# See how Lokpal Bill can curb the politicians



## noob (Aug 18, 2011)

*MUST READ*


*Existing System​ *
 | 
*System Proposed by civil society​ *

No politician or senior officer ever goes to jail despite huge evidence because Anti Corruption Branch (ACB) and CBI directly come under the government. Before starting investigation or prosecution in any case, they have to take permission from the same bosses, against whom the case has to be investigated. |Lokpal at centre and Lokayukta at state level will be independent bodies. ACB and CBI will be merged into these bodies. They will have power to initiate investigations and prosecution against any officer or politician without needing anyone’s permission. Investigation should be completed within 1 year and trial to get over in next 1 year. Within two years, the corrupt should go to jail.

No corrupt officer is dismissed from the job because Central Vigilance Commission, which is supposed to dismiss corrupt officers, is only an advisory body. Whenever it advises government to dismiss any senior corrupt officer, its advice is never implemented. | Lokpal and Lokayukta will have complete powers to order dismissal of a corrupt officer. CVC and all departmental vigilance will be merged into Lokpal and state vigilance will be merged into Lokayukta. 


No action is taken against corrupt judges because permission is required from the Chief Justice of India to even register an FIR against corrupt judges.  | Lokpal & Lokayukta shall have powers to investigate and prosecute any judge without needing anyone’s permission. 

Nowhere to go - People expose corruption but no action is taken on their complaints.  | Lokpal & Lokayukta will have to enquire into and hear every complaint. 

There is so much corruption within CBI and vigilance departments. Their functioning is so secret that it encourages corruption within these agencies.    | All investigations in Lokpal & Lokayukta shall be transparent. After completion of investigation, all case records shall be open to public.  Complaint against any staff of Lokpal & Lokayukta shall be enquired and punishment announced within two months. 

Weak and corrupt people are appointed as heads of anti-corruption agencies.  | Politicians will have absolutely no say in selections of Chairperson and members of Lokpal & Lokayukta. Selections will take place through a transparent and public participatory process. 

Citizens face harassment in government offices. Sometimes they are forced to pay bribes. One can only complaint to senior officers. No action is taken on complaints because senior officers also get their cut.  | Lokpal & Lokayukta will get public grievances resolved in time bound manner, impose a penalty of Rs 250 per day of delay to be deducted from the salary of guilty officer and award that amount as compensation to the aggrieved citizen. 

Nothing in law to recover ill gotten wealth. A corrupt person can come out of jail and enjoy that money.  | Loss caused to the government due to corruption will be recovered from all accused. 

Small punishment for corruption- Punishment for corruption is minimum 6 months and maximum 7 years.  | Enhanced punishment - The punishment would be minimum 5 years and maximum of life imprisonment. 



Who is the leader of youth of INDIA .....................

ARVIND KEJRIVAL:-


Mechanical Engineer -IIT Kharagpur



Job :-Tata Steel
Former IRS (Indian Revenue Services)resigned from the Govt.job (posted IT Commissioner’s office)

Social Activist:-
Man behind (Right to Information Act).
LokPal bill

Awards Various Ashoka Fellow, Civic Engagement.
2005: 'Satyendra Dubey Memorial Award', IIT Kanpur for his campaign for bringing transparency in Government
2006: Ramon Magsaysay Award for Emergent Leadership.
2006: CNN-IBN, 'Indian of the Year' in Public Service
2009: Distinguished Alumnus Award, IIT Kharagpur for Emergent Leadership.
2010: Policy Change Agent of the Year, Economic Times Corporate Excellence Award along with Aruna Roy.
Fighting against corruption

.............He left his job in IRS to fight against corruption.




RAHUL Gandhi:-
Education- failed to secure passing grades in National Economic Planning and Policy graduated by any how
job: Got ancestral political power and running through it
Award: he is making awards not getting it
Fight against Indians sentiments

For him Terror attacks are common thing...
we should not be worried of that.....let it happen(since they have z class security)

he will never talk about Govt. policies....and planning....since he 
is not intelligent enough to grasp that.(claimed to be most eligible to be PM)

Won't talk about black money and corruption. 

will never talk in Parliament.

No political vision and goals for nation .

Trained well to fool poor villagers with safed kurta ..nd khadhi(doing same in UP and other places.)



Achievements:-
Grandson OF Nehru,
Grandson of Indira 

Gandhi
Son Of Rajiv Gandhi....
FRom Gandhi Family.....
till now zero...





..............Claimed to be nxt PM of INDIA ..Future face of congress.


----------



## thetechfreak (Aug 18, 2011)

noob said:
			
		

> someone post BBC code with table with 1 row and 2 cols
> 
> wanna post something real good



Whats this? I really cont figure the use of this thread


----------



## Skud (Aug 18, 2011)

Probably under construction. 

I guess there's an email doing the round, and he is going to give the details in a tabular form comparing it to the "limitations" of the existing laws/acts.


----------



## noob (Aug 19, 2011)

yes, that a very good info but dont know how to put TABLE with 2 cols in it.


----------



## Skud (Aug 19, 2011)

I guess its like this:



1st row 1st column|1st row 2nd column
2nd row 1st column|2nd row 2nd column

code:


1st row 1st column|1st row 2nd column
2nd row 1st column|2nd row 2nd column[/ TABLE]

remove the space between "/ table"


----------



## noob (Aug 19, 2011)

Thanks..Thread updated now.


----------



## king_of all (Aug 19, 2011)

nice info


----------



## Skud (Aug 19, 2011)

Good compilation. Align the headings to center.


----------



## Tech&ME (Aug 19, 2011)

Hmmmmmmm..... System Proposed by Civil Society is not implementable. 

1. You cannot merge CBI and make it completely transparent.

2. IF you want to investigate Political persons / govt. officers / other civil servants without permission of any kind, then a new body should be created. (eg: FBI in usa )

3. quote "Lokpal & Lokayukta shall have powers to investigate and prosecute any judge without needing anyone’s permission." unquote

So, will Lokpal and Lokayukta itself become the JUDGE ? No Police required, No Judiciary Bench required.... that is not feasible.

