# Reasons for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.



## aryayush (Nov 5, 2006)

Hello!
I couldn't find any. Linux advocates give a million reasons for Windows users to make the switch. Some of them are very true, some not so much. But, in general, it has become the notion nowadays that Linux is, indeed, a better platform than Windows. Windows enthusiasts will vehemently deny it, and I do too, and Linux users whole heartly support the notion.
Anyway, what I would like to know is what are the reasons, if any, that make Linux (any single distribution - not all of them combined) a better choice than Apple's Mac OS X Tiger (and Leopard). I have used Ubuntu 6.06 LTS and OpenSUSE Linux 10.1. Both of them were very good, at least much better than I had expected. But (there's always a but!) I could not see anything that would want me to ditch OS X and use Linux full time. I am all for experimenting and I always try to get hold of beta versions of anything (and I just love wasting bandwidth). So I wouldn't mind trying a few more Linux distros (in fact, Fedore Core 6 "Zod" is being downloaded as I type).
I invite all Linux users and open source fans to post the advantages they think that Linux users enjoy over the Macintosh and it might really help me discover some great new Linux specific features that I am missing on the Macintosh.
However, I would like to put a stop to two very invalid arguments right here. the first is that Linux is free and the Mac is very expensive. We are talking about a person who has already bought a Mac making the switch to Linux, so the argument really has no value anyway. Besides, we are only taking about the software and it's features here. The second one is that Linux makes a better server. As we are talking about end user experience of a normal home user here, servers should not raise their heads in this thread. It is my request that you please don't bring the above two aspects into the discussion.
Please do start! 

P.S. - I posted this in the 'Fight Club' section because I am sure this will eventually turn into a 'Mac vs. Linux' debate and is things are bound to get heated up. Moderators may, however, wish to move it to 'Open Source' if they have confidence on the temperament of the forum members here!


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## mediator (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Windows.*



			
				aryaush said:
			
		

> However, I would like to put a stop to two very invalid arguments right here. the first is that *Linux is free and the Mac is very expensive*. We are talking about a person who has already bought a Mac making the switch to Linux, so the argument really has no value anyway.


I know argument is of no value, but the highlighted part is a strong reason n u r trying to suppress it before the talk? Its like requesting the people not to talk on the main advantages! Its not the only, but certainly one of the main advantages.



			
				aryaush said:
			
		

> The second one is that Linux makes a better server.


U r trying to supress another advantage? 
U want people to talk on something in which u think Mac is better than Linux?

U have posted it in fight club and u want people to talk on a small section of the main topic? Why don't u launch a full fledged debate?? 

I really dunno how good Mac is nor can I compare the end/normal user's experience and many won't be able to either coz only a few people here have used it And in a debate the person shud have experience on both the platforms! But one thing's for sure, the Open Source community is rising very very fast! Alteast Thats what I have noticed in mah college n here! And with such increasing community support, Linux is really gonna be the perfection of tommorrow!


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## aryayush (Nov 6, 2006)

This is not intended to be a Mac vs. Linux discussion. I just wanted to know that if Mac and Linux were both free, which one should a home user opt for? Obviously, a person needs a machine to run an operating system and you don't get the hardware to run Linux for free. Now, if a person has opted to buy a MacBook instead of laptops from other companies, is there any reason for him to give Linux a try? I just wanted to know that. So, obviously, the price and server capabilities of Linux do not play into the discussion at all. I repeat that it is NOT a Mac vs. Linux thread (and I won't start a full-fledged debate on that topic because I know little to nothing about Linux and there are only two Mac users here compared to the tens of Linux enthusiasts).


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## mehulved (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Windows.*

Well I haven't used Mac but I don't think there's a central repository where you can access all or atleast most of the softwares? Like apt, yum, smart, ports in Linux and BSD's. Yeah they evolved out of the need for a package manager but still a central place for all the softwares you need is really good IMO.
Then for many people, it is really essential to know the source code of the software you use, that is the case in any open source OS but not in OS X.
Then compiling a kernel has really nice advantage performance wise. It was previously possible with a bit of help from Darwin project but it's not so possible now AFAIK. But, well these things are required by a small minority of people not a huge majority.
Then, it's customisation of the overall OS, now that's possible in linux distros like gentoo, LFS and all. But, no proprietory OS allow that.
And anyways there are a lot of open source softwares used by apple like cups for printing, konqueror engine for safari, apache is the inbuilt fileserver in Mac OS X. Both OS'es have different users with different needs. And maybe andy is the person who can be more helpful here cos AFAIK he's the only person who's used both OS'es extensively at home and all 3 if you count windows. He still needs to flirt around with windows everyday


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## aryayush (Nov 6, 2006)

tech_your_future said:
			
		

> Well I haven't used Mac but I don't think there's a central repository where you can access all or atleast most of the softwares? Like apt, yum, smart, ports in Linux and BSD's. Yeah they evolved out of the need for a package manager but still a central place for all the softwares you need is really good IMO.


There is a central location for all applications and it is called 'Applications'.



			
				tech_your_future said:
			
		

> Then for many people, it is really essential to know the source code of the software you use, that is the case in any open source OS but not in OS X.


Not for me, not for most home users (a person who doesn't know much programming anyway).



			
				tech_your_future said:
			
		

> Then compiling a kernel has really nice advantage performance wise. It was previously possible with a bit of help from Darwin project but it's not so possible now AFAIK. But, well these things are required by a small minority of people not a huge majority.


Not for home users again.



			
				tech_your_future said:
			
		

> Then, it's customisation of the overall OS, now that's possible in linux distros like gentoo, LFS and all. But, no proprietory OS allow that.


You might have a point there but I know of many people who complain that Gentoo has a huge number of very geeky options and is is almost unusable for a simple user. And OS X does offer a horde of customisations options. You can write your own AppleScripts or download them from the vast repository at Apple's website, tinker directly with Terminal or use Automator for creating automated workflows. Then there are a whole lot of applications out there that allow you to customise virtually every part of your operating system.



			
				tech_your_future said:
			
		

> And anyways there are a lot of open source softwares used by apple like cups for printing, konqueror engine for safari, apache is the inbuilt fileserver in Mac OS X.


And your point is?



			
				tech_your_future said:
			
		

> Both OS'es have different users with different needs.


I completely agree with you. However, I was always fiddling around with operating systems when I used Windows and I found some unique features in Linux distros that made me boot into them often. Then I bought the Macintosh and discovered this superb platform with a multitude of better features than Windows. However, I still installed OpenSUSE 10.1 to try it out and when it was complete, I launched it and then sat staring at the desktop. What do I do now? I could count many features that my Mac had and SUSE did not but a little bit of browsing around had me convinced that there wasn't a single reason for me to use SUSE except for novelty. And that is why I started this thread.



			
				tech_your_future said:
			
		

> And maybe andy is the person who can be more helpful here cos AFAIK he's the only person who's used both OS'es extensively at home and all 3 if you count windows. He still needs to flirt around with windows everyday


That's great. Hope he shows up ASAP!


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## mehulved (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Windows.*



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> There is a central location for all applications and it is called 'Applications'.


I am not talking of central location where all the downloaded applications are stored. I am talking about a central location from where you can download all the applications.


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## mail2and (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Windows.*

I've used all 3 OSes. My favourite is Slackware(and its variants). No other OS runs so well on low system resources as Slackware does(Yeah, I know it's a distro).

Around 1.5 years ago, my computer was about to give in, and I started looking at different options. I had used OS X before but for a very brief period of time.

I looked at the Mac Mini at a dealer's place, and I decided that it'll be my next computer. I'm a person who values design as much as I value comp. features and specifications. For my use, even a P3 500 MHZ is more than enough(I've never played games in life. Besides, I'm not a 5 yr old kid). 

After I bought my Mini and started using OS X on a more regular basis, I understood why OS X was rated so highly. I can say that I hadn't experienced true multi-tasking before.

Another aspect of OS X that I loved was the effective management of screen real estate. The top menu bar is dynamic i.e. it will change the options to the application in focus. This saves vertical screen space. Besides, having a menu bar in each application is plain ugly and inefficient.

The Dock is also a more effficient way of launching applications. There is no 'Start/Programs' menu in OS X. However, starting with Tiger(launched 1.5 yrs ago), OS X offers Spotlight(instant search). Press Command+Space and type the name of the app, and press enter. This takes lesser time in launching apps than it takes in the conventional 'Start/Programs' method. Most people use max 20 apps, and you can keep all of them on the dock itself.

Networking in OS X was a dream, too. When my cousin came around, I shared my PPPoE connection with him via Wi-fi. No setups, no configuration. The OS recognized his laptop, I clicked on 'share' and Bang! I was sharing internet with him in a matter of minutes. I call it the 1-2-3 method. No workgroups, no configuration, no 'network wizards'.

*img157.imageshack.us/img157/8797/picture21ea8.jpg

Besides, you can compile and run most of the linux apps on OS X.

I'd again like to mention the existence of small, free apps on OS X. They're amazing. Examples include MacTheRipper, Adium, Burn, Cog, OnyX, Growl, Quicksilver(My fav application), Max, Menuet, Camino, Seashore etc. 

OS X has had in-built system wide spell checker since ages. So, no matter whether you're chatting on yahoo, surfing on Adium, writing a doc on NeoOffice/ MS Office, the spell checker will check for save you the blushes!

Another interesting feature in Cocoa apps is horizontal scrolling. Click on shift and scroll normally. You'd be scrolling horizontally. So need no to click and drag those irritating horizontal scroll bars.

Safari, Camino and other OS X apps can auto-resize as per the dimensions of the page. No 'maximise, minimize' kind of thing.

Suppose, you're writing stuff for your project. You've got 5-6 apps open, and you need see a couple of them side by side. Expose comes in to your rescue here. Click on the middle mouse button and bang! Have a look.

*img215.imageshack.us/img215/9038/picture23cu6.th.jpg

Also, I like most ppl on OS X, don't maximise the window while browsing. It seemed strange at start, but now I can't surf with a window maximised.

I like the in-built pdf viewer, too. In short, the whole computing experience is nice and clean. And at last, ze eye candy 

*img107.imageshack.us/img107/729/picture27es9.th.jpg


However, OS X has its shortcomings, too. Finder is not as good as Konqueror is. It needs a whole new write-up. Java apps are not as responsive as they are on Windows. Also, OS X can't play DRM'ed WMA files. Though, I put the blame of the last thing on MS for not releasing an update to their WMP software for OS X.

I'll post more stuff as it comes to my mind. Till now, this discussion was mature and nice. Wait for the trolls. Then, it'll be time to lock the thread.


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## busyanuj (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Windows.*

gaming can be the major factor for home users (essentially: gamers). choice of games available for mac is generally much much less as compared to the ones available for windows.

other than that, there'll always be many alternatives to windows softwares in linux as well as mac.


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## mail2and (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Windows.*



			
				busyanuj said:
			
		

> other than that, there'll always be many alternatives to windows softwares in linux as well as mac.



And the other way around?


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## busyanuj (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Windows.*



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> And the other way around?



oh andy ! never worry about that. if mac has the famous graphics, Microsoft's  *originally* showing it in Vista as Aero+other changes  

plus, there are a variety of themes and visual styles to give you the "mac feel" on windows 


...that's why i say, windows rox


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## mail2and (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Windows.*



			
				busyanuj said:
			
		

> oh andy ! never worry about that. if mac has the famous graphics, Microsoft's  *originally* showing it in Vista as Aero+other changes
> 
> plus, there are a variety of themes and visual styles to give you the "mac feel" on windows
> 
> ...



I meant software, not themes.


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## busyanuj (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Windows.*



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> I meant software, not themes.



haven't used a mac, so i got nothing to say on that one.


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## blackpearl (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Windows.*

*Mac, Linux and Windows are like cars.*

The Windows Car cost a lot but easy to learn. Accessories also cost money and the car may occassionaly give trouble, but with it you can drive over 90% of the roads.

The Linux Car is Free and comes with a 10,000 page manual on "How to drive", without which you won't be able to steer even the driving wheel. With approximately 5 yrs of practice you can become a good driver and throw the manual out of the window. The Linux Car however runs in only 9% of the roads.

The Mac Car is the costliest, and easiest to drive too. Owing this car and buying accessories can lead you to bankruptcy. This car is the sleekest of all the 3, but it runs in less than 1% of the roads.

MORAL: If you like travelling, get Windows.


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## rakeshishere (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Windows.*



			
				blackpearl said:
			
		

> *Mac, Linux and Windows are like cars.*
> 
> The Windows Car cost a lot but easy to learn. Accessories also cost money and the car may occassionaly give trouble, but with it you can drive over 90% of the roads.
> 
> ...



Nice Explaination But a Doubt:What if the Roads are worse like the Indian Roads


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## blackpearl (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Windows.*



			
				rakeshishere said:
			
		

> Nice Explaination But a Doubt:What if the Roads are worse like the Indian Roads



If you want to see the world, you have to take some pain


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## mediator (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Windows.*

@blackpearl : U still living in ancient era?



			
				blackpearl said:
			
		

> The Windows Car cost a lot but easy to learn. Accessories also cost money and the car may *occassionaly* give trouble, but with it you can drive over 90% of the roads.


Occassionaly? The car gives trouble wheneva u need to drive the car fast with full load and wanna reach the destination in time! The car can't be used even to drive 5 kms when its new. the company releases the spare parts and service packs, only then it can be run 100 kms, but then also "occasionally" gives problems. Also the car is armourless and has fragile wheels u need to install 3rd party armour and maintain it regularly (defragmentation,virus,spyware scans) ! Wheneva the company announces the next upgraded car it talks so much big, but when released it leaves its customer demoralised with only few of so many features talked about!

When the car is new u have to install its drivers,softwares explicitly,service packs(have to wait for that) and make it complete. That takes u like 2 days almost leaving u with dark circles on ur eyes!

Also u can't never trust that car, to run even 5 kms! Its performance also degrades when run quite a lot (fragmentation). To run windows car u need to grasp the steering wheel tightly and keep ur eyes straight on the roads be cautios at every turn n whereva u go. Since u don't have manuals regarding its source (closed source) u can neva repair that car urself when the car is down and stuck on a highway! Wait for one week or one month, sleep on the footpath, get frustrated n catch dengue before u get help!!



			
				blackpearl said:
			
		

> The Linux Car is Free and comes with a 10,000 page manual on "How to drive", without which you won't be able to steer even the driving wheel. With approximately 5 yrs of practice you can become a good driver and throw the manual out of the window. The Linux Car however runs in only 9% of the roads.


Its free, fully armoured and u can always trust ur car to drive around the world without any degradation in performance!!!!! Today the car has evolved a lot and is as easy as to run windows car!
Since the source is known u can repair it wheneva u want n that too urself, if it "eva" gets corrupt! Its well known that the linux car has a very low probability of getting corrupt! Even ur kid can drive it freely n be safe! If the kid meets with an accident, the armour and the engine is soooo strong that kid wont be hurt anyhow! The driving wheel is very easy to steer with just a fingertip! 
Today the linux car runs almost on every road and u dont need any experience to run it! 
There are 2 types of linux cars : free n propreitary
In Free ones, u need to instal some dependencies and 5-6 new components to make it complete and it takes u like 1-2 hrs!
Propreitary ones are complete, just buy them and drive at full speed!


Linux cars are like army tanks and windows cars are like auto wheelers. WHen they collide then its well known that windows cars will gets crushed easily!

Linux cars have a lotta other advantages, but the page is too small for that to decribe!



			
				blackpearl said:
			
		

> The Mac Car is the costliest, and easiest to drive too. Owing this car and buying accessories can lead you to bankruptcy. This car is the sleekest of all the 3, but it runs in less than 1% of the roads.


Then comes Mac cars! They r not free. What I have learnt, that they r much better in terms of security,stabilty n service than windows cars. 

Given all that, even if this car is costly then also the customer will be thrilled by it and wud always want to buy it if he is given an option bet. windows and mac car resting side by side!

Linux car has a huge community support which is rising every single second! Since the majority of world is poor, this car is excellent for those poor people. Since the car is free n looks of this car is as good as windows, (in my opinion even better) it really thrills every one!

It makes the users especially of windows cars (windows fanboys) => jealous n mentally retards them. They then make ignorant and absurd statements with strong sarcasm in their statements n leaves users of linux and mac cars laughing at their schizophrenia  and mental retardness!

Some windows car users get enlightened by other cars, but some windows car users become fanboys which degrades their thinking n leaves the world laughing at them! They keep on making absurd statements everywhere they go and make a mockery of themselves! 



Its upto u to chose ur car!


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## kumarmohit (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Windows.*



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> @blackpearl : U still living in ancient era?
> 
> 
> Occassionaly? The car gives trouble wheneva u need to drive the car fast with full load and wanna reach the destination in time! The car can't be used even to drive 5 kms when its new. the company releases the spare parts and service packs, only then it can be run 100 kms, but then also "occasionally" gives problems. Also the car is armourless and has fragile wheels u need to install 3rd party armour and maintain it regularly (defragmentation,virus,spyware scans) ! Wheneva the company announces the next upgraded car it talks so much big, but when released it leaves its customer demoralised with only few of so many features talked about!
> ...



*LOL*

Off goes the Linux bomb . Come on ppl this is a Windows vs Mac OS thread. Not here puhleez.


Anyway the only reason I think of switching from Mac OS to Windows is "Sheer Stupidity"


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## aryayush (Nov 6, 2006)

kumarmohit said:
			
		

> *LOL*
> 
> Off goes the Linux bomb . Come on ppl this is a Windows vs Mac OS thread. Not here puhleez.


No, it is not.
This thread is titled 'Reasons for a Mac user to make the switch to *Linux*' (I am extremely sorry for the typo). Please stick to the topic! To discuss Mac and Windows, go to 'Apple (Macintosh) vs. Microsoft (Windows)'.

*Edit:* Thanks to mail2and for changing the title!


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## mail2and (Nov 6, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> *I request some moderator (mail2and) to please change the title to 'Reasons for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux'. It was an absent-minded typo.*



Done


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## aryayush (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

Yeah, thanks again! 

So, what's with all the Linux hyper-enthusiasts out there? Why are you guys missing out on the fun? mail2and, is there some Linux distro you prefer over Mac OS X? Is Slackware better, in your opinion? If yes, then can you please tell us the reasons?


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## mail2and (Nov 6, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> there are only two Mac users here compared to the tens of Linux enthusiasts).



Mmm.. 4 users: Satissh owns a Mac Mini.

Milind(goobimama) is the rich guy with an iMac and an iBook


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## aryayush (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

Who is this Satissh? What is his username?
And I forgot goobimama when posting the thread. I know only three of us. I think kumarmohit might also be a Mac user.
__________
Anyway, would you mind answering this:





			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> mail2and, is there some Linux distro you prefer over Mac OS X? Is Slackware better, in your opinion? If yes, then can you please tell us the reasons?


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## mail2and (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Yeah, thanks again!
> 
> So, what's with all the Linux hyper-enthusiasts out there? Why are you guys missing out on the fun? mail2and, is there some Linux distro you prefer over Mac OS X? Is Slackware better, in your opinion? If yes, then can you please tell us the reasons?



Slackware is best for machines with less processing power. It's so configurable that you'd get lots of options at the installation stage itself.

You can use distros based on Slack. They're a bit simpler and smaller(fit in 1 CD).

Zenwalk is a nice distro based on Slack.

SLAX is the best live cd. ever.

However, I'd not advise using Linux instead of OS X because both feel similar! You can run most of the Linux programs on Mac using Fink. 

As you rightly said, the main argument of cost is not valid in your case, as you've already bought a MacBook and paid for Tiger.

The 'better for server' argument doesn't hold water either, as OS X has its own server version, too.


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## goobimama (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

another one of them Mac vs windows vs linux discussions eh? (even though arya did mention that it wasn't...). Waiting for gx to show up...


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## aryayush (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

Yes, it does but most people agree that Linux servers are better than XServes, thought I don't really agree. But anyway, the topic has no relation to this thread.
So, basically you agree that there is little to no reason for a Mac user to install Linux on their machines (unless it's for experimentation purposes). Mac offers all that Linux has in store and then some. Mac rules!  ::self satisfied smug::


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## mail2and (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Yes, it does but most people agree that Linux servers are better than XServes



You can run _OS X Server_ on any Mac, and not just XServes.


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## mehulved (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

@aryayush Satissh's username is Satissh S. And he extensively uses Mac and Linux.
And as for slackware it's really great for P II's and P III's, just see the server on which slackware's site is hosted, but that doesn't mean that it's not so great for today's PC's. It is just great no frills and highly configurable OS. But, it can be a bit intimidating for newbies. But, if you can learn slackware then you can learn linux really nicely.


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## JGuru (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Windows.*



			
				blackpearl said:
			
		

> *Mac, Linux and Windows are like cars.*
> 
> The Windows Car cost a lot but easy to learn. Accessories also cost money and the car may occassionaly give trouble, but with it you can drive over 90% of the roads.
> 
> ...



 @Blackpearl, What you said about Linux is totally wrong!! There are more users
 in this forum itself who are using Linux for past 5 or 6 months & they are very
 comfortable with it.


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## ~Phenom~ (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Windows.*



			
				JGuru said:
			
		

> @Blackpearl, What you said about Linux is totally wrong!! There are more users
> in this forum itself who are using Linux for past 5 or 6 months & they are very
> comfortable with it.


I agree with JGURU.


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## mediator (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> So, what's with all the Linux hyper-enthusiasts out there?


Bro I told u there aren't many Linux users here who might have tried Mac. Andy says there are 4. SO, it wont be much of a interest if only 4 people are to be writing their experiences! U shud replace the "linux" in ur thread title to "Linux or Windows". It wud be fun if gx and others show up here. Believe me! They might say something of interest. For the time being since I dunno nething about MAC, I guess I'll be acting as an observer here tooo! 

@Phenom : If I remember correctly, isn't ur uptime (experience) on Linux around 1-2 months ??


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## aryayush (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> You can run _OS X Server_ on any Mac, and not just XServes.


Yeah, I know that. Apache comes pre-installed on every Mac. But it is a general opinion that Linux is better suited for servers than Macs are.


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## mail2and (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Yeah, I know that. Apache comes pre-installed on every Mac. But it is a general opinion that Linux is better suited for servers than Macs are.


Yeah. Cost plays a big factor in this. You'd not buy a Mac to run it as a server! That'll be a bit expensive to the hosting company.


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## goobimama (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

I've had my Mac running 1.5 months straight, without a restart (even avoided an update which would require restart). 

But the the power went out (some problem with the inverter) and I had to shut it down. And during this entire 1.5 months, it didn't slow down even once. It was as if it was just started. That's one of the main things I like about the mac os. 

Now I haven't used linux thaat much, but from what I've experienced, one has to run around looking for drivers for new hardware, have to run photoshop through WINE, and one's gotta learn some command line stuff. One things for sure though, if it wasn't for my family, the PC in the house would have had linux on it. They are a bit static when it comes to computer tech.


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## aryayush (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				goobimama said:
			
		

> I've had my Mac running 1.5 months straight, without a restart (even avoided an update which would require restart).
> 
> But the the power went out (some problem with the inverter) and I had to shut it down. And during this entire 1.5 months, it didn't slow down even once. It was as if it was just started. That's one of the main things I like about the mac os.


Oh WOW! That just superb. Another testimony to the stability and speed of a Macintosh. My MacBook Pro generally has uptimes of 2-3 days before I have to shut it down for some reason or the other (load shedding, nothing to do, etc.). It never slows dows, that's for sure.


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## mehulved (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

I had a uptime for 7 months on linux before rebooting to install a second distro.
Well with linux either stability has never been a problem. And I have achieved that uptime with windows too. I guess any modern day OS can run continuously for 2-3 months without needing to be switched off.


----------



## mediator (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				goobimana said:
			
		

> I've had my Mac running 1.5 months straight, without a restart (even avoided an *update which would require restart*).


Why does it need a restart like Windows after an update? No restart in Linux after an update !! And 1.5 months is less I guess. Many linux PC's have an uptime of more than 3 months ! Forget about servers. And the performance doesn't degrades !!!!



			
				goobimana said:
			
		

> one has to run around looking for drivers for new hardware


Not always! Not with the new distros today! The case is same even with windows that incompatabilites arises when hardware is latest. But resolved only after some updates!! Does Mac support different hardwares??



			
				goobimana said:
			
		

> have to run photoshop through WINE


Yea, Adobe is unparalleled, no doubt!! But GIMP is really good, almost as good !! Check it out!



			
				goobimana said:
			
		

> and one's gotta learn some command line stuff


Not anymore!! Neways commandline is a priviledge bro! It makes task much easier in some cases! Why do people always relate it do geek stuff?


----------



## mail2and (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Why does it need a restart like Windows after an update?



It's a consumer OS, primarily. Their main focus is on stability rather than fancy uptimes. That is why, quite a lot of OS X updates that update the kernel require a restart. Updates to simple applications do not require a restart.

I don't think re-starting after updates is a big issue.


----------



## mehulved (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

It's ok if the restart is for a kernel. Even linux requires that. AFAIK all OS'es require that.


----------



## mediator (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

@Andy :  If restart is restricted to kernel, then its fine! But believe me restarting all the time after normal updates other than kernel is a heck and very annoying as in windows!!


----------



## mail2and (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> @Andy :  If restart is restricted to kernel, then its fine! But believe me restarting all the time after normal updates other than kernel is a heck and very annoying as in windows!!



Yeah, as an example, I just updated XII. It did not ask for a restart. Similarly, updates to iTunes(unlike WMP), Safari(unlike IE) and iLife apps do not require a restart. However, Quicktime _does_ require a restart when updated. It's the only system software that require a restart.

It's just the 10.4.x updates that require a re-start(Released once in 2 months, on an average).


----------



## mediator (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> It's the only *non-system software* that requires a restart.


Its system software. Right??


----------



## mail2and (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Its system software. Right??




Oops, that was a typo. Thanks for pointing out.


----------



## aryayush (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Why does it need a restart like Windows after an update? No restart in Linux after an update !!


Mac OS X requires a restart oly after a major operating system update or a firmaware update. No more and no less. And as tech_your_future confirmed, even Linux requires that.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> And 1.5 months is less I guess. Many linux PC's have an uptime of more than 3 months ! Forget about servers. And the performance doesn't degrades !!!!


