# Hindus in Bangladesh rattled by a string of attacks



## mediator (Jan 13, 2014)

news said:
			
		

> The activists torched,  vandalised and looted homes, shops and businesses establishments of  Hindus in the northwestern districts of Dinajpur, Lalmonirhat and  Thakurgaon and at Noapara in western Jessore district, which was the  worst affected area.  According to statistics from the Hindu-Buddhist-Christian Unity Council  (HBCUC), 485 households and 578 shops owned by Hindus in 32 districts  were vandalised since the election schedule was announced on November  25. During this period, 152 temples were also damaged.
> 
> Read more at: *www.firstpost.com/world/hindus-in-...f-attacks-1335685.html?utm_source=ref_article
> 
> The activists torched, vandalised and looted homes, shops and  businesses establishments of Hindus in the northwestern districts of  Dinajpur, Lalmonirhat and Thakurgaon and at Noapara in western Jessore  district, which was the worst affected area. According to statistics from the Hindu-Buddhist-Christian Unity  Council (HBCUC), 485 households and 578 shops owned by Hindus in 32  districts were vandalised since the election schedule was announced on  November 25. During this period, 152 temples were also damaged.



e activists torched,  vandalised and looted homes, shops and businesses establishments of  Hindus in the northwestern districts of Dinajpur, Lalmonirhat and  Thakurgaon and at Noapara in western Jessore district, which was the  worst affected area.  According to statistics from the Hindu-Buddhist-Christian Unity Council  (HBCUC), 485 households and 578 shops owned by Hindus in 32 districts  were vandalised since the election schedule was announced on November  25. During this period, 152 temples were also damage

 Read more at: *www.firstpost.com/world/hindus-in-...f-attacks-1335685.html?utm_source=ref_article

The activists torched,  vandalised and looted homes, shops and businesses establishments of  Hindus in the northwestern districts of Dinajpur, Lalmonirhat and  Thakurgaon and at Noapara in western Jessore district, which was the  worst affected area.  According to statistics from the Hindu-Buddhist-Christian Unity Council  (HBCUC), 485 households and 578 shops owned by Hindus in 32 districts  were vandalised since the election schedule was announced on November  25. During this period, 152 temples were also damaged.

 Read more at: *www.firstpost.com/world/hindus-in-...f-attacks-1335685.html?utm_source=ref_article



Hindus in Bangladesh rattled by a string of attacks | Firstpost


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## sujoyp (Jan 13, 2014)

Its always like that...Hindus are political issue in bangladesh ....the opposition BNP hates hindus and are pro pakistanis and the in-power hasina's party are said to be pro democracy and pro india

when ever opposition wants to create problem they create problem for hindus soo that it hurts present government 

How will 8% hindus can even fight back.


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## freshseasons (Jan 13, 2014)

All this hatred in this world have me so worried.

  India needs to take tough stand on this. But the present government being Congress led UPA cannot expect much as they will not want to alienate other groups..

  While humanity gets slaughtered people would still be bothered with anything other than fill coffers.


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## sujoyp (Jan 13, 2014)

Its better not to participate into matter of other country ....or it will be big trouble if all muslim county try to interfere in muslim issues of India ....and there are more then 20% muslim in India

Then china will fight for buddhism issues and USA will fight for christian issues ....Big big trouble ahead 

We have seen the Srilanka tamil fight.


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## Anorion (Jan 13, 2014)

^sense


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## funskar (Jan 14, 2014)

sujoyp said:


> Its better not to participate into matter of other country ....or it will be big trouble if all muslim county try to interfere in muslim issues of India ....and there are more then 20% muslim in India
> 
> Then china will fight for buddhism issues and USA will fight for christian issues ....Big big trouble ahead
> 
> We have seen the Srilanka tamil fight.



+1 ..

but muslims protested in india for killing of muslims in israel etc


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## Desmond (Jan 15, 2014)

They have every right to protest, but it is futile.


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## sujoyp (Jan 15, 2014)

Protest is fine for day or two...like our govt say sonia gandhi is upset and manmohan singh is very angry and blah blah ...but interfering by taking some social , milletary or political action can be dangerous


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## Desmond (Jan 15, 2014)

sujoyp said:


> Protest is fine for day or two...like our govt say sonia gandhi is upset and manmohan singh is very angry and blah blah ...but interfering by taking some social , milletary or political action can be dangerous



That's ridiculous and not acceptable. I mean, its not worth disrupting your own country's affairs over the atrocities faced by your religious community abroad. It is a different matter if such atrocities are carried out in our own country, though still not acceptable it is understandable because our government itself has not taken adequate steps in enforcing law and order or taken steps in curbing such atrocities. 

However, disrupting affairs here over atrocities elsewhere does not accomplish anything.


