# Vista is still the most secure OS to date.



## anandk (Jun 22, 2007)

Vista is still the most secure OS to date.

*blogs.csoonline.com/files/6mo-reduced-high.PNG

details : *blogs.csoonline.com/windows_vista_6_month_vulnerability_report


----------



## iMav (Jun 22, 2007)

didnt members of this board especially the anti-windows left brigade say that time will tell vista is in-secure ... hmmm ... i wonder were we wrong when we said it in the beginning that vista the most secure os .... oh welll what the hell ....


----------



## Third Eye (Jun 22, 2007)

thanks for the information.Using vista for month with no virus problem.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 22, 2007)

Saw this a few days ago.

Bugs will always be there. Vista faced the recent ANI falw, however how many virus are out there affecting vista after 6 months of Vista? 0

Now, the next statement from Lingeeks & Macboys will be "Vista is new & not popular enough, once it is popular enough there will be Virus."

hey, isn't that what we Windows Users say about Linux & Mac


----------



## ~Phenom~ (Jun 22, 2007)

I dont believe them. Ubuntu/Linux is the best and most secure.


----------



## iMav (Jun 22, 2007)

sachai kadvi hoti hai


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 22, 2007)

~Phenom~ said:
			
		

> I dont believe them. Ubuntu/Linux is the best and most secure.



Fine, don't believe them. It hardly matters for them. linux is still trying to play catch up in desktop market. Mac is still trying to release a PMP & OS & *Vista is out there making maximum amount of money.*

In the end, a high salary & money is all what matters. Ethics look nice on paper but not in real life.


----------



## Dark Star (Jun 22, 2007)

~Phenom~ said:
			
		

> I dont believe them. Ubuntu/Linux is the best and most secure.


The right word  WHy we should pay 15 k  For security after all we all did not use Windows without AV


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 22, 2007)

You don't need to pay 15k for Vista. 10.5k for home premium is good enough.

If linux does the work for you & if you have spend most of your computing time learning Linux to play a mp3, well then stick to it & stop criticizing Windows. You won't get any criticism back for linux too.


----------



## Sukhdeep Singh (Jun 22, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> You don't need to pay 15k for Vista. 10.5k for home premium is good enough.
> 
> If linux does the work for you & if you have spend most of your computing time learning Linux to play a mp3, well then stick to it & stop criticizing Windows. You won't get any criticism back for linux too.



Very true, For us Indians...we depend on Piracy. Most of licensed Windows users are from US, UK and Europe and other developed countries. They wont mind spending  one day income on Windows rather paying hundreds to doctor after using some not user friendly OS in my opinion


----------



## shantanu (Jun 22, 2007)

Well, I use Windows (Vista & XP) without AV. 

and in india too many people have genuine licensed Version of Windows. People who are concerned only buy genuine Software, 

and yes Vista is and will be the most secure OS till M$ launches another OS with their Timeline.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 22, 2007)

Vista "_might_" have virus in the future, well...I will get worried at that time then. Right now It has none & I am happy using it right now with just ad muncher & Zonealarm.

The last thing that someone using pirated windows should say is "Vista is insecure". Here is the thing, MS didn't installed that "Free viagra toolbar" in your computer. You cliked on that link yourself.


----------



## ~Phenom~ (Jun 22, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Fine, don't believe them. It hardly matters for them. linux is still trying to play catch up in desktop market. Mac is still trying to release a PMP & OS & *Vista is out there making maximum amount of money.*
> 
> In the end, a high salary & money is all what matters. Ethics look nice on paper but not in real life.


 This is the problem . MS products are all about making money and Linux/OSS is all about "humanity to others". And a world without ethics will be nothing less than HELL.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 22, 2007)

> This is the problem . MS products are all about making money and Linux/OSS is all about "humanity to others". And a world without ethics will be nothing less than HELL.



Abe humanity ka achchar dalun kya...?  humanity doesn't give job or doesn't let me work on my computer without working on it first.


----------



## Sukhdeep Singh (Jun 22, 2007)

~Phenom~ said:
			
		

> This is the problem . MS products are all about making money and Linux/OSS is all about "humanity to others". And a world without ethics will be nothing less than HELL.



Do you think, Microsoft doenst give a Damn to social responsiblity. Well they do... 

*www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm


----------



## cynosure (Jun 22, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Abe humanity ka achchar dalun kya...?  humanity doesn't give job or doesn't let me work on my computer without working on it first.


^^
Sahi hai


----------



## aditya.shevade (Jun 22, 2007)

Well.... I am on OpenSuSE.. and I am happy with it..... And SLED came second... yeah yeah yeah.....


----------



## ~Phenom~ (Jun 22, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Abe humanity ka achchar dalun kya...?  humanity doesn't give job or doesn't let me work on my computer without working on it first.


Open source also have jobs and do u think all employees/engineers  of Red Hat, Gentoo,etc. work without pay ??? 
OSS does not mean free software as in free beer but as in freedom of speech. First go get the basics of open source  clear. 
*www.gnu.org/

and if Linux doesnt let u work on ur computer... well  ,as they say,Linux is user friendly but not idiot friendly 



			
				sukhdeepsinghkohli said:
			
		

> Do you think, Microsoft doenst give a Damn to social responsiblity. Well they do...
> 
> *www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm


I like William Henry Gates III as a philanthropist but as a businessman, both he and his policies sucks.


----------



## Avatar (Jun 22, 2007)

^^ Filled with hate, i think as a businesman he is a icon. And business and ethics can never go on same road so don't expect too much.



> and if Linux doesnt let u work on ur computer... well ,as they say,Linux is user friendly but not idiot friendly


 
Then sir how are you using linux , i wonder.


----------



## iMav (Jun 22, 2007)

Avatar said:
			
		

> Then sir how are you using linux , i wonder.


man i was about to say the same thing ... bang on target ....  the thing is this is 1 of the forums where every1 wants to pwn MS users but in turn like their os get pwned themselves ... and there are very few forums like that its either all windows or all other os .... no where windows pwns others to the nail ... im proud to be a part of this forum 

the truth always wins ... and it has been for the pas 3 decades or so 

@anand thanks for reviving the discussion i was kinda bored with arya and neps constant display of naivity


----------



## ~Phenom~ (Jun 22, 2007)

^^well i dont hate MS but I just  think OSS is better.
And about me using linux , I think if i can use linux and they can't , I am no more  No.1


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 22, 2007)

~Phenom~ said:
			
		

> *^^well i dont hate MS but I just  think OSS is better.*
> And about me using linux , I think if i can use linux and they can't , I am no more  No.1



Ok, now don't critisize if you don't know how things in Windows world work.


----------



## ~Phenom~ (Jun 22, 2007)

lol
Well , I have said it before and I am saying it again " Linux is the best."

End of debate from my end.


----------



## iMav (Jun 22, 2007)

what does ur work is best for u ... as long as others dont go around bashing other os and its user we are cool ... we have always said if windows does ur work use it if linux does ur work use it but if ur using linux then dont go around bashing ms and windows users


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 23, 2007)

shantanu said:
			
		

> Well, I use Windows (Vista & XP) without AV.
> 
> and in india too many people have genuine licensed Version of Windows. People who are concerned only buy genuine Software,
> 
> and yes Vista is and will be the most secure OS till M$ launches another OS with their Timeline.


Even i use XP without AV . i only have the XP firewall on and that does the job for me .


----------



## Avatar (Jun 23, 2007)

~Phenom~ said:
			
		

> " Linux is the best."


 
That's a better way of saying that you like linux . Why it has to be always like "linux is better , windows sucks" . Why do linux or mac users always have to mention windows in each of their statement. Why can't you people get out of the shadow of MS, if you don't like it, why is ever worth mentioning. 

Point is, why people have to act like they are spreading a religion. "Come with us and be enlightned" my a$$. I hate these missionary people.


----------



## iMav (Jun 23, 2007)

^^ it was worse until the three mustkuteers came together on this forum


----------



## praka123 (Jun 23, 2007)

this is nothing,there are more than 20+ "independent security" comparison studies done by other companies,at the                                 end:sponsored by Mu$dcrosoft.LOL!
UNIX/Linux is meant for security and stability unlike the GUI gaming shell!
As against the FUD survey's from M$,read below :
*Kernel Comparison: Linux (2.6.21) versus Windows (Vista)*


> Intro
> 
> This aims to be the most comprehensive0 kernel1, 2 comparison3 of the latest most popular Unix style kernel versus the latest most popular kernel. In Q2 2007, this means Linux 2.6.21 kernel versus Windows Vista kernel. In Q3 2007, this means Linux 2.6.22 kernel versus Windows Server 2008 kernel.


 *widefox.pbwiki.com/Kernel%20Comparison%20Linux%20vs%20Windows
^let u decide.
Dont believe these FUD survey's; as of 2007 M$ seriously wants to kill Open Source and Linux-but they cant


----------



## iMav (Jun 23, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> this is nothing,there are more than 20+ "independent security" comparison studies done by other companies,at the                                 end:sponsored by Mu$dcrosoft.LOL!
> UNIX/Linux is meant for security and stability unlike the GUI gaming shell!
> As against the FUD survey's from M$,read below :
> *Kernel Comparison: Linux (2.6.21) versus Windows (Vista)*
> ...





			
				Avatar said:
			
		

> Point is, why people have to act like they are spreading a religion. "Come with us and be enlightned" my a$$.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 23, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> this is nothing,there are more than 20+ "independent security" comparison studies done by other companies,at the                                 end:sponsored by Mu$dcrosoft.LOL!
> UNIX/Linux is meant for security and stability unlike the GUI gaming shell!
> As against the FUD survey's from M$,read below :
> *Kernel Comparison: Linux (2.6.21) versus Windows (Vista)*
> ...



So, if there is a survay praising MS it is FUD.

If there is survay for Apple it is also FUD

If there is survay from u, about Linux then it is not FUD against MS despite of the fact that u don't like MS.

Gr8 Logic.


----------



## praka123 (Jun 23, 2007)

A well known fact that is UNIX/UNIX-like OS's are the last word in security.
I never said MAC is not secure.MAC is based on FreeBSD UNIX* that means it is way better than what M$ can offer.
Vista can only dream of the security features of UNIX/Linux.
*Security Report: Windows vs Linux*


*www.askwebhosting.com/article/79/UNIX_vs._Windows-_What_server_operating_system_should_you_use_for_your_web_hosting?.html


----------



## aryayush (Jun 23, 2007)

shantanu said:
			
		

> People who are concerned only buy genuine Software,


Oh, so the non-genuine versions somehow become less secure than the genuine ones? That's a new one. 



			
				Avatar said:
			
		

> Why it has to be always like "linux is better , windows sucks" . Why do linux or mac users always have to mention windows in each of their statement.


Do a little search and find out who plays the spoilsport in each and every Apple related thread started on this forum.

Hint: It is not a Mac or Linux user.


And then, also note that very rarely do Mac users jump in any thread related to Windows to criticise it.


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jun 23, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Vista "_might_" have virus in the future, well...I will get worried at that time then. Right now It has none....


hmmm.. i dun understand this statement of urs! do u mean to say that viruses prev. existant for windows do not affect vista??!!! huh??



			
				Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> Even i use XP without AV . i only have the XP firewall on and that does the job for me .


ditto here. but i use vista. use only the built in firewall coupled wid a nice li'l utility called Vista Firewall control (free version), which lets me haf more control over the built in firewall.

i also use my ubuntu 7.04 out of the box for net surfing.....


----------



## Quiz_Master (Jun 23, 2007)

aryayush said:
			
		

> And then, also note that very rarely do Mac users jump in any thread related to Windows to criticise it.



Thats because after years of experience with MACs they knew that Windows is Far better. 

Linux is secure only and only because Virus programmers are not interested in developing Viruses for it. Its not popular. Same can be said for MACs.

Viruses meant for XP can still affect Vista but they will not cause as much damage as they will cause in XP cause Vista has better user account controll,
 Protected mode in internet explorer, windows defender, and Network Access Protection to name a few. There are more deep level enhancements.

So for now Vista is secured. Not much secured then Linux or MAC, but who cares.

But seriously.. For us Home users,does security really matters?
What kind of confidential data we have? How much someone will gain by hacking our Vista system? NOTHING!!!

For us what matters is usability... and Windows is far more easier and efficient then Linux or MACs. Atleast we can Play our fev. games and watch TV on our PC using Windows.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 23, 2007)

infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> hmmm.. i dun understand this statement of urs! do u mean to say that viruses prev. existant for windows do not affect vista??!!! huh??


nope, they don't. Try running Nimda on Vista (i tried on Vista RC1). it didn't affect anything. On next boot up Vista disabled those registry entries.

How will u get virus?

1) Web based E-Mail. - All of them have some sort of anti virus inbuilt, like Hotmail has trend micro while yahoo has norton

2) CD DVD Disks, Pen drive from friends - One word, be careful.

3) Outlook, Thunderbird etc - They all block .exe & .com attachments & give the user a warning when opening zip files with malicious software inside.



> And then, also note that very rarely do Mac users jump in any thread related to Windows to criticise it.



Hey look, a kid is lieing . Gosh, kids they just don't know what they are speaking.


----------



## iMav (Jun 23, 2007)

aryayush said:
			
		

> Oh, so the non-genuine versions somehow become less secure than the genuine ones? That's a new one.
> 
> Do a little search and find out who plays the spoilsport in each and every Apple related thread started on this forum.
> 
> ...


 how many copy-paste apple related threads are there and how many purely anti-MS apple/OSS threads are there

and what was happening on this forum when news of vista being released came out and when news of the zune came out ... arya ur naivity has started to annoy me now ... arrogance and ignorance is 1 thing u r at an altogether another level of those characteristics


----------



## praka123 (Jun 23, 2007)

Quiz_Master said:
			
		

> Linux is secure only and only because Virus programmers are not interested in developing Viruses for it. Its not popular. Same can be said for MACs.


 ^yet to try Linux,I think.if volume of users increases,then viruses will be for Linux too is an absurd comment.the permission system in UNIX and Linux are system-wide and universal.U can learn why Linux or UNIX is virus proof,here before commenting:
*             Note to new Linux users: No antivirus needed*



> One of the most common questions I hear new Linux users ask is "What program should I use for virus protection?" Many of them lose faith in me as a source of security information when I reply, "None." But you really don't need to fear malware on your new platform, thanks to the way Linux is built.
> Savvy Windows users have to watch their virus checkers as closely as the head nurse in the ICU keeps an eye on patient monitors. Often, the buzz in the Windows security world is about which protection-for-profit firm was the first to discover and offer protection for the _malware du jour_ -- or should I say _malware de l'heure_? The only thing better than having backed the winning Super Bowl team come Monday morning at the office coffeepot is having the virus checker you use be the one winning the malware sweepstakes that weekend. If a rogue program finds a crack in your Windows armor, paying $200 per infection to have your machine scrubbed and sanitized by the local goon^H^H^H^H geek squad not only helps to reinforce the notion that you have to have malware protection, but that it has to be the right protection, too. The malware firms are aware of this, and all of their advertising plays upon the insecurity fears of Windows users and the paranoia that results. Chronic exposure and vulnerability to malware has conditioned Windows users to accept this security tax.
> It's no wonder, then, that when Windows users are finally able to break their chains and experience freedom on a Linux desktop, they stare at me in disbelief when I tell them to lay that burden down. They are reluctant to stop totin' that load. They have come to expect to pay a toll for a modicum of security.
> I try to explain that permissions on Linux make such tribute unnecessary. Without quibbling over the definitions of viruses and trojans, I tell them that neither can execute on your machine unless you explicitly give them permission to do so.


 *www.linux.com/articles/60208


> *Linux and viruses*.     Life may be hard for companies that are selling word processors for Linux, but they must have it easy compared to those who would sell us anti-virus systems.  After all, the world has not yet been overwhelmed with reports of killer Linux viruses.  Nonetheless, some people are trying.
> Consider, for example, the folks at Kaspersky Labs.  Their AVP for Linux Server package has been available for a while.  It can perform some useful tasks, such as scanning for email-based viruses passing through to Windows victims.  But it also claims to protect against native Linux viruses; as the product page says, "_...new viruses for Linux appear every day._"
> That claim is clearly a bit over the top, as even Denis Zenkin, Kaspersky's head of corporate communications admitted to us.  In fact, no "in the wild" Linux virus has ever been recorded by that company, leaving one to wonder exactly what AVP protects against.  Kaspersky does maintain a list of known Linux viruses, which contains five entries.  Again, none of them have ever been known to propagate and infect systems.
> One can probably be justified in concluding that the threat is not all that great.  After all, there are plenty of virus writers out there; there are also plenty of crackers looking for vulnerabilities in Linux systems.  One would really expect to have seen at least one hostile Linux-based virus by now.  Denis Zenkin disagrees; he told us:     I would add that as soon as this operating system will become a     desktop standard or gain at least 50% of the Windows popularity     there will be real 'wild' viruses... There is no absolutely secure     environment and I believe as soon as Linux growing popularity will     reach some limit malicious persons will turn their attention there. ​Again, it is hard to believe that no malicious people have yet tried.  For a lot of reasons, Linux systems are a difficult environment for viruses.  A virus that runs on one system will have only limited access, and will have a hard time infecting files on even that one system.  Propagation to another system requires getting over a whole new set of hurdles.  Finally, free software writers are (usually) smart enough to avoid creating easy propagation mechanisms for viruses; in the case where they are not, others will close any holes quickly.
> ...


 *lwn.net/2000/1130/
btwn u can play with winblow$ viruses using win32 emulator under linux(Wine) 


> *Running Windows viruses with Wine*
> [SIZE=-1] It just isn't fair that Windows users get all the viruses. I mean really, shouldn't Linux users be in on the fun as well? Well... thanks to the folks running the Wine project, Linux users can "catch the virus bug" too -- sort of.         [/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1] [/SIZE]
> 
> ...


 *os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/01/25/1430222&from=rss


----------



## alsiladka (Jun 23, 2007)

There was a comment above about MS and Social Work. I think you missed the IM campaign and the Live Search Campaign. 

I have been using Xp and now Vista from the past 3  years without an anti virus and let me tell you, if you know your way around and you know what you are opening, there is no need for an anti virus.


----------



## vish786 (Jun 23, 2007)

infact i already have 2 cds of only viruses.... trying to understand each of them and how  strong  viruses coding is done.


----------



## Desi-Tek.com (Jun 23, 2007)

lets test our self with xp virus on vista? if it will make any damage than it is insecure if it will not make any damage than no further argument on its security? just install vista on vmware on linux and than test it? and pm me for virus 
great thing about linux is if ur pc will get infected with linux virus  that virus will ask or ur permission.
"Do u want to screw up ur system or not?" and if it will try to do any thing without ur permission virus will get error "are you root?" "this even will me reported (on fedora and redhat) and root will get the report through internal mail"


----------



## iMav (Jun 23, 2007)

^^ gx has already tried that and xp virus wasnt successful on vista  pm him fo what he did and how he did it


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 23, 2007)

All I did was to open an old mail which I downloaded to Vista & it had Nimda virus in a com file. I turned on UAC & it didn't let me run it cos it said "com file makes changes to system which is not allowed" Contact admin.

I disabled UAC & tried it, well...I don't know but nothing happened, KAV did found a virus in that com file in Windows folder...but thats about it. My work was not affected.


----------



## amitava82 (Jun 23, 2007)

People Saying "I don't use AV in windows XP, just default firewall", to them.. Please Cut the CRAP! No matter how Geek you are, if you are saying you can protect your Windows PC without AV then its either total Bull**it or you don't connect your PC to outside world. That is to say, you don't connect any pen drive, don't use CDs, floppy or net to your PC. In that case even Win 98 wont be affected with virus. You don't believe me? I'll give you proof. I'll just plug couple of randomly selected pen drive from my college to your computer and you will see the difference within one day. Period. Then you will tear your hair saying why I did not use AV at the first place. If you live in Bangalore and have the courage to accept the challenge, just PM me.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 23, 2007)

Lolz...so if many Windows users know how to protect there computer using correct & commen sence method, they are bull****ing 

Only a lingeek can give such Logic.

Dude, learn to work on WIndows first, if it doesn't work for u then go with Linux. As simple as that. If a virus comes it will affect, but we don't let the virus come to computer at all.


----------



## vish786 (Jun 23, 2007)

cut the crap,

there are people much more intelligent then u and me out their who do lots of stuff on coms than we do,and what u speak is completely wrong and... know not using AV will definitely affect ur system , no matter what customization u do, or change the settings to the highest possible way to block the virus... u wont succeed in stopping the virus without using AV, then why do u think AV, firewalls,anti spyware are used instead they can give a tutorial to just change the settings in ur OS such that OS is not affected by virus.  

dude ur just trying to win the argument using some illogical statements.
*
 someone was also correct while telling about u that u lie to such an extent to prove urself correct, and u already did this just now.
 *
  i said this becoz u cannot use windows without using a antivirus to keep it virus free when ur system is in touch with insecure sites or virus affected files,thats it and my reply wasn't a counter attack on windows OS.
* 
*


----------



## amitava82 (Jun 23, 2007)

What a stupid reply... 
Don't assume you are the only Wingeek in this forum..
BTW the ball in on you court. Why don't you Order some of your "Sensible Windows users" in bangalore to accept the challenge? I'm waiting.


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 23, 2007)

amitava82 said:
			
		

> People Saying "I don't use AV in windows XP, just default firewall", to them.. Please Cut the CRAP! No matter how Geek you are, if you are saying you can protect your Windows PC without AV then its either total Bull**it or you don't connect your PC to outside world. That is to say, you don't connect any pen drive, don't use CDs, floppy or net to your PC. In that case even Win 98 wont be affected with virus. You don't believe me? I'll give you proof. I'll just plug couple of randomly selected pen drive from my college to your computer and you will see the difference within one day. Period. Then you will tear your hair saying why I did not use AV at the first place. If you live in Bangalore and have the courage to accept the challenge, just PM me.


I have been using XP without an Antivirus since XP SP2 . I have an always-on internet connection and my bluetooth dongle is always plugged into my PC and is active .

if that's what you call "not connecting" to the world , then i can't do anything.


----------



## ChaiTan3 (Jun 23, 2007)

Did anyone read the comments written in that blog?
The finidings seem fishy.


----------



## amitava82 (Jun 23, 2007)

So you are expecting to get affected by virus from Bluetooth dongle?


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jun 23, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> All I did was to open an old mail which I downloaded to Vista & it had Nimda virus in a com file. I turned on UAC & it didn't let me run it cos it said "com file makes changes to system which is not allowed" Contact admin.
> 
> I disabled UAC & tried it, well...I don't know but nothing happened, KAV did found a virus in that com file in Windows folder...but thats about it. My work was not affected.



this doesn't in anyway prove that prev. coded viruses do not affect vista! the number mebbe very very less whose fix is inbuilt in vista but saying "as of now" there are no viruses for vista is utterly stupid!!

@amit,vish
believe it or not, i dun use any AV on my windows system and i'm surviving till date!!! i haf only vista's in built firewall. had the same setup in xp too. i haf uac and autorun disabled, and yes i connect flash drives, not jus mine but even my frenz and i'm not at risk as long as i myself dun inflict damage! and i check the run, runonce reg keys, startup group after a data transfer which is not very very freq in may case. so i guess i've survived widout an AV till now and even wud in future if i continue what i do.


----------



## vish786 (Jun 23, 2007)

infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> this doesn't in anyway prove that prev. coded viruses do not affect vista! the number mebbe very very less whose fix is inbuilt in vista but saying "as of now" there are no viruses for vista is utterly stupid!!
> 
> @amit,vish
> believe it or not, i dun use any AV on my windows system and i'm surviving till date!!! i haf only vista's in built firewall. had the same setup in xp too. i haf uac and autorun disabled, and yes i connect flash drives, not jus mine but even my frenz and i'm not at risk as long as i myself dun inflict damage! and i check the run, runonce reg keys, startup group after a data transfer which is not very very freq in may case. so i guess i've survived widout an AV till now and even wud in future if i continue what i do.


i said when ur system is in touch with virus  like visiting insecure sites, and downloading files which includes virus sometimes.  virus wont automatically fly to ur sysytem from somewhere.  it depends on the activities what ur doing on ur com dude.  dont misunderstand me. Too be more specific i'm talking about xp and not vista as its secure till date.


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 23, 2007)

amitava82 said:
			
		

> So you are expecting to get affected by virus from Bluetooth dongle?


nopes , i was only saying that a virus "could" enter my system vis the bluetooth channel .


----------



## iMav (Jun 23, 2007)

amitava ur level of knowledge is quite evident from the comment wherein u say that if xp cant get infected then 98 cant .... what are u trying to imply when u say that if xp cant get infected then even 98 cant i dont understand ...


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 23, 2007)

vish786 said:
			
		

> cut the crap,
> 
> there are people much more intelligent then u and me out their who do lots of stuff on coms than we do,and what u speak is completely wrong and... know not using AV will definitely affect ur system , no matter what customization u do, or change the settings to the highest possible way to block the virus... u wont succeed in stopping the virus without using AV, then why do u think AV, firewalls,anti spyware are used instead they can give a tutorial to just change the settings in ur OS such that OS is not affected by virus.



Lolz....tell u what, confession. I do visit hacking sites, I do visit porn, I do visit crack sites....but I only use Zonealarm (before that Windows firewall( & Ad muncher. Thats it.

OMG....how can I survive then. 

*Dude, Virus are just over hyped. If you know what you are clicking on, u won't get affected. I know that, many users in this forum know this, seems like u don't know this thats why Windows world scares u 
*


> dude ur just trying to win the argument using some illogical statements.



:ROFL:


----------



## vish786 (Jun 23, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Lolz....tell u what, confession. I do visit hacking sites, I do visit porn, I do visit crack sites....but I only use Zonealarm (before that Windows firewall( & Ad muncher. Thats it.
> 
> OMG....how can I survive then.
> 
> ...


... dumbo i know that ur system will be affected only when u open the virus file... until then even if u have lakhs of virus in ur system which have not attached themselves to registry, system will not be affected. but we know that... what about the rest(who use single com) do they know, they just click the file and virus is active and multiplying itself. but there are certain viruses will attach and open automatically at the boot. it depends on how the virus is coded strongly.


----------



## praka123 (Jun 23, 2007)

obviously,Vista may have lesser viruses than xp,but are u sure that all the virus out on the wild for vista are detected by the BOSSes at redmond? 
there are sure Vista viruses there,even i doubt as of M$ Marketing strategy they may have met consensus with warez and virus writer's to "please atleast dont Publicize ur viruses for vista now"-and that seems possible with another thread showing warez guys agreeing with a developer to stop producing warez cracks!
and of M$-they can pay *anyone* whateva teh amount for doing this.
M$ will be hiding there many vulnerabilities and weakness of their OS.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 23, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> obviously,Vista may have lesser viruses than xp,but are u sure that all the virus out on the wild for vista are detected by the BOSSes at redmond?
> there are sure Vista viruses there,even i doubt as of M$ Marketing strategy they may have met consensus with warez and virus writer's to "please atleast dont Publicize ur viruses for vista now"-and that seems possible with another thread showing warez guys agreeing with a developer to stop producing warez cracks!
> and of M$-they can pay *anyone* whateva teh amount for doing this.
> M$ will be hiding there many vulnerabilities and weakness of their OS.



Lolz...then what the hell is secunia doing? Wow, this is just like saying "U.S.A has a aids bomb too but they are hiding it." 

Prakash, your statement are just stupid.


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 23, 2007)

vish786 said:
			
		

> how  strong  viruses coding is done.





			
				vish786 said:
			
		

> it depends on how the virus is coded strongly.


Doesn't necessarily mean that the Trojan/Worm/Virus has to be very complex , it can be as simple as writing a program to sweep of all your files , be it either in Linux or Windows .

PS: before any linux guy replies , i know how linux file permissions work and the internal functionnings .

@visha786 , btw , the word *strong* in programming is not used in the sense how complex the programming is , but in the sense the mnemonics and naming system used in ur program is standards compliant


----------



## vish786 (Jun 23, 2007)

Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> Doesn't necessarily mean that the Trojan/Worm/Virus has to be very complex , it can be as simple as writing a program to sweep of all your files , be it either in Linux or Windows .
> 
> PS: before any linux guy replies , i know how linux file permissions work and the internal functionnings @visha786 , btw , the word *strong* in programming is not used in the sense how complex the programming is , but in the sense the mnemonics and naming system used in ur program is standards compliant  .


i meant , the way virus is affecting, some u can do the changes made by the virus, few virus entries cannot be changed coz those files will constantly be running(background)if u kill a thread which belongs to a process, the process will create the same thread, even if its entries are changed. its the same case with windows or linux or anyother OS. The thread is nothing but the virus actively running and multiplying itself.... this is want i mean by strong virus which effect the core process of kernel. but a normal virus can be stopped by just stopping the process it runs and changing few settings and deleting files which runs the virus every time.


----------



## Avatar (Jun 23, 2007)

> Dont believe these FUD survey's; as of 2007 M$ seriously wants to kill Open Source and Linux-*but they cant*


 
If you are so sure then why are you so afraid? Even i don't think MS in anyway can Kill open Source. Neither can people like you harm MS by such ramblings and anti MS talk. Makes me think who is affected by FUD most here, hmm.

Let people choose, wise will survive. A single choice can not be 'just right' for everyone.



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Oh, so the non-genuine versions somehow become less secure than the genuine ones? That's a new one.


 
Thats a new one for you maybe because you don't know that legit software enables you to have regular security updates, hence more secure OS. You don't need to be a *'Genius'* to know that.  




			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> Do a little search and find out who plays the spoilsport in each and every Apple related thread started on this forum.
> 
> Hint: It is not a Mac or Linux user.


 
I am new to the forum and i don't know you people very well, but soon i will.

btw Spoilsport? 

"_But if a person can use Mac OS X after having used Windows and still prefer the former, there is something fundamentally wrong with that person!_ "

If making statements like this is your sport then i choose to be a spoilsport in any such smug filled threads. 




			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> And then, also note that *very rarely* do Mac users jump in any thread related to Windows to criticise it.


 
The fact being mac users are also *'very rare'* . 

Btw, i will be personally glad if your statement holds true.



			
				amitava82 said:
			
		

> People Saying "I don't use AV in windows XP, just default firewall", to them.. Please Cut the CRAP! No matter how Geek you are, if you are saying you can protect your Windows PC without AV then its either total Bull**it or you don't connect your PC to outside world. That is to say, you don't connect any pen drive, don't use CDs, floppy or net to your PC. In that case even Win 98 wont be affected with virus.


 
Dude thats totally not true, are you not feeling well  ? 

Not like viruses dont effect windows XP, but careful users can do without AV (coz AV's suck). And all the stuff you said we don't do ,well atleast I exactly do that. No AV's and in full contact with Aliens (outside world).


----------



## praka123 (Jun 23, 2007)

Avatar said:
			
		

> If you are so sure then why are you so afraid? Even i don't think MS in  anyway can Kill open Source. Neither can people like you harm MS by such ramblings and anti MS talk. Makes me think who is affected by FUD most here, hmm.
> 
> Let people choose, wise will survive. A single choice can not be 'just right' for everyone.


 I am afraid of Microsoft the company.if u care to search google u wont be asking such a question here,did u heard ubuntu?.anti-M$ talk? do u know what that company holds?weaker OS and good marketing.DOnt u know what MSFT did with bullying SCO UNIX company to break Linux community hence the term FUD evolved.Do u think M$ is arguing for bless that Linux infringes their so called Software patents? 
Linux is chosen by people,and ran by community for that matter who believes in Open Source is better.
Now How can a community without any billion $$$ deposits survive with a monopoly OS vendor attacking the community publicly and US laws blindly supports that;even europeans too.this clearly shows how M$ buys every thing.even more:M$ wants major PC makers to hold Windows Xp/Vista pre-installed!-how can that company assumes else all are going for piracy or are M$ -a software police-damn!these M$ zealots always find a fscking reason for all that.
But FOSS is  a community  and cant be brought-hence the failure of M$ to buy out Linux.
Just research before posting

That report original author posted is biased.


----------



## Avatar (Jun 23, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> *I am afraid* of Microsoft the company.if u care to search google u wont be asking such a question here,did u heard ubuntu?.anti-M$ talk? do u know what that company holds?weaker OS and good marketing.DOnt u know what MSFT did with bullying SCO UNIX company to break Linux community hence the term FUD evolved.Do u think M$ is arguing for bless that Linux infringes their so called Software patents?


 
Ya, by chance people other than you also read news and hence know what's going on in computer world, so don't tell me to google. 

If you are sh1t scared then who was the guy so sure about MS not possibly killing open source in any way just few posts ago? you don't agree with yourself, how will you agree with others? 
Its follish to think whatever comes in MS's favour is sponsored by them. No doubt they are big company but this is not always the case. Due to this ignorant behaviour you can't see the good in things you just sworn to hate. 




			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> *Linux is chosen by people*,and ran by community for that matter who believes in Open Source is better.


 
Correction : Chosen by some of the many people. 



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> Now How can a community without any billion $$$ deposits survive with a monopoly OS vendor attacking the community publicly and US laws blindly supports that;even europeans too.this clearly shows how M$ buys every thing.


 
It has survived so far and will continue to survive, its foolish to think that open source is going anywhere . Power of community can not be underestimated, people like you will only make it weak.



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> M$ wants major PC makers to hold Windows Xp/Vista pre-installed!-how can that company assumes else all are going for piracy or are M$ -a software police-damn!these M$ zealots always find a fscking reason for all that.


 
That's a very fair buiness practice , pushing your product with collaboration of other related companies, whats bad in that. And was MS able to stop DELL dishing out ubuntu preinstalled PC's? According to your theory mighty MS would have easily bought DELL to stop that, like always. But that didn't happen , that's why consumer is more powerful. And thats why its wrong for you to to say MS can buy everything.




			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> But FOSS is a community and cant be brought-*hence the failure of M$ to buy out Linux.*


 
And there you disagree with yourself again, you are again very confident of MS's failure to kill linux, just at the starting of the post you were scared of the giant and giving me the reasons to be afraid! 
split personality? right ,right?

btw, I don't go by the thoughts of FOSS people.


----------



## aryayush (Jun 23, 2007)

Avatar said:
			
		

> Thats a new one for you maybe because you don't know that legit software enables you to have regular security updates, hence more secure OS. You don't need to be a *'Genius'* to know that.


I will have you know that I used a pirated version of Windows XP for five years and always had it patched up to date directly from Microsoft's official, built-in software update system. Now, I have Vista installed on my MacBook Pro and when I boot into it (wow, I haven't booted into it for more than two months now!), I download all the updates without a hitch. And yes, it is pirated. 