He expressly stated that he had to shut the machine down due to a power cut. For all we know, it may have run for another year!



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Not always! Not with the new distros today! The case is same even with windows that incompatabilites arises when hardware is latest. But resolved only after some updates!! Does Mac support different hardwares??


Yeah, I do agree that hardware support in the various Linux distros is not a problem anymore. They support almost any sort of hardware you connect to them nowadays. Ubuntu even recognised the 'Eject' button on my MacBook Pro keyboard.
But Mac OS X isn't lagging in the department either; it supports virtually any piece of hardware out there. As yet, I have only connect four external devices to it but all four have worked flawlessly without requiring any manual installation of drivers. I have connected my Sony Ericsson W550i, LaCie 250GB external hard drive, Transcend 256MB USB drive and a Sony digital camera. On connecting the camera, iPhoto popped up in a flash and offered to import the photos for me. Ingenious!



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> goobimama said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh c'mon! Don't kid yourself. Linux distros are practically unusable if you want to do something even remotely advanced and don't want to be friendly with the Terminal. Just run a search for 'Linux tips' on Google; eight out of ten tricks require you to fire up the terminal. Browse through digit's occasional tips on Linux and you can find terminal commands everywhere. Basically, getting Linux to do anything that it doesn't do by default requires that you copy-paste code from the internet. And what happens when you make some severe mistake (and it is very likely for a newbie to make one) - the whole operating system comes crashing down without so much as a warning sign. I have a brother who has been trying to learn Linux and therefore, uses it on a regular basis. He manages to crash his OS every fortnight or so. When I asked him about it, he told me that it was due to his escapades with the Terminal. I told him to avoid using it and it was he who told me that it's impossible to avoid the Terminal on Linux. And here I am. I have been using the Mac for three months and I have never seen Terminal and I have done such hacks as changing my fans' speed to six times faster (6000 RPM) and install another windows manager (kind of like installing XGL/Compiz on Ubuntu - only much more easy and user-friendly).



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Neways commandline is a priviledge bro! It makes task much easier in some cases! Why do people always relate it do geek stuff?


That, my dear friend, is a poor excuse to defend one of Linux's glaring shortcomings and you are aware of that. If the command line interface had been a privilege, open source coders wouldn't have been working their a**es off trying to improve the GUI and make it more user-freindly to try and avoid situations where a simple home user has to resort to the Terminal way of doing things. And the word 'command' and 'easy' simply don't belong in the same sentence!


----------



## mediator (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

@aryayush : Hey calm down man! Atleast don't forget the etiquettes to debate here now! I hope u know how I can debate then! There r somethings I'm learning about MAC here n somethings I'm telling u from mah personal experiences on Linux. In between I'm not lying newhere n not "kidding" newhere!! I hope u understand such simple things! Don't u??

I guess ur ignorant about Linux usage to some extent n have low experience on it! Have u checked out new Ubuntu?? Everything can be installed with "Synaptic Package Installer"! Try it n then tell, n then to ur brother too!

There r different Linux distros suited to different people! There r extremely geeky people who like to use Gentoo and then newbies like ur brother who have Ubuntu as their friend! Recommend him Ubuntu. @Jguru says Mandriva2007 is even easier than Ubuntu!! So no commandlines! And I'm certainly not "kidding"!



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> And what happens when you make some severe mistake (and it is very likely for a newbie to make one) - *the whole operating system comes crashing down without so much as a warning sign*


Pure Carelessness! Tell him that there exist something called "sudo" n use that instead the "su"! Carelessness using root can destroy any OS! And in Linux u don't need the root to do normal kinds of activities and even to install softwares! U can live by the "make" thing! "Make Install" is to bring it  in commandline.The code compiled on ur machine is best for it. I hope u'll agree. Does MAc allows to compile the code on ur machine? Giving u best performance??  Now I know u'll argue that it is part of commandline. So for the GUI thing u have Rpm's and deb files. Just click em and install it like windows setup files!



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> That, my dear friend, is a poor excuse to defend one of Linux's glaring shortcomings and you are aware of that. If the command line interface had been a privilege, open source coders wouldn't have been working their a**es off trying to improve the GUI and make it more user-freindly to try and avoid situations where a simple home user has to resort to the Terminal way of doing things. And the word 'command' and 'easy' simply don't belong in the same sentence!


Its not a poor excuse mah friend. Its a fact. Most of the things today u can do from commandline to make ur living/working n this free OS, u can do that via GUI too! But there are some concepts like pipelining etc (I hope u know what they r) that can be done only from commandline and I hope MAC supports that from commandline!
Pipelining is a simple concept and a very helpful concept in doing things as quickly as u want like 1. copying the output of a command to a file, 2.  searching for specific strings in one go etc! I hope u understand what I'm saying! These things can be done from GUI too, but then for like 2. u open the word editor, open the file and then search the string in it! So lengthy task isn't it??  Try it n u'll know what i mean!!

Similarly for downloading stuff I find commandline much better than all the windows and Linux download accelerators (GUI stuff). Just press "ctrl+shift+n", name the command n put address to it, n then bingo, better speeds n less system resources consumed. Better speeds becoz thats what I ave noticed both in Fedora n Ubuntu! Now for Gui, u go to menu bar, click on icon the app takes some 5 seconds to load (My pc is old) and then type the address in it and then download. It will hog system resources too! 
Now u may argue that y u have to type coz u want to show MAC is better in ur new found excitement. Then to tell u, u can copy n paste too! Ofcors u can.

So u see, in todays Linuxes u can live without commandline. Its a priviledge to use it though! Most people use it because it can make ur task done in a very short time! If u don't understand the advantages of commandline in some cases like pipelining that can make ur computing much efficient than ofcors no one can help u to see things correctly! Try pipelining in MAC if it is there n then tell, if u like it or dislike it!

I'm not a geek and dont install linuxes every 6 months to see the beauties in next updgraded distro. But I want easyness and convenience. I know how to compute and I know which is the best way to do it! The concept of commandline is similar to using "Ctrl c", "ctrl V" instead of right clicking the mouse and selecting copy, paste from it! I hope ur clear by now!  


So doood, I'm not "kidding"! I'm not debating here on something on which I'm ignorant and u shudn't do that either coz then u'll leave no difference between u n gx! U shudn't debate when u have low experience on any OS. I guess u have negligible on Linux OS. I can understand ur excitement for MAC n can clearly see from ur attitudes n nature here, the reason for which u opened this thread! But don't let that excitement make u a fanboy n prevent u to see the fact! I cud have mocked u badly for ur ignorant views about commandline. But since I'm learning about Mac here as an observer, then may be u shud learn about Linux too in OPen source!

I'm trying to debate here as humbly as I can . So don't put words in mah mouth by talking absurd n ignorant n behaving like gx!! And I'm certainly not "kidding"!! 

In here I have talked about free distros, n I hope u know about propreitary ones!


----------



## mehulved (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

Well whether CLI is good or bad is just a perception of different people. To each his own.


----------



## aryayush (Nov 8, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> @aryayush : Hey calm down man! Atleast don't forget the etiquettes to debate here now! I hope u know how I can debate then!


Hey, I never get riled up on online forums and never lose my cool. And why would I do so here? You are posting your opinions and I am posting mine - each in a friendly manner. 
I always try to use friendly emoticons to denote that I am replying cheerfully but I don't know why some people unnecessarily get all worked up (and I am not pointing towards anyone in particular).


----------



## mediator (Nov 8, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

^^ I hope u be friendly!



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Oh c'mon! Don't kid yourself.





			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> You are posting your opinions and *I am posting mine*


For the first quote, These kinda statements shudn't be posted unless ur 100% sure of what ur talking abt! 

Also, U told the experience of ur brother n not ur experience on Linux. May I know why? So from second quote, ur definitely not talking about ur views (opinion) ! *U have formed ur views (opinion) based on views of some other person. In this case ur brother*! Don't get offended, but how sane is that in a debate n talking about other's views n not ur views?

So the second quote definitely contradicts ur earlier posts! And I don't see u posting ur opinions well!

Likewise I can also say absurdly that mah friend said Mac is good for nothing and is a trash n a waste of money! How sane wud it be? I hope u got mah point!

So I hope that from now onwards, u really put ur views here and not ur brother's or someone else's!!


----------



## aryayush (Nov 8, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

LOL! That was the funniest post ever.

I am short of experience on the Linux platform, which is why I started this topic, so it's is totally reasonable that I post experiences of others whom I am in contact with. And it is the truth. I don't see the harm in voicing the troubles one cousin of mine is facing on this forum.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> *U have formed ur views (opinion) based on views of some other person. In this case ur brother!*


Doesn't everyone do that? Is it not normal? If your doctor tells you you have a stone in your kidney, will you cut it open yourself so that you can form your own opinion? You can't be everything and you can't experience everything - so you have to take others' word for it. It's perfectly normal behaviour, mate! You, for example, have never used a Macintosh but if someone asks you about it, you will surely quote some of points made by the likes of mail2and, goobimama and me. Why? Because we live in a social environment and have to depend on a lot of other people. 

You find the statement, "Oh c'mon! Don't kid yourself." less than friendly? You are being oversensitive, friend.

And you want to hear my experiences with Linux, right? Well, here goes. I don't remember which distro it was but the first Linux distro I ever tried had a KDE desktop. It installed properly and I had no problems whatsoever with it. However, when it first ran, it did not recognise my mouse. I tried to navigate it with the keyboard for a while but knowing nothing about Linux and without any knowledge of the keyboard shortcuts, it was pretty useless. I uninstalled it.
The next one I tried started installing fine but stuck midway while trying to configure my CD-ROM. I tried the installation quite a few times but in vain.
Then I tried Ubuntu and Kubuntu. Both had to be started in safe graphics mode but they installed and worked fine but try as I might, they would not connect to the internet. (And you call Linux VERY easy? Why is there a topic in this forum itself dedicated to connecting DataOne on a GNU/Linux desktop? Why does doing such a simple thing require help on Linux?) Their 64-bit versions just stuck on the first loading screen which has the logo and never even started with the installation on my friend's 64-bit PC (and it is my opinion because I was doing the installation for him, or at least trying to).
Then I tried OpenSUSE. The installation worked after three tries but worked smoothly in the third try. However, the partition setup was a pain in the a**. When everything was installed properly, I booted it up and after a lot of greek lines of text, it showed a loading screen for a long time - and then everything became haywire. You ever seen a TV with malfunctioning antennae? It strongly resembled that.
Now, I tried to install OpenSUSE on my MacBook Pro. It installed and worked fine on Parallels. Then I made a partition for it on the hard drive and tried to install it. It never moved past the partition screen. I tried Ubuntu and it completely messed everything up. I tried to install it on my external hard drive and it formatted my whole drive even though I had clearly selected the option of resizing it (but I had made a backup, so I did not lose my 70+ GB of data). I tried to install it alongside the Windows installation on the internal hard drive and it first formatted the drive and removed Windows (contrary to what I had asked it to do again) and then told me that it was not possible to install it. Why, in the name of Merlin, couldn't it have provided me with that helpful information BEFORE formatting the drive? Or better still, why couldn't it have left the Windows installation alone!
And why does every Linux installation take so much time to bootup and shut down? There appears a lot of text telling you that everything is OK, OK, OK, Enabled, etc. It is very very irritating.

That, my dear friend, is my story about my Linux experiences. It is not exactly a bed of roses. Some of it must have been my fault but the fact remains, that Linux has still a long way to go before it becomes truly user-friendly. People should not have to take a backup of their hard drive before trying to install Linux on it. You may say that all this happened because I am a newbie and must have made some mistakes, well, I am a newbie to the Macintosh too but it has never formatted any of my drives against my wishes, network connection was a snap, sharing that connection with Linux and Windows was equally easy, the mouse has never stopped functioning, there have been no distorted screens and no trouble at all, in fact.
But it does not mean that I don't like Linux or will never try it again. I genuinely appreciate what the open source community has managed to achieve with Linux and the advancements (such as XGL/Compiz) today are really mind-blowing. But when there is a discussion between which is better: Mac or Linux, you know what I will opt for. It is simply THE best platform for computing IMHO. It has brains and brawn too!


----------



## mediator (Nov 9, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> I simply told that you need 2GB of RAM if you want to run Parallels properly. It is a software that allows you to run Windows or Linux on a Macintosh simultaneously along with Mac OS X. Apart from that, it is pretty content even with 512MB of RAM. Of course, the more you throw at it, the more snappier it'll be, as any OS will and should.


I didn't ask about running parallels or running Linux and windows as guest OS on mac. I asked about running MAc on Vmware and parallels. And u said nething below 2 GB wont do justice! So can I run MAc on VMware and parallels with Xp or Linux as HOST OS with my currently 512 MB RAM?



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> *Because having to install the operating system is part and parcel of the end-user experience.* I don't know about you but I always prefer to install any OS on my machine myself. Maybe you are a lazy goon who thinks he is above such menial tasks, but I am not.


Awww! Its not me who thinks that installation is not a work of end-users buddy! But its the world of computer engineering, the IEEE representation and the world of software engineering that thinks so!
There are many type of users : 

1. End-users
2. System maintainers
3. Developers
4. Testers and unit installers

So If u have read the books or have even a little bit of knowledge in the world of computing u'll probably know what I'm talking about!

U started the thread about end-users buddy, so don't mix the tasks of various users. Just talk about end-users.

As for the highlighted part, that again ur ignorance! So read the books n then tell what is part n parcel n of what!! Please don't give ur expert comments specially in the field of software engineering!



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> As if I did not post my own opinion! As if there is something wrong with posting someone else's opinion! *As if you never quote another person when posting on this forum itself!*


Still talking rubbish?? Even when I enlightened u about ur own absurd doctor's example?? Now who won't get piised off with these kinda thought of urs??
I tried to make u understand n requested u to have ur own independent personal outlook. But then, I can't help u beyond that. 
Try debating like that with ur views based on other's view in each n every debate in real life. At the end of such debates u'll always remember me n that I warned u of having such mindset!! U'll know in ur life when u grow mature what I'm talking about!

As for highlighted part, I never do that without experiencing the scenario myself or if the person is professional enough to be trusted not like ur noobi brother. I told u shud have brains to judge to whom to follow n whose words to take. U like to repeat statements n make others repeat too. Don't u??



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> *Just because I am not as well acquainted with it as with Windows or Macintosh, does not mean that I am ignorant about it*. And if I not well acquainted with it, the reason is that I never quite managed to get it working perfectly on my machine which prevented me from using it for long periods.


It seems u have habit of eating cooked food! If so then try propreitary linux, that shud close ur mouth completely! 
If u value money try fedora 6 or Ubunty edgy or mandriva 2007! It will take u like 1-2 hrs to make ur system complete with all the entertainment softwares + propreitary codecs installed. AS for the ease its there.

And dood acquaintance is of 2 type : practical n theoretical. Theoretical acquantance don't count in such debates ( I hope I don't have to elaborate this for u now. Even gx wud wud understand this ) . That leaves practical acquaintance and since u have not used linux personally for long periods n dont have well practical acquaintance then that certainly means ur ignorant about it. 

Now check what I said n what u have written absurd! I have given proof of ur absurdness. I dont call neone absurd talker for no reason.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> I am not sitting out here to entertain thy holy highness!


Thanx for the complement. Thats the best complement 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> NEWSFLASH: My cousin gave me the verdict that Linux wasn't very user-friendly and I tried it out - guess what, this amazing thing happened - I agreed with his opinion!


 NEWSFLASH : My 4 yr old little sister asks me all the time "What to do?" when she sits on MAC. What u think I shud do?? Tell the world that MAC is not userfriendly or educate her??



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Yeah, I can surely see that. Friendliness is bursting out of you!


Thanx!




			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> You know what, you have a twisted mentality. If you don't know something about a subject, *you should admit it* (as I did) and you should speak out your opinions and listen to others too. That is, if you want to learn about the subject at hand.


Can't u read English?? Or someone here told u that mah post is written in Farsi n u believed him again? I already told plethora of times I'm learning about MAC here n as highlighted I already admitte it. Well who's having twisted mentality that everybody can surely see here!

Sooo u give ur opinions without getting acknowledged and enlightened about the subject???? U must be the first one dood. U surely amuse me! Can't mock u further here now! U just crossed the threshold of insanity giving new records!



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Are you blind? No seriously, do have some severe physical or mental problem? I expressly mentioned that I have installed Ubuntu/Kubuntu many times, don't you understand such a simple thing.


And where did I stated that u installed it only one time???? Are you blind? No seriously, do have some severe physical or mental problem? Can't u understand n see such a simple thing?? U need a glass of water boy! First ur talking ignorant n absurd n then speaking further to support it! U'll get terribly mocked. I request u to stop ur words here only!





			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> As for the Macintosh, they are not supposed to be installed on ordinary PCs because Apple has restricted that. It is supposed to be installed only on Apple hardware and it does that perfectly. It gets installed in six clicks of the mouse - just six clicks. Of course you can't expect that from Linux because it is made to cater to every sort of configuration, but it should at least get installed without harming the user's precious data.


What r ordinary PC's man?? PIII's?? Do u need a super computer to install MAC?? Do u need to be rich?? The supporting platforms by an OS also marks the improvement of an OS my friend!! Now what will u say?? That u don't believe that outta ur ignorance??
Study software engineering,IEEE etc. U'll know what I'm saying n then tell what u believe! 





			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> It was pre-installed but I have installed it myself too.


Seriously??



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Yes, and I am not in the habit of doing that either. I clearly read all the options, went through instructions from online sources too before doing the partitioning. And I have installed Windows (98, XP and Vista) more times than I care to count but I never had a problem with the partitioning of my drives. I am quite adept at doing it. And if some OS made it difficult for me to get the partitioning correct, it is the operating system's fault, not mine.


U failed even after reading online instructions??  . Now that raises questions on ur intellect!! That u can't even follow simple online instructions! Neways if MAc was easy to install for u then Fedora 5 n Ubuntu 5.10 n Ubuntu Edgy were easy for me!
Ofcors problems exist everywhere n solving those problems (even the simplest ones) only makes u efficient in computing. 




			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Hey, piss off man! What sort of a sickly retarded person are you anyway? I don't have a problem with Linux, OK? And I don't need to lie about anything to prove anything - and specially to people like you! And what's up with bringing gxsaurav up in every single post? Why do carry grudges with you all over the place? I bet you even tell your friends about how you had a fight on an online forum and gloat about it. You are re-defining the word 'sadist'!


Calm down man, I don't need to tell mah friends that the world is filled with morons like one I'm debating! There better things in to talk about. We like to enlighten each other practically n we don' make ignorant and absurd statements!
World is filled with people who can't classify n like to follow others n believe wateva other's say. I don't have time to talk about such trash people! 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> No, I don't. It is Apple's policy and they are free to practise it. It is how they ensure that their customers get a fully compatible and rock-solid operating system, fine-tuned relationship between the hardware and software and they have to sell their hardware too.


Now thats an example of fanboyism!! Talk about end-users experience buddy, why r making pathetic excuses outta topic??



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> And who gives you the right to judge whether I had used my brains or not?


Ur symptoms are judging u!! Do u ask the same question to doctor also?? Now what will u say "I'm a doctor"??? 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> What do you think of yourself anyway? You think only you are sane here, only you got a brain, sicko?


Give as much personal comments as u want and u'll see I'm indeed friendly!!



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> The last thing I need to learn from you is vocabulary. I have never commented on it but your language sucks, man. Every post you make is riddled with grammatical and usage flaws. *I can whip your a** right off you if you want to take me head-on is a competition of language skills. Bring it on, su**er!*


Where are the topic related replies man?? U can't provoke me like that! Neways when ur dad requests u to talk and act sanely, u reply him as highlighted?? 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> I have tried Ubuntu 6.10 and OpenSUSE 10.1. So don't speak about things you are not sure of (as you have kindly advised me tens of times in your previous post)


I expected such reply. Seeing all ur posts neone,even a kid  can decide how honest n sure u r!



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Not only is that a very un-gentlemanly post with lots of insults and harsh words, it is very repetitive too! If you had to scream your guts out at someone, couldn't you at least have come up with a few more and better words? Is that the best you can do? Shame on you!
> If you scour through every post I have ever made on any online forum (barring this post), you won't come up with as many expletives as you have used in one single post. I think it is perfectly justified if I have gone a bit overboard with the strong words in this post, given your response to my polite posts and I do not give a damn if any action is taken against me due to this post!


Where is the topic related posts man??



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Since these are the only few lines in your previous post which sound as if they were written by a normal human being, I would like to congratulate you for these!
> 
> Now, I was very friendly and I spoke politely but when you call a person stupid (or his opinion absurd) fifty times in a single post (now don't count it up and post the exact figure in the next post and claim that it wasn't fifty!), you lose the right to be respected yourself!


Thanx for the personal comments!

Neways for each n every absurd post of urs I have given the proof and showed u where u were acting ignorant. Also I didn't explicitly said that u were stupid. But I guess u desperately and affirmly want me to say that!


*And how many times u saw that finger* before u posted it there for others to see it?? Very amusing! Entertain me more!


----------



## mail2and (Nov 9, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

Firstly, mediator I'd like to point out that Apple does not sell you the software. They're primarily a hardware company, and they bundle an OS with their hardware.

Secondly, I used Linux before I bought my Mac Mini. I can install Ubuntu, whereas my father can not. Linux, as a whole, is coming up in a big way, but saying that it is as user-friendly as other OSes is wrong. You might understand Unix, but in an non-IT office, why would you want some one to use the terminal, even if it is for 1 command. 

As for Mac installation, no you don't need to understand partitioning. OS X makes the whole disk a single partition, as a default. So, people who don't understand stuff, and have no reason to either, can install OS X without a problem. OS X is designed in such a way that a joe user can do anything without ever knowing what the terminal is, while an advanced user can use the terminal to do every thing. Linux is getting there, which is commendable for a community-based OS, but the fact remains that it is not there, yet.

Don't believe me? Ask GNUrag. 

The installation is as simple as Next/Next/Next. Someone had posted OS X installation screenshots in Digit.

I found your point that OS X takes more RAM on a virtual machine very strange. First, you are not supposed to install it on a virtual machine. It is illegal. Second, it is true of every OS. This is because you're running an OS on top of another OS. I've run OS X natively on a HP laptop(don't ask me how), and it ran perfectly well on Celeron M 1.4 ghz and 224 mb ram(32 mb shared with vid card).


----------



## aryayush (Nov 9, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

I bet you have a penguin idol in your house and you pray in front of it everyday, don't you, mediator?

All of mail2and's points are true and exactly what I was trying to tell you. If you have a problem with his post too, go ahead, flame him too - let's see how much pleasure you can juice out of it!



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> Firstly, mediator I'd like to point out that Apple does not sell you the software. They're primarily a hardware company, and they bundle an OS with their hardware.


Yes, but they do sell Mac OS X, iLife, iWork and Final Cut Studio Pro seperately too, andy. Of course, it is ony permissible to be installed on Apple hardware.


----------



## mediator (Nov 9, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

Hi @andy


			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> Firstly, mediator I'd like to point out that Apple does not sell you the software. They're primarily a hardware company, and they bundle an OS with their hardware.


I hope aayush can enlighten me like that!



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> Secondly, I used Linux before I bought my Mac Mini. *I can install Ubuntu, whereas my father can not.* Linux, as a whole, is coming up in a big way, but saying that it is as user-friendly as other OSes is wrong. You might understand Unix, but in an non-IT office, why would you want some one to use the terminal, even if it is for 1 command.


I understand! @Andy the picture of linux u have formed in ur mind is of free Linux isn't it? Now if u want something for free, u ofcors have to do a little hardwork to make it complete. And spending 1-2 hrs to  make it complete isn't too much I guess. Now tell me have u ever used propreitary linux so as to say the same??
As for the higlighted part thats the case with not only with ur father but almost everyone's father! Honestly tell if ur father can install even Windows?? Almost everyone's father today depend on their kids today for the installation part! Ur 20 yrs of age. ANd Most of Today's fathers for our generation aren't used to computing well. My father knows only MS-Word,shutting windows  down and starting it up! I hope u understand!
Next the picture of mah BBA friend. He ask me to install even windows for him! 
I agree Linux is coming up in a big way. And most people who like to experiment with OSs are people like us! But in the past 3 yrs I find the Linux installation has become extremely easy! Check out in open source, many people today say its a piece of cake! Its my own judgement that the installation part has improved dramatically!
As for the commandline I already discussed that with aryayush who njoyed by replying with personal comments instead! PLease do reply to what I said about commandline!



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> As for Mac installation, no you don't need to understand partitioning. *OS X makes the whole disk a single partition, as a default. So, people who don't understand stuff, and have no reason to either, can install OS X without a problem.* OS X is designed in such a way that a joe user can do anything without ever knowing what the terminal is, while an advanced user can use the terminal to do every thing. Linux is getting there, which is commendable for a community-based OS, but the fact remains that it is not there, yet.


Most linux installations make "whole disk a single partition, as a default". Most becoz I'm not aware about other distros! They might be doing the same. So whats the  difference between that and MAC's installation?? AS for the rest I have already discussed that in context of commandline! Do reply to that! All u said is same with today's linux, but neways do reply to what I said earlier!



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> Don't believe me? Ask GNUrag.


About Linux or Mac? If its for Linux then any person who has used modern Linux distro wud say the same as I'm doing! Gnurag wud do the same. I'm well experienced on Linux. Why shud I consult other person neways?? If ur talking about MAC, then no need for that. I believe u!

Neways I hope that atleast u know the classification of the user category and I hope u know that installation part isn't the task of end-users whose experience this thread is dedicated to.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> The installation is as simple as Next/Next/Next. Someone had posted OS X installation screenshots in Digit.


Well the Ubuntu installation is also next next next if u want the whole hdd to be made as single partition.



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> I found your point that OS X takes more RAM on a virtual machine very strange.


Nope thats not my point. Thats what aryayush told me when I asked him in WIn Vs mac debate! Read it!



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> First, you are not supposed to install it on a virtual machine. It is illegal.


It may be illegal. But I just wanna know if it can be installed or not!



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> I've run OS X natively on a HP laptop(*don't ask me how*), and it ran perfectly well on Celeron M 1.4 ghz and 224 mb ram(32 mb shared with vid card).


