# Hard disk life cycle issues of Laptops running Linux



## j_h (Dec 4, 2008)

Hi guys,
I found this. My Toshiba Hard Disk was also infected so I removed linux from my laptop.
*bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/acpi-support/+bug/59695
*ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=591503
*ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Known_issues#Drives_which_perform_frequent_head_unloads_under_Linux
Please read that before doing anything in linux. 
My desktop is safe so I have Arch linux in only my desktop. 
What are your comments on this issue. This bug has been there for so long.


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## Hitboxx (Dec 4, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

It is a firmware bug of the manufacturers who assign aggressive load cycles on the laptops and affects only certain laptops, non-existent on desktops.

Solution: 





> sudo hdparm -B 254 /dev/sda


If not 254, 255 should work.

*use at your own risk OR contact the manufacturer for a firmware update.


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## j_h (Dec 4, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

With that code, the head will never park. It works but not a very good solution but its the best available.


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## Hitboxx (Dec 4, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

A note:
Fedora people here need not worry, it doesn't address the cycles as others Linuses do 

Personally I don't think it is as grave as it is made to look, a hard disk will generally pull through its 3/4 year life cycle. It is the same as regular shutdowns of computers will reduce the life of them in some ways.


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## siddharthmakwana (Dec 4, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

i have heard that linux produces bad sector on hard drive.... is it true....?


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## abhinandh (Dec 4, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*



siddharthmakwana said:


> i have heard that linux produces bad sector on hard drive.... is it true....?



FALSE. Desktop drives are not affected at all (only some laptop drives are) and my hard disk is running linux for the past 5 years


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## Ron (Dec 4, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

wht? guys ur scarin me.....I thought linux is trust worthy.........
bt now it seems...........


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## j_h (Dec 4, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*



Ron said:


> wht? guys ur scarin me.....I thought linux is trust worthy.........
> bt now it seems...........


Basically its not the fault of linux. Its due to the crazy hard drive manufacturers that design hard drives to suit the need of windows. 
Here is the explanation of what is happening. 
Harddisk's head loads and unloads  a number of times. If the hard disk is idle, then it parks. What happens in windows is that the idle time is very less. So, the harddisk manufacturers set the harddisk according to the disk access pattern of windows. What happens in Linux and also in Mac is that the disk access pattern is different. The disk is accessed much less often. So, The hard drive head Loads/unloads much more than it does in windows. Tipically a hard disk has a load/unload cycle life expectancy of around 60000(not sure if its 60K or 600K). This gives the life at around 4years of 12hr use daily. 
Now since, in linux (and also mac) the load/unload cycle is very high, the life expectancy reduces to around 8 months. (read it in a real life case cenario in a blog. The guy had to replace 3 hard drives).

Whose Fault is it?
It is not linux's fault. Less disk access is better. The manufacturers are the ones that need to be blamed here. They are the ones who set the default setting to suit windows. 

Whats the fix ?
As posted by hitboxx, the code does not let the head park and is up all the time. This works but you will have to look at  the temperature of your hard drives more closely. The thread in the ubuntu forums has detailed info on the fix (see my first post).

Why am I angry ?
I have been using linux since redhat9. I found out about this bug YESTERDAY!!!. I think things like this should be more publicised. It should be made a sticky everywhere in the linux forums. I f***ed up my thinkpad's hard drive a year ago. KDE started showing some s.m.a.r.t failure errors. I quickly removed kde, installed windows and sold the laptop to a less tech savy guy.
Now, i had been using ubuntu8.04 on my new hp for the past 4 months and yeasterday while randomly checking bugs in launchpad, i found it. This laptop has already got a load cycle of 18K and its been just around 4-5 months i have bought. 

So, I just wanted you guys to know that there is a problem that exists and people are losing hard drives . Now, i have linux only in my desktop. Until some list of blacklisted drives and the drives that have no problem are compiled, i have no choice but to stay away from linux in my lappy. I could use the 255/254 fix but its a dirty one and its USE AT YOUR OWN RISK kind of fix.

So, if any guys here runnig linux on laptops please check my first post of this thread, goto the ubuntu forums link i provided and find out if your harddrive suffers. Ignorance is not Bliss. 



siddharthmakwana said:


> i have heard that linux produces bad sector on hard drive.... is it true....?


No, it does not produce bad sectors or kills all drives. check if yours is infected. 
I have Arch linux installed on my desktop and its doing very well. No worries. Its just that I advise you to check if you are the unlucky one with the faulty hard drive.


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## unni (Dec 4, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

Man, you raised my blood pressure. Can't wait to reach room and check it out. Me too have an HP lappy.