			
				Avatar said:
			
		

> Btw, i will be personally glad if your statement holds true.


It _is_ true. There are threads all over this forum that have people reporting serious issues with Windows and market analysts predicting its doom and whatnot, but you'll never see me posting useless remarks against Windows in such threads. On the other hand, run a search and visit just about any thread related to Apple on this forum and see the posts within. You'll know what I mean.

We are being off-topic. I just wanted to correct shantanu about a pirated version of Windows being any less secure than the legit version.


----------



## eddie (Jun 23, 2007)

LOL! 

What a joke this study is. The author is using figures for his benefit without providing the data that lead him to the conclusions. If, as claimed by the author, his source is the advisories being launched by every comparative distro then I have a news for every user who has discussed in this thread till now. Guys...*Linux distros release advisories for EVERY package they have in their repository*.

Now, lets take an example of Ubuntu 6.06 LTS. Do you realise that Ubuntu has Debian backend thus it currently releases advisories for *15,000 packages* from its repositories. Can you see the number? *15,000*!!! Similarly every Linux distro like Novell Enterprise Linux & Redhat Enterprise Linux supports thousands of packages in its repositories and releases advisories for it but what does Windows advisories support? Windows core components and Internet Explorer? Does Microsoft release advisories for 3rd party applications as well?

Now lets come to next step. There are various highly vulnerable software that are cross platform like Apache, MySQL, Mozilla Firefox etc. Does Microsoft's advisories take note of any security vulnerabilities that happen in those packages? No! But Linux distros do release advisories for them. Did the author take all that into account? No, he did not! He just grabbed the advisories from various sources...counted them out and posted a highly biased study.

Now, I just leave it on you guys to make decisions regarding fairness of this study to you people 

I didn't want to include any flames in this post but I just couldn't resist myself replying to this comment





			
				Avatar said:
			
		

> Then sir how are you using linux , i wonder.


...because sir he is not stupid unlike a few others. Points and winks


----------



## praka123 (Jun 23, 2007)

I assume u can understand this:
M$ is a multi billion company which can make things the way they want to.
that was with my first statement=*I am afraid* of Microsoft the company.
can you single handedly carry a threat from M$ or for that matter _any_ big company?
they already did harm FOSS community.care to know -the patent infringement thingy they just brought itself shows their motive.It in itself made innocent users to thing Linux is illegal?

Microsoft is a cunning cheat still alive bcoz of such people who believes that M$ rules!?
 I am optimistic about FOSS.more and more people are going the FOSS and Linux way whether u dont give a damn1 or what 
get over it dude!,there are people who uses Linux and many other alternate OS too.


*Linux is chosen by people*,and ran by community for that matter who believes in Open Source is better.


			
				Avatar said:
			
		

> And there you disagree with yourself again, you are again very confident of MS's failure to kill linux, just at the starting of the post you were scared of the giant and giving me the reasons to be afraid!
> split personality? right ,right?


 Did anywhere i said* M$ killed* FOSS or Linux?
I am pointing to the gigantic monopoly corporation which is still trying to get GNU/Linux OS out from people's view.


----------



## vish786 (Jun 23, 2007)

Avatar said:
			
		

> _Then sir how are you using linux , i wonder._





			
				eddie said:
			
		

> LOL!
> 
> I just couldn't resist myself replying to this comment...because sir he is not stupid unlike a few others. Points and winks


i just cant stop laughing at it... good one eddie

and i can see praka123's frowning face in those smileys. 

@eddie and @ praka123

the best way of replying them is just ignore them and dont reply, no matter how much u tell them, they will not get convinced.


----------



## iMav (Jun 23, 2007)

the problem is actually the other way round ... praka has hi-jacked any thread to bash ms .... i think he knows coz not long ago i used to point out which threads they hi-jacked im sure he remembers


----------



## praka123 (Jun 23, 2007)

^^ yeah,we miss ur golden FUDing here  SIr!-We all know who all guys illegally installed MAC OS X on some pc and start reviewing(bashing!) MAC. and another poor MAC using soul(s) went frustrating with ur FUDing(for thy owner-Microsoft eh?)
and another blessed soul,came in open source section "to review Ubuntu"-again bashing and FUDing FOSS.who do we careful of?
I Just pointed out the reality-people tend to believe what they got running(windows) is the best and that is a mirage which  will be a past history Once u used/switched to better Operating system's.
people Vista fanboys just post such a fake claims as genuine and we cant stop reacting against the lie's they are spreading.for eg:this thread subject 
why is it that media can be bought to release such tall claims reg M$ Vista be soo gr8 and next news that "Linux infringes patents"-did u smelled something fishy-that's what me trying to say.
Another thing is this company microsoft,is very keen on getting Linux and Open Source out of world view.
As a lenient person-I care.I want to have this OSS community thrive instead of the monopoly been gaining growth and being rich with another $$$ billion's on their accounts


----------



## iMav (Jun 23, 2007)

we reviewed the mac but the salesman's feelings were so hurt that he started threads for fighting and then it turned into bashing  

@praka the OSS will survive dont worry MS is not so ruthless they let apple survive urs is not even a legal entity, also i heard in some MS interview that MS has a whole laboratory set up for OSS where they study OSS (find patent infringements ) ...


----------



## vish786 (Jun 23, 2007)

ok guys now stop fighting, earlier members started fighting for which language to choose as National, then they started on religion, next on MAC and windows, and now on windows and linux, and next is MAC and linux and i dont want this to happen.

from now on nobody is fighting, even if somebody tells about linux or windows or mac, nobody should reply to that post... is that clear. 

i know their is a fight section in digit forum, but just stop it.


----------



## iMav (Jun 23, 2007)

ur new to the forums boy .... tried that already but salesman and believers prefer spreading FUDs and hi-jacking threads

windows, linux, mac ke jhakdge digit forum ki parampara hai ...


----------



## vish786 (Jun 23, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> ur new to the forums boy .... tried that already but salesman and believers prefer spreading FUDs and hi-jacking threads
> 
> windows, linux, mac ke jhakdge digit forum ki parampara hai ...


i'm member of some forums but i have never seen people fighting like so badly, not only for softwares but other things also.  

 i guess this is becoz its complete indian forum. "Diversity in Unity"


----------



## Avatar (Jun 23, 2007)

aryayush said:
			
		

> I will have you know that I used a pirated version of Windows XP for five years and always had it patched up to date directly from Microsoft's official, built-in software update system. Now, I have Vista installed on my MacBook Pro and when I boot into it (wow, I haven't booted into it for more than two months now!), I download all the updates without a hitch. And yes, it is pirated.


 
Seems like you are too happy using your pirated copy.  
Yes most users are aware of the fact of bypassing windows genuine validation. Bypassing activation etc provides you with latest updates and that is as secure as the orignal copy. But, The context in which i made the statement need not to be explained further.




			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> It _is_ true. There are threads all over this forum that have people reporting serious issues with Windows and market analysts predicting its doom and whatnot, *but you'll never see me posting useless remarks* against Windows in such threads. On the other hand, run a search and visit just about any thread related to Apple on this forum and see the posts within. You'll know what I mean.


 
I think the remark i quoted came from you, but lets leave that behind . I don't have enough time for searching the old threads, but i will make my opinion about others from what i read now on. 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> We are being off-topic. I just wanted to correct shantanu about a pirated version of Windows being any less secure than the legit version.


 
And i think he is right, if you dont consider the bypass thing. But hey, if you are a pirate there is no shame left in going a step ahead and using the wga bypass as well. Then its as good as legit , no difference.



			
				eddie said:
			
		

> I didn't want to include any flames in this post but I just couldn't resist myself replying to this comment...because sir he is not stupid unlike a few others. Points and winks


 
Didn't get you  , if it was a joke i wanna know  .


----------



## eddie (Jun 23, 2007)

vish786 said:
			
		

> @eddie and @ praka123
> 
> the best way of replying them is just ignore them and dont reply, no matter how much u tell them, they will not get convinced.


 I understand what you are saying but if we keep silent on such "studies" then we unintentionally create a sentiment that the claims made in them are true.



			
				Avatar said:
			
		

> Didn't get you  , if it was a joke i wanna know  .


 You wanna know "IF" it was a joke? LOL!  Next thing I'll have to do is explain it to you in a 100 words essay?


----------



## iMav (Jun 23, 2007)

^^ same 2 same


----------



## Avatar (Jun 23, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> I assume u can understand this:
> M$ is a multi billion company which can make things the way they want to.
> that was with my first statement=*I am afraid* of Microsoft the company.
> can you single handedly carry a threat from M$ or for that matter _any_ big company?
> they already did harm FOSS community.care to know -the patent infringement thingy they just brought itself shows their motive.It in itself made innocent users to thing Linux is illegal?.


 
hmmm, hmmm hmmm hmm. ya.
You wrote the same thing in last post. hmm..





			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> Microsoft is a cunning cheat still alive bcoz of *such people who believes that M$ rules!?*
> I am optimistic about FOSS.more and more people are going the FOSS and Linux way whether u dont give a damn1 or what
> get over it dude!,there are people who uses Linux and many other alternate OS too.


 
And those 'such people' use MS products because they want to, some continue to use them be cause they are happy with it while some switch over to other stuff which they think is better. How this makes MS still so evil? If some people believe in MS these is a reason for them to, similar to you believing in Linux. 





			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> I am optimistic about FOSS.more and more people are going the FOSS and Linux way whether u dont give a damn1 or what


 
And when did i say i was President of US and me giving/not giving a damn abt something will effect millions!! people are free to choose their way, as i said before. I am not here to convince people to join my religion. 



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> get over it dude!,there are people who uses Linux and many other alternate OS too.


 
Just got over it  , I am surprised to know that people use linux and other options. Also just noticed that the forum has thread dedicated to open source full of threads.



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> *Linux is chosen by people*,and ran by community for that matter who believes in Open Source is better.


 
Oh that rhyms, can be made into a good ad. Or maybe it already is a ad. good



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> Did anywhere i said* M$ killed* FOSS or Linux?


 
No you actually never did (specially the text in *bold underline*) , and why are you asking me this?  

From where the extra *'ed'* in *'M$ Killed'* came from , if you are not aware you have changed the meaning. I suggest you to read the previous posts again then you will know what you said and what not.  




			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> I am pointing to the gigantic monopoly corporation which is still trying to get GNU/Linux OS out from people's view.


 
But you just said in your post _" more and more people are going the FOSS and Linux way" _. So i assume they (MS) are failing in their motive and you should not be worried. But why it does not look so from your posts  .



			
				eddie said:
			
		

> IYou wanna know "IF" it was a joke? LOL!  Next thing I'll have to do is explain it to you in a 100 words essay?


 
Yes i want to know even 'if' it was a joke or just some nonsesnse, ok just kidding got it. I hope you were not doing the 'point and wink' thing in front of a mirror.


----------



## aryayush (Jun 23, 2007)

Avatar said:
			
		

> I think the remark i quoted came from you


... in a thread where such a discussion was already going on. There is a lot of difference between hijacking threads and posting your opinion (however smug it might sound) where it is supposed to be posted.

Anyway, let us not indulge in this anymore. Being friendly with everyone is beneficial to all of us.


----------



## ~Phenom~ (Jun 23, 2007)

I would have never posted that comment , If I would have known That it will turn technology news section to fight club.


----------



## eddie (Jun 24, 2007)

Avatar said:
			
		

> I hope you were not doing the 'point and wink' thing in front of a mirror.


 You can be rest assured that I was not...but who I was pointing towards is still anyone's guess


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 24, 2007)

HMM....

Mehul, plz lock the thread. There is no point trying to show the Lingeeks & Macboys the truth. While the Linux, mac & Windows truth is already out there for anyone to see.

Linux guys, if you don't have anything better to do then fighting here, then learn something from kalpik who actually does something for Linux

Macboys........ah forget it

Winguys - Leave it yaar, we are already enjoying whatever we want the way we want, on the computer we want. Let them be afraid & fight....who cares, in the end Porn prevails....woops I mean, computing prevails


----------



## shantanu (Jun 24, 2007)

aryayush said:
			
		

> Oh, so the non-genuine versions somehow become less secure than the genuine ones? That's a new one.


 
oh really! you are the one great guy saying that Pirated is as well good as Genuine. MY god.. Where were you when god was distributing some Common Knowledge power.. What kind of Idiotic Thing you said, do you think ever.. my god.. Read some articles on how Pirated Software puts you at risk.. there are hundreds of articles and facts related.. i wonder how you are even thinking of computers.. 

Some Common points :

A> Pirated softwares are compiled up (either in Zip, RAR or other formats) by Anonymous People.. you dont know who..

B> there can be viruses in those packs. 

C> they aren't approved by the company.

D> No future support or Update by the company.

E> Read some things on google or atleast on M$ website (coz i dont think apple or Apple Fans are having any sense about piracy..)

PIRATED SOFTWARE PUTS YOU AT RISK.. by Spywares, Malwares and Viruses..

i think everyone knows this , but you know what .. you just want to Bull $hit here.. so you write this BS..


----------



## aryayush (Jun 24, 2007)

shantanu said:
			
		

> A> Pirated softwares are compiled up (either in Zip, RAR or other formats) by Anonymous People.. you dont know who..


You can download a full fledged retail version of the operating system and then activate it with a crack. The only flaws are the ones that are there in the product itself and they'll be there in the genuine version too.



			
				shantanu said:
			
		

> B> there can be viruses in those packs.


You can always scan them before using them. But, of course, viruses are almost a property of Windows and it is difficult to avoid them anyway.



			
				shantanu said:
			
		

> C> they aren't approved by the company.


That does not compromise the security of the software in any way whatsoever.



			
				shantanu said:
			
		

> D> No future support or Update by the company.


Support does not make the software more secure. As for updates, if you know how to pirate well, you can enable fully automatic updating as it is on the retail legit version, like I have.


I am not condoning the act of piracy here but this is the truth that genuine Windows Vista does not offer a shred of better security than the pirated version, if installed and activated expertly. They are, in all respects, identical to each other. Moral and ethical issues are not to be taken into consideration.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 24, 2007)

I just wanted to be a spectator bu Arya's stupidity gave me a good morning laugh 



			
				aryayush said:
			
		

> You can download a full fledged retail version of the operating system and then activate it with a crack. The only flaws are the ones that are there in the product itself and they'll be there in the genuine version too.


Activate it with a crack

1) Piracy

2) You don't know what the crack patches or breaks

3) You don't trust MS, but you are ready to trust a Virus writer?



> You can always scan them before using them. But, of course, viruses are almost a property of Windows and it is difficult to avoid them anyway.


Lolz...when did cracks started coming under the category of Virus. Boy I can give you an exe or an app (for mac) which will remove all .mp3 files from your computer. oh & you can anti-virus check it too 



> That does not compromise the security of the software in any way whatsoever.


Holey....    Shantanu, tell him yaar, tell him how patching an exe changes the internal code which might lead to memory leaks & open flaws. This is how a virus works boy. 



> *Support does not make the software more secure*. As for updates, if you know how to pirate well, you can enable fully automatic updating as it is on the retail legit version, like I have.


So, Apple & Microsoft who release monthly updates don't make there OS secure. What a gr8 logic.


----------



## comrade (Jun 24, 2007)

shantanu said:
			
		

> oh really! you are the one great guy saying that Pirated is as well good as Genuine. MY god.. Where were you when god was distributing some Common Knowledge power.. What kind of Idiotic Thing you said, do you think ever.. my god.. Read some articles on how Pirated Software puts you at risk.. there are hundreds of articles and facts related.. i wonder how you are even thinking of computers..
> 
> Some Common points :
> 
> ...



pirated can very well function as genuine....
a) who cares whether u know the people or not? i never met gates & so shuldnt i download & use microsoft products? u know what sometime patched produts perform better than the original one..with all annoys such as update nag..etc been removed.
b)antivirus -resident protection(either u get that free or pirate that one too)
c)never bothered
d)u get updated software from ur regular so & so sites+forums bfore u actually get updates from ur software or from the vendor site...
e)then why do genuine users still install spybot search&destroy/adware in their systems?


----------



## shantanu (Jun 24, 2007)

Well for arya's Stupidity.. i may say. that he is talking pirated openly in the forum.. if we leave that too then also let me tell you arya as GX said about the cracling and patching thing, i dont think you would know about a single thing related, so i wont waste time on giving you some quotable lines.. for you its just that you are a wasted kid with nothing to do around, other then fooling here with your baseless comments..




			
				comrade said:
			
		

> pirated can very well function as genuine....
> a) who cares whether u know the people or not? i never met gates & so shuldnt i download & use microsoft products? u know what sometime patched produts perform better than the original one..with all annoys such as update nag..etc been removed.
> b)antivirus -resident protection(either u get that free or pirate that one too)
> c)never bothered
> ...



offf well.. i think for you its ok to use pirated, it wont do me a good if you use pirated or original- it will just effect you.. and BTW as i said in the beginning of the thread (if you read the whole thread) that i use my Windows XP & Vista without any AV or IS or any adware blocker.. its just Defender in Vista ( i think you must be knowing that its Windows Default security program)(boxed in Vista)
and nothing in XP.. ( i just installed Defender in it too and thats enough for me) with regular updates from m$ server.. its kind of good for me .. and will be in future..

and all other points you claimed are baseless , so there is no point clearing them isnt it..? 

well i always say BE GENUINE ,BUY GENUINE. and guys who give a blunt answer to support piracy are  themselves so PIRATED(non-genunine) that they think its a superior thing to support piracy.. 

SNF Arya : Please try to learn something and then talk about cracking...


----------



## praka123 (Jun 24, 2007)

Avatar said:
			
		

> hmmm, hmmm hmmm hmm. ya.
> You wrote the same thing in last post. hmm..


 I dont know what is wrong with saying the point correctly.it seems you are agreeing with me that Open source will grow. so when are u installing Ubuntu or Gentoo or Debian


			
				Avatar said:
			
		

> And those 'such people' use MS products because they want to, some continue to use them be cause they are happy with it while some switch over to other stuff which they think is better. How this makes MS still so evil? If some people believe in MS these is a reason for them to, similar to you believing in Linux.


first of all understand what M$ is doing to FOSS in this simple search result:it shows,How evil is M$-dev!l's own company:
*www.google.co.in/search?num=50&hl=en&safe=off&q=+Microsoft++linux&btnG=Search&meta=
UNIX /Linux are 100 times better than what windows kernel or WIN NT(Vista too) Kernel offers-Why are u whining?.YOu  are such a misinformed.infact UNIX/Linux are famous most for their security and reliability unlike Windows series of OS.
if u dont believe Linux kernel superiority-just read this:
Linux kernel vs Vista @:
*Kernel Comparison: Linux (2.6.21) versus Windows (Vista)*


^Is this another reason that people be informed that there are better OS available that too powered by open source.
M$ is evil-as the 4th time am quoting-U dont know the history of microsoft-what it is doing with rival companies and Operating Systems.When Linux first gained a big part of server market(RHEL for eg) M$ understood they cant fight back with a better system.so they pumped money to SCO UNIX-a proprietory UNIX company to Bully Linux users to pay for "some codes" used in Linux kernel-but they cant prove.as it turns out to be M$ marketing strategy- FUD.



			
				Avatar said:
			
		

> And when did i say i was President of US and me giving/not giving a damn abt something will effect millions!! people are free to choose their way, as i said before. I am not here to convince people to join my religion.


 Aha! This is not a religion -just a movement-let people knows it?why?FOSS dont have Ads running on MTV or any channel like for "wow" VIsta-the FOSS/Linux Mantra just propagates through boards like these.let FOSS too grow 


			
				Avatar said:
			
		

> Just got over it  , I am surprised to know that people use linux and other options. Also just noticed that the forum has thread dedicated to open source full of threads.


 Now you know that there is open source section too in this forum-Hope you too be there-we miss you-dont take this talk-you are Welcome to FOSS.



			
				Avatar said:
			
		

> But you just said in your post _" more and more people are going the FOSS and Linux way" _. So i assume they (MS) are failing in their motive and you should not be worried. But why it does not look so from your posts  .


 Dude,ur such an english dictation expert- 
I Just cleared the wrong idea ur just posted in previous thread.so i think it feels ur too confused to read the lines.I can remember @eddie's siggie turns true now;eh? 
M$ is evil as it is always.I urge you to read below sites:
*getgnulinux.org
*whylinuxisbetter.net
^Hope u be in Open Source section soon.really what is wrong in trying Linux?The GUI effects of beryl/compiz are mind-blowing taken that many people think VIsta is for Aero effects.remember Linux is way better in productivity too.do u know that Vista bundles DRM?
You can watch Vista vs Beryl here in youtube:
*www.metacafe.com/watch/434675/windows_vista_aero_vs_linux_ubuntu_beryl/
You're Welcome.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 24, 2007)

Prakash, you really have no idea how business is done. I posted a big example of burger shop but u overlooked it. What else can we expect something from you & arya who have the truth in front of them yet they don't see it. Thats called ignorance.


----------



## comrade (Jun 24, 2007)

shantanu said:
			
		

> offf well.. i think for you its ok to use pirated, it wont do me a good if you use pirated or original- it will just effect you.. and BTW as i said in the beginning of the thread (if you read the whole thread) that i use my Windows XP & Vista without any AV or IS or any adware blocker.. its just Defender in Vista ( i think you must be knowing that its Windows Default security program)(boxed in Vista)
> and nothing in XP.. ( i just installed Defender in it too and thats enough for me) with regular updates from m$ server.. its kind of good for me .. and will be in future..
> 
> and all other points you claimed are baseless , so there is no point clearing them isnt it..?
> ...



Well it seems u r trying to tell us that antivirus/antispyware products in the market are only meant for pirated users and not meant for genuine users….ok well Symantec..mcafee…shutdown ur firms plz
The benefit that u get bcoz of genuine soft is only satisfaction (that u bought genuine)…& u pay money to let them come with newer version s with more & more bloatwares.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 24, 2007)

Actually Symantec & Mcfee would have gone out of business, if Vista 64bit would have released with locked kernel. 

Thats why they sued MS by saing "MS, you are not allowed to make Windows secure, We will do that with our slow, buggy & resource hogging softwares"


----------



## comrade (Jun 24, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Actually Symantec & Mcfee would have gone out of business, if Vista 64bit would have released with locked kernel.
> 
> Thats why they sued MS by saing "MS, you are not allowed to make Windows secure, We will do that with our slow, buggy & resource hogging softwares"



yes they are...but still oldies prefer the products from wither of these companies..like @ my work place where ppl dont know abt kaspersky or nod32.
btw what is locked kernel? can u throw some points on it


----------



## Avatar (Jun 24, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> HMM....
> 
> Mehul, plz lock the thread. There is no point trying to show the Lingeeks & Macboys the truth. While the Linux, mac & Windows truth is already out there for anyone to see.


 
And what is the truth? The truth is that every option has its drawbacks and no one here seems to swollow that truth about hi choice. Why don't all forum members make a list of benifits and limitations of all the major options available? That will really help someone new to make his decisicion according to what features he needs or not.




			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Winguys - Leave it yaar,* we are already enjoying whatever we want the way we want*, *on the computer we want*. Let them be afraid & fight....who cares, in the end Porn prevails....woops I mean, computing prevails


 
Same can be said for Linux users , maybe for mac too.



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> I dont know what is wrong with saying the point correctly.it seems you are agreeing with me that Open source will grow. so when are u installing Ubuntu or Gentoo or Debian.


 
And when did i say open source will not grow? Are you on drugs? its you who is so afraid of MS and keep whining all over the thread.  

About installing Ubuntu i dont need a suggestion specially from you. My other computer has ubuntu installed, thank you very much. 




			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> first of all understand what M$ is doing to FOSS in this simple search result:it shows,How evil is M$-dev!l's own company:
> *www.google.co.in/search?num=50&hl=en&safe=off&q=+Microsoft++linux&btnG=Search&meta=
> UNIX /Linux are 100 times better than what windows kernel or WIN NT(Vista too) Kernel offers-*Why are u whining? *YOu are such a misinformed.infact UNIX/Linux are famous most for their security and reliability unlike Windows series of OS.
> if u dont believe Linux kernel superiority-just read this:
> ...


 
You are the one who is *whining **.* Just read the previous posts and you will know who burnt his calories while writing hate filled posts.

Don't tell me what is 100 time better or not, go and preach within your cult . i am fully capable of choosing what i feel is better for my daily home/professional needs.




			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> Aha! This is not a religion -just a movement-let people knows it?why?FOSS dont have Ads running on MTV or any channel like for "wow" VIsta-the FOSS/Linux Mantra just propagates through boards like these.let FOSS too grow .


 
Then Mr. you are totally representing the wrong image of the movement by whining here and spreading it like a religion. If someone in my knowledge wanted to know more about linux , you wont be the guy i will be sending him to get help. 




			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> Now you know that there is open source section too in this forum-Hope you too be there-we miss you-dont take this talk-you are Welcome to FOSS.


 
Yes, just like i knew about the existance of Linux yesterday. 
Holy Sh1t!! India is on the map of the world, i never knew  . Dude i seriously need to learn things.  




			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> Dude,ur such an english dictation expert-
> *I Just cleared the wrong idea ur just posted in previous thread*.so *i think it feels ur too confused to read the lines*.I can remember @eddie's siggie turns true now;eh?


 
No sir you just messed your clear idea (if you had any). I have no right to bash your grammer abilities (as mine too are not good), i can take a post with spelling mistakes but grammatical errors indeed make it confusinng.




			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> *M$ is evil as it is always*.I urge you to read below sites:
> *getgnulinux.org
> *whylinuxisbetter.net


 
Your posts(ads) are as bad as any Microsoft advertisement on MTV.

But may be not as bad as new PC vs MAC ads , they are not anymore funny. we don't laugh with them , we laugh on them.



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> ^Hope u be in Open Source section soon.really* what is wrong in trying Linux?*The GUI effects of beryl/compiz are mind-blowing taken that many people think VIsta is for Aero effects.remember Linux is way better in productivity too.do u know that Vista bundles DRM?
> You can watch Vista vs Beryl here in youtube:
> *www.metacafe.com/watch/434675/windows_vista_aero_vs_linux_ubuntu_beryl/
> You're Welcome.


 
What is wrong in accepting the fact that some people use both Windows and linux. Prefrence of GUI depends on personal taste , you cant tell others which is better for them, so lets leave this. 
Do you know that Vista will be able to play DRM'd content "as well as" non DRM stuff. So whats the problem when i have this option.


----------



## abhijangda (Jun 24, 2007)

It's the truth.


----------



## praka123 (Jun 24, 2007)

@Avatar:Yes,it is the right of the user to choose which OS he is comfortable with.but what is wrong in saying that there are alternative OS?there is nothing wrong in using what all OS ur better off.I just wanted to stay clear of the FUD of the title of this thread.thats it.
I think ur rather making things confusing 


			
				Avatar said:
			
		

> Your posts(ads) are as bad as any Microsoft advertisement on MTV.
> 
> But may be not as bad as new PC vs MAC ads , they are not anymore funny. we don't laugh with them , we laugh on them.


VIsta "WoW" too sux.
yeah this too sux- Vista  advertised as OS Nirvana by M$ folks.


			
				Avatar said:
			
		

> Do you know that Vista will be able to play DRM'd content "as well as" non DRM stuff. So whats the problem when i have this option.


there is a problem for common unsuspecting users.that is posted at #*95*

 the question is why does we need DRM which mutilates the rights of a user?DRM is a menace.Vista incorporated it simply not for the convenience of its users.It promotes DRM-and I Am FUlly against this.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 24, 2007)

prakash said:
			
		

> do u know that Vista bundles DRM?



*1) Vista has DRM only if you play HD DVD or Blue Ray movies.

2) Vista DRM doesn't affects your existing non-DRM files

3) On Windows Vista you can play both DRM & non-DRM content. On Linux & Mac currently you cannot play these titles.*


----------



## praka123 (Jun 24, 2007)

1)DRM means :


> *What's wrong with Microsoft Windows Vista?*
> 
> by           John Sullivan                       —                             last modified                  2007-04-16 18:53
> 
> ...


 *badvista.fsf.org/what-s-wrong-with-microsoft-windows-vista
^ Hope I explained things correctly for uninitated


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 24, 2007)

You call that explanation ...lolz. I will post my reply in evening. Exam time


----------



## mediator (Jun 24, 2007)

Repeated thread!
*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59907

Thread reported!  Just kidding!


----------



## iMav (Jun 24, 2007)

arre yaar iska drm ka rona phir chalu ho gaya ... hey praka just give me 1 drm locked song please ... i dont know how it sounds like how its icon looks like ... coz in india it hasnt affected any 1 other than ur imagnation


----------



## praka123 (Jun 24, 2007)

abbey.....DRM yahaan nahi hei?to yashrajfilms kya kar raha hei? they got DRMed songs launched in India along with dear old M$.bheje mein aaya ke?
*www.techshout.com/software/2007/16/yash-raj-films-launches-video-drm-platform-using-microsofts-net-and-other-technologies/

*riyaz.bitinc.co.in/archives/2007/04/desi-drm-by-yash-raj-films/

now DRM "side effects" starts showing in Vista:


> *Windows Media Center DRM - Now With More Bugs!*
> 
> *May 23, 2007*
> 
> ...


 *www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/005269.php


----------



## iMav (Jun 24, 2007)

how much of a difference did it make to u ... 

have a look at the link urself and let the image load and then read something in the brakets


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 24, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> We all know who all guys illegally installed MAC OS X on some pc


 If arya can run windows on his mac , then i can run Mac on my PC , SImple


----------



## praka123 (Jun 24, 2007)

wow!piracy jindabaad?eh 
DRM is not supported by Micro$oft:Wrong-they are interested in it!


> ................................
> So, if the hardware people hate this inflicted pain, why do we have it? Two reasons, MS and the hardware vendors themselves abdicating their responsibilities to you the consumer. MS is evil, the rest of them sold you out for their profits. Ironically, they all lost, as did we the users.
> The root of this crappy DRM infection is Microsoft. It is the driving force here. This has nothing to do with protecting content, as we keep pointing out, there has never been a single thing that has had a DRM infection applied that didn't end up cracked on the net in hours. DRM is about walled gardens and control.
> He who controls the DRM infection controls the market. DRM is about preventing you from doing anything with the devices without paying the gatekeeper a fee. This is what MS wants, nothing less than a slice of everything watched, listened to or discussed from now on. DRM prevents others from playing there, thanks to the DMCA and other anti-consumer laws.
> ...


read full article:
*www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=38926


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 24, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> wow!piracy jindabaad?eh


Not exactly , my dad has an iMac(at Office) so in short i'm only using my licensed copy of Mac 

Also , it was just for testing and i don't have it installed currenty .


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 24, 2007)

> abbey.....DRM yahaan nahi hei?to yashrajfilms kya kar raha hei? they got DRMed songs launched in India along with dear old M$.bheje mein aaya ke?
> *www.techshout.com/software/20...-technologies/



Now you tell me, how many people know about it? how many people buy it in India? what is the market effect of this method of Yash Raj films? And does it matter in india?



> There was some Slashdot buzz earlier this week about Microsoft Windows Media Center users suddenly facing restrictions forbidding playback of recorded analog cable TV content. Was DRM smuggled along with an "update" into unsuspecting users' machines?



Slashdot is what? a Linux fanboy site, so what do u expect from them.



> In fact, Windows Media Center has always obeyed CGMS-A, a DRM system that TV stations can use.



So, *is it wrong to support DRM in MCE of Vista, if the TV Companies want it? *Its not Microsoft who is making this DRM. It is RIAA & MPAA who are government bodies, whose order Microsoft must follow if they want to do business in USA. *The broadcast companies in USA uses such DRM & if MS wants the consumer to use there computer as a TV, then they must follow what the MPAA & RIAA wants them to follow.

*


> Tech creators are free to build DVRs and other devices that ignore CGMS-A signals and create restriction-free recordings, but Microsoft opted to kowtow to content providers and infect Media Centers with the DRM anyway.



Microsoft is a company which answers to the government. Tech creators are single users. MPAA & RIAA can sue MS billions for not supporting DRM in Windows, but how many single users they are going to sue for making such hacks.?


> o, if the hardware people hate this inflicted pain, why do we have it? Two reasons, MS and the hardware vendors themselves abdicating their responsibilities to you the consumer. MS is evil, the rest of them sold you out for their profits. Ironically, they all lost, as did we the users.
> The root of this crappy DRM infection is Microsoft.



This was written by a Linux fanboy, right? . ya, it is very credible & unbiased article (Yaakk...thu)
*www.techshout.com/software/2007/16...-using-microsofts-net-and-other-technologies/


----------



## eddie (Jun 24, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> It is RIAA & MPAA who are government bodies, whose order Microsoft must follow if they want to do business in USA.


...and according to which orders of RIAA & MPAA was Microsoft being forbidden to sell their OS until they included DRM in it?





> MPAA & RIAA can sue MS billions for not supporting DRM in Windows,


...and what law would that come under?

*You've been proven to be a disgusting liar time and again but you just won't improve. I wonder how you sleep at night after telling so many lies through out the day...but then I guess you have gone so low that it just doesn't bother you any more. Isn't it?*


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 24, 2007)

> ...and according to which orders of RIAA & MPAA was Microsoft being forbidden to sell their OS until they included DRM in it?



According to the Digital Millenium Copyright act, if Microsoft wants to support TV recording in there OS, then they must follow the rules imposed by RIAA & MPAA which forbids any such recording unless the user pays a license fees or unless he plays only on his single PC. 

Same goes with Blue Ray & HD DVD. If MS wants to support these in there OS then they must follow the rules imposed by MPAA & RIAA by supporting AAAC in Vista with HDMI connection etc else these media won't play.

Go do some research first.


----------



## eddie (Jun 24, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> According to the Digital Millenium Copyright act, if Microsoft wants to support TV recording in there OS, then they must follow the rules imposed by RIAA & MPAA which forbids any such recording unless the user pays a license fees or unless he plays only on his single PC.


People are already doing their TV recordings without any DRM or Vista-MCE. DMCA didn't force Microsoft to include DRM...it was their "choice" not a necessity! Microsoft could have easily released Vista without DRM and none of the clauses in DMCA could have stopped them. Stop lying!





> Same goes with Blue Ray & HD DVD. If MS wants to support these in there OS then they must follow the rules imposed by MPAA & RIAA by supporting AAAC in Vista with HDMI connection etc else these media won't play.


 Microsoft had the power (nearly 90% desktop market) and they could have refused to include DRM in their OS. This would have caused severe pressure on Hollywood companies to rethink their strategy but Microsoft didn't want to do that. Rather they wanted to create a platform for these companies to exclusively support them and this was pure business...no compulsions!