4. Life imprisonment cannot be given to a  2nd degree offence. Even sometimes it is not given for a 3rd degree offence. 

5. What about the Human Rights of the person committed the offence of corruption. Does human rights allow Life Imprisonment.

6. Life Imprisonment can only be given under the CrPC act. And corruption does not amount to any offence under the CrPC act. 

7. Govt. of India formed "N I A" to put terrorist behind bars. And it was successful in doing so. ( Still more powers to be given to it. Trial should only be done by Supreme Court. )

8. Why NGOs are kept out of the ambit of the Lokpal ? Saw kejriwal brushing away from media on this question just now.


----------



## Skud (Aug 19, 2011)

I don't know if you are a lawyer or not, at least I am not. And noobs like us are findings so much flaws over the proposed law, guess how many loopholes the Jethmalanis are going to find. 

Epic hype, and it's going to be an epic fail.


----------



## Tech&ME (Aug 19, 2011)

^^

100% Agree with you 

I am not a lawyer but have gained some knowledge in this.


----------



## MetalheadGautham (Aug 19, 2011)

The Aryans invaded India with the help of corruption.
Our religion is science's corruption.
King Chandragupta Maurya became a KING because of corruption.
His grandson Ashoka's empire came DOWN because of corruption.
Mughals entered India because of corruption.
Mughal empire grew and fell both because of corruption.
Europians invaded India and looted it because of corruption.
The Revolt of 1857 failed because of corruption.
Many Indians have independence only in name because of corruption.
Indian politicians get elected because of corruption.
Quality Education is a precious and rare commodity because of corruption.
The very media which talks about corruption is filled with corruption.

And people plan to remove it ?
To be corrupt is to be Indian, and no matter how much Indian cultural lobbyists argue against this statement, history sadly proves it


----------



## Skud (Aug 19, 2011)

+infinity.


----------



## eagle_y2j (Aug 20, 2011)

Tech&ME said:


> Hmmmmmmm..... System Proposed by Civil Society is not implementable.




1. You cannot merge CBI and make it completely transparent.

** Only Anti-Corruption wing of CBI is being made to come under Lokpal. Lokpal being independent like "Election Commissioner of India, CAG and CIC will definetly bring effective transparency .*

2. IF you want to investigate Political persons / govt. officers / other civil servants without permission of any kind, then a new body should be created. (eg: FBI in usa )

** No effective criminal investigation can take place by multiplicity of investigation agencies and most importantly when FIR is lodged no one can predict who all are culprits so different agencies and permissions will make system complex *

3. quote "Lokpal & Lokayukta shall have powers to investigate and prosecute any judge without needing anyone’s permission." unquote

So, will Lokpal and Lokayukta itself become the JUDGE ? No Police required, No Judiciary Bench required.... that is not feasible.

** Lokpal is only to investigate the corruption charges independently no prosecuting powers are with Lokpal.*

4. Life imprisonment cannot be given to a  2nd degree offence. Even sometimes it is not given for a 3rd degree offence. 

** Corruption amounts to human rights violation and is root cause of most social evils*

5. What about the Human Rights of the person committed the offence of corruption. Does human rights allow Life Imprisonment.

** Yes ,there is no mention of breach of human rights in UN Charter for human rights for reasonable Life Imprisonment.Culprits needs punishment to keep society clean.*

6. Life Imprisonment can only be given under the CrPC act. And corruption does not amount to any offence under the CrPC act. 

* *Totally ignorant comment ,sincerely i would like to submit as follows :

1. Cr.PC is first of all is Criminal Procedure Code not any Act .

2. Present Prevention of Corruption Act makes corruption punishable offense.

3. Several provisions of IPC also punish corruption in present system .

4.But there is lack of independent corruption investigation agency .

*
7. Govt. of India formed "N I A" to put terrorist behind bars. And it was successful in doing so. ( Still more powers to be given to it. Trial should only be done by Supreme Court. )

**Why Supreme Court only? *

8. Why NGOs are kept out of the ambit of the Lokpal ? Saw kejriwal brushing away from media on this question just now.
* *Lokpal is there to look after corruption of public servants who at any level draw their salary from public exchequer ! 
Lokapal can't be expected to look after corruption of private money .Media Houses corruption ,NGO corruption are not related with public exchequer. *


----------



## Skud (Aug 20, 2011)

eagle_y2j said:


> 8. Why NGOs are kept out of the ambit of the Lokpal ? Saw kejriwal brushing away from media on this question just now.
> * *Lokpal is there to look after corruption of public servants who at any level draw their salary from public exchequer !
> Lokapal can't be expected to look after corruption of private money .Media Houses corruption ,NGO corruption are not related with public exchequer. *




Not exactly correct. Lots of NGOs receive Govt. funds (ie public money) from various sources particularly from NABARD both in form of grant and loan. They must come under the ambit of Lokpal by the same logic of public exchequer.


----------



## Tech&ME (Aug 20, 2011)

eagle_y2j said:


> ** Only Anti-Corruption wing of CBI is being made to come under Lokpal. Lokpal being independent like "Election Commissioner of India, CAG and CIC will definetly bring effective transparency .* ..... etc  .....