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## Nanducob (Jan 15, 2014)

Dont know what to post here but the O.P sure has a knack in finding these kind of news


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## Skyh3ck (Jan 15, 2014)

no matter what country, the places Muslims are in Majority, minority always suffer,

 i am not against them but its reality, if one Muslim man is hurt by a non muslim, it creates lots of problem in the world, however more number of muslims are being killed by muslims only in the middle east, look at Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Pakistan and many muslim country, there is no peace.

there is no solution for this, even Europe and USA also now don't wont to interfere with them

watch this video, 


[YOUTUBE]5eoHMicqnz8[/YOUTUBE]


if any society wish to prosper and survive , they should change as per the time, its not the 7th century anymore, and the change will not come from outside, it will come from the people of the said community only, they have to raise up and say that "THIS THING IS WRONG AND OUTDATED, AND WE HAVE TO CHANGE IT AS PER THE CURRENT TIME"

but i dont see that happening soon


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## kaz (Jan 15, 2014)

Skyh3ck said:


> no matter what country, the places Muslims are in Majority, minority always suffer


I don't know why you think so....Many Indians (Hindus and Tamilans too be exact) are working peacefully in the Gulfs.



> i am not against them but its reality, if one Muslim man is hurt by a non muslim, it creates lots of problem in the world,


When Muslims were killed in Myanmar no muslim country came forward  So its clear that there is no brotherhood among muslims rather they are just interested in creating scene when they get a chance. myanmar muslims



> however more number of muslims are being killed by muslims only in the middle east, look at Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Pakistan and many muslim country, there is no peace.


What about Dubai, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman?



> there is no solution for this, even Europe and USA also now don't wont to interfere with them


May be they have got with what they want....OIL....Providing army in Kuwait and taking away most of the Crude is what they want from all other nations.




> if any society wish to prosper and survive , they should change as per the time, its not the 7th century anymore, and the change will not come from outside, it will come from the people of the said community only, they have to raise up and say that "THIS THING IS WRONG AND OUTDATED, AND WE HAVE TO CHANGE IT AS PER THE CURRENT TIME"
> 
> but i dont see that happening soon


Just for few nations you can't blame all......



> watch this video,
> [YOUTUBE]5eoHMicqnz8[/YOUTUBE]


This guy is crazy....I don't know what kind of people are following this psycho.... My grandfather told me "if someone hits you, even when its not your mistake warn him 3times before you give him back" Thats what Islam taught him....And no where its told to put a knife on one's neck and ask them to convert to Islam.... Although I am not a mullah and I don't know what Jihad actually means but I think its time now to explore the truth.....

All these violence against other religion and tribe is a shame on the county's name. And god knows who is benefited from all these nonsense? I think only political parties...


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## sujoyp (Jan 15, 2014)

Its always politics behind religious hatered...common man just want to fulfill there needs thats all..

If its problem in bangladesh thats cause the party in power is said to be pro india and people of bangladesh term it as pro hindu nation ...soo the opposition wants to kill hindus to show that they are against india and pro muslim...something of this sort...

I was there for past 1.5 years and know whats happening there 


you would laugh at this ....a bangladeshi educated (graduate) girl asked me once "do muslims too live in your country " and I said my country have more muslims then your country ...and they are indians and we dont fight all year like your country...we live in peace ...they are in police, army,politics and not seen as B-grade citizens like they treat hindus in bangladesh


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## kaz (Jan 15, 2014)

+1 
All we can do is pray for those narrow minded people... May almighty show them the right path


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## dude1 (Jan 17, 2014)

Skyh3ck said:


> no matter what country, the places Muslims are in Majority, minority always suffer,
> 
> i am not against them but its reality, if one Muslim man is hurt by a non muslim, it creates lots of problem in the world, however more number of muslims are being killed by muslims only in the middle east, look at Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Pakistan and many muslim country, there is no peace.
> 
> ...



Agree... Even I am not against muslims. The fact that top 10 terrorists(Who are the world's 10 most dangerous terrorists? - CNN.com) are followers of muslim religion could be attributed to the fact that the muslim community still follows old obsolete laws in middle east(where most of them are based). The muslims in the rest of the world are much more peaceful(like in india, usa where the laws are relevant to time ). And the fact about majority and minority is that anywhere in the world, minorities are victims.


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## mediator (Jan 18, 2014)

Its funny how the mod of this forum had no other task then to sit, troll and delete the factual outpurings. Message was conveyed though.

Anyways,


			
				dude1 said:
			
		

> And the fact about majority and minority is that anywhere in the world, minorities are victims.


In this country, people make fun of their own so called gods and anyone who promotes Indian science called as religion a.k.a Hinduism, is by default seen as communal, anti-minority and people scared to discuss their so called 'faith' in front of muslims. Its even more funny, when 20% of the population in the second most populous country is seen as 'minority' and not jain,sikh,confucianist,jews,Iskonites who see themselves as apart from so called 'hinduism'. I don't even see how many of these have been classed as 'victims' consistently like a special category. 

Why is that there exist a special category which is always seen as a 'victim'? So called 'hinduis' or jains or buddhists or confucianists or many other 'isms' don't cry of being victimised. Genocide of Hindus in Bangladesh, Kashmir, Mughal era, buddhists is something which is beyond victimisation and comes under the category of ethnic cleansing. Other 'isms' stay and adapt to the local crowd. I dunno why there exist such a generalization in the first place -> "minority is that anywhere in the world, minorities are victims". And its even strange when no one wants to talk about the Kashmiri Pandits, who have become 'minority' in their own land. Any crocodile tears for them? Somewhere deep down, people will still refuse to talk about that at length! 

