# Volatge Stabilizer vs Surge Protector vs UPS. What to buy?



## kARTechnology (Apr 14, 2013)

I have a sony BX300 30" LCD TV and Pioneer VSX-916 AV Receiver and a custom made Powered Subwoofer(just a duplicate design of Pioneer Sub), Airtel HD, will soon get HTPC
Now what should I buy?
a Volatge Stabilizer or Surge Protector or UPS

I have some slight up's and down's in voltages rarely, as i hear my ups click and AC's stabilizer click sound sometines
last year there was 440v in my house as\ something happened over the pole shorting the neutral and live wires, all houses in the street electrical appliances fried...
and fried TV(CRT type), AC's and *ALL had stabilizers* 
TV mobo died, 2 AC's mobo fried (stabilizer did nothing, still working as it is!), only Fridge's stabilizer died (stopped working, no lights at front) but started working when the service man plugged it in!!!)...

So I am not using the AV receiver everyday, because I am afraid that it will be fried( Don't know where they will repair though i have the service manual )

Now what should I Buy?
Tried using a vguard 600va ups for the AV receiver, but it made the lcd display on the front to flicker when running on battery mode! so not using it now...


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## harshilsharma63 (Apr 14, 2013)

UPS = voltage stabilizer + surge protector + battery backup. Get an APC 1.1 kVA UPS.


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## kARTechnology (Apr 14, 2013)

harshilsharma63 said:


> UPS = voltage stabilizer + surge protector + battery backup. Get an APC 1.1 kVA UPS.



tried it. what i get is buzzing noises from speaker and the av receiver lcd flickering because of modified square wave output!


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## harshilsharma63 (Apr 14, 2013)

kARTechnology said:


> tried it. what i get is buzzing noises from speaker and the av receiver lcd flickering because of *modified square wave output!*


Who/what gives square wave output? And don't use UPS with an inverter.


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## rock2702 (Apr 14, 2013)

harshilsharma63 said:


> Who/what gives square wave output? And don't use UPS with an inverter.



You mean to say that don't charge the ups with the inverter? Any reasons as why not to?


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## kARTechnology (Apr 14, 2013)

harshilsharma63 said:


> Who/what gives square wave output? And don't use UPS with an inverter.



nope
utility power -->> ups-->>equipment
when ups runs on battery mode it happens like that


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## westom (Apr 14, 2013)

kARTechnology said:


> nope
> utility power -->> ups-->>equipment
> when ups runs on battery mode it happens like that


A square wave output is also called a pure sine wave output.  Many only understand from the expression.  Do not understand that a square wave is nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves.  Many assume rather than learn actual facts about a UPS output.

  Some of the 'dirtiest' power in a house comes from a UPS in battery backup mode.  And that should be irrelevant due to superior filtering that must be inside all electronics.

  What anomaly is a problem?  For example, normal power for all electronics is even when an incandescent bulb dims to 50% intensity. Due to superior regulation and filtering circuits found in all electronics.  How often does your voltage vary that much?

  Of course voltage variation does not damage electronics.  Either voltage (even with bulbs at 50% intensity) is ideal voltage to electronics.  Or electronics simply powers off.  That same voltage variation is a threat to motorized appliances.

 UPS is for temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout.  A UPS provides time to save unsaved data.

  Surges are best solved by the only solution found in every facility that cannot have damage.  Not adjacent to an appliance.  Always found where a surge might enter a building - service entrance.  And within feet of the only item that makes surges irrelevant - earth ground.  Best protector is within feet of earth ground.  Protection increases with increased separation between protector and electronics.

  If AV equipment needs protection, then so does a dishwasher, furnace, dimmer switches, and all clocks. What most needs protection is a surge exists?  Smoke detectors.  One properly earthed protector is the best solution. Is a least expensive solution.  And protects everything.

  Three completely different anomalies. Plenty more exist.  Nothing addresses all anomalies.  Each anomaly has a unique solution.  UPS addresses one anomaly - a blackout.  Its sine wave output is also called (in sales brochures) a 'pure sine wave'.  A myth easy to promote when many only know from assumptions.



kARTechnology said:


> nope
> utility power -->> ups-->>equipment
> when ups runs on battery mode it happens like that


A square wave output is also called a pure sine wave output.  Many only understand from the expression.  Do not understand that a square wave is nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves.  Many assume rather than learn actual facts about a UPS output.

  Some of the 'dirtiest' power in a house comes from a UPS in battery backup mode.  And that should be irrelevant due to superior filtering that must be inside all electronics.

  What anomaly is a problem?  For example, normal power for all electronics is even when an incandescent bulb dims to 50% intensity. Due to superior regulation and filtering circuits found in all electronics.  How often does your voltage vary that much?

  Of course voltage variation does not damage electronics.  Either voltage (even with bulbs at 50% intensity) is ideal voltage to electronics.  Or electronics simply powers off.  That same voltage variation is a threat to motorized appliances.

 UPS is for temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout.  A UPS provides time to save unsaved data.

  Surges are best solved by the only solution found in every facility that cannot have damage.  Not adjacent to an appliance.  Always found where a surge might enter a building - service entrance.  And within feet of the only item that makes surges irrelevant - earth ground.  Best protector is within feet of earth ground.  Protection increases with increased separation between protector and electronics.

