# narendra modi v/s congress



## ssdivisiongermany1933 (Dec 7, 2007)

Gujarat elections on head now ... Its not BJP v/s congress ..but its narendra modi v/s congress .. 

the current elections in gujarat will decide the fate of both congress and bjp ..and Modi is getting popular day by day , guess who is gonna win ..

Kaun banega sardar kiski banegi sarkar


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## nix (Dec 8, 2007)

i support narendra modi...
he is a man of steel. he commands respect and awe. dont blame him for the riots. there is no solid proof that he supported/helped it. congress has been fabricating stuff against him. even media is against him. he stands alone. if ppl resort to violence...what is his fault? he tried to stop the violence but in vain...

what happened in gujarat was the ppl's wish. they retaliated. let us not be one sided. both muslims and hindu's died. not that only muslims died, as projected by some parts of the media. 
everyone talks about best bakery...but no one talks about the sabarmati S6 coach.... why?
are those ppl children of a lesser god?

hindu's have become the worst losers in india... every now and then,our gods are insulted. like the ram setu issue. just today, west bengal CM again insulted ram by saying that it is fictional. it is a cheap tactic to gain votes... by extremists..he is pleasing fundamentalists..

again, the taslima case proves it... he has given in to islamic fundamentalists by telling her to "get out"....


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## praka123 (Dec 8, 2007)

taking revenge also does not going to help.he stands for so called hindus in Gujrat,not for all people.how can you expect everyone in a state to accept this.but BJP is a party which is for Hindu's.they will destruct/kill Muslims esp if comes into power.though they have Minority Morcha et al.
My point is we need parties like congress which is somewhat neutral.
Although I accept,due to "teachings",Muslims will be more into violence as the "teachings" directly proclaims and the catechism given by fundamental "Islamic Scholars" in madrassa's will make even a Ahimsa-vadi into a terrorist due to their acts.
But still Mody needs to be neutral.both sides shud calm down.too much of violence,thanks to peace loving religions


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## planetcall (Dec 8, 2007)

Babri masjid incident was a glorious fallacy of congress rejime ! I support nix for his view on modi. Modi has taken Gujarat to great height and the development work has been really good. People who are there in Gujarat, do acknowledge the developments being done by the state govt. Hinduism is just a card that is being played for the election but I do believe the development work that is currently very stable and on the track, would be a boon for the state.
Regarding Congress, I dont like sonia. I would never support any party that is being led by some foreigner. Congress is supported by Communists and Lalu. I wonder why we have a reason to support congress. The plight of Madhya Pradesh we have already seen. The downfall of Bihar is another glorious act of congress. 60 years of independence and hunger and illetracy looming large in our nation is another gift by the congress. I would never give my vote to congress anyway. We dont need congress ............. atleast not anymore.
*upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/ivoted.gif


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## karnivore (Dec 8, 2007)

The great Indian tradegy is that, even after 60 years of independence, neither have we, the voters, have matured, nor our political fraternity has. 

Modi, indeed, has taken Gujrat a step forward, in terms of commerce, trade and industry. Question is, are all the components of the society included in the "step-forward". The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.

Frankly, as human being, my body does not produce enough spit, that i can paint Modi with. And thats a shame.

As with Tasleema, isn't it irony, that the proscribers of Hussain are becoming her protector. And it is even more of a shame, that Kolkata does not have enough space to accomodate her.


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## sachin_kothari (Dec 8, 2007)

I recently had a trip to gujarat.
When i asked a few people about the outcome of the elections they said Modi will win outright.
They say he has changed the face of gujarat completely like no one else did.
Also they say he is like a one man army.


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## ssdivisiongermany1933 (Dec 8, 2007)

I don't know what Modi did in gujarat ...but surely he is hard core saffornist .regarding congress its the biggest enemy of majority in India ...


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## kumarmohit (Dec 8, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> taking revenge also does not going to help.he stands for so called hindus in Gujrat,not for all people.how can you expect everyone in a state to accept this.but BJP is a party which is for Hindu's.they will destruct/kill Muslims esp if comes into power.though they have Minority Morcha et al.



They were in power for a complete session. According to the censuss which took place in the time of a BJP led govt, it was proved that muslims were increasing in the numbers in India while Hindus were decreasing.



> My point is we need parties like congress which is somewhat neutral.



Neutral and Congress! Go ask the Sikh victims of 1984 riots, who is neutral. 



> Although I accept,due to "teachings",Muslims will be more into violence as the "teachings" directly proclaims and the catechism given by fundamental "Islamic Scholars" in madrassa's will make even a Ahimsa-vadi into a terrorist due to their acts.
> But still Mody needs to be neutral.both sides shud calm down.too much of violence,thanks to peace loving religions



Totally Agree



			
				karnivore said:
			
		

> As with Tasleema, isn't it irony, that the proscribers of Hussain are becoming her protector. And it is even more of a shame, that Kolkata does not have enough space to accomodate her.



And is it not a bigger irony that dear Buddha and his red flag bearing bunch who claim to be secular think that secularism is only at stake when the muslims votes are at stake. 

Isnt it amusing that when Buddha says that Rama is a poetic nuance, or when Hussein paints Hindu gods in objectionable form, they claim he has freedom of expression but when Salman Rushdie writes a book or when Taslima says something which supposedly hurts muslim sentiments they are lambasted. Some hypocritical double standards they have about freedom of expression and secularism.


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## karnivore (Dec 8, 2007)

> And is it not a bigger irony that dear Buddha and his red flag bearing bunch who claim to be secular think that secularism is only at stake when the muslims votes are at stake.
> 
> Isnt it amusing that when Buddha says that Rama is a poetic nuance, or when Hussein paints Hindu gods in objectionable form, they claim he has freedom of expression but when Salman Rushdie writes a book or when Taslima says something which supposedly hurts muslim sentiments they are lambasted. Some hypocritical double standards they have about freedom of expression and secularism.


 
Can't agree with you more. The communists have always been like this, all round the world.They, themselves become the very insititution that they seek to demolish.


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## runeet (Dec 9, 2007)

Its a shame, a blatant shame that a party such as congress, which is basically led by a foreigner is at power in this nation. Its like colonialism all over again, they are following the British policy of divide & rule while playing vote bank politics. This nation is a free country & an indivisual utilizing this freedom is told to shut-up. What the hell!!! Now the congress chief calling Modi as a merchent of death, what abt themselves of the Sikh riots. 
This bloody party is out to ruin the country. It cannot be allowed to be brought to power again.
EVERYBODY WAKE UP, START VOTING.


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## ssdivisiongermany1933 (Dec 9, 2007)

congress and its allies are hypocrates ... specially RJD 

RJD was involved in 1989 bhagal pur Riots where 1800 muslims were killed by official records .. and lalu is biggest lover of muslims


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## praka123 (Dec 9, 2007)

a single solution for all the problems in India *UNIFORM CIVIL CODE* 
That puts an end to everything that a major "minority" community does!also   minority appeasement for votebank must be stopped esp with the major "minority" community as India holds the 2nd largest population of that "minority" 
Real minorities in India are Christians,sikhs,jains et al.give them the attention and justice,not to "major" Minority


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## runeet (Dec 10, 2007)

Basically there should be no minority. The biggest joke of our constitution is that it says 'everyone is treated as equal' & then talks about various minorities.
If the minority concept is completely eliminated, India can readily progress.
And by the way, judging by their rate of reproduction I dont think Muslims are minority any more.


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## praka123 (Dec 10, 2007)

^some protection does needed for minorities.it is not as easy as you believe.


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## ssdivisiongermany1933 (Dec 10, 2007)

minorities are more safe in india than majorities ......


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## esumitkumar (Dec 10, 2007)

++1 for praka's suggestions for UNIFORM CIVIL CODE ..but my dear that will not be possible due to cheap vote bank politics  

I am a big supporter of Modi ..Make him the next PM candidate (who gives a wink to Atal and Advani ??) and see BJP win all over India ...

Gujarat is a developed state and all credit goes to Modi

Make him PM and see the revolution


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## Pathik (Dec 10, 2007)

Dunno abt the riots but it is true that Narendra Modi is the man behind the Progress of Gujarat.
We need powerful ministers like him


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## vicky_l7 (Dec 10, 2007)

even i support him its so ironic that people who talk of secularism is the most who doesn't follow it like congress


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## praka123 (Dec 10, 2007)

*Dictator*
Modi is a dictator though he did afaik many good work.he is a terrorist against Islamists ,but in that work,he got hate syndrome against every minorities.I know that majority supports him more for his hindutva politricks.

*Modi as PM candidate?*
Still Modi is never ever imagine to be a PM candidate,He is made as a such a hindu fanatic by the resident terrorist Islamists who provoked and got what they needed via Modi(Killing of Muslims in Gujarat).
*Fanatic?*
But now modi himself became the biggest terrorist.he gets support from majority Hindus,but the hate wave he has with Islam and along with it Christians too made him a moron infront of other human beings in Gujarat and India who are not Hindus.  

I viewed in TV, his childish talks against Sonia Gandhi,that she asked gov to make a  "cross" in new 2 rupees Coin!he is a fanatic fool.

*Catholic white lady from Italy?Can't Tolerate ?*
As an *Indian Citizen* Sonia(why do u care so much for "made in India" progeny?) has the right to become PM also.she replied well calling Modi  "maut ka saudagar".Indeed Modi is Merchent of Death!
she only got the courage to reply what is needed.

Congress is still more secular and Democratic than hindu BJP or its allies like Shiva Sena,RSS.
*Indian Origin?*
if in that logic that Sonia cant be PM because she is from Italy,caucausian,Catholic Christian,

Then,all Hindu members in british parliament and the Lords should get out of Europe.yeah!that is reality.Europe and US allows Middle-east,India,Pak "immigrants" there and allows them full freedom and many Indians are becoming leaders there.So,no one objected.but Why India cant tolerate Sonia as PM?Thinking a foreigner is ruling you?I pity  

*Congress fails on Islamists agrees*
although I agrees congress is silent on Islamists and their missionaries working their to create the universal country of Islam,where the God is Allah,Sharia is the law(inspired from Manusmruti,a violent interpretation) and all non-muslims are kaafirs and Dhimmi's.The provocation from Muslims are difficult to withstand sometimes.
above,I explained what is cooking inside with Muslims.

*Minority is not equal to Muslims,But Christians,Jains also includes!*
BJP is a definite NO-NO for any minority.Thank God!BJP is still nowhere in South India!.

I can understand that majority Hindus especially in north india got animosity and anger against minorities due to these Islamists!
Believe me,No Christians or Buddhists,Jains are like those fundamentalists in India!dont pour your anger for fundamentalists to average minority men.

I hope my explanation is OK


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## nix (Dec 11, 2007)

why cant you type in proper english? i had a hard time understanding your time... i've read it twice and still dont think i've got it right..
anyway, from what i ve understood...here is what ive to say:
first off, his talks are not "childish" , that cannot be termed as childish in any sense. he gave it back to sonia. you know how she gives speeches? its hindi speeches written in english 

why do you call him a terrorist? he is not a fanatic... you need to get your facts right. the so called "proof" is all made up. tehelka is fake. 

even muslims vote for modi in gujarat. they like his developmental schemes. its only the media is making too much of it...


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## praka123 (Dec 11, 2007)

you dont believe tehelka?wow!now why did he quit off from karen thapper's show?MODI IS A FANATIC and MAJORITY RELIGION ENJOYS THIS!
yeah am bad with formatting!just try to read it  am not that good in English you know!
Only thing worth mentioning is Modi suppressed Muslims.He allowed Hindus take revenge on Muslims reg Godhra.
But I though Aarsh-Bharatha Sanskar is something unlike barbarian civilization from Messopotomia,Sumeria.their laws are cut hands,eye-for-eye.
But as Indians,there needs to be peaceful solution for all these problems. fanatic like Modi and Thogadia cannot help that!


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## kumarmohit (Dec 11, 2007)

@praka 

As fo Dear Sonia being an Indian citizen, her citizenship is still a bone of contention. According to Indian law of citizenship, you can not hold citizenship of any other country and according to Italian law of citizenship, you can not renounce Italian citizenship at all. This make her citizenship a bit well... debatable, any way the matter is in court. 

About the cross thing, It is a fact that the cross is a religious symbol. I do not know if Sonia is involved in this but being a secular country means that govt property can not officially carry mark of single religion, thus making it superior to others. If some pple see that that the cross is a religious symbol which it actually is, it can not be on the currency of a secular nation. 

And if you want to know about the secularism of congress, please go and ask the Sikhs, or go and ask Shah Bano, or go and ask Salman Rushdie whose book was banned by a Congress govt, go and ask the makers of The Da Vinci Code, or most recent case go ask Tasleema NAsrin whose movie was all but.stopped by the govt. 

All that i want to say is that every single political party in this country is communal some claim to be so openly like Muslim League or SS, some do it under cover like left and congress.

About believing Tehelka, please do take wat tehelka says with a pinch of salt. And I am saying this cause I am graduate in journalism and I  have a bit of an idea of how the company works. Let me give you one simple example regarding the reporting of wahtever happened in Gujarat. Tehelka says that while the army had arrived in Gujarat on the 28, Modi govt deployed it only on 1 of next month. The period in between was that of progorm and commotion. 

Tehelka conveniently forgot to tell in their reports that the army arrived on 28 Feb and it was deployed on 1 March. And no it was not a leap year. Tehelka does what we in communication institutions call Gotcha Journalism

*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotcha_journalism


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## praka123 (Dec 11, 2007)

As being a minority myself(yes!digest it!),I can very well understand the frustration when BJP came to power in centre.In Bihar a Pastor and his son was burned off by Hindu fanatic.Nuns are raped,Churches are looted,Fathers are Killed.Christians are living in fear in many states especially in North India.
the vengeance for Muslims are done on poor Christians who are the real minority!come to my state and see the difference.

Government does not care for real minorities especially BJP is against Christians. 

