# Reservation System - Should it exist?



## The Conqueror (Apr 17, 2009)

Should the Reservation System exist in India???

In my Opinion,NO ,I Agree to the fact that some communities might not have got certain facilities in the past like SC/ST etc..but past is past..All are humans,Today everyone has equal rights then why the discrimination on reserving seats? Atleast it shouldnt be in education..

A Person with lower marks can easily get admission and get a good job ,but a hard working good citizen wont get easily admission becoz of this stupid reservation system.
At present there is no need to make reservation.Already the communities get books n all for free or discount so they have access to education but why make it tough for hard working students?


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## Liverpool_fan (Apr 17, 2009)

No it shouldn't. There should only be economic help and facilities to deprived section i.e. economically weaker sections rather than SC/STs..


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## Sridhar_Rao (Apr 17, 2009)

Reservation has no place in modern society, it creates social division than equality. It is more prone to misuse and its misuse creates more disparity and unrest among other sections. As pointed earlier, only economically weaker individuals (not sections of community) should get reservation. 

Reservation in primary and higher education (if at all given) is bearable but reservation in postgraduate courses and promotions in employment is terrible. Worthless people get promoted due to their origins. Rich people get reservations due to their origins, IS THIS FAIR?

Reservation is here to stay, as long as democracy is the form of governance in India, reservation will continue. The policy is not for "social upliftment of weaker sections" but for "political upliftment of political parties". Fullstop!!


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## Faun (Apr 17, 2009)

Liverpool_fan said:


> No it shouldn't. There should only be economic help and facilities to deprived section i.e. economically weaker sections rather than SC/STs..



This.


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## planetcall (Apr 27, 2009)

Reservation based on religion is irrelevant in our modern society. Equality has to be brought by equal opportunity. There should not be any special treatment for any class based on religion. Lets say NO to reservation and condemn people who politicize this issue.


*fc07.deviantart.com/fs15/f/2007/042/5/7/Kill_Your_Valentine_by_Dumnezeu.gif


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## tejass (Apr 28, 2009)

all the pro reservation activist shoud icked on their **** and thrown out of India.
these guys r dividing India on the basis of caste ,religion bl***y hell


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## rhitwick (May 5, 2009)

Sh1t, I wanted to vote for yes but clicked on No.

Watever, in my opinion reservation system should stay till school that too 10+2.

What Ambedkar tried to do is to facilitate everyone with same rights. At least for schooling we need this. After this period, entry should be based on merit.

Then again, there are meritorious students who can't afford higher studies only for financial reasons. 
What is ur solution for that.

Now-a-days education is a very good business. If u have money, the door is open for u, else....dream on.


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## amitash (May 5, 2009)

Reservation should NOT exist...just a pollitical propaganda


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## MetalheadGautham (May 8, 2009)

reservation sucks. period. merit FTW!


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## utsav (May 8, 2009)

Which fool voted for yes?


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## rhitwick (May 8, 2009)

mayanksahni said:


> Govt should give relaxation to them in fees according to family income but not reservation.


What u r talking is also a kind of reservation. Isn't it?


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## gopi_vbboy (May 8, 2009)

F* Caste based Reservation.....India wont come up with this crap...

*It shud be based on Poverty , Social Backwardness n Limited.*..*NOT on SH*** Casteism n Religion*...

I hate the period during my engg counselling....lossing seats i deserved for my merit...

.Ambedhkar may good contrib like constitution  n also  this blunder which was taken advantage by f* politicians like arjun singh a$$ho13....hate all of them

i believe one day a revolt will come out to flush out this crap....


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## rhitwick (May 8, 2009)

No, there won't be a revolt.

Cast based reservation was only developed for the poor. 
And favoring the poor is human nature.

.......


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## Faun (May 8, 2009)

^^lolwut ?


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## karnivore (May 8, 2009)

utsav said:


> Which fool voted for yes?


I stay away from this kind of pissing contest, but seeing your post, I decided that I should vote as well.

I voted for YES.


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## karnivore (May 8, 2009)

gopi_vbboy said:


> *It shud be based on Poverty , Social Backwardness n Limited.*..*NOT on SH*** Casteism n Religion*...


If Casteism is not "Social Backwardness", then what is it ?

Reservation based on poverty will only help in eradicating poverty. How do you propose to bring these men, who are discriminated only because they were born into certain family, into the mainstream.


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## karnivore (May 8, 2009)

tejass said:


> all the pro reservation activist shoud icked on their **** and thrown out of India.
> these guys r dividing India on the basis of caste ,religion bl***y hell


And all anti-reservation activists should be first stripped off their social status, then made to work and toil like these backward classes were made to, for at least about 2000 yrs.

Pro-reservation activists are only trying the correct the wrongs perpetrated in the name of fukcing religion.


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## Faun (May 8, 2009)

karnivore said:


> Pro-reservation activists are only trying the correct the wrongs perpetrated in the name of fukcing religion.



Good thing is that a person who is not necessarily backward by status but only by name is getting better seat in college compared to the one who got a better rank.

This thing is good for getting vote.


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## sibot (May 8, 2009)

I would like to start off by saying I donot have a Minority status and I am NOT covered under the reservation act but still I voted Yes.

I feel reservation is needed for the less-privileged BUT reservations in the education system should be only upto High School. The standards of good quality education till high school would ensure they are equally educated and knowledgeable as any other student, rest its a fight for the best. Once they have attained that standard of education, they are equipped for the battles to be fought that follow, i.e. entrance exams, job interviews, there is no reason why a person should be given boost in the job market even though he is clearly underqualified in comparison to his/her fellow applicants.

So, the reservation system should ONLY apply till the school level, that too under strict guidelines of performance. When they are receiving quality education, there is no reason they should perform under-average.


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## karnivore (May 8, 2009)

ichi said:


> Good thing is that a person who is not necessarily backward by status but only by name is getting better seat in college compared to the one who got a better rank.
> 
> This thing is good for getting vote.


Yes, i understand that abuse of the system exists. But it is still a small price to pay. Just because, loopholes in tax systems are abused to evade tax, it doesn't mean that the entire taxation law should be abolished. 

We can only work to plug the loopholes.


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## rhitwick (May 8, 2009)

The problem is much bigger than we can imagine.

Reservation upto High School won't improve the system. 
I say, make study till High School (12th) *mandatory* and *free of cost*.
This way everyone (backword class or watever) will get a same chance of testing their merit.

Also, make entrance exams *Free of Cost*. 
You know there are still a lot of people who just can't get a higher degree because of high cost of entrance exam. Even now, if someone dreams for MBA, he has to pay for every fcuking exam and form for every business school. 
Many of us just can't afford to take the risk of picking as much as 20 forms to enhance our entry (this is independent of reservation).

Only solution I find, which is economical for the exam authorities too, is ONLINE EXAM and ONLINE FORM filling. *Obviously those should be Free of Cost*.

Now, the problem comes to getting educated or a degree.
Scenario:-
U can't afford higher study but U've passed the entrance exams. (Lets say, not a mark which earns a scholarship but at least a SEAT in your choice of B'School)

*We need a system to overcome this situation.* No reservation system would solve this. 
They are reserving the seats but not lessening the fees, so, virtually its same as previous.


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## sibot (May 8, 2009)

Financial aid can be given but admissions at university level has to be purely on merit basis.


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## sujoyp (May 8, 2009)

I too will vote for free education in school thats up to 12th....after that student should go by merit...I dont wanna see a 35% scored student to be in NIT(national institute of technology) its just stupid that his forefather could not study soo he would also wont study but get seat in best colleges....

Reservation for anything be it poor people or cast will cause social division...and ultimately hatered

Better would be make everything free or everything on merit basis...


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## gopi_vbboy (May 8, 2009)

karnivore said:


> And all anti-reservation activists should be first stripped off their social status, then made to work and toil like these backward classes were made to, for at least about 2000 yrs.
> 
> Pro-reservation activists are only trying the correct the wrongs perpetrated in the name of fukcing religion.



Mind ur words...we r not here abusing religion

thers no use of talking abt wat some ancestors hav done....wat can present gen oc's can do for wat some ppl in olden times hav descriminated....its like the oc's are now backward in terms of oppurtunities 2day.....do the present gen desrve for wat someone else has done...competition shud be free without restrictions n reservation or system will b unsable n inefficient someday

already TN has 69% reserv,AP has 50%

i know how these guys from Reservation study...they jus njoy wat they got...never seen atleast one who stood top in class

for a matter of fact...i hav some classmates who hav come though reserv..they are above middle class families only...not so poor...each of these guy gets scholarship n reservation seat...wat he does studies well?no...njoys....these guys get cellphones in their first year scolarship of 28k...wat else...money is goin the wrong way....they spend scholarship money wrong ways.....which they do not need n can pay.


i hav a classmate also who is o.c n poor background...studies welll.but struggled to get scholarship....see the fate!
so the reservation is already wasting big money of tax payer goin for wrong ppl...i mean for above creamy layer


i again say f* ur caste based reserv...gonna not help the country if limit exceeds n not based on poverty.


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## MetalheadGautham (May 8, 2009)

You can't punish a man's son or grandson or great-grandson or any other ancestor for a crime the man initially did.

Nor can you punish a whole community for a crime only a majority of its people (read: not all) did.

I am totally against reservation. Its pointless in a modern society. I mean, modern girls today go after a guy for his charm, looks and brains. Or maybe wallets. Not because of his caste. And vice versa. No company intent on making profits will hire a n00b just because he is from an upper caste.

I today read a newspaper report which gave me shockwaves.

In Karnataka, our "glorious" CM decided to hand over Rs. 10000 to all SSLC (karnataka state board 10th standard) students who are girls from SC/ST families who got above 75% and Rs. 5000 to those who got 65% to 75%.

What th fu(k is that ? I remember my 10th standard well. I got 90.8% and I was a CBSE student. And a boy and from a so-called upper-caste. What did I get ? Nothing at all. And this year my sister in 10th is expecting over 95%. Whats she getting ? Nothing at all.

Does this CM even know WHAT Karnataka State Board Class 10 syllabus is like ? No he does not. Here, unlike CBSE, even average kids get over 85-90% (BTW, in CBSE even average kids get 75%). And he calls SC/ST girls with 65% and above meritorious ? Even the n00biest person (whether SC/ST or general student) I met in class 10 said karnataka SSLC exam was filthy easy and they could get 75%-80% without studying anything at all.

Infact, reservation has done more harm than good to the modern youth. I know many who have started hating SC/ST/OBC students because they feel that they too could have gotton into a better collage had the SC/ST/OBC students not had reservation benifits and competed in the same terms as others.


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## Coool (May 8, 2009)

Reservation Suckss!!


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## mediator (May 8, 2009)

karnivore said:
			
		

> If Casteism is not "Social Backwardness", then what is it ?


Nope its not. Is mayawati socially backward? All those so called 'leaders' in political parties with 'lower caste' stamp, are they socially backward? Its only the money power that decides who is backwards in todays time. While there may exist brahmins who really are not brahmins acc. to the "ideal" definition of the "varna system", they are not given any consideration. While 'tyical lower castes' if financially backward are then also considered socially backward. But is it true if the lower cast is not poor? I hope you know how easily people change their surnames in modern times and change their modern-age-defined caste. 



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Reservation based on poverty will only help in eradicating poverty.


If its financial help you are talking about, then I agree and if not then explain how?




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> What u r talking is also a kind of reservation. Isn't it?


We need to "define" who all are financially backwards to call financial help as reservation, which is plain slap on meritocracy. Until then we cannot call financial help as reservation. Its better to call it relaxation. People should be admitted on the basis of merit and then those who don't have sufficient funds to continue, should be given the relaxation, and made to compete on 'equal terms' and hence still upholding the meritocracy.

I personally know people from not so very finanically sound background and still doing good "without" carrying the tag of reservation, let alone the financial help. Many didn't even like the tag of reservation as they thought it would be a lasting curse on their career. While there are many from the rich background, and yet doing bad in life. 

In graduation, there were many although good in theoretical knowledge , but extremely poor in practical knowledge in computers as they didn't have a computer at home, to buy pendrives or to get an internet connection. Is reservation helping them in that case? "WHAT IF" these students graduate without possessing the sound practical knowledge? Will the companies teach them the practicals? Every computer engg. student knows the importance of practicals. And when such kind of help is not give, they copy practicals and projects from seniors adding to the chaos. All the joy and excitement loses the very minute when somebody thinks of copying the projects!! Even the mechanical engg. projects like " Real Car project" etc needs sponsoring and are not achieved due to the illogical reservation. Sponsorship is done, people experiment, make a prototype, yield a model and then a working car and hence gaining vast amount of knowledge in the process.     


Minority reservation, women reservation, cast based reservation? I think they should extend reservation to political parties and for the post of Prime Minister and President tooo. 



			
				mhg said:
			
		

> What th fu(k is that ? I remember my 10th standard well. *I got 90.8%* and I was a CBSE student. And a boy and from a so-called upper-caste. What did I get ? Nothing at all. And this year my sister in 10th is expecting over 95%. Whats she getting ? Nothing at all.


WOW


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## sujoyp (May 8, 2009)

I again disagree with all there financial help talks....India is soo corrupt that people will make those certificates so that they can take advantage of those financial help.....we saw what happened to bhopal gas leak....all the money was enjoyed by rich people and people who gave fake certificates....and poor people still die of pain.....no way i can see financial help will help in this...only corruption increases...
I will again say free is better....open government schools and make education free


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## karnivore (May 8, 2009)

gopi_vbboy said:


> Mind ur words...we r not here abusing religion


Can you think of caste without first thinking of the religion that allows casteism.



> thers no use of talking abt wat some ancestors hav done....wat can present gen oc's can do for wat some ppl in olden times hav descriminated....


Bravo !!!

For 2000 yrs, ostracize a bunch of people for being born into a particular family, persecute them, hound them, don't give them access to education, don't give them access to your religious rituals, don't touch them, don't let their shadow touch you, lest you loose your status, make them believe that they are the scum of the earth. 

Then, 2000 yrs later simply dismiss their rights by a wave of hand saying that we, the genX, are not responsible for their fate. Therefore they must continue to live in the same ignominy that they have lived in for the last 2000yrs.



> its like the oc's are now backward in terms of oppurtunities 2day.....do the present gen desrve for wat someone else has done...competition shud be free without restrictions n reservation or system will b unsable n inefficient someday


First make them live under your boot, then blame them for not being competitive enough. Excellent.



> already TN has 69% reserv,AP has 50%
> 
> i know how these guys from Reservation study...they jus njoy wat they got...never seen atleast one who stood top in class
> 
> ...


Irrelevant personal anecdote. Unless you provide some real statics that shows that the backward classes are not doing good, given the opportunity, this rant is not going to count.


> i again say f* ur caste based reserv...gonna not help the country if limit exceeds n not based on poverty.


yes you can fukc caste base reservation, for as long and as much as you want. It will only reinforce the arguments in favour of reservation.


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## karnivore (May 8, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> You can't punish a man's son or grandson or great-grandson or any other ancestor for a crime the man initially did.
> 
> Nor can you punish a whole community for a crime only a majority of its people (read: not all) did.


Its unfortunate that you think it that way. Please suggest me a method by which these people can be brought to the main stream. How do you suppose that a particular person, who has been inhumanly discriminated against, for generations, be able to compete with the ones who have always been privileged. 

Once you are born as lower caste, you are stuck with it. You get thrown into the garbage of social pecking order. You automatically loose certain social rights, that we, the upper class virtually take for granted. Unless, they are given an opportunity, at the cost of our own privileges, which, btw, doesn't even begin to come closer to what they have been made to sacrifice, how do you suppose equality in social system be brought about.

Why do you expect to retain all your privileges, sacrifice none and then expect these people to compete with you, and then when they can't, make a mockery of them.



> Infact, reservation has done more harm than good to the modern youth. I know many who have started hating SC/ST/OBC students because they feel that they too could have gotton into a better collage had the SC/ST/OBC students not had reservation benifits and competed in the same terms as others.


In other words, heads we win, tails they loose. GenX...my AZZ


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## i hate babies (May 8, 2009)

why cant we just remove the block in all applications and certificates where it asks us to fill in our cast wont it solve most of the problem?
not all poor people are from the lower cast so why cant the government build some good schools and colleges for helping these people? they can also make it free if possible
in the old days we had cast which says who does what in the community and also marriage happens between the cast which poor people to remain poor but now it is not like that so why cant we just remove the importance to the cast?  wont it be a better thing to do and help all kind of people in the society to move ahead


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## rhitwick (May 8, 2009)

rhitwick said:


> The problem is much bigger than we can imagine.
> 
> Reservation upto High School won't improve the system.
> I say, make study till High School (12th) *mandatory* and *free of cost*.
> ...


Anyone want to comment on this??


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## Liverpool_fan (May 8, 2009)

karnivore said:


> For 2000 yrs, ostracize a bunch of people for being born into a particular family, persecute them, hound them, don't give them access to education, don't give them access to your religious rituals, don't touch them, don't let their shadow touch you, lest you loose your status, make them believe that they are the scum of the earth.


lolwut? So for the so called 2000 years of suffering, suddenly the so called "lower-castes" should be spoon-fed?



> Then, 2000 yrs later simply dismiss their rights by a wave of hand saying that we, the genX, are not responsible for their fate. Therefore they must continue to live in the same ignominy that they have lived in for the last 2000yrs.


Who said that? Kindly stay on topic.



> First make them live under your boot, then blame them for not being competitive enough. Excellent.


lolunub? Who says they are not competetive enough? Again you are going off-topic. 
But certainly if someone is not meritious, then he/she doesn't deserve anything just because their ancestors suffered.



> Irrelevant personal anecdote. Unless you provide some real statics that shows that the backward classes are not doing good, given the opportunity, this rant is not going to count.
> yes you can fukc caste base reservation, for as long and as much as you want. It will only reinforce the arguments in favour of reservation.


Again who said they are not doing enough? In fact there are plenty who do so well, that they hardly need any reservation.

As a side note, I am personally against caste based reservation. I personally believe on the basis of economic status, the poor who can't afford education should be provided free schooling/discounted school fees in good schools, books, free coaching, and reduced fees in colleges.


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## MetalheadGautham (May 8, 2009)

karnivore said:


> Its unfortunate that you think it that way. Please suggest me a method by which these people can be brought to the main stream. How do you suppose that a particular person, who has been inhumanly discriminated against, for generations, be able to compete with the ones who have always been privileged.



A genious is MADE not BORN. What makes you think that same people from different castes from same schools fare better or worse depending on their caste ?

And what makes you think that by providing reservation people come to mainstream ? Do you know how much respect a person looses because he went ahead of another purely on the basis of caste ? Whether you are an upper caste guy who went up compared to lower caste guy due to social influence on n00b faggots who discriminate on caste, or whether you are a lower caste guy  who went up compared to upper caste guy due to reservation - both loose respect in the eyes of civilised populations of India.



> Once you are born as lower caste, you are stuck with it. You get thrown into the garbage of social pecking order. You automatically loose certain social rights, that we, the upper class virtually take for granted.


Are you from Iraq ? Because the last time I checked, none of my SC/ST/OBC friends lost anything when it comes to social rights here in a modern place like Bangalore.



> Unless, they are given an opportunity, at the cost of our own privileges, which, btw, doesn't even begin to come closer to what they have been made to sacrifice, how do you suppose equality in social system be brought about.


Equality ? You mean to say, SC/ST/OBC people are equal to other people because they get "preferential treatment" by the government ? What an oxymoron.



> Why do you expect to retain all your privileges, sacrifice none and then expect these people to compete with you, and then when they can't, make a mockery of them.


Can you tell me what "privilage" I have which others dont ? Everything I have is of my own creation. Nothing was brought upon me thanks to birth except half-decent financial security due to me being in a middle class family.



> In other words, heads we win, tails they loose. GenX...my AZZ


Oh really ? You mean to say, if I am slower finishing a 1000m run compared to an SC/ST/OBC guy finishing a 900m run, I must say the race was fair ?

And yeah, BTW, I'm from GenY not GenX just for the reference.


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## i hate babies (May 8, 2009)

rhitwick said:


> The problem is much bigger than we can imagine.
> 
> Reservation upto High School won't improve the system.
> I say, make study till High School (12th) *mandatory* and *free of cost*.
> ...





> You know there are still a lot of people who just can't get a higher degree because of high cost of entrance exam. Even now, if someone dreams for MBA, he has to pay for every fcuking exam and form for every business school.
> Many of us just can't afford to take the risk of picking as much as 20 forms to enhance our entry (this is independent of reservation).


isn't that happening because the education is made into a business   where i live anyone who has a big land to build big buildings are starting colleges you can give them lacks in donation but you cant get any standard of education there 
i think government should take education into their hands to prevent this from happening


> Only solution I find, which is economical for the exam authorities too, is ONLINE EXAM and ONLINE FORM filling. *Obviously those should be Free of Cost*.
> 
> Now, the problem comes to getting educated or a degree.
> Scenario:-
> ...


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## karnivore (May 8, 2009)

mediator said:


> Nope its not. Is mayawati socially backward? All those so called 'leaders' in political parties with 'lower caste' stamp, are they socially backward? Its only the money power that decides who is backwards in todays time. While there may exist brahmins who really are not brahmins acc. to the "ideal" definition of the "varna system", they are not given any consideration. While 'tyical lower castes' if financially backward are then also considered socially backward. But is it true if the lower cast is not poor? I hope you know how easily people change their surnames in modern times and change their modern-age-defined caste.


If you think that Mayawati or Mulayam Singh or Lalu Singh or Rambilas etc. are the only people who belong to this lower caste, they you are insulting your own intelligence. Just visit any village of UP or Bihar and knock yourself out. 

On a side note, you are equating economic backwardness as social backwardness. It is not.


> If its financial help you are talking about, then I agree and if not then explain how?


I was replying to something else. Go back and read it.

The general idea among the members of this forum is that caste-based reservation system is to alivate the economically backwards. It is not necessarily so. The primary aim of the reservation is to bring about a social equality, by enabling them to be represented in every segment of society. At the time of independence, there were hardly any backward class people in the administrative jobs. But today, they do get a representation, though not nearly enough. 

The system is somewhat in the same line as Affirmative Action in US. (Affirmative Action, is entirely different system, but strives to achieve the same objective as caste-based system)


> We need to "define" who all are financially backwards to call financial help as reservation, which is plain slap on meritocracy. Until then we cannot call financial help as reservation. Its better to call it relaxation. People should be admitted on the basis of merit and then those who don't have sufficient funds to continue, should be given the relaxation, and made to compete on 'equal terms' and hence still upholding the meritocracy.


If a person is getting a benefit, because his family income is below a threshold, then it is reservation. By calling it "relaxation" or "whackalooloo" would'nt really change it.

I would ask you to define "merit". What if I say, that what you are calling merit, is actually a persons performance on a particular day (e.g. JEE exam day). Of about 300,000 appicants, only 3,000 gets admitted to IITs. What about the 3,001th guy or the 3,002nd guy. Is he then mediocre because he couldn't make it to the IIT.

Of course not. IITs, or any other institute can't take more than a certain number because of infrastructuaral constraints. In other words, the so called merit-based system becomes victim to something which is not even connected to merit.

So really. Is it merit that is being judged here, or someone's performance on a given day that is judged. Is our system, really merit based. 

And what about those private institutes, where donation holds the key. What about those systems. Is that merit based ?

Competing on 'equal terms'. 'Equal terms'? What does that mean. How can a person, whose family has been cleaning the toilets forever, compete with the one, who spends his spare time, hanging in supermalls or playing on his latest PS3, on 'equal terms'. Where is the equality ? Where is the oportunity to be equal ?


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## MetalheadGautham (May 8, 2009)

karnivore said:


> I would ask you to define "merit". What if I say, that what you are calling merit, is actually a persons performance on a particular day (e.g. JEE exam day). Of about 300,000 appicants, only 3,000 gets admitted to IITs. What about the 3,001th guy or the 3,002nd guy. Is he then mediocre because he couldn't make it to the IIT.
> 
> Of course not. IITs, or any other institute can't take more than a certain number because of infrastructuaral constraints. In other words, the so called merit-based system becomes victim to something which is not even connected to merit.



Don't you see ? Only the best are given preference. Even a slightest difference in performance is considered when talking about merit. I just phailed IIT-JEE and AIEEE but I am not complaining. Why ? Because somebody was better than me and they got the ranks.



> So really. Is it merit that is being judged here, or someone's performance on a given day that is judged. Is our system, really merit based.



Thats a completely wrong notion. To write IIT-JEE or AIEEE you need full 2 years worth of practice. Performance on a day won't differ by much unless the examinee decides to be extremely lax and casual about the exam.



> And what about those private institutes, where donation holds the key. What about those systems. Is that merit based ?



Don't want to pay donations ? Don't study there. Simple as that. I am yet to see a private institute which askes for donations perform at par with merit based institutes as far as percentage scored by its students BTW.



> Competing on 'equal terms'. 'Equal terms'? What does that mean. How can a person, whose family has been cleaning the toilets forever, compete with the one, who spends his spare time, hanging in supermalls or playing on his latest PS3, on 'equal terms'. Where is the equality ? Where is the oportunity to be equal ?


I have an uber rich friend who has a PS3, a PSP, a 60" 1080p Plasma TV, his family owns 4 cars and he has his own Karizma Bike worth 1 Lakh. I am just an average middle class kid.

Going by your logic he should beat me right ? Wrong. I get atleast 20-30% more marks than him.

Thats because academic performance does not depend on monetary assets. It depends upon how much a person studies, and how much a person tunes/sharpens his thinking power.


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## karnivore (May 8, 2009)

Liverpool_fan said:


> lolwut? So for the so called 2000 years of suffering, suddenly the so called "lower-castes" should be spoon-fed?


"Spoon fed" is not the word, that I would use. But yes. Its been only 62 years, that we have got a country that we can properly call ours and can run accordingly. So yes, "for the so called 2000 years of suffering", it is our responsibility to bring about that change. What you are effectively saying is that, hey let them be how they are.


> Who said that? Kindly stay on topic.


Everytime, when people like you use gibberish arguments against reservation, without actually understanding, what the purpose of the reservation is, you imply that only.


> lolunub? Who says they are not competetive enough? Again you are going off-topic.
> But certainly if someone is not meritious, then he/she doesn't deserve anything just because their ancestors suffered.


First, do you really know what the topic is ? Second, try to read things in perspective.


> Again who said they are not doing enough? In fact *there are plenty who do so well, that they hardly need any reservation*.


Then I must be living in a different India. I am too tired to cite you 2001 census. It is public document. Go take a look.


> As a side note, I am personally against caste based reservation. I personally believe on the basis of economic status, the poor who can't afford education should be provided free schooling/discounted school fees in good schools, books, free coaching, and reduced fees in colleges.


But that will remove economic inequality, probably. Caste-based system is for social inequality. Learn the difference.


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## MetalheadGautham (May 8, 2009)

Let me tell you of my grandfather, a man whom I truly respect. This will tell you why anybody with a will to succeed can become great.

His father was prohaned at the age of 12 with 3 sisters to take care of. The only way to lead a life was as a priest doing various stuff. He was financially highly insecure.

My grandfather used to wear only a loin cloth and a dhothi to school. He had no shirts or pants. He used to use a pencil for a whole month atleast. Most of his books were second hand. Finally, when he had to go to collage, he had pants stitched out of dhoti cloth.

But none of this prevented him from studying engineering in a government collage with scholarship and becoming Kerala Water Works' Chief Engineer and heading the department. All this without help from reservation since he was from a so-called "upper caste" brahmin family.

He says he needed nothing more than the light of the sun to be able to read books. At night he used to read with help of street lights, but today everybody has bulbs at home. Tell me if anybody lacks this. I am a lot better off than him at the same age, but I use the same resources as him to study. The light of the sun. So do everybody else.


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## rhitwick (May 8, 2009)

^ lets say, ur gradfather got entry to that govt. engg. college "without" scholarship. Then what??

What do u visualize then? How he could have managed?

Now, imagine the situation in today FORMAT with COST


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## Liverpool_fan (May 8, 2009)

karnivore said:


> "Spoon fed" is not the word, that I would use. But yes. Its been only 62 years, that we have got a country that we can properly call ours and can run accordingly. So yes, "for the so called 2000 years of suffering", it is our responsibility to bring about that change. What you are effectively saying is that, hey let them be how they are.


62 years right? I wonder how reservation has actually helped the so called "lower castes" for these 62 years...




> Everytime, when people like you use gibberish arguments against reservation, without actually understanding, what the purpose of the reservation is, you imply that only.


Care to explain what "purpose" reservation serves in your mind I mean?



> First, do you really know what the topic is ? Second, try to read things in perspective.


I know very well what the topic is. 



> Then I must be living in a different India. I am too tired to cite you 2001 census. It is public document. Go take a look.


So you wish to imply "lower castes" are not good enough? YOU ARE WRONG!!!
Why the major part of "lower castes" are not doing well? Because they are given reservation at the top level but NEVER the BASIC facilities they require.
What would a a person do with reservation when they can't have proper schooling?



> But that will remove economic inequality, probably. Caste-based system is for social inequality. Learn the difference.


Removing the economic discrimination of people particularly the so called lower castes will go a LONG LONG WAY to removing social inequality.
With proper education and facilities offered, the poor people and that INCLUDES the lower caste excluding creamy layer will benefit. 
They will be able to become doctors, engineers, etc. and thus would have adequete representation in government and private sectors and slowly and steadily the social inequality will dissolve.


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## karnivore (May 8, 2009)

Answers are comming thick and fast. So I am hurrying through. Pardon me if I don't answer to all and if some answers appear just one liners.



MetalheadGautham said:


> A genious is MADE not BORN. What makes you think that same people from different castes from same schools fare better or worse depending on their caste ?


And geniuses are common, right? I didn't say what you are implying. Read it again and again and again. It means something else.



> And what makes you think that by providing reservation people come to mainstream ?


Stats. There was no representation of backward classes at the administrative level. Now there is some. Slow. Not enough. But surely working.


> Do you know how much respect a person looses because he went ahead of another purely on the basis of caste ? Whether you are an upper caste guy who went up compared to lower caste guy due to social influence on n00b faggots who discriminate on caste, or whether you are a lower caste guy  who went up compared to upper caste guy due to reservation - both loose respect in the eyes of civilised populations of India.


You are not providing any counter argument. You are facilitating mine only. Tell me. What do these "*civilised* populations of India" consist of.



> Are you from Iraq ? Because the last time I checked, none of my SC/ST/OBC friends lost anything when it comes to social rights here in a modern place like Bangalore.


When was the last time you went to a village in UP that takes about an hour drive  from any decent town, on almost unpaved road, with no electricity and a well specifically for dalits which is at least 5 km away from the village. 

The problem with people like you is that you refuse see anything beyond your peripheral urban vision. India beyond Delhi, Mumbai, Kolkata, Chennai, Bangalore etc. do not exist for you guys.



> Equality ? You mean to say, SC/ST/OBC people are equal to other people because they get "preferential treatment" by the government ? What an oxymoron.


If you are trying to prove that you like to shoot your mouth on impulse, without understanding what is being said, then congrats, you are doing it well.


> Can you tell me what "privilage" I have which others dont ? Everything I have is of my own creation. Nothing was brought upon me thanks to birth except half-decent financial security due to me being in a middle class family.


Go to any village of UP or Bihar. Then try to figure that out.


> Oh really ? You mean to say, if I am slower finishing a 1000m run compared to an SC/ST/OBC guy finishing a 900m run, I must say the race was fair ?


On the other hand if you are racing a guy who is limping, how fair is the race.


> And yeah, BTW, I'm from GenY not GenX just for the reference.


Good to know. Even worse.



MetalheadGautham said:


> Don't you see ? Only the best are given preference. Even a slightest difference in performance is considered when talking about merit. I just phailed IIT-JEE and AIEEE but I am not complaining. Why ? Because somebody was better than me and they got the ranks.
> 
> Thats a completely wrong notion. To write IIT-JEE or AIEEE you need full 2 years worth of practice. Performance on a day won't differ by much unless the examinee decides to be extremely lax and casual about the exam.


No I don't see it. People who seriously prepare for IIT-JEE are almost at an equal platform, as far as hardwork goes. No body just strolls in for these exams.

I suggest, you inquire about MIT's admission policiy. There's a tiny surprise waiting for you.


> Don't want to pay donations ? Don't study there. Simple as that. I am yet to see a private institute which askes for donations perform at par with merit based institutes as far as percentage scored by its students BTW.


It is not about my preference. And buddy, my day job used to be dealing with taxations. Don't tell me how to hide donations under the garb of fees.


> I have an uber rich friend who has a PS3, a PSP, a 60" 1080p Plasma TV, his family owns 4 cars and he has his own Karizma Bike worth 1 Lakh. I am just an average middle class kid.[
> 
> Going by your logic he should beat me right ? Wrong. I get atleast 20-30% more marks than him.


SIGH

I see, even sarcasm is lost on you.


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## karnivore (May 8, 2009)

Liverpool_fan said:


> 62 years right? I wonder how reservation has actually helped the so called "lower castes" for these 62 years...


Hmmm...so you want me to "spoon feed" you ? How about starting from census report 2001, then slowly moving on to Tamil Nadu. You can also check and compare, how much of the representation of these backward class improved since 1947.


> Care to explain what "purpose" reservation serves in your mind I mean?


I have said it already. Read all the posts.


> I know very well what the topic is.


Really ? Then you wouldn't have confused a legitimate argument as off topic.


> So you wish to imply "lower castes" are not good enough? YOU ARE WRONG!!!
> Why the major part of "lower castes" are not doing well? Because they are given reservation at the top level but NEVER the BASIC facilities they require.
> What would a a person do with reservation when they can't have proper schooling?


I wish to imply that without adequate support, the backward classes wouldn't be able come to the fore. And don't base your arguments on the basis of your urban experience.



> The problem of basic facilities is not unique to lower caste. It is a typical problem that requires to be solved. The question is not, what would happen if this is done. Question is, how can we facilitate their access, to what is existing right now.
> With proper education and facilities offered, the poor people and that INCLUDES the lower caste excluding creamy layer will benefit.
> They will be able to become doctors, engineers, etc. and thus would have adequete representation in government and private sectors and slowly and steadily the social inequality will dissolve.


In an ideal society, perhaps. Not in a society where, one has to walk miles just to get his drinking water, just because he is dalit. The so called reservation on the basis of economic disposition is good in theory, but both impossible to implement, and ineffective in reality. There are incentives like mid day meal, free scholarships etc. These haven't helped a wee bit in eradicating the social stigma that a dalit has to bear.


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## Liverpool_fan (May 8, 2009)

I wonder how then reservation can help a dalit who can't make his too ends meet and can't even have basic education facilities. 
And I wonder what lies in store for a poor Brahmin....


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## karnivore (May 8, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> Let me tell you of my grandfather, a man whom I truly respect. This will tell you why anybody with a will to succeed can become great.
> 
> His father was prohaned at the age of 12 with 3 sisters to take care of. The only way to lead a life was as a priest doing various stuff. He was financially highly insecure.
> 
> ...


Now suppose your grandfather was a dalit, with no access to any school/college, no one to give him books to study. Ridicule and curse were his only company. How do you suppose he would have become what he became later on. 

Reservation attempts to make sure, that these people have access to schools and colleges, like your grandfather had, by virtue of being an upper caste. 

PS: Don't bring anecdotes as arguments, particularly if it is about your family.


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## karnivore (May 8, 2009)

Liverpool_fan said:


> I wonder how then reservation can help a dalit who can't make his too ends meet and can't even have basic education facilities.
> And I wonder what lies in store for a poor Brahmin....


This is a very ingenuous way of comparing apples to oranges.

Forget reservation for the time being. Take a poor brahmin and an equally poor dalit, in rural area of, say for example, UP. All other things remaining same, now tell me, who has better chance to change his fortune. 

We can have a reservation based on family earning, only when there exists no other inequality in the society, when all are on equal footing, except for economic disposition. But as long as there exists discrimination based on caste, any reservation, which doesn't take into consideration, such inequality, will be useless.

Please stop shedding these crocodile tears for poor brahmins. They had a good run. Its time for them to repay.


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## Liverpool_fan (May 8, 2009)

karnivore said:


> This is a very ingenuous way of comparing apples to oranges.
> 
> Forget reservation for the time being. Take a poor brahmin and an equally poor dalit, in rural area of, say for example, UP. All other things remaining same, now tell me, who has better chance to change his fortune.


Brahmin I guess. 
But I wonder how reservation will actually help them. As I have mentioned again and again which you have dodged so easily, that these people are not given even given BASIC FACILITIES for god sake and you talk of reservation in Public Services and Higher Education...goddammit....
Tell me...the so called lower castes there are two parts among them.
Those who are actually being discrimated actually end up still being discrimated and don't even get the oppurtunity to compete in order to actually take benefit of reservation and then there are babus who just sit in their AC homes and avail them while a poor Brahmin is toiling hard...but you want that right...



> We can have a reservation based on family earning, only when there exists no other inequality in the society, when all are on equal footing, except for economic disposition. But as long as there exists discrimination based on caste, any reservation, which doesn't take into consideration, such inequality, will be useless.


How can reservation tackle that inequality? It only creates a small class of SC/ST babus whose sons and grand sons continue availing these reservations while the actual deserving ones get nothing.



> Please stop shedding these crocodile tears for poor brahmins. They had a good run. Its time for them to repay.


You want the cycle to go on right? REVENGE is the word. So Sweet.  

I can only laugh at your bitterness.


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## vamsi_krishna (May 8, 2009)

I haven't got the maturity mind to talk about the reservations. But I am daring to tell my opinion on reservation.


Dr. B.R.Ambedkar has introduced reservation system in our Indian Constitution, to do justification for the people who has been neglected in the society. It is obvious that neglected people are S.C. and S.T. and B.C. cast people. It's acceptable during that time and even now it is only acceptable up to some extent. 

But the problem comes with the utilization the reservations. You can't develop the S.C and S.T people by barely giving them Reservations and S.C.,S.T protection cell and the special laws and by-laws like S.C.,S.T atrocities Act and telling the "go f@k ur slef.".... The government and well aclaimed constitution has to do some thing more to them.

I live in Andhra Pradesh, and i am only telling the present situation here. I don't know wheather the position is like this in all states but in this state things are really f@kd up. You can see a dalit who is doing a job of fortune telling with holding a cage which has parrot in it...... and sending his son to Cycle mechanic shop. And i can see a dalit who has multi storied building and joining his son in M.B.B.S with the reservation quota. I see lods of dalits who is doing some odd jobs and sending their childrens to mechanic shops, to do black ticketing, and begging. I see a hell lot of dalits who are doing decent jobs living self sustained and utilising the reservation quota. 

The dalit who is doing decent job dosen't need the reservation. But he is utilising it. And what is the use of giving reservation to a dalit who is not capable to feed his children properly.

This reservation is not up to use in current situation. they need some thing more to do good to the dalits.  Like providing them habilitation facilities, Giving them decent jobs, providing direct mony transfer facility to them and so on.

If there is any one who is getting loss due to the reservations is the poor O.C people. 
The government should add the poor O.C  people or B.C people, the cast dosen't matter.....they should recognise theose people as the S.Cs or S.T.s

well...that's my openion on reservatinos.


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## karnivore (May 8, 2009)

Liverpool_fan said:


> Brahmin I guess.
> But I wonder how reservation will actually help them. As I have mentioned again and again which you have dodged so easily, that these people are not given even given BASIC FACILITIES for god sake and you talk of reservation in Public Services and Higher Education...goddammit....


At least we agree on one thing. I get the feeling you are realizing what I am trying to say. 

The rest of your post asks the question of the utility of reservation, if basic facilities are not provided to the dalits.

Let me answer that with a rhetorical question, removing from the equation, the dalits. What is the use of education at all, if all day long all you have to think of, is survival ? 

Now suppose, a person, belonging to this economic strata, decides, "to hell with this kind of survival, I would rather seek education and die trying, rather than barely survive". What are his options then. Now bring in that brahmin and that dalit. The answer, you already have.

As you can see, that these are entirely two different things. "Reservation" is a tool to provide an opportunity to the dalits to come to the fore and change their social standing. 


> Tell me...the so called lower castes there are two parts among them.
> Those who are actually being discrimated actually end up still being discrimated and don't even get the oppurtunity to compete in order to actually take benefit of reservation and then there are babus who just sit in their AC homes and avail them while a poor Brahmin is toiling hard...but you want that right...


I am sick and tired of this kind faulty arguments. First, no system is full proof, and there will be those who will exploit every such system. Rapes and murders have not ceased in spite of having Criminal Code and severe punishment. Shall we then abolish all laws, because, hey, someone is taking advantage of it.

As with poor brahmins. As per 1991 census, there were 1382.23 Lakh SCs, comprising of a whopping 16.48 % of total population and 677.58 Lakh STs, comprising of 8.08 % of total population. In other words, a quarter of out entire population belongs to the group that would not like to touch us. And I must loose sleep over what a minuscule population perceives as discrimination against them.

No buddy, I am not laughing. I am too disappointed to even smile.


> How can reservation tackle that inequality? It only creates a small class of SC/ST babus whose sons and grand sons continue availing these reservations while the actual deserving ones get nothing.


Another uninformed comment. 


> You want the cycle to go on right? REVENGE is the word. So Sweet.
> 
> I can only laugh at your bitterness.


REVENGE is too strong a word. But you are entitled to your opinion. And yes you can laugh at my bitterness. Being ignorant about social issues, has its benefits. 

Hey Psst...if I hadn't been an atheist, I would have probably introduced myself as what you call a brahmin.


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## Disc_Junkie (May 8, 2009)

To all, go here and have a look at this website!! It may clear many doubts of the issue!

*reservation-and-present.blogspot.com/


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## mediator (May 9, 2009)

karnivore said:
			
		

> Its unfortunate that you think it that way. *Please suggest me a method by which these people can be brought to the main stream.* How do you suppose that a particular person, who has been inhumanly discriminated against, for generations, be able to compete with the ones who have always been privileged.


You know I didn't even know whether the person sitting in my class was a scheduled cast. For 3 consecutive years I was ignorant of his background. A few people having surnames like "Singh" and "Kumar", and later I found they were scheduled cast and entered through reservation. Not every "Singh" and "Kumar" is scheduled cast. I didn't even know what a scheduled cast was at that time. Who is responsible for such an an enlightenment?

Just when the society starts to forget such bullcraps, we are injected with a poison, that yes, something like this is there. So I guess you answered yourself. Removing such kind of illogical reservation would be the first step to bring these people into mainstream!!!




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> *Once you are born as lower caste, you are stuck with it.* You get thrown into the garbage of social pecking order. *You automatically loose certain social rights, that we, the upper class virtually take for granted. Unless, they are given an opportunity,* at the cost of our own privileges, which, btw, doesn't even begin to come closer to what they have been made to sacrifice, how do you suppose equality in social system be brought about.


Wrong again!! First, religion has nothing to do with cast system as so conspicuous from your "born as lower cast" clause. Its all a part of human imagination. Second, what do you mean by "are stuck with it"? I thought you knew how people change their surnames these days so easily just like they can change their faiths. So I guess nobody is "stuck" with it. Third, instead of punishing the self-proclaimed upper class people for discrimination against lower caste, you are adding fuel to the fire by discriminating against the meritorous? How sane is that?

Justice won't be brought until you punish those who do injustice towards the weak or discriminate against meritorous students.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> If you think that Mayawati or Mulayam Singh or Lalu Singh or Rambilas etc. are the only people who belong to this lower caste, they you are insulting your own intelligence. Just visit any village of UP or Bihar and knock yourself out.
> 
> On a side note, you are equating economic backwardness as social backwardness. It is not.


When did I say that they are the only people? Naming a few is sufficient enough to point out the flaw in your argument. You would also find plenty of people who call themselves pandits or brahmins, act like goons and know nothing knowledgable!! Telling me about the villages again reflects how you are ignoring the discrimination by those who call themselves as upper class. Who the heck is upper class neways?

Next, I am not equating economic backwardness with social backwardness, but in general that there is nothing like cast system defining and categorising as to who is "socially backward" and that economic backwardness is the "cause" of much of the "social backwardness". 

e.g, You are supposed to be a scheduled cast, and earn in crores. Do you think the society will give a damn about your "cast" or at the time of marriage?? You think the person can't change his/her cast even then? Try to check up the reality for it might knock you out.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> The general idea among the members of this forum is that caste-based reservation system is to alivate the economically backwards. It is not necessarily so. *The primary aim of the reservation is to bring about a social equality, by enabling them to be represented in every segment of society. At the time of independence, there were hardly any backward class people in the administrative jobs. But today, they do get a representation, though not nearly enough.*
> 
> The system is somewhat in the same line as Affirmative Action in US. (Affirmative Action, is entirely different system, but strives to achieve the same objective as caste-based system)


Forget the forum, lets talk about the nation. Again, are you thinking about social justice at the expense of merit? I disagree again, the primary aim of reservation only remains in "theory". Political exploitation of the illogical system, discrimination towards the meritorous students, cursing them (reserved ones) with a life long tag of "reservation" which "indentifies" them differently as inferior of some sort and decieving the companies are the only "realistic" consequences of it. So I think, even the "theoretical" part of reservation is fundamentally flawed!!




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> *If a person is getting a benefit, because his family income is below a threshold, then it is reservation.* By calling it "relaxation" or "whackalooloo" would'nt really change it.


First, the meaning and usage of the term "threshold" is flawed, for you know how people can show false income. You can even see how beggars try to act like really ill-fated carry a young child with them and when the whole drama is over, just try to peek at the corner they go to. You might be amazed how they wear totally new costume. For once I even saw a beggar at the back of a rickshaw in  tidy clothes. 

And what if that supposedly or paper conirmed "below threshold", "reservation tagged" guy rides a bike, wears fancy jeans, woodland T-Shirts, nice pair of Ray Ban glasses and spiky hair cuts?? I think you really need to check out the reality.

I think you live in Kolkata. Come to Delhi to witness the "miracles" happening right in front of your own eyes!!!!!




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> I would ask you to define "merit". What if I say, that what you are calling merit, is actually a persons performance on a particular day (e.g. JEE exam day). Of about 300,000 appicants, only 3,000 gets admitted to IITs. What about the 3,001th guy or the 3,002nd guy. Is he then mediocre because he couldn't make it to the IIT.
> 
> Of course not. IITs, or any other institute can't take more than a certain number because of infrastructuaral constraints. *In other words, the so called merit-based system becomes victim to something which is not even connected to merit.*
> 
> So really. Is it merit that is being judged here, or someone's performance on a given day that is judged. Is our system, really merit based.


Again your example is actually divorced from reality. Have you ever heard of people who got top ranks in IITs and DCE, but chose to go with DCE (Delhi college of engineering)? Its quite common actually. What will you call it, a slap to IIT?

The basic flaw here is that you are treating IITs as some ultimate prize. Have you ever heard of cases where IITians have been rejected because of their character flaws like high ego and unfriendliness? If not, then Believe me for its real!!

Ofcourse, every institution has its own criterias. You stated of IIT as if every other institute has criterias like IIT. Perhaps you would like to learn about "BIMTECH". There might be many others. Also, it is not necessary that a person who might be doing good in objective, be equally doing good in subjective which is the next stage. Like wise in many institutes there are further stages that involve GDPI. A person who is sound in aptitude and maths might not to be so fluent in English or friendly and confident  in case of interviews. Hence, institutes might not have the same criterias.

Also, Its quite common for people who excel in CBSE board exams ( @mhg, ignore it ) to perform bad later in graduation where they flunk and repeat semester exams. Whereas, there are others who were average, some who were considered as insolent brats in school perform excellent in graduation and post graduation. 

So how come the merit based system becomes a "victim"? Thats how the system is and it gives you plenty of choices to opt from which might be different in many aspects. A student from a regional college might achieve high and a student from IIT might bite the dust.

Another flaw in your argument is that, what does someone's past performance has to do with IIT entrance test? I think IITs treat everyone "equally" on the day of test and  "irrespective" of their cast, color, gender or wateva score (ofcors higher than 60) they scored etc. Just check out how many students in FITJEE, Pie , Vidya mandir etc study to just get above the criteria marks, i.e 60 or 65 whicheva it was, so as to qualify and then top IIT. While many others who perform well in CBSE, don't perform well in IIT. Past performance? 

If the person cracks IIT, he is adding to his resume and to his "past performance". If not, it doesn't mean his resume can't be polished further. "Past performance" doesn't mean that those who were naughty in their skool time wouldn't shine in the future. And hence, your point of "past performance" is also flawed where it might be considered in some institutes and might not in others. Ofcourse, a past record of friendly nature has to be considered. 




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> And what about those private institutes, where donation holds the key. What about those systems. Is that merit based ?


That again comes under a class of institutes which have "different" criteria. 
But neways, 'money power' is as evil as reservation and it again strengthens my point that those who get through money power need not excel coz everything subsequent is based on your own mettle and capabilities. e.g Rahul Gandhi, who entered through money power, failed at harvard and came back in around three months!! 




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Competing on 'equal terms'. 'Equal terms'? What does that mean. How can a person, whose family has been cleaning the toilets forever, compete with the one, who spends his spare time, hanging in supermalls or playing on his latest PS3, on 'equal terms'. Where is the equality ? Where is the oportunity to be equal ?


Equal terms simply means to enable a financially weaker student to compete with a general class student so that problems related to money do not become obstructions to his career or time in deciding for his career. 

Further, you think all the general class students are at the same financial level? Some might travel via bus and some might travel via car to the college and so do many "lower cast" people. Some might have an unlimited internet while some might have the Rs.299 plan. "Equal terms" simply means to enable a financially weak student to have internet connection "to do his homework and practicals in spare time", to subsidise the price of books for him, may be to increase the number of library cards, to lower their fees to the level that is acceptable to them, like @rhitwick stated "make entrance exams Free of Cost for them", i.e try to give them all the facilities and initiatives that the general class students "ideally" njoy. Ah well, 'financial problems' are an obstacle even for many of the general class students. Why are they exluded from the reservation then?

So again, you are only talking 'theoretical'. I think the whole idea of reservation is extremely flawed and self-contradicting.  


@rhitwick, my post is intended for you too. If the government can reward the terrorist like this spend millions during votes, and ill-planned structre of the roads which are then dugged again n again etc wasting both time and money, then I think relaxing the educational fee would really be nothin in comparison.


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## rhitwick (May 9, 2009)

mediator said:


> You know I didn't even know whether the person sitting in my class was a scheduled cast. For 3 consecutive years I was ignorant of his background. A few people having surnames like "Singh" and "Kumar", and later I found they were scheduled cast and entered through reservation. Not every "Singh" and "Kumar" is scheduled cast. I didn't even know what a scheduled cast was at that time. Who is responsible for such an an enlightenment?


Ignorance is bliss...eh??



> Just when the society starts to forget such bullcraps, we are injected with a poison, that yes, something like this is there. So I guess you answered yourself. Removing such kind of illogical reservation would be the first step to bring these people into mainstream!!!


Why do u want to forget. It won't help, it doesn't. U want or not, it will be there. For a day u forget that ur classmate is not from dat slum, will it help him in future or his/her family. We do what we do best, i.e. close our eyes and ears. Gandhi-ji ki teen bandar. 