> Go do some research first.


Talks gx_saurav


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 24, 2007)

eddie said:
			
		

> People are already doing their TV recordings without any DRM or Vista-MCE. DMCA didn't force Microsoft to include DRM...it was their "choice" not a necessity! Microsoft could have easily released Vista without DRM and none of the clauses in DMCA could have stopped them. Stop lying!


Microsoft also released Vista with integrated search & they got sued. Stop lying 

Any OS which is made in USA needs to comply with DMCA, else it won't be allowed to sale by the government. i hope you know how much arrogant EU is acting over Vista for silly things such as integrated PDF Search. Microsoft is a company who has to answer to the court & Government to which they pay tax. It is not a community OS with no governing body. Sorry, you don't know how business is done & according to u, Linux is the only possible way to do business.

Hey, lets think of it this way. Leopard has no DRM, right. (thats as far as we know right now). Lets see if Apple will be able to support HD DVD in Leopard without DRM or not.



> Microsoft had the power (nearly 90% desktop market) and they could have refused to include DRM in their OS. This would have caused severe pressure on Hollywood companies to rethink their strategy but Microsoft didn't want to do that.



Microsoft has the power, nearly 90% desktop market but still they are not allowed to integrate a media player in Windows Vista for Europe, still they are not allowed to integrate search feature in there OS, still they are not allowed to make the OS secure by locking the kernel from exterior intrusion. 

Microsoft is big. But Hollywood & RIAA is bigger. Wait, r u thinking that the total money that MS has is more then the money combined by adding the major recording labels . Eddie, I seriously doubt your real life analytical skills now. You just see Linux cos it works for u. Not for others. U have a particular mindset made which cannot be changed. I know I know, MS only gives jobs to those who are deserving


----------



## sakumar79 (Jun 24, 2007)

@praka123, reading your quoted text from the Inquirer website, I am not sure I get it... DRM is a mechanism proposed by MPAA/RIAA to protect their interests... Being in a nascent stage of implemention, it may be messy in Vista. But why are you blaming MS for it? And for that matter, why are you against it? DRM is adopted to reduce piracy of digital content... Its current implementation is messy and makes it difficult for the end user, but it is still in a nascent phase.

When you purchase a software (license), you are legally allowed (typically) to install and run it on one computer only at a time. Thats the law... If you install it on multiple computers, you are breaking the law... When you buy a casette or CD, you are allowed to use that CD or casette anywhere, but you are allowed to take a copy only for backup purposes and not for distribution. Similarly, DRM tries to make sure that when you purchase digital media, you have a restricted usage field. Due to the rampant piracy going on, the music/movie industry is forced to take severe steps that affect the end user... The user, having lived a life of luxury (in the context of being used to copy the digital media freely), is now forced to look for pirated means of luxury or live within restraint. While the main aim of DRM is to reduce the piracy and still allow users a certain degree of freedom, it is clear from current situation that DRM is not able to reduce piracy that much, while it is cramping the end user's freedom a lot... You need to give it time to figure out a balance. 

I am not sure where the author got the point that MS is pushing for DRM. May be it is right, maybe it is not. But there is no concrete evidence that he gives that makes me believe it. Here is a different view on it: *www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=printArticleBasic&articleId=9005047 - a couple of extracts:
1. In a nutshell, this is the dilemma Microsoft faces as it prepares to launch Windows Vista. By any standard, Vista's new DRM capabilities -- aimed at protecting the rights of content owners by placing limits on how consumers can use digital media -- hardly qualify as a selling point; after all, it's hard to sing the praises of technology designed to make life harder for its users.
2. many of Vista's DRM technologies exist not because Microsoft wanted them there; rather, they were developed at the behest of movie studios, record labels and other high-powered intellectual property owners. "Microsoft was dealing here with a group of companies that simply don't trust the hardware [industry]," Rosoff said. "They wanted more control and more security than they had in the past" -- and if Microsoft failed to accommodate them, "they were prepared to walk away from Vista" by withholding support for next-generation DVD formats and other high-value content

Not that I agree with it completely, and it may be that MS will try to utilise this DRM to try to monopolise digital media content, but I am posting it to show that there is always a different explanation possible. If you keep a closed mind set that "anything that MS does is evil", I cant help you.

Also, implying that since DRM doesnt work with crack being available, it need not be provided at all is like saying that for software where crack is available, the software company should make it available legally for free... It makes no sense... DRM is a mechanism under progress... Its nowhere near perfect, and never will be perfect (just like everything in the universe)... But its there for the purpose of protecting the rights to the Intellectual Property that is the digital media. And it probably will be here for a long time in the years to come, learning and adapting all the while.

Arun


----------



## iMav (Jun 24, 2007)

^^ thats because he has nothing else to bash ms with so its drm drm dmr ... hes been saying it since the day he first read that drm is in vista ... he hasnt found anything else wrong with vista


----------



## eddie (Jun 24, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Microsoft also released Vista with integrated search & they got sued. Stop lying


...and how is that comparable to this situation? 


> Any OS which is made in USA needs to comply with DMCA, else it won't be allowed to sale by the government.


Yes and Microsoft even without DRM would not have broken ANY clause of DMCA while releasing Vista. They just needed to exclude recording capabilities and leave that to the user to use and decide. Just like how Windows XP was working. XP does not break any clause of DMCA and was selling fine but Microsoft is just trying to hide behind a pseudo support. It was their choice and not a compulsion...and we know why they took this choice.





> Sorry, you don't know how business is done & according to u, Linux is the only possible way to do business.


Yes...as I said earlier...you are just better than Donald Trump in carrying out business. Don't act like a kid...oh wait...you are not better than one in any case 


> Microsoft has the power, nearly 90% desktop market but still they are not allowed to integrate a media player in Windows Vista for Europe, still they are not allowed to integrate search feature in there OS, still they are not allowed to make the OS secure by locking the kernel from exterior intrusion.


Clearly you do not understand anything about Monopolistic Trade Practices. Time for you to read about them?





> Microsoft is big. But Hollywood & RIAA is bigger. Wait, r u thinking that the total money that MS has is more then the money combined by adding the major recording labels .


The point is not who is bigger but the point is that what market would the Hollywood have been left without Microsoft? Imagine a company with 90% control of market telling the Hollywood that they don't want to include a Viral technology. Either Hollywood can ease up their stance or they can forget Microsoft Windows as a platform on which they can run their DVDs. Do you think Hollywood is stupid enough to go against such a consumer power? You really need some economics lessons!





> Eddie, I seriously doubt your real life analytical skills now.


An overgrown kid who lies throughout his day is commenting on my "real life analytical skills". How soothing 


			
				sakumar79 said:
			
		

> -- and if Microsoft failed to accommodate them, "they were prepared to walk away from Vista" by withholding support for next-generation DVD formats and other high-value content


The point is that IF (and that is a big IF) those companies would have walked away then where could have they sold their content? Imagine 90% of digital market going straight out of their hands! Just imagine the severity of this situation. Can any business afford to lose 90% of their market? Microsoft had a chance to take the high road but what they did was to just follow their old pathway...lock down the users as much as possible! There is no different aspect to it.


----------



## iMav (Jun 24, 2007)

eddie as far as ur last comments and about wanting MS to play heavy handed against hollywood ur talking stupid and u know that .... hd dvd has already lost to a great extent against blu ray


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 24, 2007)

eddie said:
			
		

> ...and how is that comparable to this situation?  Yes and Microsoft even without DRM would not have broken ANY clause of DMCA while releasing Vista. They just needed to exclude recording capabilities and leave that to the user to use and decide. Just like how Windows XP was working. XP does not break any clause of DMCA and was selling fine but Microsoft is just trying to hide behind a pseudo support. It was their choice and not a compulsion...and we know why they took this choice.



I will say this in simple terms.

Windows XP has no TV recording capability by default. Windows XP MCE had this because the content provider in USA & Europe unlike India use set top boxes & they can encrypt there channel feeds to prevent any recording ability.

If MS wants to support TV Viewing in Windows via MCE, they must support this DRM.

If they are supporting this DRM of TV Channels then they must comply by the rules to let the user record the show, to see on his computer only ( .dvr-ms files)



> The point is not who is bigger but the point is that what market would the Hollywood have been left without Microsoft? Imagine a company with 90% control of market telling the Hollywood that they don't want to include a Viral technology. Either Hollywood can ease up their stance or they can forget Microsoft Windows as a platform on which they can run their DVDs.



This is the pinnacle of stupidity, you are saying that a company should go against the Governmant body? Dude, MS will be closed the next day. US Government will take there license back. OMG....you really don't know how business is done/



> Do you think Hollywood is stupid enough to go against such a consumer power? You really need some economics lessons!



USA & Europe has more TV, DVD Players & HD DVD players then computers. I hope u know this fact. According to Hollywood & RIAA the ideal way to see your movies & Audio CDs is to use TV & DVD Player & not the computer.

If you want to use computer then you cannot make & distribute copies. This is the law.

Microsoft cannot go against the law.



> How soothing The point is that IF (and that is a big IF) those companies would have walked away then where could have they sold their content? Imagine 90% of digital market going straight out of their hands! Just imagine the severity of this situation. Can any business afford to lose 90% of their market?



Have you ever been to Microsoft Tech Support? You will be amazed by the amount of stupidity the customers show. If it doesn't work on there computer they will simply use the TV & DVD player in which case Microsoft & Windows will loose a compelling feature for there product to sale. Hollywood & RIAA don't want you ideally to play content on computer. They want u to play it on TV with DVD player.


----------



## eddie (Jun 25, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> If they are supporting this DRM of TV Channels then they must comply by the rules to let the user record the show, to see on his computer only ( .dvr-ms files)


...and they could have easily by-passed this choice. XP is still being used by people around the world for TV viewing and recording WITHOUT DRM! This was not a compulsion but a choice from Microsoft.





> This is the pinnacle of stupidity,


Oh a person who spells government as governm*a*nt has a word like "pinnacle" in his vocabulary? Interesting  


> you are saying that a company should go against the Governmant body? Dude, MS will be closed the next day. US Government will take there license back.


A HA HA HA HA!!!  RIAA is a government body???? OMFG!!! Dude...you are so stupid that laughing at you hurts my ribs. You idiot...RIAA is "NO GOVERNMENT BODY". It is just an association of recording companies. They have NO RIGHTS whatsoever to revoke anyone's license or grant one to someone. Get some sense and facts before arguing you stupid man!!!





> OMG....you really don't know how business is done


Yes and you are just better than Donald Trump 


> If you want to use computer then you cannot make & distribute copies. This is the law.
> 
> Microsoft cannot go against the law.


So? How does that bring DRM into picture?





> If it doesn't work on there computer they will simply use the TV & DVD player in which case Microsoft & Windows will loose a compelling feature for there product to sale.


YES!!! Now you came to the exact point!!! Absolutely where I wanted you to come from the very beginning! This is what was there in the mind of Microsoft all along. It was money that was talking for them...no RIAA threats...no closing threats...no nothing. It was entirely a CHOICE and not a compulsion...like what Microsoft and Microidiots want us to believe.





> Hollywood & RIAA don't want you ideally to play content on computer. They want u to play it on TV with DVD player.


 Oh wow!!! This is so great...if the companies didn't want their content to be played on Microsoft's platform then they should have been happy that Windows didn't play the DVDs. Why would they sue then? Why would they think about becoming hostile against Microsoft?

*On one hand you say that Hollywood doesn't want their content to be played on PCs but on other one you say that they will sue Microsoft if it doesn't play? Are you making any sense to even yourself or are you just posting randomly without even thinking?*


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 25, 2007)

eddie said:
			
		

> ...and they could have easily by-passed this choice. XP is still being used by people around the world for TV viewing and recording WITHOUT DRM! This was not a compulsion but a choice from Microsoft.



Do you have some problem in understanding that Windows XP comes without any inbuilt TV Viewer or recording application. Those who are using XP are using some other recording application like Media Portal or Pinnacle TV Center or SageTV. Now whether these 3rd pary application support DRM or not is not the problem of MS. 

XP MCE supports inbuilt TV recording, because of which MS is forced to support the DRM standards used by TV Channels.



> Get some sense and facts before arguing you stupid man!!!



Hey, who went to DoJ recently to sue MS. Google right? Whats stopping RIAA & MPAA to sue MS.


> It was money that was talking for them...no RIAA threats...no closing threats...no nothing. It was entirely a CHOICE and not a compulsion...like what Microsoft and Microidiots want us to believe.



Microsoft had 2 choices, now act sane & tell me which they should have chosen

1) No DRM support resulting in the inability to play any TV content on MCE & loose market share of there business.

2) Support it, & let the user watch TV on the computer. Let the user use the computer the way they want.



> On one hand you say that Hollywood doesn't want their content to be played on PCs but on other one you say that they will sue Microsoft if it doesn't play?


*

I think you have some problem in reading text eddie. I never said Hollywood will sue MS if HD DVD doesn't play. If Vista has no support for AAAC then these disks won't play at all. Now, is it wrong to support a feature in an OS MS makes so that the consumer can play such content?
*

Every bussiness wants money. According to your logic Mandrive should be sued too cos they charge money for there Linux distribution which is available from other vendors for free.


----------



## eddie (Jun 25, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Hey, who went to DoJ recently to sue MS. Google right? Whats stopping RIAA & MPAA to sue MS.


The law! The law stops RIAA & MPAA from suing MS because there is no clause in DMCA that can "force" Microsoft to include DRM. Why Google went to DoJ? Go and read about the settlement and clauses that were signed by Microsoft in their antitrust case.





> Microsoft had 2 choices...
> 
> 1) No DRM support resulting in the inability to play any TV content on MCE & loose market share of there business.


*Exactly what I have been trying to hammer in your thick head all along!!! Microsoft had choices and no compulsions! They were not FORCED into their decision of including DRM but they chose to do it.* Now do you get the point? Now would you get down your horse that Microsoft was "forced" to include DRM in Vista?





> I think you have some problem in reading text eddie. I never said Hollywood will sue MS if HD DVD doesn't play. If Vista has no support for AAAC then these disks won't play at all. Now, is it wrong to support a feature in an OS MS makes so that the consumer can play such content?


...and did I say that Hollywood will sue if HD DVD doesn't play? Are you blind? I just wrote what you said..."that hollywood doesn't WANT PCs to play DVDs". Now if Microsoft had not included DRM then Hollywood would have got what they desired...i.e. "No playback of HD DVDs on PCs". Now what inclination would Hollywood or RIAA have for suing Microsoft?





> Every bussiness wants money. According to your logic Mandrive should be sued too cos they charge money for there Linux distribution which is available from other vendors for free.


 ...and did I say that earning money is bad? Did I say that Microsoft should distribute their OS for free? I just said that Microsoft chose to include DRM...and was not forced to include it. Now you get it in your stupidity filled head?


----------



## iMav (Jun 25, 2007)

microsoft did not choose to include drm it chose to include mce in vista rater than having it as a separate os ... eddie ur talking non-sense dude ...


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 25, 2007)

Lolz...no point in telling Eddie anything. According to him, it is wrong for MS to support a technology which no matter how pathetic, still prevails in the market.


----------



## praka123 (Jun 25, 2007)

sakumar79 said:
			
		

> @praka123, reading your quoted text from the Inquirer website, I am not sure I get it... DRM is a mechanism proposed by MPAA/RIAA to protect their interests... Being in a nascent stage of implemention, it may be messy in Vista. But why are you blaming MS for it? And for that matter, why are you against it? DRM is adopted to reduce piracy of digital content... Its current implementation is messy and makes it difficult for the end user, but it is still in a nascent phase.


DRM is crippling user privilages.in the name of fair use,these big monopoly is screwing its users follow DRM.it is like a root-kit in itself installed on ur vista.M$ wants to control u and they installed DRM on their own will not enforced by RIAA or whoever.as the article explains it pretty well.How can u trust M$?-there are enough anti-trust cases against them already.they can do whatever the way they want and US laws are accordingly changed!
piracy is a crime.but DRM is fscking sick thing.if ur a coder,u might be knowing how nice to incorporate a piece of code that will trace all the user's private datas and send it to u via internet?
DRM kills privacy too
there are anti-drm campaign running allover US and other countries.
*defectivebydesign.org


			
				sakumar79 said:
			
		

> When you purchase a software (license), you are legally allowed (typically) to install and run it on one computer only at a time. Thats the law... If you install it on multiple computers, you are breaking the law... When you buy a casette or CD, you are allowed to use that CD or casette anywhere, but you are allowed to take a copy only for backup purposes and not for distribution. Similarly, DRM tries to make sure that when you purchase digital media, you have a restricted usage field. Due to the rampant piracy going on, the music/movie industry is forced to take severe steps that affect the end user... The user, having lived a life of luxury (in the context of being used to copy the digital media freely), is now forced to look for pirated means of luxury or live within restraint. While the main aim of DRM is to reduce the piracy and still allow users a certain degree of freedom, it is clear from current situation that DRM is not able to reduce piracy that much, while it is cramping the end user's freedom a lot... You need to give it time to figure out a balance.
> 
> Arun


DRM is not the way to control piracy.who are they(M$,RIAA) to control us?it is upon us to not to promote piracy.but no way DRM can be justified.
i am skeptical about the future for windows users and others with this type of laws enforced (DMCA) 
there is one more thing more than recording industry or hollywood movies.that is ur own user privilages.that is questioned by DRM.this sort of  laws like DMCA needs to be removed.these are direct attack on users.
the main problem is there is a BIG EULA that many of windows users never readsif u have completely read EULA,u will rethink about VIsta or any windows.
the thing here is DRM is not a nice thing.It is a root-kit installed by OS company on ur system to watch what ur doing in ur system.
remember Sony DRM?
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Sony_BMG_CD_copy_protection_scandal
 the same can happen with vista too ? 
No answer than this VIsta sucks with DRM.i am no other way criticizing Vista oS.
Just cant bear DRM enforced by Microsoft.<-------the founders are evil that is


----------



## sakumar79 (Jun 25, 2007)

The article explains a lot of things, but without giving much proof... Dont make statements like "they can do whatever they want, and US laws are accordingly changed!" - Tell me what US law was changed because MS did whatever they wanted, even if it was originally against the law. And remember that MS makes the OS for the whole world. Are you saying that they are making every country to change the laws too? Thats ridiculous.

The DRM implementation may not be good and it can be hard for the user. It may be even a bit of infringement on your privacy. But imagine that it is implemented for years. In the years to come, it could have the ability to evolve into a more user-friendly implementation, and might end up  reducing piracy. Without giving an alternative implementation solution that can be more or at least equally effective, please dont go condemning the implementation.

There is a difference between Sonys rootkit and Vista's DRM. Sony did not inform beforehand of the rootkit whearas MS has informed that DRM is present in Vista before its release... Now, to what extent it invades one's privacy I dont know. If you are going to accuse the OS of tracking what you are doing and sending your private info back to MS, please elaborate (I havent used Vista and am still on XP only, so I dont have personal experience with it). Do you mean through DRM, it is collecting your personal info and sending it? You mean it was not possible earlier for them to track your personal info and send it if they wanted to? 

Arun


----------



## lalam (Jun 25, 2007)

Hmmmm haven't been on vista so don't know much but yep i'm a little surprise


----------



## praka123 (Jun 25, 2007)

sakumar79 said:
			
		

> The article explains a lot of things, but without giving much proof... Dont make statements like "they can do whatever they want, and US laws are accordingly changed!" - Tell me what US law was changed because MS did whatever they wanted, even if it was originally against the law. And remember that MS makes the OS for the whole world. Are you saying that they are making every country to change the laws too? Thats ridiculous.
> 
> The DRM implementation may not be good and it can be hard for the user. It may be even a bit of infringement on your privacy. But imagine that it is implemented for years. In the years to come, it could have the ability to evolve into a more user-friendly implementation, and might end up  reducing piracy. Without giving an alternative implementation solution that can be more or at least equally effective, please dont go condemning the implementation.
> 
> Arun


 US laws are not innovative atleast in this context.they allowed software patents,allowed M$ and RIAA to intrude users privacy.how the hell can it that M$ cant change US laws?eh?they are a capitalist country and there a single human being is not respected,but BIG corporations are.-=the reality is that.Laws can be changed and owned if u got money that is US.
I know there is useless defense against the reality i just posted above 
the history of M$ as a company is clearly shown with their FUD campaign against Opensource and Linux.
DRM cannot be tolerated whatever reasons or its "evolution" will be.
Dont wait to get it "evolved" kill it in its infancy itself.they crossed the limits already.idiots in US law making bodies and M$ bullying are the reasons that they still sells Vista with DRM.I am not against people buying or using Windows VIsta or any versions.it s their freedom.but I am against DRM incorporated On Vista whatever justification done for M$ to do this-sure this company doesnot respect it s users.they push  their damn EULA on U.thats it 
the resons you are saying is simply inclined to be as a M$ fan.NO to DRM at any cost.the original article did proved the reality.but yes,ppl are convined how "reliable" M$ are eh?Today DRM,tomorrow everything a user can have be are owned by M$ and Big corporates.each files u created on ur vista will be etched as "owned by M$" =next colorful future?


----------



## eddie (Jun 25, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Lolz...no point in telling Eddie anything. According to him, it is wrong for MS to support a technology which no matter how pathetic, still prevails in the market.


 lol! Just because you have been completely owned and all your points telling us about Microsoft being a victim of RIAA have been destroyed...you start posting these short stupidities? You are gx_saurav (read complete idiot) after all


----------



## iMav (Jun 25, 2007)

for the same reason why linux is patched for the same reason firefox is patched .... dude what kinda comment was that ... everyday new threats come out everyday patches have to be released its software what a lame comment ax3


----------



## chesss (Jun 25, 2007)

^^I think he wsa stressing on 'just after its release'


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 25, 2007)

^^^^ just after installing Ubuntu 7.04 I was asked to install 40 MB of updates


----------



## QwertyManiac (Jun 25, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> ^^^^ just after installing Ubuntu 7.04 I was asked to install 40 MB of updates


Oh god, you're so dumb. Did you install Ubuntu right on the day of its release? You must've done so after a month or something. And more importantly, Ubuntu updates your software and not the OS always, unlike Windows.  On Windows you just have a hard time roaming the start menu, opening all apps and going to Help > Check Updates in them. Meh.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 25, 2007)

Same way, MS releases update for there Vista OS & all the installed Microsoft products using Vista's inbuilt Microsoft Update engine. So, whats wrong in releasing updates as soon as the OS is out.

And plz....I hope u understand that Microsoft cannot provide updates for 3rd party products.


----------



## ChaiTan3 (Jun 25, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> And plz....I hope u understand that Microsoft cannot provide updates for 3rd party products.


Ubuntu provides a single application for updating all the softwares that u have installed. Whereas in windows you have to do that for each application individually


----------



## QwertyManiac (Jun 25, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Same way, MS releases update for there Vista OS & all the installed Microsoft products using Vista's inbuilt Microsoft Update engine. So, whats wrong in releasing updates as soon as the OS is out.
> 
> And plz....I hope u understand that Microsoft cannot provide updates for 3rd party products.



My point had nothing to do with Microsoft's Updates. I just couldn't take your stupid whining of downloading 40 MB of 'Optional Updates' Ubuntu gave you in order to provide you with the latest versions of the software you run. And you say it like if it were all nonsense. 

Gah, you just don't know what User-Friendly is. And you don't even know the difference between 'just after release' and 'just after installing'. Must I say the amount of MB I need to download if I install XP SP2 and connect online? Meh.

And about MS not being able to do that, they could be intelligent in making an Updater app to which software can communicate with and notify if they have an update available. Am sure that'd make things hell easier. 

But .. that's never been the point about Windows has it? It's always wanted to be THE ONE provider for all things crap, right from MS-Paint to Calculator.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 25, 2007)

QwertyManiac said:
			
		

> Ubuntu gave you in order to provide you with the latest versions of the software you run. And you say it like if it were all nonsense.



If Ubuntu does it, then it is ok to download 40 MB. But if Windows updates, does this then it is wrong. Kya logic hai.



> Gah, you just don't know what User-Friendly is. And you don't even know the difference between 'just after release' and 'just after installing'. Must I say the amount of MB I need to download if I install XP SP2 and connect online? Meh.



When was Windows XP SP2 released & when was ubuntu released? Do one thing, compare Ubuntu 7.04 to a latest fresh install of Windows Vista.



> And about MS not being able to do that, they could be intelligent in making an Updater app to which software can communicate with and notify if they have an update available. Am sure that'd make things hell easier.



I hope you know about FileHippo's Update checker or automatic update notification in various Windows Apps. Microsoft cannot take responsibility for 3rd party apps. If something breaks, MS will be held responsible.



> But .. that's never been the point about Windows has it?* It's always wanted to be THE ONE provider *for all things crap, right from MS-Paint to Calculator.



That would be Apple


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 25, 2007)

ChaiTan3 said:
			
		

> Ubuntu provides a single application for updating all the softwares that u have installed. Whereas in windows you have to do that for each application individually


that's because all applications that are installed on Ubuntu are maintained by Ubuntu Developers for the Ubuntu repository and thus they provide updates .

but Microsoft's doesn't maintain third party software , which is the responsibility of the Software publisher .

Also , according to Most propreitary EULA , only the Software publisher is allowed to publish and distribute updates , so this also legally restricts MS from publishing updates


----------



## QwertyManiac (Jun 25, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> If Ubuntu does it, then it is ok to download 40 MB. But if Windows updates, does this then it is wrong. Kya logic hai.


 What's your friggin problem with the word 'Optional' ? Never heard of it ? God.





			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> When was Windows XP SP2 released & when was ubuntu released? Do one thing, compare Ubuntu 7.04 to a latest fresh install of Windows Vista.



You should've asked yourself this question before posting that *40 emmm beee updatess waaaah :'( :'( *post of yours.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> I hope you know about FileHippo's Update checker or automatic update notification in various Windows Apps. Microsoft cannot take responsibility for 3rd party apps. If something breaks, MS will be held responsible.



Bah. Pfft. I just spoke of a small notifier module which companies can use, not something that will download it. And if Microsoft's so scared about breaking things and being responsible why did it make Windows in the first place? 



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> That would be Apple


And this is you, always trying to throw people off from thier decent topics cause you simply don't know what else to say.



			
				Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> that's because all applications that are installed on Ubuntu are maintained by Ubuntu Developers for the Ubuntu repository and thus they provide updates .
> 
> but Microsoft's doesn't maintain third party software , which is the responsibility of the Software publisher .
> 
> Also , according to Most propreitary EULA , only the Software publisher is allowed to publish and distribute updates , so this also legally restricts MS from publishing updates



Oh yeah? Well you sure haven't added a 3rd Party repo in Ubuntu I guess. Which isn't true I know, so think again. This wasn't my point at all and I won't speak anymore on how Ubuntu updates and how Windows updates.

But I didn't ask for Microsoft to *publish* updates, that'd be illegal, yes. I just asked of a common notifier. That'd be more than enough.


----------



## praka123 (Jun 25, 2007)

Linux distros scrutinizes 3rd party softwares too.even for security flow.woah! that's unimaginable for M$ users
In Debian,if u see the repository structure there is main,contribute and non-free packages listed.where can M$ reach this level 


> Microsoft has been scanning the horizon to ensure that no one begins to kick at the blocks that prop up their monopoly. They are constantly looking for new ways to create more blocks. Some of these blocks are directx, drm, application/windows APIs, network interoperability (or the lack thereof), WGA/WGN lie, FUD, patents. Writing for OpenGL means you are writing for multiple platforms which gives a greater overall share.
> 
> Another new block is DRM. Yes they have had DRM in their product in one fashion or another for decades--copy protection on software back in the 80s, activation keys in the 90s. The WGN/WGA lie in the 00's is a psychological game meant to make the consumer less in control but to give them a feeling they are being protected. They are essentially forcing the consumer to allow Microsoft to spy on them under the guise of protecting the consumer from organized pirating--this is the fundamental lie. The average consumer is already covered because they generally purchase from the likes of Dell, Gateway, etc. Only a small percentage of sales are from systems integrators and the odds of getting one that is dishonest is even more minuscule. Today it is the essential arm-twisting/drafting of the hardware manufacturers to comply with their draconian DRM/CRM procedures.


*linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=230391&threshold=1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&cid=18696149
 there is no justification reg DRM incorporated on VIsta eating user freedom?M$ really goes eating ur privacy.


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 25, 2007)

QwertyManiac said:
			
		

> But I didn't ask for Microsoft to *publish* updates, that'd be illegal, yes. I just asked of a common notifier. That'd be more than enough.


 now that's a valid request . why don't you post it on MSDN forums , maybe devlopers may take heed and add this feature


----------



## QwertyManiac (Jun 25, 2007)

Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> now that's a valid request . why don't you post it on MSDN forums , maybe deevlopers may take heed and add this feature


Oh, ask gx_saurav to do that. He's scared about all the breaking and crap, so he'll have a better idea about it. Like, he's THE coder.


----------



## din (Jun 25, 2007)

I was going through the whole discussion as I see it went to 7 pages ! Thought it will be great as so many participate but I think its all getting diverted !

It started with Vista - the most secure OS and now its comparing Linux n Win, update service etc etc !!

Well, first - About the review. I am not sure how we can take the review as the last word ? Its just a blog entry. *The guy whos behind the blog - Jeff - is working in Microsoft*. Eventhough he claim to be un-biased, how we can tell thats true ? What makes it - the final word on OS security ?

If it is posted by some un-biased or third party site, that would have great. I think this review is like "Din writing review on SE K550i" lol

Anyway, I am not against Vista (which I never used) or Linux / Mac, but would like to coment on.

First, please post something related to the topic title instead of posting irrelevant replies and personal attacks.

Now security. When it comes to servers, all know nothing can beat opensource / linux servers. That is a fact.

Coming to desktop, first thing, majority is still used to Win, so its not very easy to migrate. Second, User friendliness. Linux, especially the new releases ARE user friendly (and of course Din friendly lol, I mean Idiot friendly). Just an example - you are playing a movie in Linux, all of a sudden it quits and shows some very technical error messages. Naturally you blame Linux and you make statements like - This OS is not user friendly (not that particular software !), or desktop linux s u x. But that is coz the media player may be some third party software (where in Windows, it will be my MS). If such problems are called non-user-friendliness, then right, Linux is not user-friendly.

Software Updates - Whatever it is, it is done by humans, like our forum members and we are not perfect, we can't predict which virus will come tomo to attck the softwares we make. There may be security holes, so patches may be needed, software updates can't be considered as a big problem. It is nearly un-avoidable. For Win or for Lin. So why fighting over that, as win / lin / all softwares releases updates and patches.

Some other terms in the discussion, WOW, I am not that technical and not going to comment on any of those. I still read the series -"For Dummies" .

OK, now please ignore my post and please continue the discussion


----------



## iMav (Jun 25, 2007)

din said:
			
		

> OK, now please ignore my post and please continue the discussion


 done 

coz when u say that an error generated in linux is not linux's fault but in windows is windows' fault u just showed ur intention about ms ... so theres no point saying anything to u ... czo u also havnt used vista


----------



## din (Jun 25, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> done
> 
> coz when u say that an error generated in linux is not linux's fault but in windows is windows' fault u just showed ur intention about ms ... so theres no point saying anything to u ... czo u also havnt used vista



Thanks for ignoring, but would like to comment on your post.

I am not against Win/ Lin or Mac. Personally I think its stupid to think only one is perfect and no point in supporting only one, just my opinion, not a genral statement. I used to involve in these kinda OS war / Disto war discussions to support one side , but that was long back when I was a student. Not any more !

This is off topic, but as you mentioned, I think I have to reply.

If windows media player is not working for you, and you are blaming Microsoft for that, I think you are right. Reason is, its a product of microsoft.

When Xine or any other media player is not working in Redhat Linux (just example), and you blame Redhat for that, I think that is not right. The product is not that of Redhat and Redhat does not force you to install it (it is optional).

That is the point I meant and I am really sorry to see you took it in the wrong sense.


----------



## praka123 (Jun 25, 2007)

See @Din:this is the problem  they cant stand up with M$ faults .
ps:if u have xine crashing,post ur problem in open source section.they can help u.even ur problem may be due to win32codecs 
btwn GNU/Linux has grown more than the old - Linux=redhat thingy.now ubuntu rules,followed by suse and fedora,Vista sales are affected by the advent of modern distros like Ubuntu and aero is pwned by 3D effects of beryl(for fancy OS users!).


----------



## iMav (Jun 25, 2007)

oh well we accept faults but not crap like drm drm drm ... 



			
				din said:
			
		

> If windows media player is not working for you, and you are blaming Microsoft for that, I think you are right. Reason is, its a product of microsoft.
> 
> When Xine or any other media player is not working in Redhat Linux (just example), and you blame Redhat for that, I think that is not right. The product is not that of Redhat and Redhat does not force you to install it (it is optional)


 so which post mnakes u think any of us does that ...


----------



## praka123 (Jun 25, 2007)

Dude!DRM is not crap,it's sh!t on ur  .just know it before justifying DRM.
DRM is against user freedom.it is born due to capitalism uncontrolled in US and developed countries(not all!).the companies think they can do anything to poor id!ot users-results are DRM,soon there will be brain patented by ballmer and gates,all US citizens need to get a brain implant from M$FT etc.. reality that is.
So in some capitalist countries u see a single human is not respected by any(although laws will boast this) but corporations which amass $$$ in large.so $=justice is right in US as it even allows a OS to bundle DRM!
But let me clear U neither am a communist as i came from a state ruled by Marxist   and know the "virtues" of leftism.see the things with independent view,not a fanboyish one.
for ppl viewing the thread pls see:
*defectivebydesign.org


----------



## iMav (Jun 25, 2007)

im not justifying drm but ur continuous blame on ms & vista for drm drm drm drm, its a company it has its reasons why would ms want to jeopardise its sales use ur brain and dont post like a fanboy .... at the end its customers who will buy if drm starts affecting them big time the customer will shift to OSS thank ms for putting drm coz it might just help ur cause

but ur limited sight doesnt let u see beyond vista and drm drm drm ....

the bottom line is if drm is bad ms will loose sales so it has to be something really big for ms to put drm and gamble  praka use ur rational senses if u havent lost em


----------



## din (Jun 25, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> so which post mnakes u think any of us does that ...



Oh man, I am not into OS war, I already mentioned.

Well, 



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> coz when u say that an error generated in linux is not linux's fault but in windows is windows' fault u just showed ur intention about ms ...



I made it very clear, even with a simple example. I meant blaming Linux (or even Win) for third party software fault is not right.

And you are telling (quote above), you know my intention !!

It will be really nice if you re-read my post. 

