# Grand Strategy Games discussion thread



## heidi2521 (Jun 29, 2013)

We can use this thread to discuss grand strategy games like Europa Universalis, Victoria, Crusader Kings etc.

*Q: I have never played a strategy game. Where do I start?*

A: Hearts of Iron III with the expansions Their Finest Hour, Semper Fi and For The Motherland.

*Q: I have only ever played Civilization, Total War and Age of Empires. Where do I start?*

A: Europa Universalis III: Chronicles (not Complete. EUIII: Complete is incomplete. It is missing Heir to The Throne and Divine Wind)

dead5's recommended GSGs. 


*Europa Universalis III*

Probably the easiest one out there. You can choose over 200 nations to play from and start anytime from 1399 to 1812. If you've never played a GSG before, definitely the one you should get. As I stated earlier, DO NOT GET COMPLETE. it is incomplete. Get Chronicles instead. It is complete.

*Victoria II*

More complex than Europa Universalis III with a greater focus on economy and politics. Get this one once you are comfortable with EUIII. The a House Divided expansion improves this game a lot and is a must have. I haven't played Heart of Darkness yet, so no comments.

*Crusader Kings II*

This unlike the games mentioned above this one focuses more on dynasty building and personal relationships. You choose to play as a feudal lord from medieval europe in this game and try and gather as much prestige for your dynasty as you can. Probably one of the most intriguing titles around with the greatest element of randomness. Plays a lot like A Game of Thrones. diplomatic marriages, backstabbing, reputation, spies, assassination etc. Also a good starting point for beginners.

*Hearts of Iron III*

Are you sure you are man enough to take the challenge?


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Playing as Castille on easy in Europa Universalis III

*i.imgur.com/fwydyHs.jpg


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## chris (Jun 30, 2013)

Will your towns get destroyed after each game session or you can login any time and continue from previously left out ?


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## heidi2521 (Jun 30, 2013)

^

(;￢_￢) 

Why would any game designer do that, especially in games where campaigns can easily last 100 hours?


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## shivakanth.sujit (Jul 1, 2013)

I have never played gsg before. I would like to. What is the story behind hearts of iron and Europa. How much does each game cost at retail and online? Installation files size?? Can you recommend any good tutorial to kick start ?

Thanks in Advance!

Shiva


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## heidi2521 (Jul 1, 2013)

Europa Universalis III



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Players begin the game by choosing what date they would like to start their campaign and which country they would like to play as. Once in game, players can shape their countries in many different ways. Forms of government include various kingdoms, republics, theocracies, and tribal governments. Players can influence a nation's society and values by adjusting "sliders" such as free trade/mercantilism, and may hire court advisors such as Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. As the game advances, players can pick "national ideas" such as Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité, which give specialized bonuses.
> The game has over 300 playable countries, including giants like Ming China, regional powers like Bohemia and Kazan, and tiny nations like the Maldives. Without formal victory conditions, players sometimes set goals for themselves like raising a minor city-state to world prominence. The world map includes some 1,700 provinces and sea zones. Many provinces in the Americas, Africa, and Oceania are not owned by any country, allowing for colonization.
> Economics in the early modern era is simulated by taxes and production income from provinces, as well as trade. National merchants compete in "centers of trade" such as Venice and Lübeck, and nations focused on trading income (e.g., Holland) enjoy significant advantages. Nations which mint too much currency, or are over-reliant on gold mining, are penalized by inflation. Technology investment is important in the long run; the game does not use a Civ-style tech tree, but instead has several different technology categories, which unlock new military units and buildings.
> Diplomacy is rather detailed: royal marriages, insults, alliances, trade embargoes, and so on all affect relations between countries. Players are able to gain control over other countries peacefully through personal unions and vassalage. Early international institutions such as the Holy Roman Empire, the Papal Curia and with the Divine Wind expansion the Shogunate are simulated in some depth. Every country has its own culture and religion, a frequent source of diplomatic unity or friction.
> ...



I'd recommend staying away from HOI if you've never played a grand strategy game before. 

The main difference between normal strategy games and grand strategy games is that GSGs have a very high level of abstraction when compared to SGs. EG. You control where each of your armies move but not the units in battle themselves, you choose where the buildings are built but not their placement etc.  These games have relatively complex simulations when compared to its non grand kin. You spend a lot of time in diplomacy, going through nation statistics, managing your economy etc. compared to *most* normal strategy games.  These games also last a whole lot longer, often stretching above 50 hrs. These games rarely have fixed victory conditions so you choose if and when you have won a game. For somebody subjugating the entire middle east as brittany will be a victory, for someone else world domination.

As for tutorials, there are quite a few youtube videos and the games inbuilt ones but the best thing I can recommend is playing as a fairly stable european nation like Castille or England on one of the easier difficulties until you get a hang of the game mechanics and interface. Also, Google. Use it. You can post specific questions on ParadoxPlaza.com or /r/paradoxplaza. I'm not really that great at these games so I may not be able to help. 

