# Is dedicated nvidia GPU for PhysX is needed when using R9 270X as main GPU???



## bssunilreddy (Jan 4, 2014)

Hai,

I want to know whether a dedicated nvidia GPU for PhysX is needed when using R9 270X GPU as games like Borderlands 2, Metro: Last Light, Batman: Arkham Origins, Witcher 3 and Assasins Creed 4: Black Flag are using PhysX.So I thought that Zotac GT 630 2GB Synergy Edition for 4k is sufficient. I really don't know how to enable or use nvidia GPU while using AMD GPU as the main GPU. Are there any MODS or special drivers to enable PhysX which run in tandem with AMD GPU.I simply install PhysX software for certain games to run as they need it. Do we have to install the nvidia drivers along with AMD drivers or just PhysX drivers are sufficient? Please suggest me in this regard as well as clarify the above doubts.


Thanks & Regards,
bavusani


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## harshilsharma63 (Jan 4, 2014)

PhysX works with any processor; be it Intel, Nvidia or AMD, and is optimized for Nvidia GPUs. The PhysX performance difference between an Nvidia processor and a non-Nvidia processor is drastic. AFAIK, you won't get any game changing effects with PhysX enabled (correct me if I'm wrong).


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## ASHISH65 (Jan 4, 2014)

harshilsharma63 said:


> PhysX works with any processor; be it Intel,*Nvidia* or AMD, and is optimized for Nvidia GPUs. The PhysX performance difference between an Nvidia processor and a non-Nvidia processor is drastic. AFAIK, you won't get any game changing effects with PhysX enabled (correct me if I'm wrong).



Nvidia also manufacture processor ??  you mean gpu processor 

PhysX adds extra visual effects in games


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## harshilsharma63 (Jan 4, 2014)

ASHISH65 said:


> Nvidia also manufacture processor ??  you mean gpu processor
> 
> PhysX adds extra visual effects in games



A GPU is also a processor.


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## ASHISH65 (Jan 4, 2014)

harshilsharma63 said:


> A GPU is also a processor.



yes but for noobs it is not


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## snap (Jan 4, 2014)

i think he is asking how to use nvidia graphics card for physx along side Amd 270x. For physx, nvidia cards are necessary right?


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## harshilsharma63 (Jan 4, 2014)

*physxinfo.com/wiki/Hybrid_PhysX


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## snap (Jan 4, 2014)

damn it is understandable if hybrid PhysX is not supported but locking PhysX processing capabilities when amd card is detected!. I hope the OP got his answer


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## saswat23 (Jan 4, 2014)

Ask forum member 'Cilus', he has used separate PhysX card and will help you out with your queires.


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## flyingcow (Jan 4, 2014)

Imo not worth it to spend 4k on a gpu for physX also your psu should be able to handle that...better buy some more games


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## bssunilreddy (Jan 5, 2014)

I have noticed in Borderlands 2 that while using my AMD GPU also I noticed the same PhysX type rendering but I have never seen the difference between nvidia & AMD GPU rendering of PhysX.


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## harshilsharma63 (Jan 5, 2014)

bavusani said:


> I have noticed in Borderlands 2 that while using my AMD GPU also I noticed the same PhysX type rendering but I have never seen the difference between nvidia & AMD GPU rendering of PhysX.



The only difference in PhysX being processes by an Nvidia processor and an AMD/intel processor is the speed. Nvidia processors are optimized for it and process it fast whereas others are not.


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## bssunilreddy (Jan 5, 2014)

harshilsharma63 said:


> The only difference in PhysX being processes by an Nvidia processor and an AMD/intel processor is the speed. Nvidia processors are optimized for it and process it fast whereas others are not.



So AMD also renders PhysX but nvidia are optimised for speed  where as AMD is not. This is the difference right. So I do not have to add a dedicated GPU for PhysX as even AMD can render it right.Thanks buddy.


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## sam_738844 (Jan 6, 2014)

bavusani said:


> I have noticed in Borderlands 2 that while using my AMD GPU also I noticed the same PhysX type rendering but I have never seen the difference between nvidia & AMD GPU rendering of PhysX.



really? so you're implying that you could enable phyx option in BL2 using in AMD gpu?, because i know people , *a LOT of people* who could not.


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## anirbandd (Jan 6, 2014)

@OP: really?? and after all this you ask this question?? 

dude, Physx is a dead tech. it does nothing apart from some eye candy, that too, something we can do without. 



sam_738844 said:


> really? so you're implying that you could enable phyx option in BL2 using in AMD gpu?, because i know people , *a LOT of people* who could not.


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## ASHISH65 (Jan 6, 2014)

bavusani said:


> So AMD also renders PhysX but nvidia are optimised for speed  where as AMD is not. This is the difference right. So I do not have to add a dedicated GPU for PhysX as even AMD can render it right.Thanks buddy.