@all others - sorry for the off topic, but I couldn't resist posting as my friend took things in a wrong way.


----------



## anandk (Jun 25, 2007)

WINDOWS VISTA 6-MONTH VULNERABILITY REPORT *www.csoonline.com/pdf/6_Month_Vista_Vuln_Report.pdf

hope its not a repost ...


----------



## kumarmohit (Jun 25, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> do u know that Vista bundles DRM?



Praka dude, I was just wondering why you linked to Badvista.org which only projects opinion of foss community instead of pointing to *en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management which presents a comparatively objective information about DRM.
-------------------------------------------------
PS: I know DRM sux big time. please dont flame me for supporting it.


----------



## Avatar (Jun 25, 2007)

kumarmohit said:
			
		

> Praka dude, I was just wondering why you linked to Badvista.org which only projects opinion of foss community instead of pointing to *en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management which presents a comparatively objective information about DRM.
> -------------------------------------------------
> PS: I know DRM sux big time. please dont flame me for supporting it.


 
Because he has been appointer a PR for FOSS.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 25, 2007)

Microsoft is a computer OS company. If they want to sale there product & make money which can play TV then they must support the DRM which TV Channels use.

If they don't support it then consumers won't be able to play TV in Media center. They will loose a market.

TV Channels want people to see TV whether in Computer or TV. If it is TV, they use set top box. If it is computer then the OS must support DRM imposed by TV companies.

If MS tries to force non-DRM over Hollywood, well...TV companies don't care, however Consumer wants to play TV in there computer which means MS gives such a feature, & to give such a feature they must follow the rules.

The consumer is always free not to use MCE, & use some 3rd party application which removed DRM from TV feed. For these they either have to use hacks or cracks.

Every consumer is not a geek. Not everyone cares for DRM. They just want to see TV on there computers & record the playboy TV shows 

Is it wrong for MS to comply by the rules & support a feature to sale there OS & make money?


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 25, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Is it wrong for MS to comply by the rules & support a feature to sale there OS & make money?


 i guess accorking to prakash , making money from software is a sin .


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 25, 2007)

then Mandrive, XenderOS & Linspire should be closed down right now.


----------



## praka123 (Jun 25, 2007)

Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> i guess accorking to prakash , making money from software is a sin .


when did i said,u r again spreading FUD.U and I verywell know that OSS can be used for profit.why again FUDing man? 
Infact what do Redhat,IBM and other companies do?they are in software business but with OSS as their  sales.yes.subscription model will be the base for  most OSS developers,not the other way "30-day magic" -which proprietory companies are spreading-which again leads to the tendency to get warez and cracks hence a BIG reason for piracy.
what else i'd say?get a life maaan!


> The web site *Follars.com* was created to answer the   trillion dollar question: “How can companies make money from open source   software?”. Follars stands for *F*ree, *O*pen SourceDo*llars.*
> 
> Free & open source software (FOSS) is changing the   business rules of the software industry at a pretty good pace. It is an   interesting paradigm, and appears to be a worthy competitive business model   to the closed/proprietary business models that have held sway so far.   However, the question that has dogged practically everyone in the FOSS domain   is that of making money. Well, perhaps it is not a trillion-dollar-question,   may be it is only a billion-dollar-question, oh all right, if you insist, at the   very least it is a million-dollar-question for many companies.
> 
> The idea behind *Follars.com* is to collect at one   place all the insights, thoughts and resources for the problem of making   money from free & open source software. No doubt, some companies (such as   Red Hat, for instance) have started making a reasonable amount of revenues,   but still many feel that we have a long way to go before we can feel   confident that there is a sustainable revenue model for FOSS. There are a   number of bright minds and exceptional companies that are putting their   thinking caps for this.


*www.follars.com/


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 25, 2007)

:Yawn: Prakash & his advertisements


----------



## QwertyManiac (Jun 25, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> :Yawn: Prakash & his advertisements


When you don't have anything to say after your subnormally intelligent comments on things which are beyond your medium of understanding, please try to understand that its not so necessary to hit the Submit Reply button. Its okay to type the post and take a screenshot and keep it in your 'Ignorantly Happy Replies' folder.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 25, 2007)

:Yawn, Qwerty & his lectures. Hey, is it wrong to post something i conclude to?


----------



## QwertyManiac (Jun 25, 2007)

Yes, cause you don't bother to read it at all, judging from your replies. Advertisements? Meh. Some interpretation.


----------



## iMav (Jun 25, 2007)

well how about drm drm drm drm i hate ms coz they drm drm drm drm in vista ... drm drm drm drm yash raj introduced drm drm drm drm music for countries other than india then also its ms fault coz they hav drm drm drm drm in vista


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 25, 2007)

Prakash , i would prefer one-time payment anytime to subscription .

And Win XP also includes technical support with it , so if you cut the technical support cost , i think the price of OS will be considerably low


----------



## din (Jun 25, 2007)

WOW

155 replies, thread that went to 8 pages, heated up discussion !!

Now how many replies are related to the topic title - atleast somewhat related - *Vista is still the most secure OS to date ?*

and how many are personal attacks, irrelevant, no way related to the topic etc ? 

LOL !


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 25, 2007)

Din, you have not seen the pwnage thread of Macboys it seems


----------



## iMav (Jun 25, 2007)

din all i can say to u is welcome to thinkdigit.com/forums ... ur new to this place and hence arent aware of how members hate MS and are ready to hijack any thread to bash it


----------



## QwertyManiac (Jun 25, 2007)

Eh? Din is one of the oldest members around here! You seem to be in the new group of ignorant believers who's settled here self-boasting about the same.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 25, 2007)

Din is a senior member here.


----------



## sakumar79 (Jun 26, 2007)

@Eddie, regarding your comment  ("The point is that IF (and that is a big IF) those companies would have walked away then where could have they sold their content") to my post, I would like to point out (as gx_saurav said), we still have TVs to watch the content on... Again, this is a very theoretical situation, and I am guessing that if push came to shove, they might not have done it... But without knowing further details, I am not going to comment on the veracity of the statement. Like I said in my post, this was one of the few points taken from an article and I mentioned that I was posting it just to show alternate point of view. The article posted earlier and the article in my link, both lacked proof. They had only statements. Statements made without proof are basically opinions, and both are biased. 


@praka123, I asked a few questions in my earlier post:
1. Give me an example of how MS did whatever they wanted and US changed their law for them. 
2. Suggest an alternative Digital Rights mechanism that is both user friendly as well as (atleast) equally effective
3. Why you believe that DRM is used to watch what you are doing and send it back, and that do you think that it was not possible earlier for them to track your personal info and send it if they wanted to?

Rather than answer any of my questions through statements backed with proof (dont give me links to opinion sites. Give me links to news sites), you have started making more statements on the same. Without giving proof, all your statements are also FUDs (just like the patent-infringement FUDs that MS raised).

I ask for you to explain and you think I am a MS fan. I dont care if you think I am a MS fan. I know what I am, and I dont need to convince you. Just for your info though - I use Windows. I have used Linux for a couple of years (this was 3 or 4 years ago). Working with it was hard due to device installation trouble and limited software range, I was willing to pay cash for Windows because it allowed me to use the software that I need. Right now, my work is tight, and when it becomes a bit flexible, I plan to try out Linux and hopefully, Mac too to get myself uptodate on their capabilities. When my friends and relatives ask for advice, I try to steer them clear of piracy and educate them on free alternatives (rarely, they go for Linux, usually, it is free Windows apps).

Just one final question - are you for or against digital Intellectual Property (forget DRM for this question)? IP refers to a creation of the intellect that has commercial value, including copyrighted property such as literary or artistic works, and ideational property, such as patents, appellations of origin, business methods, and industrial processes... The digital rights mechanism attempts to ensure that the digital media are distributed as dictated by the owner. Forgetting the current implementations, do you believe that the digital media should be distributed as dictated by the owner or do you think that the user can do what he wants with it after he pirates or purchases a copy of the digital media? 

Arun


----------



## din (Jun 26, 2007)

*@iMav* I guess you meant 'Welcome Back'  right ?

I was here before also, but then things were bit different. Those were the days with (yes, the 'once upon a time' style lol) Aadipa, Freestyler, Dexter, Sunny, Vinay, Grudge, Nemi, Deep, GX, QwertyManiac, Santhosh, Jeba, Sr-Ultimate, Medpal, Pallu, Infra-red-dude and a lot of people. 

We had similar discussions, fights, heated up discussions. But the main difference was, majority of replies were related to the topic title, almost all were doing constructive criticism. Some of us had different opinion about other members, some just hated some others. But none of these reflected in the forum discussion. Most were quality posts.

Then there were no sub categories, all were under general Discussion. And people were not caring much on the post counts. People posted replies only if they really really think their post will someway help others, like posting something useful, related to topic or something new.

Now after going through this thread, I couldn't find much replies that is related to the thread title. May be I am wrong, as I am not too-technical, forgive me, but I failed to find how these are related to the topic

1. User friendliness of OS

2. Personal attacks - like (Keep quiet you din, you do not know anything, just listen what I tell - lol, nobody posted this, but you can see similar posts)

3. DRM - I have no clue what is this, I will use google lol

4. Piracy - well somewhat related to security, I agree

5. Movie / channels in PC

6. Digital Millenium Copyright act

It is not uncommon discussion gettin diverted but nobody is trying to bring it back to the topic and stick to it. That is the reason I posted in this thread, knowing my posts are also off-topic

Finally, again and again - I am not into OS war. People will use the Os they like. Simple. For me, I work in LAMP. All my / clients servers are OS / Linux. But at home / office all my PCs run in Win XP / 2000 and majority of softwares I use work in Win. If that is not enough, my major client whos in France use Mac in his office and want me to make sure everything I make works perfectly in Mac.

How can I support only one OS ? LOL

Well, I think we can come back to the point, whether Vista is the most secure OS, if so, then points or proof supportin it, if not, which Os is most secure, again proof, like that.

Now, don't you think thats the right way ?


----------



## iMav (Jun 26, 2007)

offtopic:

@din the thing is that for a long time mac boys had been boasting about their OS on this forum and bashed windows same is the case with Linux users, they keep hi-jacking threads remotely related to windows and then start bashing MS and windows to which some members took notice and decided to reveal some facts as a result a lot of shortcomings in the os x were revealed which hurt the feelings of the mac boys as all this time being on thinkdigit they had been trumpetting about os x similarly the linux boys (theirs was only about drm drm drm drm) now this confrontation is spread all over this forum in almost every thread where something new from MS is reported

and most of the time discussions are not actually diverted as they are continuation of the other threads .... 

the problem here is all we windows users say is dont proclaim ur OS as the 'best' if does what u want it to use it but dont act like a salesman who is not ready to accept a drawback and will keep on bashing the other product for no rhyme or reason something which prakash has been doing drm drm drm drm drm ... i re-iterate if yash raj decided to launch drm locked media then its MS fault coz their OS can play drm locked media 

i would like if members stop using the superlative degree as it would reduce a lot of mis-conceptions


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jun 26, 2007)

din said:
			
		

> I was here before also, but then things were bit different. Those were the days with....



sigh! yes... those were the dayz!  golden dayz! but many of us are still here.

i did post into this thread, but as soon as it got deviated (wid stuff remotely conncted to this topic like drm, mce, this that and what not...) i stopped posting. it will only add more irrelevance to the topic as one post is countered by the other and the chain continues. the main topic loses focus. but can't help it. in every thread its the same thing.

things like "my OS is best" is giving way to statements like "your OS is the worst!" yes, its happening everywhere. theres no constructive critisism anywhere. people here behave as if they own these companies. a debate is useless if both sides fail to see their weak points and the opponents strong points. folks around work as if its their duties to find flaws in other OS, like macboys doing nothing but finding flaws in windows, winboys doing the same for mac and linux and finally linuxboys yet doing the same for windows.

i do not take any side coz i use both linux and windows heavily. i kno the pros and cons of both the OSs in the context of my usage. i've used the macos very very sparingly. since i dun haf apple hardware i'm not bothered abt it much.

i'd say only this: (plz dun consider them as personal attacks)

macboys: forget windows if u think its bad. u haf apple hardware anyways. run macos and be happy.

winboys: forget macos. u dun haf apple hardware anyways.

linux boys: forget drm. use a 3rd party app and stop crying.

use whatever u like, but dun hijack and kill each and every thread in this forum. it will lead to nowhere. this applies to everyone.

sorry for my offtopic post. but cudn't help posting this.


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 26, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> the problem here is all we windows users say is dont proclaim ur OS as the 'best' if does what u want it to use it but dont act like a salesman who is not ready to accept a drawback and will keep on bashing the other product for no rhyme or reason something which prakash has been doing drm drm drm drm drm ... i re-iterate if yash raj decided to launch drm locked media then its MS fault coz their OS can play drm locked media


 *"Use whatever you want , just don't rant about your produtct being the best"*


----------



## kumarmohit (Jun 26, 2007)

din said:
			
		

> forgive me, but I failed to find how these are related to the topic
> 
> 
> 6. Digital Millenium Copyright act
> ...



I do not understand why the hell are we Indians bothered about DMCA, an American Law applicable in USA.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 26, 2007)

^^^^ Even I don't know. It is only Prakash who is afraid that Microsoft or RIAA or MPAA will take over the world uisng DRM  due to which he is  very scared.


----------



## praka123 (Jun 26, 2007)

did you have ford/gm from US running on ur roads,then sure,DRM too is running.I already said yashraj and many bollywood movie companies are going with DRM in India(i mean it,yashraj is a company from india)


----------



## iMav (Jun 26, 2007)

prakash u missed my reply 

if yash raj has gone for drm drm drm drm then how is it MS's fault ... why blame MS for it MS did not make drm


----------



## praka123 (Jun 26, 2007)

so if that way ur logic works,then we dont have DRM installed in M$ Vista India Edition?is that something like that?the worst thing M$ brought to OS arena is DRM incorporated to their Vista OS  
Kuch to seekho!


----------



## iMav (Jun 26, 2007)

what non-sense are u saying man ... are u dumb or something ... yash raj decided to release its work on drm protected media then why are u blaming MS coz its OS is able to support drm media and ur OSS doesnt 

and besides the link that u gave see the cover image u will see that the drm protected version is for countries other than india ... read and see for urself the links u give then post here

curse amd also they have decided to launch a mobo series which will drm at chip level ...


----------



## praka123 (Jun 26, 2007)

^but isnt yashraj an *indian* company?how can you be 100% sure of this doesnot be implemented in India?


----------



## iMav (Jun 26, 2007)

so is it MS fault that yash raj is releasing its work on drm .... arre yaar kya baat kar rahe ho .... yash raj decided to launch its media on drm and ur blaming MS for it ...  ur free software enthusiasm has made u loose ur rational understanding


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 26, 2007)

According to Prakash's logic, if Hero Cycle decides to launch patrol powered cycles instead of pedal then it is the mistake of Indian Oil


----------



## kumarmohit (Jun 26, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Even I don't know. It is only Prakash who is afraid that Microsoft or RIAA or MPAA will take over the world uisng DRM  due to which he is very scared.





			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> did you have ford/gm from US running on ur roads,then sure,DRM too is running.I already said yashraj and many bollywood movie companies are going with DRM in India(i mean it,yashraj is a company from india)




Oh No No No, why do you guyz tend to confuse - DRM which is Digital Rights Management- a technology with DMCA - Digital Millenium Copyright Act - a Law.


DMCA is much much wider than DRM.
DRM has come to India and we will have to kick it out.
DMCA is a Law, It cannot come to India unless we become the 51st US state (Impossible) or US invades and colonises India thus making US law imposed in India (extremly unlikely)


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 26, 2007)

kumarmohit said:
			
		

> Oh No No No, why do you guyz tend to confuse - DRM which is Digital Rights Management- a technology with DMCA - Digital Millenium Copyright Act - a Law.
> 
> 
> DMCA is much much wider than DRM.
> ...


Anyway , Audio CD's will always be available and rippers will rip them , DRM or NO DRM


----------



## Sukhdeep Singh (Jun 26, 2007)

Sorry for acing n00b but praka123 can you please tell me what exactly in DRM bothers you. I mean what kind of privacy it breaches ? Please tell me in your own words and dont link me to Blogs and stuff. Thanks


----------



## praka123 (Jun 27, 2007)

@sukhdeepsinghkohli:First of All I'm not a n00b here,the thing is my id is changed by admin as requested

As of DRM's side-effects, sure knows it is a malware which intrudes your privacy.How? becoz with closed source Vista with DRM,You dont know what can be collected by malwares,spywares in Windows series of OS;right?
DRM even in hardware for eg:  DVD(HD,blu-ray) players in future will bundle this if no user intervention comes stopping this been enforced in western countries as it is for sure India will follow suite.
You cannot be _so sure_,about any OS or hardware,let it be your favourite too be not harming you,unless its specs and code are open and verified.
playing HD_DVDs and blurays are not the end of the storage experiance.there are already other attempts which tries to get with par,without DRM menace-for eg:China's alternate DVD format.
there are DRM-exploits(wmp?) which hampers user experiance too.
Digital Restriction Management as of now is clearly intruding  fair use rights.the  future with this sort of technologies pressurred on Users will be a biggest disaster .the worst case is Windows Vista which carries DRM lock for ur music.DRM is not a "Technological advantage"-it is like for eg:as u may be knowing jasiya forced on other religions.at the end of all this the user will be just "leasing" his Vista OS(ever read complete EULA) and for DRM Music,You are not allowed to keep a backup of ur copy of music again as DRM mechanism stops you from doing this.for a rational mind,this makes DRM a crippleware,malware.even more than this,a success for DRM enforcement means future laws will make it terrible for anything other than proprietory companies to cop up with a music market where each and every music files are "copyrighted" with terrible measures as this.
in future anything even from DRMed Hardware(afaik AMD is developing this!),Software will not be allowed by these authorities.
what will be implemented in US/Europe will be follow suit by most countries in the context of technologies and laws.
As a corporate selling both pirated and genuine copy of windows vista os with DRM,Microsoft did the wrong for its users world over.they forced DRM with Vista.it is not forced on M$ by RIAA.they can sure let Vista comeout without DRM.but they in future want to compete everywhere spreading DRM too in the cause.even more as a closed source OS,believe it or not,Vista DRM implementation sure may have its set of flaws(in security,privacy) which will be revealed with time.DRM in Vista means each and everything you are doing can be possibly traced and logged.

Another aspect i notice is,that when Vista and may be MAC too get DRM incorporated,what will be the future of Free Software or Open SOurce Operating systems,for eg:  GNU/Linux?cant it be just that we dont have the right to not to choose DRM and cop up with newer technologies,in that case i will say the clear Agenda of DRM is to kill its users fair usage rights and EULA's been enforced on them.
Cant it be that all OS needs to be Open SOurced be a law?do u feel raged?=the same thing is DRM forced on media.and every rights are there for a person who uses OSS too have teh power to access media at any format.
As an OS,I am not against Windows,but against Vista+DRM that is. let veteran users too knows the DRM menace.


----------



## iMav (Jun 27, 2007)

amd and ati are already moving towards launching drm drm at chip level


----------



## Avatar (Jun 27, 2007)

sukhdeepsinghkohli said:
			
		

> Sorry for acing n00b but praka123 can you please tell me what exactly in DRM bothers you. I mean what kind of privacy it breaches ? Please tell me in your own words and dont link me to Blogs and stuff. Thanks


 
Dont expect that  , all he will do is a big copy paste. I read his previous posts in this forum and he always does this , and even same stuff many times.
How about answering this dude , i think he has some fair questions


			
				sakumar said:
			
		

> @praka123, I asked a few questions in my earlier post:
> 1. Give me an example of how MS did whatever they wanted and US changed their law for them.
> 2. Suggest an alternative Digital Rights mechanism that is both user friendly as well as (atleast) equally effective
> 3. Why you believe that DRM is used to watch what you are doing and send it back, and that do you think that it was not possible earlier for them to track your personal info and send it if they wanted to?
> ...


 

DRM is not customer friendly, no doubt. But recently when apple started to sell some DRM free tracks, they contained data about the person who purchased them (which i think is fair) . You can transfer those tracks on various supported hardware that you own , but still the fact is that you can not let your purchased tracks hover over internet,because they have your info on them(although this info can be removed by certain ways). Some users were still pissed by this fact which shows people only need DRM free content so they can pirate it. No matter how positive steps companies take to ease it for users.


----------



## praka123 (Jun 27, 2007)

wow!bashing me for telling teh truths here.eh?  what is wrong if i quoted external sources?as per the context of the thread VIsta be the most secure os-i showed that it isnt and it contains DRM menace.know it dude,rather than bashing every post of mine.i posted the reality of Vista and alongwith it's DRM too.


----------



## iMav (Jun 27, 2007)

prakash u hate windows only coz it has drm and u cant even say what drm is or how it affects *u* in ur own words u will copy-paste text or giv links whats bothering u cant be out in ur own words ur being a mouth peice rather than some 1 affected .... its not bashing u but ur lack of rational understanding


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 27, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> becoz with closed source Vista with DRM,You dont know what can be collected by malwares,spywares in Windows series of OS;right?



Maruti closed source the engine. You don't know if piston is above the crack shaft or below teh crack shaft. Now don't buy a Maruti car

Gr8 Prakash Logic. 



> You cannot be _so sure_,about any OS or hardware,let it be your favourite too be not harming you,unless its specs and code are open and verified.



Wait, your TV, Fridge, RAM, Washing Machine are open source? Wow, I never knew you can overclock your Washing machine for more fast spins & you can install Linux in your Fridge 


> Windows Vista which carries DRM lock for ur music.



Where?



> and for DRM Music,You are not allowed to keep a backup of ur copy of music again as DRM mechanism stops you from doing this.



Yes you are allowed, just burn a CD, or copy anywhere else while backing up your license.



> for a rational mind,this makes DRM a crippleware,malware.



Then I doubt you have a rational mind 



> they forced DRM with Vista.it is not forced on M$ by RIAA.



Read the 300 pages of this forum again where I & so many other members tried to tell u where u r wrong, but you are such a big idiot that u have a problem in reading English.



> DRM in Vista means each and everything you are doing can be possibly traced and logged.



Then according to your logic, this can also happen in Open Source OS cos the source code is easily modifiable by the Admin department or authority which is installing it.



> Cant it be that all OS needs to be Open SOurced be a law?



Nope, sorry. *Linux has no Innovation.*



> and every rights are there for a person who uses OSS too have teh power to access media at any format.



You mean hack the DRM technology, yup OSS is very legal.


----------



## Avatar (Jun 27, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> wow!bashing me for telling teh truths here.eh?  *what is wrong if i quoted external sources*?as per the context of the thread VIsta be the most secure os-i showed that it isnt and it contains DRM menace.know it dude,rather than bashing every post of mine.i posted the reality of Vista and alongwith it's DRM too.


 
One thing that is wrong with 'always' copy pasting other sources shows that you never have your own opinion on a matter , you go by the thing always said by others. Although quoting other sources sometimes is absolutely not bad, but not always. 

I have read your old posts too, and all are same. Crippled with DRM comes from a user who has been told many times that you can buy and play non DRM stuff on that OS too, and as MS is doing business its very obvious for them to include the feature for the users to use DRM'd content if he/she needs. It's very obvious that Entertainment industry will try to protect their copyrighted material and introduce such implementations, as a buyer i want my OS to be ready to play such secure files. I personally will never buy a DRM contaminated file but i am happy there is a option for users like me and as well as others who buy protected content.

You believe the sources you quote but at the same time if any source gives a + to vista you have a sheep mentality of MS bought that source. As a user you or me will never like DRM but did you bother to answer the questions put up by Sakumar? What you didn't google yet for them? go go google !!!


----------



## iMav (Jun 27, 2007)

just coz yash raj decided to launch music on drm prakash hates MS for it gr8 logic dude .... prakash 1 advice let ur mind make up the decision of wats good and wats bad not the opinions of others on a lot of linux forums im certain u r echoing most of their concerns here 

drm drm drm drm drm .... prakash get ur userid changed to drm drm drm drm drm


----------



## Sukhdeep Singh (Jun 27, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> @sukhdeepsinghkohli:First of All I'm not a n00b here,the thing is my id is changed by admin as requested
> 
> As of DRM's side-effects, sure knows it is a malware which intrudes your privacy.How? becoz with closed source Vista with DRM,You dont know what can be collected by malwares,spywares in Windows series of OS;right?
> DRM even in hardware for eg:  DVD(HD,blu-ray) players in future will bundle this if no user intervention comes stopping this been enforced in western countries as it is for sure India will follow suite.
> ...


Thanks praka123 for enlightening me on that 

But thinking of privacy, wont that make Google a culprit aswell. They can easily know more about you if they want to - i guess

Google - What kind of information u search for and what interests you
Orkut - Who your friends are, what your social cirls consists.
Gtalk - Who you talk to,
Gmail - What kinda of mail you get, from whom, when, how much
Youtube - What kinda of videos you watch. We know what guys watch but what the heck......
Blogger - No explaination needed i guess here
Desktop Search and tons more.....


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 27, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM



Idiot, gadha, ullu, moron, stupid, nonsense....ignorant, fanboy 

Mehul, I m sorry, but could not resist


----------



## praka123 (Jun 27, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Idiot, gadha, ullu, moron, stupid, nonsense....ignorant, fanboy
> 
> Mehul, I m sorry, but could not resist


 ^^ same to You  cant stop telling that.U r bashing MAC,Linux everywhere and some two members here too.
I think he's pwned long back


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 27, 2007)

Lolz...you even copy pasted my opinion to me, instead of writing your own. Avtar was right about u.


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jun 27, 2007)

sukhdeepsinghkohli said:
			
		

> Google - What kind of information u search for and what interests you
> Orkut - Who your friends are, what your social cirls consists.
> Gtalk - Who you talk to,
> Gmail - What kinda of mail you get, from whom, when, how much
> ...


 Yups that's what i also wanted to ask him ? 

And i had asked one linux fanboy the same question in some other thread that is his TV , Fridge , etc Open Source too .

btw , Prakash , i think that you own a mobile , then i also think that it's OS is not Open Source then how do you know that ur mobile is not transmitting your usage statistic s, phone calls , and every of your contact list to ur operator n mobile owner ?

Mate it's all a mutual understanding , you Have to trust companies , i trust MS  when they say in EULA that they will not collect private data , i trust that they won't . same goes for every product . The basis of each service is trust


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 27, 2007)

> btw , Prakash , i think that you own a mobile , then i also think that it's OS is not Open Source then how do you know that ur mobile is not transmitting your usage statistic s, phone calls , and every of your contact list to ur operator n mobile owner ?



Holy f***....SE & BSNL are sending my phone logs to my dad, now he will find out which gals i talk to whole day. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO my mom will find out about which gal i called at my home when I was home alone.

I am so scared......nahiiiiiiii


----------



## iMav (Jun 27, 2007)

^^ switch to open source cell fones ... ask prakash about it and make sure it doesnt have drm drm drm drm


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jun 27, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> .....now he will find out which gals i talk to whole day.



lol.. i see u on forum all day... u got time to call too!!   hehe... true multitasker!!! 



			
				Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> Mate it's all a mutual understanding , you Have to trust companies....



yeah, but i can never trust two companies: MS and Apple!!


----------



## iMav (Jun 27, 2007)

dont even trust google or ur bank


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 27, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> dont even trust google or ur bank


Yup, even I have switched to Live search



> lol.. i see u on forum all day... u got time to call too!!   hehe... true multitasker!!!



SE HPM-70 is a hands free device for K750i

There are various beetel or BPL or chienese cordless phones in the market with hands free support

Speaker Phone (Dangerous while asking out)


----------



## nepcker (Jun 27, 2007)

MS employee said:
			
		

> Vista is still the most secure OS to date.


 Does anyone expect anyone working in M$ to say that Vista is insecure?

I don't know why the poster of this thread didn't mentioned the last important lines of that link: "*Full Disclosure:  I work for Microsoft*"

Oh please, just have a look at *www.microsoft-watch.com/content/security/microsoft_is_counting_bugs_again.html

"The point: *Don't count on security flaw counting. The real flaw is the counting.*"



			
				microsoft-watch/content/security/microsoft_is_counting_bugs_again.html said:
			
		

> Near as I can tell, Jones' counting ignores operating system components. Bulletin  MS07-033, released last week, contains patches for five separate security vulnerabilities affecting Internet Explorer 7. A cumulative patch is available for the IE 7 for Vista and Vista 64-bit. Bulletin MS07-034 fixes two vulnerabilities for Windows Mail, which is part of Vista. Another bulletin, MS07-032, is specific to Windows. By my count, *that's three bulletins and eight security fixes just in June*.
> 
> Sorry, but *Microsoft's self-evaluating security counting isn't really good accounting*.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 27, 2007)

Sorry, but Apple posting Apple users are happy Ads on Apple.com doesn't counts as happy users.


----------



## Avatar (Jun 27, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> ^^ same to You  cant stop telling that.U r bashing MAC,Linux everywhere and some two members here too.
> I think he's pwned long back


 
Reminder : Sakumar asked you some good questions. Didn't find anything thru google to copy paste? Lets see for how much time you will ignore them.


----------



## iMav (Jun 27, 2007)

his reply is .... vista has drm yash raj is releasing drm drm is bad drm drm drm drm mummeeeee drm aa raha hai 

shehar mein jab bacha nahi sotta hai toh uski maa kehti soja bete nahi toh drm aa jayega ... drm drm drm


----------



## Avatar (Jun 27, 2007)

Does anyone watch yash raj movies? nobody gives a sh1t. Singing and dancing comes on tv, there is no story. then what's  there to protect? These yash raj,karan johar,similar people have  ruined the indian cinema. Aaaak thoo..


----------



## chesss (Jun 27, 2007)

> shehar mein jab bacha nahi sotta hai toh uski maa kehti soja bete nahi toh drm aa jayega


 lol! But u all r being too hard on him, drm does sucks and it hurts 'honest'(filthy rich?) people most.


----------



## iMav (Jun 27, 2007)

i agree that drm isnt good for the end consumer but prakash seems to be obsessed with drm and for some reason he is bashing MS in every possible thread because vista supports drm ... and according to him it is MS's fault that yash raj released drm music


----------



## kumarmohit (Jun 28, 2007)

Avatar said:
			
		

> Does anyone watch yash raj movies? nobody gives a sh1t. Singing and dancing comes on tv, there is no story. then what's  there to protect? These yash raj,karan johar,similar people have  ruined the indian cinema. Aaaak thoo..



That's your opinion, unfortunately a lot of Indians do not share this opinion, though I do personally. These people who like YR films are a lot and they may suffer due to DRM not now and in near future but yes with the penetration of the net and sale of online music going up- they will.


----------



## iMav (Jun 28, 2007)

ok i think its time we kicked out drm from this topic ...


----------



## Avatar (Jun 28, 2007)

kumarmohit said:
			
		

> That's your opinion, unfortunately a lot of Indians do not share this opinion, though I do personally. These people who like YR films are a lot and they may suffer due to DRM not now and in near future but yes with the penetration of the net and sale of online music going up- they will.


 
I don't think suffering for them is anything new , as they willingly suffer yash raj's movies.    DRM feels less evil then those movies.


----------



## praka123 (Jun 28, 2007)

So people thinks DRM as a boon and Vista with DRM as a right thing-goOd  .


----------



## iMav (Jun 28, 2007)

dude u and ur drm shut up man ... coz of u people are starting threads to teach us what to speak and what not to ...

the topic is about vista's security drm is not associated with its security so keep it out .... copy-paste all ur links about drm in a separate thread then we will talk there ...


----------



## praka123 (Jun 28, 2007)

Avatar said:
			
		

> Reminder : Sakumar asked you some good questions. Didn't find anything thru google to copy paste? Lets see for how much time you will ignore them.


 why so much harshness?why google copy-it shows the truth only.
remember i have opened the hidden trap of Vista called *DRM* to be known to many users for the firsttime here afaik.lets dont go in the direction of justifying it  that looks too win fanboysh like the other two win-rav@ns here
yes,a google search for all "privilaged" DRM VIsta users:
*www.google.co.in/search?q=Vista%20DRM&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8



> the topic is about vista's security drm is not associated with its security so keep it out


 DRM itself is a security risk for Vista users.it works as a rootkit or chroot env inside Operating system.try wikipedia for that.
so far disgusting fanboys i am seeing bashing me for telling teh reality


----------



## iMav (Jun 28, 2007)

^^ dont u understand simple english


----------



## Avatar (Jun 28, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> remember i have opened the hidden trap of Vista called *DRM* to be known to many users for the firsttime here afaik.


 
You have not opened anything good for others, because you don't talk logic. DRM is bad for end users and everyone knows that . For the third time i am reminding, do you have answers for Sakumars three questions? If you don't, just say it . Don't write same thing all over again and again.


----------



## din (Jun 28, 2007)

@Praka123

I humbly request you to go through the thread

*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61518

Alomst all others who were fighting in this thread checked that but I think you missed id. Please have a look.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 28, 2007)

^^^ din

All windows bashers including arya & prakash missed that thread.



> remember i have opened the hidden trap of Vista called *DRM* to be known to many users for the firsttime here afaik



Nope, you are spreading FUD & Lies about Windows Vista and its DRM

1) *Vista DRM affects only HD DVD & Blue Ray*

2) For quite some time, it has no effect cos there is no HD DVD & Blue Ray in India yet.

3) *Vista DRM doesn't affect any other file or non-DRM content.
*
4) *99.99999999% Indians are using non-DRM content.

*5) You are an ignorant fanboy. Stick to Linux & try making a hack to play HD DVD, It will be complete & will be released in 2009 as version 0.2.


----------



## vaithy (Jun 28, 2007)

Hello!

Usually my posting will took whole of the server so usually I learn to watch the posting of other members but no fight..

Here what we learn is One member says Vista has good security features, that is very good reason for many windows users to cheers, who are fed up with  day to day cleansing of their system with multiple Antivirus, firewalls, daily dose of windows updates,,etc.,etc., Now they can breathe easy..
 So far it is good!!  But it didn’t stop there, only when the member who post the chart from one of Redmond’s embedded sites, the fight begin….O.K !! O.K!! Imav may ready to say, that I belong to one of the Anti Windows brigade or the dreaded ’ commie’RMS pal !! So a little intro do no harm!!

