# Beryl on Linux Runs Cool Effects on Intel 915 - What has Microsoft Done to AERO?



## Krazy_About_Technology (Oct 18, 2007)

Guys,

This time i am really annoyed with Microsoft for this Intel 915 Graphics and Aero glass incompatibility issues. I know many post have been done on this forum on this issue, but i cant keep myself from speaking.
Its well known, Aero Glass interface is not supported on Intel 915 based systems. I accepted this fact for a while after saerching real hard on net for a WDDM driver and not finding any.

But all changed today when i booted up Linux Mint with Beryl. Its awesome man! The effects are smoothly working with transparencies (May be software based, but working properly), window wobble effect, 3d task switcher etc. 
I cant understand if these things work so smoothly on linux, is the Windows Vista graphics system so badly designed that it cant run simple transparencies and a few Pixel Shader 2.0 instructions on it! I dont think so, but its showing that!  

I read the post of intel regarding this issue, and i understand why they cant release an WDDM driver. The real fault lies in the changed specification given by Microsoft for the WDDM driver model. The absesnce of a hardware scheduler in the chip doesn't stops it from running smoothly, nor does the newly specified size of memory tables. Vista beta versions did had LDDM drivers (WDDM now) and ran Aero glass on 915. I cant understand why they raised the requirements if the systems run properly with 1 GB RAM?

BTW i am using vista on 1.6 GHZ celeron, 1.24 GB RAM and a 915 card. Aero used to work perfectly upto 2nd BETA (i doent remember it well) of Vista. But this topped with RC1. IT really knocks me off!! 

If linux can do it, why not Windows, which is also such a advance and great operating system. This is somewhat ridiculous for me (and frustrating too).


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## The_Devil_Himself (Oct 18, 2007)

> If linux can do it, why not Windows, which is also such a advance and great operating system.


 How dare you compare VIsta with Linux?Lunux is maybe a hundred miles ahead of Windows.('personal opinion' please don't start a flame war here)
Tumhe saza milegi.(no aero effect for you).

Yea man Beryl on Linux mint really rocks!!The effects are amazingly smooth without any lag and looks damn cool(minty).Looks like Linux pwned vista in this department too.


Offtopic:I have intel 946ghiz mobo having gma3000 onboard graphics(128mb dedicated memory).Is my system 'strong' enough to run Aero effect?


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## Krazy_About_Technology (Oct 18, 2007)

The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> How dare you compare VIsta with Linux?Lunux is maybe a hundred miles ahead of Windows.('personal opinion' please don't start a flame war here)
> Tumhe saza milegi.(no aero effect for you).
> 
> Yea man Beryl on Linux mint really rocks!!The effects are amazingly smooth without any lag and looks damn cool(minty).Looks like Linux pwned vista in this department too.
> ...



You're getting me wrong dude. I am not comparing vista with linux as an OS. i am just comparing the graphics cores of these two. I am a fairly advance user of both these OSs and use them personally as well as professionally. What i dont understand is Windows Vista's graphics subsystem is quiet comparable to Linux X Windows subsystem in terms of performance in 2D/3D graphics applications. Then how come Microsoft did this unjustice? If the system ran AERO glass in BETA versions, why were the hardware requirements raised? I think this is the problem because of which Intel is unable to release WDDM drivers for it, coz what Microsoft has termed as specification for it is simply not possible with this hardware.



			
				The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> Offtopic:I have intel 946ghiz mobo having gma3000 onboard graphics(128mb dedicated memory).Is my system 'strong' enough to run Aero effect?



I didn't got you. Are you saying that you have a 946 chipset pased notebook with onboard graphics? In that case, Yes, your system can run Aero if you have more than 512 MB of RAM. You can download the WDDM driver from intel's site since Aero is supported on chipsets starting from 945 onwards


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## hellknight (Oct 18, 2007)

Krazy_About_Technology said:
			
		

> Guys,
> 
> This time i am really annoyed with Microsoft for this Intel 915 Graphics and Aero glass incompatibility issues. I know many post have been done on this forum on this issue, but i cant keep myself from speaking.
> Its well known, Aero Glass interface is not supported on Intel 915 based systems. I accepted this fact for a while after saerching real hard on net for a WDDM driver and not finding any.
> ...


 
He He dude!

Why don't you completely dump Vista and go for Linux. Every thing that is present in Vista was present in Linux ages ago, whether be it Parental Controls, automatic backups etc. Actually XP is much better than Vista, it only lags in the looks department, instead of launching Vista if they could have launched a theme pack etc, then it would have been much better. Vista is really a resource hog. Vista Sucks Dude


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## Krazy_About_Technology (Oct 18, 2007)

Yaar i wont say that. Not respecting somebody's hardwork only because they charge for it is not right. No offences, i am just expressing my views. Vista seems like a resuorce hog but it puts the resources to very good use. If you are talking about the less amount of free RAM, i must tell you that dont go on numbers. Yes, Vista uses up most of the memory given to it but this memory is always available on demand in an instance whenever required. What it does is that it caches programs frequently used by you in memory and starts them up faster next time. BUT these memory locations are never flushed into virtual memory. INstead whenever a program requires more memory, Vista frees it up by removing less frequently used programs at the speed of light. Ya it requires you to have 1 GB of memory to run peacefully, and thats a hard fact.

But i dont agree that because of this one should not study and learn day to day usage, administration and development of a platform that 95% of the world uses. You are saying that i should abondon using .NET technologies that provide me living? True, mono project implements .NET on linux but its partial for .NET 2.0 and 3.0 doesn't even exists! Sorry dude i cant. I really appreciate linux for what it is, but in the same way i do it for Windows. I dont find it right to do such kind of comparisions. 

One more thing, i have not posted here for comparisions between two OSs. I just wanted to share what i feel for this issue and my comments on what companies are saying. Pleae dont go off topic.


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## bikdel (Oct 21, 2007)

^^^Gr8 thinking  yea even i was annoyed... one of my systems use the GMA 900 which in hardware "completely suports VISTA".. only right drivers arent available...


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## MetalheadGautham (Oct 22, 2007)

talking about hard work, what's the hard work in implementing features already existing in other OSes like BSD, Linux, Mac, etc snd taking a lot of time to do that? CPU Meter and RAM Meter along with widgets appeared in linux first looooong back. Calanders too. There is nothing innovative in "Gadgets" or "security" or "memory management". The only thngs new are shadow copy, and aero. shadow coppy is a feature that is as easy as the easiest thing in the world to implement in an OS. we can even go one step further and make a shadow partition. Aero is just a theme. I think if you see the developement cycles in Beryl and Compiz Fusion, people develope cool looking in a matter of weeks if not hours.

If I were you, I would try to ditch or re-sell vista, or keep it till service pack 1 arrives, see if things get better, if not, wait again, and In the meanwhile use XP for gaming and Linux for other work.(hey thats what I do, ecept for the fact that I don't even have vista)


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## Hitboxx (Oct 25, 2007)

> Beryl on Linux Runs Cool Effects on Intel 915 - What has Microsoft Done to AERO?


 Go ask Microsoft who's OS run the world's 95% idiotic bureaucracy.


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## gxsaurav (Oct 25, 2007)

Go ask intel why they are not making Vista RTM compatible drivers for Intel 915 chipset & not Microsoft.


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## infra_red_dude (Oct 25, 2007)

Intel said:
			
		

> Q5: Why doesn’t the Intel 915 Express chipset family support Windows Vista Aero?
> 
> A5: The overall graphics architecture and design of the 915 Express chipset family (with Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 900 graphics engine) was finalized prior to Microsoft releasing details and specifications around the Windows Display Driver Model (WDDM) driver. Given this, there are hardware limitations in the 915 Express chipset architecture that would limit graphics performance and memory capabilities when attempting to run WDDM on Vista.
> 
> ...


Apparently, Aero requirements are higher than what GMA900 can deliver smoothly.


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## Help~Is~Here (Oct 26, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Go ask intel why they are not making Vista RTM compatible drivers for Intel 915 chipset & not Microsoft.



Because intel knows that Vista is the worst OS released in its time considering the company and time spend on it! Even a bunch of 18yr olds could have made a better OS given the same time and resources!

I hope all the hardware manufacturers are going to bring in the support crunch which is going to kill Vista atleast for the sake of something better. 

Vista Aero is the biggest joke considering what other OS's can already do with fewer system resources!


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## infra_red_dude (Oct 26, 2007)

Help~Is~Here said:
			
		

> Because intel knows that Vista is the worst OS released in its time considering the company and time spend on it! Even a bunch of 18yr olds could have made a better OS given the same time and resources!


Vista surely is NOT as bad as you make it appear! There are many changes, most of them are not obvious to the eye. The biggest obvious change you can see: Aero, is no big deal (thanks to alternatives on other OS') Prolly this is the reason why Vista is the most criticized MS OS till date; tho its not a bad product, surely not.



			
				Help~Is~Here said:
			
		

> Vista Aero is the biggest joke considering what *other OS's* can already do with *fewer system resources*!


This is cent per cent true! When you see Aero alone you gasp at the effects.. and say, Wow! But when you see a lesser previlaged system giving you more eye candy, you tend to laugh at yourself for your previous exclamation: "Wow"!


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## iMav (Oct 26, 2007)

Help~Is~Here said:
			
		

> Because intel knows that Vista is the worst OS released in its time considering the company and time spend on it! Even a bunch of 18yr olds could have made a better OS given the same time and resources!
> 
> I hope all the hardware manufacturers are going to bring in the support crunch which is going to kill Vista atleast for the sake of something better.
> 
> Vista Aero is the biggest joke considering what other OS's can already do with fewer system resources!


  man if its not arya its always some 1 else with a whackier post


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## Help~Is~Here (Oct 26, 2007)

infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> This is cent per cent true! When you see Aero alone you gasp at the effects.. and say, Wow! But when you see a lesser previlaged system giving you more eye candy, you tend to laugh at yourself for your previous exclamation: "Wow"!


Well, that is what my first quote also implied. This thread was about the eye candy and support for the same. Nothing more. I didn't say anything about it's other features. It's just that I put it in 2 paragraphs. So, I guess you would rightly appreciate that my first statement is also correct. 

@IMav, I really don't have time to argue with you when the things are very clear right in front of your eyes. Now if you still can't see which one is better when you look at it.. WOW, you need to get an eyetest


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## iMav (Oct 26, 2007)

as iv said before .... linux can do everything that os x can but neither can do what windows can   theres no argument abt it .... "its very clear & right in front of ur eye"


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## vish786 (Oct 26, 2007)

The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> How dare you compare VIsta with Linux?Lunux is maybe a hundred miles ahead of Windows.('personal opinion' please don't start a flame war here)


unbelievable someone said it... .


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## Help~Is~Here (Oct 26, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> as iv said before .... linux can do everything that os x can but neither can do what windows can   theres no argument abt it .... "its very clear & right in front of ur eye"



 ... LMAO... Hahahhahahahahha.. @IMav, don't make a joke out of yourself.. 

on a second thought.. forget it.. fanboys like you are meant to be ignorant.. lol

This guy thinks Aero is better than Compiz Fusion? ROFL 

@Krazy, can you please explain to this guy what you meant by "*Beryl on Linux Runs Cool Effects on Intel 915 - What has Microsoft Done to AERO?"*


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## iMav (Oct 26, 2007)

ahead ... devil ur standing at the wrong end 

a joke out of myself - wahts that supposed to mean


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## gxsaurav (Oct 26, 2007)

Hmm...lots of misconception, & I m not feeling sleepy tonight anyway, time to clear things up



			
				Help~Is~Here said:
			
		

> Because intel knows that Vista is the worst OS released in its time considering the company and time spend on it! Even a bunch of 18yr olds could have made a better OS given the same time and resources!


 
Wow....Do i have to mock u again on your ignorence?



> Vista Aero is the biggest joke considering what other OS's can already do with fewer system resources!


 
Lolz...so, u think the only thing aero is a GPU accelerated UI, same as Beryl...u really have no idea what aero is.

Ofcourse both bring a GPU accelerated UI, but tell me, does beryl support hot plugging of another GPU so that u can simply take out the PCIe graphics card & add a new one or add an external GPU to the system & it will automatically start without rebooting the OS cos only the graphics subsystem restarts?

or dynamic memory allocation for the GPU despite of having 128 or 256 MB of Dedicated GPU RAM so that the GPU can use system RAM as a page file?

or GPU virtualisation due to which a GPU can run multiple threads like running a 3D game in VMWare while also playing another 3D Game in host OS?

or rendering & showing the windows & videos on the screen parallel to the Monitor as a texture in a 3d space?

or Using the GPU as a Math co-processor

or Better & efficient resource management of the code so that more work can be done in less clock cycle reducing power consumption

or dynamic clock cycle adjustment so that the GPU can decrease its Memory & core clock cycle to reduce power consumption & heat

or close the unused parts of GPU like 3d engine etc when it is only running a 2d OS?

Wake up boy, Aero is not just eye candy, it is much more. Beryl is just eye candy, try hot plugging a graphics card in a Linux system running beryl & then tell us all here whether it crashes or not.

The system requirement for aero are not much considering what it does. Beryl requires less system resource & a OpenGL 1.5 class GPU is all u need because it is only a GPU accelerated UI running on top of XServer. Aero is everything on its own, it owns the GPU compleately.

All the effects, transparency u see in Aero can be achieved in Direct 8.1 class hardware too & even in some cases DirectX 7 class, but then the GPU will need to process a lot of code, instead of which making a DX 9 based DWM engine makes sense cos well...the code is slim in this case.

Do u know that the quality of games in DirectX 10 can be achieved in DirectX 9c too, but the problem is that if the GPU does 100 unit of work to render a scene in DX 10, it will need to do 150 unit of work to show the same quality in DirectX 9c.


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## Help~Is~Here (Oct 26, 2007)

^^ lolz.. you just explained why Aero su**z compared to Beryl/Compiz.

God, when will these Microsoftians understand what an end user really wants? I mean like who the hell is not going to bother to shutdown his computer before replacing a graphics card? 
Maybe MS fanboys will saying.. oh wait.. I can remove my pant on my right leg first and then put my new pant in the right leg and then put the new pant on my left leg and pull out the old pant thorough the leg of the new one.. wtf? I would do what just every end user would do, remove my old pant completely and put on the new one!!