> Wrong again!! First, religion has nothing to do with cast system as so conspicuous from your "born as lower cast" clause. Its all a part of human imagination. Second, what do you mean by "are stuck with it"? I thought you knew how people change their surnames these days so easily just like they can change their faiths. So I guess nobody is "stuck" with it.


If u've forgot ur history lessons, let me remind u how "born as lower cast" works. It started from "Barnasram pratha" which consisted of four colors or casts (Brahman, Kshatriya, Basishya (Businessman) and shudras (Cobbler, Laundry, Barber etc). 
Sons of the lower cast (here  less baishya and more Shudras) people were always treated as of their fathers. 
The scenario is changing today but not totally. Just visit any village and you will still find people tagged or recognized by ther casts. "Ramu mochi", "Shyamu dhobi" etc. If ur in a slum in a city, then ur future is bright because the government has a lot of programs to rehabilitate the slums (the places have to look beautiful, clean, to show to foreign delegates right!!!) but very few and most importantly *SLOW* programs for villages.
Where options to earn a living is already limited how do u expect a system on merit. BUT, watever the monetary situation is , the brahmins or higher casts will always get more society value .

The "higher cast" thing is also stuck upon us. U just can't escape from it. You will forget but people won't. What will you do,? To how many will you explain all these logics about castism?



> When did I say that they are the only people? Naming a few is sufficient enough to point out the flaw in your argument. You would also find plenty of people who call themselves pandits or brahmins, act like goons and know nothing knowledgable!! Telling me about the villages again reflects how you are ignoring the discrimination by those who call themselves as upper class. Who the heck is upper class neways?



Castism was a theory long back, now its just there. You won't find your answers neither we will be able to prove it. You know why? Because of improvement in economical status in most of our population. Now its very hard to differentiate b/w a wealthy dalit/SC/ST and wealthy Brahmin, Thakurs, Rajputs etc.
But they are there. Oh, heck, when you will be marrying you will come to know more of these bullsh1ts. 



> Next, I am not equating economic backwardness with social backwardness, but in general that there is nothing like cast system defining and categorising as to who is "socially backward" and that economic backwardness is the "cause" of much of the "social backwardness".


U r so wrong. Either u've no money or u r uber rich that u don't know what money can do. Those who say money can't buy happines, I'll say they are partially wrong. It can't buy but it at least opens some doors (opportunities) to seek out happiness new new things.
money is everything.



> e.g, You are supposed to be a *scheduled cast, and earn in crores*. Do you think the society will give a damn about your "cast" or at the time of marriage?? You think the person can't change his/her cast even then? Try to check up the reality for it might knock you out.


Agreed. But I want to change the situation a bit. Suppose u r a *scheduled cast and don't earn in crores*, may be just 5k per month (at least 30%  Indian population would be more than happy to earn that kinda money a month). Now you tell me if ur cast affects your daily life.
The problem is that, U and Gautham both are talking about ideal cases or best case scenario, but let me remid u guys that ther are people (who we call people, janata, common man) who are just "people". Not everyone is vidyasagar, Ramanujan etc. So, what do they do. Stop living. Stop asking, just because u r ignoring.



> Forget the forum, lets talk about the nation. Again, are you thinking about social justice at the expense of merit? I disagree again, the primary aim of reservation only remains in "theory". Political exploitation of the illogical system, discrimination towards the meritorous students, cursing them (reserved ones) with a life long tag of "reservation" which "indentifies" them differently as inferior of some sort and decieving the companies are the only "realistic" consequences of it. So I think, even the "theoretical" part of reservation is fundamentally flawed!!



I've read this part 10 times...kuch samajh mein nahi aya...uske bad to agree or disagree




> First, the meaning and usage of the term "threshold" is flawed, for you know how people can show false income. You can even see how beggars try to act like really ill-fated carry a young child with them and when the whole drama is over, just try to peek at the corner they go to. You might be amazed how they wear totally new costume. For once I even saw a beggar at the back of a rickshaw in  tidy clothes.
> 
> And what if that supposedly or paper conirmed "below threshold", "reservation tagged" guy rides a bike, wears fancy jeans, woodland T-Shirts, nice pair of Ray Ban glasses and spiky hair cuts?? I think you really need to check out the reality.
> 
> I think you live in Kolkata. Come to Delhi to witness the "miracles" happening right in front of your own eyes!!!!!


Do you think all backword/beggars do this. U just can't blame all of them for the misdeeds of some *******s.
Its always there, isn't it? Loopholes of a very good proces and then exploition of it. As, Karni already said, is this enough reason to stop something. 



> Again your example is actually divorced from reality. Have you ever heard of people who got top ranks in IITs and DCE, but chose to go with DCE (Delhi college of engineering)? Its quite common actually. What will you call it, a slap to IIT?
> 
> The basic flaw here is that you are treating IITs as some ultimate prize. Have you ever heard of cases where IITians have been rejected because of their character flaws like high ego and unfriendliness? If not, then Believe me for its real!!



IIT has become into a brand, don't u think so. I always say. U r only what u read and teach urself. Not even the top school teach u anything if u don't want to learn. 
And brand value is always there. U believe or not, we have a mentality that if we are paying higher price for something, then we *MUST* be getting some exclusive features for that. Something special. Thats why a comparatively same model of POWER shoe prices lower than the ADIDAS one. (Just an example, now plz, plz don't bring up POWER and ADIDAS's life history, both of u always do that, example-ka bhi post-mortem kar ke dam lete ho).



> Ofcourse, every institution has its own criterias. You stated of IIT as if every other institute has criterias like IIT. Perhaps you would like to learn about "BIMTECH". There might be many others. Also, it is not necessary that a person who might be doing good in objective, be equally doing good in subjective which is the next stage. Like wise in many institutes there are further stages that involve GDPI. A person who is sound in aptitude and maths might not to be so fluent in English or friendly and confident  in case of interviews. Hence, institutes might not have the same criterias.
> 
> Also, Its quite common for people who excel in CBSE board exams ( @mhg, ignore it ) to perform bad later in graduation where they flunk and repeat semester exams. Whereas, there are others who were average, some who were considered as insolent brats in school perform excellent in graduation and post graduation.
> 
> *So how come the merit based system becomes a "victim"? *Thats how the system is and it gives you plenty of choices to opt from which might be different in many aspects. A student from a regional college might achieve high and a student from IIT might bite the dust.


A merit based system becomes victim when the elegible candidates (other than the one who got scholarship) can't just afford to enter. Now, if u say why not other colleges who provides same degree. Yes logically u r very correct.
But the problem is that the organizations where he/she is gonna apply for job won't give much value to the unknown chool/college's marks. R u getting me, ki aur bolu



> Another flaw in your argument is that, what does someone's past performance has to do with IIT entrance test? I think IITs treat everyone "equally" on the day of test and  "irrespective" of their cast, color, gender or wateva score (ofcors higher than 60) they scored etc. Just check out how many students in FITJEE, Pie , Vidya mandir etc study to just get above the criteria marks, i.e 60 or 65 whicheva it was, so as to qualify and then top IIT. While many others who perform well in CBSE, don't perform well in IIT. Past performance?
> 
> If the person cracks IIT, he is adding to his resume and to his "past performance". If not, it doesn't mean his resume can't be polished further. "Past performance" doesn't mean that those who were naughty in their skool time wouldn't shine in the future. And hence, your point of "past performance" is also flawed where it might be considered in some institutes and might not in others. Ofcourse, a past record of friendly nature has to be considered.


In our world "past performances" are called "experiences". If u've experience of 2yrs in a particular field u r expected to know at least 80% of that thing. (actually they want 150%  )

In case of education, one who has topped in CBSE would be expected to do *very good* in IIT entrance exam. 





> That again comes under a class of institutes which have "different" criteria.
> But neways, 'money power' is as evil as reservation and it again strengthens my point that *those who get through money power need not excel* coz everything subsequent is based on your own mettle and capabilities. e.g Rahul Gandhi, who entered through money power, failed at harvard and came back in around three months!!


True. But c, Rahul got a *chance/opportunity* to study in Harvard *ONLY BECAUSE OF MONEY. *So, money can actually do things. Don't u think so.
How can u tell that A,B or C won't pass Harvard if they were given a chance. 




> Further, you think all the general class students are at the same financial level? Some might travel via bus and some might travel via car to the college and so do many "lower cast" people. Some might have an unlimited internet while some might have the Rs.299 plan. "Equal terms" simply means to enable a financially weak student to have internet connection "to do his homework and practicals in spare time", to subsidise the price of books for him, may be to increase the number of library cards, to lower their fees to the level that is acceptable to them, like @rhitwick stated "make entrance exams Free of Cost for them", i.e try to give them all the facilities and initiatives that the general class students "ideally" njoy. *Ah well, 'financial problems' are an obstacle even for many of the general class students. Why are they exluded from the reservation then?*


First thanx, that at least u read my post. It seemed to me that no-one read it.
Then, its d main problem, we need a system to to tackle this issue. If you can solve this, all else would be solved.



> @rhitwick, my post is intended for you too. If the government can reward the terrorist like this spend millions during votes, and ill-planned structre of the roads which are then dugged again n again etc wasting both time and money, then I think relaxing the educational fee would really be nothin in comparison.


Agreed. Yehi to main bol raha hoon. Give same opportunity to everyone. Phir jo hoga so hoga.
But everyone should get same chance.

//ufff.......kitna bada post likhta hai tu.....


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## Faun (May 9, 2009)

Reservation is so cool that you need some nice fire to keep you from freezing 
*www.nilkanth.com/my-uploads/mandal%20commission%20delhi%20india%20fire.jpg


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## confused (May 9, 2009)

hey reservation is the coolest thing to have happened to the world since hitler.
im lovin' it. please make a rule that it exists for atleast another gazillion years, so that the next 1 zillion generations can get a freebie from the govt, while other poor souls toil away for their hard earned daily bread.
my 2 cents.


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## mediator (May 9, 2009)

rhitwick said:
			
		

> Ignorance is bliss...eh??


Yep for many it is. Verify yourself. May be ur statement is reflecting on u??




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Why do u want to forget. It won't help, it doesn't. U want or not, it will be there. For a day u forget that ur classmate is not from dat slum, will it help him in future or his/her family. We do what we do best, i.e. close our eyes and ears. Gandhi-ji ki teen bandar.


You decide, you want to keep calling them scheduled cast or not! You want a category in the society where there are "reserved" category students who are sneered as inferior? You are not actually diminishing the whole problem, but just 'redefining' the whole problem with a "real certificate" instead of a "human imagined" one as in the past.




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> If u've forgot ur history lessons, let me remind u how "born as lower cast" works. It started from "Barnasram pratha" which consisted of four colors or casts (Brahman, Kshatriya, Basishya (Businessman) and shudras (Cobbler, Laundry, Barber etc).
> Sons of the lower cast (here less baishya and more Shudras) people were always treated as of their fathers.
> The scenario is changing today but not totally. Just visit any village and you will still find people tagged or recognized by ther casts. "Ramu mochi", "Shyamu dhobi" etc. If ur in a slum in a city, then ur future is bright because the government has a lot of programs to rehabilitate the slums (the places have to look beautiful, clean, to show to foreign delegates right!!!) but very few and most importantly SLOW programs for villages.
> Where options to earn a living is already limited how do u expect a system on merit. BUT, watever the monetary situation is , the brahmins or higher casts will always get more society value .
> ...


@rhiwtick, did you really understand my previous post? I don't think you even "tried" to read the already debated "cast system" in other threads. Forget about history lessons, you don't even know "anything" about the misunderstood varna system.

So just to repeat for you , the four classes existed. BUT, they were "not by birth" but by "karma". In the modern times we have classes like scientists, teachers, labourers, shoe makers, cleaners etc. WHo is treating a class of politicians differently from that of scientist w.r.t to morality and ethics? Why? Why are we calling the politicians as cheap? Doesn't that mean all those who work are also getting insulted? WHo looks down upon labourers? Why is it that when an accident happens we take it for granted that we can slap if the other person is a 'rickshaw puller' etc or do verbaal battle if the other person is of our own "status"????? Is it written somewhere that you can treat those who are born in poor families as dirt? Why is it that police tends to act like a dog in front of the rich and on the other hand bullies the poor? Who is responsible?

Shouldn't we take action against police for such kind of misconduct? Do you know ANYTHING about realities regarding the police?

Neways, similar to the class of scientists, labourers the ancient system comprised of "Brahmana, Khatriya, Vaishya and Shudra". It is not necessary that the son of Brahmana be a brahmana. He may become a kshatriya or a Vaishya "DEPENDING' on his karma. Ofcourse in acient times brahmins were treated honorably for its natural to treat someone who has knowledge like that. BUT, todays "cast system" is NOT the varna system that is mentioned in scriptures! 

Do you really think that one who calls himself a brahmin really knows all kind of knowledge? Let alone the modern knowledge, they don't even possess the ancient knowledge of the scriptures. Pundits are often involved in sinful activities and many of the "lower cast" which you call as shudra, show will to acquire scientific and technical knowledge.

So if you read even a little about the "concept" behind the ancient varna system, you'll realise that the modern definition is absolutely "contradicting" to its ancient counterpart. Again who is responsible?

And hence just when the society starts to forget such a "nuisance" that is a part of "misunderstandings", politicians and people asking for reservation, refresh us with such kind of talks that consequently leads to the categorization of the most inappropriate form in the society. 




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> The "higher cast" thing is also stuck upon us. U just can't escape from it. You will forget but people won't. What will you do,? To how many will you explain all these logics about castism?


Do I really have to discuss this? 
If the logic of the "varna system" is actively made a part of NCERT like mughals etc, presented in media etc, then I believe people will not only throw "corrupt" pundits from their chair, but it will also help in reducing the cast based politics!!!




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Castism was a theory long back, now its just there. You won't find your answers neither we will be able to prove it. You know why? Because of improvement in economical status in most of our population. Now its very hard to differentiate b/w a wealthy dalit/SC/ST and wealthy Brahmin, Thakurs, Rajputs etc.
> But they are there. Oh, heck, when you will be marrying you will come to know more of these bullsh1ts.


Where exactly do you think I live?  In some remote corner of India? Buddy, I live in a place where all kinds of communities are happily coexisting and helping each other out, "discussing" this menace of terrorism and reservation "openly out loud" irrespective of their faiths, exceptions are always there!! Do you really think I go looking out for the history of my friends weather they are dalits or christians or SC/ST? You must be joooking real bad! 

And yes, when I'll marry, I will know what to do. Wisdom only rises, doesn't decrease IMO. You don't have to tell me or have to degrade my thoughts. 




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> U r so wrong. *Either u've no money or u r uber rich* that u don't know what money can do. Those who say money can't buy happines, I'll say they are partially wrong. It can't buy but it at least opens some doors (opportunities) to seek out happiness new new things.
> *money is everything.*


And your thoughts reflect your assumptions just like a theory is flawed on the basis of incorrect assumptions!! And for the second bold, isn't that what I stated? 

Money is becoming everything. IF you are rich, everyone asks you and if you are not, no one asks you, with exceptions in this case also reflected by some noble souls.



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Agreed. But I want to change the situation a bit.* Suppose u r a scheduled cast and don't earn in crores, may be just 5k per month (at least 30% Indian population would be more than happy to earn that kinda money a month). Now you tell me if ur cast affects your daily life.*


You see, the "attitude of people" is affected by the factor you yourself bring in i.e the factor of family finance! Whereas, the factor of "lower cast" has become almost "independent" of the consequences in the modern society and even in your own example!!!



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> The problem is that, U and Gautham both are talking about ideal cases or best case scenario, but let me remid u guys that ther are people (who we call people, janata, common man) who are just "people". Not everyone is vidyasagar, Ramanujan etc. So, what do they do. Stop living. Stop asking, just because u r ignoring.


And I thought you were being idealistic rather than realistic!



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> I've read this part 10 times...kuch samajh mein nahi aya...uske bad to agree or disagree


samajhne waali baat yeh hai mere sher ki, in "trying" to remove categories you are actually forming new categories and redefining categories with "certificates" on it this time which is far worse. In trying to remove discrimination, you are creating "new kinds" of discrminiation and "ignoring" the previous one. You are not reducing the scale of the problem, but simply magnifying it!!! 




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Do you think all backword/beggars do this. U just can't blame all of them for the misdeeds of some *******s.
> Its always there, isn't it? Loopholes of a very good proces and then exploition of it. As, Karni already said, is this enough reason to stop something.


Like I said, come to Delhi and witness the miracles where the blind gets new eyes every day and undergoes countless cycles of becoming blind and eye gifted, where one legged creature on the footpath become two legged at the end of the day, poor woman who had milk bottle and a child in her hands now rides at the back of a rickshaw. Woah, India (atleast delhi) surely undergoes recession and progression everyday!! 



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> IIT has become into a brand, don't u think so. I always say. U r only what u read and teach urself. Not even the top school teach u anything if u don't want to learn.
> And brand value is always there. U believe or not, we have a mentality that if we are paying higher price for something, then we MUST be getting some exclusive features for that. Something special. Thats why a comparatively same model of POWER shoe prices lower than the ADIDAS one. (Just an example, now plz, plz don't bring up POWER and ADIDAS's life history, both of u always do that, example-ka bhi post-mortem kar ke dam lete ho).


I replied to karnivore and your reply is disconnected from the point. But yeah they have become brands IMO. 




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> A merit based system becomes victim when the elegible candidates (other than the one who got scholarship) can't just afford to enter. Now, if u say why not other colleges who provides same degree. Yes logically u r very correct.
> But the problem is that the organizations where he/she is gonna apply for job won't give much value to the unknown chool/college's marks. R u getting me, ki aur bolu


"Financial help" was the core point of my previous post. I think you really need to read it again carefully this time. I know u read my post at night, coz an eye in the E-sky was lookin upon u. 




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> In our world "past performances" are called "experiences". If u've experience of 2yrs in a particular field u r expected to know at least 80% of that thing. (actually they want 150%  )
> 
> In case of education, one who has topped in CBSE would be expected to do very good in IIT entrance exam.


Yep, he is only expected, but doesn't always do. Strange reality hun? Have you ever considered the "nature" of CBSE exams where 70% of the paper is repeated w.r.t to IITs exam where the paper is different everytime in terms of questions and number of questions and authorities giving 'surprises', to think upon your logic and reality?????




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> True. But c, Rahul got a chance/opportunity to study in Harvard ONLY BECAUSE OF MONEY. So, money can actually do things. Don't u think so.
> How can u tell that A,B or C won't pass Harvard if they were given a chance.


Exactly! Are the passing marks diff for A,B. or C. Your post again reflect my view of "equal competition"!!




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Agreed. Yehi to main bol raha hoon. Give same opportunity to everyone. Phir jo hoga so hoga.
> But everyone should get same chance.


Lol, we post like an "interpreter" instead of a "compiler" (computers lingo)


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## karnivore (May 9, 2009)

mediator said:
			
		

> You know I didn't even know whether the person sitting in my class was a scheduled cast. For 3 consecutive years I was ignorant of his background. A few people having surnames like "Singh" and "Kumar", and later I found they were scheduled cast and entered through reservation. Not every "Singh" and "Kumar" is scheduled cast. I didn't even know what a scheduled cast was at that time. Who is responsible for such an an enlightenment?
> 
> Just when the society starts to forget such bullcraps, we are injected with a poison, that yes, something like this is there. So I guess you answered yourself. Removing such kind of illogical reservation would be the first step to bring these people into mainstream!!!


  This is by far the most bizarre argument that I’ve ever come across. What you are basically saying, is that being ignorant of social issues/environment is actually a bliss. You are actually accusing a segment of society, for showing the ugly face of the reality to that segment, that was blissfully oblivious of the evils of casteism. I am speechless.

  You think, just because, you (I understand that “you” represent a part of society, so ensconced, so cushioned, so pampered in their lives, they didn’t know that their so called perfect society is actually a façade) were not aware of casteism, it didn’t exist. More than 90% of our population do not reside in that society. They reside in a society where a school teacher takes it upon himself to purify his students from the touch of dalits by sprinkling cow urine, a society which registered 109,505 direct cases of atrocities against dalits during 1994-2004, a society, where, one has to walk for miles to access a well, in spite of a well being present in his village, a society, where the shadow of a dalit is worse that cow dung. Wishing these away, is not going to make these disappear.

  But I guess, you are correct. Lets sweep the dust under the carpet and pretend nothing happened, ever. If I can’t see, it isn’t there. That’s all matters doesn’t it.


> Wrong again!! First, religion has nothing to do with cast system as so conspicuous from your "born as lower cast" clause. Its all a part of human imagination. Second, what do you mean by "are stuck with it"? I thought you knew how people change their surnames these days so easily just like they can change their faiths. So I guess nobody is "stuck" with it. Third, instead of punishing the self-proclaimed upper class people for discrimination against lower caste, you are adding fuel to the fire by discriminating against the meritorous? How sane is that?
> 
> Justice won't be brought until you punish those who do injustice towards the weak or discriminate against meritorous students.


  Firstly, caste is a direct result of “brahminism”.  There is no two opinion about it. Second, casteism is not just about name or surnames. It is much deeper than that. Just by changing name one doesn’t change his caste. Indian Govt. officially doesn’t recognize caste. Therefore changing of caste, legally doesn’t even arise. If you are born as “untouchable” you just continue to be an “untouchable”. This is the most naïve view of the problem. If it were so easy to change caste just by changing names, there wouldn’t have been any dalit today, and they wouldn’t prefer to convert en mass. Third, the whole argument of “discriminating against the meritorious” is a myth. (I have already explained)


> When did I say that they are the only people? Naming a few is sufficient enough to point out the flaw in your argument. You would also find plenty of people who call themselves pandits or brahmins, act like goons and know nothing knowledgable!! Telling me about the villages again reflects how you are ignoring the discrimination by those who call themselves as upper class. Who the heck is upper class neways?


  Rubbish. Naming a few among almost a quarter of our population, majority of whom live below poverty level, doesn’t even come close to being an example at all. Mentioning one exception among millions of sufferers is actually a mockery of the sufferings of these people.

  Telling you about villages, was my way of saying that the crux of the issue is not within the city limits, about begins from where the city ends. You are basing all your arguments on the basis of your personal experiences within your city, Delhi. Delhi officially doesn’t even have the Schedule Tribes (ST), or Other Backward Class (OBC), and you expect to understand their plight. Give us a break.



> Next, I am not equating economic backwardness with social backwardness, but in general that there is nothing like cast system defining and categorising as to who is "socially backward" and that economic backwardness is the "cause" of much of the "social backwardness".
> 
> e.g, You are supposed to be a scheduled cast, and earn in crores. Do you think the society will give a damn about your "cast" or at the time of marriage?? You think the person can't change his/her cast even then? Try to check up the reality for it might knock you out.


  Are you really saying what you are saying or am I just seeing things here. You don’t even know, why SC/ST and OBCs are called socially backward. You have no idea what is socially backward and what is economically backward. Not having purchasing power, is economical backwardness. Not having the right to purchase*, is social backwardness. What use is of purchasing power, when you don’t have power to purchase. 

  Where exactly are these crorepati dalits. I keep hearing, but I don’t see them. Where are they. And just how many are there, as percentage to the total population, as percentage to the total dalit population, as percentage to all the other crorepatis. Just look at 1991 and 2001 census data, and be ashamed.

  You are basing your entire argument on exceptions. Exception, to you, is the rule, not a proof of the rule.

  * “Right to purchase” is a collective term that I have used to denote, the rights that a dalit has to forgo just by taking birth as one.


> Forget the forum, lets talk about the nation. Again, are you thinking about social justice at the expense of merit? I disagree again, the primary aim of reservation only remains in "theory". Political exploitation of the illogical system, discrimination towards the meritorous students, cursing them (reserved ones) with a life long tag of "reservation" which "indentifies" them differently as inferior of some sort and decieving the companies are the only "realistic" consequences of it. So I think, even the "theoretical" part of reservation is fundamentally flawed!!


  Merit ? What is this mythical merit in Indian context ? How is it measured ? By means of an examination ? Lets bust the bubble of so called merit. I will use West Bengal as case study, because I am more familiar with WB.

  In the late 80s and early 90s, during my times, there used to be a total of about 2500 engineering seats, all State Govt. sponsored. I kid you not. So if you were the 2501th student and wished to pursue engineering as career, you had only one option. Go to South, take admission in private engineering colleges. Cut to future, 2009. Today, there are close to 19,000 seats, mostly in private sector (set to increase by another 13,000). The govt sponsored seats have also increased. In any case, now, if you are 19,000th ranked, you still get to pursue engineering in West Bengal. 

  How shall I rank this guy as. Meritorious(?) or average. Now, how is this guy any different, from a dalit, who is scoring equal to him. We are willing to accept, this 19,000th ranked guy as an engineer, without fuss, without questioning if his mediocrity will put the nation at jeopardy, but if a guy scoring same as him, takes admission to a better college than him, through the quota system, all hell is supposed to break loose. Suddenly, this mythical merit becomes the key, although technically both of them will be engineers starting almost at the same level, right from the bottom of the corporate pecking order. Why ? Because, this OC guy couldn’t get admission to a better college. (In other states, this becomes even more acute, because the seats are almost twice or thrice as much WB)

  The issue is never merit. It has never been. This argument of merit is a ruse to cover a more sinister mindset, something that we take for granted – we, the upper class, deserve the best. We conveniently bring out the issue of merit, when we see a dalit taking admission in a better college, forgetting, a guy, probably worse than his merit, is coming into the same profession as the dalit is, albeit through a lesser college, and will be assimilated in the same society, which is supposed to get effected by both their mediocrity. But since some people are more equal than others, mediocrity of the dalit is supposed to effect the society more.

  Lets look at some of the universities of US, the land of dreams. Many here, doesn’t even know, that universities like Harvard, MIT etc. have a system in place, which requires much less SAT scores from American Indians, Hispanics and Blacks, compared to the others. It is called Affirmative action. Now that you know, Harvard or MIT promote mediocrity, how many are willing to get admission there. My wild guess is ALL.

  The so called curse that you are talking of, is the exact social injustice that we are talking of. 


> First, the meaning and usage of the term "threshold" is flawed, for you know how people can show false income. You can even see how beggars try to act like really ill-fated carry a young child with them and when the whole drama is over, just try to peek at the corner they go to. You might be amazed how they wear totally new costume. For once I even saw a beggar at the back of a rickshaw in tidy clothes.
> 
> And what if that supposedly or paper conirmed "below threshold", "reservation tagged" guy rides a bike, wears fancy jeans, woodland T-Shirts, nice pair of Ray Ban glasses and spiky hair cuts?? I think you really need to check out the reality.
> 
> I think you live in Kolkata. Come to Delhi to witness the "miracles" happening right in front of your own eyes!!!!!


  Once, just once in your life, think of the 90% of your fellow countrymen who don’t live in cities. If your argument of “threshold” is to be believed, there can be no criteria for any economic “relaxation” that you are so talking of. Now tell us, how do you propose to implement your economic “relaxation” without a “threshold”.


> Again your example is actually divorced from reality.


  Come on. Your reality is based on your city living alone. Mine is based on tiny tours to the interiors of rural India, where, unfortunately 90% of our population live.


> Have you ever heard of people who got top ranks in IITs and DCE, but chose to go with DCE (Delhi college of engineering)? Its quite common actually. What will you call it, a slap to IIT?
> 
> The basic flaw here is that you are treating IITs as some ultimate prize. Have you ever heard of cases where IITians have been rejected because of their character flaws like high ego and unfriendliness? If not, then Believe me for its real!!
> 
> ...


  Missed the forest to hit the tree. You have no clue of what I was saying.

  The remainder of the post is just uninformed tripe. You have shown complete lack of understanding of the issue at hand. You think Mayawati represents a quarter of our population, you think a corepati dalit or two, with ray-ban glasses, living within the sanctuary of a city, negate the plight of those in the rural areas, and therefore the whole reservation thing. I can guarantee, you have no idea of Mandal Commission report, or what census of 1991/2001 say.

  Anyway…


----------



## karnivore (May 9, 2009)

mediator said:


> So just to repeat for you , the four classes existed. BUT, they were "not by birth" but by "karma".


I don't see any mention of "karma" in Manusmriti...other than an indirect reference to birth.
*i180.photobucket.com/albums/x31/trash609/8.jpg


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## IITian (May 9, 2009)

Those who were discriminated against in the past deserve to get some extra privilege for their uplift, but reservation in educational institutes is definitely not the way to go.
In my college, I've never came across even a single category guy who actually deserved reservation.Almost all of them are the ones who have burned their a$$ for 2-3 years in some coaching institute.Tell me why did they deserve to get a seat when their JEE score was half of that of others?

Let me tell what happens when such undeserving people gets into premier institutes through backdoor(read reserved seats).They never performs upto the level of others and ends up flunking the exams or getting poor grades(i.e. if they are really hard working).
They ends up repeating semesters and either gets expelled or comes into depression, and in the worst case, hangs themselves.This is the actual reason for increasing number of suicide attempts in IITs.Tell me how reservation helped the life of one such person?Or how it helped the life of some Ramu Mochi who is a damn intelligent guy but is still sewing boots in a remote town because his father used to do the same?

The need of the hour is to provide quality basic education to economically backward category/non-category people so that they may come to the same level of competition.

And one more thing that i'd like to state is that the caste system is slowly fading away even in villages.Inter caste love marriages have become quite common there(Dont ask me to go to some interior village of UP, i've lived for sufficently long time in one.)


----------



## MetalheadGautham (May 9, 2009)

Regardless of how much you support reservation purely on caste basis, it will NEVER have effect on the REAL downtrodden - the dalits of UP and Bihar etc as karnivore mentioned. Why ? Because there are only 8000 seats in IITs. Out of it, if you reserve 4000, you can be sure that all of them will go to the so-called lower caste people from the civilised parts of India, like Bangalore Urban, Mumbai, etc where casteism isn't even existing among the Y-Generation.

What happens then ? Casteism is actually CREATED here thanks to disgruntled students who felt cheated when their best buddy who is a dalit got selected to IIT scoring 160 marks while they didn't qualify scoring 170 marks.

Don't you get the point ? What the government is doing is messing with the minds of the liberal modern and composite urban society to allevate problems of medieval backward societies found in bihar, uttar pradesh, etc, while at the same time what they do has next to no effect !

Look at government jobs. As karnivore pointed out, SC/ST/OBCs have come to "mainstream" by getting representation in government jobs. Is working for the government supposed to be called "mainstream" when those who work are almost always the rich and affluent "creamy-layer" among the SC/ST/OBC community ?

You say there is the "social" factor involved here. Its "social backwardness" which is prevalent on SC/ST/OBCs. But more often than not, this backwardness is a result of educational and economic backwardness. No I am not talking about the fact that these people don't go to IITs. I am talking of education at grassroots level. Compulsory education upto even 10th standard is enough to enlighten these backward people (here backward people includes both the oppressed classes and the aggressors since both are backward - the former labelled falsely by the govt and the later in TRUE sense).

And economic backwardness can be removed by helping people with merit-cum-means scholarships. Because a high ranker with less money shouldn't be denied education by the govt of India due to his not having enough money. This kind of "reservation" as karnivore terms it, is much more fair than reservation because of a person's parents' identity.

As much as it seems "fair" to people with oppressed ancestors, its equally "unfair" to people who have nothing to do with oppression and two wrongs don't make a right.


----------



## Liverpool_fan (May 9, 2009)

karnivore said:


> At least we agree on one thing. I get the feeling you are realizing what I am trying to say.
> 
> The rest of your post asks the question of the utility of reservation, if basic facilities are not provided to the dalits.
> 
> ...


You say that "Reservation is a 'tool' to provide oppurtunity for lower castes to come to the fore and change their social standing" I wonder how.
Let us see. 
Even in this modern times, it is unfortunate people are still being socially discrimated, especially Dalits. They are still not denied to visit temples, or go to school or visit social gatherings. Now as a result they are unable to actually have schooling and in fact the few who do end of dropping and are reduced to continue doing the menial jobs their fore fathers were doing/forced to do. Now what the Government does? It's puts up the 'messianic'[] reservation system which they claim will bring the socially discrimated lot to the fore (much like as you say). Now whay happens? There are seats reserved in educational institutions, government jobs, etc. for them. But to reach that level, there are certain minimum qualifications every person would require which is basically proper schooling and training. But the fact is that the socially discrimated lot get nowhere near as many facilities as economically/socially "higher" class of people and the society and no way they can actually compete with those lot at that time. What most of them end up? They end up without even fundamental education and care and they remain a long shot even from actually taking benefit of the reservation system. 
It's just like a 4 feet boy given a box full of treasure 12 feet above the ground without the tool to actually get the treasure.

A few of them which survive and are able to take up reservation inspite of their poor background, what they end up with? They end up finding they are unable to compete with their counterparts who received much better fundamental education than them and end up dropping out or even worse ending up killing themshelves or take up bad path in life. And the remaining who actually are DESERVING and SUCCEED in taking full benefit of reservation is sadly too small a number.


Who actually among the "discrimated" classes take benefit? It's actually the sons and daughters of the parents who already have a safe economic and social status and who derserve no more reservation than a Brahmin or Kshatriya.
In a nutshell those who actually deserve to get benefit of reservation do not have the tools to actually take gain of reservation to come to the fore while those who actually are already on the fore have their candies and cream.



> I am sick and tired of this kind faulty arguments. First, no system is full proof, and there will be those who will exploit every such system. Rapes and murders have not ceased in spite of having Criminal Code and severe punishment. Shall we then abolish all laws, because, hey, someone is taking advantage of it.


Quite a lame and generic argument. And dude there is somehing called a system with some faults and a faulty system, period.



> As with poor brahmins. As per 1991 census, there were 1382.23 Lakh SCs, comprising of a whopping 16.48 % of total population and 677.58 Lakh STs, comprising of 8.08 % of total population. In other words, a quarter of out entire population belongs to the group that would not like to touch us. And I must loose sleep over what a minuscule population perceives as discrimination against them.
> 
> No buddy, I am not laughing. I am too disappointed to even smile.


lolwut? You make no sense at all.


> Another uninformed comment.


er? How? Care to elaborate? Or that you have no argument? 



> REVENGE is too strong a word. But you are entitled to your opinion. And yes you can laugh at my bitterness. Being ignorant about social issues, has its benefits.
> 
> Hey Psst...if I hadn't been an atheist, I would have probably introduced myself as what you call a brahmin.


I don't give a damn about your caste, creed, religion, region, or language. But I give damn to the hatred you exhibit by saying - "they must repay"


----------



## mediator (May 9, 2009)

karnivore said:
			
		

> This is by far the most bizarre argument that I’ve ever come across. What you are basically saying, is that being ignorant of social issues/environment is actually a bliss. You are actually accusing a segment of society, for showing the ugly face of the reality to that segment, that was blissfully oblivious of the evils of casteism. I am speechless.


Wrong again! I'm simply saying that you are keeping the "evils of casteism" alive by telling the world again and again of  "what" the casteism is, by magnifying the distortions that it is by "birth", cultivating a healthy ground for dirty politics and mocking meritocracy and yes, again forming categories of who are reserved/privileged and who are general/unprivileged! So instead if "realising" the root problem of the whole issue and punishing the culprits, you are actually "ignoring" the culprits and discriminating against the meritorous candidates? I'm speechless and this is the most bizarre form of justice (if it even comes under the banner of justice) I have ever seen!




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> You think, just because, you (I understand that “you” represent a part of society, so ensconced, so cushioned, so pampered in their lives, they didn’t know that their so called perfect society is actually a façade) were not aware of casteism, it didn’t exist. More than 90% of our population do not reside in that society. They reside in a society *where a school teacher takes it upon himself to purify his students from the touch of dalits by sprinkling cow urine, a society which registered 109,505 direct cases of atrocities against dalits during 1994-2004,* a society, where, one has to walk for miles to access a well, in spite of a well being present in his village, a society, where the shadow of a dalit is worse that cow dung. Wishing these away, is not going to make these disappear.


I simply don't understand why your logic and talks of justice are divorced from the action and instead stresses on reaction? Your bold stated part talks loud and clear how much you are ignoring the actions alone.

So what you are saying that in modern society if a policeman rapes a girl, then policeman should be ignored and even the steps to "eradicate" such sin also should be ignored BUT steps should be taken for "some theoretical" improvement of girl? How bizarre?? 

Don't you think that some laws should be present and implemented actively to "punish" that teacher (in ur example) or to prevent such crimes from happening in the first place? We don't want to "just wish these away", but "to actively work for the eradication of it".

You are just pointing towards a mere wish, while I'm telling you how to act with steps already stated. And these steps are not too difficult to implement !!!!




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> I don't see any mention of "karma" in Manusmriti...other than an indirect reference to birth


I wonder how many times I have talked about Manusmriti and Vedas in one post and sourced the reads......But  there you go....

*www.hinduwisdom.info/articles_hinduism/283.htm

Read it, understand it and tell me in your own plain words what you understand by it. So the misunderstandings and distortions were there and many fell and still falling victims to it!







			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Firstly, caste is a direct result of “brahminism”. There is no two opinion about it. Second, casteism is not just about name or surnames. It is much deeper than that. *Just by changing name one doesn’t change his caste.* Indian Govt. officially doesn’t recognize caste. Therefore changing of caste, legally doesn’t even arise. *If you are born as “untouchable” you just continue to be an “untouchable”.* This is the most naïve view of the problem. *If it were so easy to change caste just by changing names, there wouldn’t have been any dalit today, and they wouldn’t prefer to convert en mass*. Third, the whole argument of “discriminating against the meritorious” is a myth. (I have already explained)


Stating as "Brahminism", again tells about your ignorance on the "varna system". I don't know how much you really know about Hinduism, but do you know Parshuram's story? The era when Kshatriyas tried to establish their total control? What will you call it, "kshatriyism"? And so today I guess, lower casts are njoying all the luxuries and merit takes a backseat. What is this? Shudraism? 

So, you are wrong yet again! Cast is not a direct result of "brahminism", but how misunderstandings have happened. Even many theories of science are treated as facts as we discussed. Who is responsible?

If dalits can convert to christianity by showing the ills of cast system by the missionaries, then why can't they changed their cast? The lines in bolds again show that you are far far from reality!!

The third bold is like, in the presence of science and modern thoughts, the superstitions and all the marriages of children to dogs and frogs should have been ended. Do you care to elaborate why haven't they ended???

Do you really know how close and narrow minded world the remote villages live in? Again your argument that "it should have ended" is far from reality.

The only solution of both the problem lies in awareness of the true concept of the varna system, science etc.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> But I guess, you are correct. Lets sweep the dust under the carpet and pretend nothing happened, ever. If I can’t see, it isn’t there. That’s all matters doesn’t it.


I think thats the only solution that you are proposing, i.e to ignore the actions and magnify the evil reactions!!



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Rubbish. Naming a few among almost a quarter of our population, *majority of whom live below poverty level,* doesn’t even come close to being an example at all. Mentioning one exception among millions of sufferers is actually a mockery of the sufferings of these people.
> 
> Telling you about villages, was my way of saying that the crux of the issue is not within the city limits, about begins from where the city ends. You are basing all your arguments on the basis of your personal experiences within your city, Delhi. *Delhi officially doesn’t even have the Schedule Tribes (ST), or Other Backward Class (OBC), and you expect to understand their plight. Give us a break.*


The problem is that you are defining the sufferings on the basis of cast which is itself flawed. The "majority" that you stated also comprises of brahmins, kshatriyas etc, which I guess that you agree on that they suffer. I hope u understand that majority that lives under the poverty line isn't exclusive of brahmins and kshatriyas.

Now, the second bold again strengthens my point, i.e to eradicate the root cause of the problem and hence I stated Delhi. Do you really think I never went outside Delhi???? 
But you know, our suffering is that we are "made to understand" as to what the "OBC, SC/ST" is by the crappy reservation system and to generate a mental picture of human stupidity. What worse is that we get to witness the "reactions" (i.e reservation) on that stupidity which isn't concentrated on the root causes, but just to blast meritocracy from the face of earth. And so we see one stupidity is being encountered by another ignoring the root problem as to "who" started the discrimination, let alone the punishments!! 




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> *Are you really saying what you are saying or am I just seeing things here. You don’t even know, why SC/ST and OBCs are called socially backward.* You have no idea what is socially backward and what is economically backward. *Not having purchasing power, is economical backwardness. Not having the right to purchase*, is social backwardness. What use is of purchasing power, when you don’t have power to purchase. *
> 
> Where exactly are these crorepati dalits. I keep hearing, but I don’t see them. Where are they. And just how many are there, as percentage to the total population, as percentage to the total dalit population, as percentage to all the other crorepatis. Just look at 1991 and 2001 census data, and be ashamed.
> 
> ...


Forget about me, but I think I'm seeing what I expected to see that you are again going after the "ideal" definitions and scenarios that in reality are contridictory to its purpose!! You know recently supreme court ordered to list and define "who all are OBCs". Do you know why it stated that??

Just by repeatedly stating that "SC/St, OBC" etc are backward classes, you are actually drawing yourself away from the reality and picturing the reality as a kind of myth.

The last bold again shouts that you are ignoring the root cause. Who is supposed to give them the right? Who is stealing their right? If someone is denying them their right, then who is supposed to get them their right back? If a police man refuses to log complaint then who is guilty and what action should be taken and against whome?

And then, going by your "ideal" definition, I guess, all those OBCs and SC/STs who ride bike in colleges with fancy and faded jeans, "should have 'ideally' been denied the  right to purchase* by the higher class"?? How did they purchase the bikes and all the fancies then? 




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> *Where exactly are these crorepati dalits. I keep hearing, but I don’t see them. Where are they.* And just how many are there, as percentage to the total population, as percentage to the total dalit population, as percentage to all the other crorepatis. Just look at 1991 and 2001 census data, and be ashamed.
> 
> You are basing your entire argument on exceptions. Exception, to you, is the rule, not a proof of the rule.


Personally, ( yes in Delhi ) I know many. To show you an example, I guess, again an exception, Mayawati is enough, let alone her dalit "relatives" and "friends"!! You think her blood relations won't be rich?  Open the TV and watch her live making her own idols. Its not a golden rule that I'm presenting what seems like an exception to you.

And I humbly request you to goto all the colleges in your constituency and get a list of the so called "socially backward classes" yourself and match if your idealistic words match the reality. I bet you'll be shocked!!

Forget the reality, even if a "percentage of rich dalits" is less w.r.t to total no. of dalits, then also don't you think the merit is being discriminated and "equal competition" being reduced?? 



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> *“Right to purchase” is a collective term that I have used to denote, the rights that a dalit has to forgo just by taking birth as one.


And law should be used to make sure that .. 
A. they are not denied their right, and 
B. Everyone gets "equal" rights 
C. The discriminator be punished appropriately!!




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Merit ? What is this mythical merit in Indian context ? How is it measured ? By means of an examination ? Lets bust the bubble of so called merit. I will use West Bengal as case study, because I am more familiar with WB.
> 
> In the late 80s and early 90s, during my times, there used to be a total of about 2500 engineering seats, all State Govt. sponsored. I kid you not. So if you were the 2501th student and wished to pursue engineering as career, you had only one option. Go to South, take admission in private engineering colleges. Cut to future, 2009. Today, there are close to 19,000 seats, mostly in private sector (set to increase by another 13,000). The govt sponsored seats have also increased. In any case, now, if you are 19,000th ranked, you still get to pursue engineering in West Bengal.
> 
> How shall I rank this guy as. Meritorious(?) or average. *Now, how is this guy any different, from a dalit, who is scoring equal to him.* We are willing to accept, this 19,000th ranked guy as an engineer, without fuss, without questioning if his mediocrity will put the nation at jeopardy, but if a guy scoring same as him, takes admission to a better college than him, through the quota system, all hell is supposed to break loose. Suddenly, this mythical merit becomes the key, although technically both of them will be engineers starting almost at the same level, right from the bottom of the corporate pecking order. Why ? Because, this OC guy couldn’t get admission to a better college. (In other states, this becomes even more acute, because the seats are almost twice or thrice as much WB)


Your example has already assumed that 
1. the guy is a dalit.
2. He ranked beyong 19000

Now,
1. How many dalits exist below 19000 ranks?
2. If there exist dalits below 19000 rank, then why are you only presenting the 19000+ dalit? And why are you defining him a dalit instead of just calling him a student? Were the lower cast students really denied a right like admission to the college, or does your example "still" has another assumption to make that "all the socially backward casts below 19000  were denied admission"???? 

In case of a tie of marks between two students, ofcourse, there, the "past performance" might play some judgement or perhaps a GD?

Watch....
*video.aol.in/video-detail/bihar-village-churns-out-100-iit-toppers/157657552

Read....
*www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080052137

Now try to find out as to how many of them were "denied" the right!




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> *The issue is never merit. It has never been. This argument of merit is a ruse to cover a more sinister mindset, something that we take for granted – we, the upper class, deserve the best.* We conveniently bring out the issue of merit, when we see a dalit taking admission in a better college, forgetting, a guy, probably worse than his merit, is coming into the same profession as the dalit is, albeit through a lesser college, and will be assimilated in the same society, which is supposed to get effected by both their mediocrity. But since some people are more equal than others, mediocrity of the dalit is supposed to effect the society more.
> 
> Lets look at some of the universities of US, the land of dreams. Many here, doesn’t even know, that universities like Harvard, MIT etc. have a system in place, which requires much less SAT scores from American Indians, Hispanics and Blacks, compared to the others. It is called Affirmative action. Now that you know, Harvard or MIT promote mediocrity, how many are willing to get admission there. My wild guess is ALL.


That remains your own "belief" and yet again you are not talking of "who is affecting the dalit", but simply saying "dalit is affected"! 

Talking about Harvard, all I would say is that I would favour "equal competition" anyday instead of feeling high by going through some illogical and corrupt form of admission that I won't even call a competition. 

You know why IITs and IIMs and corporates are against reservation? Its all about quality and by that it doesn't mean OBC/SC/St etc lack quality and it surely doesn't mean that these institutions are against the poor or the so called "socially backward class" that you point to.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> The so called curse that you are talking of, is the exact social injustice that we are talking of.


And what exactly happens to a middle class or rich guy who gets beyond 19000 rank? A social injustice for him too? So, Who denied them the right? The IITs and IIMs treated everyone "equally" and "gave" them "equal chance". 

"Denying" is certainly not the word I would use. It would be most appropriate to call it a "denial" if they were denied of taking the exam itself. Don't mind but I guess the number of contradictions and flaws in your posts have gone weigh too much now. 




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Once, just once in your life, think of the 90% of your fellow countrymen who don’t live in cities. If your argument of “threshold” is to be believed, there can be no criteria for any economic “relaxation” that you are so talking of. Now tell us, how do you propose to implement your economic “relaxation” without a “threshold”.


My post was clear enough. But neways, read the story of the IIt again
*www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080052137

Like I said, the concept of "threshold" is itself flawed and misused. Financial relaxation should be given after verifying the income sources of the family be in cash or in assets. Desperate measures can be taken for the desperate ones, lighter measures for those who need a few facilties etc. And its not something that cannot be accomplished!!



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Come on. Your reality is based on your city living alone. Mine is based on tiny tours to the interiors of rural India, where, unfortunately 90% of our population live.


Nope! 




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Missed the forest to hit the tree. You have no clue of what I was saying.
> 
> The remainder of the post is just uninformed tripe. You have shown complete lack of understanding of the issue at hand. You think Mayawati represents a quarter of our population, you think a corepati dalit or two, with ray-ban glasses, living within the sanctuary of a city, *negate the plight of those in the rural areas*, and therefore the whole reservation thing. I can guarantee, you have no idea of Mandal Commission report, or what census of 1991/2001 say.


Again you are "not removing the plight", but simply creating "more plight".


So,

A. You have a distorted idea of the varna system.
B. The reservation you favour creates "certified" categories which are far more dangerous than the human imagined ones which were a byproduct of misunderstandings.
C. You are "ignoring" the root cause of the problem which needs to be eradicated and ignoring the discriminator in ALL YOUR EXAMPLES.
D. The fundamentally flawed and self-contradicting reservation itself discriminates against "equal competition" and the spirit of merit, which generates a spirit of competition and a thirst among ALL THE STUDENTS to STUDY and do well.
E. CBSE course which consists of 70% questions repeated, is a part of "past performance" and not even anywhere near to the IITs paper which consists of "surprises" in terms of nature of questions and number of questions.
F. You have taken "biased" assumptions like, the 19000+ rank might be a dalit while totally ignoring the number of dalits within 19000 rank. Like I said, inappropriate assumptions lead to a false theory.
G. You are confusing non-selection (during admission round) with denial.
H. You think Mayawati and others are the only rich dalits which reflects as to how much you need to sample the colleges and gather your own "real" data instead of "ideal definitions".


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## way2jatin (May 9, 2009)

Which mad person has vote Yes??


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## rhitwick (May 10, 2009)

@Mediator, dude, reading ur posts it seems that U think castism doesn't exist, and actually is encouraging this castism by providing reservations.

No thats not the case. I just want you tell one thing, U believe that a perfect society exists where castism doesn't happen. No it isn't the case. Its there, very much there. It just won't vanish only because some people want ignore it. Just hiding ur head in sand won't save u from the lion.

And, every example Karni gave, is true. They were very much hyped in media and a lot of discussions followed. Do u think those incidents are some heat of the moment incident?? No, it just protrays the truth that such kinda things are practiced everyday at some villages. 
How many of them do we come to know that we would protest or punish (in the case dat teacher, he was punished though, media kisi ko chodti hai kaya?)

Yes, I agree that the true meaning of rservation is now passe, people are just making benefit of its loopholes.
And, the change u r talking about is happening but the change is not pan India. Its limited to City and its suburbs only. After that it just vanishes.
Just go to any remote village and observe their lifestyle for 2-3 days. U'l come to know things for sure.
Those cast related rituals arte very much practised in villages. U go against any of them and peoplw would look at u in awe!!! Its like "sehar se aya hai to kaya, kuch bhi karega kaya, apne gao ki riwaj/pratha hai yeh sab". Yes, u'ld come to hear this. 
Those guys just won't think how could a higher class person can drink water from a mochi etc.
Let me tell u some examples:-
>U know in orissa lower caste people are STILL not allowed to enter some temples. I can't recall the exact name but I read in a newspaper article that in Temple wall some holes are created for them for "darshan".
>U know in some villages diferent banks are used of same pond for diff. cast people
>U know there was (and in some villages still present) a rule that prohibits lower caste people to read books. 

and many many nore....


One more info I want to give you that, ur cast is stuck to u since ur birth. Yes again I tell u that its from birth. The first time castism was introduced it was based on profession but from next generation of the beginner (i.e the son of very first cobbler) its from birth. If u born in a cobbler family u r a cobbler.
Newton's First law applies here. And here the external force is "education" which can divert the direction.


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## mediator (May 10, 2009)

@rhitwick, You misunderstood me.

