# AGAINST RESERVATION IN IITs



## The Conqueror (Jun 5, 2011)

There's a good reason why IITs are not world class.
That's simply because they reserve 50% of their seats for underprivileged. While Harvard/Yale or other world class institutions look for the best brains with matching aptitude unlike JEE where they filter talent on the basis of PCM. Why compromise on MERIT? *Give the underprivileged financial or moral support - but reservations and compromise on low cut off is simply UNFAIR*. 

I have a strong passion and equally well aptitude for computer science. But I don't like Chemistry. Why should I know preparation of organic compounds if I want to do programming. From IIT" Holisitic development of all skills" That translates to jack of all master of none. 

It's time to fight for the right.


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## soumo27 (Jun 5, 2011)

Yea, I definitely agree with you. But it's not the fault of The IIT's, you see. They are forced to apply rules pertaining to reservations of the under-privileged, as per the laws laid by the SC. So as a matter of fact, not only the IIT's; But also, each and every Institutions suffer.


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## Liverpool_fan (Jun 5, 2011)

Pointless to fight for. Nothing will happen. 
Same with the education system. And you are in school, probably the finest education phase in India, simple to say you've not seen much. 
No one gives a damn about talent, or innovations here, and that is not going to change. You have to dig your own path.


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## The Conqueror (Jun 5, 2011)

soumo27 said:


> Yea, I definitely agree with you. But it's not the fault of The IIT's, you see. They are forced to apply rules pertaining to reservations of the under-privileged, as per the laws laid by the SC.



There is no mention of a low-cut off reservation. Reservation is okay, but compromise on MERIT is not fair. See the cut off for this year's IITJEE. A huge difference for marks required for GE vs Other Castes. Do you feel it's fair?



Liverpool_fan said:


> Pointless to fight for. Nothing will happen.
> Same with the education system. And you are in school, probably the finest education phase in India, simple to say you've not seen much.
> No one gives a damn about talent, or innovations here, and that is not going to change. You have to dig your own path.



I thought we are in democracy?
See the news now, a fight against corruption yielded worse results. This is worse than dictatorship.


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## Liverpool_fan (Jun 5, 2011)

The Conqueror said:


> See the news now, a fight against corruption yielded worse results. This is worse than dictatorship.


We are in a democracy but most of our population is uneducated, backward, their means of living are medieval, "poisoned" with pointless "values" and systems, as well as the fact that they lack basic needs of life. So democracy in urban scope wouldn't work here.
In any case, democracy is a myth really, after all whoever you vote for, the government wins.


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## nims11 (Jun 5, 2011)

ask me(and many other like me), what is FRUSTRATION. missing IIT JEE by 5 marks is of course painful but to see people under reservation category qualiying IITJEE with 20-30 marks less than me(even more for STs) makes me cry.


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## asingh (Jun 5, 2011)

We live in open socialism basically. And  eye-wash the world -- "worlds biggest democracy". But forget to mention "worlds most corrupt country too". Which starts top down.


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## MetalheadGautham (Jun 5, 2011)

lol I can completely associate with you there. Was in the same kind of position (chemistry hater, computer lover and got my IIT dreams mothered by bad criteria for selection (no computer paper in jee wtf) and reservation two years back. Now I'm in some crap college doing my 3rd year of CSE and the situation's not changed much. Subjects are STILL often irrelevant, while relevant stuff are seldom taught.

But there is one thing I can tell you from observing what kind of people end up where from their college days: Only those with REAL talent and REAL BRAINS that understand stuff, not just memorize random data to score random 90% marks or get 9-point GPAs survive in the end.

Even if you're in an average college, with average marks, as long as you maintain interest in the subject, research deep into a field you like and come out with awesome projects that'll leave pure non-geek nerds from IITs speechless, you're gonna do well in the end, even if the start is not as good. Just ensure that you have the internet by your side 24/7 and keep learning something "useful" in your free time. Do internships/in-plant training during your summer breaks.


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## nims11 (Jun 5, 2011)

i have no problems when reservation is given to those who really deserve it but that's not happening. the richer reservation class get better education and take away the piece of cake that is intended for the poors of that class.


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## jayantr7 (Jun 5, 2011)

yeah. I'm also an IIT aspirant. I'm interested in Computer and Physics but also have be a master in Chemistry to get into it. But we can't do anything... IIT and MIT/Harvard/Stanford cannot be compared though


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## abhijangda (Jun 5, 2011)

Reservation should be for those who are poor, like in OBC we have Non-Creamy Layer and Creamy Layer. Non-Creamy Layer gets reservation because their income is less than a certain level. Similar, law should be in other categories. In, IITs we have 51.5% reservation more than half, so we can say that only less than half students in IITs are world class.


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## The Conqueror (Jun 5, 2011)

MetalheadGautham said:


> lol I can completely associate with you there. Was in the same kind of position (chemistry hater, computer lover and got my IIT dreams mothered by bad criteria for selection (no computer paper in jee wtf) and reservation two years back. Now I'm in some crap college doing my 3rd year of CSE and the situation's not changed much. Subjects are STILL often irrelevant, while relevant stuff are seldom taught.
> 
> But there is one thing I can tell you from observing what kind of people end up where from their college days: Only those with REAL talent and REAL BRAINS that understand stuff, not just memorize random data to score random 90% marks or get 9-point GPAs survive in the end.
> 
> Even if you're in an average college, with average marks, as long as you maintain interest in the subject, research deep into a field you like and come out with awesome projects that'll leave pure non-geek nerds from IITs speechless, you're gonna do well in the end, even if the start is not as good. Just ensure that you have the internet by your side 24/7 and keep learning something "useful" in your free time. Do internships/in-plant training during your summer breaks.



This.  You are correct brother, but IIT has 'brand' tag and a prestige associated with it. But on the other hand, as this is being debated in other thread about IIIT-H having a well updated CS syllabus. So I think its not worth burning the midnight oil for brand name's sake.
I think if Aryabhatta had lived in this era, I bet he would not have been able to unleash his creative potential. 

I can safely say that those who get such AIRs in JEE are actually stunted brains.


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## thetechfreak (Jun 5, 2011)

I agree with this. But we cant do anything


			
				 Liverpool_fan said:
			
		

> Pointless to fight for. Nothing will happen.


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## The Conqueror (Jun 5, 2011)

mysticjr7 said:


> yeah. I'm also an IIT aspirant. I'm interested in Computer and Physics but also have be a master in Chemistry to get into it. But we can't do anything... IIT and MIT/Harvard/Stanford cannot be compared though


They(everyone) thinks its world class which is just an illusion.



thetechfreak said:


> I agree with this. But we cant do anything






abhijangda said:


> Reservation should be for those who are poor, like in OBC we have Non-Creamy Layer and Creamy Layer. Non-Creamy Layer gets reservation because their income is less than a certain level. Similar, law should be in other categories. In, IITs we have 51.5% reservation more than half, so we can say that only less than half students in IITs are world class.



Non creamy layer should be given financial support but they should prove their worth by Merit.


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## Sarath (Jun 5, 2011)

OP says give the underpriveleged money or a helping hand. Which is what the politicians do during elections?

Reservations were drafted with the constitution to do just one thing. Balance the society.

Giving knowledge helps generations to come and pulls them out of poverty. I have witnessed it only recently that how it is helping the underprivileged; although I too like you guys feels jealous about how they have a low cut off score.

Also the IITs main focus has always been to produce brains that can uplift the country and society. Not to be world class in itself.
Although that is what they have set out to do the implementation is more accurately seen in the IIT like institutes of China.



asingh said:


> We live in open socialism basically. And  eye-wash the world -- "worlds biggest democracy". But forget to mention "worlds most corrupt country too". Which starts top down.



We are not the worlds most corrupt. That would be disastrous.


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## The Conqueror (Jun 5, 2011)

Sarath said:


> OP says give the underpriveleged money or a helping hand. Which is what the politicians do during elections?
> 
> Reservations were drafted with the constitution to do just one thing. *Balance the society.*
> 
> Also the IITs main focus has always been to produce brains that can uplift the country and society. Not to be world class in itself.



I don't think unfair cutoff's would balance the society. Read the comment by nims11, how would you feel in his position? Is this called balancing? No compromise should be made on MERIT. 
What about the injustice faced by those who belong to GE Category? Go to any institution, an average GE student would have more trouble getting admission than a one from underprivileged with less marks/merit. AND BTW, the reservation was meant to be just for a few years


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## Sarath (Jun 5, 2011)

That aint true. If a guy comes in who is rich you can just put a case on him and he is out of the college. Same goes with NRI quota in many colleges. Its easier to just get in through that but if anyone complains hes gotta leave the college and forget the 10+L donation he just made.

Just that no one complains as it is troublesome. Its just easier to troll in forums.

To put it simply: Take out reservations and at the turn of the generation you will see slavery and bonded labour return.



The Conqueror said:


> I don't think unfair cutoff's would balance the society. Read the comment by nims11, how would you feel in his position? Is this called balancing? No compromise should be made on MERIT.
> What about the injustice faced by those who belong to GE Category? Go to any institution, an average GE student would have more trouble getting admission than a one from underprivileged with less marks/merit. AND BTW, the reservation was meant to be just for a few years



Err that is what the definition of reservation is: Make it easier for the underprivileged to come up. They have lower cutoffs based on the number of applicants in that category. The SC/ST have the lowest cutoffs. I used to call them "comical" and a "joke being played on our lives". But coming into college and seeing the ground reality all that seemed good fodder for gossip.

And God only knows when reservation will die. Its almost indistinguishable with political propaganda now.


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## sygeek (Jun 5, 2011)

If the education system was this worst in other countries, we'd be saying hundreds of protests daily to a point that a change is encountered. The problem is we want the change but do almost nothing to implement it. However if a person comes to a point of protest and free speech, we are prevented from it. Sometimes even the media claims a rightful person to be wrong, when they don't fuzzing know what the other person has been through. 
Is desh ka kya hoga *sigh*.