What ?? it is not possible


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## topgear (Jan 6, 2014)

while using an AMD card only all the physx processing [ if there's any needed by the game ] is done by the cpu alone or the game engine will just keep Physx disabled.


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## harshilsharma63 (Jan 6, 2014)

topgear said:


> while using an AMD card only all the physx processing [ if there's any needed by the game ] is done by the cpu alone or the game engine will just keep Physx disabled.



Thanks for mentioning this. I thought that AMD GPU's can also process PhysX but not as fast as Nvidia GPUs.


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## flyingcow (Jan 6, 2014)

so if i use a powerful amd proccy(intel or amd) +gpu(amd) i would get same physx tech as if i were using an nvidia gpu?


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## snap (Jan 6, 2014)

^^
dont think so


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## harshilsharma63 (Jan 6, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> so if i use a powerful *amd proccy(intel or amd)* +gpu(amd) i would get same physx tech as if i were using an nvidia gpu?



> Got a bit confused?

> From topgear's statement it implies that having a powerful non-nvidia GPU will not do any help in PhysX. You'll need a fast CPU for that. Whereas with an Nvidia GPU the CPU doesn't matter.


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## bssunilreddy (Jan 6, 2014)

Just get a low end $20-$30  GT430/GT440. This video shows a comparison and has some setup info  specific to borderlands:

 Borderlands 2 AMD Nvidia Hybrid PhysX - YouTube
 basically install the 285 driver, install the standalone physx, run  the extra hybridize tool. Rename/delete the physxcore.dll and  physxdevice.dll files in the borderlands bin folder. You can use gpu-z  to confirm physx is enabled on the ATI card and make sure it's put load  on GPU2 during gameplay.

Obviously there is still a lot of testing to be done with Borderlands  2 as we plan to integrate in our GPU testing going forward.  As we have  done in the past, the chances are good that we will do so setting PhysX  at the lowest possible setting - it annoys NVIDIA when we do that but  it seems to be the most fair way to compare the performance of these  varying GPUs.  Especially until we figure out exactly WHY the  performance is dropping so dramatically on AMD cards when PhysX is at  Medium or High.
 It is nice that least AMD Radeon users have the option to enable  PhysX at all, and if you are playing with a high performance cards like  the HD 7900s, you will probably still be able to set it to Medium and  get playable frame rates at 1080p.  No, NVIDIA hasn't enabled PhysX  acceleration on AMD cards, but they appear to have chosen to allow it to  run through the system as a whole (or maybe they just forgot). 
UPDATE: I did finally get an answer from Gearbox about the  slow downs we were seeing on the AMD results.  Apparently when larger  collections of PhysX simulations are running on the CPU, those threads  can take quite a bit longer than they would when running on the GPU.  As  a result, the CPU (and rest of the game engine code) becomes "blocked"  waiting for a single thread to finish, which results in the lower CPU  utilization we saw on the AMD results as well as the lower overall  performance.  Because PhysX is an NVIDIA engine, even if Gearbox chose  to they likely couldn't add in additional multi-threaded capabilities to  the PhysX code path so the slow down here is likely to stay.
 For most NVIDIA GPU users, the additional PhysX effects are a fun and  simple way to increase the "cool" factor of your gaming experience and  you should be able to run at Medium or High pretty easily.  That is just  one of the advantages you get with the NVIDIA GeForce brand with this  title.  Mid-range AMD users will want to leave PhysX at low for the best  frame rates but if you have a high end system and utilize a higher end  Radeon GPU you can probably still get away with the Medium setting. 

Taken from:*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/graphic-cards/180508-dedicated-nvidia-gpu-physx-needed-when-using-r9-270x-main-gpu.html


[h=2]Borderlands 2: is CPU capable of handling the PhysX effects?[/h] with 25 comments
*Borderlands 2*, latest and probably one of the greatest games with support for GPU accelerated *PhysX effects*, is a HOT topic these days. *Update:* GPU PhysX in Borderlands 2 – PhysX review and comparison video *Update #2:* Borderlands 2 PhysX Benchmark Roundup Usually, extra PhysX effects are meant  to be executed on compatible NVIDIA GPUs, so even if one can force his  CPU to do the work, it is not very effective – massive slowdowns and fps  drops during scenes with intence physics are make the games hardly  enjoyable. This is valid for titles like Batman series, Alice: Madness  Returns, Mafia II and others. Said matter was a tough topic over recent years, even resulting in claims that NVIDIA “hobbles” the CPU PhysX performance by purpose, to make their GPUs look more advantageous. However, recently we saw many reports (mostly from AMD users) that *Borderlands 2* shows surprisingly good performance, while running with all PhysX effects enabled even without a NVIDIA card in the system. Thus, we decied to perform a little investigation to answer the question – *can a CPU handle all the extra PhysX effects in Borderlands 2 ?* A boss fight against “Boom and his brother Bewm” is a good candidate for PhysX testing – scene contains a lot of particles (also, particles are constantly generated over time) and some cloth objects. *physxinfo.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/border2_bench1_sm.jpgGun in our hands has explosive rounds - this produces even more particles

