windows in view of the latters really l-a-r-g-e user base. so mac now taking steps "to move fluidly into and out of the world of Microsoft Windows and its applications" is a step _*necessitated out of its own complusions*_; and not out of choice; or love for windows users ! 

being a giant tends to make most entities a little lethargic. but on my redmond visit i learnt things which were rather impressive. ms is alive and kicking...and kicking hard ! esp the work which dr gary flake (founder director of live labs) and his live labs is doing...is the futue. his presentation impressed me the most there !
*battellemedia.com/images/gwf-small-tm.jpg
(_now someone pls dont say gary flake looks like a mac user _)

and ya mac and competitors are on ms radars, make no mistake about that ! it admiited very candidly it had misd the internet and the search bus ! but the algorithms for search are ever-changing and the future was where they (live) r working hard now. search as we know it WILL be re-defined !

change is the only constant. nothing lasts for ever. either u keep reinventing urself or u perish. to me, microsoft looks ever alert and responsive to tackle this scenario; prophecies, by all and sundry, notwithstanding.

the future will be towards integration. and while some respective fans of each will continue to slug it out at ground zero saying _'mine is better than urs'_, dont be surprised if u see new alignments, new corprate formations or even creations of new cartels in the future ! its not so far-fetched an idea, really !


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## Pathik (Mar 31, 2007)

awesome article.. Loved reading it..


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## aryayush (Mar 31, 2007)

anandk said:
			
		

> TRUE !
> 
> microsoft shud fear apple ! in fact it is my considered opinion that any market leader MUST (not _fear_ really...thats being a litle too _colorful_) be *AWARE* (or atmost WARY) of its closest competitors. and, well quite far away, apple IS the closest corporate competitor ms has.
> 
> ...


A very nice, objective viewpoint. I appreciate it. 

I think Microsoft, as a corporation, is not doing much wrong. But when it comes to Windows, they seriously need to improve their standards to ever compete with Mac OS X. They have always been playing catch-up. I know MS can afford to be loose because of the huge user base and the inertia and initial cost of ownership that prevent people from switching sides - but the scenario is changing, albeit at a very slow pace. Apple is picking up more and more followers and Windows is being criticised by almost every critic on the planet, including long time Windows supporters such as Scot Finnie and Paul Thurrott.

If Vista had taken one or at the maximum, two years of development, it would have been an awesome product. But if this is what Microsoft has to offer at the end of five long years, their development team seriously needs to take a look at the things they are doing wrong.


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## iMav (Mar 31, 2007)

aryayush said:
			
		

> If Vista had taken one or at the maximum, two years of development, it would have been an awesome product. But if this is what Microsoft has to offer at the end of five long years, their development team seriously needs to take a look at the things they are doing wrong.


 well i think that we dont know what goes on behind closed doors so it would be rather difficult for us to comment on that ... i am sure that bill gates too didnot anticipate a 5 yr gap (hampers profits for sure) but then there had to have been some serious reasons as to why vista took so long and in all fairness it is a good product comparing it to the previous versions ... and the time iv spent on vista well they have given windows OS an absolute make over of sorts

coming back to the topic ... as anand said it is important for companies to know what the other is doing for eg. nokia and SE, they have to know what the other is upto coz its a competitive market so any edge 1 gets over the other is all that makes the difference


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## anandk (Mar 31, 2007)

anandk said:
			
		

> the future will be towards integration. and while some respective fans of each will continue to slug it out at ground zero saying _'mine is better than urs'_, dont be surprised if u see new alignments, new corprate formations or even creations of new cartels in the future ! its not so far-fetched an idea, really !



Microsoft has JUST started private testing of the next version of Office for the Macintosh, which is due out in the second half of the year. Microsoft has started private testing of the next version of Office for the Macintosh *Office 2008 for Mac*, as the product is known, helps bring the desktop suite back into compatibility with two key technologies. First, the product is the first version of Office that runs natively on both Intel- and Power PC-based Macs.


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## shantanu (Mar 31, 2007)

IN a hundred years also Microsoft is not needed to fear Apple... Apple is a very nice company with great products , but Comparing them to M$ is a threat to Apple...


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## nepcker (Mar 31, 2007)

> Microsoft has JUST started private testing of the next version of Office for the Macintosh, which is due out in the second half of the year. Microsoft has started private testing of the next version of Office for the Macintosh Office 2008 for Mac, as the product is known, helps bring the desktop suite back into compatibility with two key technologies. First, the product is the first version of Office that runs natively on both Intel- and Power PC-based Macs.


Yes, Office for Mac is great - greater than the Windows version. I've now moved from MS Office to OpenOffice.org-based office suite called NeoOffice. I use Keynote 3 for my presentations. Though I may purchase Office for Mac 2008 too (I just have the Office for Mac 2004 trial that came with my mac - it feels like an OS X app, not Windows app, so I like it).



> IN a hundred years also Microsoft is not needed to fear Apple... Apple is a very nice company with great products , but Comparing them to M$ is a threat to Apple...


How is comparing them to M$ is a threat to Apple?


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## shantanu (Mar 31, 2007)

its because M$ is a relatively a very big infrastructured company in comparision to Apple, and the money and market stability is well very higher than Apple.


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## nepcker (Mar 31, 2007)

^^ Apple is a pretty big company itself and comparing Apple to M$ is not a threat at all. It's not about how much money you have - it's about the people you have, how you're led, and how much you get it.


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## shantanu (Mar 31, 2007)

M$ is having 70000 Employees,,, how much does Apple have... Microsoft is a Billonare company.. Apple isnt.. and 120000 people are affilated to M$.. 85% or more population uses windows ... i aint fighting.. but really you cant  compare M$ to Apple...


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## nepcker (Mar 31, 2007)

Apple has 17,787 full-time; 2,399 temporary employees. Apple is also a multi-billionaire company. And it also doesn't matters on market share - Apple's market share is bigger in the computing industry than BMW and Mercedes combined have in the automotive market. What's wrong with being BMW or Mercedes? Do you buy an iPod because it has the highest market share? No. You buy it because it is the *greatest* portable media plater.


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## shantanu (Mar 31, 2007)

i think you cant provide a SOLID reason.. the reasons are lame,, so do dome R&D first.. buddy!!! nothing personal.. but look at the huge margin in workers and all..


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## manishjha18 (Mar 31, 2007)

I think its a dream for Mac to even compete with Mac--don’t know why people think cool to abuse Microsoft--and even if they do it why don’t they switch over to Linux--its better than Mac any day.

Q: What is the difference between a Mac User and a Terrorist?
A: You can negotiate with a terrorist


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## nepcker (Mar 31, 2007)

^^LOL! But Windows and Linux fans also don't move to other OSes.

Linux is better than Windows - no doubt about it. But Mac OS X is *way* better than Linux. 

@shantanu_webmaster:
It really doesn't matter how many employees you have. Even if they have far more money/employees than Apple, all they can do is copy from Apple and other companies. Can you give me a "*solid*" reply to this? Can you tell me a couple of revolutionary things that are 100% microsoft original?


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## gxsaurav (Mar 31, 2007)

> Apple has 17,787 full-time; 2,399 temporary employees. Apple is also a multi-billionaire company. And it also doesn't matters on market share - Apple's market share is bigger in the computing industry than BMW and Mercedes combined have in the automotive market. What's wrong with being BMW or Mercedes? Do you buy an iPod because it has the highest market share? No.



Source about the Apple employee count plz. R U an Apple employee or working in there marketing team?


> You buy it because it is the *greatest* portable media plater.



& I thought Pizza *Platters* are best . About it being gr8....ya right. Already proven many times how lame & close technology iPod is.


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## nepcker (Mar 31, 2007)

> Source about the Apple employee count plz. R U an Apple employee or working in there marketing team?


I copy-n-pasted it from Wikipedia. And I'm not an Apple employee - I'm an Apple *customer*.


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## aryayush (Mar 31, 2007)

@shantanu_webmaster, everyone - including nepcker - knows that Microsoft is several times larger than Apple. They have a near monopoly in the computer software industry.

What nepcker challenged, and rightly so, is your silly statement that "Apple is a very nice company with great products , but Comparing them to M$ is a threat to Apple...". That is a very ridiculous claim. How can comparing a company to another be a threat to either company! Do think before you post something. No hard feelings.


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## iMav (Mar 31, 2007)

nepcker said:
			
		

> You buy it because it is the *greatest* portable media plater.


 i dis-agree and will under no circumsatnces say its the best its not coz i own it and my frenz own others so i can comment on the portable media player segment


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## aryayush (Mar 31, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Source about the Apple employee count plz.


You are not in any authority to demand the source from him or anyone else. If you do not wish to believe his statement, you are free to do so.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Already proven many times how lame & close technology iPod is.


You say that Windows is obviously better than Mac OS X because almost everyone in the world and their brother uses Windows.

But when it comes to the iPod, your logic does not hold true anymore. Great! I appreciate your equity of scale.

You cannot have it both ways - either iPods are the best music players in the market or Windows sucks! Choose whichever you want.


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## shantanu (Mar 31, 2007)

you need a solid answer gr8: Microsoft makes software for people , not for geeks and PROS... even a child can operate it.. and more than 85% people in world arent mad to buy windows.. and + Microsoft made computing easy by windows edition.. 3.1,95,98 2000 , XP and now Vista... you say Microsoft Copies From MAC, what did they copy a theme.. that you meant to say... 

and how can you say that Linux is better than windows.. tell me the games which runs on Linux and that too just by double clicking the .exe, no they dont.. you say that windows is copied, give me a PROOF that the works by M$ is copied by macs , it will help me understand that why M$ is such a big company and APPLE isnt.. Dude.. being a FANBOY is very simple.. but the truth wont change by that... anyone will say that M$ is the biggest of all IT sector companies... but you thik its Apple.. Apple is a very good company.. i dont say its not.. but if you coapre it with M$ then it goes way behind it.. 4% is nothing to cover in worlds population... 

If APPLES were so good then why they arent 80 % all over the world..

M$ discovered the Pnp Support, an infact

VISTA is the first OS which does not needs a BIOS to run... is apple having that feature... its M$ who developed it and all credits to Mr. B G, who made the company so well developed that it can build up softwares easy to use... and plus how many shipments a year APPLE gives free of cost.. to its customers.. can i download that RC type packages for free from apple.. SMALL hearted company... isnt it.. or they dont have that much money power to cope up with Piracy loss...