  If AV equipment needs protection, then so does a dishwasher, furnace, dimmer switches, and all clocks. What most needs protection is a surge exists?  Smoke detectors.  One properly earthed protector is the best solution. Is a least expensive solution.  And protects everything.

  Three completely different anomalies. Plenty more exist.  Nothing addresses all anomalies.  Each anomaly has a unique solution.  UPS addresses one anomaly - a blackout.  Its sine wave output is also called (in sales brochures) a 'pure sine wave'.  A myth easy to promote when many only know from assumptions.


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## kARTechnology (Apr 15, 2013)

@westom





> What anomaly is a problem?  For example, normal power for all electronics is even when an incandescent bulb dims to 50% intensity. Due to superior regulation and filtering circuits found in all electronics.  How often does your voltage vary that much?



Not that much but when switching on Ac, when neighbor's windows AC's compressor kicks in i hear a tick sound from ups, and stabilizer of AC


> Of course voltage variation does not damage electronics.  Either voltage (even with bulbs at 50% intensity) is ideal voltage to electronics.  Or electronics simply powers off.  That same voltage variation is a threat to motorized appliances.
> 
> Surges are best solved by the only solution found in every facility that cannot have damage.  Not adjacent to an appliance.  Always found where a surge might enter a building - *service entrance.  And within feet of the only item that makes surges irrelevant - earth ground.  Best protector is within feet of earth ground.  Protection increases with increased separation between protector and electronics*.



Well i have good ground, My electrican tested it wth a 100W bulb and said its good. But i don't get you


> If AV equipment needs protection, then so does a dishwasher, furnace, dimmer switches, and all clocks. What most needs protection is a surge exists?  Smoke detectors.  One properly earthed protector is the best solution. Is a least expensive solution.  And protects everything.



Yes we generally don't use stabilizers for washing machines and geysers...but could you explain *" properly earthed protector"*
AV receivers, TV's have a 2 pin plug not a 3 pin so there isn't grounding


> Three completely different anomalies. Plenty more exist.  Nothing addresses all anomalies.  Each anomaly has a unique solution.  UPS addresses one anomaly - a blackout.  Its sine wave output is also called (in sales brochures) a 'pure sine wave'.  A myth easy to promote when many only know from assumptions.


So are square wave inverters and Pure sine wave inverters same? then why wouldn't my Bravia TV work with my Luminous Square wave inverter(TV power led also didn't light up) whereas it worked with a Amaron Sine wave inverter?

Thank you for explaining me so much but why didn't all the excess current escape through the ground terminal ac when there was 440v? 2 AC's fuses AND mobo fried.


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## kARTechnology (Apr 25, 2013)

bump anyone reply!!!


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## harshilsharma63 (Apr 25, 2013)

kARTechnology said:


> bump anyone reply!!!


replies rae too long to read. Post your query/doubt in short.


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## baiju (Apr 25, 2013)

westom said:


> A square wave output is also called a pure sine wave output.  Many only understand from the expression.  Do not understand that a square wave is nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves.  Many assume rather than learn actual facts about a UPS output.



This is new news to me that a square wave is a pure sinewave.

Square wave output in UPS is not good for inductance based devices like FAN. AVRs can also have problems with square wave as they use transformer. Even 'quasi sinewave' is not good for AVR. Infact, Denon warns against using UPS to AVR. I overlooked this and I had to service my Denon avr twice - in both case problem with power supply.

OP can go for a servo stabilizer or an online sinewave ups. Never use ordinary offline ups for AVR.


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## kARTechnology (Apr 25, 2013)

baiju said:


> This is new news to me that a square wave is a pure sinewave.
> 
> Square wave output in UPS is not good for inductance based devices like FAN. AVRs can also have problems with square wave as they use transformer. Even 'quasi sinewave' is not good for AVR. Infact, Denon warns against using UPS to AVR. I overlooked this and I had to service my Denon avr twice - in both case problem with power supply.
> 
> OP can go for a servo stabilizer or an online sinewave ups. Never use ordinary offline ups for AVR.



i think he means a sinewave is a *sum *of square waves

im not even using my avr, and I'm not getting any replies 
boohooo


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## westom (May 13, 2013)

kARTechnology said:


> i think he means a sinewave is a *sum *of square waves


The statement was correct.  And taught even in high school mathematics.  A square wave is a sum of sine waves.  A square wave output can be called a pure sine wave output.  They did not lie.  Because square waves are a sum of pure sine waves.

  A UPS is made as cheaply as possible.  It will 'click' to batteries when voltage drops too low.  And often will 'click' to batteries when other anomalies such as noise make it only think voltage is too low.  The compressor creates noise.  If voltage was reallly too low, then incandescent bulbs were also significantly dimming.


  Safety ground (that the electrician tested) with something completely different from earth ground.  The previous post was quite specific about that.   And also provided a critical number: 





> And within feet of the only item that makes surges irrelevant - earth ground.