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## Faun (Dec 4, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

lol...here it is reverse. Almost all HDDs on which I install XP, gets bad sooner or later. But ones with Linux are working fine. Sometimes I think there is problem with my mobo, but who knows ?

Few days back Dead Space was working fine but now it stutters :/


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## Ron (Dec 5, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

@j_h thnks


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## Ross (Dec 5, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

Does this bug affects desktop hard disks too???
I am using Ubuntu on Seagate 320 G HDD(ST3320620A), do i really need to worry????


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## j_h (Dec 5, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*



Ross said:


> Does this bug affects desktop hard disks too???
> I am using Ubuntu on Seagate 320 G HDD(ST3320620A), do i really need to worry????


I dont think so. Its seen on laptop harddisks.


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## esumitkumar (Dec 5, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*



j_h said:


> Basically its not the fault of linux. Its due to the crazy hard drive manufacturers that design hard drives to suit the need of windows.
> Here is the explanation of what is happening.
> Harddisk's head loads and unloads  a number of times. If the hard disk is idle, then it parks. What happens in windows is that the idle time is very less. So, the harddisk manufacturers set the harddisk according to the disk access pattern of windows. What happens in Linux and also in Mac is that the disk access pattern is different. The disk is accessed much less often. So, The hard drive head Loads/unloads much more than it does in windows. Tipically a hard disk has a load/unload cycle life expectancy of around 60000(not sure if its 60K or 600K). This gives the life at around 4years of 12hr use daily.
> Now since, in linux (and also mac) the load/unload cycle is very high, the life expectancy reduces to around 8 months. (read it in a real life case cenario in a blog. The guy had to replace 3 hard drives).
> ...



OMG  ..man u gave me heart attack if its true ?

My 2 yr old Acer laptop's HDD died just cuz i was playing formatting and installing various versions of linux every week ????

*Also now I have installed a new HDD 80 GB ,
installed Ubuntu 8.10 fully on it 
Should I run ,remove linux and install XP ???*


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## red_devil (Dec 5, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

^^ how about trying the solution Hitboxx suggested ??

{ but do read THIS PAGE thoroughly before attempting any such thing}


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## NucleusKore (Dec 5, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*



j_h said:


> I have been using linux since redhat9. I found out about this bug YESTERDAY!!!.



Been using since RH 7.0 and came to know of this only today 

Thanks for sharing. I have to be very careful when recommending linux for laptops, maybe first boot with a openSUSE liveCD and probe the hardware

I do hope eeepc does not have problems, just got one today


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## j_h (Dec 5, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*



esumitkumar said:


> OMG  ..man u gave me heart attack if its true ?
> 
> My 2 yr old Acer laptop's HDD died just cuz i was playing formatting and installing various versions of linux every week ????
> 
> ...



You should find out whether your hard drive is under risk. 
Here is how you do it.
*ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=5031046&postcount=2
Best of luck


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## Ross (Dec 5, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*



j_h said:


> I dont think so. Its seen on laptop harddisks.


Ok, 
but the link you mentioned in first post doesnt says anything like that it affects Laptop HDDs only. 

(  Anyways i better remove Linux until there is any fix.)


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## j_h (Dec 5, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*



Ross said:


> Ok,
> but the link you mentioned in first post doesnt says anything like that it affects Laptop HDDs only.
> 
> (  Anyways i better remove Linux until there is any fix.)


This load/unload is done by laptops to save power.  It should not be a problem in desktops. If you want to clear your mind , check this post to find out if yours is infected. *ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=5031046&postcount=2. I also have linux on desktop. Dont worry. Its laptop specific problem.


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## Ross (Dec 5, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*



j_h said:


> This load/unload is done by laptops to save power.  It should not be a problem in desktops. If you want to clear your mind , check this post to find out if yours is infected. *ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=5031046&postcount=2. I also have linux on desktop. Dont worry. Its laptop specific problem.



check out this link *bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/acpi-support/+bug/59695/comments/97 , it says it does affects Desktop HDDs too  .


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## j_h (Dec 6, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

^yes. I read it. I don't know what to say. 
*bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/acpi-support/+bug/59695/comments/28
Check the link more info


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## Hitboxx (Dec 6, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

Quoting the link


> However, keep in mind that due to another bug added to this one, even desktop computers with desktop drives can end with this kind of settings, AND the 20 seconds idle set by *ubuntu's scripts* is WAY too small


It is a Ubuntu issue, not the entire Linux fraternity. This thread has always been a Ubuntu issue (pfft title.!). So people on Ubuntu should question/ask/care more probably. Like I said before, you are making a mountain of a mole (I agree a somewhat placid idea), it is fixed in many distros, and subsequent updates in Ubuntu will fix it too or might have already, I'm not sure. Don't be paranoid, please! And don't FUD, you will make others scared. Probably dig more on it at Ubuntu forums.