@arya.. you first say this kind of things and then say no hard feelings.. you guys never understand the words.. and i wont clearify everytime what i meant to say....

There is NO comparision of M$ to apple... this is the BASELINE


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## iMav (Mar 31, 2007)

aryayush said:
			
		

> either iPods are the best music players in the market or Windows sucks! Choose whichever you want.


 ipod currently leads the market because of 3 reasons ... it was first in the market to launch sucha product .... it has brand value .... people consider it more to be a status symbol and that because as said ipod was the first (if not first, first to cash in on the mp3 player concept) to come up with such a device and a lot of page 3 celebs started buying it ... i know of people who dont know how put vdos on their ipod but have a 60gig ipod, my fren in US bought the ipod simply coz every1 in his class owned 1 and not having 1 seemed a little awkward ...

only of the reasons holds true for MS windows ... its success can be attributed to a lot other reasons also


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## aryayush (Mar 31, 2007)

mAV3 said:
			
		

> i dis-agree and will under no circumsatnces say its the best its not coz i own it and my frenz own others so i can comment on the portable media player segment


Have a look at what Chris Taylor has to say about the iPod:





> Of course, iPods now have a lot of functionality: they can display video, photos, and play games. But that doesn't mean consumers are using all these functions. Next time you're on a street or a bus in a busy city, count how many people are listening to iPods that are stashed away in pockets, identifiable only by their white earbuds. They just want to throw the computer away and be served audio treats.
> 
> That's why the iPod succeeded where its predecessor products bombed. Few people remember that the iPod was actually regarded as a Johnny-Come-Lately MP3 player with a too-small 5-gigabyte hard drive when it first came out - "we're pretty late to the party," CEO Steve Jobs admitted to me at the time.
> 
> But it was super easy, which larger competitors like the 20-gigabyte Rio Nomad weren't. My parents figured out how to use the iPod within five minutes. They didn't even want to pick up my Nomad. Nor, I instantly decided, did I.


It has fewer features but a much better user interface and it just works. You want a music player to listen to music and an iPod gives you the best music listening experience without any hassles. And it looks sexy while it does the job.


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## gxsaurav (Mar 31, 2007)

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Windows + Sandisk Sansa or K750i = Best combination


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## aryayush (Mar 31, 2007)

mAV3 said:
			
		

> ipod currently leads the market because of 3 reasons ... it was first in the market to launch sucha product .... it has brand value .... people consider it more to be a status symbol and that because as said ipod was the first (if not first, first to cash in on the mp3 player concept) to come up with such a device and a lot of page 3 celebs started buying it ... i know of people who dont know how put vdos on their ipod but have a 60gig ipod, my fren in US bought the ipod simply coz every1 in his class owned 1 and not having 1 seemed a little awkward ...
> 
> only of the reasons holds true for MS windows ... its success can be attributed to a lot other reasons also


I can give you a string of excuses why Macs are not the dominant players in the market but I won't do so.

Whenever Windows supporters are cowed down by the superiority of Mac OS X, they come up with one standard excuse  - look at the market share.

To you I say - "look at the market share".


And if you are going to logic and reason why iPods are not the best, then be prepared to face the same logic and reason about why Windows is not the best.


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## iMav (Mar 31, 2007)

i have not said that the ipod isnt a success ... well its such a big success that at 1 point of time apple products were revolving around the ipod ... i said that its leading the market no doubt but its not because its the best pmp .... adn i have neither said that windows is the best we only say that its better than linux and mac ... thats all we dont say its the best only better than the best which for u may b mac and for others may be linux ...

again windows = not best, but certainly better than the rest ... superlative and comparative ..


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## gxsaurav (Mar 31, 2007)

Yo guys, calm down. This is not fight club.



> Whenever Windows supporters are cowed down by the superiority of Mac OS X, they come up with one standard excuse - look at the market share.



You just said that iPod has the biggest market share in mp3 players cos it is very easy to use & it just works. So, why doesn't this same reason applies to Windows for its success? Just cos it is from MS?


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## iMav (Mar 31, 2007)

^^ bang on target ....


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## aryayush (Mar 31, 2007)

shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> Microsoft makes software for people , not for geeks and PROS...


That's a harsh statement, specially coming from a Microsoft supporter. Even I can tell you that Windows is both fairly easy to use and configurable for "for geeks and PROS". Don't degrade Windows more than it already is.



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> even a child can operate it..


Depends on his/her age though. And if he can use Windows, he can definitely use Mac OS X. This is the last time I am going to tell you, the whole world knows that Macs are easier to use when compared to Windows. And you have absolutely no right to judge on it because you have not used a Mac.



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> more than 85% people in world arent mad to buy windows..


Though I disagree, it logically follows that more than 63% people who buy music players arent mad to buy iPods. BTW, more than 50% of the people in the World don't even own a computer, leave alone buying Windows. 



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> you say Microsoft Copies From MAC, what did they copy a theme.. that you meant to say...


"Microsoft has imitated literally hundreds of features and behaviors of Apple’s OS X." And this was not said by me, it was said by a long time user and very respected reviewer of Windows, Scot Finnie, who "finally saw the light". I am not saying it is wrong to copy though, I am just saying that they do. They are just, and have always been, playing catch-up with Apple. It is a fact. Face it, and get over it. You don't want me to start with a list of all the things they have copied in Vista.



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> and how can you say that Linux is better than windows.. tell me the games which runs on Linux and that too just by double clicking the .exe, no they dont


There is hardly any game in Windows that runs "just by double clicking the .exe". And just because Windows has a huge number of games does not make it a better OS than others. If you go by that argument, the operating system used in the Nintendo Wii is the best one in the world. I am not defending Linux, but your argument against is a pathetic one.



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> just by double clicking the .exeyou say that windows is copied, give me a PROOF that the works by M$ is copied by macs , it will help me understand that why M$ is such a big company and APPLE isnt


Windows Photo Gallery, Windows Movie Maker, Windows CD/DVD maker, Chess, Live Search, large scalable icons... I could go one for two days and three nights!



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> anyone will say that M$ is the biggest of all IT sector companies... but you thik its Apple


Who said that! Point me to that person and I'll personally whack him with a stick.



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> 4% is nothing to cover in worlds population...


Actually, Apple does not even cover 0.5% of the "worlds population".



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> If APPLES were so good then why they arent 80 % all over the world..


Because there are more donkeys than horses - and unfortunately, more idiots than intelligent people.



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> VISTA is the first OS which does not needs a BIOS to run


Oh really? Could you elaborate please? I really need a judge's ruling on this one. Please elaborate!



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> and plus how many shipments a year APPLE gives free of cost.. to its customers.. can i download that RC type packages for free from apple..


Last I knew, there have been nine "RC type packages for free from apple" for Mac OS X 10.4 "Tiger" alone, in a duration of two years. "SMALL hearted company" indeed.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> You just said that iPod has the biggest market share in mp3 players cos it is very easy to use & it just works. So, why doesn't this same reason applies to Windows for its success? Just cos it is from MS?


I am the one who is saying this. Accept one. EITHER
Windows is the best because it has a greater market share than all the competitors put together and iPod is the best because it has a greater market share than all the competitors put together.

OR
Windows sucks but it became popular for one reason (read excuse) or the other and iPod sucks but it became popular for one reason (read excuse) or the other.

You choose one of the too. Either Windows and iPod rock, or both suck.


@mAV3, you have achieved quite a feat. I never thought I would come across someone with poorer knowledge of English than gx_saurav.
Better than the rest is not equal to best? How come Answers.com says that best means "surpassing all others in excellence, achievement, or quality"?

Windows is not the best but it is better than all other operating systems. Right? That does not make it the best?


----------



## shantanu (Mar 31, 2007)

first of all arya !! i wrote all this not to you but to nepcker.. and if you say then... 

let me tell you that i am never opposing apple but opposing the thoughts which are wrong.. 

i again say quoting me can never solve an issue , but why you post such flamable topics... this thread is started by you... and the TOPIC name is offensive itself..  wont elaborate on anything.. nor i will reply again to this thread... but You yourself think that what i was talkign about i dont i will talk about the cats and dogs using comp. 

* The Overall Worlds population who uses Comp* this was what i mean...

leaving......


----------



## aryayush (Mar 31, 2007)

Leave if you wish to but clarify this for me:
"VISTA is the first OS which does not needs a BIOS to run"

What does this mean? Please!

First of all, the title of the topic is NOT offensive. You are hyper-sensitive and offended by nearly everything that is done or said by anyone. India is a democracy and everyone has the right to freedom of speech. (My civics teacher would have been so proud of me today!  )

And anyway, the title is not framed by me, it is the original title of the opinion piece. And I repeat, it is NOT offensive by any standards - unless Microsoft is the name of your significant other! 

And let me tell you why you are so keen to leave the thread on your way out, you simply have no answer to my logically accurate post. I understand. I do the same thing when I am outwitted. 

Make sure you close the door when you leave and don't hurt yourself. It opens outward and hinges back.


----------



## shantanu (Mar 31, 2007)

The thing is that :  when you turn your computer on  you see the black screen and words scroll by, then, finally, the Vista startup sound... But, there's a good deal of code that runs in this preOS environment, much of it composed in languages you've probably never written (like 16-Bit Real Mode code). What does the BIOS do, anyway? Why do we need a BIOS? Vista can run without a BIOS: It supports UEFI. 

UEFI :

UEFI is a technically superior solution to use for boot compared to BIOS. UEFI is well-specified and is a testable interface that will improve system compatibility and reliability. Architecturally, UEFI allows the transition away from real-mode 16-bit code that is common in BIOS. Its agility will improve time to market for platforms and will allow new scenarios to be developed in future release of Windows. 

However, because BIOS boot is ingrained into all existing x86 and x64 deployments, Microsoft will continue to support BIOS-based boot for the foreseeable future. If UEFI becomes a well-established standard for booting systems, then Microsoft might consider a gradual transition away from BIOS-based boot support. It is likely that this transition would initially take the form of implementing only some features on UEFI systems.

