# Beijing Olympics: One tiny fake & one fiery fake



## karnivore (Aug 15, 2008)

The tiny fake:


> ....
> 
> At the last moment a member of the Chinese politburo who was watching a    rehearsal pronounced that the winner, a girl called Yang Peiyi, might have a    perfect voice but was unsuited to the lead role because of her buck teeth.
> 
> ...


Read more...

The fiery fake


> Beijing organizers confirmed Tuesday that some of the fireworks display featured prerecorded footage.
> 
> 
> Fireworks that burst into the shape of 29 gigantic footprints were shown trudging above the Beijing skyline to the National Stadium near the start of the ceremony.
> Though the footprint-shaped fireworks were real, some of the footage shown to television viewers around the world and on giant screens inside the "Bird's Nest" stadium featured a computer-generated three-dimensional image.


Read more...

Some people on this forum just can't get enough of China. Well....


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## eggman (Aug 15, 2008)

Shame shame...puppy shame............
Specially for the lipsync one............. Just because someone is 'more pretty', she gets the credit for singing......Must be a heartbreaker for the singer girl.!!!


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## ssk_the_gr8 (Aug 16, 2008)

the singer thing.. is too much.. just becuz some girl is beautiful shes on stage.. even though she is not a singer


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## karnivore (Aug 16, 2008)

^ Yes my friends, thats China for you.
Where,

People = Zit on a baboon's butt


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## Ecko (Aug 16, 2008)

^^ Ha Ha Ha


> People = Zit on a baboon's butt


Should've been in a movie


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## Faun (Aug 16, 2008)

bad people doin what they do at best


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## amitava82 (Aug 16, 2008)

Look around you. You will find 1000s of such examples including some from your own life. Some people are just too jealous.


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## kumarmohit (Aug 16, 2008)

So what more did you expect from teh Chinese. Never heard of the fake Chinese phone and all!


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## karnivore (Aug 16, 2008)

amitava82 said:


> Look around you. You will find 1000s of such examples including some from *your own life*.


Aha...so two wrongs do make a right. And they told me otherwise. Damn them. BTW, confusing "your own life" with others ?



amitava82 said:


> Some people are just too jealous.


Yes indeed. Since Planet Earth has run out of countries, China has become something to be jealous of.

Lets see what we should be jeolous of:

No democracy- CHECK
No freedom of speech - CHECK
No freedom of movement - CHECK
No free press - CHECK 
Heavily censored Internet - CHECK
Kill citizens and then charge their family for the bullets - CHECK
Displace citizens so rich can have some RnR - CHECK

Man I am turning GREEN.


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## IronManForever (Aug 16, 2008)

Well;

Largest Growth Rate - CHECK
Largest Military - CHECK
Population Control - CHECK
Far Better Health Services - CHECK
Far Better Infrastructure - CHECK
3rd Country to go to Space - CHECK
Arguably The Largest Economy in Near Future - CHECK

Man Im turning GREEN as well.


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## The_Devil_Himself (Aug 16, 2008)

IronManForever said:


> Well;
> 
> Largest Growth Rate - CHECK


ALl thanks to foreign investments.,hardly any big native company like Infosys.


> Largest Military - CHECK


argg....what can I say....unnecessary expenditure in this world of nuke warfare.

only if bigger military meant better security,not anymore my friend.Kamikaze terrorists ftw! lol.


> Population Control - CHECK


Obviously not by using condoms.



> Far Better Health Services - CHECK


If anyone say that Indian health services is not competent,I would kill him right away.bleh.....you guys have no fuking Idea.




> Far Better Infrastructure - CHECK


Rome wasn't built in a day



> 3rd Country to go to Space - CHECK


Does it even matter?



> Arguably The Largest Economy in Near Future - CHECK


Or maybe not?  

who knows.


Most importantly:Govt. is for people,people are not for Govt.I bet you wouldn't like to live in China.You abuse politicians here openly,there you would be hanged.

Growth comes at a price but the people of china have had to pay dearly.



> Man Im turning GREEN as well.



You gotta respect your motherland no matter what you do,where you are and no matter how bad it is.


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## IronManForever (Aug 16, 2008)

The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> ALl thanks to foreign investments.,hardly any big native company like Infosys.


Does it matter? Why dont that many companies come and invest in India then?



			
				The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> argg....what can I say....unnecessary expenditure in this world of nuke warfare.
> 
> only if bigger military meant better security,not anymore my friend.Kamikaze terrorists ftw! lol.



I understand that larger Military doesnt necessarily imply better security. But bear in mind that India has the 2nd largest Military. If what you say is to be followed, then thers no reason to be proud that India has the 2nd largest military? We all know about the frequent bombings.. What are the security forces doing? 
Chinese forces are atleast MORE effective. Internally I mean. Externally, we dont have much wars going on isnt it?



			
				The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> Obviously not by using condoms.



Again, does it matter? Indian population is becoming more and more difficult to sustain. At this rate of growth, do you in your best senses think that India may lead? The future?



			
				The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> If anyone say that Indian health services is not competent,I would kill him right away.bleh.....you guys have no fuking Idea.



Competent? Yes but at a smaller scale. Effective and holistic? No.



			
				The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> Rome wasn't built in a day



Still, India had more time. 



			
				The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> Does it even matter?



Why not? Isnt Indian government trying to follow suit? I bet in a few years India will be doing the same.



			
				The_Devil_Himself said:
			
		

> Or maybe not?



According to present statistics, YES and YES. We of course do not know the future but folding ones arms and looking at the proceedings like a dumb, that aint gonna help.


Now Im really sorry for being so provoking, But lets face it, Its true. Human rights condition in China is bad, but thats the way Communism works. Tell me, how much good to the country has more human rights in India been? Both sides lack a lot many things..

And I APOLOGISE for hurting you al guys sentiments, but I stay in a region from where you can see it all best. I am a Nepalese and I know a bit of both, thats what fueled me to give my two cents. 

Let this be a healthy discussion, not a flame war.


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## nix (Aug 16, 2008)

^ agree 100%. 
let us not flame each other. it is something very easy to do... instead we should try to be reasonable. those


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## The_Devil_Himself (Aug 16, 2008)

IronManForever said:


> Does it matter? Why dont that many companies come and invest in India then?


party due to high taxes and infinte no. of licenses required.
Still,Our growth is sustainable whilst theirs is not by themselves.





> I understand that larger Military doesnt necessarily imply better security. But bear in mind that India has the 2nd largest Military. If what you say is to be followed, then thers no reason to be proud that India has the 2nd largest military? We all know about the frequent bombings.. What are the security forces doing?
> Chinese forces are atleast MORE effective. Internally I mean. Externally, we dont have much wars going on isnt it?


take a side dawg! you can't have both the head and the tail!

and do you think those internal bombings are done by some damn terrorist groups?Thats ignorant of you.of course this sucks even more but then again no country is perfect.






> Again, does it matter? Indian population is becoming more and more difficult to sustain. At this rate of growth, do you in your best senses think that India may lead? The future?


YES IT DOES MATTER! its not a matter of choice there.