BJP =never.Congress is somewhat acceptable.Communists also OK.but never BJP or any Hindutva vaadi's on power.We dont want to leave our  motherland just because we are on another religion.I know what VHP,RSS,Shiva Sena does.even I was Evangalised by a Hindutva terrorist once in a bike journey!he asked my name and thought i am a Hindu.now he is evangalizing me to get ready to defend Islamists and hate messages for Christians(who are 22% on my state).I wonder,what will happen if all hindus lose their tolerable nature.
I have edited my post no.19.read it if you are ready


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## kumarmohit (Dec 11, 2007)

> I can very well understand the frustration when BJP came to power in centre


And wud you be kind enuf to remind me about the increse in the number of minority popultion that was shown under the census conducted during that govt rule.



> In Bihar a Pastor and his son was burned off by Hindu fanatic.Nuns are raped,Churches are looted,Fathers are Killed.Christians are living in fear in many states especially in North India.



Look I do not want this to be a cat fight or something but there a number of places in North east India and in your dear south India where the christian missionaries have forcefully stopped Hindus from doing their pujas and desecrated the idols and temples (yes in this age), there are a number of instances where people have been converted by force or by lure.



> BJP =never.Congress is somewhat acceptable.Communists also OK.but never BJP or any Hindutva vaadi's on power.We dont want to leave our motherland just because we are on another religion.I know what VHP,RSS,Shiva Sena does.even I was Evangalised by a Hindutva terrorist once in a bike journey!he asked my name and thought i am a Hindu.now he is evangalizing me to get ready to defend Islamists and hate messages for Christians(who are 22% on my state).I wonder,what will happen if all hindus lose their tolerable nature.



When the christian missionaries evangelize, they become saviors but when hindus try to do so they become terrorists! Some double standards this country has and yet it claims to view all religions as equal. 

The fact of the matter is that tolerance has to come from both sides, Why is it that most of the minorities live peacefully, because they are also tolerant and accommodating. If the majority is the only one who has to accommodate every time then I am sorry to say but their is something seriously wrong with the entire system.




> the vengeance for Muslims are done on poor Christians who are the real minority!come to my state and see the difference.


 Been there but just for 3-4 months so cant say much



> I have edited my post no.19.read it if you are ready



If this is about formatting I never complained about that


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## praka123 (Dec 11, 2007)

kumarmohit said:
			
		

> And wud you be kind enuf to remind me about the increse in the number of minority popultion that was shown under the census conducted during that govt rule.


 I dont think so.the report says the population increase is not much.esp Christians.


			
				kumarmohit said:
			
		

> Look I do not want this to be a cat fight or something but there a number of places in North east India and in your dear south India where the christian missionaries have forcefully stopped Hindus from doing their pujas and desecrated the idols and temples (yes in this age), there are a number of instances where people have been converted by force or by lure.


Tell me!this is news!afaik only muslims does that!and dont think that all are "converted" christians.for eg:if you consider syrian christians, they are a mix of jews,Namboodiri Brahmins etc.they are converted at the time when christianity is born!Saint Thomas came to western coast for this.

and for muslims,not all are forcibly converted as in North India!Moplah Muslims of Kerala are having their roots from 7th century itself when Malik ibn Deenar,a close one of Mohammad came here to spread the message WITHOUT SWORDS!!!!
Many Hindu temples are converted into Masjids or Churches when the whole area is accepting Christianity or Islam.so ofcourse the old temples are converted into Churches or Mosques.this is a fact!and they are the owners!


			
				kumarmohit said:
			
		

> When the christian missionaries evangelize, they become saviors but when hindus try to do so they become terrorists! Some double standards this country has and yet it claims to view all religions as equal.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that tolerance has to come from both sides, Why is it that most of the minorities live peacefully, because they are also tolerant and accommodating. If the majority is the only one who has to accommodate every time then I am sorry to say but their is something seriously wrong with the entire system.


 Hindus does not have to do the evangalization!India is a Hindu country and most Indians root their Origins as Hindus itself.where does evangalization come?It is new religions like Christianity or Islam which uses Evangalization.the fellow who try to evangalize me is not a Hindu missionary,but a violent terrorist who wants to destroy the religious harmony and peace prevailing in the state.in the same way,I blame Muslim radical groups like NDF and Madhani groups for wahabbism and creating problems among peace loving people.I know that they are more violent.

Still Hindu India cannot grow by sacking Christian minorities.Christians unlike Islam are patriotic.I feel that there is the venom of religion which is there with you too!


Just One word,India cannot be in peace by suppressing minorities as Modi does.If Modi become PM,no dobut US will be the most happiest to attack India calling this mad Modi as a dictator!
as simple it is=Modi is not a Hero for ALL!He is a fanatic terrorist who wants to kill every Moslems,Christians.He and His party is particulary against abrahamic religions.He needs to be jailed along with thogadia,Madhani et al.


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## kumarmohit (Dec 11, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> Still Hindu India cannot grow by sacking Christian minorities.Christians unlike Islam are patriotic.I feel that there is the venom of religion which is there with you too!



Kool it man, why get Personal! and what is wrong in defending Hinduism or spreading it, you can defend and spread yours, I can do mine, natural justice is it not? Going by your dominant religion concept, both christians and moslems shud abandon evangelization first as they are the two largest groups in the world!


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## nix (Dec 11, 2007)

@praka: there is no injustice being done to indian christians. the same cannot be said of countries like pakistan, bangla, where it happens often.

and pls dont drag modi's name into this. whatever happened in gujrat riots was between the majority and the biggest minority. not christians. christians were not harmed. christians have never been harmed in india. 

and about the karan thapar show: you know , modi 's english is not very good.  he cant talk fluent english. he didnt want to say something and that been taken in a different context by the media and a mess being made up. he got up from the interview to be on the safe side. not because he didnt have an answer.


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## ssdivisiongermany1933 (Dec 12, 2007)

whatever any one say in Modi set to comeback again . and as a third time as CM of gujurat ..


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## mediator (Dec 12, 2007)

nix said:
			
		

> @praka: there is no injustice being done to indian christians. the same cannot be said of countries like pakistan, bangla, where it happens often.
> 
> and pls dont drag modi's name into this. whatever happened in gujrat riots was between the majority and the biggest minority. not christians. christians were not harmed. christians have never been harmed in india.
> 
> and about the karan thapar show: you know , modi 's english is not very good.  he cant talk fluent english. he didnt want to say something and that been taken in a different context by the media and a mess being made up. he got up from the interview to be on the safe side. not because he didnt have an answer.


 I dont think he got up becoz of poor english. Karan thapar acts like a retard now who has lost the senses of even a basic anchor. You can very well see him questioning like he is interrogating a criminal everytime. Modi got up when the same old story bt Godhra was questioned and I think Modi did right by getting up.

Besides,  I dont understand why nobody talks bt Kashmiri Pandits? Godhra was initiated by Muslim Mob and Kashmiri pandits suffer far more comparatively. I guess they r a minority there without any privileges, reservation or sharia'h like "boon" for them! Equality for all?


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## praka123 (Dec 12, 2007)

shariath is forced inside Moslems in many parts of the country,not to say Kashmiri Moslems who are influenced by the missionaries from saudi and afghan.

Indeed,it is a very sad case,when pundits community are forced to leave to Delhi and other places for resuce.many are killed and nobody is taking side for them.may be bcoz they are not a vote bank.

..and this shows what is in store for us,when "Universal Kingdom of Islam" Establishes and shariath is forced on every one.all except christians and jews are to be beheaded for idol worship-as per shariath law.where in Islam Church and  state is Islam itself.BTW,shariath is again a violent barbarian interpretation of Manusmriti(YES!!!).

Modi is revered  for his killing of moslems. but again violence is not a solution.to stop repeating gothra and kashmir union government must pass "UNIFORM CIVIL CODE" asap.also madrassas should be watched by a government appointed establishment.the hate starts from childhood itself for a orthodox muslim kid.if "Universal Kingdom of Islam" is established,we sure gonna  suffer.

even Europeans who are not having successors(children),turkish moslems and arab,african moslems are breeding  in faster pace in europe esp France where a muslim couple will have almost 5 or above children.in this rate before 2050 itself Islam will win Europe!even in India,Muslims are denying 1 or 2 child policy  even from educated muslims we saw terror esp kafeel mahomet in London.wth?

hence the solution is to stop over breeding of Muslims and stopping shariath been forced on Muslims in India indirectly by wahabbi muslims.stop madrassa and make them teach English.this solves everything!!!India will prosper when terrorism stops!


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## mediator (Dec 12, 2007)

And it will stop when big parties like Congress, run by a foreign lady who can't even sing the national anthem and song properly, will pledge to make 2 child norm a reality. But we can see the irony, they talk bt secularism and then make restrictions and exceptions! KAshmiri pandits are killed and its no news, a muslim gets killed its a big news; they ask for broadminded marriages irrespective of religion and then shy to criticise the maulvis who say "Quran prohibits marriage of muslim women with non-muslim men unless they convert"; a bull race in Kerela becomes an issue with animal rights activists whereas goats beheading on bakri-id is perfectly OK;MF hussain's drawings of indian godesses playing with hindu sentiments is fine whereas TASLIMA NASREEN's case  becomes an exception. Freedom of speech? 
I understand all political parties are corrupt. But surely I want PROGRESS and not CONGRESS!


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## moshel (Dec 12, 2007)

Please dont believe all that the media is saying....the whole media is against modi. and the only point they have against modi is of the 2002 riots. Which the Gujarat people have forgotten and also dont wanna remember it.

The only thing in the mind of the people is development. They will vote for the one who they think will work for the development of gujarat. Hindu, Muslim, OBC, SC, ST....everyone is thinking on the same lines.

@vicky_l7 so true man..
People in India (im talking abt all those Socialist types like Teesta setalvad etc) who call themselves to be "secular" are actually anti-hindu and pro-muslim....


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## praka123 (Dec 12, 2007)

if Hindus are united like in Gujarat,then there is no life for Muslims and other communities especially Christians(who are very rare in north india).
Just saw an independent report series on what is cooking in Gujarat by a malayalam channel.what i can say is that all muslims who are shown are following Islamic law and are very much against Hindus.while Hindus restricts the muslims to live in small packed areas in every city.many Muslims are saying about the gang rape and looting,killing by Hindu terrorists while in riots.what the report is saying is that Hindus and Muslims are completely divided permanantly by the fanatic terrorist called Modi.

I know,yes I know,every Hindu who is claiming non-biased also are giving hidden support for Modi for his treatment to Muslims.also Muslims are violent and riot initiators in most cases.still...no party can save when it is in power,be it bjp or congress(still congress is better).the enjoyment which a average gujarati(hindu) gets when modi is killing Muslims is a sweet face of a bigger menace.Muslims are now not a minority by itself.Muslims are now @ 22% ? or above.they can become a real problem for peace loving people once violence against Muslims are initiated.remember Islam is a organized religion and it clearly describes what to be done with Hindus.So maintaining peace and slowly stopping the shariath and madrassa teaching is the way for peace in india.

real minorities are not Muslims!they are Chrisitans,Jains etc.

report says the development and industrialization which is visible in modi's rule where because modi supports big corporates,not common man.but common man being under the illusion of a developed gujarat is losing his perception for a neutral view.


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## kumarmohit (Dec 13, 2007)

> if Hindus are united like in Gujarat,then there is no life for Muslims and other communities especially Christians(who are very rare in north india).



This is a mere speculation and no one deny the right of Hindus to be united because some people in media get a crackpot speculation. Hindus need to be united as much as any other community in the world. 



> Just saw an independent report series on what is cooking in Gujarat by a malayalam channel.



And you believe it! Go join a journalism course, first thing you would be taught is that Indian media is incredible. Our teachers explicitly asked us to say what everyone is saying. If you think any Indian media can report independently, then you need a reality check. 



> I know,yes I know,every Hindu who is claiming non-biased also are giving hidden support for Modi for his treatment to Muslims.



It depends but I doubt this. There are people with genuine concern but they are really rare. Most of the people who are criticising Modi are either pseudo secularists or Hindu apologists who think that it is a crime being a Hindu. These are the people who can call modi devil incarnate and then say that Taslima or Rushdie are the same as all of them are against Moslems. The third group is doing so because every one is doing so. For them it is sheer ignorance. 



> real minorities are not Muslims!they are Chrisitans,Jains etc.



Again I would be insolent to differ with you sir. The fact of the matter is that who is a minority depends on the area they are in. So even Hindus can be a minority like they are in kashmir or in some NE states or in Sikkim where the Buddhists are in such a majority that the Sangh has a seat reserved in their state legislature (So much for secularism! Refer Wikipedia page on Sikkim). It totally depends on the location.


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## moshel (Dec 13, 2007)

how can a reporter who comes and stays here for 15 days say all this about gujarat.



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> Just saw an independent report series on what is cooking in Gujarat by a malayalam channel.what i can say is that all muslims who are shown are following Islamic law and are very much against Hindus.



Muslims in gujarat are not against hindus....atleast they dont come out everyday and kill some hindus......even those following islamic law. and even if some muslim hates hindus, thats his personal view point. and there wud be quite a few of such....and everyone here has 1 muslim friend atleast!



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> while Hindus restricts the muslims to live in small packed areas in every city.



who says that the hindus restrict the muslims. Its the muslims who have chosen a few areas where they have settled down by themselves but in no way these are "small" and "packed". 

let me give u an example.....my family used to stay in Mirzapur area abt 30-35 years back. we are jews and we had abt 3 more jewish families in the same locality....there were abt 2 christian families and 2-3 parsis and 2-3 hindus....and 1 muslim family.

after a few years ppl started moving out(including us) and the locality slowly became a complete muslim locality. there was just 1 jewish family staying (thats abt 1992 or so).....this family didnt wanna move out and also didnt have that kind of purchasing power to move out....so these people were actually tortured using black magic and even other kinds of harrassments to force them to move out of there.....

so its not that someone has forced muslims to live in one area. The thing what every1 believes is that if they allow 1 muslim family to stay in their societies, slowly all muslims will start moving in that society. and thats why people are scared to sell houses to muslims. many societies dont allow any1 to sell house to a muslim. even builders dont sell houses of new societies they build in non-muslim areas to muslims...becos there is this fear in the minds of the people.



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> many Muslims are saying about the gang rape and looting,killing by Hindu terrorists while in riots.



well the looting and killing did happen....cant say abt gang rapes...