Casteism is very much alive and I believe I might be knowing more than you. But what I want to say is simply that in reality even the "modern definition of cast system" is not always true. I know how dalits are treated, but I think you don't know that many dalits are not "financially weak" and todays time is such that if a person is financially sound and doing well, then he is asked for and if a person is poor nobody asks him. Some even think they can slap the poor. What I want to say is that the finance factor "overrides" the "cast factor" in many cases, IMO, most of the cases!!

All the examples you put forward are nuthing new to me. Thats a reality! And what I am saying is that 'reservation' is not eradicating the "root cause of the WHOLE PROBLEM", but simply keeping alive the tradition and creating more categories like I said. You think dalits will be spared from bullies and discrimination just by reservation? Think again! Even after their implementation, do you really think police will lodge their complaints treat them as equals and corrupt pundits will see them any differently?

The problem lies in that very perception!! We need to change that perception and not create more problems and further loopholes for dirty politics. 

And hence to change that perception we need to educate whats the "Real Varna System" is, that all are equal and those pundits who discriminate are actually imposters. If we inject the truth in the acedmic syllabus, then it is bound to do wonders. Media can play an active role and strict laws can help further. Today many brahmins are not a preachers, or gurus or scholar, but simply imposters who think just by calling themselves as brahmins they can be brahmins. They need to verify themselves to the authorities, show their deep knowledge of scriptures and happenings in the modern world. Its like a reputed council of teachers trying to induce a new teacher to the school. Its like a company employing a new person on the basis of his expertise and knowledge and confirming him after 2 years after his evaluation.

I hope I'm clear enough.   




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> One more info I want to give you that, ur cast is stuck to u since ur birth. Yes again I tell u that its from birth. The first time castism was introduced it was based on profession but from next generation of the beginner (i.e the son of very first cobbler) its from birth. If u born in a cobbler family u r a cobbler.


Its like telling that when some misunderstanding happens then its eternal and everlasting and it has no cure. How absurd?? I believe you also need to read the link on "casteism" in my previous post.


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## vamsi_krishna (May 10, 2009)

We should not say reservation system should not exist. It should be provided to Physically Challenged people, Mentally retarded, Economically backward classes and it should not be provided on the basis of the cast. Every one is voting in the poll that they don't want reservation system. But reservation system should exist. But it should not be in the way that is right now. There is a tremendous amount of changes that should be made which will make the education system more compititive and rechable for all the classes in the economy.


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## rhitwick (May 10, 2009)

mediator said:


> All the examples you put forward are nuthing new to me. Thats a reality! And what I am saying is that 'reservation' is not eradicating the "root cause of the WHOLE PROBLEM", but simply keeping alive the tradition and creating more categories like I said. You think dalits will be spared from bullies and discrimination just by reservation?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## mediator (May 10, 2009)

rhitwick said:
			
		

> No, *reservation was not introduced to save them from getting bullied.* It was introduced to give them the reach to certain facilities which the higher cast people enjoy.


You are not reading are you? Suppose the English alphabet (A-Z) is a group of dalits. There is a general "perception" in the society that the dalits are the dirt of the society. A few dalits get reservation lets say in schools, colleges and corporates.

1. What assurance is there, that if they grow rich, they won't discmriniate against poor or 'percieve' them as dirt?
2. What assurance is there that the society will not continue to "percieve" them and other dalits as dirt?
3. In 'typically' doing so and saying it was the fault of "brahmins" aren't you accusing all the "brahmins" even when many of them might have been wise who new the truth and *were brahmins in real definition*??
4. In this 'theoretical pursuit of justice' aren't you discrminating against the meritorous students? i.e The result of Human stupidity (cast system) being countered with another(reservation)?
5. What assurance is there that police will not act like animals to them? I hope you have heard of cases when a dalit woman came to log complaint and policeman raped her.
6. In all of this, what about a poor non-OBC, non-SC/ST guy who gets a slap from the rich and cannot goto police for the fear of misconduct or simply "denied" police action i.e '*social backwardness inspite of being a non-lower cast*'?????? We all know police is the tool of the rich and powerful today and acts only when media showcases the issue.

Next, if you think that by reservation they can be given the facilty that the higher cast people enjoy, then do you think that "sense of perception" will still be there? If NO, then doesn't it mean that the "finance factor" has now overriden the "cast factor"? How are you defining an improvement? His cast still remains the same, the people still know he is a dalit, but with style and money.  If YES, then has the reservation really worked????? Further, is that dalit returning the luxuries and privileges that he got back to the society? I hope you know that human nature is such that one he gets the taste of corruption then it is very hard to make him uncorrupt.



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Now, this is a whole different thing. There are laws which can take care of those crooked officers.


Your posts tell how oblivious you are to the 'finance factor'. Its like you have never drove any vehicle or bike experienced a "challan" and subsequent goose (police pocket filling). You know I have given a goose as low as Rs.20 inspite of lacking all the three in the car, i.e RC, insurance, pollution check, and driving on learner's licence many years back and the situation is still the same. So what laws are you talking of? I believe if most of the laws in our nation had been strictly and actively exercised, then the country would have been much disciplined. How are Bangladeshis getting in our country? Vote Banks?

Why have Delhities started wearing helmets now? Because the traffic rules have now become strict (I am talking of ruless, not goose). But even then the intensity of that strictness varies upon the mood of the police and many policeman "misusing" the laws. e.g I dunno the number of times a relative of mine was fined for not applying the seat belt. The thing was he never went via the area written in the fine and second the same fine was issued again and again, with just date changed and third he is busy man to even "think" of fighting the police!!




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> But, u r right, how about a reservation in laws too


I don't know why are you thinking so much that reservation should be here and there and perhaps in this field too disregarding the root cause of the problem and consequences. How about simply 'helping them financially'?? Are you reading the links I gave while replying to karnivore????




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Hmmm, I c you have very high expectation from brahmins. May I know why is that so? *Why can't u treat them as normal (common man) rather asking everyone of them to be scholar, gurus etc.*
> U c, I told you already, the label of "Higher Cast" is also thurst upon us. We can't escape that too. If I'm Brahmin, people start expecting something special from me. Why? Main kyoun karu? I don't like to recite mantras, I don't like to wear that thread, I don't want to be knowledgeable to provide "gyan" in gatherings. I just want to be a common man who enjoys his dumbness,ignorence etc.
> Why do u call us imposter just because we don't know certain things?
> Have I claimed to you that I'm this and that and later u found out I'm bullsh1t??
> ...


After all the discussion back to square one??

I don't have any expectation, but only understand the 'definition' of ancient varna system and modern casts system and the reality. The line in the bold tells as if you think that the society is partitioned into 4 categories (A,B,C,D) where A has assumed all the supremacy and you thinking that all I'm saying is that A should act as it should. 

First, it again highlights the class by "birth" notion in your statements. Second, all I'm saying is that there are people from other categories like D who exhibit and fulfill the 'brahmin' definition OF THE ANCIENT VARNA SYSTEM and hence it is by 'karma'.  After all this discussion you are actually accusing me of not treating everyone as normal? Who is implementing reservation and who is favouring it here? Will the reservation system let us forget? It is only glorifying "modern" brahmins, 'cast by birth notion' and dividing the society further. It is also creating an image that brahmins were wicked and discriminated which is again absurd. Just like all OBCs/SC/ST are not socially and economically backward, similarly all the brahmins never discriminated. The 'theoretical measures' are actually flawed right in front of your own eyes, where you are treating percentages of discrimators and victims AS A WHOLE to base your your judgement.  

I want to treat everyone as "normal". But, IF people want to identify themselves based on cast, then don't you think they should be enlightened of what the ancient system really speaks of ????


I'm only repeating for you. So just for conversation's sake start treating and picturing brahmins as teachers and scholars in all your successive posts, where today there is a society where some say I'm a scholar because my cast is that of scholar i.e today there are scholars by 'birth' and not 'karma'. Imagine a person calling himself a scientist, a scholar, a teacher by birth.  

So, I hope you finally understand. 



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Yes!!! Its absurd. Isn't it?
> But its true. When in literature class, our literature teacher was teaching us the evolution of letters, words, writing language (we call sadhu bhasha), spoken language (Chalit bhasha or language used by everyone in daily life). He gave us numerous example where a spelling is mispelt once had become a standard or official one after some decades.
> Even if you go by naming of certain villages, cities etc u'll find such examples.
> Just one for u
> "An interesting anecdote exists on the nomenclature of Calcutta. According to it, a British merchant was traveling through the village, when he came upon a peasant stacking hay into the barn. Not knowing where he was, the merchant asked the peasant about that place. The peasant, unfortunately did not understand English, and he guessed that the Sahib must be inquiring about the date the crop was harvested. In his own language, he replied "Kal Kata" which in Bengali language means "harvested yesterday" (Kal - Yesterday, Kata - cut, which here means harvested). The merchant was happy in the knowledge that he had learned about the name of the place, and left the place. Following English transcription, "Kal Kata" became "Calcutta"." (From wiki)


Sorry, but I didn't understand the point! 

I think that you were stressing earlier that the 'cast by birth' is irreversible.

Imagine an Indian *soldier (the kshatryia class)* in war chatting with another, "hey what cast are you". Other says, "hey I'm a brahmin".


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## rhitwick (May 10, 2009)

mediator said:


> 1. What assurance is there, that if they grow rich, they won't discmriniate against poor or 'percieve' them as dirt?


WTF??!! Why are so worried about what they would turn up in future. Its not our responsibility. Reservation was created to facilitate them not to keep track them of their doings.


> 3. In 'typically' doing so and saying it was the fault of "brahmins" aren't you accusing all the "brahmins" even when many of them might have been wise who new the truth and *were brahmins in real definition*??


I'm accusing none. I've no grudge against any particular community. I'm against reservation but in solution I want free education. I guess we both agreed on this topic earlier. I just don't want to abolish reservation without a back-up plan. At least, at the very least 1% of the needy people is getting favor due to reservation. If we "just" abolish reservation, the small amount of favor will also stop.


> 4. In this 'theoretical pursuit of justice' aren't you discrminating against the meritorous students? i.e The result of Human stupidity (cast system) being countered with another(reservation)?


I've already told that how merit is getting lost due to lack of finance. Money matters. Again, both of us agreed on this topic earlier.


> 5. What assurance is there that police will not act like animals to them? I hope you have heard of cases when a dalit woman came to log complaint and policeman raped her.
> 6. In all of this, what about a poor non-OBC, non-SC/ST guy who gets a slap from the rich and cannot goto police for the fear of misconduct or simply "denied" police action i.e '*social backwardness inspite of being a non-lower cast*'?????? We all know police is the tool of the rich and powerful today and acts only when media showcases the issue.


Police and its immoral behavior can be diff. topic in fight club. Plz, lets not deviate from topic. Thats why I told you "It is a whole diff story"



> Next, if you think that by reservation they can be given the facilty that the higher cast people enjoy, then do you think that "sense of perception" will still be there? If NO, then doesn't it mean that the "finance factor" has now overriden the "cast factor"?


Agreed.


> How are you defining an improvement? His cast still remains the same, the people still know he is a dalit, but with style and money.  If YES, then has the reservation really worked?????


Oh, when will you understand that RESERVATION is used to facilitate them, its not used to make people forget their cast. 
I'm just tired now telling this same thing over the last few post. Please read with concentration. I guess you have some misconception for reservation, how and whys of it.


> *Further, is that dalit returning the luxuries and privileges that he got back to the society?*


Its not our responsibility to check that. Unfaithful, backstabbing and irresponsible persons exist in this world since decades and irrespective of gender, cast, country. We can't control them. 



> Your posts tell how oblivious you are to the 'finance factor'. Its like you have never drove any vehicle or bike


How did u come to know?? 
I was just learning riding bike and got posted her. 
But I've experienced "those" seating in backseat of bikes.

And, Law and order in India could be a different topic in "Fight Club", please stay in topic.



> I don't know why are you thinking so much that reservation should be here and there and perhaps in this field too disregarding the root cause of the problem and consequences. How about simply 'helping them financially'??


Already replied above.



> I don't have any expectation


Oh, yeah...let me quote ur words first.



> Today many brahmins are not a preachers, or gurus or scholar, but simply imposters who think just by calling themselves as brahmins they can be brahmins. They need to verify themselves to the authorities, show their deep knowledge of scriptures and happenings in the modern world


and 


> I want to treat everyone as "normal". But, IF people want to identify themselves based on cast, then don't you think they should be enlightened of what the ancient system really speaks of ????



These are ur grudge against brahmins and very much clearly means that to be a true brahmin to ur eyes ALL THE BRAHMINS should do those. Else all of them are imposters. 
But as u've already told in an earlier post. (2nd Page of this thread, post no. bhul gaya)


mediator said:


> Yep, he is only expected, but doesn't always do.


U also belive that all of them can't do those. So what is ur problem? Yes, there are imposters in all cast, aren't? Why are u targetting only brahmins?

As I've already told,


> If I say, I don't want to be a brahmin, and go out and shout "From today I'm not a brahmin" or "I'm not a Rajput" etc, would u believe? (May be u would, because u r arguing here) But the society won't accept it. Either they will laugh or I'll be entitled as MAD.
> Casteism is not a bliss for us too





> First, it again highlights the class by "birth" notion in your statements. Second, all I'm saying is that there are people from other categories like D who exhibit and fulfill the 'brahmin' definition OF THE ANCIENT VARNA SYSTEM and hence it is by 'karma'.


It was based on "karma" when al of it started but now its pure by birth. 



> I'm only repeating for you. So just for conversation's sake start treating and picturing brahmins as teachers and scholars in all your successive posts, where today there is a society where some say I'm a scholar because my cast is that of scholar i.e today there are scholars by 'birth' and not 'karma'. Imagine a person calling himself a scientist, a scholar, a teacher by birth.


FYI...none is researching on casteism so that new casts would come up. But, if you go back to the time of Varnashram u would find that all (at least 99%) doctors, scientists, scholars were brahmin or very little Kshatriya and in exceptional (or accidental) cases vaishya or shudras. So it never required to create dif. cast for these trades.



> Sorry, but I didn't understand the point!


I was just trying to make you understand that, if a wrong is practised for enough time it becomes truer than the truth.



> I think that you were stressing earlier that the 'cast by birth' is irreversible.


It is. 



> Imagine an Indian *soldier (the kshatryia class)* in war chatting with another, "hey what cast are you". Other says, "hey I'm a brahmin".


I don't need to imagine. I know it happens. If you have friends in army ask them.


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## mediator (May 11, 2009)

rhitwick said:
			
		

> WTF??!! Why are so worried about what they would turn up in future. *Its not our responsibility.* Reservation was created to facilitate them not to keep track them of their doings.


Just what I expected. You simply just don't want to eradicate the root cause of the problem but create more problems.



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> I'm accusing none. I've no grudge against any particular community. I'm against reservation but in solution I want free education. I guess we both agreed on this topic earlier. I just don't want to abolish reservation without a back-up plan. At least, at the very least 1% of the needy people is getting favor due to reservation. If we "just" abolish reservation, the small amount of favor will also stop.


Agreed!



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Police and its immoral behavior can be diff. topic in fight club. Plz, lets not deviate from topic. Thats why I told you "It is a whole diff story"


Why? Isn't police a part of the society? Even in our households many beat the servants just because of a  careless, unintentional mistake. What about the hospitals where the poor is "denied"? Or should we ignore that also calling it "deviation"?? You should not try to ignore the examples. I can keep adding where the poor has been "denied" regardless of his/her cast which simply shows how much real is the case where the economic backwardness leads to social backwardness and everything start stabilising when a person becomes financially sound. 



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Oh, *when will you understand that RESERVATION is used to facilitate them*, its not used to make people forget their cast.
> I'm just tired now telling this same thing over the last few post. Please read with concentration. I guess you have some misconception for reservation, how and whys of it.


I understand it crystal clear. But it seems you see it "only" as a facilitation, which is sad!!!

1. I am asking for the holistic development from childhood which cannot be separated from "equal competition", whereas reservation is a joke on the system of overall development.
2. I'm asking to be fair to everyone in terms of competition whereas reservation is a slap on meritocracy.
3. Other ills I already stated.

The bold tells that you are neither concerned about the merit nor about the complete development of the reservation tagged ones. So I guess even the "usage" of the term "facilitation" is flawed for you are not facilitating them with complete development. 



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Its not our responsibility to check that. Unfaithful, backstabbing and irresponsible persons exist in this world since decades and irrespective of gender, cast, country. We can't control them.


How true. So I guess we should make a law which says "all those who get reservation will return the luxuries they got in terms of cash after the stabilization of their finances". 



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> *How did u come to know??*
> I was just learning riding bike and got posted her.
> But I've experienced "those" seating in backseat of bikes.
> 
> And, Law and order in India could be a different topic in "Fight Club", please stay in topic.


coz I'm the ONE!  8)

Ofcourse law n order could be diff. topic. I stated that in response to  ur "reservation in law" point.




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> These are ur grudge against brahmins and very much clearly means that to be a true brahmin to ur eyes ALL THE BRAHMINS should do those. Else all of them are imposters.
> But as u've already told in an earlier post. (2nd Page of this thread, post no. bhul gaya)


Thats not called "expectation" from brahmins, but a verification and clarification of who the true brahmin is and who the imposter is. I'm not "expecting" anyone to become a teacher or a scholar, but simply to know as to who all are the "sagely teachers". *It could be anyone "regardless" of their surnames.* It could also be that some dalit, who was teaching in a small school, is actually a brahmin in the real definition.








			
				mediator_old said:
			
		

> Also, Its quite common for people who excel in CBSE board exams ( @mhg, ignore it ) to perform bad later in graduation where they flunk and repeat semester exams. Whereas, there are others who were average, some who were considered as insolent brats in school perform excellent in graduation and post graduation.





			
				mediator_old said:
			
		

> rhitwick_old said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





			
				rhitwick_new said:
			
		

> mediator_old said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"All of them", "brahmins"?? WTH?? Your posts are completely out of context, unconnected and you accuse me all over of not reading. Why are doing this to me? If you hate me then just say so! 

I even wished you Happy Birthday. 







			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> If I say, I don't want to be a brahmin, and go out and shout "From today I'm not a brahmin" or "I'm not a Rajput" etc, would u believe? (May be u would, because u r arguing here) *But the society won't accept it.*


Wasn't it you who told me to talk of places other than Delhi? Delhi has accepted it!!



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Either they will laugh or I'll be entitled as MAD.
> Casteism is not a bliss for us too


I wonder how many times I have discussed this topic with my friends in real life and the last time I discussed, the person "still agreed" to me instead of laughing!!!!!!!!

One time during my trip to Ilahbad via train, I had a conversation with an old man in my compartment. He was talkative and asked me my name and then surname. So I decided to return the favour. I asked his surname and he said "Sharma". He said he is a brahmin. And hence the FIGHT CLUB was ON. I asked, what "sharma has to do with being a brahmin"?? He said straight away, "I know where you are going and its how the society is and politicians will not let it die".

SO @rhitwick, I hope you understand the moral of the story.

And so, remember nobody laughs on logic!! I hoped that was clear to you from the "science Vs God" thread where many of the ignorant atheists, who themselves didn't know the abcd of science well, made it a habit to laugh on the theists. Why? Simply because theism acc. to them was illogical. And here you are changing your tone. Why? Because you never thought of the subject deeply???? 




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> It was based on "karma" when al of it started but *now its pure by birth*.


Yep, and we need to eradicate that, or did you forget that?




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> FYI...none is researching on casteism so that new casts would come up. But, if you go back to the time of Varnashram u would find that *all (at least 99%) doctors, scientists, scholars were brahmin or very little Kshatriya and in exceptional (or accidental) cases vaishya or shudras.* So it never required to create dif. cast for these trades.


Now why the heck would any doctor,scientist,scholar, guru, spirital guru etc etc be identified as kshatriya, vaishya or shudra, ofcourse at that time of varnashram???? 

Back to start. Do you really understand "who" a kshatriya, vaishya, shudra was and "what their actions were"???




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> I was just trying to make you understand that, *if a wrong is practised for enough time it becomes truer than the truth.*


Human stupidity crosses the threshold when such kind of notion is presented as truth!!! 

I think you don't understand what you just stated or you simply need to stop. If the situation in the Indian metros have changed, then so can whole of India.

You know nobody cares who or what cast the person is, in the place I live in. Sikhs, Hindus, dalits, brahmins etc all live peacefully and equally. Recently a brahmin from South India came to our area and acted most typically, spoke gods name when a sweeper accidently touched her while sweeping and treated her as untouchable. The story spread to the whole society and guess who was looked down upon. Do answer this one!!




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> mediator said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was stating the irony and humour in such a sentence. Why so serious?


----------



## karnivore (May 11, 2009)

It is difficult to quote everyone and reply. So let me summarize my thoughts on reservation.

*Purpose of reservation ?*

  The primary aim of the current reservation is not to make a doctor, or an engineer, or an IAS out of every single dalit. The goal is to first, give them access to education facilities, at primary level, which would have been inaccessible due to the reason of caste, so that the socially ostracized kids can get into the current system of education. This inaccessibility is not because of poverty, but due to the caste system. Extending this reservation to, beyond the primary level, that is, graduation/post-graduation/post-post-graduation level, is to, additionally ensure, that the ones, particularly the first generation schooled, do not get lost in an uneven competition with the upper class. It is to ensure, that they can be educated enough to be assimilated within the so called civil society. These educated “backward” class can then be ploughed back to the society, at appropriate levels e.g. as school teachers, college professors, govt. officials and even as doctors or engineers. The third and final phase of reservation, is the reservation in govt. jobs. This again, is the process of assimilation within the society, of, by now, fairly educated “backward” class.

  Therefore, the aim of reservation is to bring this backward class within the folds of our society from the fringe, through a process, of first ensuring accessibility to education facilities at all levels, and then protecting from uneven competition. It is caste alleviation program, not caste eradication program, although one can hope, that multi-ethnicity within the campus will go a long way in that process as well. It is not a poverty eradication program either.

*Economic reservation better ?*

  Economic deprivation effects all – Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaisya, Sudra, Muslim, Christian, boy, girl, handicapped, absolutely all. Economic reservation, will definitely result in economic upliftment, but will it solve the problem that is unique to the system of caste – social ostracism ? How can economic reservation guarantee that the “backward” class will not be discriminated against, on the basis of caste ? It can’t. What use is of the economic reservation, if access to school can’t be ensured in the first place. These people are not discriminated against, because they are poor, but because of the caste that they belong to. Economic backwardness results in discrimination, no doubt, and can be remedied through economic assistances or sops. But it can’t solve a problem, that is not related to economics.

  Therefore, the problem that is unique to casteism, needs a solution that specifically addresses this caste based problem. This is where, the caste-based reservation kicks in. Expecting economic reservations to solve this unique problem, is like loosing your coin in the dark corner of an alley and then looking for it under the lamppost, just because there is light.

  Before moving on, let me remind you that economic assistance exists, both at primary and higher level of education system. All schools, under Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan (Education for all program) scheme are free with a mid day meal system in place. At higher level, the govt. institutes, like IITs or AIMS, for example, charge a very nominal portion of its cost as fees. The remaining is subsidized. Heavily, I must add. On top of that, there is a system of student loan which is available, without any security with a very relaxed payment schedule.

*What about the economically deprived upper class ?*

  Yes, they are a matter of concern. But they are effected by economic deprivation in the same way, as everyone in the society. They do not face the discrimination, that the backward class faces and since the economic alleviation of the poor is outside the scope of the current system of reservation, they have to be left out. Their plight can be solved through economic assistance that is already in place (see above) or may be through other better schemes.

*Promotes, incompetence, mediocrity and is antithetical to merit ?*

  Lets forget, caste based reservation for the moment. An estimate says, that every year, India produces more than 300,000 engineers. All the govt. sponsored seats fall, miserably short of the demand. Private colleges fill that place. These, private colleges charge capitation fees, directly or indirectly. (Any non-refundable part of advance is capitation fee.) On top of that, the infrastructure, i.e. lab facilities, faculty, campus etc, most of them provide are horrendous. So basically, a person with moolah, can get admitted to one of these colleges while a person with an empty pocket won’t. Isn’t it reservation in disguise, for the ones who can afford to buy education ? Merit, here explicitly takes a back seat, while money does all the bidding. The quality of graduates, that these institutes produce is also a question. Then there is a specific reservation for NRIs. It is nothing but seat reserved for the highest bidder. 

  This leads to an even bigger question of how to measure merit. That, in itself is a can of worms. But may be later.

  But does reservation really promotes incompetence. Tamil Nadu can be a good case for studying. Currently TN has 69% reservation for the backward class. The reservation existed in TN, in such substantial quantity, long before Mandal Commission even made any recommendation. For the first time, in TN or anywhere in India, the backward class (BC), actually outsmarted the forward class (FC), in 2005. Of the total of 430 open seats, for Medical Entrance, 321 seats were bagged by the BCs, 57 by MBCs, 14 by SCs and only 38 by Forward Community. Since then, the BCs are getting a significant piece of the cake without resorting to reservation. TN tears to shreds the argument of breading mediocrity. TN experience also proves that, if reservation reaches to the actual needy, they can change the situation in no more than 2 or 3 generations only.

*Only a handful of BCs get the benefit. The rest is usurped by the people of the same class, but with money and power ?*

  That, people with money or power take advantage of this system, is true. There indeed are loopholes which allow a whole lot of people to take advantage of this system. This needs a thorough shake up of the system,(see below) but not discarding it altogether, just because some people are taking advantage of it. That, the backward class is slowly getting represented in almost all segment of society, is also true. That, in the very urban to semi-urban areas, the casteism has become a much watered down version of what is still practiced in rural India, is, again, true. We can’t ignore the benefits of a system because of some handful of unscrupulous men.

*Blame the incorrect interpretation of the “varna” system ?*

  May be. May be not. What is the correct interpretation of the “verna” system, is open for never ending debates. There are enough evidences in the vedas, Upanishads, smiritis etc. that support the idea of “verna” from birth. Even Gita contradicts itself on this “verna” system. In any case, it is, at the moment irrelevant, what the “correct” interpretation is. What is relevant, is how it is being perceived by the mass.

  Shall “injecting” the “correct” interpretation, if at all there is any such interpretation, of “verna” system into curriculum, eventually remedy the system ? There is data, to prove, that education does little to change one’s perception of religion. People, subject to rigors of scientific studies find it difficult to let go of their personal prejudices. Not exactly, too encouraging. Besides, what shall one do to the system of injustice, that is currently in place, while we wait, for the “correct” interpretation of “verna” to take its effect.

*Is the current system adequate ?*

  No. Far from it. The mechanism for reservation, at the primary level is fairly OK. But problem arises at the higher level. I personally found 2 of the suggestions, made by many sociologists, pretty interesting.

  #1. Let the reservation skip a generation. Say Mr X takes the benefit of the quota system. In that case his kids won’t be eligible for quota. But his grandson would be. Now, if his grandson doesn’t take the benefit of quota, then it will pass to his great-grandson and so on. But, if he does take the benefit, then his great-grandson would become ineligible. (Something like Chinese population restriction) This will plug the loophole, where successive generations take the aide of reservation, even when there is no need for that. This will also create a necessity for one generation to try his best, not to waste his privilege.

  There can be debate on, if one in two generations shall be skipped or one in three generations or some other combination.

  #2. Let the reservation be based on a combination of factors. Give caste the highest weightage. But give, past performance, family income, area of residence, prominent weightage. (Something like Canadian immigration system of points) For example, just for explanation’s sake, give 35 points to caste, 25 points to past performance and 20 points each to family income and area of residence.

  Again, there can be a debate on the factors that should be taken into consideration, or the weights that each such factor shall carry.

*Conclusion:*

  Reservation based on caste is needed, and will continue to be needed till a substantial portion of the BCs get represented in the society. What constitutes substantial, can be debated at length – on the basis of percentage of BCs in total population, or below poverty level, or living in rural areas or some other combination. I am open to the idea of scrapping the current mechanism. But whatever mechanism takes its place, it must give caste its due prominence.


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## The Conqueror (May 11, 2009)

karnivore said:


> Let the reservation be based on a combination of factors. Give* caste the highest weightage*. But give, past performance, family income, area of residence, prominent weightage. (Something like Canadian immigration system of points) For example, just for explanation’s sake, give 35 points to caste, 25 points to past performance and 20 points each to family income and area of residence.
> 
> Again, there can be a debate on the factors that should be taken into consideration, or the weights that each such factor shall carry.


See,this reservation itself encourages caste-ism..You say give the lower caste the highest weightage..I dont agree..

Consider this example :
There are 2 students one is upper class and one is frm SC/ST whatever..Both of them have taken education till 12th. The Upperclass one has got 92% while the lower cast student has got a mere 59%.Both of them want to take the same academic field. Now considering the reservation pattern and the seats available the so-called SC/ST gets admission and the upper class student does NOT.So whats the use of the hard work?
The past is past , This is NOT Equality.

Now you will say this example is biased but then WHY WHY WHY make reservation based on caste in first place.Make Reservation on the basis of *Merit *ONLY . You say that SC/ST does not get admission and other facilities,but mind you,the SC/ST/OBC that I have seen ENJOYS more facilities and privileges and 99% of them DO NOT Excel in their career thereby hampering the national resources and the *seat* which could have been replaced by a Meritious student.Bring in equality ,forget the caste,provide education till 12th and then no more reservation on the basis of caste but ON THE BASIS OF MERIT.


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## mediator (May 11, 2009)

@karnivore : 

My last post for you, has answered almost the whole of this post of yours. So instead of wasting your time in repeating the stuff, you could have answered that one. And by posting the "varna system" in the same ignorant view, you have again shown that you are not interested in the real meaning and understanding the reality of it which has been again given in my previous post for you in the form of a sourced read. Would I be repeating varna system for you in the future for an umpteenth time?

How can the reservation promoters be interested in Justice, if they just like to opine and not read the truth?



> We can’t ignore the benefits of a system because of *some handful of unscrupulous men*.


And now, Indian politics is reduced to a "handful of unscurpulous men" just to support your stand? 



> I personally found 2 of the suggestions, made by many sociologists, pretty interesting.
> 
> #1. Let the reservation skip a generation. Say Mr X takes the benefit of the quota system. In that case his kids won’t be eligible for quota. But his grandson would be. Now, if his grandson doesn’t take the benefit of quota, then it will pass to his great-grandson and so on. But, if he does take the benefit, then his great-grandson would become ineligible. (Something like Chinese population restriction) This will plug the loophole, where successive generations take the aide of reservation, even when there is no need for that. This will also create a necessity for one generation to try his best, not to waste his privilege.


"Hey son, I did all the hard work in my time. You just enjoy the quota!!" ?? 

I believe olympics should also start reservation/quota practices for poor nations and those nations who are "denied" entry to Security Council!




> #2. Let the reservation be based on a combination of factors. Give caste the highest weightage. But give, past performance, family income, area of residence, prominent weightage. (Something like Canadian immigration system of points) For example, just for explanation’s sake, give 35 points to caste, 25 points to past performance and 20 points each to family income and area of residence.


Family income is flawed, past performance is flawed (cheating, goosing, 70% board questions repeated, forged certificates, usage of "contacts"?). You know it is not necessary that something that works for one be working for another. 


And once again, you have neglected the "root cause" of the problem. 



> Conclusion:
> Reservation based on caste is needed, and will continue to be needed till a substantial portion of the BCs get represented in the society. What constitutes substantial, can be debated at length – on the basis of percentage of BCs in total population, or below poverty level, or living in rural areas or some other combination. I am open to the idea of scrapping the current mechanism. But whatever mechanism takes its place, it must give caste its due prominence.


Please reply to the last post of mine for you. Reservation remains an extremely flawed and self contradicting, discriminating and injustice magnifying tool.


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## karnivore (May 11, 2009)

The Conqueror said:
			
		

> See,this reservation itself encourages caste-ism..You say give the lower caste the highest weightage..I dont agree..
> 
> Consider this example :
> There are 2 students one is upper class and one is frm SC/ST whatever..Both of them have taken education till 12th. The Upperclass one has got 92% while the lower cast student has got a mere 59%.Both of them want to take the same academic field. Now considering the reservation pattern and the seats available the so-called SC/ST gets admission and the upper class student does NOT.So whats the use of the hard work?


  You have quoted one of my favorite solutions to the problem. Unfortunately you have highlighted a portion, that is only a part of the entire solution. The solution seeks to give maximum weightage to cast, not the ONLY weightage. It is supposed to have a combination of factors, and I guess I have made it clear, that past performance should be given a consideration. In the above example, it might so happen, that these combination of factors may actually allow the so-called hard workers (for some reason there is a belief that hard work always translates into marks) to get a better placement.


> The past is past…


  …which is killing the present and threatening the future.


> … This is NOT Equality.


  Nope, no one claims that. It is a road to equality.


> WHY WHY WHY make reservation based on caste in first place.


  Read my posts.


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## karnivore (May 11, 2009)

mediator said:


> @karnivore :
> 
> My last post for you, has answered almost the whole of this post of yours. So instead of wasting your time in repeating the stuff, you could have answered that one.


I saw your post only when I was posting. Even then, you haven't said anything ground breakingly refreshing. Same old drivels.



> And by posting the "varna system" in the same ignorant view, you have again shown that you are not interested in the real meaning and understanding the reality of it which has been again given in my previous post for you in the form of a sourced read. Would I be repeating varna system for you in the future for an umpteenth time?


If that link you provided, is anything to go by, you are looking at the wrong place. What is interesting is how you are avoiding to answer the more fundamental question regarding your so called understanding of the varna system.

What shall one do to the system of injustice, that is currently in place, while we wait, for the “correct” interpretation of “verna” to take its effect.

And yes, you give me all the links you want, and that still wouldn't change my mind.



> How can the reservation promoters be interested in Justice, if they just like to opine and not read the truth?


Who decides what is the truth ? What is truth to you, is a bone of contention to me.


> And now, Indian politics is reduced to a "handful of unscurpulous men" just to support your stand?


I was not referring to the politicians at all. But you live upto expectations - that of not understanding what is being said.



> "Hey son, I did all the hard work in my time. You just enjoy the quota!!" ??


That solution is just opposite of that. 



> I believe olympics should also start reservation/quota practices for poor nations and those nations who are "denied" entry to Security Council!


Contrary to what you think, you are not too good with metaphors, and certainly not with sarcasm.



> Family income is flawed, past performance is flawed (cheating, goosing, 70% board questions repeated, forged certificates, usage of "contacts"?). You know it is not necessary that something that works for one be working for another.


If family income is flawed, then a whole bunch of govt. scheme is a waste of money. If past performance is flawed, then you are actually questioning the very essence of "meritocracy" that you were championing till now. The so called merit is measured by means of past performance only.


> And once again, you have neglected the "root cause" of the problem.


What shall we do, while we start purging the so called root causes. Suck our thumbs, I guess. 


> Please reply to the last post of mine for you. Reservation remains an extremely flawed and self contradicting, discriminating and injustice magnifying tool.


Just choosing and selecting to answer what you think you can answer. Any opinion on TN phenomena ?


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## Faun (May 11, 2009)

karnivore said:


> *Conclusion:*
> 
> Reservation based on caste is needed, and will continue to be needed till a substantial portion of the BCs get represented in the society. What constitutes substantial, can be debated at length – on the basis of percentage of BCs in total population, or below poverty level, or living in rural areas or some other combination. I am open to the idea of scrapping the current mechanism. But whatever mechanism takes its place, it must give caste its due prominence.




It leads to more discrimination than the solution of the problem. Reservation based on cast is not the solution, its like saying that revolution will solve the problem.


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## mediator (May 11, 2009)

karnivore said:
			
		

> I saw your post only when I was posting. Even then, you haven't said anything ground breakingly refreshing. Same old drivels.


Thats not like you. We "prove" by "reasoning" of what we don't find ground breaking and not by simply stating a line as such or "opining", remember??



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> If that link you provided, is anything to go by, you are looking at the wrong place. What is interesting is how you are avoiding to answer the more fundamental question regarding your so called understanding of the varna system.
> 
> *What shall one do to the system of injustice, that is currently in place, while we wait, for the “correct” interpretation of “verna” to take its effect.*
> 
> And yes, you give me all the links you want, and that still wouldn't change my mind.


I have given the steps clear enough. It again shows that you are not interested in "reasoning" now, but only telling of what your "beliefs" are. I'm quoting you and you have decided not to quote the post of mine that went with the flow.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Who decides what is the truth ? What is truth to you, is a bone of contention to me.


The truth is the scriptures on which all this "corrupt human imagination" is based on. What is said in scriptures, is not followed and what is followed is not written. If you are out of time, then I'm not forcing you to "promote" opinions and repetitions. And thats how one loses interest in a discussion when one doesn't reads and continues opining all along.

So, its only your confusion and reluctance to read, that is becoming that "bone of contention" for you.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> If family income is flawed, then a whole bunch of govt. scheme is a waste of money. If past performance is flawed, then you are actually questioning the very essence of "meritocracy" that you were championing till now. The so called merit is measured by means of past performance only.


I am quoting the solution of the problem and you are only seeing the problem and not the solution. From the begining I've been championing "the eradication of root cause" of "what" makes it a flaw. It doesn't mean meritocracy is flawed. And so you are wrong again!! And yet again you are showing how we should encounter one human stupidity with another. Instead of eradicating the influencing factors that hamper merit i.e reservation, "money power", "forged certificates" etc, you are taking it for granted that merit is flawed and hence we should put forward reservation which is self contradictory and flawed "in concept". Instead of arguing "how to remove the influence of corrupt means on merit", you are picturing as if merit is "corrupt" and hence install something more corrupting and logically flawed that takes human stupidity to a level beyond. You certainly need to categorize the class of "actions and reactions", "a system and external factors affecting that system" for a clearer understanding. 

Its like I'm telling a person is diseased and instead of discussing what we should do to "remove" that disease, you are only arguing that the person is diseased and so we should help him in life. 



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Just choosing and selecting to answer what you think you can answer. Any opinion on TN phenomena ?


The opinion is LOUD AND CLEAR in that post of mine. Why are you ignoring to quote that post anyways?


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## gopi_vbboy (May 11, 2009)

karnivore said:


> It is difficult to quote everyone and reply. So let me summarize my thoughts on reservation.
> 
> *Purpose of reservation ?*
> 
> ...



way of saying so called socially oppressed hav right to take so called revenge...
but i again say u r still thinking narrow mindedly...half of the pro-reservation activists are hypocrites....dont understand wat they saying emosionally...jus say wat they need without thinking of others...its not the way to go....all i say is this will result in discrimination for sure...untill reserv is based on economic status not caste eliminating creamy layer


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## MetalheadGautham (May 11, 2009)

karnivore said:


> It is difficult to quote everyone and reply. So let me summarize my thoughts on reservation.
> 
> *Purpose of reservation ?*
> 
> The primary aim of the current reservation is not to make a doctor, or an engineer, or an IAS out of every single dalit. The goal is to first, give them access to education facilities, at primary level, which would have been inaccessible due to the reason of caste, so that the socially ostracized kids can get into the current system of education. This inaccessibility is not because of poverty, but due to the caste system. Extending this reservation to, beyond the primary level, that is, graduation/post-graduation/post-post-graduation level, is to, additionally ensure, that the ones, particularly the first generation schooled, do not get lost in an uneven competition with the upper class. It is to ensure, that they can be educated enough to be assimilated within the so called civil society. These educated “backward” class can then be ploughed back to the society, at appropriate levels e.g. as school teachers, college professors, govt. officials and even as doctors or engineers. The third and final phase of reservation, is the reservation in govt. jobs. This again, is the process of assimilation within the society, of, by now, fairly educated “backward” class.






> Therefore, the aim of reservation is to bring this backward class within the folds of our society from the fringe, through a process, of first ensuring accessibility to education facilities at all levels, and then protecting from uneven competition. It is caste alleviation program, not caste eradication program, although one can hope, that multi-ethnicity within the campus will go a long way in that process as well. It is not a poverty eradication program either.



1. If the question of discrimination "socially" does not even arise in developed India, why should developed Indians bear the brunt of reservation and give in to undeserving fools ?

2. What makes you think that social representation in public sector obtained without merit and on basis of one's ancestor's identity gives social respect ?

3.What makes you think that somebody should be pampered with facilities since his ancestors were denied it ?

4. Why do you assume that almost all "reserved" classes are poverty-stricken and socially discriminated against while all "unreserved" classes are filthy rich with PS3s, GameBoys, Plasma TVs and Lots of Money ?

5. Why should government ensure that only reserved classes get benifit of access to education easily at all levels while others should struggle doing the same ?

   6. When the government could abolish Privy Purse and titles, why not reservation when it tries to tell that all Indians are equal and have equal status and opportunity ?

*



			Economic reservation better ?
		
Click to expand...

*


> Economic deprivation effects all – Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaisya, Sudra, Muslim, Christian, boy, girl, handicapped, absolutely all. Economic reservation, will definitely result in economic upliftment, but will it solve the problem that is unique to the system of caste – social ostracism ? How can economic reservation guarantee that the “backward” class will not be discriminated against, on the basis of caste ? It can’t. What use is of the economic reservation, if access to school can’t be ensured in the first place. These people are not discriminated against, because they are poor, but because of the caste that they belong to. Economic backwardness results in discrimination, no doubt, and can be remedied through economic assistances or sops. But it can’t solve a problem, that is not related to economics.
> 
> Therefore, the problem that is unique to casteism, needs a solution that specifically addresses this caste based problem. This is where, the caste-based reservation kicks in. Expecting economic reservations to solve this unique problem, is like loosing your coin in the dark corner of an alley and then looking for it under the lamppost, just because there is light.
> 
> Before moving on, let me remind you that economic assistance exists, both at primary and higher level of education system. All schools, under Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan (Education for all program) scheme are free with a mid day meal system in place. At higher level, the govt. institutes, like IITs or AIMS, for example, charge a very nominal portion of its cost as fees. The remaining is subsidized. Heavily, I must add. On top of that, there is a system of student loan which is available, without any security with a very relaxed payment schedule.



What makes you think that economic reservation will have less effect than caste reservation ?

Are you aware that economic empowerment will result in financial security and independence ? A dalit denied access to a temple can build his own and say STFU to the upper class people who denied access to him. Financial empowerment to all brings true respect.

Caste reservation sucks because once reserved, always reserved. Unlike economic reservation, where a person once poor and now rich no longer needs to be provided support by the government.



*



			What about the economically deprived upper class ?
		
Click to expand...

*


> Yes, they are a matter of concern. But they are effected by economic deprivation in the same way, as everyone in the society. They do not face the discrimination, that the backward class faces and since the economic alleviation of the poor is outside the scope of the current system of reservation, they have to be left out. Their plight can be solved through economic assistance that is already in place (see above) or may be through other better schemes.



Thats a very wrong way to put things. Lower castes face abuse and stay that way mainly because they are dependant on upper classes for shops, rations, books, etc. Same way in future, upper castes can face ire of lower  castes if they are not financially secure. The best way to prevent caste wars among these n00bs is by increasing ecomonic assistances.

Instead of just loans, India can follow a methord used in National University of Singapore, where a student works for a certain number of years in a national company  (call it a government company in India) to pay back for free education, but selection takes place solely on basis of merit and not on basis of who his parents are.

*



			Promotes, incompetence, mediocrity and is antithetical to merit ?
		
Click to expand...

*


> Lets forget, caste based reservation for the moment. An estimate says, that every year, India produces more than 300,000 engineers. All the govt. sponsored seats fall, miserably short of the demand. Private colleges fill that place. These, private colleges charge capitation fees, directly or indirectly. (Any non-refundable part of advance is capitation fee.) On top of that, the infrastructure, i.e. lab facilities, faculty, campus etc, most of them provide are horrendous. So basically, a person with moolah, can get admitted to one of these colleges while a person with an empty pocket won’t. Isn’t it reservation in disguise, for the ones who can afford to buy education ? Merit, here explicitly takes a back seat, while money does all the bidding. The quality of graduates, that these institutes produce is also a question. Then there is a specific reservation for NRIs. It is nothing but seat reserved for the highest bidder.
> 
> This leads to an even bigger question of how to measure merit. That, in itself is a can of worms. But may be later.



There is a difference here FYKI.

Firstly, a majority of such universities suck and unless the student is good enough, he can't get a job from them.

Next, its a matter of pride in a way. A poor student can study and become rich and his children live more comfortably and get easy seats here, at the same time a rich boy can become poor and his kids can suffer later. This means this kind of reservation is not tied to one's birth but at something else. Something which someone makes himself or with help of his family.

Besides, what makes you think that some of the reputed private universities which have NRI quota don't give scholarships ? I would rather milk some rich students to help poorer students and improve infrastructure than give seats to undeserving students who neither bring good to the collage in terms of moolah, nor have they got as much merit as others.

And again, the system of "government grants" as I said before can help here. Poor students if they are asked Rs. 8 lakhs for a BE, they can get help from government for work in government office at slightly lesser pay for a minimum fixed no. of years. While government benifits here by getting work done for lesser money (as long as min no. of years of work is high enough), students benifit by getting degree and also a job.

Indian govermnent should start treating education as an "investment" to make money, mutually. Then India will start prospering a lot more.



> But does reservation really promotes incompetence. Tamil Nadu can be a good case for studying. Currently TN has 69% reservation for the backward class. The reservation existed in TN, in such substantial quantity, long before Mandal Commission even made any recommendation. For the first time, in TN or anywhere in India, the backward class (BC), actually outsmarted the forward class (FC), in 2005. Of the total of 430 open seats, for Medical Entrance, 321 seats were bagged by the BCs, 57 by MBCs, 14 by SCs and only 38 by Forward Community. Since then, the BCs are getting a significant piece of the cake without resorting to reservation. TN tears to shreds the argument of breading mediocrity. TN experience also proves that, if reservation reaches to the actual needy, they can change the situation in no more than 2 or 3 generations only.


 
Lol WTF ? If they are that competant, and constitute a huge majority of population, WHY GIVE RESERVATION IN THE FIRST PLACE ? WHY NOT FIGHT WITH THE NEW "MINORITY" ON EQUAL TERMS ?

What makes 70% of population think 30% of population can control them socially to need reservation ?


*[quite]Only a handful of BCs get the benefit. The rest is usurped by the people of the same class, but with money and power ?*

  That, people with money or power take advantage of this system, is true. There indeed are loopholes which allow a whole lot of people to take advantage of this system. This needs a thorough shake up of the system,(see below) but not discarding it altogether, just because some people are taking advantage of it. That, the backward class is slowly getting represented in almost all segment of society, is also true. That, in the very urban to semi-urban areas, the casteism has become a much watered down version of what is still practiced in rural India, is, again, true. We can’t ignore the benefits of a system because of some handful of unscrupulous men.[/quote]

A handful of unscruplous men ? WTH ?

By troubling 50% of the population if 2% benifit, while 48% abuse it, what sort of system is that ?

When the losses are more than profits, the system can't be called profitable anymore.

*



			Blame the incorrect interpretation of the “varna” system ?
		
Click to expand...

*


> May be. May be not. What is the correct interpretation of the “verna” system, is open for never ending debates. There are enough evidences in the vedas, Upanishads, smiritis etc. that support the idea of “verna” from birth. Even Gita contradicts itself on this “verna” system. In any case, it is, at the moment irrelevant, what the “correct” interpretation is. What is relevant, is how it is being perceived by the mass.
> 
> Shall “injecting” the “correct” interpretation, if at all there is any such interpretation, of “verna” system into curriculum, eventually remedy the system ? There is data, to prove, that education does little to change one’s perception of religion. People, subject to rigors of scientific studies find it difficult to let go of their personal prejudices. Not exactly, too encouraging. Besides, what shall one do to the system of injustice, that is currently in place, while we wait, for the “correct” interpretation of “verna” to take its effect.


 
Isn't India a secular country, and the varna system a product of dumb hindu ideology ?

Does the government even know what secular means ? It means indifference to religion. Instead, "indian secularism" tries to consider all religions and goof up.

If the government never gave a damn to people's religious beliefs and stopped having laws that defined "hindu marrages", "muslim divorses", "hindu adoptions", etc, India would be a much better place.

Humanitariansm is the only true "religion" if you call it, or more appropriately, a set of ways to decide certain things outside the preview of science, which can solve Indian troubles and science for all other things.

*



			Is the current system adequate ?
		
Click to expand...

*


> No. Far from it. The mechanism for reservation, at the primary level is fairly OK. But problem arises at the higher level. I personally found 2 of the suggestions, made by many sociologists, pretty interesting.
> 
> #1. Let the reservation skip a generation. Say Mr X takes the benefit of the quota system. In that case his kids won’t be eligible for quota. But his grandson would be. Now, if his grandson doesn’t take the benefit of quota, then it will pass to his great-grandson and so on. But, if he does take the benefit, then his great-grandson would become ineligible. (Something like Chinese population restriction) This will plug the loophole, where successive generations take the aide of reservation, even when there is no need for that. This will also create a necessity for one generation to try his best, not to waste his privilege.
> 
> ...



Why the fu(k should caste be given weightage In India when India is supposed to be a goddamn secular country ?

Economic reforms to education and abolishion of caste based dealings under law alone can solve the Indian cricis.

*



			Conclusion:
		
Click to expand...

*


> Reservation based on caste is needed, and will continue to be needed till a substantial portion of the BCs get represented in the society. What constitutes substantial, can be debated at length – on the basis of percentage of BCs in total population, or below poverty level, or living in rural areas or some other combination. I am open to the idea of scrapping the current mechanism. But whatever mechanism takes its place, it must give caste its due prominence.


Nope. You are wrong.
Reservation on caste will only lead to more discrimination on caste as I already said.

Education and Education alone holds the key to economic prosperity, and government grants are IMO the fairest way for the government to get everybody into the mainstream. And economic prosperity alone holds the key to social success.


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## karnivore (May 11, 2009)

Well, thank you *MetalheadGautham* for at least going through that post, although it is apparent, you haven’t quite understood, many of the points. You deserve a reply so I’ll try my best to answer all. (It looks like FAQ )

*1. If the question of discrimination "socially" does not even arise in developed India, why should developed Indians bear the brunt of reservation and give in to undeserving fools ?*

  I guess by “developed India”, you mean the cities. If that’s what you mean, then, may be a casual look at the census data will tell you, close to 90% of the population live outside these cities. (There is actually no ST in Delhi). Any rational person would be thinking for the benefit of the majority on priority basis. Besides, why do you think "discrimination socially", in the developed India doesn’t happen. Is it because they come from Mars, or is it because of the awareness. How do you think awareness has spread ?

*2. What makes you think that social representation in public sector obtained without merit and on basis of one's ancestor's identity gives social respect ?*

On one hand you agree, that there is no social discrimination in developed India, and now you are doubting if they will get social respect. Tell, me, how would you know if your next door neighbor has become, what he has become, through the help of quota. Or is it that, every time you encounter a backward class looking or sounding surname, you immediately assume that he is through quota system. This is discrimination as well.

*3.What makes you think that somebody should be pampered with facilities since his ancestors were denied it ?*

  The word “pampered” is almost an insult. Tell me, why do American Indians need far lower score at SAT to get into Harvard or MIT. It is called affirmative action.

*4. Why do you assume that almost all "reserved" classes are poverty-stricken and socially discriminated against while all "unreserved" classes are filthy rich with PS3s, GameBoys, Plasma TVs and Lots of Money ?