Your points re-answered below in *GREEN*

1. You cannot merge CBI and make it completely transparent.

** Only Anti-Corruption wing of CBI is being made to come under Lokpal. Lokpal being independent like "Election Commissioner of India, CAG and CIC will definetly bring effective transparency .*

*Ok, but since the JanLokpal Bill says Lokpal will carry out its own investigation, so in that case where does the Anti - Corruption Division of CBI go.*

2. IF you want to investigate Political persons / govt. officers / other civil servants without permission of any kind, then a new body should be created. (eg: FBI in usa )

** No effective criminal investigation can take place by multiplicity of investigation agencies and most importantly when FIR is lodged no one can predict who all are culprits so different agencies and permissions will make system complex *

*I said if JanLokpal bill talks about "NO PERMISSION required" to investigate, then separate agency should be created instead of merging CBIs Anti-Corruption Division into Lokpal because Lokpal itself cannot do all the investigation by itself, that will become a very BIG TASK for it, seeing the length of this Country. Also Lokhayukta in states will not really help since they too will need a separate investigating agency to look at every case (case by case) *

3. quote "Lokpal & Lokayukta shall have powers to investigate and prosecute any judge without needing anyone’s permission." unquote

So, will Lokpal and Lokayukta itself become the JUDGE ? No Police required, No Judiciary Bench required.... that is not feasible.

** Lokpal is only to investigate the corruption charges independently no prosecuting powers are with Lokpal.*

*Then who prosecutes the culprits... ? If a Judge is corrupt who punishes him.* 

4. Life imprisonment cannot be given to a  2nd degree offence. Even sometimes it is not given for a 3rd degree offence. 

** Corruption amounts to human rights violation and is root cause of most social evils*


5. What about the Human Rights of the person committed the offence of corruption. Does human rights allow Life Imprisonment.

** Yes ,there is no mention of breach of human rights in UN Charter for human rights for reasonable Life Imprisonment.Culprits needs punishment to keep society clean.*

*I am not talking about UN Charter. JanLokpal bill is not for UN. That is a separate issue. Foreign nationals are also not included in the JanLokpal bill. So, forget about UN Charter.  

We have our own Human Rights Charter in India. 

You cannot put everyone for Life Imprisonment. Life Imprisonment is an alternative to Death Penalty. 

If you think Corruption equal to Death Penalty then Life Imprisonment can be given. But I think and most will agree Corruption does not amount to anything that will equal it for Death Penalty.

Since, Death Penalty is in-human, so Life Imprisonment is given to the culprit instead. I hope you get my point in 3rd degree offence cases only. President of India is made aware of it before execution such penalty by the respective Court of Law. 

So, Even if Lokpal wants to give such a punishment it cannot do so independently. *

6. Life Imprisonment can only be given under the CrPC act. And corruption does not amount to any offence under the CrPC act. 

* *Totally ignorant comment ,sincerely i would like to submit as follows :

1. Cr.PC is first of all is Criminal Procedure Code not any Act .

2. Present Prevention of Corruption Act makes corruption punishable offense.

3. Several provisions of IPC also punish corruption in present system .

4.But there is lack of independent corruption investigation agency .

*

Nope

*1. CrPC is ofcourse Criminal Procedure Code and has various sections under it. To put it in simple laymen terms I wrote ACT

2. Corruption is a punishable offence but not a CRIMINAL offence.

3. So, let me rephrase it : 

" Life Imprisonment can only be given for CRIMINAL offence (chargesheeted under CrPC).  Corruption is not a CRIMINAL offence and so cannot be chargesheeted under CrPC. Police will not record an FIR for corruption under the CrPC sections (section 197, CrPC 1973) But Police can record with Prevention of Corruption Act 1988, Section 19 & 20 and various other sections as per Supreme Court of India.*

7. Govt. of India formed "N I A" to put terrorist behind bars. And it was successful in doing so. ( Still more powers to be given to it. Trial should only be done by Supreme Court. )

**Why Supreme Court only? *

*Because State High Courts gives the judgment in favor of the party. As it happened in States like Assam. Terrorist were caught and brought to India from Bangladesh and other countries and the State Govt. applied for the State High Court to decide the punishment. Unfortunately they were let FREE!!* 

8. Why NGOs are kept out of the ambit of the Lokpal ? Saw kejriwal brushing away from media on this question just now.
* *Lokpal is there to look after corruption of public servants who at any level draw their salary from public exchequer ! 
Lokapal can't be expected to look after corruption of private money .Media Houses corruption ,NGO corruption are not related with public exchequer. *


*So, who starts the corruption in the first place ? Private Companies, NGO, etc so, the problem will still remain.*


----------



## sukesh1090 (Aug 20, 2011)

guys why you are fighting in the name of lokpal bill?it is just the first step against the corruption and we have to support it.after it comes in to play it will get stronger and stronger by clearing its loop holes.lots of advocate and all joined this movement,do you think they don't know anything about this bill?are they bakras to just come and join the movement?if a judge is corrupted man then why should not lokpal become the judge?if judge himself is a criminal then whats left in the court?if we wait thinking that we will make more stronger act,then we are nothing but wasting time.today lot of young people go to abroad in search of jobs,lot of well educated people are jobless,a lot of them do bad works and all,you know why?because of this corruption.which we indians think as our birth right and god gift.Within few years politicians will also corrupt the god.then i don't know who will stop them???


----------



## Tech&ME (Aug 20, 2011)

*@ Sukesh1090*

No one is fighting here. We all are good friends and having healthy discussion on the matter of the proposed bill by both the government and Anna team.

As today Mr. PM said, they will take open public opinion on the matter, so we are just giving our honest opinion.

I am not against Lokpal or even not against the proposed Jan Lokpal but there are too many flaws in it.

Even PM pointed this out.


----------



## Skud (Aug 20, 2011)

sukesh1090 said:


> guys why you are fighting in the name of lokpal bill?it is just the first step against the corruption and we have to support it.after it comes in to play it will get stronger and stronger by clearing its loop holes.lots of advocate and all joined this movement,do you think they don't know anything about this bill?are they bakras to just come and join the movement?if a judge is corrupted man then why should not lokpal become the judge?if judge himself is a criminal then whats left in the court?if we wait thinking that we will make more stronger act,then we are nothing but wasting time.today lot of young people go to abroad in search of jobs,lot of well educated people are jobless,a lot of them do bad works and all,you know why?*because of this corruption.which we indians think as our birth right and god gift.*Within few years politicians will also corrupt the god.then i don't know who will stop them???