.  How far from the earth ground electrode was the electrician's light bulb?  "within feet" means less than 10 feet to be a "properly earthed protector".  Safety ground prong on receptacles is clearly not earth ground.  And also too far away (too many feet).

  Irrelevant is a 'safety ground' connected to a TV.  Earthing a surge - not the appliance - is only relevant.  Again, 





> Not adjacent to an appliance. Always found where a surge might enter a building - service entrance.


  Earth ground the surge at the service entrance. Ignore all comments about appliance safety grounds.  Safety ground is only for human protection.  Completely different from earth ground for transistor (appliance) protection.


  Did you have a 'whole house' surge protector in the breaker box or electric meter pan connected as short a possible (ie within feet) of earth ground?  If not, then 440 hunted for best appliances to connect destructively to earth.  Those were the appliances that had both destructive incoming (from AC mains) and outgoing (to earth ground - not safety ground) paths.

  Neither the recommended UPS nor power strip protectors even claim to protect from such anomalies.  In fact, that UPS protection is typically near zero.  Just enough above zero so that advertising can claim it was 100% surge protection.  Subjective claims can deceive that easily.   Can also describe a square wave as a pure sine wave.


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## kARTechnology (May 13, 2013)

westom said:


> Did you have a 'whole house' surge protector in the breaker box or electric meter pan connected as short a possible (ie within feet) of earth ground?  If not, then 440 hunted for best appliances to connect destructively to earth.  Those were the appliances that had both destructive incoming (from AC mains) and outgoing (to earth ground - not safety ground) paths.
> 
> Neither the recommended UPS nor power strip protectors even claim to protect from such anomalies.  In fact, that UPS protection is typically near zero.  Just enough above zero so that advertising can claim it was 100% surge protection.  Subjective claims can deceive that easily.   Can also describe a square wave as a pure sine wave.



i don't get you
what all i know is the "earth" pin in a thee pin plug which goes to a copper rod deep inside the ground(mud or sand into the earth's crust)
i understood that this is for human protection

recently i read about rcd (like a mcb). if that is there,  is the above thing i said is not required? 

so belkin surge protectors  and upses having surge protection are fake? 
my apc ups for computer says  'lightning protection guranteed"
something metal oxide thingy absorbs thousands of surges-is this true

should i have a voltage stabilizer? i don't get low voltages like bulb dimming, etc

so what should i ask my electrician?


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## kARTechnology (May 19, 2013)

bump - westom pls replyyy


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## westom (May 19, 2013)

kARTechnology said:


> so belkin surge protectors  and upses having surge protection are fake?
> my apc ups for computer says  'lightning protection guranteed"
> something metal oxide thingy absorbs thousands of surges-is this true



  Numerous and different anomalies discussed as if something addresses all.  Each is unique.  Requires different solutions.  For example RCD is about human safety.   And is irrelevant to safety ground or earth ground.

  Your building contains many grounds: chassis ground, digital ground, earth ground, safety ground, floating ground, analog ground, motherboard ground, etc.  Many grounds are interconnected.  And remain electrically different.  Safety ground and earth ground are different for many reasons.

  Voltage variations are irrelevant to surge protectors, any ground, RCDs, or most other anomaly solutions.  Voltage variations are made irrelevant by what is already inside electronics.  You have no voltage variations (no light bulb dimming).  So a solution to one of the many anomalies (voltage variation) is unnecessary.

  Belkin only claims to protect from one type of surge that typically does no damage.  It is not fake.  It does exactly what its spec numbers claim it will do.  You did not ask about protection from that anomaly.

  View spec numbers for MOVs.   In a UPS, it may absorb hundreds of joules.  Meanwhile destructive surges typically are hundreds of thousands of joules. So what is its protector device (MOV) doing?

  An electrician can earth a device so that typically destructive surges are harmlessly earthed - do not enter the building.  That 'whole house' protector is effective when connected low impedance (ie 'less than 3 meters') to single point earth ground.  All four words have significant meaning (some electricians may not understand the relevance of each word).  A properly earthed 'whole house' protector means protection already inside all appliances is not overwhelmed by a rare and potentially destructive transient.  That 'whole house' protector would also protect near zero joules inside a Belkin or APC.

  If it says 'lightning protection guaranteed', then it defines that protection with numbers.  For example, it might only protect from a lightning strike across town - if numbers are missing.

  A 'whole house' protector is about connecting even a direct lightning strike harmlessly outside to earth.  Protector should state how many amps.  Since a direct strike can be 20,000 amps, then a minimal 'whole house' protector would be at least 50,000 amps.  That protector for everything may costs less than an APC UPS.

  That is about one anomaly.  RCD, safety grounds, a Belkin, and voltage stabilizer do nothing for that one anomaly.  Even the ‘whole house’ protector is ineffective if 'single point earth ground' is not properly installed with a low impedance connection.

  Which of the many anomalies (previously mentioned) concern you?  Each anomaly typically has a different solution.  Protection for the typically destructive surge is about the earth ground.  And how that surge connects to earth  - either via a wire or via a ‘whole house’ protector.