We don't care what you can do with your pants.. but whatever you think Aero is... for the average end user.. it's just another eye candy.. and simply fails in front of dynamic UI's like Compiz Fusion. Why am I even arguing with you on this when majority of the world has already realized what I said. Forget it.. don't start your normal flame war here.. cut it out.. Enough of you praising in what all ways you can put on your pant.

As for the beginner of the thread @Krazy, I understand your frustration mate, don't change your hardware to run Aero. Run something like Compiz which will put your hardware to much better use.


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## iMav (Oct 26, 2007)

Help~Is~Here said:
			
		

> God, when will these Microsoftians understand what an end user really wants?


 dont need read further a stupid comment as this just shows who makes a joke out of whom .... the company with the largest market share ... how can some 1 be numero uno for more than a decade and not know what to sell and how to sell  help u seriously dont have any idea of what and how business is and how it is run u say ur in some indusry for what 10 yrs .... but dude u hav sh1t idea abt what business is man ....


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## The_Devil_Himself (Oct 26, 2007)

> _How dare you compare VIsta with Linux?Linux is maybe a hundred miles ahead of Windows.('personal opinion' please don't start a flame war here)_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Why is it unbelievable?Isn't it quite obvious.

@gx-hot swapping of video cards hmmmm......very nice but who is gonna try it out?I mean I wont even touch it when PC is up and running.

Hey gx and iMav-please do check out Compiz-fusion(use gutsy gibbon) and you will see for yourself how smooth it is compared to Aero.


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## iMav (Oct 26, 2007)

vista is not only aero ....


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## The_Devil_Himself (Oct 26, 2007)

^^agreed but this thread is dedicated to aero vs. beryl\compiz.

and what other departments do you think Vista is ahead of linux?


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## kalpik (Oct 26, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Hmm...lots of misconception, & I m not feeling sleepy tonight anyway, time to clear things up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 WOW! Could you please give some link explaining and proving even 10% of what all you said in your post?

P.S. Dont mind, but you are known for and have been caught lying many times on this forum. So i just dont believe what you say.. I need proof. Ill gladly apologise if you are able to give me proof, especially for the one that lets you hot swap your graphics card.


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## Hitboxx (Oct 26, 2007)

Hot swap a graphics card on desktop?? LMAO.

How is that even possible? let's say your desktop is on, you open up the box, pull out the card... and put another in..... all without shutting down the system..and what happens during this non-gfx card period...what appears on the screen.....I guess its some patented secret method of Micro$oft.

No thanks, but we are happy with our low brained Compiz eye candy 

EDIT: I seriously would like to know how you swap it though. Please enlighten me.

EDIT: And if your talking about CompactPCI hot swap, rest assured its much more laborious than just pulling out and plugging in, create a runtime image and all that, better off with the normal method.., and as I see it, is only applicable in heavy-duty server situations, not on desktop.


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## mediator (Oct 26, 2007)

Swapping graphics card? AFAIK even a small change in hardware can cause VISTA to deactivate!


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## kalpik (Oct 26, 2007)

^^ Owned! :d


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## Help~Is~Here (Oct 26, 2007)

lolz.. thanks guys.. for a sec I thought I was alone in this "look how I can wear my pant contest" 

When this thread is about *eye candy on decent hardware*, yet these fanboys bring in something more to say that is irrelevant to the topic. @IMav, we all know why MS has a larger market share.. Infact there is another thread running about something that they have been doing all along.. forcing people.. but please don't start your arguments here.

Keep this place clean and stick to the topic. From what has been posted here.. it has been beyond doubt that *"Aero is a failure on decent hardware"*. Argue on that if you want not on how you can swap your pants while the PC is running escpecially when graphics cards clearly mention in the instructions *NOT* to pull out the card while the PC is on!


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## kalpik (Oct 26, 2007)

^^ Exactly.. These winboys have a habit of going off topic.


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## ray|raven (Oct 26, 2007)

Help~Is~Here said:
			
		

> When this thread is about eye candy on decent hardware, yet these *fanboys* bring in something more to say that is irrelevant to the topic.



You said it urself.They're fanboys.Thats what they do for a living.

WakeUp > Open Digit Forums > See if someone is bashing M$ or prasing linux or apple > Bash them as much as possible > Sleep with the feeling that u've made a difference.

Standard  M$ fanboy day 

Regards,
ray


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## Help~Is~Here (Oct 26, 2007)

rayraven said:
			
		

> You said it urself.They're fanboys.Thats what they do for a living.
> 
> WakeUp > Open Digit Forums > See if someone is bashing M$ or prasing linux or apple > Bash them as much as possible > Sleep with the feeling that u've made a difference.
> 
> ...



You forgot one more thing.. 'Also be an MS spokesperson' Source

Anyways.. lets try to keep the thread neat.. lets stick to the topic.


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## phuchungbhutia (Oct 26, 2007)

beryl gave me blank screen ...like  screen of death ..how to go to gui in ubuntu from terminal ... . like startx in rh
so rebooted


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## iMav (Oct 26, 2007)

Help~Is~Here said:
			
		

> Keep this place clean and stick to the topic. From what has been posted here.. it has been beyond doubt that *"Aero is a failure on decent hardware"*.


 it depends on what ur decen is and what my decent is  ..... so it doesnt make sh1t of differnece whether u call it as a failure or no ... im using i love it .... my dad is using it he loves it .... my frenz are using it they love it .... 512 mb ram and no dedciated gfx is by no means a decent hardware ... entry level dedicated gfx and 1gig ram is decent ..... go in the market u will come to know .... and plz dont give the crap abt u being in the it ind. coz in the past u have well displayed ur experience and expertise


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## gxsaurav (Oct 26, 2007)

The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> @gx-hot swapping of video cards hmmmm......very nice but who is gonna try it out?I mean I wont even touch it when PC is up and running.


 
How about adding an external graphics card via USB or ExpressSlot to a Laptop with your laptop running all along.

How about incresing the ammount of RAM available to the gfx card for games etc by using the system RAM as a GPU page file...does these ring a bell?



> I need proof. Ill gladly apologise if you are able to give me proof, especially for the one that lets you hot swap your graphics card.


 
Check MSDN forums, I m busy these days so not coming online much.



> Hot swap a graphics card on desktop?? LMAO.
> 
> How is that even possible? let's say your desktop is on, you open up the box, pull out the card... and put another in..... all without shutting down the system..and what happens during this non-gfx card period...what appears on the screen.....I guess its some patented secret method of Micro$oft.


 
The feature was first innovated by ATI in form of VPU recoverer, which used to reset the graphics driver in case of a GPU failure due to temprature etc. In case of Vista, the screen goes black & u see a cursor, the graphics subsystem restarts.


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## The_Devil_Himself (Oct 26, 2007)

take at look at this gx:


			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Swapping graphics card? AFAIK even a small change in hardware can cause VISTA to deactivate!


 READ MORE


> How about incresing the ammount of RAM available to the gfx card for games etc by using the system RAM as a GPU page file...does these ring a bell?


 This is called Turbocache i.e. the use of system RAM by graphics card.......and it was innovated by nVidia(or ATI) long ago.........and it was highly criticized because System RAMs are far slower than the kind of memory required by graphic cards.It can make your system crawl.


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## iMav (Oct 26, 2007)

guys MS is owned by Bill gates and not God ... glitches will happen doesnt mean what it makes is bad .... if it was so bad i wonder how come it manages to still rule the roost ....


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## kalpik (Oct 26, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> How about *adding an external graphics card via USB* *or* *ExpressSlot to a Laptop with your laptop running all along*.


Proof please (that linux cant do it. You can restart xserver by pressing ctrl+alt+backspace).



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> How about incresing the ammount of RAM available to the gfx card for games etc by using the system RAM as a GPU page file...does these ring a bell?


Proof please (that it increases perfomance. even if it does, linux can do it too, just as it can do "ReadyBoost").




			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Check MSDN forums, I m busy these days so not coming online much.


If you dont have time, dont post it either! if you cany back it up!




			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> The feature was first innovated by ATI in form of VPU recoverer, which used to reset the graphics driver in case of a GPU failure due to temprature etc. In case of Vista, the screen goes black & *u see a cursor*, the graphics subsystem restarts.


How the hell can you see a cursor when you are replacing your graphics card! I mean where do you plug your monitor so that you can see the cursor


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## ray|raven (Oct 26, 2007)

kalpik said:
			
		

> How the hell can you see a cursor when you are replacing your graphics card! I mean where do you plug your monitor so that you can see the cursor



@kalpik
Now thats what i call *OWNED.
*Hats off to mate.

Regards,
ray


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## Krazy_About_Technology (Oct 26, 2007)

Guys, Guys, Guys, i think most of you are going off topic. The question is not about fanboyism. I just wanted to understand why the AERO experience in Windows cannot do the graphical sizzlers on 915 based cards while beryl can, and that too with great smoothness. I understand that MS would not want the new windows experience to be jerky and so they had lifted up the system requirements for a card to support WDDM driver and therefore Windows AERO. 
I thanks the gx_saurav to point out the other benefits of AERO coz untill now i was under impression that AERO is just about graphics accelerated shell. But if its a technology rooted deep in OS that provides a platform that can be used in future to  create a much more feature rich and better user experience, I have no complains. Hardware will always phase out some time or the other as technology progresses. I can somewhat also understand although not fully, why vista needs a hardware scheduler in the GPU.

But the question is, Why is it not possible to enable only the eye candy functionality that is available on the users hardware, ie. why not make it scalable? If the thing is possible for beryl to give effects on presentation layer of OS, what are the technological differences that caused Microsoft to not keep this layer seperate from other great things present in AERO. Plus the fact that AERO worked on 915 in beta versions of vista, and that too smoothly, makes me think about what made them go for this step. Anyways, i'll try to find some more information on this at MSDN etc. Thank you all for participating here but plz try to control your urges to make unnecessary arguments.

I am not going to leave Windows just because i cant get AERO, that'll be very funny. Windows environment does have its own value just like Linux, Unix, and Mac have. At this point of time at least i cant live on using just one of them. I love working on Windows, i like linux very much and i enjoy working on a MAC. Common guys, its a united world, we are technology enthusiasts, we study technologies and we use them for our benefit. What's there to fight on it? 

I cannot say at my current knowledge standard that why would anyone need to swap their graphics card, but the GPU reset thing is good. I once had such kind of problem on my home system where the GPU stopped responding sometimes but to reset it the system had to be restarted forcefully.


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## iMav (Oct 26, 2007)

if u only want eye candy use windows blind and some aero theme ... u will get ur eye candy


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## ray|raven (Oct 26, 2007)

Lolz.As if spending money for xp isnt enuf.
Now i gotta buy a software to be able to change themes too.
Thats one thing i totally hate about Xp and Vista.
I gotta buy softwares to change a theme too.
Or sit and hack some dll files so i can use themes.

Looks like with the next version M$ is gonna lock wallpaper changing too.

Regards,
ray


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## Krazy_About_Technology (Oct 26, 2007)

Still not getting my point. The eye candy for me also include the 3d rendered windows that do not get white when they are busy. By eye candy i mean the features of AERO that are visible on Surface, which are possible. Have a look at the Fastrack to Windows vista that was given by Digit and see what i mean, i wont repeat that. WindowsBlinds does not support the eye candy (My Definition) fully.

This post was for those who can point out the deep technological issues that i am not aware of, not for creating one more thread for discussing the usual stuff. There are plenty of these MS vs Linux vs Mac threads here.


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## subratabera (Oct 26, 2007)

Interesting thread...

My knowledge is so limited here...

But enjoying every bit of this discussion...

But I still don't know if Compiz/Beryl can be used to create cool interfaces for many applications that need one...And Linux definitely need something like that...(as far as I think).

Please continue...


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## iMav (Oct 26, 2007)

rayraven said:
			
		

> Lolz.As if spending money for xp isnt enuf.
> Now i gotta buy a software to be able to change themes too.
> Thats one thing i totally hate about Xp and Vista.
> I gotta buy softwares to change a theme too.


 ;lol: see what i mean the lack of common sense of a person is attributed to as the fault of the OS 

u need to buy nothing man  download a free ware click a button and downlad a theme double click on it and voila  man arya has more knowledge abt windows  ....


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## gxsaurav (Oct 26, 2007)

> In case of Vista, the screen goes black & *u see a cursor*, the graphics subsystem restarts.


 
I guess u forgot to understand the real meaning. When the graphics driver changes or needs to be reset, all u see is a black screen & a cursor on it, like dos prompt.



> I just wanted to understand why the AERO experience in Windows cannot do the graphical sizzlers on 915 based cards while beryl can, and that too with great smoothness.


 
Aero is not just about Smooth UI, its about much more which I have already mentioned. Beryl doesn't do half the things aero can do, its just uses a GPU to calculate the Windows instead of CPU.



> Why is it not possible to enable only the eye candy functionality that is available on the users hardware


 
It is possible, like I said before, everything u see in Aero can be achieved in DX 8.1 but the overhead & code will be quite complex. If it wasen't for MS u would still be having 6 years old technology in your onboard GPU. MS just raised the bar for onboard GFX to give better out of the box features for DX 9c & 10 along with hardware acceleration of Videos & what not using the GPU & DirectShow.



> If the thing is possible for beryl to give effects on presentation layer of OS, what are the technological differences that caused Microsoft to not keep this layer seperate from other great things present in AERO.


 
I don't know, the only thing I can say here is that the overhead would be a lot.


----------



## abhinandh (Oct 26, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> It is possible, like I said before, everything u see in Aero can be achieved in DX 8.1 but the overhead & code will be quite complex. If it wasen't for MS u would still be having 6 years old technology in your onboard GPU. MS just raised the bar for onboard GFX to give better out of the box features for DX 9c & 10 along with hardware acceleration of Videos & what not using the GPU & DirectShow.



then what if someone creates an os requiring 2 sli gfx cards as min req and he tells that he has raised the bar??
what about pc's used just for internet and chatting.do the need 1gb ram ,a dedicated gfx card???what has vista got for them???
ans: a crappy blue interface which sucks and is worse than xp.


----------



## kalpik (Oct 26, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> I guess u *forgot to understand* the real meaning. When the graphics driver changes or needs to be reset, all u see is a black screen & a cursor on it, like dos prompt.


LOL! I never _forget_ to understand! Heh.. Maybe you have that problem, not me! What i fail to undestand is the how can the monitor display a cursor when it aint even connected to a graphics card! 