@dude1 - I'm not pointing fingers at you. Just talking generally!


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## dude1 (Jan 19, 2014)

mediator said:


> Its funny how the mod of this forum had no other task then to sit, troll and delete the factual outpurings. Message was conveyed though.
> 
> Anyways,
> 
> ...


    @Mediator me too! I am also talking in general when I say minority. Not just the muslim minority but any other minority in any other nation. If u would read my quotes correctly I am not at all justifying the "ethnic cleansing" thing. I hate it.
     In fact my comment about minority was about the bangladeshi incident *where hindus were a minority*. But the past is past and pointing the fingers at muslim rulers of the past to justify the actions of present is wrong.And about kashmiri pandits I dont know why they have _become_ a minority. But if it is due to the actions of the muslim fundamentalists then it is as condemnable. 
    Now the point where you mentioned different religions see that Jainism and sikhism are not some "immigrant" religion. Sikhs are to hindus what protestants are to catholics. Though they are not part of the hindu religion they ARE hindustani religions. Originated here. Of jews to speak i am not aware of an area in country Called "Jewish" area. What i mean is there is not a sizable population of jews in India. With them we(hindus) have no conflicting faith or history.
But here you go wrong- Iskon itself says that they are "a monotheistic tradition within the Vedic and Hindu cultural traditions". So no conflict. 
    But hindu muslim rivalry is old and fierce like christian and jew. Hence my point is that this has to stop somewhere. Tit for tat is bad in long term, thats all I am saying. There is no question sympathy , no crocodile tears.


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## mediator (Jan 19, 2014)

@Dude - Its not about Hindu or Muslims rivalry at all. Why is then Muslims are seen with suspicion in almost all parts of the world? There is jew-muslim rivalry in mid-east, christian-muslim rivalry in france, US, Britain, buddhist-muslim rivalry where Burma,Assam riots invoke a sense of 'brotherhood' in other parts of the world, triggering blasts in Buddhist temple in Bihar?

*www.facebook.com/burma.stop.killing.muslims
'The situation in Assam is worse than Gujarat in 2002' - Rediff.com India News

_O you who believe, take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends of each other. And whoever amongst you takes them for friends he is indeed one of them. Surely Allåh guides not the unjust people. (Quran 5.51) 

Fight those who believe not in Allåh, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which Allåh and His Messenger have forbidden, nor follow the Religion of Truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of s subjection (9.29) _

What if I do not believe in Allah, the Last day or acknowledge superiority to the believers? You may give a translation which does not speak this.

You may also research upon Quran verse - 8.39, 9.29, 9.5, 9.11, 9.56-57,2.193,3.83, Shahi Muslim - 1.33,19.4294 etc for the list is big. Its not about Hindu muslim rivalry at all.

Connect to this ->  *www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/atheists-face-death-in-13-muslim-countries/article1-1161005.aspx

If we go by "immigrant religion", then there are many immigrant "isms" whose followers live in India yet never talked about victimisation. I have specifically stated of ethnic cleansing in Bangladesh for a reason. The same pattern exists in Pakistan and many other Islamic nations where native tradition was destroyed starting from Iran itself e.g Ahura Mazda and slowly Egypt! 

If victimization was indeed a problem in India then from "a few traders and invaders" there population would never had increased to 20% compared to Hindu(Hindu, Sikhs etc) in Pakistan from more than 20% to 2% now and same in Bangladesh etc. If it was minority victimization, then there wouldn't be any Haj subsidy or religion based reservation in a secular nation or sections to give space to muslim law as well. Which other country entertains all this? Which Muslim country itself gives Haj subsidy? Do all of them give?

My point is about a generalization i.e Minorities are always  victimized!

Good discussion but... 


PS - Thanks to the troll mod, I had to write a few things again. Wish there were more broad minded administrators in Indian forums rather than the ones who see and post distorted version of Gita and laugh at Veda but have their hearts pumping 20000 gallons at a mere mention of Quran!


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## snap (Jan 19, 2014)

There was some database errors and the old backup was restored so most of the new posts are gone.

People view/interpret/believe/want what they want it to be.

is this relevant?



Spoiler



Self-verification theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## mediator (Jan 19, 2014)

Mea Culpa!


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## dude1 (Jan 19, 2014)

mediator said:


> Mea Culpa!



Yes you are mediator!
Also agree with most of what you are saying. People tend to stop discussion at a mere mention of quran. We should be proud to follow our own religion(not afraid to discuss it) at the same time respect other people following theirs. Religion is made for us. For our convenience. If u think over it it just is a lifestyle u choose to follow. And killing someone over their lifestyle is bad.


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## Skyh3ck (Jan 19, 2014)

If Muslim wants to survive in the modern world they need people like Tarek Fatah, Najam Sethi, Hassan Nissar, who speaks truth and modernising Islam...

[YOUTUBE]CMYWvIq5w0Q[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]qJeIIsGB_B8[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]Aj9zQhHMkk[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]QW3W8rUlR-U[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]NfZOMce7hik[/YOUTUBE]

watch this and every muslim must learn how to liver with others


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## Faun (Jan 19, 2014)

video tagging not working


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## Nanducob (Jan 19, 2014)

are the videos censored or something?