That's not fair now! I wanna experience OS X too. So educate me with the "how" part! I wud prefer installation on VMWare!


@aayush 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> I bet you have a penguin idol in your house and you pray in front of it everyday, don't you, mediator?


Now thats nice, after such debates mediator is coming in ur nightmares tooooo that u see him with a penguin idol?? That really amuses me. Nemore story to tell?? Please write some 10-20 stories like this one in ur next post. Thanx for entertaining me. Please continue.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> All of mail2and's points are true and exactly what I was trying to tell you. If you have a problem with his post too, go ahead, flame him too - let's see how much pleasure you can juice out of it!


Thats a nice one! Where did I started flaming bro?? Can u quote to prove ur words??
Do u find words like "absurd,ignorant" offensive????? Have u ever debated with ur teacher or father or neone in real situation???? U'll find these words very common. Do u watch TV debates atleast?? Ur ignorant about debates too!!

Now in those debates with ur father, teacher n neone try using words "U must be kidding" n wateva u used in successive posts. DOn't know about "neone" but ur father n teacher will surely leave u with black eyes and red face without teeth!

If u have a little bit brains, u'll probably understand what I'm talking about!!



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Yes, but they do sell Mac OS X, iLife, iWork and Final Cut Studio Pro seperately too, andy. Of course, it is ony permissible to be installed on Apple hardware.


Means extra money has to be shelled out for *some* additional software?? like MS??

So @aryayush, If u ever go mature n come out of ur world of childishness then please do reply from my posts in which u ignorantly n absurdly thought that words like "absurd,ignorant" are offensive!


----------



## mail2and (Nov 9, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



> Next the picture of mah BBA friend. He ask me to install even windows for him!



Well, I'm a B.com guy.



> Most linux installations make "whole disk a single partition, as a default". Most becoz I'm not aware about other distros! They might be doing the same. So whats the  difference between that and MAC's installation?? AS for the rest I have already discussed that in context of commandline! Do reply to that! All u said is same with today's linux, but neways do reply to what I said earlier.



Well, you've to install OS X to know the difference  I've installed Slackware, Ubuntu, Fedora, Windows, Linspire, Mandriva, Lycoris and Zenwalk . I can tell you that OS X installation was by far the simplest. As I said, search for Tiger installation screenshots. You'll get quite a few on the web.




> That's not fair now! I wanna experience OS X too. So educate me with the "how" part! I wud prefer installation on VMWare!



It's a bit of a pain. I forgot how to install(Well over 1.5 yrs ago). You can find the vmware image on  torrent sites. The install guides had been taken down quite a while back.



> Means extra money has to be shelled out for *some* additional software?? like MS??



Apple give iLife and OS X free with Macs. Some movies edited/made with iMovie have been screened at Cannes. *www.mysanantonio.com/business/stories/MYSA110506.2R.themacguy.188d302.html

As for Final Cut Pro, it's a professional video editing software, which is used by movie studios. It's not meant for an individual. *


----------



## mediator (Nov 9, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> Well, I'm a B.com guy.


My point was that people are scared to install the so called "most user friendly and easy OS". They find problems in that too !



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> Well, you've to install OS X to know the difference I've installed Slackware, Ubuntu, Fedora, Windows, Linspire, Mandriva, Lycoris and Zenwalk . I can tell you that OS X installation was by far the simplest. As I said, search for Tiger installation screenshots. You'll get quite a few on the web.


U may be right. I don't question that! But very very easy and easy are different things. If noobies n other people can install Ubuntu n all the distros u said without any hint or help, then don't u think its easy enough??

Linux is primarily a server OS n developing fast into a desktop OS. It may even beat MAC OS X in "very very friendliness" thing in near future witnessing the huge improvements done in last 3 yrs alone! But if noobies n other people say that today's Linux is as easy as windows or even easier than windows, then don't u think thats a big complement to OSS developers??? Don't u thinks thats easy enough?? MAc may be easier, but today Linux is easy too!



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> It's a bit of a pain. I forgot how to install(Well over 1.5 yrs ago). You can find the vmware image on torrent sites. The install guides had been taken down quite a while back.


Please hand over the guides if u find them! 



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> Apple give iLife and OS X free with Macs. Some movies edited/made with iMovie have been screened at Cannes. *www.mysanantonio.com/business...y.188d302.html
> 
> As for Final Cut Pro, it's a professional video editing software, which is used by movie studios. It's not meant for an individual. *


Yea that comes in cost part! But u can't deny that this scenario resembles to that of MS. Neways we r discussing about end-users experience as requested by aayush and defied by himself who talked further than end-user thing!


----------



## JGuru (Nov 9, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

@Mediator, Here is the *Mac OS X v10.4 Installation & setup Guide* Click here
 I agree with @Andy here. Mac OS X is the most easiest O.S to install of all the O.Ss
 including Windows & Linux!! One of my friends has a Mac. Linux installation is also
 getting more simpler with each release. You can see in this forum itself, lots of Linux
 noobs installing Linux with little help.


----------



## mediator (Nov 9, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

It may be easy, I'm not at all questioning that! But just trying to remove the myths people have about Linux today. And thats what I said, Linux is getting easy that even noobies r njoying it!


----------



## aryayush (Nov 9, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				JGuru said:
			
		

> @Mediator, Here is the *Mac OS X v10.4 Installation & setup Guide* Click here


That guide won't help him. It is the one Apple officially distributes for installing Mac OS X on Apple hardware.
mediator needs the guide made by people who manage to get Mac OS X running on regular PCs.
__________


			
				mediator said:
			
		

> It may be easy, I'm not at all questioning that! But just trying to remove the myths people have about Linux today. And thats what I said, Linux is getting easy that even noobies r njoying it!


If you remember it, the discussion centered around which was easier, not whether Linux is easy or not.


----------



## mediator (Nov 9, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

@aryayush 


			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> mediator needs the guide made by people who manage to get Mac OS X running on regular PCs.


Correct if it can be done or else for VMWARE!



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> If you remember it, the discussion centered around which was easier, not whether Linux is easy or not.


Correct! Knowing that u defied ur own request?? Read the previous posts if u forgot what I'm talking about!
Neways u commented nothing about my reply for commandline except for personal comments ofcors!


----------



## mehulved (Nov 9, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

@aryayush. Ubuntu has warned that defualt partitioning formats the entire disk. Well all the OS'es I know of do that. From what Andy said, I got that even Mac does that. And even windows does that AFAIK.
But, you can do manual partitioning and tell it which partition to format, which not to, which to mount, where to mount and all. Installer won't touch that partition otherwise.
@mediator please leave gx out of this discussion, he's not here and anyways there's no talk of windows here.
GNU/Linux has an aim of being user friendly, but the thing is that these distros are released by the community. And on what basis are these communities formed? Mostly these people are Free Software entusiasts, who don't really prefer any proprietory softwares in the distros. So, what you have is a distro lacking of some commonly used proprietory softwares. So, it will make life difficult for the end users. And the community is not going to change this stance and compromise with the proprietory software makers just for a short term goal of increasing the user base. Rather they will stick to something that has got the linux where it is today - the opening of the source. In FLOSS community, the openness of the source is one of the biggest things and it makes a lot of sense. As of what I have read about the history of computers, the earliest years where computers were evolving, code sharing was the main reason the use of computers could become widespread. If in the earlier years, the codes of those softwares would have been hidden we'd never have a computer industry so wide spread.
One of the most common example I give is tcp protocol. tcp protocol was released under BSD license so everyone could freely use it, see it's source and modify it as per their liking. Now, MS has taken up that code, made changes and is trying to put up it's proprietory code of the tcp protocol as defualt so it can edge others out of the competition. Something of a similar sort is going on with ssl, again under BSD license. 
I know this is quite off topic. But, the point I am trying to make is that proprietory softwares are a big hurdle in the way of development of linux or any open source OS. Whereas MS and Apple don't have to face it, since they have no such policy.


----------



## mediator (Nov 10, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

^^^^ AHhh correct! I shudn't have done that.  I apologize to gx for that!
__________
Since we don't have many MAC users here, I feel some sources shud be attached to this thread matching its meaning! I hope aayush consents that!
Here are some recent MAC and linux threads I found where people posted their experiences!

*www.oreillynet.com/mac/blog/2004/02/open_source_vs_mac_vs_windows.html
*news.zdnet.com/2100-9590_22-5406365.html
*sekhon.berkeley.edu/macosx/

The authors have posted their experiences followed by others who have commented on that and gave their experiences as well.
Please do find such recent sources n post it here if u like the idea!


----------



## aryayush (Nov 10, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				tech_your_future said:
			
		

> @aryayush. Ubuntu has warned that defualt partitioning formats the entire disk. Well all the OS'es I know of do that. From what Andy said, I got that even Mac does that. And even windows does that AFAIK.
> But, you can do manual partitioning and tell it which partition to format, which not to, which to mount, where to mount and all. Installer won't touch that partition otherwise.


I had very clearly instructed it to 'resize' my entire 250GB disk into two partitions: 200GB with the FAT32 that already existed and 50GB for Linux. The installer specifically said that the existing contents won't be harmed during the resizing but still advised me to make a backup. I quit the intallation and made a backup, just in case. And I selected the same options again during installation and it formatted the whole drive and did not even make the two partitions I had requested.
Then I tried to install it on my MBP's internal drive and it erased the Windows installation and THEN told me that Ubuntu could not be installed.
I am not stupid and I know that I did not make ANY mistake. I have installed Ubuntu on my PC in the past alongside Windows and I had configured everything correctly and got Ubuntu installed and working successfully (except the networking part), so I do have past experiences to fall back on.


----------



## gxsaurav (Nov 10, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

although, i m not taking part in this debate...but aryaush, i don't think u can make a FAT32 partition bigger then 32GB in both Mac & Windows....maybe u can in linux, but thats hardly possible, so how did u managed to make a 200 GB FAT32 partition in Mac/Windows


----------



## aryayush (Nov 10, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

First of all, the drive was formatted in the FAT32 format by default. But I have myself done it using Mac too. It is as simple as launching 'Disk Utility', selecting the 'Erase' tab, selecting 'MS-DOS File System' from the 'Volume Format:' drop-down menu, giving it a name and hitting return.

Click on the thumbnail to view the screenshot:
*www.tachypic.com/thumb/2601.jpeg
Note the format and capacity in the information bar at the bottom of the window.


----------



## mehulved (Nov 10, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> I had very clearly instructed it to 'resize' my entire 250GB disk into two partitions: 200GB with the FAT32 that already existed and 50GB for Linux. The installer specifically said that the existing contents won't be harmed during the resizing but still advised me to make a backup. I quit the intallation and made a backup, just in case. And I selected the same options again during installation and it formatted the whole drive and did not even make the two partitions I had requested.
> Then I tried to install it on my MBP's internal drive and it erased the Windows installation and THEN told me that Ubuntu could not be installed.
> I am not stupid and I know that I did not make ANY mistake. I have installed Ubuntu on my PC in the past alongside Windows and I had configured everything correctly and got Ubuntu installed and working successfully (except the networking part), so I do have past experiences to fall back on.


 All right sorry about that, I wasn't questioning you but was just asking if you had gone wrong since it is quite possible we all miss a few things sometime and never realise it.


----------



## mail2and (Nov 10, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Yea that comes in cost part! But u can't deny that this scenario resembles to that of MS. Neways we r discussing about end-users experience as requested by aayush and defied by himself who talked further than end-user thing!



I fail to understand how it resembles MS. Firstly, iLife has no competition, on any platform. As I said before, movies made with iMovie have been screened at Cannes. You get OS X and iLife *free* with your Mac. 


I believe that any individual, unless he is a big audio/video editing guy working in a high profile studio, has no business considering Logic Pro or Final Cut Pro. Apple charges companies for these _professional_ apps, as companies use these software for commercial purposes. (All big film studios/audio companies). So, saying that they resemble MS, because they charge for a software, is not only absurd, but also foolish.


----------



## mediator (Nov 10, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> Firstly, iLife has no competition, on any platform. As I said before, movies made with iMovie have been screened at Cannes.


I know nuthing about iLife. So can't say how good it is!



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> You get OS X and iLife free with your Mac.


Free???  Nuthing is for free in the corporate world. ANd I'm really surprised that being a B.Com student and now a moderator u still    don't know about such a simple concept! If some companies offer discounts on somewhere then they know how to compensate for it elsewhere! Think about it deeply. So u see its absurd to associate the term "free" with the corporate world! People who think that some company products r free, they r not only foolish but also toooo innocent. If u know how a company works or have some experience in corporate world then u'll probably know what I'm talking about!



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> Apple charges companies for these professional apps, as companies use these software for commercial purposes. (All big film studios/audio companies). So, saying that they resemble MS, because they charge for a software, is not only absurd, but also foolish.


U r saying as if Apple is the only company that makes professional apps! Goto *www.microsoft.com/products/info/default.aspx?View=22  and u'll find several professional apps used for commercial purposes as well as used for university education purposes! So I guess its ur reason which is absurd which isn't logical and correct enough to say that my reason was absurd!


----------



## gxsaurav (Nov 10, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

ok, one thing needs to be clerified...ilife is not free

If Apple bundles ilife apps into OS X they will be sued that instant, just like MS got sued, however, if they give it for sale, & still bundle for free with OS X then this way they will not get sued, cos then they are not including it inside the OS but giving it with the OS/Computer at a discount (free). It's a very good strategy to save themselves from being sued


----------



## mail2and (Nov 10, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> I know nuthing about iLife. So can't say how good it is!
> 
> 
> Free???  Nuthing is for free in the corporate world. ANd I'm really surprised that being a B.Com student and now a moderator u still    don't know about such a simple concept!



What I meant was that it is bundled with the package. Not free as in free beer.





> U r saying as if Apple is the only company that makes professional apps! Goto *www.microsoft.com/products/info/default.aspx?View=22  and u'll find several professional apps used for commercial purposes as well as used for university education purposes! So I guess its ur reason which is absurd which isn't logical and correct enough to say that my reason was absurd!



Please go to any bollywood movie/music studio. Ask them which software they use for post-production work. Then come back and post. Even though similar apps are available for Windows, most of the creative(graphics, audio, video) work is done on Macs. That's one field, where Apple has dominance(The other being education). By graphical work, I don't mean Badriprasad Narayan Sharma making Rs. 2000/month as a free lancer. 
__________


			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> ok, one thing needs to be clerified...ilife is not free
> 
> If Apple bundles ilife apps into OS X they will be sued that instant, just like MS got sued, however, if they give it for sale, & still bundle for free with OS X then this way they will not get sued, cos then they are not including it inside the OS but giving it with the OS/Computer at a discount (free). It's a very good strategy to save themselves from being sued



Nice explanation.


----------



## mehulved (Nov 10, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> By graphical work, I don't mean Badriprasad Narayan Sharma making Rs. 2000/month as a free lancer.


 Huh, Who's Badriprasad Narayan Sharma


----------



## mediator (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> You get OS X and iLife *free* with your Mac.





			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> What I meant was that it is bundled with the package. Not free as in free beer.


@Andy, in the first post u had explicitly highlighted the term "free" to make ur point! Check for urself! ANd for what else is highlighting done for??? So I'm not sure what u really meant out of the 2 posts! It sounded more affirmly like "free as in free bear".



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> *Please go to any bollywood movie/music studio. Ask them which software they use for post-production work. Then come back and post.* Even though similar apps are available for Windows, most of the creative(graphics, audio, video) work is done on Macs. That's one field, where Apple has dominance(The other being education). By graphical work, I don't mean Badriprasad Narayan Sharma making Rs. 2000/month as a free lancer.


Now ur acting a little strange. First I cud understand the typo u made, but now I can't understand why r u acting strangely! The highilighted part is as good as saying that "Go in most homes, and in most of the best companies and find out which operating system they use" to make ur point in Win Vs MAc debate. Isn't that absurd?

And I'm not talking about the creative part alone! It sounds more like as if Ur admitting that Mac is better only for creative part! So u see MS also offers several professional apps used for commercial purposes as well as used for university education purposes! They also offer several products not meant for individuals but companies! I gave u the link, u can freely check it!


----------



## gxsaurav (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*




> *Please go to any bollywood movie/music studio. Ask them which software they use for post-production work. Then come back and post*


 
Andy, *it depends completely on the applications they use,* it's not like most of the companies use Apple Mac only....u will find more percentage of companies using X86 PCs with Windows XP on it, because 

1) AVID apps, used mostly in TVs, news channel work on Windows

2) If AVID real time compositing hardware is used, they use PCs with Windows

3) If they want to use Autodesk application, they use PCs', cos then they can run, 3Ds Max, Toxic, Combustion on the same computer, instead of buying a Mac on which they cannot use Toxic, & 3Ds Max, but they can use a few others

4) If they want to use Final cut HD, Motion, & Shake 4.1, then they are forced to buy a Mac by Apple, as they do not run on other operating system, Apple again ties the software with the hardware, which I would say is a wrong marketing strategy so that their own product sale more then others. They do the same with ipod too, but that’s a different story

5) If they want to use Maya, & other former alias apps along with Apple compositing apps ,they buy Mac as it runs both

6) If they wanna use Adobe After effect, they would prefer a PC more then a Mac, cos on the same PC there are more apps which can run, which do not run on Mac, however, they can also buy a Mac, if they have some apps which run only on Mac, as After effect is also available for Mac. By the way, just check Premiere Pro is no longer available for Mac, so if a company uses it, they will buy PCs

U said this in the other Windows vs. Mac thread too, let me write here again

Cheapest Mac pro = $2500 approx
Shake 4.1 for Mac = $500

Total cost = $ 3000

Shake 4.1 for Fedora core 4, which is the only Linux it runs on, & I still don't understand the reason, cos inside...all Linux are same for this work, costs $3000. Now add to this cost of a workstation about $2500 again, & u can easily find out why a buyer will buy a Mac, cos that is cost effective, just cos Apple has tied it with their own OS & hardware. Besides, u can go out & buy shake 4.1 off the shelf for a Mac, but if u wanna use it for linux, u will need to call them, give a lot of info, render farm size, number of nodes. At least with Windows & Linux, they can run these apps on any PC hardware, not just dell , or HP

Now u tell me, is this a proper marketing strategy? Is this valid....why don't they get sued for this then.

& by the way, why are u bringing workstations apps to this discussion. This thread was made for end user experience. I had to interfere when u said these lines here, which are compleately wrong as such

The day apple releases MacOS X for general computer, like Windows & Linux, it will loose its stability, tieing to their own Hardware is wrong always. Can u imagine the response, if ubuntu ties their Linux with their own OEM Computers or Windows with their own Microsoft OEM PCs


----------



## mail2and (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> cr@p and more cr@p



Star News/Aaj Tak/IBN use Macs. Period.

Most audio studios use Macs(Confirmed by a senior pro who lives in my building)

Same is the case with Movie studios.

These studios don't upgrade like everyday. They have batch upgrades once in two-three years. And they don't buy from retail, they buy from the corporate sales department. Do you even think they change machines? It's sad that you are so grossly misinformed about how offices work. Any computer they buy is used for atleast 2-3 years before upgrading. They max out the specs when the buy a computer so that it lasts them the 2-3 yr. cycle. If you don't believe me, mail the PR department of any movie studio in India(Adlabs). Ask them about their upgrade cycle.

And what do you know about marketing strategy? 

I've told you 331231233 times that Apple IS NOT a software company. It's a hardware company that bundles a OS with their hardware. They can't help if the competition uses Fischer Price user interface(Vista).

You're probably posting this cr@p for the 10th time. Accept it, no one listens to you, GX.

To the others: Well, the troll is here. No more sensible debate will be possible, sadly.


----------



## gxsaurav (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

i came just to say this....& i m not wrong, when i said it depends on the applications they use


----------



## mediator (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

@Andy, why r u only talking about softwares used in movies etc?? Ur talking as if in the world of computing there exist no field other than movie editing etc and all u said!



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> You're probably posting this cr@p for the 10th time. Accept it, no one listens to you, GX.
> To the others: Well, the troll is here. No more sensible debate will be possible, sadly.


Don't get offended, but ur exhibiting the same childishness as shown by @aayush! I agreed to what @mehul said. But something like this is not expected from a moderator now! @Gxsaurav posted his opinions etc in a most humble  manner and is debating quite respectfully! And I do find his post filled with some sense,sanity instead of crap! But it seems ur only being rude to him and getting personal. 
I don't know why u say he is "trolling" coz I find nuthing in his actions that match the meaning of that word. And where has gx written "cr@p and more cr@p" ??

Please behave! And don't behave like @aayush now who even posted my finger here to make him see it quite clearly and properly! ANd please do reply to my post too! 

Neways I think it wud be better to switch back to "end-users experience" if u can't reason and reply correctly!


----------



## eddie (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> Star News/Aaj Tak/IBN use Macs. Period.


 I would like to read more on this. Links?

P.S. Have googled.


----------



## mail2and (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Don't get offended, but ur exhibiting the same childishness as shown by @aayush! I agreed to what @mehul said. But something like this is not expected from a moderator now! @Gxsaurav posted his opinions etc in a most humble  manner and is debating quite respectfully! And I do find his post filled with some sense,sanity instead of crap! But it seems ur only being rude to him and getting personal.



He has posted the same stuff 10 times over, in different threads, with a clear intention of deviating the discussion at hand. I have corrected him and told him facts. But, he does not listen.

If you still find my post offensive, go ahead, click on the _report post_button.


----------



## aryayush (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				tech_your_future said:
			
		

> All right sorry about that, I wasn't questioning you but was just asking if you had gone wrong since it is quite possible we all miss a few things sometime and never realise it.


Yeah, I know it was a suggestion and I obviously was not offended by it. Thanks for a civil reply though, some people have obviously long forgotten how to reply in that manner!



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> The day apple releases MacOS X for general computer, like Windows & Linux, it will loose its stability, tieing to their own Hardware is wrong always. Can u imagine the response, if ubuntu ties their Linux with their own OEM Computers or Windows with their own Microsoft OEM PCs


You know what, if Microsoft's marketing department decided that they could make more money if they introduced a Microsoft PC and tied Windows with it, they would do it in a flash. They don't because they are primarily a software company and make money from the software, not the hardware. Therefore, it makes more sense to sell an operating system that will run on almost any PC in the world, bringing them more customers.
Similarly, Apple is a hardware company and if they tie their world-class operating system and applications with their hardware, people will have more reason to buy the hardware. If the iTunes music service was available to any MP3 player, they would make tens times more money from the service but iPod would not have had even thirty percent market share. Theie primary aim is to sell their Macs, iPods and XServes, not OS X, Final Cut Pro, iLife or iTunes Store. If in the process of selling the hardware, they make money from some of the software too, all the better for them. But they make sure that when you buy a Mac (even Mac Mini, the cheapest of the lot), you get a healthy set of bundled applications and the best OS in the world to run them on. Plus, it gives Apple users a feeling of exclusivity. The difference between a Maruti and Mercedes owner, if you will!



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> You're probably posting this cr@p for the 10th time. Accept it, no one listens to you, GX.
> 
> To the others: Well, the troll is here. No more sensible debate will be possible, sadly.


We do listen to him and it is YOU who is not making sense here, mail2and. Even if some of his posts are illogical and/or biased (and I am not saying that they are), he has every right to post his opinions and I don't think you should make personal comments about it, especially not since you are a moderator. Look at tech_your_future's response to my post for inspiration.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> mail2and said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You get Windows Movie Maker and Windows Media Player free with Windows XP. What is wrong with that statement? A pepsi bottle cost Rs. 45 a month ago and it costs the same today but you get a Kurkure packet with it for the same price. So, what do we say? We cannot say it is 'free' according to you, so do we say we bought the packet seperately? I know they adjusted the price of the packet somewhere and they are obviously not suffering a loss due to it, but for all ends and puposes, it is free for us, isn't it? So, if Apple bundles Mac OS X and iLife with every Mac without any additional charge (the price of every upgraded Mac keeps falling, in fact), then it is FREE. Free as in free beer!



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> mail2and said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When did he say that? I'll bet you hundred bucks if you can quote me the statement in which he either said that directly or even implied so! He just tried to clear your concept of which applications were free and which were not and the reason behind it.
I know you are now going to quote my message, bolden some statements and then say how 'absurd, ignorant, foolish' they are (since these seem to be the only words in your severely limited vocabulary) and then proceed to tell me what my dad would have thought about it. It has become so routine that it seems boring to read through your tirade now, frankly!


----------



## Desi-Tek.com (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



> Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.


 unsatisfaction could be the reason for some 1 to switch from mac to linux or linux to mac or or windows to linux vice versa.
but if u are satisfied with ur os and if it is fulfilling ur requirement , than there is no point in switching to other os!.
other than that could be a mind set of people of trying something new or affection toward other os.


----------



## mediator (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> He has posted the same stuff 10 times over, in different threads, with a clear intention of deviating the discussion at hand. I have corrected him and told him facts. But, he does not listen.


I dunno about the different threads, but here his sanity levels were high enough. If u did reply to him earlier or made everyone clear with ur points then simply point to that debate with corresponding post numbers. Thats what I always do instead of writing the whole thing again or getting personal. Neways if u feel the topic is being deviated then its fine with me!



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> If you still find my post offensive, go ahead, click on the report postbutton.


C'mon bro, thats the last thing I'll ever do! @mehul requested me something. Read it. And I indeed found I was wrong. Did I get offended? SO there r other ways to deal instead of getting personal and bringing ur ego around!



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> You get Windows Movie Maker and Windows Media Player free with Windows XP. What is wrong with that statement? A pepsi bottle cost Rs. 45 a month ago and it costs the same today but you get a Kurkure packet with it for the same price. So, what do we say? We cannot say it is 'free' according to you, so do we say we bought the packet seperately? I know they adjusted the price of the packet somewhere and they are obviously not suffering a loss due to it, but for all ends and puposes, it is free for us, isn't it? So, if Apple bundles Mac OS X and iLife with every Mac without any additional charge (the price of every upgraded Mac keeps falling, in fact), then it is FREE. Free as in free beer!