*www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/platform/firmware/efibrief.mspx


----------



## aryayush (Mar 31, 2007)

I expected this. Yet again you prove that you have absolutely zero knowledge about Macs. You like Windows, use it. Advocate its use, no one is stopping you. But please do not spread misinformation like "VISTA is the first OS which does not needs a BIOS to run". *Mac OS X "does not needs a BIOS to run" either. It uses EFI.*


----------



## shantanu (Apr 1, 2007)

But that too windows 2003 used EFI 1.1 which was then adopted by MACs, i suppose , but VISTA uses UEFi 2.0, that i way better and " its claimed that Vista is the first ever OS which does not needs a BIOS to RUN" while all others do , coz there was no development on it from any other company....

and Vista is first ever... remember that,,, and first search thouroughly... coz UEFI and EFI different, i aspects of BIOS usage.... 

i will post some more facts in few days about Apple adopting M$ technology of UEFI... but i need proof for that so i will give you that too... wait and watch.. till my MAC comes.. i now desperately want to see why you argue so much for MACS...


----------



## aryayush (Apr 1, 2007)

I don't know who adopted from whom, but I do know that Mac OS X has been using EFI since the day it was launched (in 2001) and it had been in development as far back as 1991. I am hundred percent sure Mac OS X used EFI before Windows because Windows XP uses the BIOS and even it was launched after Mac OS X.

What is Windows 2003, BTW?

And since Mac OS X has been using EFI for a long time, *Vista is not "the first OS which does not needs a BIOS to run."*

I hope I won't have to repeat that again.


----------



## shantanu (Apr 1, 2007)

you will have to repeat this again coz .. M$ has claimed on basis of UEFI that 

" Microsoft windows Vista is the first ever OS that does not needs a BIOS to run... " 

and i again say that search EFI and UEFI... you will come to know the difference...

and i mean Server 2003 

and ya i am chilled out..


----------



## gxsaurav (Apr 1, 2007)

> They are just, and have always been, playing catch-up with Apple. It is a fact. Face it, and get over it. You don't want me to start with a list of all the things they have copied in Vista.


now what to say , Time machine, Hardware accelerated Umm....System Restore, GDI+...does it rings a bell



> Windows Photo Gallery, Windows Movie Maker, Windows CD/DVD maker, Chess, Live Search, large scalable icons... I could go one for two days and three nights!


Windows Picture & fax viewer of XP combined with XP explorer thumbnail view , or ACDSee or IrfanView, or Picasa.....there are so many apps which do the same thing, then technically all of these also copied iPhoto right?

Windows Movie maker was relesed long before iDVD or iMovie.

Windows CD\DVD Maker = Was there in Windows XP already in form of CD Burner, but for Data disk only, what we now have in Vista is just modified version of it. Again, not a copy of Apple...oh comon, nero was relesed in 1999 already boy.

Live search = Shown in longhorn 4xxx builds long before it was copied by Apple in form of spotlight

Large scalable Icons = It is there since Windows 98.

That list you are talking about doesn't exist.



> Because there are more donkeys than horses - and unfortunately, more idiots than intelligent people


Reported for abusing other OS users.


> Oh really? Could you elaborate please? I really need a judge's ruling on this one. Please elaborate!


Vista is made with BIOS as well as EFI in mind. it works with both fine. It isn't that hard to install Vista on a Mac without boot camp, hell... Vista ultimate or bussiness edition even support the TPM chip found in Mac's motherboard & they supported it long before apple made the switch to Intel CPU



> @mAV3, you have achieved quite a feat. I never thought I would come across someone with poorer knowledge of English than gx_saurav.


Reported , personal comment. Tarey was right, when you have nothing valid to speak, you start your english Rants. here is the thing boy, you have no idea why I do these mistakes right?  You find it amusing, good, thats intended. Ask those who know me about my english.



> I don't know who adopted from whom, but I do know that *Mac OS X has been using EFI since the day it was launched (in 2001) and it had been in development as far back as 1991*. I am hundred percent sure Mac OS X used EFI before Windows because Windows XP uses the BIOS and even it was launched after Mac OS X.
> 
> And since Mac OS X has been using EFI for a long time, *Vista is not "the first OS which does not needs a BIOS to run."*



:ROFL , ha ha, i just cant stop laughing boy. EFI was advocated by Intel & AMD, & *in 2001 when MacOS 10.0 relesed, the concept of EFI was not even on paper.* Who told you this anyway...lolz. Stop being such an ass boy, kabhi to factful words kaha kar. You are really a blind apple believer if you say PowerPC G5 & G4 used EFI . They used normal OEM BIOS. You started using Apple when it became affordable after the switch to Intel, there are many users in this forum who are using it since PowerPC G3 (ibook) days.

EFI was first implemented in Macbook & Macbook pro in 2006, & it is coming to PC with Intel santarosa. In 1991, no one even thought of EFI cos it was not even required back then. Lolz.....I pity your half knowledge.


----------



## aryayush (Apr 1, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> now what to say , Time machine, Hardware accelerated Umm....System Restore, GDI+...does it rings a bell


Ho hum!
Leave alone Microsoft, show me something like Time Machine made by ANY other company.

Macs have been using hardware acceleration ever since the beginning of OS X, if I am not wrong - which I may be.

System Restore, I'll give you that. It is a wonderful feature of Windows that I would have loved to have in Tiger. Thankfully, we'll be getting it with Leopard.

GDI+ = What is that?



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Windows Picture & fax viewer of XP combined with XP explorer thumbnail view , or ACDSee or IrfanView, or Picasa.....there are so many apps which do the same thing, then technically all of these also copied iPhoto right


Windows Photo Gallery couldn't have been more similar to iPhoto had it been run through a photocopier - which, come to think of it, it most probably has been.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Windows Movie maker was relesed long before iDVD or iMovie.


But the version in Vista heavily borrows a number of features from iMovie.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Windows CD\DVD Maker = Was there in Windows XP already in form of CD Burner, but for Data disk only, what we now have in Vista is just modified version of it. Again, not a copy of Apple


When I launched the program, I thought for a second that it might have been iDVD with a glassy interface. It is exactly the same, though iDVD has better templates to choose from.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Live search = Shown in longhorn 4xxx builds long before it was copied by Apple in form of spotlight


The world saw it first on Tiger, two years before Windows.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Large scalable Icons =  it is there since Windows 98.


Oh yeah! Do you have any idea what you are talking about! Why not just go ahead and say that its been there since Windows 3.1? Or even 1.0? Maybe even in DOS! 

You have obviously used neither iDVD, nor iMovie or iPhoto or even a Mac. Why do you keep making things up then!



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> That list you are talking about doesn't exist.


Yeah, it doesn't - for you. Be happy.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> :ROFL , ha ha, i just cant stop laughing boy. EFI was advocated by Intel & AMD, & *in 2001 when MacOS 10.0 relesed, the concept of EFI was not even on paper.* Who told you this anyway...lolz. Stop being such an ass boy, kabhi to factful words kaha kar. You are really a blind apple believer if you say PowerPC G5 & G4 used EFI . They used normal OEM BIOS. You started using Apple when it became affordable after the switch to Intel, there are many users in this forum who are using it since PowerPC G3 (ibook) days.
> 
> EFI was first implemented in Macbook & Macbook pro in 2006, & it is coming to PC with Intel santarosa. In 1991, no one even thought of EFI cos it was not even required back then. Lolz.....I pity your half knowledge.


Yeah, I am sorry! This was a stupid mistake and I will admit it any day that I really have very limited knowledge about hardware. Sorry! 
Vista is still not the first OS that runs without a BIOS though.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Reported for abusing other OS users.


Yay! WOW! gx_saurav has learned a new feature. Maybe they'll even miserable me for it. Buy yourself a candy from me if that happens. 



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Reported , personal comment. Tarey was right, when you have nothing valid to speak, you start your english Rants. here is the thing boy, you have no idea why I do these mistakes right?  You find it amusing, good, thats intended. Ask those who know me about my english.


Yeah, I am so interested to know the reason why you spell 'simplicity' as 'simplysity'! 
Dude, you are not that important. Get over it.


----------



## shantanu (Apr 1, 2007)

> Originally Posted by *Aryayush*
> System Restore. It is a wonderful feature of Windows that I would have loved to have in Tiger. Thankfully, we'll be getting it with Leopard


 
i will not say anything else... but just this.. from when did Apple started Copying Windows Features...  just this... that even Windows Me supported System Restore

No offense


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## aryayush (Apr 1, 2007)

Every now and then, someone at Microsoft is hit by a stroke of genius. It is wise for Apple to copy these features, but Apple is at most times stubborn and refuses to do so. It is a negative point. They should embrace the good features as soon as they hit the market.

Likewise, Microsoft should do the same and it does.

But there is very little innovation at Microsoft. They basically just copy all of Mac OS X's features - and even implement some of them in a very poor way.
Which brings us back to the conclusion that Mac OS X is definitely a superior product when compared to Windows.


----------



## shantanu (Apr 1, 2007)

Hey arya!! i just understood a fact.. that even if apple copies its some good thing behind that... just coz its APPLE.. you can never appreciate M$ , coz from your heart you hate M$, and you want personally Apple to be the best, thi reason sometimes becomes so high that your mind cant control your emotions...  , that ok it happens sometimes.. but you must think for  a second that what ar you saying..


----------



## gxsaurav (Apr 1, 2007)

The Mac UI uses Aqua right now, which was not GPU accelerated compleately till MacOS X 10.4 which was relesed after Vista showed the features in Longhorn 3xxx build. QuartzGL is still not implemented in Tiger, there is no 2D acceleration of Windows parallel to the monitor screen.



> Leave alone Microsoft, show me something like Time Machine made by ANY other company.


No, i will not. You were talking about MS copying Apple features, so I showed it did not. There is no need to bring other companies here.


> GDI+ = What is that?


For gods sake, stop using Computers .

Now I hope you don't ask what Aqua, Quartz Extreme & QuartzGL are.



> Windows Photo Gallery couldn't have been more similar to iPhoto had it been run through a photocopier - which, come to think of it, it most probably has been.


iPhoto, uses a timeline like Interface & saves images from a particular day as Film rolls, Photo gallery sorts according to EXIF tags & metadate. They are not same from any angle.



> But the version in Vista heavily borrows a number of features from iMovie.


Yeah, Adobe Premiere pro 1.0, or Avid Liquid, or Ulead or Virtual dub or numuras other 3rd party application which were relesed long before iMovie & iDVD went to the future to copy the ideas from Apple . Again, talk something which makes sence.