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## Skyh3ck (Jan 20, 2014)

Just go to YouTube and search for tarek Fatah. Hassan nisar. Mj Akbar. Najam sethi


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## ico (Jan 20, 2014)

mediator said:


> Its funny how the mod of this forum had no other task then to sit, troll and delete the factual outpurings. Message was conveyed though.


Since idiocy at both ends is the truth of the Kali Yuga. - "yeah, its funny how modern science can fail at times. Instead I should have chanted a mantra and vBulletin upgrade would have went fine. Old database wouldn't need to be reverted that way. Message was conveyed though."


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## mediator (Jan 20, 2014)

@Dude - IMO, the world should not get attached to any of it, but simply question all the available knowledge. Thats how the Indian knowledge got diversified from veda to Upanishads to Gita, Puranas, 8 schools of thought - Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisheshika, dvaita, advaita etc, Budddhist school of thought, mahavira's philosophy - all explaining and arriving at the ultimate truth of the undivided reality, undivided consciousness, shunyata or the infinite potential etc in their own way, seemingly contradicting at a lower level of understanding or intellect, but converging to the same vision of reality with their own paths.

Similarly, Abarahamic followers should have a spirit of questioning and start questioning the forbidden as their topmost priority, breaking chains of DOs and DONTs and transcending beyond the permission that they seek to do various things in life. It goes and grows beyond respect, to developing a primary understanding of the nature of things rather than as a borrowed knowledge being followed as a law.



PS - @MODS ...  Y U troll in my threads?

*s13.postimg.org/x3zsi8g0z/Alok_Nath_Jokes_and_Meme.jpg


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## ico (Jan 20, 2014)

I don't troll. I write riddles.


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## lm2k (Jan 20, 2014)

surah tauba in quran is the favourate target of almost every person 

infected with Islamophobia.
In order to understand it clearly we need to know that there 

existed a peace treaty between the rulers of mecca(at that time) 

and muslims. And the unbelivers of mecca broke that. It often taken 

out of context and quoted whenever and wherever as raw rules and 

then draw lines that islam preaches terrorism. First thing is we 

just cannot copy any incomplete line from it and then draw 

conclusion, but proper context must be considered. Surah tauba is 

like Bhagwat Gita . In Bhagwad Gita , arjun is not willing to kill 

his brothers just for the sake of chair, so there shree krishna 

instigates him to pick up the weapons and slaughter the kavravas, 

his brothers. To similar extent God commands the muslims to fight 

the opperessors (the pagans of mecca) since the pagans have broken 

the peace. they are given a time of 4 months either to compensate 

for the loss of the offence they had caused by aggreeing to the 

terms of muslims or fight similar to the great war of mahabharat.

"If one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum,grant it to him, so 

that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he 

can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge."[Al-

Qur’an 9:6]



5:32 Because of that, We ordained for the Children 
of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in 
retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in 
the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind,    
and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved 
the life of all mankind.  

If we read the complete surah , we find that the muslims are 

strictly commanded to spare the women,childern and those who are 

not armed against them. Merely quoting the incomplete verses about 

rules of war without is nonsense.

Also we see Baqarah, 2:191
“And fight in the cause of God those who have (initially) waged war 

against you, but do not transgress limits (by causing more damage 

to your enemy than the damage they initially caused you, thereby 

expanding the circle of war). Indeed, Allah loves not transgressors 

[190]. And slay them wherever you overtake them and expel them from 

where they have expelled you (a reference to Quraysh who for 14 

years had been expelling the Muslims from Mecca), for tumult and 

oppression (that Quraysh heavily incurred on you) are worse than 

killing; but fight them not at the Inviolable House of Worship, 

unless they (first) fight you there. If they were to fight you, 

then do not be reluctant to kill them. Such is the recompense of 

the disbelievers (in the sanctity of the Holy Shrine of Ka’ba). 

[191]”

many see these two verses as ground for Islam’s quest for peace. 

Such that even when Muslims were commanded to fight in self 

defense, they were instructed to practice war-morality: Do not 

start a fight. But fight in the cause of God those who initially 

fight you but do not transgress limits thereby expanding the circle 

of war. The word “limit” is interpreted by the majority of scholars 

as “limiting enemy’s loss only to their own.” Any more loss beyond 

that is considered transgression.

Thus, the verse teaches Muslims not to start hostility and to use 

hostility-stopping techniques if war ever started. Causing more 

damage to the enemy is an invitation to more violence. Furthermore, 

the Qur’an commands Muslims that if the opponents are inclined 

towards truce, they are to seek an end to hostilities. Allah said:

“But if the enemy inclined to peace, then incline to it.” Qur’an 

8:61.

8:39 And fight them until there is no more Fitnah, 
and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah alone.
But if they cease, then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of 
what they do.

Fitnah mentioned here means, until no Muslim is persecuted so that 

he abandons his religion. So i think it is not a crime to fight 

against the operessors.

3:83 Do they seek other than the religion of Allah, 
while to Him submitted all creatures in the heavens 
and the earth, willingly or unwillingly. And to Him 
shall they all be returned. 