*Mandal Commission report, Sacchar Report, Census Reports and National Sample Survey Organisation (NSSO) Reports. Look these up, when you have time.

*5. Why should government ensure that only reserved classes get benifit of access to education easily at all levels while others should struggle doing the same ?

*Read up on the concept of affirmative action. 

*6. When the government could abolish Privy Purse and titles, why not reservation when it tries to tell that all Indians are equal and have equal status and opportunity ?*

  2000 years of systematic suppression leaves little scope for a community to be equal to the oppressor. They were/ are nowhere close to being considered equal. Not yet.

*What makes you think that economic reservation will have less effect than caste reservation ?*

  Because economic reservation doesn’t address the issue of social discrimination. Because the problem of caste is not connected to economics at all. Besides, economic reservation will have some effect if one is able to take advantage of the reservation. How will one take that advantage, if one is prevented from accessing the institute that is dolling out the reservation. What would you want to ensure first. Of course, access to the institute, e.g. school, college, universities etc.

*Are you aware that economic empowerment will result in financial security and independence ?... Financial empowerment to all brings true respect. *

  Yes, I guess. But how do you propose to economically empower the backward class without first ensuring that the tools of empowerment actually reach them.

*A dalit denied access to a temple can build his own and say STFU to the upper class people who denied access to him. *

  You are saying this, because you do not know, that dalits do have separate temples, along with separate tea stalls, food stalls, drinking wells, ponds and even roads. Its like a society within a society.

*Caste reservation sucks because once reserved, always reserved. Unlike economic reservation, where a person once poor and now rich no longer needs to be provided support by the government.*

  Agreed. Every anti-establishment becomes an establishment itself. That is why many solutions have been provided, and I have narrated just two of the interesting ones. All proposed by anti-reservationists, btw.

*…in future, upper castes can face ire of lower castes if they are not financially secure. *

Agreed. Reverse discrimination can be a reality. That’s why at the end of my post, the one you were replying to, I have myself pointed out, that it can’t go on forever. The question of how much is good enough, needs to be addressed.

  But the reason is not financial insecurity. Current discrimination is also not based on financial reasons. This is something some member just can’t get a grip on. Financial insecurity has its own evils. Those can be addressed through economic empowerment, as you are saying. But how do you propose to address discrimination that is based only on caste.

*Instead of just loans, India can follow a methord used in National University of Singapore, where a student works for a certain number of years in a national company (call it a government company in India) to pay back for free education, but selection takes place solely on basis of merit and not on basis of who his parents are.*

  I didn’t know if Singapore, or for that matter, anywhere in the world, has caste system, where people are judged on the basis of his birth. The problem is unique to India. While we can look at various countries for options, the uniqueness mustn’t be forgotten.

  Anyway, student loans in India are very flexible as well. You don’t have to furnish security for such loans, in most cases, and can start repaying only when you start earning. Even income tax benefit is available for this.

*Firstly, a majority of such universities suck and unless the student is good enough, he can't get a job from them.*

  Doesn’t matter. The question is of getting admitted into these colleges. Isn’t quota in colleges all about getting admitted ?

*Next, its a matter of pride in a way. A poor student can study and become rich and his children live more comfortably and get easy seats here, at the same time a rich boy can become poor and his kids can suffer later. This means this kind of reservation is not tied to one's birth but at something else. Something which someone makes himself or with help of his family.*

  The question is regarding the so called merit, not the flexibility of reservation. If someone is getting admitted this way, then clearly merit is not in consideration here (this is a counter argument to “merit shall be the only criteria”). Whether he was poor before and rich now, is irrelevant. 

*Besides, what makes you think that some of the reputed private universities which have NRI quota don't give scholarships ? I would rather milk some rich students to help poorer students and improve infrastructure than give seats to undeserving students who neither bring good to the collage in terms of moolah, nor have they got as much merit as others.*

  You clearly don’t know how NRI seats are distributed. 

*And again, the system of "government grants" as I said before can help here. Poor students if they are asked Rs. 8 lakhs for a BE, they can get help from government for work in government office at slightly lesser pay for a minimum fixed no. of years. While government benifits here by getting work done for lesser money (as long as min no. of years of work is high enough), students benifit by getting degree and also a job.*

  First, govt. colleges are heavily subsidized. Second, student loan exists.

*Lol WTF ? If they are that competant, and constitute a huge majority of population, WHY GIVE RESERVATION IN THE FIRST PLACE ? WHY NOT FIGHT WITH THE NEW "MINORITY" ON EQUAL TERMS ?

What makes 70% of population think 30% of population can control them socially to need reservation ?

*Finding it hard to believe ? Look up. And btw, this is the outcome of almost 40 yrs of reservation. And you want to abolish it just when it is yielding result. In any case, the cut off marks for FCs and OBCs have been made the same.

*By troubling 50% of the population if 2% benifit, while 48% abuse it, what sort of system is that ?*

  Do you have data to support your accusation. Personal anecdotes or stories you have heard from family members or from friends, or friends’ friend or friends’ friends’ friend do not constitute data.

*When the losses are more than profits, the system can't be called profitable anymore.*

What is the measure of profit in this case ?

*Isn't India a secular country, and the varna system a product of dumb hindu ideology ?*

  Correct.
*
Does the government even know what secular means ? It means indifference to religion. Instead, "indian secularism" tries to consider all religions and goof up.*

  Do you know what is the exact hindi translation of the word secular. Nothing. Do you know how it has been translated in hindi, in our constitution. "PANTHNIRPEKSH" and not, as many think, "DHARMANIRAPEKSH". Read up. Indian secularism isn’t exclusive as European system. It is inclusive. In any case we are deviating.
*
If the government never gave a damn to people's religious beliefs and stopped having laws that defined "hindu marrages", "muslim divorses", "hindu adoptions", etc, India would be a much better place.*

  Agreed. But you need to learn the meaning of affirmative action, to actually understand why our govt, like the govt. of US, does what it does. 

*Humanitariansm is the only true "religion"…*

  And yet you choose to be anti-reservationist. Words are not matching. Anyway, its better if we keep our emotions outside the scope of this debate.

*Why the fu(k should caste be given weightage In India when India is supposed to be a goddamn secular country ?
*
 At the risk of sounding repetitive, it is because of something called affirmative action, correcting the past.

*Economic reforms to education and abolishion of caste based dealings under law alone can solve the Indian cricis.*

  Agreed on reforms to education and caste based dealings are already banned.

*Reservation on caste will only lead to more discrimination on caste as I already said.*

  You have also implied, just like many, that social discrimination in the urban areas is almost non-existent. I don’t see your assertions are matching your own matter-of-fact statements.

*Education and Education alone holds the key to economic prosperity…*

  Unless, you are implying that education is something that falls from sky, how do you ensure, that the backward class be brought to the class room. Btw, do you really think education helps removing illogical ideas. Just take a peak in “Science vs God” thread.
================
EDIT: Congrats, you have become a mod now. Party time.


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## karnivore (May 11, 2009)

gopi_vbboy said:


> way of saying so called socially oppressed hav right to take so called revenge...


Really. 



> but i again say u r still thinking narrow mindedly...*half of the pro-reservation activists are hypocrites*....


What about the anti-reservationists. They are, perhaps, saints.



> dont understand wat they saying emosionally...jus say wat they need without thinking of others...its not the way to go....all i say is this will result in discrimination for sure...untill reserv is based on economic status not caste eliminating creamy layer


Yes. This is the best policy. Turn your back to the fire and start wishing it is not there. Hmmm...you remind of someone.


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## mediator (May 11, 2009)

^Hi, I only wonder when you'll "reason" on your numerous exposed flaws and contradictions, instead of propounding your beliefs!!?? You left your examples incomplete!


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## linkin park (May 11, 2009)

those who say reservation should end live in a make believe world of their own ,we live in a democratic society  where governments are formed and (deformed ?)by votes; policy of reservation how much irrational it may be will continue to exist because no political party can openly stand against it,no politician can speak against it,if courts come to your rescue these pigheaded politicians will and nullify the order of the court as has been done time and again by them.
it  should end we should work for a caste less and ofcourse classless society ,the policy of reservation has thrown up a new class of elite.


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## linkin park (May 11, 2009)

no


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## karnivore (May 11, 2009)

mediator said:


> ^Hi, I only wonder when you'll "reason" on your numerous exposed flaws and contradictions, instead of propounding your beliefs!!?? You left your examples incomplete!


Read post #70 and #79. Everything has been answered. All your points have been countered. Use your aptitude.

Problem is that you don't like debating. You like arguing. My word versus your words, yours versus mine. But I am going to disappoint you this time, because, I will try to stay away from arguments, as much as I can, and I am certainly, not going to argue on peripheral matters.

Don't worry about my examples. They are as good as they can be. Only that, you missed the point, and glossed over irrelevant areas. Exactly the same way that you didn't realise, that in one earlier post, I used IITs to represent institutionalized quality education, you missed what the numbers 19,000 represent.


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## mediator (May 12, 2009)

^I have read both of your posts which represent nuthing but the same old repeated flaws and contradictions which obviously you have chosen to neglect, "not to debate and reason on" and counter. Thats actually a nice way of saying that "I have answered your post". Besides, I'm not just debating with you but with the WHOLE squad of reservationists. Everyone can read the posts. But, it seems you have invented a new technique of circumventing the issue and points by repeating the same old ones in a new format and saying, "All your points have been countered" ?? I guess you wasted three posts in repetition, the time wasted,  which could have been saved by "reasoning" on the backlog of your flaws.


I hoped you'd bring up more points and reason with the flow that was well established. I dunno how many times I have  removed the misunderstandings of cast system and yet you quote sloka from manusmriti. Next, I showered enlightenment in post #61 for you. And once again, you reflected the same ignorance in that post #70 speaking of varnasystem in an ignorant view??

If you are trying to fool anyone, then its only yourself. And again with TN example, you are not "removing the line", but drawing it "darker" and ignoring the "root cause" ALL OVER AGAIN AND AGAIN! 

Replying to other in the most appropriate way is called a debate. But "only propounding" your own beliefs and not listening/replying to others is called "trolling"!! So both my posts #61 and #76 remain UNANSWERED. Repeat if you like, post the same flaws and ignore me, if thats a new trick of yours to say "I'm still in the game". So instead of explaining yourself and wasting posts you could have done better. So "prove", if you can, "how everything has been answered" by quoting the posts #61 and #76!! "Reason", instead of repeating the same flaws and your contradictory "beliefs".


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## rhitwick (May 12, 2009)

@Mediator...booo hooo hoo
for the last one and half our I was writing reply for u. At least one page would have filled...
and my firefox crashed while opening some links which thought would be useful for u.

Jah, aur kuch nahi bolna hai tujhe......*s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj44/visio159/Unismilies/107large.png


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## mediator (May 12, 2009)

^As a friend I can advise you to use, Linux and gedit  and not to waste time specially for me. Frankly, I'm honoured and appreciate it! And since our friend has chosen to betray us, I was expecting some good news ONLY from you. *www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-hug008.gif

chaliye, @linkin park se sahmat hote hain, kyunki in sabhya aur sushil ghar ke mantriyon se ham kabi ni jeet sakte


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## rhitwick (May 12, 2009)

I waited d whole day for this, prepared and reprepared it and...sh1t..I'm outta here....
May be some other day, in veryyy short.


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## mediator (May 12, 2009)

You are right. Even I'm bored! My opponents are speaking the same distorted definition of cast system and treating me like 'untouchable'.  Bana aap hi hamare sache dost hain


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## trigger (May 12, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> Don't you see ? Only the best are given preference. Even a slightest difference in performance is considered when talking about merit. I just phailed IIT-JEE and AIEEE but I am not complaining. Why ? Because somebody was better than me and they got the ranks.


 
same case here, i too phailed JEE, but the reason was different in both cases. The Reservation..


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## karnivore (May 12, 2009)

Don’t know why I always get sucked into this. This the reply to your post #61. I will only respond to your reply, if I find there is something worth responding to. So stop begging.


mediator said:


> I'm simply saying that you are keeping the "evils of casteism" alive by telling the world again and again of "what" the casteism is…


  Really, you think its only because of us that the world knows about casteism. Did you know that a form reservation on the basis of caste, existed at least 30 good years before our independence. That makes the existence of this system even older than our country.

  If you claim, that you got to know about casteism only because of reservation issue, then you were living under a rock. That is your problem, not mine.


> So what you are saying that in modern society if a policeman rapes a girl, then policeman should be ignored and even the steps to "eradicate" such sin also should be ignored BUT steps should be taken for "some theoretical" improvement of girl? How bizarre??


  I told you, you are not good with metaphors. I understand, policeman is the metaphor for forward class, and the rape victim is for, backward class. What you do not know, as you have previously claimed bliss in ignorance, is there exists something called Rape Trauma Syndrome. Women need serious attention just to get over it and to bring them into normal life. Rape Trauma is the effect of rape, a criminal offence. The systematic oppression of the backward class, is in a way equivalent to this trauma. This oppression is the effect of caste system, a social crime. Just as a rape victim needs to be treated with much sensitivity and care, the socially oppressed needs a helping hand, with equal sensitivity. That’s what reservation does.

  Reservation, doesn’t seek to punish the perpetrators, because that is a separate issue – issue of law and order, outside the scope of reservation. It is adequately addressed through laws, more precisely Criminal Procedure Code. Like, discriminating against a person on basis of race, caste, creed or religion is a criminal offence under penal code. There is also Atrocities Act.

  If you had read post #70, “the purpose of reservation”, your query would have been answered. But as always, you need to be spoon fed.

  It is actually a shame, that an educated person call the improvement of a rape victim, as “some theoretical”. 


> Don't you think that some laws should be present and implemented actively to "punish" that teacher (in ur example) or to prevent such crimes from happening in the first place? We don't want to "just wish these away", but "to actively work for the eradication of it".


  That teacher was punished. Laws exist. 


> *www.hinduwisdom.info/articles_hinduism/283.htm


  Do you expect me to review an entire web page ? This would require separate thread. May be someday I will get around to do that. In any case it is irrelevant.

  Read post #70, “Blame the incorrect interpretation of the “varna” system*”*


> Stating as "Brahminism", again tells about your ignorance on the "varna system". I don't know how much you really know about Hinduism, but do you know Parshuram's story? The era when Kshatriyas tried to establish their total control? What will you call it, "kshatriyism"? And so today I guess, lower casts are njoying all the luxuries and merit takes a backseat. What is this? Shudraism?
> … Cast is not a direct result of "brahminism", but how misunderstandings have happened.


  Which Parashurama are you talking here? The one that I know of, is a mythical character. Are now basing your arguments on myths. And which era of Kshatriyas are you talking of ? As far as I know, men have been fighting ever since they settled down, first for territory and women and then for money.

  By brahminism, I meant the rise of the Brahmins, circa 8 century BCE, where, every aspect of life got governed by the dictates of these Brahmins. The reason why historians call that “brahminism” (some call it “vedic brahminism”) is because, it was during that time, that the various texts got interpreted, in the way that the barhmins wanted to, for their benefit ,and got imposed on the society. It was during that time, that all the evils in Hindu society that you see today, got certified by the Brahmins. (It is incidentally the era that saw the demise of Buddhism as well.) 

  Funny part is, post after post, you have tried to say, that Brahmins, the fake ones, misinterpreted the varna system. But when I used a different terminology to say almost the same thing, you started to question the veracity of my arguments. Not only that, you have gone so far to even reject brahminism, not knowing that you are actually refuting your own argument. You say now, it is a result of “misunderstandings”. Previously, and again later you claimed of misinterpreting the scripts. Now can you tell me who misinterpreted or misunderstood the texts, given the fact that only Brahmins were qualified to interpret the Vedas. And when did this happen ?

  A simple change in nomenclature tripped you over. Clearly, you are neither reading things in the right context nor are you debating. You are just arguing for argument’s sake. It also shows the vacuity of your arguments.


> If dalits can convert to christianity by showing the ills of cast system by the missionaries, then why can't they changed their cast?


  I really don’t know how to answer that. Once you are born into a caste, you will always be considered to belong to that caste, no matter what name you adopt. That’s how the society at large perceives cast system. By changing name, you just change your identity. You don’t change the perception of the society. 

  Besides, you are probably not aware, that even though the dalits are converting to run away from their cast, they still can’t shake off their caste. They continue to be considered as dalits, by their Hindu neighbours, even though they are no longer Hindus. They are perpetually caught between the devil and the deep sea. You have probably never heard of something like Backward Caste Christians (BCC), or Backward Caste Muslims (BCM), have you ?


> me said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  You tell me. You are the one who is expecting that “injecting” correct interpretation of varna system, into the education, will make everything fine and dandy. And here you are claiming, rather admitting, that “the presence of science and modern thoughts” do not prevent “the superstitions and all the marriages of children to dogs and frogs”. You are providing counter arguments to your own arguments. Hilarious.

  Also, you made a naive assertion, that by changing name one can change his caste and I have only pointed out that, had it been the case, there wouldn’t have been any caste around – meaning, it doesn’t. By saying that in spite of existence of scientific education, superstitions can’t be removed from the psyche, you are essentially saying, that by changing name, the caste system can’t be removed, thereby contradicting your own assertion, bolstering mine.

  This is another example of how you argue, word vs word. The context becomes irrelevant to you. 


> The problem is that you are defining the sufferings on the basis of cast which is itself flawed.


  I am not defining ALL sufferings as result of caste. I am defining only those sufferings that result from caste. I have made a clear distinction between discrimination arising from economic backwardness, and the discrimination that arises, specifically due to caste. Don’t project your inability to make such a distinction.

  Read post#70, “Economic reservation better”


> The "majority" that you stated also comprises of brahmins, kshatriyas etc, which I guess that you agree on that they suffer. I hope u understand that majority that lives under the poverty line isn't exclusive of brahmins and kshatriyas.


  I thought, “majority” means maximum. It is beyond me, how can more than ONE be in majority. If backward class is in majority, under which law of statistics, would Brahmins and kshatryias, also be a part of majority.

  Another example of how blindly you just argue, only for argument’s sake.

  As per NSSO 1999-2000 report, the percentage of population living under poverty level are:
  ST – 46 in rural, 35 in urban
  SC – 36 in rural, 38 in urban
  OBC – 27 in rural, 29 in urban
  Hindu Upper Class – 12 in rural, 9 in urban.



> me said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  Exactly how does, non-existence of STs in Delhi, bolsters your point i.e. “to eradicate the root cause of the problem”, unless you are implying the physical removal of backward class from cities. That STs are not there, in Delhi, has historical reasons. But given your bliss, in ignorance, I expect comments like these.


> But you know, our suffering is that we are "made to understand" as to what the "OBC, SC/ST" is by the crappy reservation system and to generate a mental picture of human stupidity.


  You are kidding me. Over 70% of SC and 80% of ST live in rural areas and you are basing your judgment on your exclusive city experience. If you are “suffering” due to information, then it is your problem, that you prefer living in a cave.


> What worse is that we get to witness the "reactions" (i.e reservation) on that stupidity which isn't concentrated on the root causes, but just to blast meritocracy from the face of earth. And so we see one stupidity is being encountered by another ignoring the root problem as to "who" started the discrimination, let alone the punishments!!


  To quote Andre Beteille, “Today, the Constitution of India provides a blueprint for an egalitarian society. The Constitution is not based on the premise of hierarchy, but on the premise of equality. But of course, you do not just erase or cancel out age-old inequalities simply by adopting new principles in a Constitution. So what else has to be done in order to reduce the inequalities of the past? This is what affirmative action or positive discrimination addresses itself to. The object is to reduce the level of inequality in a society which has had a hierarchical order over a very long period of time. Affirmative action or positive discrimination was not the only major programme adopted when the country became independent and created a Constitution based on the premise of equality. For example, there was a massive programme of agrarian reform which was also designed to give greater thrust to the pursuit of equality. I would say that these were the two main programmes – agrarian reform and affirmative action – designed to improve the conditions of what came to be known as the backward classes in Indian society.”​Mr Andre Beteille, is a vocal anti-quota activist. He, along with Sam Petroda, resigned from the Knowledge Committee in 2006, to protest against, govt’s decision to increase quota.


> I think I'm seeing what I expected to see that you are again going after the "ideal" definitions and scenarios that in reality are contridictory to its purpose!!


  Ideal definitions? Where ? Which one? Contradictory to its purpose ? Where is the data ? Tamil Nadu experience is just the opposite of what you have argued so far. Success of the American system of affirmative action, is another example.


> You know recently supreme court ordered to list and define "who all are OBCs". Do you know why it stated that??


  Yes, I do. But do you ?


> Just by repeatedly stating that "SC/St, OBC" etc are backward classes, you are actually drawing yourself away from the reality and picturing the reality as a kind of myth.


  So now, SC/ST, OBCs status as backward classes is “myth”. Because of your Delhi experience. Wonderful.


> me said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  What are you babbling here. No body gives any right to anybody. Some rights are just fundamental, which you get just by being born, e.g. freedom. Indian constitution further guarantees the right to education. You and I are stealing that right, in the name of caste. It is because, that there rights are being denied, the govt. has the reservation policy, to ensure, that they get their rights. The deniers are indeed punished, not substantially though. (Most of the cases of atrocities aren’t registered with the police, most of those which are registered aren’t dealt with)



> And then, going by your "ideal" definition, I guess, all those OBCs and SC/STs who ride bike in colleges with fancy and faded jeans, "should have 'ideally' been denied the right to purchase* by the higher class"?? How did they purchase the bikes and all the fancies then?


  And city experience exactly corresponds to rural life, where the substantial portion of these people live. Right. Just because you have seen some ray-ban wearing, bike wielding, mall hopping dalits, the majority, living in the rural areas, facing discrimination, automatically gets nullified. So govt. should now on base its policy on what the city dwellers are thinking and doing, and forget, the remaining close to 90% of the people. You would probably not even know, how condescending it sounds.


> Personally, ( yes in Delhi ) I know many. To show you an example, I guess, again an exception, Mayawati is enough, let alone her dalit "relatives" and "friends"!! You think her blood relations won't be rich? Open the TV and watch her live making her own idols. Its not a golden rule that I'm presenting what seems like an exception to you.
> 
> And I humbly request you to goto all the colleges in your constituency and get a list of the so called "socially backward classes" yourself and match if your idealistic words match the reality. I bet you'll be shocked!!


  And I humbly request you to go through the census data of 2001 and NSSO report 2004-2005.


> Forget the reality, even if a "percentage of rich dalits" is less w.r.t to total no. of dalits, then also don't you think the merit is being discriminated and "equal competition" being reduced??


  No. Not at all.


> And law should be used to make sure that ..
> A. they are not denied their right, and
> B. Everyone gets "equal" rights
> C. The discriminator be punished appropriately!!


  A. Reservation ensures that.
  B. Or, bring down the level of inequality.
  c. Law exists, but hardly implemented.


> Your example has already assumed that
> 1. the guy is a dalit.
> 2. He ranked beyong 19000
> 
> ...


  First, your assumption about my assumption is just that, your assumptions. Not mine.

  Second, read that example, one more time. 

  The whole point of the example was that the so called “merit” is a farce. Person scoring 19,000th rank would be considered not so meritorious compared to the ones who are, say within top 100. It is irrelevant, if he is dalit or general class. Now, if this dude is not a dalit, but a general class, he still gets admission to a college. A private, sucky one. However, if this dude is a dalit, he also gets admission to a college. A better college, due to reservation. In the former scenario, no question about merit will be raised. But in the later scenario, question of merit will be raised, just because, he is taking the route of reservation. In both the cases, though, they are of same merit.

Strange, here you find, "past performance" to be adequate to break tie. But when I suggested this very factor to be considered to determine reservation, you went into a severe seizure.


> That remains your own "belief" and yet again you are not talking of "who is affecting the dalit", but simply saying "dalit is affected"!


  Who do you think is affecting the dalit ?


> Talking about Harvard, all I would say is that I would favour "equal competition" anyday instead of feeling high by going through some illogical and corrupt form of admission that I won't even call a competition.


  You really think, that relaxation of SAT scores impedes completion at Harvard ? Or just arguing for argument’s sake ? You just don’t know how to fit this Harvard syndrome in your convoluted scheme of things.


> You know why IITs and IIMs and corporates are against reservation? Its all about quality and by that it doesn't mean OBC/SC/St etc lack quality and it surely doesn't mean that these institutions are against the poor or the so called "socially backward class" that you point to.


  Do you have any clue how IITs and IIMs recruit. Does anybody know about their recruitment policies ?


> And what exactly happens to a middle class or rich guy who gets beyond 19,000 rank? A social injustice for him too? So, Who denied them the right? The IITs and IIMs treated everyone "equally" and "gave" them "equal chance".


  Lets assume there is no reservation. Do you still suggest that everyone would get admission to all colleges. Would you still blame that “a middle class or rich guy” faced social injustice, just because he didn’t get admission. Infrastructural limitations can hardly be called social injustice. That was one point that I had raised earlier.


> "Denying" is certainly not the word I would use. It would be most appropriate to call it a "denial" if they were denied of taking the exam itself. Don't mind but I guess the number of contradictions and flaws in your posts have gone weigh too much now.


  Not sure I got the context of “denying” vs “denial”.


> My post was clear enough. But neways, read the story of the IIt again
> *www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv...WEN20080052137


  Again, exception. 


> Like I said, the concept of "threshold" is itself flawed and misused. Financial relaxation should be given after verifying the income sources of the family be in cash or in assets. Desperate measures can be taken for the desperate ones, lighter measures for those who need a few facilties etc. And its not something that cannot be accomplished!!


  Don’t know where to begin. Without a “threshold” how does one determine where to stop ? If “income sources of family” is made the criteria, how does one determine, which “income source” requires financial aide. Also, how do you measure “desperation” ? 


> Again you are "not removing the plight", but simply creating "more plight".


  Elaborate.


> A. You have a distorted idea of the varna system.


  I have not. But it is irrelevant to the discussion.


> B. The reservation you favour creates "certified" categories which are far more dangerous than the human imagined ones which were a byproduct of misunderstandings.


  How does reservation create “certified categories” and how are they dangerous.


> C. You are "ignoring" the root cause of the problem which needs to be eradicated and ignoring the discriminator in ALL YOUR EXAMPLES.


  Eradicating the “root cause” is not the scope of reservation. Its scope is reducing the level of inequality that exists due to a couple of thousand years of oppression, by ensuring certain rights. Its like expecting a sledgehammer to work like a spade.


> D. The fundamentally flawed and self-contradicting reservation itself discriminates against "equal competition" and the spirit of merit, which generates a spirit of competition and a thirst among ALL THE STUDENTS to STUDY and do well.


  As of now, you haven’t been able provide single data to back up your accusation. While data, contradicting you, exist. If “equal completion” and “the spirit of merit” were hampered, then Harvard today wouldn’t have been what it is. Then in Tamil Nadu, wouldn’t have registered so many backward class in the merit list.


> E. CBSE course which consists of 70% questions repeated, is a part of "past performance" and not even anywhere near to the IITs paper which consists of "surprises" in terms of nature of questions and number of questions.


  So ? Whats the point ?


> F. You have taken "biased" assumptions like, the 19000+ rank might be a dalit while totally ignoring the number of dalits within 19000 rank. Like I said, inappropriate assumptions lead to a false theory.


  You are neither good at constructing metaphors, nor are you cable enough to understand one. On second thought, it is because you don’t understand metaphors, you can’t construct one.


> G. You are confusing non-selection (during admission round) with denial.


  Where ?


> H. You think Mayawati and others are the only rich dalits which reflects as to how much you need to sample the colleges and gather your own "real" data instead of "ideal definitions".


  And when are you going to sample the rural India ?


----------



## mediator (May 12, 2009)

karnivore said:
			
		

> Really, you think its only because of us that the world knows about casteism. Did you know that a form reservation on the basis of caste, existed at least 30 good years before our independence. That makes the existence of this system even older than our country.
> 
> If you claim, that you got to know about casteism only because of reservation issue, then you were living under a rock. That is your problem, not mine.


I think you forgot that Britishers were there in our country practising "Divide and rule" of all forms. This again shows how much you shy from reading the distortions and misunderstanding I presented. Try to read atleast once.
*www.hinduwisdom.info/articles_hinduism/283.htm




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> I told you, you are not good with metaphors. I understand, policeman is the metaphor for forward class, and the rape victim is for, backward class. What you do not know, as you have previously claimed bliss in ignorance, is there exists something called Rape Trauma Syndrome. Women need serious attention just to get over it and to bring them into normal life. Rape Trauma is the effect of rape, a criminal offence. The systematic oppression of the backward class, is in a way equivalent to this trauma. This oppression is the effect of caste system, a social crime. Just as a rape victim needs to be treated with much sensitivity and care, the socially oppressed needs a helping hand, with equal sensitivity. That’s what reservation does.
> 
> If you had read post #70, “the purpose of reservation”, your query would have been answered. But as always, you need to be spoon fed.
> 
> It is actually a shame, that an educated person call the improvement of a rape victim, as “some theoretical”.


And I told you a 1000 times that you are really bad at logic.

My example of policeman was to SHOWCASE how you are IGNORING the root cause of the problem. It seems you have made a habit to deliberately insert the cast factor. She could have been a dalit or a brahmin. She could have been rich or poor. You have assumed a lot of incorrect factors it seems that clouds your vision of the picture AS A WHOLE. We need to "eradicate" the the very cause, the very perception that becomes the "start" of the crime, so as to bring STRICT discipline so that the "start disappears". And so, ONCE again, you have NEGLECTED the root cause and telling us the definitions and consequences of the actions.

We want to stop the rape in general, and you are talking of the cast. She could have been a foreigner, a chinese, a black, an alien. Read the example again! 

I told you to classify and differentiate between "actions and reactions, system and the external factors influencing that system". And hence once again you are flawed in your logic. 




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> *Reservation, doesn’t seek to punish the perpetrators*, because that is a separate issue – issue of law and order, outside the scope of reservation. It is adequately addressed through laws, more precisely Criminal Procedure Code. Like, discriminating against a person on basis of race, caste, creed or religion is a criminal offence under penal code. There is also Atrocities Act.


And thats what I'm exactly saying. Instead of punishing the perpetrators or removing the "root cause", it is simply defining the line darker and discrminating against the merit i.e it is creating more problems and has become one of the factors of BRAIN DRAIN.



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> That teacher was punished. Laws exist.


Only when media stepped in? Is the teacher punished everywhere where media is blind? Remember, law can only help when its boundaries are reached. If policeman is not registering the complaint, inspite of steps taken for dalit improvements, then what can one do? Shouldn't we be actively and strictly applying those laws? While a poor dalit or a poor man is "denied" of his right, the rich dalit or rich man can use police as a tool. It again shows how reservation IS NOT ERADICATING THE ROOT CAUSE and instead becomes a flawed system "in concept".







			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> *Do you expect me to review an entire web page ?* This would require separate thread. May be someday I will get around to do that. *In any case it is irrelevant.*
> 
> Read post #70, “Blame the incorrect interpretation of the “varna” system”





			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Blame the incorrect interpretation of the “varna” system ?
> 
> May be. May be not. What is the correct interpretation of the “verna” system, is open for never ending debates. *There are enough evidences in the vedas, Upanishads, smiritis etc. that support the idea of “verna” from birth. Even Gita contradicts itself on this “verna” system.* In any case, it is, at the moment irrelevant, what the “correct” interpretation is. What is relevant, is how it is being perceived by the mass.
> 
> Shall “injecting” the “correct” interpretation, if at all there is any such interpretation, of “verna” system into curriculum, eventually remedy the system ? There is data, to prove, that education does little to change one’s perception of religion. People, subject to rigors of scientific studies find it difficult to let go of their personal prejudices. Not exactly, too encouraging. Besides, what shall one do to the system of injustice, that is currently in place, while we wait, for the “correct” interpretation of “verna” to take its effect.


If your ignorance and the vast amount of repetitions that has a terra firma on something distorted and misunderstood, then I believe it would be really wise "to review the entire web page". If you think it is irrelevant, then I think you are only trolling here. The line in bolds only shows that..

1. You are completely ignorant and the VARNA system
2. You are reluctant to read about the truth.
3. You like to "follow" from the reads of the ignorant critics only. I wonder if you dodged the enlightenment about Max Mueller, Griffith etc also. 




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Which Parashurama are you talking here? The one that I know of, is a mythical character. Are now basing your arguments on myths. And which era of Kshatriyas are you talking of ? As far as I know, men have been fighting ever since they settled down, first for territory and women and then for money.


Treat him as a mythical character if you like. I have no qualms. But it seems you are a "firm believer" in the distorted cast system, as so obvious from your reluctance to know the truth about it.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> *By brahminism, I meant the rise of the Brahmins, circa 8 century BCE, where, every aspect of life got governed by the dictates of these Brahmins.* The reason why historians call that “brahminism” (some call it “vedic brahminism”) is because, it was during that time, that the various texts got interpreted, in the way that the barhmins wanted to, for their benefit ,and got imposed on the society. It was during that time, that all the evils in Hindu society that you see today, got certified by the Brahmins. (It is incidentally the era that saw the demise of Buddhism as well.)


And by kshatriyaism, I meant the same.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Funny part is, post after post, you have tried to say, that Brahmins, the fake ones, misinterpreted the varna system. But when I used a different terminology to say almost the same thing, you started to question the veracity of my arguments. Not only that, you have gone so far to even reject brahminism, not knowing that you are actually refuting your own argument. You say now, it is a result of “misunderstandings”. Previously, and again later you claimed of misinterpreting the scripts. Now can you tell me who misinterpreted or misunderstood the texts, given the fact that only Brahmins were qualified to interpret the Vedas. And when did this happen ?


The funny part is that you don't even understand the meaning of a brahmin. A Brahmin who distorts the scriptures for his own selfish agendas IS NOT A BRAHMIN BY KARMA.

First, No body knows "when" Vedas orginated. The scriptures tell that they were passed orally.
Second, Vedas are known to be compiled in "written form" around 5000 B.C.
Third, manusmriti is estimated to be composed near about 200 AD, Yajnavalkya Dharma Sutra in 350 AD, Mitaksara in 1100 AD, Parasar Smriti in 1300 AD and Dayabhag in 1500 AD. 
Fourth, Vedas clearly talk of Varna system by karma. Go read the link. It has distortions clearly busted!!
Fifth, Manusmriti itself yields supremacy to Vedas and vedas overrides everything in it.
Sixth, The era of corrupt brahmins agrees with your statement i.e "*the rise of the Brahmins*, circa 8 century BCE", i.e the era when manusmriti was compiled.

Once again, you clarified that you know nothing about the distortions, mistranslatons and misundertsandings of the scriptures. Try to read the link, so as to save me and yourself and everyone else who is getting bored of reading the repetitions and the flawed theories ("by birth") which again give rise to "super flawed theories" (reservation).



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> A simple change in nomenclature tripped you over. Clearly, you are neither reading things in the right context nor are you debating. You are just arguing for argument’s sake. It also shows the vacuity of your arguments.


Funny, instead of improving your posts after admitting of your mistake of not reading the source itself, you are actually accusing me? 




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> I really don’t know how to answer that. Once you are born into a caste, you will always be considered to belong to that caste, no matter what name you adopt. That’s how the society at large perceives cast system. By changing name, you just change your identity. You don’t change the perception of the society.
> 
> Besides, you are probably not aware, that even though the dalits are converting to run away from their cast, they still can’t shake off their caste. They continue to be considered as dalits, by their Hindu neighbours, even though they are no longer Hindus. They are perpetually caught between the devil and the deep sea. *You have probably never heard of something like Backward Caste Christians (BCC), or Backward Caste Muslims (BCM), have you ?*


I know about the discriminations in other faiths and I understand your point. But it seems you don't realise that "how" these dalits are "availed" everything when their "economic status improves". The "root cause of the problem" and the "sense of perception and habit of looking down upon" remains the same "for other dalits", or I would like to say "other poor people". The scenario in Delhi completely busts your belief of "born into caste, always a caste". If Delhi can succeed, then so can the whole of India. It only shows how pessimistic you are, while I'm showing optimism and even stating the steps to deal with it.

And once again, your post clearly shouts HOW YOU ARE IGNORING THE ROOT CAUSE which become irrespective of cast. A poor is discrminated irrespective of his/her cast, while the rich njoys the facilties and mocks the laws. 



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> You tell me. You are the one who is expecting that “injecting” correct interpretation of varna system, into the education, will make everything fine and dandy. And here you are claiming, rather admitting, that “the presence of science and modern thoughts” do not prevent “the superstitions and all the marriages of children to dogs and frogs”. You are providing counter arguments to your own arguments. Hilarious.


Wrong again! All I'm saying is that the "awareness" hasn't reached the point, the point that I have been "championing" all along. Or did you forget that?

The "awareness" of science has not reached the "remote corners" of India where children are married to dogs and frogs and similarly the awareness or the truth of the varna system is invisible to the masses who most of the times "like to follow the corrupt pandits" and exhibit the "herd behaviour". It is this very "awarness" that I was talking to "inject" into NCERT and showcase by media.



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Also, you made a naive assertion, that by changing name one can change his caste and I have only pointed out that, had it been the case, there wouldn’t have been any caste around – meaning, it doesn’t. By saying that in spite of existence of scientific education, superstitions can’t be removed from the psyche, you are essentially saying, that by changing name, the caste system can’t be removed, thereby contradicting your own assertion, bolstering mine.


And again you proved how bad you are at logic.

A person BCD asks and "only asks", "How can science explain everything?" and CDE says, "You are saying Science can't explain everything". Understand your flaw?

All I said => if cast was a major factor and by birth was a part of "social discrmination", then "what stopped them from changing surnames"??? The next point is again about awareness!



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> *I am not defining ALL sufferings as result of caste. I am defining only those sufferings that result from caste.* I have *made a clear distinction between discrimination arising from economic backwardness*, and the discrimination that arises, specifically due to caste. Don’t project your inability to make such a distinction.


And thats why asked what a about a poor Non-OBC,non-SC/ST person who is "denied" a hospital admission, respect from police etc? Clearly, the "ideals" and "concepts" of economic and social backwardness mixed with reality has blinded and confused you. A socially backward "*tagged*" person 'may or may not' be "socially discrminated". Whereas an economically backward person is "denied", "discrminated" and "treated inferior" most of the times. 





			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> I thought, “majority” means maximum. It is beyond me, how can more than ONE be in majority. *If backward class is in majority*, under which law of statistics, would Brahmins and kshatryias, also be a part of majority.
> 
> Another example of how blindly you just argue, only for argument’s sake.
> 
> ...


I guess its the banner of "below poverty level" that I was talking of that many brahmins and kshatriyas also do come under and aren't exclusive of it. Is reservation applicable to all of them? If no why such partiality? If yes, then again it shows how reservation is drawing the boundaries further, creating more and more categories, cast defined and then "certificate/tagged" defined IGNORING THEROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Exactly how does, non-existence of STs in Delhi, bolsters your point i.e. “to eradicate the root cause of the problem”, unless you are implying the physical removal of backward class from cities. That STs are not there, in Delhi, has historical reasons. But given your bliss, in ignorance, I expect comments like these.


If you don't have a valid point, then simply stop.

Firstly, For even a teenager knows how people from "all walks, all regions, all faiths etc" are entering Delhi like atleast 1000 per day for various reasons. They come and get dissolved in the chaos of the city. Those who discrminated, breath the air, get used to it, demolarise and stop discrminating and become part of the captial. Those who do are in turn looked down upon for their "discrminatory" behaviour and hence it becomes the first step in "eradication of the root cause". Here also, "most" of the times, a person is discrminated only when he is poor.

Delh is the crime capital of India too. A maid is not slapped or raped because she is a dalit. Police doesn't checks the complete family history before doing discrmination or taking goose instead of "challans". If you have political backing, police is at your knees. If you are rich, police behaviour is seen. If you are poor, police becomes a wolf. ALL of that => IRRESPECTIVE of cast i.e the factor of "cast" is almost null. But the "finance factor" is BIG and Real!! 

Secondly, imagining and confusing "the spread of awareness, application of strict norms and laws in the society for the eradication of the root cause etc", with "physical removal of the backward class" agains states the bad logic arising from bad comprehension in your post. When did I exactly stated the "removal part" that you even imagined of it?  

So once again, you add to the backlog of your flaws.



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> You are kidding me. Over 70% of SC and 80% of ST live in rural areas and you are basing your judgment on your exclusive city experience. If you are “suffering” due to information, then it is your problem, that you prefer living in a cave.


First, my point was => Why should Delhities suffer from this is stupid reservation crap, if other areas face the problem? Why should delhities know about it? To play the games of "you are dalit, I'm brahim"?
Second, if Delhi shows better conditions, then so can other areas. Can we atleast try? "The historical account" that you stated is like a null argument as Delhities have a large portion of people from "UP" too, some from Rajasthan, ah well in general, people from all those areas *where "cast system" is visible* in full glory.







			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> To quote Andre Beteille,
> 
> “Today, the Constitution of India provides a blueprint for *an egalitarian society.* The Constitution is not based on the premise of hierarchy, but *on the premise of equality.* But of course, you do not just erase or cancel out age-old inequalities simply by adopting new principles in a Constitution. So what else has to be done in order to reduce the inequalities of the past? This is what affirmative action or positive discrimination addresses itself to. The object is to reduce the level of inequality in a society which has had a hierarchical order over a very long period of time. Affirmative action or positive discrimination was not the only major programme adopted when the country became independent and created a Constitution based on the premise of equality. For example, there was a massive programme of agrarian reform which was also designed to give greater thrust to the pursuit of equality. I would say that these were the two main programmes – agrarian reform and affirmative action – designed to improve the conditions of what came to be known as the backward classes in Indian society.”
> 
> Mr Andre Beteille, is a vocal anti-quota activist. He, along with Sam Petroda, resigned from the Knowledge Committee in 2006, to protest against, govt’s decision to increase quota.


1. Political exploitation of cast
2. Exploitation of reservation system
3. Merit discrimination. (Should we get reservation "for" merit also" ?)
4. Removing some discrmination, by creating further discrmination and ignoring "root cause of the problem"?

Aren't you already ashamed? 



			
				article said:
			
		

> The underlying theory is that the under-representation of the identifiable groups is a legacy of the Indian caste system. After India gained independence, the Constitution of India listed some erstwhile groups as Scheduled Castes (SC) and Scheduled Tribes (ST). The framers of the Constitution believed that, due to the caste system, SCs and the STs were historically oppressed and denied respect and equal opportunity in Indian society and were thus under-represented in nation-building activities. *The Constitution laid down 15% and 7.5% of vacancies to government aided educational institutes and for jobs in the government/public sector*, as reserved quota for the SC and ST candidates respectively *for a period of five years, after which the situation was to be reviewed.* This period *was routinely extended* by the following governments and the Indian Parliament, and *no revisions were undertaken.*
> 
> *Later, reservations were introduced for other sections as well.* *The Supreme Court ruling that reservations cannot exceed 50% (which it judged would violate equal access guaranteed by the Constitution) has put a cap on reservations. However, there are state laws that exceed this 50% limit and these are under litigation in the Supreme Court. For example, the caste-based reservation fraction stands at 69% and is applicable to about 87% of the population in the state of Tamil Nadu (see section on Tamil Nadu below).*


Source

Firstly, it is not necessary that all the anti-reservationists be speaking the same point. So if you think by quoting an anti-reservationist I'm gonna agree, then dream on. "Reason" and "Reason well"!! Logic and the let equality prevail.

Next, If we go by the "data", then reservation should have been "decreased". It should have been reviewed. Why hasn't been it reviewed? Why has it been increased instead?? If it is increasing does it means that the so called "socially discrminated" ones are rising in numbers? Is it a vicious circle? Are we implementing reservation to create more "socially backward" people?? Do you understand the flawed reality?? 

So, Some talks of equality? Its a bad joke, nothing else!




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Ideal definitions? Where ? Which one? Contradictory to its purpose ? Where is the data ? Tamil Nadu experience is just the opposite of what you have argued so far. Success of the American system of affirmative action, is another example.


Read the post and the data above which shows how the contagious flu is spreading! 

Tamil Nadu system has become like an exception. A competition is said to be working when the people fight on "equal terms". Even if "majority of people" fight on equal terms, then also it is competition, but not really in true sense. It becomes flawed. Since majority in the case of T.N is itself the privileged ones i.e greater than 60%, *the competition is between the priviledged ones.* But again not a real competition. And hence I believe the situation in T.N is reverse, where upper class is "under privileged" and "has to work hard". And hence Tamil Nadu is actually "discrminating" in a far worse manner and IGNORING THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM COMPLETELY.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> So now, SC/ST, OBCs status as backward classes is “myth”. Because of your Delhi experience. Wonderful.


Again a lapse on ur part! I never said "SC/St/OBC" is a myth. The statement => "*ALL* SC/ST/OBC are backward classes", is wrong and is a myth!!  




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> What are you babbling here. No body gives any right to anybody. *Some rights are just fundamental, which you get just by being born, e.g. freedom.* Indian constitution further guarantees the right to education. You and I are stealing that right, in the name of caste. It is because, that there rights are being denied, the govt. has the reservation policy, to ensure, that they get their rights. The deniers are indeed punished, not substantially though. (Most of the cases of atrocities aren’t registered with the police, most of those which are registered aren’t dealt with)


What I'm stating is that "why a poor irrespective of cast is denied that right"? And why is it that the same poor, irrespective of cast, "when he becomes financially sound" is availed all his natural right ?

You speak of data, like some analyst disconnected from reality sitting in front of your cooler sipping iced tea, and demanding "data" all the time to judge reality. Rememer an american can never present the problem of an Indian village in the same way that a person from the same village can. American would need "data", while the villager "knows" the reality. And now I feel like you lied about your "little tours" in remote corners of India.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> *And city experience exactly corresponds to rural life, where the substantial portion of these people live. Right.* Just because you have seen some ray-ban wearing, bike wielding, mall hopping dalits, the majority, living in the rural areas, facing discrimination, automatically gets nullified. So govt. should now on base its policy on what the city dwellers are thinking and doing, and forget, the remaining close to 90% of the people. You would probably not even know, how condescending it sounds.


It simply shows the flaw of reservation. But you don't see it. Right? If city experience does not corresponds to rural experience then why such a bullcrap is implemented in city? Further you did not answer my question!! here it is again...



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> And then, going by your "ideal" definition, I guess, all those OBCs and SC/STs who ride bike in colleges with fancy and faded jeans, "*should have 'ideally' been denied the right to purchase** by the higher class"?? *How did they purchase the bikes and all the fancies then*?


Care to answer?

I wonder why behind the mask of "justice", you are talking of injustice all the way amd ignoring the root cause of the problem. I hope you won't ask the meaning of the "Root cause" now. 





			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> And I humbly request you to go through the census data of 2001 and NSSO report 2004-2005.


Have you even wondered how bad a child who get good marks, feels when a reserved ones who got lower marks get through? ONce again the sachar report, mandal commision and the cenus data do not show "IF THE ROOT CAUSE AND THE SENSE OF PERCEPTION AND DISCRIMINATION" has been lowered. Further, They are apathatic to the general class student who is financially unstable. I guess you forgot how I started and you need to read back the entire debate.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> A. Reservation ensures that.
> B. Or, bring down the level of inequality.
> c. Law exists, but hardly implemented.


A. Agreed!
B. You are joking and discrminating against merit.
C. You finally understand!




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> The whole point of the example was that the so called “merit” is a farce. Person scoring 19,000th rank would be considered not so meritorious compared to the ones who are, say within top 100. It is irrelevant, if he is dalit or general class. Now, if this dude is not a dalit, but a general class, he still gets admission to a college. A private, sucky one. However, if this dude is a dalit, he also gets admission to a college. *A better college, due to reservation.* In the former scenario, no question about merit will be raised. But in the later scenario, question of merit will be raised, just because, he is taking the route of reservation. In both the cases, though, they are of same merit.


Its quite common when a person wants a computer stream which he is getting in DCE but a mechanical stream in IIT, he goes to DCE to pursue his choice. He can do that "irrespective of his cast" and nobody denies him. In ur example, What crime did the "general class" student commit that he "does not get that better college"? And why are you assuming, the general class student gets private college? Have you taken it for granted that the general class student is financially sound? Have to taken it for granted that the dalit for "economically backward" and "socially discrminated"?

In the former, the merit is being practiced "normally" without any external factors affecting it. In latter, the reservation crap "act as an external factor" and affects the "merit" and discriminates against it. Both the cases are NOT THE SAME. First one, is "conceptually the key" for an institution to give the seats. Whereas the second one, is actually a mockery of that concept and affecting it, discrminating against it.

Likewise, the "concept" for filtering the students to admission level is also the number of "criterias" like 60% in boards. Is any institution "denying" the right to "entrance exam"??


Let me ask, did you enjoy reservation all your life that you are so ignorant on merit? Did you EVER face competition in studies to know the value of competition and merit?




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Strange, here you find, "past performance" to be adequate to break tie. But when I suggested this very factor to be considered to determine reservation, you went into a severe seizure.


Reservation is "acting" on the first layer of admission, whereas the "past performance" in my statement is acting on the second layer, a layer when both "dalit and general class" possess the same score. The second layer, i.e during a tie, can also be based on the "age" i.e who is older. If financial help is given to the dalit, then he can perform better than general class one not only in the tie i.e past performance, or GDs, but even during the admission round.

AP: Village labourer cracks IIT entrance



			
				article said:
			
		

> With hard effort and single-minded devotion, you can make possible what seems impossible.
> 
> That is what an *18-year-old has shown in Khammam district of Andhra Pradesh*. With *not enough to eat, and no money even to burn the midnight oil, in a village with hardly nine hours daily power supply, the boy managed to secure 453rd rank in the IIT entrance exam.* However, he has won only half the battle yet.
> 
> ...



Calling my example as exception, you have proved once again how much you lied about your "little tours" and incapability to face the reality.

Now try to call all of these as exceptions too....
Bihar Village Churns Out 100 IIT toppers

Like I said, you are only fooling yourself.



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Who do you think is affecting the dalit ?


Higher casts? Does that mean all of the higher casts? Does that mean all of the dalits are affected. Does that mean every single higher cast is affecting every single dalit? If some higher casts are affecting some dalits or lets say plenty of dalits, then shouldn't that root cause of the problem be eradicated and action should be taken against that "some higher cast"?

This VIEW remains ABSOLUTELY ABSENT IN ALL OF YOUR POSTS, in terms of laws and awareness.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> You really think, that relaxation of SAT scores *impedes completion at Harvard* ? Or just arguing for argument’s sake ? You just don’t know how to fit this Harvard syndrome in your convoluted scheme of things.


Once again you have shown that you are ignorant on merit. I would rather find my place in an institute that is built on the grounds of "competition", than "reservation". Even in many institutes the passing marks are diff. and relaxed for "reserved ones". So even the completion factor is non-adherent to the reality. and hence your logic is again flawed.

It again shows how merit has been affected by a perverted external factor like reservation.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Do you have any clue how IITs and IIMs recruit. Does anybody know about their recruitment policies ?


Read their brochure, for I bet you haven't even done that. They don't "deny" a dalit from taking an exam.