			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Aero is not just about Smooth UI, its about much more which I have already mentioned. Beryl doesn't do half the things aero can do, its just *uses a GPU to calculate the Windows instead of CPU*.


Isnt that why we have graphics cards? If everything were done on CPU, why does AERO need such high end graphics cards? 





			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> It is possible, like I said before, *everything u see in Aero can be achieved in DX 8.1 but the overhead & code will be quite complex.*


In other words complexity is too much for DX 8.1 to handle.. Which means it _cant_ be achieved in DX 8.1. So please dont twist the truth.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> If it wasen't for MS u would still be having 6 years old technology in your onboard GPU. MS just raised the bar for onboard GFX to give better out of the box features for DX 9c & 10 along with hardware acceleration of Videos & what not using the GPU & DirectShow.


LOL! Now what do i say to this! Im speechless!


----------



## QwertyManiac (Oct 26, 2007)

gx_saurav - Where do you connect your monitor? Up your a*s? I'm sorry, I must say the brain instead.


----------



## iMav (Oct 26, 2007)

abhinandh said:
			
		

> then what if someone creates an os requiring 2 sli gfx cards as min req and he tells that he has raised the bar??
> what about pc's used just for internet and chatting.do the need 1gb ram ,a dedicated gfx card???what has vista got for them???
> ans: a crappy blue interface which sucks and is worse than xp.


  lets try running xp on a 486 and see how productive it can be .... 

PS: for ur ignorant general knowledge u can theme the basic vista too  vishal bhai .... yeh lin boys ko aap ke kaam ke baare malum  nahi yaar ... sorry yaar


----------



## Quiz_Master (Oct 26, 2007)

QwertyManiac said:
			
		

> gx_saurav - Where do you connect your monitor? Up your a*s? I'm sorry, I must say the brain instead.




Couldn't keep myself from not laughing.


----------



## Help~Is~Here (Oct 26, 2007)

kalpik said:
			
		

> In other words complexity is too much for DX 8.1 to handle.. Which means it _cant_ be achieved in DX 8.1. So please dont twist the truth.


Dude, this is what MS does, it gives you false impression. they say.. oh.. it will work on this and this.. when it plainly and simply and practically just don't work on that! Even on better hardware which runs 9.0c!

Now, he's saying Aero is not all about eye candy! I understand the technical aspect of it.. but what do all you of you think is MS doing? MS is advertising Aero as 'eye candy', they don't say aero is not just about eye candy.. and when someone gets to it.. oh wait.. it's not about eye candy..it's more than that.. wtf? Aero is the main selling point of MS to the general consumer not what the hell you can do with swapping graphics card while your computer is on!

This is exactly what pisses of general consumers.. just twising reality to make it appear as though something great! while when you get to the reality.. it's something totally different from what they had advertised!

I don't know what I should say about these fanboys who follow the policy of microsoft by twisting reality.

It simply doesn't work on DX8.1!! hell, it doesn't even work on 915 chipset with DX9. So stop this crap about.. it could work on DX8.1!! what are you trying to do? we're not fools like the one's who think they have more common sense than IT manager swearing at MS for the crappy update situation!


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## Quiz_Master (Oct 26, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> lets try running xp on a 486 and see how productive it can be ....
> 
> PS: for ur ignorant general knowledge u can theme the basic vista too  vishal bhai .... yeh lin boys ko aap ke kaam ke baare malum  nahi yaar ... sorry yaar



Nope..I disagree...
MS did bad ....
I can't even install Vista Basic since I have 256 MB RAM and still I can install latest linux.

All the effects and stuff Vista gives can be achieved in XP (You sure know what windows blind is? right?)

What I mean to say that Windows always release OS which are not 4 this world.... Now do u know exact figure..How many ppl have 1 GB rams and Gfx cards at the time of release of Vista..?
Atleast I didn't have... and also 100s of ppl I know dont have that.


----------



## iMav (Oct 26, 2007)

Help~Is~Here said:
			
		

> we're not fools like the one's who think they have more common sense than IT manager swearing at MS for the crappy update situation!


 its not MS fault that u cant do ur job  every1 has problems while working if u cant handle it just quit dont blame some 1 else for ur incompetence 

a misconception that many ppl have is that o aero is everything that vista has .... and if aero doesnt work vista is useless ..... os x is exclusive to itself vista is exclusive to better hardware ... dont want it dont install it .... if ur system isnt capable to run it doesnt mean that the OS is bad .... xp cant be used on 486 ... holy sh1t xp sux coz it can be used properly on 486 .... damn u MS i want xp on 486 ....  what r u talking yaar


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## kalpik (Oct 26, 2007)

@iMav: why do you people always quote and reply to the "side" comments, and not the main ones?


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## Help~Is~Here (Oct 26, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> its not MS fault that u cant do ur job  every1 has problems while working if u cant handle it just quit dont blame some 1 else for ur incompetence



I've already answered your question about your incompetence to understand plain logic

*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/show...2&postcount=19


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## iMav (Oct 26, 2007)

@kalpik: the only comment u have here is that aero cant run on dinosaur machines where as beryl can ... anything else

@helpless i have already replied there


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## kalpik (Oct 26, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> @kalpik: the only comment u have here is that aero cant run on dinosaur machines where as beryl can ... anything else


Isnt this what this thread is all about? Oh im sooooooooo sorry for being on topic  I also demanded some proof from GX (or if you can prove what he said..).


----------



## iMav (Oct 26, 2007)

ya so it doesnt work kya karun .... bhangra ... its much more than what windows blind (beryl alternative for windows) is  ....


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## kalpik (Oct 26, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> ya so *it doesnt work* kya karun .... bhangra ...


Point proved.. Main batata hun kya kar.. Please STOP defending MS in each and every reply of yours.. If you dont have anything productive to contribute to the thread, please dont post!



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> its much more than what *windows blind (beryl alternative for windows)* is  ....


Please dont make me laugh so much! My ribs hurt (really, im seeing a doctor for that!).


----------



## iMav (Oct 26, 2007)

kalpik said:
			
		

> Point proved.. Main batata hun kya kar.. Please STOP defending MS in each and every reply of yours..


 thats it every 1 knows it doesnt work .... the thread strarter said it doesnt work ... no 1 is claiming that it works .... its not working its not working doesnt mean MS is a bad company or vista is a bad product as i said if xp cant run properly ona 486 it becomes a bad OS


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## kalpik (Oct 26, 2007)

But if OS B is able to run 10 times better effects on almost one quarter of the requirements of OS A, isnt OS B>OS A? What the use of getting all sentimental and posting all sorts of crap over it?


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## Help~Is~Here (Oct 26, 2007)

lol... these fanboys are so experienced.. lol.. experienced fanboys... we are not talking about a 486 fanboy! we are talking about Inel915chipset!! Wake up and stop comparing things to your obsolete memory

@kalpik, sorry your reply came in between mine


----------



## bikdel (Oct 27, 2007)

why r u pickin up 486 whenever u hav to defend vista...

486 production stopped 5-6 yrs b4 Xp came...lol

but intel 915 was released barely 1.5 yrs b4 vista release..

does that mean that one has to jump over new hardware everytime a new OS releases when dozens of better working alternatives are there?


----------



## The_Devil_Himself (Oct 27, 2007)

we need your alienware to run Vista.hehe.


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## praka123 (Oct 27, 2007)

oh am so late!leave 915! does vista works fine with even intel945 and c2d procee?what is that dealy when pressing the wow bubble(start menu)?


----------



## bikdel (Oct 27, 2007)

^^^ haha, yh sure...

by the way, did you know...

i succesfully booted XP Pro SP2 on 22 MB Ram!!!


----------



## iMav (Oct 27, 2007)

bikdel said:
			
		

> why r u pickin up 486 whenever u hav to defend vista...
> 
> 486 production stopped 5-6 yrs b4 Xp came...lol
> 
> ...


 because u wanna talk abt dinosaur configs for vista so we talk dinosaur configs for other versions also


----------



## blackleopard92 (Oct 27, 2007)

forgive my ignorance, but the last thing i knew was that vista shuts aero down when a call to direct3d is made. i.e. Aero is shutdown when any games run to maximise performance. 
but what u have presented here simply contradicts to the above statement! I think the features listed above are of WDDM driver model.

and a note on these points


			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Ofcourse both bring a GPU accelerated UI, but tell me, does beryl support hot plugging of another GPU so that u can simply take out the PCIe graphics card & add a new one or add an external GPU to the system & it will automatically start without rebooting the OS cos only the graphics subsystem restarts?


no idea where this could be useful.


			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> or rendering & showing the windows & videos on the screen parallel to the Monitor as a texture in a 3d space?


from what i know, Windows media player classic can be configured to use Directx9 acc to project videos as a texture on screen. even other good video players do the same.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> or Using the GPU as a Math co-processor


is it true? I don't think so because if it had been, then we would have seen huge increases in encoding/decoding/pi tests as these are primarily mathematical in nature.


			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> or Better & efficient resource management of the code so that more work can be done in less clock cycle reducing power consumption


either MS has really gone dogs or this is false. No one in their right minds would mix a resource manager and a Windows decorator into a single package!!!


			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> or dynamic clock cycle adjustment so that the GPU can decrease its Memory & core clock cycle to reduce power consumption & heat
> 
> or close the unused parts of GPU like 3d engine etc when it is only running a 2d OS?


all these are implemented by graphics drivers.. and have been there since ages.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> All the effects, transparency u see in Aero can be achieved in Direct 8.1 class hardware too & even in some cases DirectX 7 class, but then the GPU will need to process a lot of code, instead of which making a DX 9 based DWM engine makes sense cos well...the code is slim in this case.
> 
> Do u know that the quality of games in DirectX 10 can be achieved in DirectX 9c too, but the problem is that if the GPU does 100 unit of work to render a scene in DX 10, it will need to do 150 unit of work to show the same quality in DirectX 9c.


well, Directx 10 has an advantage in the fact that time taken for function calls has been cut down to half.. and some things have been moved to GPU side. however, all these shifting are important for graphics industry only.

915 supports Directx9.0, while aero requires 9.0c model. that means pixelshaders/ vertex shaders model 3.
why would a UI need such advanced tools like PS/VS 3.0 to render a UI???? 
infact, game developers have only started to use them fully about an year back.they never invested in it before because of lack of hardware to support it!!!


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## iMav (Oct 27, 2007)

^^ thank u for ur last statement .... there was no hardware support ... MS just made sure that there is hardware 

in other words wat u said is the vista's UI is next gen ?


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## blackleopard92 (Oct 27, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> ^^ thank u for ur last statement .... there was no hardware support ... MS just made sure that there is hardware
> 
> in other words wat u said is the vista's UI is next gen ?


it's a step in a nice direction , but it's current implementation requires a lotta more of work. 

my last statement merely reflected on the fact that aero's requirement of Dx9.0c is waay too high considering the simplicity of the snazziness


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## iMav (Oct 27, 2007)

@blackleopad ... in the simplest of words what u meant is that - aero is next gen .... and it uses a technology that has only started to find ground since not more than 18 months .... if thats the case ... then this whole discussion finds a conclusive end .... and that is simply .... vista is far ahead of linux in aero and its UI implementation and hence it doesnt work on dinosaur machines .... maybe the implementation isnt perfect and can be improved ....

@devil i told u bhai ur standing at the wrong end  ....


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## Krazy_About_Technology (Oct 27, 2007)

Well, personally, i cant think of 915 as a dinosaur chipset, specially when Intel  is still shipping it in value laptops. A 486 at the time of Windows XPs launch was a dinosaur chipset and was not being shipped as 'Windows XP Ready'. Plz dont go repeating the difference betwen 'Vista Ready and 'Vista Premium Ready', i understand it, just want to put my point. Surely, Vista is not just AERO, its much much more in terms of underlying technologies and performance. I admire these things in Vista and thats why i am running it on my lappy, its giving me smoother performance as compared to XP. I am just a little annoyed about not being able to try the most advertised feature of Vista even when i have only a year old laptop. Worse thing is, i cant do anything about it right now, since i cant upgrade my chip and i dont have the money to buy another laptop so soon after this.

I know every OS has some annoyances attached with it. Like personally speaking, i dont like the bold and wide looking font rendering of linux. I dont find it easy on my eyes. But linux does have its share of great features that make it a great OS to live with. 

So overall, what i want to say is that AERO or Beryl/Compiz Fusion do not make up the whole OS. The point is that i feel a little bad to be left behind just because my graphics card misses a component.


----------



## praka123 (Oct 27, 2007)

Aero cannot be anywhere near compiz-fusion dude!also the gui can be customized to the maximum in Linux if eyecandy means modding.Aero is just another M$ way of show off that failed with Vista+DRM.


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## iMav (Oct 27, 2007)

sorry sir ... this time its not me or gx who is saying it but some 1 who i think posts when it means ... leopard bhai ne bola toh bola ... vista uses aero which is an implementation of a technology that coders havnt even learnt to use in its optimum wayy so yes there will be hiccups ... but there will be updates ... its the future thoda upar niche toh hoga hi 

hare ram hare ram hare krishna hare ram


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## gxsaurav (Oct 27, 2007)

blackleopard92 said:
			
		

> 915 supports Directx9.0, while aero requires 9.0c model. that means pixelshaders/ vertex shaders model 3.


 
Aero requirs DirectX 9b model, means GeFOrce FX & Radeon 9xxx or above.


----------



## mehulved (Oct 27, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> because u wanna talk abt dinosaur configs for vista so we talk dinosaur configs for other versions also


 So, current hardware for other OS's is prehistoric for Windows?


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## iMav (Oct 27, 2007)

didnt u read what blackleopard said ..... vista is next gen man ... it is using technology that the tech world hasnt even started using .... linux isnt even aware of those things and MS has put em in the OS ....


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## praka123 (Oct 27, 2007)

vista is next gen pffff!#  
Dont u know that Linux or even better BSD kernel are superior?30yrs+ research are underlying behing UNIX model esp BSDs.u want to compare that to Vista?Vista just an eyecandy gaming shell which as of today struggles to survive as with Windows ME.

Why ur wasting time defending a donkey(Window$) that is not urs.ur just a rider.???