I am basically Accountant so my computer knowledge is very limited, working Windows system in my Office from it Windows95 to98 and 2000, now its Windows XP.. yet to see Vista but no comment on it now. Three years ago when I purchase my first computer it was preinstalled with Windows XP with recovery cd. At that time I don’t know the existence of Linux.. the system was mainly used for sending e-mails, downloading multimedia applications both trial and free wares. Norton was installed and frequently updated. Anyhow the system was infected so severe it hard disk could not  be used for booting. When I have read in a magazine how Linux is not affected by virus, I asked the vender to install Linux, but he refused point blank, and warned if I installed Linux the warranty for the computer will be off. So I have to wait for the warranty period over than get fedora’s ver.2.  cd  from a friend, installed it.  Ofcourse  multimedia never worked.. and internal modem never connected… even Open-Office is very slow than MSWord, also it has many bugs..( but now my PclinuxOS can play all multimedia filesas well as connecting the internet is breeze..) but I pressed on now I am mainly spending my time in Linux where as my kids are very fond of windows they can play Need for speed . They are not interested in Linux and I am not pressing them to learn it..Why?
Linux is not a mere OS!!
It  is the symbol for the free world!! It is the result of thousands of developers world over give their labour freely so the people who has  no means to access the costly proprietary softwares, can be benefit from it. There is nothing wrong if somebody want to use Windows, then it is their freedom  to do so..Millions of users are still using Linux along with their Windows based system. They are not the fanboys of RMS or Torwald!!

What prakash try to tell you is if DRM (embedded in the vista) allowed  to come to India ( where traditional knowledge is  shared for humanity for thousands years) it will lead to death knell to our traditional values, which emphasis the sharing the knowledge and wealth for the benefit of masses, will vanish..

Let me again come to the topic!! Yes the security features in Vista is very good.. Usually it is the Linux people to talk , “ our application can also run like Windows” and showcashed their wares. This is the first time Redmond is seriously advertising how their security features are like “Linux”

So the wheel is coming full circle!!

Thanking you ,
with regards,
Vaithy


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 28, 2007)

Linux has its own benefit, yes we do admit. Even I m working on to make my own bootable USB Drive with Slax installed in it. Its quite modular.

However, the problem is that Linux users are not ready to admit that Microsoft has learned something & came out with a product far better in security then before. You say the Linux developers are talented & thats why they make great software, so do u mean all the MIT, BIT, NID, NIFT graduates in Microsoft software development team are idiots?

Prakash, I will personally Nuke you & torment your room  if you sing your DRM tune again. Your tune is useless in India. You wanna create awareness about DRM, go join Neowin & other European or American forums where DRM actually matters. You will be disappointed cos there u will get reply "yes we do know DRM is bad & yeas we do hate it & yes we are working on to remove. Now keep your tune off"


----------



## praka123 (Jun 29, 2007)

thx for the post @vaithi.i am again saying what is happening in Western countries *can* happen in India too,albeit it will take may be some time.
What i am saying is that with Vista available in India too as anywhere else,it shows the reach of this lobby of business tykoons and DRM and other restrictive technologies are hindering user freedom which most of you dont mind unless otherwise questioned.


			
				[URL="*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/member.php?u=2943" said:
			
		

> sakumar79[/url]] @praka123, I asked a few questions in my earlier post:
> 1. Give me an example of how MS did whatever they wanted and US changed their law for them.
> 2. Suggest an alternative Digital Rights mechanism that is both user friendly as well as (atleast) equally effective
> 3. Why you believe that DRM is used to watch what you are doing and send it back, and that do you think that it was not possible earlier for them to track your personal info and send it if they wanted to?


 1.There are something which are not explained which are understood.
Did u need explanation why turmeric(haldi),basmati rice etc can be patented at US by lawhouses  there?they call the reason "biopiracy",yes what a good logic;eh?
Now as u r not sure,just google for "microsoft lobbying" it spits off each and every tries public notices.
Do you believe that a company filthy rich like M$ cant push their ways with laws?
Why does there is this US vs Microsoft for anti-competent business practises?
*usvms.gpo.gov/
as for business FUDs,M$ "gets the facts" campaign too can be taken.
believe it or not microsoft has got a bunch of "bullyies" in the US law making bodies and M$ does push their stance to be laws
M$ did have this tactics of buying its rival companies or destroy rivals buy FUDing.waiting for everything to be proven is a waste exercise atleast in regard to M$.there is this quote from wikipedia whether the windows infected hate it or what:


> *Corporate*
> 
> Since the 1980s, Microsoft has been the focus of much controversy in the computer industry. Most criticism has been for its business tactics, often described with the motto "embrace, extend and extinguish". Microsoft initially embraces a competing standard or product, then extends it to produce their own incompatible version of the software or standard, which in time extinguishes competition that does not or cannot use Microsoft's new version.[70] These and other tactics have led to various companies and governments filing lawsuits against Microsoft.[71][31][10] Microsoft has been called a "velvet sweatshop" in reference to allegations of the company working its employees to the point where it might be bad for their health. The first instance of "velvet sweatshop" in reference to Microsoft originated from a _Seattle Times_ article in 1989, and later became used to describe the company by some of Microsoft's own employees.[72][73]
> Free software proponents point to the company's joining of the Trusted Computing Platform Alliance (TCPA) as a cause of concern. A group of companies that seek to implement an initiative called Trusted Computing (which is claimed to set out to increase security and privacy in a user's computer), the TCPA is decried by critics as a means to allow software developers to enforce any sort of restriction they wish over their software.


*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft#Criticism
2.I just stated from early itself that i am against implementation of DRM in _any_ of its form,be it in VIsta OS or firmware on players is _Intangible_.the final word that is.
I believe in democracy in an ideal world and US laws can be no saviour if ur poor.The alternate options for DRM-is nothing.no force on people.
let the users decide to purchase copies.just let them aware of piracy.restrictions  must end there.let the brain-pool be used to resolve piracy.
3.How can you believe something closed source?you been taking things for granted.there is sure M$ spywares even in Vista as it is present in earlier versions of Windows that i strongly believe.If you insist,why do you have viruses,malwares and what not in windows platform,dont you think that it is M$' s weak OS system which is responsible for this rather than relying on 3rd party tools(read AV).
*Microsoft Blocks Vista Rootkit Exploit*
M$ WGA is another candidate.

In the same way,i believe a closed source OS *can* have _anything_ its owner can implant on it.this is what i get from researching www.I am the same person who predicted Vista will set u apart Rs15000 at minimum before its release,let me predict-it wont take time even with their locked kernels that viruses can be there within 2 yrs.
Microsoft's hidden files! as i am not going to point the correct web address :
*www.google.co.in/search?q=windows%20hidden%20files%20used%20by%20microsoft&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
DRM is a rootkit,which works inside ur OS as a region.it means that it can contain anything which M$ or crackers can implant that normal AV or RKhunters cant detect.is a reality.

What i want to tell that besides GNU/Linux or Linux,there is a big movement that is gaining momentum called Open Source Movement(FOSS).OSS does not mean that you can not earn money from this.It expects a major change in today's customer-client relationship that is brought up by proprietory companies.It isnt against a software devel earning his pay instead OSS expects subscription based system.

@gx_saurav:leave it.it wont do u good.let ur BOSS's company's karpoot's revealed  enjoy


----------



## adithyagenius (Jun 29, 2007)

Dudes, DRM is already here. I got DRM music on my N70 Music Edition memory card - Legends of India. I cant play the songs on my computer but only on my phone. I hate DRM. But that doesnt mean I will not upgrade to vista once it becomes the gaming platform. With vista I have a choice. I can continue to use it without DRM. I will never buy DRM stuff. But in case on some occassion I have to play DRM content (like getting some disc free with magazine or as a gift) I can still choose to.

Aren't songs bought from itunes store DRM?


----------



## vaithy (Jun 29, 2007)

Dear Praka123,
                   Take my advice, Once I was like you, posted everything and anything come to my way if the word, 'Windows or Linux' uttered in any of the forum.. but now I become more wiser, simply watching, what others say.. It is a good manner if you know that particular poster made a valid argument, then aknowledge it ( even if it is opposed to your idealogy). Also don;t open many fronts diverting from the topic, your main argument may lost ..So far Vista's tauted security yu have no answer.. give the score to opposition gracefully..
About DRM in Vista I fully accept your view.. you should have explained it in your previous posting without tauting M$ and its followers.. Remember many of the Windows users here are also Linux users. When some body say DRM not going to affect them, and they are going to use it, then the matter settled. In the spirit of FOSS , they have the same freedom of choice as the other FOSS. So leave it there.. they are grown up not just kids!! if you feel you to explain to unsuspecting users effect the harm effects of DRM, then raise another topic for the title.. 

with regards,
Vaithy


----------



## praka123 (Jun 29, 2007)

OK. i should end my part in this thread here.let the wise know what is wrong and what is right?and i fully believe in FOSS and the choices,but cant tolerate DRM,that's what i said first and last.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 29, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> thx for the post @vaithi.i am again saying what is happening in Western countries *can* happen in India too,albeit it will take may be some time.



Then we will talk when it comes here. Till then plz don't sing your tune.



> What i am saying is that with Vista available in India too as anywhere else,it shows the reach of this lobby of business tykoons and DRM and other restrictive technologies are hindering user freedom which most of you dont mind unless otherwise questioned.



Like Aditiya said, no one will ever buy DRM content, but with Vista we have a choice that if we get DRM content we can still play it which you cannot do in Linux without hacking & pirating.



> Why does there is this US vs Microsoft for anti-competent business practises? *usvms.gpo.gov/
> as for business FUDs,M$ "gets the facts" campaign too can be taken.
> believe it or not microsoft has got a bunch of "bullyies" in the US law making bodies and M$ does push their stance to be laws



Ya, we believe u blindly. We follow you, all hail prakash . What an insane comment. 



> M$ did have this tactics of buying its rival companies or destroy rivals buy FUDing.



Also known as merger to cut developement costs & share the resources.



> just let them aware of piracy.restrictions  must end there.let the brain-pool be used to resolve piracy.



How? If you have some ideas or method, plz let the bollywood, RIAA, MPAA & other goverment bodies know. They will really appriciate it.



> 3.How can you believe something closed source?you been taking things for granted.there is sure M$ spywares even in Vista as it is present in earlier versions of Windows that i strongly believe.



U r sure? Show us the proof? Your TV is closed source, your phone is closed source, your car is closed source, stop using all of those & develop your own. You will make a Praksh Pokia 1100 in 5 years easily 



> If you insist,why do you have viruses,malwares and what not in windows platform,dont you think that it is M$' s weak OS system which is responsible for this rather than relying on 3rd party tools(read AV).
> *Microsoft Blocks Vista Rootkit Exploit*
> M$ WGA is another candidate.



Every software has bugs in it. The reason Windows has Virus because of its market share. MS learned things with Windows XP SP2 & following that, *today there is no virus out there which affects Vista.*



> DRM is a rootkit,which works inside ur OS as a region.it means that it can contain anything which M$ or crackers can implant that normal AV or RKhunters cant detect.is a reality.



Like I said, plz go & tell the software companies & music companies on how to reduce piracy without DRM. They will galdly hear u.


----------



## Sukhdeep Singh (Jun 29, 2007)

sukhdeepsinghkohli said:
			
		

> Thanks praka123 for enlightening me on that
> 
> But thinking of privacy, wont that make Google a culprit aswell. They can easily know more about you if they want to - i guess
> 
> ...



I still need answer to this, praka ?


----------



## iMav (Jun 29, 2007)

^ sorry u wont get it coz drm drm drm drm drm  useke aage piche kuch nahi baas drm drm drm


----------



## din (Jun 29, 2007)

Now, please, please stop posting any replies to this thread.

And mods, I beg you to lock this thread.

Thank you.


----------



## QwertyManiac (Jun 29, 2007)

Hmm, it seems the report hides a lot of things.

*it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/28/235259&from=rss


----------



## praka123 (Jun 29, 2007)

^yeah me too read that!
@sukhdeepsinghkohli:
Do you want to make companions for M$?do u want google too ?As of yet i dont find any DRM google got.and google is not definitely in the league of M$ as an untrusting company.does google got WGA?
As of yet i feel Google cannot be next M$.atleast they are not a hard-corer against OSS like M$(becoz of fear of lossing OS market atleast some portion)


----------



## Avatar (Jun 29, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> As of yet i feel Google cannot be next M$.atleast *they are not a hard-corer against OSS like M$ *(becoz of fear of lossing OS market atleast some portion)


 
haha

Why wont be some company 'against' its rival , 'rival' does not sound like a friendly word. And google is not in OS compitition yet, even if it comes it will be some kinda new distro like the existing many. So yeah i don't see google going against oss the hardcore way. And what do you expect MS to do ? go on a date with its rival? Everyone wants its compitition to weaken because compitition steals business . But in the end its for customers to choose what they want, no company can force me to buy their product. 
And you believe google more than MS? i bet google has resources to get more information on you or me than any other organization in the world. So just stop chanting DRM in every post.

You believe in OSS yet your mind is closed, have a open mind and realise how things in the world work for everyone else those who dont share your beliefs. And if you cant , then well... hate your own mind for being closed, because you think closed is evil....... what can i do!!


----------



## praka123 (Jun 29, 2007)

IF u r into FOSS,u will understand the pain caused by M$ against this community.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 29, 2007)

OMG....Microsoft people came to Prakash's room & tormented him & vandalised his room, & told him to use Windows on gunpoint , my sympathy with u.

din is right, now more posting in this thread. Prakash is a person with no rational thinking ability.


----------



## sakumar79 (Jun 29, 2007)

1. On the one hand, you are saying MS can do anything and US will change its laws. While trying to back up your statement, you are bringing up MS Anti-Trust Laws. Dont you see that you are providing the proof that you are wrong? I am not saying that what MS does is completely ethical. When it comes to ethics, you have to differentiate between business ethics and moral ethics... Many things MS does will probably not pass under moral ethics... And if the consumer/government/injured party thinks that they are doing somethings that are unethical in business means, then they can sue MS, as there have been many instances. But just because they have been sued doesnt make them unethical. In the US, flinging lawsuits has become almost a joke and a pastime. MS comes into the limelight a lot because it is a large company and many people will look to make a quick buck by sueing the company. You cant justify they are unethical simply because they are sued a lot.
2 & 3. If you are against the implementation of DRM in any form, then I cant help you. Obviously, you are all for open source and you look at anything that is closed source with a suspicious eye. I would call it being paranoid, but you may call it playing safe. In the same sense, as others have pointed it out, you should not use a lot of other technology, such as credit cards, internet banking, cellphones, etc because they use closed source technology and have the ability to pass on your browsing habits, etc when you use them.

Regarding DRM, are you not aware that there is a copyright statement on the cassettes that you purchase regarding making copies and broadcasting in public? When I was in my college years, I saw a lot of piracy going on around me. Heck, I was part of the problem too. Later in my life, as I started to work, and began to mature, I realised what I did was wrong, and cleared out pretty much what I pirated... Either purchase the CDs for the songs I pirated or atleast remove them from my computers... Unfortunately, not everyone matures. And in developping countries like India, piracy is rampant. If you tell a person "piracy is wrong, buy the original", which costs a much larger sum than the pirated version, the person will say "Go to hell" and purchase the pirated version only. So, what is wrong with the music/movie industry to look after their own interests in reducing piracy? If you think all users have the moral ethics to make the right choice, you are living in a utopian world. Giving the users freedom to choose between pirated free music and legal paid music is laughable in the current world scenario. You are only looking at it from the end-user's point of view and not from the creator's point of view... The creator has to have the authority to dictate how his/her product is to be distributed. And if they try to misuse the authority, the government has the right to intervene. But saying that they shouldnt be given the authority at all is wrong.

And if you think DRM is the only way MS can incorporate track-and-inform methods, you are dreaming. There are many technologies that exist from Win 9x days that can be used to track your info. If you dont trust them, dont use it... 

Arun


----------



## mediator (Jun 29, 2007)

*www.linux-watch.com/news/NS3428189546.html


----------



## iMav (Jun 29, 2007)

^^ if 1 can accuse a praiser saying he is praising coz he is employed by some 1 then with the same logic why should 1 listen to some 1 who is a competitor .... he will bash coz he is a competitor and actually hates the other person


----------



## vaithy (Jun 29, 2007)

Hello,
Hmmm, again starting the fight, so be it...

Dear sukhdeepsinghkohli,   Google and other ISP collect the information of the users, they them selves admit it when the services signed but at the same time your privacy is protected with google services.. remember how they stand up against the HOme land Security guys ( one version is they should have provided the users DATA to the GOVT)  If they do next minute you may expect some visit from the local consular office goons at your door step(on a mistaken identity) with DRM embebed in your system with or without your permission, you'll be sitting duck to the Redmond's target practice.. It is not you , but they will control what sort of software to be installed and what sort of hardwares to be configured...Once they do you don't have freedom of selecting best hardware ( what best you think need not be best for Redmond)
Since you already know I am not telling that you should not use DRM enabled services, It is your choice so I leave you there..
 @ praka123 pl. don't try to continue the subject, there is no need to alarm that M$ is trying to crush FOSS with their money power.. FOSS is not a single organisation neither it depend the survival by the likes of RMS or Linux Torwald.. it is much more biggest and better organised now...More governments in the south Americans states and Africans states are drawing to its magnetism.. M$ only trump card is US patents portfolio ( as told by M$ representative) But their Law is totally variance with Indian Patents and European .. where in many of the countries software is not coming under patent only copyrights can be claimed, only in USA they claimed Software Patents. There fore there is no need to panicky, as India is still maintaining its sovereignty and not coming under USA like Iraq, Open source and Free software Movement is still in a strong wicket.. 
Youth like you can be immense service to the FOSS, if you maintain the following ethics.
Never attack the opponents directly. state your views without attacking them. Ofcourse, if you are provoked sensible thing is to ignore it but concentrates on your point... you may make more friends even with a divergence audience..
Help the needy newbie in the opensource section, about the installation and other related problems in Linux. Remember.. out of 60 peoples online only six peoples are regularly posting, and if you believe they are against you, simply concentrates on the other 55 peoples who may not post but get the points very quickly..If they believe you are personally attacking , they may get the negative views about your views.. 

Thanking you all,
with regards,
Vaithy


----------



## mediator (Jun 29, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> ^^ if 1 can accuse a praiser saying he is praising coz he is employed by some 1 then with the same logic why should 1 listen to some 1 who is a competitor .... he will bash coz he is a competitor and actually hates the other person


Korrect! U shud spread this word of urs to the masses, write blogs about MS's FUDs!!


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 29, 2007)

Nah, we don't like to spread FUD like MS or Linux does. We just write our own experience.

And blog is not just for technological things, it is also for personal life writings.


----------



## iMav (Jun 29, 2007)

vaithy said:
			
		

> Hello,
> Hmmm, again starting the fight, so be it...
> 
> Dear sukhdeepsinghkohli,   Google and other ISP collect the information of the users, they them selves admit it when the services signed but at the same time your privacy is protected with google services.. remember how they stand up against the HOme land Security guys ( one version is they should have provided the users DATA to the GOVT)  If they do next minute you may expect some visit from the local consular office goons at your door step(on a mistaken identity) with DRM embebed in your system with or without your permission, you'll be sitting duck to the Redmond's target practice.. It is not you , but they will control what sort of software to be installed and what sort of hardwares to be configured...Once they do you don't have freedom of selecting best hardware ( what best you think need not be best for Redmond)
> ...


 is it very hard for u people to understand that AMD (they make procesors ... which are the heart of computers - i was taught this in school) along with ati are working to come out with drm at chip level where does MS come in picture here ... all corporates are in this together ... MS, AMD every1 ... apple will have to follow suit and so will intel ... so stop bashing MS for drm ... just coz they looked at the future and doing so in vista they already provided the *ability to play* drm content u r bashing them .... rational understanding any1


----------



## din (Jun 29, 2007)

WOW

This is really nice. "Friendly" fight again. Please continue 

Still just a humble request to all experts / geeks / macboys / win boys/ lin boys and all technical gurus posting here.

Would you please change the topic title to any of these ?

1. DRM, come, lets fight regarding DRM here

2. Yash Raj Movies and DRM, your comments

3. Discuss everything except Windows Vista Security

4. Digital Millenium Copyright act, Privacy and Piracy

Special Request : Anyway to connect the Rajanikanth movie 'Shivaji' to DRM ? Please, someone give a try. Everyone will be more interested and we can make this thread a record, a lot of people will post again, in between the present fight can continue too. Good suggestion rt ?


----------



## iMav (Jun 29, 2007)

din the thread has a flow and its going where members are taking it ... how about posting something that is related to what ever is being discussed  as it is there is a lot of info within the thread itself regards to drm, vista's security, linux's security and also current technologies that bollywood is looking at ....

the thread has a lot of info in it


----------



## Sukhdeep Singh (Jun 29, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> ^yeah me too read that!
> @sukhdeepsinghkohli:
> Do you want to make companions for M$?do u want google too ?As of yet i dont find any DRM google got.and google is not definitely in the league of M$ as an untrusting company.does google got WGA?
> As of yet i feel Google cannot be next M$.atleast they are not a hard-corer against OSS like M$(becoz of fear of lossing OS market atleast some portion)


Microsoft has a strong Desktop Presence on the other hand Google has a strong Web Presence. What goes behind the scene at Google nobody knows...right ?

Pay 100 Blogger money to start writing about Google and Privacy and i am 110% sure it will change the mind set of millions

For WGA - you mean Windows Geniune Advantage validation - whats wrong with company trying to protect their software with advanced ways to stop piracy ?

Not trusting something closed source - Man! World runs on trust. Having a suspicious eye at evrything is like....those vamps in Sas-bahu sagas


----------



## din (Jun 29, 2007)

@iMav

I think you are right. May be I am too old 

As I always I say, long back, when some one post a topic in a forum, all replied with something related to that.

And now, as per your comment, the thread goes to wherever the members are taking it. No complaints, let it go. May be 'forums', 'topics', 'posts' etc has been changed a lot recently. 

Now, you see it discuss 

"drm, vista's security, linux's security and also current technologies that bollywood is looking at"

And of course - Yash Raj, Karan Johar etc

Only question is, people may not know we are discussing such topics inside this thread, so people who are interested in knowing DRM or Yash Raj / Karan Johar movies may not   read this.

That is the reason I mentioned it will be really nice we change the topic title, we can make it very genral. Like

"Vista Security, DRM, Linux Security, Yash Raj Movies, FUD etc - Discuss here"

So that covers all and more people will sure go through this thread and contribute more. 

Not joking, seriously


----------



## Sukhdeep Singh (Jun 29, 2007)

^^ Nice suggestion. Request a Mod to split the topic


----------



## mediator (Jun 29, 2007)

@din: U need to look at other threads in fight club. There's already an official thread to discuss OS1 Vs OS2. But there have been zillions of fightss on such topic in diff sections and moderators have surrendered over it.


----------



## iMav (Jun 29, 2007)

all i can say is drm drm drm drm drm 

in india they say if u have 2 people u will 3 opinions, now u can do the math and figure it out ... besides i would also suggest renaming the thread to ... vista and its various security features ...


----------



## din (Jun 29, 2007)

@mediator

1. That is fight club section, and it is only for fight.

2. We had a thread exclusively for discussing these unwanted fights (that is locked now) and almost all agreed to stop unwanted and unrelated topics but after 1 day, all started again.

3. Please have a look at 

*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61518

I mentioned the reasons there.

4. Just coz any other threads goes diverted or unwanted fight going on - does not mean that we should do the same in every thread. Should we ?

5. If you justify the fight and think there is nothing wrong, then why not we change the topic title ? Now all people who didn't go through this thread will be thinking that all replies are related to security in Vista. They do not know we are discussing other subjects (that I mentioned in my previous post), so why not changing the topic title to include that ? So that it will be more beneficial to all members here


----------



## iMav (Jun 29, 2007)

unfortunately changing the title can only be done by the moderators so pm the mods and see what they have to say  reason it out with them


----------



## gxsaurav (Jun 29, 2007)

As long as Prakash does not start thinking properly, each thread will be full of his paranoia & DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM


----------



## vaithy (Jun 29, 2007)

Hmmm... it seem although I advised praka123 to stay away so the fight may end, but I could not resist to post here, 

The intent of DRM is to provide technical means to assure that the creators of content such as artistic works maintain appropriate control of their work, including the ability to obtain compensation for their creative investment. 
     This becomes controversial because of three main factors: the traditions and culture of the web which include free and open access to all information; unintended consequences of DRM in limiting the fair use of legitimately acquired digital media in ways traditionally not restricted in other media; 
 another argument against DRM is it affect the personal rights guranteed under the Constitution of India.. 
         See the example.. this computer that I am typing this posting is my personal property .. when a software under the hood of  DRM try to modify the settings that I made then it affect my personal rights, I can claim damages for unauthorized trespassing to my territory ( the computer). But you may claim DRM is a legal rights of the software vendors( not in India perhaps in USA) which is enforceable? It is the personal rights of the Individual that any court in India would uphold it..Personal rights is important to every  citizen of India.. it can be suspended only during War and emergency ( Smt.Indira Gandhi paid heavy price for it). If you doubt my word pl. consult some legal friends of yours..

Thanking you,
with regards,
Vaithy


----------



## iMav (Jun 29, 2007)

^^ and ur point is ... we know all that u typed ... how is it affecting indians as of now ....


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jul 2, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> As long as Prakash does not start thinking properly, each thread will be full of his paranoia & DRM DRM DRM DRM DRM


yups .


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 4, 2007)

Vista...the *most* secure OS to date?!

Seriously, what are you smoking?  I'd like to invite you to blow the little flying Windows out of your grape and check out a really secure OS...

*www.openbsd.org

When Vista has been around 10 years and can claim only 2 remote exploit vulnerabilities, I'll believe you that it's up there with OpenBSD.

Now don't get me wrong, I like Linux.  I use Linux.  But I don't parade around claiming nonsense.  Linux has it's share of security problems...this is true.  But let's get serious here...Vista might be the most secure *Microsoft* OS to date...but to claim overall?  Surely ye jest!


----------



## gxsaurav (Jul 4, 2007)

^^^^ Do you know which catagory OpenBSD falls in? whether it is Desktop OS or Server/Cluster computing UNIX.

Vista is the most secure Desktop OS till date .


----------



## chesss (Jul 4, 2007)

> Vista is the most secure Desktop OS till date .


 pcbsd


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 4, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> ^^^^ Do you know which catagory OpenBSD falls in? whether it is Desktop OS or Server/Cluster computing UNIX.
> 
> Vista is the most secure Desktop OS till date .



Ahh, the tune changes!

See now, that's funny, because I've used OpenBSD as a desktop.  Yeah, I listened to mp3's, surfed the web, check my e-mail, watched movies, (and don't even get me started on OpenBSD's built-in firewall, because nothing that runs on Windows (Microsoft or otherwise) can touch pf), etc...sigh...no l33t games, though, but it sure beats the snot out of running so much (AV/Antispyware/etc...) in the background that I can hardly use my machine!  I guess if you consider it only to be a "desktop" if you can play the latest games on it, then OpenBSD isn't a desktop system...

Actually, I like to think of OpenBSD's *category* as being "secure computing", regardless of what "tag" you apply to it...it makes a killer server, firewall appliance, or secure desktop.

And I would second the motion for PCBSD, but FreeBSD (and derivatives) still can't really touch OpenBSD, desktop or server.  If we were talking performance, then FreeBSD/PCBSD would take the cake, but since we're talking security...ahh, well...

edit - oh, I get it...you mean Desktop as in "so easy a caveman could do it"?  Yeah, if you're into letting other people make decisions for you, then I could see the issue with OpenBSD...it's not for the faint of heart or the weak of intellect...but it DOES make a killer desktop!


----------



## kumarmohit (Jul 4, 2007)

^^ Hmm I was wondering how many people use BSD. So much for a "Killer Desktop" 

BSD is great and all but its not very popular either. Not saying that it because BSD follows the principle of Security but I would really love to meet a non IT guy who uses BSD.


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 5, 2007)

kumarmohit said:
			
		

> ^^ Hmm I was wondering how many people use BSD. So much for a "Killer Desktop"


You got me there...I've been programming since I was 8 years old...hardly a "typical home user", eh?

But if the topic was "Vista is still the most *popular* secure OS to date", then I'd be forced to agree.  Unfortunately for your argument, the topic states simply that Vista is the most secure OS...which has already been proven to be incorrect.  Also, since this *isn't* a popularity contest, I am forced to point and laugh at you for attempting to salvage some dignity when proven wrong.

haha@you

Point is, one shouldn't create such an idiotic thread topic without expecting a "Fight Club" style debate...

A trolling I will go, a trolling I will go...heh

edit - 


			
				kumarmohit said:
			
		

> BSD is great and all but its not very popular either.


This is a *really* good point, actually.  The BSD's aren't typically "market share holders".  Why is this, you ask?  Because no matter how you cut it, you can't point and click your way to a secure system.  I can see why RHE and Ubuntu were chosen to run statistics against...they're both (for the most part) point-and-click systems.  Give me this analysis with Hardened Gentoo (none of that SELinux crap...I want PAX/RSBAC or grsecurity), OpenBSD, and Vista, and we might have a reality check in the making...(before you argue that those aren't "mainstream" setups, let me remind you that security was a major focus with Vista...so it would only be right to compare Vista to security-minded Linux and BSD).  As for the Ubuntu fans...go get a real Linux distro ya effin noobs!


----------



## kumarmohit (Jul 5, 2007)

Naturally this is not a popularity contest, but if BSD despite being great and all, is still not used by a Non IT/Programming user. I think its security features are all a waste.

What is the value of having a highly secure swiss bank (read BSD) if common people still have to keep their money buried in the backyard(Read Vista)

As for the point and click way to secure system, if there is no such way than  it must be developed, You dont expect everyone whi can buy a comput er has to learn how it works.

I have a car, All I want to know is how to drive it, not the entire work mechanism of a car. Unless I am give a simple lock and key in the car, I can;t secure it, because not everyone knows how lock engagement can disable fuel being sent to car engine.

What I am saying is that degree of Security varies. It can be different for me becuase I keep on trying new things on PC, But for a common PC user, who does not venture in trying new softwares etc and installing every thing they can lay their hands security is a dfferent concept.


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jul 5, 2007)

kumarmohit said:
			
		

> Naturally this is not a popularity contest, but if BSD despite being great and all, is still not used by a Non IT/Programming user. I think its security features are all a waste.
> 
> What is the value of having a highly secure swiss bank (read BSD) if common people still have to keep their money buried in the backyard(Read Vista)


 and for how many years do the end-users have to wait for the latest software(majority) to be ported to BSD ?


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 5, 2007)

I have a car.  I'm not a mechanic.  I've put in the effort to *learn* how to accomplish routine tasks to ensure the safety and security of my car.

Likewise, if I were given the opportunity to use a bank that was more secure, I'd put forth the effort to *learn*.

Point is, I'm not afraid to ask questions and put in effort to expand my knowledge of a given topic.  I wasn't born with knowledge of programming, or computer security, or how internal combustion engines operate, or <whatever>.  I put in the effort to learn because I realize that businesses are just that:  a venue of money making for a couple of people.  When corporations start truly caring about their end users, *then* end users can place a bit of trust in the products they produce.  Until then (never, I'd argue), people who blindly trust big business are idiots.

So what can be done?  Well, if I buy a car and it proves to be more trouble than it's worth (which has happened before, I can assure you), then I check out the competition.  Oh, that Ford was a junker?  Great...I'll ask around for opinions on Hondas, or Chevys, or whatever.  I research.  I learn.  I don't wait for Service Pack 27 to be released.  I move on.  Typical Windows user?  Been with M$ since day 1, through thick and thin, vulnerability after vulnerability...kinda makes you wonder who the idiot is, huh?

And Zeeshan, your post proves how little you know about open source.  There are zero Windows programs that have been ported to *BSD...why?  Because no one using BSD wants a buggy program that will introduce gaping security holes to their OS.  What if I like xyz program running in Linux?  Oh jeez...I install a compatibility package and I run the f*cking program *unmodified* on my BSD system!  Or, better yet, I grab the source code and I build it from source (which sounds scary, but I can assure you it's nothing of the sort...) so it'll run native on my BSD machine.


But building from source...that takes KNOWLEDGE!

Bull.  It takes this:

$ ./configure
<bunch of output>
$ make
<more output>

(and if I want to install it system wide):

# make install
<more output>

Sigh...I dunno if I can handle that...it's just too complex for even "typical home users".


----------



## iMav (Jul 5, 2007)

rocket357 said:
			
		

> vulnerability after vulnerability...kinda makes you wonder who the idiot is, huh?


 may be u could tell me an OS which was released a decade ago and has no update release and is still running strong  u wont be able to come up with 1 even in the last 3 years ... the thing is an update has to be made nothing in this world was made perfect the first time not even human ... so ur point of vulnerability after vulnerability shows who is the idiot


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 5, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> may be u could tell me an OS which was released a decade ago and has no update release and is still running strong  u wont be able to come up with 1 even in the last 3 years ... the thing is an update has to be made nothing in this world was made perfect the first time not even human ... so ur point of vulnerability after vulnerability shows who is the idiot


First, I never said anything was perfect upon release.  Software is created by humans, and as such it has flaws...even OpenBSD has "bugfixes", but only twice in ten years has a bug resulted in a remote exploit.  Why?  Because OpenBSD is written for *code accuracy* (not security...security just happens to be a side-effect of accurate code).

Second, Microsoft has released how many revisions of their OS in the past 10 years?  How many required Service Packs that re-wrote 1/2 the OS?  Sounds to me like someone could use a lesson in *code accuracy*.

How many chances for remote exploit has Microsoft seen in 10 years?  Now that we've established that, how many has OpenBSD seen?  Oh, that's right...two.

10 years?  That's old history, right?

Let's say six months, then...how many for Microsoft in six months?  How many for OpenBSD?  One.

Vulnerability after vulnerability?  Indeed.

Edit - Vista wasn't released a decade ago...A decade ago Microsoft was still pushing the 9x series and we all know how THAT went for security purposes!  In 1997, Windows 95 was at the helm of the Microsoft list...and security was so good in Win95 that I could hit escape at the login prompt, append a few characters to another user's password file, and then try to login as that user.  Win95 was so kind that when it realized the password file was corrupted, it would ASK ME FOR A NEW PASSWORD for a user I shouldn't have had write access to!  A decade ago, OpenBSD was beginning the massive code audit that is still going to this day.  I guarantee you that even though bugs existed at that stage in the code, the system was intelligent enough to resist a simple attack such as the one I just described...

Have you read an OpenBSD vulnerability report?  What about a Microsoft vulnerability report?

< taken from *www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/986425 > March, 2007
OpenBSD:  Systems connected to public IPv6 networks are particularly at risk from this vulnerability. However, since link-local addresses are part of the IPv6 specification and configured by default on Ethernet interfaces, even systems that have not been explicitly configured to use public IPv6 networks are vulnerable to attack from other systems *on the same physical network* or multicast network.