If I want to have half a dozen kids and I can support them,then I will have them!.Not so there my friend.Its good as long its your choice,it sucks when its forced.

countries like Netherlands have a negative population growth,the govt. actually promotes and aids couples with children.

Population is never a burden,its a boon if used correctly.And I don't see many people having a lot of kids anymore,wait 20 more years and you will see a negative growth curves here too which sucks even more. 





> Competent? Yes but at a smaller scale. Effective and holistic? No.


bleh....Like I said you don't have any Idea.Indian docs and hospitals are one of the best in the world,they are overburdened but they still work efficiently.

Maybe you don't know you have like 1-2 months waitime for a freaking dentist's appointment in US,just imagine some superspeciality.And not to forget the prohibiting costs.Medical tourism ftw!





> Still, India had more time.


what can I say?60 years aren't many methink.




> According to present statistics, YES and YES. We of course do not know the future but folding ones arms and looking at the proceedings like a dumb, that aint gonna help.


Are we just folding our arms and looking like a dumb?Lols.

DUDE,this is the time,India is the place! I am at the right place at the right time!




> Now Im really sorry for being so provoking, But lets face it, Its true. *Human rights condition in China is bad, but thats the way Communism works*. Tell me, how much good to the country has more human rights in India been? Both sides lack a lot many things..


you said it my friend.for me:Humans\citizens over country anyday? who gives a damn about your skyscraoers when your citizens are not least bit happy?

maybe too much freedom have spoiled us,and we have forgot to appreciate little good things in life.Free uncensored Internet(mostly),Independent press,freedom of speech(which is so dear to anyone),RTI,etc etc.




> And I APOLOGISE for hurting you al guys sentiments, but I stay in a region from where you can see it all best. I am a Nepalese and I know a bit of both, thats what fueled me to give my two cents.


Hurting? And No my friend you don't live in a place where you see the best.I have no Idea how an average nepalese percieves India,but I have an Idea now.and remember GRASS IS ALWAYS GREENER ON THE OTHERSIDE OF THE HEDGE.


Life sucks here sometimes(or maybe all the times),but still I know its my country and like no other country no matter how much we curse and abuse it.



> Let this be a healthy discussion, not a flame war.


amen


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## Renny (Aug 16, 2008)

Lol this is turning out to be a debate,

The Chinese will go to any extent to showcase itself well even if it means suppressing its own people,

These Chinese would have been no where without the FDI USA and other countries have been poring in since 1980,

India has achieved most of its economic success and growth because of our home-grown companies,

The Chinese are preventing the Uyghurs of the Xinjiang province of even bracing their own religion(Islam) and prevent the Uyghur children and people from learning the Qu'ran and even demolished mosques.


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## nix (Aug 16, 2008)

The_Devil_Himself said:


> party due to high taxes and infinte no. of licenses required.
> Still,Our growth is sustainable whilst theirs is not by themselves.



they made their economy attractive. they made infrastructure. to say that they are not in control of their economy is incorrect. 



The_Devil_Himself said:


> take a side dawg! you can't have both the head and the tail!
> 
> and do you think those internal bombings are done by some damn terrorist groups?Thats ignorant of you.



hmm.. you can say pakistan is behind all terrorist attacks india, but what do we do about it? we dont even warn them. pakistan will not dare to sponsor terrorism in china. no country dares to mess with china, as they will not hesitate to use force. they dont care for USA either. just wait till the olympics gets over, then they will show their true colors. 



The_Devil_Himself said:


> YES IT DOES MATTER! its not a matter of choice there.
> 
> If I want to have half a dozen kids and I can support them,then I will have them!.Not so there my friend.Its good as long its your choice,it sucks when its forced.
> 
> ...



what you are saying doesnt make any sense. you cant have ten kids just coz you can support them. you have to think about india's resources too. we are running short of power, water and space. if we continue to multiply like this, then there wont be any space for farming and cities will keep becoming bigger and bigger and there wont be place for farming... what are you going to do then?? you may have money. but can you eat it? one day we in cities will have power outages like in villages. one day there will be so many ppl in india that passengers will have to jump off planes with parachutes coz there wont be place to land the plane... 



The_Devil_Himself said:


> Maybe you don't know you have like 1-2 months waitime for a freaking dentists appointment in US,just imagine some superficiality.And not to forget the prohibiting costs.



1-2 months to meet the dentist? that is exaggeration. that is not true. what a joke haha... they have few nos of docs coz students do what they feel like doing. not like here where colleges are factories mass producing engineers and docs. thats why we have very very few researchers. all the new stuff is made by them americans and we just work on that.  



The_Devil_Himself said:


> what can I say?60 years aren't many methink.



60 aint many? how many more you need? 300?. there are no excuses. 



The_Devil_Himself said:


> Are we just folding our arms and looking like a dumb?Lols.



what are we doing? really IT and freedom of press, expression is the only thing we can boast of. 



The_Devil_Himself said:


> you said it my friend.for me:Humans\citizens over country anyday? who gives a damn about your skyscraoers when your citizens are not least bit happy?



there will always be some people who wil be unhappy, you cant please all.



The_Devil_Himself said:


> Hurting? And No my friend you don't live in a place where you see the best.I am afraid Nepal isn't there on world's political map anywhere.No personal offense.I have no Idea how an average nepalese percieves India.and remember GRASS IS ALWAYS GREENER ON THE OTHERSIDE OF THE FENCE.



respect people of all nationalities. what did you learn in school?. just coz he in nepal, doesnt mean he cant see or know anything. never degrade any country. 

and i dont believe in flaming anybody. flamers are losers. when they dont have anything to say in defence, they flame. its the easiest thing they can do...


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## The_Devil_Himself (Aug 16, 2008)

I will be short.



nix said:


> what you are saying doesnt make any sense. you cant have ten kids just coz you can support them. you have to think about india's resources too. we are running short of power, water and space. if we continue to multiply like this, then there wont be any space for farming and cities will keep becoming bigger and bigger and there wont be place for farming... what are you going to do then?? you may have money. but can you eat it? *one day we in cities will have power outages like in villages*. one day there will be so many ppl in india that passengers will have to jump off planes with parachutes coz there wont be place to land the plane...



exactly,I can have 10 children and still be considered equal to peeps with 1 kid.Its entirely my choice and having a choice doesn't mean you have to do it.

think rationally,will ya please?

read the bolded parts,I am sorry to say but you are a fuking racist my friend.You think people like you living in cities are different than the people living in villages.Anyways no point arguing over it.



*



			1-2 months to meet the dentist? that is exaggeration. that is not true. what a joke haha... they have few nos of docs coz students do what they feel like doing.
		
Click to expand...

*I have never been to US but If some peeps from US say so,I would rather believe them.


> not like here where colleges are factories mass producing engineers and docs.


still we,students, are competent enough for anything and generally better than any other country on an average.

And In case you don't know there are hardly about 8k MBBS seats in govt. colleges per year iirc.JUST 8K. 





> thats why we have very very few researchers. all the new stuff is made by them americans and we just work on that.


blah.....blah......blah.....why don't you go on and become a reseacher?





> 60 aint many? how many more you need? 300?. there are no excuses.


that was a comparative figure and yes there is no excuse!