Since u 

1. didn't reply to my earlier posts about Commandline etc (read em all, there r many things u still didn't reply)
2. Can't classifiy users based on their task as stated in Software Engineering, IEEE etc and argue the facts!
3. Can't stick to ur own request of stating "end-users" experience and jump outta topic wheneva u feel like
4. Can't even debate properly in ur excited state and can't differentiate and judge which words shud be brought in debates and what kinda comparable and logical examples to be given. E.g that absurd doctor example
5. Can't even give a proper advice like about parallels and later @Andy saying that ur advice was strange!
6. Quite confidently exhibited ur childishness all the way specially the image of that finger of mine which u have stored in ur hardisk and posted here to make urself see it clearly and properly in larger size. 
7. Many more,etc

Witnessing all this from u, u actually lost mah interest in debating with u. U better reply to all those previous posts of mine before asking me to give u further enlightenment!


@aryayush : @Andy is a B.Com guy and probably knew or understood what I said! Want Proof?? Read below


			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> What I meant was that it is bundled with the package. Not free as in free beer.


So @aayush, u may ask the same question about "free" to @Andy. And since he is a B.Com guy, he may be able to explain actually better than me! Now do ask him and don't sit quiet!


			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> then it is FREE. Free as in free beer!


No its not! And ask @Andy how. It seems ur too innocent!



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> mediator said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Say what the @Andy part or the highlighted part?? If ur asking about Andy part, then go back n read again?? If ur asking about the hilighted part then if don't mind to read a little bit more carefully then u'll see clearly that I have written "as if". Now shud I enlighten u about English learning tooo??



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> I know you are now going to quote my message, bolden some statements and then say how 'absurd, ignorant, foolish' they are (since these seem to be the only words in your severely limited vocabulary) and then proceed to tell me what my dad would have thought about it. *It has become so routine that it seems boring to read through your tirade now, frankly!*


Atleast the words are better and ethical then ur words, the few words that u have learnt like "su**er" etc in ur skool days in the state of ur childishness and utter them thinking that they make u look quite fancy and modern. People don't realise that these words when spoken that confidently in public actually make them look quite stupid and pathetic! And ofcors if u can radiate ur nature so well with these words, then I guess u shud make urself comfortable with them n front ur dad. Wat say?? Now u'll really surprise me if u say that ur already speak with such words in front of ur dad!  
As for the highlighted part, thats a well known fact in debates that a person utters such words when he grows frustrated n can't reason appropriately and has run outta his points! Frankly!  
And why do u keep on posting "frankly" after ur personal comments like a child. Aren't ur other opinions and posts frank??

So do ask @andy about that "free" thing!


----------



## gxsaurav (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

i was taking part in this thread, just cos of the workstation apps discussion, but since now u r again getting personal like u always do, i m backing off...can't argue with a mod who wants to run things his own way

u still have not replied, how do u know they use Mac in Star news etc? Source plz


----------



## FatBeing (Nov 27, 2006)

*Re: Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.*

Thread cleaned (sort of - PM me if I've missed anything)

It's a shame that this had to be locked because a few people didn't understand the implication of a civilised debate. 

Next flamer gets an IP ban; excuses like "He started it" will earn an additional 10,000 mails from a spambot of your choice.


----------



## aryayush (Nov 27, 2006)

Thanks! 
__________
So, have the Linux users got any valid points to make?


----------



## mediator (Nov 27, 2006)

Quote and Tell which one wasn't valid!


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## aryayush (Nov 28, 2006)

Well, I can only remember one point that the operating system and most of the apps are open source and that is something you guys like about Linux.
As for me, I do not have a problem with proprietary software so I don't mind the fact that I cannot modify the source code of Mac OS X.

And apart from that, no one has posted any points in favour of Linux.


----------



## mediator (Nov 28, 2006)

Well aayush being open-source is itself a big advantage. U may google to find the differences between open and closed source softwares that are not even listed in this forum. U wanted an end-users experience and comparison. Well I stated from the start that only 3-4 people can write about it. Linux is free and that itself is a very big advantage. 
Yea it doesn't have all of the required softwares in the free version. BUt u can always download the softwares and make the OS complete with required softwares. It just takes u around 2 hrs. ISn't that a negligible trade-off for price which is zero??

Also I like that some linux distros aren't bundled with all of the softwares. 

Like the UBUNTU Edgy that I have installed on my laptop. Since my laptop has only 40 GB of space of which I have allocated 10 GB to linux, I prefered UBUNTU here. I installed only the minimum softwares that are needed to make me work comfortably without any problems.

Now compare it to my primary desktop OS fedora 5. I have allocated 50 GB to linux partition. Fedora is a montrously bundled distro that comes loaded in 4-5 cds. Wheneva I'm free and OS/PC is not in use I just fire the most easy way of install that is thru command line. Yes there is GUI available too for updating. But I prefer commandline coz I can use the wildcards in it. That is again *another big advantage commandline has over GUI*. So I just fire up yum, use wild cards and keep installing all sorta softwares available in the repositories.

So having a Linux distro with minimum softwares is also nice in some cases. 

MAc may be good as u and @andy said. I don't argue that as I know nuthing about MAC. But all the way I emphasised on how commandline can be much better than GUI and how LINUX is getting extremely easy to work with.

So, since u already hijacked the session with end-users experience which only few people can discuss, then how can anyone write in favour of linux? U as a thread creator urself suppressed the Linux advantages and wanted to talk on end-users experience. HAve a full fledged debate and u'll find people talking in favour Linux.

Neways, today many people as end-users are quite happy and satisfied with latest Linux distros which are going easier and more and more user friendly with each distro released and competetition between the various Linux vendors is what alone contributing to that rising popularity,ease and user-friendliness .


----------



## aryayush (Nov 28, 2006)

Even if I concede that the command line method might be better for doing certain tasks, how does it make Linux better than a Mac? Yes, it makes Linux better than Windows, but the Terminal on a Macintosh can do pretty much everything the Linux Terminal can, both operating systems having a similar UNIX base.
As far as the open source discussion goes - well, it has its disadvantages too. If you are not using Novel's SUSE Linux, you cannot use proprietary software on your distro. (I am not absolutely certain about this point, but I have heard that there are some major licensing issues.) Please correct me if I am wrong!

And I have used both Macintosh and Linux (albiet for a very short period), so here are some of the advantages that Macs have over Linux:
1. Very versatile method of capturing screenshots. You can capture the whole screen, just the desktop, a particular selection or any particular window.
2. Hot Corners. Just drag your mouse to the screen edges to activate useful features like Exposé (all windows, application windows, desktop), Dashboard and Screensaver. Use it once and you'll wish your screen had just one more corner.
3. Exposé (it's reason enough to make the switch to a Macintosh).
4. Brilliant UI. You just have to see the slick animations to believe it. The sliding windows, smooth scrolling, dock magnification, dashboard zooming, folding sheets, cube animated desktops, genie and scale effect of maximising/minimising windows, warp, fade, etc.
5. Just press 'Ctrl' and scroll your mouse, the whole screen zooms in. It's a very useful feature.
6. System wide dictionary and spell checking. Just press 'Command + Ctrl + D' and roll your mouse over any word on the screen to see an instant definition attached to the mouse.
7. Complete support for drag-and-drop. When you are dragging something with the mouse (and that includes files, pictures, movies and even text), you can press and button on the keyboard, use the screen corners and the item will still remain attached to the mouse. When you roll your mouse over some folder, the folder will spring open. This means you can literally anything from anywhere to any other place.
8. The ability to use two fingers for the secondary click and scrolling functions is so much simpler to use than a secondary button for right clicking and two stupid demarcated lines for scrolling (this is a laptop specific feature).

Yes, I know that some of it sounds very trivial, but when you use it on a regular basis, you will realise that it makes for a much faster and satisfactory experience. I also know that Compiz, Beryl, XGL, etc. can enable loads of graphical effects and Exposé functionality on any Linux distro but it is not something your regular user can enable. I tried to do it but it sounded very difficult. The command line method was virtually impossible for me, and the graphical method (for which I found only one tutorial) wasn't too easy either.

These are just some of the many advantages of using Apple software (and hardware). Even if you do a direct debate between Macintosh and Linux, the only advantage that Linux enjoys is that it is free (yes, it is a big advantage, no doubt), but it can never match the experience of using a Mac.


----------



## subratabera (Nov 28, 2006)

Don't you think that Linux is emerging too fast to catch the MAC or Windows functionality (I mean GUI for everything)...As you know it is a community driven development approach, so the development can't go as smooth as Windows or MAC...Have some patience and you will find everything you are looking for on Linux also, *VERY SOON*...


----------



## aryayush (Nov 28, 2006)

We will see that as it comes but we are talking about the present here. At present, it does not hold a candle to the Mac platform.
And what do you think? Will Apple's engineers sit on their asses doing nothing while Linux thrives? The Mac OS will also be kept updated and will remain the leader of the pack, as it is now. We are soon going to see Leopard which has the incredible 'Time Machine' feature. I can't wait to use it.


----------



## subratabera (Nov 28, 2006)

You are absolutely correct. Those, who have money to spent on a good OS will always have the option to switch to MAC or Windows. But think of those people around the globe who need a good computing environment but can't spend too much for it. Linux will be a great tool for them, and certainly a viable alternative...


----------



## mail2and (Nov 28, 2006)

mediator said:
			
		

> MAc may be good as u and @andy said. I don't argue that as I know nuthing about MAC. But all the way I emphasised on how commandline can be much better than GUI and how LINUX is getting extremely easy to work with.



First, for the love of god, it is Mac, and not MAC. MAC is a cosmetics company.

I didn't get your point about Command line. You can do everything on a Mac using Terminal, too. What was your point?


----------



## subratabera (Nov 28, 2006)

mail2and said:
			
		

> First, for the love of god, it is Mac, and not MAC. MAC is a cosmetics company.



Oops. You see, we know nothing about MAC, err Mac.


----------



## mail2and (Nov 28, 2006)

subratabera said:
			
		

> Oops. You see, we know nothing about MAC, err Mac.



It's never too late to learn.


----------



## subratabera (Nov 28, 2006)

Can you give me the list of softwares (Office, Internet, Games, Graphic etc.) that comes preinstalled with Mac (just for comparison purpose)...


----------



## mail2and (Nov 28, 2006)

subratabera said:
			
		

> Can you give me the list of softwares (Office, Internet, Games, Graphic etc.) that comes preinstalled with Mac (just for comparison purpose)...



Office(only on PPC Macs)-  AppleWorks

Internet- iChat(connects with AIM), Safari- Browser based on Konqueror

Graphics(Here comes the good part)- iMovie, iDvd, iPhoto. Movies made with iMovie have been screened at Cannes.

There are quite a lot of other software, too. If you tell me the task, I can suggest software for the same.


----------



## aryayush (Nov 28, 2006)

I am giving you the list. Wait just a sec...


----------



## mehulved (Nov 28, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> As far as the open source discussion goes - well, it has its disadvantages too. If you are not using Novel's SUSE Linux, you cannot use proprietary software on your distro. (I am not absolutely certain about this point, but I have heard that there are some major licensing issues.) Please correct me if I am wrong!


As an end user no one can stop you from installing anything, even cracked software, too.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> 1. Very versatile method of capturing screenshots. You can capture the whole screen, just the desktop, a particular selection or any particular window.


Yes it's possible in Linux AFAIK. See Ksnapshot


			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> 2. Hot Corners. Just drag your mouse to the screen edges to activate useful features like Exposé (all windows, application windows, desktop), Dashboard and Screensaver. Use it once and you'll wish your screen had just one more corner.


 I didn't get that


			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> 3. Exposé (it's reason enough to make the switch to a Macintosh).


 No idea about what it is and how it works


			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> 4. Brilliant UI. You just have to see the slick animations to believe it. The sliding windows, smooth scrolling, dock magnification, dashboard zooming, folding sheets, cube animated desktops, genie and scale effect of maximising/minimising windows, warp, fade, etc.


With arrivals of 3D desktops this is possible in Windows and Linux too now.


			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> 5. Just press 'Ctrl' and scroll your mouse, the whole screen zooms in. It's a very useful feature.


Never seen that so no idea.


			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> 6. System wide dictionary and spell checking. Just press 'Command + Ctrl + D' and roll your mouse over any word on the screen to see an instant definition attached to the mouse.


Possible with stardict


			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> 7. Complete support for drag-and-drop. When you are dragging something with the mouse (and that includes files, pictures, movies and even text), you can press and button on the keyboard, use the screen corners and the item will still remain attached to the mouse. When you roll your mouse over some folder, the folder will spring open. This means you can literally anything from anywhere to any other place.


Don't think this is there


			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> 8. The ability to use two fingers for the secondary click and scrolling functions is so much simpler to use than a secondary button for right clicking and two stupid demarcated lines for scrolling (this is a laptop specific feature).


 dunno


----------



## aryayush (Nov 28, 2006)

*MACINTOSH APPLICATIONS*​
*Finder*: Your home on the Mac, Finder gives you lots of options for locating, displaying and organizing all your files and folders. From the power of Spotlight search technology to the flexibility of customizable item views, Mac OS X Finder truly shows your Mac at a glance.

*Address Book*: Stay connected to all your friends and family, easily. Mac OS X Tiger Address Book 4 works seamlessly across the entire system, offering your contacts in a Dashboard widget, Spotlight-driven Smart Groups, iChat and iCal integration as well as automatic .Mac and Bluetooth-enabled device syncing.

*Automator*: Automator is an innovative personal automation assistant that makes it easy to automate repetitive tasks. Automator lets you skip the complex programming and scripting that is normally required to create automations. Individual steps called actions can be assembled into a complete task by dragging actions into an Automator workflow. You can run your completed workflows repeatedly, and even share them with others.

*Calculator*: Calculator is more than just a number cruncher. Work mathematical miracles with this convenient tool.

*Chess*: You can play chess against your Mac or another person, or watch your Mac play against itself. You can choose the level of difficulty for each game, get hints from the computer, and even make moves using spoken commands.

*Comic Life*: Comic Life makes creating digital comics a snap. Use Comic Life to produce high quality comics for posting on the web, including in a movie or printing out for friends.

*Dashboard*: Check the time, watch the weather, track flights, view stock prices and find a local restaurant. Instantly. With a single click, the Dashboard zooms across your Desktop, giving you fast access to nifty widgets designed for fun as well as function. Bundled widgets are: Address Book, Business, Calculator, Calendar, Dictionary, ESPN, Flight Tracker, Google, iTunes, People, Ski Report, Stickies, Stocks, Tile Game, Translation, Unit Converter, Weather and World Clock.

*Dictionary*: Words at your fingertips. Nouns, verbs, synonyms; Dictionary has them all and more.

*DVD Player*: Use DVD Player to watch DVD movies on your computer. You can watch movies recorded on standard DVD discs or view DVD projects that are stored on your hard disk.

*Font Book*: Font Book makes it easy to install, preview, organize, and manage your fonts.

*Front Row*: Dazzle your friends with an elegant full-screen media display. Front Row transforms movie night into a blockbuster Hollywood premiere — and you can preview Hollywood blockbusters from the Apple.com QuickTime movie trailer website. Control the mood of the room with instant access to iTunes music and playlists. View slideshows from your iPhoto library, complete with transitions and music. Watch home movies, music videos, TV shows, and more. Hit play and pass the popcorn. Enjoy your music, video, photos and DVDs exactly as you wish.

*GarageBand*: You can use GarageBand to easily create your own original music to share with the world. You create a GarageBand music project by recording Real and Software Instruments, adding loops, arranging and mixing your project, then sending your finished project to iTunes or another iLife application.

*iCal*: iCal is a personal calendar application that lets you easily keep track of appointments, view multiple calendars at the same time, share your calendar information with others, and more.

*iChat*: iChat AV is a great way to send instant messages. You can stay in touch with people all over the world using full-screen video, audio, and text. With iChat AV you can video conference right from your desktop with up to three people, or audio conference with up to nine people. And no long-distance charges.

*iDVD*: When it comes time to share your music, photos, and movies with others, there's no better way to do it than with a DVD. And iDVD is the perfect way to collect all the pieces of your digital life in one place and share them with others.

*Image Capture*: Capture images from a camera or scanner, and then share them with your friends.

*iMovie HD*: iMovie has always been the best way to easily import video from your digital camcorder, edit your movie with an assortment of stunning visual and audio effects, and then share it with family and friends.

*Internet Connect*: Use Internet Connect to dial your ISP, establish a PPPoE connection, or connect to an AirPort network.

*iPhoto*: iPhoto has always been the best way to easily import photos from your digital camera, organize them for fast retrieval, and then share them with family and friends.

*iSync*: iSync is synchronization software that helps you manage contact and calendar information on your Mac OS computer and devices, such as an iSync-compatible Bluetooth or USB mobile phone, a Palm OS device, or an iPod.

*iTunes*: iTunes is software that makes it easy to play and organize music, movies, TV shows, podcasts, and more. You can take your music and video collection with you by synchronizing your iTunes library with your iPod, Apple's portable music and video player.

*iWeb*: iWeb is an application you can use to easily create a professional-looking website.

*Mail*: Use the Mail application to send and receive email messages. You can set up multiple email accounts and easily customize Mail to fit your needs.

*OmniOutliner*: We all have ideas knocking around in our heads. OmniOutliner is for getting those ideas out into the open where you can see them, shuffle them around, neatly present them, and share them with other people. With it, you can quickly jot down notes into a list, or you can forge monumental masses of information into shape with pixel-by-pixel precision.

*Photo Booth*: Take digital photos of yourself. Use them for your user account picture, iChat buddy icon, and more.

*Preview*: Preview lets you read PDF documents, view images, and take screenshots.

*QuickTime Player*: QuickTime Player is a free multimedia player. You can use it to view many kinds of files, including video, audio, still images, graphics, and virtual reality (VR) movies. QuickTime supports the most popular formats on the Internet for news, sports, education, movie trailers, and other entertainment.

*Safari*: Mac OS X includes Safari to make it easy for you to browse the Internet. Safari quickly and accurately displays the websites you visit, thanks to its Mac OS X underpinnings and its strict compliance to web standards. In addition, Safari's innovative features let you perform Google searches from the address bar, scan articles from several websites in one window with RSS, organize bookmarks of your favorite websites, and much more. Find out what you can do with Safari as you explore the Web.

*Sherlock*: Find what you're looking for in Sherlock channels. View local movie listings, get stock prices, track auction items, and more.

*Stickies*: Need to jot down a phone number or make a quick shopping list? Use Stickies to leave little reminders where they won't get lost: right on your computer's desktop.

*System Preferences*: Choose settings to customize your Mac OS X experience. It's Tiger tailored to your specific needs.

*TextEdit*: Write a note; write a novel; write a letter; write a webpage. View almost any text document, or create your own. TextEdit is a word processor that is both powerful and easy to use.

Other Utilities include: Activity Monitor, AirPort Admin Utility, AirPort Setup Assistant, Audio MIDI Setup, Bluetooth File Exchange, ColorSync Utility, Console, DigiColor Meter, Directory Access, Disk Utility, Grab, Grapher, Installer, Keychain Access, Migration Assistant, NetInfo Manager, Network Utility, ODBC Administrator, Printer Setup Utility, System Profiler, Terminal and VoiceOver Utility.

Also includes AppleScript Utility and Editor; and trial versions of iWork '06 (Keynote and Pages) and FileMaker Pro 8.


----------



## mediator (Nov 28, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> Even if I concede that the command line method might be better for doing certain tasks, how does it make Linux better than a Mac?


I never said it makes linux better than any other OS. U talked about commandline, had a false notion about it. So I only tried to remove that rumour people have about commandline. So some of the advantages of commandline over GUI were already elaborated by me. And believe me commandline does make ur computing much efficient in some cases reducing the number of clicks dramatically.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> As far as the open source discussion goes - well, it has its disadvantages too. If you are not using Novel's SUSE Linux, you cannot use proprietary software on your distro. (I am not absolutely certain about this point, but I have heard that there are some major licensing issues.) Please correct me if I am wrong!


I used suse only a couple of times when I was a noobie to linux world. It was easy but I had suse 9.1 personal (1 Cd + no internet connection). It was ok for a laymann to work but i needed gcc and g++ too.
So i dunno much about suse and don't want to spread false notions and rumours. What ur saying may be correct for SUSE, I dunno. But there are other distros too that can act as primary desktop OS on ur PC.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> And I have used both Macintosh and Linux (albiet for a very short period), so here are some of the advantages that Macs have over Linux:
> 1. Very versatile method of capturing screenshots. You can capture the whole screen, just the desktop, a particular selection or any particular window.
> 2. Hot Corners. Just drag your mouse to the screen edges to activate useful features like Exposé (all windows, application windows, desktop), Dashboard and Screensaver. Use it once and you'll wish your screen had just one more corner.
> 3. Exposé (it's reason enough to make the switch to a Macintosh).
> ...


Yea mac may have such advantages. But do u really use all such features? Linux also has much to offer today, but I only use the functionalities that are relevant to me. 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Yes, I know that some of it sounds very trivial, but when you use it on a regular basis, you will realise that it makes for a much faster and satisfactory experience. I also know that Compiz, Beryl, XGL, etc. can enable loads of graphical effects and Exposé functionality on any Linux distro but it is not something your regular user can enable. I tried to do it but it sounded very difficult. The command line method was virtually impossible for me, and the graphical method (for which I found only one tutorial) wasn't too easy either.


Much Fancy stuff doesn't really excites me. I dunno about such features (only acquainted) and haven't enabled them on my distros (Ubuntu,fedora). May be @mehul can shed some light here.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> These are just some of the many advantages of using Apple software (and hardware). Even if you do a direct debate between Macintosh and Linux, the only advantage that Linux enjoys is that it is free (yes, it is a big advantage, no doubt), but it can never match the experience of using a Mac.


May be, but as I classified users before(on basis of Software Engineering,IEEE), the classification can also be done on basis of age. Children like to play games. Does mac offer high end games? Students generally have limited pocket money, they don't like to spend extravagantly. Hence pirated windows or Linux are obvious choices for them. So mac may be easier than windows or Linux, but if the work can be done easily on both pirated windows and linux which are freely available, then I guess it wud be hard for users to make a switch and invest money to work on something easier.
I wud be glad to install Mac OS X if it can be installed on my current PC. But u already demoralised me with ur verdict.



			
				subratabera said:
			
		

> Oops. You see, we know nothing about MAC, err Mac.


Correct!  sorry @andy didn't knwo that!



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> I didn't get your point about Command line. You can do everything on a Mac using Terminal, too. What was your point?


I hope u got my point now! I just wanted to clear doubts people have about commandline and think its a difficult thing and GUI is always better than it !

@aryayush : U showed the packages available for Mac. I don't know if thats all Mac has, but have u ever looked at fedora and ubuntu's repositories?? I have seen them both. The number of packages available is just mind boggling. I'm sorry that I can't show u the packages as it won't fit in one screen! But if u ever install Ubuntu again, then please do take a look urself and then tell the comparison here!
Neways as I said only some of the packages are relevant for u!


----------



## eddie (Nov 28, 2006)

2. Active Desktop Borders in KDE
3. Kompose
5. Ctrl+Alt+ {+ or -} (Plus Minus Signs)
7. KDE Drag-and-Drop


----------



## aryayush (Nov 28, 2006)

mediator said:
			
		

> I used suse only a couple of times when I was a noobie to linux world. It was easy but I had suse 9.1 personal (1 Cd + no internet connection). It was ok for a laymann to work but i needed gcc and g++ too.
> So i dunno much about suse and don't want to spread false notions and rumours. What ur saying may be correct for SUSE, I dunno. But there are other distros too that can act as primary desktop OS on ur PC.


Uh... I think you misunderstood my statement. I said that SUSE is the better one because you can legally run proprietary software on it (again, I am not very sure about this).



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Yea mac may have such advantages. But do u really use all such features? Linux also has much to offer today, but I only use the functionalities that are relevant to me.


Yes, I (and most Mac users) use the functions I listed on a regular basis. I lookup words in the Dictionary, zoom in on websites which have small images or text, capture screenshots, scroll and right click, use Exposé, etc. everyday. I did not bother listing the functions that I don't use (such as saving any text file as a PDF document).
And anyway, in a platform vs. platform debate, all the features count, not only the features specific to the poster.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Much Fancy stuff doesn't really excites me. I dunno about such features (only acquainted) and haven't enabled them on my distros (Ubuntu,fedora). May be @mehul can shed some light here.


So what? You may not want them but most people do. And if you use a Mac once, you will be bored by the bland interface of Windows and Linux. You won't be saying you don't want those features once you have witnessed them. Yes, it's possible to enable some of those effects on Linux too, but it is a very demanding procedure and most users would just end up trashing their operating system while trying to enable those effects.

May be, but as I classified users before(on basis of Software Engineering,IEEE), the classification can also be done on basis of age. Children like to play games. Does mac offer high end games?[/quote]Yes, it does. Not many, yes, but there is a quite a handy selection of games availble for the Macintosh platform.
Yes, Macs lack in the gaming department, no doubt - but Linux users aren't better off either.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> @aryayush : U showed the packages available for Mac. I don't know if thats all Mac has, but have u ever looked at fedora and ubuntu's repositories?? I have seen them both. The number of packages available is just mind boggling. I'm sorry that I can't show u the packages as it won't fit in one screen!


I have a 1680x1050 resolution monitor and my list did not fit on the screen either! 



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> But if u ever install Ubuntu again, then please do take a look urself and then tell the comparison here!


OK. I'll do that. Installing Ubuntu on Parallels using a disk image stored on the hard drive is hardly a fifteen minute job.


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## mehulved (Nov 28, 2006)

You can legally install all proprietory softwares on any distro, unless there are restrictions in your country eg. USA, no bother here in India. But they can't be bundled along with the distro. 
Almost all the features you mentioned have some counterparts in Linux and they've been listed by me and eddie. Maybe a few here and there are missing. But, same goes vice versa.


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## mediator (Nov 28, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> So what? You may not want them but most people do. And if you use a Mac once, you will be bored by the bland interface of Windows and Linux. You won't be saying you don't want those features once you have witnessed them. Yes, it's possible to enable some of those effects on Linux too, but it is a very demanding procedure and most users would just end up trashing their operating system while trying to enable those effects.


Yea I agree most people want it but it doesn't really interest me. Neways I have googled a lot for images of mac,linux,windows. But I really didn't find how mac's desktop/interface looked better than window's or Linux's. U may post the best desktop screenshot of Mac here if u think it can change my opinion.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Yes, Macs lack in the gaming department, no doubt - but Linux users aren't better off either.