For those who can't come to gripes with the situation and are getting paranoid (justifiably), I strongly recommend dropping (Ubuntu)Linux now, lest you come later and then shout all over the forums about it. Prevention is better than cure, so better do it now.

*The reason why I might consider it a non-issue or a lesser grave issue is that the entire topic about it has went down subsequent threads in Ubuntu forums, meaning it is not that hot a topic it is made out to be here, which in itself says the issue is almost sorted. Of course, these are my opinions. YOMV.

Also I would like to add that it would help in your confidence if you can visit the #Ubuntu support channel on IRC, where you will get a direct reply, once and for all, letting you know on the issues.


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## NucleusKore (Dec 6, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*



j_h said:


> You should find out whether your hard drive is under risk.
> Here is how you do it.
> *ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=5031046&postcount=2
> Best of luck



Thanks



Hitboxx said:


> Quoting the link
> 
> It is a Ubuntu issue, not the entire Linux fraternity. This thread has always been a Ubuntu issue (pfft title.!). So people on Ubuntu should question/ask/care more probably. Like I said before, you are making a mountain of a mole (I agree a somewhat placid idea), it is fixed in many distros, and subsequent updates in Ubuntu will fix it too or might have already, I'm not sure. Don't be paranoid, please! And don't FUD, you will make others scared. Probably dig more on it at Ubuntu forums.



Thanks for the clarification

*s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj44/visio159/Unismilies/44large.png


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## esumitkumar (Dec 6, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*



Hitboxx said:


> Quoting the link
> 
> It is a Ubuntu issue, not the entire Linux fraternity. This thread has always been a Ubuntu issue (pfft title.!). So people on Ubuntu should question/ask/care more probably. Like I said before, you are making a mountain of a mole (I agree a somewhat placid idea), it is fixed in many distros, and subsequent updates in Ubuntu will fix it too or might have already, I'm not sure. Don't be paranoid, please! And don't FUD, you will make others scared. Probably dig more on it at Ubuntu forums.
> 
> ...



hmm..so if windows doesnt install on my PC..is this a good situation to try 
Fedora 10  or Mandriva 2009 Spring One (distro hopping excuse )

Fedora 10 or Mandriva dont have these issues right ? for laptops ??


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## j_h (Dec 6, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*



esumitkumar said:


> hmm..so if windows doesnt install on my PC..is this a good situation to try
> Fedora 10  or Mandriva 2009 Spring One (distro hopping excuse )
> 
> Fedora 10 or Mandriva dont have these issues right ? for laptops ??


Opensuse had it. *bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=386555
But now it is marked as solved. so I am waiting for the release of opensuse 11.1 to try. 
Dont know if the bug is in  fedora/mandriva. in any case, its better to check load cycles using smartmontools after installing the distros. 
*smartmontools.sourceforge.net/
Please post your observations after installing fedora/mandriva. I also need a distro for my laptop. I am too afraid to try the hdparm fix . People have noticed the temperature of their harddrives rising after using that fix. Cant wait for dec18. opensuse 11.1 will release that day.


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## Vishal Patil (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

does this affect desktop harddirves too as you specifically mentioned the word laptop.


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## esumitkumar (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

Am I affected by this ??? 

SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED
Please note the following marginal Attributes:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
190 Airflow_Temperature_Cel 0x0022   041   033   045    Old_age   Always   FAILING_NOW 59 (0 11 60 58)

sumit@sumit-laptop:~$ sudo smartctl -a /dev/sda | grep Load_Cycle_Count
193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0032   092   092   000    Old_age   Always       -       17776

SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 10
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate     0x000f   100   253   006    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  3 Spin_Up_Time            0x0003   095   094   000    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  4 Start_Stop_Count        0x0032   100   100   020    Old_age   Always       -       217
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   036    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x000f   065   060   030    Pre-fail  Always       -       3374749
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       331
 10 Spin_Retry_Count        0x0013   100   100   034    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
 12 Power_Cycle_Count       0x0032   100   100   020    Old_age   Always       -       337
187 Reported_Uncorrect      0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
189 High_Fly_Writes         0x003a   076   076   000    Old_age   Always       -       24
190 Airflow_Temperature_Cel 0x0022   041   033   045    Old_age   Always   FAILING_NOW 59 (0 19 60 58)
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       260
193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0032   092   092   000    Old_age   Always       -       17780
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   059   067   000    Old_age   Always       -       59 (0 13 0 0)
195 Hardware_ECC_Recovered  0x001a   090   054   000    Old_age   Always       -       116212686
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0010   100   100   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count    0x003e   200   199   000    Old_age   Always       -       3
200 Multi_Zone_Error_Rate   0x0000   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
202 TA_Increase_Count       0x0032   100   253   000    Old_age   Always       -       0


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## j_h (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*



esumitkumar said:


> Am I affected by this ???
> 
> SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED
> *Please note the following marginal Attributes:
> ...