> When I launched the program, I thought for a second that it might have been iDVD with a glassy interface. It is exactly the same, though the iDVD has better templates to choose from.


guess what, Roxio Easy media creator (creators of Windows XP CD burning feature) has such UI, functionality since Easy media creator 7, oh wait.....they also went to future to copy from Apple.



> The world saw it first on Tiger, two years before Windows.


Yup, kudos to Apple to relese just this small feature in the form of a big $130 new OS.



> Oh yeah! Do you have any idea what you are talking about! Why not just go ahead and say that its been there since Windows 3.1? Or even 1.0? Maybe even in DOS!


once in this forum u asked something like this & Nikhil pointed a screenshot like this. Have you forgottten it...does this rings a bell.

*img352.imageshack.us/img352/3899/iconsizeaf4.jpg



> Vista is still not the first OS that runs without a BIOS though.


Yes, it is not the first OS. That award does goes to Windows server 2003



> Dude, you are not that important. Get over it.


Q - Which Macboys brings me to all threads where I don't even want to post.
A - Arya



> You have obviously used neither iDVD, nor iMovie or iPhoto or even a Mac. Why do you keep making things up then!


Same way I can say, that you have not used Windows Vista , stop making up things

One thing which I should tell you, it is neither Apple nor Microsoft which are the real innovators. *The real innovators are Independent Software vendors.* Software companies like Giant Ant-ispyware or Roxio or Nero or Acronis or Unsanity or Stardock or 3DNA are the real innovators which these OS companies copy or buy.


----------



## mediator (Apr 1, 2007)

This debate is between windows n Apple. Why do people drag Linux in between, just to make conversation more interesting and the place more happening? And then they dont entertain me and finish the debate with me!



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> even a child can operate it


With common sense as someone said? On one hand u say windows is most user friendly,reliable and all the qualities in the world and on other u say that while surfing u need to have common sense! When did an average joe and children in particular become that smart?

I hope u wont give a null argument like to disconnect the most basic necessity as internet and then operate!



> + Microsoft made computing easy by windows edition.. 3.1,95,98 2000 , XP


By making users experience crashes/hangups/error screens more than letting them do their urgent/daily tasks? U call it easy life, easy computing?  It wud have been better if u had said that MS revolutionised the desktop world.



> and how can you say that Linux is better than windows.. tell me the games which runs on Linux and that too just by double clicking the .exe


And u say u have experience with Linux. U dont have exe in linuxes. I'm not much into gaming but played "tremulous" recently. U try to play it tooo and then try to have a  serious discussion.



> Microsoft makes software for people , not for geeks and PROS...


And for whome is MS-OFFICE and VMWARE for? 


Ahh......Its useless actually to debate when they dont  entertain u to the end!
So please, I urge not spread ur FUDs unecessarily. Let it be an APPLE n MS discussion.


----------



## gxsaurav (Apr 1, 2007)

> By making users experience crashes/hangups/error screens more than letting them do their urgent/daily tasks? U call it easy life, easy computing?  It wud have been better if u had said that MS revolutionised the desktop world.



nope, by giving users an OS which runs on any hardware out there with strong drivers, hardware & software support. With a solid UI with a simple start button with a meaning ful UI (close max min buttons) etc

yo, u r right. keep it till apple, or infact don't keep it at all, this is not fight club


----------



## shantanu (Apr 1, 2007)

*img338.imageshack.us/img338/78/ohgodwhy7mene5.jpg

  (dont accuse me in copyright of this pic) it has been posted before also


----------



## mediator (Apr 1, 2007)

> yo, u r right. keep it till apple, or infact don't keep it at all, this is not fight club


Thats more like it, I hope others creating a FUD storm here will show some maturity!


----------



## knight17 (Apr 1, 2007)

It was in Microsoft's labs even before that.


			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> The world saw it first on Tiger, two years before Windows.



Apple may be an iCon all over the place but the truth will be different if the Linux side just makes a simple move. Everyone knows Apple is building their so called superior operating system on top of Darwin, which was/is an open source project. My question is If Apple is a company that filled with a crowd of software wonder kids  from Mars with an IQ greater than 140, why can't they build their own OS.

If any Linux distribution chose to stick with any single hardware configuration, they are the next Mac OS X. The hindrance that Linux is facing all these years is due to getting people understand how to start with it, if they start to bundle it with Dell, with correct drivers and everything, it is always greater than OS X, no one need to configure anything just start working. As the Linux desktop environments continue to make progress I am sure it will happen.

All the Mac fans here, can you tell me is there anything I can't do on my Windows box, but you can on your Mac.


----------



## shantanu (Apr 1, 2007)

r u saying it to me ... @mediator... you can take my name thats ok..


----------



## mediator (Apr 1, 2007)

^ Ayila! 
Thats more like it...but it is illegal here!


----------



## shantanu (Apr 1, 2007)

dont worry !! i dont mind.. ok i will surely show the maturity you want.. hehe lol


----------



## gxsaurav (Apr 1, 2007)

knight17 said:
			
		

> Apple may be an iCon all over the place but the truth will be different if the Linux side just makes a simple move. Everyone knows Apple is building their so called superior operating system on top of Darwin, which was/is an open source project. My question is If Apple is a company that filled with a crowd of software wonder kids  from Mars with an IQ greater than 140, why can't they build their own OS.



bang on target, it is already proved so many times that Apple just takes from the freely available GNU Codebase but hardly provides anything back to it. About webkit, here is the thing. OpenSource means very cheap R&D which is almost risk free & also costs less over all, Apple found themselves a good way to save money.


> If any Linux distribution chose to stick with any single hardware configuration, they are the next Mac OS X. The hindrance that Linux is facing all these years is due to getting people understand how to start with it, if they start to bundle it with Dell, with correct drivers and everything, it is always greater than OS X, no one need to configure anything just start working. As the Linux desktop environments continue to make progress I am sure it will happen.



Dell is about to bundle linux in there desktops, don't know which version maybe Dell-ubuntu or something like that. But here is the thing, that Linux will be tailor made for the computer or laptop it is coming installed on, maybe even recompiled for it. It will be much faster then other Linux distro's out of the box. Maybe dell will also bundle codecs with it, after all there is no restriction to charge something for Open Source project as long as the code is available to others.

Tieing OS to the hardware is a really bad thing & restricts the users ability to install it on there own hardware configuration.



> All the Mac fans here, can you tell me is there anything I can't do on my Windows box, but you can on your Mac.



i know what they will say. "We do not get Virus or malware". Guess what...neither does Linux or Windows Vista (so far)


----------



## goobimama (Apr 1, 2007)

Heheh...This thread is crazy! Amazing stuff from all sides. Seriously speaking these kinds of threads are the most informative...truth be told.

Love the iCon thing...

And just to add some harmless fuel to the tropical forest fire:
Vista sucks! OS X rulez!!! Down with microsoft!!!


----------



## gxsaurav (Apr 1, 2007)

goobimama said:
			
		

> Heheh...This thread is crazy! Amazing stuff from all sides. Seriously speaking these kinds of threads are the most informative...truth be told.



yeah, i was laughing when i came to know arya doesn't know what GDI+ is , & when he said MacOS X is using EFI since day 1 while EFI was under construction from 1991 

seriously there is a limit of pwnage



> And just to add some harmless fuel to the tropical forest fire:
> Vista sucks! OS X rulez!!! Down with microsoft!!!



lolz  stop doing that. this is not fight club yaar


----------



## aryayush (Apr 1, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> yeah, i was laughing when i came to know arya doesn't know what GDI+ is , & when he said MacOS X is using EFI since day 1 while EFI was under construction from 1991
> 
> seriously there is a limit of pwnage


Ask goobimama whether he knows what GDI+ or EFI is. Ask shantanu_webmaster or any random user here. Out of the thousands of members on this forum, I am sure no more than twenty people know about it.
It is OK. I don't know what GDI+ is. But that does not mean my computer knowledge is in any way, shape or form less than yours. There are things you know and I don't and vice versa.
I am proud of the fact that I at least have the guts to come out and admit that I don't know something.



			
				knight17 said:
			
		

> All the Mac fans here, can you tell me is there anything I can't do on my Windows box, but you can on your Mac.


No, there isn't much. But most of the things that you do on your Windows box can be done much better and in a more intuitive manner on a Mac. It has a more refined user interface.
However, I'll get back to you on this. 



			
				shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> i just understood a fact.. that even if apple copies its some good thing behind that... just coz its APPLE.. you can never appreciate M$ , coz from your heart you hate M$


I said that "Microsoft should do the same and it does." It copies from Apple and there is nothing wrong with that. I hate Windows, but not Microsoft.


----------



## gxsaurav (Apr 1, 2007)

Here is the thing, this is not the first time you have lied & got pwned. Talk about something which makes sence. If Mac can do same thing as windows for some people in simple way, then be it. No need to sing a song or brag about it. Do I brag that Mac doesn't run AutoCAD?

Stop this elitest behaviour of yours. what u do right now are simple things, that alone does't make an OS better.

(online by phone, jogging. Anyone wants Jalebi )



> Ask goobimama whether he knows what GDI+ or EFI is. Ask shantanu_webmaster or any random user here


 
I know they do, now you can confirm it for yourself.



> But that does not mean my computer knowledge is in any way, shape or form less than yours.


 
Right now, if I search on this forum for your posts, 98% will be in Win vs Mac thread or those bashing Windows, or praising Mac. That, combined with the numuras times you were pwned with your attitude & fact list itself proves wether you know about anything other then Mac or not. the problem with Apple is not the OS or hardware, it is the attitude of macboys.



> No, there isn't much. But most of the things that you do on your Windows box can be done much better and in a more intuitive manner on a Mac. It has a more refined user interface.


 
Some people like Aston, some like talisman, some like Windowblinds. It depends on the user. Some find the UI of windows easier (duh....just a start bar) while some find that of GNome better & some find Aqua. It is not that Aqua over Aero will alone make a user do productive things.



> I said that "Microsoft should do the same and it does." It copies from Apple and there is nothing wrong with that. I hate Windows, but not Microsoft.


 
Again, it is proven many times that you are a Windows\MS Anti-fanoby. Stop lieing again, & act mature.


----------



## nepcker (Apr 1, 2007)

> Microsoft makes software for people , not for geeks and PROS... even a child can operate it.. and more than 85% people in world arent mad to buy
> windows.. and + Microsoft made computing easy by windows edition.. 3.1,95,98 2000 , XP and now Vista...