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## Liverpool_fan (Jun 5, 2011)

Sarath said:


> That aint true. If a guy comes in who is rich you can just put a case on him and he is out of the college. Same goes with NRI quota in many colleges. Its easier to just get in through that but if anyone complains hes gotta leave the college and forget the 10+L donation he just made.
> 
> Just that no one complains as it is troublesome. Its just easier to troll in forums.
> 
> To put it simply: Take out reservations and at the turn of the generation you will see slavery and bonded labour return.


You are speaking as if slavery and bonded labour doesn't exist. It still does, and reservation does nothing for them.

No one is against reservation but the way it is implemented. Implementation should be on the basis of economic plus social basis. A person who lives in Delhi having his dad working as a government servant or private multinational doesn't deserve reservation just on the basis that they happen to have an SC certificate. Neither does giving further reservation in jobs among people who have already availed reservation or some kind of affirmative action.
Secondly the approach should be of quality education. Just giving them a seat will do no good to anyone if they are not able to handle the burden either.
Approach should be to bring on enough facilities that the repressed classes are able to ably compete with the other sections of the society. That can be done by providing free books and other materials, scholarships for coaching/training, and ensuring quality education up to 10+2. After that, a certain level of affirmative action will suffice.
Difficult to implement? Yes. But possible. But it will earn no votes so nothing will happen.

Personally I am more concerned with lack of quality education rather than reservation. More institutes providing quality education with classy infrastructure, every one wins.


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## nims11 (Jun 5, 2011)

Liverpool_fan said:


> Approach should be to bring on enough facilities that the repressed classes are able to ably compete with the other sections of the society. That can be done by providing free books and other materials, scholarships for coaching/training, and ensuring quality education up to 10+2. After that, a certain level of affirmative action will suffice.



i totally agree.

i also heard from my cousin that people getting admission through reservation face discrimination. is that true?


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## Sarath (Jun 5, 2011)

Reservation is based on economical + social basis. I have seen the criteria. Its different for different people. The cut offs and such. Its just difficult to find every guy and put a ceiling for him. I mean you know our country. We have more castes and sub castes than you and I can imagine and comprehend.
In fact the people who had reservation a few years (decades?) ago no longer have it coz they have come out of the need for it. I think some protests took place last time. I cant remember.

What you are asking for is point to point accurate implementation of the reservation system which umm is I dont know should be ideally possible but ground reality is always far different from whats on paper.

Actually the underprivileged are not even interested in studying as far as I have seen. Most of them need to be begged and brought to school and then told later that even in college you guys will get admission and stuff. 

I think they handle the burden well. Come on. Engineering and medicine is fine. Studying advance avionics and all that rocket science stuff well thats difficult. 

If you start discussing about every policy that hasnt been implemented properly in our country then that will lead to a situation similar to a DDOS attack on the forum.


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## nims11 (Jun 5, 2011)

btw my family can have OBC status in jharkhand 

but dad didnt apply for it. 



Sarath said:


> In fact the people who had reservation a few years (decades?) ago no longer have it coz they have come out of the need for it. I think some protests took place last time. I cant remember.



the vaishyas or something like that recently protested for being removed from OBC


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## The Conqueror (Jun 5, 2011)

Sarath said:


> Engineering and medicine is fine. .



I do not agree. If you give admission for medicine to a person who does not deserve it - you are destroying the world. Why, you would ask? Think again. 
A career in medicine is not a joke. Doctor has a responsibility to treat his patients. If doctor is not having proficient skills, how can you expect satisfactory health services?
Now on engineering, if those without dedication and casuals are selected then it will lead to poor design/engineering of products that will affect consumers at large.

So, all admissions should be on fixed merit.





> Actually the underprivileged are not even interested in studying as far as I have seen. Most of them need to be begged and brought to school and then told later that even in college you guys will get admission and stuff.


Then why force them to study? We have talented individuals in queue.



Sarath said:


> If you start discussing about every policy that hasnt been implemented properly in our country then that will lead to a situation similar to a DDOS attack on the forum.


My friend, this is democracy. If it has not been implemented properly does not mean it should remain as it is.


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## The Sorcerer (Jun 5, 2011)

No1 dares to think beyond IIT?


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## Liverpool_fan (Jun 5, 2011)

The Sorcerer said:


> No1 dares to think beyond IIT?



There is an IIPT?


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## The Conqueror (Jun 5, 2011)

The Sorcerer said:


> No1 dares to think beyond IIT?



The point is not simply restricted to IITs. It applies to every educational institution in India.


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## Sarath (Jun 5, 2011)

The Sorcerer said:


> No1 dares to think beyond IIT?



lol thats true. If you are not in IIT then I am sure you guys are pretty annoyed too when our parents go all: "you know Mr.xyz uncle, yeah they have a son your age studying in IIT then he'll go to IIM. Amazing.
[Me thinking: are you trying to tell me that I suck. (Worst part, I cant say anything to it either)]
You can substitute "xyz uncle" & "son" with any random person but you are bound to have heard that.


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## mohityadavx (Jun 5, 2011)

Oh! What a fuss u ppl have made over here. Do any1 of u even know that u can't just go there and say i am an OBC give me seat via reservation there are certain criteria:-



> 1) Annual income from all sources < 4.5lakh
> 
> 2) Ur parent should not be V.V.I.Ps.- President, Vice-President, Judges of the Supreme Court and of the High Courts etc. or Government or PSU employees of Central or State-
> or
> ...



Now this shows how financially strong these ppl are


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## Liverpool_fan (Jun 5, 2011)

The Conqueror said:


> I do not agree. If you give admission for medicine to a person who does not deserve it - you are destroying the world. Why, you would ask? Think again.
> A career in medicine is not a joke. Doctor has a responsibility to treat his patients. If doctor is not having proficient skills, how can you expect satisfactory health services?
> Now on engineering, if those without dedication and casuals are selected then it will lead to poor design/engineering of products that will affect consumers at large.
> 
> So, all admissions should be on fixed merit.


While I agree with the point of basic merit. However the job of a course is to make a doctor out of a person rather than just who's the best coached candidate and select the cream. Those who will never have the skills of a proper doctor, should never be able to pass out anyway if your system is right.
Same is applicable with Engineers.
I will agree to your point in job level though.



> Then why force them to study? We have talented individuals in queue.


No friend, just because some few people have been born in lower income family, Why should their misfortune continue and just due to the blindness of their parents, should be be continued to remain in the misfortune forever and never get the opportunity to actually compete with economically stronger people who can afford the luxury of coaching and being tutored to success?
In effect that would be like "reserving" seats to already privileged candidates.
Help to the underprivileged is a must, whatever you say.


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## Sarath (Jun 5, 2011)

Both of you above thanks for bringing out proper points.

As for medicine. Trust me the passing criteria are so stringent that I have seen people reeling and buckling under the stress. Even if someone gets an admission getting the certificate is a BIG nail that needs either a big hammer or a lot of hammering. Plus you are under the risk of losing your right to practice at any point of time if you are deemed incapable. Last time I checked I never saw that happening to any other professional course.

Also to put it simply instead of having a hundred super strong mutant humans as the army its better to have ten thousand normal strong men in the army.


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## ssk_the_gr8 (Jun 5, 2011)

even i believe in meritocracy.. but india is not a developed country, meritocracy just won't work here.
not everybody is equal here, there is a vast difference between the rich and the poor, and to bridge that gap we need reservation
but what i hate about reservations is how they are given

why are they caste based?

we need to help the needy so why is it not just based on the economic angle
if a brahman whose monthly income is 10k and he can barely meet ends, i believe he needs reservation for his children's upliftment....

so i believe reservation is required
we should have criteria like only those people will get reservation who have annual income less than 4 lacs and assets less than a certain amount(whatever the government may think suitable)


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## Liverpool_fan (Jun 5, 2011)

In the end of the day, we wouldn't be having this debate if there were enough world class institutes offering professional courses with the latest and greatest technology in this country. Certainly the demand is there for professionals in various fields. Unfortunately the current education infrastructure is grossly underwhelming, out of date, and and totally crap if I was to ever put it plain across.
The way of filtering candidates is even more of a joke. Chemistry for CS students? BAH. If you ask me every student should be free to choose the field of this choice, provided he has an aptitude IN THAT field, and yeah there should be enough infrastructure within the state in which the person lives to pursue the course. It should never be the need for people to move states, except under exceptional conditions.




ssk_the_gr8 said:


> we should have criteria like only those people will get reservation who have annual income less than 4 lacs and assets less than a certain amount(whatever the government may think suitable)



I say only for those whose annual income is less than Rs.1 lakh. 4 lakh is pretty decent in this country, especially in small cities. At least enough to compete basically.


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## ssk_the_gr8 (Jun 5, 2011)

Liverpool_fan said:


> I say only for those whose annual income is less than Rs.1 lakh. 4 lakh is pretty decent in this country, especially in small cities. At least enough to compete basically.




let the government decide that.. 1 lac 2 lac whatever.. but it should be just on economic basis


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## Sarath (Jun 5, 2011)

cant be just on economic basis. Caste is easier as we know if the guys gone(has'nt made it) all this relatives are also screwed. So basically he has no hope.

That is why the social aspect to the reservation system.


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## ssk_the_gr8 (Jun 6, 2011)

Sarath said:


> cant be just on economic basis. Caste is easier as we know if the guys gone all this relatives are also screwed. So basically he has no hope.
> 
> That is why the social aspect to the reservation system.



what do u mean by the guys gone?


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## nims11 (Jun 6, 2011)

Liverpool_fan said:


> I say only for those whose annual income is less than Rs.1 lakh. 4 lakh is pretty decent in this country, especially in small cities. At least enough to compete basically.



right. i have few OBC friends eligible for reservation. they study in FIITJEE and goto a school with fees of 10K per 2 months.


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## mohityadavx (Jun 6, 2011)

nims11 said:


> right. i have few OBC friends eligible for reservation. they study in FIITJEE and go to a school with fees of 10K per 2 months.



Then they are cheating govt.

However u should make sure this is the case before commenting


as i also belong to OBC category 

and even my school fee is very high but i went to school on scholarship

even i went to FIITJEE but again i was on scholarship.

I had been thinking of going to a decent PVT college if i got scholarship but i wasn't able to get any, However i am still happy as i cracked CLAT and now finally at last i won't have to do engg as par my Dad's will but Law something i really wanted to do all these years.