CKII Complete is about 600MB to download, EUIII: Chronicles is 700MB.

The games often go on sale in GamersGate, ParadoxPlaza shop and Steam. In fact, right now you have 75% off on EUIII chronicles in GamersGate($7.50 total) and 75% off on CKII in the ParadoxPlaza shop($15 for CKII + SOI + Republic). I'd recommend GamersGate because of their rewards program and because the games are DRM free over there.

You can safely ignore DLC from CK2 not named Sword of Islam or The Republic. They are pretty much useless.


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## shivakanth.sujit (Jul 1, 2013)

Thanks!! Will check out and reply. Have exam now.   .They will end by this this week, till ten I will be studying. Anyway thanks for the clarifications .

Shiva


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## gameranand (Jul 3, 2013)

Play XCOM which was released in 90s.


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## shivakanth.sujit (Jul 3, 2013)

Just googled it. Is it suitable for newbies to GSGs ??

Shiva


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## gameranand (Jul 3, 2013)

Well actually Grand Strategy Games are not good for newbies, first play conventional RPGs and TPSs and then get to these games.
If you have already played many RTS and TPS then there is nothing "good for newbie" because you are not a newbie anymore.


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## heidi2521 (Jul 3, 2013)

Uhh.... XCOM: UFO Defense is not a grand strategy game. And why are you recommending roleplaying games and third person shooters to someone interested in strategy games 

One can be a newbie to gsgs without being a newbie to strategy games. But if a person has never played a strategy game and wants to get into gsgs he should play hoi, get his arse kicked and not come back for quite some time.


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## gameranand (Jul 3, 2013)

Actually I made a mistake I wanted to write TBS not TPS, however I have written RTS for RPG. 

A newbie will find it very difficult to micromanage everything when he don't even have practice at RTS and TBS to manage the major components of the game.


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## heidi2521 (Jul 3, 2013)

Yeah. When shivakanth.sujit said



> I have never played gsg before



I'd assumed he had experience in other strategy games like Civilization, Age of Empires, Company of Heroes, Command & Conquer because he chose to single out GSGs. Trying to get into GSGs without any experience in strategy would be like trying to get into competitive Quake 3 Arena without ever having played a shooter.


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## gameranand (Jul 5, 2013)

Yeah well GSG are meant for mature and experienced gamers.


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## shivakanth.sujit (Jul 5, 2013)

I am a complete newbie to GSGs. I have not played a lot of stratergy games.

Shiva


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## gameranand (Jul 6, 2013)

shivakanth.sujit said:


> I am a complete newbie to GSGs. I have not played a lot of stratergy games.
> 
> Shiva



Which Strategy games have you played ??


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## Piyush (Jul 6, 2013)

@OP

I find CIV series a lil slow paced while RoN/AoE are a bit fast paced.
So where do these GSGs stands in terms of game pace?


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## gameranand (Jul 6, 2013)

Piyush said:


> @OP
> 
> I find CIV series a lil slow paced while RoN/AoE are a bit fast paced.
> So where do these GSGs stands in terms of game pace?



You can say Medium and Fast Pace but you have to manage a hell lot of things. A very small decision will have a big impact.


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## Piyush (Jul 6, 2013)

gameranand said:


> You can say Medium and Fast Pace but you have to manage a hell lot of things. A very small decision will have a big impact.



Hmm... will try one when I get time from Dota 2


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## gameranand (Jul 6, 2013)

Play Hearts of Iron 3 and you'll understand.


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## shivakanth.sujit (Jul 6, 2013)

Aoe2 . Isn't that a stratergy game?

Shiva


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## heidi2521 (Jul 6, 2013)

Piyush said:


> @OP
> 
> I find CIV series a lil slow paced while RoN/AoE are a bit fast paced.
> So where do these GSGs stands in terms of game pace?



It ranges from slower than CiV's marathon speed setting to "How in the name of Arceus are we supposed to react this quick" fast. However, most of the time you will be playing it a fair bit slower than AOE 3.



gameranand said:


> You can say Medium and Fast Pace but you have to manage a hell lot of things. A very small decision will have a big impact.



They are the speeds you usually play at but you are not limited to them. 