​ Testing system: i7 2600K CPU, GTX 580 GPU, 8 GB RAM, Win 7 64-bit. In-game settings: 1680×1024, all High. 60 sec sequence was recorded with FRAPS. *physxinfo.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/border_bench2.png​ First of all, Borderlands 2 is showing excellent performance while utilizing GPU for PhysX calculations – minimum framerate is above 60 even on high PhysX settings. But most interesting, CPU execution can also provide playble framerate, despite the fact that Borderlands 2 is still using good old PhysX SDK 2.8.4.  We assume that some scenes in the game, containing lots of fluids,  particle effects or your co-op friends, may result in lower fps  (~15-20), but still – framerate won’t crawl most of the time, like in  previous games. *UPDATE [26.09]:*  we have recieved several commentaries, that the scene we have choosen  for our previous test, while being pretty heavy on PhysX effects, is  still not producing too much load for the CPU. Thus, we decided to give it another try, but now using one of the most demanding levels of the game, as we heard – Caustic Caverns. *physxinfo.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/border_bench3_sm.jpgCrystalisks are vomiting SPH Fluids

 A place near the beginning of the level  presents a good opportunity for testing, as it comprises several  high-poly cloth pieces, many particle effects, Crystalisks and Varkids  spitting SPH liquids. Results are averaged over the two runs for each of settings. *physxinfo.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/border_bench4.png​ While GPU performance took a large hit,  it still can maintain minimum framerate above 30 fps and keep average  framerate at pleasant 50 fps. CPU execution of PhysX effects, in comparison, crawls at nearly unplayable 15-20 fps level. We can now clearly say that fluid simulation is affecting the CPU performance the most. *UPDATE #2 [28.09]:* final round of testing, now using PhysX benchmark, built into Borderlands 2 (will be available soon in a patch). ​ It is designed to extensively utilize all kind of PhysX effects during the sequence. *physxinfo.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/border_bench5.png​ As you may see, numbers are located  somewhere in between our two previous results – benchmark scene indeed  includes some complex physics interactions, but the ones you may  encounter in real game will affect your framerate in more dramatical  way. *To summarize:* If you  are playing Borderlands 2 in Single Player mode, carefully avoiding  fluid emitting weapons/enemies and staying away from certain areas of  the game – you may find a CPU execution of PhysX effects sufficient. But  if want really comfortable gameplay, without any compromises – presence of NVIDIA GPU is still a mandatory. *P.S.* if PhysX  option is grayed out on your system, you still can change the settings  using "PhysXLevel" parameter in "WillowEngine.ini" file:
(\Documents\My Games\Borderlands 2\WillowGame\Config) PhysXLevel=0 - PhysX Low
PhysXLevel=1 - PhysX Medium
PhysXLevel=2 - PhysX High
*P.P.S.* Hybrid PhysX configurations are also supported.

PS: I got good PhysX rendered on my HD7770.This is why I asked whether a dedicated GPU is required or not.I installed just PhysX standalone drivers.


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## sam_738844 (Jan 7, 2014)

^^
    OP could ask me as i have played BL2 with Phyx iwith high-end Nvidia hardware, and i had friends in co-op all the time with high end AMD GPU

if you're talking about gpu accelerated PhysX the answer is NO , AMD GPU CANNOT RENDER phyx, the calculation will be off-loaded to CPU, the amount of phyx effects i have seen and experienced with 200+ hours of borderlands2 are amazing but they can nail down the GPU to its knees and specially in co-op. The amount of effects , if tried to be rendered by a CPU, one has to spend an insane amount of money against a very fast unlocked CPU such as 3***X or 4***X and get a decent amount of effects with any AMD GPU. You did not have any phyx calculation done by the AMd gpu, you could install the standalone drivers because the CPU can do it too.


"_its a fact that Nvidia currently only allows GPU-accelerated PhysX on its own graphics cards, thus forcing everyone else to calculate the PhysX instructions implemented in games using the CPU.
Assuming that a calculation can be parallelized, a GPU with its multiple shader units is faster than a conventional CPU with two, three, four, or even six cores. According to Nvidia, physics calculations are two to four times faster on GPUs than CPUs. 