God rebukes those who prefer a religion other 
than the religion that He sent His Books and 
Messengers with, which is the worship of Allah 
Alone without partners, to Whom,(submitted all creatures in the 
heavens and the earth), Willingly, or not.  

can anybody tell me religion where it encouraged to abandon 

swadharma?

Regarding religious tax that is ziziya, for a muslim in muslim 

state there was compulsory conscription, while for nonmuslims 

instead of compulsory conscription they need to pay tax. But for 

muslims Zakat (tax) was and is still compulsary inspite of military 

service to defend the state against foreign invaders. In some cases 

the nonmuslims formed armies and helped the state defence so ziziya 

was not taken from them and neither zakat.The amount of the ziziya 

was based upon the income and wealth and only applicable to healthy 

males capable of working. So whats wrong in it??




@kaz : we are trying to spread islamophobia here in the forum so 

that bjp gets more votes for killing the minorities. But now look 

what have you done!!!!!!!!

I want to ask some questions about Rama, why did he burn his wife 

alive, why he used unfair means(used the brother of ravan to reveal 

the secret) to defeat Ravan, why did he kill Shambuka, how did Rama 

die??


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## Skyh3ck (Jan 20, 2014)

listen this, why a there is no connection between Religion and a State

from great Scholar Hassan Nisar

[YOUTUBE]FdpK95jECR0[/YOUTUBE]


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## Anorion (Jan 21, 2014)

oh argument by videos


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## mediator (Jan 21, 2014)

@lm2k - Its easy to see where you quoted all this from and hence too predictable. Anyways,

Firstly, you need to understand that Islam is merely 1400 yrs old. You may refer Zoroastrian texts of Ahura-Mazda which predates Islam. Here's a few text from the same and if you understand sanskrit, you might even understand what it says.

PersianDNA™* [KHORDEH AVESTA] Niyayesh: Atash (Litany to Fire)

Secondly, a peace treaty between the rulers of mecca and muslims leads the following points to ponder. 
a) Rulers of Mecca -> A geographic connotation and not a religion
b) Pagans - The ones who question everything
b) Muslim/Islam -> A religion, where Allah cannot be questioned!

The verses that you yourself have quoted talk about spreading Islam { 8.39, 9.29, 9.5, 9.11, 9.56-57,2.193,3.83, Shahi Muslim - 1.33,19.4294 etc }.

So lets say, Muslims are trying to Islamize the whole world and I as an unbeliever protest that and do not believe in Allah, or the last day or pay acknowledgement of superiority, will you necessarily chop my limbs?

Obviously, if you fight me for not believing in Allah, then I'll have to fight you out of self-defense and my freedom of thought. Will this be seen as waging a war against Allah?
_
“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger [i.e., Muhammad], and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter. ( Quran 5.33)”_


_
Fight those who believe not in Allåh, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which Allåh and His Messenger have forbidden, nor follow the Religion of Truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of s subjection (9.29) _

For your clarification, Surah tauba is not even thousand miles near to Bhagvad-Geet, for it might suprise you that Hinduism is not even a religion and Bhagvad-Geet not a manual to tell if jews, christias are bad or someone tagged as hindu is good or Krishna is the best, meat of swine is forbidden or "food invoked the name of other name of God" (Quran 5.3). It goes beyond name, forms, shapes to knowing oneself through detachment which in very short is called as aatm-gyaan. Before even talking about Geeta, you need to apt yourself with the understanding of dharma (which is not religion). Injustice in the form of Draupadi vastra haran, poisoning of Bheem, Varnavrat and many more incidents lead to an unstable situation where Pandavas only wanted to live happily away from all this. They were repeatedly chased away by Kauravas and hence lead to a compromise where Pandavas were satisfied even if Kauravas gave them 5 villages. But Duryodhan didn't even want to give them an inch of land and wanted to destroy them out of pure jealously, insecurity and longing for the throne.

So no my friend, Arjun never fought for the throne, but for justice which included that which was deceitfully taken away from him/Pandavas. Also, Krishna never instigated him to kill Kauravas, but to fight, as kshatriya's dharma is to fight which may or may not include killing.

Coming back, here dharma includes righteousness, duty and not to spread a doctrine or religion or word of Krishna as in the case of word of Allah. In Mahabharat, Krishna tried to stop war before i.e karma based on dharma which idealizes to non-violence. But when all the doors were closed, he did his duty which was opposite to the earlier i.e karm based on dharma of a kshatriya. This is way different than the peace treaty between the rulers of Mecca and Muslims who chopped of limbs and fight just because a peace treaty has been broken. Again, here we are not talking of two nations breaking a peace treaty but rulers of mecca (geography) and Islam/muslims (religion). Further, your argument itself stresses on the fact that Islam does not respect the boundaries, but divides the world between believers/muslims and unbelievers/non-muslims, unleashes war just because a treaty is broken between a geography and religion. 