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> what the report is saying is that Hindus and Muslims are completely divided permanantly by the fanatic terrorist called Modi.



no they are not! this is just ridiculous. Hindus and muslims are not divided. its ok that they are living in different areas....but they work in the same offices....they go out with their families in the same gardens, malls, etc....hindus have muslim neighbours and vice versa.

Just come to Gujarat if u dont believe all this.

all wat the media says might be true in a 1 or maybe 2 cases but that doesnt mean that its the same situation in the whole state with each and every hindu and muslim.


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## praka123 (Dec 13, 2007)

well,what media reports  is the news for us.and i thought if some foreign newsreporters who is not biased will report the reality.as the feature shown in the channel shows interviews of locals etc reg what i posted earlier.
but yes,i am not yet to gujarat.so....i have to believe the news channels esp local newschannels in kerala which afaik is famous for reporting without much bias unlike popular national channels like cnn-ibn or zee.

edit:
*offtopic:*
@moshel:u r jew!well are u kochini jew(those migrated from middle east to kerala before bc-700 afaik)?(from cochin?)Kochi got lotta jews before.now 99% migrated to Israel after its formation in 1960's afaik.still there is the old synagogues in Mattancherry and N.Parur Kerala and few kochini jews there.Infact many(majority) jews are here as syrian christians  after st.thomas converted jews  along with other people.hence they  are hybrids . 
lately i heard these kochini jews who are darker(w.r.t german jews) are facing discrimination in Israel


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## damnthenet (Dec 14, 2007)

nix : " support narendra modi..."
..............this is a mere election slogan........................

nix : "he is a man of steel."
..............yes you are right ....there's no human nature in him..........

nix : "he commands respect and awe."
.............reslpect from people like you...................

nix : "dont blame him for the riots. there is no solid proof that he supported/helped it." 
..............yes it will be wrong to say that he supported / helped it bcoz 
.........................the truth is to say that he supported & helped it........

nix : "even media is against him. he stands alone." 
..............God, atleast media is doing some good work in Gujrat..........

nix : "if ppl resort to violence...what is his fault?
..............Gr8, why should we have court, law, and other blah blah!!!! Let ppl do whatever they want. LOL.................

nix : "he tried to stop the violence but in vain"
..............He must have been happy that he could not stop the growth of his brain child...................

nix : "what happened in gujarat was the ppl's wish."
..............I feel very sorry for the ppl of Gujarat for they only wish bad things to happen. My question is why it is happening only in Gujarat........

nix : "everyone talks about best bakery...but no one talks about the sabarmati S6 coach.... why?are those ppl children of a lesser god?"
.............Maybe because there is no better bakery in Gujarat till this day and subarmati is already running...........lol...............

nix : "hindu's have become the worst losers in india... every now and then,our gods are insulted. like the ram setu issue. just today, west bengal CM again insulted ram by saying that it is fictional. it is a cheap tactic to gain votes... by extremists..he is pleasing fundamentalists.."
.............sorry, no comments......................


nix : "again, the taslima case proves it... he has given in to islamic fundamentalists by telling her to "get out"...."
.............so you mean he gives in and hampers law to take its path, I too say the same.....................
................NOW THINK FOR URSELF........you need him?????????????
................LET PEACE PREVAIL................THIS IS JUST MY VIEW AND NO HURT INTENDED...................


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## ssdivisiongermany1933 (Dec 14, 2007)

if Modi wins then it would a bigger slap on those who hates him , because common people likes him ....an I support Modi to win , atleast there should be some people who shud support majority in a sickular country ...


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## mediator (Dec 14, 2007)

> many Muslims are saying about the gang rape and looting,killing by Hindu terrorists while in riots.


 I also wud like to know which "hindu terrorists" have been referred to, who kill and commit crime in the name of GODS or if someone who rapes and kills infidels as stated in some HOLY BOOK?

The term "religious extremism" shudn't be confused with 'communal tensions'.

This is what religious extremism looks like
@everyone ....please read!!




> Source: Babur Nama
> Place:Chanderi (Madhya Pradesh)
> 
> In AH 934 (CE 1528) I attacked Chanderi and *by the grace of Allah captured it in a few hours...We got the infidels slaughtered and the place which had been daru'l - harb for years was made into a daru'l-islam.*
> ...


Its too big for me to quote the entire thing n then bold the interesting parts .

About destruction of temples!

Remember thousands of mosques have been erected on the top of a demolished temple. Feel free to google to find out yourself!



> During their rule they looted and destroyed hundereds of thousands of Hindu temples. Aurangzeb himself destroyed 10,000 Hindu temples during his reign! Some of the larger temples were converted into mosques or other Islamic structures. Ram Janmbhoomi(at Ayodhya) and Krishna Temple(at Mathura) are just two examples. Many others exist!


 Source



This is what religious extremism and terrorism looks like! People shud read the various namah's a lil more. They came, they converted, they destroyed n made a complete mess! They came to England, US in small numbers bt now demand sharia'h and on not being granted they say "Injustice is being done to done to them". AS a result they seek "revenge". WTH!!

The few who r liberals and those who never really read THE holy book, which clearly describes whats to be done with the infidels, get stuck in the stampede when the natives reply to the barbarious initiations!

Godhra was initiated by whom and people sympathise with whom, forgetting bt the initiators completely!!


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## apacheman (Dec 14, 2007)

Well, it was Modi who sanctioned and planned even the Sabarmati coach burning and all. it as pre-planned.
How would one feel when the one who raped their mothers and sisters, and killed their kith and kin, roaming scot free in front of their eyes. Its something no man has the strength to bear. That's how terrorists are created. when injustice is meted out to them. Terrorists arent born, they are created, by the likes of Modi...who then use them to attract votes.
As this thread has strayed offtopic, i take the liberty to put up some facts.
its time we return to our scriptures.
Hinduism is a religion based on Vedas, Their most sacred scripture. The Vedas prohibit idol worship.
*"na tasya pratima asti
"There is no image of Him."
[Yajurveda 32:3]5 

"shudhama poapvidham"
"He is bodyless and pure." 
[Yajurveda 40:8]6
*
*"Ekam evadvitiyam"
"He is One only without a second."
[Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1]1

"Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah."
"Of Him there are neither parents nor lord."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9]2

"Na tasya pratima asti"
"There is no likeness of Him."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:19]3

"Na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam."
"His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:20]4
*
If the Vedas prohibit idol worship, then how can hindus justify idol worship, even when Vedas and Upanishads prohibit them? Which religion are they actually following?
same is the case with Islam. they have gone astray from their Quran. Nowhere it is in the Quran to kill hindus or non-muslims. Instead it says muslims to follow Islam and let the others follow their respective religions.
*Ch.109 Surah Kaafirun
"I worship not that which you worship,
Nor will you worship that which I worship.
To you, be your religion; and to me, my religion."*

What kinda Hindutva is Modi proclaiming? He does not know a thing about Hinduism in its true sense. And his so-called development is just limited to the cities. The villages and tribal areas are stung with poverty, lack of electricity and a plethora of woeful ballads n problems. its just a false propaganda for garnering votes.The Muslim areas are left unattended with people living among garbage dumps.


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## kumarmohit (Dec 14, 2007)

apacheman said:
			
		

> Well, it was Modi who sanctioned and planned even the Sabarmati coach burning and all. it as pre-planned.



Prove It? Mere claims and speculations are not going to get you anywhere. Bring a solid irrefutable proof. And if you think that the Railway enquiry reports are proof, the court has already chided dear Lalu for starting a supra legal authority when a legal bench is already considering the matters. They have said that the enquiry was 'politically motivated'



> How would one feel when the one who raped their mothers and sisters, and killed their kith and kin, roaming scot free in front of their eyes. Its something no man has the strength to bear. That's how terrorists are created. when injustice is meted out to them. Terrorists arent born, they are created, by the likes of Modi...who then use them to attract votes.



The matter is before the court you cannot pronounce anyone guilty because we have a legal system for that purpose.



> As this thread has strayed offtopic, i take the liberty to put up some facts.
> its time we return to our scriptures.
> Hinduism is a religion based on Vedas, Their most sacred scripture. The Vedas prohibit idol worship.
> *"na tasya pratima asti
> ...



I assume then that you have not read the Bhagwad Gita which is inherently higher than what is said in the Vedas as the Vedas are traditional knowledge that passed through generations with time. But Bhagwad Gita was spoken by the supreme being in his personal self and thus takes precedence over the Holy Vedas. 

And I think I would also like to remind you about one line

*"Yada Yada Hi Dharmasya Glanir Bhavti Bhartah Abhutthanm Adharamasya  Tadatmanam Srijamyaham"*

Hey Arjun, when ever the Adharma rises in the world and Dharma starts to lose ground, I would take worldy form and come to this world to set things right. 

And about the Quran the particular clause you are talking about is abrogated by a later clause which says : And when the holy month has passed, make war upon unbelievers and lay in wait for them and slay them where ever you find them.



> What kinda Hindutva is Modi proclaiming? He does not know a thing about Hinduism in its true sense.



Excuse me but i question your authority to say what he knows about Hinduism. For a starter, I would like to tell you that Hinduism is not all about taking everything lying down, being blinded by secularism. While we do not start attacking people, we do reply by other means when someone does not understand by peaceful means. To pay back in the same currency is as much a part of Hinduism as it is to welcome everyone in its fold. 



> And his so-called development is just limited to the cities. The villages and tribal areas are stung with poverty, lack of electricity and a plethora of woeful ballads n problems. its just a false propaganda for garnering votes.The Muslim areas are left unattended with people living among garbage dumps.



Oh dear, I am no one to comment on the development issue since this is the case of entire country. From Gurgaon in Harayana to West Bengal where we have Red rule. Infact this is a case of entire country. And moreover it is something, which is a lot better than the right royal mess of the countrythat was made during the first forty years and we had to resort to mortgaging our gold to the Bank of England. Just FYI, during this rule, Gujrat overtook Punjab as the richest state of India.


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## mediator (Dec 14, 2007)

> "na tasya pratima asti
> "There is no image of Him."
> [Yajurveda 32:3]5
> 
> ...


 Nice attempt to deviate the topic, but just to enlighten u for ur COPY N PASTE material from some ill-educated islamic sites probably whose sole purpose is to mis-translate and mis-interpret the Vedic scriptures etc, here is what the last sloka means.

""Na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam.""
Meaning : "His form *cannot* be seen; eyes cannot see him."

If u have read GITA, u will find the same thing!

@apacheman : I request u to learn some Sanskrit before jumping into this wonderful section i.e FIGHT CLUB, deviating the topic and showing ur ignorance!



> If the Vedas prohibit idol worship, then how can hindus justify idol worship, even when Vedas and Upanishads prohibit them? Which religion are they actually following?


 Nowhere in vedas it is written that Murti Puja is wrong, not to mention murti puja is found everywhere in puranas and itihaasas. There is a lot of difference between murti puja and GOD being immaterial. I suggest u learn what Murti Puja is.


Since u took a step in deviation, then lemme remind Quran forbids idolism of any sort, but still Muslims throng Mecca and stone the "imaginary" Satan! Whats that crap bt?



> same is the case with Islam. they have gone astray from their Quran. Nowhere it is in the Quran to kill hindus or non-muslims. Instead it says muslims to follow Islam and let the others follow their respective religions.


 U don't need to cover up the things. The writings are on the wall now n whole world knows the truth!! U shud read the namahs tooo u know.



> What kinda Hindutva is Modi proclaiming? He does not know a thing about Hinduism in its true sense. And his so-called development is just limited to the cities. The villages and tribal areas are stung with poverty, lack of electricity and a plethora of woeful ballads n problems. its just a false propaganda for garnering votes.The Muslim areas are left unattended with people living among garbage dumps.


 U bring modern schools to "sharia'ed" places and many will prefer "madrassa". U tell them to learn about science and technology, the maulvis will tell everyone too concentrate on Quran 'first', do five time namaz and practise Rozas. U open up modern schools, shariah will force Burqa on female "believers", sania mirza gets criticised for wearing short skirts on Tennis grounds , hadiths mention to circumsize but modern science clearly disapproves it and tells about its hazards, U tell many muslims a particular excerise they might do it, but the moment u mention that its YOGA that u r teaching them, they walk away!

So u see, u cannot say Muslim areas are unattended. Even if u try to prosper them, they will still like to live in their own isolations among garbage dumps reading Quran, questioning the illiterate maulvis to  further darken their world which was already full of ignorance and not learning anything modern or practicing YOGA which has very high benefits!

They went to US, Britain, France in small numbers and now demand shariah creating the cycle of terrorism again. What a mess. 

U can see clearly that nobody is making em live in garbage dumps. They are creating their natural habitats likewise for their own convenience. U can very well see in central asian muslim dominated countries how they forbid music and entertainment of various sorts! I guess the world without music IS indeed a garbage dump!!


@apacheman: I request u to learn some Sanskrit before foolishly deviating the topic like that!!


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## praka123 (Dec 14, 2007)

@mediator:when a child is brought up in such a organised religion,he cannot tolerate anything against it.

Infact Quran is preserved for these 1400+ years without much change.Personally I feel,Quran is a book acc. to the likes of Muhammad,it is hard to believe a divine angel helped him write this book.the book is the main reason for intolerability of Muslims.

the word "kill" is repeated many more times than any other religious holy books.from the start itself the religion is very violent.whole world except mongoloid china knows what Islam stands for.I felt Muslims are gonna predate Caucasians for their color and large build because Koran says Gaug and Magog are supposed to be look like europe and Caucasians people there.overbreeding in europe and elsewhere is a very thought out strategy.

well in our lives,we are going to see the world's largest war,where barbarians from arabia and Indonesia and other kattarwadi Muslim world attacking other parts of the world.I dont want to convert to islam even if i die,so are 99.999999% of people too.we dont want "peaceful" religion here.and dont want to witness and go through IIIrd world war  

I hope the teachings in koran should mellow out.else reading the book makes you a fanatic as it is happening elsewhere.


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## vandit (Dec 14, 2007)

Its a fact that progress has been made by guj. in lst 5 yrs undr the modi regime...The std of living has increasd dramatically...I thnk modi can win purely on the basis of dev. Its the congress who is fuelling communalism and making modi its scapegoat by speculating in the media and reinstilling intolerance in muslims by reminding abt godhra kaand....Majority of the people in guj. had 4gotten abt that incident..And mind u that wasnt initiatd by modi either...
So hats off to narendra modi and bjp...May u continue on ur road to prosperity...