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## iMav (Oct 27, 2007)

arre donkey pe penguin ko aapne bithaya tha ... bhool gaye apna avatar .... penguin ka mu kala kar ke gaddhe pe bitha k apna avatar aapne banaya tha


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## blackleopard92 (Oct 27, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> didnt u read what blackleopard said ..... vista is next gen man ... it is using technology that the tech world hasnt even started using .... linux isnt even aware of those things and MS has put em in the OS ....


hadd hai! when did i said these things! stop twisting sentences to extremes to satisfy your own agenda.

i will never compare linux to vista. linux for me is a programmers system, simplicity with logical structure make it lovely system to work with. Windows line is for people who are either too dumb to understand how comps work, or never give a damm to how comp works unless it works ...


----------



## iMav (Oct 27, 2007)

dude im twisting nothing ... u urself said that vista aero uses some gpu sh!t that coders started using not more than 18 months ago which means MS is 3 and a half years ahead of those coders and setting standards and raising the bar for these coders


----------



## Help~Is~Here (Oct 27, 2007)

blackleopard92 said:
			
		

> hadd hai! when did i said these things! stop twisting sentences to extremes to satisfy your own agenda.
> 
> i will never compare linux to vista. linux for me is a programmers system, simplicity with logical structure make it lovely system to work with. Windows line is for people who are either too dumb to understand how comps work, or never give a damm to how comp works unless it works ...


Man, this is what I've been telling time and again, these MS fanboys are really good at it.. which is twisting what someone else said to what they want.. I hope you've gone throught the previous posts in the thread which makes it clear about that fact.. lol.. it could work on DX8.1! hell, it fails to work on 915chpsets which supports both DX9b adn 9c.

And as far as IMav is concerned, he's just a kid who has no knowledge about operating systems or how they work or what a kernel really is. He doesn't even know how Vista works! Hope he learns that soon. And he's been quoting you all along that you said it's 'next gen' and now he's blaming you for saying so! This guy doesnt know anything man, it's been proven time and again.


----------



## iMav (Oct 27, 2007)

Help~Is~Here said:
			
		

> And as far as IMav is concerned, he's just a kid who has no knowledge about operating systems or how they work or what a kernel really is. He doesn't even know how Vista works! Hope he learns that soon. And he's been quoting you all along that you said it's 'next gen' and now he's blaming you for saying so! This guy doesnt know anything man, it's been proven time and again.


 ahem 

looks like pwned again and this time by lin boy itself ... isse bolte hain apne pair pe khuladi marna ... khud hi bolte ho ki vista uses technology that coders hav started using since the past year aur bolte ho im twisting ... kamal hai yaar aap logon ka bhi


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## abhinandh (Oct 27, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> lets try running xp on a 486 and see how productive it can be ....
> 
> PS: for ur ignorant general knowledge u can theme the basic vista too  vishal bhai .... yeh lin boys ko aap ke kaam ke baare malum  nahi yaar ... sorry yaar



i bet you can run linux on that.
BTW if the os requires such large RAM and GRAPHICS, whats left for other programs??
i will try.please do find me a 486 computer.



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> didnt u read what blackleopard said ..... vista is next gen man ... it is using technology that the tech world hasnt even started using .... linux isnt even aware of those things and MS has put em in the OS ....


i think next gen os's must be released in the next gen.


----------



## infra_red_dude (Oct 27, 2007)

Lolz... my daily dose of entertainment 

GX, most of the points you made are remotely related to Aero. They are implemented by other parts of the OS and NOT Aero. I REPEAT that, they are NOT implemented by Aero! I guess blackleopard pointed that out.

I really haf no idea why Aero rendering has been hyped so much. Big deal.

Regarding Aero's requirements, I guess its future proof. The requirements are really very high for the amount of work it does. Mebbe MS has kept somethings in cushion so that when more features are added to Aero the requirements don't change, which is actually good in the long run.

But Aero surely is NOT next gen. Thats what blackleopard said. If someone thinks otherwise then prolly they haf problems with their interpretation skills.


----------



## iMav (Oct 27, 2007)

^^ please read again what leopard said ..





			
				blackleopard said:
			
		

> *why would a UI need such advanced tools like PS/VS 3.0* to render a UI????
> infact, *game developers have only started to use them fully about an year back.*they never invested in it before because of lack of hardware to support it!!!


 i havent twisted anything in this text .... he said aero UI uses advanced tools and those tools coders only started using them since a year back .... because of lack of hardware support .... lack of what - hardware support - hardware .... which also implies that thanx to MS the hardware support will soon be in many machines .... MS took the future and put it in vista though it is not perfect but its next gen future advanced .... where as linux is still behind .... MS has been working on vista for the past 5 years which shows that MS knew that this technology has potential and they used it and now game developers and others are using it .... i am twisting anything .... facts based on lin boy statements 

@abhinandh:jab bade baat kar rahe ho tab chotte bich mein nahi bolte


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## kalpik (Oct 27, 2007)

^^ What he said was, "Why does AERO use PS/VS 3.0, as its required for only high end games. What AERO does is **** compared to what those games do! So MS, even when using PS/VS 3.0 are such lousy coders that they cannot produce a decent UI."

As i have already said, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop posting crap on this forum. Your posts are highly NOT appreciated by anyone. You come here, post crap, make a fool out of yourself, and then you feel proud about it.. Im not sure how you manage to do that.

P.S. @Mods: Please control such people. I have been a part of this forum since a long time now, and i have never seen such people being encouraged until now. Because of such people, i have personally seen two forum moderators, who have stopped moderating, and many other "genuine" members who have stopped posting. I dont want this situation to grow out of hand. Its my personal request to all admins/mods to control such activities, else this forum will loose many other members, including myself. If you want me to create a separate thread for this request, i am ready to do it. If you people think that my request is not legitimate, please ban me, cause the digit forums are going to the dogs anyway..


----------



## iMav (Oct 27, 2007)

ya rite .... tum karo toh chamatkar hum karen toh balatkar ...

@ all others who have accused me .... u arent any better u urselves have posted the same stuff but on the side .... 

jinke ke ghar shishey k hotte woh doosron pe pathar nahi phekte .... accusing the mods, calling others kids, fools this that is all ok with u but when i start retaliating the forum goes to the dogs ... waah waah great logic yaar ...


----------



## RCuber (Oct 27, 2007)

Ok here I like to add something.. I recently purchased a new HP laptop which had nVidia 7150 on board. This came with Vista Home Premium and 1 GB RAM of which 64 MB is shared for the video. My first impression .. Vista Aero .. Why The F is areo lagging in my brand new system?  the Lag itsnt much but still its noticeable .. specially 3DFlip.  neway I did turn off aero cause it was taking a bit of resource. 

Now I wanted to check how linux looks on this machine, I cannot install it so I had to resort to Live CD's , Gusty didnt pick up the resolution or the chip correctly, cause nvidia drivers are not give with it.Then I checked with  Sabayon , there was MiniEdition which came will full nVidia drivers. just poped it in and booted up. I was amazed looking at the response of the interface.. just so slick. All effects turned "ON". all this directly form a Live CD.

My Verdict. 
Compiz-Fusion does run much smoother than Aero on the same system.


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Oct 27, 2007)

abhinandh said:
			
		

> then what if someone creates an os requiring 2 sli gfx cards as min req and he tells that he has raised the bar??
> what about pc's used just for internet and chatting.do the need 1gb ram ,a dedicated gfx card???what has vista got for them???
> ans: a crappy blue interface which sucks and is worse than xp.


All i can say is that 1 GB RAM is dirt cheap nowadays and can be bought for the same price for which u would buy 256 MB of RAM when XP was released


----------



## mehulved (Oct 27, 2007)

Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> All i can say is that 1 GB RAM is dirt cheap nowadays and can be bought for the same price for which u would buy 256 MB of RAM when XP was released


 The thread speaks about making efficient use of available resources.
iMav are you the official author of world history?


----------



## blackleopard92 (Oct 27, 2007)

kalpik said:
			
		

> ^^ What he said was, "Why does AERO use PS/VS 3.0, as its required for only high end games. What AERO does is **** compared to what those games do! So MS, even when using PS/VS 3.0 are such lousy coders that they cannot produce a decent UI."


finally, someone gets it right.


----------



## kalpik (Oct 27, 2007)

^^ What do you say to this iMav? Or can you STILL twist his words to your advantage?


----------



## bikdel (Oct 27, 2007)

^^^ common guys the thing is not between we DIGSters ....... weve been helping each other out since time immemorial...
and then comes one silly topic and people pick it up to wage a war against each other.......

Microsoft maybe making systems future proof by Including all those high system requirements.... maybe some heavy updates are to be given... or maybe just to raise the level of computing standards... actually its because of MS that hardware has got cheaper cuz manufacturers have resorted to making available hardware to support the much hyped AERO since one year....


And then there are negetive aspects as well.....
what to do with systems not supporting Vista.. or more specifically AERO?.. throw them away?

linux definitely has an upper hand.. better UI with the same old hardware...
perhaps its more software based but still you get the eye candy stuff...

couldnt MS give the same GUI but software based? for users not fulfilling the min req for aerO?

because int the END whatever underlyin meanings AERO may have, from end user point of view its still some kinda theme n eye candy stuff...
and just the eye candy bit of it I BET could be usable with lesser system reqs also.....

annyways thats all i have to contribbute


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## abhinandh (Oct 28, 2007)

@imav: you definitely do not know what compiz is.(because you say it to be windows blinds of linux)please watch this video

*www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ImW0-MgR8I

tell me you are not amazed


----------



## praka123 (Oct 28, 2007)

^M$ will buy compiz-fusion and its community if it is available "for sale"-
unfortunately Compiz-Fusion is Open Source and M$ policy of buying out competitors failed!and the core failure is M$ cant buy Linux  
I liked the way OSS pwns this monopolies who make poor new users/addicts/fanboys of M$ that their products are superiror and next gen 
what ever M$ does have is been ripped from UNIX esp network things.M$ made them a mess for user.and with Vista UAC,they tried to copy the UNIX permission system and miserably failing. 

Neither apple and its boss Jobs is better-he considers Linux and OSS as where he can pick things(s/w) and then do not return back.BSD license is the reason.mac os x /darwin is based on freebsd.but apple or jobs never funded FreeBSD  
- like apple "bought" CUPS(common unix printing system-used in Linux/Mac/BSDs)  How can it be possible ?
OSS cant be monopolized.that is the beauty!

wake up!learn how these monopolies are restricting u day by day esp Vista with inbuilt DRM.which M$ will use when they will enter DRM music market.


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 28, 2007)

Hmm....guys I had a bad day & accident, but it was worth it, patch up with ex-gf again & we are friends....

so anyway, where were we? Oh,..time for some myth busing.



			
				Help~Is~Here said:
			
		

> God, when will these Microsoftians understand what an end user really wants? I mean like who the hell is not going to bother to shutdown his computer before replacing a graphics card?


 
Vista is an OS for all, end user means u, me, the workstation guy can very well use some extra GPU processing power while his PC is rendering something.



> simply fails in front of dynamic UI's like Compiz Fusion.


 
What do u mean by dynamic UI? If you are talking about those animations Beryl shows, then I don't think u have seen the .net 3.0 & aero's demos out there which gives the developers easy & very efficient ways to do things....your desktop is all 3d now, do whatever u want. Ever seen 3DNA desktop on Windows? Show me something like that using OpenGL & Beryl plz.



> This is called Turbocache i.e. the use of system RAM by graphics card.......and it was innovated by nVidia(or ATI) long ago.........and it was highly criticized because System RAMs are far slower than the kind of memory required by graphic cards.It can make your system crawl.


 
No, wrong. U r confusing Turbo cache with GPU Virtual memory which was first developed by 3DLabs wildcat series of graphics cards which were able to allocate upto 16GB of GPU virtual memory both in HD & System RAM.

It will slow down, not much because GPU can keep the important data in local memory & not so important data in system memory & sawp as required. For example, a normal map for a game model can be places in system RAM while mipmap can be saved in local RAM. Microsoft made using virtual GPU memory easy using DirectX 10.



> then what if someone creates an os requiring 2 sli gfx cards as min req and he tells that he has raised the bar??


 
So, would u like to still use DX 7 class onboard gfx of Intel 845 series in 2007 or DX 10 complient onboard graphics of GMA X3000? If it wasen't for MS, then intel & AMD would have never released the new series supporting DX 9/10.



			
				Kalpik said:
			
		

> Isnt that why we have graphics cards? If everything were done on CPU, why does AERO need such high end graphics cards?


 
High end, HIGH END? GeForce FX 5200 is high end...from which angle kalpik? It was released almost 4 years ago, not high end from any angle. Do u still want to stay with Intel 845 class onboard graphics supporting DX 7 & openGL 1.4?



			
				QM said:
			
		

> All the effects and stuff Vista gives can be achieved in XP (You sure know what windows blind is? right?)


 
No, u will not get a GPU accelerated UI in XP, it will still be GDI+ based CPU accelerated UI. Means opening 99 windows will slow your computer in XP but not on Vista.



> But if OS B is able to run 10 times better effects on almost one quarter of the requirements of OS A, isnt OS B>OS A?


 
Not always, OS B is just showing the eye candy part & not doing anything else. It isn't using the Laptop graphics in a better way to reduce power consumption by running less code (Example). Have u ever seen how easy the code for Aero is when running on DX 9 hardware?



> oh am so late!leave 915! does vista works fine with even intel945 and c2d procee?what is that dealy when pressing the wow bubble(start menu)?


 
Uncle, you keyboard's space bar key is not working & so is your CPU on 945 chipset, u got a devi sent PC 



> from what i know, Windows media player classic can be configured to use Directx9 acc to project videos as a texture on screen. even other good video players do the same.


 
U r getting it confused, what u r saying is VMR rendering, which means calculating some part of the video to play on screen, Aero calculates whole video in GPU. Things are different.



> is it true? I don't think so because if it had been, then we would have seen huge increases in encoding/decoding/pi tests as these are primarily mathematical in nature.


 
nVidia CUDA & AMD Firestream computing processors, have a look



			
				HIH said:
			
		

> , it fails to work on 915chpsets which supports both DX9b adn 9c.


 
U R A certified nut, 915 chipset only supports DX 9b & that too...Vertex shaders are supported only in software.



> And as far as IMav is concerned, he's just a kid who has no knowledge about operating systems or how they work or what a kernel really is. He doesn't even know how Vista works! Hope he learns that soon. And he's been quoting you all along that you said it's 'next gen' and now he's blaming you for saying so! This guy doesnt know anything man, it's been proven time and again.