"Microsoft makes softwares for geeks, Apple makes software for normal people." That's what I and many many more persons believe. Windows is really hard to use, especially when compared to Mac OS X. You believe Windows is superior because it's the only OS you've ever used. Try Mac OS X Tiger and *then* say that Windows is more user-friendly. And oh, I haven't seen BIOS since I've made the switch to my mac - when I bought an iBook about five years ago. BIOS is something I've only seen on a PC.



> you say Microsoft Copies From MAC, what did they copy a theme.. that you meant to say...


Pretty much very feature of Windows is copied from Mac OS. From the Recycle Bin (Trash) to the Start Menu (Apple Menu), from the Integrated Search in Windows Vista (Spotlight) to the Desktop Gadgets (Widgets). Aero is copied from the Aqua Interface. And oh, Microsoft throws in a few enhancements. Users can adjust the border translucency, for instance. But Vista is still only an OS X clone — and a slightly inferior-looking one, at that. Something like UAC is already there on Mac OS X. But it only pops when you make *significant* changes on your Mac, not like in Vista when you make *any* change.

Apple this spring will release OS X version 10.5 with advanced features that will leapfrog the just-released Vista.

While the new Windows has rudimentary data-backup capabilities, for instance, Leopard will include something called Time Machine that will transparently replicate data on a backup drive and allow for point-and-click retrieval of existing files (and even old versions of those files).

It's also important to note that Apple has offered OS X upgrades at roughly yearly intervals during the half-decade that Microsoft has labored on Vista. Apple is an innovation engine; Microsoft, not so much.

Now when Apple releases Mac OS X Leopard, it will leap even farther behind.



> and how can you say that Linux is better than windows.. tell me the games which runs on Linux and that too just by double clicking the .exe, no they dont.. you say that windows is copied, give me a PROOF that the works by M$ is copied by macs , it will help me understand that why M$ is such a big company and APPLE isnt.. Dude.. being a FANBOY is very simple.. but the truth wont change by that... anyone will say that M$ is the biggest of all IT sector companies... but you thik its Apple.. Apple is a very good company.. i dont say its not.. but if you coapre it with M$ then it goes way behind it.. 4% is nothing to cover in worlds population...
> 
> If APPLES were so good then why they arent 80 % all over the world..
> 
> M$ discovered the Pnp Support, an infact


How would a Windows game run on Linux? You can use the emulators.
You can google for more information. You'll find out that all MS does is try to make money off others' innovation. 

And as I've said before, market share isn't important. Will you buy anything *just* because it has more market share.

Apple has more market share in the computer industry than BMW and Mercedes *combined* have in the automobile industry. But BMW and Mercedes are both respected brands.

The reason why MS has more market share is because of Bill's unique aboilty. He can turn a technologically-failure product into a market success.


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## gxsaurav (Apr 1, 2007)

^^^ thats it. who fed the troll


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## aryayush (Apr 1, 2007)

I am fed up of reading and replying to stupid posts and posters.

Scot Finnie was not paid by Apple to write that article, he did so because he genuinely believes that Apple has a much superior product. And what you guys think of it is highly irrelevent. Intelligent people will read the article and use their brains to figure things out for themselves. Idiots will be stubborn. It is your choice which camp you want to be on.

I had taken a haitus from the digit forum once a year ago but when I bought a Mac, I was surprised to find it so superbly exceed all expectations I ever had from a computer. And when I was here asking for suggestions, only one person suggested me that I should go for a Mac. I returned because I thought I could rectify the situation, convince a few more people to benefit from the Apple experience.

People who are intelligent, like pathiks, took heed of others' suggestions, used their own brains and most importantly, tried out the platform. Even if he does not like it (which is very unlikely), he will at least have the satisfaction of having tried out something new.
The idiots were stuck in their own world and will continue doing so if they take their advice from the wrong sources.
A Mac user generally has used both Windows and Macs (and in most cases, Linux) extensively and is therefore in a far better position to comment on which one is better.

shantanu_webmaster admits that he has never used a Mac but goes on to say that it is not as easy to use as Windows. _"I have not tasted it but that pickle is sour!"_

And I hope most of you will agree with me when I say this that more than 90% of Mac users are extremely satisfied Mac users and can never entertain the thought of switching to Windows. Can you say the same for Windows? If you are honest, you cannot. That is the reason why most people who are even a little techno savvy at least try Linux. Why? Because there is dissatisfaction.

If a person buys a Mac on my advice, I'll have nothing to gain. He will be the one who will benefit from the decision. So why would I advocate it if I was not hundred percent sure that it is better? Why would I use it myself? Why would Scot Finnie recommend it? Why does Paul Thurrott use Mac OS X as a benchmark in his extensive review of Vista? Read the first post in this thread. And think about it.

Most people who use Windows either have no choice or they think they have no choice. If you have the choice, make sure you make the right one. And since Macs do run Windows and Linux quite perfectly, you have little to lose. 

Sayonara!


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## Pathik (Apr 1, 2007)

nepcker said:
			
		

> Pretty much very feature of Windows is copied from Mac OS. From the Recycle Bin (Trash) to the Start Menu (Apple Menu), from the Integrated Search in Windows Vista (Spotlight) to the Desktop Gadgets (Widgets). Aero is copied from the Aqua Interface. And oh, Microsoft throws in a few enhancements. Users can adjust the border translucency, for instance. But Vista is still only an OS X clone — and a slightly inferior-looking one, at that. Something like UAC is already there on Mac OS X. But it only pops when you make *significant* changes on your Mac, not like in Vista when you make *any* change.


lol.. reminded me of this...
*www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaIUkwPybtM


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## shantanu (Apr 1, 2007)

first of all !!! a simple windows user will know what is GDI+ (graphics Device interface) and many people say it ( Graphical Device Interface)...


> *GDI+*
> With the introduction of windows Xp, GDI was deprecated in favor of its successor, the C++ based GDI+ subsystem. GDI+ is a "next generation" 2D graphics environment, adding advanced features such as anti-aliased 2D graphics, floating point coordinates, alpha blending, gradient shading, more complex path management, intrinsic support for modern graphics-file formats like jpeg and PNG (which were conspicuously absent in GDI), and general support for composition of affine transformations in the 2D view pipeline. Use of these features is apparent in Windows XP's user interface, and their presence in the basic graphics layer greatly simplifies implementations of vector-graphics systems such as Flash or SVG . The GDI+ dynamic library can be shipped with an application and used under older versions of Windows.


 

then, you know one thing that :
*crow's curses cannot kill the beast*

this is a great indian say(kahawat),
ki kauwon ke kosne se dhor nahi mara karte...

it implies perfectly on you MAC FANBOYS....

i never said MAC is BAD, but you all say Windows is BAD... this is really another Cheapshow by you people..


> Originally Posted By *nepcker*
> Microsoft makes softwares for geeks, Apple makes software for normal people." That's what I and many many more persons believe. Windows is really hard to use, especially when compared to Mac OS X. You believe Windows is superior because it's the only OS you've ever used. Try Mac OS X Tiger and then say that Windows is more user-friendly. And oh, I haven't seen BIOS since I've made the switch to my mac - when I bought an iBook about five years ago. BIOS is something I've only seen on a PC


 
You mean to say that windows is very hard to use.... can anyone please tell me the meaning of this JOKE.......

you are the first ever person to say windows is hard to use... 



> Originally Posted By *Aryayush*
> shantanu_webmaster admits that he has never used a Mac but goes on to say that it is not as easy to use as Windows. "I have not tasted it but that pickle is sour!"


 
What you mean to say... you are directly pointing gun at me 



> Originally Posted By *Aryayush*
> And I hope most of you will agree with me when I say this that more than 90% of Mac users are extremely satisfied Mac users and can never entertain the thought of switching to Windows. Can you say the same for Windows? If you are honest, you cannot. That is the reason why most people who are even a little techno savvy at least try Linux. Why? Because there is dissatisfaction


 
i think i am satisfied with my windows and every part of , whether it is programming or gaming or anything, and many of the user do .. this is not making sense in any way that MAC os x is better then windows.. 

Just the advertisement cannot make it better, and then M$ never do this kind of self supporting adverts... 

you said you hate windows (why ?0 and dont hate M$) means you love the mother but hate her child.... why......??? this sounds somewhat unsocial....

just think on this... 

NO HARD FEELINGS DUDE


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## mediator (Apr 1, 2007)

Hating windows is different than hating MS. People often confuse windows haters with MS haters. I hate windows becoz of the terrible experiences I had with it be it 98,me,xp and that too when I had the original xp cd. On the other hand I praise MS for it leadership in revolutionising the desktop world. I like VMWARE, MS-Office etc. So its really important for the windows fanboys to understand this!


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## shantanu (Apr 1, 2007)

@mediator, i left the fight but MAC fanboys are making this a fight.. 

and then you are correct, but the original windows xp youa re talking about is not original in M$ view.... you use it on 10 other systems in a PVt. company.. and then install it on yur system and then you say its Original your licensed.. no buddy!! it isnt.. 

well this yould turn offtopic.. so i wont say anything here....

PS: NO offense...


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## mediator (Apr 1, 2007)

Then what is original xp cd? What if my pc is one of the company's machine? Why did sp2 installed on it afterwards? why is it having elegant brown cover with holograms? How the heck I got it activated online via MS site like 20+ times in the past 3-4 years?

Ur right this would turn offtopic.. But dont think ur the only one who knows everything about MS, MS windows!


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## shantanu (Apr 1, 2007)

NO ! i never said that i am the only one who knows every thing about windows, but you only said that ten systems other than you has installed windows XP , so license agreement says you can t install a  single user OS on multiple PC's... its good that you activated in coz .. you got 30 activations with your key....

now all those are over.... so you arent getting it via net... 
thats all...
Nothing personal but you areadvocating wrong thing..


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## gxsaurav (Apr 1, 2007)

> And oh, I haven't seen BIOS since I've made the switch to my Mac - when I bought an iBook about five years ago. BIOS is something I've only seen on a PC.


 
 , of course U have not* seen* it, none of the OEM PC users have *seen* it either. What they see is a BIOS OEM LOGO, just like you see in iBook, that white color screen with apple logo. At least PC OEM manufacturers give an option to see it by pressing F2 or Del key, in Mac there is no such option to let the user see it.