.Talkin abt tehelka...Just see the dates on whch the videos had been shot...They r way bck in '98-'99...And when did this whole issue come up..? Just before the elections in 2002...Now Wht does tht mean? If they really wntd to expose them they could have done it much earlier...
And in guj. The chritians,parsis,jains,buddhists are living peacefully...Even the condition  of muslims isnt as bad as the media speculates..


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## ssdivisiongermany1933 (Dec 14, 2007)

ha ha coming to zakir naik crap ........ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There is nothing prohibiting Idol worship anything ..It talks of oneness of God //
no mention of idol worship 

Read vedas completely and understand , Varun ,agni and Indra are worshipped , don't give craps from the zakir naik crap  ,.I have my self read vedas , by the way from which veda u have taken the verses .

The hindu scriptures takes over complete things of life , whether its divinical or social life ,personal 

Hindus scriptures don't crap god as monopoly like abrahmic religion do which includes islam , christanity and judaism , the unrest on earth started when these monopolic faith appeared on earth


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## moshel (Dec 14, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> edit:
> *offtopic:*
> @moshel:u r jew!well are u kochini jew(those migrated from middle east to kerala before bc-700 afaik)?(from cochin?)Kochi got lotta jews before.now 99% migrated to Israel after its formation in 1960's afaik.still there is the old synagogues in Mattancherry and N.Parur Kerala and few kochini jews there.Infact many(majority) jews are here as syrian christians  after st.thomas converted jews  along with other people.hence they  are hybrids .
> lately i heard these kochini jews who are darker(w.r.t german jews) are facing discrimination in Israel



I am not a kochini jew. Kochini jews are actually Ashkanazis. while im a sephardic Jew...we are better known as Bene-Israelis (Sons of Israel).

just arnd 2000 yrs back from now some ppl left israel and landed on the coast of maharashtra. and got mixed up with the locals and even changed the surnames to be sounding more familiar as the locals. our surnames end with "kar" much like the maharashtrians.

and abt kochini jews. well they left india and went to israel in 60s or so. and they have set up a whole city in south of Israel in the Negev Desert where only kochini jews live. abt discrimination in Israel, i dont knw..



			
				ssdivisiongermany1933 said:
			
		

> Hindus scriptures don't crap god as monopoly like abrahmic religion do which includes islam , christanity and judaism , the unrest on earth started when these monopolic faith appeared on earth



watch ur words dude....learn to respect all religions. u have a different view of G-d and i have a different view of G-d...but that doesnt mean u use words like "crap god" when stating about my religion.

we are here to have a healthy discussion and as long as we are talking abt the people of any particular religion its ok. but such an act of attacking the basic ideology of any religion is not acceptable...

wat do u mean by "the unrest on earth started when these monopolic faith appeared on earth"

just to let u knw. Judaism is one of the first religions of the world. The Bible old testament which we follow begins with the creation of the world, the creatures, and Man and Woman.

the only other religion which i have heard has its books beginning from the "creation of the world" is Hinduism. but i am in no way going to argue with that abt who came first Hinduism or Judaism. becos there is no point in arguing abt it.

Everybody is right in their own way. and we should learn to respect other religions and try to be united as human beings.


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## viruses (Dec 15, 2007)

well if modi is allowed to rule india will not become a hindu state but brahim state like in the past.sati and untouchability will become the norm of the day-lol


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## kumarmohit (Dec 15, 2007)

^^I assume that you think it is already happening in Gujarat, he has been ruling there for like what, 7-8 years for now, never heard of things like that happening, and just FYI we still have somethings called courts and constitution.

I do not know abt Modi but if Arjun Singh becomes PM, the general cat ppl are sure gonna be chucked out of the country. Or worst still, treated like slaves.


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## nix (Dec 15, 2007)

> damnthenet said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## planetcall (Dec 15, 2007)

*img115.exs.cx/img115/5941/offtopic8ys.gif
I have read this thread almost daily but refrained from giving any comment as I am tired of explaining facts to people who always bang the dead horse....no matter what. But, the amount of research being done and the quality of posts in this thread has compelled me to thank a few guys who have still kept the torch in their hands, demystifying any malicious attempt with knowledge.
Nice post guys. Those being applauded, know whom I intend to.


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## vandit (Dec 15, 2007)

Hey guys plz stick to bjp - congress,modi,funda. Rights,progress etc.
 and not idol wrshp,vedas,quran,god etc. if they r out of topic..Plz..


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## ssdivisiongermany1933 (Dec 15, 2007)

exactly its BJP ,modi , congress ,not vedas ,god etc


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## apacheman (Dec 16, 2007)

Modi govt. in a debt of 94000 crores of which just 31 percent has been spent on social services and so-called development.
*www.thehindu.com/2007/12/15/stories/2007121562651600.htm

Modi's false claims n propaganda on the development.
*in.news.yahoo.com/071215/139/6ohoz.html

Anti-Modi ads appear just before second phase of polls
*in.news.yahoo.com/071216/211/6ohvu.html

Modi communalising every issue.
*www.thehindu.com/2007/12/15/stories/2007121562691600.htm


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## kumarmohit (Dec 16, 2007)

apacheman said:
			
		

> Modi govt. in a debt of 94000 crores of which just 31 percent has been spent on social services and so-called development.
> *www.thehindu.com/2007/12/15/stories/2007121562651600.htm



P. Chidambaram FYI is a Congress leader, these things (accusations) are natural at election time. 



> Modi's false claims n propaganda on the development.
> *in.news.yahoo.com/071215/139/6ohoz.html



Same and similar things are happening in West Bengal (Nandigram) and a numebr of congress ruled states. I would really appreciate if you criticise dear Budhadeb first.



> Anti-Modi ads appear just before second phase of polls
> *in.news.yahoo.com/071216/211/6ohvu.html


these are ads, not facts.



> Modi communalising every issue.
> *www.thehindu.com/2007/12/15/stories/2007121562691600.htm



For heaven's sake in the first one it was Chidambaram  now it is Moily. These are not facts, they are accusations leveled by Congress leaders!


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## apacheman (Dec 17, 2007)

kumarmohit said:
			
		

> P. Chidambaram FYI is a Congress leader, these things (accusations) are natural at election time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



sounds like Modi is his relative....lol


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## kumarmohit (Dec 17, 2007)

Hey Hey dude, why get personal?

Even, I can get personal but my policy is that If I cant debate on the facts, I do not even bother?

Maintain the decency of forum, ppl are free to have your own opinion but there is absolutely no need to get personal.


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## mudsir (Dec 17, 2007)

islam is the truth

quran is the last revelation of god 

jesus is a muslim

those who are not muslims and dont believe in one god and do idol worship or think that god has a son will go to hell where they will dwell forever

so guys read more about islam ,so that we all will be saved from the fire of hell

may peace be upon all of you


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## kumarmohit (Dec 17, 2007)

mudsir said:
			
		

> islam is the truth



What is truth, how do you define truth?



> quran is the last revelation of god



Then can you oblige me by telling which is the first one?



> jesus is a muslim



Can you get a cetificate from the pope about this?



> those who are not muslims and dont believe in one god and do idol worship or think that god has a son will go to hell where they will dwell forever



Please provide me the address or the coordinates in universe, none of the astronauts have seen it. I would like to get a booking there



> so guys read more about islam ,so that we all will be saved from the fire of hell



Again if you can provide me the address of hell, i would like to ring the fire brigade, after all , hell is on fire.

Jokes apart dude, We would really appreciate if you have something to say about the topic we are discussing here. 



> may peace be upon all of you



Peace! Ah!


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## mediator (Dec 17, 2007)

mudsir said:
			
		

> islam is the truth
> 
> quran is the last revelation of god
> 
> ...


 We can all see how much peace ISLAM is giving to the world! Earlier I used to think that all are peaceful religion. But on learning more bt it I understood that there are exceptions and source itself tells about infidels, various illogical preachings etc. Therefore, I guess most of em are already dwelling in their own hell of ignorance and world of violence. So surely I dont want to read more about it & get myself circumsized for some absurd reasons or rejoice after slaughtering an infidel in broad day light! BTW, those who have read, I guess, are already facing the fire of hell! 

Can we get back to the topic eh?


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## mudsir (Dec 17, 2007)

cant say much about the topic

reminds me of the discussion in germany amongst christians ,whether they should support the terrorist christian hitler or not

and we know that majority of christians in germany supported terrorism and killed innocent jews and other minorities by electing hitler to power

so presently hindus want to support the terrorist modi then they can go ahead ,ultimately they are going to loose by supporting terrorism

also modi being a human being ,a bad one nevertheless , has to die and will answer for the sins he committed ,foremost amongst which is associating partners with GOD when HE HAS NO PARTNERS AND IS ONLY ONE

peace be upon all of you

you dont have to get circumcised to be a muslim

you just have to give up worship of more than one god ,of idol worship ,and of thinking that GOD is like humans and animals having families ,wives and sons and daughters


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## mediator (Dec 17, 2007)

> so presently hindus want to support the terrorist modi then they can go ahead ,ultimately they are going to loose by supporting terrorism


Like ISLAM is going to loose for supporting terrorism against infidels?



> you just have to give up worship of more than one god ,of idol worship ,and of thinking that GOD is humans and animals having families ,wives and sons and daughters


Normally I can interpret the English of even the weakest of the noobies! But mind improving ur newly learnt language? Please concentrate on quran or speak something sensible ON TOPIC! Surely, no one wants TROLLS in here.


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## kumarmohit (Dec 17, 2007)

@ mudsir

In that case becomig a hindu is way easier,  you do not have to give up worshipping anyone, all you have to do is start respecting life and believing in the fact that all religions are equal. 

As for hitler and terrorism and jews I would like to know you comments about the PLO and why is it that Israel is in a continuous state of war.

That is if you want to troll on the forum! which it seems you have already admitted when you said that you cant say much about the topic!


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## mudsir (Dec 17, 2007)

About the topic, narendra modi is going to be cm again, as in the past also hindus have supported terrorists, like they supported him after the genocide in gujarat and also made Rajiv Gandhi pm,after the sikh carnage by hindu terrorists.

christian terrorists also did support hitler and elected him to commit the carnage of jews.


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## kumarmohit (Dec 17, 2007)

Oh and remind me what is going on in Kosovo, What is the PLO doing, what is the Taliban doing and much nearer home what is going on in Kashmir?


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## mudsir (Dec 17, 2007)

forgot to mention about the present terrorist bush who was made the president after killing hundreds of thousands of innocent human beings in afghanistan and iraq

way to go christian terrorists in america who supported this greatest terrorist

modi is like a child in front of him

remember there is no difference between a terrorist and terrorism supporter


like there is no difference between dara singh the hindu terrorist who killed innocent christians and people who support his barbaric act .


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## kumarmohit (Dec 17, 2007)

I guess you have nothing creative to contribute to the thread except saying that Hindus and Christians are terrorists.


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## Rahim (Dec 17, 2007)

What is this mudsir talking about? Certainly needs some clarity in the top floor.
@topic: this thread will have a lot of posts but will never come to a conclusion.


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## apacheman (Dec 17, 2007)

kumarmohit said:
			
		

> Hey Hey dude, why get personal?


Personal..? its you who are takin it personally.... why do u feel offended if he isn't frm ur kith or kin....?


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## mudsir (Dec 17, 2007)

bro no one wants a murderer in the family


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## Rahim (Dec 17, 2007)

What family?


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## praka123 (Dec 17, 2007)

it seems Hindus are second target only for the worlds peace loving religion.Christians are targeted!but the sad truth west is atheist and few protestents are there calling themselves as Christian.Bush never afaik is a practising Christian!and is most of the Chrisitians!why do u spit the learning from the book and madrassas here?they are illiterates who are making u and most moslems as hardcorers.

{....Edited,I dont want to hurt anyone  }


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## mudsir (Dec 17, 2007)

> why so much intolerability?Why cant u ppl respect other religions



then the guy says 





> Islamism is worse than Narzis



in short he doesnt want to respect islam and he is the one who is intolerable.

and then says that christian terrorists who killed 6 million innocent jews + other minorities are better than terrorists who call themselves muslims.

even if all the terrorist acts committed by those who call themselves muslims are added up it wouldnt come close to the terrorism done by christian terrorists in germany and presently by bush and his gang of christian terrorists



> that is I believe in trinity(father,son and holyspirit) it is interesting to know that Hindus too believe Brahma Vishnu Maheswara.



who said hindus were right in believing in three gods?

do not say trinity ,for your god is one god

and the lies in the last paragraph are not worth even quoting.

i read the posts by praka

in short what the guy is telling is its ok that modi did the genocide of muslims but christians must be spared .

how selfish can you get??

i being a muslim stand up to rights of human beings and support the victims of godhra massacre ,of gujarat riots, mumbai riots ,sikh carnage,and of the various christians priests and nuns who were killed .

may peace be upon all of you


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## nix (Dec 17, 2007)

you cant just make peace by saying "may peace be upon all of you".

i just dont get it. why engage in flaming others and then you end all your posts with that line...doesnt make sense.


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## ssdivisiongermany1933 (Dec 17, 2007)

The Pagan world was very much  peaceful ,the forcing of Monotheistic concept has led to end of many civilizations .

but don't loose path , I created just for Modi ,Gujarat, BJP ,sonia gandhi and congress . but it has went above that .


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## apacheman (Dec 17, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> Christians are targeted!



Christians are targeted?!!? humbug...they are the ones who Target!



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> do u thing ur book is the last answer?NO moron,no NOT  it is a wise warlord who mixed pagan moon god called allah and mixed old testment and interpret things in his favour=get the reality!.



Quote one verse from the Quran that is false and the Quran will be proved wrong.
and according to this praka's claims, it seems a warlord mixed Old Testament with something and iterpreted things. haha. How can anyone just mix the things which were correct and omit that which was wrong? that too an iliterate?!! The Old Testament itselfs contains umpteen errors, how can anyone copy the correct stuff an delete the wrong ones? Its time YOU get the reality bro.




