# Pyramid fraud: ED attaches assets worth Rs 757 crore of Amway India



## Zangetsu (Apr 18, 2022)

_"A money laundering investigation by the ED revealed that Amway is running a pyramid fraud in the guise of direct selling multi-level marketing network," a statement by ED said_

*Source: **timesofindia.indiatimes.com/busine...crore-of-amway-india/articleshow/90912558.cms


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## RumbaMon19 (Apr 18, 2022)

Tupperware and Herbalife too have been doing this


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## Desmond (Apr 18, 2022)

This is nothing new. I am sure everybody knows Amway's business model.

I don't get why MLMs have not been outlawed yet.


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## Desmond (Apr 19, 2022)

RumbaMon19 said:


> Herbalife


There is a documentary on Netflix called "Betting on zero" which exposes Herbalife's exploitative business practices.

Also, watch this if you haven't:


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## REY619 (Apr 19, 2022)

I guess SafeShopIndia is like this as well?


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## RumbaMon19 (Apr 19, 2022)

Desmond said:


> Also, watch this if you haven't:



Back in 2019 My neighbour was trying to sell my parents Herbalife combo, it had a protein  shake, which had to be replaced with breakfast and a small orange powder to be substituted for tea. he told that our breakfast(parantha, oats etc.) is unhealthy blah blah.


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## RumbaMon19 (Apr 19, 2022)

REY619 said:


> I guess SafeShopIndia is like this as well?


IndiaShopee, vestige all of these.


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## Desmond (Apr 19, 2022)

REY619 said:


> I guess SafeShopIndia is like this as well?


How to know whether a company is a MLM company? Look for these red flags:


They are mostly made up of individual members who sell the products/services and recruit other members.
They suggest that you have to recruit people under you and those recruits will recruit others under them.
They will generally invite you to some fancy cafe to discuss "business opportunities" (This seems to be a very common MO of MLM recruiters, also they will almost always be some close acquaintance of yours).
They will be very secretive about it if you ask them about it and insist that you speak with them in person (because many of them know the bad reputation of MLMs, this is especially very common among more obscure MLMs).
If you meet said recruiter, they will almost always subtly flaunt their wealth and speak about how much free time they have, etc. This is done to prey on your insecurities.

I know all of this from personal experience. If any of these points are true then it's likely an MLM.


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## RumbaMon19 (Apr 19, 2022)

^Yupp,
They also show large cheques recived by company, in lakhs, printed over large flex like they give in KBC and how they earned this in one month.


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## RumbaMon19 (Apr 19, 2022)

Also Modicare does some this sort of activity.


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## Zangetsu (Apr 19, 2022)

Amway has Seminars on playground/stadiums. And many of its old members have Helicopter. They also give Audio CD to listen to their Business Model


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## REY619 (Apr 19, 2022)

RumbaMon19 said:


> ^Yupp,
> They also show large cheques recived by company, in lakhs, printed over large flex like they give in KBC and how they earned this in one month.





Desmond said:


> How to know whether a company is a MLM company? Look for these red flags:
> 
> 
> They are mostly made up of individual members who sell the products/services and recruit other members.
> ...



True that. All of these "companies" have same MO.


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## Desmond (Apr 19, 2022)

Zangetsu said:


> Amway has Seminars on playground/stadiums. And many of its old members have Helicopter. They also give Audio CD to listen to their Business Model


You'll get to see all that when you agree to join them or sometimes they will try to convince you to attend such a seminar to try and convince you to join.


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## quicky008 (Apr 19, 2022)

also they might mention that one doesn't need any special qualifications to do the aforesaid job and invite folks from all spheres of life to come and join their team-all they say one would need is a "phone with internet connection" and that's it.

They put special emphasis on lonely housewives,retired people and jobless students while recruiting potential candidates.


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## Zangetsu (Apr 20, 2022)

Desmond said:


> You'll get to see all that when you agree to join them or sometimes they will try to convince you to attend such a seminar to try and convince you to join.


I know it as my Father joined it long time back when Amway was making its footprint in India. He had to buy the 5k INR kit and got Audio Cassettes as goodies to listen to. Went to few Seminars and then left it within 1 year. _He gave the reason of leaving as middle class people cannot afford it and even if they afford it then they will have to be a Salesman like Rocket Singh  _


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## Zangetsu (Apr 20, 2022)

quicky008 said:


> also they might mention that one doesn't need any special qualifications to do the aforesaid job and invite folks from all spheres of life to come and join their team-all they say one would need is a "phone with internet connection" and that's it.
> 
> They put special emphasis on lonely housewives,retired people and jobless students while recruiting potential candidates.