Once you play GSGs for a certain amount of time, you realize that no decision is "small". Choosing to let the inflation rise by 1% without having appropriate advisors or national ideas in place so that you can maintain your army during war can cause your entire economy to spiral out of control, especially if you don't take steps to curb it after the war or the war lasts for very long and/or you gain a lot of provinces leading to high revolt risk due to factors like nationalism and war exhaustion meaning that you cannot disband extra units but instead have to split the army to stomp out rebellions and also have to keep a standing army incase someone else attacks. But the inflation has ensured that maintaining your army gets more and more expensive over time meaning that either you can disband your units and open yourself to aggression or you can let the inflation rise even more. Each decision you take leads to more decisions that need to be taken, each affecting your empire in various ways. You may think it is fine to let inflation rise by 1% so that you can take over Burgundy, but it has the risk of ruining your long term prospects for a short term gain.



gameranand said:


> Play Hearts of Iron 3 and you'll understand.



Are you trying to scare him away from GSGs even before he gets started? HOI III is probably one of the most complex GSG out there, and definitely isn't suited to a person who has no experience thinking through complex simulations and has never done any real micromanagement. EU III is probably the most beginner friendly one out there that doesn't try and mask the kind of domino effect your decisions can have.



shivakanth.sujit said:


> Aoe2 . Isn't that a stratergy game?
> 
> Shiva



Yup.


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## shivakanth.sujit (Jul 6, 2013)

Is it easier to start playing aoe2 or eu3?? It's been some time since I have played stratergy games, hence need something as an icebreaker.

Shiva

@dead5 what does the first word in your sig mean, google translates not able to give readable translation . The second word means "if cute janai" what does that mean??your user title means "hurray Nintendo " does it not?? And how did you get Japanese in there??

Shiva


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## heidi2521 (Jul 6, 2013)

shivakanth.sujit said:


> Is it easier to start playing aoe2 or eu3?? It's been some time since I have played stratergy games, hence need something as an icebreaker.
> 
> Shiva
> 
> ...



Start with AOE 2. After you get used to it get to EU3. 


ニホンゴニツイテ(About the Japanese)：

『任天堂万歳』　can be transliterated to "Nintendo Banzai". "Banzai" itself means "Ten thousand years" when taken literally  but is used to signify "Long Live". In modern japanese 「万歳」　is used as a cheer, much like "Hurray" in english. So the user title being translated to "Hurray Nintendo" isn't incorrect. 『フッミンガビルヅ』　is the result of a quick transliteration of a english word. The kana 「フ」　stands for both "Hu" and "Fu". Google chose the latter. The second word in my signature is 『バカワイイ』("bakawaii") which was created by merging the words 「バカ」('baka') and「カワイイ」('kawaii')。　『ジャナイ』(ja nai)、　the remaining bit, can be translated to either "are you" or "aren't you", depending on the tone and context so the second part would mean something like "aren't you bakawaii" or "are you bakawaii".


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## shivakanth.sujit (Jul 6, 2013)

Who is a bakawali???

Shiva


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## chris (Jul 6, 2013)

bakawali == cute fool, i don't know why he put it under his signature


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## shivakanth.sujit (Jul 6, 2013)

@dead5

Started AOE II , playing the William Wallace Campaign only 2 more tutorials to go. Have to stop now, have to eat, finish hw and sleep .

Shiva


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## gameranand (Jul 7, 2013)

dead5 said:


> Are you trying to scare him away from GSGs even before he gets started? HOI III is probably one of the most complex GSG out there, and definitely isn't suited to a person who has no experience thinking through complex simulations and has never done any real micromanagement. EU III is probably the most beginner friendly one out there that doesn't try and mask the kind of domino effect your decisions can have.
> .



I know him very well. He can handle that. I forced him to play DAO when he had no experience in RPG and he handled that nicely and now he is RPG lover I am sure he'll be able to handle these games also.


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## Piyush (Jul 7, 2013)

gameranand said:


> I know him very well. He can handle that. I forced him to play DAO when he had no experience in RPG and he handled that nicely and now he is RPG lover I am sure he'll be able to handle these games also.



Haha thanks for the heads up 
Will surely try one of these GSGs soon enough

Talking about RPGs, havent played a single good RPG for a while.
I wish Fallout 4 to launch soon



dead5 said:


> It ranges from slower than CiV's marathon speed setting to "How in the name of Arceus are we supposed to react this quick" fast. However, most of the time you will be playing it a fair bit slower than AOE 3.



I see
Will get accustomed to it while playing I'm sure.
Thanks for the much needed info. Will ping you again in this thread for possible doubts


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## gameranand (Jul 8, 2013)

Actually the key in these games in not to ignore anything I mean anything. A small rebellion which you can easily stop and if you ignore it then it could mean a civil war real soon.


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## heidi2521 (Jul 8, 2013)

gameranand said:


> I know him very well. He can handle that. I forced him to play DAO when he had no experience in RPG and he handled that nicely and now he is RPG lover I am sure he'll be able to handle these games also.



Even so, Dragon Age was one of the simpler RPGs and there is a world of difference between GSGs and RPGs. 



Piyush said:


> Haha thanks for the heads up
> Will surely try one of these GSGs soon enough
> 
> Talking about RPGs, havent played a single good RPG for a while.
> ...