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## kARTechnology (May 19, 2013)

westom said:


> Numerous and different anomalies discussed as if something addresses all.  Each is unique.  Requires different solutions.  For example RCD is about human safety.   And is irrelevant to safety ground or earth ground.
> 
> Your building contains many grounds: chassis ground, digital ground, earth ground, safety ground, floating ground, analog ground, motherboard ground, etc.  Many grounds are interconnected.  And remain electrically different.  Safety ground and earth ground are different for many reasons.
> 
> ...



Over high voltage ( like 440v as trees fall on wires, my whole street's tv's, fridge's, ac's etc were fried. My ac did have a voltage stabilizer called " powerline" - but mobo died but stabilizer has got no damage AT ALL 
I was not at home that time and even the main board where meters,fuses, mcb's are kept there the indicator lights ( small ones) had blasted scattering bulb pieces 


Low voltage rarely (recently started because of summer, tube lights dim slightly, ac stabilizer makes loud buzzing nose until I switch the ac off ( using remote)

Lightning protection? I didn't experience this still. I have a Airtel dish

Now when I switch ac on, tv stabilizer makes a tick sound(ac stabilizer does this too at same time)


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## westom (May 19, 2013)

kARTechnology said:


> Over high voltage ( like 440v as trees fall on wires, my whole street's tv's, fridge's, ac's etc were fried.


 If surge protection is a concern, then do not confuse this issue with low voltage.  Or a voltage stabilizer that 'clicks' or buzzes even due to noise.

  Normal is for a surge current (lightning or a 440 volt fault) to blow through many items.  And only damage one.  That is how surges typically work.  A voltage stabilizer conducted a surge that only damaged a motherboard.  That surge was incoming and outgoing via the stabilizer.  But damage was elsewhere in that path - a motherboard.  Because that surge was not connected to 'single point earth ground' BEFORE entering the building.

  You describe a surge (a 440 fault, lightning, squirrel shorting wires, grid switching, etc).  And then had damage because installed was nothing that even claims to provide that protection.  Voltage stabilizer only does what is already inside every computer.

   Why is a stabilizer making noise when voltage is perfectly ideal for appliances?  Cheap stabilizers will react to many irrelevant events, sometimes, so that many will recommend it.  Clicking can increase profits.  Meanwhile, it apparently connected a surge to earth destructively via a motherboard.  And (based upon what you did and did not post), it made that destructive connection by bypassing (compromising) protection inside a computer's power supply.  

  Summarized above (details not provided) was a solution for surges.  If that anomaly concerns you, then limit your post to that anomaly. Voltage stabilizer completely irrelevant.  If 'destructive' low voltage is a concern, then do not discuss lightning and 440 volt faults.  Each anomaly is completely different.

  No one solution exists for all or even most anomalies.   Different solutions often must be located is completely different locations.  Anything that operates on an appliance's power cord is often already solved inside that appliance.

  That other anomaly: when a TV is switched on, do incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity?  If not, ticking is only reporting a confused or cheap voltage stabilizer.  And says nothing about a surge current.


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## kARTechnology (May 19, 2013)

westom said:


> If surge protection is a concern, then do not confuse this issue with low voltage.  Or a voltage stabilizer that 'clicks' or buzzes even due to noise.
> 
> Normal is for a surge current (lightning or a 440 volt fault) to blow through many items.  And only damage one.  That is how surges typically work.  A voltage stabilizer conducted a surge that only damaged a motherboard.  That surge was incoming and outgoing via the stabilizer.  But damage was elsewhere in that path - a motherboard.  Because that surge was not connected to 'single point earth ground' BEFORE entering the building.



true - the fuse in mobo blowed and relays, ic's went kaput in ac
pls tell how should i install "single point earth ground' BEFORE entering the building."


> You describe a surge (a 440 fault, lightning, squirrel shorting wires, grid switching, etc).  And then had damage because installed was nothing that even claims to provide that protection.  Voltage stabilizer only does what is already inside every computer.
> 
> Why is a stabilizer making noise when voltage is perfectly ideal for appliances?  Cheap stabilizers will react to many irrelevant events, sometimes, so that many will recommend it.  Clicking can increase profits.  Meanwhile, it apparently connected a surge to earth destructively via a motherboard.  And (based upon what you did and did not post), it made that destructive connection by bypassing (compromising) protection inside a computer's power supply.



should i change ac stabilizer? any recommendations?
recently, 5 stabilizers(for 5 ac's) burned down/smoked in my shop. 1st 2 were gone next the three...


> Summarized above (details not provided) was a solution for surges.  If that anomaly concerns you, then limit your post to that anomaly. Voltage stabilizer completely irrelevant.  If 'destructive' low voltage is a concern, then do not discuss lightning and 440 volt faults.  Each anomaly is completely different.



this is the solution, right?  'single point earth ground' BEFORE entering the building.



> That other anomaly: when a TV is switched on, do incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity?  If not, ticking is only reporting a confused or cheap voltage stabilizer.  And says nothing about a surge current


i have only tubelights.... and it is a 3 phase connection
and not the tv but the ac...if i switch geyser on, the tube lights dim slightly noticible


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## westom (May 19, 2013)

kARTechnology said:


> this is the solution, right?  'single point earth ground' BEFORE entering the building.