They make you feel greedy by showing Cheque they receive per month once you have a starting chain link system.


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## vidhubhushan (Apr 20, 2022)

i have been offered a golden opportunity in Qnet. unfortunately i didn't had the money so i couldn't get filthy rich.


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## Desmond (Apr 20, 2022)

vidhubhushan said:


> i have been offered a golden opportunity in Qnet. unfortunately i didn't had the money so i couldn't get filthy rich.


Have you attended any of their seminars in Bangkok/Dubai?


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## Nerevarine (Apr 20, 2022)

Desmond said:


> Have you attended any of their seminars in Bangkok/Dubai?


sarcasm


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## vidhubhushan (Apr 20, 2022)

Desmond said:


> Have you attended any of their seminars in Bangkok/Dubai?



no but i was shown many pics of it and the first person who i met talked about it. i think it was in 2011 or 2012. that person wanted me to "invest" some 5-6 lakhs or more in it. i didn't had that much to spare as in 2010 we spent whatever we had on my mother's treatment during her hospitalization and it was still going on then. during the talks i was able to extract how it will be INVESTED. i thanked him for the opportunity and returned back. when my mother asked what was it? i told her it was an Uchakka gang.
later 2 more people tried to convince me, one asked me to invest some 30-50000 (on the phone call) and the other 3 lakhs (in cafe coffee day). here they had mobile numbers of people working with banks etc. so that if required, a new INVESTOR could get a loan as well. i actually went there to meet some junior. when some senior investors tried to convince me, i told them this greed for money is waste, its just an illusion. you people need to rise above this falsity and do some work for oppresed people instead of wasting money in places like CCD. just go out and see how many people are poor and hungry out here in our city. they never called again.


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## Desmond (Apr 20, 2022)

Nerevarine said:


> sarcasm


Not really, because I went on the behest of a family member. I thought that I could tolerate the seminar if it meant going on a tour later. But out of the one week I was there, I only got one day free to roam the city. Rest of the time was spent in some huge arena where some members come and talk about how they were dedicated, never lost hope despite losing money, trash talking people who have regular jobs, flaunting all the houses and cars they bought with the money they made, etc. I found their elitist attitude offensive. They even got the lady who climbed mount everest with amputated legs (forgot her name) to come and speak. Seminars start at 7 am in the morning up to 11 pm in the night, so had to wake up at 4 am for breakfast and leave the hotel at around 5:30 am, so I used to get a total of about 4 hours of sleep every day.

All of this just to convince me to join up by my family member.

Though I did get to meet @thetechfreak while I was there, so there was some highlight to my visit. And the one free day I got I visited the museum but didn't get time to see much else.


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## Desmond (Apr 20, 2022)

vidhubhushan said:


> no but i was shown many pics of it and the first person who i met talked about it. i think it was in 2011 or 2012. that person wanted me to "invest" some 5-6 lakhs or more in it. i didn't had that much to spare as in 2010 we spent whatever we had on my mother's treatment during her hospitalization and it was still going on then. during the talks i was able to extract how it will be INVESTED. i thanked him for the opportunity and returned back. when my mother asked what was it? i told her it was an Uchakka gang.
> later 2 more people tried to convince me, one asked me to invest some 30-50000 (on the phone call) and the other 3 lakhs (in cafe coffee day). here they had mobile numbers of people working with banks etc. so that if required, a new INVESTOR could get a loan as well. i actually went there to meet some junior. when some senior investors tried to convince me, i told them this greed for money is waste, its just an illusion. you people need to rise above this falsity and do some work for oppresed people instead of wasting money in places like CCD. just go out and see how many people are poor and hungry out here in our city. they never called again.


Just like them to be manipulative. Everything about what they do looks like a cult.


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## Nerevarine (Apr 20, 2022)

Desmond said:


> Not really, because I went on the behest of a family member. I thought that I could tolerate the seminar if it meant going on a tour later. But out of the one week I was there, I only got one day free to roam the city. Rest of the time was spent in some huge arena where some members come and talk about how they were dedicated, never lost hope despite losing money, trash talking people who have regular jobs, flaunting all the houses and cars they bought with the money they made, etc. I found their elitist attitude offensive. They even got the lady who climbed mount everest with amputated legs (forgot her name) to come and speak. Seminars start at 7 am in the morning up to 11 pm in the night, so had to wake up at 4 am for breakfast and leave the hotel at around 5:30 am, so I used to get a total of about 4 hours of sleep every day.
> 
> All of this just to convince me to join up by my family member.
> 
> Though I did get to meet @thetechfreak while I was there, so there was some highlight to my visit. And the one free day I got I visited the museum but didn't get time to see much else.