			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> BTW,I believe God came to earth as a human and paid for us sinners by his blood and arised from the dead and hails to heaven as human,that is I believe in trinity(father,son and holyspirit)



The fact is that the word "Trinity" does not exist in the bible. Instead its mentioned in the Quran.
The word trinity was decribed as a fabrication and concoction in the Revised Standard Version authorised by the 'Doctors of Divinty' in Christianity. Strange but true.


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## praka123 (Dec 17, 2007)

what ever!I know that our teachings are more peaceful and tolerable than you Islamists!


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## apacheman (Dec 17, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> why so much intolerability?Why cant u ppl respect other religions


haha, look Mr. Tolerable speak below....



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> what ever!I know that our teachings are more peaceful and tolerable than you Islamists!


well, thats how a loser speaks, so sad. c'mon, be a sport!


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## mudsir (Dec 17, 2007)

> I know that our teachings are more peaceful and tolerable than you Islamists!



thanks for your subjective opinion which is proven to be false again and again throughout history.

hitler and other christian terrorists who supported him(the majority in germany) are very peaceful and tolerable .

bush and his supporters of terrorism who have more than a few lakhs  of innocent people are definitely peaceful.

keep up the peace guys ,you are doing a great job.

are you guys using WMD (Weapons of Mass Deception)


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## moshel (Dec 17, 2007)

ssdivisiongermany1933 said:
			
		

> The Pagan world was very much  peaceful ,the forcing of Monotheistic concept has led to end of many civilizations .



watch your words dude..cos when u say the word "monotheistic" u r meaning Islam, Christianity and Judaism.... just give me name of one civilization which was ended by Jews??.

as per my personal knowledge its only Hinduism and Judaism who *DO NOT* have history of forced conversions....
moreover i wud like to add that jews were ruled by different rulers for 2000 years. i.e. from 70 B.C.E. (when Israel fell to the romans) to 1948 (when Israel got independence from the British)



			
				ssdivisiongermany1933 said:
			
		

> but don't loose path , I created just for Modi ,Gujarat, BJP ,sonia gandhi and congress . but it has went above that .



yeah i agree.... but even ur doing the same thing...ur first sentence proves that.....


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## mudsir (Dec 17, 2007)

> Originally Posted by ssdivisiongermany1933
> The Pagan world was very much peaceful ,the forcing of Monotheistic concept has led to end of many civilizations




the first man and women sent by God to this world were monotheists

then idol worship,superstitions and paganism started .

later God send Prophets with monotheism

still people even started worshipping Prophets like how christians worship Jesus(peace be upon him).

and dont include christianity amongst the monotheistic religions because it believes in three gods.


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## karnivore (Dec 17, 2007)

This thread is worse than municipal garbage dump. It stinks of misinformation, half-truths and lousy propaganda.


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## Shiv Patel (Dec 17, 2007)

We the people of Gujarat like Narendra Modi. We want strong leader. People from out side Gujarat came see the difference and than coment. Some English media have bios  so that


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## kumarmohit (Dec 18, 2007)

I think that all of us  should just STFU and wait till the polling results come out.


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## mediator (Dec 18, 2007)

mudsir said:
			
		

> i being a muslim stand up to rights of human beings and support the victims of godhra massacre ,of gujarat riots, mumbai riots ,sikh carnage,and of the various christians priests and nuns who were killed .


 Surely then u must be standing tall with vicims of 9/11, victims of talib terrorism, destructions of 10000s of temples at the hand of babur,aurangzeb,mughals etc, with ur hindu ancestors who were forcibly converted by Mughals to ISLAM, Britons and Americans who were killed by ISLAMIC extremists who couldn't get sharia'h implemented and all the natives/infidels of the world whose lands were touched by "believers", who stayed there talking peace all the time but multiplied and when the numbers got sufficient started demanding sharia'h and on not getting it cried that  "Injustice has been done to them and hence started creating terrorism on those natives/infidels!

Shall peace be upon them? World didn't witness so!

Quran does say to live according to nature and simple. But it seems all are born infidels and a little man-made architecture (circumsicion) makes u believers. So natural! What a tragedy and the irony of it!! I guess even a child cannot have an iota of peace when he's born chained to that 'peaceful' religion. 

@mudsir and @apacheman......Please search FIGHTCLUB if u just wanna TROLL. I guarantee u'll find more posts to reply and entertain me on. Also, I think there is still some scope before this thread gets locked, if u r done posting congress banners, ads & prepoll FUDS confusing it hilariously with facts!

I understand you couldn't get it since childhood but still, may peace be upon all of you "believers"!


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## praka123 (Dec 18, 2007)

*Islamism and fundamentalist Muslims-leave the teachings of "the book"*

Islamists(not all Muslims) are the biggest menace world is facing now.Jesus is never a prophet.He is the living God.warlord made a book with literates of that time.he is so peace loving that he married and intercoursed _anyone_.muhammad married a older lady,then a child of 6 yr old .wow!what a gr8 man?Infact everyone in India except North East knows what you followers of Islam wants to do.to implement shariath.shariath itself is a violent interpretation of Manusmruthi.shariath is the law of dog,not god.

it is,the likes of mahomet & co to make things wrote in a way so that mahomet will get attention!still these so called monotheists are bending down to mecca's temple of 3 pagan goddesses(now ka'ba).Christian terrorists are a new word i have found!hehe!Do u think your policy of "behead those who says islam is intolerable" works every time?overbreeding works?watch it out!

It is the Muslim warlords like aurangazeb,Mohammed Gori,Tipu,Hyder ali etc who have done the biggest slaughter in India of Hindus and Syrian Christians including destruction of temples et al.

I believe when "teaching from the book" stopped,madrassa's stopped,we,in India can get peace.with the teachings on full force few muslim can remain patriotic to India.Muslims are,waiting for the so called "universal world of Islam" where church and state are Islam,moulvis and other religious leaders leading these illiterate Muslims to be living like on 7th century barbarians on 21st century!

Islam is not tolerant to any religion,even to shia's,sufi's etc.Islamists are the worlds biggest menace.try to live as an atheist Muslim bro!it will help prevailing peace.*I have many friends who are communists and are calling themselves as sufis or atheists,but forced to be called muslims.the second they say they are not believing in mohammed prophet's wondorfoool story,they will be killed.so they have to..*

Infact why should you be sticking on Islam?this religion from its past 1400+ years told us that it is here to kill non-muslim people in the name of "islamic god".
North India is destructed by islamists rulers and people by past 1000+ years.
Islamism is an addiction where,peace loving fellow hindu,christian are to be slaughtered to have "peace be upon him" 

I appeal all educated muslims to keep away from this religion.be a Christian or Jew,but not a terrorist and killer by following islam.

what these islamists cant see(blind?) is that you,the islamists warlords are those who slaughtered and looted,raped every victims of other religion.

even i read that the islam after mohammed was having wars and journeys to europe esp spain and from their they loots wealth kills men and...guess what..takes women as warbooties and enjoy the fair white women!

Do you think bush is wrong?he did his best to stop islamism from spreading!
now people in west esp in us and many european countries knows what Islam is!it is Nazism with more wilderness!.

Osama bin laden is one example of how islam teaching especially saudi wahabbism can take toll of "non-muslims".I have seen islamists respecting bin laden!wtf?


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## mudsir (Dec 18, 2007)

> Originally quoted by Praka123(aka troll)
> Islamists(not all Muslims) are the biggest menace world is facing now.


hindus ,muslims ,even if we add up all the innocent people that they have killed will not come even close to one instance of christian barbarism in germany where christian terrorists, who were in a majority,killed 60000000 jews (yes the zeroes dont seem to end)

Forgot to mention another christian love which was spread in world war.

*christian terrorists were so inhumane that they didnt flinch an eye before dropping an atomic bomb on hiroshima and nagasaki. those people are still suffering due to this christian terrorism aka love.,believe me even modi would think twice if he got a chance to put an atomic bomb on christians or muslims ,but these terrorists who are christians were so sick that they bombed whole island killing all the humans and animals as well as plants out there.
only christians can do such a thing,after all they are the ones spreading love*



> Originally quoted by Praka123(aka troll)
> Jesus is never a prophet.


jesus(peace be upon him) was a prophet of god. he cant be god since he is a human and ate and slept and in fact prayed to god!



> Originally quoted by Praka123(aka troll)
> warlord made a book with literates of that time.


he is no warlord ,but the last and final Prophet of God(may peace be upon him).    In fact when he spoke of one god ,the pagans over there who worshipped idols tortured him for 13 years..yet he never retaliated. later after going to madinah he did a treaty with the makkans.but the pagan makkans broke the treaty and committed acts of terrorism against muslims ,hence muslims retaliated. Sometimes force has to be used for peace to prevail.
like how in mahabharatha krishna advices arjuna to kill his own cousins so that peace prevails.hence this was also a fight against the liars who broke the treaty. also when the muslims fought they were some guidelines given by the prophet such as do not kill women and children,do not kill old people ,do not destroy agriculture and trees and forests etc.
these extremes in fighting where trees,forests ,old people,women ,children etc are destroyed en mass can only be committed by christian terrorists like in hiroshima and in crasudes and in germany. you see they love to spread their love.



> Originally quoted by Praka123(aka troll)
> child of 6 yr old


 SHE(peace be upon her) was 9 years old at the time of marriage.
anyway age does not  matter as islam believes that whenever a man or a women reaches puberty he is eligible for marriage.
this way he can satisfy his desires in a lawful way and does not have to do it in illegal ways such as like christians in america where one rape occurs every 32 seconds, where pornography is a major industry, where the church is conducting sodomite marriages. such moral deprivation and lowness can only be seen in christians especially the religious ones, "our love spreading priests" who taking the vow of chastity go and have sex with babies, and children(who have not reached age of puberty and without marriage).



> Originally quoted by Praka123(aka troll)
> these so called monotheists are bending down to mecca's temple of 3 pagan goddesses(now ka'ba).


such a huge lie..

Kaaba is just the direction to offer prayers. no muslim worships the kaaba. people even stand on top of kaaba, no idol worshipper will stand on the idol he worships. the kaaba or Jesus cannot benefit us or harm us. only God  can .
hence we worship only one God.



> Originally quoted by Praka123(aka troll)
> Islam is not tolerant to any religion


it seems that you are the one who is not tolerable to other religions such as islam and want to even spread lies about islam and muslims.
my hindu friends beware. this is a standard technique used by christians ,to make fight between muslims and hindus so that they can convert more hindus to christianity.
in fact they use money ,education and hospitals to convert people and many hindus have fallen into the trap of these christian terrorists.

they even sit outside temples to convert hindus as was seen in Andhra Pradesh.
they create doubts in the mind of people as to why women are not allowed in this temple or that so they can get a few more converts and more foriegn funds.
i myself studied in a hindu school, and they was absolute freedom of religion and tolerability .but my cousin who studied in convent says that they laugh at him when he prays to Allah(swt) and they also laugh when hindus pray to their gods..only when they pray to jesus(who is a prophet ,not god) do they get chocolates  and other goodies...what cheap tactics used to convert people to falsehood and lies.


> Originally quoted by Praka123(aka troll)
> Do you think bush is wrong?he did his best to stop islamism from spreading!


why shold these christian terrorists stop the spread of any religion.
that shows their intolerant attitude to other religions.
they wanted to even stop the spread of jews ,and how did they do it., by killing 6 million jews.
even in india millions of dollars are being poured to baptise hindus so that they worship their sweet little baby jesus instead of worshipping cows.
both cow and jesus are not the creators of this world and we must worship only the creator.
now they want to kill lakhs of innocent people in afghanistan and iraq .what they are doing is terrorism. these christian terrorists are the greatest danger and evil that the world faces today.



> Originally quoted by Praka123(aka troll)
> now people in west esp in us and many european countries knows what Islam is!


yeah ,right. today islam is the fastest growing religion in the west and many people are realising the falsehood and intolerability of christianity and are reverting back to islam.

truth has come and falsehood has vanished.



> Originally quoted by Praka123(aka troll)
> few muslim can remain patriotic to India.


muslims definitely are patriotic to India. we are not christians . we fought in large numbers in the freedom fight against christian terrorists who were creating terror in india. christian misssionaries were in full force under christian empire in india and were successful in converting a large number of hindus.

also in Jalianwala bagh tragedy these christian terrorists again spread their love and killed thousands of innocent hindus and muslims.

even in kargil 350 muslims died .thats more than 20% of dead indians who sacrificed their lives for their country.
how many christians died in kargil or in the freedom struggle???????

christians have now become proficient in spreading lies ,terror ,deception so that they can get a few more converts.

May Peace Be Upon All Of You


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## damnthenet (Dec 18, 2007)

mudsir said:
			
		

> hindus ,muslims ,even if we add up all the innocent people that they have killed will not come even close to one instance of christian barbarism in germany where christian terrorists, who were in a majority,killed 60000000 jews (yes the zeroes dont seem to end)
> 
> Forgot to mention another christian love which was spread in world war.
> 
> ...



@musdir : Please write only the facts.

There's *ONE BIG DIFFERENCE* betweeen those inhuman acts described by you (i.e. by so called (some) Christians) of that day and ones committed by (some) Muslims of this day.
*NO ONE* AMONG THOSE WHO YOU CLAIM AS *CHRISTIAN TERRORISTS* (Hitler, American and  British leaders) *DID IT IN THE NAME OF CHRISTIANITY*. IT WAS A MERE FIGHT TO ATTAIN THE MOST EVIL THING CALLED *'POWER'* 
*NO ONE* DID IT IN THE NAME OF 'A *SO CALLED HOLY WAR (JIHAD)*' AS TERMED BY WELL KNOWN MUSILMS FOR THEIR inhuman ACTIVITIES.


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## mudsir (Dec 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted by damnthenet
> *NO ONE* AMONG THOSE WHO YOU CLAIM AS *CHRISTIAN TERRORISTS* (Hitler, American and  British leaders) *DID IT IN THE NAME OF CHRISTIANITY*.



another deception 

Hitler clearly killed the jews supporting evidence from the bible .

if someone doesnt know the history of hitler and other christian terrorists ,i advise them to read about these "true christians" as they called themselves.

Mr Bush the latest terrorist who is killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people ,is doing this definitely in the name of christianity.