Power_On_Hours = 331
Load_Cycle_Count = 17780
So that makes it 53.71 Cycles / hr. You can now calculate how long your hard disk will last by taking into consideration the number of hours you use it daily. 

Also, check that airflow temperature. its 59 in your case. 

*A quote from this page: *ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Known_issues#Drives_which_perform_frequent_head_unloads_under_Linux

"Note that modern laptop drives are supposed to unload frequently to save power. Unless the unloading is excessive, disabling powersaving is not a good idea. It seems that most modern drives are rated for 600,000 load/unload cycles which translates to about two years of uptime at 35 unloads per hour. Even when assuming continuous 12 hours of usage everyday, this means the drive will only reach its rated load/unload cycle limit after four years and shouldn't be considered malfunctioning. Please only report cases where the expected uptime is significantly lower than two years.*"

Here is the explanation of the S.M.A.R.T Parameters
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M.A.R.T.


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## thewisecrab (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

Phew. Glad that my desktop is not as vulnerable


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## esumitkumar (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

Thanks ..I have switched to XP now


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## j_h (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*



esumitkumar said:


> Thanks ..I have switched to XP now


What is the status of the temperature and load cycle counts now that u have XP ? 
smartmontools is also available for XP. *sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=64297
Check your load cycle count in the difference of one hour and see what count you get for one hour doing normal work with XP installed.


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## amitabhishek (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

I have a laptop with Ubuntu (second last version)

Am I at risk?
Is having multiple OSs risky?
Is using Live CD increases the chance of infection (damage)?
Is there some kind of protection against this risk?
Are new sub distros equally dangerous?
Will it become an epidemic?


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## esumitkumar (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

@amit..read thread carefully from the start ..u will know ..

@Jh ..i will check from home once I reach (Office sucks  will reach by 9pm or 9:30)

Offtopic : one prob in XP...I have installed winXP sp2..

my 5.1 speakers arent giving that good sound as wid ubuntu VLC player??? 
seems they are playing only 2.1 wid winamp , WMP, VLC etc in XP ?
How to reslove that ? I have updated MB drivers (915 M drivers) from intel site..still no diff


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## MetalheadGautham (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

How do I check my HDD life on my ArchLinux installed in a Seagate 80GB SATA HDD on my desktop ? Its showing poor performance on my computer and several DVDs and CDs got junked half way through writing process due to some access error I guess. Brand new non scratched discs.

Edit: This means anything ?


```
smartctl version 5.38 [i686-pc-linux-gnu] Copyright (C) 2002-8 Bruce Allen
Home page is *smartmontools.sourceforge.net/

=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Model Family:     Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 and 7200.7 Plus family
Device Model:     ST380011A
Serial Number:    5JVR8MAK
Firmware Version: 8.01
User Capacity:    80,026,361,856 bytes
Device is:        In smartctl database [for details use: -P show]
ATA Version is:   6
ATA Standard is:  ATA/ATAPI-6 T13 1410D revision 2
Local Time is:    Mon Dec  8 17:41:16 2008 PST
SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability.
SMART support is: Enabled

=== START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION ===
SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED

General SMART Values:
Offline data collection status:  (0x82)    Offline data collection activity
                    was completed without error.
                    Auto Offline Data Collection: Enabled.
Self-test execution status:      (   0)    The previous self-test routine completed
                    without error or no self-test has ever 
                    been run.
Total time to complete Offline 
data collection:          ( 430) seconds.
Offline data collection
capabilities:              (0x5b) SMART execute Offline immediate.
                    Auto Offline data collection on/off support.
                    Suspend Offline collection upon new
                    command.
                    Offline surface scan supported.
                    Self-test supported.
                    No Conveyance Self-test supported.
                    Selective Self-test supported.
SMART capabilities:            (0x0003)    Saves SMART data before entering
                    power-saving mode.
                    Supports SMART auto save timer.
Error logging capability:        (0x01)    Error logging supported.
                    General Purpose Logging supported.
Short self-test routine 
recommended polling time:      (   1) minutes.
Extended self-test routine
recommended polling time:      (  58) minutes.

SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 10
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate     0x000f   064   059   006    Pre-fail  Always       -       107062439
  3 Spin_Up_Time            0x0003   099   098   000    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  4 Start_Stop_Count        0x0032   100   100   020    Old_age   Always       -       26
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   036    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x000f   085   060   030    Pre-fail  Always       -       362034578
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   093   093   000    Old_age   Always       -       6135
 10 Spin_Retry_Count        0x0013   100   100   097    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
 12 Power_Cycle_Count       0x0032   097   097   020    Old_age   Always       -       3836
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   036   056   000    Old_age   Always       -       36
195 Hardware_ECC_Recovered  0x001a   064   059   000    Old_age   Always       -       107062439
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0010   100   100   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count    0x003e   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
200 Multi_Zone_Error_Rate   0x0000   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
202 TA_Increase_Count       0x0032   100   253   000    Old_age   Always       -       0

SMART Error Log Version: 1
No Errors Logged

SMART Self-test log structure revision number 1
No self-tests have been logged.  [To run self-tests, use: smartctl -t]


SMART Selective self-test log data structure revision number 1
 SPAN  MIN_LBA  MAX_LBA  CURRENT_TEST_STATUS
    1        0        0  Not_testing
    2        0        0  Not_testing
    3        0        0  Not_testing
    4        0        0  Not_testing
    5        0        0  Not_testing
Selective self-test flags (0x0):
  After scanning selected spans, do NOT read-scan remainder of disk.
If Selective self-test is pending on power-up, resume after 0 minute delay.
```