Best is to start with basics.  A surge (ie lightning) seeks earth ground.  A best connection from cloud to earth was a wooden church steeple.  But wood is not a superior conductor.  A surge current (ie 20,000 amps) creates a high voltage in wood.   20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy.  Church steeple damaged.

  Franklin connected the surge to earth.  A best connection was a lightning rod and wire to earth ground.  A surge current creates a near zero voltage on that connection.  20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy.  No damage.

  Lightning (or 440 volts) far down the street seeks earth ground.  A best connection to earth is via your appliances.  Appliances are not a good conductor.  So a surge current may create a high voltage in that appliance.  Current times a high voltage is high energy.  Appliance damaged.

  Connect each incoming wire to single point earth ground.  A best connection is an earth ground located where all wires enter the building.  Any utility wire connected directly to this ground has best protection; near zero voltage created.  Other utility wires that cannot connect directly must make this same connection via a 'whole house' protector.  That surge current times near zero voltage (due to a short connection to earth) means near zero energy inside the building.  No appliance damage.

  Essential is how any incoming utility wire connects to earth.  Best is a hardwired connection (ie cable).   Other incoming wires (AC electric, telephone) must make the same connection via a protector.  All incoming wires must connect as short as possible to the same (single point) earth ground. 

  A utility demonstrates examples of single point ground (preferred and right) and an example of defective earthing (wrong):
Tech Tip 08 -Duke Energy

  If the surge current (ie 440 volt fault) is earthed BEFORE entering the building, then it does not hunt for earth destructively via the motherboard.  Or dishwasher, RCDs, clocks, TV, or voltage stabilizer.  Described is how to avert that one anomaly.  A current that hunts for earth ground destructively via appliances.  Also described is how to avert another anomaly.  A current that hunts for earth ground destructively via the building.  Both anomalies are averted by the quality of and shortest distance to earth.


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## kARTechnology (May 20, 2013)

westom said:


> Best is to start with basics.  A surge (ie lightning) seeks earth ground.  A best connection from cloud to earth was a wooden church steeple.  But wood is not a superior conductor.  A surge current (ie 20,000 amps) creates a high voltage in wood.   20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy.  Church steeple damaged.
> 
> Franklin connected the surge to earth.  A best connection was a lightning rod and wire to earth ground.  A surge current creates a near zero voltage on that connection.  20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy.  No damage.
> 
> ...




okay for a appliance there is a phase(live,hot) and a neutral, and a ground (the big pin in a 3 pin plug)
so the big pin in a 3 pin plug goes to the soil woth copper plate and coal/something to prevent electric shock

now i should dug deep and put another copper plate and do all those stuff and where should i connect that wire to? the phase? (sry the above thing is very difficult to undestand)
if i connect it to phase wont i get a huge current bill as all the power gets drained to the earth itself?


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## westom (May 20, 2013)

kARTechnology said:


> okay for a appliance there is a phase(live,hot) and a neutral, and a ground (the big pin in a 3 pin plug)
> so the big pin in a 3 pin plug goes to the soil woth copper plate and coal/something to prevent electric shock


First appreciate a point repeatedly made.  Safety ground, neutral, and earth ground should all connect together.  And all three wires are electrically different.  You have assume electricity is same at both ends of a wire - a popular myth.   How much different?  Numbers too complex for this discussion say how much.   But understand that that neither neutral wire (ie on a receptacle) nor safety ground (also on that receptacle) are electrically same as earth ground.  Despite much hearsay that says otherwise.

  Critically important was another number.  A connection to earth ground must be low impedance (ie 'less than 3 meters').  That number ('less than 3 meters') also says a receptacle safety ground is not an earth ground.

  Second, earth ground electrode at your service entrance performs a critically important _human safety_ function.  A function defined by safety codes.  Surge protection means using same earthing electrode to also do _transistor safety_.  Single point earth ground would be the existing rod or plate electrode installed for _human safety_.  And may even need be upgraded also do _transistor safety_.  Upgraded?  One reason is that all connections must be so short - low impedance - ie 'less than 3 meters'.

  Another previously posted sentence says what an earth ground connection and protector do.  Any wire inside a utility cable that can connect direct to earth makes a low impedance connection with a bare copper or insulated green wire.  Cable TV and satellite dish are  examples.  Wires that cannot connect directly to earth (ie phase) must make that same 'short as possible' connection via a 'whole house' protector.  Previously described:





> Any utility wire connected directly to this ground has best protection; near zero voltage created. Other utility wires that cannot connect directly must make this same connection via a 'whole house' protector.



  What does a protector do?  Makes a connection to earth that would otherwise be made better by a wire.  So that normal power does not conduct to earth.  And so that destructive transients connect directly to earth.  The wire connection or protector connection doing same as Franklin demonstrated in 1752.

  Third, many have difficulty unlearning popular urban myths.  Why would a phase wire, connected to earth via a protector, create a huge current bill as power gets drained to earth?  It doesn't.  Because the effective type protector performs contrary to what hearsay and advertising have taught.  Only a transient current flows to earth via the protector.   An example of unlearning what hearsay said a protector does.