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Lets assume there is no reservation. Do you still suggest that everyone would get admission to all colleges. Would you still blame that “a middle class or rich guy” faced social injustice, just because he didn’t get admission. Infrastructural limitations can hardly be called social injustice. That was one point that I had raised earlier.


If you stop talking of the reservation be it on economic backwardess or social backwardness, then other is bound to stop talking of the terminologies "connected" to it.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Don’t know where to begin. Without a “threshold” how does one determine where to stop ? If “income sources of family” is made the criteria, how does one determine, which “income source” requires financial aide. Also, how do you measure “desperation” ?


Do you know anything about the income tax? Why higher income group pays more taxes and why lower salaried pay low accordingly? The same logic is what I am talking of and thats how we "measure desperation". 




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Elaborate.


Do you think population of India is static that no new souls will be born into this world, in village, after the implementation of reservation and after some period of time say in decades all the problem will disappear?

1. Reservation leads to the never ending "cast system".
2. Percentage of reservation has gone up. No revision has been made and hence meritocracy has been discrminated even further.
3. It creates a "certified" category of who is "reservation tagged" and "who really competed".
4. Reservation is not remotely helping them buy internet connection or a computer, books, or anything that is used to do practicals and homework. Read the story of an IITian (A.P) once again.
5. A system that is divorced from competition and denying a "holistic development" of a student, I guess, is really "not giving" him what is needed. Development of personality and speaking manners are a part of education.
6. More souls are born, and the "root cause of the problem" remains the same. Brahmins are pictured as monsters and hence society starts looking down upon them. Look at yourself alone, saying all of it started with "Brahminism". Have you ver wondered it might lead to a reverse situation, where Brahmin might be discrminated in future? 
7. Again, what about a poor general category student who got higher marks, but a quota student got the seat? 




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> I have not. But it is irrelevant to the discussion.


First, quoting manusmriti, then exploring the "by birth" in it and now this? I think you should really stop for its wise if YOU HAVE NO IDEA. I will enlighten you in my next post about it, if you still show your ignorance and reluctance. A wise decision would be to read it yourself.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> *Eradicating the “root cause” is not the scope of reservation.* Its scope is reducing the level of inequality that exists due to a couple of thousand years of oppression, by ensuring certain rights. Its like expecting a sledgehammer to work like a spade


If the scope is to reduce inequality then why has reservation been increased?????????????????????? Why are Delhities made to suffer inequality under the banner of equality?  The bold clearly tells, how useless is the reservation then. If the SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM is not dealt with, then how we can we really stop the problem???

Do you even understand how "contadicting" and flawed your own statements are becoming? I believe we should continue this for over the next 2 months.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> As of now, you haven’t been able provide single data to back up your accusation. While data, contradicting you, exist. If “equal completion” and “the spirit of merit” were hampered, then Harvard today wouldn’t have been what it is. Then in Tamil Nadu, wouldn’t have registered so many backward class in the merit list.


It seems you don't even know what your data speaks of. Your data is not "contradicting" a single point I'm putting forward.	

The socially discrminated one gets facilties, and jobs. He gets "financially sound". Is he discriminated? Thus financial improvement removes his social backwardness. While his village "continues" to face the discrmination. More babies are born, who shall face that discrmination. And hence, the "root cause of the problem" i.e discrmination, remains IGNORED.

My idea, is to develop whole village, spread awarness and implement "strict" laws to reduce/eradicate discrmination. Unfortunately, you are not interested in any real justice , but only playing protagonist on the flawed system of reservation which leads to more and more discrimination and even saying that "Reservation is not about removing the root cause"??

Indians thought of a system to provide justice to the people who were discrminated on a "root cause". So our bright sages pointed towards reservation and to facilitate the so called backward people. And now you say, "Reservation is not about eradicating the root cause"?? Hilarious! 

I seems you think that the very thought that invoked reservation was not about the "root cause". And hence you are flawed again.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> So ? Whats the point ?


The point is "past performance" that you have been championing all along. I hope you understand, aptitude is different that mugging answers!! Some institutes admit people on the basis of "aptitude", while some "on who scored better in boards".

IITs are the ones, where you are tested on your aptitude and intelligence. And a person who is mugging most of the time in schools *may or may not* do well in IITs. And hence your point of "past performace" is also flawed. It doesn't mean merit is flawed. Merit is not really past performance. I hope you know that. How one scored in IIT or an exam is merit. How well person did in past, is "past performance". Merit may become a part of past performance, while past performance is not really a subset of merit. It doesn't extrapolate to merit. 

A how a student performed in nursery is irrelevant. But what relevant is the percentile he got in IIT/IIM to get admission into IIT/IIM. This is how IIT/IIMs "select students". BIMTECH has its own procedure. AFAIK, 10% weightage on CAT score, 30% on GD, 30% on PI etc.


I think you should take some competetive exams and know more about merit for it seems you are clueless of what merit actually means.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> And when are you going to sample the rural India ?


You are the one who is talking of data all the time, not me! You are the one who is oblivious to the stories of 100s of village children who cracked IIT, not me! So I think you should stop making sarcastic statements. 


And once again, I can only request you to read the light on varna system, before repeating the same old ignorance. Talking of equality without cutting out the source of inequality? How absurd!


And yes do read, post after a month if it takes time. Its not even a read of 15 minutes though. Your own posts might be longer in comparison.  
*www.hinduwisdom.info/articles_hinduism/283.htm


----------



## karnivore (May 13, 2009)

*mediator*

Instead of quoting and responding to each para, let me answer the 6 basic points that you have raised. I will respond to some of your rants, in the next post.

*1.What is the use of reservation, if can’t solve “the SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM” ?*

  This expectation of reservation to solve “the SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM” comes from incorrect understanding of affirmative action, or, positive discrimination. Affirmative action attempts to bring down the level of equality that exists due to actions in the past. For example, in the US, the native Indians, were systematically denied access to civil amenities, which resulted in this ethnic component of the population to socially fall behind of the general population. The conditions of the blacks were even worse. Much later, actually, just 40 years ago, the US started this programme of affirmative action, where, these backward ethnic groups, were given concessions in terms of education and job security. But this action is not compulsory on any education institute or enterprise. They are free to choose not to implement. But still they do. For example, when the press in US, after a survey realized, that blacks were severely under represented in their industry, they voluntarily created a reservation of 9% exclusively for blacks. Today blacks have a fair share of representation in press. Universities like, Harvard and MIT, started accepting scores much lower that the general population. (Only a fool will claim that this has resulted in merit discrimination at Harvard). Affirmative actions, in one form or the other, exist in many other countries as well, for example Brazil, Canada, China, Japan etc.

  Discrimination, on whatever basis, is the CAUSE and backwardness is one of its EFFECT. Two are entirely different things, and require different solutions. Affirmative action, addresses the EFFECT, while the CAUSE is addressed through a combination of laws and awareness. Every country, even in India, adequate anti-racist (or if you may, anti-casteist for India e.g. Prevention of Atrocities Act or Protection of Civil Rights Act etc.) exist. Lack or inefficiency of enforcement of such law is actually a problem of governance. Improvement on governance will not only allow discrimination to die out, it will actually make civil life for all a lot more smooth. Awareness can be increased through education and partially through affirmative action, itself. What affirmative action does, in addition to lowering the level of inequality, is that, it creates awareness through the process of familiarity. Multi-ethnic campuses go a long way in improving inter community interactions, which in turn increases awareness. Education alone is not enough. It has its limits. A few months back there was survey that revealed that, of 1100 PhD holders, who were surveyed in India, about 49% believed that prayers work, while 38% believed that god can perform miracles. That is a scary result, by any standard. Not sure, if I can trust this education system to completely remove the prejudices. But it is not unique to India. A similar survey in US revealed similar results, confirming the theory of many sociologists, that up-bringing is key to such prejudices. Education, doesn’t always help, at least, it is for now, not helping the majority.

  It may be argued that removing the CAUSE, would remove the EFFECT. Although it is true in principle, but is many orders of magnitude difficult to completely remove the CAUSE of casteism within an acceptable time frame. Concentrating solely on removal of the CAUSE and ignoring the cumulative EFFECT of the past, would mean, letting the EFFECT to linger for some more time, at least till the CAUE is completely eradicated. Since we do not know, how long it would take to purge the CAUSE, it runs the risk of further deterioration than alleviation of the EFFECTED. 

  Therefore, the actions to remove the CAUSE must run parallel to removing the EFFECT. Reservation, does the later. Additionally, it keeps the discrimination, where it exists, in check. And we are debating reservation, which throws the actions to remove the CAUSE, outside the scope of out debate. The sociologists in India, almost unanimously agree that some form of affirmative action is needed for the SC/STs and OBCs. Where they differ, is the method of implementing such action.

*2.When in city, the discrimination is not so acute, then “why such a bullcrap is implemented in city” ?*

  Firstly, GoI can’t discriminate between regions. If it has drawn up a policy for the entire country, then it can’t leave out the cities. That will be anti constitutional.

  Secondly, most of the schools, colleges and institutes are located within the city. Even after 62 years of independence, the situation remains almost unchanged. Although, educational infrastructure in rural areas, have indeed improved, it is still not near enough to meet the requirement. Keeping cities outside the scope, will be like keeping majority of the facilities outside the scope of reservation, which will defeat the purpose of reservation only. 

  Thirdly, keeping the city outside the scope of reservation, is like denying reservation to the backward people, just because they live in cities. Approximately about 10% live in city. Most of them are engaged in menial profession of sweepers, cobblers, etc. They may not be as discriminated against as their counterparts are in the rural areas, but they still belong to the same pool, created due to sever oppression in the past. Excuse of living in the city doesn’t take away their social backwardness.

  Fourthly, if the system of reservation is applied only in the rural areas, and urban or semi-urban areas are kept out of the system, it will cause severe migration. People, who would feel that they can’t get into regular institutes or colleges, through open competition, will prolly move to the nearby city. This will cause, immense pressure on these cities’ infrastructure. Similiarly, people who should have been eligible for the reservation, but is denied so simply because they live in city, will move to the areas that enjoy reservation. This will result in severe demographic change and lead to polarization of communities.

*3.Reservation is “discrminating against the merit” ?*

  The question of “discrimination against the merit”, is actually a farcical argument. As long as our education system promotes mediocrity by means of private colleges, that accept admission through capitation fees, as long as there are NRI quotas or ministerial quotas, which are virtually auctioned off to the highest bidder, this argument will fall flat. AIMS has an inhouse quota of 25% for its PG courses, which, in most cases are filled with students with much less marks than those of external students.

*4.“What about a poor general category student who got higher marks, but a quota student got the seat?”*

  This is actually an argument from emotion. There will always a student who will not be admitted into a college, simply because the cut off mark is higher than what he has secured. This is due to infrastructural limitation, reservation has nothing to do with it. Had there been no reservation, a student below the cut-off mark would still have not been admitted. Blaming it on reservation is just being ingenious. 

  This argument is also an argument from ignorance. All major nationalized banks provide student loans, without any security. The installment payment begins from the year, in which he gets his salary. Income tax, gives a deduction u/s 80I, of IT Act, on such payment, for 8 consecutive year. The poor student can take out a loan and get admitted to a private college.

*5.Reservation is promoting inequality ?*

  Not by a long shot. By saying, that reservation promotes inequality, one simply assumes, that the socio-economic equality exists, and that caste based inequality doesn’t. The fact is that caste based discrimination has pushed these people to the fringe of the society. For generations they have been denied access to civil amenities, just like the native Indians in US, and blacks in SA, particularly in education. Most of them depend upon the upper caste for their livelihood. 
  Mandal commission used 11 criteria to measure backwardness:*Social*
  1.Castes/classes considered as socially backward by others.
2.Castes/classes which mainly depend on manual labour for their livelihood.
3.Castes/classes where the percentage of married women below 17 is 25% above the state average in rural areas and 10% in urban areas; and that of married men is 10% and 5% above the state average in rural and urban areas respectively.
4.Castes/classes where participation of females in work is at least 25% above the state average.

*Educational*
  5.Castes/classes where the number of children in the age group of 5 to 15 years who never attended school is at least 25% above the state average.
6.Castes/classes where the rate of student drop-out in the age group of 5-15 years is at least 25% above the state average.
7.Castes/classes amongst whom the proportion of matriculates is at least 25% below the state average

*Economic*
8.Castes/classes where the average value of family assets is at least 25% below the state average.
9.Castes/classes where the number of families living in kachcha houses is at least 25 % above the state average.
10.Castes/classes where the source of drinking water is beyond half a kilometer for more than 50% of the households.
11.Castes/classes where the number of the house-holds having taken a consumption loan is at least 25% above the state average.​What they found was the SC/STs and certain other classes (which they called OBC) failed miserably to pass their criteria. The forward class, i.e. the Hindu Upper Class fared, much much better on these criteria, although they comprised of much less percentage of the total Hindu population. On the basis of this finding they asked for quota for the SC/STs and OBCs. Today, the situation has remained largely unchanged, although positives are slowly trickling in.

  Claiming, that reservation promotes inequality, is akin to dismissing this finding as well. 

*6.“If we go by the "data", then reservation should have been "decreased". It should have been reviewed. Why hasn't been it reviewed? Why has it been increased instead?? If it is increasing does it means that the so called "socially discrminated" ones are rising in numbers? Is it a vicious circle? Are we implementing reservation to create more "socially backward" people?”*

  I am not sure, what data you are referring to, cause data shows just the opposite. For example, total number of people who have done graduation or anything above, is 37,670,147. For SCs, the number is 2,316,640 and for STs, the number is 761,179. In other words, of the total graduates, only 6.15% are SCs and 2% are STs. (I don’t have OBC data). If anything, this reservation has to continue. 

    The reservation system is reviewed on regular basis. It was done in 2006, which later on, resulted in an unrest among the misguided students. The reason it was increased, was purely politics. Even if we discount the political angle to the increase, it still doesn’t mean that the “so called "socially discrminated" ones are rising in numbers” beyond the normal rate of population growth. They are so large in number, SC and ST together consist of close to a fourth of our entire population, and adding OBC, it will be close to three fourth, and the reservation is so disproportionate to the size of their population, that it has created a severe back log, so to say. Census 2001 stands testimony to it.


----------



## karnivore (May 13, 2009)

mediator said:


> My example of policeman was to SHOWCASE how you are IGNORING the root cause of the problem. It seems you have made a habit to deliberately insert the cast factor. She could have been a dalit or a brahmin. She could have been rich or poor. You have assumed a lot of incorrect factors it seems that clouds your vision of the picture AS A WHOLE. We need to "eradicate" the the very cause, the very perception that becomes the "start" of the crime, so as to bring STRICT discipline so that the "start disappears". And so, ONCE again, you have NEGLECTED the root cause and telling us the definitions and consequences of the actions.
> 
> We want to stop the rape in general, and you are talking of the cast. She could have been a foreigner, a chinese, a black, an alien. Read the example again


  And you still don’t get the difference between fighting crime – a law and order problem and healing the victim.

  One more time. “Discrimination” is your metaphorical rape, while, “reservation” is the metaphorical healing of the victim. “Discrimination”, like the metaphorical rape, must be addressed through law and awareness.


> …your post clearly shouts HOW YOU ARE IGNORING THE ROOT CAUSE which become irrespective of cast. A poor is discrminated irrespective of his/her cast, while the rich njoys the facilties and mocks the laws.
> …
> A maid is not slapped or raped because she is a dalit. Police doesn't checks the complete family history before doing discrmination or taking goose instead of "challans". If you have political backing, police is at your knees. If you are rich, police behaviour is seen. If you are poor, police becomes a wolf. ALL of that => IRRESPECTIVE of cast i.e the factor of "cast" is almost null. But the "finance factor" is BIG and Real!!


  I have not denied that economic discrimination doesn’t exist. I agree, sometimes the line becomes blurred. But, you are completely rejecting that atrocities against backward class happen, just because of their caste, going so far as to say that “the factor of "cast" is almost null”. You are attributing all crimes to economic discrimination. Before filing a FIR, the police needs the name of the victim or the one who is filing. So yes, they get to know what class that victim belongs to. Yes, house maids are sexually molested, because she is a dalit. 

  If one is poor, there is a whole lot of problem. Add to that the caste factor. And you have got a perfect cocktail there. Here’s some data:

  In the year 2004 alone, there were 26,887 reposted cases of crimes against SCs alone. Atrocity incidences accounted for about 33% (4,699) of the total crimes while other crimes accounted for 43%, hurt 14.2%, rape 4% and murder 2.4%. These were all, what we call, hate crimes. 

  In Maharashtra alone, there were, 4864 cases of crime against SCs, between 2000 and 2006. Only 200 of those faced conviction. 


> Firstly, For even a teenager knows how people from "all walks, all regions, all faiths etc" are entering Delhi like atleast 1000 per day for various reasons. They come and get dissolved in the chaos of the city. Those who discrminated, breath the air, get used to it, demolarise and stop discrminating and become part of the captial. Those who do are in turn looked down upon for their "discrminatory" behaviour and hence it becomes the first step in "eradication of the root cause". Here also, "most" of the times, a person is discrminated only when he is poor.


  Naïve assessment.


> …if you think by quoting an anti-reservationist I'm gonna agree, then dream on.


  That actually shows rigidity and unwillingness to learn, on your part. I quoted Mr Andre Beteille, to explain the thought process that went into creation of this reservation, i.e. affirmative action or positive discrimination.

  Mr Andre Beteille is not anti-reservationist, neither are any social scientists. He, like many others, is against quota method of reservation, not against reservation, per se. He advocates, the American system of open ended reservation, as opposed to our exclusive system of reservation. Since, you haven’t read enough of these sociologists, you don’t get the meaning of affirmative action. You probably don’t even know, how many country operates on the idea of affirmative action. Reservation is not unique to India, quota system is.


> Tamil Nadu system has become like an exception. A competition is said to be working when the people fight on "equal terms". Even if "majority of people" fight on equal terms, then also it is competition, but not really in true sense. It becomes flawed. Since majority in the case of T.N is itself the privileged ones i.e greater than 60%, the competition is between the priviledged ones. But again not a real competition. And hence I believe the situation in T.N is reverse, where upper class is "under privileged" and "has to work hard". And hence Tamil Nadu is actually "discrminating" in a far worse manner and IGNORING THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM COMPLETELY.


  Funny assessment. Although the total reservation adds upto 69%, in practice it doesn’t go beyond 49.5%. They have a peculiar method of calculating the absolute numbers. Anything beyond 49.5% would be unconstitutional as per Supreme Court verdict. 

  Before being an armchair analyst, the least that is expected of you is to have some knowledge of things that you intend to analyze.


> …demanding "data" all the time to judge reality.


  This is the million dollar quote. What shall we base our judgment of reality on ?


> Rememer an american can never present the problem of an Indian village in the same way that a person from the same village can. American would need "data", while the villager "knows" the reality.


  And the villager gains knowledge, through some  divine whisper…


> Have you even wondered how bad a child who get good marks, feels when a reserved ones who got lower marks get through?


  Well boo hoo…


> ONce again the sachar report, mandal commision and the cenus data do not show "IF THE ROOT CAUSE AND THE SENSE OF PERCEPTION AND DISCRIMINATION" has been lowered. Further, They are apathatic to the general class student who is financially unstable.


  First read the reports, then comment


> In ur example, What crime did the "general class" student commit that he "does not get that better college"?


  The argument was of merit. You are now shifting your goal post.


> Is any institution "denying" the right to "entrance exam"??


  No. Because if they do they will loose license to operate.


> Let me ask, did you enjoy reservation all your life that you are so ignorant on merit? Did you EVER face competition in studies to know the value of competition and merit?


  Personal question. Anyway, no, I was one of the “fortunates” to be born in a Hindu Upper class. I never needed reservation and reservation never really effected me. Never. And since, we are into personal experience, my personal experience is that only mediocres, who can’t get into better colleges, whine against reservation.

  Catch the drift.


> Read their brochure, for I bet you haven't even done that. They don't "deny" a dalit from taking an exam.


  Brochure are not made to advertise the soft underbelly of the institutes. They “don’t” deny dalits, because now, they “can’t” deny. Mandal commission found, how these institutes were ingeniously denying dalits, by means of a loophole. These institutes, previously, never used to fulfill the quota. Example, if say, 10 persons were eligible to get admitted through quota, they would admit only say, 3. The remaining seat would be fulfilled from general quota. Some colleges just didn’t fill up any, and admit all general students. This led to the recommendation of freezing the quota, meaning, if quota remains unfulfilled, they shall remain that way.

  Guess how IITs recruit ? They themselves don’t know.


> Do you know anything about the income tax? Why higher income group pays more taxes and why lower salaried pay low accordingly? The same logic is what I am talking of and thats how we "measure desperation".


  Lets see. Of 9 years of professional life, I have been a tax consultant, for 4 years, (3 years as assistant to a senior one), and of 3 years of my apprenticeship, before I got my degree and started my professional life, 1 year has been in the tax department of my firm. Believe me. I know exactly what I am talking about, when I am talking about tax. That tax system is called progressive taxation. 

  Now does the method of progressive taxation measure “desperation” ?


> 1. Reservation leads to the never ending "cast system".
> 2. Percentage of reservation has gone up. No revision has been made and hence meritocracy has been discrminated even further.
> 3. It creates a "certified" category of who is "reservation tagged" and "who really competed".
> 4. Reservation is not remotely helping them buy internet connection or a computer, books, or anything that is used to do practicals and homework. Read the story of an IITian (A.P) once again.
> ...


  1. BS
  2. Again BS. Learn about Knowledge Commission
  3. Unless, you are an employer, how would you know if your dalit neighbor has taken the help of reservation. Or again, as I have asked this to MetalheadGautham, you are just judging by one’s surname. That’s called racism.
  4. BS. I would agree, it is not happing thick and fast. But it is happening.
  5. Some more BS.
  6. Even you called them fake. You can wish as much as you want, history will continue to be same.


> First, quoting manusmriti, then exploring the "by birth" in it and now this? I think you should really stop for its wise if YOU HAVE NO IDEA. I will enlighten you in my next post about it, if you still show your ignorance and reluctance. A wise decision would be to read it yourself.


    I didn’t quote Manu Smriti as part of my argument. Interpretation of verna was never an argument. I quoted to show, the members what their holy texts say. Simple. No need for mental gymnastics.


> It seems you don't even know what your data speaks of. Your data is not "contradicting" a single point I'm putting forward.
> 
> The socially discrminated one gets facilties, and jobs. He gets "financially sound". Is he discriminated? Thus financial improvement removes his social backwardness. While his village "continues" to face the discrmination. More babies are born, who shall face that discrmination. And hence, the "root cause of the problem" i.e discrmination, remains IGNORED.


  And what enables him to “get facilties, and jobs” so that he can get "financially sound" ?  Some divine intervention I guess.



> My idea, is to develop whole village, spread awarness and implement "strict" laws to reduce/eradicate discrmination.


  How do you suppose, you would implement “strict laws” ? How do you suppose to develop whole village, to the extent that economic discrimination is completely eradicated, with the limited resource available to GoI. And how long do you think it will take.


> It doesn't mean merit is flawed. Merit is not really past performance. I hope you know that. How one scored in IIT or an exam is merit. How well person did in past, is "past performance". Merit may become a part of past performance, while past performance is not really a subset of merit. It doesn't extrapolate to merit.
> A how a student performed in nursery is irrelevant. But what relevant is the percentile he got in IIT/IIM to get admission into IIT/IIM. This is how IIT/IIMs "select students". BIMTECH has its own procedure. AFAIK, 10% weightage on CAT score, 30% on GD, 30% on PI etc.


  Mental masturbation, only ejaculating confusion of mind. Your score in IIT, or for that matter any exam that you wrote last, becomes a part of your past performance immediately after you finish writing the exam. Just that, it will be your immediate past. A single exam is just a test of your performance on that given day, on those given set of questions. The reason why social scientist ask for result of “nursery”, in your words, in addition of immediate performance, is to judge one’s consitency of performance. This helps those who are genuinely good students, but fared badly due to reasons other than ability.

  I didn’t know that it was rocket science.


----------



## mediator (May 14, 2009)

Once again putting your "belief" in a new format and starting afresh, you have shown how determined you are to run away from the issue and "reason" with the flow.



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> 1.What is the use of reservation, if can’t solve “the SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM” ?
> 
> This expectation of reservation to solve “the SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM” comes from incorrect understanding of affirmative action, or, positive discrimination. *Affirmative action attempts to bring down the level of equality that exists due to actions in the past.* For example, in the US, the native Indians, were systematically denied access to civil amenities, which resulted in this ethnic component of the population to socially fall behind of the general population. The conditions of the blacks were even worse. Much later, actually, just 40 years ago, the US started this programme of affirmative action, where, these backward ethnic groups, were given concessions in terms of education and job security. *But this action is not compulsory on any education institute or enterprise. They are free to choose not to implement.* But still they do. For example, when the press in US, after a survey realized, that blacks were severely under represented in their industry, they voluntarily created a reservation of 9% exclusively for blacks. Today blacks have a fair share of representation in press. Universities like, Harvard and MIT, started accepting scores much lower that the general population. (Only a fool will claim that this has resulted in merit discrimination at Harvard). Affirmative actions, in one form or the other, exist in many other countries as well, for example Brazil, Canada, China, Japan etc.
> 
> ...


Do you see the vast amount of flaws and conradictions in your own written post?

1. The discrmination in US isn't exactly analogous to that of India.
2. Do you know anything about "ethnic cleansing of AMerican Indians?" Also, Indian history is much different than American.
3. The cause of the discrmination is the distortion and misunderstanding of "core of Hinduism". Where is such a core in US?
4. If actions in the past are to be considered then, Hindus were "discrminated" and "abused" financially and physcially! Why are we having reservation for muslims then? Where is the Hindu reservation in general?
5. The Indian Institutes are not even free to "decide" about the implementation (from the bold), let alone the increasing percentage of reservation.
6. Where is the reservation in minority institutions? Do Aligarh muslim university and jamia Milia have same kind of resveration for Hindus?
7. We all know how kashmiri Pandits have been killed, discrminated. Do J&k institutes have the same amount of reservation for Hindus?
8. Why are we stressing on EFFECT, when the CAUSE holds much more importance and the primary solution for the problem?
9. Why do most politicians send their children abroad. Why don't they let them suffer in this perverted system? If they like to glorify the system then I believe they should set examples. Why such a hypocrisy?
10. If Affirmative action creates awareness, then why is the reservation increasing? Logically if you think, if that awareness would have been there, then the problem in villages would have been removed far quicker. If people can come in DElhi and forget all the distorted bullcrap in 2 years alone, then a person going back to his village would have educated many people. So is he even getting that "awareness" in the first place. Remember DElhi not practising discrmination doesn't mean it is "aware" of the Varna system.

Remember, Awareness spreads like a wild fire, just like a rumour does!  

And so the point of affirmative action creating awarness is a lie to brainwash the mind of innocent and gullible believers. 

11. Comparing reservation system with theism is the worst and stupidiest kind of analogy I have seen so far. While theism is not a system, reservation is entirely a system. While the definition of God has many aspects, reservation is a straight concept where nobody is "debating" on the CAUSE which holds a simple key to eradicate the whole "discrmination". Do I even need to talk on Reservation and Theism? It again shows how bad you are at logic.
12. How can you say that "eradicating the CAUSE" is "dificult in an acceptable time frame". Have we even set a time frame? Have we even experimented that we are just opining about its duration? 
13. We are debating "reservation" becuse it is a useless tool. It is useless because it is discrminiating against merit and and more and more of people are arising from the "root of cause" who *may or may not have been discrminated*. Population of India isn't static!!
14. Disassociating the CAUSE FROM EFFECT to deal with a problem, is again the most stupid form of logic I have seen. 

If a white shark is trying to kill people in a sea, will you try to save people or simply kill the shark? Remember it will continue to kill people if you don't kill it.
15. Saying reservation deals with the EFFECT you have yourself given the judgement that how useless the whole flawed system is, the system that was developed due to lack of human intelligence to deal with the problem or perhaps to germinate a seed that would tremble the whole foundation of the Indian nation.

Digest this....
*www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1173139



			
				article said:
			
		

> NEW DELHI: The recent decision of the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT), Delhi, to terminate 25 students, many of them from the scheduled caste category, for poor performance has raised hackles all around.
> 
> While the National Commission for Scheduled Castes is pressuring the institute to take them back, the issue that cannot be wished away is their actual performance after gaining entry into these hallowed institutions.
> 
> ...


16. Reservation is a mockery of the reserved student himself where it raises the bar for an "academically underperforming student much higher" in many of the institutes.

So your point that Reservation deals with the EFFECT only narrows to "facilitation", where he is facilitated to suffer a "much intense" hell.



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Firstly, GoI can’t discriminate between regions. *If it has drawn up a policy for the entire country, then it can’t leave out the cities. That will be anti constitutional.*
> 
> Secondly, most of the schools, colleges and institutes are located within the city. Even after 62 years of independence, the situation remains almost unchanged. Although, educational infrastructure in rural areas, have indeed improved, it is still not near enough to meet the requirement. Keeping cities outside the scope, will be like keeping majority of the facilities outside the scope of reservation, which will defeat the purpose of reservation only.
> 
> ...


By saying it a problem of entire nation and hence can't leave cities.......
1. Your point of Delhi not recognising SC/ST becomes null. If many people are coming to delhi, then Delhi which is "not recognising SC/ST" is not "denying" or "discrminating" anything 
"on basis of cast". Then why has there been a cast based reservation? You are directly making Delhities suffer for a crime they never commit?
2. Your point that it a probem of village and Delhi is different, becomes flawed automatically. Village remains the same, while the "conceptual distorted crap" and "super crap" based on the former is entering Delhi. Those who might or might not have suffered get the luxury/privilege, while the others i.e meritorous are made to suffer. Further the system is apathetic to those who are poor and come under general class.
3. In your second point, once again you yourself highlight how we are ignoring the CAUSE.
4. Your third point. Since you don't live in Delhi and your point has hopped to "cities being the center of most of the institutes" which I was expecting in this post of yours, have you ever heard of the cases from Delhi where a B.Sc student is pulling a rickshaw? I bet you are oblivious to that also. Such B.Sc students are mostly from "financially" poor families irrespective of cast. These are the ones, who never got any personality development, or money to buy a computer or expensive books. 

The reality of the cities and companies is that the company doesn't take anyone who lacks personality i.e manners and way to speak, proper English, proper aptitude and proper understanding of a problem which again is aptitude only. Clearly reservation FAILS to "facilitate" ALL OF THESE. The company hasn't taken the oath to teach you proper English first, taken your aptitude for granted. 

5. Your fourth point. The line in the bold contradicts the whole meaning that you tried to expound. How do you define regular institute of colleges? If the city ones are regular ones just because they are out of the system, and rural ones are not because of reservation crap, then does introducing "reservation" in city ones still make them regular? The point of reservation here itself has degraded the repute of the college and hence education.

Further if you think, that "People, who would feel that they can’t get into regular institutes or colleges, through open competition, will prolly move to the nearby city.", then what about the city folks? Where will they move? Outside India? Your point has itself busted/contradicted your own view.

If this is what you call affirmative action, then it is most ridiculous logic I have ever seen.



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> 3.Reservation is “discrminating against the merit” ?
> 
> The question of “discrimination against the merit”, is actually a farcical argument. As long as our education system promotes mediocrity by means of private colleges, that accept admission through capitation fees, as long as there are NRI quotas or ministerial quotas, which are virtually auctioned off to the highest bidder, this argument will fall flat. AIMS has an inhouse quota of 25% for its PG courses, which, in most cases are filled with students with much less marks than those of external students.


I think you are making it a habit now, that whenever you can't reply to a point, you simply start afresh in a new format!! Why don't you simply stop? Care to elaborate on your view that I exposed as flawed to the core?

Further, private college doesn't necearrily means a good college. Students irrespective of cast try to go in good colleges. Who is denying him? If he is denied, the repute of the college goes down. Companies come to reputed colleges and lastly a student is taken by his "worth"!! Where is education system "promoting mediocrity" by means of private college? Care to explain? If it is capitation fees you are talking of, then where is the problem of "discrmination based on cast"???? I think you are only hopping from one absurd point to another which are all flawed. 

Obviously, any point which is made in favour of a flawed theory in concept based on flawed assumptions is bound to be flawed. 



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> 4.“What about a poor general category student who got higher marks, but a quota student got the seat?”
> 
> This is actually an argument from emotion. There will always a student who will not be admitted into a college, simply because the cut off mark is higher than what he has secured. *This is due to infrastructural limitation, reservation has nothing to do with it.* Had there been no reservation, a student below the cut-off mark would still have not been admitted. Blaming it on reservation is just being ingenious.
> 
> This argument is also an argument from ignorance. All major nationalized banks provide student loans, without any security. The installment payment begins from the year, in which he gets his salary. Income tax, gives a deduction u/s 80I, of IT Act, on such payment, for 8 consecutive year. The poor student can take out a loan and get admitted to a private college.


Calling a logical argument as emotional, is again a flaw in your logic. Reservation has everything to do with it. Because of reservation a regular college falls sick and "denies" admission (not the test) to the one who got better marks. 

Neways, Do you even understand the cutoff marks? Had there been no reservation, and lets say the sam cutoff marks for all like 50%. A student who got 45% marks would have been denied. But if that 50% cutoff becomes for general and 40% becomes for reserved, the same student who got 45% marks is "denied", while an Sc/ST who gets even 41% marks is given admission. I don't even understand why I'm discussing this.

Its like you are totally clueless of what reservation is and what its ills are.



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Not by a long shot. By saying, *that reservation promotes inequality, one simply assumes, that the socio-economic equality exists,* and that caste based inequality doesn’t. The fact is that caste based discrimination has pushed these people to the fringe of the society. For generations they have been denied access to civil amenities, just like the native Indians in US, and blacks in SA, particularly in education. Most of them depend upon the upper caste for their livelihood.


Thats a major flaw once again.
Saying that reservation promotes inequality implies => socio-economic equality and cast based inequality may or may not exist. You have taken it for granted that it exists and *I'm not saying it exists*. I simply "showed" you how it "may or may not" exists.
Saying reservation "facilitates" the "discrminated" implies => You are taking it for granted that Cast based inequality exists "everywhere". You are treating a percentage as a whole, The percentage from which "majority" of students come to cities, as majority of institutes are in cities, which do not practice "cast based discrmination" and hence even that percentage (of discrminated) is reduced.


ALL YOUR POINTS ARE CONTRADICTING EACH OTHER CLEARLY AND CONCEPTUALLY TILL NOW.





			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Mandal commission used 11 criteria to measure backwardness:
> 
> Social
> 1.Castes/classes considered as socially backward by others.
> ...


1. Hindus in kashmir?
2. I believe many of them ride bikes and wear rayban. I bet you would need "data". 
3. Does that mean they are discrminated, "denied" entrance by institute?
4. Mechanical Engineering, heavy labour work is usually not for "females". This is from the traditional point of view. Its not about "why many of electricians and mechanics and engineers are mostly men", but "how many females applied" for such a job. Number of girls working late at night in Delhi is lower than men. Do you know anything of rapes in Delhi? So again such a measure is far from reality and thus flawed! And hence it again shows how reality (EFFECT) can vary, if the CAUSE itself is not clear, varies and not controlled!
5. Again you are only discrminating with the student as mentioned in above points. You are mocking him, raising his bar even higher.
6. Dropout can also be because of mental retardation. If a child cannot learn a lesson, and fails in the "primary" cirrculum repeatedly, then what assurance is there that he will "behave" on a cirriculum that is based on the previous?? Do you know anything about calculus and algebra? For that you need to be sound in "elementary mathematics"!! 
7. Typical reservation?
8. If its about assets, then why not talk in terms of assets?
9. If its a "kacha house", then lets make it a "pakka house". This again invokes "financial relaxation".
10. I think the souce of drinking water should be moved nearer.
11. Is the loan availed properly and appropriately? Are they afraid to take loan? In general, last time I checked ICICI bank thrashed a man for not fulfilling his loan on time.


Well Mandal commission speaks of "flawed" points to determine backwardness right in front of your eyes. How absurd? And so your argument of stating "mandal commission" for your "belief" goes even higher in the height of illogic.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> What they found was the SC/STs and certain other classes (which they called OBC) failed miserably to pass their criteria. The forward class, i.e. the Hindu Upper Class fared, much much better on these criteria, *although they comprised of much less percentage of the total Hindu population.* *On the basis of this finding they asked for quota for the SC/STs and OBCs.* Today, the situation has remained largely unchanged, although positives are slowly trickling in.


Does all of it has "anything" to do with "discrmination", that is generally not practiced in cities? What does "merit" has to do with the percentage of a class of a people? I think you have started posting arguments that are remotely connected to the concepts of reservation. Confused??





			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> I am not sure, what data you are referring to, cause data shows just the opposite. For example, total number of people who have done graduation or anything above, is 37,670,147. For SCs, the number is 2,316,640 and for STs, the number is 761,179. In other words, of the total graduates, only 6.15% are SCs and 2% are STs. (I don’t have OBC data). If anything, this reservation has to continue.
> 
> The reservation system is reviewed on regular basis. It was done in 2006, which later on, resulted in an unrest among the misguided students. The reason it was increased, was purely politics. Even if we discount the political angle to the increase, it still doesn’t mean that the “so called "socially discrminated" ones are rising in numbers” beyond the normal rate of increase. They are so large in number, SC and ST together consist of close to a fourth of our entire population, and adding OBC, it will be close to three fourth, and the reservation is so disproportionate to the size of their population, that it has created a severe back log, so to say. Census 2001 stands testimony to it.


Its funny to see how you are ignoring all the logical, political, realistic factors affecting reservation. You even managed to ignore the root cause. Let me say clear enough......

*IF YOU THINK THAT WE ARE DEBATING JUST TO SHOW WHO WINS THE DEBATE, THEN YOU ARE WRONG!!*






			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> One more time. “Discrimination” is your metaphorical rape, while, *“reservation” is the metaphorical healing of the victim*. “Discrimination”, like the metaphorical rape, must be addressed through law and awareness.


A victim can never be healed if the "disease" he is suferring from is not eradicated in the first place. Here the "victim" denotes all those who are discrminated. And the human population is not static, that no new souls will be born or face discrmination. For someone who couldn't conquer the bar of merit, introducing a higher bar for him is certainly injustice for him. 

Imagine a person who couldn't lift 50 Kg of weight in gym, is made to lift 100 KG. You are simply not helping him actively.





			
				kanrivore said:
			
		

> I have not denied that economic discrimination doesn’t exist. I agree, sometimes the line becomes blurred. *But, you are completely rejecting that atrocities against backward class happen*, just because of their caste, going so far as to say that “the factor of "cast" is almost null”. You are attributing all crimes to economic discrimination. Before filing a FIR, the police needs the name of the victim or the one who is filing. So yes, they get to know what class that victim belongs to. Yes, house maids are sexually molested, because she is a dalit.


One of the major factors that is blurring your vision is that you assuming that "atrocities occur on *all* of the backward classes"




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> If one is poor, there is a whole lot of problem. *Add to that the caste factor. And you have got a perfect cocktail there.* Here’s some data:
> 
> *In the year 2004 alone, there were 26,887 reposted cases of crimes against SCs alone. Atrocity incidences accounted for about 33% (4,699) of the total crimes while other crimes accounted for 43%, hurt 14.2%, rape 4% and murder 2.4%. These were all, what we call, hate crimes.*
> 
> In Maharashtra alone, there were, 4864 cases of crime against SCs, between 2000 and 2006. Only 200 of those faced conviction.


A rich dalit, if added to your cocktail, again makes it tasteless! It again shows how cast can become opposite of "economic backwardness". A rich dalit is economically sound. And a cocktail where *poor* is added with a _cast_ (say *rich* _dalit_) becomes flawed, since poor and rich (dalit) are contradictory!!

Next, if you talk of crime then talk in term of law that is applicable to all. Law is supposed to provide equality and not injustice to the innocent. If its the hate, then eradicate that hate. Bring laws and strictly implement them to punish the discrminator. Once again what about Kasmiri pandits? What about the poor general class Hindu girl who was raped and doesn't come under the banner of "economically backward"??


Flaws, contradictions have teamed up with hypocrisy!!




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Naïve assessment.


Once again you "didn't reason why", but only opined? I hoped you would ask for "data". Calling reality as naive assessment once again reflects how a firm "believer" you are that you don't even see the reality and logic. You are simply incapable to understand the plight of a Delhite! Being a Delhite, I enlightened you with the situation in Delhi, told you how village problem doesn't just reflects to village alone but reaches to cities when most of the students come to cities and disappears in them when those students are dissolved in the existing chaos of the city and cities become a hub of people from all walks of life. Once again.....

*IF YOU THINK THAT WE ARE DEBATING JUST TO SHOW WHO WINS THE DEBATE, THEN YOU ARE WRONG!!*

First you lied about your little tours of Delhi, then you called the story of IITian as an exception and now you are reluctant to believe of the scenario in Delhi. Come to Delhi and seee for yourself. Seeing is believing right??




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> That actually shows rigidity and unwillingness to learn, on your part. I quoted Mr Andre Beteille, to explain the thought process that went into creation of this reservation, i.e. affirmative action or positive discrimination.
> 
> Mr Andre Beteille is not anti-reservationist, neither are any social scientists. He, like many others, is against quota method of reservation, not against reservation, per se. *He advocates, the American system of open ended reservation, as opposed to our exclusive system of reservation.* Since, you haven’t read enough of these sociologists, you don’t get the meaning of affirmative action. You probably don’t even know, how many country operates on the idea of affirmative action. Reservation is not unique to India, quota system is.


Like I already exposed, stop treating US scenario with that of India!



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Funny assessment. Although the total reservation adds upto 69%, in practice it doesn’t go beyond 49.5%. They have a peculiar method of calculating the absolute numbers. Anything beyond 49.5% would be unconstitutional as per Supreme Court verdict.
> 
> Before being an armchair analyst, the least that is expected of you is to have some knowledge of things that you intend to analyze.


I wonder why you brought the discrminatory practise in TN as an argument here itself, to show how many are being facilitated and how many are being discrminated? How absurd!




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> This is the million dollar quote. What shall we base our judgment of reality on ?


By first setting the criterias of the data correct. So far all your point are flawed and contradicting. 




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> And the villager gains knowledge, through some divine whisper


And that is perhaps the silliest quote. Who else will know reality better of a place than the one who is living in it??



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> ONce again the sachar report, mandal commision and the cenus data do not show "IF THE ROOT CAUSE AND THE SENSE OF PERCEPTION AND DISCRIMINATION" has been lowered. Further, They are apathatic to the general class student who is financially unstable.





			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Well boo hoo…


The report and the protagonists, it seems, are all hypocrites in setting "biased" criterias itself and further apathetic to meritorous candidates and poor general class!!





			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Personal question. Anyway, no, I was one of the “fortunates” to be born in a Hindu Upper class. I never needed reservation and reservation never really effected me. Never. And since, we are into personal experience, *my personal experience is that only mediocres, who can’t get into better colleges, whine against reservation.*


Is that why IITs and IIMs are against reservation? Your personal experience is also clearly flawed. By seeing 2 brown Indians you cannot say all Indians are brown. You cannot treat a percentage as a whole!!





			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Lets see. Of 9 years of professional life, I have been a tax consultant, for 4 years, (3 years as assistant to a senior one), and of 3 years of my apprenticeship, before I got my degree and started my professional life, 1 year has been in the tax department of my firm. Believe me. I know exactly what I am talking about, when I am talking about tax. That tax system is called progressive taxation.
> 
> Now does the method of progressive taxation measure “desperation” ?


I am talking of the "logic" behind "progressive taxation" that could be utilized to measure desperation. Read it again!






			
				mediator said:
			
		

> 1. Reservation leads to the never ending "cast system".
> 2. Percentage of reservation has gone up. No revision has been made and hence meritocracy has been discrminated even further.
> 3. It creates a "certified" category of who is "reservation tagged" and "who really competed".
> 4. Reservation is not remotely helping them buy internet connection or a computer, books, or anything that is used to do practicals and homework. Read the story of an IITian (A.P) once again.
> ...





			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> 1. BS
> 2. Again BS. Learn about Knowledge Commission
> 3. Unless, you are an employer, how would you know if your dalit neighbor has taken the help of reservation. Or again, as I have asked this to MetalheadGautham, you are just judging by one’s surname. That’s called racism.
> 4. BS. I would agree, it is not happing thick and fast. But it is happening.
> ...


1. First you state "CAUSE" is independent and now "BS"??  I have been "forced" to understand the meaning of backward classes in graduation, whether my friend is the tagged ONE or not. It again shows how much awarness you yourself need desperately, let alone the awarness in villages. It is only "facilitating" and "not ending" the whole drama.
2. Learn about reservation status, the increased reservation to 27% that is to be implemented in phases. Again you are oblivious to the reality, now even to the data. 
*ibnlive.in.com/news/sc-upholds-obc-quota-keeps-creamy-layer-out/63029-3.html
*www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=132641
3. Thats exactly what happens when you put up a new format and shy from quoting in old fashioned way. You simply "repeat" much that was debated! Go to DU (Delhi University), the biggest university in Delhi and you will yourself come to know of the classes, who is tagged and who is not, who is certified and who is not. These things are not judged by data, but knowing the reality yourself.
4. It is not happening. Did you even understand the story of the IITian?
5. So now you think the system of holistic" development is not a part of education? You think their "discrmintory village" will treat them the manners and the way to speak? Have you forgotten the golden days when the English teacher made us to pronounce the words correctly and told us of our uniform. Almost every teacher speaks of manners and so, the personality development is a major part of school education. Every school child knows this. Every parent knows this. And you are saying "BS". 

You think companies will give them the "personality development" course?? Remember personality development doesn't comes in 2 or 3 months, but years!
6. Again a point out of Ignorance. You are not stressing on the CAUSE and without even trying you have given the verdict that history will continue to be the same. How sane is that??

Like I said, Delhi accomodates people from all walks, region,casts etc. And still DElhi doesn't practice "cast based" discrmination in general. History is re-written everyday. You are clearly blinded by your reluctance to accept reality and the confusion from the flawed theory and assumptions!    


*It seems you are out of words and hence instead of "reasoning" properly" you are putting up two lettered "BS" in many places. Can't face the reality? Or are you saying now new souls are born on earth? You have even invented a new format to dodge the "flow of reasoning" and hence putting us back to square 1.* 



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> I didn’t quote Manu Smriti as part of my argument. Interpretation of verna was never an argument. I quoted to show, the members what their holy texts say. Simple. No need for mental gymnastics.


I exposed your lies before and on this one too. Denying won't help. I believe we should keep the true definition of varna system in the debate. You yourself were ignorant about the "holy texts" So how could have you "shown" them of their holy texts? Its like a science fan who knows nuthing about science is in pursuit of telling others how science works! How absurd!



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> And what enables him to “get facilties, and jobs” so that he can get "financially sound" ? Some divine intervention I guess.


Are you even reading properly? Or assumed "BS" as a primary reply to that gets overriden by some vague higher thoughts that are below the threshold of logic anyways?

1. From the start I have "not denied" that he gets financially sound. From being "socially backward" he gets financially stable. Has his problem of social backwardness removed? Like I said, Nobody asks a rich if he is a dalit. And so "economic upliftment" become a cure for his "social backwardness" which you were denying. If he is poor he is simply discrminated, if he is rich then, irrespective of his cast, everyone starts asking him.
2. His problem is removed. What about the problem of his village, which remains intact and is growing more souls? Many will be discrminated, facilitated and cycle repeats!
3. Is it necessary for the village and new souls to "face" discrmination?
4. Can't we remove the whole discrmination in the first place, and help him from childhood for a "better personality development"?? Are we even trying? Are we trying that actively as in reservation?
5. It is clearly discrminating against merit. 
6. It is raising bar for the "facilitated one" even higher.
7. We need to eradicate the whole perverted system and bring laws in place in a strict manner!


And so the "divine intervention" was given ages ago, but the reluctant people dodged the enlightenment every single time.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> How do you suppose, you would implement “strict laws” ? How do you suppose to develop whole village, to the extent that economic discrimination is completely eradicated, with the limited resource available to GoI. And how long do you think it will take.


Without experimenting we will never know! Like I said, awareness spreads like a wild fire, just like rumour. But it is important that we sow the seed of awareness first. If people like you and others keep degrading the meaning of scriptures by bringing in manusmriti and all sorts of "ignorant views" in the first place, then even that "seed of awareness" will remain far from being germinated.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Mental masturbation, only ejaculating confusion of mind. Your score in IIT, or for that matter any exam that you wrote last, becomes a part of your past performance immediately after you finish writing the exam. Just that, it will be your immediate past. A single exam is just a test of your performance on that given day, on those given set of questions. The reason why social scientist ask for result of “nursery”, in your words, in addition of immediate performance, is to judge one’s consitency of performance. This helps those who are genuinely good students, but fared badly due to reasons other than ability.
> 
> I didn’t know that it was rocket science.


Once again, you are in full contradiction of your own views.

1. For consistency, it is necessary that the "true concept of merit" be followed and hence all the "external factors", like reservation, "money power", "cheating", "forged certificates" that rise because of law not being implemented strictly, should not affect the merit.
2. Thats what I said, that merit can become a part of past performance, but past performance doesn't extrapolates to merit. The score of IIT entrance, i.e merit, will be taken for admission, but not the score of his 8th class performance i.e the whole set of past performance. Like I said, do you even undertsand merit?

BTW, how do you define the present? The very single second you breath of? If you define like that, then scientifically you will never be able "to prove" your existence! 
So lets talk logical, instead of stating like "very second, just finish writing the exam".... and hence becomes the past! Remember merit remains as merit till its worth is "valued"! A MAT score is valued for the whole year, while it becomes only an "irrelevant" showcase of performance after the expiry of its date. Ever wondered why boards certificates and scores are asked in college admissions and not 8th class percentage? Do people "cheat" that well in boards as compared to that in their own school? Can a person "cheat" in IIT like he cheats in schools?


----------



## karnivore (May 14, 2009)

I will respond to the quote below, for now that is, because I will be typing from hard copy. That’s lot of typing. If time permits, I will respond to the rest of your harangue, although I am not sure if it will contribute anything to the debate. So eventually I may not respond at all.



mediator said:


> Digest this....
> *www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1173139


  Vinay Kripal and Minakshi Gupta (1999) conducted a study on the IITs. They found that the consolidated average graduation rate for all SC and ST students was 84% while for the general category students it was 94%. The Mean Cumulative Performance Index (MCPI) of students who enrolled during 1989-92, were 7.88 for 436 general entry students, 6.23 for 115 SC students and 5.93 for 21 ST students in their performance. Not too bad, is it?

  Aikara (1980) found that, 5% of the SC students in his sample, had at least 1 college-educated parent, as compared with 32% of non-SC students; 34% of the SC students had 2 illiterate parents, as compared with 11% in the case of non SC students. 88% of SC students had at least partial freeships (scholarships) to support them in their studies, and only 4% of them relied largely or fully on parents or relatives for financial support; the corresponding figs for non-SC students, by contrast, were 14% and 64%. He also noted that the primary reason as to why SC students dropped out of college was failure at exams; but almost as significant was a need to find employment in order to provide financial support for oneself and one's family.