PS: Hitboxx, please stikify this thread. Looks serious and important.


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## darshantandel (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

MetalheadGautham
Whats the output of 
smartctl -a /dev/sda | grep Load_Cycle_Count
on your system?

Anyways this HDD killer bug affects only laptops and that too when they are running on powersaving mode. 
Do 
man hdparm
and see if there is something you can do to boost performance of your harddisk.


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## User Name (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

Well well i was thinking to install ubuntu 8.10 on my lappy by using install inside windows option.

now.........i am confused  
I am complete noob in linux


What should i do?


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## j_h (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*



MetalheadGautham said:


> How do I check my HDD life on my ArchLinux installed in a Seagate 80GB SATA HDD on my desktop ? Its showing poor performance on my computer and several DVDs and CDs got junked half way through writing process due to some access error I guess. Brand new non scratched discs.
> 
> Edit: This means anything ?
> 
> ...


Looks Ok from that SMART data. BTW, the load cycle bug IS NOT present on Desktops.



darshantandel said:


> MetalheadGautham
> Whats the output of
> smartctl -a /dev/sda | grep Load_Cycle_Count
> on your system?
> ...


The output of smartctl -a /dev/sda | grep Load_Cycle_Count on his system would be null as that parameter is not available for Desktop hard disks.


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## unni (Dec 9, 2008)

*Re: VERY IMPORTANT INFO: Hard Disks being Killed in Linux*

My values:





> sudo smartctl -a /dev/sda
> 
> smartctl version 5.38 [i686-pc-linux-gnu] Copyright (C) 2002-8 Bruce Allen
> Home page is *smartmontools.sourceforge.net/
> ...


Power_On_Hours=779
Load_Cycle_Count=6330
So, my cycles per hour = 6330/779=8.1.
I am safe. 



j_h said:


> What is the status of the temperature and load cycle counts now that u have XP ?
> smartmontools is also available for XP. *sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=64297
> Check your load cycle count in the difference of one hour and see what count you get for one hour doing normal work with XP installed.


@esumitkumar
I am anxious to know the results of this.


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## Hitboxx (Dec 9, 2008)

Ok, thread stickied until everyone cleares their doubts about it.

And here is my laptop running Arch (battery on half).


> === START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
> Model Family:     Toshiba 2.5" HDD series (30-60 GB)
> Device Model:     TOSHIBA MK6034GSX
> Serial Number:    Y679T22VT
> ...


59232/1459 = 40.597669637

Hmm, now how do I interpret this..?


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## esumitkumar (Dec 9, 2008)

I installed smarttools in Win XP ..Its showing 
Airflow Temp = Past 50 
Power On Hours = 344
Load_Cycle Count = 18129

So it comes to 18129/344 = 52.7 ????

So less diff than Ubuntu ?? 

What does it mean ? Suppose I run my lappu for 12 hours a day 

so 52.7 *12 = 632.4 

and a HDD survives 600,000 so 600,000/632.4 = 948.76 days ? 

that means roughly 2.6 years ?? Is this calculation correct ??