> what are we doing? really IT and freedom of press, expression is the only thing we can boast of.


you forgot shaktimaan and shahrukh khan ffs!

Seriously,ask the peeps who don't have them and you will know.We tend to take things for granted which isn't so in the first place.





> *respect people of all nationalities. what did you learn in school?. just coz he in nepal, doesnt mean he cant see or know anything. never degrade any country. *


HYPOCRITES.you fuking degrade your OWN country.Obviously he knows nothing compared to me when it comes to India and life in india,don't you think so?



> and i dont believe in flaming anybody. flamers are losers. when they dont have anything to say in defence, they flame. its the easiest thing they can do...


exactly.


no point arguing with ingrateful losers.

*edit:*
double quoted and bolded for attention.


> > *
> > We come from a land of two-month waits for a dentist’s appointment (and cancellation charges if you don’t show up). Of surly cashiers who pretend not to notice you standing in front of them. Of supermarket checkout girls who will call their manager to complain about YOU. Of postal employees who separate themselves from the world by three-inch-thick bulletproof glass. Of emergency rooms empty of attendants, with nothing but a clipboard for you to put your name down. Of drugstore employees so notoriously bitter that our friend could dress up as one for the Halloween parade and yell at people and everyone who saw him — people of all races, from all neighborhoods, representing all income classes — immediately got the joke.
> > But here…! When you need your teeth cleaned, you can make an appointment for that afternoon.*


I have no reason not to believe what they say.Medical tourism is for real ffs!

SOURCE

CONCLUSION:

I don't say India is a great-great country,but for god's sake,stop degrading it.It is what it is,and its upto us,the citizens, to do it better.Stop being a whining b!tch when you can be better.If you don't like something,do something about it.Penny penny makes many.Least you can do it stop badmouthing.

and lastly,if you think China and US and UK is better,then please move there.We don't need you anyways..

From RDB:No country is born great,they have to be made great.

*No more posts in this thread.*


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## Faun (Aug 16, 2008)

^^you bear the burden of your words *s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj44/visio159/Unismilies/81.png


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## The_Devil_Himself (Aug 16, 2008)

^lol,start making sense or GTFO.

god,I hate wannabe orators..


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## Faun (Aug 16, 2008)

^^STFU boi
You are venting out some accumulated pus


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## kumarmohit (Aug 16, 2008)

I do not disagree with some of the points. Those which I do disagree with I have given answers for.



IronManForever said:


> Largest Military - CHECK



Here is a look at what the so called largest miltary is doing in the country...

*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong

Hardly something to be proud of...



IronManForever said:


> Population Control - CHECK




This also means that the country is losing people of working age faster than  it can produce the work force. The PRC is expected to go too old to work in around a quarter of century because people are not ma,ing enough children to fulfil the jobs. Either way their economy is gonna end up in a big trouble.



IronManForever said:


> 60 aint many? how many more you need? 300?. there are no excuses.




Ok not 300 may be but do you know that it took USA more than 150 years after its independence to reach its current status. It took the British Empire around 300 years to be built from a small island to a centralised system in which the sun never set! 60 years are not enough to make a decent state, you talking about a country!


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## karnivore (Aug 16, 2008)

nix said:
			
		

> *you cant have ten kids just coz you can support them. you have to think about india's resources too.*


This wins the medal for the silliest comment. 
*i180.photobucket.com/albums/x31/trash609/smilie/image20.gif


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## IronManForever (Aug 16, 2008)

To All...

I happened to post a few provoking things in the first place against the very sentiments of my Indian brothers; in retaliation to a preceding post which was demeaning to the very sentiments of my Chinese brothers; or for that matter, against thread itself. I apologise for speaking out any feelings that I have and though I have few more things to say with EVIDENCE, I would prefer holding myself back to preserve the harmony that we have in this thread.

Nevertheless; I request dear forum members to display some conduct in the usage of language.

and to The_Devil_Himself; I have stayed 4 years in India, 1 year in China and am a freelance journalist for The Kathmandu Post. So I would by default prefer not to bluff anything in a forum to demean my self-respect and have been holding my stand in this thread as well. Thank you.


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## desiibond (Aug 16, 2008)

> 1-2 months to meet the dentist? that is exaggeration. that is not true. what a joke haha... they have few nos of docs coz students do what they feel like doing. not like here where colleges are factories mass producing engineers and docs. thats why we have very very few researchers. all the new stuff is made by them americans and we just work on that.



It's not exaggeration.

My uncle faced the headache of US medical service. he started having breathing problem and when asked at the hospital, he couldn't get appointment for weeks and for immediate appointment they can take it as emergency case but the medical bills will be in excess of 20,000USD. Just for breathing problem. In the end, he took some pills and flew back to India. 
After coming back to India,

appoinment : 100 bucks
medicine : 500 bucks.

total 600 bucks for a good treatment.

Now, tell me? which is the safe place to live??


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## Faun (Aug 16, 2008)

^^your motherland is always safe !


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## trublu (Aug 16, 2008)

I guess it's time for the mods to move this thread to fight club.


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## karnivore (Aug 17, 2008)

IronManForever said:


> I happened to post a few provoking things in the first place against the very sentiments of my Indian brothers; in retaliation to a preceding post which was demeaning to the very sentiments of my Chinese brothers; or for that matter, against thread itself.
> ....
> I have stayed 4 years in India, 1 year in China and am a freelance journalist for The Kathmandu Post. So I would by default prefer not to bluff anything in a forum to demean my self-respect and have been holding my stand in this thread as well. Thank you.


Firstly, my post(#9), which you refer to as "demeaning to the very sentiments of [your] Chinese brothers" had nothing to do with your "Chinese brothers". It was a criticism of an authoritarian government and not of the people of China. As a freelance journo, I must say, your ability to peel the onion is, well, lousy. 

Secondly, I, personally, do not find your post to be provocative. I find it pretty underwhelming and grossly misinformed. I can accept that from the teenagers and barely out of teens, on this forum, but as a freelance journo, it is even more inexcusable.

Thirdly, aren't you glad that Mr Prachanda, instead of becoming the Mao of Nepal, has chosen to be democratically elected head of state, and in doing so accepted what majority of the world, other than CHINA, practices. May be you should take a leaf out of his notebook.

Fourthly, you would do HUMANITY a great favour if you can worry a little bit about your Tibetan brothers, along with your Indian and Chinese brothers.


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## nix (Aug 17, 2008)

desiibond said:


> It's not exaggeration.
> 
> My uncle faced the headache of US medical service. he started having breathing problem and when asked at the hospital, he couldn't get appointment for weeks and for immediate appointment they can take it as emergency case but the medical bills will be in excess of 20,000USD. Just for breathing problem. In the end, he took some pills and flew back to India.
> After coming back to India,
> ...



its much easier in the US for those who have insurance. those going from india should get a complete health check up and then go. that is advisable. 

look,its not like i hate my country. im grateful to be born here. i was just highlighting the differences b/w india and china and areas where we need to improve. some people take it as a personal insult. i expected to see immature replies to my post, but i will not stoop to such low levels as some other members on this thread. cheapsters.. they dont talk like educated, civilized beings.