Have you tried Ni No Kuni? As of writing, it is the second best RPG released in the west in 2013. 



gameranand said:


> Actually the key in these games in not to ignore anything I mean anything. A small rebellion which you can easily stop and if you ignore it then it could mean a civil war real soon.



I'm curious on what prompted you to type this. Nothing in this thread seems to indicate that anything is worth ignoring.


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## Piyush (Jul 8, 2013)

dead5 said:


> Have you tried Ni No Kuni? As of writing, it is the second best RPG released in the west in 2013.



Nope. But will try if the content is good. I always had, do and will prefer game content over graphics/ eye candy


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## gameranand (Jul 11, 2013)

dead5 said:


> Even so, Dragon Age was one of the simpler RPGs and there is a world of difference between GSGs and RPGs.


That was a implication of my faith in him don't take that otherwise.



dead5 said:


> I'm curious on what prompted you to type this. Nothing in this thread seems to indicate that anything is worth ignoring.


That comment was specially for Piyush as he said that he is new to this genre so I gave him a heads up.


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## heidi2521 (Jul 12, 2013)

Piyush said:


> Nope. But will try if the content is good. I always had, do and will prefer game content over graphics/ eye candy



It was developed by Level 5. 



gameranand said:


> That was a implication of my faith in him don't take that otherwise.



Okay. I just found it weird that someone was using a rather simple RPG as justification for recommending a rather complex GSG


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## ariftwister (Jul 13, 2013)

What are the difference between eu 3, hoi 3 and Victoria??

Are there any gsg other than these world war games?


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## heidi2521 (Jul 13, 2013)

ariftwister said:


> What are the difference between eu 3, hoi 3 and Victoria??
> 
> Are there any gsg other than these world war games?



HOI is the only world war game in here. 

Difference in time period:

Europa Universalis III takes place from 1399 - 1812. 

Victoria II takes place from 1836 - 1936

Hearts of Iron III takes place from 1936 to 1948

Difference in focus:

Europa Universalis 3 focuses on empire management and diplomacy. 

Victoria II focuses on economy and politics

Hearts of Iron III focuses on Military

Difference in Hardcore-ness

Europa Universalis III is hardcore.

Victoria II is hardcore-_*er*_

Hearts of Iron III is the hardcore-_*est*_

There are other GSGs like Crusader Kings II, Sengoku and Supreme Ruler: Cold War


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## ariftwister (Jul 13, 2013)

^ so all these games are developed by paradox right?


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## darkv0id (Jul 13, 2013)

^All of them except Supreme Ruler:Cold War. Paradox was still the publisher though.


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## rahulkadukar (Jul 13, 2013)

Play Supreme Commander, it is simply brilliant.


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## ariftwister (Jul 23, 2013)

Started playing hoi 3.
But really confused 
Any text tutorial for starters?


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## gameranand (Jul 24, 2013)

rahulkadukar said:


> Play Supreme Commander, it is simply brilliant.


Its a good game but can't be counted as GSG at all.



ariftwister said:


> Started playing hoi 3.
> But really confused
> Any text tutorial for starters?


Here *this* might help.


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## chris (Sep 8, 2013)

I got paradox weekly bundle. I installed CK 2. I spent some time with the game, can't get it going. In the bundle there are other games like EU 3, War of roses, etc.. (not yet installed) which is better to start ? I  have company of heros too (from digit). Which one i start ?


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## RohanM (Sep 9, 2013)

My favorite will remain the AOE II AOC..  All time classic.....


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## heidi2521 (Sep 9, 2013)

chris said:


> I got paradox weekly bundle. I installed CK 2. I spent some time with the game, can't get it going. In the bundle there are other games like EU 3, War of roses, etc.. (not yet installed) which is better to start ? I  have company of heros too (from digit). Which one i start ?



Start with either EUIII or CKII



RohanM said:


> My favorite will remain the AOE II AOC..  All time classic.....



AOE is not *G*SG.


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## chris (Sep 9, 2013)

dead5 said:


> Start with either EUIII or CKII



I will start with CKII as that is the only one installed.

Reading Beginner's guide - Crusader Kings II Wiki now.


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## pramudit (Oct 4, 2013)

did anyone played Europa Universalis IV?


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## heidi2521 (Oct 4, 2013)

pramudit said:


> did anyone played Europa Universalis IV?



Err... Yes?


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## pramudit (Oct 5, 2013)

How is it compared to Europa universalis 3? Just started playing EU3. Having some hard time expanding my empire, how do I make allies? I'm playing as burgundy(just in East of France)


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## heidi2521 (Oct 5, 2013)

Switch to EUIV. The game is more streamlined and the interface isn't nearly as intimidating. 

This should be useful:

Beginner's guide - Europa Universalis 4 Wiki


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