  Therefore, best protection means a surge connects to earth via a wire. So that the transient does not go hunting inside.  A protector makes a direct connection to earth when a wire (ie phase) cannot connect directly.  Earth ground, neutral wire, safety ground, computer motherboard ground, and computer chassis ground are all interconnected.  And all are electrically different.  Many unfortunately assume wires are electrically same at both ends; another myth that must be unlearned.

  And finally, a protector must be sized to even connect direct lightning strikes to earth; without damage.  A minimal 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps.  Any protector that fails during a surge provided no transistor protection; only disconnected as fast as possible to avert a house fire (human protection).  An important number for selecting a protector: at least 50,000 amps so that a protector does not fail.  And a 'less than 3 meter' connection to earth.


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## kARTechnology (May 20, 2013)

westom said:


> First appreciate a point repeatedly made.  Safety ground, neutral, and earth ground should all connect together.  And all three wires are electrically different.  You have assume electricity is same at both ends of a wire - a popular myth.   How much different?  Numbers too complex for this discussion say how much.   But understand that that neither neutral wire (ie on a receptacle) nor safety ground (also on that receptacle) are electrically same as earth ground.  Despite much hearsay that says otherwise.
> 
> Critically important was another number.  A connection to earth ground must be low impedance (ie 'less than 3 meters').  That number ('less than 3 meters') also says a receptacle safety ground is not an earth ground.
> 
> ...



Thank you sir for the reply!!!
Now I understood that if whole house surge protection is installed, the surge instead of hunting for the ground in the appliances directly goes to the ground via a wire

So if it should be within 3 meters,
It won't be effective as I am on 2 nd f f floor

Now if I connect the phase to the ground earth, the energy won't drain as long as it is in the limits( something like 270v) after that only it drains.. Is this correct?

I would like to see a diagram how it should be wired. I have a three phase connection.


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## westom (May 21, 2013)

kARTechnology said:


> It won't be effective as I am on 2 nd f f floor
> 
> Now if I connect the phase to the ground earth, the energy won't drain as long as it is in the limits( something like 270v) after that only it drains.. Is this correct?


  Objective is to make that connection to earth many times shorter than to anything else.  A protector connected to earth from the second floor would be less effective.

  This type protector remains open circuit just like a switch.  Current conducts when (for example) 230 VAC phase exceeds something like 500 volts.  Sometimes called its let-through voltage in manufacturer specs.  230 volt appliances must withstand over 600 volt transients without damage.  Internal protection in each appliance would not be overwhelmed.

  Manufacturer of a 'whole house' protector will define how to connect it.  Once installed, each phase has its own (part of that) protector that connects short to earth ground.  Good installation (beyond manufacturer directions) is to carefully route a wire to earth with no sharp bends, not inside metallic conduit, no splices, of course as short as possible, and separated as much as possible from other non-grounding wires.  Manufacturers include ABB, Keison, Siemens. and Aelgroup to name but a few.  As noted previously, that protector typically is rated at least 50,000 amps.


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## kARTechnology (May 21, 2013)

westom said:


> Objective is to make that connection to earth many times shorter than to anything else.  A protector connected to earth from the second floor would be less effective.
> 
> This type protector remains open circuit just like a switch.  Current conducts when (for example) 230 VAC phase exceeds something like 500 volts.  Sometimes called its let-through voltage in manufacturer specs.  230 volt appliances must withstand over 600 volt transients without damage.  Internal protection in each appliance would not be overwhelmed.
> 
> Manufacturer of a 'whole house' protector will define how to connect it.  Once installed, each phase has its own (part of that) protector that connects short to earth ground.  Good installation (beyond manufacturer directions) is to carefully route a wire to earth with no sharp bends, not inside metallic conduit, no splices, of course as short as possible, and separated as much as possible from other non-grounding wires.  Manufacturers include ABB, Keison, Siemens. and Aelgroup to name but a few.  As noted previously, that protector typically is rated at least 50,000 amps.



Thanks, I have enquired in my locality and they said they will only do the installation...
Could you please tell me the approximate cost

After installing this, can I run tv and av receiver without a stabilizer right? 
But this won't protect from low voltages right?

I discovered with My electrician that in my house the three phase connection,
Only the main bedroom ac was given to a phase.

 Heaters and other guest bedroom ac on one phase and
 tv, kitchen appliances,  inverter on one phase


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## westom (May 21, 2013)

kARTechnology said:


> After installing this, can I run tv and av receiver without a stabilizer right?
> But this won't protect from low voltages right?


  TV and AV receiver already have voltage stabilization internally.  So that incandescent bulbs can dim even to 50% intensity and not trouble those elecronics.  Low voltage is not harmful to electronics.

  A 'whole hosue' protector may cost as much as £80.  Expensive part is the electrician who must be paid for getting there as well as doing the work.

  All three phases power appliances that need protection.  One 'whole house' protector, properly earthed, will protect all three phases from a rare and typically destructive transient.


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## kARTechnology (May 25, 2013)

@westom what happens when lightning strikes an aeroplane? Saw this recently on tv

And you do not seem belonging to India... Or Am I wrong?
Cause you gave the price in euros


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## westom (May 25, 2013)

kARTechnology said:


> @westom what happens when lightning strikes an aeroplane? Saw this recently on tv


  A plane is still in an electrical current path.  One incoming and another outgoing path always exist.  In the UK, a glider was struck.  Current went from wingtip to wingtip.  Causing a failure where a  component could not safely conduct that current.  Causing wing failure.