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## mehra.rakesh (Aug 17, 2008)

Well my 2 cents for the thread . 

China lacks what India has in abundance Narayan Murthy , Kiran Shaw , Nandan Nilekani, Tata, ............................... & ofcourse Me !!!!!!!!!!

I beleve that this is purely because of the freedom of the mind. You wud say i am nuts to say something like this . But as u speak to the folks in India they dream of having their own company their very own startups be it selling pickles,condoms or services like aviation etc. Its not so in China . The labour's cheaper and Infra is better .
But at what cost ??

When i was in China for a very brief period i read this news article of a man holding his own against the local administration which was acquiring the land for some gentleman's factory . He was branded a heretic, insane & what not by local media . But same news as reported by world media was very different . 


Seriously speaking the chinese model resembles what the Japs did way back in the 60's & 70's make shitloads of products and sell them at ridiculously low prices . If they manage to do what those Japs managed read "Quality Control" then they wud be the heroes of 21st century. 

India became independent in 1991 a bit too late But there's no denying India the moment of its glory and make no mistake India is growing with the burden of its politicians not because of them .Thnk if just this one factor improved wat cud be DONE . 


P.S. :: The new buildings in China look as if they came straight from some scifi movie ,all white (interiors) and crappy urggghhhh . Its an eye sore .


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## IronManForever (Aug 17, 2008)

@Mehra.rakesh
Yes dude you are right and perhaps you help me highlight my point which is;
No country, I say no country developed in a day, just like one of the members said. No country developed without facing HARD times. China has and is facing that hard time. India and people here (not offensive  ) are not willing to pay the price. So, SO.. No one need complain about the country India not being upto the mark, and, AND, It'll stay like this or get even worse until and unless people LEARN to pay the price, whatever it takes; WHATEVER IT TAKES!!! At the risk of sounding cliche; as they say to get something you oughtta give something. Hope I get this thing through you guys. 

And @karnivore

Well that was enough for me to pull up some courage to face you guys again.

1.Well; Who do you think is not satisfied with the Chinese Government? The whole billion? No my friend, the majority are living with it and dare I say liking it (though such an assumption is taken from biased sources; or.. well; we deliberately call it biased to prove our point; and as we are outside the system, that kind of error is permissible  ).
Very few people dislike the system and the majority have adapted to it. I always agreed and do still agree that human rights situation when compared with global figures, China more or less, has to work upon it. 
If you ask me, China has better human rights than any south-east Asian country. As humans we are entitled to a handful of fundamental rights. But isn't getting enough food to eat, getting good and accessible health services; a human right after all. Above all; we are living organisms; and we should get to live. Aren't food, shelter, cloth and health are more basic needs and preliminary rights that we should be guaranteed of? I don't know about you but for me, they are more important than right to speech; or language; or religion. And they are for you all, for everybody; ask yourself. Isnt China better than the majority south-east Asian countries when you include these parameters?

2.I do not understand what is so much grossly and overwhelmingly misinformed about my post. And please lets keep my freelance journo being thing away. Why? Cuz that was just an intro I felt I should gave. And the freelance word itself tells Im not much into it. This hobby of mine has given me nothing more than a few thousand rupees till date. I write more about social violence and criminal psychology than I do about politics. Maybe it's my mistake; I should have said I'm a freelance writer.

3.My dear friend; I felt so happy that I'm having discussion with a tough guy who keeps track of so many things. Now as far as it goes; I am a communist but not exactly a Maoist. And regarding Prachanda accepting to become the Prime Minister via a Democratic method? Man, that was heaven for the Maoist Party. They are in Heaven now, they can have all the crucial ministries for themselves, they are in the executives now, what more can they ask for? The party wanted the earlier government to warrant declaration of Republic, that was done. Everything is going in accordance to what thy wanted; albeit a bit slow because of this democratic processes and formalities. Wonder how communist countries develop infrastructure so quick? Thats innate man.

4.Lets not talk about Tibetans now. Even in India, the volatile north-east has caused many petty problems I believe. I studied about few conflicts at school and the demands for Greater This and Greater that. Meghalaya? Nagaland? Im not much through with that article which I still have but If you ask, I can give you evidence after a bit of searching.


Sorry guys I couldnt stop myself; so many things were being spoken, and I had to say something. I shall take responsibility of each and every word said.


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## karnivore (Aug 17, 2008)

> 1.Well; Who do you think is not satisfied with the Chinese Government? The whole billion? No my friend, the majority are living with it and dare I say liking it (though such an assumption is taken from biased sources; or.. well; we deliberately call it biased to prove our point; and as we are outside the system, that kind of error is permissible  ).
> 
> Very few people dislike the system and the majority have adapted to it. I always agreed and do still agree that human rights situation when compared with global figures, China more or less, has to work upon it.


So the whole world lies except for the Chinese media run by the government. Typical of the denialists. Reminds me of Russia of the late 70s and 80s. Yes over a billion people are living with it, what else do you expect them to do after Tiananmen Square massacre. Can you please provide any independent source, to substantiate your claim that "the majority are ... liking it"



> If you ask me, China has better human rights than any south-east Asian country. As humans we are entitled to a handful of fundamental rights. But isn't getting enough food to eat, getting good and accessible health services; a human right after all. Above all; we are living organisms; and we should get to live. Aren't food, shelter, cloth and health are more basic needs and preliminary rights that we should be guaranteed of? I don't know about you but for me, they are more important than right to speech; or language; or religion. And they are for you all, for everybody; ask yourself.


I completely agree with you that "food, shelter, cloth and health" are vital. But what you are implying is that "freedom" is a small price to pay for all those. The question is why. Why can't "living organisms" have "basic needs and preliminary rights" and at the same time the "right to speech; or language; or religion". Why should there be a trade off. And why is it that this trade off becomes necessary only in communist run countries and not anywhere else. Let me draw an analogy here. In a prison, a convict gets food, shelter, medicines and other "basic" amenities. The only sacrifice s/he has to make is the freedom of movement. By your logic prison should be a nice place to be in.

My dear friend, my right to "food, shelter, cloth and health" stands on equal footing with my "right to speech; or language; or religion". One can not be traded for another.



> Isnt China better than the majority south-east Asian countries when you include these parameters?


No.


> 2.I do not understand what is so much grossly and overwhelmingly misinformed about my post. And please lets keep my freelance journo being thing away. Why? Cuz that was just an intro I felt I should gave. And the freelance word itself tells Im not much into it. This hobby of mine has given me nothing more than a few thousand rupees till date. I write more about social violence and criminal psychology than I do about politics. Maybe it's my mistake; I should have said I'm a freelance writer.


I found these comments UNDERWHELMING
"Largest Military - CHECK
Population Control - CHECK"

And this MISINFORMED
"Far Better Health Services - CHECK"

"Largest Military" can be a reason of pride for many, but to sane people, it is a reason of concern. The famed "Population Control" is nothing but akin to blackmail - like holding a gun against a couples head - a direct violation of human rights. No reasonable person would be too proud of that. Its like those neo-nazis claiming that Hitler helped in reducing population (sic). As with "Far Better Health Services", less is said, the better it is. We all saw how SARS was handled, didn't we ?