That's right...to exploit this bug, someone needs to be on my network already (and using the next generation ipv6, which isn't in widespread use except for Japan and academic institutions).  The patch to fix it was available after a few days, and in the mean time a *single line modification to one config file* was all that it took to nullify this exploit.

< taken from: *www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/511577 > Feb. 2007
Microsoft:  *Microsoft Malware Protection Engine* contains a vulnerability that could be exploited when it attempts to process specially crafted PDF files. According to Microsoft Security Bulletin MS07-010, an integer overflow vulnerability exists in the way that the Microsoft Malware Protection Engine processes Portable Document Format (PDF) files. An attacker with the ability to supply a specially crafted PDF file could exploit this vulnerability. Note that according to Microsoft the Malware Protection Engine is a coponent of the following:
Windows Live OneCare
Microsoft Antigen for Exchange 9.x
Microsoft Antigen for SMTP Gateway 9.x
Microsoft Windows Defender
Microsoft Windows Defender x64 Edition
*Microsoft Windows Defender in Windows Vista*
Microsoft Forefront Security for Exchange Server
Microsoft Forefront Security for SharePoint
Ok, let me get this straight...the software in the system that's designed to protect the system is vulnerable itself?!  Good God almighty, what's this world coming to?

What about a fix for this bug?  Oh, an update!  Yay.


----------



## iMav (Jul 5, 2007)

ok here we go again with the security blah blah how many times have we to discuss the same old windows is not secure mummy bachao crap ....


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 5, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> ok here we go again with the security blah blah how many times have we to discuss the same old windows is not secure mummy bachao crap ....



Is that not the claim of this entire thread?  Read the title and whine some more about security issues...

If it upsets you, go read some other thread.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jul 5, 2007)

rocket357 said:
			
		

> Is that not the claim of this entire thread?  Read the title and whine some more about security issues...
> 
> If it upsets you, go read some other thread.



Tell me something, what are you trying to prove here?

Each & every software out there has bugs. Even BSD & Linux kernel. The code audit which you talked about in case of BSD is a good thing, but I guess they never looked into the desktop segment, isn't it?

Well, if they have such a solid code, such a solid back end, then why don't we see them competing with Linux or Windows in Desktop space?

Why do u think MS & Windows dominates in Desktop space? Thats because most of the home users are not Ex-KGB or M16 Employees, & Don't give much damn to security. Virus & malware are over hyped. If you are running a good AV Software which usually comes at a discount with an OEM computer such as Dell bundling NIS 07, then you are protected by default from all the user weakness.

You are talking about the security of BSD. I ask you a few things

1) Will BSD work with my Webcam or SE K750i?

2) Will it let me play & rip my HD DVD/DVD/DivX

3) Will it run Microsoft office?

4) Will it let me use the computer my way?

Oh & plz don't say "You can use KDE in BSD". If I wanted to do that I would prefer Linux which is more supported by hardware companies in desktop space compared to BSD.

BSD is UNIX, it is good for what it is made for. Not for desktop in its current state, keeping this in mind you cannot compare BSD (A server/cluster OS) with Vista (a consumer OS).


----------



## kalpik (Jul 5, 2007)

^^ For god's sake, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE _READ_ the thread title!!
*Vista is still the most secure OS to date.*


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 5, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Tell me something, what are you trying to prove here?


Honestly, if I posted that Toyota makes the finest luxury automobile on the planet, I'd get flamed, too.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Well, if they have such a solid code, such a solid back end, then why don't we see them competing with Linux or Windows in Desktop space?


Because it takes a reasonable amount of intellectual horsepower to use BSD/Linux, and the communities surrounding them aren't keen on whiners.  If you're willing to help yourself, then those communities will bend over backwards to assist...but if you come at  it like a typical Windows home user, you'll get laughed at.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Why do u think MS & Windows dominates in Desktop space? Thats because most of the home users are not Ex-KGB or M16 Employees, & Don't give much damn to security.


Therein lies the rub.  But look at the title of this thread and you tell me if security is irrelevant *to the context of this discussion*.  I didn't see ANYTHING in the title concerning "user security"...



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> You are talking about the security of BSD. I ask you a few things
> 
> 1) Will BSD work with my Webcam or SE K750i?
> 
> ...


1) depends on if the hardware manufacturer has released specs to the OpenBSD team (if it works in Linux, there's no excuse).
2) Are you reading my posts?  I stated earlier that I watch movies all the time (check out the MPlayer project).
3) First, it runs OpenOffice, second, I can run CrossOver Office should I desire.
4) Hrmmm...this is quite a subjective statement, but let me make a few assumptions:

a) if your way involves avoiding the Big Scary Command Line, then it's possible if you have someone set it up for you so you can avoid it (though why would you want to?)
b) if your way involves command line usage, then you should have no problems whatsoever.



			
				kalpik said:
			
		

> ^^ For god's sake, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE _READ_ the thread title!!
> *Vista is still the most secure OS to date.*


Thank you for pointing this out...I get the distinct impression that some individuals here aren't listening to me (dunno why...it's a security debate, or at least that's what I thought)...

Edit - oh man, Kalpik, your signature's awesome...hahaha


----------



## din (Jul 5, 2007)

> 1) Will BSD work with my Webcam or SE K750i?
> 
> 2) Will it let me play & rip my HD DVD/DVD/DivX
> 
> ...



LOL, sorry again, failed to see how these are related to ...

No, not typing the same again, don't get angry 

As iMav says, topic goes wheerever the users takes it. so NP

But I liked your 3rd question, lol that sounded kinda funny for me 

You really meant that ? 

@rocket357

Man, guess what ? Your post is nice. If you go through the top few threads in this section you can see very nice (oops, 'friendly' too) fight between Win / Lin / Mac guys. The Win team get a lot of time, so they post more, Lin guys post replies but not much , Mac guys very lil.

In short most threads go to win-lin-mac fight but that also not in a healthy manner.

And most threads goes very biased and one-sided, so its nice to see some posts differ from that trend.

Anyway, I am reading your post at 11.30 night and I think I didn't waste my time at all. Thank you.


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 5, 2007)

din said:
			
		

> @rocket357
> 
> Man, guess what ? Your post is nice. If you go through the top few threads in this section you can see very nice (oops, 'friendly' too) fight between Win / Lin / Mac guys. The Win team get a lot of time, so they post more, Lin guys post replies but not much , Mac guys very lil.
> 
> ...



Glad you like what you see.  Now don't get me wrong...I'm a Linux guy at heart.  I don't run some generic "compiled for maximum bloat" crap that you typically see in "user friendly" distros...I run a stripped down and lean gentoo install.  I compile the kernel for MY hardware...not for portability or compatibility.  I use FreeBSD and OpenBSD as well, though I tend to do less tweaking of those systems.

That aside, I couldn't resist when I saw the title...sorry if I've offended some people here, but honestly if I posted some blanket statement that's obviously wrong, I'd get it just as bad.

Look at the author of the study in question.  He's not just an M$ guy...he's an M$ employee!  Jeez, do you think this study is biased?  (Reminds me of a "Get the Facts" study that was funded by M$ and was skewed to no end)  Now, I believe that eliminating bias is impossible, and reducing it is difficult at best...but if I go around parading that my Gentoo system is the most secure system on the planet, I'd be wrong, too, and I'd deserve the lashing I'd get.

To those of you who've so diligently defended Microsoft...my hat's off to you...you have a tough job...heh.

And those of you who came across as mature, intelligent individuals (kumarmohit, in particular), it's been a pleasure debating with you!

Now then, where was I?

Ahh yes, OpenBSD > Vista...any takers?


----------



## iMav (Jul 5, 2007)

mummy bachao windows is not secure ... mummy bachao ... some 1's got a problem with the claims of the source go fight with em .... coz we have done this so many times and every time the OSS/MAC hav got their arse whooped and stopped posting until some new 1 comes around

hey gx be careful man ... windows is not secure some 1 might hack into ur machine or leave a worm or something and steal ur secret reciepe for staying fit

*if some 1 doesnt know how to use an OS its not the OS's fault*


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 6, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> mummy bachao windows is not secure ... mummy bachao ... some 1's got a problem with the claims of the source go fight with em .... coz we have done this so many times and every time the OSS/MAC hav got their arse whooped and stopped posting until some new 1 comes around
> 
> hey gx be careful man ... windows is not secure some 1 might hack into ur machine or leave a worm or something and steal ur secret reciepe for staying fit
> 
> *if some 1 doesnt know how to use an OS its not the OS's fault*



Sigh...winning through sheer force of numbers is for losers.  Truth, however, stands on it's own.  And might I add, of all the people who have posted, you (iMav) have made the LEAST sense.  If you're sick of these debates, WHY ARE YOU READING THIS POST?

My angle here is the title of the thread.  It's horribly incorrect.  If it had stated "Vista is still the most secure mainstream desktop OS" (which RHE technically isn't a desktop system, but that's irrelevant), then I'd have passed on without a second thought.


----------



## praka123 (Jul 6, 2007)

You dont know how sick it is here.some M$ user will post such a blog quote from somewhere and there we started.they want to tell that Vista is the next thing to GOD.may be u can be there in Open Source better and most pragmatic and lenient people knows what you are telling is reality.but spoonfed from their earlier computer days with windows is-what I use is better ideology(or what gui am familiar is the best) much more stronger.I ended up with another topic(DRM-n vista) when i tried letting them know the reality.even another guy quoted my post from another mag forum just to defend Vista  where i just pointed out Linux kernel *may* be not the best-but bsd may be.
if u watch tech news section,weekly some "Get the facts" like posts from the visionaries.


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 6, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> You dont know how sick it is here.some M$ user will post such a blog quote from somewhere and there we started.they want to tell that Vista is the next thing to GOD.may be u can be there in Open Source better and most pragmatic and lenient people knows what you are telling is reality.but spoonfed from their earlier computer days with windows is-what I use is better ideology(or what gui am familiar is the best) much more stronger.I ended up with another topic(DRM-n vista) when i tried letting them know the reality.even another guy quoted my post from another mag forum just to defend Vista  where i just pointed out Linux kernel *may* be not the best-but bsd may be.
> if u watch tech news section,weekly some "Get the facts" like posts from the visionaries.



Yeah, I saw that rant a few of the Windoze kiddies had about your DRM jaunt.  Sad part is, a topic that comes up repeatedly is how Windows allows users to "use their computers how they want", but what they don't realize is that Microsoft is placing DRM there as a method of control.  Quite a few hardware vendors have started implementing hardware DRM, and as soon as M$ patches Windows to make use of this hardware DRM, it's "bye bye movie-time".

It's a sad story, but it's true.  (Even moreso if you've EVER had a DRM-related failure, so a movie or game you bought legally STILL won't work!)  Doh?


----------



## sakumar79 (Jul 6, 2007)

@imav, the question is not whether Vista is secure or not... We all know that Vista is a very secure OS so far... But the topic posted says Vista is the most secure OS to date... That is not correct...

Arun


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 6, 2007)

sakumar79 said:
			
		

> @imav, the question is not whether Vista is secure or not... We all know that Vista is a very secure OS so far... But the topic posted says Vista is the most secure OS to date... That is not correct...
> 
> Arun


Ahh, someone sees my point...

I won't argue against Vista being more secure than any previous versions of Windows, or Mac OSX, or even my beloved Linux (in it's newb-friendly/eye-candy form, at least).  Vista has address layout randomization (well, the corporate/ultimate/whatever does...you have to pay $400 to get that kind of security, but it's there)...guaranteed that technology has been around since 2001 (IBM ProPolice), and was rolled into the GNU C Compiler in April of 2004 (the compiler used mainly on GNU/Linux systems, in case anyone is wondering), but it's there...and that's a step in the right direction =)

Sigh...my work here is done!

Edit - I'd still like to see the same test run against PAX/RSBAC Gentoo, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, and Vista...just for comparison's sake...


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jul 6, 2007)

rocket357 said:
			
		

> 1) depends on if the hardware manufacturer has released specs


 which most hardware vendors don't give a damn about , so most "new" user products don't work on Linux/Unix/BSD.



			
				rocket357 said:
			
		

> 2) Are you reading my posts?  I stated earlier that I watch movies all the time (check out the MPlayer project).


 Seriously , are you trying to Compare Windows Media Player 11 to MPlayer . MPlayer is good , but WMP 11 is a lot more than a media player and has excellent media management capabilities . And with the K-Lite Codec Pack installed , MPlayer is no way near WMP 11 .



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> Vista is the next thing to GOD


 see , you're telling my feelings .

I too do not say that Vista is next to GOD but when some jerk comes on and starts saying 
"Vista is Crap {Put your OS Here} is the best ..." then it gets my nerves 

Every software has it's advantages and flaws and everyone is free to use whatever they like , but just don't rant .

@Rocket357 , if MS didn't implement DRM in Windows Media Center Edition , then CAS users wouldn't be able to watch TV using their PC which would kill the whole concept of their Product , thus to make their product support as many platforms(TV) as possible , they implemented the respective DRM techniwues as were being used by Various TV operators


----------



## mediator (Jul 6, 2007)

@Zeeshan: MS-fanboyism has taken a toll on ur mind or wat?


> which most hardware vendors don't give a damn about , so most "new" user products don't work on Linux/Unix/BSD.


This thread isn't abt the hardware vendors giving driver support, neither there is a popularity contest and OS hasn't been classified by the MS mercenary that created the source of this thread!! Can't u read simple English?



> Seriously , are you trying to Compare Windows Media Player 11 to MPlayer . MPlayer is good , but WMP 11 is a lot more than a media player and has excellent media management capabilities . And with the K-Lite Codec Pack installed , MPlayer is no way near WMP 11 .


Seriously, did u read the post of ur fellow musketeer from ur grp the "3musketeer" before starting comparisons again? I know how great WMP is that it cant even play ISO files click and play like Mplayer does by default!!



> Every software has it's advantages and flaws and everyone is free to use whatever they like , but just don't rant


I guess u shud tell this to the fellow who created the source and advice MS which has spreadng FUD as its hobby!!


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jul 6, 2007)

Man , the reply wasn't even to your post , Rocket357 replied that BSD will support devices if hardware vendors release it's specifications to BSD team . and as most user-product hardware vendors don't take *NIX as serious business area so they won't support it initially(then OS drivers will be made by reverse engineering and the likes and then the hardware will be supported).



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Seriously, did u read the post of ur fellow musketeer from ur grp the "3musketeer" before starting comparisons again? I know how great WMP is that it cant even play ISO files click and play like Mplayer does by default!!


Yes , it does not play ISO files coz it's meant to play Media files and ISO files r specialized data files that contain media files , so u can mount an ISO file and en play it normally using WMP .

and for your sake , just compare the UI of WMP to MPlayer and you'll know what i mean(or should i provide screenshots).

Going by your way , even i can say GNU Linux cannot play games , so do i have to bring this up each and every time in a thread ?


----------



## Avatar (Jul 6, 2007)

rocket357 said:
			
		

> Yeah, I saw that rant a few of the Windoze kiddies had about your DRM jaunt. *Sad part is, a topic that comes up repeatedly is how Windows allows users to "use their computers how they want"*, but what they don't realize is that Microsoft is placing DRM there as a method of control.


 
Hail to the super uber elite dude from a windoze kiddie , 

I was just reading your posts till you joined prakash with the DRM BS , if you have read the previous posts then it is clear that DRM is not a technology which can ever be liked by a user. But the thing is there and i like that the OS provides me with the feature of playing the protected content as well as the normal unprotected one. When someone chooses his/her OS they know what they are opting for and I choose vista with DRM knowing the fact that i have not and never will buy any protected content. But those which intend to buy the feature is supported. Also suggest a alternate for DRM so companies can protect their intellectual property without annoying the end user. 




> I don't run some generic "compiled for maximum bloat" crap that you typically see in "user friendly" distros...I run a stripped down and lean gentoo install. I compile the kernel for MY hardware...not for portability or compatibility.


 
Some people like to go more user friendly bloat way. Do you milk your doodwala's cow when you need milk ? i guess not because you are not doodhwala(i hope). Similarly not everyone is computer user like you and they use 'user friendly' distros or windows to get their work done and i hope you have respect for them unlike many users in this forum who think windows users are necessarily inferior.

on topic , lets hope a comparision comes from a source which everyone agrees to be non biased. Wait till then.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jul 6, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> Seriously, did u read the post of ur fellow musketeer from ur grp the "3musketeer" before starting comparisons again? I know how great WMP is that it cant even play ISO files click and play like Mplayer does by default!!



My Fellow ignorant forum member, mind telling us here whether ISO is one of the most widely used Media format out there or not.? Mind telling us how u ge ISO files (piracy)? Mind telling us, how mplayer plays ISO files without mounting 

Oh, well....it doesn't, mplayer does something which in WMP the user has to do manually. Mount the ISO. Sorry, Windows Media Player cannot support a piracy format to play video like this.


----------



## Avatar (Jul 6, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> My Fellow ignorant forum member, mind telling us here whether ISO is one of the most widely used Media format out there or not.? Mind telling us how u ge ISO files (piracy)? Mind telling us, how mplayer plays ISO files without mounting
> 
> Oh, well....it doesn't, mplayer does something which in WMP the user has to do manually. Mount the ISO. Sorry, Windows Media Player cannot support a piracy format to play video like this.


 

playing iso is not necesarily playing pirated content .


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jul 6, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> how mplayer plays ISO files without mounting


one question: does winrar/winiso/isobuster etc. need to mount an iso file to view its contents??!!!

plz do not use the word "ignorant fellow member". doesn't sound nice from ur mouth!!  



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Windows Media Player cannot support a piracy format to play video like this.


i make iso images then vcds/dvds of the videos i capture from my handycam. this feature is utmost useful to me.. when am in windows i use VLC to read/play the same. now temme how is my video collection pirated???  jus' hafing eyecandy in media player doesn't make it better. i find media library of winamp more usable than in media player. but then its my personal opinion.

lets get on topic now. plz change the title to: "vista is a secure OS for home usage"

that'd be more appropriate as all the posts made here claim that its unfair to compare vista to *nix/clones as vista is not a server OS!!! if the title is changed to that then 80% of the posts will hafta be deleted!!!

***********************************************************************************



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> .......which in WMP the user has to do manually. Mount the ISO.


sorry i'm not that well versed wid vista's in built handling of iso files. in xp i either had to install the powertoy or some 3rd party utility like daemon tools or nero/roxio package to create a virtual drive and mount iso. i dunno if vista supports out of the box iso mounting. plz enlighten me.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Sorry, Windows Media Player cannot support a piracy format to play video like this.


haha.. sounds like official WMP FAQ and as if Windows Media Player is your product and you are the one deciding on its features!!!!


----------



## iMav (Jul 6, 2007)

hmmm ... looks like some members need to reminded about a small incident which wasn't a shock to the MAC fraternity and they said that we are secure as long as hackers dont train their eyes on other OSs and as far as my knowledge goes ... os x is based on bsd aint it :roll:


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 6, 2007)

infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> lets get on topic now. plz change the title to: "vista is a secure OS for home usage"
> 
> that'd be more appropriate as all the posts made here claim that its unfair to compare vista to *nix/clones as vista is not a server OS!!! if the title is changed to that then 80% of the posts will hafta be deleted!!!


Indeed.

If you leave the definition unbounded, then those within the bounds of your definition are fair game...hence my posts concerning OpenBSD.

But I do find it interesting that there has been so much controversy over such a hopeless topic.  Security is an np-complete problem (for the less mathematically inclined, that means "non-polynomial"...the premise is that to discover a solution takes near infinite effort, but it takes mere seconds to disprove a proposed solution), and as such there really isn't a "secure" OS anywhere.  It's all relative to the status of the crowd.

As for DRM, I really didn't want to tread on that subject because it, too, is a hopeless topic.  People have opinions, and opinions stink.  I've had quite a bit of fun giggling at the *emotionally-driven* crap that some people have posted ("Oh, it upsets me when someone says 'Your OS sucks <insert favorite OS> is the bestest!'"), but honestly I can only handle so much stupidity...opening the DRM can 'O worms was NOT my intent.

You see, people are exceptionally goofy critters...Logic does not drive action, logic simply determines WHAT action will take place.  The drive to act comes from emotion, or more accurately, your *belief* about the emotion.  (Consider this:  you're walking down the street and someone pushes you hard enough to knock you to the ground.  You'd be upset, right?  Now then, as you're getting up, a drunk driver smashes over the sidewalk and into the building right where you were just standing...hrmmm...seems a different scenario now, even though NOTHING HAS CHANGED about the event.  Your *belief* about the intent of the person who pushed you is the only thing that has changed.)  

When someone says "Linux sucks, Vista is more secure", my logic dictates that the individual who posted that is a moron and has no experience with the true power of open source.  But what *drives me to act* is my *belief:* a) my favored OS is under attack and b) by proxy *I* am under attack. (Just making a point, as I've stated *truth* that contradicted my viewpoint (i.e. Linux has it's share of security issues, etc...) because it's true, not because I believe it to be true.)  How many who've posted from page 13 to the last page on this thread can say likewise?  How many have posted sensible, thought-provoking truth *even if it weakened their stance*?  

If you can raise your hand to that, congrats...you're a mature individual.  

If you can't:  Get some facts, fuucktard, and drop the blind trust.  It'll bite you in the end.


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jul 6, 2007)

@iMav: dude, bsd is not a joke! it aint like this... today somebody says i'm tired of hacking xyz os, tom i'll hack into a bsd system and its done! 

making statements is easy but practically hacking into a bsd system is no child's play. of corz, its not impossible! nothing is! afterall its all man made.. if man can make it.. then he can break it too! its not god sent.

but hacking into a bsd system is not easy like hacking into any xyz OS!


----------



## iMav (Jul 6, 2007)

as i said earlier if some 1 has a problem with the claims of the source fight it with them coz BSD based OS by a some company that goes by the name of Apple Inc. (may be some small company who has no idea baout coding an OS) was hacked


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 6, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> hmmm ... looks like some members need to reminded about a small incident which wasn't a shock to the MAC fraternity and they said that we are secure as long as hackers dont train their eyes on other OSs and as far as my knowledge goes ... os x is based on bsd aint it :roll:


This arguement, like so many of your posts, is based on association.  Think about it...

Girls = (time)(money)
time = money
money^2 = evil  (money is the root of all evil)

Does this mean you can factor it all out and make the conclusion that girls = evil?  That's a faulty association.  Your argument, likewise, is a faulty association.  BSD (for starters, BSD is the code released from Berkeley...OpenBSD/NetBSD/FreeBSD/etc... are all derivative works.  Apple OSX is a derivative of FreeBSD (as far as my understanding goes...anyone have proof otherwise, please share).

Does this mean that your arguement holds that OpenBSD is crap because Apple OSX (a "distant relative" if you will), which has been broken in horrible ways to make it more friendly and functional, has security problems?

Check CERT (or any given vulnerability tracking database system, for that matter), and draw conclusions based on fact.  Then come back and speak intelligently, please.


----------



## kumarmohit (Jul 6, 2007)

rocket357 said:
			
		

> I have a car.  I'm not a mechanic.  I've put in the effort to *learn* how to accomplish routine tasks to ensure the safety and security of my car.
> 
> Likewise, if I were given the opportunity to use a bank that was more secure, I'd put forth the effort to *learn*.



You can and you have learnt becoz you have:
~ Quest
~ Attitude

and above all the time to learn, not everyone however so equipped. So not everyone can learn BSD.


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 6, 2007)

infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> making statements is easy but practically hacking into a bsd system is no child's play. of corz, *its not impossible!* nothing is! afterall its all man made.. if man can make it.. then he can break it too! its not god sent.



Ahh, sanity.  Thank you for posting, infra_red_dude...you enlighten us all with your *logical* analysis of the situation.



			
				kumarmohit said:
			
		

> You can and you have learnt becoz you have:
> ~ Quest
> ~ Attitude
> 
> and above all the time to learn, not everyone however so equipped. So not everyone can learn BSD.



Damn you, kumarmohit...you're good.  Ok, I agree that not all people are "equipped" to pick up varying topics...but I've accomplished virtually EVERYTHING I've put my mind to, regardless of difficulty (probably because I'm just as stubborn as I am driven to learn).

I hate admitting it, but you've got a valid point there.


----------



## iMav (Jul 6, 2007)

rocket357 said:
			
		

> This arguement, like so many of your posts, is based on association.  Think about it...
> 
> Girls = (time)(money)
> time = money
> ...


 who the hell said that some thing is crap 

ur the 1 who felt offended by the the title of the thread

from the way ur commenting ur the 1 who tried to imply tht vista is crap


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 6, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> who the hell said that some thing is crap
> 
> ur the 1 who felt offended by the the title of the thread



hrmmm...then what was the point of your "Mac got hacked" post?  Are you simply tossing out random tidbits to sound "in the know" or did you have an intelligent reason for posting?

I never said the title *offended* me.  I just know faulty statements when I see them, and anyone with an ounce of logic would see that and agree.  Vista is the most secure OS?  Riiiiiiiiight.  Amazing how security minded OS's were left out of the comparison (save Vista, that is)...


----------



## iMav (Jul 6, 2007)

ur the 1 who has problems with the title and claim bsd is the best bsd is the most secure trying to imply that it cant be hacked or has no vulnerability and all we are saying is tha every OS has its flaws so dont rant about the product ur using and call the other uselss ... and hence i had to remind u about ur BSD being as vulnerable as windows and experts also saying the same


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jul 6, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> ....imply that it cant be hacked or has no vulnerability


read his posts again. he's mentioned 2 bugfixes for BSD.
*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showpost.php?p=542780&postcount=261



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> .....and all we are saying is tha every OS has its flaws....


very correct!



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> ....and hence i had to remind u about ur *BSD being as vulnerable as windows * and experts also saying the same.


you are out of ur senses dude!!!! this is the most idiotic comment i've ever heard! err... make it the best joke i've ever heard!!


----------



## iMav (Jul 6, 2007)

^^ if u draw a distinction between an absolutely non-usable version of BSD with a version that can be used by people ur right


----------



## gxsaurav (Jul 6, 2007)

infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> you are out of ur senses dude!!!! this is the most idiotic comment i've ever heard! err... make it the best joke i've ever heard!!



iMav got a point here. You guys said BSD is very secure & hard to hack. Well, then I also wonder how come Apple Mac OS X which is using the BSD kernel got hacked so many times easily due to simple bugs in WiFi driver


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jul 6, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> if u draw a distinction between an *absolutely non-usable version of BSD* with a version that can be used by people ur right


get over the myth!! free/open bsd is NOT ABSOLUTELY NON-USABLE as u think! get ur facts right. come outta the world of windows! you think like that coz you've been "born and brought up" in the world of windows!!! ask someone who's started his computing life wid linux. he feels linux is easy for him.

according to u.. a "usable" version of bsd is MacOSX? even then do u think mac os x is less secure than windows???!!! if u think so by jus looking at the graph shown in the title page and reading the blog then i dunno what to say! do u haf any concrete source to prove it.. an unbiased test? it also says winxp is more secure than ubuntu 6.06 or sled 10. i really dunno what to say!

and regarding the driver what gx is talking about, it is not a part of kernel. a person wid even a small percentage of common sense will understand that!!! again, it is coded/audited by apple. hmmm.. btw, what is this bug about? i dunno. plz enlighten me.


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 6, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> iMav got a point here. You guys said BSD is very secure & hard to hack. Well, then I also wonder how come Apple Mac OS X which is using the BSD kernel got hacked so many times easily due to simple bugs in WiFi driver


First: Bug in the WiFi driver != kernel vulnerability.
Same with bug in ATI driver for Vista != kernel vulnerability.

Second: If Win2000Pro is vulnerable to an attack, does that mean Win2003 is vulnerable too?  They're based on the same source code, afterall!

Furthermore, Mac uses a horribly defaced BSD kernel.  Saying it's the same thing is like calling a horse and a pig the same thing.  Yeah, they both walk on 4 legs, but it's NOT the same animal.  The kernels used by virtually any "2nd generation" BSD system (for instance, OpenBSD, NetBSD, etc...) are not the same.  (If you consider them to be identical, then explain to me why FreeBSD/NetBSD are NOT vulnerable to the ipv6 overflow that OpenBSD was vulnerable to in March of this year).   

Windows Server 2003 and Windows XP are based on the same source code, but this doesn't mean they're exactly the same (Look at a system call table for proof...2003 extends the capabilities of XP's kernel and refactors a few other calls.  If this extending creates new vulnerabilities, you can't say XP is "just as vulnerable" as 2003.)



			
				infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> btw, what is this bug about? i dunno. plz enlighten me.


There's a wireless card available for Mac that has a driver vulnerability.  Once the system is *turned on* with the card active, the system is vulnerable to attack.  It's pretty serious, IMHO.  Also, considering that drivers typically run with full kernel - level privilege, it's easy to see why drivers are so commonly attacked (and intentionally malicious "drivers" are the basis for many rootkit designs)


----------



## gxsaurav (Jul 6, 2007)

> Furthermore, *Mac uses a horribly defaced BSD kernel*. Saying it's the same thing is like calling a horse and a pig the same thing.



Macboy : No, you are lying. Mac OS X uses the same kernel. How dare you call Apple bad


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 6, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Macboy : No, you are lying. Mac OS X uses the same kernel. How dare you call Apple bad


A simple challenge, then:

Download the source code for OpenBSD's kernel.  Download the source code for FreeBSD's kernel.  Diff the files and tell me they're the same.  If they aren't, then explain to me what "*The*" BSD kernel is, hrmm?



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Well, then I also wonder how come Apple Mac OS X which is using *the BSD kernel* got hacked so many times easily due to simple bugs in WiFi driver


This "the" BSD kernel.

Also, you might want to check out this:
*www.levenez.com/unix/


----------



## iMav (Jul 6, 2007)

a few mis-conceptions i never said bsd is more vulnerable than windows ... i said it is as vulnerable (may be not) but infra dude i tried installing my display card drivers on slax kill bill edition and if thats any thing that u call usable then u got to be kidding me


----------



## din (Jul 6, 2007)

WOW

First I begged all users not to post in this thread, stop the war etc. But now (after *rocket357 * came to participate in discussion), it is like going back to the old days

Am I dreaming ? Quality posts again ! Great.

Now we can see the level of knowledege of those who post 

iMav, gx, Zeeshan, I am taking back what I said, please continue posting in this thread, coz ...

Then we can see some Excellent replies which worth reading.


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 6, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> i said it is as vulnerable (may be not)


How much experience with BSD do you have (any flavor of BSD)?  How much of that is specifically OpenBSD?  Oh, none?  Jeez, you talk alot for someone with such little experience...(and don't BS me...if you can't figure out how to install drivers in Slackware, OpenBSD would slaughter you).

We seem to have strayed off topic...my original arguement was for OpenBSD, not *BSD in general.  So what if there's 1500 (random number I pulled off my head...don't take that literally!) different flavors of BSD...none of them do the same code auditing and have as strict of standards as the OpenBSD project.

In fact, we seem to have strayed off both ends...my arguement was Vista vs. OpenBSD.  Who cares about Mac/WinXP/Linux/etc...?  I came into this stating the title was incorrect because OpenBSD is more secure than Vista.


----------



## iMav (Jul 6, 2007)

oh say open bsd closed bsd which ever bsd ... installing anything on it is not simple alwys go into tht terminal ... if thts wat u call usable then sorry yaar doesnt fit into my definition


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 6, 2007)

din said:
			
		

> iMav, gx, Zeeshan, I am taking back what I said, please continue posting in this thread, coz ...
> 
> Then we can see some Excellent *replies* which worth reading.



hahahahahaha daaaaamn.



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> oh say open bsd closed bsd which ever bsd ... installing anything on it is not simple alwys go into tht terminal ... if thts wat u call usable then sorry yaar doesnt fit into my definition



Sigh...it's SECURE...

I said it makes a killer desktop...need I spell out how much knowledge is required to get to that point?  I didn't mention it, but OpenBSD is a complete pain in the ass to work with (default security is unbelievably tight).  Even after years of using OpenBSD, I still have to read man pages and google for stuff.  But you know what?

I'd trust an OpenBSD machine directly connected to the internet with no firewall before I'd trust ANY other operating system in the same situation.


----------



## kalpik (Jul 6, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> oh say open bsd closed bsd which ever bsd ... installing anything on it is not simple alwys go into tht terminal ... if thts wat u call usable then sorry yaar doesnt fit into my definition


Whatever, that DOES NOT make it less secure than Windows Vista.


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jul 6, 2007)

kalpik said:
			
		

> Whatever, that DOES NOT make it less secure than Windows Vista.


Agreed , that doesn't .

But going by the same notion , if you don't plugin any pen-drive in to your Vista , don't use DVD's etc then Vista(or for that matter any OS) is as secure 

this is just an example , i'm not contesting the Security of BSD coz i myself am planning to study where BSD originated


----------



## iMav (Jul 6, 2007)

technically there is nothing wrong with the title coz ... open bsd doesnt qualify as a desktop OS  to install anything go that terminal .... it may be secure but its less usable

@kalpik that was a reply to some discussion that was going on before ...


----------



## kalpik (Jul 6, 2007)

Again, the title says "Vista is still the most secure OS to date." Now am i blind or what? I cannot seem to find the word "desktop" in the title.


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 6, 2007)

kalpik said:
			
		

> Again, the title says "Vista is still the most secure OS to date." Now am i blind or what? I cannot seem to find the word "desktop" in the title.



Oddly enough, the main OS's being compared are not all "Desktop" OS's, either.  I mean, RHE = Desktop?  When did that happen?


----------



## iMav (Jul 6, 2007)

ah now u came to the article and i again request u to fight the claims with the author


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 6, 2007)

The Original Article's Title said:
			
		

> *Windows Vista - 6 Month Vulnerability Report*



Hrmmm...no mention of "most secure OS" here...must be a thinkdigit issue!


----------



## iMav (Jul 6, 2007)

rocket u seem to have missed the graph for some reason, it is a plot of vulnerabilties disclosed but not patched & patched ... and in that vista has the lowest and on that basis vista is more secure, some may say that vista is new and hence has very less vulnerabilities and some may say that in 5 years MS has been able to do a fairly decent job but unfortunately the later cannot happen coz most pll are anti_ms anyways


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 6, 2007)

Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> But going by the same notion , if you don't plugin any pen-drive in to your Vista , don't use DVD's etc then Vista(or for that matter any OS) is as secure


So if I install the ATI drivers (which have disclosed exploits...doh?) on my Vista system, I'll be ok as long as I don't use DVD's or pen-drives?