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## Hitboxx (Dec 9, 2008)

I just had a lengthy discussion about this in the Fedora channel on IRC and everybody is considering it either fixed or a non-issue, which I assume is also true for other distros too. And also it being a two year old issue (going by the date of the first occurrence on launchpad), it is safe to assume it is not a grave one as it is made out to be.

And as has been proven by the above post, it is not only limited to Linux. 

I just recommend all owners of laptops with Linux on it to test it once just to get it out of the system.

No need for a sticky, unstickied.

Also, Ubuntu users should go and ask about it in the Ubuntu channel on IRC and then do a write up here of the resulting discussion. It would benefit us all.


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## unni (Dec 9, 2008)

esumitkumar said:


> I installed smarttools in Win XP ..Its showing
> Airflow Temp = Past 50
> Power On Hours = 344
> Load_Cycle Count = 18129
> ...


When you earlier posted, the values were:
Power_On_Hours = 331
Load_Cycle_Count = 17780
Cycles / hr = 53.71

Now, both power on hours and load cycle count are changed. If you check in Ubuntu again, you should get 52.7.

If you could take these 2 values before and after running the laptop in Windows for 1-2 hours (as j_h said), we should be able to know if it is a Linux only problem or not.

I will also check in Windows to see if there is any difference.

@Hitboxx
Did the Fedora IRC guys confirm whether yours is an issue or not?


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## Hitboxx (Dec 9, 2008)

Yes, I'm absolutely convinced it is not a problem on Fedora. I'm going to replace Arch with Fedora on my laptop later today, not just as a proof but I wanted to do that for sometime now, got the chance today.


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## User Name (Dec 9, 2008)

can i check this by using HDD life software?


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## j_h (Dec 9, 2008)

esumitkumar said:


> I installed smarttools in Win XP ..Its showing
> Airflow Temp = Past 50
> Power On Hours = 344
> Load_Cycle Count = 18129
> ...



*No No No, You are wrong.

This is how to calculate:

 Hours used with XP = 344-331=13
 Load cycle using XP = 18129 - 17780 = 349

So you are getting 26.84 Cycles / HOUR
That is FARRRRR Less than 54* 

So your laptop should last (600000-18129)/26.84 = 21679 hrs = 1806 days = 4.9 yrs at 12 hr /day use. (If you just take load cycle lifetime into consideration).

I hope This is helpful.




Hitboxx said:


> Yes, I'm absolutely convinced it is not a problem on Fedora. I'm going to replace Arch with Fedora on my laptop later today, not just as a proof but I wanted to do that for sometime now, got the chance today.



I would suggest esumitkumar install fedora and post the result. That way we all can have one Linux Distro that we can use with peace of mind.



Hitboxx said:


> And also it being a two year old issue (going by the date of the first occurrence on launchpad), it is safe to assume it is not a grave one as it is made out to be.


This was there in suse 11.0 beta also. So its not exactly 2 yrs old. *bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=386555. Can anyone with experience in reading bug reports tell me what was the fix that novel used to say that this issue is resolved. I think they simply redirected to this page and said it is fixed. They Did write a script however that applies hdparm fix at boottime but no one is talking about the temperature issues you will have after using this fix. I mean your head will not load for the entire 12hrs. Period. So, is that really healthy? My take is that either you will have your hard disk broken in 1yr form the loadcycle bug or if you apply the hdparm fix, you will break it with the rising temperature. What do yo have to say guys ? Please dont mistake me as someone who is advocating to not use linux but I just want everyone to know about this.

Also, this page *ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Known_issues#Drives_which_perform_frequent_head_unloads_under_Linux
does not suggest anywhere that this is a UBUNTU bug. It says that its a kernel issue. 

Also, since esumitkumar is having a load cycle of 53 with Ubuntu and 26 with XP, i think it is still an issue. People who buy digit will install ubuntu provided in the Digit DVD and 8 months later will find out that their hard drive is gone.

@esumitkumar: Your high temperature may be due to blocking of your vents in the laptop ( I dont know if they are called vents or whatever). Use your laptop in flat surface where the air that has to flow out is not obstructed. A nice shiny table would be nice .  Never use laptops on top of blankets  " Kambal Ke Upar".


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## Hitboxx (Dec 9, 2008)

I ran it from the Fedora Live CD 32bit.


> === START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
> Model Family:     Toshiba 2.5" HDD series (30-60 GB)
> Device Model:     TOSHIBA MK6034GSX
> Serial Number:    Y679T22VT
> ...


Similar values like before. 

Personally, I still say it is not a grave issue, if you're still paranoid, you can stop using Linux currently and wait for a fix (if its in kernel like you say). No problem in dropping Linux, use Windows if it is how you feel, and same goes for others.