Yes indeed, it was mistake that you mentioned that you are a journo. It was an attempt to argue from authority, but a lousy attempt, nevertheless.



> 3.My dear friend; I felt so happy that I'm having discussion with a tough guy who keeps track of so many things. Now as far as it goes; I am a communist but not exactly a Maoist. And regarding Prachanda accepting to become the Prime Minister via a Democratic method? Man, that was heaven for the Maoist Party. They are in Heaven now, they can have all the crucial ministries for themselves, they are in the executives now, what more can they ask for? The party wanted the earlier government to warrant declaration of Republic, that was done. Everything is going in accordance to what thy wanted; albeit a bit slow because of this democratic processes and formalities. Wonder how communist countries develop infrastructure so quick? Thats innate man.


I agree with you that the Maoists got what they wanted, albeit, through the route of democracy. My point was not WHAT they got, but HOW they got it. Through plebesite. Mr Prachanda proved once again that plebesite is where the real power is. What flows from the barrel of the gun is terror. He was clever enough to see the opportunity and grab it with both hands. Not that I am impressed any bit, by Mr Prachanda's tactics of blackmail, but hey, Nepal finally has democracy. (But since you are a communist, I am guessing you are not too happy with this democracy. You would rather like to live in a prison)

Having that being said, let me also remind you of the funny nature of democracy, which I am sure you would get to know sooner or later. In democracy, unlike autocracy, ruling government changes. Just because, the Maoists are holding key position today, it does not mean that they will do so forever. Unless of course they manage to manipulate plebesite, the way their Bengal brothers do, and reduce it to nothing more than a farce.

Yes communist countries can do a lot of things a lot faster than many countries, because, as I said earlier, people, for them, are a nasty zit on a donkey's butt.



> 4.Lets not talk about Tibetans now. Even in India, the volatile north-east has caused many petty problems I believe. I studied about few conflicts at school and the demands for Greater This and Greater that. Meghalaya? Nagaland? Im not much through with that article which I still have but If you ask, I can give you evidence after a bit of searching.


Please show me how China's Tibet is equal to India's North East. You have now painted all conflicts with the same colour. If you had equated Kashmir to Tibet, and did a Amir Khan, then may be, just may be, I would have understood, because both arose from flawed agreements made in the past. (Even then the comparison would fall flat). So please elaborate. (By that I do not mean that I expect a pedagogic explanation of the reasons of unrest in the NE. I mean, elaborate how NE India = Chinese Tibet). 

A better equation for NE India would have been with Aksai Chin. 

Sloppy, very very sloppy.


----------



## adi007 (Aug 17, 2008)

mehra.rakesh said:


> *India became independent in 1991 a bit too late* ... .



WTF


----------



## Renny (Aug 17, 2008)

^ Dude he means economic reforms and liberalization that were initiated in 1991.


----------



## IronManForever (Aug 18, 2008)

@karnivore; sorry for late reply; I was kinda sick... 



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> So the whole world lies except for the Chinese media run by the government. Typical of the denialists. Reminds me of Russia of the late 70s and 80s. Yes over a billion people are living with it, what else do you expect them to do after Tiananmen Square massacre. Can you please provide any independent source, to substantiate your claim that "the majority are ... liking it"



Sorry man, I can't. Why? Because every source is biased in one or the other parametric measures. I would call any independant researcher as biased to his own beliefs and background; there's nothing unbiased. And you say the whole world is gaga over Chinese situation, and China is mum about it? Well those who have such visions about china, are themselves from a very different political scenario.
And you know about media. Innately, media aims for the bad...

And people liking it? Well, people did like it when India nuked at Pokhran(1998 I guess?) under the nose of the so called vigilante pro-American NPT. People always like it when their country stands out. Wonder why  politicians stress on going to space/Moon; or developing Nukes? One aim is to boost the Morale of the countrymen, so that they may get along their duty and show dedication to their duty. And China as is, soaring by the moment; I have no doubts that majority are happy; and you know, there's nothing called 100%. There's always a minority. 



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> I completely agree with you that "food, shelter, cloth and health" are vital. But what you are implying is that "freedom" is a small price to pay for all those. The question is why. Why can't "living organisms" have "basic needs and preliminary rights" and at the same time the "right to speech; or language; or religion". Why should there be a trade off. And why is it that this trade off becomes necessary only in communist run countries and not anywhere else. Let me draw an analogy here. In a prison, a convict gets food, shelter, medicines and other "basic" amenities. The only sacrifice s/he has to make is the freedom of movement. By your logic prison should be a nice place to be in.
> 
> My dear friend, my right to "food, shelter, cloth and health" stands on equal footing with my "right to speech; or language; or religion". One can not be traded for another.



Exactly. Indian regime emphasizes upon so-called fundamental rights, which I dare say are less fundamental than the basic necessities (food; shelter, cloth, health). Chinese autocracy(yes; I don't see why autocracy should be taken negatively) guarantees you  those basic necessities with a small trade-off from your other rights. 
Don't you understand the condition of poor people in India; those who don't have food, those who have nothing!! They'd happily trade off SOME rights if they are guaranteed food; shelter, etc.
Comparing chine with Prison is too much. If you refer to China as a Prison; I refer to India as ... you know where you can't find enough to eat, etc  . Id rather trade off freedom; THAN trade off food. 

Heck; Right to Equality;  look at the status of Women; of lower casts; of tribes...The rich-poor divide. India is ruled by rich people and poor people have no say. Is this the culture in India? 
Few months ago I heard something about MBBS graduates rallying and shouting slogans because so and so(under-privileged) had reservations in AIIMS or something like that. Thats wrong isn't it? And I know why they did it; because the reservations were misused by the rich people from the so-called underprivileged ethnicity. That is wrong too. So where is the RIGHT thing? 

Word for politicians: Don't look ahead; look behind yourself and see what you left out. What do you think; dreaming of nukes when people don't have food; is that logical? Running after China and trying to beat it at its game; trust me. Indian Government has a lot of homework to do before that. 



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> I found these comments UNDERWHELMING
> "Largest Military - CHECK
> Population Control - CHECK"
> 
> ...




Largest Military; Did I say anything before or after that? Am I wrong that China has the largest Military? China even has the largest workforce as of now; Should I be punished? 

Population Control is not obligatory FYI. If your job doesn't exclusively ask you and If you are financially capable(as some allowances will be canceled) of sustaining the extra Children, you are free to have more than one. Its totally your wish and some people prefer to stay by the policy; some don't. Farmers have more children; businessmen have more children; even one doctor I met during my stay in Xin-Xiang had 2 children. Some people don't want to lose the allowance they get and don't want the burden of an extra child, so they stay by the policy.
And If you think that One-Child-Policy has been forced at gunpoint; I wonder what you think of the Gandhi sibling who caused a Havoc by forcing vasectomy to men somewhere near Mumbai? I'm not clear with the data; though I'm sure about something of the sort happening. Was it Sanjay Gandhi? I hope some forum member maybe able to point out the peculiars.