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> rocket u seem to have missed the graph for some reason, it is a plot of vulnerabilties disclosed but not patched & patched ... and in that vista has the lowest and on that basis vista is more secure, some may say that vista is new and hence has very less vulnerabilities and some may say that in 5 years MS has been able to do a fairly decent job


Hrmmm...was OpenBSD on the graph?

Oh, it wasn't?

Hrmmm...I wonder why...maybe the title should read "Vista is still the most secure OS to date when compared to OS's picked by Microsoft".  I'd like to reiterate the point that Ubuntu and Red Hat are precompiled bloat distros (actually, I'm a bit surprised at Red Hat's numbers, but ehh, it happens).  Give me a report on OpenBSD, PAX/RSBAC Gentoo, and Vista and we'll see which is "the most secure OS to date".



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> but unfortunately the later cannot happen coz most pll are anti_ms anyways



Give me a break...are you serious?  90 something percent of the people out there are M$ users and you think YOU have it rough because "most people are anti-M$"?  Why don't you try being a supporter of OpenBSD on a Windows fanboy forum!


----------



## mediator (Jul 7, 2007)

> Man , the reply wasn't even to your post , Rocket357 replied that BSD will support devices if hardware vendors release it's specifications to BSD team . and as most user-product hardware vendors don't take *NIX as serious business area so they won't support it initially(then OS drivers will be made by reverse engineering and the likes and then the hardware will be supported).


 This is a forum, not a private meeting to be discussing things and clearing concepts!!



> Yes , it does not play ISO files *coz* it's meant to play Media files and ISO files r specialized data files that contain media files , so u can mount an ISO file and en play it normally using WMP .


 I guess u forgot that an end-user isn't interested in reasons, and why MS doesn't provides drivers,antivirus,infection resistance,office etc!! Its sad u can't keep up with the enlightenment of ur fellow musketeer!



> just compare the UI of WMP to MPlayer and you'll know what i mean(or should i provide screenshots).


 And when we start talking about beryl u guys start crying! Please don't talk selectively or just talk straight to the topic of this thread!! Its all about security, not eye candy!!



> Going by your way , even i can say GNU Linux cannot play games , so do i have to bring this up each and every time in a thread ?


 U shud ask this to the other 2 musketeers of ur group who r trolling around, out of words and deviating it to desktops,popularity,eyecandy or wateva they know to whine about!!




> My Fellow ignorant forum member, mind telling us here whether ISO is one of the most widely used Media format out there or not.? Mind telling us how u ge ISO files (piracy)? Mind telling us, how mplayer plays ISO files without mounting


 Typical words of an MS-fanboy who questions popularity of DRM in INDIA and then on other talks about piracy to prove his pwned points!! Who talked about media format? Did u went to MS today that u lost the iota of brain cells u were having? Ofcors why shud I use a 3rd party mounting software, follow a set of steps to mount it and then watch an ISO DVD. Talk about practicality, this is INDIA and in many places including Delhi people rent DVDs and form ISOs so as to watch anytime they want and delete it after that. Even a noobie will luv to watch it as easily as mplayer lets u see it like many do in my area and around the globe!!

And yea I think we discussed the mounting thing. I still can't stop
 laughing on u where u showed ur ignorance and didn't even the basic working of an OS! So atleast don't show the level of ur ignorance to everyone now by talking of it again n again!!


----------



## iMav (Jul 7, 2007)

ya right and ur alliance is allowed to bring drm drm drm drm drm dmr drm  tum karo toh chamatkar hum karen toh balatkar


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 7, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> And when we start talking about beryl u guys start crying! Please don't talk selectively or just talk straight to the topic of this thread!! Its all about security, not eye candy!!



Oh wow, the fanboys know what Beryl is?  Sigh.

*www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5496461

*www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5277213

That second one is what I use when I want to actually get work done.  Too much eyecandy is distracting and slows the machine down.


----------



## mediator (Jul 7, 2007)

imav said:
			
		

> ya right and ur alliance is allowed to bring drm drm drm drm drm dmr drm  tum karo toh chamatkar hum karen toh balatkar


 Ur Jokes are still better than the entertaining ignorance of ur fellow musketeers!!

@rocket: Looks nice...may be u can give a tutorial in OSS section!!


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 7, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> Ur Jokes are still better than the entertaining ignorance of ur fellow musketeers!!
> 
> @rocket: Looks nice...may be u can give a tutorial on OSS section!!



Oh man, I'd love to!  I've written a few tutorials (mostly Linux installation tutorials), so it would be fun to get away from this nonsense for a bit to post some "reality" haha


----------



## din (Jul 7, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> @rocket: Looks nice...may be u can give a tutorial in OSS section!!



Great, I was about to post exactly the same thing. We can see all his posts are really nice. I am sure hes having a lot of yrs experience in this field and he has real knowledge.


----------



## mediator (Jul 7, 2007)

I agree!


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jul 7, 2007)

*Re: Vista is still the most secure diOS to date.*



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> a few mis-conceptions i never said bsd is more vulnerable than windows ...


and where did anybody say that u said so???



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> ...i said it is as vulnerable...


yeah and i'm still laughing at the same thing!! 



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> ...but infra dude i tried installing my display card drivers on slax kill bill edition and if thats any thing that u call usable then u got to be kidding me


it can imply only 2 things:
1) u use either the newer generation ati cards which has a hopeless driver from ati or u use via igp which is equally hopeless in driver support.
2) if u haf proper supported card + driver then you haf difficulty read the install/readme file for instructions on how to install.

i still can't understand why ppl are fighting over the word "desktop"  i can't see any such word in the first post!!!!

@rocket
thanks for the info! 



			
				Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> ...if you don't plugin any pen-drive in to your Vista , don't use DVD's etc then Vista(or for that matter any OS) is as secure


and you call this a usable system??!!!


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 7, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> And yea I think we discussed the mounting thing. I still can't stop laughing on u where u showed ur ignorance



Umm, must we get THAT specific here?  Or has the concept of virtual memory eluded some of us?

Hrmmm...my WinXP machine seems to have 1.7 GB of stuff in "RAM"...perhaps I should install another 1 GB so I don't "overflow"...

Guess I'd best do the same for my Win2k3 Server machine...and my OpenBSD box (errr...wait...that one usually only uses 30-50 MB of RAM...so I guess it's ok with 512 MB)...and my Gentoo Linux box (oh yeah, that one also only uses like 40-60 MB of RAM...guess it's ok with the 1 GB it has already)...and my FreeBSD box (oh wait...same thing...it usually uses 25-50 MB of RAM and it has 256 MB).

Looks like my Windows machines are the only ones that really *need* the virtual memory idea...I wonder why that is?  (And don't get me started on Vista's requirements!)  haha


----------



## goobimama (Jul 7, 2007)

Windows is secure? Since when?

I've just been infested by a stupid virus.


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 7, 2007)

goobimama said:
			
		

> Windows is secure? Since when?
> 
> I've just been infested by a stupid virus.


Sorry to hear that...was it Vista or XP, out of curiousity?  (If it's XP, then thanks for the info, but this thread is about *Vista* being "the most secure OS to date"!  If it's Vista, then I rest my case haha).



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> installing anything on it is not simple alwys go into tht terminal



Dear God, I can't believe I didn't see this the first time around.  Let me review a few installation routines:

Gentoo Linux:
emerge openoffice

OpenBSD:
pkg_add openoffice

FreeBSD:
pkg_add openoffice

The next thing that happens is quite funny...all of the packages that I need to make the program I'm installing work correctly are downloaded and installed automatically.  Badda-bing, badda-boom.  Package is ready for use.

If that's too complex for you, then you seriously need to sell your computer and never think about it ever again...


----------



## mediator (Jul 7, 2007)

rocket357 said:
			
		

> Umm, must we get THAT specific here?  Or has the concept of virtual memory eluded some of us?
> 
> Hrmmm...my WinXP machine seems to have 1.7 GB of stuff in "RAM"...perhaps I should install another 1 GB so I don't "overflow"...
> 
> ...


 U r wasting ur time and effort. Enlightenment tried to strike those guys a zillion times, but their fanboyic barrier was really strong!! 

First enlightenment ignored them, then it ridiculed them, then it fought them to conquer their brains and then their fanboyism won!! 

U can see how they still repeat things like 'mounting' one as though they have alzheimer's and forgotten of the enlightenment! Neways u may still give ur best shot, but I bet I wud be correct....Lets see who wins u or me!!


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jul 7, 2007)

well this is the problem wid most here in this forum! people simply fail to recognise the weak points of their fav. OS! every OS has its share of strong points and weak points. i request people to not to become a frog in the well! 

if u are using windows try out linux wid an open mind. if u are using linux do try out windows wid an open mind and yet request the same to mac users. if u do this wid a negative thot abt that OS then you'll fail to see that OS' strong points and ur fav. OS' weak points.


----------



## iMav (Jul 7, 2007)

ya well thats ok but just for a note, MAC has no positives  (gin ke ek do honge)


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jul 7, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> MAC has no positives


see now.. thats a negative way of looking things. why, isn't the interface cool!! 

hmmm.. i think ease of use is one of its strongest points! obviously not everywhere...


----------



## iMav (Jul 7, 2007)

ah yes i forgot about the design and UI its so cool


----------



## din (Jul 7, 2007)

infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> well this is the problem wid most here in this forum! people simply fail to recognise the weak points of their fav. OS! every OS has its share of strong points and weak points. i request people to not to become a frog in the well!



Exactly. 

In another words - The difference is the ice cubes in my refrigerator and the iceberg which hit Titanic 

@iMav

Don't you agree with infra_red_dude ? Why you are still trying to attack Mac for no reason ? 

Another thing I do not understand is (someone already mentioned this), why some are *BLINDLY* supporting some OS / Companies !! We can very well understand it if they are the employees / owner of the company. But I do not think thats the case ..


----------



## iMav (Jul 7, 2007)

well coz they unemployed salesman, im not attacking os x just my opinion and also shared by quite a few


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 7, 2007)

Personal attacks aside, it appears to me that infra_red_dude has had a revelation.  There's more maturity in that one post than in possibly the previous five pages of posts (mine included heh =)

Ok...here's what I see *wrong*with my favorite OS's:

Gentoo Linux (my absolute favorite): Building everything right takes a long time.  Nothing is more irritating than taking the time to compile a kernel (Gentoo is source-driven and doesn't have a binary kernel available, so you HAVE to compile it from source) and then realizing you forgot to enable one of your PCI cards...doh?

OpenBSD: default settings are so restricted that it takes longer to set everything up after installation than the installation itself.  Enabling one service typically requires you modify multiple config files.  This isn't a huge con, but OpenBSD uses a shell I'm not terribly comfortable with as it's default (and I hate running "non-standard" shells).  Also, one of my favorite IM plugins (gaim-encryption) isn't ported to OpenBSD, and what little effort I've put into making it work has...well...NOT worked.

FreeBSD: This is a tough one, since FreeBSD has packages (binary) and ports (source) available, so building the system from both source and precompiled packages is a breeze.  Also, FreeBSD has a port of pf (OpenBSD's firewall), which is a HUGE plus.  FreeBSD also has a vulnerability database built-in so you can see what security impact a package will have on your system...sigh.  I guess cons are that I haven't figured out how to get my M$ mouse's wheel working properly yet, and the FreeBSD structure and conky's portmonitoring capabilities aren't (as far as I can tell) compatible, meaning to get it working I have to write the code myself (not a problem, but I haven't done it yet).

Mac OSX: Hardware is expensive (which is why I don't own one and can't comment beyond that).

Windows XP/2003 Server (yes, I'm listing XP and Server 2003 as my favorites): The Microsoft family of OS's were NOT built with programmers in mind.  I've spent this summer looking into the DDK and WDK kits available and have liked what I've seen so far, which is a plus, but when Microsoft decides to move on, you either have to upgrade or you have to live with security issues.  Also, Microsoft has some seriously cool addons available...but they don't advertise it!  It's quite annoying to find a kit that does EXACTLY what you've been trying to find right on their site...but you have to know exactly WHERE to look.  I also have issues with Microsoft as a company and their FUD tactics/legal approach to nearly everything.  As I read somewhere once: "Microsoft innovates all the time...unfortunately it's in the legal department and not in the technical department."

Edit - What I mean by "The Microsoft family of OS's were NOT built with programmers in mind" is that you can build an application quickly and with relatively little effort, but if you want to write something purely from scratch your choices are more limited with Microsoft's products than, say, Linux development.  Also, unless you use Microsoft-sanctioned products, you lose functionality, which is never good.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jul 7, 2007)

rocket357 said:
			
		

> The next thing that happens is quite funny...all of the packages that I need to make the program I'm installing work correctly are downloaded and installed automatically.  Badda-bing, badda-boom.  Package is ready for use.



Good luck with offline package management or installation in case of no Internet availability.



> Edit - What I mean by "The Microsoft family of OS's were NOT built with programmers in mind" is that you can build an application quickly and with relatively little effort, but if you want to write something purely from scratch your choices are more limited with Microsoft's products than, say, Linux development.



Have a Look at VS 2003/2005 & Cross Platform compiler. Judging by your own experience with OpenBSD & FreeBSD it seems you youself are not happy with the current level of desktop functionality


----------



## iMav (Jul 7, 2007)

ah lelo isko os x mein sirf hardware dikha


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jul 7, 2007)

rocket357 said:
			
		

> Personal attacks aside, it appears to me that infra_red_dude has had a revelation.


hmmm... yeah. i've been using windows since version 3.0 and linux since initial kernel releases. i kno where windows lacks and linux can take over & where linux lacks and windows can take over. i kno it in the context of my usage. so its purely subjective. it maybe different for different people.

this is the reason why i suggested people to try out other OS'. unless you try them out u never kno whats in store for you. it may actually lead to more productivity than you think. when u are stuck wid an OS you are limited to its functionality and the way you perform tasks. when u try out new things (OS' in this context) you may actually realise that there are better ways of doing the same task! so haf an open mind for everything in life and do acknowledge the faults in you and your favourite entities!

an argument which says "my os is best!" is as bad as the one which says "your os is the worst!"

ps: in my case, the dept. where windows lacks is security (yes, including vista. don't flame me for this but its my personal experience!). so linux takes over here. for gaming linux is a loser.. so thats where windows takes over. this is jus one example i'm giving. i haf lots more where each OS lacks something.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jul 7, 2007)

Linux without internet is nothing. You do not get offline packages for Linux anywhere. The market panetration is very low due to which even if you go to the market to buy a CD of essential linux softwares, by the time you come back to home, you find those are discontinued versions 

This is where Windows rules.


----------



## iMav (Jul 7, 2007)

well infra ur statements bare stark resemblance to what mac boys used to say ... try first then come every 1 on this forum what happend when we got our hands on the os x and the truth was revealed which off course hurt the salesman ego, how evr coming to ur post the thing unix and windows both differentiate right from the core and if it didnt have any +ves it would have died even before it was born so yes i agree in linux u control everything but that doesnt make it the best OS as a lot of people claim only coz it is more secure and windows has drm drm drm drm


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 7, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Good luck with offline package management or installation in case of no Internet availability.



I don't know how ISP's are in India, but that's NEVER been a problem here =)



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Have a Look at VS 2003/2005 & Cross Platform compiler. Judging by your own experience with OpenBSD & FreeBSD it seems you youself are not happy with the current level of desktop functionality


VS 2005?  Are you kidding?  It's the very pinacle of "dumbed down for artists and wannabe fanboys".  If I want to run a fat bloated IDE that makes my slow Windows install run EVEN slower, then I'd run Eclipse...at least with Eclipse I can program in *more* languages.

As for my experiences with OpenBSD/FreeBSD...it's true it's more difficult to set those machines up initially, but it's also been my experience that I can go 2+ years without major problems requiring a reinstall.  Hrmmm...guess if it's less efficient once every few years, then Windows MUST be the clear winner?  A prime example is my Gentoo machine at work.  I installed it around 5 months ago, and I have yet to reboot it since the initial install.  Still eats my WinXP box alive in terms of performance, and still uses less than 100 MB of RAM on average...my XP box, with repeated required reboots, still uses more RAM, requires more maintenance, and exhibits more interface lag even though my XP box is a dual core P4 with a GB of DDR2, and my Linux box is a 1.8 Celeron with 512 MB DDR1.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Linux without internet is nothing. You do not get offline packages for Linux anywhere. The market panetration is very low due to which even if you go to the market to buy a CD of essential linux softwares, by the time you come back to home, you find those are discontinued versions
> 
> This is where Windows rules.


If you pay for Linux software, you're an idiot or you're doing it for support...either way it shows lack of knowledge on your part.  When is everyone going to wake up and realize that human beings are far more capable in terms of learning than OS's are?  If you have to have stuff handed to you on a plate by your OS, you're a lazy bum IMNSHO.  Get a grip and put your brain in gear!


----------



## gxsaurav (Jul 7, 2007)

rocket357 said:
			
		

> I don't know how ISP's are in India, but that's NEVER been a problem here =)


Keeping this in mind, do not talk about india's market & users when yiu have the users of your country in your mind.



> VS 2005?  Are you kidding?  It's the very pinacle of "dumbed down for artists and wannabe fanboys".  If I want to run a fat bloated IDE that makes my slow Windows install run EVEN slower, then I'd run Eclipse...at least with Eclipse I can program in *more* languages.


Lolz....someone really has never worked on VS 2005 



> it's also been my experience that I can go 2+ years without major problems requiring a reinstall.


:Yawn", yeah my Vista installation is also running fine from last 8 months....how the hell did this happened then. Oh! did i mentioned that setting up vista is a child's play. I installed it, & just used the settings of my XP Partition & software. Done.



> A prime example is my Gentoo machine at work.  I installed it around 5 months ago, and I have yet to reboot it since the initial install.  Still eats my WinXP box alive in terms of performance, and still uses less than 100 MB of RAM on average...my XP box, with repeated required reboots, still uses more RAM, requires more maintenance, and exhibits more interface lag even though my XP box is a dual core P4 with a GB of DDR2, and my Linux box is a 1.8 Celeron with 512 MB DDR1.


Can't talk about reboot thing cos I close my computer when I go to sleep in night.

Gentoo eats less then 100 MB RAM, yeah....hey how many featues it provides when it is using only 100 MB RAM? 

Hey, gentoo isn't BSD, why r u bringing it to this discussion.



> If you pay for Linux software, you're an idiot or you're doing it for support



I don't have ultra fast internet connection here. How do i get software? Let me a know an eaiser way.



> ...either way it shows lack of knowledge on your part.  When is everyone going to wake up and realize that human beings are far more capable in terms of learning than OS's are?  If you have to have stuff handed to you on a plate by your OS, you're a lazy bum IMNSHO.  Get a grip and put your brain in gear!


Do I hear frustration & personal comments 

Fellow members I give u Prakash version 2.0 = Rocket357


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 7, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Keeping this in mind, do not talk about india's market & users when yiu have the users of your country in your mind.
> 
> Lolz....someone really has never worked on VS 2005
> 
> ...


I can't comment as to Prakash 2.0, but I can say that if Prakash likes doing things himself, then ahh well, he must be a good guy.

Gentoo with less than 100 MB of RAM gives me a full menu-driven desktop.  When was the last time that occurred on Windows?

Sorry, let me drop Gentoo from the discussion...my FreeBSD server at home has been running non-stop for 4 months without a single hiccup.  It's available 100% of the time =)

As for VS 2005, I've used it since I got a free copy from the academic alliance (around a year or so ago).  I don't have a massive computer system, to be honest...I have an amd64 3000+ with 1 GB dual channel DDR1 with an AGP GeForce 6600 GT.  It's not a *bad* machine, but it's certainly not top of the line.  WinXP is slow...Vista is even slower...and VS 2005 makes them both crawl.   Edit - Vista gave me a score of 2.8 out of (correct me if I'm wrong) 5.0 on "Vista experience" or whatever.

If your hardware can keep up with Vista, then I guarantee you'd see performance gains by installing Gentoo or Free/OpenBSD.  If you still deny it, you've never experienced BSD or real Linux, and everything you've said to this point is null and void by virtue of talking out of your ass.

And as a side note, I'd like to mention that I have the native nvidia drivers running on that GeForce 6600 GT, and I can push insane fps for virtually anything I want to do (3D modelling, gaming (yeah, it exists on Linux, but it's mostly first person shooter style games), etc...).

Frustration: yes.  I'm quite surprised that this thread hasn't closed for sufficient evidence to the contrary of the title.

Personal comments: perhaps =)  Seems your M$-driven blog is crammed full of ideas on how to improve Windows.  But gx!  How could your perfect OS need *GASP* _improvement_!  Nice touch adding in a shameless plug for your fellow fanboys, by the way...that was quite nice of you.


----------



## mridul_blaze (Jul 7, 2007)

wat sayin vista most secure one. forget it. who would one pay 15k for that security?


----------



## praka123 (Jul 7, 2007)

Why?Gentoo bsd is also available,right?
*www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/bsd/fbsd/
btwn Why do @gx u got frustrated and pull prakash prakash everywhere?Isnt that u got the answers for all your M$ fanboyism.

I hope let the thread title be  edited as [Idea]Vista/window$ still secure if run with a BSD/Linux system as a firewall(honeypot).this is what many companies pressured to run windows does i think 
*www.pcquest.com/content/linux/2004/104050806.asp


----------



## iMav (Jul 7, 2007)

aa gayega apne links k saath drm drm drm drm drm .... yeh prakash aur arya sirf net se links laate rehte hain


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 7, 2007)

rocket357 said:
			
		

> either way it shows lack of knowledge on your part.  When is everyone going to wake up and realize that human beings are far more capable in terms of learning than OS's are?  If you have to have stuff handed to you on a plate by your OS, you're a lazy bum IMNSHO.  Get a grip and put your brain in gear!


Hrmmm...to further clarify, I should state that with Windows, you're restricted to what's given to you by M$.  Sure, they can open up an API for VS 2005 "plug-in" development and all, but you're still using *their* software.

With open source I'm not restricted to one company's concept of "what's right for me".

Also, I'm not attempting to say that using OpenBSD/FreeBSD/Gentoo/whatever is *easier* than using Vista.  I'm saying that I have more control over what my machine is doing.  Don't want an eye candy desktop that's a complete waste of resources?  Fine...I'll install XFCE or Fluxbox.  Oh wait, but I best install an eye candy desktop so I can compare to Vista, right?  Hrmmm...Beryl?  Compiz?  KDE/Gnome with tweaks?  Enlightenment?  What if I don't want to run a desktop?  Oh, that's right...no one is forcing me to use one!

And as for security, I can *modify* my systems to whatever level of security *I* deem necessary.  Oh, you can't recompile with buffer overflow protection?  Sorry to hear that...guess you're running Vista Ultimate, or you're not benefiting from buffer overflow protection.  I get that protection from Linux OR BSD for no money...it just costs a bit of time to get it set up right.



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> Why?Gentoo bsd is also available,right?
> *www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/bsd/fbsd/
> btwn Why do @gx u got frustrated and pull prakash prakash everywhere?Isnt that u got the answers for all your M$ fanboyism.


The Gentoo-FreeBSD alliance is not a *mix* of the OS's...it's an enhancement to get the best of both worlds from each OS.  

Basically (and in my opinion), the "best of both worlds" scenario occurs when using BSD (OpenBSD or FreeBSD, doesn't matter).  I can run Linux binaries without modification on those BSD systems, and that means I can run Crossover Office, WineX, Cedega, etc...so I can run Windows apps on there, too.  There's quite a bit of effort going into this area recently (as far as I can tell) because not all Unix systems use the same binary format.

Edit - I stand corrected!  The Gentoo-FreeBSD project is aiming at building a FreeBSD system with Gentoo's userland capabilities.  Damn, that sounds awesome...thanks for pointing that out, Praka123.  So this hybrid system will benefit from Gentoo's powerful tools and FreeBSD's kernel (better memory management, better security...wow).


----------



## gxsaurav (Jul 7, 2007)

rocket357 said:
			
		

> Gentoo with less than 100 MB of RAM gives me a full menu-driven desktop.  When was the last time that occurred on Windows?



Hmm....hard to find out. Windows Classic is the most minimalistic form of Window Manager on Windows & it still provides much more features then that 100 MB installation of gentoo. Oh & it does eats more RAM due to all those features like instant search, Windows Preview. Tell me rocket & show some screenshot, R U running Flubox or XFCE?



> I don't have a massive computer system, to be honest...I have an amd64 3000+ with 1 GB dual channel DDR1 with an AGP GeForce 6600 GT.  It's not a *bad* machine, but it's certainly not top of the line.  WinXP is slow...Vista is even slower...and VS 2005 makes them both crawl.



This makes me wonder. You were ready to compile the gentoo packages from sourcem, but you did not tried to find out why your Windows installation is slow or whether you have the latest drivers installed or not. Oh well.....there are 10000000 of users in this forum using hardware config similar to the one u mentioned & I have not seen many of them saying that there installation of Vista or XP is slow.

I am also running a computer far older then yours. Pentium 4 3.06 GHz with 1.5 GB RAM & GeForce FX 5900XT. Guess what, Vista runs faster then XP SP2 here. I wonder how did this happened, oh well...could be just that I know how to use Windows & customise it for my needs. I don't know how to do this in Linux, but I know it can be customised. You don't know how to do this in Windows & you don't even know how much it can be customised.


> If your hardware can keep up with Vista, then I guarantee you'd see performance gains by installing Gentoo or Free/OpenBSD.  If you still deny it, you've never experienced BSD or real Linux, and everything you've said to this point is null and void by *virtue of talking out of your ass.*



Personal comments from fanboys started, like always.



> Personal comments: perhaps =)  Seems your M$-driven blog is crammed full of ideas on how to improve Windows.  But gx!  How could your perfect OS need *GASP* _improvement_!  Nice touch adding in a shameless plug for your fellow fanboys, by the way...that was quite nice of you.



Hmm....I can do nothing to prevent you from assuming false things on your own. Never I have mentioned that Vista is prefect. Oh man....i really can't do anything if you read with closed eyes



> Hrmmm...to further clarify,* I should state that with Windows, you're restricted to what's given to you by M$.* Sure, they can open up an API for VS 2005 "plug-in" development and all, but you're still using *their* software.



 This line here proved that you are a biased fanboy. Lolz....seriously, have u been living in a dreamworld, or have u never seen the level of 3rd party support Windows enjoys. You can make plugins for VS 2005 in your beloved Eclipse IDE too.



> With open source I'm not restricted to one company's concept of "what's right for me".



Did Microsoft stopped u from using a 3rd party application you wanted to use in Windows?



> I'm saying that I have more control over what my machine is doing. Don't want an eye candy desktop that's a complete waste of resources? Fine...I'll install XFCE or Fluxbox. Oh wait, but I best install an eye candy desktop so I can compare to Vista, right? Hrmmm...Beryl? Compiz? KDE/Gnome with tweaks? Enlightenment? What if I don't want to run a desktop? Oh, that's right...no one is forcing me to use one!



Welcome to Google search for finding "How to do <enter question here> in Windows"

Don't want Eye-Candy, fine, Windows Classic which still provides more features then XFCE

Eye Candy = Aero, already there

Tweaks, ya sure. TweakVI, registry & what not.

I think you never tried to learn how to use Windows.



			
				rocket357 said:
			
		

> Oh, you can't recompile with buffer overflow protection?  Sorry to hear that...guess you're running Vista Ultimate, or you're not benefiting from buffer overflow protection.  I get that protection from Linux OR BSD for no money...*it just costs a bit of time to get it set up right.*


*

*Nah, I will just run Windows Update to get the available patch. Done.


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 7, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Hmm....hard to find out. Windows Classic is the most minimalistic form of Window Manager on Windows & it still provides much more features then that 100 MB installation of gentoo. Oh & it does eats more RAM due to all those features like instant search, Windows Preview. Tell me rocket & show some screenshot, R U running Flubox or XFCE?


What 100 MB installation of Gentoo are you referring to?  Oh, the one you DON'T have?  Nice...by the way, I HAVE posted screenshot links...read your opponent's posts before replying, please...it enhances the entire sanity of the thread.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> This makes me wonder. You were ready to compile the gentoo packages from sourcem, but you did not tried to find out why your Windows installation is slow or whether you have the latest drivers installed or not. Oh well.....there are 10000000 of users in this forum using hardware config similar to the one u mentioned & I have not seen many of them saying that there installation of Vista or XP is slow.


Slow *compared* to Gentoo...



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> I am also running a computer far older then yours. Pentium 4 3.06 GHz with 1.5 GB RAM & GeForce FX 5900XT. Guess what, Vista runs faster then XP SP2 here. I wonder how did this happened, oh well...could be just that I know how to use Windows & customise it for my needs. I don't know how to do this in Linux, but I know it can be customised. You don't know how to do this in Windows & you don't even know how much it can be customised.


Ahh yes, Start->Run->msconfig.exe->ForceConservativeSwapUsage=1

(Forgive me if I haven't listed that verbatim...it's been a bit since I've messed with it).

Why do I have to specify to Windows to not use swap until it's necessary?  Isn't that a bit of a waste?



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Hmm....I can do nothing to prevent you from assuming false things on your own. Never I have mentioned that Vista is prefect. Oh man....i really can't do anything if you read with closed eyes


I've posted numerous facts concerning the shortcomings of BSD/Linux.  You have yet to say a negative word about Vista.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> This line here proved that you are a biased fanboy. Lolz....seriously, have u been living in a dreamworld, or have u never seen the level of 3rd party support Windows enjoys. You can make plugins for VS 2005 in your beloved Eclipse IDE too.


Sigh...I said "if I wanted to run..."...not "I run Eclipse".  Personally, I prefer development using the lightest system possible.  Perhaps that's why I'm not a big fan of VS2005.  I've done my fair share of development with VS2005, and it appears to me to be a slower version of stuff I could accomplish with a text editor (read that: NOT notepad or wordpad...a REAL text editor).



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Did Microsoft stopped u from using a 3rd party application you wanted to use in Windows?


Hrmmm...and to what end?  Pay for this, pay for that?  I have a 100% free system (free as in no money involved) that suits me better than Windows.  That's all that needs to be said.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Welcome to Google search for finding "How to do <enter question here> in Windows"


Oh, you mean there's such a thing as a *search engine*?  Perhaps the same one I've already posted about?  Wow!  Thanks for the tip!



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Don't want Eye-Candy, fine, Windows Classic which still provides more features then XFCE


Have you really pushed XFCE?  What about Fluxbox?  Just curious.



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Eye Candy = Aero, already there


You call THAT eye candy?  It's a joke compared to Beryl!



			
				gx_saurav said:
			
		

> I think you never tried to learn how to use Windows.


You have a valid point here...but I think you've never tried to learn Linux, and that would be as valid a point as any.  (Please spare me your Ubuntu/Fedora/Mepis/PCLinuxOS horror stories!)


----------



## shantanu (Jul 7, 2007)

rocket357 said:
			
		

> Umm, must we get THAT specific here? Or has the concept of virtual memory eluded some of us?
> 
> Hrmmm...my WinXP machine seems to have 1.7 GB of stuff in "RAM"...perhaps I should install another 1 GB so I don't "overflow"...
> 
> ...


 
well you know a lot about BSD and other open stuff.. well first try and learn about Windows Vista Memory managment and then you should write about overflow.. try using Vista with 512 ram, then also it will show you all used up and with 4gb too.. well you need to understand the concept behind that.. its just for increasing performance, if you run any program then VISTA will automatically give the RAM to that program.. it wont say memory shortage...

its nothing personal but you sound like a OVERSMART guy, who keeps on talking RUBISH... just hold it !! Windows is very secore for me.. both XP and Vista.. 

i am not saying that OSS are not secure but Windows is also as secure as MAC or LINUX...


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 7, 2007)

shantanu said:
			
		

> well you know a lot about BSD and other open stuff.. well first try and learn about Windows Vista Memory managment and then you should write about overflow.. try using Vista with 512 ram, then also it will show you all used up and with 4gb too.. well you need to understand the concept behind that.. its just for increasing performance, if you run any program then VISTA will automatically give the RAM to that program.. it wont say memory shortage...


The overflow comment was obviously a joke.  Sorry if it came across wrong...I wasn't serious about that!  As for Vista memory management, please explain to me how it's a performance GAIN if I use a hard disk that is *slower* than my main memory before the main memory is used up?  No, you've missed the point.  Virtual memory hails back to the day of memory being expensive and in small capacity.  Virtual memory isn't for performance, it's to increase the available memory the system "sees" so you can run more stuff than you have RAM for.  This comes at a performance *hit*, not *gain*.



			
				shantanu said:
			
		

> its nothing personal but you sound like a OVERSMART guy, who keeps on talking RUBISH... just hold it !! Windows is very secore for me.. both XP and Vista..


No offense taken...we're all mature adults here, right?  I dont' take offense to being called "Oversmart" (if such a thing exists?), but rubbish?  I've posted numerous times concerning the shortcomings of MANY operating systems...I realize that even my beloved OpenBSD suffers vulnerabilities and bugs.  Developers are human beings, and as such mistakes will be made.  How have my posts exhibited any other viewpoint?  (Not taking offense here, but I am questioning how my posts are rubbish).

Edit - DAMN, Shantanu!  That's a nice machine you have listed in your signature!



			
				rocket357 said:
			
		

> A trolling I will go, a trolling I will go...heh



Just for reference, this was posted by me quite a few pages ago...


----------



## shantanu (Jul 7, 2007)

rocket357 said:
			
		

> As for Vista memory management, please explain to me how it's a performance GAIN if I use a hard disk that is *slower* than my main memory before the main memory is used up? No, you've missed the point. Virtual memory hails back to the day of memory being expensive and in small capacity. Virtual memory isn't for performance, it's to increase the available memory the system "sees" so you can run more stuff than you have RAM for. This comes at a performance *hit*, not *gain*.



First of all i am talking about the MEMORY ( not PF) so memory is the RAM i am talking about.. so when all your RAM is Dynamically allocated by the system, it works as BOOSTED RAM (means when a Program wants memory , Vista provides the boosted DYNAMIC allocation to it, so that the program runs Smoothly.. the same applies in Gaming concept.. 

now as i wrote you must be having a great knowledge about OPENBSD and you might be pointing out bugs etc. it hardly makes a point for me.. the only thing i am concerned about is VISTA.. coz its not that BAD as you claim it to be, by pointing out bugs that even dont exist.. by saying it to be not secure while it is as secure or even more secure than ANY OS right now in the show...

well rubbish i meant about the posts related to offending other FORUM members supporting VISTA.. coz baseless comments on VISTA can't down the show for it... 

try using Wiki links or Microsoft KB for more information on VISTA MEMORY MANAGEMENT... 

and BTW PF is used when system needs more RAM then available to system, dont you think that Linux also has a SWAP partition , in windows we just have a file we dont need to carry a whole partition... (well i dont have enough knowledge about LINUX or OSS)(i might be worng in SWAP thing in LINUX) but this is what i think....