Thats correct, but Linux is surely improving! See some nice games posted by @subratabera here => *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41048

Neways what I meant here was, if Mac wants to see large number of users, then ofcors Gaming is one of the most important field it shud be strong in and linux being free is achieving new milestones in gaming department too.    



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> OK. I'll do that. Installing Ubuntu on Parallels using a disk image stored on the hard drive is hardly a fifteen minute job.


Yea please do so and update the apt-get before posting the results! Remember Ubuntu is debian based which means it can use the packages from debian's repositories tooo! So u may take a look at debian's repositories toooo.


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## aryayush (Nov 28, 2006)

OK. Here's what I found:

*Ubuntu = Tiger equivalents*
Gnome *<* Finder
Archive Manager *>* Built-in (limited)
Calculator (lacks Paper Tape and Conversion tools) *<* Calculator
Character Map *>* NIL
Dictionary (not system wide) *<* Dictionary
Disk Usage Analyzer *<* System Monitor and Disk Utility
Take Screenshot (have to resort to using the Terminal for advanced functions) *<* Built-in and Preview
Terminal *=* Terminal
Text Editor (only plain text documents; no customisation) *<* TextEdit (not tabbed)
F-Spot Photo Manager *<* iPhoto
GIMP Image Editor *>* NIL
gThumb Image Viewer (lacks support for PDF documents) *<* Preview
XSane Image Scanner (limited to input from scanner) *<* Image Capture
Ekiga Softphone *>* NIL
Evolution Mail *=* Mail
Firefox Web Browser *>* Safari
Gaim Internet Messenger (lacks audio/video conferencing) *<* iChat (lacks support for most networks)
Terminal Server Client (WTF is this anyway!) *<>* ???
Openoffice.org Database *>* NIL
Openoffice.org Presentation *>* NIL
Openoffice.org Spreadsheet *>* NIL
Openoffice.org Word Processor *>* TextEdit (severely limited)
Movie Player (plays nothing) *<* QuickTime Player and iTunes
Rhtythmbox Music Player (plays nothing; lacks support for podcasts, TV shows, etc.) *<* iTunes and QuickTime Player
Serpentine Audio CD Creator *<* GarageBand and iTunes
Sound Juicer CD Extractor *=* iTunes
Sound Recorder (severely limited) *<* GarageBand

*Tiger = Ubuntu equivalents*
Finder *>* Gnome
Address Book *>* ???
Automator *>* NIL
Calculator *>* Calculator (lacks Paper Tape and Conversion tools)
Comic Life *>* NIL
Dashboard *>* NIL
Dictionary *>* Dictionary (not system wide)
DVD Player *>* NIL
Font Book *>* Character Map (severely limited)
Front Row *>* NIL
GarageBand *>* Serpentine Audio CD Creator and Sound Recorder (severely limited)
iCal *>* ???
iChat (lacks support for most networks) *>* Gaim Instant Messenger (lacks audio/video conferencing)
iDVD *>* NIL
Image Capture *>* XSane Image Scanner (limited to input from scanners)
iMovie HD *>* NIL
iPhoto *>* F-Spot Photo Manager
iSync *>* Various applications (very limited)
iTunes *>* Rhtythmbox Music Player (plays nothing; lacks support for podcasts, TV shows, etc.)
iWeb *>* NIL
Mail *=* Evolution Mail
OmniOutliner *>* NIL
Photo Booth *>* NIL
Preview *>* gThumb Image Viewer (lacks support for PDF documents)
QuickTime Player *>* Movie Player (plays nothing)
Safari *<* Firefox Web Browser
Sherlock *>* NIL
Stickies *>* NIL
TextEdit (not tabbed) *>* Text Editor (only plain text documents; no customisation)

*Legend*
??? - Not found
<> - Undecided
= - Equal
Worse < Better


Yes, you cannot work with your Excel, Powerpoint and Access documents and cannot put yourself next to Aishwarya Rai on a default installation of Mac OS X but you can do pretty much everything else you can do on a default installation of Ubuntu. However, there are a lot of bundled applications in Mac OS X, the equivalents of which are nowhere to be seen on Ubuntu. Add to this the user interface of the Macintosh and you have a clear winner. 

I did this application-by-application matchup only because mediator and subratabera wanted it. However, I do not believe that this is the correct way of comparing two operating systems because most applications are either available for all platforms or have sustainable alternatives. Two OSes should be compared on the basis of the user interface and intuitiveness, and the Macintosh has a clear lead in the department.


----------



## mediator (Nov 28, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> Yes, you cannot work with your Excel, Powerpoint and Access documents and cannot put yourself next to Aishwarya Rai on a default installation of Mac OS X but you can do pretty much everything else you can do on a default installation of Ubuntu. However, there are a lot of bundled applications in Mac OS X, the equivalents of which are nowhere to be seen on Ubuntu. Add to this the user interface of the Macintosh and you have a clear winner.


That was an expected verdict! But i guess there are flaws in ur comparison! For various "dvd" containing lines u have Xine,mplayer,VLC player etc instead of which u marked with NIL! If propreitary Mac doesn't have excel,word etc i.e major things an end-users need on default installation, then in free Linux OS some missing codecs shouldn't bother u either!

The places where u have marked with "plays nothng", it seems u gave ur general verdict without exploring the Linux world. Install the codecs too that are there in UBUNTU's repositories and then compare again. It seems u didn't really explored the UBUNTU repositories. Also in the next post of urs, please describe about the functionality of corresponding software on Mac so that I and all the people here can also give their verdict. So, check Ubuntu's repository again, see the codecs there. Also take a look at debians repositories.

Also u didn't post some impressive screenshot of Mac and its interfaces. Please do so and post the best screenshot that u can! 

Neways still I'm talking about free linux and not about propreitary linux.


----------



## aryayush (Nov 28, 2006)

mediator said:
			
		

> That was an expected verdict! But i guess there are flaws in ur comparison! For various "dvd" containing lines u have Xine,mplayer,VLC player etc instead of which u marked with NIL! If propreitary Mac doesn't have excel,word etc i.e major things an end-users need on default installation, then in free Linux OS some missing codecs shouldn't bother u either!


Well, I did say that comparing applications would not really help determine which OS was better. When comparing default installations, Mac OS X Tiger bundles much more software than Ubuntu and that is what I have demonstrated here.
As for Excel, Word, etc. being major things and DVD playing capabilities secondary, that depends from person-to-person. I, for one, have never used Excel or Access. And I do not need Powerpoint or Word's functionality because TextEdit suffices my needs. However, I play DVDs on a regular basis and that is a very essential requirement as far as I am concerned. Yes, maybe you have a job where you have to use Excel a lot and you are not much of a movie watcher. In that case, the scenario will be the opposite. And you can always install OpenOffice on a Mac too.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> The places where u have marked with "plays nothng", it seems u gave ur general verdict without exploring the Linux world. Install the codecs too that are there in UBUNTU's repositories and then compare again. It seems u didn't really explored the UBUNTU repositories.


This time, I could not test the applications with various movie files because Ubuntu wouldn't read my DVDs and CDs. So it's not my fault.
However, I have tried playing media files on Ubuntu in the past. It just gives me some error about the media not being supported and that's it. It does not offer to download the codecs like QuickTime Player and Windows Media Player do.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Also in the next post of urs, please describe about the functionality of corresponding software on Mac so that I and all the people here can also give their verdict.


On a standard Mac installation, you can play the following formats without any third-party interferance: MP3, AAC, AIFF, WAV, MP4, MOV, MPG, AVI, DAT (and maybe some more). Obviously, you can also play DVDs (directly from media or stored on your hard drive). If you want to know some specific software's functionality, let me know.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Also u didn't post some impressive screenshot of Mac and its interfaces. Please do so and post the best screenshot that u can!


I don't think I have any need to convince anyone how superb the Macintosh GUI is. Everyone knows it's the best in the business, including the likes of gxsaurav. Still, I'll try to find some impressive screenshots (or snap some).
__________
Click on the following screenshot:

*www.tachypic.com/thumb/2430.jpeg

It's a picture of a Safari window being minimised and on the left is a sheet folding downwards.

Pictures won't do justice to the user interface of the Macintosh. Go to some Apple authorised reseller in your area and have them show you a demo.


----------



## mail2and (Nov 28, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> OK. Here's what I found:
> 
> *Ubuntu = Tiger equivalents*
> Gnome *<* Finder
> ...


Firstly, the file manager of KDE, Konqueror, is the best among the lot(Finder, Winblows Explorer etc.)

Safari, as it is based on Konqueror, is a better browser than Firefox. I am not sure here but the KHTML engine is considered much better than the Gecko Engine.

There is a Character Map and a Character Palette in OS X, too.

Gaim is available for both OS X as well as Linux. You can compile Gaim using XII or you can use Adium, which is a IM based on libgaim.

iChat supports the Jabber protocol. So, you can use Yahoo, MSN, GTalk etc on iChat.

There is an office suite available for PPC Macs. It is called AppleWorks. So, you can create and edit all Word, Excel etc files with this suite. It comes bundled with PPC macs.

Besides, almost all Linux programs can be run on OS X using XII, Fink or Darwinports. So, I don't see the point in comparing Linux apps with Mac ones.

@mediator- You can check out my post on the first page. I have mentioned about some features of OS X that I liked and I've linked some pics, too.

There are various other small features like Spring loaded folders, which can only be known, when you use the OS for a while. It sort of grows on you. For example: I am so used to Exposé that I feel out of place when I use another OS. I habitually press the middle mouse button to activate Exposé.

One thing about Apple is that you will not get Fischer Price themes on OS X. All those shades of black, transparent glass etc won't be included on OS X, ever. Apple believes in making the UI simple, but elegant. I feel Leopard will include the Unified interface, making OS X look more professional and elegant. Here is a rough example of how the UI might look in Leopard.

*img87.imageshack.us/img87/9453/picture44ev2.th.jpg


*img89.imageshack.us/img89/8339/picture45ng2.th.jpg

But, then, Linux distros are really becoming user friendly, and as Mehul and I feel, they will give serious competition to Windows in a couple of years time. However, as OS X is limited to Apple hardware, any person who buys Mac hardware pays for the OS(although indirectly), so I don't think that Linux is as much a threat to OS X as it is to Windows.(Considering the argument that you can install most Linux apps on OS X, too.)
__________
I forgot to add this to my previous post.

You can host your own website on OS X. Here are the steps involved. Go to System Preferences, click on _Sharing_, check the _Personal Web Sharing_ option. That's it you're done!

*img89.imageshack.us/img89/2690/picture46cs1.th.jpg

Now, go to your home folder and put your files in the Sites folder. Now, anyone can access your website on *yourip/~username

*img142.imageshack.us/img142/4605/picture47ce1.th.jpg

No installation, no configuration is involved. Here is the site that I have hosted on my computer. *anandbatra.sytes.net

Here is the ctrl+cmd+d dictionary thing Ayush was talking about:

*img299.imageshack.us/img299/4076/picdictna5.th.jpg

Also, Ayush, you can use Quicksilver for launching apps, rather than keeping all icons on the desktop. It takes the same time on quicksilver as it does to move your cursor and click on the icon. Spotlight, however, takes half a second more to do the same thing.


----------



## mehulved (Nov 28, 2006)

Just see these and you'll see how different Linux is. I can provide missing ones for Linux and andy for OS X
*Ubuntu = Tiger equivalents*
Gnome *<* Finder - try KDE here
Archive Manager *>* Built-in (limited)
Calculator (lacks Paper Tape and Conversion tools) *<* Calculator - Kcalc
Character Map *>* NIL - as andy said there's one in OS X
Dictionary (not system wide) *<* Dictionary - As I said before StarDict
Disk Usage Analyzer *<* System Monitor and Disk Utility - System Monitoring and Disk Utilities are different programs in Linux
Take Screenshot (have to resort to using the Terminal for advanced functions) *<* Built-in and Preview - see Ksnapshot it doesn't require terminal
Terminal *=* Terminal
Text Editor (only plain text documents; no customisation) *<* TextEdit (not tabbed) - gedit plugins and also kate. Find me any text editor in the world that can match vi and Emacs, though they're actually CLI but there are front ends to both but catch is both have a learning curve. That's the versatility of Linux from something that's really simple to something that's very functional but difficult to learn
F-Spot Photo Manager *<* iPhoto
GIMP Image Editor *>* NIL
gThumb Image Viewer (lacks support for PDF documents) *<* Preview - any file manager shows preview for pdf's
XSane Image Scanner (limited to input from scanner) *<* Image Capture
Ekiga Softphone *>* NIL
Evolution Mail *=* Mail
Firefox Web Browser *>* Safari - too many options in this criteria to ever compare
Gaim Internet Messenger (lacks audio/video conferencing) *<* iChat (lacks support for most networks) - audio/video is supposed to be coming soon, thankfully
Terminal Server Client (WTF is this anyway!) *<>* ???
Openoffice.org Database *>* NIL
Openoffice.org Presentation *>* NIL
Openoffice.org Spreadsheet *>* NIL
Openoffice.org Word Processor *>* TextEdit (severely limited)
Movie Player (plays nothing) *<* QuickTime Player and iTunes - cos Linux can't bundle proprietory codecs, add win32codecs and it can play almost anything.
Rhtythmbox Music Player (plays nothing; lacks support for podcasts, TV shows, etc.) *<* iTunes and QuickTime Player - see amarok
Serpentine Audio CD Creator *<* GarageBand and iTunes - K3B is usually used to create CD's in Linux
Sound Juicer CD Extractor *=* iTunes
Sound Recorder (severely limited) *<* GarageBand

*Tiger = Ubuntu equivalents*
Finder *>* Gnome
Address Book *>* ??? - Korganiser has one but not sure
Automator *>* NIL - ??? what's that?
Calculator *>* Calculator (lacks Paper Tape and Conversion tools)
Comic Life *>* NIL
Dashboard *>* NIL - there's one for KDE don't remember now, eddie can tell
Dictionary *>* Dictionary (not system wide)
DVD Player *>* NIL
Font Book *>* Character Map (severely limited)
Front Row *>* NIL
GarageBand *>* Serpentine Audio CD Creator and Sound Recorder (severely limited)
iCal *>* ???
iChat (lacks support for most networks) *>* Gaim Instant Messenger (lacks audio/video conferencing)
iDVD *>* NIL
Image Capture *>* XSane Image Scanner (limited to input from scanners)
iMovie HD *>* NIL
iPhoto *>* F-Spot Photo Manager
iSync *>* Various applications (very limited)
iTunes *>* Rhtythmbox Music Player (plays nothing; lacks support for podcasts, TV shows, etc.)
iWeb *>* NIL
Mail *=* Evolution Mail
OmniOutliner *>* NIL
Photo Booth *>* NIL
Preview *>* gThumb Image Viewer (lacks support for PDF documents)
QuickTime Player *>* Movie Player (plays nothing)
Safari *<* Firefox Web Browser
Sherlock *>* NIL
Stickies *>* NIL - tomtom or some such name
TextEdit (not tabbed) *>* Text Editor (only plain text documents; no customisation)

*Legend*
??? - Not found
<> - Undecided
= - Equal
Worse < Better

It's useless to compare OS'es as they come out of the box cos no one will be practically using them as it is. Then again, Apple has the rights to bundle a lot of proprietory programs that linux distros can't. Then again compare prices than the whole comparision becomes lopsided.


----------



## subratabera (Nov 28, 2006)

So you want all that Mac functionality, effects, animation, consistency etc. on Linux for free and don't want to wait for that...STRANGE!!!

Why don't you understand that Linux is not developed under a roof with a team of programmers who can interact with each other and discuss on problems with much more flexibility. Linux is a community effort which takes time and effort to develop something. All the programmers work in a non-consistent manner with little interaction with each other. Beryl is developed in only six months which took 5 years for Microsoft programmers. Don't you think that this is a surprise!!!

So wait for more surprises...And one day who knows all Mac users will switch to Linux.

For eye-candy which also increase funtionality, please refer to this link...


----------



## mail2and (Nov 28, 2006)

subratabera said:
			
		

> So you want all that Mac functionality, effects, animation, consistency etc. on Linux for free and don't want to wait for that...STRANGE!!!
> 
> Why don't you understand that Linux is not developed under a roof with a team of programmers who can interact with each other and discuss on problems with much more flexibility. Linux is a community effort which takes time and effort to develop something. All the programmers work in a non-consistent manner with little interaction with each other. Beryl is developed in only six months which took 5 years for Microsoft programmers. Don't you think that this is a surprise!!!
> 
> ...



When did I say I can't wait for that? I know quite a bit about OSS development, too. I used Linux on my PC before I switched to OS X on my Mac Mini.

And what significance does Microsoft have to a thread on Mac and Linux?

It's interesting how people quote _selectively_.


----------



## QwertyManiac (Nov 28, 2006)

> And I have used both Macintosh and Linux (albiet for a very short period), so here are some of the advantages that Macs have over Linux:
> 1. Very versatile method of capturing screenshots. You can capture the whole screen, just the desktop, a particular selection or any particular window.
> 2. Hot Corners. Just drag your mouse to the screen edges to activate useful features like Exposé (all windows, application windows, desktop), Dashboard and Screensaver. Use it once and you'll wish your screen had just one more corner.
> 3. Exposé (it's reason enough to make the switch to a Macintosh).
> ...


 Hmm...
1. KSnapShot
2. XGL/AIGLX has that too, and its still under development, shows only the windows of now. Quite irritative sometimes if you ask me.
3. Mind telling me what Expose is ? Ahh wait, googled it, its the same as the above point I mentioned. Heh, alt tab scroller of XGL is quite quite better than an edge pointer. Thats my, love thy keyboard.
4. You used XGL/AIGLX, comes close, in development as I already said. Its a feature almost every desktop worthy OS flaunts now.
5. How is zooming on the desktop usefull when all you get to see is pixels, like that accessiblity feature for the low visioned.
6. Enter menu applets and place a dictionary applet there, done. Not as handy though. I know my vocalubary though and googling is much more fun. IMO.
7. Erm... ctrl+c , ctrl + v is much better than pushing all your force on the mouse eh? IMO again.
8. IDK what was that about.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Finder*: Your home on the Mac, Finder gives you lots of options for locating, displaying and organizing all your files and folders. From the power of Spotlight search technology to the flexibility of customizable item views, Mac OS X Finder truly shows your Mac at a glance.

Linux - I dont really think searching for a file is that hard comparing what Linux has as a one-spot storage place for documents under /home, a simple filename and text search option would do for its environment, no mess.

*Address Book*: Stay connected to all your friends and family, easily. Mac OS X Tiger Address Book 4 works seamlessly across the entire system, offering your contacts in a Dashboard widget, Spotlight-driven Smart Groups, iChat and iCal integration as well as automatic .Mac and Bluetooth-enabled device syncing.

Linux - Mmm, Evolution address books can be ported to most apps too.

*Automator*: Automator is an innovative personal automation assistant that makes it easy to automate repetitive tasks. Automator lets you skip the complex programming and scripting that is normally required to create automations. Individual steps called actions can be assembled into a complete task by dragging actions into an Automator workflow. You can run your completed workflows repeatedly, and even share them with others.

Linux - Like macros? I didnt get what automation you mean, scheduled tasks or macros?

*Calculator*: Calculator is more than just a number cruncher. Work mathematical miracles with this convenient tool.

Linux - 

*Chess*: You can play chess against your Mac or another person, or watch your Mac play against itself. You can choose the level of difficulty for each game, get hints from the computer, and even make moves using spoken commands.

Linux -  A simple game it is, why mention? Most available chess games have some or the other unique features, try XMoto for a change from chess.

*Comic Life*: Comic Life makes creating digital comics a snap. Use Comic Life to produce high quality comics for posting on the web, including in a movie or printing out for friends.

Linux - That's nice, we have Inkscape for that, but this sounds nicer.

*Dashboard*: Check the time, watch the weather, track flights, view stock prices and find a local restaurant. Instantly. With a single click, the Dashboard zooms across your Desktop, giving you fast access to nifty widgets designed for fun as well as function. Bundled widgets are: Address Book, Business, Calculator, Calendar, Dictionary, ESPN, Flight Tracker, Google, iTunes, People, Ski Report, Stickies, Stocks, Tile Game, Translation, Unit Converter, Weather and World Clock.

Well, gDesklets and not as many widgets but heck, who cant develop them? Its easy to make one and easier now as they are all OS.

*Dictionary*: Words at your fingertips. Nouns, verbs, synonyms; Dictionary has them all and more.

Linux - aSpell comes by default.

*DVD Player*: Use DVD Player to watch DVD movies on your computer. You can watch movies recorded on standard DVD discs or view DVD projects that are stored on your hard disk.

Linux - Mmm, multimedia eh?  You win but not by a long shot, cause excellent players like Xine dont come for Macs. It even beats VLC in most aspects. Why DVD, when you can play all and any.

*Font Book*: Font Book makes it easy to install, preview, organize, and manage your fonts.

Linux - Font managers come in almost all OSes now mate.

*Front Row*: Dazzle your friends with an elegant full-screen media display. Front Row transforms movie night into a blockbuster Hollywood premiere — and you can preview Hollywood blockbusters from the Apple.com QuickTime movie trailer website. Control the mood of the room with instant access to iTunes music and playlists. View slideshows from your iPhoto library, complete with transitions and music. Watch home movies, music videos, TV shows, and more. Hit play and pass the popcorn. Enjoy your music, video, photos and DVDs exactly as you wish.

Linux - This is nice, like one push to major apps, nice for multimedia and eye-likes-gloss lovers. But I'd like a shortcut icon, please  IMO

*GarageBand*: You can use GarageBand to easily create your own original music to share with the world. You create a GarageBand music project by recording Real and Software Instruments, adding loops, arranging and mixing your project, then sending your finished project to iTunes or another iLife application.

Linux - Audacity + Plugins and various other apps for sound work, or forge. 

*iCal*: iCal is a personal calendar application that lets you easily keep track of appointments, view multiple calendars at the same time, share your calendar information with others, and more.

Linux - Evolution has a calendar system that integrates with the clock and major other apps, well enough.

*iChat*: iChat AV is a great way to send instant messages. You can stay in touch with people all over the world using full-screen video, audio, and text. With iChat AV you can video conference right from your desktop with up to three people, or audio conference with up to nine people. And no long-distance charges.

Linux - GAIM rocks in text till now. For video and sound there are Tapioca and others, but no good AIO solution. The calls you say, are they valid for India?

*iDVD*: When it comes time to share your music, photos, and movies with others, there's no better way to do it than with a DVD. And iDVD is the perfect way to collect all the pieces of your digital life in one place and share them with others.

Linux - Hehe, a burner  This is too funny branding.

*Image Capture*: Capture images from a camera or scanner, and then share them with your friends.

Linux - Um. I dont really need to mention the list of apps for this. Its all apt-get or yum or yast or smart away from a user.

*iMovie HD*: iMovie has always been the best way to easily import video from your digital camcorder, edit your movie with an assortment of stunning visual and audio effects, and then share it with family and friends.

Linux - Kino rocks too 

*Internet Connect*: Use Internet Connect to dial your ISP, establish a PPPoE connection, or connect to an AirPort network.

Linux - What is linux without networking? But Airport's sure destroying the google searches. And wifi is now natively supported as well.

*iPhoto*: iPhoto has always been the best way to easily import photos from your digital camera, organize them for fast retrieval, and then share them with family and friends.

Linux - Um. Again. Refer 2 above this.

*iSync*: iSync is synchronization software that helps you manage contact and calendar information on your Mac OS computer and devices, such as an iSync-compatible Bluetooth or USB mobile phone, a Palm OS device, or an iPod.

Linux - Well, any app that allows interface to devices have synchronize if they are really worth making.

*iTunes*: iTunes is software that makes it easy to play and organize music, movies, TV shows, podcasts, and more. You can take your music and video collection with you by synchronizing your iTunes library with your iPod, Apple's portable music and video player.

Linux - I really dont know but this is one big crap player on Windows atleast, gobbles up RAM, doesnt show me why I must stop using WMP 11 on windows atleast. On Linux, there is the ever fantastic modern player of one kind, AMAROK! Well, w/o scripts extensions, it has Wikipedia info, lyrics, streaming, etc etc that like, forms up 4 additional players. Not to mention a beautiful context browser and excellent playlist spacing. And oh, easy keybinding too! And Last.FM too.

*iWeb*: iWeb is an application you can use to easily create a professional-looking website.

Linux - Well, there are many like that on Linux, but nothing beats a text editor sometimes.

*Mail*: Use the Mail application to send and receive email messages. You can set up multiple email accounts and easily customize Mail to fit your needs.

Linux - Heh, power of Evolution and Thunderbird.

*OmniOutliner*: We all have ideas knocking around in our heads. OmniOutliner is for getting those ideas out into the open where you can see them, shuffle them around, neatly present them, and share them with other people. With it, you can quickly jot down notes into a list, or you can forge monumental masses of information into shape with pixel-by-pixel precision.

Linux - Like a mind map? Search mind map in the package manager and tell me.

*Photo Booth*: Take digital photos of yourself. Use them for your user account picture, iChat buddy icon, and more.

Linux - Um yeah, and I thought why didnt the camera makers give a software for this?

*Preview*: Preview lets you read PDF documents, view images, and take screenshots.

Linux - Yep, this is one long standing feature of Linux, its easy document readers AIO. And live Icons too! [Mepis]

*QuickTime Player*: QuickTime Player is a free multimedia player. You can use it to view many kinds of files, including video, audio, still images, graphics, and virtual reality (VR) movies. QuickTime supports the most popular formats on the Internet for news, sports, education, movie trailers, and other entertainment.

Linux - Two words. QT Sucks. Its like another Real Player. VLC on the other hand, even for Macs maybe, isnt bad at all.

*Safari*: Mac OS X includes Safari to make it easy for you to browse the Internet. Safari quickly and accurately displays the websites you visit, thanks to its Mac OS X underpinnings and its strict compliance to web standards. In addition, Safari's innovative features let you perform Google searches from the address bar, scan articles from several websites in one window with RSS, organize bookmarks of your favorite websites, and much more. Find out what you can do with Safari as you explore the Web.

Linux - Again two words - Firefox Rules. Tell me some more unique features of Safari first please, the ones mentioned here are basically in every browser alive.