  In the early days of the Boeing 707, one was struck over Maryland.  Due to a design mistake, current flow in a wrong spot caused an explosion in a fuel tank.

  Planes are routinely struck.  An incoming and outgoing path is always via better conductive materials that must never stop, block, or absorb that energy.   A typical example shows a connection to earth that causes no damage:
  NWS Pueblo, CO

  Best is to visit electrical supply houses. Get their prices.  Or simply search web sites of serious electrical supply companies (GE, Siemens, ABB, Eaton, Clipsal, etc) to learn what each offers for your venue and local safety codes.   Of course, direct most attention to what does the protection.  It is not a protector.  It is the quality of and connection to (the art of) a single point earth ground.  Far more important is where hundreds of thousands of joules must dissipate - harmlessly.


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## whitestar_999 (May 25, 2013)

@westom,isn't hundreds of thousands of joules destructive surges are beyond the capability of 440v.here we don't get typical lightning storms & most cases of over voltage occurs due to short circuiting of overhead street power lines which at max can introduce 440v.


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## westom (May 25, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> @westom,isn't hundreds of thousands of joules destructive surges are beyond the capability of 440v.


I don't understand the question.  Why are hundreds of thousands of joules beyond the capability of a system designed to deliver much higher energy levels?

  Lightning has been the example of a typical surge.  Other sources include linemen mistakes, stray cars, and grid faults.


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## kARTechnology (May 25, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> @westom,isn't hundreds of thousands of joules destructive surges are beyond the capability of 440v.here we don't get typical lightning storms & most cases of over voltage occurs due to short circuiting of overhead street power lines which at max can introduce 440v.



+1  street power lines fall regularly in village areas. thats what im saying. stabilizers dont protect from this high irrish current, westom says any surge conditions apply) can be diverted by installing whole house surge protection,

how to protect dish and local cable broadband, telephones??????
I use a FTTc connection so if the suge or lightning hits the FTTC box then wont all computers/routers be destroyed? i recently ad a look at those FTTC boxes and they hd only L and N, no G, no professional circuit (lan switch adapters and a battery (7.2Ah) charging circuit)


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## whitestar_999 (May 25, 2013)

westom said:


> I don't understand the question.  Why are hundreds of thousands of joules beyond the capability of a system designed to deliver much higher energy levels?
> 
> Lightning has been the example of a typical surge.  Other sources include linemen mistakes, stray cars, and grid faults.


without going into the details i can assure you that in India grid faults,stray cars & linemen mistakes can never result in such a situation.almost all such situations in India occur because of overload on transformers or touching of overhead street lines because of wind/tree collapse.in all these situations max voltage possible is 440v since that is the limiting voltage at which step-down transformers work in India in residential areas.i don't see how hundreds of thousands of joules can be delivered by a system in which max potential difference between any two points can not be more than 440v.of course installation of a whole house protection system is the ideal solution but i am just wondering if simply using a decent surge protector with,say ~2500 joule rating,would have prevented the damage by a 440v voltage surge.


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## kARTechnology (May 25, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> without going into the details i can assure you that in India grid faults,stray cars & linemen mistakes can never result in such a situation.almost all such situations in India occur because of overload on transformers or touching of overhead street lines because of wind/tree collapse.in all these situations max voltage possible is 440v since that is the limiting voltage at which step-down transformers work in India in residential areas.i don't see how hundreds of thousands of joules can be delivered by a system in which max potential difference between any two points can not be more than 440v.of course installation of a whole house protection system is the ideal solution but i am just wondering if simply using a decent surge protector with,say ~2500 joule rating,would have prevented the damage by a 440v voltage surge.



See the above posts to know what happened. How can I put surge protecter to ac?? Like a 4KVA surge protector?

Really? If you say surge protectors, say belkin gives you assurance that it will cover damages but see how many cases on net stating that it didn't have give them the money or product replacement... That's what my fear is in India I doubt where is is HQ and how I will Send to it on damage!!


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## gagan_kumar (May 25, 2013)

westom said:


> Best is to start with basics.  A surge (ie lightning) seeks earth ground.  A best connection from cloud to earth was a wooden church steeple.  But wood is not a superior conductor.  A surge current (ie 20,000 amps) creates a high voltage in wood.   20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy.  Church steeple damaged.
> 
> Franklin connected the surge to earth.  A best connection was a lightning rod and wire to earth ground.  A surge current creates a near zero voltage on that connection.  20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy.  No damage.
> 
> ...



did any one understood this?


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## whitestar_999 (May 25, 2013)

i was thinking about your question in the 1st post(for tv/pc/AVR/woofer etc not AC).usually surge protectors are not needed for heavy electrical appliances like 4KVA ACs & maybe it was the fault of your voltage stabilizer not doing its job properly(like in case of your fridge).i never took into account belkin's claim of compensation for loss but just the fact that a ~2000 joule rating surge protector might be able to save your tv/pc.as per principles surge introduces a large amount of energy in the system & this amount is directly proportional to the amount of current introduced(lightning which is huge) or in your case touching between 2 phases one of which is at 220v(max for indian homes).this type of potential difference should not be able to produce the kind of energy seen in lightening strikes(where thousands of ampere of current is introduced into the system) hence my thought that a surge protector might have saved your tv/pc.