Oh & just cos you know, PowerPC architecture used in PowerPC G2, G3, G4, G5 uses Open Firmware, whichis much like Apple BIOS, cos it was Apple making the motherboard & assembling the hardware, Apple had all the control on it unlike BIOS where the user has control. Only with Intel X86 CPUs Mac started using EFI after Windows server 2003 was released with support for EFI & then UEFI.



> Windows is really hard to use, especially when compared to Mac OS X. You believe Windows is superior because it's the only OS you've ever used. Try Mac OS X Tiger and *then* say that Windows is more user-friendly.


Attention all people, Windows, Mac, Linux (only ubuntu) user here. *They are all friendly in their own way*. I can watch movies in all of them, I can listen to music in all of them, I can surf or check mails or make a DTP Project in all of them, I can even draft in CAD in all of them......

& plzzzzzz, if dock & finder bar makes Mac easy, then yeah...so does start menu.



> Pretty much very feature of Windows is copied from Mac OS. From the Recycle Bin (Trash) to the Start Menu (Apple Menu), from the Integrated Search in Windows Vista (Spotlight) to the Desktop Gadgets (Widgets). Aero is copied from the Aqua Interface. And oh, Microsoft throws in a few enhancements. Users can adjust the border translucency, for instance. But Vista is still only an OS X clone — and a slightly inferior-looking one, at that. Something like UAC is already there on Mac OS X. But it only pops when you make *significant* changes on your Mac, not like in Vista when you make *any* change.


Recycle bin = trash = whatever it is in Linux = any other OS. Hey is this a copy anyway? Where will the files go if not recycle bin?

Apple menu = doesn’t launches application. It is not a unified place to look for anything. U have dock *&* Apple menu, while in Windows everything is in start menu, programs, computer, documents. They are like Sun & moon, 2 completely different concepts. Any Windows & Mac user who is not a fan boy will tell u how good it is compared to unsorted dock.

Spotlight = Hello, Windows desktop search, Live search in longhorn 4xxx...Google desktop search, does anything rings a bell. Oh better yet*. Copernick* at least that must ring a bell from where *Apple & MS both copied the idea.*

Aero is copied from Aqua the lamest comment I have ever seen.

Aqua uses OpenGL, Aero uses DirectX

Aqua can run in software which hampers performance, aero runs in hardware

Aqua doesn't accelerate Videos playing on screen, remember QuartzGL was supposed to be integrated in Tiger with Core video, but still it was not integrated after all. We had direct show since.....DirectX 5 & 1999. Apple copied from Microsoft blindly here.

Oh & a 3d UI...umm, I m not going to talk about 3DNA desktop or Aston or Longhorn 3xxx builds & I will obviously not talk about Longhorn Plex & Slate UI 



> Apple this spring will release OS X version 10.5 with advanced features that will leapfrog the just-released Vista.


Didn't Apple mock MS for being late? We will see when it is released. Vista does have shortcomings, but do not expect your Mac to be best, even it has several shortcomings; nothing in this world is perfect




> It's also important to note that Apple has offered OS X upgrades at roughly yearly intervals during the half-decade that Microsoft has labored on Vista. Apple is an innovation engine; Microsoft, not so much.


 
*As I said before, the real innovators are 3rd party developers from which both these companies either copy or share (by buying).*




> How would a Windows game run on Linux? You can use the emulators.





> You can google for more information. You'll find out that all MS does is try to make money off others' innovation


Do you know what an emulator does? Do you know the performance & compatibility problems it creates? U sure don't cos U don't game.

By the way about the 2nd comment, does XEROX developing the GUI or Konfabulator making widgets or Tab launchpad copied as dock rings a bell. Obviously it doesn't in your head.




> The reason why MS has more market share is because of Bill's unique ability. He can turn a technologically-failure product into a market success.


 
Yes, isn't he a genius. By the way, Didn't Steve jobs did the same thing with iPod? A small media player for playing music based on Hard disk (RIO, Creative NOMAD.....does that rings a bell).




> I am fed up of reading and replying to stupid posts and posters.


 
PC Configuration with iSight
Mac using EFI since 2001
Mac using 3D GPU based desktop since 2001
Windows running bad
Windows not having scalable icons.

yeah, stupid posts by u indeed. Even we are fed of listening to u again & again. Mind quitting bashing other choices & OS & stick to what you got. Stop convincing people for something. If they want to they will ask u. By the way, isn't it you who himself starts threads like this. Will u stop doing it?




> The idiots were stuck in their own world and will continue doing so if they take their advice from the wrong sources.


 
Reported



> And I hope most of you will agree with me when I say this that more than 90% of Mac users are extremely satisfied Mac users and can never entertain the thought of switching to Windows. Can you say the same for Windows? If you are honest, you cannot. That is the reason why most people who are even a little techno savvy at least try Linux. Why? Because there is dissatisfaction.


 
Mac users don't know how to tinker with the OS cos of its complexity. So many libraries, folder, bin files etc. They are satisfied cos they don't want to look for anything else, reason...after buying a Mac they hardly have any money left to buy a PC with windows (all legal stuff here). We Windows users are also satisfied with what we have but we like to Mod, we like to tweak to the max. We like our OS to work the way we want it, we don't want us to work the the way OS wants us to.

Example, in Mac to sync your iPod use iTunes, let me know if there is any other option? in PC we have iTunes, winamp, Anapod explorer & so much more *choices.*




> Why does Paul Thurrott use Mac OS X as a benchmark in his extensive review of Vista?


 
Cos it is the only desktop OS to which Windows can be compared




> Most people who use Windows either have no choice or they think they have no choice. If you have the choice, make sure you make the right one. And since Macs do run Windows and Linux quite perfectly, you have little to lose.



Linux, FreeBSD....again, I don't think that rings a bell in your head, right? & u again forgot to mentions, *MacOS needs a completely new Computer to run on & will not work on your existing PC.* 




> I never said MAC is BAD, but you all say Windows is BAD... this is really another Cheap show by you people...


 
The problem with Apple is not the company or MacOS, it is the arrogance of Macboys.


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## iMav (Apr 1, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> it is the arrogance of Macboys.


u forgot an important word ... un-necessary arrogance


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## gxsaurav (Apr 1, 2007)

The problem with Apple is not the company or MacOS, it is the un-arrogance of Macboys. 

& Plz arya, for the forums sake, stop starting flamebit threads like this which you start & yet fail to reply properly, bringing same rants again & again from god know so many threads on this same topic.

You know there should be a permanent Mac vs Win sticky in Fight club, cos no matter what happens, macboys turn it into fight club. This thread is 4 pages long, it is a fight & look at the section name.


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## goobimama (Apr 1, 2007)

Wonder who 'starts' these fights (insert: whistling smiley)...[read: ^^]


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## mediator (Apr 1, 2007)

> so license agreement says you can t install a single user OS on multiple PC's... its good that you activated in coz .. you got 30 activations with your key...



Can u tell where is it written?

Here's the EULA. Can u tell where exactly is it written what u stated? And how do companies then install xp, i.e a single user OS on multiple PCs?



> and then you are correct, but the original windows xp youa re talking about is not original in M$ view.... you use it on 10 other systems in a PVt. company.. and then install it on yur system and then you say its Original your licensed


Please elaborate wats "not original in MS view"? If its not original how come their site allowed me to even activate and register the product?

So please lets continues in this incomplete thread.


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## shantanu (Apr 1, 2007)

i answered you at the thread specified by you... and its clearly written in EULA... i dont know did you read the EULA or not... ??


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## nepcker (Apr 1, 2007)

> You mean to say that windows is very hard to use.... can anyone please tell me the meaning of this JOKE.......
> 
> you are the first ever person to say windows is hard to use...


It is hard to use when compared to Mac OS X.



> All the Mac fans here, can you tell me is there anything I can't do on my Windows box, but you can on your Mac.


Of course, you can use both PC and Mac to do everything. But mac lets you do things in a simpler way - you do more in less time. You don't see a plethora of error messages in Mac OS X, neither do a virus or a spyware comes in your way.



> Do you know what an emulator does? Do you know the performance & compatibility problems it creates? U sure don't cos U don't game.
> 
> By the way about the 2nd comment, does XEROX developing the GUI or Konfabulator making widgets or Tab launchpad copied as dock rings a bell. Obviously it doesn't in your head.


Yeah, emulating sucks. And i *do* play games. Not on Windows. Not on Linux. Not on game consoles. But on my Mac Pro running Mac OS X Tiger. My favourites are Age of Empires III, World of Warcraft, Doom III, Quake IV, Call of Duty 2, and Prey.

Yes, GUI isn't 100% Apple-original. But they didn't just rip it off. Steve Jobs was only granted 2 days to visit the PARC lab. How can they copy everything from just what they saw at Xerox? The Macintosh GUI and hte Xeror GUI are a lot different. But Apple was the first to bring out a GUI computer to the public - the Apple Lisa.



> Yes, isn't he a genius. By the way, Didn't Steve jobs did the same thing with iPod? A small media player for playing music based on Hard disk (RIO, Creative NOMAD.....does that rings a bell).


iPod is *not* a technological failure. It ain't got all the features in it but it is more easy-to-use and more ergonomic than others. Conversely, MS products are not the easiest-to-use.


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## shantanu (Apr 1, 2007)

i posted the error messages in macs.. just see that post....


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## gxsaurav (Apr 1, 2007)

nepcker said:
			
		

> It is hard to use when compared to Mac OS X.



Nope, maybe the user does not intends to use Windows then. Windows & Mac both are very easy to use.


> Of course, you can use both PC and Mac to do everything. But mac lets you do things in a simpler way - you do more in less time. You don't see a plethora of error messages in Mac OS X, neither do a virus or a spyware comes in your way.



Again, just FUD. We PC users have been doing more things in less time from Windows 95 era, yeah there are Viruses, but with Vista, so far...viruses are past tence.



> Yeah, emulating sucks. And i *do* play games. Not on Windows. Not on Linux. Not on game consoles. But on my Mac Pro running Mac OS X Tiger. My favourites are Age of Empires III, World of Warcraft, Doom III, Quake IV, Call of Duty 2, and Prey.



Good for you, you are missing hell lot more by sticking to your MacOS 



> Yes, GUI isn't 100% Apple-original. But they didn't just rip it off. Steve Jobs was only granted 2 days to visit the PARC lab. How can they copy everything from just what they saw at Xerox? *The Macintosh GUI and the Xeror GUI are a lot different.* But Apple was the first to bring out a GUI computer to the public - the Apple Lisa.