That's exactly the problem, all Indians are corrupt and Lokpal bill is taking care of govt. officials and politicians only. And that too just officials in Group 'A' and above (officers/managers in other term). So basically a separate Act will be created to tackle a minority of the 110-120 crore corrupt people. Fact is as long as you are just as eager to offer bribe as the person demanding a bribe, nothing can be done.


And corrupting God? God has given birth to majority of the corruptions of this country. Look at the number of cases of caste related murders, kidnapping, riots and other crimes. All in the name of God. No Lokpal is going to eradicate this. Neither any developments.


----------



## sukesh1090 (Aug 21, 2011)

thats what i am telling brother lokpal is just a small step against the problems of our country.none of the common person will like to give bribes.why he want to?these officials to get money don't complete the work in time then the common person have to give the money,what other option does he have other than that?why govt is not showing interest in bringing the black money back from swiss bank?because their leader the great lady herself having lots of money deposited in their.we have chosen a person to lead our country who never thought of our country,who never belonged to our country.then how can we expect our country to get going?if there are flaws in that bill,then tell me which of the other acts we are following today don't have flaws?our constitution itself full of flaws.
 about the fights in the name of cast,these fights are started and encouraged by these politicians only.


----------



## spironox (Aug 21, 2011)

hmm nice ...healthy debate ..go on


----------



## Skud (Aug 21, 2011)

sukesh1090 said:


> thats what i am telling brother lokpal is just a small step against the problems of our country.none of the common person will like to give bribes.why he want to?these officials to get money don't complete the work in time then the common person have to give the money,what other option does he have other than that?why govt is not showing interest in bringing the black money back from swiss bank?because their leader the great lady herself having lots of money deposited in their.we have chosen a person to lead our country who never thought of our country,who never belonged to our country.then how can we expect our country to get going?if there are flaws in that bill,then tell me which of the other acts we are following today don't have flaws?our constitution itself full of flaws.
> about the fights in the name of cast,these fights are started and encouraged by these politicians only.




Problem is you are still just too much rooted in the "politicians are the only evil" mindset. Why a politician is promoting corruption, casteism etc. in the first place? *Because we people want it.* And he will do anything what people wants. Because that's the only way he can have a secure *job *(let politicians be professionals and full-time, no harm, ruling a country should not be a charity). Because he knows very well people will never stop casteism etc., he supports it. Gandhi can talk against caste system, he is not going to contest in elections. Nehru can't do it like that. Today Govt. is talking about Lokpal bill because he can see a large no. of people actually supporting it. Similarly when Gujjars block roads, rails for SC status and all, Govt. sort of gives in because of the same thing, support of people. It doesn't really matter whether the demand is logical or not. Customer is the king sort of thing. 

Say, a very common incident, violation of traffic rules. If the traffic police really do his duty, and there's no external and internal pressure on that guy, neither our parents are rooted in a mindset "my ladla is an angel" - more than half of us would end in the jail. That never happens. In essence, again, it's we, who are promoting corruption, Govt. and its officials are just a part of this society, not above it.

Let Govt. make Lokpal bill applicable to all organizations, public and private. Similarly, RTI Act should be extended to private bodies too. We are giving so much sops to private bodies in every year's budget, which in essence is also public money, they should also be held accountable similarly.


----------



## sukesh1090 (Aug 21, 2011)

^^yes i completely agree with you that politicians do those things because of us only but the people who are the reason for him to do that will be very less.like if you take gujjars,politician was able to win the hearts of gujjars by keeping the reservation but he has lost the support of higher class people who were against him.if he would have canceled the reservation,what he would have lost,a 20000 votes of gujjars?these 20000 votes he will even lose if he support them bcoz the people against this reservation won't support him.but cancelling the reservation will make a higher class person to gain his job or whatever he deserved which he won't get because of reservation.reservation was made to bring the classes in equality but today those higher classes are completely ruined because of this reservation.a student who scored 90% won't get a seat but a student with a 60% will get because he had reservation.think how that student have felt bcoz he didn't got the seat even though he has the merit.that 60% student tomorrow will get a good job because of reservation and do corruption do you know why?because he doesn't know the value of hard work,from birth he experienced things which he got it without any effort which he will continue in his job.today in india everyone has the reservation except the brahmins.everyone make strikes saying that they want reservation.thats why guys i should not tell but actually i hate india.
i know these things can never be changed.these faults were done by the people who made our constitution,act and all in the beginning days who never thought about the future.they never thought that what they were making that day can't never be changed even in future.
i don't agree that nehru couldn't have done that.he could have if he wished those were the starting days of our independent india and people were united,that time he could have removed the caste system but he never tried.but he was the starting point of our today's politicians.


----------



## eagle_y2j (Aug 21, 2011)

Tech&ME said:


> Your points re-answered below in *GREEN*



My opinion in *BLUE*
1. *Ok, but since the JanLokpal Bill says Lokpal will carry out its own investigation, so in that case where does the Anti - Corruption Division of CBI go.*

*See Janlok pal Bill says that CBI Anti - Corruption Division which at present is under center government is being used as political tool by the ruling parties. In order to get rid of this political influence  CBI Anti - Corruption Division should come under ambit of Lokpal which will be an independent agency. *

2. *I said if JanLokpal bill talks about "NO PERMISSION required" to investigate, then separate agency should be created instead of merging CBIs Anti-Corruption Division into Lokpal because Lokpal itself cannot do all the investigation by itself, that will become a very BIG TASK for it, seeing the length of this Country. Also Lokhayukta in states will not really help since they too will need a separate investigating agency to look at every case (case by case) *

*I think you are interpreting Lokpal as a single office to be situated at New Delhi but in fact it will be like a police station in every district of India. Administrative division will take place like CIC and Election Commissioner so no issue of very BIG TASK*


3.*Then who prosecutes the culprits... ? If a Judge is corrupt who punishes him.* 

*Different bench /jury will Adjudicate the culprit judge based on investigation of Lokpal.*
4. Life imprisonment cannot be given to a  2nd degree offence. Even sometimes it is not given for a 3rd degree offence. 