*Sherlock*: Find what you're looking for in Sherlock channels. View local movie listings, get stock prices, track auction items, and more.

Linux - Some widgets do the same I believe.

*Stickies*: Need to jot down a phone number or make a quick shopping list? Use Stickies to leave little reminders where they won't get lost: right on your computer's desktop.

Linux - Widgets. Or in Linux tongue, Desklets.

*System Preferences*: Choose settings to customize your Mac OS X experience. It's Tiger tailored to your specific needs.

Linux - Bwhhaahaha its Open Source!

*TextEdit*: Write a note; write a novel; write a letter; write a webpage. View almost any text document, or create your own. TextEdit is a word processor that is both powerful and easy to use.

Linux - Erm, in Linux, text editors is more than that, its used for coding too, its used for virually every task that requires typing.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly, I havent used Macs much but unlike you say, I have spent a lot of months on Linux.

And no, Konqueror sucks as a browser.

And oh aryayush, that minimize thing, its a beryl eye candy 
I guess you havent tried XGL/AIGLX time waster products yet eh?


----------



## mail2and (Nov 28, 2006)

I think Ayush forgot to mention a couple of things. 

First, GIMP is available in 3 avatars on OS X. One, if you compile the linux one yourself. Two, if you use the compiled XII version. Three, if you use Seashore( OS X native).

Seashore screenie:

*img145.imageshack.us/img145/7716/picture49zn3.th.jpg

Also, it's not fair to compare web browsers. FF is available on OS X, too.



			
				Qwerty said:
			
		

> GarageBand: You can use GarageBand to easily create your own original music to share with the world. You create a GarageBand music project by recording Real and Software Instruments, adding loops, arranging and mixing your project, then sending your finished project to iTunes or another iLife application.
> 
> Linux - Audacity + Plugins and various other apps for sound work, or forg



Seriously, go ask any guitarist worth his salt what Garageband is. Search for garageband users on the net. You'll find some interesting names(including your favourite band). Here is one for starters.



> iDVD: When it comes time to share your music, photos, and movies with others, there's no better way to do it than with a DVD. And iDVD is the perfect way to collect all the pieces of your digital life in one place and share them with others.
> 
> Linux - Hehe, a burner  This is too funny branding.



LOL. That shows that you're never used a Mac. Go search for what iDvd is. Show me one software on this planet, other than iDvd, which can make 3D photo/video albums, as easy as drag and drop.




> iMovie HD: iMovie has always been the best way to easily import video from your digital camcorder, edit your movie with an assortment of stunning visual and audio effects, and then share it with family and friends.
> 
> Linux - Kino rocks too



Why aren't there movies showed at Cannes made with Kino? Try iMovie. It's not what you feel it is. It's not possible for me to show all the effects.




> iPhoto: iPhoto has always been the best way to easily import photos from your digital camera, organize them for fast retrieval, and then share them with family and friends.
> 
> Linux - Um. Again. Refer 2 above this.



Again, i'd say, try a Mac before commenting. You've no idea what you're talking about.


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## subratabera (Nov 28, 2006)

mail2and said:
			
		

> And what significance does Microsoft have to a thread on Mac and Linux?


I am just giving you an example brother...


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## mail2and (Nov 28, 2006)

> Finder: Your home on the Mac, Finder gives you lots of options for locating, displaying and organizing all your files and folders. From the power of Spotlight search technology to the flexibility of customizable item views, Mac OS X Finder truly shows your Mac at a glance.
> 
> Linux - I dont really think searching for a file is that hard comparing what Linux has as a one-spot storage place for documents under /home, a simple filename and text search option would do for its environment, no mess.



Atleast, check the screenshot of finder two posts above. It does the same thing. My account is under /Users/Anand.
__________


> Photo Booth: Take digital photos of yourself. Use them for your user account picture, iChat buddy icon, and more.
> 
> Linux - Um yeah, and I thought why didnt the camera makers give a software for this?



So, an app that does everything without the need for 3rd party software, is bad?

QWERTY, it's ok if you haven't used a Mac, but atleast avoid making sweeping statements.


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## mehulved (Nov 28, 2006)

For mind mapping - FreeMind.
dictionary - stardict
see superkaramba for widgets


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## subratabera (Nov 28, 2006)

mail2and said:
			
		

> Again, i'd say, try a Mac before commenting. You've no idea what you're talking about.


Anybody there willing to give me his Mac for few days, because sadly I can't afford it...


----------



## mail2and (Nov 28, 2006)

subratabera said:
			
		

> Anybody there willing to give me his Mac for few days, because sadly I can't afford it...



You can go to any local Apple store and try a Mac. There are lots and lots of authorised retailers in cities these days. 

BTW, a bare-bones Mac Mini costs 32-33k.


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## subratabera (Nov 28, 2006)

mail2and said:
			
		

> You can go to any local Apple store and try a Mac. There are lots and lots of authorised retailers in cities these days.
> 
> BTW, a bare-bones Mac Mini costs 32-33k.


Thanks for the info. I will definitely try one if I get a chance! BTW with 32-33k I can buy everything Linux needs for a spectacular desktop...


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## mail2and (Nov 28, 2006)

subratabera said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info. I will definitely try one if I get a chance! BTW with 32-33k I can buy everything Linux needs for a spectacular desktop...



That, my friend, is subjective, and depends upon the needs and preferences of each user.


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## mehulved (Nov 28, 2006)

And i don't think you really have to compromise much in Mac Mini that's available for 32-33K.


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## aryayush (Nov 28, 2006)

subratabera said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info. I will definitely try one if I get a chance! BTW with 32-33k I can buy everything Linux needs for a spectacular desktop...


But you cannot carry it to the office with you, can you!



			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> You can go to any local Apple store and try a Mac. There are lots and lots of authorised retailers in cities these days.


I've been telling you people to do this since as long as I remember. They (the Apple resellers) are quite used to people coming in for demos and then never contacting them again and they are glad to show a demo even though they know that it won't necessarily result in a sale. Just go ahead and give it a try!

But seriously, avoid doing so if you are not going to be able to afford it. The temptation is agonising. 


mail2and, I use LaunchBar now. That screenshot is of a the time I was very new to the Mac and did not have much idea about the software available. 

QwertyManiac, I posted that list of software that comes bundled with a Mac because subratabera asked for it. I did not mean to say that those software (or alternatives to them) are not available for the Linux platform - that is why I even mentioned Calculator. But even the Mac Calculator is far more advanced than the Ubuntu one.
And BTW, there is no real replacement for the iLife suite of applications (iPhoto, iMovie HD, iDVD, GarageBand, iWeb and iCal) and iDVD is not a burning software (LOL!), it is a DVD authoring software. As mail2and suggested, you might want to Google it up. 
__________
Look at Anand's website. He made it in iWeb and has hosted it on his Macintosh. And for doing such a professional looking job and getting it up and running, he did not have to refer to a single tutorial or type in a single line of code. That's what the Apple quality is all about. 8)
__________
Apple - Mac OS X - Exposé
*images.apple.com/macosx/features/expose/images/indextop20050412.jpg       *images.apple.com/macosx/features/expose/images/indextitle20050412.gif​*Instantly access any open window with a single keystroke — and stunning style that can never be imitated. Display all open windows as thumbnails, view windows of the current application or hide all windows to quickly locate a file on your desktop.*

*images.apple.com/macosx/features/expose/images/indexfeature20050412.jpg  *images.apple.com/macosx/features/expose/images/indexquicktimemodule20050412.gif​
Admit it, Mac OS X has you spoiled. You’ve become so used to its reliability that you don’t hesitate to have a dozen applications running at the same time. Which means, of course, that you probably spend a fair amount of time each day poking through open windows and documents just to uncover the one you need at the moment.

*Get the Picture?*

So wouldn’t it be great if all you had to do was hit one hot key to snap all of that window chaos into order?

That’s exactly what Exposé does. Type the *F9* key and Exposé instantly tiles all of your open windows, scales them down and neatly arranges them, so you can see what’s in every single one. And you definitely can see every one because Exposé works hand-in-hand with Quartz (the graphics engine behind everything you see in Mac OS X Tiger) to animate the scaling and preserve the visual quality of the window in its reduced size.

That’s not all. Move your mouse from one tiled window to the next and you’ll see its title displayed right in the center of the window. When you find the window you need, just click on it. Magically, every window will return to full size and the window you clicked — whether it’s a folder, a PDF, a QuickTime movie or a Word document — becomes the active window.

*Impressed? Wait till you hear this: Exposé has two more tricks up its sleeve.*
Say you’re one prodigious Photoshop phenom and often have up to a dozen documents open at the same time. Exposé makes finding the one you need incredibly easy. Type the *F10* key, and Exposé instantly tiles all of your open Photoshop windows while causing all of the open windows of other applications to fade to a delightful shade of grey. The clutter cleared, you can easily find the document you need. A mouse click makes it the active window. Plus you can use the tab key to switch between open applications and associated tiled windows.

*Here’s Looking at You, Kid*
They say the third time’s a charm and with Exposé it certainly is. Type the *F11* key and Exposé hides all open windows, giving you instant access to your desktop. Want to open a document you just downloaded? Check to see if the CD or DVD you’re burning in the background is ready? Or quickly locate and drag a file into an email as an enclosure? Exposé makes it a snap.

*images.apple.com/macosx/features/expose/images/indexallthree20050412.jpg


*Using Function Keys*
By default, F9 tiles all open windows; F10 tiles all open windows for the current application; and F11 hides all open windows so you can see the contents of your desktop.

*Using Gestures*
*images.apple.com/macosx/features/expose/images/indexgestures20050412.jpg  You can also use gestures — moving the mouse over one of the display corners — to activate any of the three Exposé actions. Again, simply use System Preference to assign each Exposé action to a different corner.

*Using Mouse Buttons*
And those of you who use a multi-button mouse can also assign Exposé actions to the extra buttons on your favorite rodent.


Copyright © 2006 Apple Computer, Inc. All rights reserved.​
(Many people, like tech_your_future and QwertyManiac, have mentioned that they did not quite understand what Exposé and hot corners mean. This is an explanation directly from Apple.)


----------



## subratabera (Nov 28, 2006)

Wow...Simply great. I am really liking this thread...and its starter


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## aryayush (Nov 28, 2006)

I think Fight Club is the best thing that ever happened to the Digit Forum.


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## gxsaurav (Nov 28, 2006)

> I don't think I have any need to convince anyone how superb the Macintosh GUI is. Everyone knows it's the best in the business, including the likes of gxsaurav. Still, I'll try to find some impressive screenshots (or snap some).




Talking about just the UI here.....

The only thing I like about Maces UI is the color scheme & consistency, which is not even given in Windows Vista by default, unless I tweak it a bit. The animation whether it's in vista, Mac or XGL, are just eye candy & not productive. Even in case of ubuntu, or mandriva, there is consistency in case of GNOME, gradients sux anyway in UI; Cell shaded rox which is there by default in GNOME & Mac, something I have to command

In Vista/Linux at least we have an option to disable the animation & speed up the UI response time, in Mac there is no option to do it by default. There might be an option to do it by some 3rd party app I don't know, maybe cocktail supports it now

Right now Mac is not that consistent either, some Apple apps use the platinum theme, some uses old aqua theme, with pinstripes, some uses brushed metal, all of them can't use the same. Wonder if the UI of Mac applications are app based or OS managed like in case of Windows & Linux

Dock is subjective, there is no way to find out which app is running & which is not, all look same on it, in full color. Why doesn't Apple makes it such that by default the dock icon colors should be a bit pale or dim, u know grayish, but those apps which are running should be shown in full color icon

Mac Applications are palated, though some of the new ones are docked now; example would be Seashore (Palated, many windows & docks) vs Photoshop CS (Everything in one Window). I M comparing just the UI part & this depends on the application maker

PS - Andy's site, well, just one advice, text is too small to read, & even on Zoom it doesn't stretches well


----------



## mediator (Nov 29, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> Well, I did say that comparing applications would not really help determine which OS was better. When comparing default installations, Mac OS X Tiger bundles much more software than Ubuntu and that is what I have demonstrated here.
> As for Excel, Word, etc. being major things and DVD playing capabilities secondary, that depends from person-to-person. I, for one, have never used Excel or Access. And I do not need Powerpoint or Word's functionality because TextEdit suffices my needs. However, I play DVDs on a regular basis and that is a very essential requirement as far as I am concerned. Yes, maybe you have a job where you have to use Excel a lot and you are not much of a movie watcher. In that case, the scenario will be the opposite. And you can always install OpenOffice on a Mac too.


I understand and agree!



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> This time, I could not test the applications with various movie files because Ubuntu wouldn't read my DVDs and CDs. So it's not my fault.
> However, I have tried playing media files on Ubuntu in the past. It just gives me some error about the media not being supported and that's it. It does not offer to download the codecs like QuickTime Player and Windows Media Player do.


U see, thats the trade off for Linux which is FREE! It can be resolved by installing a few codecs and then u'll neva eva see anykind of error. The above case is not experienced with propreitary linux.

Neways I prefer installing the codecs first, then being interrupted like in QT and WMP for codecs. Thats annoying. The media files that don't work on windows OS, I just play them in Linux without any tension or care.
And for installing the codecs on linux, u again have the much simpler and efficient way of doing it i.e use of wildcards in commandline. Try to do it in any GUI and u'll start to piss off by clicking (like 20 times) and selecting the required packages! So install Fedora, or yum on Ubuntu and I'll tell u how commandline simply rulezz in several cases.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> On a standard Mac installation, you can play the following formats without any third-party interferance: MP3, AAC, AIFF, WAV, MP4, MOV, MPG, AVI, DAT (and maybe some more). Obviously, you can also play DVDs (directly from media or stored on your hard drive). If you want to know some specific software's functionality, let me know.


Since I dunno about Mac much, I just wanted know about the functionality of each software package u quoted, so that I and everyone else can give their verdict and show u the corresponding package for Linux.
Neways ur right, it doesn't matter about the quantity of software packages. So leave it! Also the software list is very very big. No one can compare it anyways. It might take u a full day or more to compare it!


About the images : The images u and @andy have posted look good. But I have seen the same kinda visualization for Linux too. I posted some visualization of FC6 from some source, but @Jguru and all the company demoralised me by saying other distros have far much greater effects. Mac may be better, I dunno. Ur right one can compare when he has used both.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> But you cannot carry it to the office with you, can you!


Atleast I can!

Neways here are some images of linux

*www.linux-magazin.de/Artikel/ausgabe/2006/05/aiglx/abb1.jpg
*www.hboeck.de/uploads/compiz-aiglx.serendipityThumb.jpg
*www.fedorablog.de/uploads/screenshots/aiglx-shot.jpg
*linux.be/gfx.use/linux.screenshot.1578.1.png
*www.4lineas.net/wp-content/imagenes/xorg_aiglx_compiz.png
*ironphoenix.org/tril/fvwm/germany.jpg
*people.freedesktop.org/~krh/warped.png
*fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/screenshots/full/transparent.jpg
*zaurus.spy.org/screenshots/pdaxrom/C/rox+xfce.jpg
*www.bootlog.cl/up/2006/06/xfce_xgl.jpg
*blog.wiebel.nl/wp-content/uploads/compiz_aiglx.png

Check em out each one of em. These were just a few examples!


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## aryayush (Nov 29, 2006)

mediator said:
			
		

> And for installing the codecs on linux, u again have the much simpler and efficient way of doing it i.e use of wildcards in commandline. Try to do it in any GUI and u'll start to piss off by clicking (like 20 times) and selecting the required packages! So install Fedora, or yum on Ubuntu and I'll tell u how commandline simply rulezz in several cases.


Have you ever installed K-Lite Mega Codec Pack on Windows? It is just four clicks if you want the default settings and takes less than two minutes to install. After that, all media files play with Windows Media Player without a hitch.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Atleast I can!


How?
__________


			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> The animation whether it's in vista, Mac or XGL, are just eye candy & not productive.


Most, if not all, animations in Macintosh are productive. The genie effect shows you where your window has been minimised to, the dock magnification helps you identify smaller icons, the scrolling effect makes for easier reading in webpages and text documents, the rotating cube is a blessing if you have multiple desktops. Plus, the animations are always quick and get out of the way. They are not obstructive. And to top it off, they look beautiful and enhance the UI.
Even users who use the classic interface in XP would not want to disable the animations. If you enable the claassic UI in Windows XP, the performance becomes significantly faster. But it's not the same case on a Macintosh because a Mac is always fast and turning off the animations will not make it even faster. Given all these reasons, I really don't see why someone would want to get rid of the Mac interface's stunning animations.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> In Vista/Linux at least we have an option to disable the animation & speed up the UI response time, in Mac there is no option to do it by default.


No, there are options to disable the animations but they aren't blatantly obvious. The reason is that most Mac buyers are Windows switchers and Apple does not want them to unglorify the UI under a false assumption that it will help speed it up à la Windows.


----------



## mediator (Nov 29, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> Have you ever installed K-Lite Mega Codec Pack on Windows? It is just four clicks if you want the default settings and takes less than two minutes to install. After that, all media files play with Windows Media Player without a hitch.


O yes, I have installed it! But still I get the annoying interrupts. U have any solution for it?



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> How?


 What? How I take linux PC to work?? Simply, as everyone takes their windows PC to work!



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> No, there are options to disable the animations but they aren't blatantly obvious. *The reason is* that most Mac buyers are Windows switchers and Apple does not want them to unglorify the UI under a false assumption that it will help speed it up à la Windows.


Did apple give that reason by itself?

Neways, how did u like the pictures of Linux desktop I posted?


----------



## aryayush (Nov 29, 2006)

How can you take a PC to work? You lug the huge CPU around?
__________


			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Dock is subjective, there is no way to find out which app is running & which is not, all look same on it, in full color. Why doesn't Apple makes it such that by default the dock icon colors should be a bit pale or dim, u know grayish, but those apps which are running should be shown in full color icon


There is a small black triangle below the running apps and it does a fine job without being intrusive. I wouldn't like a dock which has half greyscale icons and the rest coloured. It would look ugly. Have a look at the following screenshot:

*www.tachypic.com/thumb/2944.jpeg

You can't get more obvious than that. It is absolutely clear which applications are running and which windows are active.

Compare it to Linux or Windows. How does a button on the taskbar (which gets progressively smaller) help determine which application the window belongs to? A web browser's button, for example, would begin with the title of the webpage (and even that disappears when you have a lot of windows open). And the icons on the buttons are very small. When I used Windows, I often clicked on a button, saw that it wasn't the one I wanted, then had to click on another. At any given point, it is not obvious which applications are presently running. On a Mac, the ones that have the triangle below them are the ones that are running. You just need to glance down for a sec.


----------



## subratabera (Nov 29, 2006)

Mac is just like a beautiful rich girl to me. I love her but can't marry her. Her demands are very high. I can't dress her up the way I want. Her ornaments, makeup are very expensive. And she want her own car(hardware) to go anywhere.

But Linux is like a village girl to me. She is simple, obey my orders, can be made beautiful, can be dressed up whichever way I want. As she is from village, she lacks some urban language, but can be taught as she learns very quick. She can prepare any kind of food(software) you like. And you don't have to spend anything on her...

So I love both Mac & Linux but marry only Linux.


----------



## aryayush (Nov 29, 2006)

So the summary is that you are a cheat!


----------



## subratabera (Nov 29, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> So the summary is that you are a cheat!


You can say so...


----------



## aryayush (Nov 29, 2006)

mediator said:
			
		

> Did apple give that reason by itself?


No, they didn't.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Neways, how did u like the pictures of Linux desktop I posted?


They are cool but most of them are not really useful. In fact, a text window that is transparent is just a bother. Why would you want to see through a window on which you are typing?
And anyway, you need to instal XGL/Compiz/Beryl for enabling those effects and it is no child's play. Fedora Core 6 has the rotating cube and that's creditable.

However, when both Windows and Linux are just copying things that are already available on the Mac, doesn't it make more sense to use a Mac instead? Of course, there is this huge cost factor in favour of Linux, so I can't really say Linux is not good. It's pretty good and is catching up fast, but it is my humble opinion that it will always be playing the catch-up game.


----------



## sgireesh (Nov 29, 2006)

Setting up compiz plus the 3d effects on mandriva 2007 is actually a no brainer 

Just open control center->hardware->3d and select aiglx.
Put in the mandriva dvd and wait for a minute.
Logout ang login.
Thats it..

The effects are cool. But the best thing is it runs on my i865 board (on my friends i845 board too)  with only onboard graphics support. 

About the great MAC applications, are they compatible with other applications for other software? I dunno. Now the ball is in your court..


----------



## mediator (Nov 29, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> How can you take a PC to work? You lug the huge CPU around?


How absurd! U think of PC as a huge luggage with a CPU around?? Dude PC stands for Personal Computer. Personal computer can be ur Laptop or ur Desktop Computer. Classification remember? This was also exlpained in Digit magazine I think and how people confuse a PC with Desktop computer always. When I say "I carry my PC to work", then its obvious that I'm referring to my Laptop. I'm surprised u didn't know that. 
Neways I hope, that u have understood now that "absurd" is not counted in flames. 




			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> You can't get more obvious than that. It is *absolutely clear* which applications are running and which windows are active.


Please put a clear view of the desktop atleast so that we can be absolutely clear. 





			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> mediator said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then why are you saying that => below highlighted!


			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> No, there are options to disable the animations but they aren't blatantly obvious. *The reason is that most Mac buyers are Windows switchers and Apple does not want them to unglorify the UI under a false assumption that it will help speed it up à la Windows.*


Why are u justifying it? Are linux users justifying why linux lacks in gaming department? If it lacks, then it lacks! Buts its improving though.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> They are cool but most of them are not really useful. In fact, a text window that is transparent is just a bother. *Why would you want to see through a window on which you are typing?*
> *And anyway, you need to instal XGL/Compiz/Beryl for enabling those effects and it is no child's play. Fedora Core 6 has the rotating cube and that's creditable.*


Why do u want a slanted windows in Mac as u posted?? Well u wanted the effects in linux and wanted some comparison. Why r u discussing its pros and cons?? U and @Andy posted the Mac effects in some images, but I guess the linux effects are much greater than those then. Is that all Mac has in UI ??

Neways u asked for transparency. So, I like transparencies a lot with a lot of abstract stuff in UI. Its not a bother, but it really help u to se whats going on in file download, program compilation etc. Transparencies can be increased or decreased as per ur like and to make u comfortable. So its not a bother. Its a very nice end-users experience! 

As for highlighted part, Again, INSTALLING is not an end-users task. I hope u understand that now!

So do u have equivalent Mac desktop images for ones I showed u for Linux??



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> However, *when both Windows and Linux are just copying things that are already available on the Mac*, doesn't it make more sense to use a Mac instead? Of course, there is this huge cost factor in favour of Linux, so I can't really say Linux is not good. It's pretty good and is catching up fast, but it is my humble opinion that *it will always be playing the catch-up game.*


Enough sarcastic statments bro. I heard all the way in this forum that its Mac which keeps on copying things from Linux and windows and doesn't contribute the code back. Neways, yea copying is done in every OS!! But in this forum alone I learnt that Mac is the leader in "copying" department!

As for the catch-up game, can u tell me when did Mac make its entry in the world of Desktop OS?? Mention the year. ANd now tell when the desktop boom in Linux world started?? Compare the number of years of what it was then and what its now!! The last 4 years alone has seen Linux emerging from nowhere to almost everywhere except in gaming department. Compare the number of users it had 4 yrs ago to the number of users at present!

So I don't think Linux will "always be playing the catch-up game". Who knows what might happen in next 4 years. In future Mac may not be able to play even the catch-up game.

So please don't justify unnecessarily. If the company has said so, then quote so.


----------



## gxsaurav (Nov 29, 2006)

Well, as i have already said above, transparency in the UI is not good at all, good thing atleast in Vista it is only limited to toolbar,menus etc, not the application viewport, U can't read text in it


----------



## mehulved (Nov 29, 2006)

Well in XGL/AIGLX. You can enable and disable transparency in the application as you wish. So, what's the fuss about it? People can select whatever they prefer.


----------



## mediator (Nov 29, 2006)

@gx :  U can read text in transparencies easily! I have set the default terminal in UBUNTU and FEDORA for that! Its very easy. 
__________
@aryayush ; One question outta curiosity. Do they extract money from u for upgrading the Mac OS also? Just the OS!


----------



## gxsaurav (Nov 29, 2006)

MacOS upgrades are $130, like from 10.4 to 10. will be $130, that is the usual cost

meditator....

man, donno how u read that, i just can't


----------



## mediator (Nov 29, 2006)

^^ read what?


----------



## gxsaurav (Nov 29, 2006)

^^ text on transparent viewport area in an application


----------



## mail2and (Nov 29, 2006)

Any effects on OS X can be disabled. However, those aren't animations. They are effects, just that. It doesn't slow down the OS at all, and people with G3 400 MHZ macs run OS X Tiger with 256 MB Ram. Each new release of Mac OS is faster than its predecessor. Panther was faster than Jaguar and Tiger is faster than Panther. IF you think I'm bluffing, search macrumors.com for tiger/panther benchmarks. I'm sure you'll find many.

Secondly, the apps open in the dock can be recognized easily. There is a small black triangle below the open apps in the dock. I haven't come across a person, yet, who could not identify the open apps on my compure-this list includes my papa and other family members and friends.

The real dock was originally an idea incorporated in Amiga OS back in the late 80s. I think dock is a much better alternative than any sort of taskbar, but again, this is subjective.

I'm disappointed that people do not read posts, where this stuff is explained, and then post their views/opinions again. If you want to participate in a debate, at least make sure you read what the whole thread is about i.e. if you want to participate.

Frankly, on any computer with less than 256 mb ram, i'd use Slackware. On anything above 256 MB Ram, i'd not use anything other than Mac OS.

And lastly, I'd request people, who post in a thread just to disrupt the discussion, not to even bother.


----------



## aryayush (Nov 29, 2006)

mediator said:
			
		

> How absurd! U think of PC as a huge luggage with a CPU around?? Dude PC stands for Personal Computer. Personal computer can be ur Laptop or ur Desktop Computer. Classification remember? This was also exlpained in Digit magazine I think and how people confuse a PC with Desktop computer always. When I say "I carry my PC to work", then its obvious that I'm referring to my Laptop. I'm surprised u didn't know that.