my reaction is my profile picture


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## RumbaMon19 (Apr 21, 2022)

Desmond said:


> Not really, because I went on the behest of a family member. I thought that I could tolerate the seminar if it meant going on a tour later. But out of the one week I was there, I only got one day free to roam the city. Rest of the time was spent in some huge arena where some members come and talk about how they were dedicated, never lost hope despite losing money, trash talking people who have regular jobs, flaunting all the houses and cars they bought with the money they made, etc. I found their elitist attitude offensive. They even got the lady who climbed mount everest with amputated legs (forgot her name) to come and speak. Seminars start at 7 am in the morning up to 11 pm in the night, so had to wake up at 4 am for breakfast and leave the hotel at around 5:30 am, so I used to get a total of about 4 hours of sleep every day.
> 
> All of this just to convince me to join up by my family member.
> 
> Though I did get to meet @thetechfreak while I was there, so there was some highlight to my visit. And the one free day I got I visited the museum but didn't get time to see much else.


Which City was the seminar in? Was it free? Cause looking at how these work, they might as well have charged excess for seminar and earned huge profit off attendees.


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## Desmond (Apr 21, 2022)

RumbaMon19 said:


> Which City was the seminar in?


Bangkok.


RumbaMon19 said:


> Was it free?


No. Left a ~1 lakh rupees hole in my pocket. Mostly the cost was for flight ticket, hotel accommodations and conveyance IIRC (didn't get bill so don't know what the breakdown is). I travelled around March 2019 so visa fees were exempt.

Again, I was just looking forward to the trip, the seminar was more of an annoyance to put up with for a while.


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## vidhubhushan (Apr 21, 2022)

Desmond said:


> Not really, because I went on the behest of a family member. I thought that I could tolerate the seminar if it meant going on a tour later. But out of the one week I was there, I only got one day free to roam the city. Rest of the time was spent in some huge arena where some members come and talk about how they were dedicated, never lost hope despite losing money, trash talking people who have regular jobs, flaunting all the houses and cars they bought with the money they made, etc. I found their elitist attitude offensive. They even got the lady who climbed mount everest with amputated legs (forgot her name) to come and speak. Seminars start at 7 am in the morning up to 11 pm in the night, so had to wake up at 4 am for breakfast and leave the hotel at around 5:30 am, so I used to get a total of about 4 hours of sleep every day.
> 
> All of this just to convince me to join up by my family member.
> 
> Though I did get to meet @thetechfreak while I was there, so there was some highlight to my visit. And the one free day I got I visited the museum but didn't get time to see much else.


7 am to 11 pm? bloody hell! i will kick anyone who asks me to do something like that. i did something similar only when my mother was in ICU.


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## Desmond (Apr 22, 2022)

vidhubhushan said:


> 7 am to 11 pm? bloody hell! i will kick anyone who asks me to do something like that. i did something similar only when my mother was in ICU.


The arena where the show was held was about 1 hour drive from the hotel. They had arranged for buses to take everyone there every day. Buses left at 5 am and reached the arena around 6-6:30 am. Then there used to be a huge line to get in since everybody arrives at the same time and then we used to get in slowly. So, yeah, it was quite a hectic morning every day: Wake up at 4 am, get ready, have breakfast, wait for buses to arrive, get on buses, wait 1 hour for the bus to reach the arena, lineup to get in and then listen to f****rs circlejerking for a whole day.

But this is not even the worst part. What's worse is that they all have a very cult-like behaviour. All the speakers were treated like celebrities (with MCs announcing their arrival with intro videos and fireworks) and the founders of the "company" are spoken about with the same reverence as TV gurus. Everybody greeted each other  as "good morning" regardless of time of day. They always speak bad about naysayers saying not to watch or read anything that is critical of them. Anybody who has a regular job or a naysayer is called "bhootiya" and is considered unenlightened and who "does not understand their business model".  They once did a play about a person  stuck in a dull rat race and how joining them freed her from the monotony of life, etc. Being there made me question reality itself, it's an alternate reality where these guys have their own magazines, a youtube-like streaming service, products and services you will never find outside their system, etc. They even have ad videos of these products or services similar to TV ads but only available to their members.