As Mr terrorist said that god directly speaks to him and commanded him to go on a murdering spree.
in fact before killing innocent people Mr Bush had a meeting with many christian priests ,who adviced him to go ahead with the terrorism so that christianity spreads to these lands...

first you kill people ,terrorise them, devastate their lands ,make them hungry ,let diseases spread.......................,

then bring in the christian misssionaries aka terrorists with food and medicines which are given only to those who become christians.

this is the agaenda of christian terrorists ,which is being applied even in India.


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## damnthenet (Dec 18, 2007)

mudsir said:
			
		

> another deception
> 
> Hitler clearly killed the jews supporting evidence from the bible .
> 
> Mr Bush the latest terrorist who is killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people ,is doing this definitely in the name of christianity.


I'm stunned by the level of imagination that's hidden in you! LOL.
Just have a look here:
Know what BUSH is doing
*www.renewamerica.us/columns/kovach/070715
HE'S SO OBSESSED WITH HINDUISM RATHER THAN CHRISTIANITY. HE'S VIOLATING THE GOD'S COMMANDMENT TO WORSHIP ONLY HIM.
HOW CAN YOU CALL HIM CHRISTIAN????


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## mudsir (Dec 18, 2007)

He  calls himself a *christian *and says *god* spoke to him .​ 
*www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1586978,00.html

*www.irregulartimes.com/godspeaksthroughme.html

*atheism.about.com/b/2004/07/19/bush-god-speaks-through-me.htm

*www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/magazine/17BUSH.html

Bartlett, a 53-year-old columnist and self-described libertarian Republican who has lately been a champion for traditional Republicans concerned about Bush's governance, went on to say:''He truly believes *he's on a mission from God. Absolute faith like that* overwhelms a need for analysis. The whole thing about *faith *is to believe things for which there is no empirical evidence.'' Bartlett paused, then said, ''But you can't run the world on faith.'' 




just another wmd (weapons of mass deception ) being used by christian terrorists.

*www.irregularnews.com/godspeaksbush.jpg

* hitler* said in his book *Mein Kampf*:


      "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator:* by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."*


Hitler raised as Catholic   he went to a monastery school and, interestingly, walked everyday   past a stone arch which was carved the monastery's coat of arms   which included a swastika. As a young boy, Hitler's most ardent   goal was to become a priest. *Much of his philosophy came from   the Bible*, and more influentially, from the Christian Social   movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably,   resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.) Many   have questioned Hitler's stand on Christianity. Although he fought   against certain Catholic priests who opposed him for political   reasons, his belief in God and country never left him. Many Christians   throughout history have opposed Christian priests for various   reasons; this does not necessarily make one against one's own   Christian beliefs. *Nor did the Vatican's Pope & bishops ever   disown him; in fact they blessed him!* As evidence to his claimed   Christianity, he said:"*My feelings as a Christian *points me to my Lord and     Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness,     surrounded by a few followers,* recognized these Jews for what     they were and summoned men to fight against them *and who, God's     truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless     love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which     tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the     scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders.     *How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.*     To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize     more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this     that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. *As a Christian     I have* no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the     duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is     anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it     is the distress that daily grows. *For as a Christian *I have also     a duty to my own people.
     -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes,     ed. _The Speeches of Adolf Hitler_, April 1922-August 1939,     Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)​*Hitler's anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education.* Christian Austria      and Germany in his time took for granted the belief that Jews held an inferior      status to Aryan Christians. *Jewish hatred did not spring from Hitler, it came      from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout      Germany for hundreds of years. *The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself,      held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, "On      the Jews and their Lies," Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred      in Protestant Germany up until World War II. Hitler expressed a great admiration      for Martin Luther.

see some good images of our christian terrorist here 
*nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

sample 
*nobeliefs.com/images/hitler%26bishop.gif



*Hitler wth Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio             in Berlin, 1935

*nobeliefs.com/images/Hitler-with-Muller.jpg
*

*www.evilbible.com/images/hitler_and_pope.jpg[SIZE=-1]*Hitler greets Muller the           "Bishop of the Reich" and Abbot Schachleitner*



[/SIZE] *nobeliefs.com/images/FriedrichCoch.jpg
[SIZE=-1]

[/SIZE]*National Bishop Friedrich Coch giving a Hitler greeting         in Dresden, 10 December 1933


*nobeliefs.com/images/Hitler%26Church.jpg
*[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]*Church & State*
          [SIZE=-1]*Hitler* in front of "*Church* of our Lady"           in Nuremberg, Sept. 1934. Photographer, Heinrich Hoffmann.[/SIZE]         

*www.evilbible.com/images/hitler_and_pope.jpg


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## praka123 (Dec 18, 2007)

@damnthenet:the teachings of Islam is so hardcore that they thinks every human by first asking which religion they are!Islam is fearing Christianity!thats what i cang get from mudsir's whining!.Mudsir is saying Christ is prophet!I know that I cannot have a talk with a hardcore islamist.still,Christ is God.yes,the God born as a man.koran is just a war and violence supporting book.No one can live with Islam(anti-christ),

If islam is so tolerant,can we have the option to worship our religions be it Hinduism,Buddhism or Christianity in Saudi and middle-east?also why are we forced to bend and show our arses to pagan moon god's direction?(isnt it Durga(women godess) and two other idols which where there in Kaba? 
 asking:where is ur tolerance?u populate like guinea pigs in Europe,Asia esp India and we idolters and others are not preventing you barbarian Gorian people!tell me why do native middle east Christians(eastern rite including mine too-syrian christians) have to pay Jizyah as they are treated as 2nd hand citizens(Dhimmi's) ?

why Islam and prophet said that kill all kaafirs when you conquer any country if not they convert to islam?why so called prophet mohammad permitted islamic barbarians to rape war victims?why muslims over breeding?why muslims conduct terror on every part of world?

*THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CHRISTIAN TERRORISM* if such christian terrorism is there,do u believe USA will spare u barbarians from middle-east/US will bomb years earlier itself  .Christians majority are tolerable and in west they are Atheists and non-pracitising.many churches are converted into shopping malls  this is reality.exploiting this chances Islamists are conquering europe by overbreeding and converting.

and regarding tolerance what happened nuvvu Hyderabadu?the swash bucklers there wants to kill Taslima!but when u browse for Jesus the God,we can see everything which a real Xian cannot tolerate  tell me?!.Christians are those protestants missionaries who are working in north India who converts by luring money and education.other Christians like Catholics,CSI,CNI etc are not at all caring you people.Islam is the anti-christ.
Islamists cannot be tolerant.the madrassas teaches this.
reg JEWS,koran states that every JEWS,Christians should not be spared!force them to convert or predate them.

conclusion:
ISLAM is intolerant,narzist religion menace which Indians elsewhere in the world poor people suffers from  .
@mudasir:I know this!i am staying with muslims thankfully they are Malabar Mappillas(Moplah) who are converted in 7th century itself native malayalees who are much tolerant and many left the religion though calling themselves Muslims.Moplahs knows the meance of Islam very well.they dont majority force their belief on others.while the north indian muslims are the intolerant ones,esp hyderbad dhakkani's.


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## mudsir (Dec 18, 2007)

*THE LEADERS IN TERRORISM ARE CHRISTIAN TERRORISTS *

they are the true barbarians believing that god gave birth  (delivery,not caesarian section) to a son.

disgusting.


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## apacheman (Dec 18, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> koran is just a war and violence supporting book.


Quote one verse in context from the Quran which states to kill anyone. Instead Quran strictly prohibits muslims from killing anyone. Killing even one is equal to killing whole of humanity. And these so called Islamists who kill in the name of god are surely no muslims. By the way, Islamists is not the term to be used in this context, because they cannot be a part of Islam.



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> why so called prophet mohammad permitted islamic barbarians to rape war victims?


False Allegation. Quote any verse from the Quran or Sahih Hadith which states so. Its a real cheap stint from ur side.



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> *THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CHRISTIAN TERRORISM*


You are not aware of history, Christians are the one who have committed most of the heinious crimes in the world. Google "Christian terrorist" and you'll know. here's jus one link:
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism


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## karnivore (Dec 18, 2007)

o humanity.............. @*mudsir*, @*praka123*, @*mediator*, @*apacheman*

*i180.photobucket.com/albums/x31/trash609/Graphical_Man.gif


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## Rahim (Dec 18, 2007)

I support you karnivore.


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## ssdivisiongermany1933 (Dec 18, 2007)

christian  terrorism existed a long back ,when crusades where organized to capture holy city , killed lot of muslim and jews .though now its some where in eastern part of india ,

but not in Western countries ,both crusaders and jihadis were promised heaven but for capturing holy city , but they found themselves in hell ..


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## mediator (Dec 18, 2007)

> christian terrorists were so inhumane that they didnt flinch an eye before dropping an atomic bomb on hiroshima and nagasaki. those people are still suffering due to this christian terrorism aka love.,believe me even modi would think twice if he got a chance to put an atomic bomb on christians or muslims ,but these terrorists who are christians were so sick that they bombed whole island killing all the humans and animals as well as plants out there.
> only christians can do such a thing,after all they are the ones spreading love


 U need to learn the definition of 'religious' terrorists!



> SHE(peace be upon her) was 9 years old at the time of marriage.
> anyway age does not matter as *islam believes that whenever a man or a women reaches puberty he is eligible for marriage.*
> this way he can satisfy his desires in a lawful way and does not have to do it in illegal ways such as like christians in america where one rape occurs every 32 seconds, where pornography is a major industry, where the church is conducting sodomite marriages. such moral deprivation and lowness can only be seen in christians especially the religious ones, "our love spreading priests" who taking the vow of chastity go and have sex with babies, and children(who have not reached age of puberty and without marriage).


 And blind believers leave no difference between them and early cavemen by following such stewpid logic! So after all the sagely  preachings in THE HOLY BOOK, the fabricator took precautionary measures and marked puberty as the age when man "can satisfy his desires in a lawful way"? Pathetic!



> Kaaba is just the direction to offer prayers. no muslim worships the kaaba. people even stand on top of kaaba, no idol worshipper will stand on the idol he worships. the kaaba or Jesus cannot benefit us or harm us. only God can .
> hence we worship only one God.


 And idol Satan and stone him?



> muslims definitely are patriotic to India. we are not christians . we fought in large numbers in the freedom fight against christian terrorists who were creating terror in india. christian misssionaries were in full force under christian empire in india and were successful in converting a large number of hindus.


 First u talk patriotism and then religion? Get a hold of ur senses. Mughals terrored in large numbers and destroyed 10000s of temples and we see madrassas recruiting terrorists!



> even in kargil 350 muslims died .thats more than 20% of dead indians who sacrificed their lives for their country.
> how many christians died in kargil or in the freedom struggle???????


 Again a pathetic attempt in distinguishing casualties based on religion!

 Don't ruin it by starting crusades here or else karnivore might come banging his head again! On topic...can we?


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## ssdivisiongermany1933 (Dec 18, 2007)

nazi hatred for jews was not based on faith ,Hitler viewed that Jews were responsible for making germany a mess after world war -I , and He also never think judaism as a faith , a mere low race considering his superior Aryan race


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## praka123 (Dec 18, 2007)

Islamists lacks Ubuntu(humanity towards others)  thats all.In India,laws are made after pleading to Muslim clergy's  for eg: Unifrom Civil Code!.


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## apacheman (Dec 19, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> Islamists lacks Ubuntu(humanity towards others)  thats all.In India,laws are made after pleading to Muslim clergy's  for eg: Unifrom Civil Code!.


Uniform Civil Code canot be implemented in India even among Hindus itself, because hinduism contains a plethora of castes n sects differences, first sort that out n den try coming to the muslim clan..


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## mudsir (Dec 19, 2007)

ssdivisiongermany1933 said:
			
		

> nazi hatred for jews was not based on faith ,Hitler viewed that Jews were responsible for making germany a mess after world war -I , and He also never think judaism as a faith , a mere low race considering his superior Aryan race




inspite of giving quotes from hitlers book mein kempf and his speeches where he himself says that he is acting based on faith and bible and what christianity taught him ,  if you wish to believe otherwise ,its your choice.


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## kumarmohit (Dec 19, 2007)

apacheman said:
			
		

> Uniform Civil Code canot be implemented in India even among Hindus itself, because hinduism contains a plethora of castes n sects differences, first sort that out n den try coming to the muslim clan..



I think you are making a mistake here, UCC can be implemented. Why do you blame the Caste sytem when it has nothing to do here. Polygamy for example, is prohibited in all Hindus *regardless of caste*. Post 1955, the religious law is *not* applicable on Hindus. They are governed by laws made by parliament of India.

Just FYI, the all the Hindus are governed by:

1. The Hindu Marriage Act, 1955 (HMA)
2. The Hindu Minority and Guardianship Act, 1956 (HMGA)
3. The Hindu Adoption and Maintenance Act, 1956 (HAMA) 

Please do not talk about things you are ill informed of.


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## mudsir (Dec 19, 2007)

kumarmohit said:
			
		

> all the Hindus are governed by:
> 
> 1. The Hindu Marriage Act, 1955 (HMA)
> 2. The Hindu Minority and Guardianship Act, 1956 (HMGA)
> 3. The Hindu Adoption and Maintenance Act, 1956 (HAMA)


Many Hindu religious      personalities, according to their scriptures, had multiple wives. *King Dashrat*, the father      of Rama, had more than one wife. *Krishna* had several wives.(*GUESS THEY WERE NOT HINDUS AND WERE NOT GOVERNED BY THE ACTS WHICH SOME HUMANS MADE AND HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH HINDUISM*)

The report of the ‘Committee of The Status of      Woman in Islam’, published in 1975 mentions on page numbers 66 and 67 that the      percentage of polygamous marriages between the years 1951 and 1961 was 5.06% among the      Hindus and only 4.31% among the Muslims. According to Indian law only Muslim men are      permitted to have more than one wife. It is illegal for any non-Muslim in India to have      more than one wife. Despite it being illegal, Hindus have more multiple wives as compared      to Muslims. Earlier, there was no restriction even on Hindu men with respect to the number      of wives allowed. It was only in 1954, when the Hindu Marriage Act was passed that it      became illegal for a Hindu to have more than one wife. At present it is the Indian Law      that restricts a Hindu man from having more than one wife and not the Hindu scriptures.