And I did not understand these;

“No freedom of movement – CHECK
Kill citizens and then charge their family for the bullets - CHECK
Displace citizens so rich can have some RnR – CHECK

Chinese people are Lame, can't walk? No freedom of movement? Clear this out.
Seriously; an ideal communist country aims of providing everything to the citizens for free according to their necessity. Karl Marx ideals, perhaps? (Never read the book but I do know a bit of what's written inside.) So I donot believe that one has to pay for bullets. 
The third point? Displace Citizens who are rich? Care to back it up? 

If my comments (those Largest Military - CHECK; Population control – CHECK) were so underwhelming to you, please do note that it was just a post written in good humour; in reply to the preceding post by you; which in my opinion were grossly extrapolating and modifying the exact facts.



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> As with "Far Better Health Services", less is said, the better it is. We all saw how SARS was handled, didn't we ?


I don't know if you are supporting me or being hypocrite or whatever; but that was one example which I wanted to give to you to highlight the superior health control measures that were applied. Do you realize how such a disastrous disease that can spread like anything and can kill within few days; do you realize how such an epidemic was brought into control within 2 years? It would have swiped half of the medical staff in India had it originated here. But your example is flawed; simply because that disease cannot cause an epidemic here due to environmental factors. 
And do you realise that no vaccine was made for the SARS-CoV Coronavirus; or as a matter of fact; no coronavirus had any vaccine against it before that. Chinese researchers prepared the vaccine indigenously within 1 year and became successful in bringing the epidemic to a screeching halt. Well for this one I have an  article from a JAMA Journalist as evidence. 

And of course you don't know how effective vaccination plans are in China. 

You guys give the example of Medical Tourism in India as a great achievement? Whats it doing to the poor and the helpless? Are they to be left out from everything? I said it from my first post. Its not that health services aren't available in India; but mass mobilization is lacking and centralization of services persists. China has a more holistic health system; includes all areas; includes the rich and the poor; communist ideologies; building from the ground-up, you know...

And by the way WordWeb defines journalist as;
1.A writer for newspapers and magazines.
2.Someone who keeps a diary or journal.




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> I agree with you that the Maoists got what they wanted, albeit, through the route of democracy. My point was not WHAT they got, but HOW they got it. Through plebesite. Mr Prachanda proved once again that plebesite is where the real power is. What flows from the barrel of the gun is terror. He was clever enough to see the opportunity and grab it with both hands. Not that I am impressed any bit, by Mr Prachanda's tactics of blackmail, but hey, Nepal finally has democracy. (But since you are a communist, I am guessing you are not too happy with this democracy. You would rather like to live in a prison)
> 
> Having that being said, let me also remind you of the funny nature of democracy, which I am sure you would get to know sooner or later. In democracy, unlike autocracy, ruling government changes. Just because, the Maoists are holding key position today, it does not mean that they will do so forever. Unless of course they manage to manipulate plebesite, the way their Bengal brothers do, and reduce it to nothing more than a farce.
> 
> Yes communist countries can do a lot of things a lot faster than many countries, because, as I said earlier, people, for them, are a nasty zit on a donkey's butt.



So whats wrong if Prachanda used democratic means? It helped satisfy some and shut the mouth of some others; a very clever move indeed. 
Now Prachanda and Blackmail? I don't get it.
And naah; trust me, I couldn't be happier than this because to convince others we have democracy but for ourselves; it's a lion in a sheep's skin. 

Communist countries do things a lot better and faster because the regime knows and the people understand that without paying a price; ambitions are unreachable...

Listen Communism; or Maoism does not mean violence; even in its vaguest sense.. Its the way the thing is practiced. Communist Ideals are used all over the world; yet people dread from the word 'communism'. Karl Marx's ideals; is following them a sin? Trust me; all political systems borrow some or the other thing from his ideals; A communist country in its ideal sense, would be the goal of any country; why? because the system is so stable and the citizens do their duty and live as equals.. and get all their basic needs from the country. China is just moving closer to it; China is doing what it takes and is paying the price; it's a matter of time other countries realize the fact. 



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Please show me how China's Tibet is equal to India's North East. You have now painted all conflicts with the same colour. If you had equated Kashmir to Tibet, and did a Amir Khan, then may be, just may be, I would have understood, because both arose from flawed agreements made in the past. (Even then the comparison would fall flat). So please elaborate. (By that I do not mean that I expect a pedagogic explanation of the reasons of unrest in the NE. I mean, elaborate how NE India = Chinese Tibet).



Regarding Tibet; you tell me as you raised the topic first. Whether black or white; a conflict is a conflict. N-E violence again; Punjab Insurgency, to name a few. 
And all these riots and communal disharmony that we see in India, the frequent bombings; etcetera; Doesn't it reflect how impotent this democratic government is?

And I haven't even touched upon corruption; crime. I'm getting sick looking at the state of corruption and how Manmohan Singh's Government saved itself from non-confidence vote...? Should I say what happens to corrupts/criminals in China? Yes, thats the way it works and it's effective and under control.

At this Snail-Pace; do you in your best senses think India might overtake China? What about the future? Isn't it high time Indian people learn to pay the price?




			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Sloppy, very very sloppy.



A personal comment; I don't mind it. But lets not bear any attitude like that.


----------



## karnivore (Aug 18, 2008)

> Sorry man, I can't. Why? Because every source is biased in one or the other parametric measures. I would call any independant researcher as biased to his own beliefs and background; there's nothing unbiased. And you say the whole world is gaga over Chinese situation, and China is mum about it? Well those who have such visions about china, are themselves from a very different political scenario.
> And you know about media. Innately, media aims for the bad...
> 
> And people liking it? Well, people did like it when India nuked at Pokhran(1998 I guess?) under the nose of the so called vigilante pro-American NPT. People always like it when their country stands out. Wonder why politicians stress on going to space/Moon; or developing Nukes? One aim is to boost the Morale of the countrymen, so that they may get along their duty and show dedication to their duty. And China as is, soaring by the moment; I have no doubts that majority are happy; and you know, there's nothing called 100%. There's always a minority.


  So you don’t have a source to support your claim ? Then how did you ever come to the conclusion that people in China are “liking it”. Should I venture a guess that it is that typical communist FAITH, with which all communists around the world once loved to delude themselves to sleep - like everything in Russia is fine, like everything in East Germany is fine, like everything in Romania is fine – until that is they fell apart. And guess what, it turned out that the “biased” media was right all along. _Ad ignorantiam_.

  So please enlighten me how many people gave up their fundamental rights when Pokhran happened ? True the entire space race is in itself a product of cold war politics. True, “politicians stress on going to space/Moon” for political mileage. But how may country try to achieve those at cost of freedom. Only CHINA.

  As with nuke, I guess it has more to do with psychology than anything else.

  And please, just because I am critical of China, it does not automatically mean I am blind towards India’s problems. Please don’t prop up your straw man.


> Exactly. Indian regime emphasizes upon so-called fundamental rights, which I dare say are less fundamental than the basic necessities (food; shelter, cloth, health). Chinese autocracy(yes; I don't see why autocracy should be taken negatively) guarantees you those basic necessities with a small trade-off from your other rights.
> Don't you understand the condition of poor people in India; those who don't have food, those who have nothing!! They'd happily trade off SOME rights if they are guaranteed food; shelter, etc.
> ……
> Heck; Right to Equality; look at the status of Women; of lower casts; of tribes...The rich-poor divide. India is ruled by rich people and poor people have no say. Is this the culture in India?
> ...