Next, there is no such thing like brotherhood or 'quam' amongst the pagans or as per the ancient Indian culture which sees the world as one family. Your argument that pagans of mecca broke the peace treaty and muslims were compelled to fight again connotes division of "us Vs them". FYI, one of the pandavas i.e Karna fought on the side of Kauravas and hence again this totally annhilates your argument of comparison to Mahabharat. Moreover, neither Kaurava nor Pandava refers to a religion or geography, but lineage, part of one family. Also, there is no concept of believer or non-believer, hindu or non-hindu as per Indian science and philosophy. Before you trains your guns, nastik is the one who has not yet questioned the Veda let alone understanding them. Astik, the one who has questioned, realized, verified and validated Veda to be a shruti or conforms to a shruti i,e the science of supreme consciousness, with his pinnacle of aatm-gyaan in the picture. 

Unknowingly, you have put this verse



> "If one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum,grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he
> can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge."[Al-Qur’an 9:6]



This again strengthens my point that Islam sees the word of Allah as the ultimate and belittles others who do not agree with it and calls them "men without knowledge". In contrast to this, since you mentioned Bhagvad-Geet, Krishna nowhere tells to worship someone called Krishna from a level of understanding of Islam, nor imposes it on Arjun to follow it where in the end of chapter 18 he simple says that this is his "opinion" and do as you wish to do!



_But the science of uniting the individual consciousness with the Ultimate Consciousness practiced by one with uncontrolled mind is difficult to obtain; thus it is My opinion that in this endeavor controlling the mind is the practical and appropriate means of achievement. (BG 6.36)

Thus the most confidential wisdom of all that is confidential has been described by me to you; deliberating fully on this; accordingly act as you wish. (BG 18.63)_


If you understand riddles, poetry, metaphors etc then you will also understand the meaning of "I/Me" in Gita which is why it is called as "Bhagavad-Geet" (The Divine Song). This same riddle exists in devi Purana, "that" in some Upanishads and "brahman" in other. The meaning is the same!





			
				lm2k said:
			
		

> 5:32 Because of that, We ordained for the Children
> of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in
> retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in
> the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind,
> ...


Here, what you have not stated specifically, is why Allah ordained Children of Israel not to kill anyone. Read from the earlier chapters, this again starts with the Islamization process where if anybody protests for not agreeing with Allah, should be killed. Verse 5.32 simply tells where Allah ordains the natural actions of a human being in case of an attack. Who is a "person" here? And obviously, nations can fight which may include killing if their security is at threat i.e Islamization in this case. The peace treaty between pagans of mecca and muslims itself is a contradiction to be looked at, because Islam at its core calls for spreading of Allah's word or Islamization. How can there be peace if we stare at all the verses of Quran which talk of Islamization? Who is oppressor, the one who disagrees or the one who forcefully imposes the word of Allah?

Verse 2.191 revolves around what I've said.




			
				lm2k said:
			
		

> 8:39 And fight them until there is no more Fitnah,
> and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah alone.
> But if they cease, then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of
> what they do.
> ...


Here you yourself have upholded my point. The above basically speaks to fight until there is no more muslim persecution or stress and "the religion (worship) will all be for Allah alone."






			
				lm2k said:
			
		

> 3:83 Do they seek other than the religion of Allah,
> while to Him submitted all creatures in the heavens
> and the earth, willingly or unwillingly. And to Him
> shall they all be returned.
> ...



Again, dharma is NOT religion. For a kshatriya, his dharma is different than that of a brahmin. But for your literal answer, here we go--

_Relinquishing all ideas of righteousness, surrender unto Me exclusively; I will deliver you from all sinful reactions, do not despair. (BG 18.66)
_
The above talks of "sarva-dharmān parityajya" i.e abandoning all varieties of dharma and to seek the highest, the undivided reality, the shunyata, or the infinite potential or the "sat" (18.20) from which all the "lower dharma" themselves purify. For e.g Karna was a very dharmic guy, but from a high-level of reality, he sided with adharma and hence flew in the wave of adharma. Same goes for Bhishma, Drona, Kripa etc who were the greatest of the kashitriyas and sages. If they abandon, their attachment, and seek the highest truth, they could have sided with truth. But one was bound by an oath, while one was indebted with friendship.

This is similar in the case your brother is found guilty of a crime and you start defending him instead looking objectively. You may be a dharmic guy, but a small attachment can leave you flowing in the wave of adharma.


Regarding, smritis 
Sita’s Agnipariksha in Ramayan


For other question of yours you need to understand the concept of avatar. Ram was just a normal human, who took the help of vanar-sena, Agastya-Rishi for getting divine weapons, Hanuman for fetching Sanjeevini and Vibhishan who aided him in his war against Ravan.

The Indian philosophy is vast. You need to decondition, yourself from that abrahamic template you've been carrying where you take geography and religion on equal sense of context and then use "lineage, philosophy and science of consciousness" to hold disconnected analogies. 

You yourself have confirmed more than half of what I have stated. Its no use to discuss more, for further inflow of Quranic verses is only going to strenghten my case.


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## ico (Jan 21, 2014)

^ where are vanar-sena and 'divine' weapons now?


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## snap (Jan 21, 2014)

snap said:


> People view/interpret/believe/want what they want it to be.
> 
> is this relevant?
> 
> ...