This is the conversation we were having:





			
				mail2and said:
			
		

> BTW, a bare-bones Mac Mini costs 32-33k.





			
				subratabera said:
			
		

> BTW with 32-33k I can buy everything Linux needs for a spectacular desktop...





			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> But you cannot carry it to the office with you, can you!





			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Atleast I can!


We were talking about a Mac mini and a self-assembled PC. Now when you said that 'atleast I can (carry it to the office with me)', why would I assume you were talking about a laptop! I know you can carry a laptop anywhere with you, we were talking about the CPU. 
__________


			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Please put a clear view of the desktop atleast so that we can be absolutely clear.


That's the best I can do with a 1.3 megapixel cellphone camera, iPhoto and my very limited knowledge in the department of photography. Sorry! 



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Then why are you saying that => below highlighted!
> 
> Why are u justifying it? Are linux users justifying why linux lacks in gaming department? If it lacks, then it lacks! Buts its improving though.


First of all, it is not something that the Macintosh lacks. You can easily disable the effects.
And it is not necessary that every single thing that I post about the Macintosh has to be certified by Apple. I participate in a lot of forums related to Apple and hence, know the reason behind not making the option of diabling the effects very obvious. Certain things would even become confusing if you disabled the effects (like managing virtual desktops and Exposé).



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Why do u want a slanted windows in Mac as u posted??


Slanted windows serve no purpose at all and you won't find them anywhere on the Macintosh (like the first screenshot you posted of Fedora Core). If you are referring to the genie effect of minimising windows, it helps if you have a large dock because you get a visual indication of where the window was minimised to and don't have to hunt for it later.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Well u wanted the effects in linux and wanted some comparison. Why r u discussing its pros and cons??


Because that's what we are here to do. Macintosh does not have useless effects. All the effects serve a purpose apart from looking fancy. However, most of the screenshots you posted had effects that were just eye candy and served no real purpose.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> U and @Andy posted the Mac effects in some images, but I guess the linux effects are much greater than those then. Is that all Mac has in UI ??


There are more but it's not possible to take screenshots of them in action because they get out of the way very quickly. Rest assured, there are more effects than you can count on your fingertips. 



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Neways u asked for transparency. So, I like transparencies a lot with a lot of abstract stuff in UI. Its not a bother, but it really help u to se whats going on in file download, program compilation etc. Transparencies can be increased or decreased as per ur like and to make u comfortable. So its not a bother. Its a very nice end-users experience!


It's subjective but I have always found transparent windows cumbersome, and specially the ones with text.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> As for highlighted part, Again, INSTALLING is not an end-users task. I hope u understand that now!


If you want XGL/Compiz/Beryl, who will instal it for you? You have to do it yourself, don't you?
And if you don't consider it to be end-user stuff, then why are you saying that Linux has the effects too. Someone has to instal the effects before you can use them.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> So do u have equivalent Mac desktop images for ones I showed u for Linux??


No, you don't have transparent or wiggly windows on a Macintosh and I am very thankful for that.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Enough sarcastic statments bro. I heard all the way in this forum that its Mac which keeps on copying things from Linux and windows and doesn't contribute the code back. Neways, yea copying is done in every OS!! But in this forum alone I learnt that Mac is the leader in "copying" department!


I couldn't care less who copies the code from whom. Yes, it is ethically wrong if Apple has ripped off code from the Open Source community and has not given anything back to it, but I have only eddie's very unconvincing word for it and I am not likely to believe that in a hurry.
What I was talking about were the features, the effects, the UI. And I don't even have a problem with MS or Linux copying them. I just think it's more logical to side with the innovators than with the followers. Of course, if you save a huge amount of money by using Linux (and are satisfied with it), by all means, continue using it.
All I ask is that if you are willing to spend some money for a better experience, you should treat yourselves to a Macintosh. However, if you don't, all the better for existing Macintosh users as it certainly makes us unique. 



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> As for the catch-up game, can u tell me when did Mac make its entry in the world of Desktop OS?? Mention the year. ANd now tell when the desktop boom in Linux world started?? Compare the number of years of what it was then and what its now!! The last 4 years alone has seen Linux emerging from nowhere to almost everywhere except in gaming department. Compare the number of users it had 4 yrs ago to the number of users at present!


That is because Apple and Microsoft started from scratch and Linus Torvalds (and all other subsequent Linux developers have) had a firm base to build upon. Plus, Linux developers have nothing (at least not much) to lose even if their OS or application fails to make it to the big league because there is no (or not much) finance involved. However, Apple has to consider every decision very very carefully because they cannot afford to lose. Even Microsoft is relatively risk free now.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> So I don't think Linux will "always be playing the catch-up game". Who knows what might happen in next 4 years. In future Mac may not be able to play even the catch-up game.


LOL! That's certainly never going to happen.

And just for a teaser of how convenient a Macintosh is, consider this example. I had typed up a sizeable response to mediator's post about carrying the laptop around (my previous post) but then I decided to close the page for some reason. On Linux or Windows, you would have pressed 'Ctrl + A', 'Ctrl + C', opened up Text Editor/Notepad and hit 'Ctrl + V' and saved it. Then when you wanted the comment back, you would have opened the text file, copied the whole thing again and pasted it back wherever you wanted it. What I did was hit 'Ctrl + A', drag the selection onto the desktop and when I needed it again, just dragged the clipping on the desktop back onto the textbox where I wanted it. Believe me, it's much more convenient. The difference between both processes would hardly be a second or two, but the Mac's method is much more functional and elegant.
This is just one tiny example. There are several such things that you won't even notice when you get used to a Macintosh - unless you try your hand at Linux or Windows again.


----------



## mail2and (Nov 29, 2006)

Thanks for the tip, aayush! I never knew about this.

I think a lot of comments in this forum are quite childish in the sense that people don't understand how businesses are run. In another thread, an enlightened gentleman said that the CEO of a $67 billion company didn't get a certain idea, and then he brushed aside his own comment by saying that it was a joke.

It's also got to do with ignorance and the tendency to make sweeping statements, without confirming facts.

People call me a fanboy, but if you check any of my posts about OS X or Macs in general, you wouldn't find any point made by me that wasn't a fact. If anyone does, he/she is welcome to point that out to me.

Then, there is a tendency to base the purchase of a computer on a person's wealth. I think no one has a right to make comments about how rich or how poor a person is.

Then, there are people who make comments about a platform in general, without checking facts or without bothering to know what the platform is about.

I think if anyone wants to have a serious and unbiased discussion on any platform, ArsTechina is a really good site. However, they do not and will not accept childish comments.


----------



## aryayush (Nov 30, 2006)

mail2and said:
			
		

> Thanks for the tip, aayush! I never knew about this.


Glad to help! 
You can select and drag any text (or images too) to and from any Cocoa application. When you drag it onto any folder in the Finder, it gets saved as a clipping. For example, you can drag text from Safari into an email you are writing or into an iCal appointment. A very fundamental use is dragging comments from others' posts into the quick reply box at the bottom of the page on online forums (such as this one).


----------



## sgireesh (Nov 30, 2006)

> aryayush says
> _ "Linus and subsequent developers had nothing to lose!"._


 compare this to  complaining about the CEO of a $67 billion corporation..

Aryayush, because Linus gave linux "under the GPL" doesn't mean he could afford to lose years of work. The same goes to subsequent developers...
Then you say there are no business decisions around linux. So where does Red Hat, Suse, Ubuntu etc come into. 



> "Linus had a firm base to build on"



Nah, it wasn't the mac or the windows that gave him the base. The linus developers built it themselves from ideas not bases...

As for carrying the CPU, linux laptops are available for 25K. Look around.

Finally, 


> "all mac effects have a purpose".


so what does that mean?
All effects on linux have a purpose too. The slant windows effect is there to give a fluid feel to your desktop . It kinda eases your eyes...



> there are more effects that you could count on your fingers


Why do you try to bring this discussion back to the effects?
__________
late post: left out one detail.



> And just for a teaser of how convenient a Macintosh is, consider this example....



well the thing works on linux. atleast for word documents on gnome. It automatically saves it as a file. then dragging the file into a new document inserts the contents back. so probably the other nifty things you speak of exist too


----------



## mehulved (Nov 30, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> That is because Apple and Microsoft started from scratch and Linus Torvalds (and all other subsequent Linux developers have) had a firm base to build upon.


Who said Mac OS X was started from scratch? It was taken forward from Nextstep. And Linux kernel was made from scratch. Then all the apps had to be designed so they work along with the kernel. So, nothing about Linux was handed on a platter unlike OS X. And still OS X takes from Open Source community read Cups, KHTML, etc. So, Linux isn't the one who always plays catchup.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Plus, Linux developers have nothing (at least not much) to lose even if their OS or application fails to make it to the big league because there is no (or not much) finance involved. However, Apple has to consider every decision very very carefully because they cannot afford to lose. Even Microsoft is relatively risk free now.


Those people have their time and reputation at stake that's a big enough thing. And there are commercial distros too so they have chances of loosing out on a lot of money.


----------



## mediator (Nov 30, 2006)

For conversation part I didn't know mac mini refers to dekstop pc. Then mac book must be laptop right?



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> That's the best I can do with a 1.3 megapixel cellphone camera, iPhoto and my very limited knowledge in the department of photography. Sorry!


Why do u need to take photo from cellphone?? Doesn't Mac allow u to take desktop snapshot??



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> And it is not necessary that every single thing that I post about the Macintosh has to be certified by Apple. I participate in a lot of forums related to Apple and hence, know the reason behind not making the option of diabling the effects very obvious. Certain things would even become confusing if you disabled the effects (like managing virtual desktops and Exposé).


Well if its not written in the OS faqs or its website, but rather discussed in some forums, then its indeed is a justification. Neways if u can't understand that then I don't have any problem with that.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Slanted windows serve no purpose at all and you won't find them anywhere on the Macintosh (like the first screenshot you posted of Fedora Core). If you are referring to the genie effect of minimising windows, it helps if you have a large dock because you get a visual indication of where the window was minimised to and don't have to hunt for it later.


All I wanted to say different effects have different purposes and some are for eyecandy. I just installed Beryl on Edgy. It was a child's play. The first thing I noticed was genie effect as u said. Woah beryl is awesome, but I read compiz is better. So will check it out too.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Because that's what we are here to do. Macintosh does not have useless effects. All the effects serve a purpose apart from looking fancy. However, *most* of the screenshots you posted had effects that were just eye candy and *served no real purpose.*


U said "most". I hope u don't count transparencies in it. I luv transparencies. And they serve me well.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> There are more but it's not possible to take screenshots of them in action because they get out of the way very quickly. Rest assured, there are more effects than you can count on your fingertips.


Isn't there a way in Mac to delay that quickness so that they get out of the way a little slowly? About the number of effects well that can be experienced if I ever use Mac. Right now beryl is working awesome. Too good! 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> It's subjective but I have always found transparent windows cumbersome, and specially the ones with text.


Where have u used transparencies?? Check out knoppix 4 or 5 and u'll find the transparencies in it very "eye-friendly" not cumbersome. I guess Mac doesn't gives u "eye-friendly" transparencies and thats why u find it cumbersome.

Here are some transparencies 

*www.imageupload.com/uploads/thumb_06247_Screenshot-1.png

*www.imageupload.com/uploads/thumb_1f30d_Screenshot-2.png



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> If you want XGL/Compiz/Beryl, who will instal it for you? You have to do it yourself, don't you?
> And if you don't consider it to be end-user stuff, then why are you saying that Linux has the effects too. Someone has to instal the effects before you can use them.


U don't understand the concept of users classification. Please google some, or read some good software engineering books please. Like wise u said powerpoint etc doesn't come preloaded with default installation of Mac. Does it mean the same as u said?? As @sgireesh said it is no brainer task in Mandriva and I find it no brainer task in Ubuntu also. Why are u saying such stuff as above quoted?? Obviously if it can come in repostories of free Linux then it can come in default installation of propreitary Linux. Is that what u asked for??
Also as I said installation is not end-users task. The system admin can install everything at his disposal and end-user can njoy it. So end-user doesn't have to do it himself!! 
Remember we r dealing with end-user's experience, so please forget about installation part or read a good book to know what I'm saying.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> No, you don't have transparent or wiggly windows on a Macintosh and I am very thankful for that.


I'm very dissapointed if tranparent windows aren't there in Mac. Didn't expect this. But it seems it ur biaseness towards Mac that is blinding u to see the importance of tranparencies. Yea it has awesome eyecandy tooo. As I said I just luv transparencies. 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> I couldn't care less who copies the code from whom. Yes, it is ethically wrong if Apple has ripped off code from the Open Source community and has not given anything back to it, but I have only eddie's very unconvincing word for it and I am not likely to believe that in a hurry.
> What I was talking about were the features, the effects, the UI. And I don't even have a problem with MS or Linux copying them. I just think it's more logical to side with the innovators than with the followers. Of course, if you save a huge amount of money by using Linux (and are satisfied with it), by all means, continue using it.
> All I ask is that if you are willing to spend some money for a better experience, you should treat yourselves to a Macintosh. However, if you don't, all the better for existing Macintosh users as it certainly makes us unique.


Atleast u understand now that Apple too copies code. But I dont understand how it makes Mac users "unique". All u r doing here is elobarating how good Mac is in UI and interface. Well having beryl on mah PC now, I feel unique too. 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> LOL! That's certainly never going to happen.


Well keep ur fingers crossed then.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> On Linux or Windows, you would have pressed 'Ctrl + A', 'Ctrl + C', opened up Text Editor/Notepad and hit 'Ctrl + V' and saved it. Then when you wanted the comment back, you would have opened the text file, copied the whole thing again and pasted it back wherever you wanted it. What I did was hit 'Ctrl + A', drag the selection onto the desktop and when I needed it again, just dragged the clipping on the desktop back onto the textbox where I wanted it. Believe me, it's much more convenient.


This has been replied by @sgireesh. So just to add, I don't like to drag and keep mouse pressed straining my fingers. The method of "Ctrl + *" is much efficient for me.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> This is just one tiny example. There are several such things that you won't even notice when you get used to a Macintosh - unless you try your hand at Linux or Windows again.


But dude how can u compare when u urself said plethora of times that u r a noobie to Linux world?? Atleast explore the Linux world to the same limit u have explored the Mac world!


----------



## caleb (Nov 30, 2006)

Wow this is one of the long running, most informative arguments I've come across in a long time...just reading these posts I've learned a great deal...at least to my very limited knowledge base on Mac & Linux...keep going gentlemen.


----------



## subratabera (Nov 30, 2006)

I think you have missed one of my previous post...



> So you want all that Mac functionality, effects, animation, consistency etc. on Linux for free and don't want to wait for that...STRANGE!!!
> 
> Why don't you understand that Linux is not developed under a roof with a team of programmers who can interact with each other and discuss on problems with much more flexibility. Linux is a community effort which takes time and effort to develop something. All the programmers work in a non-consistent manner with little interaction with each other. Beryl is developed in only six months which took 5 years for Microsoft programmers. Don't you think that this is a surprise!!!
> 
> So wait for more surprises...And one day who knows all Mac users will switch to Linux.



Please comment...


----------



## aryayush (Nov 30, 2006)

sgireesh said:
			
		

> Aryayush, because Linus gave linux "under the GPL" doesn't mean he could afford to lose years of work. The same goes to subsequent developers...


Linus Torvalds spent a lot of hard work on Linux, yes. You HAVE to be prepared to work hard if you want to do something extraordinary. His was a commendable effort, but when I say that he had nothing to lose, I mean to say that he did not have millions of customers requesting all sorts of features, billions of dollars invested in his work, any sort of market goodwill to maintain or shareholders to satisfy. Yes, he stood to lose all his hard work if he failed (and that would be a huge blow to him), but would you know that there was a person called Linus Torvalds who was trying to make an operating system and failed? The failure would be his, but if Microsoft or Apple (or any other giant corporation including Red Hat, Novell, etc.) makes some drastic mistake today, they will be publicly humbled and will suffer huge financial losses.
That is what I meant to say. I am not demeaning the significance of Linus Torvalds' contribution to technology in any manner.



			
				sgireesh said:
			
		

> Then you say there are no business decisions around linux. So where does Red Hat, Suse, Ubuntu etc come into.


They came into the fray later. I was replying to mediator's comment that Linux has had so much success in just four years where MS and Apple did it in more than a decade.



			
				sgireesh said:
			
		

> Nah, it wasn't the mac or the windows that gave him the base. The linus developers built it themselves from ideas not bases...


Oh yeah? As if Linux would have been so advanced in four years had it been launched when Apple and MS came out with their first operating systems. No, it wouldn't. It would also have been struggling to find a footing had it been released as a bare-bones OS. But Linus Torvalds must have read some books on software programming and kernel development, or looked up the internet, or gained the knowledge from whichever source he preferred. But the technology was already out there because Apple and Microsoft had done it before. That is the base I am talking about.



			
				sgireesh said:
			
		

> As for carrying the CPU, linux laptops are available for 25K. Look around.


OMG! Who is talking about a laptop here? The whole world knows that laptops can be carried around, they are meant to enable mobility. We were talking about a Mac Mini and a self-assembled PC's CPU. Can you carry a CPU with you to the office? No, you can't - unless, of course, you are the proud owner of a Mac Mini.



			
				sgireesh said:
			
		

> All effects on linux have a purpose too. The slant windows effect is there to give a fluid feel to your desktop . It kinda eases your eyes...


You know what, you should accept it gracefully if your preferred platform has some drawbacks, which everything in the world is bound to have. The windows jangling around like a piece of wet cloth when you move them around serves no purpose at all. I have seen it in action so I know what I am talking about. Why should you feel that the desktop is fluid? It's not supposed to be.



			
				sgireesh said:
			
		

> Why do you try to bring this discussion back to the effects?


I just replied to mediator's question of how many effects there were on Mac OS X.



			
				sgireesh said:
			
		

> well the thing works on linux. atleast for word documents on gnome. It automatically saves it as a file. then dragging the file into a new document inserts the contents back. so probably the other nifty things you speak of exist too


It's not only there for Word documents, it's there even in Firefox. Though it's not as refined as on OS X, it's almost as good. I didn't know that. It's commendable. 




			
				mediator said:
			
		

> For conversation part I didn't know mac mini refers to dekstop pc. Then mac book must be laptop right?


Yes, the MacBook is a laptop.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Why do u need to take photo from cellphone?? Doesn't Mac allow u to take desktop snapshot??


Not when either Front Row is activated or you are Command - Tabbing between applications.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> All I wanted to say different effects have different purposes and some are for eyecandy. I just installed Beryl on Edgy. It was a child's play.


OK then, can you tell me how you did it? I want to try it out too.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Isn't there a way in Mac to delay that quickness so that they get out of the way a little slowly?


Yes, some animations happen in slow motion if you press 'Shift'. But you won't be able to understand the sliding effects with screenshots. You need to watch some videos of them in action. And better still, you need to experience them.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Where have u used transparencies?? Check out knoppix 4 or 5 and u'll find the transparencies in it very "eye-friendly" not cumbersome. I guess Mac doesn't gives u "eye-friendly" transparencies and thats why u find it cumbersome.


I even find the transparency in your first screenshot bothersome, and the second one useless. Gotta love the wallpaper though, it's cool. I'm a sucker for high quality three dimensional graphic design. 



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> The system admin can install everything at his disposal and end-user can njoy it. So end-user doesn't have to do it himself!!


Where does this system-admin come in? On a single-user PC, there is only one person who has to do the instaling and he only has to use the machine. Therefore, instaling is an end-user task.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> I'm very dissapointed if tranparent windows aren't there in Mac. Didn't expect this. But it seems it ur biaseness towards Mac that is blinding u to see the importance of tranparencies.


I did not like transparency even when I used Windows. I had enabled it on XP and it sucked. BTW, there are hacks and applications if you want to enable transparency on Macintosh too. However, the default operating system does not feature them.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> So just to add, I don't like to drag and keep mouse pressed straining my fingers. The method of "Ctrl + *" is much efficient for me.


You find it cumbersome because you are not used to it. And you are not used to it because both Linux and Windows have crippled support for drag-and-drop. Of course you will find it useless if you want to drag a file onto the desktop from a maximised window and you realise that it's not possible. You have gotten used to copy-pasting files.
BTW, Mac OS X (and even Windows) has a feature called click lock. You don't have to keep the mouse button pressed to drag a file around.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> But dude how can u compare when u urself said plethora of times that u r a noobie to Linux world?? Atleast explore the Linux world to the same limit u have explored the Mac world!


I am speaking out of the amount of experience I have. For example, I know it for a fact that Linux does not have spring-loaded folders and Mac OS X has them, so I am qualified to comment on it.
__________


> So you want all that Mac functionality, effects, animation, consistency etc. on Linux for free and don't want to wait for that...STRANGE!!!


Paid Linux is the same as free Linux. And if you accept that free Linux is inferior to a Macintosh, then the debate is over. OK. That is what I have been trying to tell you.



> Why don't you understand that Linux is not developed under a roof with a team of programmers who can interact with each other and discuss on problems with much more flexibility. Linux is a community effort which takes time and effort to develop something. All the programmers work in a non-consistent manner with little interaction with each other. Beryl is developed in only six months which took 5 years for Microsoft programmers. Don't you think that this is a surprise!!!


They have not even mastered those effects yet. Why are you comparing it to Microsoft? What does Microsoft know about good interface design!


----------



## gxsaurav (Nov 30, 2006)

> Paid Linux is the same as free Linux. And if you accept that free Linux is inferior to a Macintosh, then the debate is over. OK. That is what I have been trying to tell you.



Ok, u r compleately wrong here, despite of being a linux noob myself, i can say they are compleately different, U don't need to hunt for codecs or drivers in Paid linux such as Mandriva


----------



## aryayush (Nov 30, 2006)

OK. I didn't know that. Sorry for the mistake!


----------



## sgireesh (Nov 30, 2006)

> *aryayush says*
> Linus Torvalds spent a lot of hard work on Linux, yes. You HAVE to be prepared to work hard if you want to do something extraordinary. His was a commendable effort, but when I say that he had nothing to lose, I mean to say that he did not have millions of customers requesting all sorts of features, billions of dollars invested in his work, any sort of market goodwill to maintain or shareholders to satisfy.



Well in the last four years if i read that right! So in that case you should subscribe to the linux mailing list to see how many people come asking for questions to the kernel developers. Also how much is involved in the project. 

Even in the beginning can't say he had nothing to lose in terms of money. For any programmer, time is money. 

Leave out linux having a base to build on. When they started, both the mac and dos had a base to work too.. (if you have heard of PC-dos, IBM, AT&T etc etc..) 


> *
> aryayush says*
> tell me how to enable beryl on etchy


i have  posted how to enable compiz on mandriva. I use mandriva so i have done that. As for enabling beryl on mandriva, refer 

*seerofsouls.com/wiki/How-Tos/BerylMandriva2007.



> *aryayush says*
> Where does this system-admin come in? On a single-user PC, there is only one person who has to do the instaling and he only has to use the machine. Therefore, instaling is an end-user task.



Did you watch Spider man 2 on ur Mac aryayush.. 
_"With great power comes great responsibility..". _
so to have the complete control of your system, you must be ready to do some things atleast. I don't think a MAC allows you "complete control" over your system.



> They have not even mastered those effects yet.


that is going to change. of course they haven't mastered it. but that doesn't mean they aren't good or not nice.



> What does Microsoft know about good interface design!


thats something to cheer


----------



## aryayush (Nov 30, 2006)

caleb in the topic "Mandriva 2007 Questions Of A Novice" said:
			
		

> Before I posted started this thread I went to Mandriva website & also their forum but there was way too much of jaragon (for a newbie to linux like me) to even understand anything.


See? This is the problem with Linux.



			
				sgireesh said:
			
		

> I don't think a MAC allows you "complete control" over your system.


Tell me something you can do as a system-admin on Linux and you think it cannot be done on a Macintosh. Don't give me some crap like 'you can view/modify the source code' or something along those lines. I couldn't care less about the code of the applications I use.


----------



## sgireesh (Nov 30, 2006)

> Tell me something you can do as a system-admin on Linux and you think it cannot be done on a Macintosh. Don't give me some crap like 'you can view/modify the source code' or something along those lines. I couldn't care less about the code of the applications I use.



I can change my desktop environment.... 
Login to gnome once, kde next, icewm next, well you get the idea. change of scene.

i could upgrade when i want without getting to worry about my credit card.




> Originally Posted by caleb in the topic "Mandriva 2007 Questions Of A Novice"
> Before I posted started this thread I went to Mandriva website & also their forum but there was way too much of jaragon (for a newbie to linux like me) to even understand anything.



aryayush, first read how simple it is to configure beryl from the link i gave. also read how to configure compiz that i posted. Then try and get the book 

SUSE Linux
By Chris Brown 

or boot ubuntu from the live cd and read the example file given. It has some simple and upto the point instructions.

If you cant understand things even after that you probably should get someone to work your computer for you...


> Don't give me some crap like 'you can view/modify the source code' or something along those lines.


giving away the source code is not crap aryayush... it is a sense of freedom. Never, ever call that crap..


----------



## mediator (Nov 30, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> As if Linux would have been so advanced in four years had it been launched when Apple and MS came out with their first operating systems. No, it wouldn't. It would also have been struggling to find a footing had it been released as a bare-bones OS. But Linus Torvalds must have read some books on software programming and kernel development, or looked up the internet, or gained the knowledge from whichever source he preferred. *But the technology was already out there because Apple and Microsoft had done it before.* That is the base I am talking about.


Technology was way before Apple and Microsoft had done it. UNIX mother of all OSs. Remember?
If u had read about Linux Torvalds, he just created the kernel because UNIX OS was too expensive for him. So he just created a simple kernel to match the functionalities of OS. He sole task was to maintain the kernel.
Also Linux was primarily meant to be a server OS with more functionalities and applications in Networking field than any other area. But now things are changing with Linux achieving new milestones in Desktop area too.

Is there something wrong with Linux developers reading books on software programming etc? Mac developers also must have read some books to achieve M.Tech degrees first and then written or copied codes for Mac applications. So what so fuzz about it?