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 7, 2007)

shantanu said:
			
		

> now as i wrote you must be having a great knowledge about OPENBSD and you might be pointing out bugs etc. it hardly makes a point for me.. *the only thing i am concerned about is VISTA*.. coz its not that BAD as you claim it to be, by pointing out bugs that even dont exist.. by saying it to be not secure while it is as secure or even more secure than ANY OS right now in the show...


What bug did I point out that didn't exist?

And the highlighted section of the above quote makes this trolling possible =)

Vista has had 10-12 high severity bugs fixed in the past 6 months.  If my math is correct, that's roughly 1-2 every month (rounding off in Vista's favor, of course).  OpenBSD has had 2 high severity bugs in 10 YEARS.

How is Vista more secure, again?  I must've missed that post?

And guys, seriously...I don't care what you think of Vista, or OpenBSD, or Linux, or Mac, or whatever...I'm just bored and trying to get a rise out of you (which I've done with relatively great effect).  The exception, I'd have to say, is Shantanu, who's been calm during this nonsense...heh.

Sigh...I have homework to do, so I'll leave it all at this.  Enjoy Vista!  And seriously, I hope I haven't offended anyone.  I just like seeing Windows fanatics get all bent out of shape over anything that contradicts Microsoft...heh.  I'd do the same on BSD forums, but those crazy bastards would probably hunt me down hahaha.

Edit - And gx, serious man, VS2005 isn't half bad...I'm installing it now on a virtualized WinXP install as I'm typing this hahaha


----------



## gxsaurav (Jul 7, 2007)

rocket357 said:
			
		

> What 100 MB installation of Gentoo are you referring to?  Oh, the one you DON'T have?  Nice...by the way, I HAVE posted screenshot links...read your opponent's posts before replying, please...it enhances the entire sanity of the thread.



Yup, I don't have that 100 MB RAM consuming Gentoo installation, which also provides no features.



> Ahh yes, Start->Run->msconfig.exe->ForceConservativeSwapUsage=1
> 
> Why do I have to specify to Windows to not use swap until it's necessary?  Isn't that a bit of a waste?



Now, I am sure you don't know anything about how vista works . Vista caches things as u run. If you need RAM it gives it back to the application demanding RAM. Tell us a more efficient way plz.


> Hrmmm...and to what end?  Pay for this, pay for that?  I have a 100% free system (free as in no money involved) that suits me better than Windows.  That's all that needs to be said.



You want free stuff + Time to make it work. We want paid stuff + no time to get it to work. We just like to start using it from day 1. Hey, did u ever tried looking at the plethora of free apps available for WIndows out there.



> You have a valid point here...but I think you've never tried to learn Linux, and that would be as valid a point as any.  (Please spare me your Ubuntu/Fedora/Mepis/PCLinuxOS horror stories!)



Nope, sorry. I don't have enough time to learn to use an OS. I just open my PC, work on whatever I need & when done, I close it.

The more user friendly an OS is which allows to tinker with the OS, the less secure it is.


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 7, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Yup, I don't have that 100 MB RAM consuming Gentoo installation, which also provides no features.
> 
> Now, I am sure you don't know anything about how vista works . Vista caches things as u run. If you need RAM it gives it back to the application demanding RAM. Tell us a more efficient way plz.
> 
> ...


Hrmmmm...well, I was going to let the trolling go, but you seem to be willing and able to argue some more?  I accept the challenge...heh.

I think the above highlights speak for themselves, but I'll elaborate because well, I'm intrigued by these comments...You gripe at me for not using/learning Windows, and yet you state in black and white you don't have time to learn another OS?  Face it...this argument is a simple matter of what OS matches our lifestyles/trends/etc...also, the other highlight kinda points out the same thought.  You're a Windows fanatic because Windows fits your needs.  I'm an open source fanatic because BSD/Linux fit my needs.  What more needs to be said?

As for Vista caching...where does the cache reside?  Hard drive?  Sounds like PageFile/Virtual Memory!  RAM?  Sounds like normal RAM operation, only with more crap to keep track of...

And please spare me the security through obscurity defense of Windows.  Just because I'm allowed to view/edit/configure the source code does not mean my OS of choice is less secure.  I can get the source code for OpenBSD...does that mean OpenBSD should've had more than 2 high severity bugs in the past decade?  Oh, I guess OpenBSD goes against the grain, then.

Edit - man gx, I hate your posts...I always seem to find more to respond to each time I read them.  Ok, there's a plethora (nice choice of words, by the way) of free apps for Windows.  How many of those apps would you guess originated in the OSS world?  I can think of quite a few (though admittedly I don't know much about non-OSS Windows apps because I don't really track that stuff).


----------



## gxsaurav (Jul 7, 2007)

rocket357 said:
			
		

> Hrmmmm...well, I was going to let the trolling go, but you seem to be willing and able to argue some more?  I accept the challenge...heh.



Nah, if u don't fight, even I won't.



> I think the above highlights speak for themselves, but I'll elaborate because well, I'm intrigued by these comments...You gripe at me for not using/learning Windows, and yet you state in black and white you don't have time to learn another OS?  Face it...this argument is a simple matter of what OS matches our lifestyles/trends/etc...also, the other highlight kinda points out the same thought.  You're a Windows fanatic because Windows fits your needs.  I'm an open source fanatic because BSD/Linux fit my needs.  What more needs to be said?



yes, eggjactly. Use whatever you want, just don't rant about your product being the best cos it is not without its flaws.

You call Vista less secure compared to OpenBSD. I call OpenBSD less user friendly compared to Vista.



> As for Vista caching...where does the cache reside?  Hard drive?  Sounds like PageFile/Virtual Memory!  RAM?  Sounds like normal RAM operation, only with more crap to keep track of...



I will make it simple for you. When u open notepad (example) it starts & loads all the helper dlls as notepad needs. Now when you close it, it closes, but the DLL & Exe are still in RAM, & they stay there till some other app asks for RAM.



> And please spare me the security through obscurity defense of Windows.  Just because I'm allowed to view/edit/configure the source code does not mean my OS of choice is less secure.



Yup, just cos I m not allowed to see the source code of my OS,  doesn't mean it is not secure or can't be trusted.



> I can get the source code for OpenBSD...does that mean OpenBSD should've had more than 2 high severity bugs in the past decade?  Oh, I guess OpenBSD goes against the grain, then.



Do one thing, go to Linux vendors like Red hat & tell them to do same auditing for Linux kernel.


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 7, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Nah, if u don't fight, even I won't.
> 
> yes, eggjactly. Use whatever you want, just don't rant about your product being the best cos it is not without its flaws.
> 
> ...


Excellent...we have achieved some degree of understanding!  The thread title, however, makes no claims as to usability =)

As for caching...I obviously misunderstood you.  Thanks for pointing out the intent of your previous post.  I understand that Windows caches dlls and the like, it's done that as far back as I can recall.  Linux and BSD, however, do the same, only they tend to focus more on filesystem caching...

As for pagefile/virtual memory/swap (to answer a previous post), Linux uses a swap partition.  To me (personal opinion) it makes more sense to keep "scratch" data separate from "real" data.  Also, Linux tends to use swap as a "last resort".  I've seen my Linux system pushing 980+MB of RAM (big compile while having dozens of tabs open in firefox and listening to music) with only a few KB of swap usage.  It *seems* faster to me, and it makes more sense *to me*.  

Should Red Hat do kernel audits?  Yes.  Should all OS's do code audits?  Yes.  The fact stands alone.

Lastly, I ranted about OpenBSD being more secure...I didn't imply in any way that it's more user friendly (because honestly...it's a nightmare if you're new to it, and it *can* be a pain if you've experience with it).  OpenBSD's security record speaks for itself.  I'm sure when Vista has been out longer (though it's six month record really isn't bad at all!), then we can all draw more conclusions on it.

Oh, and thanks for taking the time to debate with me...it's been fun.

Edit - speaking of usability/security, I'd like to point out that it's all about choice.  If you choose to use Vista, no one can tell *you* otherwise.  How one person uses their computer is a highly personal thing, and it's not something that anyone outside of the user can dictate.


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jul 7, 2007)

mediator said:
			
		

> This is a forum, not a private meeting to be discussing things and clearing concepts!!


 Now when i give you an apt reply , you start whining .



			
				infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> and you call this a usable system??!!!


 That's whay my point was , if u keep ur system disconnected frm everything then it'll be barely usable .

similarly , Visa(and XP) is supported my almost all software producers , can this be said for BSD ?

BSD is an excellet server os but it's nothing on a desktop .

Heck even OS software users are calling their very own popular distros as Bloat(Ubuntu anyone) . this shows that most so-called linux users(rocket357 specially) are here just to show off that they use linux and not everyone uses it , and now wth the growing popularity of Ubuntu , they are disowning it by calling it bloat ? What kinda logic is this ?



			
				infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> well this is the problem wid most here in this forum! people simply fail to recognise the weak points of their fav. OS! every OS has its share of strong points and weak points. i request people to not to become a frog in the well!


 Right said . 

but tell this to Rocket357 and Praka who are admant on provind that Vista is Crap and BSD(Linux is bloat as they say) is the best .

I have Win XP , Ubuntu , Gentoo , Solaris and Mac installe on my system and i use each for the purpose i think it suits best


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 7, 2007)

Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> this shows that most so-called linux users(rocket357 specially) are here just to show off that they use linux and not everyone uses it , and now wth the growing popularity of Ubuntu , they are disowning it by calling it bloat ? What kinda logic is this ?


So if someone uses Windows 98 and makes the claim that their Windows install is as secure as your Vista install, you should accept it as truth?  Likewise, Ubuntu and Red Hat, while obviously Linux, are not the same as Hardened Gentoo.  I compile all of my stuff from source because a) most OS vendors compile for "typical home users" (which we've established I'm not one of), and b) I know what I'm doing when it comes to installing software from source/using a hardened toolchain.  The logic is that I'm not happy with "typical home user" builds...



			
				Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> but tell this to Rocket357 and Praka who are admant on provind that Vista is Crap and BSD(Linux is bloat as they say) is the best .


No, I'm hell bent on showing that the title of this thread is incorrect.  Also, if you read back through my posts, I've stated in numerous places that even OpenBSD has flaws.  I've made no claim as to the "perfection" of any OS.  I've made no attempt to claim one is best *in ALL situations*.  Just for your knowledge, I have two Gentoo machines, one OpenBSD machine, one FreeBSD machine, one Slackware Linux machine, two Windows XP machines, one Windows Server 2003 machine, and one IpCop proxy machine...they all have a purpose.
Edit - IpCop is based on Slackware, so I guess if we need to get technical, I have TWO Slackware machines...



			
				Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> I have Win XP , Ubuntu , Gentoo , Solaris and Mac installe on my system and i use each for the purpose i think it suits best


ummm, are you talking about a single system?  (obviously not)  I mean, yeah Solaris runs on x86 (I have a virtualized install of Solaris 10 myself), and obviously Gentoo, Ubuntu, and Win XP do, but doesn't Mac require "Mac certified" hardware to install OSX?  Not poking fun, I'm just asking for clarification.  Also, just out of curiousity, what bootloader are you using for Gentoo?


----------



## gxsaurav (Jul 7, 2007)

rocket357 said:
			
		

> ummm, are you talking about a single system?  (obviously not)  I mean, yeah Solaris runs on x86 (I have a virtualized install of Solaris 10 myself), and obviously Gentoo, Ubuntu, and Win XP do, but doesn't Mac require "Mac certified" hardware to install OSX?  Not poking fun, I'm just asking for clarification.  Also, just out of curiousity, what bootloader are you using for Gentoo?



Yup, that is one pentium 4 system running Linux, Windows & Mac


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jul 7, 2007)

he's installed mac on his x86 system (thats a hackintosh!). fyi gx, there are numerous dvd distros available which which will give you almost everything out of the box!

imav, i told you to test each and every os wid a positive thot. not jus for finding flaws in it!

zeeshan: yes, the topic is about which os is the most secure and not which os is most usable out of the box! for heaven's sake read the thread title again.. and again.. and again.. and it doesn't even mention the word desktop os anywhere.. i dunno what.. but it deosn't seem to go into most ppl's head!!!

yes, for a person who has specific need ubuntu/suse/fedora are really bloats! gentoo is the best distro for them. when u haf a specific need compile only what is required.

btw, rocket never said bsd is *best* and vista is *crap*. he said it is more secure than vista. thats as simple as it can be! you need an eye checkup for sure.

gx, u haf no idea what a custom compiled gentoo wid X windows consuming less than 100mb of ram can do. so better don't question abt it. and don't ever make the mistake of comparing that system to windows system running in windows classic wid all eye candy turned off. that is sheer stupidity. you haf absolutely no idea about it!

i hafnt used VS2003/5 so i'm not commenting anything on it.



			
				gx said:
			
		

> You call Vista less secure compared to OpenBSD. I call OpenBSD less user friendly compared to Vista.


rite.. problem sorted out. lets change the thread title to "OpenBSD is more secure than vista while vista is more user friendly than BSD" problem solved!!



			
				gx said:
			
		

> yes, eggjactly. Use whatever you want, just don't rant about your product being the best cos it is not without its flaws.


correct. i've by-hearted this line now. i see it in every thread of urs. but it doesn't seem to go into ur own head!

show me one instance where in thread somebody has said that linux is best or bsd is best. they haf used comparitives not superlatives in any post!!!

edit: i've been using linux distros widout a swap partition for years now.


----------



## iMav (Jul 7, 2007)

infra ... chk for urself every thread ... we arent the ones trolling around ... its always a lin boy or a mac boy


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jul 7, 2007)

yes buddy.. i've checked every thread.. what you 3 keep saying is not that your product is best. but try to show that the other product is worst. its the same both ways!! seriously, i pity ur perspective at looking at things....


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 7, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> infra ... chk for urself every thread ... we arent the ones trolling around ... its always a lin boy or a mac boy


I'm trolling, in case anyone has doubts...hahaha

But honestly, isn't the thread title a bit of trolling, too?  (i.e. hahaha my OS is better than yours because it's more secure?)...

Isn't that the entire point of this thread?  Just curious.



			
				infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> edit: i've been using linux distros widout a swap partition for years now.


Indeed...



			
				infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> imav, i told you to test each and every os wid a positive thot. not jus for finding flaws in it!



Ummm...hrmmm.  Well, I must admit my Win2k3 install serves just that purpose...finding flaws.  I'm currently doing research into Windows security, and I've managed to exploit 2k3 in a few ways (nothing special...mostly smb/IE stuff).  Haven't started testing on Slackware yet, but it'll happen soon =).


----------



## iMav (Jul 7, 2007)

the point of the thread was just a news article but lin boys' & mac boys' egos were hurt and hence it turned into a my OS is more secure battle ... which the lin boys were saying ... we never said that windows is more secure ...


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 7, 2007)

Thread Topic? said:
			
		

> Re: Vista is still the *most* secure OS to date.





			
				iMav said:
			
		

> *we never said that windows is more secure* ...


Boy you are seriously blind.  Check the thread topic, man!


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jul 7, 2007)

rocket357 said:
			
		

> Boy you are seriously blind.  Check the thread topic, man!


everyone is blind. one says something which contradicts the thread title yet defends it. another says no no.. it is the most secure amongst only the desktop os.. yet another says..yeah true but windows is more usable then <xyz>... u can treat a person who has poor vision but not a person who's completely blind!!!


----------



## iMav (Jul 7, 2007)

haan toh maine thread title diya kya


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 7, 2007)

infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> everyone is blind. one says something which contradicts the thread title yet defends it. one says no no.. is only in the desktop os.. one says..yeah true but windows is more usable then <xyz>... u can treat a person which has poor vision but not a person who's completely blind!!!



Well, I guess I'm blind too.  I fail to see how 2 high severity vulnerabilities per month < 2 high severity vulnerabilities per decade...


----------



## gxsaurav (Jul 7, 2007)

infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> everyone is blind. u can treat a person which has poor vision but not a person who's completely blind!!!


 
Yup...eggjactly, just look at the size of spects Rocket is wearing


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 7, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Yup...eggjactly, just look at the size of spects Rocket is wearing



HAHAHA Indeed!  They're something, aren't they?!?


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jul 7, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> haan toh maine thread title diya kya


jab thread title tune nahi diya to uske paksh mein kyon bol raha hai??!!! stupid logic man!!!

translation:
imav: yean but i didn't give the thread title
infra_red_dude: then why are u defending it?!!

true gx, rocket has worn specs and has now corrected himself. time for you to do the same!!


----------



## iMav (Jul 7, 2007)

im not defending the title im against the un-necessary bahsing of windows by lin boys and mac boys which is quite evident fromt he beginning


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jul 7, 2007)

iMav said:
			
		

> technically there is nothing wrong with the title coz ... open bsd doesnt qualify as a desktop OS ...


who is this iMav who's defending the title??!!!



			
				iMav said:
			
		

> ... i wonder were we wrong when we said it in the beginning that vista the most secure os ....


and this is the very second post of this thread made by you!


----------



## iMav (Jul 7, 2007)

ya right stop behaving like abhishelkh manu singhvi and arun jaitley


----------



## infra_red_dude (Jul 7, 2007)

ok buddy i'm outta this stupid debate. you don't stand by what you urself haf said sometime ago. whats the point in debating?!!!

guess i made a mistake by posting here into this thread. something rekindled me to debate... and i started participating in this discussion. but... anyways... back to a spectator now! wasted a lot of time here. cud've learnt something in that time and mite've helped someone wid whatever knowledge i haf 

"vista is still the most secure os" (yeah desktop/server/home/workstation..plz tick whatever you like!! )

happy debating...


----------



## kalpik (Jul 7, 2007)

Ok people, move on.. Point proven.. Thread topic/title nullified, as accepted by ALL. I think mods can lock this thread now.


----------



## mehulved (Jul 7, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> rocket357 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Gosh. I thought you were bad only in english. But your reasoning is even worse. Please don't waste your time giving CAT. Can't you differenciate between RAM and hard disk space?


----------



## gxsaurav (Jul 7, 2007)

Gosh, I wonder how were u not able to understand what I meant, when the user I was refering the lines to understood it easily.


----------



## ashu_dps (Jul 7, 2007)

Sorry a lil OT



			
				mehulved said:
			
		

> Gosh. I thought you were *bad only in english.* But your reasoning is even worse. Please don't waste your time giving CAT. Can't you *differenciate* between RAM and hard disk space?



Mehul, bad english, CAT ? 

Some correction needed 

Was just a spectator here bt couldnt resist myself aftr seeing this little error, or typo


----------



## mehulved (Jul 7, 2007)

yeah my fault. I am rally bad at doing more than 3 things at once. Am too careless.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jul 7, 2007)

See, this is why I told u not to use gentoo & use Mandriva which comes with everything already configured. Just start it , & work.

Or, you can always switch to Vista


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 8, 2007)

ashu_dps said:
			
		

> Mehul, bad english, CAT ?
> 
> Some correction needed
> 
> Was just a spectator here bt couldnt resist myself aftr seeing this little error, or typo



If I'm not mistaken, 99% of the people in this debate are from India.  Again, (correct me if I'm wrong), English is not the native language in India.  A stray typo or two is certainly allowed...heh.  (I come from a native-English-speaking country, and *I've* had typo's, too...so I certainly can't complain about other typos!)

And I think this debate has come to at least a workable agreement that a) Vista is not the most secure OS to date (though it's six month report looks excellent), b) OpenBSD is for extremist computer nerds, c) Linux gives you choice to use a "fire and forget" distro or a "tweak until you can't see straight" distro.  Have I missed anything?  Heh.


----------



## gxsaurav (Jul 8, 2007)

Add to it, Vista is the most secure consumer desktop OS.


----------



## vaithy (Jul 8, 2007)

gx_saurav said:
			
		

> Add to it, Vista is the most secure consumer desktop OS.



Yes!!  among the Windows editions  this is a secure OS so far, nothing major flows found, even the earlier flows has been rectified.. ( I am working on a New PC with vista preinstalled in my office)

But, it doesn't meant that it surpass the  typical security elements built in Linux and BSD variants (including MAC)

with regards,
Vaithy


----------



## praka123 (Jul 8, 2007)

^ that's what from the beginning i said,UNIXen are inherently more secure.I think now the answer is clear.


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 8, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> ^ that's what from the beginning i said,UNIXen are inherently more secure.I think now the answer is clear.


Compared to Windows 2003 (Edit - XP MCE also...pre-Vista Windows!) and before, this statement holds.  Pre-Vista Windows machines made hardly an attempt to separate administrative (Ring 0) process spaces from one another, meaning a virus/worm/rootkit/etc... could modify process space of another administrative process as long as it could just get "a foot in the door" by exploiting a different administrative process (or in the case of a rootkit (typically the payload of an initial exploit), be put in place by an administrator process exploit).  (or at least gain administrative priv. based on priv. escalation and the like)...(you get what I mean).  This is a majority of the reason why pre-Vista viruses are so prevalent.

Couple that with Intel's 32 bit "shortcut" (there are three basic attributes that memory can have: read, write, execute.  Intel took a shortcut (to be executable, it must be readable), so they shortened it to read/execute, and write.  Unfortunately for data portions of memory, this means that for that section of memory to be read/write, it MUST also be executable...this is bad, and I *believe* intel rectified the situation with the P4 64 (and later) processors, but I can't say definitively).  (Edit - it's my understanding that creating a situation in which memory is writable/executable is bad in ALL contexts, though it's done in many situations currently)

Ok, so XP on 32 bit suffers two MAJOR problems.  XP on 64 bit suffers one major problem.  Vista on 32 bit (does such a thing exist?) would suffer one major problem.  Vista on 64 bit (which is most of the market, if I'm not mistaken) suffers from neither of the previous severe security issues that previous Windows versions suffer from.  This doesn't mean it's bullet proof, but it puts it in a different class from WinXP/Win2k3.

Sorry to play the devil's advocate here, but the truth must stand on it's own.

Edit (last one haha) - Linux/BSD on x86 DO suffer the intel shortcoming (write/execute).  It's my understanding, though, that Linux/BSD deal with it through software permissions (which pre-Vista Windows didn't support to the extent that Linux/BSD machines do).  I could be completely wrong, but this is my understanding of the situation.  If you notice something that you KNOW is incorrect, please inform me!


----------



## praka123 (Jul 8, 2007)

Yes i know that NT kernel made big advances as with Vista and win95 to win me suffered inferiror permission system which made them very vulnerable.but that doesnt make the kernel fully different.i mean the same base is for winnt,win2000 too holds afaik.but i am skeptical of the Vista kernel tonly time can tell whether that lives upto M$ claims.
and i heard Vista got a "sudo" so,that means they are copying more from UNIX


----------



## rocket357 (Jul 8, 2007)

praka123 said:
			
		

> i heard Vista got a "sudo" so,that means they are copying more from UNIX


Vista introduced two concepts to the NT line that enhance security, and both were pioneered in the Unix world.

First, Address Space Layout Randomization.  This means an executable (primary target of buffer overflows, which are arguably the "king" of exploits at the moment) can be built like a dynamic library and the entry points can be randomized.  (This was pioneered by IBM in early 2001...look up "ProPolice"...and was rolled into GCC in April 2004 for use on Linux systems, *THOUGH NOT ALL LINUX SYSTEMS USE IT!!!!!!!!!*) (is my dislike of "user friendly" Linux distros becoming clear? hahaha).  This makes it MUCH more difficult to exploit a service/executable because offsets are randomized and the like.  (Edit - just for information's sake:  PAX is a two-part add-on.  The components are PIE (Position Independent Executable...same as Vista's Address Space Layout Randomization) and SSP (Stack Smash Protector)  SSP on Unix/Linux works by compiling executables in a specialized manner...every time a buffer is created, the buffer is made slightly larger than necessary.  The excess space is filled with a random "canary value", and after the function call completes *but before it returns!*, the canary value is verified.  If the canary value is in place still, no buffer overflow has occurred, and the function returns normally.  However, if the canary value has been modified (a buffer overflow HAS occurred), then the program terminates without returning from the function call (better to have a program crash than get compromised)).

Second, User Access Control.  By default, the "admin" account on Vista (this is my understanding...if some of you that have greater understanding of Vista's security model want to chip in, please do!) runs in "reduced" permission mode, and to switch back to full admin mode requires interaction from the user.  Unfortunately, this interaction is simply a click (not password entry) (Edit - my last brush with Vista was RC1, so this MAY have changed since then!), so it's not as secure (though many Linux systems use sudo in an insecure manner, too).  Basically, Vista's implementation is a "reverse" sudo.

The bottom line:  Yeah, Vista has "copied" stuff from Unix...but then again, Vista has this technology, making it more secure.  It's almost a "religious" debate, because you can argue all day that it's "copying" stuff, and Vista supporters can claim that doesn't matter because Vista is more secure...either way, you make no progress on either side.



			
				praka123 said:
			
		

> but that doesnt make the kernel fully different.i mean the same base is for winnt,win2000 too holds afaik.but i am skeptical of the Vista kernel tonly time can tell whether that lives upto M$ claims.


Starting with Windows NT, Microsoft completely re-wrote the kernel from the ground up.  Part of the reason was that Windows 9x relied on old 16 bit code, and the NT kernel was written to be fully 32 bit.  Yes, it's a different animal.

You're right that the same code base is used for NT, 2000, XP, 2003, and Vista.  But take a Linux kernel and compile it with the defaults...then patch it with RSBAC and PAX, compile it, and look at the security difference.  The same code base can change *quite a bit* based on parameters passed to the compiler, patches to the code base, the hardware it runs on, etc...

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but bashing Microsoft just because it's Microsoft makes no sense (Edit - and yes, I've been guilty of M$ bashing during the course of this discussion...I was trolling =).  You have every right to be skeptical because of Microsoft's track record...but just like anything in life, things change constantly.  I'm not saying that you should go spend $400 on Vista, but keep an open mind about it.   (Edit - my overall goal is to find and use the most secure systems for each category of system I need (server, workstation, home desktop, etc...).  Should I discover tomorrow that Microsoft produces a more secure system (which will take a LOT because I have grown accustomed to having access to source code), I'd switch to Microsoft *for that particular need*, not because I'm a Linux fanboy, but because I seek an appropriate system for my needs...and since the majority of the gaming I do is easily covered by Linux (Nexuiz, alienarena, doom3, etc...), I stick to Linux for my gaming needs).

This isn't about winning arguments, this is about discussing reality =)


----------



## anandk (Aug 18, 2007)

latest... 

*i144.photobucket.com/albums/r168/happyandy/secure.png

Jeff Jones Security Blog


----------



## infra_red_dude (Aug 18, 2007)

the argument continues!


----------



## vish786 (Aug 18, 2007)

infra_red_dude said:
			
		

> the argument continues!


couldn't agree more. 

me also expectin someone to reply here too....

but after comparin first graph and this graph, theirs a lot of changes in Mac OS fixes.


----------



## gxsaurav (Aug 18, 2007)

Vista is doing good


----------



## rocket357 (Aug 19, 2007)

^^ Yep...Vista is doing good.  Just goes to show that Microsoft does listen to their customers (even if it takes setting back their anticipated release date a few times), and the customers want security.  This is a good combination.

But comparing Vista to Ubuntu is really funny, IMHO.  Even RedHat/Novell...  I'd still like to see these studies re-run with a security-minded Linux system, a *real* BSD system (not Mac), and Vista...I'm genuinely curious to see the results of such a study.


----------



## Zeeshan Quireshi (Aug 19, 2007)

But a BSD system is of not much use on a Desktop . That's the point .


----------



## kalpik (Aug 19, 2007)

^^ Here we go again!  Please READ the thread title, and just point out WHERE THE HELL the word desktop is mentioned?!!!


----------



## ankushkool (Aug 19, 2007)

wait 4 few months n then we will talk about vista's security....
n this dosent hide de fact that vista has features which apple came up with 4-5 years back... no more 2 say


----------



## infra_red_dude (Aug 19, 2007)

kalpik said:
			
		

> ^^ Here we go again!  Please READ the thread title, and just point out WHERE THE HELL the word desktop is mentioned?!!!


no use pointing it out, kalpik. i think they better add the word desktop everywhere - the graph, the article, the thread title.... since everyone's going gaga over it!


----------



## din (Aug 20, 2007)

anandk said:
			
		

> latest...
> Jeff Jones Security Blog



WOW, yes it continues !!

Thought its something new, like some third party analysis atleast. This is the same guy rt ? I mean *the author of the blog work for Microsoft*, and we expect him to tell Vista is not secure ?

Anyway, we could have changed the title atleast, as we all agreed in the first phase of the heated up arguement, I mean about the desktop sector....


----------



## praka123 (Aug 20, 2007)

^the fellow who started this thread is posting pro-M$ news and some other craps just to create trolls for sometime now. I hope better  keep his fanboyism to himself and his vista club.dont make Linux/other OS users  blood pressure risen.and I think as per what i get there is a pro-windows and office forum supported devil itself in India.some "merawindow$" etc.go there-dont come here to create troll by posting FUD pro-m$ ideas here.


----------



## ankushkool (Aug 20, 2007)

you know what i thought of windows as a great company... n bill as a genius ...UNTILL i saw "pirates of de silicon valley"
they r smart not genius


----------



## infra_red_dude (Aug 20, 2007)

^^^ windows is not a company. its a product!


----------



## nik_for_you (Aug 20, 2007)

still vista is not much spread as xp. 
so there might be some security issues in it but still not discovered..
i am using vista since one month.. still not found any major prob except compitibility issues


----------



## Help~Is~Here (Aug 20, 2007)

Lol.. I can't believe how well the vista fanboys argue about such things. The matter of fact is that it is a report by a Microsoft Security Developer and NOT by an Security Industry Analyst!! No matter how much the author himself says he is not biased, it's common nature to be biased towards what you are doing, otherwise it undermines the whole point of what you are working on. Do you expect someone to tell that the work is doing is crap?? So, conclusion is that it's a perfectly biased report. You Vista Fanboys can keep on aruging about it as long as you like!

The second part is that just because lesser vulnerabilities have been found in an OS doesn't make it secure at all!! And also where the hell did he get the report for the other OS's from?? Do you expect Apple to give out their security report to some rival Microsoft a** so that he can publish it on his blog?? How sad for those who think that is right. As far as what the author has written in his blog, it's clear that his perception of security reports about other OS is from his past experience and not with regards to current updated security issues. So, in short, this ja**a** is comparing his past security knowledge of other OS with the present day work that he is doing! Nothing more to say about it.

And I have to say agian that this is not an industry accepted report!! It is just the view of a Microsoftian! This report has been thrown into the garbage by industry experts because it has no credibility or authenticity! So, vista Fanboys, for the love of GOD, stop backing up crap reports!!


----------



## rocket357 (Aug 21, 2007)

Zeeshan Quireshi said:
			
		

> But a BSD system is of not much use on a Desktop . That's the point .



It's funny you say BSD is useless on the desktop...They make wonderful desktops as long as you don't whine every time you have to *gasp*...do something manually or *gasp* have to learn how something works!

Security?  Forget it!  It's more important that I guard my ability to use my computer without having to figure anything out!

Long live Bill Gates!  (yes, I'm being sarcastic)


----------



## anandk (Sep 30, 2007)

BlueHat Security Briefings : Vista and Vigilance

"One has to admit that Vista is arguably the most secure closed-source OS available on the market. Microsoft did do a good job at addressing the issues of previous Windows versions. Progress on all fronts has been achieved, and MS is probably better than any other closed-source software vendor when it comes to the the security of their products.

This makes it difficult for attackers. The cost of developing an exploit for Vista is significantly higher than for any previous versions.

As a result, I think that most of the security researchers will move on to greener pastures for a while. Why try to chase a difficult overflow out of Vista when you have Acrobat Reader installed, some Antivirus software with shoddy file parsing, and the latest ITunes ?

I expect only a small number of remotely exploitable vulnerabilities in Vista. We will see everybody else getting hammered though. But, for a while, there will be (relative) quiet and calm in Redmond."

*blogs.technet.com/bluehat/archive/2007/09/28/vista-and-vigilance.aspx


----------



## infra_red_dude (Sep 30, 2007)

Its coffee, Its toffee, coffee, toffee.... Aargh! The argument continues! Parry's Coffee Bit.. err.. I mean, Microsoft Windows Vista


----------



## rocket357 (Sep 30, 2007)

anandk said:
			
		

> "One has to admit that Vista is arguably the most secure *closed-source* OS available on the market."


Indeed.  It's sad, but true.  Microsoft has done well.  That blog was well written, and precise.

Too bad *this thread* doesn't claim "closed-source"...  =D


----------



## din (Sep 30, 2007)

Vista is the most secure OS.

 Vista is still the most secure OS.

 Vista is still the most secure OS to date.

 Vista is still the most secure Desktop OS to date.

Vista is arguably the most secure closed-source OS available on the market.

Tail of God Hanuman 

anandk - Congrats - for making this thread live again


----------



## goobimama (Sep 30, 2007)

^^ LOL! I'm sure the next one is going to be 

"Vista is probably/maybe the most secure version of Windows...but we're not sure."


----------



## anandk (Sep 30, 2007)

i prefer to update threads with news which i find 
best to ignore threads if they dont interest you


----------



## praka123 (Sep 30, 2007)

i think he is hired by __$$___  Hope anandk completely shifting to Ubuntu and having ubuntuclub.com-book ur domain asap  while Vista is a failure for M$.
It is bugging us hard that u want a flame war by this sort of news from some crappy M$ fanboy's blog.I'll have this user in ignore list rather than the forum.


----------



## infra_red_dude (Sep 30, 2007)

well imho, anandk is one of the more respectable and senior MVPs here  so far i hafnt found him indulging in any flame wars. he's just posted the news and also given the source. he's not arguing/claiming anything (thats for us to do!  )


----------



## praka123 (Sep 30, 2007)

well senior or junior-his (some)posts makes blood boil!I think triggering flame wars is the correct word.


----------



## infra_red_dude (Sep 30, 2007)

lolz.. keep ur cool prakash... chill


----------



## Garbage (Sep 30, 2007)

Prakash, control urself yaar...


----------



## goobimama (Sep 30, 2007)

@anandk: ::respect smiley::


----------



## kumarmohit (Sep 30, 2007)

@Praka

Take a chill pill dude.


----------



## shantanu (Oct 1, 2007)

you guys are talking non-sense here.. no sense in talking this much.. and @praka : all the time it looks that you are just fried while posting anything.. atleast care for who is a senior member...


----------