 
I would have publically pwned u here, but alas....lack of time.



> GX, most of the points you made are remotely related to Aero. They are implemented by other parts of the OS and NOT Aero. I REPEAT that, they are NOT implemented by Aero!


 
Aero uses DWM which is made in DirectX & uses WDDM drivers to interact with the hardware. They are interreleated.



> The requirements are really very high for the amount of work it does.


 
In what twisted world do u call 512 MB RAM & GeForce FX 5200/ Intel GMA 950 as "high system requirment"  



> What he said was, "Why does AERO use PS/VS 3.0, as its required for only high end games. What AERO does is **** compared to what those games do! So MS, even when using PS/VS 3.0 are such lousy coders that they cannot produce a decent UI."


 
Aero does not require DX 9c/Shader model 3.0. It works fine on DX 9b



> This came with Vista Home Premium and 1 GB RAM of which 64 MB is shared for the video. My first impression .. Vista Aero .. Why The F is areo lagging in my brand new system?  the Lag itsnt much but still its noticeable .. specially 3DFlip. neway I did turn off aero cause it was taking a bit of resource.


 
64 MB RAM isn't recomended for Aero, 128 MB RAM is. Also it is shared sytem RAM & not local RAM as in desktop graphics card. Obviously it is slow. Increse the shared RAM size from BIOS for GPU.


----------



## bikdel (Oct 28, 2007)

^^^ okay you maybe saying right but hey, please to give your sources when you are speaking all that........ we need more proof dude...

and you ever tried aero on fx 5200 128??

well to tell you the FLIP 3d which is the most notable and taxing part of Aero even stutters on a 6600 128 MB ... try it out , you will notice the lag......


----------



## Help~Is~Here (Oct 28, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> U R A certified nut, 915 chipset only supports DX 9b & that too...Vertex shaders are supported only in software.


Yeah, I'm a certified nut, that's why my 915 chipset runs on 9.0c! WTF? Trying to prove yourself a nut?

This one hugely werid statement of your's just proves how much you know about computers. If something as simple as this is wrong, then it clearly shows what ever you have said also implies to be wrong. Need I say more?



			
				bikdel said:
			
		

> ^^^ okay you maybe saying right but hey, please to give your sources when you are speaking all that........ we need more proof dude...



He's going to give you proof that 915 doesn't support 9.0c? I'll give you the proof that he's wrong.


----------



## bikdel (Oct 28, 2007)

^^^ yeah lets see what people gotta say on both sides?? 

but even i doubt 915 supports sm 3.0 totally....


{n know what? this thread just reached a century!!! lol  }


----------



## kalpik (Oct 28, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Vista is an OS for all, end user means u, me, the workstation guy can very well use some extra GPU processing power while his PC is rendering something.


So you are saying that Vista "enhances" GPU processing power?



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> What do u mean by dynamic UI? If you are talking about those animations Beryl shows, then I don't think u have seen the *.net 3.0 & aero's demos* out there which gives the developers easy & very efficient ways to do things....your *desktop is all 3d now*, do whatever u want. Ever seen *3DNA desktop on Windows*? Show me something like that using OpenGL & Beryl plz.


Links please.. I have not seen the things you speak of, so i cannot comment.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> So, *would u like to still use DX 7 class onboard gfx of Intel 845 series in 2007* or DX 10 complient onboard graphics of GMA X3000? If it wasen't for MS, then intel & AMD would have never released the new series supporting DX 9/10.


Why not! If it can run better effects than Vista'a Aero?!



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> High end, HIGH END? GeForce FX 5200 is high end...from which angle kalpik? It was released almost 4 years ago, not high end from any angle. *Do u still want to stay with Intel 845 class onboard graphics supporting DX 7 & openGL 1.4?*


Why not! If it can run better effects than Vista'a Aero?! And an FX5200 is definately high end when you compare it to 915 on-board.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> No, u will not get a GPU accelerated UI in XP, it will still be GDI+ based CPU accelerated UI. Means opening 99 windows will slow your computer in XP but not on Vista.


Dunno about this, so wont comment.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Not always, *OS B is just showing the eye candy part & not doing anything else.*


Isnt that all we expect from a decent UI? In case you havent noticed, we've been talking only about the UI part till now, untill you and your co. barged in!



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> It isn't using the Laptop graphics in a better way to reduce power consumption by running less code (Example). Have u ever seen how easy the code for Aero is when running on DX 9 hardware?


Proof please..



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> In what twisted world do u call 512 MB RAM & GeForce FX 5200/ Intel GMA 950 as "high system requirment"


It was.. Untill Vista came..



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Aero does not require DX 9c/Shader model 3.0. It works fine on DX 9b


Whatever it uses, its not doing a good job 



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> 64 MB RAM isn't recomended for Aero, 128 MB RAM is. Also it is shared sytem RAM & not local RAM as in desktop graphics card. Obviously it is slow. Increse the shared RAM size from BIOS for GPU.


Shared memory in graphics cards, not a good idea!

P.S. GX, you act as if you are the lead developer of Vista/Aero. Read the thread title again, and honestly tell me if what we are discussing is remotely related to the topic!

Oh, and im STILL waiting for the proofs to all the mumbo jumbo you said in your previous reply! (especially the hot swap graphics cars thingy..).. Oh.. and you STILL didnt tell me how you can see the cursor on the monitor even when the monitor is unplugged  Even if we believe you for a moment, even then, i'd HAVE to restart the macine after installing new drivers.. so what the heck.. there goes my swankey new hot-swap-graphics-card-while-the-system-is-on feature  To think of it, when we say that linux does not need reboots, you say you dont care cause you anyway reboot your PC once a day.. You say that's only usefull for server use, not desktop use.. And now you talk of hot swap graphics cards.. Its really funny! I'd like to quote iMav here:



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> ya rite .... tum karo toh chamatkar hum karen toh balatkar ...



LOL!


----------



## iMav (Oct 28, 2007)

*www.3dna.net/


----------



## kalpik (Oct 28, 2007)

Good! At least we have started seeing some links now! 

But AFAIK, this thing is just like a game running on top of windows.. Where does all the mumbo jumbo about Aero, which GX enlightened us with, fit in? It clearly says it runs on XP/2000.


----------



## vish786 (Oct 28, 2007)

Help~Is~Here said:
			
		

> gx_saurav said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i'm just wondering how is my 915 mobo running directx 9*C*,  i guess my mobo was specially made for  supporting dx 9*C*


----------



## Garbage (Oct 28, 2007)

vish786 said:
			
		

> i'm just wondering how is my 915 mobo running directx 9*C*,  i guess my mobo was specially made for  supporting dx 9*C*


Thats becoz of Xtra knowledge...


----------



## iMav (Oct 28, 2007)

kalpik said:
			
		

> Good! At least we have started seeing some links now!
> 
> But AFAIK, this thing is just like a game running on top of windows.. Where does all the mumbo jumbo about Aero, which GX enlightened us with, fit in? It clearly says it runs on XP/2000.





			
				kalpik said:
			
		

> gx_saurav said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## kalpik (Oct 28, 2007)

Thank you for the link iMav


----------



## bikdel (Oct 28, 2007)

vish786 said:
			
		

> i'm just wondering how is my 915 mobo running directx 9*C*,  i guess my mobo was specially made for  supporting dx 9*C*




ONE CORRECTION THOUGH...

you can run DX 9.0c on DX 9.0b hardware...

hell, i installed dx 9c on a system with 1 mb SIS GFX card...

so you get it wrong... having DX 9.0 c and supporting DX 9.0 c are totally different things...... 

The restrictions on installing new DX are only with Windows Vista in which you cannot even install DX 10 on any older non-supporting hardware...
For those hardware there is separate 9.0 L version

though this is a seriuos drawback... meaning future DX 10 exclusive games and apps wont work with even high end 9.0 c hardware such as 7950 x 2 in SLI.. a total of 4 Gfx cards... lol........ HEY I JUST POINTED OUT A BOOOO BY MS !! LOL 



hope that clears things out


----------



## QwertyManiac (Oct 28, 2007)

gx_saurav - You still owe the world an explanation to where the end of your monitor cable lies.


----------



## vish786 (Oct 28, 2007)

bikdel said:
			
		

> so you get it wrong... having DX 9.0 c and supporting DX 9.0 c are totally different things......


No wonder, the expected reply 





			
				QwertyManiac said:
			
		

> gx_saurav - You still owe the world an explanation to where the end of your monitor cable lies.


 didnt u already say earlier QwertyManiac... in A$$


----------



## kalpik (Oct 28, 2007)

^^ Naw.. he's actually right Vish786! Even i have DX10 installed on Vista, does not mean that my FX5700 supports it!


----------



## bikdel (Oct 28, 2007)

^^^ man trust me, im not for MS anyday.... i m all for linux and beryl doods....... hehe


----------



## QwertyManiac (Oct 28, 2007)

Yup, Bikdel is right of course, the ability to run a version of Dx doesn't make the chipset completely supportive of it.


----------



## bikdel (Oct 28, 2007)

perhaps vish786 thought i was one more 'fanboy'  and he desperately wanted to put onr more fanboy down> lol.... look at my signature guys.... put some light?....... hehe.... anyways lets get more on topic..........


----------



## vish786 (Oct 28, 2007)

bikdel said:
			
		

> perhaps vish786 thought i was one more 'fanboy'  and he desperately wanted to put onr more fanboy down> lol.... look at my signature guys.... put some light?....... hehe.... anyways lets get more on topic..........


 no ur wrong, i'm not against anybody here, i just wanted to make my point about the 915 mobo... *i hardly care who's among which side , m on the side of JUSTICE 
*


----------



## bikdel (Oct 28, 2007)

^^
So prove this statement wrong :

I have Direct X 9.0c Installed on a system with 1 MB SiS PCI Graphics Card which was manufatured 9 years ago.


----------



## vish786 (Oct 28, 2007)

wth!!! am i answering sum EXam question paper.


----------



## iMav (Oct 28, 2007)

i decided and promised that i wont post here  but this is amazing 

 lin boys fighting amongst themselves


----------



## vish786 (Oct 29, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> i decided and promised that i wont post here  but this is amazing


just an excuse, after loosing the game, isnt it iMav


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 29, 2007)

bikdel said:
			
		

> ^^^ okay you maybe saying right but hey, please to give your sources when you are speaking all that........ we need more proof dude...


 
Search on google & be a regular at MSDN forum & technet web casts abou Vista's technologies, & u will know everything.



> and you ever tried aero on fx 5200 128??


 
Yup, I was using it till recently on my GeForce FX 5900XT with 128 MB RAM & now 6600GT with 256 MB RAM



> well to tell you the FLIP 3d which is the most notable and taxing part of Aero even stutters on a 6600 128 MB ... try it out , you will notice the lag......


 
I wonder why I don't face any lag in here...must be my God send PC...Sai-Yo 



> Yeah, I'm a certified nut, that's why my 915 chipset runs on 9.0c! WTF? Trying to prove yourself a nut?


 
Lolz...yup u r, go & read the documentation for Intel GMA 900 graphics chipset & whether it supports DirectX 9b or Direct 9c in hardware. It even lacks a hardware vertex shading unit dude.



> So you are saying that Vista "enhances" GPU processing power?


 
Yup, with Vista & DirectX 10 u can use the GPU to do general purpose math calculation easily which is available in the form of nVidia CUDA technology & AMD Firestream GPUs.



> Links please.. I have not seen the things you speak of, so i cannot comment.


 
Google plz, I m not prakash.



> Why not! If it can run better effects than Vista'a Aero?!


 
Lolz....kalpik, plz..don't argue on this. DX 7 uses fixed function shaders while DX 8.1 & 9 uses programmable., if u learn anything about graphics then u will know that it is very easy for developers to make things in DX 9 then DX 7/8 cos now the GPU is compleately programmable.

Installing DirectX 9c runtime doesn't mean you GPU will be able to show DX 9c effects if it is incapable. GeForce FX for example is a DX 9b based graphics card which will not show DX 9c class effects & quality.


----------



## iMav (Oct 29, 2007)

loosing  

i got some pvt. msgs thats all i can say  and loosing  

1 u say that it uses next gen technology then u say i lost .... bhai pehle khud socha karo kya likhun kya kikha hai baadmein bola karo  loosing 

o something i didnt reply earlier ... vista on fx 5200 256 ... wrks like a charm


----------



## Garbage (Oct 29, 2007)

> > Links please.. I have not seen the things you speak of, so i cannot comment.
> 
> 
> Google plz, I m not prakash.



It's nice yaar... U say something, & if we want proof then say GOOGLE URSELF !!!
If we found something else, then say "na..naa... Not that one... Search again..."  

WTH !!! 

And please stop making useless comments !!!


----------



## QwertyManiac (Oct 29, 2007)

gx_saurav - Google yourself *PyGPU* and *SciPy*. You're one ignorant ... sigh, I'll save it for your reply.

And how the hell can something 'enchance' a hardware? The computer can't take drugs and steroids like you do. It has its limits and intelligence, unlike you who has limited intelligence.


----------



## kalpik (Oct 29, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Search on google & be a regular at MSDN forum & technet web casts abou Vista's technologies, & u will know everything.


 So we all are here just for fight club? Nice reply.. Google it! 



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Yup, with Vista & DirectX 10 u can use the GPU to do general purpose math calculation easily which is available in the form of nVidia CUDA technology & AMD Firestream GPUs.


 Please.. No software can "enhance" hardware..



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Google plz, I m not prakash.


 Dont have the time, nor the inclination.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Lolz....kalpik, plz..don't argue on this. DX 7 uses fixed function shaders while DX 8.1 & 9 uses programmable., if u learn anything about graphics then u will know that it is very easy for developers to make things in DX 9 then DX 7/8 cos now the GPU is compleately programmable.


 Quite possible! But if you look at Beryl/Compiz, it seems OpenGL is far more capable than DX! Inspite of the fact that DX supports all this mumbo jumbo, still Beryl/Compiz outsmarts it in effects! (And AFAIK, DX is there for the eye candy, not to do math..). So please dont say look! DX can do math! Can OpenGL do it?



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Installing DirectX 9c runtime doesn't mean you GPU will be able to show DX 9c effects if it is incapable. GeForce FX for example is a DX 9b based graphics card which will not show DX 9c class effects & quality.