** Corruption amounts to human rights violation and is root cause of most social evils*


5.*I am not talking about UN Charter. JanLokpal bill is not for UN. That is a separate issue. Foreign nationals are also not included in the JanLokpal bill. So, forget about UN Charter.  

We have our own Human Rights Charter in India. 

You cannot put everyone for Life Imprisonment. Life Imprisonment is an alternative to Death Penalty. 

If you think Corruption equal to Death Penalty then Life Imprisonment can be given. But I think and most will agree Corruption does not amount to anything that will equal it for Death Penalty.

Since, Death Penalty is in-human, so Life Imprisonment is given to the culprit instead. I hope you get my point in 3rd degree offence cases only. President of India is made aware of it before execution such penalty by the respective Court of Law. 

So, Even if Lokpal wants to give such a punishment it cannot do so independently. *


*UN doesn't mean that it is for foreign nationals only.

I would like to explain this to you with following points :

(i) There are two type of laws that are applicable over people and countries i.e. 

a. Municipal Laws of the Country. 
b. International Laws.

(ii)UN charter of Human Rights is applicable to all the countries who are the part of it and India is also an signatory of UN Charter of Human Rights .Human Rights are above citizenship so no question of foreign nationals etc.

(iii)Life Imprisonment proposed under Lokpal is not for each corruption case and it will be courts discretion like all such crimes when it comes what punishment should be awarded as per fact of case.

(iv) I am having  no information about Death Penalty or Life Imprisonment defined as anti-human rights please enlighten me over this.

(v)As per my knowledge of Constitution and Criminal Law there is no provision as you have stated where president  is made aware of death penalty before execution   by the respective Court of Law. 

 Only the person who has been given final punishment by the Supreme Court of India is entitled to make a mercy plea "if he desires to do so".Where president if satisfied can give pardon to such person .

*


6. Nope

*1. CrPC is ofcourse Criminal Procedure Code and has various sections under it. To put it in simple laymen terms I wrote ACT

2. Corruption is a punishable offence but not a CRIMINAL offence.

3. So, let me rephrase it : 

" Life Imprisonment can only be given for CRIMINAL offence (chargesheeted under CrPC).  Corruption is not a CRIMINAL offence and so cannot be chargesheeted under CrPC. Police will not record an FIR for corruption under the CrPC sections (section 197, CrPC 1973) But Police can record with Prevention of Corruption Act 1988, Section 19 & 20 and various other sections as per Supreme Court of India.*

*Again some facts need to be get corrected here :

(i)Your comment is not accordance with The Prevention of Corruption Act ,1988 which deals with corruption ,prosecution and penalties etc. Read Section 22 of same act to see how Cr.Pc applies for corruption.

(ii) Can you explain what is punishable offence but not a CRIMINAL offence.

As there are only two types of wrongs in law i.e. 
(a) Civil Wrongs.
(b) Criminal Wrongs.
*

7.*Because State High Courts gives the judgment in favor of the party. As it happened in States like Assam. Terrorist were caught and brought to India from Bangladesh and other countries and the State Govt. applied for the State High Court to decide the punishment. Unfortunately they were let FREE!!* 

*This statement of yours can result in contempt of Court and can create legal troubles for Think Digit and you .Please show courtesy towards courts because false imputation like this amounts to contempt.*


8.*So, who starts the corruption in the first place ? Private Companies, NGO, etc so, the problem will still remain.*[/QUOTE]

*Lokpal is for money from public exchequer and for private corruption certainly we need some other laws but Lokpal has no scope and jurisdiction .*



			
				Skud said:
			
		

> Not exactly correct. Lots of NGOs receive Govt. funds (ie public money) from various sources particularly from NABARD both in form of grant and loan. They must come under the ambit of Lokpal by the same logic of public exchequer.



Yes, I have clearly stated that Lokpal is for any one who draw money from public exchequer so such NGO's will be covered .


----------



## Skud (Aug 21, 2011)

eagle_y2j said:


> Yes, I have clearly stated that Lokpal is for any one who draw money from public exchequer so such NGO's will be covered .




But Team Anna doesn't want them to be included. And what about business houses? They receive sops every year in annual budget to keep our economy running and generate jobs. Basically, Govt. is making cut in public exchequer to accommodate the demands of them, in a trust that they would generate jobs and income which Govt. can't on its own for the good of people. And all they are doing is grabbing lands of poor farmers and protecting their agreement/MoU with Govt. in the name of secrecy from competition. Don't you think both RTI and Lokpal should be applicable to them also?


----------



## Tech&ME (Aug 21, 2011)

^^

Now this has gone way to far my friend. @*eagle_y2j*

1. I think you are a better lawyer then me. I lost every case I fought for .... he he he 

2. Don't pull thinkdigit in this discussion. Giving honest opinion is not a crime. You go to Assam and see the condition. You don't clearly know the ground reality. A very bad politics played by the Congress Govt. of Assam. I don't want to elaborate on this due to some reasons.

3. Do you know the facts yourself ? Do you know the difference between Murder and Theft ?

4. Can you put a crime of Murder = to a crime of Corruption ?

5. What ever I said I stand by it. I can quote you the real case of corruption dealt with the respective court and their Judgments.

6. I still do not agree with the Jan Lokpal Bill. It is meant to give safe heaven to the NGOs , like Kiran has. (I respect Kiran, and her work)

7. It sounds like you are one of the members of the Team Anna ( 5 representatives ya )



eagle_y2j said:


> My opinion in *BLUE* Re- Answered VIOLET




*Different bench /jury will Adjudicate the culprit judge based on investigation of Lokpal.*

*This was differed by Anna himself. He was explaining to public that if say one Judge is a culprit then no other Judge or bench of Judges can / should be allowed to take the case, since they all eat their lunch together and are all the same.