PS:- Sorry i went off topic but i never wanted to take science but commerce.


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## Liverpool_fan (Jun 6, 2011)

nims11 said:


> right. i have few OBC friends eligible for reservation. they study in FIITJEE and goto a school with fees of 10K per 2 months.



Yup. And that's a problem of caste based reservation. If only it was economic based. But then that will never happen due to politics.


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## ico (Jun 6, 2011)

Here's how I look at it:

They were being screwed up by others for centuries, now it's their time to screw others. Fair/unfair enough.

Although reservation should be economically. But life isn't fair.


The Sorcerer said:


> No1 dares to think beyond IIT?





Liverpool_fan said:


> There is an IIPT?


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## soumo27 (Jun 6, 2011)

ico said:


> Here's how I look at it:
> 
> They were being screwed up by others for centuries, now it's their time to screw others. Fair/unfair enough.
> 
> Although reservation should be economically. But life isn't fair.



 .


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## The Conqueror (Jun 6, 2011)

Sarath said:


> Also to put it simply instead of having a hundred super strong mutant humans as the army its better to have ten thousand normal strong men in the army.


Instead of having 100 Mediocre doctors it is better to have 60 expert ones.
Now you got the point why MERIT or rather aptitude instead of forced reservation works.


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## Sarath (Jun 6, 2011)

It takes 50years to become an expert doctor. Comeon you dont need one unless you have multi organ failure. 

The ratio between number of doctors to the population is 1:20 in the UK and here its too dismal to even point it out.

And there is no such thing as a mediocre doctor.


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## MetalheadGautham (Jun 6, 2011)

I guess you could look at reservation as simply halving the number of available seats. Because when it comes to getting a job, I've seen many people who've managed to get into an NIT by virtue of reservation kicked out in a few years.... Its the same with private colleges' "Management Quota" seats as well. People get degrees by paying money to the college but none of them end up anywhere outside their "family business".

As I said before, in the end, those who deserve get what they want.


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## mohityadavx (Jun 6, 2011)

> those who deserve get what they want



Too true u must have noticed that even if someone has got into IIT/NIT/IIIT via reservation he is not an idot. 

See this year only difference between general & obc cutoff is of 18 marks. So an OBC must get minimum of 209 so atleast i think that the guy can't be a complete idiot as u r suggesting.


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## Sarath (Jun 6, 2011)

ico said:


> Here's how I look at it:
> 
> They were being screwed up by others for centuries, now it's their time to screw others. Fair/unfair enough.
> 
> Although reservation should be economically. But life isn't fair.





mohityadavx said:


> Too true u must have noticed that even if someone has got into IIT/NIT/IIIT via reservation he is not an idot.
> 
> See this year only difference between general & obc cutoff is of 18 marks. So an OBC must get minimum of 209 so atleast i think that the guy can't be a complete idiot as u r suggesting.



Well said.
And come on I am in college now doing my 3rd year. Its is already quite clear to me that getting admission into college based on what you have learnt in your school is just absurd.

When it comes to real life simply throwing in your A++ certificate isnt really going to land you a plush job.

Also Merit is a misnomer of sort. Only the one who works hard makes it to the top. The only exception to that is a genius.



MetalheadGautham said:


> I guess you could look at reservation as simply halving the number of available seats. Because when it comes to getting a job, I've seen many people who've managed to get into an NIT by virtue of reservation kicked out in a few years.... Its the same with private colleges' "Management Quota" seats as well. People get degrees by paying money to the college but none of them end up anywhere outside their "family business".
> 
> As I said before, in the end, those who deserve get what they want.



Well that is half true and rightly said when getting admission in a college by money wont land you a a nice degree.

What you are talking about is the uber rich guys. They can afford to just come in and waste all their money. Although they wont be doing as well as most of us they will however most likely be hiring people like you and me.

In my college and in the whole of karnataka there is a 35:65 CET:Management ratio in private institutions. And in my college the management students occupy half of the top 10 slots and the prime ones sometimes.


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## The Conqueror (Jun 7, 2011)

mohityadavx said:


> Too true u must have noticed that even if someone has got into IIT/NIT/IIIT via reservation he is not an idot.
> 
> See this year only difference between general & obc cutoff is of 18 marks. So an OBC must get minimum of 209 so atleast i think that the guy can't be a complete idiot as u r suggesting.



I'm not saying they are complete idiots but I am pointing towards the *unhealthy* competition. Lack of opportunity for GE candidates despite the constitution emphasizing on "Equality".


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## mohityadavx (Jun 7, 2011)

The Conqueror said:


> I'm not saying they are complete idiots but I am pointing towards the *unhealthy* competition. Lack of opportunity for GE candidates despite the constitution emphasizing on "*Equality*".



Equality??

See some of these quotes first:-



			
				ico said:
			
		

> They were being screwed up by others for centuries, now it's their time to screw others. Fair/unfair enough.



What about equality when these students can't afford coaching  like other general students don't general students have an edge over them then??? (Reservation is binding with economic T&C also)  



			
				abhijangda said:
			
		

> In, IITs we have 51.5% reservation more than half, so we can say that only less than half students in IITs are world class.



Get ur facts right it is never > 50% (Rajasthan is exception)  and in IIT its 50% only.


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## The Conqueror (Jun 7, 2011)

mohityadavx said:


> Equality??
> 
> See some of these quotes first:-
> 
> ...




1. Coaching is NOT necessary to get a good rank. Is that even an excuse for low cut off? If everyone is made available with financial resources, then I don't think that is a good excuse for low cut off. Seriously. 
2. Read my first post. Provide all the underprivileged with financial help.
3. To be precise the reservation is 51.5% in IIT, and  further reservation for shortlisting candidates for selection into IIT after JEE. 
4. *Remove all reservations, provide everyone equal financial resources*. Now compete. Where is equality?


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## mohityadavx (Jun 7, 2011)

> Coaching is NOT necessary to get a good rank



It helps a little whether u accept it or not atleast accept the fact that thesse children can get their doubts solved which their school/tuition teacher normally won't be able 2 solve.



> To be precise the reservation is 51.5% in IIT



How's that so actually i don't think so but i would believe u if u show some concrete evidence.


> Remove all reservations, provide everyone equal financial resources



Giving equal financial resources is not only tooo expensive but also politically dangerous to govt. Do u really think thats gonna be possible?


Nothing Personal My Friend!!


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## baiju (Jun 7, 2011)

Even if the reservation is 50%, the remaining 50% is open to (or in effect reserved to) the general category only. isn't it? (if an obc comes in the general quota, he is still counted as obc for admission, not in open quota.)


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## MatchBoxx (Jun 7, 2011)

As ico pointed out, GE category people exploited the SC/ST/OBC people for ages, and b'coz of their discrimination, the caste system came at the first place...if there were EQUALITY in the medieval age, then this situation wouldn't have arised! Even if we think that SC/ST/OBC are getting unfair advantages inspite of "being dumb", its really creating a financial balance in our community/society, as atleast they can earn a proper livelihood.


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## The Conqueror (Jun 7, 2011)

@mohit: Sorry, its actually 49.5% according to Wikipedia. But I saw in the counseling brochure that further reservation (about 6-8%) is given while selecting candidates after JEE. You can look up the counseling Brochure on JEE website.

BTW a good read : Reservation a Boon or Bane


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## mohityadavx (Jun 7, 2011)

The Conqueror said:


> @mohit: Sorry, its actually 49.5% according to Wikipedia. But I saw in the counseling brochure that further reservation (about 6-8%) is given while selecting candidates after JEE. You can look up the counseling Brochure on JEE website.
> 
> BTW a good read : Reservation a Boon or Bane



No apology required.

I don't want to read the prospectus of an institution who's entrance examination i have failed. 

However that reservation must be something like  reservation  within reservation and not on account of general seats

as constitution prohibits reservation > 50% ( The only exception is Rajasthan , However honourable Supreme Court consider it constitutionally violating)

PS :- I know this stuff as i am an aspiring lawyer.


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## Sarath (Jun 7, 2011)

Well now I get it. Come to college Conqueror. You will realise what is ground reality. How useful merit is in college. 

Just study well. Forget about reservation and stuff. Just believe in yourself. 

Equality is what everyone strives for but is not always possible. Even two children cannot be brought up equally(debatable), leading to sibling rivalry and stuff like that. A whole nation of a 100+ crore people, well, difficult.

They deserve the reservation and it doesnt matter what you and I think of it. 

Let me tell you again. Most India Institutes are not here to get the brightest and richest and create wealth miners out of you. They have a more social bent to their decisions. 
Look at primiere private institutes like BITS etc if you want only Merit and Money to do the talking.

Or else imaging a situation where it is quite the opposite. The weakest of students getting 100% admission in IITs and such and the most meritorious and brightest of students studying in the weaker colleges.
Such a situation will lead to proper equality. What say?


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## Liverpool_fan (Jun 7, 2011)

Sarath said:


> Or else imaging a situation where it is quite the opposite. The weakest of students getting 100% admission in IITs and such and the most meritorious and brightest of students studying in the weaker colleges.
> Such a situation will lead to proper equality. What say?



More like waste of talent (in case of bright students) and waste of resources (in case of not-so bright).


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## The Conqueror (Jun 7, 2011)

Sarath said:


> Well now I get it. Come to college Conqueror. You will realise what is ground reality. How useful merit is in college.
> 
> Just study well. Forget about reservation and stuff. Just believe in yourself.
> 
> ...


I got your point. Now, I agree with you.
Now, I will come over to Education System. 
I think the real institute or teacher is the one who can uplift a student with poor knowledge and make him intelligent. 

The success of most of the  institutions is *pre-selecting so-called intelligent students*out of pool. Of course, with this they don't need any extra efforts. 

In that case, one needs to change perspective of people that they should not see any *institution *as superior over others.


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## Sarath (Jun 7, 2011)

In the end its you. Reservation is just one of the hurdles in life. And a small one, which you will realise later.