 Agreed!

P.S. I am STILL waiting for my links.. And i am not gonna google it..


----------



## ray|raven (Oct 29, 2007)

Google It.!!

Thats what fanboys say when they say somethey totally extravagant or they have no idea what they are talking about.
They think u might not have the time or the inclination to do it and hence cant deny them.On the other hand if u do....u might not go through the hundred thousand results that google comes up with.
So they can jus say.....
Did u check the 991,165 th page...Haha u didnt and the answer's there.

Regards,
ray


----------



## iMav (Oct 29, 2007)

can u prove him wrong with a link ... if he cant provide u a link for whatever reason and u r so freaking sure of what ur saying u provide a link and pwn him  if not then .... well shut up


----------



## kalpik (Oct 29, 2007)

^^ I am GOD.. Prove me wrong with a link.. Else shut up.


----------



## iMav (Oct 29, 2007)

thats pretty simple i dont need a link for that .... Ubuntu is linux for humans .... God doesnt use linux which is for humans coz he aint human ... so if ur using ubuntu then u cant be God  simple


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Oct 29, 2007)

@Kalpik , DX10 is definitely more powerful and easier to use than OpenGL and has better performance too . That's why we see that most PC game developers use DX to program their games .

Also , the greatest advantage is that by using DX you can make games for both the PC and Xbox 360(it runs a modified version of DX) with essentially the same codebase thereby reducing development time and cost.

Also , having a great product does not necessarily means that the software made using it will be great too , that depends on the programmer who uses the product . So if Aero does not run on low-end hardware then it is the choice of the programmer not the deficiency of DX


----------



## ray|raven (Oct 29, 2007)

Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> Also , the greatest advantage is that by using DX you can make games for both the PC and Xbox 360(it runs a modified version of DX) with essentially the same codebase thereby reducing development time and cost.



if the developers used OpenGL it would be easier to be ported to Windows,Linux,Mac OS and PS3
Now isnt that a greater advantage?

And for iMav the source : *en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenGL#Specification

Regards,
ray


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 29, 2007)

rayraven said:
			
		

> if the developers used OpenGL it would be easier to be ported to Windows,Linux,Mac OS and PS3
> Now isnt that a greater advantage?


 
Add to it that the developer needs to optimize the OpenGL code for each & every platform too which he doesn't need to in case of using DirectX for Windows. DirectX is made for Windows like a native symbian app is made for Symbian OS. It runs faster because it is native


----------



## ray|raven (Oct 29, 2007)

Dude,I Dont know where u get ur info or if u make it up.
From Wikipedia:


> OpenGL was designed to be graphic output-only: it provides only rendering functions. The core API has no concept of windowing systems, audio, printing to the screen, keyboard/mouse or other input devices. While this seems restrictive at first, it allows the code that does the rendering to be completely independent of the operating system it is running on, allowing cross-platform development.


Which means no need of any optimization AFAIK.
Source:*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenGL#Higher_level_functionality

Regards,
ray


----------



## iMav (Oct 29, 2007)

kalpik said:
			
		

> ^^ I am GOD.. Prove me wrong with a link.. Else shut up.


 i accept ur god now do u agree everything gx said is true without a link  pwnage dude ... think before typing  

now that i accepted ur *g*od without a link u have to agree with everything gx has ever said without asking for a link to prove


----------



## Help~Is~Here (Oct 29, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Lolz...yup u r, go & read the documentation for Intel GMA 900 graphics chipset & whether it supports DirectX 9b or Direct 9c in hardware. It even lacks a hardware vertex shading unit dude.



Dude, I'm very well aware that 915 doesn't have harware vertex shader units but that doesn't imply that 915 doesn't support 9.0c. If one of the components that directx 9.0c supports is not supported by the hardware, it doesn't mean the entire thing is not supported.

I'll give you the example, on a PC running Vista, just becuase your PC is not capable of running one component of Vista which is Aero, it doesn't mean your PC doesn't support vista.

So, what I pointed out was your generalization of the fact that 915 doesn't  support 9.0c at all. So, rather than being vague, if you had just told that it doens't support one component rather than the entire thing would have made more sense and that reply wouldn't have been necessary.


----------



## iMav (Oct 29, 2007)

i was just going thru the thread and u seemed to be all laughing at gx wen he was talking abt 915 and dx 9 i saw 'c' in red and big font size and all sorts mockery .... are u guys back- tracking on ur statements


----------



## bikdel (Oct 29, 2007)

@ imav.... im not a inboy, neither am i a MS fanboy like you dood...

im a PC fanboy on the whole... 

and guys, hardware supporting 9.0b running 9.0c will be exactly similar to when it ran the older one...

actually complet support for 9.0b and partial support for 9.0c will mean the same...

but anyways its not exactly DX support what we should be actually talkin about...



its AERO vs BERYL...


----------



## iMav (Oct 29, 2007)

dude no need to explain u cudv simply said 3 words - i am pwned


----------



## vish786 (Oct 29, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> thats pretty simple i dont need a link for that .... *Ubuntu is linux for humans .... God doesnt use linux which is for humans coz he aint human ... so if ur using ubuntu then u cant be God*  simple


* This is how u argue...* *Linux is for humans... &... Windows is for God.... What crap is this imav, u would be kicked out in a companies GD before it ends.*


----------



## iMav (Oct 29, 2007)

vish786 said:
			
		

> * This is how u argue...* *Linux is for humans... &... Windows is for God.... What crap is this imav, u would be kicked out in a companies GD before it ends.*


 yo dont talk abt GDs with me kiddo ...  ur understanding baffles me ... did u even read what kalpik had said in the post abv  GDs 

read kalpik's post then look at his avatar and then read my post it just might make some sense to ur oh so great GD brain on which ur sitting  GDs  damn man  i seriously miss arya & goobi someitmes their understanding of sarcasm and punns is better than these lin boys and a chit chat with them is more fun as a result


----------



## blackleopard92 (Oct 29, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> No, wrong. U r confusing Turbo cache with GPU Virtual memory which was first developed by 3DLabs wildcat series of graphics cards which were able to allocate upto 16GB of GPU virtual memory both in HD & System RAM.
> 
> It will slow down, not much because GPU can keep the important data in local memory & not so important data in system memory & sawp as required. For example, a normal map for a game model can be places in system RAM while mipmap can be saved in local RAM. Microsoft made using virtual GPU memory easy using DirectX 10.


wrong actually. storing any sort of data which would finally be used to draw the screen would cause hiccups. and the use you identified is the reason why games require X amount of system RAM and Y amounts of Graphics RAM.
The only advantage i can see is that the memory management would move from programmers side to OS side.. now whether it's a feature/liability would be decided in the feature. personally, i don't think any Game developer is gonna use it as memory management systems are customised for each game.




			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> No, u will not get a GPU accelerated UI in XP, it will still be GDI+ based CPU accelerated UI. Means opening 99 windows will slow your computer in XP but not on Vista.


yeah. this is true, but only for UI's that call GDI+ functions. if a UI uses Directx/ openGL features, then it would be HW accelerated.




			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> U r getting it confused, what u r saying is VMR rendering, which means calculating some part of the video to play on screen, Aero calculates whole video in GPU. Things are different.


could be. but the same thing happen with compiz-fusion.




			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> nVidia CUDA & AMD Firestream computing processors, have a look.


lolz. and how does these technologies have anything to do with AERO???

Both of them are independent technologies which have their own API's and SDKs.

links to CUDA.
*developer.nvidia.com/object/cuda.html
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CUDA



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Aero uses DWM which is made in DirectX & uses WDDM drivers to interact with the hardware. They are interreleated.


u said it.
If anything uses any technology doesn't mean that they inherit their abilities. AERO is a Windows Decorator... and will be unless MS wanna screw themselves. it uses WDDM to power it.. it isn't WDDM!



			
				Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> @Kalpik , DX10 is definitely more powerful and easier to use than OpenGL and has better performance too . That's why we see that most PC game developers use DX to program their games .
> 
> Also , the greatest advantage is that by using DX you can make games for both the PC and Xbox 360(it runs a modified version of DX) with essentially the same codebase thereby reducing development time and cost.
> 
> Also , having a great product does not necessarily means that the software made using it will be great too , that depends on the programmer who uses the product . So if Aero does not run on low-end hardware then it is the choice of the programmer not the deficiency of DX



both APIs are equivalent in their abilities.. neither is powerful than other. please don't indulge in these statements, doesn't do any good for the speaker.
the reason why most game developers make games in Directx is because of the past.. read something about Dx history.. reveals to what huge levels did MS went to popularise Directx...
Directx runs on windows and xbox360.. opengl runs on Windows, linux , PS1, PS2, PS3, PSP, N64, GC, Wii, and DS. not to mention that pixar and other animation studios use Opengl, research papers are published in Opengl, military level reality simulators........ OpenGL usage is far to wide to be compared with Directx.



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> thats pretty simple i dont need a link for that .... Ubuntu is linux for humans .... God doesnt use linux which is for humans coz he aint human ... so if ur using ubuntu then u cant be God  simple


lolz!!! made my day.. nice reply!


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 29, 2007)

Help~Is~Here said:
			
		

> Dude, I'm very well aware that 915 doesn't have harware vertex shader units but that doesn't imply that 915 doesn't support 9.0c. If one of the components that directx 9.0c supports is not supported by the hardware, it doesn't mean the entire thing is not supported.


 
Lolz...Pixel shader 3.0 are not there in GMA 900, this has to be in hardware. Do u even know what u r talking about.



			
				blackleopard92 said:
			
		

> The only advantage i can see is that the memory management would move from programmers side to OS side.. now whether it's a feature/liability would be decided in the feature. personally,


 
Not quite, OS manages the graphics RAM now in case of Vista which is always better.


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## vish786 (Oct 29, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> .... with me kiddo ...


 ... feels so young 2 me ... we all know who's the kid here ... pleadin & cryin


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## kalpik (Oct 29, 2007)

Since this thread has gotten out of hand, i will not reply here at any cost. I would like to summarize  by quoting the thread title:



> *Beryl* on Linux *Runs Cool Effects on Intel 915* - What has Microsoft Done to AERO?


I know iMav will cry that i left because i got pwnd, but then i guess 99.99% of this forum knows right from wrong! And as the rest of the forum, im gonna add gx_saurav and iMav to my ignore list. Any further personal comments/remarks would be promptly reported to mods/admins and ill make sure necessary action is taken.


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## iMav (Oct 29, 2007)

kya hua didnt find ur links .... lost ur bookmarks


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## gxsaurav (Oct 29, 2007)

kalpik said:
			
		

> im gonna add gx_saurav and iMav to my ignore list. Any further personal comments/remarks would be promptly reported to mods/admins and ill make sure necessary action is taken.


 
Yo, what did I do   U r the only Linux user i respect in this forum


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## kalpik (Oct 29, 2007)

^^ Heh.. actually nothing..  Its just irritating when people take threads offtopic for nothing!


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## iMav (Oct 29, 2007)

kalpik said:
			
		

> ^^ Heh.. actually nothing..  Its just irritating when people take threads offtopic for nothing!


 arre chill re ... aisa hi hotta hai ... even din used to swear at us for taking threads off topic but later he too realised that it is inevitable


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## NucleusKore (Oct 29, 2007)

Why does installation of compiz fusion break KDE shortcuts, its so irritating when Alt+F2 does not work anymore


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## kalpik (Oct 29, 2007)

^^ Dunno, im a gnome user, but im sure you'd get some answers if you post in the right section, cause most people (including me from now on) just ignore such threads..


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## bikdel (Oct 29, 2007)

hey... guys i wanted to ask one thing...

what are the minimum system requirements of BERYL??

will the Intel 82810E grafix suffice? this is intel's onboard used in Pentium 3 and Celeron Line-up .. not much expectations but still!!

any ideas?


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## praka123 (Oct 29, 2007)

beryl is over.now whole project is again called as compiz or compiz-fusion.afair it needs 256MB RAM for smooth sail.


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## infra_red_dude (Oct 29, 2007)

Thats the most minimum I guess (i810). You will however need to share a good amount of RAM for that. I'm not sure about everything that you'll be able to run on it but surely not the advanced effects!

Edit: But prakash, Beryl is better than CF on older hardware.


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## bikdel (Oct 30, 2007)

^^^
well afaik this chipset has no option to set shared memory for onboard.....
the actual shared is maybe seen through DXDIAG... but it shows 4 MB
...

whereas the RAM in System Properties Dialog Box is 256 MB intact...
i mean should hav been 252.... 

afaik it is sharing around 1 MB but maybe the DXDIAG takes it for the actual intel AGP card viz. the 4mb Intel i752 which is the model upon which integrated i810 is based.....


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## blackleopard92 (Oct 30, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Not quite, OS manages the graphics RAM now in case of Vista which is always better.


nahh.. a game developer needs to optimise his game to max. memory forms a major part. only a game developer knows what things are best kept in memory and what to flush after certain usages, the memory sub-systems are therefore build to implement this priority system efficiently.. an OS would never know what's essential for the game, what is not.

At best, it is good for simple developers.


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## gxsaurav (Oct 30, 2007)

bikdel said:
			
		

> ^^^
> well afaik this chipset has no option to set shared memory for onboard.....
> the actual shared is maybe seen through DXDIAG... but it shows 4 MB


 
Intel 810 chipset had 4 MB of real memory + shared system RAM for a total of 32 MB RAM. I don't think it can run compiz properly


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## bikdel (Oct 30, 2007)

^^^ total of 32 MB ram should be enough............
and the core is OPENGL compliant ...

i know it coz games like Hitman 2 : Silent Assasin which need Direct 3d renderer wont work on it properly but if we change the renderer to OpenGL it works really well... i mean its playable....

BTW... i have never seen the option of increasing share memory in the BIOS of my Gigabyte mobo with i810 chipset..........

any ideas?


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## infra_red_dude (Oct 30, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Intel 810 chipset had 4 MB of real memory + shared system RAM for a total of 32 MB RAM. I don't think it can run compiz properly


No boss, no integrated desktop mobo has any RAM of its own. If I remember rite, as bikdel said, the memory allocation was fully dynamic.

You may install and try beryl. But install the mesa-dri package. I think only that provides direct rendering.