I heard some minister differ on this too, the minister was saying if we make Lokpal the Judge, then what happens to the judiciary system. What happens with the Supreme Court ?* 


*UN doesn't mean that it is for foreign nationals only.

I would like to explain this to you with following points :

(i) There are two type of laws that are applicable over people and countries i.e. 

a. Municipal Laws of the Country. 
b. International Laws.

(ii)UN charter of Human Rights is applicable to all the countries who are the part of it and India is also an signatory of UN Charter of Human Rights .Human Rights are above citizenship so no question of foreign nationals etc.

(iii)Life Imprisonment proposed under Lokpal is not for each corruption case and it will be courts discretion like all such crimes when it comes what punishment should be awarded as per fact of case.

(iv) I am having  no information about Death Penalty or Life Imprisonment defined as anti-human rights please enlighten me over this.

(v)As per my knowledge of Constitution and Criminal Law there is no provision as you have stated where president  is made aware of death penalty before execution   by the respective Court of Law. 

 Only the person who has been given final punishment by the Supreme Court of India is entitled to make a mercy plea "if he desires to do so".Where president if satisfied can give pardon to such person .

*

*I think you are mixing things up:

Why you talk about UN ?

Ok take for example, you as a citizen of India, did not do any crime, but Indian Police comes and arrests you.  Who do you go to fight for your human rights ?

1. UN ???   

Regarding Death Penalty :  So, you think killing someone is not in-human ? nice to know that. Even judiciary does not and should not kill anyone with out proper consultation. Do you understand this.  It does come under Human Rights, if a Judge pronounces someone for a Death Penalty, the Human Rights is the only source that allows him to apeal to the President of India for mercy.*


*Again some facts need to be get corrected here :

(i)Your comment is not accordance with The Prevention of Corruption Act ,1988 which deals with corruption ,prosecution and penalties etc. Read Section 22 of same act to see how Cr.Pc applies for corruption.

(ii) Can you explain what is punishable offence but not a CRIMINAL offence.

As there are only two types of wrongs in law i.e. 
(a) Civil Wrongs.
(b) Criminal Wrongs.
*

*Accordance with .....1988 Prevention of Corruption Act  ?

Who said I commented in accordance with any LAW for that matter ?

1. I only said Police cannot prepare a FIR (Second FIR as it is known) and put Cr.PC sections in it. 

2. Cr PC does applies to Corruption, but court only can decide if such sections can be applied or not on a case to case basis.*

Quote 



> (ii) Can you explain what is punishable offence but not a CRIMINAL offence.
> 
> As there are only two types of wrongs in law i.e.
> (a) Civil Wrongs.
> (b) Criminal Wrongs.



*
Please explain to me :

What is Civil Wrongs ?

What is Criminal Wrongs ?*


*This statement of yours can result in contempt of Court and can create legal troubles for Think Digit and you .Please show courtesy towards courts because false imputation like this amounts to contempt.*

*Contempt of Court ??? he he  

Did I said that statement in a Court Room ????  

Do you know the meaning of Contempt of Court ???

OK file a case against me in the court quoting this forum as a reference. Go do it. I am ready for it.

So, where is my freedom of speech ?*

*Lokpal is for money from public exchequer and for private corruption certainly we need some other laws but Lokpal has no scope and jurisdiction .*



Yes, I have clearly stated that Lokpal is for any one who draw money from public exchequer so such NGO's will be covered .[/QUOTE]

*So, the role of the Lokpal in itself is not correct then, even if govt. officials are booked for corruption, the person who is indirectly involved in giving the corruption money escapes for the ambit of the Lokpal itself. The aam aadami who gives the corruption money do not have to bow his head in front of the Lokpal. So, the corruption will still continue. *


----------



## Skud (Aug 21, 2011)

Tech&ME said:


> *So, the role of the Lokpal in itself is not correct then, even if govt. officials are booked for corruption, the person who is indirectly involved in giving the corruption money escapes for the ambit of the Lokpal itself. The aam aadami who gives the corruption money do not have to bow his head in front of the Lokpal. So, the corruption will still continue. *




This. And they are not indirectly involved, more often than not, they are the ones who initiate and plan corruption.


----------



## eagle_y2j (Aug 21, 2011)

Tech&ME said:


> ^^
> 
> Now this has gone way to far my friend. @*eagle_y2j*


1. I think you are a better lawyer then me. I lost every case I fought for .... he he he 

I am not saying anything to be decided for better or worst .

2. Don't pull thinkdigit in this discussion. Giving honest opinion is not a crime. You go to Assam and see the condition. You don't clearly know the ground reality. A very bad politics played by the Congress Govt. of Assam. I don't want to elaborate on this due to some reasons.
We are free to say things about government but courts are having privileges and any unfounded charge over judiciary or any court amounts to contempt.I am not dragging any party but i am telling the truth that we can't make charges over any court .

3. Do you know the facts yourself ? Do you know the difference between Murder and Theft ?
Both are crimes ?? .

4. Can you put a crime of Murder = to a crime of Corruption ?
Have i said that ?

Crime are of two types 
(i)Cognizable Crimes
(ii)Non Cognizable Crimes 

5. What ever I said I stand by it. I can quote you the real case of corruption dealt with the respective court and their Judgments.
I feel if you have concrete proof you are free to do so.

6. I still do not agree with the Jan Lokpal Bill. It is meant to give safe heaven to the NGOs , like Kiran has. (I respect Kiran, and her work)
Goverment Funded NGO's should come under ambit of lokpal acc to me.

7. It sounds like you are one of the members of the Team Anna ( 5 representatives ya )

No comments 



*This was differed by Anna himself. He was explaining to public that if say one Judge is a culprit then no other Judge or bench of Judges can / should be allowed to take the case, since they all eat their lunch together and are all the same.

I heard some minister differ on this too, the minister was saying if we make Lokpal the Judge, then what happens to the judiciary system. What happens with the Supreme Court ?* 
Judge is above prejudices and he is there to interpret laws in light of evidences. Lunch together statement was the answer to the question of Judicial Accountability bill where govt. proposes that for inquiry of Judge the permission would be taken by judges of same court.