A lot of things can come under critical review. There is no point criticizing everything. At the same time leaving things as it is, is a bigger mistake.

take my point. I might talk about a lot of things, even go on to the extent of saying I support Anna Hazare and stuff like that but when it comes to doing something there is hardly any contribution from me.

A good teacher can give you more than just information. What we need are good teachers.

The coaching schools are all predatory and trying to cash in on the students success.


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## abhinavmail1 (Jun 8, 2011)

Hi frnds i want to point few points

1. Many of us have a misconception that reservation is bases on caste but it not true let me explain you guys as in hindus some caste is considered as untouchable based on the work they do at that time hence the reservation is provided to them
now muslim religion is also divided into caste system but no one is considerd as untouchable hence no sc/st reservation is provided in muslim religion.

2. Reservation is attached to social status and not economic (exception obc bcoz they are not considered as untouchable at that time but they are economically backward ).now let me give u a example i had read in my text book during school days that dr. Ambedikar is officer in some govt. department but his peon used to give him a file by using some steel stick, 
so it obvious that he was an officer so he was earning handsome money and his economic condition was good but still he is facing discrimination that's why reservation is based on social status and not on economical satiuation of person


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## sygeek (Jun 8, 2011)

> now muslim religion is also divided into caste system but no one is considerd as untouchable hence no sc/st reservation is provided in muslim religion.


Muslims are divided into sects, not caste . It shouldn't be likewise but time has made the difference permanent and categorized.


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## Faun (Jun 8, 2011)

SyGeek said:


> Muslims are divided into sects, not caste . It shouldn't be likewise but time has made the difference permanent and categorized.



JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie


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## Sarath (Jun 8, 2011)

abhinavmail1 said:


> Hi frnds i want to point few points
> 
> 1. Many of us have a misconception that reservation is bases on caste but it not true let me explain you guys as in hindus some caste is considered as untouchable based on the work they do at that time hence the reservation is provided to them
> now muslim religion is also divided into caste system but no one is considerd as untouchable hence no sc/st reservation is provided in muslim religion.
> ...



Nicely put. I was unaware of that. 

However the constitution stipulates that reservation should not be made on the basis of religion. Hence there are no such reservations in place.


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## sygeek (Jun 8, 2011)

Faun said:


> JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie


Check out Wikipedia, that's something reliable .


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## Liverpool_fan (Jun 8, 2011)

abhinavmail1 said:


> let me give u a example i had read in my text book during school days that dr. Ambedikar is officer in some govt. department but his peon used to give him a file by using some steel stick,


That doesn't happen any longer in Urban Areas. The peon in question will be fired anyway. 
Rural areas, that's another issue, where I guess economy is already a joke, so they deserve reservation on basis of their social status.


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## The Conqueror (Jun 8, 2011)

But you gotta admit that social status today is better than it was 50 years ago.


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## asingh (Jun 8, 2011)

The Conqueror said:


> But you gotta admit that social status today is better than it was 50 years ago.



In small towns/villages it is pretty much the same. The xerox still runs even in the urban dwellers.


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## Sarath (Jun 9, 2011)

I agree with asingh here. The level of maturity expected from urban dwellers regarding discrimination is grossly missing.

Agree with conqueror too. yes social status has improved and will keep improving. But the pace of it is not good and healthy.
50years...50 long years and still there is so much discrimination. Why is it that everything we do has to be so slow?
Oh ofcourse except producing babies.


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## asingh (Jun 9, 2011)

Blame the Aryans.....


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## Faun (Jun 9, 2011)

Sarath said:


> I agree with asingh here. The level of maturity expected from urban dwellers regarding discrimination is grossly missing.
> 
> Agree with conqueror too. yes social status has improved and will keep improving. But the pace of it is not good and healthy.
> 50years...50 long years and still there is so much discrimination. Why is it that everything we do has to be so slow?
> Oh ofcourse except producing babies.



50 years are not long enough. Can you expect everything to go in a jiffy ?



SyGeek said:


> Check out Wikipedia, that's something reliable .



Yeah

*acquaintancewithletters.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/skeletor-editing1.jpg


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## Sarath (Jun 9, 2011)

Everyone has different perspectives about time scales. I really cant comment on that. 

In 50 years I expect a lot more than what has happened.

Nice one up there^^^ Wiki is not so reliable after all (this was a known fact since its inception)


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## Faun (Jun 9, 2011)

Sarath said:


> Everyone has different perspectives about time scales. I really cant comment on that.
> 
> In 50 years I expect a lot more than what has happened.
> 
> Nice one up there^^^ Wiki is not so reliable after all (this was a known fact since its inception)



Take out the average, i was just being mean about the time scale 

Should take 1-2 generations more.


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## sygeek (Jun 9, 2011)

Sorry, these guys really make me go off-topic.


> ^At least more reliable than other sources. They cite out the exact truth from a viewpoint of a third person. Other official sources tell the whole truth their way
> 
> I've tried editing it with invalid information (BS) but looks like it's hugely monitored.
> 
> ...



I remember Lalu saying "Aslee Bharat to yaha ke gao (village) mei hai". If this thought prevails in the minds of most of the politicians, we aren't going anywhere near higher quality of education system/any development in quality of life. I've seen people in villages having a high sense of superstition with the caste system. To be honest, I really don't give a damn of anyone's caste but people still go crazy over this.


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## Sarath (Jun 9, 2011)

I was not even aware of what caste is until I reached 9th grade. But then I knew whom to avoid and that has kept me in peace.

People who go all gaga over caste are like a generation in mindset behind us. 

[I remember some one telling me- "You can't date that girl. She is not from your caste. I was like FU bisch"]


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## Ishu Gupta (Jun 9, 2011)

> 8 July 301123213312.


Still seeing this


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## sygeek (Jun 9, 2011)

^ Changed back, see - Windows Fundamentals for Legacy PCs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. I'm done .


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## Sarath (Jun 9, 2011)

WOW! the savior of the internet


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## nisargshah95 (Jun 10, 2011)

nims11 said:


> btw my family can have OBC status in jharkhand
> but dad didnt apply for it.


That's good. You should be proud of your father. Nowadays people change their caste to get reservations benefits.



sammy_cool said:


> As ico pointed out, GE category people exploited the SC/ST/OBC people for ages, and b'coz of their discrimination, the caste system came at the first place...if there were EQUALITY in the medieval age, then this situation wouldn't have arised! Even if we think that SC/ST/OBC are getting unfair advantages inspite of "being dumb", its really creating a financial balance in our community/society, as atleast they can earn a proper livelihood.


+1.


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## Sarath (Jun 11, 2011)

Hey stop fuelling this thread.

I want to add another point:

In 2020 India will be a superpower. I like such jokes but dude this is not the right post for that.

All you have accomplished above is to look down upon someone rather than looking up to the ones who have achieved it. Oh yes of course give us a peek at your burning jealousy.


If you want to take this thread forward please post facts about:

What are the current accurate reservation statistics 
What are the criteria & percentage calculations for each category. How they are calculated and stuff.
Any real life incidents which has changed the life of an SC/ST guy
Any real life tragedies that has affected a guy who lost his (eligible in his eyes) seat to a SC/ST guy.


DISCLAIMER: If you have another, Look at that guy he has half the biceps as I do and still has a hotter girlfriend, kind of lamenting and crying to do then please spare us the horror. We have had enough of that.

And please come to college. We have bigger problems. Seriously. Yes.

P.S. Everything to be taken on a lighter note. If you cant then well...TRY AGAIN!


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## jhonny.s (Jun 21, 2011)

abhinavmail1 said:


> Hi frnds i want to point few points
> 
> 1. Many of us have a misconception that reservation is bases on caste but it not true let me explain you guys as in hindus some caste is considered as untouchable based on the work they do at that time hence the reservation is provided to them
> now muslim religion is also divided into caste system but no one is considerd as untouchable hence no sc/st reservation is provided in muslim religion.
> ...




Do you see these untouchable thing ...?
i dont think so..(at least in urban areas..)
then why you still implement this disgusting caste reservation system.

in 50% of the government schools teachers have less than 50% marks in  their studies. How do you expect these guys will make future citizens of INDIA who will compete with growing world.


Thanks.



sammy_cool said:


> Even if we think that SC/ST/OBC are getting unfair advantages inspite of "being dumb", its really creating a financial balance in our community/society, as atleast they can earn a proper livelihood.



Ohh! really..

I can give you one example of ' Financial Balance'.

I have one good freind, His Mom works for Govt, Dad works for Govt. and he gets stipend in proper time. Does he really need this money when his mom and dad working in Govt?

In our collage we used have a separate library collection for SC/ST students(funded by government), and only SC?ST students can lend them.
We used to bribe him with booze to get some really pricey titles on his name.

.Thanks.


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## comp@ddict (Jun 21, 2011)

Lets get back to the topic, for OBCs, unless you are poorly poor (below the so called creamy layer), you can't benefit.

So it's all to the SCs and STs.

Now let me put a scenario to make you guys understand:

"A student gets 95.8% in CBSE 12th boards. THe Cut off for a course at SRCC, DU is 96%. THe student misses his dream for 1 MARK. Now, half the seats in the course are reserved for SCs, STs(max) and OBCs. Now OBCs get a 2% relaxation in cut-offs. SCs get 9%. So a 87% guy (my friend) gets admission into SRCC with the 96% minded people.

Don't you think the 95.6% guy feels cheated? His dream shattered because HALF the SEATs are RESERVED for less deserving candidates?"

Think about it guys and make contributing and progressive replies.


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## mohityadavx (Jun 21, 2011)

comp@ddict said:


> Lets get back to the topic, for OBCs, unless you are poorly poor (below the so called creamy layer), you can't benefit.
> 
> So it's all to the SCs and STs.
> 
> ...



i won't say anything for SC/ST but for OBC see

First of all 2% is not a very big difference

Then see his economic conditions maybe he wasn't able to buy proper books (Old ragged books with pages missing ) not good enough tution to clear his doubt 

Seeing his economic condition u can guess most probably parents are also not educated enough to help him in studies.

Not good schoolong ( by good schooling i mean in pvt school with low fees the knowledge of teachers is pathetic and govt schools its a miracle even if teacher teach anything) 

U Really think 2% margin is not justified.