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## kARTechnology (May 25, 2013)

gta0gagan said:


> did any one understood this?



Not fully but little


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## kARTechnology (May 25, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> i was thinking about your question in the 1st post(for tv/pc/AVR/woofer etc not AC).usually surge protectors are not needed for heavy electrical appliances like 4KVA ACs & maybe it was the fault of your voltage stabilizer not doing its job properly(like in case of your fridge).i never took into account belkin's claim of compensation for loss but just the fact that a ~2000 joule rating surge protector might be able to save your tv/pc.as per principles surge introduces a large amount of energy in the system & this amount is directly proportional to the amount of current introduced(lightning which is huge) or in your case touching between 2 phases one of which is at 220v(max for indian homes).this type of potential difference should not be able to produce the kind of energy seen in lightening strikes(where thousands of ampere of current is introduced into the system) hence my thought that a surge protector might have saved your tv/pc.



You mean 2 ton ac needs no stabilizer? 2 of my acs mobo was fried. and so was the neighbors in the street. Even street lights bursted giving huge amount of light/spark. My tv( now completely irreparable)
Yes 220v is maximum but when 2 phases touch? 460v
Normally now I measure with volt meter I get 240-260v 
I saw in my electrical distribution website of AP. They have put in faq that they will install some devices on request to arrest surges.

In villages voltage will be so low that even inverters can't run. That's why luminous brought the Sakthi charge inverter( can work in very low voltages and high voltages)


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## harshilsharma63 (May 25, 2013)

gta0gagan said:


> did any one understood this?


Yes, I did.


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## whitestar_999 (May 25, 2013)

you don't add voltages like 220+220 in normal home setup.current flows because of potential difference so if point A(220v) is connected to point B(220v) no current will flow.in your case short circuit happened because point A(220v) touched point B(-220v) creating a short circuit with a potential difference of 440v(220-{-220}) & passing through your home introducing a large amount of current.my point was that if a voltage stabilizer can protect fridge which draws much less power than AC then by same logic a voltage stabilizer should be able to protect AC because during surges the appliance with lesser power requirement will be at greater risk.


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## westom (May 25, 2013)

To answer some questions.
Even 4KVA appliances have electronics.  Everything, even dimmer switches and RCDs, need that protection.  What most needs that protection during a surge?  Smoke detectors.

  In early days, clocks with electric motors were surge damaged.  Manufacturers increased protection inside electric clocks to exceed 4000 volts.  That was before homes installed a 'whole house' protector.

  Best protection for the incoming cable TV and satellite dish is only a wire that is low impedance ('less than 3 meters') to an earthing electrode.  Telephone wires cannot connect directly.  So those wires are earthed, instead, via a protector.

  Many who have learned about protectors only from advertising are most easily confused.  Because they must unlearn what advertising has taught.  Advertising would have you believe a protector does protection.  It does not.  A protector only does a connection to ground when a bare wire cannot make that same connection.

 Best component inside an AC protector is the MOV.  But this component has excessive capacitance for telephones.  So a similar 'whole house' protector for telephones (or DSL) features a different technology (and lower voltage).  In 1900, gas discharge tubes were used.  Today, that telco protector will often be a semiconductor device.

  A telephone protector and earth ground wire for cable do same protection as a 'whole house' protector on AC mains.  If any wire inside any incoming cable does not make that connection to earth, then all household protection is compromised.  If any of those connections connects to a different earth ground, then again, protection is compromised (as demonstrated by a utility application note).

  In every case, protection is not about the protect*or*.  Protect*ion* is always about what should result in the most questions: single point earth ground.   Line faults (ie high voltage falling on lower voltage wires to a house) are also made irrelevant by a connection to and quality of the earth ground.  

  Listed previously was a minimum number for the 'whole house' protector: 50,000 amps.  That means a direct lightning strike or other surge (ie line short or fault) should not even damage the protector.  If your protector is damaged, then a new one should have a higher current number (ie 100,000 amps or 200,000 amps).  Protectors are only effective when they do not fail; when properly sized.

  A 2000 joule surge is quite small. Surges that might not even damage TVs and PCs (due to superior internal proetction) can destroy a grossly undersized protector.  Then a naive consumer assumed "its sacrifice" provided protection.   It did not.  A surge too tiny to damage a TV or PC also destroys a grossly undersized protector.

 When discussing destructive surges, energy numbers can be hundreds of thousands of joules.  What determines whether energy dissipates harmlessly?  Single point earth ground.  Quality of the earth ground determines protection during one surge.  Size of a protector (in thousands of amps) determines 'system' life expectancy over many surges.

  And so the #1 point.  Most assume a protector does protection. What is taught by advertising must be unlearned.  Protectors do not do protection.  Earth ground is where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed.  Protectors are simple science.  Art of protection is the earthing system.


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