Do you have screenshots to show the UI of XEROX, again no solid evidence. Like I said, Mac & Windows both copy from 3rd party ISVs.



> iPod is *not* a technological failure. It ain't got all the features in it but it is more easy-to-use and more ergonomic than others. Conversely, MS products are not the easiest-to-use.



Before iPod, these kind of mp3 players were a failure due to size & space. Steve Jobs took a failed product & presented it in a nice manner. Isn't that what you just said about Bill G?


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## aryayush (Apr 2, 2007)

*Lies, Damned Lies, and Bill Gates*



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Do you have screenshots to show the UI of XEROX, again no solid evidence.



In his interview with Bill Gates in Newsweek, Steven Levy pointed out that many of the new features in Windows Vista are similar to features already in Mac OS X. Gates’s response:





> I mean, it’s fascinating, maybe we shouldn’t have showed so publicly the stuff we were doing, because we knew how long the new security base was going to take us to get done. Nowadays, security guys break the Mac every single day. Every single day, they come out with a total exploit, your machine can be taken over totally. I dare anybody to do that once a month on the Windows machine. So, yes, it took us longer, and they had what we were doing, user interface-wise.


This _is_ fascinating. In Gates’s view, Microsoft came up with these features, _Apple_ copied them, and Apple got them into their shipping product first because Microsoft was spending so much time improving Vista’s security. Uh-huh.

Gates’s claim about Mac OS X security is simply false. Flabbergastingly false. It’s irritating that Levy didn’t press him on this point, to ask for a few examples. Perhaps Gates’s “every single day” claim is a reference to the Month of Apple Bugs project, of which only _one_ published exploit, the first, could allow something this serious to happen without action by the user (i.e. by double-clicking an unknown download you didn’t ask for) — and Apple released a security update to fix it on January 23.

I’m not aware of a single exploit in the wild that allows a stock Mac OS X 10.4 box to be “taken over”. Not one. (I’m also not aware of any for Vista, either.)

It’s either an angry, slanderous lie, or Bill Gates is an uninformed jackass.

Most of you reading Daring Fireball know these are silly statements that are obviously false. But what is the typical Newsweek reader to think of them — especially given that they stand unchallenged by Levy?

· · ·​
The hilarity continues. Gates added:





> Let’s be realistic, who came up with [the] file, edit, view, help [menu bar]? Do you want to go back to the original Mac and think about where those interface concepts came from?


I’ve never been one to belabor these accusations that Microsoft has ripped off the Mac UI. In fact, I’ve always thought that the problem with Windows is that it isn’t _enough_ like the Mac, especially back in the early ’90s, when the Sculley-era Apple filed its ill-advised and ill-fated “look and feel” lawsuit against Microsoft. The point of Apple’s lawsuit, more or less, was that any user interface based on windows, icons, pull-down menus, and mouse cursors was an illegal copyright violation of the Mac. Many Mac users shared the same sentiment; that any computer UI that wasn’t character-based was a rip-off of the Mac.

That was a terrible strategy for Apple; they lost that lawsuit, and they deserved to. Windows, icons, menus — these are just ideas, and no one deserves to own ideas. Here’s what Steve Jobs told Daniel Morrow in a 1995 interview (emphasis added):





> I remember being at Xerox at 1979. It was one of those sort of apocalyptic moments. I remember within ten minutes of seeing the graphical user interface stuff, _just knowing that every computer would work this way some day_; it was so obvious once you saw it. It didn’t require tremendous intellect. It was so clear.


What Apple needed to do was work on maintaining the Mac’s lead as the _best_ GUI; instead they attempted to protect their supposed right to be the _only_ GUI.

Apple didn’t invent the idea of the graphical user interface. They invented the first commercial implentation of that idea. Yes, Apple took ideas from Xerox, but they did not copy Xerox’s implementation. Here’s a link to some *screenshots of the Xerox Star UI*; see for yourself. Likewise, Microsoft took many ideas from the Mac when creating Windows (far more than Apple took from Xerox), but they didn’t copy the implementation. And, yes, eventually ideas from Windows made their way to the Mac (e.g., Alt-Tab switching).

So I can see why Gates gets prickly about this. But regarding this particular accusation — that of the menu bar and standard File, Edit, View, etc. menus — let’s take his challenge and “go back to the original Mac and think about where those interface concepts came from”. Here’s what Bruce Horn, who designed and implemented the original Finder, wrote regarding the accusation that the Macintosh UI came from Xerox:





> The Lisa group invented some fundamental concepts as well: pull down menus, the imaging and windowing models based on QuickDraw, the clipboard, and cleanly internationalizable software.
> 
> Smalltalk had a three-button mouse and pop-up menus, in contrast to the Mac’s menu bar and one-button mouse. Smalltalk didn’t even have self-repairing windows — you had to click in them to get them to repaint, and programs couldn’t draw into partially obscured windows.


In other words, the File, Edit, and View menus came from Apple.

Vista is no more of a dastardly rip-off of the Mac OS than previous versions of Windows were. But it’s true that Apple beat Microsoft to market with many of these features by several years. Judging by the internal emails from Microsoft coming out of the Iowa anti-trust case, however, it really does seem like Microsoft’s executives believe that Apple is taking ideas from Microsoft.

That seems to be their way of dealing with the fact that Apple is implementing and _shipping_ major new features in Mac OS X far more quickly than Microsoft has been able to do with Windows. I.e., in Microsoft’s view, it’s not that Vista now offers features that appeared in Mac OS X in 2003; it’s that Mac OS X has features that Microsoft _talked_ about in 2001. Spotlight, in this view, is a rip-off of WinFS — even though WinFS _didn’t even actually make it into Vista_.


_Via Daring Fireball_



@gx_saurav, don't post utter bullshit in the assumed security that no one will be able to prove you wrong.
And before you challenge this column, do consider the fact that it is written by John Gruber.
You don't know him? I didn't expect you to.


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## iMav (Apr 2, 2007)

hey arya give it a break ur not jobs' lawyer or mouth peice ... u like something use it


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## aryayush (Apr 2, 2007)

Strange, I never heard you saying that to gx_saurav.


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## shantanu (Apr 2, 2007)

OK now , i think we all have discussed a lot and made this topic a fight club... we should stop now..


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## iMav (Apr 2, 2007)

@arya: because he doesnt bring in steve jobs' quotes with dates as if fighting a case of copyright violation in the federal courts


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## aryayush (Apr 2, 2007)

Yes, he doesn't because he makes up most of whatever he posts out of thin air, so it is no surprise that he never has any evidence for any of it.

BTW, that whole article is written by John Gruber, not by me. I have just copy-pasted it.


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## iMav (Apr 2, 2007)

lets leave it arya ... ur happy with ur mac, gx is happy with his windows ... its a never ending debate ... i am sure neither jobs or gates is aware who copied what form whom ... its so damn jumbled

coz u actually also have a concept some 1 buying a certain technology or concept from some1 then it becomes urs ... for eg. even if xerox came up with gui and some 1 bought it and then used its technically invented by xerox bt brought out by the buyer so u cant call that a rip off or copying something


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## shantanu (Apr 2, 2007)

> It’s either an angry, slanderous lie, or Bill Gates is an uninformed jackass



who so ever posted the article shoudl mind his language.. that person is a JACKASS


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## iMav (Apr 2, 2007)

^^ arre shatanu unki jalti hai yaar  jealousy


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## shantanu (Apr 2, 2007)

yeah thats true.. those leechy peple are so jealous.. my god.. how dare they abuse him...


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## aryayush (Apr 2, 2007)

shantanu_webmaster said:
			
		

> who so ever posted the article shoudl mind his language.. that person is a JACKASS


John Gruber has a highly respected opinion blog called Daring Fireball. And he has this trademark sort of thing where he declares people who say stupid things as jackasses. Rob Enderle and John Dvorak has been honoured with the "jackass of the week" title a lot of times. It is not something offensive and he only awards this title when someone deserves it.

Bill Gates, with his stupid lies in that interview, deserved a lot harsher criticism than he faced. And before you go declaring that a highly intellectual person like John Gruber is a jackass, you should look at where you stand before him. And that is nowhere.

Bill Gates is a respectable person and he is a role model for aspiring entrepreneurs all over the world. But that does not give him the right to say whatever he deems appropriate in a public interview.


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## gxsaurav (Apr 2, 2007)

aryayush said:
			
		

> Yes, he doesn't because he makes up most of whatever he posts out of thin air, so it is no surprise that he never has any evidence for any of it.
> 
> BTW, that whole article is written by John Gruber, not by me. I have just copy-pasted it.


Thread reported, Just like always you have nothing proper to post so you have started personal comments. About posts out of thin air....i would like to ask all forum members, who said these lines


			
				arya said:
			
		

> PC Configuration with iSight
> Mac using EFI since 2001
> Mac using 3D GPU based desktop since 2001
> Windows running bad
> Windows not having scalable icons.





			
				arya said:
			
		

> The idiots were stuck in their own world and will continue doing so if they take their advice from the wrong sources.


Why is it, that in every thread that you start, u get defeted & come to personal comments like calling the users of Other OS, Donkeys & horses. About evidence, well....I write only from what I know. Not from what other think....

Some more lame comments



			
				nepcker said:
			
		

> Aero is copied from Aqua


a GUI is a GUI is a GUI. There are only a few methods to do some thing. Apple was an idiot to patent a GUI & sue MS for "Look & Feel". i mean comon, sometimes an idea is so simple that it comes to many people at once. Remember, 1994, stardock "Tab Launchpad" which gave steve jobs the idea of Dock

About copy pasting other blogs or articles said by other people. Well....why don't you talk about your own experience just like I do.


> ^^ arre shatanu unki jalti hai yaar  jealousy


100 take ki baat ....Steve Jobs could have been the worlds richest man, but just due to his un-necessary arrogence he is not. Bill Gates on the other hand is straight forward & knows how to collaborate & run a bussiness.



> lets leave it arya ... ur happy with ur mac, gx is happy with his windows ... its a never ending debate ... i am sure neither jobs or gates is aware who copied what form whom ... its so damn jumbled


Rahne de yaar, I have told him many times to stick to what he has...& not to start posts like this in which he gets pwned himself & comes down to personal comments. Act mature arya, we all know how much "Mac genius" u r, sirf mac ke hi geius ho....aur kisi cheez ke nahi. You & nepcker litrally act like walking Apple Salesman or viral marketers. You 2 do deserve a job in Apple for best viral marketing. 