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## jhonny.s (Jun 22, 2011)

mohityadavx said:


> i won't say anything for SC/ST but for OBC see
> 
> First of all 2% is not a very big difference
> 
> ...



Again...Again...

why do you think only "OBC" is in that situation..?
do you think all Non reserved candidates have this facilities?

and if you think 2% dont make any difference..then there is no explanation..its up to you..


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## comp@ddict (Jun 22, 2011)

> First of all 2% is not a very big difference



it's 10% right now at DU. oops.


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## MetalheadGautham (Jun 22, 2011)

We've spoken long about "Reservation in IITs" and other government colleges. But anybody ever put some thought into the fact that expecting the Indian Government to be helpful to the democratic modern day cyber-era youth is anything but stupidity ?

Reason is government is elected by the Majority. And the majority in India is still living in poverty, ignorance and with completely (in our eyes) weird notions about what's right and what's wrong. More than half the country is brought up to believe that they cannot do anything to help themselves and its "fate" which has sent useless "netas" to rule them and they can do nothing other than re-elect them in the hope that they do something better in the next term. We're a minority. We're looking at crazy odds people: 10% "developed" nation vs 40% "developing" nation (where the "Aam Admi" as seen by TV media lies) and 50% "underdeveloped" nation (all the backward, oppressed, superstitious, racist, casteist and feudal people), all within The Democratic Republic of India.

Maybe 10% pays 50% of the taxes, but this still does not change that we're minority. And democracy means the rule of the majority. The rest are given the bare essentials to live, and the rest we gotta fend for ourselves 


PS: OK maybe I'm overreacting in this Rant, but this is the FIGHT CLUB


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## comp@ddict (Jun 23, 2011)

^^ General category face the trumpet

end of discussion.


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## ssk_the_gr8 (Jun 23, 2011)

@MetalheadGautham
well said. this is what i feel too


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## nims11 (Jun 26, 2011)

i have a doubt-
if a reservation eligible candidate(say ST) gets a seat through all-india ranking instead of reservation, will one reservation seat be counted his name? like, an institute had 1 seat reserved for ST, an ST got a seat through his "overall ranking", so that 1 reserved seat is gone, right?


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## Sarath (Jun 26, 2011)

nims11 said:


> i have a doubt-
> if a reservation eligible candidate(say ST) gets a seat through all-india ranking instead of reservation, will one reservation seat be counted his name? like, an institute had 1 seat reserved for ST, an ST got a seat through his "overall ranking", so that 1 reserved seat is gone, right?



umm what is your question?

He cannot opt for general quota as far as I know. Coz in that case if all the top ranks are held by the SC/ST they would fill up 50% general and then the rest 50% would be given to the weaker ones(studies) so that becomes 100% SC/ST.

Nope!

That doesnt happen. Wherever they join, even if they get more marks than the merit guy he still goes into the reservation category.


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## comp@ddict (Jun 26, 2011)

If you submit caste certificate, you fall under that category only.


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## tkin (Jun 26, 2011)

comp@ddict said:


> If you submit caste certificate, you fall under that category only.


Yes, thats true. If someone is good enough to qualify via gen catagory he does not need to apply for reservation, however the choice MUST be made before giving the exam.

Only thing I'd say, reservation needs to be done based on economic condition of the student, I've seen again and again rich people using caste certificate and boat load of tuitions to push their kids through college where true needy ones could not get them as they can not afford the tuitions.


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## Sarath (Jun 26, 2011)

they need to fall under the creamy layer. Not everyone is eligible.

you are talking about workarounds which is there in every system.


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## asingh (Jun 27, 2011)

*Please do not use inflammatory remarks and comments. Please keep this civil and maintain decorum.*

*Okay guys, all the OT has been removed. There is no BIAS here. Please understand and post in an adult fashion.

Else I will just lock it down. Your wish. 

Sarath, and Johnny, specially for both you.*


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## comp@ddict (Jul 9, 2011)

> they need to fall under the creamy layer. Not everyone is eligible.


Creamy layer is for OBC

yearly income below some 2 lakhs or something.


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## RizEon (Jul 13, 2011)

*two such instances that happened*

Okay hwew are a couple of experiences from my life about this topic
1. well i managed to crack JEE this year through non-quota. but two of my friends didn't. a third who had scored lower than them (significantly!) and wouldn't have qualified had he been general, is now studying in the same class as me through SC quota. another friend who performed less than me has got a better branch through OBC. 
How do they expect us not to hate the fact?? (no offence for the SC/ST/OBC ppl, I'm just pointing out at the system)

2, My parents are govt docs, and the same hospital has got some other docs who qualified through quotas. and they literally run away from complicated cases, bringing the hospital in news every few days over some "hungama"
You get them in, but how can you teach them?? what help are u doing to the country by bringing up some of the less talented lot up at the cost of leaving out sum better talents and brains just coz they were born in different families? (again no offence, but its a fact that more than a few better candidates miss out due to this fact...shudnt doctor as a profession be equivalent to army with no reservation pure raw merit??)


[EDIT] i do NOT intend flaming against any group, i am just pointing out a serious flaw....i don't hate u for the family u were born into that made u luckier in this country, I'm just jealous that I'm not and that I can't help it...

[EDIT] that guy who didnt get selected..he got thru in AIEEE with brilliant rank, but he cudnt apply for a better college because of fees factor 
and the guy who got selected through quota has a Nokia C6-01


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## Sarath (Jul 13, 2011)

^Hmm that is reservation. Well lets just say their ancestors lived in oppression for so long that now they are reaping the benefits. 

Although if my weak history knowledge, if you compare how unfair it is now, to unfair it was before, it was much much worse before.


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## tkin (Jul 13, 2011)

*Re: two such instances that happened*



RizEon said:


> Okay hwew are a couple of experiences from my life about this topic
> 1. well i managed to crack JEE this year through non-quota. but two of my friends didn't. a third who had scored lower than them (significantly!) and wouldn't have qualified had he been general, is now studying in the same class as me through SC quota. another friend who performed less than me has got a better branch through OBC.
> How do they expect us not to hate the fact?? (no offence for the SC/ST/OBC ppl, I'm just pointing out at the system)
> 
> ...


^^ Agree with you man, specially for docs, also we should abolish management quotas for docs as well, my neighbor payed through his nose to get her daughter to a medical college in chennai(or someplace), now she is dumber than dumbo, got barely 60% in 10th standard, and don't ask about 12th standard, wonder how many patients she will kill once she passes out, in todays indian economy money will literally buy you anything.


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## nims11 (Jul 13, 2011)

why do people get reservation at govt jobs??? they get into the institute through reservation, get the same education as the general which is supposed to bridge the gaps between them.


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## Saurav2007 (Jul 13, 2011)

When someone doesn't have any memory of oppression, then where is the question of discrimination. The idea of caste based discrimination has been hyped up through hyperbole by people who have their own vested interests. Actually, some contemporary historians consider modern caste identities to a large extent having been fossilized during the British rule for reasons which cannot be extrapolated here for lack of space and fear of digression. Ultimately, caste and religious based quotas were introduced by the British to pursue their policy of 'Divide and Rule' and which has been unfortunately appropriated by modern power hungry politicians.

Majority Hindus lived in great oppression in the period of Sultanate and the latter Mughal period with legal status of Dhimmis or second rate subjects. The country was partitioned by the Muslim League because they even refused to accept the democratic policy of one man one vote. But any idea of educational reservation against Muslims is entirely preposterous because we adopted a secular constitution and anyway it goes against the principles of natural justice. Instead, now some Muslim communities in WB have even given reservation apparently through the backdoor by including them uncritically into the OBC quota under pretext of socio-eco backwardness but that is the politics of appeasement and an entirely different issue altogether.

However, we also adopted a democratic constitution which isn't really compatible with pernicious caste based quotas which have reached proportions which in my opinion are not consistent with maintenance of operational efficiency, leave alone excellence in all sectors. 

Also, when we follow a policy of uncompromising merit, then it is not merely the meritorious individual but the entire society and ultimately nation which reaps the dividend. A meritorious doctor or surgeon is an asset for the entire community, not some particular parochial caste. An excellent transport system designed exclusively by meritorious individuals benefits all sections of society especially the most underprivileged since they are most dependent on public services. Same goes for all sectors of development. 

Some could argue that marks are not an index of merit and are an elitist construct. But even minimally they do hint at possibilities of potential and are used throughout the world. If marks are so entirely irrelevant, then why on earth maintain the pretense of minimal marks. (consider current hullaboo over decreasing eligibility marks of OBCs to around 40-50% instead of 10% less from last GC student cut-off) Since in the eyes of our great overflowing liberal class, marks are constructs directly proportional to socio-eco position, then the SC/ST/OBC canditates having least marks should be chosen since by this logic, they are the most underprivileged, weak and maximally oppressed in history.  Or instead, I hope one day we choose the wisdom of Aristotle who believed that the best flute makers, must get the flutes



comp@ddict said:


> Creamy layer is for OBC
> 
> yearly income below some 2 lakhs or something.



Its 5 lacs. 

How can someone earning 5 lac rupees be underprivileged is beyond my understanding.


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## lywyre (Jul 13, 2011)

Question is Who are minority?

India has a population of more than 1.3 billion and any one can easily fit into a minority category except a few. Even if reservation is implemented there should be no relaxation of merits which downright ridicules the purpose of merit and reflect badly on quality.

65 years on after Independence and we still are stuck with caste politics, let alone religion, territory, lingual and water politics.

Vision 2020 will remain only a dream unless reservation persists (along with corruption and lack of political will).


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## Sarath (Jul 14, 2011)

What surprises me is that people still discuss about castes and discriminate people based on that? I have never seen anything as inhuman as that. I stay away from such people like a plague. 

This for me is a bigger problem than a mere graduation.

Reservation is not perfect but what is worse that people who benefit from it are unlikely to pass it on to their lesser peers.


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## nims11 (Jul 14, 2011)

some rule like "if a person gets the benefit of reservation, his future generation will not be eligible for it" should be made. correct me if i am wrong.