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## vidhubhushan (Apr 22, 2022)

Desmond said:


> The arena where the show was held was about 1 hour drive from the hotel. They had arranged for buses to take everyone there every day. Buses left at 5 am and reached the arena around 6-6:30 am. Then there used to be a huge line to get in since everybody arrives at the same time and then we used to get in slowly. So, yeah, it was quite a hectic morning every day: Wake up at 4 am, get ready, have breakfast, wait for buses to arrive, get on buses, wait 1 hour for the bus to reach the arena, lineup to get in and then listen to f****rs circlejerking for a whole day.
> 
> But this is not even the worst part. What's worse is that they all have a very cult-like behaviour. All the speakers were treated like celebrities (with MCs announcing their arrival with intro videos and fireworks) and the founders of the "company" are spoken about with the same reverence as TV gurus. Everybody greeted each other  as "good morning" regardless of time of day. They always speak bad about naysayers saying not to watch or read anything that is critical of them. Anybody who has a regular job or a naysayer is called "bhootiya" and is considered unenlightened and who "does not understand their business model".  They once did a play about a person  stuck in a dull rat race and how joining them freed her from the monotony of life, etc. Being there made me question reality itself, it's an alternate reality where these guys have their own magazines, a youtube-like streaming service, products and services you will never find outside their system, etc. They even have ad videos of these products or services similar to TV ads but only available to their members.


which means all they need is a new mental asylum to be opened in their name and lifetime free membership for all of them.


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## vidhubhushan (Jun 28, 2022)

@whitestar_999 @Desmond  any idea of pearlvine? someone is telling me everyday that if i miss the bus i.e. don't join by 30/06/22, then i will miss a goldmine.


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## Desmond (Jun 28, 2022)

I am not familiar with them, but sounds a lot like exploiting FOMO. Do they look like some sort of MLM? Do you have any link or source where I can read more about them?

Look for these red flags:


When asked to describe their business they will tend to avoid giving a direct answer.
Their organization consists of uplines and downlines. That is people above you and below you.
They will say things like "there is nothing illegal about this" without you asking.
Searching their name on google gives news articles saying "scam".
Etc.

Note that once you get involved it's very hard to come out. They will usually ask you to make an "investment" of a huge amount, usually around 10 lakhs or so. And the only way to make back that amount will be to recruit others into the MLM. Then you will feel reluctant to leave because of your huge investment.


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## vidhubhushan (Jun 29, 2022)

thanks buddy. their website is pearlvine dot com
since last 2-3 weeks, they are in a movement that account opening will close on 30/06/22 as there are sufficient members. after this they will launch their own crypto and then it will jump to heaven as bitcoin has only 20 lakh members and its price is too much. all members will be seed partners / founder members. blah blah blah.


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## RumbaMon19 (Jun 29, 2022)

> Crypto


Scam.


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## whitestar_999 (Jun 29, 2022)

vidhubhushan said:


> thanks buddy. their website is pearlvine dot com
> since last 2-3 weeks, they are in a movement that account opening will close on 30/06/22 as there are sufficient members. after this they will launch their own crypto and then it will jump to heaven as bitcoin has only 20 lakh members and its price is too much. all members will be seed partners / founder members. blah blah blah.


Anywhere you see "own crypto coin launch" immediately run away.


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## vidhubhushan (Jun 29, 2022)

RumbaMon19 said:


> Scam.


it is but these people are supercharged


whitestar_999 said:


> Anywhere you see "own crypto coin launch" immediately run away.


 told them no today. they tried again saying server is getting overloaded but i said no, thank you.


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## Zangetsu (Jun 29, 2022)

How much money they are asking to Invest ?


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## vidhubhushan (Jun 29, 2022)

Zangetsu said:


> How much money they are asking to Invest ?


initially 2250 out of which half goes to immediate above level person, some gets divided in 7 levels above and 375 to autopool all of which they say is crowdfunding.
then either add 4 people at least or pay 3750 more. 
the height was that they said someone has earned some 600-700 crores and has his own plane and gave some random name as well but no idea where is that person. many twitter posts show people showing thumbs up sign for them but every single of them looks not very well off.


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## RumbaMon19 (Jun 29, 2022)

vidhubhushan said:


> initially 2250 out of which half goes to immediate above level person, some gets divided in 7 levels above and 375 to autopool all of which they say is crowdfunding.
> then either add 4 people at least or pay 3750 more.
> the height was that they said someone has earned some 600-700 crores and has his own plane and gave some random name as well but no idea where is that person. many twitter posts show people showing thumbs up sign for them but every single of them looks not very well off.



