# Debates about the Economy, Politics, Religion, and everything under the sun



## theserpent (Aug 22, 2013)

We all know that Indian economy is becoming worse day by day,Ruppe is becoming weak against Dollar and Now it's 65 Rs What the hell??The goverment just doensn;t seem to care.\
Sensex is at the lowest of 1 year,Onion rates are touching sky high,God knows what's next.
It looks like dollar will touch atleast 70-75 by september Mid.
What do you think the government should do?


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## shreymittal (Aug 22, 2013)

Petrol Prices to be increased by 10Rs and Diesel By 5Rs by this month end


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## theserpent (Aug 22, 2013)

In my opinion,They should do something like more foregin companies(EXPECT WALMART) Invest $$ in India,That way there will be more flow of money



shreymittal said:


> Petrol Prices to be increased by 10Rs and Diesel By 5Rs by this month end



WTH 

Looks like i'll be eating rice with 99% water curry in my lunch breaks  As all canteens will do that  to beat expenses and Softdrinks,fruit juices will have more water too


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## snap (Aug 22, 2013)

why is the rupee falling so quickly?


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## shreymittal (Aug 22, 2013)

snap said:


> why is the rupee falling so quickly?



Corruption Buddy Corruption


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## Flash (Aug 22, 2013)

snap said:


> why is the rupee falling so quickly?


Because, there's no one to catch it as their hands are full with Black money.


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## snap (Aug 22, 2013)

corruption can't be the only reason for the rapid decline in rupee, is it because of certain policies?


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## Renny (Aug 22, 2013)

*Why has govt failed to arrest rupee's free fall? - Money - DNA*


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## Hrishi (Aug 22, 2013)

snap said:


> corruption can't be the only reason for the rapid decline in rupee, is it because of certain policies?


Many invester wouldn't want to invest their money in India because of the unstable and corrupt government over here.I am sure most of th'm are loosing their faith and trust in Indian economy.

The declining currency value is a sign on loss in one way, however on other hand several other sectors benefit from it as well. For instance , IT big boys like TCS, Wipro who are providing service to foreign companies are earning biggies these days.

While this may help some but like every other scenarios its the common mango people who have to suffer either way.


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## Gen.Libeb (Aug 22, 2013)

This time its not just India. 
Asia's emerging markets and currencies hurt by Fed minutes


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## heidi2521 (Aug 27, 2013)

****ing hell. Rupee breached 66 today. WTF is the government doing?


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## shreymittal (Aug 27, 2013)

dead5 said:


> ****ing hell. Rupee breached 66 today. WTF is the government doing?



Looting our Country


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## sujoyp (Aug 27, 2013)

god knows y govt is soo interested in food security bill only....which will put huge amount of monitery load on budget..

they r not even interested to discuss the downfall of rupee...or give clarifications


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## heidi2521 (Aug 27, 2013)

The govt will ruin the country if it means getting a 3rd term in 2014. The poor aren't affected by currency fluctuations directly and will see that they got food cheaply due to UPA II, nevermind the overall effects on the economy. BJP/NDA won't dare say no so that they don't alienate the poor either. Stupid populism, corruption and vote bank politics are sending this nation down the gutter. 

Sadly uneducated poor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educated middle class + educated rich in this country.

BTW the Rupee touched 67.5 against USD already.


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## Flash (Aug 27, 2013)

To Divert the attention and to win the upcoming election..


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## heidi2521 (Aug 27, 2013)

India Official Signals Gov't Won't Save Rupee - Forbes


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## shreymittal (Aug 27, 2013)

Well I'm still thinking who will win in 2014 Elections ??
Congress = Rahul Gandhi 
BJP = Narendra Modi


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## theserpent (Aug 27, 2013)

Modi but not bjp


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## heidi2521 (Aug 27, 2013)

Even if Modi/BJP win Congress is preparing a poison pill in the form of the current CAD, direct money transfers, FSB, freebies etc. that will hurt their performance after elections. I fully expect legislature locking shenanigans from Congress to hurt the winning party, if they don't win. 