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## ssingh011 (Aug 11, 2011)

abhinavmail1 said:


> Hi frnds i want to point few points
> 
> "....now let me give u a example i had read in my text book during school days that dr. Ambedikar is officer in some govt. department but his peon used to give him a file by using some steel stick, so it obvious that he was an officer so he was earning handsome money and his economic condition was good but still he is facing discrimination that's why reservation is based on social status and not on economical satiuation of person



Hi everyone....
I just stumbled  across this website while I was searching for some information about IIT's, and it proved to be an interesting reading. I will try and give you a different perspective in this whole issue under discussion.

Dear Abhinav, your made a good and valid point but please, it is "Dr. B.R. Ambedkar" and not "dr. Ambedikar" and he was not a "..officer in some govt. department...". Dr. B.R. Ambedkar was India's first Law minister and Chairman of the Constitution Drafting Committee, the man behind the drafting and formation of the Indian Constitution. He was a learned scholar, an eminent jurist and a revolutionary against social evils like untouchability and caste system. He was educated in Columbia University, Gray's Inn for Law and London School of Economics in Political science, Economics, Sociology, History, Philosophy, Anthropology and Law. His personal library had more than 50,000 books, more books than we will ever see in our life. I am a very avid reader but my library has about 3000 books till date. 

This is the problem with us today is that we relegate the people, who worked hard and sacrificed everything they had so we could live a good life today, to a few lines of some page in a textbook while goons are running this country.


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## ssingh011 (Aug 11, 2011)

Hi all..

The debate about reservation can go on and on....but let me share my thoughts and ask your opinions.

1. It is my perception after reading all the posts, that majority of people think that the SC/ST/OBC students have a very easy life handed to them on a platter just because they can secure a seat in some competitive exam based on their caste. Since people think SC/ST/OBC students have life so easy, would you or any reader of this blog like to be born as SC/ST/OBC in your next life?...If you chose to reply to this question (and I don't think any will), please do not go into rhetoric about why, when, how, what of reservation...it is a very simple question with a YES or NO answer...Since people think SC/ST/OBC students have life so easy, would you or any reader of this blog like to be born as SC/ST/OBC in your next life?

2. As for the argument of giving reservation based on economic conditions of the people...I wonder how much money allocated by the government for schemes for poor and BPL people actually reaches them, and how much goes into the pockets of the politicians and bureaucrats, majority of whom belong to, I wonder which, caste category...today if a businessman with earnings of lakhs can blatantly file an income tax return showing his earnings in thousands, how easy will it be for him to pay to get a poverty certificate made...BTW it is the SC/ST who constitute majority of the poor population of our country.

3. We talk about quota/reservation for women in parliament, in education, even seats in buses and bogies in metro trains..logic being that they were deprived of their rights and a standard of living for ages and need to be properly represented in all platforms. SC/ST/OBC had it even worse through the ages...read manu smriti if you really want to know (A Shudra is unfit of receiveing education. The upper varnas should not impart education or give advice to a Shudra. It is not necessary that the Shudra should know the laws and codes and hence need not be taught. Violators will go to as amrita hell. (Manu IV-78 to 81), A Brahmana who is only a Brahman by decent i.e., one who has neither studied nor performed any other act required by the Vedas may, at the king’s pleasure, interpret the law to him i.e., act as the judge, but never a Shudra (however learned he may be). (Manu VIII. 20.))....then why get all riled up when seats are reserved for them?

4. Think about it...I have a fixed percentage of seats reserved to compete within my category, you have a fixed percentage of seats to compete in your category. Then why do you look at my seats and my scores and get frustrated? Is it because you are incompetent to get a rank in the seats earmarked for you? I got a seat because I was the best in my category...you did not get a seat because you were not the best in your category, then why target your frustration at me and start comparing scores among different mutually exclusive categories?...If you start comparing categories then everyone will be worse for it...I think most of us belong to a middle class family, do you also get frustrated when you see big houses of the rich worth crores with swanky cars parked outside? Are you jealous of their children who study in your schools/colleges (they did not work to earn that money, they were just "born" in a rich family), that why they had it so easy and you will have to struggle in a 9-5 job for a long part of your life?...Did I hear you making a demand to abolish the concept of rich and poor in our country and that the rich should donate their money to the poor?

If it was not for the reservation thousands of SC/ST/OBC people who now have a job and are leading a respectable life would probably be living in poverty and hell. Oh!! i got my first study table when I was in third year of college even though my father was a govt. servant...we could not afford it...It has just been one generation after independence. That is too short time to see any significant change towards equality in society. For complete equality among all casts it will take many generations and even then this will probably remain an unfulfilled dream.

From the first day of college it is the discrimination and unspoken casteist comments which slowly destroys a persons moral and confidence, and this is responsible for the suicides and people flunking a course or leaving midway, not because they lacked in intelligence. By the time I pass out of college I am bitter with you and bitter with the society. If people can stop discriminating against me in school, in college, in job and throughout my whole life and can treat me as an equal I don't want reservation...because I am as good as anyone else and I can work as hard as anyone can...but if the discrimination and ridicule keeps coming in colleges and job interviews and even after getting a job, then better give me a separate seat.

And if you really can and are capable of treating me as an equal will be shown by your answer to my first question....Since people think SC/ST/OBC students have life so easy, would you or any reader of this blog like to be born as SC/ST/OBC in your next life?


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## The Conqueror (Aug 12, 2011)

Welcome to Thinkdigit Forums!




> .Since people think SC/ST/OBC students have life so easy, would you or any reader of this blog like to be born as SC/ST/OBC in your next life?


I think this question is beyond the scope of argument.




> 3. We talk about quota/reservation for women in parliament, in education, even seats in buses and bogies in metro trains..logic being that they were deprived of their rights and a standard of living for ages and need to be properly represented in all platforms. SC/ST/OBC had it even worse through the ages...read manu smriti if you really want to know (A Shudra is unfit of receiveing education. The upper varnas should not impart education or give advice to a Shudra. It is not necessary that the Shudra should know the laws and codes and hence need not be taught. Violators will go to as amrita hell. (Manu IV-78 to 81), A Brahmana who is only a Brahman by decent i.e., one who has neither studied nor performed any other act required by the Vedas may, at the king’s pleasure, interpret the law to him i.e., act as the judge, but never a Shudra (however learned he may be). (Manu VIII. 20.))....then why get all riled up when seats are reserved for them?





> 4. Think about it...I have a fixed percentage of seats reserved to compete within my category, you have a fixed percentage of seats to compete in your category. *Then why do you look at my seats and my scores and get frustrated? Is it because you are incompetent to get a rank in the seats earmarked for you?* I got a seat because I was the best in my category...you did not get a seat because you were not the best in your category, then why target your frustration at me and start comparing scores among different mutually exclusive categories?...If you start comparing categories then everyone will be worse for it...I think most of us belong to a middle class family, do you also get frustrated when you see big houses of the rich worth crores with swanky cars parked outside? Are you jealous of their children who study in your schools/colleges (they did not work to earn that money, they were just "born" in a rich family), that why they had it so easy and you will have to struggle in a 9-5 job for a long part of your life?...Did I hear you making a demand to abolish the concept of rich and poor in our country and that the rich should donate their money to the poor?


I do not agree with your statements.

I honestly feel that this reservation system itself creates discrimination among people by creating demarcations.
That's right. A person should be given a job not just on skills and because of belonging to a certain community but on a common measurable and reasonable yardstick which evaluates on the same lines for everyone. 
*When you say equality for everyone it should mean equality for everyone. * 

Why are you not willing for a single-cut off and merit list for ALL candidates based purely on merit? Who is trying to hide incompetencies here. If you can measure "talent" and "intelligent" students on their score in entrance tests then you should do it on the same lines for everybody.

Let us consider a situation of two students : 
A Bright student from a middle class family and a student from a poor family but intelligent are competing in an exam. The poor student got selected due to cut-off difference. I'm NOT saying that the one who got seat in his place did not deserve it but the system did not do justice with the middle class student as well.


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## Sarath (Aug 12, 2011)

The topics awaken from the dead again. Hmm lets see what comes of it.





The Conqueror said:


> Let us consider a situation of two students :
> A Bright student from a middle class family and a student from a poor family but intelligent are competing in an exam. The poor student got selected due to cut-off difference. I'm NOT saying that the one who got seat in his place did not deserve it but the system did not do justice with the middle class student as well.



Now let us evaluate your statement. Well there's just one seat. So either of them have a chance to get it. Neither has 100% nor 0% chance of getting it. Its definitely not 50% thats for sure.
The middle class guy gets it. Fine. Injustice to poor family guy.
The poor family guy gets it. Injustice to middle class guy.

This is going in loops. What are you trying to say my friend? Not to bend your words but; middle class guy loses the seat- injustice, but poor guy loses it, then, he is a real loser in life? despite reservation he screwed up, so deserves no respite?

One thing with life is: Life isn't fair. You just have to make the best out of it.



ssingh011 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I bow down in front of you. This is the first time maybe someone who is actually at the eye of the storm, has responded to this thread.

Change is happening but rather slowly. I think the constitution has given the power of reservation to empower people so that one day all will be financially equal but the human mind cannot be tamed so easily. The disease of inequality is ever persistent. Let us hope for the best.

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@To All

I just realised there are three kinds of reservations in college.

Reservation for the economically and socially backward [Reserved seats]
Reservation for the meritorious [Ranked seats]
Reservation for the rich [Management seats]


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## tkin (Aug 12, 2011)

Yes, but with management quota being 10% and caste quota being 50% what do normal students get? 40%, this is a pathetic joke, reservation should be made on economic stand off not caste, cause even in reserved seats wealthy students who can take tuitions stand better chance than those who are poor and cannot buy books or take tuitions, this is systematic discrimination, based on economy this time, rich get richer, poor gets poorer.

I am not against reservation, I am against the system in which wealthy(some of them  wealthier than most general cat students due the quota that their parents had utilized) scheduled caste students getting chances when meritorious and of course brilliant general as well as poor schedule caste students are not getting chances cause they cannot afford tuitions or are unable to study in good schools or collages.