The part where money goes to someone above one's level simply translates to scam. After that they expect one to bring 7 more baits?

Also, twitter is full of millionaire bots.

Out of 2250 only 375 is going to pool, which is very less.

Imo, this is not even a scheme, rather seems like straight up scam and lower investor will end up like Raju after investing in this wannabe "Laxmi chit fund" .


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## SaiyanGoku (Jun 29, 2022)

Zangetsu said:


> How much money they are asking to Invest giveaway?


FTFY


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## vidhubhushan (Jun 29, 2022)

RumbaMon19 said:


> The part where money goes to someone above one's level simply translates to scam. After that they expect one to bring 7 more baits?
> 
> Also, twitter is full of millionaire bots.
> 
> ...


i told him since there is no buy / sell part, this is simply money circulation in which my money goes to some people and to recover my money i need to get 4 more bakras but he kept moving in different circles and finally was almost too irritated with us but he couldn't vent it out.
according to the so-called seed partners, they are over 70 lakhs so even with this small amount, the pool has grown to an enormous amount. one person said he had received .4 and 4 dollars worth even without doing anything. i said thank you very much, please leave me in abject poverty.


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## Desmond (Jun 29, 2022)

vidhubhushan said:


> then either add 4 people at least or pay 3750 more


Classic MLM, recruit people below you to earn from them. And those people have to also recruit people under them and so on. To read between the lines: The crypto is just an excuse to move money upwards. I bet the main income is not from the crypto but from recruiting people. These MLMs show the facade of being "direct sellers" with actual products but the products (crypto in this case) is just a medium to move money upwards.



vidhubhushan said:


> but every single of them looks not very well off.


That's because they actually aren't. They have to show support so make the scheme look attractive to outsiders. Many of them buy expensive cars, flats on loan just to share on social media. Trust me, I know some people (relatives) who have done this.

Edit: To be fair, it is possible to make a lot of money using such a scheme, but only if you are willing to be unscrupulous and cut-throat. Very few people actually make a profit this way and most, especially towards the bottom of the pyramid, lose more money than they gain.


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## vidhubhushan (Jun 29, 2022)

Desmond said:


> Classic MLM, recruit people below you to earn from them. And those people have to also recruit people under them and so on. To read between the lines: The crypto is just an excuse to move money upwards. I bet the main income is not from the crypto but from recruiting people. These MLMs show the facade of being "direct sellers" with actual products but the products (crypto in this case) is just a medium to move money upwards.
> 
> 
> That's because they actually aren't. They have to show support so make the scheme look attractive to outsiders. Many of them buy expensive cars, flats on loan just to share on social media. Trust me, I know some people (relatives) who have done this.
> ...



right now main / only income is from someone's joining money and just a little from that autopool. there is one crypto pearlvine mynt but either these people don't know or don't want to acknowledge. they just keep repeating that this is an autonomous software just like google etc. which we use but don't pay any fee still they make a lot of money......... and the blah blah continues. when i said no, i couldn't get this, two of them said you are missing a platinum diamond opportunity.


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## Desmond (Jun 29, 2022)

vidhubhushan said:


> platinum diamond


Another characteristic of these MLMs is that they have these ranking ladders. Depending on certain criteria (varies depending on the MLM, could be money spent or points gained by doing something, etc.) they will rate the members. Commonly, they have rankings named after gems like diamond, double black diamond, etc.


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## Zangetsu (Jul 27, 2022)




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## Desmond (Aug 2, 2022)

Zangetsu said:


>


Good explanation in short.


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## RumbaMon19 (Aug 2, 2022)

Is tupperware also mlm?


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## Desmond (Aug 2, 2022)

Tupperware is actually weird in that it's more closer to direct selling than MLM since they mostly depend on selling the actual product to customers than recruiting new members.

However, these days the line between direct selling and MLM seems to be blurred a lot. Many MLMs call themselves direct sellers to appear legitimate.


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## Desmond (Aug 3, 2022)

Man pitches pyramid scheme to investors on TV






Saw this on /r/cringe


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## Nerevarine (Aug 3, 2022)

Ok I couldnt watch after he said



> ok will you please let me finish my pitch.



Kudos to you Desmond for visiting that sub.


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## Zangetsu (Aug 4, 2022)

Desmond said:


> Good explanation in short.


now watch this


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## TheSloth (Aug 4, 2022)

Desmond said:


> Man pitches pyramid scheme to investors on TV
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I could not control my laughter after he said he got this scheme from his ex wife.  The confidence these guys show is scary.


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