There is *no       religious book* that instructs men to have only one wife. In none of the other religious      scriptures, whether it be the* Vedas, the Ramayan, the Mahabharat, the Geeta, the Talmud or      the Bible* does one find a restriction on the number of wives. According to* these      scriptures* one can marry as many as one wishes. It was only later, that the *Hindu priests      and the Christian Church* restricted the number of wives to one.


*SO MANY HINDUS CASTES WILL NOT AGREE TO MONOGAMY. 

* On topic..please?


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## mediator (Dec 19, 2007)

> Many Hindu religious personalities, according to their scriptures, had multiple wives. King Dashrat, the father of Rama, had more than one wife. Krishna had several wives.(GUESS THEY WERE NOT HINDUS AND WERE NOT GOVERNED BY THE ACTS WHICH SOME HUMANS MADE AND HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH HINDUISM)


 Hindu scriptures are completely silent over such issues! Its only in 'THE' holy book where u'll find 1 man can marry 4 women but not vice versa. So much for gender equality! What logic!

Only the modern laws prohibit polygamy and yes hinduism is the just the term given to people who followed GITA and vedic scriptures! Its not pathetic as THE PEACEFUL religion where u r explicitly told to follow the religion marked with contradictions of all sort! No where in vedic scriptures or GITA u'll find some phrase stating "follow hinduism","man can marry 4 women","slay the infidels", "spread hinduism". It gives u free will to think and not rulezz marked with compulsions!




> There is no religious book that instructs men to have only one wife. In none of the other religious scriptures, whether it be the Vedas, the Ramayan, the Mahabharat, the Geeta, the Talmud or the Bible does one find a restriction on the number of wives. According to these scriptures one can marry as many as one wishes. It was only later, that the Hindu priests and the Christian Church restricted the number of wives to one.
> 
> 
> SO MANY HINDUS CASTES WILL NOT AGREE TO MONOGAMY.


 Ur wrong once again! Do a little reading of ur own instead of following Zakir Naik's craps. I guess it was easy for the fabricator to create a new "peaceful" religion filled with a "little" wisdom from the ancient ones. Too bad he used his mind on it!! 


On topic..please?


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## kumarmohit (Dec 19, 2007)

@ Mudsir. 

What you are talking about is not going to hold any water in case of UCC today. Coz post the passing of law is the condition which matters in UCC. This is where only Muslims are legally allowed polygamy in India. There is no single caste in Hinduism where polygamy is universal organized practice.


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## ssdivisiongermany1933 (Dec 19, 2007)

Hinduism as a faith gives most freedom to its followers ,every aspects are of divinic and social life included in it ,which is not found in other faiths .


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## nix (Dec 23, 2007)

well, 

he won.. eat that all you critics...


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## ssdivisiongermany1933 (Dec 23, 2007)

jit gaya Modi , he's sardar of gujarat ..

BJp ki hai sarkar , Modi hai uske Sardar


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## blueshift (Dec 23, 2007)

mudsir said:
			
		

> Many Hindu religious      personalities, according to their scriptures, had multiple wives. *King Dashrat*, the father      of Rama, had more than one wife. *Krishna* had several wives....
> The report of the ‘Committee of The Status of      Woman in Islam’, published in 1975 mentions on page numbers 66 and 67 that the      percentage of polygamous marriages between the years 1951 and 1961 was 5.06% among the      Hindus and only 4.31% among the Muslims. According to Indian law ....
> blah blah blah



Copy pasted directly from Zakir Naik's ebook.


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## moshel (Dec 23, 2007)

Gujarat has spoken!!!!

narendra modi must be hated by all of India. But the people of Gujarat love him. WHich is proved after this gr8 victory.

"Modibhai Modibhai avya chhe, Dhoom Dhadaka Karya chhe,
Avya Avya Modibhai"

now its "JEET GAYA GUJARAT"


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## manishjha18 (Dec 23, 2007)

congress party acts like they are anti india
they hates hindus and wd go to any extent to serve others for vote-

remember-dara sing was given capital punishment but afzal was pardoned-
i think they have link with isi and cpi with china(kidding --but god knows}


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## praka123 (Dec 23, 2007)

alas modi(devil) made his hindutva ticket to buy votes!Gujarat is miserabled for future  I think the Muslims and Christians there,better shift out to somewhere in kashmir or UP!


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## moshel (Dec 24, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> alas modi(devil) made his hindutva ticket to buy votes!Gujarat is miserabled for future  I think the Muslims and Christians there,better shift out to somewhere in kashmir or UP!



Only time will tell!

Moreover, Modi didnt play the Hindutva card by himself. Sonia Gandhi instigated him to play it with her "Maut Ke Saudagar" and "hindu terrorists"...before that Modi was always asking for votes on the basis of development.

and btw dont u think that when modi has won with such a majority, the muslim and christian votes also must have gone to him.....(i cant say this with certainity but its just a thought)..

Well all i say is that finally peace will prevail in Gujarat and all religions will live peacefully for the next 5 years.


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## ssdivisiongermany1933 (Dec 24, 2007)

gujaratis have not allowed the italian mafia sonia to enter their land ....


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## praka123 (Dec 24, 2007)

...and allowed a fanatic instead!


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## mediator (Dec 24, 2007)

Yeah, amazing landslides hun? and a slap to the first family (?) which cant speak even any national language properly. So much for playing the communal card!


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## kumarmohit (Dec 24, 2007)

Now that he has won, I think, this thread should be put to rest because critics and criticism aside, the people with their vote wield the supreme power. If they want someone in power and someone in opposition, that is their right. 

And frankly population of Gujarat is not a bunch of morons, if they have chosen him, the positive reasons must have outweighed the negatives. Like it or not, people are not idiots and that is the reason we have a democracy in India.


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## karnivore (Dec 24, 2007)

> ..population of Gujarat is not a bunch of morons..


No person in right frame of mind would think that. Some of the great minds of India are from Gujrat. But....


> ...people are not idiots...


Am afraid, my friend, but "masses" are, and that is called "herding effect". Individually these people would be far more intelligent, but when in mass, they are usually vegetable. That why u have Hitler.

But i think, the development factor was the key, no matter what the commies and their bed-fellow congress say.


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## kumarmohit (Dec 24, 2007)

^ If masses had been idiots, democracy would ave been the worst form of government which is not. Need I remind you the poem:

I am the people, the mob, the crowd, the mass by Carl Sandburg

just to remind you

*www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15264


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## karnivore (Dec 24, 2007)

^^ No point arguing. Just read Democracy and its Critics by Robert Dahl and u would know what i mean.


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## ssdivisiongermany1933 (Dec 24, 2007)

the gujaratis did amazing to clear of pseudo-secular forces from Gujarat ...

and the Rajmata(godmother) sonia gandhi is now in a fix ... congress is dead entity in north india .throwed from Punjab , next it will be delhi


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## x3060 (Dec 25, 2007)

well modi won is it . . finally you all can stop fighting till the next election 

by the way , i found a quarrel for "hinduism " . . let me say again , it is not a religion , it is "a way of living". . 
get that straight in to head .

it does not say "you must pray to god " or anything , you are free to choose . and i guess peoples now a days have made it a "religion". . thats a shame . the original meaning is lost


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## mudsir (Dec 25, 2007)

well as it says in the last and final revelation from God that the "only way of life" acceptable in the sight of God is submission of your will to the will of God that is Islam.


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## x3060 (Dec 25, 2007)

i dont have any offence to any religion . cause they are ment for the welfare of human kind . but most often they serve for the purpose of destruction . i sometimes wish , there were no religion at all , no gods nothing . half of the wars will be solved instantly . 
religion is an evil entity now a days 

hell , what did i say ? people stop fighting 
we got OS wars , graphic card wars , cpu wars right here 

i guess everyone got the meaning of that sentence .


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## mudsir (Dec 26, 2007)

The 9th German federal election of the Weimar Republic was held on March 5, 1933, and was the last election to be held in Germany before World War II. Because of the success of the Nazi Party in the poll, its leader and Chancellor of Germany, Adolf Hitler, was able to pass the Enabling Act, which effectively gave him the power of a dictator.


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## kumarmohit (Dec 26, 2007)

^^@ mudsir

That was a general election of entire country and this was state election. Moreover if Modi wud have wanted to do something like this, he wud have already done it when he had more than 120 seats in assembly. Now that he has just 117, it is really doubtful if he wud do anything like this.

Moreover the economic realities of that time were different, there is no great depression in Indian economy, leave alone Gujarat economy. The German judiciary and Indian one are based on two different systems so there is that factor to be considered as well. All you are trying to do is comparing apples with with oranges and in the process undermining the democratic process which is the reason that India is a respected country in the world.





			
				mudsir said:
			
		

> well as it says in the last and final revelation from God that the "only way of life" acceptable in the sight of God is submission of your will to the will of God that is Islam.



Prove it. Bring me one irrefutable reason why has your Allah fallen silent when people are killing in his name. What kind of a religion it is which teaches people to kill and maim others.

Dude Get Rid of Your Islamic Chauvinism and learn the meaning of being secular. The fact is that all religions are the way to the same God. There is absolutely nothing like a true way or the only way or the true religion or only religion. Al religions are true and all ways are correct.


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## mudsir (Dec 26, 2007)

kumarmohit said:
			
		

> Prove it. Bring me one irrefutable reason why has your Allah fallen silent when people are killing in his name. What kind of a religion it is which teaches people to kill and maim others.



YOU have to first prove that where is it written in the religious books of Islam that one has to kill and maim others.

dont be a liar to mislead others.

and dont quote verses out of context.

and dont quote from mahabharata and gita where it is written that one can kill and maim even ones own brothers.


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## kumarmohit (Dec 26, 2007)

mudsir said:
			
		

> YOU have to first prove that where is it written in the religious books of Islam that one has to kill and maim others.
> 
> dont be a liar to mislead others.
> .



*Unbridled Hatred toward Jews,
Christians and Infidels*


    * "Do not take the Jews and Christians for friends" (Surah 5:51)

    * "fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness" (Surah 9:123)

    * "fight those who do not believe in Allah" (Surah 9:29)

    * "and fight them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah" (Surah 8:39)

    * "fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace" (Surah 9:14)

    * "Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them" (Surah 9:30)

    * "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" (Surah 8:12)

    * Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. (Sahih Al-Bukhari 9:57)

** Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)*

    * Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. (Koran 69:30-37)

    * I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)

    * They (the unbelievers) should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)

    * "Know that paradise is under the shades of swords." (Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 4 p55)



Rabid Hatred Toward Jews


    * And abasement and humiliation were brought down upon them [The Jews], and they became deserving of Allah's wrath; this was so because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah and killed the prophets unjustly; this was so because they disobeyed and exceeded the limits (Sura 2:61)

    * Ignominy shall be their portion [the Jews'] wheresoever they are found... They have incurred anger from their Lord, and wretchedness is laid upon them... because they disbelieve the revelations of Allah and slew the Prophets wrongfully... because they were rebellious and used to transgress. [Surah 111, v. 112]

    * They [the Jews] are the heirs of Hell.... They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is clear from what they say ... When evil befalls you they rejoice." Ibid. [Surah 111, v. 117-120]

    * And thou wilt find them [the Jews] the greediest of mankind....[Surah 11, v. 96]

    * Allah hath cursed them [the Jews] for their disbelief. [Surah 4, v. 46]

    * They [the Jews] spread evil in the land .... [Surah 5, v. 62-66]

    * [The Jews] knowingly perverted [the word of Allah], know of nothing except lies ... commit evil and become engrossed in sin. [Surah 2, v. 71-85]

    * And they [the Jews] took riba (interest on loans) though they were forbidden to do so, and they devoured the wealth of mankind wrongfully - We have prepared for those among them who are rejecters of truth, a grievous chastisement." (4:161)



        How The Koran Contradicts Itself


        The Koran says about itself: "Will they not ponder on the Koran? If it had not come from Allah, they could have surely found in it many contradictions."  


Heavens/Earth came together at creation. (Surah 41:11)
---
Heavens/Earth were ripped apart at creation. (Surah 21:30)

Creation took six days. (Surah 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59)
---
Creation took eight days. (Surah 41:9-12)

Earth created first. (Surah 2:29)
---
Heavens created first. (Surah 70:27-30)

All angels obey Allah. (Surah 16:49-50)
---
Not all angels obey Allah. (Surah 2:34)

Pharaoh drowned. (Surah 17:103, 28:40, 43:55)
---
Pharaoh did not drown. (Surah 10:92)

All of Noah's sons were aboard the ark. (Surah 21:76-77)
---
Not all of Noah's sons were aboard the ark. (Surah 11)

One angel spoke to Mary. (Surah 19:17-21)
---
Several angels spoke to Mary. (Surah 3:42-45)

Paradise has one garden. (Surah 39:73, 41:30, 57:21, 79:41)
---
Paradise has many gardens. (Surah 18:31, 22:23, 35:33, 78:32)

Allah can have a son. (Surah 39:4)
---
Allah can't have a son. (Surah 6:101)

Face Mecca while praying. (Surah 2:115, 144)
---
Face Jerusalem while praying. (Surah 2:115, 144)

If I am a liar then I think whatever is happening in the world is a lie. Why is it that a teacher was given punishment of 100 lashes just becoz she named the bear Mohammed. Or why is it that every once in a while Osama and his goons try to arouse people in the name of Allah and Islam not to mention that people actually act according what he says.


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## mudsir (Dec 26, 2007)

nice copy and paste job from *www.delusionresistance.org/christian/koranhate.html

seems you agree with the quotes which are all taken out of context by some christians.

shall i post what the christians have written about hinduism and its contradictions and violence.


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## kumarmohit (Dec 26, 2007)

Yes it is a copy and paste and it is so becoz I do not have time to invent the wheel again. And please do not claim about others talking out of context when you are also doing the same thing.

*If they are out of context then please explain the proper context here.*

AFAIK Christians might have been involved in verbal chutzpah, (so have been Hindus) but they do not pick up an AK 47 and start indiscriminate firing just becoz of any reason. 

And befiore you bring Hitler again and raise the jew issue and become the great jew saviour, consider what is PLO doing.