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## The Conqueror (Aug 12, 2011)

@Sarath : See, now you are showing the fact that everyone has reservations and everyone is demanding his/her own reservation. 
This will go on and on. Each community is demanding their own reservation. _Reservation won't solve the problem but changing the mindset of society and promoting equality certainly would._


tkin said:


> I am not against reservation, I am against the system in which wealthy(some of them  wealthier than most general cat students due the quota that their parents had utilized) scheduled caste students getting chances when meritorious and of course brilliant general as well as poor schedule caste students are not getting chances cause they cannot afford tuition or are unable to study in good schools or collages.



I have seen students from extremely poor financial backgrounds and "below-average" rural schools scoring brilliantly without any coaching. 

 We don't need reservations in first place - whether one is rich/poor should not matter. Yes. Abolish the MANAGEMENT(DONATION) Seats. Now compete. I am repeating this thrice yet no one is willing to have equality by accepting a common yardstick(cut-off) for everyone.


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## asingh (Aug 12, 2011)

It is just political machinations and corruption.


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## ssingh011 (Aug 12, 2011)

This is a great discussion going on here...please forgive me if someone feels hurt by any of my comments...



The Conqueror said:


> I think this question is beyond the scope of argument.



Well the moderators did not think so....I beg to disagree with you...the question I asked and I will keep asking till I get a reply from someone...illustrates the exact reason why caste based reservation is a good idea..
I asked....Since people think SC/ST/OBC students have life so easy, would you or any reader of this blog like to be born as SC/ST/OBC in your next life?
5 posts by 4 people after mine and not even a single one replied YES or NO..
Isn't this an indication of how deeply entranced we are in the caste system and how incapable we are to change our mindset..then how will social equality ever come in the society?



The Conqueror said:


> I do not agree with your statements.



Please do elaborate what you don't agree with....don't you agree that women and backwards casts has a horrible life for centuries?...don't you agree that we should have a reservation for women, separate seats for them in buses and trains? or that you look at the grass on the other side of the fence and think it is greener, rather than taking care of your lawn to make it better?.



The Conqueror said:


> I honestly feel that this reservation system itself creates discrimination among people by creating demarcations.



Isn't the capitalist system we have in our country creating a demarcations between people by creating rich, middle-class and poor?? So shall we abolish it and start a socialist system....but then look what happened to USSR.. Reservation system creates a discrimination among people when people choose to forget, consciously, the real reasons of starting the concept of reservation and misdirect their emotions...



The Conqueror said:


> _Reservation won't solve the problem but changing the mindset of society and promoting equality certainly would._



Yes this is exactly what I agree with...but the people who need to change their mindset are the exact same people who are arguing to do away with caste based reservation....
A question for you....will you ever consider me...a Schedule Caste....as your equal?
As I understand from your comment above - you said - "I think this question is beyond the scope of argument.", you did not reply with a Yes or No.
I just asked a very simple question...either one should be bold enough to say that you consider yourself superior to me and will never give me the same status in the society as what you have...or you should practice what you preach...that you want to uplift the backward sections of the society and will go all out to do so...



tkin said:


> *Yes, but with management quota being 10% and caste quota being 50% what do normal students get? 40%, this is a pathetic joke*, reservation should be made on economic stand off not caste, cause even in reserved seats wealthy students who can take tuitions stand better chance than those who are poor and cannot buy books or take tuitions, this is systematic discrimination, based on economy this time, rich get richer, poor gets poorer.



SC: population 16.2% - reservation 15%, ST: population 8.1 percent, reservation 7.5%, OBC: population 29.8%, reservation 27% (it varies), General category: population 45.9%, reservation 50.5%.
More than 50% seats whether in colleges or in jobs, are yours to compete in and get selected. Don't you think you still got the biggest chunk of the pie? So don't complain, work hard...and compete in the 50%...it is a huge number.......or is it that you want the whole 100% to yourself...isn't that being a little greedy. 

@ Sarath...Thank you for your comment.

Again for the proponents of reservation based on economic conditions of the people...It will be a very ineffective way to bring any equality to the society...Lets say we abolish all reservations and start it based on how much a person earns...anyone whose parents earn less 1 lac will get a reservation in colleges...so a student gets admission and starts his studies...he has a sibling who is two years younger...in two years, by the time that sibling gets ready for college admission....his parents income becomes 1 lac 5 thousand...so he is denied reservation in college...So what happens....either his parents make sure not to increase their income beyond 1 lac till all their children get admission in college...which is forcing people to work less, increase the  economic divide and basically asking them to stagnate...OR they will hide their true income which is forcing people to lie on purpose...OR if they declare their true assets...it creates a huge sibling rivalry and ill feeling towards the parents....Of course we could raise the minimum limit of earning capacity every year based on inflation but that will be a very cumbersome task...what is presented here is a simplistic view of the system but this is what will happen!!! One thing we need to realize is that in big cities it may be that some SC/ST/OBC may be living a luxurious life but overall it is these category of people who are the poor of our country...so the caste based system does also take into account the economic conditions of the people... 

We have reservation based on Caste, Management quota, Gender based, Religion based, Minorities based, State of domiciles, Sons/Daughters/Grandsons/Granddaughters of Freedom Fighters,     Physically handicapped, Sports personalities, Non-Resident Indians (NRIs), Sponsored candidates, Ex-Armed forces, Dependents of armed forces personnel killed in action, Repatriates, Reservation in special schools of Government Undertakings /PSUs meant for the children of their employees, Paid pathway reservations in places of worship (e.g. Tirupathi Balaji Temple, Tiruthani Murugan (Balaji) temple) and Seat reservation for Senior citizens/ PH in Public Bus transport.

But the only time I hear about reservation is the caste based reservation. If people want to abolish caste based reservation shall we also abolish reservation based on management quota or domicile or freedom fighter or ex-armed forces and all others? Why have a domicile based reservation...Indian is one country...If I am living in Pune why can't I compete for a seat in Rajasthan?

Yes, even I strongly agree that in an ideal world and free country, any kind of reservation is bad. But is India a free country or are these ideal times? You may castigate me as much as you want but it is the truth that India is caste-divided, corrupt country. Want me to give you a list of all the scams/scandals which happened in India, by which wealth of this country was looted, and the caste of all the people who were involved in them?? It will be a revelation for you. Here, reservation is a necessity for the socially and economically underprivileged people, who were intentionally kept backward for ages. Again I will quote - "God said the duty of a Shudra is to serve the upper varnas faithfully with devotion and without grumbling. (Manu 1-91)"; "A Shudra who insults a twice born man with gross invectives shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low origin. (Manu VIII. 270.)"; "No Shudra should have property of his own, He should have nothing of his own. The existence of a wealthy Shudra is bad for the Brahmins. A Brahman may take possession of the goods of a Shudra. (ManuVIII-417 & X129)"; "Brahmins to give Shudras food leftovers, old torn clothes, spoiled grain and old utensils (Manu X-125)"

There is a big discussion that reservation is spoiling the academic quality of IIT's and AIIMS and is a hindrance in the development of India. First, tell me how many students from IIT's, IIM's and AIIMS complete the studies and go to a foreign country to earn big bucks and live a better standard of life?  If one of your goals is to study from IIT and IIMs and go abroad then stop harping about development of India. You are just wasting the resources of this country. After you leave, it will be the SC/ST/OBC who will stay in India to serve this country. Yes, they wont be able to go...lack of money, lack of opportunity, lack of awareness, lack of talent (as you say), lots of reasons from them to stay here…


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## ico (Aug 12, 2011)

I'd say just add the creamy and non-creamy condition to SC/ST too. This solves the problem. Sibling rivalry? live with it. GE/SC/OBC/ST rivalry is "okay" because one community is getting the benefit but sibling rivalry is not. 

Also, I wonder whether kids who have nobody get reservation or not. 

PS: I'm in support of reservation, but the current system needs to be streamlined.


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## Sarath (Aug 12, 2011)

Reservation is not for the economically backward. There are incentives for the economically backward.

Reservation is for the socially backward. They get no social incentives. And monetary incentives do not have much benifits when it comes to social uplifting them.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The creamy layer already exists. I am excluded out by it. I was convinced by my Dad that I will get some kind of reservation if I study in India. After coming here I learnt a few facts.

~I didn't know the reservation was based on caste. Heck I didn't even know what caste was.
~I was not eligible for the reservation as I was well above the creamy layer
~Even the category I had a "ghost" reservation in died and I became a general category student during the course of +2 
~I don't even have domicile reservation since I was new to my own state. Xenophobia.
~Being a non resident for so long I was put through much hardships and repeated tests so as to prove to be eligible to study. The exam was easy though 

So basically I had travelled thousands of miles to become worse than a General Category student [General category atleast have domicile reservation] HOWEVER EDUCATION HERE IS MUCH MUCH BETTER, SO I HAVE NO COMPLAINS 

However loopholes exist in this system, whereby undervaluing your yearly income can get you a seat, but that has a few problems:
~ Ideally a simple complain should get your seat cancelled
~By undervaluing income submission, you risk rubbing the wrong side of the income tax dept. which is against the law and a big screwup

In my own experience I have never seen anyone getting reservation wrongly, hence I am left with limited knowledge.

Loopholes exist in every system. Some people exploit them. Some don't. Generalising any one of them is not a good thing to do.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well I myself have been supporting reservation in this thread, although I personally hate every kind of reservation. Also I have neither benefited nor lost anything to a reservation system. So maybe I can maintain a neutral tone. 

Also this argument is going one sided. We have on one side *ssingh011* who is putting valid points without going overboard. But on the other we only have jealousy pangs or selfish statements like -"I want all seats as I am intelligent and he is a retard"

More appropriate would be a general category student who has lost a lot due to reservation, not just the seat and such a system has had considerable derogatory effect on the persons life.
I say this because a SC/ST or other reserved category student receives much more than just a seat in a college when he gets an admission into one of these. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Before writing further, I would like to mention that I am studying in a college on a management seat. 

Now for the unfairest of reservations. The unintelligent , socially obese and insanely rich.
Now management quota only exists in private colleges. 

Now a private college is just another business for them. They run it with the management seats in priority, the merit students for the ranks and the underprivileged just for the sake of the govt.