  Now about the specific news item, that you wanted me to digest. There was a fact finding mission, lead by Anup Kumar. He published his report, titled, “Caste Discrimination in IIT Delhi”. I have the hard copy with me. So I am transcribing some relevant points.

  He notes about the cut-off marks procedure followed by IITs in general“The cut-off marks at IIT entrance exam as well as passing marks in particular subjects in IITs are not fixed. The cut-off marks for SC/ST students in IIT entrance exams, in any year, is normally 10 % less than the general category cut-off in that year. The IITs follow relative grading in course work. There is no fixed minimum passing marks. Even if any IIT student has scored 60 % in any particular subject, there are chances that he/she might be declared failed, if the average score of other students is slightly higher. Or he/she might not be failed. Since there is no fixed passing marks, to pass students who have scored less than average becomes the prerogative of individual faculty members. ”​He goes on to note;“While interacting with IIT Delhi’s terminated Dalit students, three questions came to my mind. 

Were these students ‘weak’ in studies and were not able to cope up with the rigorous studies in IIT Delhi ?

Or/and did they just not apply themselves and study hard ?

Or were there other factors involved that might be beyond these students ?

The truth that emerges out is shocking, to say the least. Dalit students who are admitted in IITs are marked as ‘weak’ and ‘non-meritorious’ from the very beginning and their stay in IITs are made as painful as possible. Such behaviour has been institutionalised and has been perfected into a fine art by many faculty members. 

According to the IIT administration, all SC/ST students entering into the IITs are ‘weak’, as they come through Reservations. They use each and every opportunity, both inside as well as outside the classes, to make sure that these students are kept aware of this fact that ‘all general category students are meritorious whereas SC/ST students don’t deserve’ to be in IIT’.

However, the truth is that most of the Dalit students entering into the IITs are often toppers of their respective schools. They are, mostly, second generation literate and hail from lower-middle class, rural or semi-urban backgrounds with non-English medium schooling. In comparison, the general category students are invariably from upper-middle class, urban, upper-caste, English medium backgrounds. Not only are there marked differences in the backgrounds of the students from these two categories but also their routes to IIT differ immensely. And I would like to argue that this is where the ‘merit’ is constructed.”​Regarding the Rs 100 billion coaching industry vis-à-vis “merit”, he observes“The majority of Dalit students have cleared the IIT JEE exam through self-study or by taking private tuitions, as they were not in a position to pay huge fees for these centres. In comparison, it is very rare to find a general category student who had not studied in one or the other big coaching centres. Due to this, the general category students are much better equipped for IIT JEE exams and this reflects in the merit list of the general category which has higher cut-off marks. Still, some of the SC/ST candidates are able to score higher than that cut-off and reach to the general category list. The lower cut-off marks for SC/ST students thus becomes the first indicator that points towards the notion that ‘SC/ST students are weak’.​There is not even a single voice that opposes the coaching centres and the undue advantage they provide to the rich, urban, upper-caste students in comparison with those who, without money, are left to do self- preparation.”​He notes some experiences of the SC/ST students as well:“Professors in IIT are undoubtedly better from rest of the country, but there are some who need to be corrected. They ask the students’ caste and category when they perform poorly. They believe that all SC/ST students are weak and all weak students are SC/ST. In my first semester, the Physics professor was taking my viva and I was not able to answer, on which she became very annoyed and asked me, “Are you from quota?” I said, “No.” Then she explained, “Quota means SC/ST.” I again answered, “No.”

She was asking the same question to the general category students, if they were not able to answer in the viva. What is this mentality of the professor? Is it correct for professors to ask the category if one is not able to answer? Throughout her classes, I had the fear that if she came to know my category, she would do something wrong in my grading. So, I was quite nervous and never went to her for any help or to clarify my doubts. I don’t understand why professors create these kinds of situations.”​There are many such incidents, which he noted. One ex-IITian, who is now a professor at a regional engineering college noted:“There is no doubt that casteism prevails in the campus very much. The faculty members strongly believe that all SC/ST students are weak and that is why they treat them as inferior. We keep hearing their comments in the class about how weak we are. If we don’t do well in our exam, they blame it on our being from SC/ST category. They will never encourage you in your studies. Once I asked my professor to allow me to work in certain project under him. He flatly refused saying that this project was beyond my capabilities and I could not manage such a project. It was very heart breaking for me.”​The Telegraph also did a report on this particular incident. What they found, was almost identical to Mr Anup Kumar’s finding – that caste discrimination exists at IIT-Delhi.


> Ravinder Kumar Ravi, the chief complainant in the case, said the students had ample “evidence” to “prove” the IIT had discriminated against them.
> 
> “Some of us have been referred to as _sarkari jamai_ (in harsh terms, someone who has an exaggerated sense of entitlement from the government),” Ravi said.
> 
> ...


  About the admission procedure, here’s The ToI report on IIT-Khargpur.


> -In October 2006, the parent of an unsuccessful candidate filed RTI applications asking for cut-off marks, procedure for arriving at them and marks of the students above the cut-off marks in the IIT-JEE held that year.
> 
> -In December '06, IIT Kharagpur gave an evasive reply saying there was "no fixed procedure or technique" for deciding the cut-off marks. It said the decision is made each year "depending on the overall performance of the candidates".
> 
> ...


  The unsuccessful candidate happened to be one from the backward community.

  IIT-Madras was similarly found to be casteist.

  I know, data is inconvenient for your appetite. After all, bliss lies with ignorance.


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## mediator (May 14, 2009)

I think we should stop as it seems you have taken some kind of oath to dodge all my points and hop from one example to another and repeat and make me repeat everything again and again! This time I'm not asking you to quote my post #95. I guess your precious time is being wasted and then, this topic has seriously started to boooooore me to death. 

+ I think the TRP of this thread has gone down.


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## IITian (May 15, 2009)

karnivore said:


> Vinay Kripal and Minakshi Gupta (1999) conducted a study on the IITs. They found that the consolidated average graduation rate for all SC and ST students was 84% while for the general category students it was 94%. The Mean Cumulative Performance Index (MCPI) of students who enrolled during 1989-92, were 7.88 for 436 general entry students, 6.23 for 115 SC students and 5.93 for 21 ST students in their performance. Not too bad, is it?



Do u even know how the grading system of IITs work?It's a relative grading sysytem where someone's grades doesn't only depend on how much he has scored, but it also depends on mean marks scored by the class and deviation of marks.It's a pretty fair system and is being practised in most of the top engg. colleges across the globe.

6.23 isn't too bad??are u kidding?in present day scenerio a person with CGPA 6.23 won't even get a job.. not even a meagre 3.5lpa cosultancy job. 7.5 is the minimum CGPA required by most of the good companies.i think u don't know that who just passes is all subjects with E grade gets 5.0 .



> Aikara (1980) found that, 5% of the SC students in his sample, had at least 1 college-educated parent, as compared with 32% of non-SC students; 34% of the SC students had 2 illiterate parents, as compared with 11% in the case of non SC students. 88% of SC students had at least partial freeships (scholarships) to support them in their studies, and only 4% of them relied largely or fully on parents or relatives for financial support; the corresponding figs for non-SC students, by contrast, were 14% and 64%. He also noted that the primary reason as to why SC students dropped out of college was failure at exams; but almost as significant was a need to find employment in order to provide financial support for oneself and one's family.


Did u realize that this report is 29 years old?
Resevation on the basis of caste was justified at that time, but today it's not.



> “The cut-off marks at IIT entrance exam as well as passing marks in particular subjects in IITs are not fixed. The cut-off marks for SC/ST students in IIT entrance exams, in any year, is normally 10 % less than the general category cut-off in that year. The IITs follow relative grading in course work. There is no fixed minimum passing marks. Even if any IIT student has scored 60 % in any particular subject, there are chances that he/she might be declared failed, if the average score of other students is slightly higher. Or he/she might not be failed. Since there is no fixed passing marks, to pass students who have scored less than average becomes the prerogative of individual faculty members. ”


The year when I got selected, the cut-off for general category was 210, and for SC, it was less than 140.Do ur maths and see the difference for urself.
If a person is scoring 60% in a subject when the rest of the class is scoring 90%, then the person should definitely fail.



> he truth that emerges out is shocking, to say the least. Dalit students who are admitted in IITs are marked as ‘weak’ and ‘non-meritorious’ from the very beginning and their stay in IITs are made as painful as possible. Such behaviour has been institutionalised and has been perfected into a fine art by many faculty members.
> 
> According to the IIT administration, all SC/ST students entering into the IITs are ‘weak’, as they come through Reservations. They use each and every opportunity, both inside as well as outside the classes, to make sure that these students are kept aware of this fact that ‘all general category students are meritorious whereas SC/ST students don’t deserve’ to be in IIT’.
> 
> However, the truth is that most of the Dalit students entering into the IITs are often toppers of their respective schools. They are, mostly, second generation literate and hail from lower-middle class, rural or semi-urban backgrounds with non-English medium schooling. In comparison, the general category students are invariably from upper-middle class, urban, upper-caste, English medium backgrounds. Not only are there marked differences in the backgrounds of the students from these two categories but also their routes to IIT differ immensely. And I would like to argue that this is where the ‘merit’ is constructed.”


This must also be from one of your 29 years old reports?
Today these guys gets a lot of extra facilities.
First off, there are preperatory classes.The category guys who aren't good enough to make it through JEE(even with the relaxed cut-off for SC) are admitted into IITs and are taught class 12th syllabus for one year.IITs waste their resources on guys who aren't even receiving technical education.Irony isn't it?
All the SC guys are given scholarships just because they are SC.We can take 3 books from the library in a semester, they gets 7.And even after all this, when those guys doesn't perform and gets expelled, teacher is accused of practising casteism.
I have completed 2 years and I've never seen any instance where teacher made any caste related comment.
Most category candidates in my college are from urban areas(many are from metros) and had taken coaching to clear the JEE.How did the routes differ?



> The Telegraph also did a report on this particular incident. What they found, was almost identical to Mr Anup Kumar’s finding – that caste discrimination exists at IIT-Delhi.


4-5 years ago, AIR 1 of JEE was expelled out of one of the IITs because he wasn't able to perform, but it never made the news because he wasn't SC.Expulsion of non-performers fro IIT isn't  a new thing.


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## karnivore (May 15, 2009)

IITian said:


> Do u even know how the grading system of IITs work?It's a relative grading sysytem where someone's grades doesn't only depend on how much he has scored, but it also depends on mean marks scored by the class and deviation of marks.It's a pretty fair system and is being practised in most of the top engg. colleges across the globe.


My knowledge of the grading system is second hand, I admit. However I do understand what relative grading system means, along with the merits and demerits.



> 6.23 isn't too bad??are u kidding?in present day scenerio a person with CGPA 6.23 won't even get a job.. not even a meagre 3.5lpa cosultancy job. 7.5 is the minimum CGPA required by most of the good companies.i think u don't know that who just passes is all subjects with E grade gets 5.0 .


Your sharp eye missed two things. A. The research was in 1999, with data relating to the year 1989-92. The demands of CGPA, (it was probably not in place then and perhaps thats why the researchers had to calculate their own MCPI) would be much less then than today. B. I called it "not bad", on basis of comparison to the general catergory students. 84% graduation rate, against 94% can't be that bad, considering their backwardness, or shall I say "weakness". (Authors were of the same opinion, btw). MCPI of the SC was 6.23 compared to general category which was 7.88. STs, I will admit ,were in a bad position in comparison, with 5.93.



> Did u realize that this report is 29 years old?
> Resevation on the basis of caste was justified at that time, but today it's not.


I did notice. If my intention was to score cheap brownie points, then I would have suppressed the date.

Funny thing is, today you are saying, that they needed reservation 29 years ago. But 29 years ago, people like yourself were saying they didn't need it. So 29 years from today, I suppose someone will say that they needed it today, but not during his time. Where does it stop. 

Besides, on what basis are you saying that in 29 years the situation has improved so much that they wouldn't need any reservation now. Can you please reflect on that.



> The year when I got selected, the cut-off for general category was 210, and for SC, it was less than 140.Do ur maths and see the difference for urself.
> If a person is scoring 60% in a subject when the rest of the class is scoring 90%, then the person should definitely fail.


Since I do not have any means to verify your claim, I will take it at face value, and leave it at that.

As I was saying before, I do understand the merits and demerits of relative grading system. Many universities are indeed following it. Some are actually moving on to some other method. No system is perfect. The point, however, is that, it leaves scope for subjective marking. It is not a criticism against the system, it is a pointer towards how it can be misused. 


> This must also be from one of your 29 years old reports?


No. It was a report related to ouster of about 21 SC/ST students in 2008.


> Today these guys gets a lot of extra facilities.
> First off, there are preperatory classes.The category guys who aren't good enough to make it through JEE(even with the relaxed cut-off for SC) are admitted into IITs and are taught class 12th syllabus for one year.IITs waste their resources on guys who aren't even receiving technical education.Irony isn't it?


It appears as irony to you, because, you probably do not know that India is constitutionally a welfare state. That is why, you pay a fraction of the cost that IIT incurs on you. We, the taxpayers, pay the rest of the money. Then, you will run abroad, pissing on our money. That, my dear friend is irony.


> All the SC guys are given scholarships just because they are SC.


That is the least that the state can do.


> We can take 3 books from the library in a semester, they gets 7.And even after all this, when those guys doesn't perform and gets expelled, teacher is accused of practising casteism.


I guess, now you are getting emotional. It is very difficult to disregard evidence. 


> I have completed 2 years and I've never seen any instance where teacher made any caste related comment.


Am I glad to hear that.


> Most category candidates in my college are from urban areas(many are from metros) and had taken coaching to clear the JEE.How did the routes differ?


Not sure I got that.


> 4-5 years ago, AIR 1 of JEE was expelled out of one of the IITs because he wasn't able to perform, but it never made the news because he wasn't SC.Expulsion of non-performers fro IIT isn't  a new thing.


Yes I know. No body is denying that. Prejudices against SC/ST run so deep, that every incident needs to be scritinised.


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## IITian (May 18, 2009)

karnivore said:


> The research was in 1999, with data relating to the year 1989-92.



If i do a study today with the data of 1980,will it start reflecting the current picture?



> I called it "not bad", on basis of comparison to the general catergory students. 84% graduation rate, against 94% can't be that bad, considering their backwardness, or shall I say "weakness".


Just getting the degree isn't impotant.everyone studies to get a job.



> Funny thing is, today you are saying, that they needed reservation 29 years ago. But 29 years ago, people like yourself were saying they didn't need it. So 29 years from today, I suppose someone will say that they needed it today, but not during his time. Where does it stop.


I believe that the reservation system was designed to give a chance to those who remained economically backward because of discrimination.This isn't exactly what is happening today.What is the use of a system when it is unable to serve its cause?



> Besides, on what basis are you saying that in 29 years the situation has improved so much that they wouldn't need any reservation now. Can you please reflect on that.


Do u really think that just by getting in a college where someone doesn't belong, uplifts him socially?All reservation is meant to do is economic upliftment, and when the people who are getting in through reservation are already economically well off, it's a fail of reservation system.why shouldn't the reservation be on the basis of economic condition?



> Since I do not have any means to verify your claim, I will take it at face value, and leave it at that.


JEE had released the marksheets of every canidate as well as the cut-off marks that year.U can verify if u want.The competition is so tough that 1 mark in JEE can easily set someone down by 300 ranks.How can someone stand upto those who were 70 marks above them?I feel pity for those who were just below the cut-off and lost the apportunity of their lifetime just because of reservation.



> No. It was a report related to ouster of about 21 SC/ST students in 2008.


Do u really think that it's only the SC/ST students who gets expelled?Every year students are expelled rom IITs.Expulsion is based on performance and has nothing to do with the caste.When a general category student is expelled, he is a non-performer, and when a SC/ST is expelled, it is discrimination??



> It appears as irony to you, because, you probably do not know that India is constitutionally a welfare state. That is why, you pay a fraction of the cost that IIT incurs on you. We, the taxpayers, pay the rest of the money. Then, you will run abroad, pissing on our money. That, my dear friend is irony.


I have heard such statements a number of times.I can't understand what people want us to do.If we get into IAS,people have a problem.If we get into IIMs, people have a problem.If we join some MNC,once again people have a problem.I guess, people want us to join the public sector companies where there is no scope for innovation.Higher education as well as the research facilities in india are very poor, so we don't have any choice but to run abroad.
And the fact is, most of the people who goes abroad returns at some point of time.And even if they don't, they are making ur life better in some way or the other.

I guess we are going offtopic here.If u want more discussion on this topic, start a new thread.I m sure other members have something to say as well.



> That is the least that the state can do.


Then keep on giving full scholarships to people who are already driving a mercedes.It's ur money afterall.



> I guess, now you are getting emotional.


I m not getting emotional.I don't even care.I was just giving examples of the extra facilities they get.On the meaner side, i m gaining a lot because of this reservation.These guys brings down the average and helps me i getting better grades.



> Not sure I got that.


I was implying that the people who are getting in through reservation are not economically backward and they had every opportunity of getting in just like any other candidate.Then why the hell did they got in when there were thousands of candidates who had scored better than them??


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## confused (May 18, 2009)

forget about the reservation system....should this forum exist?????


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## utsav (May 18, 2009)

confused said:


> forget about the reservation system....should this forum exist?????



forget abt forum... should you exist?????


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## karnivore (May 21, 2009)

IITian said:


> If i do a study today with the data of 1980,will it start reflecting the current picture?


  You are now shifting the goal post. I do agree, though, that data is pretty old. (Since this is 2009, you will perhaps argue that we shouldn’t consider Census of 2001, because it will be pretty old by now) However, your contention with that quote of mine was not old data, if I recall correctly, but how CGPA of 6.23 is not good enough today. I merely pointed out, that in the late 80s and early 90s, CGPA, if it at all existed, of 6.23 would have been considered not too bad. In fact, I was assessing keeping in mind the old data, while, due to pure oversight, you made an assessment considering it to be current data.



> Just getting the degree isn't impotant.everyone studies to get a job.


  There is so much wrong with this statement, that it would require an entire book on sociology to argue. I will just give you a pointer. We don’t study, merely “to get a job”, although that’s what we are made to believe.

  In any case, this is also a shift of goal post. The argument was, how badly they are faring at IITs. Although old data, it does prove, that with a little help they can do well.  For me, it is not nearly enough, but not completely unacceptable too. Besides, you are only thinking in terms of MNCs. Govt. has reservation in jobs too.



> I believe that the reservation system was designed to give a chance to those who remained economically backward because of discrimination.This isn't exactly what is happening today.What is the use of a system when it is unable to serve its cause?


  The line in bold is what is wrong with your understanding of reservation. It is not just “to give a chance to those who remained economically backward because of discrimination”, but to those who remained SOCIO-economically backward because of discrimination.



> me said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  I asked you one question and you are replying to another. 

  Anyway, one more time, the reservation system doesn’t seek to do economic upliftment alone. It seeks to bring the backward class on the same social level, as the forward class. So, yes, “getting in a college” does uplift him socially and IIT, most certainly, is not the only college/university in this country, if you have bothered to look around.

  Regarding, the economically well off taking advantage of this system, let me ask you one thing. We are a population of 100 crores plus. Our tax base is merely of few Lakhs. Does that mean we should scrap our tax regime, because majority of the people are getting away with, not paying taxes. Should we measure a system for its successes or should we measure it by, how some are twisting it for their own interest.

  Forget IITs for the time being. Consider this:

  In 1991, the literacy rates among SC males and females in the rural areas, were, 46% and 19.5%. In 2001, the corresponding rates were, 53.7% and 37.6%. Increase of 7.8 and 18.1 percent points, respectively. Among non-SC/ST males and females, in 1991, in rural areas, the literacy rates were, 63.4% and 35.4%. In 2001, the corresponding rates were, 74.3% and 50.2%. That is an increase of 10.9 and 14.8 percent points, respectively. The interesting points that come out of this is:

  1. SC females in 2001 were marginally ahead of what the non-SC/ST females were in 1991. Roughly speaking, they are about 10 years behind their non-SC/ST counterparts.

  2. SC males in 2001 were still lagging behind what the non-SC/ST males were in 1991, by at least 9.7% points. They are lagging even miserably.

  3. The rate of literacy among SC females is greater than that of non-SC/ST females, which means, that they will catch up with their non-SC/ST counterparts, eventually

  4. The rate of literacy among SC males is far less than that of non-SC/ST males. This means, that the gap, instead of closing is still increasing.

  We have a long long way to go. And we are talking of Mercedes riding dalits. Give us a break.

And stop starting your comments with "Do you think...". It is precisely because I think, what I think, that I have turned pro-reservation, from being a die hard anti-reservation.



> JEE had released the marksheets of every canidate as well as the cut-off marks that year.U can verify if u want.The competition is so tough that 1 mark in JEE can easily set someone down by 300 ranks.How can someone stand upto those who were 70 marks above them?I feel pity for those who were just below the cut-off and lost the apportunity of their lifetime just because of reservation.


  I am sure, you are aware, how the IITs bungle on the cut-off marks.

  Lets see this myth of cut-off marks. Now suppose, to repeat an example given by another poster, the cut-off marks is, say 50% for a general category student, while it is say, 40% for a backward community student. Now suppose, a student secures 49.9%. What happens to him ? If he is a backward community student, he gets admission anyway. But if he is a general community student, he doesn’t.

  But how much of the general category student’s prospects of getting admission been hampered by the “vile” reservation system. Nothing at all, actually. His prospect is neither improved, by the absence of the reservation system, since he will continue to be below the cut-off marks in spite of the absence of the reservation system, nor is it deteriorated, by the presence of the reservation system, for the same reason of being below the cut-off marks. This general category student is not “denied” an admission because he is a general category student, but because he has secured something lower than the cut-off. The backward community student, getting admission in spite of scoring same, or perhaps below the general category student, doesn’t actually effect the prospects of this general category student.

  Since state policy is not dependent on jealousy (“Oh he secured less and yet got admission, and I couldn’t…boo hoo hoo), it is therefore an irrelevant argument.



> Do u really think that it's only the SC/ST students who gets expelled?Every year students are expelled rom IITs.Expulsion is based on performance and has nothing to do with the caste.When a general category student is expelled, he is a non-performer, and when a SC/ST is expelled, it is discrimination??


  I think I have already replied to that. Beside, why are you making tangential arguments.



> I have heard such statements a number of times.I can't understand what people want us to do.If we get into IAS,people have a problem.If we get into IIMs, people have a problem.If we join some MNC,once again people have a problem.I guess, people want us to join the public sector companies where there is no scope for innovation.Higher education as well as the research facilities in india are very poor, so we don't have any choice but to run abroad.


  From finding irony in one egalitarian function of the govt, to a purely defensive stance on another egalitarian function of the govt. Only difference is that the later one, directly concerns and benefits you. How convenient.



> Then keep on giving full scholarships to people who are already driving a mercedes.It's ur money afterall.


  How many can afford Mercedes in the first place, let alone the backward communities. Like everyone else, you are basing your arguments on exceptions. How wise is that. You don’t chop your head off to cure your headache. We have a system of below poverty level (BPL) card, so that these really needy people can get some benefit of the state machinery. But you will see that a chunk of these BPL cardholders are no where close to being below poverty level. So how do we deal with it. Completely abolish the system, and deny those who were genuinely benefiting from this system or do we try to plug the loophole, and keep the system alive.



> I m not getting emotional.I don't even care.I was just giving examples of the extra facilities they get.On the meaner side, i m gaining a lot because of this reservation.These guys brings down the average and helps me i getting better grades.


  Some extra facilities to the backward community and here you are, pissed. And someone was saying that discrimination doesn’t exist. What about the discrimination that exists in our psyche, that we have so lovingly reared for generations. If govt. makes the facilities of IIT available to us at a fraction of a cost, it is just what the doctor prescribed. But if the same govt. makes the facilities available to another segment of our population, systematically discriminated and dominated for generations, in a different manner, it is something of a nuisance. 

  Do not forget, what is sauce for goose is sauce for gander as well.

  Anyway, if you are gaining, then why are you complaining. And if you don’t care, why are you still arguing.



> I was implying that the people who are getting in through reservation are not economically backward and they had every opportunity of getting in just like any other candidate.Then why the hell did they got in when there were thousands of candidates who had scored better than them??


  Some are definitely taking advantage of the system. I am not denying that. But again, how many are they in numbers. If anything, they are pretty miniscule.


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## topgear (May 23, 2009)

Wow ! how huge posts 

BTW, in my opinion No ( except people with physically difficulties & economical limitations ) .......... So I voted for No ..............


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## NahSoR (Jun 17, 2009)

gopi_vbboy said:


> F* Caste based Reservation.....India wont come up with this crap...
> 
> *It shud be based on Poverty , Social Backwardness n Limited.*..*NOT on SH*** Casteism n Religion*...
> 
> ...




AGREE COMPLETELY. Especially the part about the revolt 


sibot said:


> I would like to start off by saying I donot have a Minority status and I am NOT covered under the reservation act but still I voted Yes.
> 
> I feel reservation is needed for the less-privileged BUT reservations in the education system should be only upto High School. The standards of good quality education till high school would ensure they are equally educated and knowledgeable as any other student, rest its a fight for the best. Once they have attained that standard of education, they are equipped for the battles to be fought that follow, i.e. entrance exams, job interviews, there is no reason why a person should be given boost in the job market even though he is clearly underqualified in comparison to his/her fellow applicants.
> 
> So, the reservation system should ONLY apply till the school level, that too under strict guidelines of performance. When they are receiving quality education, there is no reason they should perform under-average.



Again this is a veryvalid view point, and yeah reservation upto high school is fine. Past that it is the student's responsibility to show through MERIT that he is on par with the rest of the students.

BUT

This is INDIA. Our ideals and legislations are VERY poorly implemented and applied. Many people abuse this reservation system.

I had a frind who was financially sound, but still had a certificate to '2A' category under reservation. And when asked what this category was for, he replied, "Economically Backward" !!!!!. Now this is possible only if he had a fake one made. Or the system is so terribly loopholed that he was elegible under that category. Eitherways the damage was done. This is why and how reservation does more damage than good. 

And MOST IMPORTANTLY!!:

I finished one year of study in a Electronics and Communication, a top brach in a "top" (sarcastic quotes) engineering college here is bangalore (PESIT which i call PESHIT). There were many students who had got in through reservation. And most of them had ranks lesser than mine. 

These people are not even remotely interested in engg. they are doing it plainly to get a degree and a well paying job. That is it. Only for their personal benefit. Worse still, barring 2 or 3 of them, most of them did not need any financial aid either. 

And also, chew on this. Two of these students who came through reservation had ranks in 6000s in the Entrance Test. The range of the GM students getting admitted in this branch in this college is 84-230. ARE THEY NOT MUCH MUCH BEHIND the meritorious students??? And they absolutely struggled the past year to even get average marks. One could even venture to say that they _stole_ that seat from a much much more deserving student.

One unassailable point is that the reservation system does more bad than good especially because of the unethical practices of the people who comprise of the system.


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## MetalheadGautham (Jun 17, 2009)

^^I have to agree on that one.

People getting less than my AIEEE marks have got seats in NITs in top branches because of reservation while I'm getting next to nothing.

The whole system is flawed by design.


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## karnivore (Jun 17, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> People getting less than my AIEEE marks have got seats in NITs in top branches because of reservation while I'm getting next to nothing.


You couldn't make it, because someone, in the category that you belong to, was better than you. Swallow your pride and work hard. While you are at it, quit blaming others. 



MetalheadGautham said:


> The whole system is flawed by design.


and...


NahSoR said:


> Many people abuse this reservation system.
> 
> -snipped-
> 
> One unassailable point is that the reservation system does more bad than good especially because of the unethical practices of the people who comprise of the system.


Please show me a system that is perfect with capital P, with no one taking undue advantage of it.

"Joto dosh shob Nondo Ghosh"


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## NahSoR (Jun 18, 2009)

Sorry for the late reply to this post



karnivore said:


> In 1991, the literacy rates among SC males and females in the rural areas, were, 46% and 19.5%. In 2001, the corresponding rates were, 53.7% and 37.6%. Increase of 7.8 and 18.1 percent points, respectively. Among non-SC/ST males and females, in 1991, in rural areas, the literacy rates were, 63.4% and 35.4%. In 2001, the corresponding rates were, 74.3% and 50.2%. That is an increase of 10.9 and 14.8 percent points, respectively. The interesting points that come out of this is:
> 
> 1. SC females in 2001 were marginally ahead of what the non-SC/ST females were in 1991. Roughly speaking, they are about 10 years behind their non-SC/ST counterparts.
> 
> ...



Actually the crux of this debate, as i have observed, is not 'Reservation System - Should it exist?'

but

'Reservation System in *professional colleges* - Should it exist?'

'Cause i have not heard of reservation in Schools (atleast in private ones). And if it does exist in Govt. schools and pre-universities by all means let it exist, i dont think any of us have a problem with that; plainly because our standards are not *that* low. 

So now if the topic is whether Reservation System in *professional colleges* - Should exist?, then your point is absolutely incontextual here. A candidate is considered literate once 2nd PUC/ 12th standard is cleared. 

Then, WHY do we have reservation in professional colleges?? Shouldn't we rather be having it in schools? 



karnivore said:


> Lets see this myth of cut-off marks. Now suppose, to repeat an example given by another poster, the cut-off marks is, say 50% for a general category student, while it is say, 40% for a backward community student. Now suppose, a student secures 49.9%. What happens to him ? If he is a backward community student, he gets admission anyway. But if he is a general community student, he doesn’t.
> 
> But how much of the general category student’s prospects of getting admission been hampered by the “vile” reservation system. Nothing at all, actually. His prospect is neither improved, by the absence of the reservation system, since he will continue to be below the cut-off marks in spite of the absence of the reservation system, nor is it deteriorated, by the presence of the reservation system, for the same reason of being below the cut-off marks. This general category student is not “denied” an admission because he is a general category student, but because he has secured something lower than the cut-off. The backward community student, getting admission in spite of scoring same, or perhaps below the general category student, doesn’t actually effect the prospects of this general category student.



Well, most admissions are based on rankings, which is basically a relative system of evaluation and not on absolute scores on tests. Here arises the problem. I think it is clear how reservation causes problems in the rankings system. 

Here is my argument against the 'cut-off marks'. You just asked someone in a previous post to _work hard_. Why dont you say the same to the SC/St student?? Is he not capable of hard work because he is from a "backward" community??.  And if you say he *is* at a disadvantage somehow that prevents from getting marks, please tell me how, i think i have a solution.

Also let us look at this fundamentally and objectively from the point of view of the Institution, have they not receieved a student of lower calibre?

And ALSO, if it wasn't for the reserved seats, maybe the cut-off would be lesser, maybe 47% for GM(all) students. Now how can you say that the reservation doesn't affect the General Merit students in any way??  



karnivore said:


> How many can afford Mercedes in the first place, let alone the backward communities. Like everyone else, you are basing your arguments on exceptions. How wise is that. You don’t chop your head off to cure your headache. We have a system of below poverty level (BPL) card, so that these really needy people can get some benefit of the state machinery. But you will see that a chunk of these BPL cardholders are no where close to being below poverty level. So how do we deal with it. Completely abolish the system, and deny those who were genuinely benefiting from this system or do we try to plug the loophole, and keep the system alive.



I know many people have suggested the abolishment of this sytem, BUT they have suggested it in the favour of a Finacial Aid system as a *replacement*. So I ask you the question now, isn't the Financial Aid system better and far less flawed.??



karnivore said:


> Some extra facilities to the backward community and here you are, pissed. And someone was saying that discrimination doesn’t exist. What about the discrimination that exists in our psyche, that we have so lovingly reared for generations. If govt. makes the facilities of IIT available to us at a fraction of a cost, it is just what the doctor prescribed. But if the same govt. makes the facilities available to another segment of our population, systematically discriminated and dominated for generations, in a different manner, it is something of a nuisance.
> 
> Do not forget, what is sauce for goose is sauce for gander as well.


 
How can you even think of saying both are good legislations? The former is flawed and latter is even more flawed. I'll be glad to explain how and why if you want me to. (dont want to make this post too long).



karnivore said:


> Some are definitely taking advantage of the system. I am not denying that. But again, how many are they in numbers. If anything, they are pretty miniscule.



I doubt that they are miniscule, in my experience at the least, majority of these poeple are taking advantage of the system. (Please refer to my previous post).

Now, on the flipsyde listen to this example.

My friend Rakesh secured the 11th rank in Common Entrance Test-Medical, Karnataka. He in fact had a category certificate! Now, this guy is'nt from a well off family. Regardless, he has through hard work and individual effort reached the pinnacle of success in this test. And proudly taken a seat under *General Merit* in Bangalore Medical College, the most prestiguous college (unfortunately) in Karnataka.

Compare this example of the fried whose example I had given in my previous post.



> I had a friend who was financially sound, but still had a certificate to '2A' category under reservation. And when asked what this category was for, he replied, "Economically Backward" !!!!!. Now this is possible only if he had a fake one made. Or the system is so terribly loopholed that he was elegible under that category. Eitherways the damage was done. This is why and how reservation does more damage than good.



Ironic that both these students are in the same college.


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## karnivore (Jun 18, 2009)

*NahSoR*

I have more or less discussed the points that you have raised. You will find these, HERE and HERE.

But some comments need separate attention:


NahSoR said:


> Actually the crux of this debate, as i have observed, is not whether Reservation System - Should it exist?
> 
> but
> 
> Reservation System in *professional colleges* - Should it exist?


  Actually, there is no crux. Everybody has his own axe to grind. Here a lot of people think that reservation should exist only in school (because, apparently it doesn’t effect them directly, and thank you for coming clean). While few others think that it should be abolished completely. I stated data on literacy on the whole issue of reservation. 



> Well, most admissions are based on rankings, which is basically a relative system of evaluation and not on absolute scores on tests. Here arises the problem. I think it is clear how reservation causes problems in this system.


  So ?????



> *Why dont you say the same to the SC/St student*?? Is he not capable of hard work because he is from a "backward" community??. And if you say he is at a disadvantage somehow that prevents from getting marks, please tell me how, *i think i have a solution*.


  Find me an SC/ST/OBC student who is blaming someone else for his failure, I will say the same to him/her.

   You will be surprised that, most SC/ST students work harder that there general category students. The question was never whether they could work hard or not, but whether they were getting equal opportunities. In Tamil Nadu, the SCs have proved that if they are given an opportunity they can actually outdo their general category students, within a span of just 2 generations.

  In any case, I would love to hear your solution.



> Also let us look at this fundamentally and objectively from the point of view of the Institution, have they not receieved a student of lower calibre?


  First define “low caliber”. Second, the most obvious one, so fukcing what ?



> And ALSO, if it wasn't for the reserved seats, maybe the cut-off would be lesser, maybe 47% for GM(all) students. Now how can you say that the reservation doesn't affect the General Merit students in any way??


  47% as opposed to 50%, as in the example ? Strange. Suddenly those “General Merit students” are quite acceptable now. Oh I get it. When it comes to general category, merit can take a back seat. How convenient. 


> I know many people have suggested abolishment of this sytem, BUT they have suggested it in the favour of a Finacial Aid system as a replacement. So I ask you the question now, *isn't the Financial Aid system better and far less flawed*.??


  It is neither. It simply serves a different purpose than the caste based reservation system.


> How can you even think of saying both are good legislations? The former is flawed and latter is even more flawed. I'll be glad to explain how and why if you want me to. (dont want to make this post too long).


  Please explain this. Only after that I can reply.


> I doubt that they are miniscule, in *my experience* at the least, majority of these poeple are taking advantage of the system. (Please refer to my previous post).


  State policy doesn’t depend upon Mr Tom, Mr Dick and Mr Harry’s individual personal experiences.


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## IITian (Jun 19, 2009)

@karnivore
I left this thread because you just weren't listening.In every post I was saying that this system is misused MOST of the times and in every other reply u were saying that  every system can be misused SOMEtimes.I obviously didn't have the time or the patience to explain the difference between SOME and MOST to anyone who is not a 5 year old.
But now i see a very interesting point raised by u and i feel compelled to poke my nose back in this thread..



> Also let us look at this fundamentally and objectively from the point of view of the Institution, have they not receieved a student of lower calibre?





> the most obvious one, so fukcing what ?



Now this is the most irresponsible reply in this thread.
Picture this: Suppose you are having some heart trouble and have to undergo a bypass surgery.You come to know that the doctor who is performing the surgery is a just out of the college young fella who had flunked thrice during his medical studies.
What will be your reaction? Still "SO FUKCING WHAT?"?

When someone passes out from a premier institute, it is assumed that he has become the master of his field.But to make the masters of their fields, these institutes demand a certain quality in the students.By forcing these institutes to take the students of lower caliber we are downgrading the final product of these institutes.
Doctors, Engineers etc are the professionals on whom millions of lives are depending.We just cant jeopardize millions of lives to defend a system which is having not more than 50% efficiency.Can we?



> Please show me a system that is perfect with capital P, with no one taking undue advantage of it.


There might not be a Perfect system.But what makes you so certain that no system can be better than the existing one?

Rest all has already been said.


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## mediator (Jun 19, 2009)

iitian said:
			
		

> @karnivore
> I left this thread because you just weren't listening.


You are not the only one who felt like talking to himself. My last post #95 still remains untouched and points dodged in every manner.


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## karnivore (Jun 20, 2009)

IITian said:


> I left this thread because you just weren't listening.In every post I was saying that this system is misused MOST of the times and in every other reply u were saying that every system can be misused SOMEtimes.I obviously didn't have the time or the patience to explain the difference between SOME and MOST to anyone who is not a 5 year old.


 So that’s what it is now. Charitably using “MOST” and “SOME”. 

Lets see now. I have some experience in taxation (Income tax, Central Excise and Sales Tax). I can assure you that the word “MOST” doesn’t even come close to describing how the loopholes are abused. I am not talking of illegal advantages, but all legal dealing. Same is the case with Criminal Law – actually every single law. Maybe someday, when you graduate and step into the real world, you will see, what I get to see day in day out.

Anyway. Why don’t you back up your assertion, that reservation is abused by MOST, with some statistics. By statistics, I don’t mean what you have heard from your friend’s cousin’s uncle’s friend’s sister’s husband’s cousin. I am all ears for your data. 



> karnivore said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 That is a non-argument. Actually a typical strawman argument. Reservation doesn’t require an institute to lower, its education standards, or lower its passing norms for the backward community. Reservation works and stops at admission. From there on, its all the same for all the students. The students getting into a college through the quota system will have to go through the same rigors of the education standard, set by the institute. So a student, graduating from an institute is expected to be equal to all the other students, in respect of training and imparting of knowledge. 

Regarding that doctor in your example, the very fact that he is a fresh graduate, is enough for me to run from the operation theatre, even if he is a topper. If a doctor who has flunked thrice but has 30 years of experience and reputation behind him, I will indeed say, “SO FUKCING WHAT” ?

But since you have mentioned of medical students, I hope you know that AIIMS has a reservation in post-graduate studies, for its inhouse students. Which means an inhouse student can score less than an outsider, and yet do his post-graduation from AIIMS. Here is something to chew on:“The HC had found that "AIIMS students, who had secured as low as 14% or 19% or 22% in the (all-India) entrance examination got admission to PG courses while SC or ST candidates could not secure admission in their 15% or 7% quota in PG courses, in spite of having obtained marks far higher than the in-house candidates of the institute." HC had analysed admission data over five years.” ​I guess you are still feeling safe. After all they are all general quota students. In medicine, and even in engineering, it is not at all uncommon for students to flunk in the term papers. They don’t have the system of supplementary paper not for nothing.

The problem is, you and others are basing your arguments purely on individual experiences, which, if put in the larger scheme of things, become insignificant. You have Govt. sponsored data, in the form of Mondal Commission, Census, National Sample Survey etc. You have numerous private researches. Why don’t you quote some data from these, instead of punching in the vacuum.



> There might not be a Perfect system.But what makes you so certain that no system can be better than the existing one?


Let me quote myself only. From post #70“Reservation based on caste is needed, and will continue to be needed till a substantial portion of the BCs get represented in the society. What constitutes substantial, can be debated at length – on the basis of percentage of BCs in total population, or below poverty level, or living in rural areas or some other combination. I am open to the idea of scrapping the current mechanism. But whatever mechanism takes its place, it must give caste its due prominence.”​I have never argued, that no “no system can be better than the existing one”. Another strawman.


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## karnivore (Jun 20, 2009)

mediator said:


> You are not the only one who felt like talking to himself. My last post #95 still remains untouched and points dodged in every manner.


OTOH, i did reply to the part that i felt, made any sense. I didn't reply to the other parts, because, it was gibberish, and then you said...



mediator said:


> I think we should stop as it seems you have taken some kind of oath to dodge all my points and hop from one example to another and repeat and make me repeat everything again and again! *This time I'm not asking you to quote my post #95*. I guess your precious time is being wasted and then, this topic has seriously started to boooooore me to death.
> 
> + I think the TRP of this thread has gone down.


Did you forget, that this page hasn't yet flipped and this post is for everyone to see


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## hpotter606 (Jul 10, 2009)

@karnivore

1. I have read all your posts but still cant understand which colleges have denied admission to SC/ST students on the basis of their cast. Please explain further.
2. My best friend (who is SC), is from a small village from Bihar. He is also poor but somehow manages to pay his fees for VIT, Pune. He doesnt have a caste certificate, so cant use reservation system. If all you say is true, how did he get the admission in one of the top colleges of Pune? He has been my friend for 6 years now and i assure i have have enough knowledge about how things work in a remote village of Bihar.
3. The purpose of reservation is to uplift the socio-economically backward dalits and not just economically backward. What crimes have the non SC/ST/OBC economically backward people have committed so that they don't deserve reservation? You say that crimes were commited by people of open category for 2000 years. Are those people still alive? How can you punish people who are not alive anymore. I have never descriminated on the basis of cast and all of my good friends ( i mean ALL) are from backward class, then why do i get punished? Isnt it unfair? 

 Please provide some logical arguments which are lacking in your previous posts. Please make your posts clear and concise.


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## karnivore (Jul 10, 2009)

hpotter606 said:


> @karnivore
> 
> 1. I have read all your posts but still cant understand which colleges have denied admission to SC/ST students on the basis of their cast. Please explain further.
> 2. My best friend (who is SC), is from a small village from Bihar. He is also poor but somehow manages to pay his fees for VIT, Pune. He doesnt have a caste certificate, so cant use reservation system. If all you say is true, how did he get the admission in one of the top colleges of Pune? He has been my friend for 6 years now and i assure i have have enough knowledge about how things work in a remote village of Bihar.
> ...


Post #70
Post #79
Post #93

It the above posts don't clarify my position, then I don't think anything else would do. There is nothing more for me to add.

However, in order to understand the nuances of positive discrimination, you have to first get rid of this typical elitist mindset that you are displaying. 

While you are at it, quit playing the victim.


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## MetalheadGautham (Jul 11, 2009)

@karnivore:

What makes you think that ONLY SC/ST/OBC students are capable of scoring more marks than other students in professional education when admitted with lesser marks in entrance examinations ? Don't you think the same applies to a HUGE number of general merit students too ? I have friends who were placed into low grade institutions in K-CET, but they score way way more in the common VTU semester examinations than most of their Peers in respectable colleges who got in only because they were an SC/ST/OBC.


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## vamsi_krishna (Jul 11, 2009)

^ you are dragging yourself into dirt,MHG. Once you got into the dirt, either you have to give up or you have to type hundreds of lines.

The truth is you've already made your way into dirt. Get ready for any one of above.


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## MetalheadGautham (Jul 11, 2009)

vamsikrishna919 said:


> ^ you are dragging yourself into dirt,MHG. Once you got into the dirt, either you have to give up or you have to type hundreds of lines.
> 
> The truth is you've already made your way into dirt. Get ready for any one of above.


LOL I was away from this thread since I had to type loads of lines.

This is saturday. Tomorrow is sunday. I've got weekends off. So yeah, I don't mind explaining stuff in detail anymore.


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## vamsi_krishna (Jul 11, 2009)

^ poor gautham... are you thinking that you can escape within two days. See the starting and ending of the mediator and karnivors fighting. It will take days..

Anyway, all the best.


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## hpotter606 (Jul 11, 2009)

karnivore said:


> Post #70
> Post #79
> Post #93
> 
> ...



Elitist mindset???
I am asking simple logical questions and you are again dodging them. As I have already mentioned that i have read all your posts, but still I have these doubts. Isn't that simple enough? How will i stop being the victim by you telling me to quit playing the victim? That doesn't change the reality. 
Once again i am asking this and hoping for a direct answer...

Which college has ever denied admission to a person based on his/her cast?


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## karnivore (Jul 11, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> @karnivore:
> 
> What makes you think that ONLY SC/ST/OBC students are capable of scoring more marks than other students in professional education when admitted with lesser marks in entrance examinations ? Don't you think the same applies to a HUGE number of general merit students too ? I have friends who were placed into low grade institutions in K-CET, but they score way way more in the common VTU semester examinations than most of their Peers in respectable colleges who got in only because they were an SC/ST/OBC.


   Please do me a favour and try to read in the right context. 
  In any case, they are just as good or bad, as you me or any other general category students.


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## karnivore (Jul 11, 2009)

hpotter606 said:


> Elitist mindset???


Surprised, aren't we ?



> I am asking simple logical questions and you are again dodging them.


  Sorry buddy, I am too tired to type a 10,000 worded reply. All that you have asked, have been replied before. Not going to repeat it. If you want to take it as “dodging”, be my guest.


> As I have already mentioned that i have read all your posts, but still I have these doubts.


  I admit, I am not a very articulate person. I tried my best and if it still didn’t answer your queries, then, well, can’t do anything about it.


> How will i stop being the victim by you telling me to quit playing the victim?


  For a start you can start contemplating the consequences of the “2000” year old discrimination.


> Once again i am asking this and hoping for a direct answer...
> 
> Which college has ever denied admission to a person based on his/her cast?


  First, no college can “deny” admission to a person “based on his/her cast”. No, not because, they chose not to, but because if they do, they will loose their license to run the institute, not to mention, that the owners and the managers would be jailed.

  Secondly, after Mondal Commission report was partially implemented, the indirect discrimination was put on a check.

  If you had really read “all” my posts, you would have found the above info. I admit, that the posts are way too long for persons who are not in the habit of reading a post longer than 1 sentence. But if you claim to have read “all” my posts, then I guess, I am allowed to have some expectations of you. So far, it has been a disappointment.


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## hpotter606 (Jul 11, 2009)

karnivore said:


> Surprised, aren't we ?
> 
> Sorry buddy, I am too tired to type a 10,000 worded reply. All that you have asked, have been replied before. Not going to repeat it. If you want to take it as “dodging”, be my guest.
> I admit, I am not a very articulate person. I tried my best and if it still didn’t answer your queries, then, well, can’t do anything about it.
> ...



I think you have the habit of loosing the point. So even after reading ALL your posts for 4 hours, I had to make sure that I get the whole POINT of your posts. Thus the questions.

I understand we have already established that we are talking about only the higher education and education till 12th should be free. Is the education till 12th being denied to SC/ST/OBC? If yes, who is denying it. If they are being denied education till 12th, then how is the reservation for higher education going to help them get the education till 12th? On the other hand if nobody is denying it, we can safely say that the only matter is of money. Since no college is denying admission on the basis of caste as you said before, again the only matter is of money. If both the sentences are true, it follows logically that assistance is needed only by the people having less money and it has nothing to do with caste of the person. Kindly point out the mistakes in this logic so that i understand your LOGIC.


BTW sometimes one line is enough to prove several points and sometimes even 20 pages cant prove a single point.


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## karnivore (Jul 11, 2009)

@hpotter606

 Ok, since you have already wasted 4 hours of your life, I think you deserve a proper answer.

*Is the education till 12th being denied to SC/ST/OBC? *

 Largely, no. The reason is the quota system, where all schools, which depend on govt. funding require to admit certain number of backward class kids. The question of money doesn’t arise here (except for private commercial schools). There is a scheme called “Sarva Siksha” which is actually free education, along with a mid day meal.

*Are colleges denying SC/ST/OBC?*

 Again largely no. The reason, once again, is existence of strict laws and of course, the quota system. 

 In order to apply the economic criterion for reservation, or however you may wish to term it, one will have to first ensure that the economic benefit is capable of reaching, equally to all the segments of the society. That can’t happen if all the segments of the society are not on the same platform. Reservation, or positive discrimination or affirmative action, attempts to bring these backward segments to the same platform as the rest of the segments. So if the reservation system, on the basis of this social backwardness - which in India translates into caste, while in some other countries it may be ethnicity - is abolished, the backward segments would continue to be backward and the so called economic benefit would never reach them.

 Let me give you an example, with regard to “Sarva Shiksha Avijan”. Suppose there is no quota system. Would the economic benefit, in form of free education and mid day meal, reach the backward class. The answer, sadly is no. But because of quota system, at least some kids, belonging to the backward community, are getting within the folds of the economic benefit. 

 The same thing happens in higher education. Most of the govt. sponsored colleges are heavily subsidized, including IITs. But, how will the students of backward community take advantage of this system, if they are, on plea of being of a specific caste, not allowed to take admission. (Actually in higher education the dynamics are slightly different than secondary education) Laws and quota system ensure that they can take advantage of this economic benefit, dolled out by the govt.

 In _The Argumentative Indian_, pg 209, Professor Amartya Sen notes:

 “(T)here are many sources of disparity other than class: we must avoid the presumption that class encompasses all sources of disadvantages and handicap.”

 You are doing just that, presuming that class (economic disparity) is “all sources of disadvantages and handicap”. That is the “mistake" in your logic. 



> ...sometimes one line is enough to prove several points and sometimes even 20 pages cant prove a single point.


Correct. But the other side of the equation consists of the readers. Don't forget that.


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## hpotter606 (Jul 11, 2009)

karnivore said:


> *Are colleges denying SC/ST/OBC?*
> 
> [/FONT]            Again largely no. The reason, once again, is existence of strict laws and of course, the quota system.
> 
> In order to apply the economic criterion for reservation, or however you may wish to term it, * one will have to first ensure that the economic benefit is capable of reaching, equally to all the segments of the society. That can’t happen if all the segments of the society are not on the same platform. * Reservation, or positive discrimination or affirmative action, attempts to bring these backward segments to the same platform as the rest of the segments. So if the reservation system, on the basis of this social backwardness - which in India translates into caste, while in some other countries it may be ethnicity - is abolished, the backward segments would continue to be backward and the so called economic benefit would never reach them.




Why wouldn't the economic benefit reach the only the people from SC/ST/OBC? On the contrary, if most of SC/ST/OBC are poor as you say then most of them would be able to take benefit of the system with economic condition as the criteria. The only reason you gave for reservation based on caste over reservation based on economic condition is that it will remove the backwardness of the SC/ST/OBC people, to remove social discrimination. Now what about the wealthy and middle class  SC/ST/OBC people. Why should they get the benefit since they have already attained a high enough social status either through business or by service or by any other means? Why would anybody think less of them even after their achievements i.e. earning money by getting a good job or starting a business? Now if you say you don't know any SC/ST/OBC person who has done well in life, even then that will only mean that they are not having enough money since nobody can stop them from studying. Are people actually forcing them not the study that too only at higher education? Because if other people are not letting them study, why would they let the people from SC/ST/OBC study until 12th either?