  Here are your assumptions.
  1. The “so-called fundamental rights” can’t be had if “basic necessities” are to be provided. (I have one word for you “why ?”)
  2. People happily give up their freedom etc for food. So state should take advantage of that human trait. (I have nothing to say here)
  3. In China, no problem exists regarding health, food etc. (Care to corroborate that fact)
  4. If I can find more flaws with Indian system, the Chinese system stands vindicated. (Logical fallacy.)

  FYI, the male to female ratio in China is approx 120 to 100. Hmm……. Also, the rich and poor divide in China is far worse than in India or Brazil.

  The movement against Caste based reservation is one more example of why India is far better than China. At least Indian government does not run its shinny tanks on unarmed students. Here in India or any other democratic country, if citizens don’t like a government decision they can protest against it. It is, of course a concept lost on communists.



> Comparing chine with Prison is too much. If you refer to China as a Prison; I refer to India as ... you know where you can't find enough to eat, etc . Id rather trade off freedom; THAN trade off food.


  I did not compare China to prison. It was an analogy to show the logical fallacy of YOUR premise. Your premise was that for food etc, freedom can be sacrificed. If it is true, then the prison, based on the same premise, is a nice place to be in. That’s all that there is to it, my friend.

  You say that “Id rather trade off freedom; THAN trade off food”. No you won’t. You say that because you have both. So if I say, I will feed you for life, but you have to remain in a 9 ft by 9 ft room for all your life, you would agree to it. Would ya, my friend ?


> Largest Military; Did I say anything before or after that? Am I wrong that China has the largest Military? China even has the largest workforce as of now; Should I be punished?
> 
> Population Control is not obligatory FYI. If your job doesn't exclusively ask you and If you are financially capable(as some allowances will be canceled) of sustaining the extra Children, you are free to have more than one. Its totally your wish and some people prefer to stay by the policy; some don't. Farmers have more children; businessmen have more children; even one doctor I met during my stay in Xin-Xiang had 2 children. Some people don't want to lose the allowance they get and don't want the burden of an extra child, so they stay by the policy.
> And If you think that One-Child-Policy has been forced at gunpoint; I wonder what you think of the Gandhi sibling who caused a Havoc by forcing vasectomy to men somewhere near Mumbai? I'm not clear with the data; though I'm sure about something of the sort happening. Was it Sanjay Gandhi? I hope some forum member maybe able to point out the peculiars.


  As one of the reasons to be jealous of China, you gave Largest Military. I simply questioned the judgment of the premise. Military is a resource hungry apparatus, which does not give any economic returns other than a flimsy psychological relief. Bigger the military, larger the economic drain. So large military can’t be a reason for jealousy. Technically advanced military, perhaps is. That’s why I found it UNDERWHELMING, not FACTUALLY incorrect.

  So you are not even aware of population policy of China ? A Chinese couple can’t have more than 1 child. Exceptions to the one child rule are:
  * Chinese minority groups (56 recognized minorities) can have 2-3 children [Eh..so China too makes exception to minorities like India ? If China does it, it must be right then.]
* A married couple who are BOTH ONLY children are allowed to have 2 children
* In the event of the death of a child, a couple can apply for permission to have another


  As with Sanjay Gandhi’s vasectonomy drive, it was an organized lie, perpetrated by his rivals within the Congress. There is no truth in it. Sanjay Gandhi did initiate family planning drive, but the whole thing was blown out of proportion by the bureaucrats and this resulted in the myth. Even if it was true, I would be critical of it as well.


> And I did not understand these;
> 
> “No freedom of movement – CHECK
> Kill citizens and then charge their family for the bullets - CHECK
> ...


A farmer in rural China can’t visit Shanghai, Honk Kong etc, unless he has a legitimate work permit. That’s what is called “no freedom of movement”. This was done to ensure (sic) that the cities are free from squatters. Because, you see, squatters don’t look good.

  After the Tiananmen Square Massacre, the families of the killed students were charged for the bullets, that killed their beloved.

  Shanghai, particularly, was a city of shanties. To build the modern city with shinny glass walled buildings, these people were displaced and relocated miles away from the city. And guess what the work permit rule applies to them also.



> Seriously; an ideal communist country aims of providing everything to the citizens for free according to their necessity. Karl Marx ideals, perhaps? (Never read the book but I do know a bit of what's written inside.) So I donot believe that one has to pay for bullets.
> The third point? Displace Citizens who are rich? Care to back it up?


  I understand that you live on a planet where countries like Russia, East Germany, Cuba etc do not exist. Someone who speaks of “ideal communist country” in 2008, surely is not from this planet. 

  And I never said that the rich are displaced.


> If my comments (those Largest Military - CHECK; Population control – CHECK) were so underwhelming to you, please do note that it was just a post written in good humour; in reply to the preceding post by you; which in my opinion were grossly extrapolating and modifying the exact facts.


  Did I respond to that post of yours ? I did not. I responded only when you tried to argue from the point of authority and pretended to be holier-than-thou.


> I don't know if you are supporting me or being hypocrite or whatever; but that was one example which I wanted to give to you to highlight the superior health control measures that were applied. Do you realize how such a disastrous disease that can spread like anything and can kill within few days; do you realize how such an epidemic was brought into control within 2 years? It would have swiped half of the medical staff in India had it originated here. But your example is flawed; simply because that disease cannot cause an epidemic here due to environmental factors.
> And do you realise that no vaccine was made for the SARS-CoV Coronavirus; or as a matter of fact; no coronavirus had any vaccine against it before that. Chinese researchers prepared the vaccine indigenously within 1 year and became successful in bringing the epidemic to a screeching halt. Well for this one I have an article from a JAMA Journalist as evidence.
> 
> And of course you don't know how effective vaccination plans are in China.
> ...


  One more assumption of yours. That in China every poor has access to health care system. 

Just like India, China too has a long way to go in this area. Just like India, which officially promotes pseudo-medicines like Homeopathy and Ayurveda, China promotes Accupunture. Both are signs of failure of the governments to make modern medicine available to every nook and corner of their respective countries.
  The reason I took up SARS was the way it was handled and the manner it was suppressed until it spilled out of China. 

What Indian doctors would have done, is a speculation you can merrily indulge in. I don’t have a problem there.



> And by the way WordWeb defines journalist as;
> 1.A writer for newspapers and magazines.
> 2.Someone who keeps a diary or journal.


  I know what a journalist is. Thank you any way.




> So whats wrong if Prachanda used democratic means? It helped satisfy some and shut the mouth of some others; a very clever move indeed.
> Now Prachanda and Blackmail? I don't get it.
> And naah; trust me, I couldn't be happier than this because to convince others we have democracy but for ourselves; it's a lion in a sheep's skin.


  Nothing’s wrong. It only confirms my point. DEMOCRACY not AUTOCRACY.