If there are no management seats honestly the kind of college I am studying in (will not give details) it is safe to say that it will shut down if even half the management seats are taken down. What is the bearing of all this.

No money= College shuts down > 50% GE seats dead> whatever percent management and reserved seats dead. No college = less people get education. Why would they even bother running a college when it would be more profitable to run a poultry farm?

But despite all thats written I still consider the management seats to be the unfairest of all. If you have watched the movie 2012 you would see similar comparison when the protagonist says that "these people do not look like the best of the human race" when he receives a response that "without private funding none of these ships could have been built". Ideally, in an ideal world just the best gene pool should have been selected, but in the real world, its better to have 4 ships with private junkies than have just one ship or a half for the best of the best. - However I still maintain that that the protagonist is right, it just that such idealistic views wont have worked out.


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## ssingh011 (Aug 13, 2011)

tkin said:


> Yes, but with management quota being 10% and caste quota being 50% what do normal students get? 40%, this is a pathetic joke, reservation should be made on economic stand off not caste...



I have a question for *tkin*...as of today there is 50% reservation for SC/ST/OBC...it varies from state to state but reservation is pretty much capped at 49.5% almost everywhere...you feel that the 40% seats available for you is a pathetic joke, and reservation should be made only on the basis of economic conditions of the people....my question is...*if we do away with the caste based reservation and reserve seats only on the basis of economic condition of the people...what percentage of seats will you reserve for the economically weaker section.....10%, 20%, 30%, 40%...?*


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## tkin (Aug 13, 2011)

ssingh011 said:


> I have a question for *tkin*...as of today there is 50% reservation for SC/ST/OBC...it varies from state to state but reservation is pretty much capped at 49.5% almost everywhere...you feel that the 40% seats available to for you is a pathetic joke, and reservation should be done only on the basis of economic conditions of the people....my question is...*if we do away with the caste based reservation and reserve seats only on the basis of economic condition of the people...what percentage of seats will you reserve for the economically weaker section.....10%, 20%, 30%, 40%...?*


Straight 50%.


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## ssingh011 (Aug 13, 2011)

tkin said:


> Straight 50%.



50% is a pretty good number...
And what should be the minimum income to qualify for reservation based on economic criteria?


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## Tech&ME (Aug 13, 2011)

asingh said:


> It is just political machinations and =corruption.



+ 1 

It is true that politics plays a major role in all this. There are vested interest, which calls for such systems to spoil our education system.


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## tkin (Aug 13, 2011)

ssingh011 said:


> 50% is a pretty good number...
> And what should be the minimum income to qualify for reservation based on economic criteria?


30% for families earning below 10k per month, 20% for those earning 10-30k per month, this is just an idea but proper segmentation depending on income per person of the family should be made. There are also other factors to be considered, like expense per person decrease exponentially when no. of members in a family increases etc.


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## ico (Aug 13, 2011)

Sarath said:


> The creamy layer already exists.


It exists only for OBCs. My best friend whose father has a very reputed govt. job got reservation. Despite having an AIEEE rank multiple times worse than mine, he got into a very very good college. Now you think did he deserve it? There is no creamy system in his category btw. And I also know a lot of OBC with 30 lakhs per anum income - yet they have OBC non-creamy certificate.

PS: Don't assume that I belong to any particular category. I'm giving neutral opinions.


Sarath said:


> Also this argument is going one sided. We have on one side *ssingh011* who is putting valid points without going overboard.


Valid points with absolute bollocks in between like sibling rivalry if the parents cross the criteria, parents will be 'afraid' of crossing the criteria and thus wouldn't want to earn more. If the parents' have crossed the income criteria, it is their failure to net give their younger son enough facilities as simple as that. He also needs to streamline his argument - give valid facts/opinions. Don't utter bollocks along with them.


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## Liverpool_fan (Aug 13, 2011)

Oh dear what a point that was.


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## nims11 (Aug 13, 2011)

slightly offtopic to the current point of debate but i would like to share my observation.

reservation was there to uplift the OBC/SC/ST to bring them at the level of general category people. take the case of OBCs, the cutoffs for them in IITJEE was not so pathetic this time and they also did well in AIEEE. for eg, in IITJEE, their cutoff was 203 which was quite good and in AIEEE there were almost a 1000 OBCs above my 6.5K rank. so acc. to me , OBCs are competent enough to do good in competetive exams and a reservation is giving them an unfair advantage.

as far as SC/ST are concerned, i feel reservation isnt doing any good to the country.


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## Sarath (Aug 13, 2011)

ico said:


> Valid points with absolute bollocks in between like sibling rivalry if the parents cross the criteria, parents will be 'afraid' of crossing the criteria and thus wouldn't want to earn more. If the parents' have crossed the income criteria, it is their failure to net give their younger son enough facilities as simple as that. He also needs to streamline his argument - give valid facts/opinions. Don't utter bollocks along with them.



Oh ya i forgot to mention that. I could'nt re-read the whole thing and only remembered what I wrote.

However I was going to mention that the vedas are very old and not in practise today. Although having historical importance their influence cannot be directly attributed.

No one would reduce their income, that was an absurd point. But yes people will show that they have an income far less than they actually do especially self earning members.

@ico- if you think he doesnt deserve it, you are quite aware that a simple complain will get his seat cancelled. Do you not think so?

^  can someone quote where he mentioned sibling rivalry. I just cant see it. There is too much to read I guess.

Also I was of the opinion that reservation was absurd until I met a few SC/ST candidates. It is surprisingly shocking and disgusting at the same time that even learned and well to do people do not hesitate to met out differential treatment to these people. That is a pretty sorry state.


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## ico (Aug 13, 2011)

ssingh011 said:


> Again for the proponents of reservation based on economic conditions of the people...It will be a very ineffective way to bring any equality to the society...Lets say we abolish all reservations and start it based on how much a person earns...anyone whose parents earn less 1 lac will get a reservation in colleges...so a student gets admission and starts his studies...he has a sibling who is two years younger...in two years, by the time that sibling gets ready for college admission....*his parents income becomes 1 lac 5 thousand...*so he is denied reservation in college...So what happens....either his parents make sure not to increase their income beyond 1 lac till all their children get admission in college...which is forcing people to work less, increase the  economic divide and basically asking them to stagnate...OR they will hide their true income which is forcing people to lie on purpose...OR if they declare their true assets...*it creates a huge sibling rivalry and ill feeling towards the parents.*...Of course we could raise the minimum limit of earning capacity every year based on inflation but that will be a very cumbersome task...what is presented here is a simplistic view of the system but this is what will happen!!! One thing we need to realize is that in big cities it may be that some SC/ST/OBC may be living a luxurious life but overall it is these category of people who are the poor of our country...so the caste based system does also take into account the economic conditions of the people...


quoted.


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## Sarath (Aug 13, 2011)

ico said:


> It exists only for OBCs.



You want creamy layer for SC/ST also? Why?

Financial stength of just one generation is hardly enough to pull them out of discrimination.


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## ico (Aug 13, 2011)

Sarath said:


> @ico- if you think he doesnt deserve it, you are quite aware that a simple complain will get his seat cancelled. Do you not think so?


I don't think there is any income criteria for SC/ST?



Sarath said:


> You want creamy layer for SC/ST also? Why?
> 
> Financial stength of just one generation is hardly enough to pull them out of discrimination.


It is enough.

If one generation has been elevated sufficiently, it is not necessary for the next generation to get the same benefit. Reduce reservation for the second generation.

Now do you think a child of an IAS officer should be getting reservation?


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## Sarath (Aug 13, 2011)

ico said:


> quoted.



my browser ate up all that I typed. 

But again in short that is not a valid point. Its again another assumption or and looks more theoritical than practical. 

Also if reservation is to be taken off then how is one to uplift their social status?


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## ico (Aug 13, 2011)

Sarath said:


> Also if reservation is to be taken off then how is one to uplift their social status?


Reservation doesn't help you to uplift your social status directly. It first helps you to achieve an economic status. Social status is a by-product.

Infact, mentality of people in the 21st century is changing. Everyone has started to realize caste system was such bollocks. Reservation hasn't played much role in changing the mentality of people - you very well know this. Society evolution has played a bigger role.


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## Ishu Gupta (Aug 13, 2011)

Are lives for SC/ST people really that bad?

I for one never knew that many of my friends were SC/ST, until they showed me a certificate with a grin ("Mere pass quota he ").

Their being SC/ST didn't make a diff to our friendship.


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## ico (Aug 13, 2011)

Ishu Gupta said:


> Are lives for SC/ST people really that bad?


For most, it is the case. Their areas are still underdeveloped. Many have come out of it socially and economically. This is also true.


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## Sarath (Aug 13, 2011)

Ishu Gupta said:


> Are lives for SC/ST people really that bad?
> 
> I for one never knew that many of my friends were SC/ST, until they showed me a certificate with a grin ("Mere pass quota he ").
> 
> Their being SC/ST didn't make a diff to our friendship.



I wouldnt say there are very few people like you but definitely say there there are a lot less people like you then there should be.

Honestly for the kind of atrocities they face physical and psychological I think reservation hardly makes any difference.

@Ishu: like you even I wasn't aware until it was announced in the college that who all would get seats. I was pretty bright back then and had a place in the top ranks, but there were atleast 4 more people below me whose names were taken. I should have cried about it but it took me 2mins to realise that crying about was hardly going to help and concentrating on the 2 others in front of me was a bigger criteria. 
Today a few of them have got seats, I am sure I am better than then but that is no reason for me to cry that I deserved it more than him.


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## Ishu Gupta (Aug 13, 2011)

Sarath said:


> I wouldnt say there are very few people like you but definitely say there there are a lot less people like you then there should be.


Its not just me though. No one I know cares.


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## ico (Aug 13, 2011)

Ishu Gupta said:


> Its not just me though. No one I know cares.


This.

The whole argument of posters in this thread is based on "social backwardness" - we (most of the educated ones) have almost come out of it. It is 21st century ffs - only a few uneducated people give a damn about those things now. Don't make it sound like everyone gets discriminated and everyone needs reservation despite being economically/socially stable. 50 more years, and this stigma will be wiped out.

It has to be economically. I'm ending this thread on this note.


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