Btw, even with just 16mb shared a low end igp like radeon 7000 can run the basic effects of compiz/beryl


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## bikdel (Oct 30, 2007)

^^^
dynamic meaning chaging ?? increasing whenever required and again decreasing when not??...

lol..
even new onboards dont have that stuff on them... this could be  a good thing actually...

and 810 was afaik the first IGP of intel and its worse than radeon 7000 in all respects... so...

but i know its OpenGL compliant and therefore should not face anything difficult in rendering basic eye candy of beryl/compiz...

Anyways what do you mean by basic eye candy actually??...

i mean will the 3d desktop cube kinda thing be available?


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## infra_red_dude (Oct 30, 2007)

Yes, 1MB is something thats the min. value of allocation. Over and above I guess it shares as much as required. This you can confirm coz the RAM in system props in Windows is shown 1MB less. Plus if I remember rite the bios has no or limited options for ram sharing.

Yeah, I know i810i is worser than igp7000. I was answering to GX query regarding 'minimum 32mb ram' Its a prev. gen. igp based on i740 + some enchcements = i752 embedded. But it should support the drop shadows, multiple desktops (may only support plane desktop) I'm not sure, jus speculating looking at the power of the igp. Best thing is to insatll and try for urself.


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## bikdel (Oct 30, 2007)

^^^ yes you are right i guess.... but the most notable feature of any UI is its 3d nature which may not be rendered by this IGP.... anyways nothing more can be expected... 

but it isnt that either you can have it or you cant have it... i mean its like you can have some parts and you have to compromise on some...

things are not like that with aero..

BTW can u recommend me a distro with beryl?... or compiz, whatever....
which suits this hardware?


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## ray|raven (Oct 30, 2007)

CF does work on i810 chipsets.
Here's a thread from the debian forums about it.
*forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=...start=45&sid=599ba1c52ce013f3e2b382172c366be4

I'm posting the poster's xorg ... maybe it'll help

```
Section "Module" 
  Load "dbe" 
  Load "dri" 
  Load "xtrap" 
  Load "record" 
  Load "extmod" 
  Load "glx" 
EndSection 

Section "Device" 
  Identifier "Card0" 
  Driver "i810" 
  Option  "RenderAccel" "True" 
  Option  "backingstore" "True" 
  Option  "VBERestore" "True" 
  Option  "DRI" "True" 
  Option  "XAANoOffscreenPixmaps" "True" 
EndSection 

Section "Extensions" 
  Option "Composite" "True" 
EndSection 

Section "dri" 
  Mode 0666 
EndSection
```

Regards,
ray


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## bikdel (Oct 30, 2007)

^^^ yeah thanx for that.......

surprisingly i810 runs all eye candy of COMPIZ easily.........
great work linux!!!


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## naveen_reloaded (Oct 31, 2007)

Its funny here that many dont support visita or xp?
This is my opinion..dont wage a war.
Vista as far as i know is a os of the future just like xp when it came years back.
I like vista.personally i think instead of supporting year old hardwares,i think it better to set the bar high for next gen system.this is how technology work.buy a ultra fast system today,it will become obsolete by 8 months.
Anyway my system stop perfectly.no problem.
Waiting for SP1 to HIT the net. 

Edit: since i am msg ing from mobile some typo's do happen.
Its not stop.
Its runs


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## mehulved (Oct 31, 2007)

Why should the things bought our hardworked money become obsolete so soon? It's not a technical barrier. Advances do and should happen but it shouldn't just obsolete the advances made a short time back.


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## ray|raven (Oct 31, 2007)

@naveen_reloaded
Dude,You cant just dump a system that does the job reasonbly well just cos M$ decides to launch a new OS.
I dont play games and I use a 128 meg system with linux(ZenWalk) to do everythin i need on a pc.I surf the net , listen to music ,watch movies and still have enuf eye candy on it to make me feel comfortable.
Now,i just dont want to upgrade to 2gigs of RAM just to do the same things on a "next-gen-os".

Yes,Technology does improve
but i cant justify throwing away a perfectly working system just to do the same things on a new os.

Also,how advanced is an os when it need 8 times more RAM to do the same things.The topic here discusses the same thing.Why do i need loads of RAM and a costly graphic card to run aero
when Beryl/Compiz does the same thing at lower requirements.

Now,also tell me this.
if M$ decides that SP1 for Vista needs a quad core proccesor and 4gigs of RAM then would u dump ur system and go buy a new one?

Regards,
ray


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## Krazy_About_Technology (Oct 31, 2007)

naveen_reloaded said:
			
		

> Its funny here that many dont support visita or xp?
> This is my opinion..dont wage a war.
> Vista as far as i know is a os of the future just like xp when it came years back.
> I like vista.personally i think instead of supporting year old hardwares,i think it better to set the bar high for next gen system.this is how technology work.buy a ultra fast system today,it will become obsolete by 8 months.
> ...



I agree with you. But breaking compatibility with hardware everytime you launch something new is not fine. PC owners are better off a little that they can buy hardware at cheap rates. But what do you say about laptop owners for whom upgrading almost always means a new one? Is it affordable? May be for you, but not for me, and many others i guess. I just buyed my laptop 10-11 months ago and its obsolete now! This means that every 8 months i should keep 35-40K rs ready to keep up with technology? Is this the right cost for leveraging new technology? I am also a die hard Vista and Fedora Linux user. I too like both linux and Windows very much (I even reaaalllly love MacOS, but dont have a mac to satisfy my desires.)

Supporting 'Year Old Hardware' as you said is something that Microsoft HAS carried out. 915 is Vista capable. The thing is, if a competitive technology can work flawlessly on the same hardware, Then yours should work, may be in a minimalistic manner. AERO theme is tightly integrated with various graphics technologies of the OS but on the surface, its just a theme. Even when a greatly designed game finds a piece of hardware, it applies comensations like falling back to the version of technologies that that hardware supports. True intel 915 doesn't support pixel shader 3.0 in hardware, but is there no pixel shader support in 915 at all? Shouldn't there be a fallback in place? Ya absence of Hardware Scheduler is an issue, but then Compiz Fusion shows it clearly that the effects that end users are talking about can be achieved without it also.

What i am talking about is that there should be some Reduced Functionality mode, using which the features that are unavailable in harware(and the features that depend on these unavailable features) may be not used, or some fallback can be used if available. But the things that can work flawlessly on a hardware should work on it. Its not a game, its an OS. It can do that.

But as always there is no one to hear it. Nobody wants to look at customers needs if business is going on nicely. Its not only Microsoft, its with every company in the world. Acer, for example with their Hritik Roshan ads, lure customer towards their laptops. But anybody would like to hear what they did to me? 
The laptop i buyed got a fault in DVD drive 3rd day after the purchase.  I requested a replacement since it was only 3 days since i bought it. But they showed me their 'Warranty Policy' and said they will repair it. They took it for 6 days and were not answering when they'll return it (A DVD drive replacement takes them that much ). I only got my laptop after i directly called the Area Manager of ACER for U.P West region and warned him about it.

Then, after 6 months, i got a problem in Graphics card. The games (or 3d apps for the matter of fact) ran for sometime and then hangup for 5-10 minutes. Sometimes they come back sometimes they dont. And the times when they come back, they ran smoothly for another 10 mins and then again same thing happens. After 5-6 days, i got a nice big, wide white line in the  middle of my LCD. This was the limit. I gave the laptop to Acer 'Care' (Or should i say Acer Doesn't Care) They first of all refused to understand what the problem was. All they were accepting was the LCD problem. Its only after i showed them whats happening by playing a game for 20 minutes in their office, during which they all were smiling on me, like i am a doing some joke. At last they took my laptop and then said that they'll return it after 3 days. After 3 days they said that they dont have an LCD in stalk and they'll have to order it from Bangalore and it'll take 10 days. After 10 days they said that the bangalore warehouse also doesn't have it and they had ordered it from Singapore. That took another 15 days. Add to it the fact that to inquire about my laptop, i had to call 3 numbers. All his happened at New Delhi.

And now, after a month, when the warranty period is over a few days ago, The graphics problem has reappeared. I know they had applied some dirty trick to let the hardware run for a few days more untill the Warranty period is over. I dont have any choice now, but to not use 3d graphics related softwares and games on my system, or to get a completly new system or to PAY THOSE FREAKS SOME MONEY TO REPAIR IT . 

I know this story is not relevant here but i just want to show you the CUSTOMER SERVICE of a big j of computer hardware in the market today.


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## naveen_reloaded (Oct 31, 2007)

Ok i agree but if yöü think they weren bothering think of their products,they officially said they wont support for 98 and very soon they will say for xp!why? Because if yöü keep on supporting the older gen systems and softwares ,yöü wont move ahead.yes there can be a reduced functionality ,kinda things.
I think sometimes yöü have to move ahead with leaving your old ones behind.
Tech is like that,like it or not.today i have 8600 gt,i know surely it will become obsolte one day.what can i do.ask game developers to create games for my age old gfx card?
Anyway about the laptop,i would prefer a pc for laptop.but again it all depends upon what yöü use for.it has downsides also,like yöü said,upgrading is very minimum....  
Off topic:
After seeing so many support for linux, i want to try a linux distro.
Suggest me a good one and best one.


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## ray|raven (Oct 31, 2007)

Dude,You still dont get the point.
New products come everyday,doesnt mean the old ones are useless.
If u read my previous post,u'd know i'm using a ~3-4 year old system and am quite happy with it.Before Vista came did u ever hear an OS needing a gig of RAM?
Just cos one OS needs doesnt mean its the standard and everything below it is obsolete.
Even the latest Leopard from Apple needs 512megs.

And about the linux part,create a new thread in the open source section and there are many people who would gladly help you out.
But since you asked,get Ubuntu 7.10.
You can order a cd free @ *shipit.ubuntu.com

Regards,
ray


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## mehulved (Oct 31, 2007)

naveen, it's not about not obsoleting old technology.  What is old has to be obseleted but it should should bedown with sufficient amount of time period and with enough notice. Amount of time should be the function of price.


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## Krazy_About_Technology (Oct 31, 2007)

mehulved said:
			
		

> naveen, it's not about not obsoleting old technology.  What is old has to be obseleted but it should should bedown with sufficient amount of time period and with enough notice. Amount of time should be the function of price.



Right said. The problem is not that something new shouldn't come out.What pains me is that if the old technology can be supported than why not? It could run with a warning ,may be in a reduced mode with technology fallback etc, but what the heck, completely denying its usage? And that too when it was running properly in the beta version? If i just want to try out the features for programmatic use, then what? There is much more argument on it than Microsoft is straightly denying with just one statement, "Its not supported".

I am not commenting on Vista as a whole. Its a great OS with nice set of features and technologies. As i said before i am using it no matter it supports AERO on my hardware or not. But it doesn't seems fair to me.


----------



## kalpik (Oct 31, 2007)

^^ Imagine having to buy a new car, just because Bharat Petroleum came up with Speed 93, and they stopped "supporting" (read selling) the regular petrol..


----------



## Help~Is~Here (Oct 31, 2007)

mehulved said:
			
		

> naveen, it's not about not obsoleting old technology.  What is old has to be obseleted but it should should bedown with sufficient amount of time period and with enough notice. Amount of time should be the function of price.


Rightly said, people nowadays think that if a piece of hardware is 1yr old, it's obsolete! but they don't realise that there isn't any signifant change in the architecture of harware components other than CPU's and motherboards in the last 2-3 yrs. 

It's like, the RAM(DDR1) that was sold 2 yrs ago is infact using the same technology that RAMs manufactured today(DDR1) with very little or negligible difference. It's the amount that Vista is asking for! not something new. So, if people keep saying that Vista is using updated and new hardware, they are wrong to some extent, the only thing that Vista uses differently in terms of hardware is updated Graphics engines. It still can run on your old RAM, your old CPU, your old motherboard, your old optical drives and hardrives etc. etc, the only thing it really needs is a better upto date graphics chipset. So, those fanboys who keep clinging onto the cliche that Vista is pushing the bar for technology is complete nonsense. It certainly pushes the bar for your money but certainly not for any hardware except the graphics. As far as the RAM is concerned, it's just asking for more to hog on more resources, when other OS's can do the same job faster or better with lesser amount of RAM. So, I really don't understand what the point is to keep telling that Vista pushes the hardware technology to new heights, MS dudes, it doesn't, it just asking you to spend filthy more on existing hardware technologies.

When some product is released in the market, a manufacturer has 2 choises, either to make their product really exclusive for an elite market that really is small or make a product that is compatible with most of the industry. I guess microsoft has gone for the first option ensuring that it goes directly into the hands of people who already have upto date hardware and spent a filthy amount of money to get a high end rig leaving back the rest of industry to wait and think whether they really need to adopt it. Just think about it, if vista was fully functional with 256/512MB of RAM, then most of us wouldn't have had second thoughts of trying it. But now that it's asking for too much, we take a step back and think, jee, what is so different in this OS from all the others that it's worth to spend money of a latest graphics card and purchase more amount of RAM. Hope eveyone gets the point I'm making. Now, I'm sure @gx, who hasn't replied for long will come and reply to this to prove to everyone that I'm dumb, keep it coming.


----------



## ray|raven (Oct 31, 2007)

kalpik said:
			
		

> ^^ Imagine having to buy a new car, just because Bharat Petroleum came up with Speed 93, and they stopped "supporting" (read selling) the regular petrol..


Lolz,Nice Analogy kalpik.
Guess that kind of answers are needed to get the point into some folks' brains.

Regards,
ray


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## gxsaurav (Oct 31, 2007)

Help~Is~Here said:
			
		

> It's like, the RAM(DDR1) that was sold 2 yrs ago is infact using the same technology that RAMs manufactured today(DDR1) with very little or negligible difference.


 
Lolz...means doubling the bandwidth so that u can do more work in the same ammount of time due to better technology is bad? U really crackd me on this one.


> It still can run on your old RAM, your old CPU, your old motherboard, your old optical drives and hardrives etc. etc, the only thing it really needs is a better upto date graphics chipset.


 
Well, yeah...what else are we saying from so long.


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## vish786 (Oct 31, 2007)

its "we" who got to make "wise decision", should one update to _very latest technology_ ? do we really require latest technology ?... totally depends on end users... pacing with recent technology will cost more money, constant updation of hardware cant be done... its better to stick with our needs.


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## Help~Is~Here (Oct 31, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Lolz...means doubling the bandwidth so that u can do more work in the same ammount of time due to better technology is bad? U really crackd me on this one.