> Communist countries do things a lot better and faster because the regime knows and the people understand that without paying a price; ambitions are unreachable...
> 
> Listen Communism; or Maoism does not mean violence; even in its vaguest sense.. Its the way the thing is practiced. Communist Ideals are used all over the world; yet people dread from the word 'communism'. Karl Marx's ideals; is following them a sin? Trust me; all political systems borrow some or the other thing from his ideals; A communist country in its ideal sense, would be the goal of any country; why? because the system is so stable and the citizens do their duty and live as equals.. and get all their basic needs from the country. China is just moving closer to it; China is doing what it takes and is paying the price; it's a matter of time other countries realize the fact.


  Hey can you send me a ticket to that planet you are on. Seems like a nice place.


> Regarding Tibet; you tell me as you raised the topic first. Whether black or white; a conflict is a conflict. N-E violence again; Punjab Insurgency, to name a few.
> And all these riots and communal disharmony that we see in India, the frequent bombings; etcetera; Doesn't it reflect how impotent this democratic government is?


  So if a person kills, he is a murderer. Whether self-defense or cold blooded would not make a difference. Would it ? After all murder is a murder and conflict is a conflict. So all the conflicts all round the world are same as China’s Tibet problem. Either you have no clue what this Tibet problem is all about, or you are being hypocrite. I don't think you are a hypocrite. You appear to be a simpleton, althouh naive.

  Democracy is not perfect. But it is the best we’ve got. Also, let me remind you, unlike China, India did not march its army into NE India to acquire it. India inherited it from the Brits. Also, again unlike China, India made not attempt to change the demography by pushing outsiders to settle in NE.

  Punjab crisis was a purely political creation of Mrs Indira Ganghi which spiraled out of hand.

  Please don’t BS me with Indian history.

BTW, may be you should also read on Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region.


> And I haven't even touched upon corruption; crime. I'm getting sick looking at the state of corruption and how Manmohan Singh's Government saved itself from non-confidence vote...? Should I say what happens to corrupts/criminals in China? Yes, thats the way it works and it's effective and under control.


  Another assumption. Chinese politicians are not corrupt.

  Yes I know what happens to the criminals  in China. They send them to the gallows. And China has scored another first in this department also. China has highest number of death penalties in a year. May I politely ask, what right does a state have, to take a life.


> At this Snail-Pace; do you in your best senses think India might overtake China? What about the future? Isn't it high time Indian people learn to pay the price?


  Give one reason why India would want to overtake China ? Why does pace matter ? And even more importantly, what price are you talking here ? Freedom ? Nah……we fought for it. Now that we have tasted it, guess we will keep it for the time being. Thank you very much.

  You made a few more assumptions:

  That I represent the popular sentiments of India. I do not.

  That I am not critical of Indian hypocrisy. I am.

  That India is a true representative of an effective democracy. She is not. Now, shall I call this intellectual dishonesty or pure oversight, that you chose India, and not any other truly successful and effective democracy, to pit against China. Or is it because India is convenient tool for you.

  One thing I find contradictory in every communist who tries to play apologist for China, is that, when China was in true grips of communism, it led to severe catastrophe. The success of current China, if it can be called that, is due to capitalist ideals not because of communist ideals. So everytime an apologist tries to defend Chinese “success story”, he automatically rebuts the communist ideals. Strangely he is completely unaware of this contradiction.

  A true communists do not go so out of the way to defend China, because they know that China is a double edged sword. It cuts both ways. And it is true for a capitalist too.

Anyway, take care.
  [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]


----------



## IronManForever (Aug 18, 2008)

@karnivore



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> That I represent the popular sentiments of India. I do not.
> 
> That I am not critical of Indian hypocrisy. I am.



Then; I really lack reasons to debate you. Period.


PS: Abe bachhe ki jaan lega kya? 
I have a few confessions to make.

1. I bluffed about me being a *big* freelance writer(Yeah, you guessed right; to have more authority  ) ; Ive just submitted 4 articles to The Kathmandu Post; and 6 to Local Newspaper till date. Common; Im just 18 man, what more do you expect? 

2. Whatever maybe the reason; there are communists alive in the world; and they are not stupids.  I , seriously, prefer the system. And I am not that informed as you are about politics; so I do not have much weapons to fire against you.  I have some replies against some of your stances but heck; I'm not satisfied as I lack information. In short; *I lose*.

And I am aware of the compromises that people have to make in  preliminarily communist state. So I am not a hypocrite. Yes; maybe less informed but not a hypocrite in this case.

Anyways; I accept my inability to retaliate.

And; AND I request forum members not to flame on one small discussion. We are all here to help each other and we should pledge for the benefit of all. When we flame; it's a one on one. When we peacefully discuss; it's for all. 
Well; that's it.

Regards,
IronMan


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## desiibond (Aug 18, 2008)

WTH!!. The thread is about fake things in olympics and it went to Tibet 

ROFL.


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## eggman (Aug 18, 2008)

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing!!!


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## R2K (Aug 18, 2008)

wTF 

how much time did u take to type that post man


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## karnivore (Aug 18, 2008)

R2K said:


> wTF
> 
> how much time did u take to type that post man



Approx. 10 min. Use 9 fingers to type.



desiibond said:


> WTH!!. The thread is about fake things in olympics and it went to Tibet
> 
> ROFL.



I am sure it is amusing. However, if you follow the entire thread, you may just learn something.



IronManForever said:


> @karnivore
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Take care.


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## MetalheadGautham (Aug 18, 2008)

Second part: well, it was good looking, and that was the objective anyway. So nothing wrong. Infact, its great since it caused lesser pollution.

FIRST PART: That girl should be compensated. Money won't be enough. Its maddening.


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## hellknight (Aug 18, 2008)

Ironman.. buddy.. move your iron ass to china if you like China better than India...


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## IronManForever (Aug 18, 2008)

hellknight said:
			
		

> Ironman.. buddy.. move your iron ass to china if you like China better than India...


I'll take that as a compliment. 

ADDED:



			
				MetalheadGautham said:
			
		

> Second part: well, it was good looking, and that was the objective anyway. So nothing wrong. Infact, its great since it caused lesser pollution.



Sarcastic? Eh? 



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Approx. 10 min. Use 9 fingers to type.


 It took me one full hour to think and type. Nevertheless, I enjoyed it.



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> I am sure it is amusing. However, if you follow the entire thread, you may just learn something.


Well; I agree with you on this one pretty well... 



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> Take care.


No hard feeling? Eh? Common; no-one had to lose anything; other than your 10 mins, that is.


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## karnivore (Aug 18, 2008)

IronManForever said:
			
		

> It took me one full hour to think and type. Nevertheless, I enjoyed it.


Thats because you are too young to have a well structured thought pre-installed.




> No hard feeling? Eh? Common; no-one had to lose anything; other than your 10 mins, that is.


I guess I am much too old to have hard feelings against a 18 yr old. So, no hard feelings.


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## IronManForever (Aug 19, 2008)

karnivore said:
			
		

> I guess I am much too old to have hard feelings against a 18 yr old. So, no hard feelings.


Oh Common! I love hard feelings and wars, and death, and communism.


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