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## esumitkumar (Dec 9, 2008)

> No No No, You are wrong.
> 
> This is how to calculate:
> 
> Hours used with XP = 344-331=13


 
I am very very confused !! Does hrs used wid XP means I have run XP for 13 hours ? Means one day u run XP for 2 hrs , shut the laptop, next day 10 hrs ..does this count will show 12 hrs ??

How is it storing the value though we have switched off laptop    

and ya I m dloading Fedora ..will install and post the result soon ....

[Office workload has increased dramatically daily 10 am - 10 pm including 2 hrs commute time  ]

PS: abt HDD temp yaar kambal pe nahin rakha ....its on a table ..kya karu..i love desktops more than laptops ..but Banjara life hai IT walo ki so..kabhi Dilli kabhi Pune kabhi US aur kabhi UK..kahan kahan tak desktop leke ghumoge


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## j_h (Dec 9, 2008)

esumitkumar said:


> I am very very confused !! Does hrs used wid XP means I have run XP for 13 hours ? Means one day u run XP for 2 hrs , shut the laptop, next day 10 hrs ..does this count will show 12 hrs ??
> 
> How is it storing the value though we have switched off laptop
> 
> ...



It works like this. 

Power On hours is the amount of time the hard disk is on. This does NOT apply to the time it is switched off.  This calculation is done by SMART and stored in the HARD Disk itself.  I am assuming that the smart data you posted before was obtained when you used Ubuntu . i am assuming that you bought the laptop then installed linux and used it. So, the first 331 power on hours and 17K load cycle was obtained when using ubuntu. 

Now since you switched to xp , you posted a differnt set of values. 
There the increment in power on hours was 13 hrs and load cycle was increased by some value. So, you used your laptop for 13 hrs with XP.  I hope you understand what i am trying to say.

And yes, If you use for 2 hrs one day, then 10 hrs the next day, your power on hours will be 12. This calculation and storing is done by SMART and  the value is stored in the hard disk chip itself.



Hitboxx said:


> I ran it from the Fedora Live CD 32bit.
> Similar values like before.


Yes, 37 cycles in one hour with fedora. (59269 - 59232) / (1460-1459)
*git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/tj/storage-fixup.git;a=blob;f=storage-fixup.conf. This does not list your HD model. congratulations. Have you tried XP to check how many you get in an hour ?


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## esumitkumar (Dec 9, 2008)

^^Thanks..It clearly means from the day I installed this new HDD ..it has been ran for 344 hours ..hmmm ..will have to read more ..


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## vamsi360 (Dec 10, 2008)

ubuntu Intrepid Ibex after such a propogation that it saves battery and reported test seems to still have the problem.

Man,I have 4 linux Distros on my new Inspiron 1525 and I am really scared, If mine is affected I think it should be affected in a worst way as I use Linux for 80% in my usage. 

Anyway thanks, You have made me realize the importance of the Genuine Vista Home Premium OEM bundled with it.


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## esumitkumar (Dec 10, 2008)

I dloaded and burnt Fedora 10 CD but while booting from it ...it displays some error 
error on sda0 or somewhat  ........Can I Install from its iso without burning CD from Win XP ?? Like Virtual CD emulator ? Help needed


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## unni (Dec 10, 2008)

I checked the load cycle count in Ubuntu 8.10 32 bit and Windows Vista 32 bit for a period of 5 minutes. I booted each of the OS and waited for the hard disk activity light to turn off (so that the booting process becomes complete). Then I launched terminal/command prompt, entered the "smartctl -a" command, and noted down the current load cycle count value. Then, I left the OS idle for exactly 5 minutes. The only input I gave during this 5 minutes was moving the mouse just a bit 3 times so that display won't go blank. Laptop was on mains throughout these 5 minutes. 

*In Ubuntu, the load cycle count increased by 8 (from 6375 to 6383), during a 5 minute idle period.
In Vista, the load cycle count increased by 5 (from 6394 to 6399), during a 5 minute idle period.*

The difference of 3 between Ubuntu & Vista is most probably because of AVG and Comodo Firewall, along with some other running processes. I had my internet connected when I tested in Vista, but no internet when I tested in Ubuntu. I will check this again after killing AVG & Comodo, and with no internet.

In my hard disk, the spin down occurs after 14-16 seconds of inactivity, irrespective of the OS. I need to confirm this again. I will post more by today evening or tomorrow morning, when running on battery as well.

From my experience, either this is nothing we should worry about or this is something we should be concerned about regardless of the OS.