^this



			
				A person said:
			
		

> My best guess as to what will probably be said next:
> No, you do not understand the meta-relativistic cognitive understanding of psuedo-quantum parallel entanglements that manifest as the inherent phenomena of neuronal processing vis-a-vis the hyper-consciousness of sentience. Scientists have shown that the underlying matrices of unilateral sixth-dimensional omni-strings are vibrating in sympathetic connections with the oscillating wave function that is the soul's chakra output, correlating directly with the chi expulsion of each person's tantric whosiwhatits, and culminating with the somethingorother of quantumhypermetaprefixaffixsuffixfractalmathwordssciencejargontechnobabble. So you see, that's why whatever bullshit I'm arguing in favor of is completely true.


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## Desmond (Jan 21, 2014)

What is the point of comparing religions? All religions are a tribal fetish or sorts. You don't really need it to live your life and unscrupulous individuals only use it for profit by taking advantage of those who believe or as justification to carry out atrocities against those of other religions. Terrorism is carried out by such unscrupulous individuals for pleasure or for profit, pick one.


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## sujoyp (Jan 21, 2014)

DeSmOnD dAvId said:


> What is the point of comparing religions? All religions are a tribal fetish or sorts. You don't really need it to live your life and unscrupulous individuals only use it for profit by taking advantage of those who believe or as justification to carry out atrocities against those of other religions. Terrorism is carried out by such unscrupulous individuals for pleasure or for profit, pick one.



100% Agree  
Now days all religious gurus are just making money in the name of religion...and attached to some political person to gain power and suppress those who does not believe them...

You can try that easily...just throw a comment about a reknown person like asaram bapu or any muslim mulla and I am sure next day some goons from a political party will beat you in the name of religion...


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## lm2k (Jan 21, 2014)

It is really amazing to see how you reacted to my reply, out of all 

verses i tried to explain ,you read only those words that you 

wanted to, you inteerperted only what you meant and compiled a 

theory that you always fantasize.
It seems that you only see words like fight, kill and highlight 

them for drawing the conclusions you want. 

"Firstly, you need to understand that Islam is merely 1400 yrs old"
wrong but it is the oldest religion that was finished merely 1400 yrs ago, these include the revisions of various prophets like Zoroaster, Moses ,Jesus Christ and many more.

1- pagan here means- a idolater of mecca/ arabian penensula not 

ones who question everything but those who refused to believe no 

matter how they were explained and what they saw thus they were 

able to see but were still blind, they were able to here but were 

deaf and speak everything except truth thus dumb for truth.

"b) Muslim/Islam -> A religion, where Allah cannot be questioned!" 

wrong! Most Hadis are all there because some of the apostle 

questioned something to messenger and got an answer.

a) Rulers of Mecca -> A geographic connotation and not a religion
   Wrong. Rulers of mecca- a powerful tribe that executes/punishes  

  muslims.

"So lets say, Muslims are trying to Islamize the whole world and I 

as an unbeliever protest that and do not believe in Allah, or the 

last day or pay acknowledgement of superiority, will you 

necessarily chop my limbs?

Obviously, if you fight me for not believing in Allah, then I'll 

have to fight you out of self-defense and my freedom of thought. 

Will this be seen as waging a war against Allah?"

so lets say muslims are trying to preach islam and you reject then
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear 

from error”
[Al-Qur’an 2:256]

but if you arrange riots and go on killing several innocent people 

then
“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His 

Messenger [i.e., Muhammad], and strive with might and main for 

mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the 

cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from 

the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy 

punishment is theirs in the Hereafter. ( Quran 5.33)”

where "mischief" means crimes(stated aove the verse 5.33). In india 

i think the punishment for this is lifetime improsonment.

Fight those who believe not in Allåh, nor in the Last Day, nor 

forbid that which Allåh and His Messenger have forbidden, nor 

follow the Religion of Truth, out of those who have been given the 

Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and 

they are in a state of s subjection (9.29) 

I explained this earlier in my post but for you once more 
Regarding religious tax that is ziziya, for a muslim in muslim 

state there was compulsory conscription, while for nonmuslims 

instead of compulsory conscription they need to pay tax. But for 

muslims Zakat (tax) was and is still compulsary inspite of military 

service to defend the state against foreign invaders. In some cases 

the nonmuslims formed armies and helped the state defence so ziziya 

was not taken from them and neither zakat.The amount of the ziziya 

was based upon the income and wealth and only applicable to healthy 

males capable of working. So whats wrong in it??


verse 8.39 talk about fighting operession being done, just like the 

kavravas operessed the pandavas, still pandavas did not agitate 

against them but when the pandavas were tormented further then they 

fought back. SO fight until you are not punished for worshipping 

the GOD and nobody else(which is the birth right of every human).


verses 9.xx were reaveled in the battlefield instructing  

understrength,outnumbered and underarmed muslim people to fight 

those who did unjustice to you and gave various torments .But 

further now they are still commanded to look for peace from the 

enemy and those who want peace it is commanded to not only spare 

them but also to escort them secure stated in 9.6 .But still you 

only see "they are men without knowledge"  here knowledge implies 

the understanding or meaning of what atrocites the pagans comitted 

angainst the believers. 