*I think you are mixing things up:

Why you talk about UN ?

Ok take for example, you as a citizen of India, did not do any crime, but Indian Police comes and arrests you.  Who do you go to fight for your human rights ?

1. UN ???   

Regarding Death Penalty :  So, you think killing someone is not in-human ? nice to know that. Even judiciary does not and should not kill anyone with out proper consultation. Do you understand this.  It does come under Human Rights, if a Judge pronounces someone for a Death Penalty, the Human Rights is the only source that allows him to apeal to the President of India for mercy.*

Sorry to say but you are posting self made facts .

(i)For Human Rights one can approach *Human Rights Commission of India and Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights .*

(ii)Yes death penalty is not inhuman and it is generally awarded in rare of rarest cases . Nowhere there is mention of human rights and mercy plea if any please quote .


*Accordance with .....1988 Prevention of Corruption Act  ?

Who said I commented in accordance with any LAW for that matter ?

1. I only said Police cannot prepare a FIR (Second FIR as it is known) and put Cr.PC sections in it. 

2. Cr PC does applies to Corruption, but court only can decide if such sections can be applied or not on a case to case basis.*

So whats the use of commenting it  is not in accordance of law???

Quote source for these comments .



*
Please explain to me :

What is Civil Wrongs ?

What is Criminal Wrongs ?*


Click over following links to pursue facts :
*Civil Wrongs* 
*Criminal Wrongs* 



*Contempt of Court ??? he he  

Did I said that statement in a Court Room ????  

Do you know the meaning of Contempt of Court ???

OK file a case against me in the court quoting this forum as a reference. Go do it. I am ready for it.

So, where is my freedom of speech ?*

Freedom of speech is not for imputing any court of law and please  get your facts right dude as contempt takes place in two modes :
(a) Not following directions of court.
(b) Making false charges against court and judges publicly.

Here is provision of law for your perusal :

Under *Section 2(c) of the Contempt of Courts Act of 1971*, criminal contempt has been defined as the publication (whether by words, spoken or written, or by signs, or by visible representation, or otherwise) of any matter or the doing of any other act whatsoever which:
(i) *Scandalises or tends to scandalise, or lowers or tends to lower the authority of, any court, or*
(ii) Prejudices, or interferes or tends to interfere with the due course of any judicial proceeding, or
(iii) Interferes or tends to interfere with, or obstructs or tends to obstruct, the administration of justice in any other manner.
(a) 'High Court' means the high court for a state or a union territory and includes the court of the judicial commissioner in any union territory.



*So, the role of the Lokpal in itself is not correct then, even if govt. officials are booked for corruption, the person who is indirectly involved in giving the corruption money escapes for the ambit of the Lokpal itself. The aam aadami who gives the corruption money do not have to bow his head in front of the Lokpal. So, the corruption will still continue. *
Giving bribe is punishable offence and it will under lokpal too.


----------



## Tech&ME (Aug 21, 2011)

^^

Thanks dude.

1. I know what is contempt of court. You need not explain that to me.

2. I have not challenged that the Court was wrong in giving the judgment.

3. I think you do not know the gravity of situation prevailing in Assam right now. I have my relatives there and this mostly is a public opinion with some sections of the people of Assam.

4. I have not scandalied the image of any court. Court can give judgment in favor or against a party. What is so different about it. If I say that the court has given its judgment in my favor in a particular case or cases, does that amount to contempt of court ?

Similarly, I said the respective court gave a judgment in favor of the party ( the terrorist ), so what is wrong in it ?

5. I know very well the provisions of the "Contempt of Court" Act.

Regarding Human Rights:

1. Where will you prefer to go first, to your local authority or to a foreign authority to fight for your rights. ( being a citizen of India , and residing in the same country).

2. Give me the address of the UN Human Rights Office in India. 

3. I never said one cannot go to the Indian Human Rights Office or elsewhere, they can go, if office is available.

4. For every issue you do not go to the UN Human Rights atleast, what for the India Human Rights commission is there for ? I think you need to put your facts correct here.


----------



## Skud (Aug 21, 2011)

Well guys, stop fighting please. We are far off our topic.


----------



## Tech&ME (Aug 21, 2011)

Skud said:


> Well guys, stop fighting please. We are far off our topic.



I know this skud.

But I am bound to answer him. He has mixed everything up.

1. UN Human Rights ??   ( that's a mission to assist Indian Government to understand and protect the human rights of every people in this world and foreigners traveling in India and if any foreign national gets into trouble and is put in Jail, then the UN Human Rights Commissions job is to ensure they are not tortured or ill treated in the Jail. This is the basic job of UN Human Rights in India. )

2. We have the National Human Rights Commission in India to look at local cases of Human Rights Violation.


----------



## rsk11584 (Aug 21, 2011)

i say all those corrupt people be shot and public be given authority to shoot the traffic police or RTO, or civil supplies officer who indulge in corruption, then only the corrupt will fear


----------



## Tech&ME (Aug 21, 2011)

^^

Ha Ha  

So, much frustration from this corruption thing !!

Really Corruption has eaten this Country up.

We are corrupt, all the people of India is corrupt. We are the part of the system ourselves.

We are forced to bride so we automatically become the part of the system.


----------



## Skud (Aug 21, 2011)

What about the businessmen, vegetable sellers, taxi drivers and all? 

Moreover, that will mean we have to shoot all the people of our country. But that's a good solution. _Na rahega bans, na bajegi bansoori._


----------



## Tech&ME (Aug 21, 2011)

^^


----------



## Extreme Gamer (Aug 21, 2011)

It will also be a good way to reduce population 

We people are to blame. Why do we support BJP, Congress etc candidates when they are all corrupt?

Nobody should vote for a candidate he thinks is corrupt irrespective of party winning chances or not.

If we have non- corrupt opposition, people will take their side.