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> You know what, you should accept it gracefully if your preferred platform has some drawbacks, which everything in the world is bound to have. The windows jangling around like a piece of wet cloth when you move them around serves no purpose at all. I have seen it in action so I know what I am talking about. Why should you feel that the desktop is fluid? It's not supposed to be.


Somethings are for eyecandy too. Why is there a genie effect in Mac?? It serves no purpose. I dunno why do u say that it helps in identifying the minimised apps, coz in Linux minimised apps can be identified easily and the rest which are working in background like mp3 player, software installation, downloading etc can be moved to different workspaces. I hope u know what workspace is.
Can u show me some video so as to let me know that genie effect really has some purpose??



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Not when either Front Row is activated or you are Command - Tabbing between applications.


Well thats a dissapointing end-users experience then that u have to take snapshots with cellphone for that.
In GNU/Linux u can take snapshot anywhere without any restriction for such kinds of images as u posted!



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> OK then, can you tell me how you did it? I want to try it out too.


*ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Edgy/EyeCandy
*wiki.beryl-project.org/index.php?title=Install/Ubuntu
*wiki.beryl-project.org/index.php?title=Install/Ubuntu/Edgy/AiGLX

Last one was mine for intel!



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> I even find the transparency in your first screenshot bothersome, and the second one useless. Gotta love the wallpaper though, it's cool. I'm a sucker for high quality three dimensional graphic design.


Yea I luv such kinda of wallapers. Neways the transparency is awesome. It may be bothersome to u, but I find it better than the default UIs with uninteresting looks. Knoppix is an exception coz it has some transparencies enabled by default.
Neways I think it completely depends on the end-user of what he/she likes transparencies, elegancy, crystal effects, glassy effects or whateva. So u may like elegancy, but I like transparency+abstract stuff!



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Where does this system-admin come in? On a single-user PC, there is only one person who has to do the instaling and he only has to use the machine. Therefore, instaling is an end-user task.


 I understand what u r trying to say. But if u wanna debate for end-users experience then installation is outta topic. Please try to understand the ethics of debate and the various classifications.

There are 3 persons on a Business PC : an admin, a transaction operator, and an end-user. Both have their own meanings. But the work of all the 3 can be done by one person too. But again the total he is doing is for installation, transactions, playing games and njoying the UIs and listening to music etc i.e the work of admin,operator and end-user. U cannot say he is an end-user alone. 

I hope u got my point now. Please don't make me repeat such simple concepts again n again as it becomes very uninteresting and demoralising. 




			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> I did not like transparency even when I used Windows. I had enabled it on XP and it sucked. BTW, there are hacks and applications if you want to enable transparency on Macintosh too. However, the default operating system does not feature them.


Yea I have experienced transparencies on windows and yea I agree they are no where near Linux counterparts.
Neways if u don't like transparencies, then it doesn't mean the rest of Mac users and Linux and windows users too don't like it. So its dissappointing as an end-users experience for Mac.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> BTW, Mac OS X (and even Windows) has a feature called click lock. You don't have to keep the mouse button pressed to drag a file around.


I know that mouse need not be kept pressed, I have used it but again I find the the keyboard method much efficient than mouse one. And its not somethings about getting used to, its more about efficient computing. There are websites which don't even allow u to right click and all the UI functions are disabled there with the help of javascripts. What will u do for such sites?? Drag and drop?? Try "ctrl + *" method now! Its Much efficient and always working!!



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> I am speaking out of the amount of experience I have. For example, I know it for a fact that Linux does not have spring-loaded folders and Mac OS X has them, so I am qualified to comment on it.


But I'll recommend that u have some nice experience of 2-3 yrs first in both the OS's before even comparing and commenting upon them. There are a lotta things u still don't know about Linux and then saying Linux doesn't have this and that. e.g the things showed by @sgireesh and some effects by me and the copying stuff etc. But I'm glad ur acknowledging and accepting the truth.




			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> *Paid Linux is the same as free Linux.* And if you accept that free Linux is inferior to a Macintosh, then the debate is over. OK. That is what I have been trying to tell you.


Who said so?? Please goto proprietary Linux sites and then tell if propreitary Linux is same as free ones.
And I'm not saying free linux is inferior to propreitary. How can u even imagine such a thing and bring such an absurd statement here?? 
U like everything to be installed in default installation, thats why I brought propreitary Linux in picture specially for u. Otherwise for the person who knows about the classification of users on the basis of their task, I wudn't even have to narrate him the differences between such users and make him understand that installation is not a part of end-user. But u can't understand such a simple concept. And then saying its "inferior, debate is over"??

Is Mac inferior coz it doesn't have office suite installed by default? It may not be much of a use for kids who like tp play games. But it is of extreme imprtance for students and working people. And thats a major setback to end-users experience in ur terminology who can't understand installation isn't a task of end-users.

Please try to debate without ur fanboyism and biaseness and u'll understand the whole lotta classifications and their meanings.

I hope u don't count fanboyism into personal comments. Even admins here with yellow coloured nicknames use it freely. 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> OK. I didn't know that. Sorry for the mistake!


Thats what I meant. Please have some good 2-3 yrs experience on Linux, know the classifications, the various differences like ones in paid and free distros and then compare and comment!

Neways I request u to please read the history of Linux,Mac and windows and history of computing and then compare and comment which one had a base and all.


----------



## aryayush (Nov 30, 2006)

sgireesh said:
			
		

> I can change my desktop environment....
> Login to gnome once, kde next, icewm next, well you get the idea. change of scene.


I knew you could say only this. Well, I don't know a single Mac user who has ever expressed a wish to change the UI of Mac OS X, so that would be a pretty useless feature to provide. Plus, you can use software like ShapeShifter to change the theme if you want to. I tried it once, but I like the default theme so much that I reverted back to it.



			
				sgireesh said:
			
		

> i could upgrade when i want without getting to worry about my credit card.


What does being (or not being) the system-admin have to do anything with it?



			
				sgireesh said:
			
		

> aryayush, first read how simple it is to configure beryl from the link i gave.


It is easy only on Mandriva and Fedora Core 6 because they come bundled with support for XGL/Compiz. The process for enabling those effects on Ubuntu or OpenSUSE is much more difficult. At least, that's what I gathered from the various tutorials I have read.



			
				sgireesh said:
			
		

> or boot ubuntu from the live cd and read the example file given. It has some simple and upto the point instructions.


I did not get your point. What example file?



			
				sgireesh said:
			
		

> If you cant understand things even after that you probably should get someone to work your computer for you...


I'll have you know that I am very competent with a computer. I am the best among my family and friends. My brother called me from Siliguri to Kolkata for a software he is getting developed and I made a lot of contribution to the project. So please do not doubt my ability with a computer. My extensive knowledge of computer software is my most prized asset. (Of course, I know very little actual coding and am probably bested by many users here, but I would like to believe that I am well above the average computer user.)


----------



## mediator (Nov 30, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> I knew you could say only this. Well, *I don't know a single Mac user who has ever expressed a wish to change the UI of Mac OS X, so that would be a pretty useless feature to provide.* Plus, you can use software like ShapeShifter to change the theme if you want to. I tried it once, but I like the default theme so much that I reverted back to it.


Thats just an excuse! U mean Mac doesn't even have options for window managers?? Thats terribly dissapointing.
Its well known fact that mood of a person changes with climate and happening in surroundings. He likes to experience different things and not the same old thing which looks more dull after sometime. 
U mean Mac has only one window manager to decorate and stare at??  Thats again dissapointing for end-users!



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> It is easy only on Mandriva and Fedora Core 6 because they come bundled with support for XGL/Compiz. The process for enabling those effects on Ubuntu or OpenSUSE is much more difficult. At least, that's what I gathered from the various tutorials I have read.


So what?? Previously u were saying that they have to be installed separately. I already told I prefer Ubuntu and fedora, some people might prefer Mandriva. Fight is between Mac and Linux, why are u being specific to a particular distro?? All distros aren't the same, Fedora is montrously bundled and Ubuntu is lightly bundled. Will u say Linux doesn't come bundled with enough apps?? 
Thats the real pleasure, that the competition between varous linux vendors is so great that we end-users experience different things with the release of each new distro.

I didn't know XGL/compiz come bundled with FC6 and mandriva coz I still use Fedora 5 on desktop. Anyways that enhances my argument of end-users experience even more. What say??



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> I'll have you know that I am very competent with a computer. I am the best among my family and friends. My brother called me from Siliguri to Kolkata for a software he is getting developed and I made a lot of contribution to the project. So please do not doubt my ability with a computer. *My extensive knowledge of computer software* is my most prized asset. (Of course, I know very little actual coding and am probably bested by many users here, but I would like to believe that I am well above the average computer user.)


U have extensive knowledge but its surprising that u still don't know that installation isn't counted in the task of end-user.


----------



## gxsaurav (Nov 30, 2006)

meditator, u r in luck 

I just saw a movie, the devil wears Prada, fantastic one....andrea is hot...

anyway, back to point, in this movie, there is a scene of just a few seconds showing the geenie effect in one of the computer she was working on, i cut the video here it is

*rapidshare.com/files/5436359/geenie_effect.mp4.html

Quicktime H.264 format, i hope it playes on linux, cos it will on Windows & Mac
__________


			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Thats just an excuse! U mean Mac doesn't even have options for window managers?? Thats terribly dissapointing.
> Its well known fact that mood of a person changes with climate and happening in surroundings..



No wonder...when u r in love, the blue & White theme of Mac changes to White & Pink


----------



## aryayush (Nov 30, 2006)

mediator said:
			
		

> I hope u know what workspace is.


Why do you keep posting statements like this one?
'I hope you know what _this_ is.', 'I hope you know what _that_ is.'
I USE virtual desktops and I do not need anyone to instruct me what a workspace is about. If I cannot understand some terminology, I will look it up or ask you, you don't need to keep 'hoping' that I know the words you use.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Somethings are for eyecandy too. Why is there a genie effect in Mac?? It serves no purpose. I dunno why do u say that it helps in identifying the minimised apps, coz in Linux minimised apps can be identified easily and the rest which are working in background like mp3 player, software installation, downloading etc can be moved to different workspaces. I hope u know what workspace is.
> Can u show me some video so as to let me know that genie effect really has some purpose??


I already replied to this and I am not sitting here to spoon-feed anyone. There are plenty of videos on YouTube. Do a simple search and check 'em out.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Well thats a dissapointing end-users experience then that u have to take snapshots with cellphone for that.


You cannot take a screenshot while 'Alt - Tabbing' on either Linux (I checked out Ubuntu) or Windows. The least you can do before posting something is try it out. It would have hardly taken a few seconds.
And how does not being able to take a screenshot on two particular instances make the end-user experience less than satisfying? The support for taking screenshots on Macintosh is much more versatile than any other OS. You can virtually take a screenshot of any activity.
In Ubuntu, I cannot even take a screenshot while I am dragging something.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> In GNU/Linux u can take snapshot anywhere without any restriction for such kinds of images as u posted!


Try doing that while dragging something or 'Alt +Tabbing' between windows.

Talking about 'Alt + Tab' switching, you cannot use the mouse while using 'Alt + Tab' on Ubuntu. You cannot even close windows without bringing them to the foreground. On Mac, you can use the mouse and quit or hide the applications while using 'Command + Tab'.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> *ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Edgy/EyeCandy
> *wiki.beryl-project.org/index.php?title=Install/Ubuntu
> *wiki.beryl-project.org/index.php?title=Install/Ubuntu/Edgy/AiGLX
> 
> Last one was mine for intel!


Show that to any regular computer user. The last thing they will say is that it is easy.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> I understand what u r trying to say. But if u wanna debate for end-users experience then installation is outta topic. Please try to understand the ethics of debate and the various classifications.
> 
> There are 3 persons on a Business PC : an admin, a transaction operator, and an end-user. Both have their own meanings. But the work of all the 3 can be done by one person too. But again the total he is doing is for installation, transactions, playing games and njoying the UIs and listening to music etc i.e the work of admin,operator and end-user. U cannot say he is an end-user alone.
> 
> I hope u got my point now. Please don't make me repeat such simple concepts again n again as it becomes very uninteresting and demoralising.


Sorry for not following the rules, sir - but please don't fail me in the examinations!
You do this every time. The moment you run out of points to make, you start saying that the topic is not within the 'ethics' of debate.
All I know is that I am the sole user of my computer. I have to do whatever is to be done on it. Therefore, if I want to instal anything on my computer, I have to do it myself. Tell me one thing, do you call some technician every time you want to instal something on your OS? Or do you not consider yourself to be an end-user?



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Yea I have experienced transparencies on windows and yea I agree they are no where near Linux counterparts.
> Neways if u don't like transparencies, then it doesn't mean the rest of Mac users and Linux and windows users too don't like it. So its dissappointing as an end-users experience for Mac.





			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> TW, there are hacks and applications if you want to enable transparency on Macintosh too.





			
				mediator said:
			
		

> I know that mouse need not be kept pressed, I have used it but again I find the the keyboard method much efficient than mouse one. And its not somethings about getting used to, its more about efficient computing. There are websites which don't even allow u to right click and all the UI functions are disabled there with the help of javascripts. What will u do for such sites?? Drag and drop?? Try "ctrl + *" method now! Its Much efficient and always working!!


No website can block you from dragging its contents anywhere. I have only ever come across sites that block right clicking and drag-and-drop does not involve right-clicking at all. Before getting used to a Macintosh, I found drag-and-drop cumbersome too. Now I find it cumbersome to use copy-paste.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Please try to debate without ur fanboyism and biaseness and u'll understand the whole lotta classifications and their meanings.


Oh, and you are being totally objective and open to criticism? Yeah, I can see that.


----------



## subratabera (Nov 30, 2006)

Oh, I think you are working too hard to show us the geenie effect on your Mac!!! Here I am to the rescue...
Use Wink (basically a Linux product ). Using Wink you can create content viewable across the web. Similar applications sell for hundreds of dollars, while Wink is free with unrivaled features...With Wink you can actually record your desktop events and then save them as individual images or a merged flash animation...

*www.debugmode.com/wink/wink.png 

Hope this help...


----------



## mediator (Nov 30, 2006)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> meditator, u r in luck
> 
> I just saw a movie, the devil wears Prada, fantastic one....andrea is hot...
> 
> ...



 lol


Is that it in the genie effect on Mac?? Uhh well, what I heard all the way was some exaggeration then.


----------



## aryayush (Nov 30, 2006)

mediator said:
			
		

> So what?? Previously u were saying that they have to be installed separately. I already told I prefer Ubuntu and fedora, some people might prefer Mandriva. Fight is between Mac and Linux, why are u being specific to a particular distro?? All distros aren't the same, Fedora is montrously bundled and Ubuntu is lightly bundled. Will u say Linux doesn't come bundled with enough apps??
> Thats the real pleasure, that the competition between varous linux vendors is so great that we end-users experience different things with the release of each new distro.


But you cannot keep changing your operating system every now and then, can you? That is why I requested at the beginning of the thread to argue your points keeping any particular distro in mind. Of course, if you count the features of all the distros combined, the Mac or Windows might never be able to compare to Linux. You are counting the whole of Linux (all distros included) as a single entity, but you cannot run all the distros together, can you? So if you are debating about Ubuntu, don't say that it is easy to install the XGL effects or if you are centering on Mandriva, don't say that Ubuntu is good at this thing and that thing, etc. Get my point? You cannot compare one operating system (Mac OS X Tiger) to the whole of Linux, you just can't.
__________


			
				mediator said:
			
		

> lol
> 
> 
> Is that it in the genie effect on Mac?? Uhh well, what I heard all the way was some exaggeration then.


You have to see it with 'Shift' pressed (in slow motion) to see the effect.


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## subratabera (Nov 30, 2006)

> But you cannot keep changing your operating system every now and then, can you? That is why I requested at the beginning of the thread to argue your points keeping any particular distro in mind. Of course, if you count the features of all the distros combined, the Mac or Windows might never be able to compare to Linux. You are counting the whole of Linux (all distros included) as a single entity, but you cannot run all the distros together, can you? So if you are debating about Ubuntu, don't say that it is easy to install the XGL effects or if you are centering on Mandriva, don't say that Ubuntu is good at this thing and that thing, etc. Get my point? You cannot compare one operating system (Mac OS X Tiger) to the whole of Linux, you just can't.


Yes he can!!! Because every new software can be installed on any Linux distro with a little effort (except few, such as SELinux in Fedora is unique). For example Beryl can be installed on any distro you like...not just a specific distro. Linux is a community effort and any good invention which makes the user experience better is implemented in every Linux distro. That's why features from any Linux distro can be given as an example IMHO...


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## mediator (Nov 30, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> Why do you keep posting statements like this one?
> 'I hope you know what this is.', 'I hope you know what that is.'
> I USE virtual desktops and I do not need anyone to instruct me what a workspace is about. If I cannot understand some terminology, I will look it up or ask you, you don't need to keep 'hoping' that I know the words you use.


Why r u getting annoyed?? U dudn't even know that installation isn't task of end-users and here u were starting a thread for end-users, u didn't even know the simple difference between paid and free linux distros etc. So I have to be sure when I talk of new points in my posts.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> I already replied to this and I am not sitting here to spoon-feed anyone. There are plenty of videos on YouTube. Do a simple search and check 'em out.


Well ilife or wateva that video editing software be, i thought u might be able to give me glimpse of it and some end-user's experience. U may take the video from ur cellphone again! Wat say?



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> You cannot take a screenshot while 'Alt - Tabbing' on either Linux (I checked out Ubuntu) or Windows. The least you can do before posting something is try it out. It would have hardly taken a few seconds.
> And how does not being able to take a screenshot on two particular instances make the end-user experience less than satisfying? The support for taking screenshots on Macintosh is much more versatile than any other OS. You can virtually take a screenshot of any activity.
> In Ubuntu, *I cannot even take a screenshot while I am dragging something.*


Well I can, just press the printscreen.  Isn't that simple as end-users experience?? Yea 'alt-tabbing' snap cannot be done, but dragging snap can be done way easily. 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Talking about 'Alt + Tab' switching, *you cannot use the mouse while using 'Alt + Tab' on Ubuntu.* You cannot even close windows without bringing them to the foreground. On Mac, you can use the mouse and quit or hide the applications while using 'Command + Tab'.


Well I didn't try such thing on Ubuntu, will try it later. But here right now I can easily move my mouse while using 'alt-tab' on fedora 5.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Show that to any regular computer user. The last thing they will say is that it is easy.


Gaash! Installation isn't a task of end-users brother. Do I have to repeat the whole thing again for u?? 

Neways most people in Open Source section see it as nobrainer and remark it as easy. U may keep a close watch in Open Source section. I guess ur still not out of ur biasness towards Mac.

I request u to never discuss on this topic in real debates face to face coz u still repeat such things about end-users even when I enlightened u about the classifications more than a dozen times now.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Sorry for not following the rules, sir - but please don't fail me in the examinations!
> You do this every time. The moment you run out of points to make, you start saying that the topic is not within the 'ethics' of debate.
> *All I know is that I am the sole user of my computer. I have to do whatever is to be done on it. Therefore, if I want to instal anything on my computer, I have to do it myself. Tell me one thing, do you call some technician every time you want to instal something on your OS? Or do you not consider yourself to be an end-user?*


It seems from ur posts that ur geting impatient and jealous and are about to flame me now.

But yes u r doing terrible in ur exams. U r repeating things again n again not conforming to "ethics" of debate. Its not me who has run outta point, everyone here can see that who has actually run outta points. U r the one who has seen both Mac and Linux and started this thread. So everyone expects u to talk sensibly and give some comments about the comparison without any fanboyism or biasness. Its only u who can introduce new points, all of us can only mark if its correct for Linux or windows since u also bringing windows in this Mac Vs linux thread. 

About the highlighted part, its very surprising that u r still repeating and can't understand a simple concept even when I gave u an example. Even an american can understand such things. All the people, even a kid can understand such things and agree to it. But u r still.....?? How much time will it take u to understand such a simple concept. I told u to read SE books or some references to IEEE etc. U haven't even done that and r arguing with me unnecessarily.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> TW, there are hacks and applications if you want to enable transparency on Macintosh too.


What kinda of hacks in closed ource software??



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Oh, and you are being totally objective and open to criticism? Yeah, I can see that.


Yes, everybody here can see who is being a fanboy and who is saying "I didn't know that" here again n again in a field he thinks he is acquainted well enough in.


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## subratabera (Nov 30, 2006)

mail2and said:
			
		

> BTW, a bare-bones Mac Mini costs 32-33k.





			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> subratabera said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*images.apple.com/macmini/images/indexports20060229.jpg

How can you carry this thing with you in the office!!!


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## aryayush (Nov 30, 2006)

subratabera said:
			
		

> Yes he can!!! Because every new software can be installed on any Linux distro with a little effort (except few, such as SELinux in Fedora is unique). For example Beryl can be installed on any distro you like...not just a specific distro. Linux is a community effort and any good invention which makes the user experience better is implemented in every Linux distro. That's why features from any Linux distro can be given as an example IMHO...


Suppose you have Ubuntu installed and have fifty software installed on it. A new version of Mandriva comes out in a month's time. Will you install it and then re-install all your applications?
Plus, suppose there is a feature you like in Mandriva and another you really love in Ubuntu, can you run both at the same time?
If I was asked these two questions, my answer would be 'No'. So how can I comapre the features of many different operating systems combined against a single one?



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Well I can, just press the printscreen.  Isn't that simple as end-users experience?? Yea 'alt-tabbing' snap cannot be done, but dragging snap can be done way easily.


I don't have a 'Print Screen' key, so I changed the shortcut to various key combinations but I did not manage to take a screenshot while dragging something.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Well I didn't try such thing on Ubuntu, will try it later. But here right now I can easily move my mouse while using 'alt-tab' on fedora 5.


By not being able to use the mouse, I did not mean that the mouse refused to function. I mean that when you are using 'Alt + Tab', you should be able to move your mouse in either horizontal direction to move the selection around instead of repeatedly pressing the 'Tab' key. You cannot do that on Ubuntu (and I don't think you can do so on Fedora Core either).



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> It seems from ur posts that ur geting impatient and jealous


Jealous of what! 



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> About the highlighted part, its very surprising that u r still repeating and can't understand a simple concept even when I gave u an example.


Your example is of just one particular situation which is of a business that has three users assigned for various tasks.
But I am sitting here alone in my house using Ubuntu and I want to see some classy effects on it. So I will have to install XGL, right? And I am the end user here, right? So an end user has to install it, right?
Suppose you buy a PC for yourself and want to run Linux on it. You will have to install it yourself, won't you? And you are the end user, aren't you?
I don't even know what you are trying to prove by this silly debate. Just trying to justify the fact that it is totally fine for the installation of some nice effects on Ubuntu to be a hell of a task to achieve.
__________


			
				subratabera said:
			
		

> *images.apple.com/macmini/images/indexports20060229.jpg
> 
> How can you carry this thing with you in the office!!!


LOL! Reminds me of the time when I was too small to read text and just used to stare at the pictures in comic books. If you took the pain to find the picture of a Mac Mini, the least you could have done was look up what size it is. It is no larger than a standard tiffin box and weighs in at a modest 1.31 kg. It is 'just 6.5 inches square and 2 inches small'. I am sure you should have no trouble carrying something that small with you to your office (or wherever you wish to carry it to).


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## subratabera (Nov 30, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> Suppose you have Ubuntu installed and have fifty software installed on it. A new version of Mandriva comes out in a month's time. Will you install it and then re-install all your applications?
> Plus, suppose there is a feature you like in Mandriva and another you really love in Ubuntu, can you run both at the same time?
> If I was asked these two questions, my answer would be 'No'. So how can I comapre the features of many different operating systems combined against a single one?


Well, every major feature is frequently added to the repositories of any Linux distro. If you love a feature of Mandriva and want it on Ubuntu (except for some basic unique native features) you can definitely find something alike for Ubuntu also or wait for it to be updated for Ubuntu repositories. Every new edition includes many new upgrades which comes from different platforms. That's the magic of open-source. Nothing is hidden from us...


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## mehulved (Nov 30, 2006)

aryayush said:
			
		

> It is easy only on Mandriva and Fedora Core 6 because they come bundled with support for XGL/Compiz. The process for enabling those effects on Ubuntu or OpenSUSE is much more difficult. At least, that's what I gathered from the various tutorials I have read.


It's not bundled out of the box with most distros cos still the 3D desktops aren't stable, once they will be, all distros will start incorporating them out of the box soon enough.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> I did not get your point. What example file?


 It's link is there on the desktop of the Live CD. I can't remember exact location to it rite now.


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## subratabera (Nov 30, 2006)

> LOL! Reminds me of the time when I was too small to read text and just used to stare at the pictures in comic books. If you took the pain to find the picture of a Mac Mini, the least you could have done was look up what size it is. It is no larger than a standard tiffin box and weighs in at a modest 1.31 kg. It is 'just 6.5 inches square and 2 inches small'. I am sure you should have no trouble carrying something that small with you to your office (or wherever you wish to carry it to).


But where is the screen...


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## praka123 (Nov 30, 2006)

ubuntu's example contents are in /usr/share/example-content/


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## mehulved (Nov 30, 2006)

subratabera said:
			
		

> But where is the screen...


 Screen is at office. AFAIK, Macs don't include screen, that is to be bought separately.


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## subratabera (Nov 30, 2006)

tech_your_future said:
			
		

> Screen is at office. AFAIK, Macs don't include screen, that is to be bought separately.


And the keyboard should be in the bathroom, and the mouse in canteen...And the UPS must be in the managers room. BTW can it be directly plug into power or we need a separate adapter for that also...


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## mail2and (Nov 30, 2006)

tech_your_future said:
			
		

> Screen is at office. AFAIK, Macs don't include screen, that is to be bought separately.



Actually, the Mac Mini and the Mac Pros do not include screens. iMacs and the Mac Portables(MacBook and MacBook Pro), however, do include screens.
__________


			
				subratabera said:
			
		

> And the keyboard should be in the bathroom, and the mouse in canteen...And the UPS must be in the managers room. BTW can it be directly plug into power or we need a separate adapter for that also...



The mouse is in the chairman's bedroom. What's your point?


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## mehulved (Nov 30, 2006)

OK me and andy have agreed that this is going nowhere. So, I have locked this thread, no point in letting it go any further.


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