@esumitkumar
The reduction in the load cycle counts during the 13 hours you ran on XP could be because of
a. Installation of XP and drivers (assuming you didn't have XP earlier) or service pack 2.
b. You were downloading something (like Fedora) during these 13 hours.
c. I don't want to say.  
Could you tell us what you were doing during these 13 hours with XP, and whether you have indexing, automatic antivirus scan etc. enabled?


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## esumitkumar (Dec 10, 2008)

he he he very funny unni..i wasnt watching po*n or something 
during those 13 hrs XP was installed and as usual I was playing songs on my lappi 

should i download Sabayon 3.5 now ? Can anybody confirm this bug is in Sabayon or not ??? 

*Also NOBODY answered how can i install FEDORA10 thru HDD ? I have got only 696 MB of Fedora 10 ISO :-*


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## Hitboxx (Dec 10, 2008)

@j_h, nope, no Windows on laptop.

@esumitkumar, *docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f10/en_US/sn-installing-from-harddrive.html


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## esumitkumar (Dec 10, 2008)

^^ I read that documentation but cant understand how to proceed. I have Win XP only now . I have created a new unallocated partition of 13 GB for linux out of 74 GB hard disk..I have another 250 GB external hard disk for backup

In my C: drive I have Fedora10i686.iso ..Can anybody tell me now step by step how to proceed ?


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## j_h (Dec 10, 2008)

unni said:


> *In Ubuntu, the load cycle count increased by 8 (from 6375 to 6383), during a 5 minute idle period.
> In Vista, the load cycle count increased by 5 (from 6394 to 6399), during a 5 minute idle period.*




Dear unni,

Thank you for your effort. In my humble opinion,  5 min is a far less time to get to any solid conclusion. I would try it for one hour during normal operating condition. For instance, if you use your laptop to surf the internet, listen to music then why not do that and observe the reading. 

This test is to find out if you have the problem. Since you will be working with your laptop than leaving it idle other times, why not take the test while doing the things you normally do. BTW, when i tried it some days back (before posting this thread) one hour with normal use ,  I got a load cycle of less than 20 on my hp laptop with XP and I was getting 65 with ubuntu with the 'tick' sounds now and then. 

By the way, have a look at *en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M.A.R.T. to see what the parameters actually mean. 

Regards,
J_h

(IS this too formal ? )


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## Plasma_Snake (Dec 13, 2008)

How'd I know if my HDD is in danger or not? I tried the hdparm command and got this as output

```
/dev/sda:
 setting Advanced Power Management level to 0xfe (254)
 HDIO_DRIVE_CMD failed: Input/output error
rudra@rudra-testubuntu:~$ sudo hdparm -B 255 /dev/sda

/dev/sda:
 setting Advanced Power Management level to disabled
 HDIO_DRIVE_CMD failed: Input/output error
```
What is this? What to do?


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## j_h (Dec 13, 2008)

Plasma_Snake said:


> How'd I know if my HDD is in danger or not? I tried the hdparm command and got this as output
> 
> ```
> /dev/sda:
> ...



First find out if your hard drive is at risk. Then only apply the hdparm fix. But read a lot about that fix before applying it.

To find out if you have the problem , download smartmontools and then run smartctl command. 

here is the detailed guide. *ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=5031046&postcount=2


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## vamsi360 (Dec 13, 2008)

@Hitboxx 
can I know if using fedora 10 on my laptop( Inspiron 1525) is a risk?
As you said harddrives die after 2/3 years, i agree with it and I know even Dell ships Ubuntu with my laptop in some countries and what happens to them if they are affected with this issue?
I regularly format my linux partitions and change the distro with a newone given in Digit.I have 3 distros on my laptop and I donot change only fedora.Will this procedure will let my harddisk down fastly?Whats your solution in detail.....please


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## Hitboxx (Dec 13, 2008)

@vamsi360, at the rate at which people are paranoid here, I have no solution, honestly. I don't want to say anything more, it is all up to you. If I were an Ubuntu lover and say my laptop would be listed there, I would have still used it whatever the cause, because I would be sure eventually it will be alright, it is a bug and in the FOSS world, nothing stays a bug, atleast for not too long, but again that is me.

Though I will condemn the habit of distro hopping, find one that you like and stick with it, come hell or high water.


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## Plasma_Snake (Dec 13, 2008)

smrtmontool passed my disk, does that mean I'm safe?


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## vamsi360 (Dec 13, 2008)

@hitboxx
Yeah i will stick to fedora. I will dare to use it as I have a lot of curiosity to learn new things and after seeing this forum I am spending some time perfecting my linux skills and hence think fedora is my best bet.


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## NucleusKore (Dec 24, 2008)

Hi
Just wanted to know if these values are acceptable?

*www.mediafire.com/?2z09wu2yliz


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