Last time this happend, my old ID got banned due to arya, then my old ID got deleted due to andy


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## aryayush (Apr 2, 2007)

Through no fault of your own, I am sure. 

Anyway, I just posted again to show you that we do indeed have screenshots of the Star UI and it is proof that Apple implemented a lot of their own technology into the basic concept taken from Xerox. A lot of Xerox engineers also joined Apple.

I did not expect you to pay attention to John Gruber's post and you didn't. You can tell others that I am wrong and maybe a few people will believe you but I am not sure you'll be very eager to challenge the likes of Gruber.

I hope this is my last post in this pointless thread. The first post and anandk's comments were not pointless, nor were they flamebait, but then you show up each time and spoil the party with posts that are best described as toxic waste. Thanks for ruining yet another thread!


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## gxsaurav (Apr 2, 2007)

> I did not expect you to pay attention to John Gruber's post and you didn't. You can tell others that I am wrong and maybe a few people will believe you but I am not sure you'll be very eager to challenge the likes of Gruber.


Obviously, why should I challange him. I don't come in the catagory of blind followers who are loyal to one brand only.



> I hope this is my last post in this pointless thread. The first post and anandk's comments were not pointless, nor were they flamebait, but then you show up each time and spoil the party with posts that are best described as toxic waste. Thanks for ruining yet another thread!


Mark my words, you started this thread yourself, u made it a fight club yourself, & you will start another thread like this soon. Just follow what mav3, I & so many other users have been saying for once. Stop acting arrogent. Everyone who took part in this thread knows who started personal comments (again), who act like a fanboy & who mocks others & calls them donkeys when he has nothing proper to speak about.

Even I can copy paste many such articles, but if I was to follow each & every article blindly then there would be no difference between me & macboys. We PC users try to learn things, we do thing the way we want to....we don't do things the way a company wants us to with there hardware.

In the end, we come to conclusion that MS has nothing to fear from Apple so far. Apple is good, but not in a position to threaten MS, Linux infact is in such position due to it's openness (like it can install on same hardware config as windows & is free)


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## shantanu (Apr 2, 2007)

aryayush said:
			
		

> John Gruber has a highly respected opinion blog called Daring Fireball. And he has this trademark sort of thing where he declares people who say stupid things as jackasses. Rob Enderle and John Dvorak has been honoured with the "jackass of the week" title a lot of times. It is not something offensive and he only awards this title when someone deserves it.
> 
> Bill Gates, with his stupid lies in that interview, deserved a lot harsher criticism than he faced. And before you go declaring that a highly intellectual person like John Gruber is a jackass, you should look at where you stand before him. And that is nowhere.
> 
> Bill Gates is a respectable person and he is a role model for aspiring entrepreneurs all over the world. But that does not give him the right to say whatever he deems appropriate in a public interview.


 
hey ARYA!!! EVEN now you should mind your language.. i never say anything that doesnt mean that you can say anything for Bill gates... you say that JOHN GRUBBER is respectable person... so BILL GATES is MORE RESPECTABLE Then him.. remember that.. and how can you even dare to say these comment that he shoudl have got more harsher comments... Arya... mind your language....

*you say i should look where i stand... and what about you.. i wont sit quite after these comments for such a respectable person.. what you think where you stand to decide what bill gates should have got... who are you in this case . you know one thing you destroy your impression yourself.. dont do that... *

john grubber didnt post this article in www.thinkdigit.com\forum but you did... so here you are responsible for that.. isnt this true.. so you must have deleted the abuive words before posting.. but you didnt even read what he wrote... my GOD... its just DISGUSTING man... think about it and NOW YOU *CHILL*


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## gxsaurav (Apr 2, 2007)

> Bill Gates, with his stupid lies in that interview, deserved a lot harsher criticism than he faced. And before you go declaring that a highly intellectual person like John Gruber is a jackass, you should look at where you stand before him. And that is nowhere.


* Bill Gates is the reason that you are sitting in your home, writing this post using a personal computer. *If he wasn't here with Windows & Microsoft, Apple would have never made a switch to Intel & would be over over-charging for their products instead of over-charging. *He made computing popular & easy enough for general public. *Where was Apple before Windows 95? how much was it used? Before MacOX 10.0 & iPod who used Apple anyway in general homes & offices? I don't need to write a post of the sorry state of Macintosh System 7 & 9 again here. 

Ya, true. We stand nowhere in front of John Grubber or Stave Jobs or Bill Gates, but do u or Steve Jobs or John grubber stand somewhere, in front of Bill Gates? *He is the man who made computing such easy for everyone in this world.* Microsoft makes standards out there whether it is an OS, a video format (.avi) or an image format (.tiff, .tga) or office documents (.doc, .ppt., .xls). They are the standard in computing & yeah, you can criticize MS for their mistakes or flaw, but calling them stupid & liar while calling Apple & Steve Jobs the messiah is indeed stupid.


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## dIgItaL_BrAt (Apr 2, 2007)

Everyone flames Vista (and Microsoft in general) for being infested with DRM,while Apple infact is the biggest proponent of DRM (fairplay,anyone??).Also Apple has to code their software for a fixed set of around 20 hardware components,while Microsoft has to support a myriad number of hardware combinations,and they're doing a pretty decent job at it.So in the end it all boils down to personal choice.Use the OS that you are most adept in.There's no point in being a fanboy.


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## gxsaurav (Apr 2, 2007)

> So in the end it all boils down to personal choice.Use the OS that you are most adept in.There's no point in being a fanboy.



Are yeh log mane tab na, they always start such flameish threads. Macboys act like Mac is the holy grail of OS out there. We are forced to make things clear here which when we "Other" OS users do, are called & abused by them.


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## iMav (Apr 2, 2007)

nepcker said:
			
		

> Aero is copied from Aqua


 ... how many different types of remote controls can u have ... a remote control is standard ... it has to have channel changing buttons, volume control same way as gx said a GUI is a GUI there is nothing like copying in it ...

all u can change in a remote is the positions of the buttons same way minor changes in both GUIs are there



			
				gx said:
			
		

> Microsoft makes standards out there whether it is an OS, a video format (.avi) or an image format (.tiff, .tga) or office documents (.doc, .ppt., .xls). They are the standard in computing & yeah, you can criticize MS for their mistakes or flaw, but calling them stupid & liar while calling Apple & Steve Jobs the messiah is indeed stupid.


 +1


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## FatBeing (Apr 2, 2007)

@gx and arya:

Saurav, I've deleted your clone IDs. Any attempt to create more will cause me to delete this one as well.

Both of you: You have been miserabled for a reason; you will repsect your ban period (2 weeks) and go get a life or something. Do NOT create duplicate IDs. You don't want to piss off two admins.


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## tarey_g (Apr 2, 2007)

FatBeing said:
			
		

> Both of you: You have been miserabled for a reason; you will repsect your ban period (2 weeks) and go get a life or something. Do NOT create duplicate IDs. You don't want to piss off two admins.



Same conclusion of the debate , 2 members in shameful misery. If anyone was really learning from these type of discussions , then the conclusion would be different everytime.


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## Pathik (Apr 3, 2007)

yea Gx and Arya... use the OS u want... dont turn every topic into a fight...
this was supposed to be a news article but u people turned it into a fight club issue..


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## iMav (Apr 3, 2007)

but i find these topics very informative cause at their aggressive best both arya (earlier andy who now refrains as he is a mod) and gx come with very informative posts about the features, history and differences between both OSes


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## anandk (Apr 4, 2007)

if everyone agreed on everything, the world would be a dull place to live in !

but yes ...

one must learn to disagree agreeably ...


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## Pathik (Apr 4, 2007)

mAV3 said:
			
		

> but i find these topics very informative cause at their aggressive best both arya (earlier andy who now refrains as he is a mod) and gx come with very informative posts about the features, history and differences between both OSes


 yup exactly.. Same here.. And rite said anand


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## goobimama (Apr 4, 2007)

^^ exactly. If it weren't for these constant fights, the forums become a very boring place. The most active threads are where there is some kind of dispute.


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## mediator (Apr 4, 2007)

I dont understand. First, authorities here dont enlighten others with their knowledge on any subject. Then they don't even post any news stuff. Then they dont even take part in discussions. Then they say they dont have time to read long "rants". And then they take very harsh measures like banning,miserabling which is too easy for them. I dont understand why can't they just atleast give a warning or close the thread! I feel bad for gx n arya! 

I hope atleast constructive criticism is heard here!


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## iMav (Apr 4, 2007)

well i was appreciative of the fact that this time the thread wasnt locked

i do agree that the admins should also participate in certain discussions which they dont (as every human has time problems today)

and i hardly see the mods also participating ... is it like the BCCI has told the players to refrain from talking, the condition for being the mod is u cannot post more than 3 posts a week 

eg: most of sourabh or t_Y_F posts' start and end with "thread locked"  and andy seems to just ignore any thread which has MS and Mac in its first post 

just joking guys ... ur doing a good job of moderating


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## mediator (Apr 4, 2007)

I agree that atleast some moderators r doing a good job and actually helping others etc!


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## ctrl_alt_del (Apr 4, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> And then they take very harsh measures like banning,miserabling which is too easy for them. *I dont understand why can't they just atleast give a warning or close the thread!*



Both Arya and GX were warned by Raaabo in another thread before their Miserabling. No one is banned just like that.


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## mediator (Apr 4, 2007)

^AFAIK, they were miserabled for that before. If such strict rules r followed for making a topic an unneccessary fight club or deviating a topic, then I wonder y no action has still been taken on this thread where a debate on UFO was deviated to a discussion regarding reputes?  Not 1 or 2, but 3
 posts regarding reputes with a full fledged discussion on it including a pic..... (in which we witnessed authorities abusing/playing with the   reps and later bashing others for the same)! I dont think the authorities shud take such harsh decisions when they themselves can't follow the rules!

I posted replies with evidences, mysteries that planes existed in acient times and UFOs relating to it. That was termed as "troll". I dunno y and how they saw it as a troll. I wonder if they even actually read my posts then. But no admin or any moderator has taken any note of that "actual repute troll" till date! Don't u think exceptions r being made and preaching not being practised by the preachers themselves?


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