further 5.32 : God legistated that if any human kills other for no 

reason it is as if he had killed the whole of the human race else 

if he saves a life it is like he saved the whole human race, as you 

said understanding the metaphor, try to understand what has been 

said here it is to honour the life be it of a believer or not 

instead of fantasizing your fear of islamization and then drawing 

lines to where you wantt.

comming back to the peace treaty, we need to understand the 

background of the events that happened before it. The pagans of 

mecca had torchored the believers to their extents which included 

contant raiding on their tribes, looting their houses, raping their 

women , and many things your party people do during riots. Still 

the pagans were given a peace treaty , this still shows the one 

sided efforts for peace but the treaty was still broken by the 

pagans by continuing their acts. So now just like the pandavas the 

muslims wage war that too after providing adequate time for 

thinking and making peace again. It is not just mearely the peace 

treaty that was broken. Further the action of the muslims is 

extremely restrained. Like you see in riots or a terriost attack 

where the agressor just runs around killling innocent people , the 

muslms are commanded to spare the noncombatants and further secure 

those who seek peace.


2:191 refer to my previous post , remove yoyr black cap and read it 

properly. just not pick up the word kill/ fight and start dancing, 

take the meaning it makes in there.

swadharma means excatly as you stated but you forgot to add 

worshipping God and respecting the great persons.

you understand the suffering of the pandavas and vastra haran of one lady  named Draupadi ,but you dont see the sufferings of the thousands of follower and their wives, children and just they waged war against injust being done you began to take meanings out of context everywhere ever you want.


All this and i have still not stated any thing from manusmriti about how shudras must be treated if they hurt a person of upper cast.


Lastly mediator please do me a favour, please post what hindu literature tells about hating and spreading the hatred like you are doing here.

@DeSmOnD dAvId ,@sujoyp
but why spread hatred about others.


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## Skyh3ck (Jan 21, 2014)

Religion is not good for modern civilised world. The real place of religion is behind closed doors of temple. Mosque and churches. Every religion teaches humanity but humanity does not teach or force religion.. That's a fact. And we don't need bullets and bombs to destroy the world. Religion itself doing it. Look what those people did in UK beheading a British soldier in day light. Its time to stop advocating and supporting radicals and beheaders who keep looking for Kafirs and infidels.


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## Desmond (Jan 21, 2014)

I will quote my self from elsewhere in this forum 

"Saying that religion causes wars is like saying that guns kill people."

We know that guns don't kill, people do. Therefore, I don't blame religion, but I blame the people/followers.

But then again, a gun in the hands of a madman will never amount to anything good.


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## snap (Jan 22, 2014)

sheesh so much hypocrisy..


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## Anorion (Jan 22, 2014)

mediator said:


> @lm2k - Its getting boring now, but still ....





yeh the guns argument makes sense. gonna try and use some of the guns dont kill people argument in terms of religion

religion is fun. no one will tell you this in religious gatherings, they will take it all seriously, but when it comes down to it, religion is just fun. they may say certain kinds of religions are bad and their only use is for killing people, but it's not what actually people who have fun with religion use it for. maybe we make a kick-ass omelette with religion, or a water pump in an emergency. every day people who have fun with religion invent new uses for it.
religion is pretty popular in a lot of countries. even in countries where there is no high homicide rate, or lots of violent crime, people still have a lot of religion, and use it in a safe, responsible manner. there is no realistic correlation between religion and violent crime. 
the ads for selling religion have nothing to do with the consumers of religion. 
people who use religion regularly best understand the risks of dealing with religion and can find numerous ways to give some meaningful contribution to the world, even with using the religion


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## ico (Jan 22, 2014)

Please avoid posts like "and many things your party people do during riots" or "your brainwashing done by X". Don't need potshots.

Agniveer explains Manusmiriti very well. But that doesn't change the history of what happened overtime. Those who suffered and identify themselves with a particular group or something will continue to hate it. Valid for every case. And then we have another set of people identifying themselves with another group and living in a false sense of superiority complex!

Result of all this nonsense will be movies like this: *Shudra: The Rising - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia* (I haven't watched the movie but the summary in the Wiki is ... Dunno what the director was smoking when he made the movie. Aryan Invasion Theory nonsense.)


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## mediator (Jan 22, 2014)

^Well Said!


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## Raaabo (Jan 26, 2014)

@mediator: Bye! This is not a forum made for bigots to come and take potshots at those they hate as you do. Good riddance too!


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## Darth Vader (Jan 26, 2014)

DeSmOnD dAvId said:


> I will quote my self from elsewhere in this forum
> 
> "Saying that religion causes wars is like saying that guns kill people."
> 
> ...



Your analogy is very weak.

Gun is an Object and Religion is a set of instructions(crazy) that instruct people to believe in it. Atrocities and cruelty are justified in religion. So.....
*With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.*

On the other hand Guns are Technological advancement which has no Gun User manual to tell you when to use them,but religion does.


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## Desmond (Jan 26, 2014)

Yes, but people could use better judgement. Unless they are hopelessly brainwashed, any sane person would know the difference between right and wrong and no tolerant person would engage in any act of violence with a person of another community.


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