The poor illiterates are given favours by govt so they are blind to curruption ar turn their backs to it and close their ears singing lalalala


----------



## eagle_y2j (Aug 21, 2011)

Tech&ME said:


> I know this skud.
> 
> But I am bound to answer him. He has mixed everything up.
> 
> ...


May be Supreme Court of India and eagle_y2j has done this mistake 

In the case of People's Union for *Civil Liberties v. Union of India, (1997) 1 SCC 301 *the Supreme Court referred to *Article 17 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, 1966 and Article 12 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 1948, so as to derive from Article 21 a right to privacy in India.* The court observed In this connection:

"International law today is not confined to regulating the relations between the States. Scope continues to extend. Today matters of social concern, such as health, education and economics apart from human rights fall within the ambit of International law is more than ever aimed at individuals. It is almost an accepted propositions of law that the *Rules of customary international law which are not contrary to the municipal law shall be deemed to be incorporated in the domestic law."*


----------



## sukesh1090 (Aug 21, 2011)

ok guys there is no solution for the problems we are facing today.India was corrupt,is corrupt and will be corrupt.corruption is our birth right,no one can take that from us.corruption flows in every blood of a true Indian.if you don't support corruption then you are a non patriot.
 this is what is there in every cell of the brain of our people then tell me which surgery can replace all cells?


----------



## ico (Aug 22, 2011)

The Lokpal Bill won't solve the problems. Just adds another layer of complexity. Next we are going to have another committee to keep an eye on Lokpal. Then one more committee to keep an eye on the previous committee and so on.

I also very well know that Anna's Lokpal Bill will NOT pass if it is presented straightforwardly in the Parliament. Humaare neta waise hi chor hai. Chahe Bhajpa who ya Kaangress.

The govt. were morons for getting Anna arrested - should have just let him RIP. Now he has a n00b 'cool' '*******' yindan fan following on Twatter and Phacebook. 95% of them don't know what Lokpal Bill is about. Just shouting randomly. Both the govt. and Anna needs to streamline the Bill. Both of them are NOT going to get what they want. That's for sure. A compromise needs to be made.

ohh btw, I saw 4 Lokpal Bill supporters sitting on a single Splendor without helmets. Traffic policeman caught them and they were like..."what u are doing is wrong..!" yeah, morons.

PS: I don't really think the Lokpal members would be transparently selected as it is claimed to be. Need more insight on this. Lokpal seems like too much of power in random hands just like our govt.

Guess what, these problems wouldn't have arised if Yindans actually knew how to make their vote count and themselves had a political ideology + some brain. Voted for Kaangress and Nehru ********* until he died and even later. Now if some new guy comes and starts a new party promising a lot, I don't think any of you would go out and vote for his party. Most probably your only options are Bhajpa + allies and Kaaangress + allies. Instead of wanting a good MP, ****** Yindans vote for the party.

Second, corruption starts from home and one itself. Someone peeing on road is also an example of corruption. Spitting 'peek' in subway crossings is also an example of corruption. The language in my post above is also an example of corruption. News channels spamming sh!t is also an example of corruption. Arnab Goswami shouting like a whore is also an example of corruption.

My only wish to Anna and the govt. is, stop behaving like stubborn ******. Both of you are not going to get what you want. Instead sit and talk. (yea, I've read papers since Anna's first fast - but those are tainted views/news)

Lastly, all the ****** people going to the Ramlila Maidan without knowing what Lokpal is about, should be shot dead. India is better without such idiots.

I'm out of this thread now.


----------



## Skud (Aug 22, 2011)

ico said:


> *ohh btw, I saw 4 Lokpal Bill supporters sitting on a single Splendor without helmets. Traffic policeman caught them and they were like..."what u are doing is wrong..!" yeah, morons.*




This is only expected. Power corrupts. They just want to grab power bypassing the parliamentary democracy.


----------



## eagle_y2j (Aug 22, 2011)

@ ico 
ok there are many who are not clear about provisions of Janlokpal but i strongly protest against "****** people" comment.


----------



## ico (Aug 22, 2011)

eagle_y2j said:


> @ ico
> ok there are many who are not clear about provisions of Janlokpal but i strongly protest against "****** people" comment.


I've been there. 95% know absolutely nothing.

Same is true for armchair activists.


----------



## gagan007 (Aug 22, 2011)

he is just as frustrated as any other Indian. just overlook that. and because he is very angry, he fails to get clear picture. young blood 


@ico: maybe people don't know what are they fighting for, but I am sure they know what are they fighting against. Isn't that good enough?


----------



## Krow (Aug 22, 2011)

Most people know nothing about Lokpal that is true. Half of them think Lokpal will be some kind of messiah/God who will eradicate corruption, inflation and reduce food price, kill all corrupt billionaires, feed their kids and give them a huge pay hike.


----------



## Tech&ME (Aug 22, 2011)

@ *ico*

Strong words..... indeed. But that is true.

I think yesterday in the "Aap ki Adalat" show the fake judge said the same thing what ico is trying to say.

The fake judge said, people should first understand the JanLok Pal bill clauses very clearly before jumping to support Anna.

It is sadly true that 95% of the people going to Ramlila Maidan does not know the actual contents of the JanLok Pal bill.

And so, those people going there with out heads are true ******.


----------



## Krow (Aug 22, 2011)

No one knows what they are fighting against. It is just collective frustration gathered over the years pouring out on the streets. These people were out because they had some thing to do on a Sunday for a change.


----------



## Skud (Aug 22, 2011)

Krow said:


> No one knows what they are fighting against. It is just collective frustration gathered over the years pouring out on the streets. These people were out because they had some thing to do on a Sunday for a change.




This. And it's just another hype. Guess after World Cup and IPL and the way current series with England is going on, and no elections, we have little to talk, shout and do. I mean how are we gonna spend so much of our leisure time?


----------



## desiibond (Aug 22, 2011)

Thread getting posts filled with foul language. locked!


----------