Let me make one thing clear, I am not against people getting scholarships for their study. Even reservation based on economic condition. The same view has been expressed  by many people here. I will still understand if you make the education for these people free until even the post graduation, but not for those who are already have money and status in society. Your entire argument that the reservation is to achieve equal footing collapses when the rich people from SC/ST/OBC are considered. Then again if we have come this far, why not give scholarships to people from open category if they have less money?

Also if you reserving a large amount of seats for them then why allow them to take admission in open quota too? That is what I call the peak of unfairness as that reduces the no of seats of open category people to a very small number. Dont people from open category deserve to  study, to be happy? What about the poor open category people. They are getting crushed in this system. They cant get admission through management quota either like some other open category people. Its not like they wont get admission even if reservation was not there. Its happening because reservation has reduced the number of seats for open category.




karnivore said:


> The same thing happens in higher education. Most of the govt. sponsored colleges are heavily subsidized, including IITs.* But, how will the students of backward community take advantage of this system, if they are, on plea of being of a specific caste, not allowed to take admission.* (Actually in higher education the dynamics are slightly different than secondary education) Laws and quota system ensure that they can take advantage of this economic benefit, dolled out by the govt.




I think you are contradicting yourself here. In the last 2 posts you have admitted that the caste is not the criteria during admission in higher education institutes. Now you say the are not ALLOWED to take admission. Who is not allowing them? People in their village, institutions or their own community people are forcing them not to study? Also the amount of study they do is in their hand and nobody else can do anything about it. And again, intelligence is not dependent on the amount of money they have or their social backwardness. If they need money to study, they can ask government to give them loans which they can repay when they pass out from these institutions. Again this has nothing to do with social backwardness since this is the issue of money not social discrimination. I am asking how being of a socially backward class stopping them from having an equal footing if they have enough money.




karnivore said:


> You are doing just that, presuming that class (economic disparity) is “all sources of disadvantages and handicap”. That is the “mistake" in your logic.




Again you made a statement without any logical reasoning. Which other types of DISPARITY that exist? Are wealthy SC/ST/OBC having problem regarding study or admission due to these disparities? If yes, then in what way. This is the most important question of all and please reply to this one with logical reasoning and examples. I have seen enough wealthy SC/ST/OBC people who don't require reservation but still using it. Of-course if they can take benefit of it, they will take it, I am not blaming them. What I am saying is that they dont need it. So there is no reason to give them that benefit.  Again if you argue that they have suffered for 2000 years and lets say their father was born in poverty and made it on his own, this is not true only for the people from SC/ST/OBC category. My own grandfather was born in extreme  poverty and really worked hard. He was denied education by his own family due to family prejudice against education and had to leave the house to study. He made it on his own. I have seen your reply to a similar situation somebody explained before in which you said that he was not from backward class. Even if what you say is true, social discrimination now is very less as compared to 1930s. Also as you said they are given free education until 12th with free midday meals which wasn't the case at that time. So the situation as improved further reducing use of reservation.

Also you are not considering the effects of reservation on the wealthy SC/ST/OBC people. Their children study less, they actually study less, since they know they can use reservation. Did you know that?  If reservation was less , lets say 10%, then there would be competition, but that is not the case since so much reservation is present. You are giving them 50% reservation + any amount of seats they want from open category! 

One more point of view to look at reservation is the divide and rule policy adapted by the government. Are you even considering the effects of breaking the nation based on their caste and religion? Do you think when a line is crossed open category people are just going to sit back and take the beating?


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## MetalheadGautham (Jul 11, 2009)

karnivore said:


> Please do me a favour and try to read in the right context.
> In any case, they are just as good or bad, as you me or any other general category students.


Exactly. The only difference between SC/ST/OBC students and other students is that the former have a darker past. Academically speaking they are both EQUAL.

And answer hpotter606's questions first.

What makes you think that SC/ST/OBC students can't get economic aid ? PSU Banks here give priority loans to these students over other students. And no respectable institution would deny admission to a student because he/she is a SC/ST/OBC. Institutes only care about 2 things often - Respect and Money. As long as he studies and gets a great job and brings up the average pay rate of campus placement students and as long as he pays his fees, he faces absolutely no discrimination. The former needs the student to have entered on the same terms as GM students.


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## vamsi_krishna (Jul 11, 2009)

MHG,IMO,

Reservation system should exist on the basis of economic in-equalites. And the persons who are physically or mentally retarded. But it should not be based on cast. I've seen many SC/ST/BC people who have multi storied building and seen bramhins who do preast work in 3 tempels to earn 500rs a month for temple and living in very pathetic situations. Who's ass is kicked when his son went to EAMCET counseling. 

It's a undeniable fact that SC/ST/BC peoples are facing discrimiations in many places(Including my small village). But I'm glad that people's way of thinking is different in metro/cosmos.

I'm a guy who falls under OC. what i am supposed to get after BC,SC,ST,women,Handicap, OBC, minority quota of reservations..


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## karnivore (Jul 11, 2009)

*hpotter606*

Ok kid. One more time, although you haven't said anything new. Same old canards.

*Why wouldn't the economic benefit reach the only the people from SC/ST/OBC? *

  Because of the social ostracism. Economic benefits are institutionalized, and unless one gets within the folds of the institutes (which include primary level schools), one can’t get the benefits. Govt. doesn’t go door to door giving out money, in case you are wondering. I thought I had explained, although briefly, how the institutionalized economic benefits operate. It this quota system that brings the backward class to the institutes. Without quota, they will simply be left out of the loop.

  Unless of course, you are denying that social ostracism exists. Are you now ?

*Now what about the wealthy and middle class SC/ST/OBC people.* *Why should they get the benefit since they have already attained a high enough social status either through business or by service or by any other means?*

  First, this is called shifting of goal post. 

  Second, you haven’t read all my posts, because I have addressed this issue more number of times than any other. But for you I will say this once more. Ideally they shouldn’t. But they do, that is a fact and that is a shame. But, I have asked to many members, give me some data that these people exist in more number than the impoverished backward classes, that the most backward class students in the colleges, not one or two colleges mind you, but cumulatively, come from this socially backward but economically affluent class. I am still waiting for such data. Hopefully you can provide some now.

  I however stand by whatever I had said earlier. That exceptions don’t make a rule. That, just because some people are taking undue advantage of a system, that doesn’t mean that the system is to be scrapped. If that’s how it went, we would be left with a society with no law at all.

*Are people actually forcing them not the study that too only at higher education? Because if other people are not letting them study, why would they let the people from SC/ST/OBC study until 12th either?

*Basically you are now down to denying that caste discrimination exists. That is a little nauseating, frankly. Yes, society does force them not to study, and not just at the level of higher education, but through out. It is because of this, that reservation exists. So that, they can get a fair chance. 

*Your entire argument that the reservation is to achieve equal footing collapses when the rich people from SC/ST/OBC are considered. *

  Really. Ok here’s the deal. You get me the following data:

  a) percentage of “rich/middle” class backward caste compared to poor backward class (preferably countrywide data).
  c) their (“rich/middle” class backward caste) concentration in rural areas compared to cities (both percentage and absolute figure).
  d) their (“rich/middle” class backward caste) concentration in school/colleges (in totality) compared to poor backward class (both percentage and absolute figure).

  If the data show that the “rich/middle” class backward caste are in overwhelming majority in all the segments, I will concede defeat. Till then, my point is far from “collapsing”. And if you can’t back up your assertion, with data, I will expect you to do the honourable thing and accept that you are merely speculating.
*
Then again if we have come this far, why not give scholarships to people from open category if they have less money?

*Scholarships exist, soft loans exist.

*Also if you reserving a large amount of seats for them then why allow them to take admission in open quota too? *

  For one thing, the “open” quota will not longer remain “open” and it will then become reserved for non-backward community. This in turn would require an explicit admission by the govt. that non-backward community requires reservation and also a declaration of the basis on which it has reached this decision.

  For another, the system of quota is a form of affirmative action, which implies helping those who need help for various reasons. The open quota is for those who don’t. 

*I think you are contradicting yourself here. In the last 2 posts you have admitted that the caste is not the criteria during admission in higher education institutes. Now you say the are not ALLOWED to take admission. *

  It would have saved you a whole lot of typing, if you had paid some attention to my previous post and taken some time off to think. You missed a key sentence: “*[FONT=&quot]Suppose there is no quota system[/FONT]*”. Which means, that they are “ALLOWED” because of quota system (and strict law), but hadn’t there been one, they wouldn’t have. 

*Also the amount of study they do is in their hand and nobody else can do anything about it. *

  You mean after their day job of cobbling or cleaning your sewer or something similar like that. Yes they have so much time after that.

*Again this has nothing to do with social backwardness since this is the issue of money not social discrimination. *

  I am now convinced that you do not really understand what is social discrimination and the extent of it within our society.

*Which other types of DISPARITY that exist? *

  Among others, including caste, how about on sex and physically disadvantage. 

*Are wealthy SC/ST/OBC having problem regarding study or admission due to these disparities? If yes, then in what way. This is the most important question of all and please reply to this one with logical reasoning and examples.*

  See above.

*So the situation as improved further reducing use of reservation.*

  It is because of reservation that the situation has improved, only marginally and not nearly enough, not despite it. You haven’t paid much attention to the statistics that I have quoted in various posts. This one is a repetition, with a few addition:
  In 1991, the literacy rates among SC males and females in the rural areas, were, *46%* and *19.5%*. In 2001, the corresponding rates were, *53.7% *and *37.6%*. Increase of 7.8 and 18.1 percent points, respectively. Among non-SC/ST males and females, in 1991, in rural areas, the literacy rates were, *63.4%* and *35.4%*. In 2001, the corresponding rates were, *74.3%* and *50.2%*. That is an increase of 10.9 and 14.8 percent points, respectively. The interesting points that come out of this is:

1. SC females in 2001 were marginally ahead of what the non-SC/ST females were in 1991. Roughly speaking, they are about *10 years behind their non-SC/ST counterparts*.

2. SC males in 2001 were still lagging behind what the non-SC/ST males were in 1991, by at least 9.7% points. *They are lagging even miserably*. _This is understandable, because it is mostly the males who go out for work. So much for ample time to study._

 3. The rate of literacy among SC females is greater than that of non-SC/ST females, which means, that they will catch up with their non-SC/ST counterparts, eventually

 4. The rate of literacy among SC males is far less than that of non-SC/ST males. This means, *that the gap, instead of closing is still increasing*.

  Exactly which part of that statistics tell you that the “use of reservation” is reduced.

*Also you are not considering the effects of reservation on the wealthy SC/ST/OBC people.*

  I am getting tired now. 

*Do you think when a line is crossed open category people are just going to sit back and take the beating?*

  It is this elitist mindset that I talked of earlier.


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## karnivore (Jul 11, 2009)

MetalheadGautham said:


> The only difference between SC/ST/OBC students and other students is that the former have a *darker past*. Academically speaking they are both EQUAL.


  It is not about “darker past”, but the consequences of the “darker past”. And yes, they are academically equal. Thank you for finally realizing that. Socially, they are not.



> What makes you think that SC/ST/OBC students can't get economic aid ? PSU Banks here give priority loans to these students over other students. And no respectable institution would deny admission to a student because he/she is a SC/ST/OBC. Institutes only care about 2 things often - Respect and Money. As long as he studies and gets a great job and brings up the average pay rate of campus placement students and as long as he pays his fees, he faces absolutely no discrimination. The former needs the student to have entered on the same terms as GM students.


  In a perfect society, perhaps yes. As with loans to students, you will have to be a student first to apply for loan. In most cases you have to first show to the bank that you have secured confirmed admission to a college and only then you will get the loan. No admission no loan.

  As with denying admission, read Mondal Commission report. This is the umpteenth number of times I am asking you guys to argue on the basis of data not emotion.


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## MetalheadGautham (Jul 11, 2009)

karnivore said:


> It is not about “darker past”, but the consequences of the “darker past”. And yes, they are academically equal. Thank you for finally realizing that. Socially, they are not.





> You mean after their day job of cobbling or cleaning your sewer or something similar like that. Yes they have so much time after that.



Lemme just tell you this: Not every SC/ST/OBC is a guy who cleans the sewers and tries to study in his part time. You have got a perfectly wrong picture of the country. In some remote villages ? Yes but in rest of India ? No.

90% of those who get seats through reservation are otherwise perfectly normal kids who don't deserve any such special treatment.

And you are once again going back to indirectly seeming to state that Economic Reservation alone should exist and not caste based reservation. Sons of cobblers, those who work at shops with little time to study - they are not SC/ST/OBC people alone. And its also them who need reservation, or atleast special colleges where they can atleast get a chance to graduate into the mainstream.



> In a perfect society, perhaps yes. As with loans to students, you will have to be a student first to apply for loan. In most cases you have to first show to the bank that you have secured confirmed admission to a college and only then you will get the loan. No admission no loan.


 
And obviously banks won't give loans without you first confirming your admission. What's wrong with that ?

And most top private universities have tie-ups with banks for offering instant loans during admission while top central universities like IITs and NITs are such that even showing on the internet that you have been offered a seat in the online councelling is enough to get a loan.

Actually its a lot easier for SC/ST/OBC students to get a loan than other students. By lot I mean a LOT.

These two coupled together ==> instant education loans for reserved students.



> As with denying admission, read Mondal Commission report. This is the umpteenth number of times I am asking you guys to argue on the basis of data not emotion.



Data collected when ?

Data collected from which colleges ? IITs ? NITs ? Respectable private institues like BITs, MIT, VIT, SRM, RVCE, etc ? Or just tukada local degree colleges where it doesn't matter that you even GET the degree ?


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## karnivore (Jul 12, 2009)

*MetalheadGautham*

*You have got a perfectly wrong picture of the country.*

  If you say so. Btw, where is this “rest of India”. How big is this “rest of India”, in terms of population compared to the other rest of India. 

  Census 2001 somebody? Anybody?

*90% of those who get seats through reservation are otherwise perfectly normal kids who don't deserve any such special treatment.

*
  Where did you get this “90%” figure. Which govt document, which research, which survey. Is it publicly available document or just something that resides inside someone’s arse. Back it up or take a hike.

*And you are once again going back to indirectly seeming to state that Economic Reservation alone should exist and not caste based reservation.*

  Whose papa was Sita ?

*And obviously banks won't give loans without you first confirming your admission. What's wrong with that ?*

  Nothing. The question is not of bank procedure but of first cause. You don’t get a loan until your admission is confirmed. So it brings you back to square one, where you have to ensure that you get admission. Only after that does the question of loan kicks in. Therefore admission is the first cause. 

  See where am going with this?

*Data collected from which colleges ? IITs ? NITs ? Respectable private institues like BITs, MIT, VIT, SRM, RVCE, etc ? Or just tukada local degree colleges where it doesn't matter that you even GET the degree ?*

  Mondal commission collected data from the IITs and BITs. During that time, there weren’t private colleges. Sarcasm looks good if you actually know what you are talking about. Otherwise it makes you look like a fool.


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## MetalheadGautham (Jul 12, 2009)

karnivore said:


> If you say so. Btw, where is this “rest of India”. How big is this “rest of India”, in terms of population compared to the other rest of India.
> 
> Census 2001 somebody? Anybody?



Census 2001 ? Hmm... 8 years from then ? A 10 year old then would now be seeking admissions to college now.



> Where did you get this “90%” figure. Which govt document, which research, which survey. Is it publicly available document or just something that resides inside someone’s arse. Back it up or take a hike.



A survay of common colleges. And most government documents you refer to are outdated POS.



> Whose papa was Sita ?



Not mine. Again deviating from a question.



> Nothing. The question is not of bank procedure but of first cause. You don’t get a loan until your admission is confirmed. So it brings you back to square one, where you have to ensure that you get admission. Only after that does the question of loan kicks in. Therefore admission is the first cause.
> 
> See where am going with this?



Yes. I clearly see where you are going with this. But at the same time its perfectly right that you have to ENSURE that you get admission. In my world (where I lack reservation) I do it by studying hard and passing entrance exams for the college I want to join. If someone can't do that its HIS problem.



> Mondal commission collected data from the IITs and BITs. During that time, there weren’t private colleges. Sarcasm looks good if you actually know what you are talking about. Otherwise it makes you look like a fool.



Indeed. In which year ?

And back to the part about "indirect discrimination". Do you realize that the "indirect discrimination" happens because meritorious students are pissed off that undeserving students get a seat only because they come from a reserved caste.

If there was NO reservation, there would be no indirect discrimination starting from the batch of students where EVERYONE joins with the same benchmark.

Do you know that even in colleges where there are quotas like "NRI Quota" which are payment seats there is a certain form of discrimination against the students who got in purely by money by those who came through hard work and merit ? Its just subduded because the power of money ensures that the effect of discrimination is lesser. But that's a totally different topic.

The bottom line is that there is ALWAYS some form of resentful feeling among those who get into an institution through merit against those who get into it via easier terms. Merit students almost always feel proud (and rightly so) at having reached where they are after achieving highest percentile scores.


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## hpotter606 (Jul 12, 2009)

@karnivore
You are unbelievable dude. I see now why mediator got tired of replying to your posts. First you say social discrimination exists. On the other hand you yourself have no firsthand knowledge of it. Have you surveyed these areas you say have social discrimination? Have you been to every single of the village or even majority of villages?  I am sure you haven't. As i have already said my best friend is from small village in Bihar and he also said social discrimination does not exists anymore, though it existed in the past. As he lives in the region that you keep talking about and he has made it without any reservation, I think thats more than enough data to understand who has got the right picture of the social discrimination. One more thing you keep contradicting yourself on is the examples. You keep giving me examples of poor people and still you refuse to believe that economic reservation would be better. Again and again i keep saying this, if 90% of reserved people are poor, they would still be able to take benefit of reservation based on economic condition as criteria. You keep ignoring this simple logic and keep telling me that they will not get the benefit. If they can get a caste certificate, surely its not so hard to show amount of money they earn! 

You are asking us to give data on wealthy SC/ST/OBC. Have you even read the mandal commission report? Have you heard about the creamy layer criteria suggested by them and ignored by government. Isnt that DATA? I will tell you the fault in your logic. You believe since the number of wealthy people is much less than poor, most poor people will get benefit (which is an economic criteria by the way). Once again you are displaying your ignorance about reality when you say these types of things. The total number of seats in institutions is much less than total no poor people for one thing. Then you are also ignorant about how many poor SC/ST/OBC get to these institution. I can tell you because i just completed my engineering and you on the other hand have no first hand knowledge in this case. Most of them dont need it.

Also you are saying SC/ST/OBC will be denied admission if quota system does not exit which is totally wrong as the people will be jailed if they do something like that and not because there is a quota system but because that will be the violation of constitutional rights of people of India.

If you still say that social discrimination exits, then again your logic fails. Why? Because it exits only for the poor SC/ST/OBCs. So they come under less money criteria and so they still get the benefit of reservation. If people are not letting them study when they have got reservation on economic basis, why would they let them study when caste based reservation exists? Isnt that illogical? The people you say need reservation, will get benefit either way. This is the point i am stating all the time and you keep ignoring it since you cant answer the questions. You are ignoring that they will still get the benefit under economic criteria and if they are not getting it in economic criteria there is no way they will get it just because the system is caste based. Got it? 

BTW do you even know what elitism is? If you dont, read it on wikipedia. If you dont trust wiki then read it somewhere else, but read and understand first and then talk. Also i was referring  to riots that this scheme will cause.


Here is the simple way for you to understand my logic.

Poor SC/ST/OBC -> Come under reservation based on caste as well as economic condition
Rich SC/ST/OBC -> Come under reservation base on caste only
Poor non SC/ST/OBC -> Come under reservation based on economic condition only.
Rich non SC/ST/OBC -> Dont come under any type of reservation

Categories which need reservation
1. Poor SC/ST/OBC
2. Poor non SC/ST/OBC

Categories which don't need reservation
1. Rich SC/ST/OBC (doesnt matter if they exist or not since they dont need it)
2. Rich non SC/ST/OBC 

Schemes which cover the categories which need reservation
->Reservation based on economic condition.

Consequences of using a caste based reservation scheme
1. Poor SC/ST/OBC get reservation
2. Rich SC/ST/OBC get reservation and use most of it. (dont need)
3. Poor non SC/ST/OBC dont get reservation (need)
4. Rich non SC/ST/OBC dont get reservation.

Hence proved

Another logic regarding social discrimination 
1. People dont let the poor SC/ST/OBC study.
2. People cant do anything to rich SC/ST/OBC (doesnt matter if they exist or not)
3. People let the poor SC/ST/OBC study because of reservation only
4. people wont let them study if reservation based on caste does not exist.
5. Now tell me why wont they let the same SC/ST/OBC study if they are still getting reservation under economic condition.
6. Why are the people letting SC/ST/OBC study till 12th only and what happen only at the time of higher education study? He/she is going to leave his house to study in the city anyway.

Having rich SC/ST/OBC also reduces the number of poor SC/ST/OBC to get the reservation but you wouldnt mind since you are hell bent of destroying India at any cost.

Also while you are at it, you should change your medieval mindset.


One thing i forgot to mention is that reservation is needed (if its needed) only because the number of seats for higher education is less. The problem can be solved by creating new institutions with the help of private companies which care only about money so are bound to give good education for their own sake. So there wont be any need for reservation. These companies wont care about caste of the person when admitting them as they dont have to do vote bank politics to survive giving equal opportunities to all.

Lets believe for the moment that reservation is actually helping the SC/ST/OBC in some way to gain status and money(isnt this the whole point of reservation?) faster than any other way. Is the fastest way the best way all the time? You are simply taking something from one person and giving it to another. Wouldnt it be better if both have it? Even if both can have it, why will you choose a way only one person can have it? And please dont tell me there isnt a way both can have the same thing. So many ways have been already proposed that i wont bore you with all of those any more.

I think the main problem here is you are trying to achieve a different goal than i am trying to achieve. If i go by my way, i will achieve my goal. If you go by your way, you will achieve your goal. So i think i am right and you think you are right too.
This defeats the whole purpose of having a debate since we are not having the debate to achieve the same goal. As long as this is the case, there is now way a conclusion can be reached.

Anyway nice talking to you. Inform it here if you change the goal and want to have an actual debate.


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## karnivore (Jul 12, 2009)

Here goes another post, to the sewer that is.  





hpotter606 said:


> First you say social discrimination exists. On the other hand you yourself have no firsthand knowledge of it. Have you surveyed these areas you say have social discrimination? Have you been to every single of the village or even majority of villages? I am sure you haven't.


  You know jack about me or my profession. Let it remain that way.


> As i have already said my best friend is from small village in Bihar and he also said social discrimination does not exists anymore, though it existed in the past. As he lives in the region that you keep talking about and he has made it without any reservation, I think thats more than enough data to understand who has got the right picture of the social discrimination.


  A country of 100+ crores and experience of one is “enough” ? You sure you are not insane ?


> One more thing you keep contradicting yourself on is the examples. You keep giving me examples of poor people and still you refuse to believe that economic reservation would be better. Again and again i keep saying this, if 90% of reserved people are poor, they would still be able to take benefit of reservation based on economic condition as criteria. You keep ignoring this simple logic and keep telling me that they will not get the benefit. *If they can get a caste certificate, surely its not so hard to show amount of money they earn!*


  Yes it is. Clue – BPL certificates


> You are asking us to give data on wealthy SC/ST/OBC. Have you even read the mandal commission report? Have you heard about the creamy layer criteria suggested by them and ignored by government. Isnt that DATA?


  Is that how you are going to argue now. Anyway. Yes, I have read Mandal Commission report, not in entirety though. And yes, I know what is creamy layer and I also know, the impediments of selecting the creamy layer, which I am sure you do not have too much of an idea. If you had, you wouldn’t have raised the issue, here.



> I will tell you the fault in your logic. You believe since the number of wealthy people is much less than poor, most poor people will get benefit (*which is an economic criteria by the way*). Once again you are displaying your ignorance about reality when you say these types of things. The total number of seats in institutions is much less than total no poor people for one thing. Then you are also ignorant about how many poor SC/ST/OBC get to these institution……*Most of them dont need it*


  1st bold: To put it correctly, socio-economic criteria. The term “socio” makes this criteria unique.

  2nd bold: It is this “Most” that I am trying to get a figure on. One of your friends has pulled a figure right out of his butt. What are you going to do. Pull it from your own or his ? Almost every anti-reservationist, on this forum is using this excuse. Now if this is such a common experience, then it shouldn’t be too difficult to pull a figure from somewhere.



> Also you are saying SC/ST/OBC will be denied admission if quota system does not exit which is totally wrong as the people will be jailed if they do something like that and not because there is a quota system but because that will be the violation of constitutional rights of people of India.


  This I got from Mandal Commission report. Previously, before part of Mandal Commission was implemented and un-occupied quotas were not frozen, IITs and BITs used an ingenious method. They simply didn’t fill there quota and in some cases they just wouldn’t fill a single seat (that happened with BITs). The un-occupied quotas were then filled up by general quota students and needless to say, rampant corruption ensued. That’s why Mandal Commission froze the quotas. Even then, IITs do not fill up their quota, since, they are not obliged to.

  Denial doesn’t have to be direct. There are ten thousand ways of bending a rule without breaking it.


> If you still say that social discrimination exits, then again your logic fails. Why? Because it exits only for the poor SC/ST/OBCs. So they come under less money criteria and so they still get the benefit of reservation. If people are not letting them study when they have got reservation on economic basis, why would they let them study when caste based reservation exits? Isnt that illogical?


  Once again, you are ignoring the “socio” part of the “socio-economic” criteria. Professor Sen to the rescue again.

  “The blighting of the lives of Dalits or people from other disadvantaged castes, or of members of Scheduled Tribes, is particularly severe when the caste or tribal adversities are further magnified by abject penury” (_The Argumentative Indian_, pg 207)

  Since you are an engineer, you know it better than me – Garbage In, Garbage Out or GIGO. If premise is wrong, the conclusion would be wrong.

  Your premise: 

  The caste discrimination is essentially, due to economic disparity and the existence of rich/middle class backward caste, who are able to carry on with their lives/vocations/professions, without discrimination, prove that caste discrimination is actually another form of economic discrimination. Therefore removing economic disparity will automatically remove caste based discrimination

  Your conclusion:

  Reservation should be based on economic criteria, since it is the primary basis of discrimination.

  Wrong premise, wrong conclusion. The reality is just the opposite, as far as SC/ST/OBCs are concerned.

  From “_Economic exclusion & poverty in India_” by Sukhadeo Thorat:




			
				Sukhadeo Thorat said:
			
		

> Broadly speaking, social exclusion can be defined as “the process through which individuals or groups are wholly or partially excluded from full participation in the society within which they live.” The concept rightly focuses on both the processes by which social and economic institutions exclude groups, and the multidimensional nature of the adverse consequences experienced by those who are excluded.
> 
> Social exclusion is group-based in nature. Economic exclusion or discrimination affects whole groups in a society, independent of the income, productivity, or merit of individuals within the group. Anyone can be excluded from access to markets because of lack of income, or from employment on the grounds of low productivity, or from admission to educational institutions on the basis of low merit. *In the case of group-based exclusion, however, the basis for exclusion is group identity and not the economic or productive characteristics of the specific individual*. While exclusion does result in the denial of economic opportunities—such as access to capital assets, development of skills, and education—*the originating cause is not lack of income, productivity, or merit but rather the individual’s group identity*.
> 
> ...


  To summarize the above:

  Social discrimination in the name of caste, results in not just social backwardness, i.e inadequate representation in the society, but economic backwardness as well – arising directly and indirectly from the social discrimination. In other words, for the SC/ST/OBC, in addition to the usual causes, one major cause of their economic backwardness is social backwardness resulting from social discrimination, which is unique to these groups. Thus, for the SC/ST/OBC, social discrimination is first cause of economic backwardness.

  *i180.photobucket.com/albums/x31/trash609/1.jpg

  If the govt. concentrated only on the aspect of economic backwardness, then three important pieces of the puzzle would remain unaddressed. “Social discrimination”, “social backwardness” arising out of social discrimination (both of past and current) and “economic backwardness” arising out of such social discrimination. Since, the social discrimination and the resulting backwardness remain unaddressed, the resultant economic backwardness  would continue to exist, even though, by some miracle, all the “other causes” are somehow removed. 

  This in turn means, that the disparity between the general caste and the lower caste, will continue to exist, both from social point of view as well as economic point of view. The govt. therefore adopts two fold policy to meat these three aspects:

  Social discrimination: through enactment of laws (although, implementation leaves a hell of a lot to be desired) and this is primarily to address current discrimination.

  Social backwardness: through reservation on the basis of caste, to ensure, greater representation of the backward community in the society and primarily, to undo the consequences of social discrimination in the past.

  Economic backwardness: through numerous poverty eradication programs and sops, e.g. free education, mid day meal, subsidizing higher education, enabling soft loans to the unemployed etc.

  This should explain the theoretical part of why reservation on the basis of caste is preferred over economic criterion. Because, only this form of reservation can address the social issue, which is, in any case the primary objective of caste based reservation. Reservation on economic criteria can’t address the economic backwardness that arises from social issues. 

  Gang – Sen – Yun in their paper “Was Mandal Commission right” argue that for the OBC, it is the lack of education that has resulted in their low standard of living, while for SC, it is the type of work they do, and for ST, it is the location. They however reach a conclusion that “the Mandal Commission may have been partly right and partly wrong in its recommendations: while *seat reservations in educational institutions may help to some extent in reducing the difference in living standards between the Other Backward Classes and the mainstream population*, it is less certain that job quotas will contribute to the same extent.” 

  In order to understand the issue with backward class, I suggest you read “Indentifying OBC” by Ramaiah.

  The argument that the existence of the rich/middle class, falsifies the idea that discrimination is based on caste, is itself a riddled with fallacy. It assumes that money is the source of discrimination and not caste. The above arguments negate that premise. 

  In view of the above, let me redraft your simple equation: (ugh..no stike through. The underlined part is relevant and the non-underlined part irrelevant)

Poor SC/ST/OBC -> Come under reservation based on caste as well as economic condition
Rich SC/ST/OBC -> Come under reservation base on caste only
Poor non SC/ST/OBC -> Come under reservation based on economic condition only.
Rich non SC/ST/OBC -> Dont come under any type of reservation <Non SC/ST/OBC do not need any reservation, because the affirmative action in form of reservation is not a poverty alleviation program, but a social upliftment program>

Categories which need reservation
1. Poor SC/ST/OBC
2. Poor non SC/ST/OBC

Categories which don't need reservation
1. Rich SC/ST/OBC (doesnt matter if they exist or not since they dont need it)
2. Rich non SC/ST/OBC 

Schemes which cover the categories which need reservation
->Reservation based on economic condition caste

Consequences of using a caste based reservation scheme
1. Poor SC/ST/OBC get reservation
2. Rich SC/ST/OBC get reservation and use most of it. (dont need) (collateral)
3. Poor non SC/ST/OBC dont get reservation (need) <Nope. Purpose of reservation is not to alleviate the poor, but to alleviate the one's who are socially backward
4. Rich non SC/ST/OBC dont get reservation.

  Another logic regarding social discrimination 
1. People dont let the poor SC/ST/OBC study.
2. People cant do anything to rich SC/ST/OBC (doesnt matter if they exist or not)
3. People let the poor SC/ST/OBC study because of reservation only
4. people wont let them study if reservation based on caste does not exist.
5. Now tell me why wont they let the same SC/ST/OBC study if they are still getting reservation under economic condition. < There is no one word/sentence answer to it. The above paragraphs should explain some parts of it.
6. Why are the people letting SC/ST/OBC study till 12th only and what happen only at the time of higher education study? < The dynamics are different at this level. I have probably explained it in one of my earlier posts>  He is going to leave his house to study in the city anyway.



> Having rich SC/ST/OBC also reduces the number of poor SC/ST/OBC to get the reservation but you wouldnt mind since *you are hell bent of destroying India at any cost*.


  …because I am a paid ISI/CIA double agent. Shhhhhhh…don’t tell it to anybody.


> The problem can be solved by creating new institutions with the help of private companies…


  Do not disagree.


> …helping the SC/ST/OBC in some way to gain status and *money(isnt this the whole point of reservation?*)


  No. And this is where you and all who try to push economic criteria as the basis, are wrong.


> Is the fastest way the best way all the time?


  Strawman


> You are simply taking something from one person and giving it to another.


  Amazing. For generations continue oppression, then when its time to give them a helping hand, out comes the accusation of “taking something from one person and giving it to another.” That’s despicable.  This is what is called elitism, and no, I don’t need on one to teach me what it is.



> Wouldnt it be better if both have it? Even if both can have it, why will you choose a way only one person can have it? And please dont tell me there isnt a way both can have the same thing.


  Not where resource is limited. 


> I think the main problem here is you are trying to achieve a different goal than i am trying to achieve. If i go by my way, i will achieve my goal. If you go by your way, you will achieve your goal. So i think i am right and you think you are right too.
> This defeats the whole purpose of having a debate since we are not having the debate to achieve the same goal. As long as this is the case, there is now way a conclusion can be reached.


  I am trying to fill a half filled glass, and you are trying to drain what is already there. Yes our goals are different, but apparently, the world thinks my goal is the correct one. How about that.

Oh thank you for ruining my evening by sending me on a wild goose chase.


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## hpotter606 (Jul 13, 2009)

Again there is a lot of illogical reasoning on your part but as i have already said your goal is only uplifting people from SC/ST/OBC at whatever cost, there is no point in arguing anymore. Also the open category people belong to this world only in case you dont know.

You are talking about giving helping hand? How do they get scholarships in the first place (which i am not against and Scholarships can be given without quota)? Are we paying taxes or not? If general people are as rich as you say they are, then most of the income tax would be generated by these people.

You know the foremost reason for reservation? Because its not costing government as much money as creating new institutions will cost. They are getting a lot of votes with lot lesser amount of money. Thus india on whole will not gain anything, but general people will loose and SC/ST/OBC will gain (that too the rich ones).

As far as i can see you haven't come up with a single logical reason to justify reservation based on caste which is disappointing since you wrote so many pages on it. One thing i would suggest to you is this. For some time just do a role reversal(i will do the same) and argue about why reservation based on caste should not exist. This may at some level make you aware of our logic.


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## toofan (Jul 13, 2009)

Anyone knows where this Gareebii rekha lies.

So below this gareebi rekha should get the financial aid but not in entrance exams. Why to aid anyone in education or in jobs if he is not qualified for that.

Only qualified persons should be aided irrespective of there caste.


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## hpotter606 (Jul 13, 2009)

@toofan

I respect your opinion that financial aid should be based on economic condition. The issue raised by karnivore is ' how will the backward classes will become qualified if they dont get the admission in higher education institutions'? I couldnt find any logical reasoning in his justification, hopefully you can.


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## karnivore (Jul 13, 2009)

*hpotter606*

  Now this is what I call making a molehill out of a mountain. 

*…there is a lot of illogical reasoning on your part…*

  A lot ? In that case it won’t be difficult for you to point just ONE. But please don’t put the cart before the horse, like you did earlier. 

*…your goal is only uplifting people from SC/ST/OBC at whatever cost…*

  It is the goal of the system of reservation. The “cost” part is your assumption. No one is responsible for your assumptions. You can also assume that moon is made of Swiss cheese. No one’s going to sue you.

*Thus india on whole will not gain anything, but general people will loose and SC/ST/OBC will gain (that too the rich ones).*

  So basically your beef is that “SC/ST/OBC will gain”? Maybe you should now crawl back to the cave you emerged from. As with “general people” loosing, it is, at best, a straight-from-the-butt ignorance and misplaced paranoia, at worst.

*As far as i can see you haven't come up with a single logical reason to justify reservation based on caste…*

  As far as you can see? Then, buddy you should set an appointment with your ophthalmologist at the earliest. Myopia is not to be neglected. It would also help if you quit your hobby of emulating an ostrich.

*For some time just do a role reversal(i will do the same) and argue about why reservation based on caste should not exist. *

  I used to be a die hard anti-reservationist like you, although my reasoning was entirely different from yours. Surprisingly, not one member raised those doubts. 

*The issue raised by karnivore is ' how will the backward classes will become qualified if they dont get the admission in higher education institutions'? I couldnt find any logical reasoning in his justification, hopefully you can.*

  The underlined part is, what in debating circle called, strawman. Anyway, you began your arguments on one point, and now ending it on another, pushing your goal post so far and wide, that an entire jumbo jet can pass through it, with plenty of room to spare.

  Your argument was: reservation should be based on economic criteria, because you thought, that all this discrimination actually boiled downed to, just plain money.

  My counter-argument was:

  a) Affirmative action – which the caste based reservation is – is not a poverty eradication program. It’s objective is to bring about a social equilibrium, by enabling the socially backward class to access the resources of opportunities, equally with the mainstream community. Since, this is a social scheme, the social factor, that is responsible for such inequality in the society, should, therefore, be the basis of such positive discrimination. 

  b) Social backwardness itself breeds economic backwardness. So, if economic factor is made the criterion for affirmative action, it will not be able to address that part of the economic disparity which arises out of social ostracism. Therefore, it stands to reason that the social backwardness is dealt differently from the economic backwardness, for which, the govt. already have plenty of schemes.

  Which part of this counter-argument seems to be saying “how will the backward classes will become qualified if they dont get the admission in higher education institutions”. 

  The only response you could muster is an idiotic and escapist retort, that your goal is different than mine. If you had really spent 4 hrs reading my post, it would have been aptly clear there and then, because I don’t believe I have said anything different now. There was no need for this one-o-one. So stop being a pretentious brat. 

  Next time if you wish to reply, comeback with proper rebuttal, backed up by data. Otherwise stay square. 

  Waste of time, waste of bandwidth.


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## hpotter606 (Jul 13, 2009)

Again you are showing your medieval mindset in above post. But it seems to me you will only see things are you want to see and nothing anyone says matter to you. As for the illogical reasoning, i have pointed it out plenty of times (so have many before me) and you simply ignore it. So no point in doing it again. 

The goal of the reservation system (which ultimately makes it your goal) is to uplift the SC/ST/OBC people at any cost which is not the goal i am trying to achieve. So stop making stupid statements without understanding the meaning.

You are telling me that 'open people will loose a lot' is a misplaced paranoia? Are you really that stupid? These type of stupid arguments YOU keep making, not me. Instead of telling me its a misplaced paranoia, you could have told me how reservation is benefiting the open category people or even 'not affecting' them.

By the way, your counter arguments are (again) totally illogical. The way you try to prove things make me think you can easily prove that Einstein was an idiot. But only you will believe it.


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## karnivore (Jul 13, 2009)

…and strawmen continue to rule the roost. 

*As for the illogical reasoning, i have pointed it out plenty of times (so have many before me) and you simply ignore it. *

  One more time. Show me which part of my argument is illogical and why it is so. Also show me which point I have ignored.

*The goal of the reservation system (which ultimately makes it your goal) is to uplift the SC/ST/OBC people at any cost*… 

  The cost part, again is your imagination. 

*Instead of telling me its a misplaced paranoia, you could have told me how reservation is benefiting the open category people or even 'not affecting' them.

*
  One who is claiming, is supposed to prove his claim, not necessarily the one who is criticizing it. IIRC, it was you who claimed that the open category will loose a lot and therefore, the onus is on you to prove that it is so.

*…your counter arguments are (again) totally illogical*. 

  …and I am still waiting for the rebuttal.

*The way you try to prove things make me think you can easily prove that Einstein was an idiot.*

  Projecting ?

Shooo kid. Run along now. Go back to playing with your crayons.


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## hpotter606 (Jul 13, 2009)

I wish i had time to reply to your idiotic comments. But unlike you i have more important things to do. By the way, you are the one who is claiming that open category people will not be affected. So the onus is on YOU not me to prove the claim.
I suggest you start going to primary school again  or of-course you can go to a psychiatrist.


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## karnivore (Jul 14, 2009)

hpotter606 said:


> I wish i had time to reply to your idiotic comments. But unlike you *i have more important things to do*.


...and yet you could spare 4 hrs just to read my posts. I guess "important things" just fall like confetti at opportune moments, like, say for example, when its your turn to back up your claims and whines.

Typical new-kid-on-the-block syndrome. Every kid thinks he knows better, until of course, a thorough azz-whooping. 



> By the way, *you are the one who is claiming that open category people will not be affected.* So the onus is on YOU not me to prove the claim.


I know, it is a common trait among losers to lie. *Post #135*

"...*general people will loose* and SC/ST/OBC will gain..."

No member, has been dumb enough to say something like this so bluntly. While they hinted at it, they never said it in so many words. 

Hello Mr Dumbo, nice to make your acquaintance.



> I suggest you start going to primary school again  or of-course you can go to a psychiatrist.


Yes I will be going to primary schools - to see if they will admit you. But before that, I need to set an appointment with a psychiatrist - on your behalf.

Actually the fault is mine. I shouldn't have entertained you in the first place. Your avatar and siggy were a dead give away. Silly me. Didn't notice.


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## hpotter606 (Jul 14, 2009)

Oh no. Its not your fault. Even after reading your stupid replies to other member, i thought i could put some sense in you. You proved me wrong buddy. I recommend primary education first since you cant understand simple English. Then after that, visit a psychiatrist and if even he cant help you, just stop having debates since you only embarrass yourself.
Good luck.

P.S. - In about 5-6 days after my exam, i will post a detailed reply to your arguments ( the questions you missed and questions you answered). But now i have to prepare for my exam.


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## rhitwick (Jul 14, 2009)

If I'm not interfering u guys, please stay on topic.


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## karnivore (Jul 14, 2009)

hpotter606 said:


> Oh no. Its not your fault. Even after reading your stupid replies to other member, i thought i could put some sense in you. You proved me wrong buddy. I recommend primary education first since you cant understand simple English. Then after that, visit a psychiatrist and if even he cant help you, just stop having debates since you only embarrass yourself.
> Good luck.


*i180.photobucket.com/albums/x31/trash609/theregoesmyIron-E-Meter.jpg



> P.S. - In about 5-6 days after my exam, i will post a detailed reply to your arguments ( the questions you missed and questions you answered). But now i have to prepare for my exam.


You could have said this a lot earlier and saved a lot of bugsh!t posts.

Anytime you are ready - you know where to knock.


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## hpotter606 (Jul 14, 2009)

I could have, but where is the fun in that?
see ya


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## toofan (Jul 14, 2009)

hpotter606 said:


> @toofan
> 
> I respect your opinion that financial aid should be based on economic condition. The issue raised by karnivore is ' how will the backward classes will become qualified if they dont get the admission in higher education institutions'? I couldnt find any logical reasoning in his justification, hopefully you can.



Whoever raised this question the answer is simple. 

If someone is brilliant it is easy for him to qualify the entrance exams by his hard work and after that he may be given the financial Aid/loan. To continue his studies. Now why an unqualified person who gets less marks form others be benefited. It will only results in the following comments.

"Are yaar SC hai iska to hona hi tha". Whether any reserved category has qualified in general quota but he has to wear this comment his whole life. So how can this reservation helped in removing the social inequallity. It may remove it financially but not socially. The altimate loss will be weared by our country by having unqualified at top.

And this reservation is provided through the service period.Promotions are given as per the Quota of that Caste. Other will remain commenting "Are yaar SC hai iska to hona hi tha".

LOL! to what we are leading???


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## MetalheadGautham (Jul 14, 2009)

toofan said:


> Whoever raised this question the answer is simple.
> 
> If someone is brilliant it is easy for him to qualify the entrance exams by his hard work and after that he may be given the financial Aid/loan. To continue his studies. Now why an unqualified person who gets less marks form others be benefited. It will only results in the following comments.
> 
> ...



Exactly. Karnivore tells that reservation was made to remove discrimination of SC/STs, while the only guys who discriminate against them are backward medivial Indians. But instead, its resulting in something a lot worse happening - even forward thinking Indians like myself dislike those students who come into colleges only because of their quota and not on the same terms as real meritorious students. This brings the name of genuinely hard working SC/STs down and personally knowing quite a few genuinely deserving (and at par with the rest of us) SC/ST/OBC students, I hate to see their name getting degraded due to their undeserving peers.

And again this brings me back to the economic reservation part. The government can give 100% fee subsidy to poor and meritorious SC/ST/OBC/OtherPoor students who enter into government colleges on the same terms as normal students and in return ask them to work for a minimum number of years under the government.

All government institutions need to follow the system of grants like in some universities abroad. Its something which benifits the students and the government mutually and at the same time can be given to everybody so that nobody is discriminated against by placing higher terms of admission for him just because he happens to be a non SC/ST/OBC student.

I know I stated this in an old post of mine, but I'm just stating it again because its a proven fact that removal of economic constrains on a person enables him to be independant and free from possible oppression by others.


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## karnivore (Jul 15, 2009)

Most of the comments, from the so called “forward thinking Indians”, are from ignorance of real issues, misinformation about the extent of social backwardness, and a misplaced paranoia that “incapable” persons are eating away jobs. The country, therefore is going to the dogs. Apparently mainstream students can do no harm to the country. They are, after all, filled to the brim with “merit” and “efficiency”. Most of these “forward thinking Indians”, on this forum, do not even understand what “egalitarianism” is (and yet they are somehow “forward thinkers”), and that, it is this “egalitarianism” that is the basis of the concept of equality enshrined in our constitution, and that, it is this “egalitarianism” that allows them to enjoy half the things that they take for granted e.g. heavily subsidized services which includes, higher education. That the affirmative action or positive discrimination is the result of this sense of equality, escapes the understanding of  our “forward thinking Indians”. Pity.

  Equality, as enshrined in our constitution, can work, if the society at large, is more or less equally capable of accessing the resources of opportunity. If however, one group of people is incapable, for whatever reason, the same concept of “equality” becomes a farce. It, then becomes necessary, for the govt. to ensure that the group that is incapable, as such, is given adequate support, so that they can be on an even keel with the rest. Economic benefits, given out by the govt. arise out of the same concept – that, a person can’t be penalized for being economically too weak to access the various opportunities, which he could otherwise access. But what about a person then, who can’t access the very same opportunities, not only because he is economically incapable, but additionally and primarily because he is placed far down the social pecking order. How does the same govt. ensure, equality for that person who is handicapped on two counts – economic and social.

  The common argument, this liberal with “medieval mindset” has got from the “forward thinking Indians” is an ingenious denial of, first, the existence of discrimination and second, the existence of social backwardness. I have a doubt, if these “forward” Indians are even aware, that the arguments they have made, require those ingenious denials. One member is actually on record claiming bliss in ignorance. The one-size-fits-all solution, favoured by these “forward” Indians, is of course, reservation on economic criteria. This implies, that social backwardness is not independent of economic backwardness and therefore, it is this economic backwardness that needs to be removed first. After all, “its a proven fact that removal of economic constrains on a person enables him to be independant and free from possible oppression by others”. So remove economic backwardness and voila, social backwardness will disappear. Just as easy as snatching a candy from a two year old kid. Naïve and arrogant.

  That money equals social advancement, is farcical on many levels, particularly in the absence of any clear mechanism to measure social advancement on economic scale. Recently, in 2008, Hon’ble Supreme Court (SC) passed a decision staying the quota increase and directing the govt. to determine, among other things, the so called “creamy layer”. This sent the striking students into an orgy of celebration, but they forgot to read the caveats placed by the SC. While directing the govt. to determine the “creamy layer”, the SC makes the following, pretty interesting, observation:



			
				A.K.Thakur v/s Union of India said:
			
		

> In our opinion, it is not a question of permissibility or desirability of such test but one of proper and more appropriate identification of a class a backward class. The very concept of a class denotes a number of persons having certain common traits which distinguish them from the others. In a backward class under clause (4) of Article 16, if the connecting link is the social backwardness, it should broadly be the same in a given class. If some of the members are far too advanced socially (which in the context, necessarily means economically and, may also mean educationally) the connecting thread between them and the remaining class snaps. They would be misfits in the class. After excluding them alone, would the class be a compact class. In fact, such exclusion benefits the truly backward. *Difficulty, however, really lies in drawing the line how and where to draw the line?* For, while drawing the line, it should be ensured that it does not result in taking away with one hand what is given by the other. *The basis of exclusion should not merely be economic, unless, of course, the economic advancement is so high that it necessarily means social advancement*. Let us illustrate the point. *A member of backward class, say a member of carpenter caste, goes to Middle East and works there as a carpenter. If you take his annual income in rupees, it would be fairly high from the Indian standard. Is he to be excluded from the Backward Class? Are his children in India to be deprived of the benefit of Article 16(4)? Situation may, however, be different, if he rises so high economically as to become say a factory owner himself. In such a situation, his social status also rises. He himself would be in a position to provide employment to others. In such a case, his income is merely a measure of his social status. Even otherwise there are several practical difficulties too in imposing an income ceiling. For example, annual income of Rs.36,000 may not count for much in a city like Bombay, Delhi or Calcutta whereas it may be a handsome income in rural India anywhere.* The line to be drawn must be a realistic one. Another question would be, should such a line be uniform for the entire country or a given State or should it differ from rural to urban areas and so on. Further, income from agriculture may be difficult to assess and, therefore, in the case of agriculturists, the line may have to be drawn with reference to the extent of holding. While *the income of a person can be taken as a measure of his social advancement, the limit to be prescribed should not be such as to result in taking away with one hand what is given with the other.* *The income limit must be such as to mean and signify social advancement.* At the same time, it must be recognised that there are certain positions, the occupants of which can be treated as socially advanced without any further enquiry. For example, if a member of a designated backward class becomes a member of IAS or IPS or any other All India Service, his status is society (social status) rises; he is no longer socially disadvantaged. His children get full opportunity to realize their potential. They are in no way handicapped in the race of life.


 
  The SC realizes, that economic criteria alone, is not nearly enough. It realizes, that money alone doesn’t necessarily translate into social advancement. A large section of backward community will remain untouched and unaffected if reservation is implemented on economic criteria alone. This is because, it is difficult, if not impossible, to determine, how much of economic advancement translates into social advancement. It is easy, in case of rich people, but they are too few and far between. The problem arises when it comes to, what is called on economic scale, the middle class. Should a middle class family, then be excluded from the benefit of reservation, simply because they are not poor enough to claim reservation, and yet socially just as backward. How would their social backwardness be remedied? This is highlighted by the SC by the illustration of backward class carpenter. The reservation based solely on economic criteria, fails miserably to address these complex issues, because, it uses a one-size-fits-all economic scale to identify the needy, completely disregarding the social aspect of the reasons of disparity.

  I had quoted before, Professor Amartya Sen, on how he agrees that, although “class” is a major cause of discrimination, it is certainly not the only cause and that, if any remedy, aimed at social improvement, is to be formulated, these dimensions are to be considered with equal gusto. We have here, the SC, echoing almost the same thing. We have numerous social scientists, some of whose research I have myself referenced here, saying the same thing. But apparently our “forward thinking Indians” are not convinced by the “medieval mindset” of these luminaries. 