This is what you simply don't get dude, I clearly mentioned DDR1 in both instances.. sad that you still can't follow


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## praka123 (Oct 31, 2007)

One thing for sure am not gonna believe -Vista is next gen and a superior Operating System.why does these folks forget M$ basic ideas of forcing Vista aspirants for new hardware.what about DRM,Digital Restrictions Management inbuilt.these all prove Vista is made NOT for users,but for Microsoft and its allies to be yet more profitable and make newer ways to "infringe" fair use rights.this company is noted for its anti-competitive practises and US,EU courts ruled against M$FT.I think,people rather than jumping for Vista thinking it's next gen fake,should try using GNU/Linux or other Free Operating Systems making the scenario balanced rather than hinging back for Microsoft & allies.
Vista's UI is excellent.  that doesn't make an operating system superior dude!
regarding M$ Proprietary Directx and other technologies-they are new stumbling blocks made to prevent innovation as is their software patent FUD against Linux.*You can be enlightened by the realities reading below comment at slashdot.org.I appeal you read below link*


> Microsoft has been scanning the horizon to ensure that no one begins to kick at the blocks that prop up their monopoly. They are constantly looking for new ways to create more blocks. Some of these blocks are directx, drm, application/windows APIs, network interoperability (or the lack thereof), WGA/WGN lie, FUD, patents
> 
> Their APIs, not just DirectX, are also locking blocks, that block you from other platform development. Most companies don't have the time to learn multiple platform APIs in order to develop software. Apple recognized this (well NeXt computers did) when they were creating their development tools. Another block they use today are patents. Microsoft is not making a patent portfolio to protect itself, it is making it to prop up the monopoly and to attack competitors such as Linux.


  *linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=230391&cid=18696149


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## naveen_reloaded (Oct 31, 2007)

Guys i know the technology lies the same.i think if yöü keep on creating the os and softwares For the existing hardware,what the use? Think of this,they keep building things for 4 year old system, then we would surely not have heard words like core 2,quad,etc,

Ok one question?
Can linux still be used by all ,just out of the box?
I dont know...
If the answer is no!
Then i think ms is doing a far job.
How many people are benefitted from ms because of their product? 

I am not a fan boy...there are few things i hate in ms like this drm..things like that.other than it,they are pretty much good.  

Ok i think its not the os which pushes the limit,the real culprits are games.what say guys?


----------



## Help~Is~Here (Oct 31, 2007)

naveen_reloaded said:
			
		

> Guys i know the technology lies the same.i think if yöü keep on creating the os and softwares For the existing hardware,what the use? Think of this,they keep building things for 4 year old system, then we would surely not have heard words like core 2,quad,etc,
> 
> Ok one question?
> Can linux still be used by all ,just out of the box?
> ...


You're going off topic again mate. This thread is about the difference in resource usage by Aero and Beryl.

Offtopic: It's not the software industry that has pushed hardware, it's the other way around. There is hardware that is a 1000 times more powerful than what you use on your desktop, and the reason for that not coming into the destop segments is simply due to the lack of sofware support. And also, for the so called 'outdated hardware', frankly, no sofwares have been able to fully utilize their potential. There are lots of abilites that existing hardware components have which the sofware industry has not been able to tap fully due to it's inferiority. So, plz get the facts right, it has always been the hardware industry that has pushed the sofware industry to new heights, not the other way around. A very good example for you to drool over is the Cell processor


----------



## infra_red_dude (Oct 31, 2007)

naveen_reloaded said:
			
		

> Guys i know the technology lies the same.i think if yöü keep on creating the os and softwares For the existing hardware,what the use? Think of this,they keep building things for 4 year old system, then we would surely not have heard words like core 2,quad,etc,


The thread is about a chipset being just 1 year old and still not being able to run the specified feature.



			
				naveen_reloaded said:
			
		

> Ok one question?
> Can linux still be used by all ,just out of the box?


YES



			
				naveen_reloaded said:
			
		

> Ok i think its not the os which pushes the limit,the real culprits are games.what say guys?


Games are the biggest culprits, Vista is only second to them 

The fact that a patched Vista runs fine even on a system of 256mb RAM proves the point.


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## naveen_reloaded (Oct 31, 2007)

^true patched vista works fine, And fast..
Expecting vista compatible softwares ,and may be,if any next gen softwares for vista.until then will give a try to linux.


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## bikdel (Nov 2, 2007)

@ HIH.... must say uve put it really well.....
softwares are not exclusively prepared for a hardware and 100 % efficiency acnnot be possible, 100 % optimazation cannot be made... not even close to it.....


and guys wanna tell one thing.......

Its ont the END USER's HAnd to choose whatever he wants ... isnt it?
purchasing, installing and using software isnt much different that doing the same on hardware....

Not everyone has a Quad core simply because its expensive and because many including me dont need it.....
in the same way not everyone needs the god damn VISTA... there are hell lot many alternatives... linux is there for FREE and for gods's sake XP still works!!!
let me give an analogy:
im not that savvy and stupid.. i wont shell out money to buy things if i dont need it.....
i dont play latest games no i dont need latest GFX card...
and i know no-one will notice the difference between 25 fps and 250 fps in games....

So it all depends on end user's choice......... 

sorry for gettin off topic but i desperately wanted to say this... 


((((and @ infra red dude...

You say patched vista will run fine on 256 MB ram? i mean will it gve the performance of XP in 96/128 MB?))))


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## Quiz_Master (Nov 2, 2007)

OK I was not going to post anything but so interesting discussion is going on...
I hope I will not go offtopic if I do, I am sorry for that.
The questions was :
*Beryl on Linux Runs Cool Effects on Intel 915 - What has Microsoft Done to AERO? *

First my Experience with both OSs (Vista and Ubunto 7.10)
My test-system :
Mobo : Gigabyte 8LD533 (Intel 845)
Ram : 512 MBs DDRI (hynix)
Proccy : 2.6 PIV
Hdd : 40 GBs PATA (Fully defragmented)

1.) Ubunto : Everything ran fine and without crashing. I was able touse it out of box... I mean just after installation.
    Vista :- Installation was a little quirky. At first my system hanged. After a restart it goes smoothly. But I was not able to fully use it out of the box. I installed winamp, yahoo massanger and M$ office to make it usable. Ubunto wins.

2.) I play games rarely. Vista wins here. The 3D chess game is sure entertaining. Playing games in Ubunto isn't easy. (Finding GOOD games for Linux itself isn't easy.). Vista wins.

3.) After some tingling Vista hanged, 'restart time'. But in Ubunto I did so much tingling it never hanged. Ubunto wins.

4.) I was missing my dear old Winamp and few other softies in Ubunto... Vista was able to run Winamp and other (ofcourse) so Vista wins.

5.) A friend came and asked to make two copies of CDs. Darn! Nero 7 hanged between 20-30% in Vista (thrice ).. ghrrr.. Waste of 3 CDs. Atlast I burned the Discs using Ubunto. Ubunto wins.

6.) In my stone-age system Vista runs just like XP or more like windows 2000 with classsic skin. Ubunto runs with special effect glory. Ubunto wins the war of eye candy.

 So 4 time wins for Ubunto.
I am still not saying linux is BEST. Both OSs has long way to go. Still I think for the end user Vista is not giving us what we actually want. 

Operating System is not exactly about eye-candy interface its about functionality.  Now I need atleast 512 MBs ram to install Vista and to run it smoothly I need atleast 1 Gig. Why? When I can still do all the stuff possible in Vista in my Linux with just 512 MBs Ram.

For a end user like me.... we don't need eye-candy we need functionality.
Both Vista and Linux is giving that functionality, BUT Linux is giving that in almost no cost and no hardware upgrade.

(Imagine you have to buy a High end PC just to run a OS, when all you wanna do is listen to songs, make presentation, watch DVD movies or write some text in Word etc. Naah... I am better off wih Linux Or XP).
_______________________________

I AM NOT A LINUX SUPPORTER. 
_______________________________


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## praka123 (Nov 3, 2007)

I think all got the point.there is no need to upgrade to Vista becoz it is new "windows",except for  gamers for DX10.Vista doesnt Justifies the h/w upgrade it needs.If eyecandy is what ur upon with older h/w,Linux distributions have it easy.Distributions means it bundles almost all needed softwares except proprietary plugins for multimedia which distros cant legally carry with it.
exceptions are linux-mint or freespire or some custom made distros.OSS gives lotta options!


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## FilledVoid (Nov 3, 2007)

Just to add my 2 cents to the topics. I doubt how it will add any more value to it as pretty much everything needed to be said has already been said. But here goes anyway . 



> Vista as far as i know is a os of the future just like xp when it came years back



When XP came out I recall it being a disaster. In my opinion Vista will pretty much cause problems for alot of folks till they install whatever SP comes out. yes I know XP is good and all but it was XP that truely made it worth its value if I recall correct. 



> Dude,You cant just dump a system that does the job reasonbly well just cos M$ decides to launch a new OS.



Sure you can, you just need to have the "I'm filthy rich syndrome" . But in a more vast view I think that the cost definitely outweighs its benefits. Considering an average persons income I definitely would keep away from Vista , XP or whatever (provided I dont sort to piracy) 

Oh ... wait before anyone says this about Aero vs Beryl yadda yadda yadda ..... here goes. 

I upgraded my system for Vista and hopefully Aero. Installed it and it ended up crashing frequently on a brand new copy of Vista which my Uncle bought from US. After spending that much money I was so angry that i started finding Open Source alternatives, and I did. Prakash sent me a copy of Ubuntu AMD64 . I saw and used some of the Eye candy in Vista and may I say Vista doesnt even come anywhere *close* to what Im having on Ubuntu especially when what the both can do on *"old hardware"*.

For games , Ill give Vista a point there. There are much more games for Vista then there is for Linux at the moment. Although Cedega, Wine, etc provide a solution to some of the games and stuff . 

My conclusion. If you want to have an inexpensive system that suits your needs and has eye candy on * old hardware* and you don't want to resort to piracy. On the other hand if you are one of those fortunate few who have one of the best graphic cards and configurations on the block and enjoy games. Definitely Vista.


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## infra_red_dude (Nov 3, 2007)

My conclusion: Get a Linux OS Box, use Compiz Fusion for all eyecandy AND get a gaming console (Xbox360 is my fav. rite now! ). The Windows gaming PC will not last that long. There's a discussion going on in one of the other forums regarding this.

ATM the only reason one may need Windows is for games and to run some legacy windows apps. I'm sure cedega/wine will soon give 99.99% compatibility (hope it does). In that case you'll never need a windows box. MS needs to worry a lot about this now. Their own product (XBox) is a threat to Windows now (may not be significant but the effect will soon be realised in a couple of years).

I know sooooooo many people who've shifted to Linux for their daily work. It provides then almost everything including eyecandy with Compiz. They've bought gaming consoles instead of upgrading for Vista. They are as happy as they can be


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## praka123 (Nov 4, 2007)

^m not a gamer.but gaming freaks get a console for the price of visita afterall Xbox nd visita ultimate costs almost the same


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## bikdel (Nov 4, 2007)

^^^ point to be noted


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## ray|raven (Nov 5, 2007)

infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> My conclusion: Get a Linux OS Box, use Compiz Fusion for all eyecandy AND get a gaming console (Xbox360 is my fav. rite now! ). The Windows gaming PC will not last that long. There's a discussion going on in one of the other forums regarding this.


Thats the best thing to do AFAIK.
You can spend the money for upgrades on games then.


> ATM the only reason one may need Windows is for games and to run some legacy windows apps. I'm sure cedega/wine will soon give 99.99% compatibility (hope it does).


I dont know,might not happen,
both wine/cedega will keep evolving but so will windows(DirectX),
so AFAIK there will be that certain gap of features between them.
The other way IMO is that game developers should create openGL versions,
so linux users can play the game.
Some of the recent games do have an option of openGL.
WoW has this and is supposed to run decently on Wine/Cedega.

Regards,
ray


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## infra_red_dude (Nov 5, 2007)

rayraven said:
			
		

> I dont know,might not happen,
> both wine/cedega will keep evolving but so will windows(DirectX),
> so AFAIK there will be that certain gap of features between them.
> The other way IMO is that game developers should create openGL versions,
> ...


I'm not talking about games here. All the gaming requirements are handled by the gaming console. I'm talking about application software which are exclusive to windows.


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## mediator (Nov 5, 2007)

I kinda disagree here. I have seen linux games like tremulous and they have very nice graphics like unreal tournament etc. But saying that if u need to play games then use gaming console is like saying if u wanna listen to music then get a cd player or if u wanna watch a movie then get a DVD/VCD player.

Linux does need rise in the gaming world n I guess it only needs developers to come forward now for this field! But yes I do agree that buying a console is better than spending huge sums on a crappy OS known for testing its users.


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## bikdel (Nov 5, 2007)

^^^ well i kinda agree with you


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## infra_red_dude (Nov 5, 2007)

Thing is, whether Linux has games in future or not is not the point. Even if Linux goes the Windows way when gaming is concerned it'll ultimately be the same thing: Upgrade every 6 months to run that latest game at the highest quality levels. This is avoidable in case of a console.

For your other basic needs: office work, surfing, media center + eyecandy a normal not-so-powerful Linux PC is more than enough.


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## mediator (Nov 5, 2007)

Thats rt, but for gaming phreaks they need the latest graphics card n music phreaks like me, we need the best sound n hence fine speakers, amps, strings etc !

The other basic needs, like u said, can be dealt with using DSL distro too n fine tuning it on a 266 MHz, 32 MB RAM system. Why use duo cores or P4? Yea its stewpid to release an OS that suddenly demands huge resources n 1GB RAM to work (recommended) like Xp asked for 128 but worked flawlessly on 512 MB RAM. 

So upgrade is not an issue for gamers. But I feel choice should be there. Windows VISTA needs a fine graphic card to run aero n 1 GB recommended while linux needs 256 MB RAM to run beryl. So if developers can develop n we can experience more out of box candy then windows users on a mere 256 MB RAM that we have been experiencing for some 1+ year now, then why cant they develop games that may utilize 512 MB RAM to deliver awesome/highest quality graphics that can run again => for 1+ year? Its not unrealistic is it?

I keep on experimenting with games too rarely, but in the last 2 years the linux games quality has improved a lot but my system's RAM remained the same. I must say I didn't find any noticeable deterioration in the speed of the games!!


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