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## mudsir (Dec 26, 2007)

there are a lot of lies in the copy and paste post of yours.

i cant obviously reply to all of them

that will take many hours of mine.

therefore i advice you to read the quran yourself instead of just reading lies about it.

let me just take the first lie and reply

"Do not take the Jews and Christians for friends" (Surah 5:51)

again out of context

 Relations with other people are governed by the basic rule in 5:57 &  60:8-9. The Jews and Christians who cannot be friends are specifically mentioned in 5:57; they are the ones who mock and ridicule the believers, or attack them.

[5:57] O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture who mock and ridicule your religion, nor shall you befriend the disbelievers. You shall reverence GOD, if you are really believers.

Basic Law Regulating Relations With Unbelievers

[60:8-9] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable. GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

[9:123] O you who believe, you shall fight the disbelievers who attack you - let them find you stern - and know that GOD is with the righteous.

[9:29] You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.

[8:39] You shall fight them to ward off oppression, and to practice your religion devoted to GOD alone. If they refrain from aggression, then GOD is fully Seer of everything they do.

[9:14] You shall fight them, for GOD will punish them at your hands, humiliate them, grant you victory over them, and cool the chests of the believers.

[9:30] The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of GOD," while the Christians said, "Jesus is the son of GOD!" These are blasphemies uttered by their mouths. They thus match the blasphemies of those who have disbelieved in the past. GOD condemns them. They have surely deviated.

[8:12] Recall that your Lord inspired the angels: "I am with you; so support those who believed. I will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved. You may strike them above the necks, and you may strike even every finger."

A contradiction exists when A says this thing is black while B says this thing is white. The Quran makes it clear that you can engage in warfare providing certain criteria are met:

1) To resist aggression and keep your society free from other peoples intrusions.

2) To defend your life

"[22:39] Permission is granted to those who are being persecuted, since injustice has befallen them, and GOD is certainly able to support them"  and
"[22:40] They were evicted from their homes unjustly, for no reason other than saying, "Our Lord is GOD." If it were not for GOD's supporting of some people against others, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and masjids - where the name of GOD is commemorated frequently - would have been destroyed. Absolutely, GOD supports those who support Him. GOD is Powerful, Almighty."

3) To enable a person to follow his own religious beliefs without compulsion.

"[2:256] There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient."

As we can see here the Quran provides a very just and ethical system of war that's way ahead of its time. If you can find a verse that contradicts these principals then your email has merit. There is nothing wrong with fighting with your enemies if they wage war with you. Now compare the Quran's ethics in war to the Bible. Where do you find noble principles like these in the bible? What one finds in the bible is the Israelites fighting to make their enemies extinct. Not just force them to convert to Islam as critics charge!

Numbers 31: And the Lord said unto Moses, "Avenge the children of the Mid'-an'ites.. They warred against the Mid'-i-an'ites, as the Lord commanded Moses, and they slay all the males. And they took all women as captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. Moses said, "HAVE YOU SAVED ALL THE WOMEN ALIVE? NOW KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, AND KILL EVERY WOMAN that has known a man by lying with him, but all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves."

[Joshua 6:23,21]Joshua said to the people of Israel, "The Lord has given you the city of the all silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: They shall come into the treasury of the Lord.
The people utterly DESTROYED ALL THAT WAS IN THE CITY, BOTH MAN AND WOMAN,YOUNG AND OLD, AND OX AND SHEEP, AND ASS, WITH THE EDGE OF THE SWORD.

4) No one can be forced to convert or stay in Islam as verse 2:256 advocates. Religion is something you believe in by your own free will. You can't be forced to believe what you don't. The Quran even says to protect Christian and Jewish temples in Muslim lands, even from other muslims:

[22:40] They were evicted from their homes unjustly, for no reason other than saying, "Our Lord is GOD." If it were not for GOD's supporting of some people against others, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and masjids - where the name of GOD is commemorated frequently - would have been destroyed. Absolutely, GOD supports those who support Him. GOD is Powerful, Almighty.

5) Now what does the bible say about people who leave the God of Israel ?

Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."

This is what Paul says about the Old Testament's "just" system,
Romans 1:20-32 ....32. "Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them." 


Now, let's look at some other verses about befriending the Jews and the   Christians, or anyone not Muslim  (Submitter) for that matter. These two verses are regulating relations with any people, regardless of faith;

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

Thus, we learn that we are only enjoined from befriending those who fight us because of religion. Let's go back to the verse immediately after 5:51, to see if it now sheds some more light on the issue.

[5:52] You will see those who harbor doubt in their hearts hasten to join them, saying, "We fear lest we may be defeated." May GOD bring victory, or a command from Him, that causes them to regret their secret thoughts.

Thus, it is clear that this is a situation when there is a division and an overhanging conflict between the believers and the others. Otherwise, what would be the logic behind the statement. "We fear lest we may be defeated."

In these situations those with doubts in their hearts will ally themselves with the enemy.

5:57 makes it clear again, who are not to be taken as friends;

[5:57] O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture who mock and ridicule your religion, nor shall you befriend the disbelievers. You shall reverence GOD, if you are really believers.

God teaches us throughout the Quran that there are righteous Jews and Christians. So, if we think we are righteous, and they are righteous, what could possibly be the problem between us, or obstacle for us to be friends?

[7:159] Among the followers of Moses there are those who guide in accordance with the truth, and the truth renders them righteous.

[5:46] Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.

[5:47] The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD's   revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the wicked.

[2:62 & 5:69] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[3:113-114]. They are not all the same; among the followers of the scripture, there are those who are righteous. They recite GOD's revelations through the night, and they fall prostrate.

They believe in GOD and the Last Day, they advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and they hasten to do righteous works. These are the righteous.

[3:199] Surely, some followers of the previous scriptures do believe in GOD, and in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed to them. They reverence GOD, and they never trade away GOD's revelations for a cheap price. These will receive their recompense from their Lord. GOD is the most efficient in reckoning.

We learn, however, from the Quran that the Christians are closer to the believers (submitters-Muslims) than the Jews.  This is just a statement of fact by God almighty, that we can still witness during our time. God is the best knower of  the emotional structure of His creations and therefore was this statement of fact in 5:82. We can witness from the conflict in the Middle East for example , how very emotional the Jews get and how they react to conflicts with their friends, their enemies or even among themselves inside Israel.

[5:82] You will find that the worst enemies of the believers are the Jews and the idol worshipers. And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.

This verse should not be used by any mean to negate the fact that among the Jews  (and Christians) will be righteous people who can be good friends as explained in the above verses,  they do not fight us in our religion or our homes. They can be our neighbors, colleagues, friends, co-workers...etc  We will be good to them as they are good to us. We, all the righteous people of all religions ,can make the difference and make this world better by respecting each other,  respecting the freedom of choice of each other, and remember that we all have the One and the same God.


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## mediator (Dec 26, 2007)

mudsir said:
			
		

> there are a lot of lies in the copy and paste post of yours.
> 
> i cant obviously reply to all of them
> 
> ...


 Funny really and what does ur book tell about goats? To kill em becoz we got karnivore teeth? Tell me bt it!


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## apacheman (Dec 26, 2007)

kumarmohit said:
			
		

> ** Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)*


These are cheap tactics often used by people like you to prove the Quran wrong. Picking and quoting verses out of context...bah! real dirty!

If you really wanna know the meaning of thise verse then READ THE COMPLETE CHAPTER. i.e. Surah 9.
By the time you come to verse 5, which you quoted, it says in verse 1-5 that there was a treaty between the Muslims and Mushrikuns of Makkah. [Mushrikun means the disbelievers, kaafirs or idolaters; and incase you take offence to the word kaafirs, kaafir in Arabic means one who does not believe in Allah. same as what you call as a Hindu in english. and idolaters means the one who worships idiols.]
The Mushrikun broke the treaty and attacked the Muslims, so it is then that Allah commands them to slay or kill the idolaters.
and just incase you are too blind to continue and read verse 6, in it Allah says : *"And if anyone of the Mushrikun seeks your protection then grant him protection and escort him to a place of safety where he can be secure"*
well, just quoting blindly and out of context and misleading the facts wont help it. read and understand before you misquote.
and all ur allegations about hatred against jews and christians are as baseless as the one you quoted. 



			
				kumarmohit said:
			
		

> How The Koran Contradicts Itself
> The Koran says about itself: "Will they not ponder on the Koran? If it had not come from Allah, they could have surely found in it many contradictions."
> 
> Heavens/Earth came together at creation. (Surah 41:11)
> ...


and regarding you so called contradictions in the Quran, just one error is enough to prove the Quran wrong.

you just quoted a part of it, i'll give the complete translations.

*Surah 41, Verse 11* : Then Allah rose over the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and the earth: "Come both of you willingly or unwliingly.: They both said: "Willingly."
if you read the previous verse, you'll know that its talking about the creation of the heavens and the earth. so this verse says that both the heavens and the earth were created together.
Now,
*Surah 21, Verse 30*: Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And we have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
Now where does it say in this verse that both were "ripped apart when created" as u alleged.
if you would read it with simple understanding, it says the same as it mentioned in your previous quotation, that he earth and heavens were joined. *that means both were created together*. so both the verses dont conttradict. and it is after that, that they were parted. 
so mister, strange that you coudn't understand this simple a thing, and you went on to quote a string of your so called contradictions. its better if you first read, understand and then quote.
i've cleared just one, and the rest are as illogical as the first one.


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## blueshift (Dec 26, 2007)

wth... you all seriously read those religious books??

all these posts makes me closer to becoming an atheist!


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## x3060 (Dec 26, 2007)

i hate religious books , they are good for sleeping though...
come on , just go out and enjoy the nature...the bright sunshine, the lovely rain , the beautiful rainbow
why read some 10000 page text that someone wrote and fight over it, 
you did not write it naaaaa, why bother?????
you guys are fighting like , "your material" just missed the AWARD.


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## blueshift (Dec 26, 2007)

..as if engineering books were not enough !


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## x3060 (Dec 26, 2007)

LOL 

but you can use religious books even in the old days na (As pillow)... just tell them , i am trying to become one with the god .

i wonder how people write those books???
i mean look at them , it makes people fight , isnt it???, just a silly book.


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## mediator (Dec 26, 2007)

> O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of *previous scripture* who mock and ridicule your religion, nor shall you befriend the disbelievers. You shall reverence GOD, if you are really believers.


 Previous scripture? I thought blind believers always cried that their scripturez are oldest.
Whiner : If and only if u believe me then don't befriend that guy because he mocks me! 



> [60:8-9] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable. GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.


 So trangessors are the ones who evict u from ur home? In that light I guess the biggest ones are mughals, talibanis etc.




> [9:29] You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.


 First he/she tells to stay away from disbelievers and then 'enjoins' to fight against them? Sure and create a mess outta a healthy living society. 




> [8:39] You shall fight them to ward off oppression, and to practice your religion devoted to GOD alone. If they refrain from aggression, then GOD is fully Seer of everything they do.


 Goto the lands of innocent souls, start looking for goats, privileges and sharia 'to pratice ur religion'! If they deny u, then create a living hell for em!? Why cant they live peacefully circumsized and without music?



> [9:14] You shall fight them, for GOD will punish them at your hands, humiliate them, grant you victory over them, and cool the chests of the believers.


 Mughals and thorough believers surely give perfect instances!




> [8:12] Recall that your Lord inspired the angels: "I am with you; so support those who believed. I will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved. You may strike them above the necks, and you may strike even every finger."


 Who are blind believers to slay infidels when the leader himself is willing to take charge of it?




> [5:82] You will find that the worst enemies of the believers are the Jews and the idol worshipers. And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.


 Was that supposed to be a joke? Learn how many criminal charges are pendng against Bukhari of Jama Masjid first and the maulvis who hire terrorists in their madrassas.



> A contradiction exists when A says this thing is black while B says this thing is white


 'A' can be looking at a wall from front which black and 'B' can be looking the same wall, white from behind. 'A' can see a hologram differently from a different angle while B may see something else. U can stick to ur point while I to mine. It might be called argument. Do u even understand what a contradiction is?

It means the same when someone says, "To live according to nature and believe and then says to circumsize urself!" 



> The Quran makes it clear that you can engage in warfare providing certain criteria are met:
> 1) To resist aggression and keep your society free from other peoples intrusions.
> 2) To defend your life


 And thats called an irony! So please keep those surahs to yourself and save me from reading ironies and contradictions instead of healthy discussions on the topic! 

U surely deviated it 180 degrees! Congrats


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## eminemence (Dec 27, 2007)

This thread has been declared "Communally sensitive thread"  and I call upon the the mods to impose a curfew .
C'mon ppl,chill and lets get back to more sane things.
--eminemence.


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## sreevirus (Dec 27, 2007)

hehehe...couldn't resist...
watch this y'all:

*www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJM4EBuL82o


But damn! The way I see it, there are a lot of fanatics here, not much different from each other.
Oh in the name of humanity, for the love of (your own) god(s), stop fighting people!


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## ssdivisiongermany1933 (Dec 27, 2007)

Thread must be close till next Gujarat elections


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## lionheart133 (Dec 30, 2007)

the so called "proof" is all made up. tehelka is fake. 

dude why dont u get ur facts right??
prove how tehelka is fake??

BJP and its stooges are like the nazi party of india
create a fear psychosis in the public (which by the way is easy) that hindusim is attacked from all sides
keep harping about development
sideline the fact that muslims of gujarat are in ghettos
and oh btw what was the explanation given for the riots???
it was a reaction to the burning??????
is this the goddammned 21st century??

there is this awesome quote so relevant in these times
[SIZE=-1]"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for *good men* to do nothing"[/SIZE]

not christians. christians were not harmed. christians have never been harmed in india. 

 not harmed
dude where u based??? in the moon??

go to this link www.persecution.in and please let me know



damnthenet said:


> nix : " support narendra modi..."
> ..............this is a mere election slogan........................
> 
> nix : "he is a man of steel."
> ...



Love ur post dude

just give me name of one civilization which was ended by Jews??.



dude i aint into religion bickering but just wanted  to clarify ur qstn abt civilization ended by the jews

u heard of the cannanities?? they were from the land of cannan or more precisely the fertile crescent (present israel and palestine)
last i heard was they were destroyed along with amalekites 5000 years ago by a nomad tribe from mesopotamia (read hebrews)


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