  Another gripe, of the “forward thinking Indians”, regarding the reservation at higher education is that: why should a person, scoring less than a “forward thinking Indian” belonging to the mainstream, get to study at premier institute, while I, the “forward thinking Indian”, possessing magical powers with which I can, and intend to, transform India into a land of milk and honey, languish in a less than average private college? This essentially is another way of saying, “merit” is being discriminated against.

  This arises from a complete ignorance of social dynamics and its impact on resource sharing. The idea behind the reservation at higher education revolves around a seemingly simple question: Why do students from backward community score less than the mainstream students?

  Almost all “forward thinking Indians” on the forum, give an equally simple answer, or at least point in that direction - they don’t work hard enough. Reason takes a back seat to elitism, fuelled by ignorance. Oppressed throughout their entire existence, and now the students from backward community have to bear the accusation that they are “lazy”.

  Many of the backward class students, admitted to higher education, are first or perhaps second generation literates. They come from families, where for generations, nobody has stepped into a school, and have remained confined within a specific profession or vocation (and in some cases, as with ST, even within the same locality) and have been precluded from sharing the state resources. This has skewed the social advantage, disproportionately, in favour of the forward class. It is this, social backwardness, that makes it impossible for the students coming from these communities, to compete with the students in general quota. Their hard work is gobbled up by their social backwardness. Mandal Commission observes:



			
				The Mandal Commission Report said:
			
		

> Assuming that a child from an advanced class family and that of a backward class family had the same intelligence at the time of their birth, it is obvious that owing to vast differences in social, cultural and environmental factors, the former will beat the latter by lengths in any competitive field. Even if a backward class child’s intelligence quotient was much higher as compared to the child of advanced class, chances are that the former will lag far behind the latter in any competition where selection is made on the basis of ‘merit’.


 
  If only a single qualifying score is set, then it will result in asymmetric representation of the communities, with the forward class taking up almost all the seats, with very little to no representation from the backward communities. Affirmative action seeks to remove this asymmetric representation of communities through distribution of score, in a manner so that the difference in relative social position is reflected in the qualifying scores and thereby ensuring, that the individual communities are judged separately and not in terms of another community.

  The above argument is supported by Rohini Somanathan, in her paper “_Assumptions and Arithmetic of Caste-Based Reservation_”.


			
				R.Somanathan said:
			
		

> Suppose that there are two equal sized groups, A and B (“advanced” and “backward” if you like) who would like to enter institutions of higher education and a test is used to ration available seats. Test performance depends on a variety of other household characteristics which we call “social advantage”. This term is meant to capture economic resources, parental education, social status and networks, all of which influence the schools attended by these students and learning that takes place within and outside these schools.
> As a benchmark case, suppose that only those in group B are socially disadvantaged, that the scores for groups A and B are clustered around their medians tA and tB respectively (tA>tB), and that the extent of social disadvantage is well captured by the difference  tA-tB. If half of all applicants are admitted and the qualifying scores for both groups are the same, group B will be under-represented. *Any affirmative action policy that leaves the score distribution unchanged but seeks to restore the balance in the shares of the two groups admitted must necessarily drive a wedge between their qualifying scores.* In this case, using tA and tB as the qualifying scores for the two groups ensures half of each group gets admitted. Controlling for social disadvantage in this case leads to equal representation of both groups because disadvantage fully accounts for the differences in their medians. *Stated more generally, for any population shares of the two groups, group B will be under-represented in the absence of affirmative action policies if the test score distribution for group A first-order stochastically dominates that for B. Setting group-specific qualifying thresholds will lead to equal representation if differences in the distributions of scores across groups arise only because of social disadvantage.*


  The answer perhaps is not as simple, as some “forward thinking Indian” would like to think. 

  Some “forward thinking Indians” are having sleepless nights, that if any reserved category qualifies in general quota he still “has to wear” a mark of humiliation, “his whole life”. Irony is that, they are the ones who are first making such derogatory, stereotypical comments, then pretending to feel sorry for their humiliation, and then using this as an argument against reservation. 

  Be casteist to remove casteism. Hypocrisy has a new friend.


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## toofan (Jul 16, 2009)

Whats the crap written above?

Now please write this in simple English. 

And most never read such lengthy posts. I too among them.


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## karnivore (Jul 16, 2009)

toofan said:


> Whats the crap written above?


Its not meant for you. Run along now.



> And most never read such lengthy posts. I too among them.


It is also not for ones with attention span of a bug. Shooooo now.


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## toofan (Jul 16, 2009)

Have you ever read that again. You too would have not understood what you have written. LOL


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## rhitwick (Jul 16, 2009)

toofan said:


> Have you ever read that again. You too would have not understood what you have written. LOL


Please get lost. This is not for kids.


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## vamsi_krishna (Jul 16, 2009)

Actually, he could cut the matter pretty strait forward in few sentences. But he keeps on typing.. and typing.. and typing..

I think he is using a voice recognition system and dictating the computer.


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## karnivore (Jul 16, 2009)

vamsikrishna919 said:


> Actually, he could cut the matter pretty strait forward in few sentences. But he keeps on typing.. and typing.. and typing..
> 
> I think he is using a voice recognition system and dictating the computer.



Yes I could, but the issue at hand is not as simple as it looks. Pages after pages are written on this issue only, not for nothing. 

If something is taxing on your brain, the best remedy is to stay away from it.


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## vamsi_krishna (Jul 16, 2009)

^ niaaaaaaaaa


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## toofan (Jul 17, 2009)

@ Karnivore You are correct. I should not strain my mind.

But one thing you have to accept that by this way you will always fail to express your feeling to the common persons.


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## rhitwick (Jul 18, 2009)

@karni, I was thinking. We are in favor of providing reservation. We are expecting that at least its helping certain people. But does it really eliminates castesim?

Its a mindset of certain people. However facility or power u provide to some bunch of concerned people the others are not going to forget their original root. Its like once an untouchable, always an untouchable. 

I've seen some places, a rich guy, well educated hesitates to "pranam" by touching some brahmins feet. They say, he may not like/accept it. 
The other day, I was reading in a newspaper editorial, a guy provided seat to a certain old woman in a crowded bus. While in conversation the woman comes to know about his caste, she gets up and gets down the next stop, saying she had to take a bath. 
Now how do we tackle this kinda situation. No reservation can help this. Rather providing reservation only keeps the wound open. Both the castes (High and low) always remembers the border line; and now-a-days HCs are having more resons to hate the SCs, OBCs (the other posts in this thread only proves that). Keeping the reservation alive only forces the next-gen not to forget the crack-in-the-wall.

Can't there be any solution which does away with reservation system? Reservation is working fine but why no movement to abolish it slowly?


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## Liverpool_fan (Jul 18, 2009)

toofan said:


> Have you ever read that again. You too would have not understood what you have written. LOL



Naah. He rehashes his points again and again and again. If you read two of his posts, you'll find nothing new in other posts.


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## karnivore (Jul 18, 2009)

rhitwick said:


> @karni, I was thinking. We are in favor of providing reservation. We are expecting that at least its helping certain people. But does it really eliminates castesim?


  Well, the answer is very complicated. The question really is, are we implementing it properly. In spite of all my pro-reservation stance, I will be the first one to admit that we are not. 

  To give a direct answer to your question, even running the risk of oversimplifying, I will say, partly YES, but largely NO. It is increasing multiculturism in our society, which is its primary goal, but at the same time, it is creating a misguided and misplaced resentment among the higher castes.


> Its a mindset of certain people. However facility or power u provide to some bunch of concerned people the others are not going to forget their original root. Its like once an untouchable, always an untouchable.


  Correct. In fact, converting into new religion isn’t helping either. 



> I've seen some places, a rich guy, well educated hesitates to "pranam" by touching some brahmins feet. They say, he may not like/accept it.
> 
> The other day, I was reading in a newspaper editorial, a guy provided seat to a certain old woman in a crowded bus. While in conversation the woman comes to know about his caste, she gets up and gets down the next stop, saying she had to take a bath.


  I am aware of such incidences. Sad but true. 

  Btw, are you referring to _Anandabazar_ ? I seem to have read one incident of taking bath after being offered seat on a bus, although it was probably a muslim gentleman, who was involved.



> Now how do we tackle this kinda situation. No reservation can help this. Rather providing reservation only keeps the wound open. Both the castes (High and low) always remembers the border line; and now-a-days HCs are having more resons to hate the SCs, OBCs (the other posts in this thread only proves that). Keeping the reservation alive only forces the next-gen not to forget the crack-in-the-wall.
> 
> Can't there be any solution which does away with reservation system? Reservation is working fine but why no movement to abolish it slowly?


  I agree with you on almost every point. Frankly, I am myself looking for the answer. On one hand we have a huge section of the population who really really need this reservation. Not allowing them reservation would be a crime. On the other hand, we have this ever increasing resentment among the higher caste. How do we balance both? The right question is, do we really need to balance them at all? Why would a small portion of the population be pampered at the cost of the majority?

  India doesn’t have unlimited resource. No country does. But our demand for resources far outshoots the supply side. With limited resources, we just have to ration, and there is no other solution. Someone will be happy with his share while another will not be. We can however debate extensively on the manner of rationing, but the question of rationing is itself outside the scope of any debate. It is a given.


  For me, frankly, the whines and complaints of the HCs don’t matter much. What bothers me is, politicization of the issue of reservation, an inevitable, but regrettable fall out, and the slow pace at which the scheme is working. If we need to change the system of reservation, we have to change for these reasons, not because some HCs are whining. I also agree that this system can’t go on for ever. 

  Regardless of the my rant above, I agree, that the backward community is perpetually caught between the devil and deep sea. I believe, that media will have to take a much more constructive and pro-active part in increasing the awareness of the youth.

  For example, when the students at AIIMS were agitating, last year, the entire media focused on their antics. No one bothered to showcase their hypocrisy by highlighting that those very AIIMS students enjoyed an in-house reservation that insulated them from competition from outside. At one time, some students were using brooms to clean the streets, implying, that if reservation is increased, they will be left with nothing but sweeping streets. No one reminded that group of students, how derogatory that symbolism was.

  I am asking the same question, just like you. How do we change the psyche of the supposedly “forward thinking Indians”(sic)?


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## karnivore (Jul 18, 2009)

Liverpool_fan said:


> Naah. He rehashes his points again and again and again. If you read two of his posts, you'll find nothing new in other posts.


Correct Mr Smarty Pants. If you ask me a thousand times, the answer for two plus two, for a thousand times, it will be four.

Somebody finally woke up.


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## rhitwick (Jul 18, 2009)

karnivore said:


> Btw, are you referring to _Anandabazar_ ? I seem to have read one incident of taking bath after being offered seat on a bus, although it was probably a muslim gentleman, who was involved.


Yes. It was that newspaper. But, I could only find one such "documented" incident. But I myself have seen such things happening. 

I'm ashamed to admit but in my home too it happens. Certain woman does chores for us. My grandma always stays back until she is given her food, then she goes for a bath. My mom n dad r too busy to look into such things and I was always a rebellion at home. U know, I've seen hoses where kids r taught how to behave with such lower caste people! 

People posting here got the light of education. WE know what is good and what is bad. But, think about those places where going to school is a luxury. There even the SCs, OBCs etc accepts treatment to them. Even they have developed a mindset that they should not claim same status as SCs. 

Now, can u change their viewpoint just providing a lecture on castesim? Let me tell u which kind of replies u'll get to hear even from the people we are talking for. "a few drops of english has made him mad" , "these city dwellers think anything is possible", "how can we do away with our rituals, practice in one day?"

The thing is that, even for them its now a "comfort zone". A few of them now so used to enjoying the benefits (or manupulating the facilities given to them) that they wouldn't want an equal right.

To change the situation we have to change our approach in such a way that doesn't scare them or make them anxious about their future.

I, with my limited view can only think about one solution, i.e *free(Govt. would bear ALL expenditure)  and mandatory (if not implemented then punishable/fine*) *education till class XII*. 

U can't change anything if the revolt doesn't come from within.


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## hpotter606 (Jul 18, 2009)

I had a paper yesterday and now one is on 20th. So i took a casual look on the posts. 

I will have to say i agree with rhitwick on many points especially on that the education till 12th should be free. That way people of open catagory wont feel such resentment that they feel due to unequal treatment (do they deserve to be treated unfairly is another issue).


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## Liverpool_fan (Jul 18, 2009)

rhitwick said:


> Yes. It was that newspaper. But, I could only find
> I, with my limited view can only think about one solution, i.e *free(Govt. would bear ALL expenditure)  and mandatory (if not implemented then punishable/fine*) *education till class XII*.


I'll agree to that. Plus Free Forms for applying to Colleges. Free Training, and all the facilities possible particularly Economic help.
But remove those seats reserved for them. 
Give them the platform to go to that level (of education). Don't give them the level itself without raising the platform itself.


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## rhitwick (Jul 18, 2009)

Liverpool_fan said:


> I'll agree to that. Plus Free Forms for applying to Colleges. Free Training, and all the facilities possible particularly Economic help.


When I say free education, it means free. Ur text books to exercise books, pens pencils etc all expenditure should be provided by Govt. As someone already told, if they can spend so much on army and war why not a few chunks in education.



> But remove those seats reserved for them.


See thats the reason I told "mandatory education". If u make it a rule that u should attend school till class XII, then no need to put put reservation for schools. SCHOOLS HAVE TO HAVE SEATS TO ACCOMMODATE PUPIL. Being mandatory would ensure one thing also that, u can complain if denied education. And ur parents would be liable to answer to Govt. if they are not sending you to school.



> Give them the platform to go to that level (of education). Don't give them the level itself without raising the platform itself.


Now, it can be a matter of discussion if only education can help them achieve it or you need to make them financially able.


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## Liverpool_fan (Jul 18, 2009)

rhitwick said:


> When I say free education, it means free. Ur text books to exercise books, pens pencils etc all expenditure should be provided by Govt. As someone already told, if they can spend so much on army and war why not a few chunks in education.


Exactly. 



> See thats the reason I told "mandatory education". If u make it a rule that u should attend school till class XII, then no need to put put reservation for schools. SCHOOLS HAVE TO HAVE SEATS TO ACCOMMODATE PUPIL. Being mandatory would ensure one thing also that, u can complain if denied education. And ur parents would be liable to answer to Govt. if they are not sending you to school.


Exactly. Every child irrespective of caste, creed or religion HAS TO BE accomodated in school for education. Making mandatory is absolutely essential.



> Now, it can be a matter of discussion if only education can help them achieve it or you need to make them financially able.


Well facilities in other words. If they are academic, give them discounted/free + interest free loans for higher education (based on socio-economic status of course). If they want to pursue Business encourage it by giving loans, reducing taxes in initial phase, etc.
In other words, *give them the facilities which they are being deprived due to social discrimination and economic status.*
With that they will be actually be able to compete against umm...non-deprived sections of the society.

What the Government is currently doing is just giving them the "Fish" but not teaching them "How To Fish". I hpe you get my point.


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## karnivore (Jul 18, 2009)

rhitwick said:


> …*free(Govt. would bear ALL expenditure)*…


  A scheme called Sarva Siksha Abhiyan (SSA) exists, which provides free education to kids, till the age of 14. This includes, free books, copies, pencils and even meals. The govt. run schools are also free, with mid day meals. Although, probably, free books etc are not supplied. (I am not sure of that part)


> …*mandatory (if not implemented then punishable/fine*)…


  This will not solve any problem. If education is made mandatory, which in any case has been made via inclusion of education as “fundamental right” (if you would want to call your “fundamental right” mandatory), it will apply to an individual only and not to a school. The school shall still reserve the right to deny admission to a particular kid, if not for anything, then for capacity constraint. Also, since, demand far exceeds capacity, admission can’t be made mandatory. Let me explain by a stylized example.

  Suppose within a community, there are 100 schools each with a capacity of 20 seats. Suppose, in any given year, there are 5000 kids who are eligible for admission. Suppose further, that this community is geographically restricted and secluded – no one can go out or come inside the community. Thus for 5000 kids, we have just 2000 seats. It means, 3000 kids can’t be admitted to school, in any given year. Mandatory admission will simply not work here – because of capacity constraints. In this case, however, education is also denied to the 3000 kids, in that given year. Now consider a single student, named X within that group of 5000 kids. If X is denied admission in 1 school, because of capacity constraint, he is not denied education, because with respect to him, there are 99 more schools to offer education. Therefore, unless he has been denied admission in all the schools, he can’t claim, that he has been denied education.

  Now imagine, if the community is not geographically restricted and secluded and is open like in a country. X’s problem increases by many orders of magnitude. Unless X has covered the entire length and breadth of the country, and has been denied admission in every single school, he can’t claim he has been denied education. This, as you realize, is absurd.

  Mandatory education will therefore work where, capacity = demand, or capacity > demand, but never where demand > capacity.

  Even if we set this aside, mandatory primary education still can’t solve the problem of disproportionate representation of backward community in higher education.


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## rhitwick (Jul 19, 2009)

> This will not solve any problem. If education is made mandatory, which in any case has been made via inclusion of education as “fundamental right” (if you would want to call your “fundamental right” mandatory), it will apply to an individual only and not to a school. The school shall still reserve the right to deny admission to a particular kid, if not for anything, then for capacity constraint. Also, since, demand far exceeds capacity, admission can’t be made mandatory. Let me explain by a stylized example.
> 
> Suppose within a community, there are 100 schools each with a capacity of 20 seats. Suppose, in any given year, there are 5000 kids who are eligible for admission. Suppose further, that this community is geographically restricted and secluded – no one can go out or come inside the community. Thus for 5000 kids, we have just 2000 seats. It means, 3000 kids can’t be admitted to school, in any given year. Mandatory admission will simply not work here – because of capacity constraints. In this case, however, education is also denied to the 3000 kids, in that given year. Now consider a single student, named X within that group of 5000 kids. If X is denied admission in 1 school, because of capacity constraint, he is not denied education, because with respect to him, there are 99 more schools to offer education. Therefore, unless he has been denied admission in all the schools, he can’t claim, that he has been denied education.



Your example is accepted. I took time to understand what I told earlier and found it impossible. Then, I realized that the problem you mentioned would only arise if the rule is implemented tomorrow. Means, without any survey, without evaluating the constraints. It would be like u get up in the morning and found that a new rule is implemented.

No, I'm not talking about that way. The problem statement of u requires some lengthy reply.

Here I begin:-

To implement that rule U first need to prepare a format for education.
1> Present avg. students in a school.
2> Ideal Student to teacher ratio.
3> As being a mandatory till XII, u need to reformat the syllabus to put things that are unavoidable in that duration.

Then
1> I propose a survey of present no. schools in a state. Divide them with district wise.
2> Get a no. eligible kids in that area.
3> Tally the student to school ratio.
4> Point out places with more school and less school and sort out schools having more attention than others.
5> Where there are less schools (1-2 schools per 3 villages), take opinion from local people if they would send their kids to most near-by school if its available. (This is required as some people would go by reputation rather communication problems). If 60% positive reply. Chalk out a plan for making a school having class I to X.
6> Schools where more students are admitted. Increase sections, i.e. if class V is now having 3 sections (V-A, V-B, and V-C of capacity 40 each) make two or three more (depending upon demand, again talk to school teachers). Improve infrastructure of that school to accommodate such huge no. of pupil. (ur question would be teachers? What about, now huge demand in "Para-Teachers", a few basic trg. schools are closed. Re-open them, train more, create more. MORE JOB opportunity)
7> For class XI to XII increase sections in existing schools or on demand it can be done in new schools too (mentioned in point 5)


Being a district wise activity it would be easier to track.



How did u like my plan?? 



Another thing I want to tell u that, in many threads u told u don't care what HCs think or cry about facilities given to SCs, LCs. You are not gonna pay any heed to them. They should suffer for what they had done earlier. This mindset is very dangerous.
It would create another problem. Suppose in near future getting so much pampered the SCs etc. switch role with HCs, i.e. now they are in power, they take decisions etc. and starts the same behavior to the HCs. Then an Ambedkar would again be wanted to ask equal right for the neglected ones. Its like revisiting the history with only diff. characters.
I can only compare the situation with the quarrel of a couple. It happens that for some reason the gal is very angry to her boyfriend. She is not even talking, listening to his prayers etc. Now the boy is trying very hard to clam her down. He does this so long that after a time he gets frustrated and becomes angry to his GF. Now the gal realizes her fault that for such a petty matter they were fighting and she had done wrong by ignoring him for such long time. Now its her turn to pacify her BF. She does everything to pacify him but now the BF reciprocates the same behavior to her. At last the gal gets angry again its now the boy's turn to pacify her.
R u getting me? its like switching roles only, but the main problem remains.


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## karnivore (Jul 20, 2009)

rhitwick said:


> Your example is accepted. I took time to understand what I told earlier and found it impossible. Then, I realized that the problem you mentioned would only arise if the rule is implemented tomorrow. Means, without any survey, without evaluating the constraints. It would be like u get up in the morning and found that a new rule is implemented.


Thanks for reading the message in the bottle and not unnecessarily arguing if the bottle should be green or yellow.



> No, I'm not talking about that way. The problem statement of u requires some lengthy reply.
> 
> Here I begin:-
> 
> ...


    Your suggestion is essentially, that of capacity expansion. I have no bones to pick with the idea of capacity expansion. Regardless of whether it can put an end to the reservation system, we desperately need to increase our educational infrastructure. There isn’t nearly enough to meet the demands of ever increasing population. There can’t be any second thought on this. Additionally, we need to increase the quality of education at primary level, as well. 

  But the thing is, we are not debating how to remove reservation, eventually, in the long run. We are debating, if we need reservation right at this point of time. Capacity increase is not going to happen overnight, or in one or two years or even a decade or two. Given the massive investment required, given the constraints in resource allocation, given the red tape, given the corruption, it is a long drawn process.

  The question then is, what do we do between “now” and “then”. Capacity increase, will probably remove the need for any reservation, because, theoretically, if there is no capacity constraint, there is no need for rationing (assuming that social disparities follow the same rule as in economic theories). But how do we handle the social discrimination/ backwardness that would continue to exist, till we achieve adequate capacity, if at all we can achieve that. This argument is therefore a good and valid in determining, “how long should we have reservation”, but not for “if reservation is needed NOW”.




> Another thing I want to tell u that, in many threads u told u don't care what HCs think or cry about facilities given to SCs, LCs. You are not gonna pay any heed to them. They should suffer for what they had done earlier. This mindset is very dangerous.


   Well, it is a matter of priority. What I meant was that, the plight of the lower caste is, in my book, the priority, not the resentment of the higher caste. If you browse through this forum, you will see that the stance against reservation arises from ignorance and half-baked ideas (not one member could provide me any data to support their arguments. Not one.) Do you really expect me to their resentment any seriously.




> It would create another problem. Suppose in near future getting so much pampered the SCs etc. switch role with HCs, i.e. now they are in power, they take decisions etc. and starts the same behavior to the HCs. Then an Ambedkar would again be wanted to ask equal right for the neglected ones. Its like revisiting the history with only diff. characters.
> I can only compare the situation with the quarrel of a couple. It happens that for some reason the gal is very angry to her boyfriend. She is not even talking, listening to his prayers etc. Now the boy is trying very hard to clam her down. He does this so long that after a time he gets frustrated and becomes angry to his GF. Now the gal realizes her fault that for such a petty matter they were fighting and she had done wrong by ignoring him for such long time. Now its her turn to pacify her BF. She does everything to pacify him but now the BF reciprocates the same behavior to her. At last the gal gets angry again its now the boy's turn to pacify her.
> R u getting me? its like switching roles only, but the main problem remains.


   As with reverse discrimination – it is actually a bogey that is raised by these ignorant kids. If you actually read a few sociologists, even the pro ones, you will see, that the biggest criticism against this mechanism of reservation, is the lack of pace. It is argued that since, in 60 years, it couldn’t even come close to being half as effective as it was believed to be, we need to scrap this system and have a new system of reservation in place. 

  It is funny, when the sociologists are concerned that this system is not fast enough, we have bunch of kids, hopping around as if reverse discrimination is just round the corner. 

  Come on *rhitwick*, of all the members, how could you fall for this BS. Et tu Brutus.


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## rhitwick (Jul 20, 2009)

karnivore said:


> Thanks for reading the message in the bottle and not unnecessarily arguing if the bottle should be green or yellow.


I don't do that. 
I'm right till I'm "proven" wrong. You give me enough logic with proof that my ideology is flawed, I would accept u happily



> Your suggestion is essentially, that of capacity expansion. I have no bones to pick with the idea of capacity expansion. Regardless of whether it can put an end to the reservation system, we desperately need to increase our educational infrastructure. There isn’t nearly enough to meet the demands of ever increasing population. There can’t be any second thought on this. Additionally, we need to increase the quality of education at primary level, as well.
> 
> But the thing is, we are not debating how to remove reservation, eventually, in the long run. We are debating, if we need reservation right at this point of time. Capacity increase is not going to happen overnight, or in one or two years or even a decade or two. Given the massive investment required, given the constraints in resource allocation, given the red tape, given the corruption, it is a long drawn process.
> 
> ...


See, with my limited vision and lack of experience I could only thought of this. I though this is how it should at least be approached.

About debate, if we are here only for the sake of debating and having fun, well, then I was too much involved and took it too seriously.

On other thought, my approach to solve a problem is different. If there is a pain I just don't recommend a painkiller, I try to go to the root and remove the cause.
So, I tried to foresee if reservation is removed tomorrow what problems would occur. And that too from all possible sides.
1> What would happen to the really needy people?
2> How the people who are "enjoying" (pun intended) it would react?
3> If it needs to be removed, what should we do to full fill the vacant?
4> What should be our approach? etc.

That I call a back-up plan ready for every place to be affected if reservation is removed. 
Yes and obviously it would take time. Why not? If we could wait till 70 years with very little progress why not another 5-6 years. Till then let it stay as it is. 



> As with reverse discrimination – it is actually a bogey that is raised by these ignorant kids. If you actually read a few sociologists, even the pro ones, you will see, that the biggest criticism against this mechanism of reservation, is the lack of pace. It is argued that since, in 60 years, it couldn’t even come close to being half as effective as it was believed to be, we need to scrap this system and have a new system of reservation in place.
> 
> It is funny, when the sociologists are concerned that this system is not fast enough, we have bunch of kids, hopping around as if reverse discrimination is just round the corner.
> 
> Come on *rhitwick*, of all the members, how could you fall for this BS. Et tu Brutus.


See, neither anyone told me this nor I'm influenced by any article or any post. I think I'm first one here to talk about reverse discrimination (may be I'm not). Its just I thought that this may come in future if we continue doing this.
May be not now but who can say in next 70yrs, it won't. Can u guarantee?

See its on us. Our solutions come depending how we think about it. U think u can take a quick decision at the 11th hour but I can't, I have to have a plan or I crash.


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## karnivore (Jul 20, 2009)

rhitwick said:


> See, with my limited vision and lack of experience I could only thought of this. I though this is how it should at least be approached.


  I think, in this thread, you are the only person who have actually tried to come up with a solution – which was not too far off the mark either. That is commendable.*i180.photobucket.com/albums/x31/trash609/smilie/image28.gif


> On other thought, my approach to solve a problem is different. If there is a pain I just don't recommend a painkiller, I try to go to the root and remove the cause.
> So, I tried to foresee if reservation is removed tomorrow what problems would occur. And that too from all possible sides.
> 1> What would happen to the really needy people?
> 2> How the people who are "enjoying" (pun intended) it would react?
> ...


  I did not disagree with you in principle.



> Yes and obviously it would take time. Why not? If we could wait till 70 years with very little progress why not another 5-6 years. *Till then let it stay as it is*.


  The part emphasized, is what I am saying. We can’t remove it, just yet. Btw, “5-6 years” is way too optimistic estimate. Anyway, point taken.


> See, neither anyone told me this nor I'm influenced by any article or any post. I think I'm first one here to talk about reverse discrimination (may be I'm not). Its just I thought that this may come in future if we continue doing this.
> May be not now but who can say in next 70yrs, it won't. *Can u guarantee*?


  If the same rate continues, I can guarantee,  that in next 100 yrs we will not be seeing any “reverse discrimination”. For example, in the IAS cadre, it took us 62 damn years to raise the proportion of backward class, from almost 0 to roughly over 5%. About 1% or so are from other religions and a whopping 94% are high caste.  


> See its on us. Our solutions come depending how we think about it. *U think u can take a quick decision at the 11th hour* but I can't, I have to have a plan or I crash.


  I don’t think, I ever made any insinuation to that effect. In fact I am a 6th hour man, although the clock on my wrist tells me it is 5 min past midnight.*i180.photobucket.com/albums/x31/trash609/smilie/image05-1.gif


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## rhitwick (Jul 21, 2009)

Dude we were talking about "Right to education"...now check this out...

A few days back Education minister announced of a new bill about free education for 6-14yrs children. In today's paper it came that the bill is talking for "Free and compulsory" education.
"Geniuses think alike", what say?  

But the sad thing is that, they will be introducing to quota even to this, which would IMO make this also useless. 



> The Right of Children to Free and Compulsory Education Bill, 2008—promising free and compulsory education to children in the 6-14 age group





> Sibal explained that the concept of neighbourhood schools would be defined by states. He also allayed fears about financing of the scheme. Sibal said the National University of Educational Planning and Administration is working on it and the 13th Finance Commission has been told about the fund requirement. He said the Centre-state ratio would be decided later. He also said the norm for 25% quota would be fixed by states. D Raja and JD Seelam (Congress) wanted the minister to spell out the SC/ST/OBC reservation. But the bill defines disadvantaged group as those belonging to SC/ST/socially and educationally backward class and those whose parents earn less than the minimum government limit.



Source: TOI, 21st July, 2009. Mumbai edition, page 11.
Article name: With only 54 MPs, RS clears right to edu bill
ePaper *link*


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## karnivore (Jul 21, 2009)

rhitwick said:


> "Geniuses think alike", what say?


*i180.photobucket.com/albums/x31/trash609/me-thumbs-up.png



> But the sad thing is that, they will be introducing to quota even to this, which would IMO make this also useless.


Mandatory education is not the solution to the problem that reservation seeks to address. I have already explained.


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## spikygv (Sep 21, 2009)

Reservation was never meant to stay this long. It should have been removed long back.

The reservation system is being misused in india. Reservation should be given to the economically weaker groups. Not based on caste. 

Look at the number of people entering universities through reservation even though they dont need it. They have led a comfortable life with all the education that modern cities bring. They are no different from other competitors but take precedence just because long ago they belonged to a backward community. 

On the other hand , people from villages neither have the opportunities nor the finances necessary to pursue their dreams.
They dont reap any benefits from reservation even though they deserve it.

People hate SC/ST or groups of persons misusing the reservation system and usurping opportunities of the common public ( which some of u have called HC - high caste ? ).


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## sijugk (Sep 21, 2009)

Whats more!!!!   now they are going to start reservation for women also. They are also telling all are equal but some should enjoy the fruits of reservation,free education etc....

It is discrimination!!!!


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## Ecko (Nov 3, 2009)

IMO people should get rid of there last names  as in IDEA advertisement that shows numbers instead of names  and dere will be no Q-Factor
Everything on merit basis 
Else believe it its practically impossible..........!!!


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## prashanthnbhat (Nov 5, 2009)

I think ours is the only country where people fight to stay backward.

We imagine a caste free society all day long, I wonder how this is possible if the govt. itself keeps the practice of identifying people based on caste alive...


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## n00buddy (Dec 18, 2009)

I don't caste or religion based reservation.
There should be 25% reservation based on economic condition no matter if you are a brahmin or schedule caste.
I don't understand why can't a brahmin who is below poverty line(there are many-many) can get a reservation but an IAS who is SC/ST can get it .
This way the economically poor will never be uplifted and India will not grow as it should, as talent will not get an opportunity and brain-drain will occur .


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## The Conqueror (Feb 25, 2010)

I Believe that Reservation system creates more in-equalities..Now more and more social,political communities are demanding reservations everywhere. Is this fair ? Reservation system is simply the root cause why we are not developing as fast as we should.


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## techmaniack (Feb 25, 2010)

hmmm for those who are telling yes, just have a look at the cutoffs for most of the prestigious colleges of our nation. The only thing that happens is that Quality students are unable to get a Quality degree! As you all might be reading the news papers you must have often come across the news that bunch of students belonging to SC and ST are kicked off fromm the IIT's and NIT's as they are unable to clear even the first year!(i don't know that how many of you know that extra one year remedial PCM course is held for the SC ST guys in the IITS!)
i am not against reservation but i am against resetrvation in education, i scored 173 in MHCET and took CS in VIT but i can't tell you how much i get disturbed when i see guys who are going to be with me for the next 3 years, i mean some of them have even scored below 120!!! and thats not the only reason i hate them, their attitude is the major thing. They absolutely do not have something which we call as engineering ethics, they just come to college because they feel that it is their right (it is another thing that they have to pay only 10% of what we pay + they get hell lot of scholarships + Library advantages and what not).

You might think that i am a proud guy or something but what i feel is that Even they should feel proud, Thats all!!!!


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## metalfan (Mar 20, 2010)

now they give reservation to SC/ST's after some years brhamins and kshtriya will vanish and so remaining of higher castes will be displayed in zoo ............yupeeeee OR as said uppercaste(poor people like me)....will be given reservation when the backward castes will rise and then history will repeat and chain will roll again.........................INDIA will always work to heal its past never is or will do 4 the future


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## chooza (Mar 24, 2010)

^^ u r right


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## aCe: dAvE (Mar 25, 2010)

Reservations is REALLY VERY necessary. Its only the rich and well-to-do family who disagrees these days.
The fact is: Without Reservations, India might not have even existed in the first place. Can an Indian simply take a VISA and reach Australia or any other Foreign institutes? NO! What if they get kicked out "No Reservations"?
And I'm quite sure that India will not be able to recover once it gets affected by the non-reservations status!


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## rhitwick (Mar 25, 2010)

aCe: dAvE said:


> Reservations is REALLY VERY necessary. Its only the rich and well-to-do family who disagrees these days.
> The fact is: Without Reservations, India might not have even existed in the first place. Can an Indian simply take a VISA and reach Australia or any other Foreign institutes? NO! What if they get kicked out "No Reservations"?
> And I'm quite sure that India will not be able to recover once it gets affected by the non-reservations status!



Hmmm, u r pretty much sure of everything...


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## techmaniack (Mar 30, 2010)

^
^ well even we say that rreservation should be there but it should be strictly on Financial basis, not on the basis of caste or creed! Today we have the SC/ST working in all major posts of the country including IAS, IPS and IFS and you see their children enjoy the benefit of reservation + 90% concession in fees, but a Brahmin guy who does a part time job to help his family has to take Loans to continue his studies!!! 
now how fair is that???


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## way2jatin (Apr 5, 2010)

My question for Gvt that they say that SC/ST & OBC  DONT get a good atmosphere to study but i think that general quota  have this problem 
This means that better to be a minority
Plz comment on this


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## metalfan (Apr 6, 2010)

dont fight best thing to do is make fake reservation documents from ur hometown .............if everyone will be reserved then govt will understand..........................besides i consider that if they r given quota then we should have freedom of speech i.e. no prosecution for calling dalits as dalits do u all get my point its a fair deal


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## abhijangda (Apr 10, 2010)

either reservation should be abolished or reserved seats must be decreased. Many of the reserved seats in IIT's remains empty. Many good and deserving students are not able to get their favourite college and instead those undeserving one's get those good colleges.
If not abolished, reserved seats should be decreased.


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## celldweller1591 (Apr 10, 2010)

If reservation continues like that, then there is no use of giving prestigious exams as the IIT-JEE and AIEEE. Incompetent people get selected and a deserving person is left behind. Its all vote bank game . But its a fact that this discussion is going to have no effect on the situation . 
"If You dont like a rule, Follow it , reach the top and change the rule  !!! "


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## topgear (Apr 10, 2010)

^^



> "If You dont like a rule, Follow it , reach the top and change the rule !!! "



Well said


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## celldweller1591 (Apr 10, 2010)

thanks . Read it somwhere long ago.


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## hansraj (Apr 24, 2010)

Lets imagine it like this:

I have been told to set up a new city in the remote island where its only jungle and nothing else(i.e. North Sentinal of Andamans....lol). Basically I have to start from scratch. Now i have some gr8 powers so with the flick of a wand I can create and set up anything for the intial few days till the time the city is inaugrated!! So what do I do- i start placing all segments of society in that city. A Mayor, a local municipal body with few officers and more working class(of course not all be officers), for law enforcing 1-2 IPS Officers and few hundred island police force, 1-2 IAS officers and their team under them. Various other departments like water, electricity, immigration, shipping and so on with similar set up. Also a civil sector which shall have hundreds of masons,labourers,supervisors and few engineers. 
At the end of the day I realize that every one wants to be the mayor or an officer but no one wants to be at the bottom!!! But the harsh reality is, for a society all of them have important roles to play! Its just that only the team leader gets the recogntion and rest of them get applauded as a group. So its my responsibility to convey this point to every one so that they continue with their efforts to make this city a great and a grand city. I as a leader is responsible to make them work without any kind of enmity or hatred among them and should not bring any kind of reservation in this city. It shall be my failure if i introduce some thing of that sort.

In modern times this topmost position is taken by Politicians who hail from the labour class(majority of them). They know the aspirations of all and for the votebank they are just doing what will fetch them the maximum votes. Because the reality is "Officer" cadre(higher caste) is just handful and labour class(generally lower caste) is majority so woo them. In present day this greed has been exploited by offering reservation to the lower castes (who were the worker class of yester years) and the higher castes are blamed to bring the lack of opportunity to all. Though in reality this upper castes were as such no threat in any field except for the fact that their ancestors were of higher class in earlier society. These politicians have legally divided the society now. 

In this row, the person who was neither from the upper caste nor from the lower, is at the recieving end because he finds today that  even after having the calibre he is getting left out and the lower class "idiot" is overtaking him. This lower class "idiot" is just like a whore who wants to be proud of this cheap opportunity and feels offended when he is now addressed as dalit.

The sad reality is the bills are made by the MPs in parliament. This kind of bills abolishing reservation can never be passed in a country like India coz vote bank plays a major role in all this. The vote bank is the worst drawback of a democracy like india.

This fight for reservation is unending now coz someone will always be replacing the worker class and the then existing worker class shall be offered the opportunities.

Dr Bhimrao Ambedkar must have never thought that his name shall be misused in the present context as its done by stupid Mayawati for her petty parochial interests.


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## metalfan (May 13, 2010)

^^ OMFG have u written it or copied it (it just too long)


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## rhitwick (May 13, 2010)

hansraj said:


> At the end of the day I realize that every one wants to be the mayor or an officer but no one wants to be at the bottom!!!


This is normal human behavior. That is why we are what we are i.e. HUMAN. we ask, we want, we wish, we get or we snatch, we fight, we beg.
Why would settle for anything less? Is there any particular reason?



> But the harsh reality is, for a society all of them have important roles to play!


Its not harsh reality, its the reality. 


> Its just that only the team leader gets the recogntion and rest of them get applauded as a group. So its my responsibility to convey this point to every one so that they continue with their efforts to make this city a great and a grand city. I as a leader is responsible to make them work without any kind of enmity or hatred among them


Agreed. But one thing you are avoiding/forgetting is that, you can always give all of the demanding class an equal opportunity to come at the top level. Why not Introduce an entrance exam? Here you have to take care on the other important thing also i.e. proper resource for all.
Whoever passes gets a promotion else continues his present role, and tries again after a predefined time frame.


> and should not bring any kind of reservation in this city. It shall be my failure if i introduce some thing of that sort.


Agreed. And you should not too.


> In modern times this topmost position is taken by Politicians who hail from the labour class(majority of them).


I very much disagree here. What is your definition of labour class? How are you drawing the line of "labour class" and "officer cadre"? What is the base of your comment?



> They know the aspirations of all and for the votebank they are just doing what will fetch them the maximum votes.


Agreed. Now-a-days reservation has become an object to lure people for vote.


> Because the reality is "Officer" cadre(higher caste) is just handful


This is the most dangerous comment!!! (and not a reality)
Are you trying to say, anyone who belongs to a higher caste, by default falls in "Officer Cadre" ?!!!



> In present day this greed has been exploited by offering reservation


Agreed.


> the lower castes (who were the worker class of yester years)


What does that even mean???
I guess, you have no idea how casteism was introduced in ancient India and was in practice.
Either refer some history books or read a few previous pages of this thread.



> Though in reality this upper castes were as such no threat in any field


Yes they were.
To prove you are elite you have to show someone who is small from you.



> In this row, the person who was neither from the upper caste nor from the lower


There were never such "middle caste" or "confused caste" or "na ghar ka, na ghat ka" caste.
You always belong to some caste. The phrase "General Caste" in coined recently and used only while filling forms.



> The lower class "idiot" is overtaking him.


This is another dangerous comment.
What do u mean by lower caste idiot. 


> This lower class "idiot" is just like a whore who wants to be proud of this cheap opportunity and feels offended when he is now addressed as dalit.


How does this even explain who u are addressing as idiot?


> The sad reality is the bills are made by the MPs in parliament. This kind of bills abolishing reservation can never be passed in a country like India coz vote bank plays a major role in all this. The vote bank is the worst drawback of a democracy like india.


Sad but true. But this voting system is a drawback of any democracy. 



> This fight for reservation is unending now coz someone will always be replacing the worker class and the then existing worker class shall be offered the opportunities.


I could not get it. How is it harmful? Everyone should be given an opportunity to prove himself.



> Dr Bhimrao Ambedkar must have never thought that his name shall be misused in the present context as its done by stupid Mayawati for her petty parochial interests.


This can be a valid concern.


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## CA50 (May 13, 2010)

Reservation system is a crap. India is independent and all citizen must be equal.


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## hansraj (May 14, 2010)

rhitwick said:


> Agreed. But one thing you are avoiding/forgetting is that, you can always give all of the demanding class an equal opportunity to come at the top level. Why not introduce an entrance exam? Here you have to take care on the other important thing also i.e. Proper resource for all.
> Whoever passes gets a promotion else continues his present role, and tries again after a predefined time frame.


 This is an ideal solution but has been diluted by the politicians only. What once was a fair competition has become an arena of caste war. This discussion is about the same problem



> I very much disagree here. What is your definition of labour class? How are you drawing the line of "labour class" and "officer cadre"? What is the base of your comment?


 
Labour class (as used by me formerly)= yester years worker class of indian society which included the last two segments vaisya and shudra. 
Officer cadre of this island(as used by me  formerly)= the present set of deserving people who have made it to that position by open competition and not by any reservations



> This is the most dangerous comment!!! (and not a reality)
> are you trying to say, anyone who belongs to a higher caste, by default falls in "officer cadre" ?!!!



You have ended up comparing present officer cadre/executives to the old high caste people directly. My comparison was not that straight. I mean the kind of jobs entrusted to higher caste people at old times is somewhat like what we expect from present executive cadre today. i.e important policy decisions, judgements and behaviour. During old times the high caste people enjoyed all the grand privileges, invitations in grand functions, seeking advice on various matters(coz they were considered intellectuals), immunity from punishments and various other such privileges. Similar are the powers of present day executives in our democracy. The only difference is earlier higher caste person inherited that privieige by birth (which was unfair) and today a person has to prove his caliber by appearing in competitive exams. Now introducing reservation here will spoil everything again.



> What does that even mean???
> I guess, you have no idea how casteism was introduced in ancient india and was in practice.
> Either refer some history books or read a few previous pages of this thread.



Well I am not a student of history or for that matter Indian Caste system to know exactly how it was in reality in old times. (Present history is the gift of British rule who believed in "Writing", Indians have only written literature except for a very few like Chanakya; let me know a name of any Indian Historian. I shall know something new which i dont know yet). So what i know about indian caste system is what my elders have told me and I think most of us know that way only. I am deviating though.... I mean that the earlier Vaishya and shudra had limited roles and jobs...may be to cultivate crops, trading, serving someone(kind of slavery) and cleaning up the surroundings. But today the society has various jobs!!! So today its not possible to have that kind of classification based on the job profile..... Result... We dont have that classification also. But its the politicians who want this classification to exist coz that is the only way of their survival. This sense is so strong that they rather than discouraging it, fueled it by bringing in the reservation system. Hence the caste system which should have vanished in thin air with time as the job profile changed, these politicians are still clinging to it for their interests.



> This is another dangerous comment.
> What do u mean by lower caste idiot.
> 
> How does this even explain who u are addressing as idiot?



This idiot is that guy who is seeking reservation based on his ancestarial legacy of dalit being tagged to him. If he is capable as per the present educational norms and requirements he doesnt have to say he is a dalit or something similar. This idiot is that guy who is a non qualified lower caste but wants everything just because he is a dalit.


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## metalfan (May 15, 2010)

> I could not get it. How is it harmful? Everyone should be given an opportunity to prove himself.



He means that evrytime there is a worker class to be supressed and their future generations will get reservation


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## celldweller1591 (May 21, 2010)

if reservation continues like that ..then there will be no place for General Category. The History is itself a proof that majority of best students are from general category (IIT toppers etc)
IMO reservation should be removed from a family when its annual income goes above 2-2.2 lakhs. They should be then considered in General category as they have enough money to feed and educate their children.


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## red dragon (May 25, 2010)

Just look at our Country`s medical education system,about 90%of the newly appointed medical teachers have those precious surnames and even precious certificates,and a very few of them can write a sentence correctly,let alone teach medicine.I am a part of medical education system,and believe me it is in a horrible state.


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## gagan007 (May 26, 2010)

celldweller1591 said:


> if reservation continues like that ..then there will be no place for General Category. The History is itself a proof that majority of best students are from general category (IIT toppers etc)
> IMO reservation should be removed from a family when its annual income goes above 2-2.2 lakhs. They should be then considered in General category as they have enough money to feed and educate their children.



History has such proofs my dear friend because ST/SCs have been oppressed for many years...they were not given a fair chance to prove themselves...many generations followed this trend and they all fell back...

Supreme Court has said that the reservation is required not only for the economic but social upliftment as well...so such cut-off is not feasible...
I am not in favor of reservation...but I fully respect Supreme Court of India...



red dragon said:


> Just look at our Country`s medical education system,about 90%of the newly appointed medical teachers have those precious surnames and even precious certificates,and a very few of them can write a sentence correctly,let alone teach medicine.I am a part of medical education system,and believe me it is in a horrible state.



I do not agree...though some of them (who get reservations) may belong to the kind you are mentioning but not all. I am not in medical profession but I have four very close friends who belong to backward class and are masters in this profession...


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## red dragon (May 28, 2010)

gagan007 said:


> History has such proofs my dear friend because ST/SCs have been oppressed for many years...they were not given a fair chance to prove themselves...many generations followed this trend and they all fell back...
> 
> Supreme Court has said that the reservation is required not only for the economic but social upliftment as well...so such cut-off is not feasible...
> I am not in favor of reservation...but I fully respect Supreme Court of India...
> ...


Well you have four,I have forty ,they have master degrees alright,but they really know nothing when you compare them with specialists(MD,DM,MS ,MCh etc) from general class.It is difficult to judge one professional`s knowledge and skill  when you are not in that profession or speciality,and I am talking about medical teachers not practicing doctors.


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## gagan007 (May 28, 2010)

red dragon, I can judge people based on their knowledge about other things in life. My experience in life has taught me that. I have not fully denied your point but you know it that you are exaggerating. You are stamping all backward class students as fools which is not the case.

And why medical only, there are thousands of engineering professionals also who go on in life to build bridges/buildings which would be used by public, it runs the risk of failure too if these ppl have not studied well. But doesn't that include general category students too?There are many in general category who flunk classes, always clear paper on the edge or worse are just the kind who write down answers as it is from book but in real do not understand a word...


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## red dragon (May 28, 2010)

No man I am not exaggerating.I have seen general  good students studying real hard for months could not get into their desired speciality after scoring 65% where as a quota guy with a score of 45% got in with ease.I am not saying that they are dumb or anything,they do not work hard but somehow they get what they want only because they have  special surnames.
I was never bothered about this quota thing before(lucky ,that I got through all the entrance exams relatively easily),but for last six months or so I am teaching these young aspiring medicos and I really think it is not fair.I have seen some students who did not see the sun for 3 months together before the PG entrance.Still some of them failed to make the cut.It breaks my heart.
They should remove this thing atleast from the speciality and super speciality level.I guess this applies to engineering also.


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## gagan007 (May 28, 2010)

red dragon said:


> I was never bothered about this quota thing before(lucky ,that I got through all the entrance exams relatively easily),but for last six months or so I am teaching these young aspiring medicos and I really think it is not fair.I have seen some students who did not see the sun for 3 months together before the PG entrance.Still some of them failed to make the cut.It breaks my heart.
> They should remove this thing atleast from the speciality and super speciality level.I guess this applies to engineering also.



got your point now...that is sad really...


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## abhijangda (May 28, 2010)

ok let me tell u whats written in JEE-2010 brochure.


> In case all the reserved seats of SC/ST/PD candidates are not filled, a limited number of candidates are admitted to a Preparatory Course of one-year duration on the basis of a further relaxation. This course attempts to prepare the students in Chemistry, Mathematics and Physics. On successful completion of the course, the students will be offered a direct admission to the undergraduate programmes in July 2011, against the unfilled reserved seats of JEE-2010.


so see, what they do. they didn't study seriously and get everything. Those who are in general and who study hard, loose their deserving seats to these non-deserving students. i belongs to backward caste but in creamy layer, so can't get the reservation. one of my frnd, who didn't study regularly and said i have reservation, why not use it. even his both parents have good salary. this is the mindset of people, they didn't study too much and use their privilige of reservation to get what they don't deserve. This have put up a great pressure on general students. reservation system is killing our education system.!!! and we are facing it.


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## gagan007 (May 28, 2010)

abhijangda said:


> i belongs to backward caste but in non-creamy layer, so can't get the reservation.



sorry...don't quite get this point...if you are BC and in non-creamy layer, who could deny you your reserved seats if you are eligible...?




abhijangda said:


> this is the mindset of people, they didn't study too much and use their privilige of reservation to get what they don't deserve.



mindset of people!!! every person belonging to BC knows that they do not have unlimited seats reserved for them...they also have to fight among themselves... 

Mindsets belong to people actually (generally speaking)...not to any caste.


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## metalfan (May 29, 2010)

IF the Govt. wants to give them reservation let them stay in their homes and give them wages . Atleast people will be saved from getting killed by Doctors with half info. (My own watchmen died due to wrong medications by a safdarjung hospital's doctor and guess what he had that special caste)


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## Raghav Talwar (May 30, 2010)

metalfan said:


> Atleast people will be saved from getting killed by Doctors with half info. (My own watchmen died due to wrong medications by a safdarjung hospital's doctor and guess what he had that special caste)



Dude!
I couldn't agree more. I've seen people dying in government hospitals.

I think government should help the poor strata of society - provide more scolarships etc.
I mean, I'm in Panjab University. Studied hard to get to this place. Two of my classmates have taken admission in the reserved category. One's dad is a rich lawyer and the other's is a multi-millionaire industrialist.

Do these guys really need reservations?


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