That’s just half of the truth, though, because there are no physics features that couldn’t be implemented solely on the CPU. Quite often, games use a combined CPU + GPU approach, with the highly parallelizable calculation,s such as particle effects, performed by the GPU and the more static, non-parallelizable calculations, such as ragdolls, performed by the CPU. This is the case in Sacred 2, for example. In theory, the ratio of highly parallelizable calculations should in many cases be too low to really take noticeable advantage of the immense GPU speed.


But then why is the difference often so drastic in practice?

There are at least two reasons for this. The first one is that, in almost all of the games tested, CPU-based PhysX uses just a single thread, regardless of how many cores are available. The second one is that Nvidia seems to be intentionally not optimizing the CPU calculations in order to make the GPU solution look better. We’ll have to investigate multithreading at a later time with a suitable battery of benchmarks. Right now, we want to explore Nvidia deliberately leaving its code in a state where CPUs just can’t compete with GPUs._" --toms


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## Cilus (Jan 7, 2014)

We did have have this discussion so many time here and I should make a sticky thread about all the physX queries. I have used a GT 240 GDDR5 for Hybrid PhysX (2X6870 IN CF + GT 240 GDDR5 and then HD 7950 VaporX + GT 240) for some long times.

1. For running GPU PhysX, you need an nVidia GPU with 512MB of Ram and minimum of 32 stream Processors. It should be 8000 series or later. It will not run on any other company's GPU.
2. For using another card from other vendor (Read AMD) as main card and another nVidia card as PhysX card, you need to mod the nVidia Driver. Details are here: How To: Fix Hybrid PhysX with latest PhysX and Geforce 285+ [SOLVED!]
3. PhysX does not really add up any eye candy which is not possible with other CPU based Physics rendering engines like Havoc and bullet. But just to show the differences nVidia had deliberately crippled the PhysX codepath for CPU execution by using unoptimized and older x87 codes. 
4. Due to very negative reviews, starting from PhysX SDK 3.0 release, nVidia has added optimized CPU codepath for PhysX, implemented by SSE2. So any games, implementing PhysX by using 3.0 version, can run the PhysX code optimally over the CPU irrespective of the GPU. However, it still runs slightly better when executed by a nVidia GPU.


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## topgear (Jan 7, 2014)

ah, technologies and their drawbacks set by manufacturers .. be it mantle, physx or g-sync


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## flyingcow (Jan 7, 2014)

Cilus said:


> For running GPU PhysX, you need an nVidia GPU with 512MB of Ram and minimum of 32 stream Processors. It should be 8000 series or later. It will not run on any other company's GPU.


This is what i wanted to ask


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## bssunilreddy (Jan 7, 2014)

Is Zotac GT630 Synergy Edition 1GB GPU @ 4.4k enough as a PhysX card? Main card will be HIS R9 270X 2GB GPU.


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## harshilsharma63 (Jan 7, 2014)

Really? After all the discussion you are still asking the same question?


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## sam_738844 (Jan 7, 2014)

HOW HARD it is to comprehend that when buying an AMD GPU, buyers already know that it doesnt come with phyx, and the acceptability factor does not fade away. Phyx is not everything, its definitely is something but not everything, and if you're so up to it, agreeing to the fact that some major titles does have phyx titles in recent times, you're ready to pay 15+4=19K on two different GPUs and await a $hit load of hassle, why dont you go for a 20~K nvidia GTX 760?? why so bent on AMD GPU in such case?


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## ASHISH65 (Jan 7, 2014)

sam_738844 said:


> HOW HARD it is to comprehend that when buying an AMD GPU, buyers already know that it doesnt come with phyx, and the acceptability factor does not fade away. Phyx is not everything, its definitely is something but not everything, and if you're so up to it, agreeing to the fact that some major titles does have phyx titles in recent times, you're ready to pay 15+4=19K on two different GPUs and await a $hit load of hassle, why dont you go for a 20~K nvidia GTX 760?? why so bent on AMD GPU in such case?



+1.

The only feature i like about Nvidia Gpu is Adaptive vsync


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## anirbandd (Jan 9, 2014)

bavusani said:


> Is Zotac GT630 Synergy Edition 1GB GPU @ 4.4k enough as a PhysX card? Main card will be HIS R9 270X 2GB GPU.





harshilsharma63 said:


> Really? After all the discussion you are still asking the same question?







sam_738844 said:


> HOW HARD it is to comprehend that when buying an AMD GPU, buyers already know that it doesnt come with phyx, and the acceptability factor does not fade away. Phyx is not everything, its definitely is something but not everything, and if you're so up to it, agreeing to the fact that some major titles does have phyx titles in recent times, you're ready to pay 15+4=19K on two different GPUs and await a $hit load of hassle, why dont you go for a 20~K nvidia GTX 760?? why so bent on AMD GPU in such case?





gtx760 is a good card. good for physx + gfx


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