The people I want to win don't have a farts chance in the wind


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## Skud (Aug 27, 2013)

What's wrong with direct money transfer? It should have been there right from the beginning.


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## heidi2521 (Aug 27, 2013)

Isn't it essentially bribery for votes? 

They will transfer money into poor peoples bank accounts instead of giving them Rs. 1000 or w/e by visiting their villages/localities. So now they are bribing them with tax payers money instead of their own funds (likely also from taxpayers). Only thing is that this time it is legal.


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## amjath (Aug 27, 2013)

I Want "nobody" in the poll 
cause i will not vote this election


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## Skud (Aug 27, 2013)

^^DMT is meant to weed out the middleman from the equation and to essentially stop corruption/siphoning of funds that happens in almost every subsidy based schemes.

You people are not happy with any situation.


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## gopi_vbboy (Aug 27, 2013)

sad times


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## KyleSforza (Aug 27, 2013)

I'm just gonna vote for whichever sign I like -_- Although we NEED congress in Delhi (as our CM is hard working, and I can say if there's anyone good enough to compete against Modi, its Sheila Dixit)


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## nickzcool (Aug 28, 2013)

Fdi & corruption is the main reason of this situation as fdi the cash flows out of the country we should use goods made in our country so that the cash flow increase within our country .


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## KyleSforza (Aug 28, 2013)

FDI cash flows out of country?  In a way it doesn't, haven't you read the terms? They must buy their raw materials here, they will hire Indian workers, they must invest a minimum of 10 crore, all that money is coming TO India, not going out.

But sad part is our company is so slow that it hasn't been implemented yet. 

IMHO All politicians are stupid, be it a good idea or bad idea, all of them waste months arguing like *****es, ideas should be debated upon, not argued. -_-


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## funskar (Aug 28, 2013)

KyleSforza said:


> I'm just gonna vote for whichever sign I like -_- Although we NEED congress in Delhi (as our CM is hard working



Sheila hard working


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## heidi2521 (Aug 28, 2013)

Skud said:


> ^^DMT is meant to weed out the middleman from the equation and to essentially stop corruption/siphoning of funds that happens in almost every subsidy based schemes.
> 
> You people are not happy with any situation.



In a perfect world, DMT would work. But there is no telling what it will be used for now. Be it beer or gambling or grain or machinery. 

They should reduce the red tape and reduce the bureaucracy and develop the education, healthcare and transport infrastructure with a focus on medium to long term growth , but we know that it would't get them votes as easily. 

Plus the current govt. is hardly made up of anti corruption crusaders.


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## KyleSforza (Aug 28, 2013)

Let me guess, it was BJP who built Delhi metro, proper streets, flyovers, so many exceptional parkings, malls, clean public toilets(specially for ladies). Also it was BJP who planted so many trees, and made delhi green right? Commonwealth games work was done under BJP's leadership too I assume?

Ofcourse not, Its congress which did all that in Delhi. We already have BJP as a ruling party in all three MCD's, the mayors are of BJP. And look where it took us, no proper drainage system, streets turn into lakes in rainy season. No proper waste management, you can see garbage here and there. No proper cleaning(all streets are dirty, people spitting, throwing garbage everywhere). 

Talking of women security? It'd had been better too if only Delhi police worked under the CM, not Central Government.

Electricity, LPG, Petrol etc are cheapest in Delhi among all Northern states, thanks to subsidies provided by the Delhi government.

The truth is, everyone is corrupt in this country(yes, even the beloved Modi is and Kejariwal will be too once he comes in government, if he does), but it doesn't hurt as much if they are doing something good towards the community too, which shows in Sheila's work.


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## shreymittal (Aug 28, 2013)

KyleSforza said:


> *Electricity, LPG, Petrol etc are cheapest in Delhi among all Northern states, thanks to subsidies provided by the Delhi government.*



Huhh..What

AFAIK its GOA


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## mediator (Aug 28, 2013)

funskar said:


> Sheila hard working



Exactly my reaction!

@Kyle - I don't know what affinity you have to Sheila, but I guess you forgot of 
* Killer Dwarka flyover
* Lack of testing of Metro Construction near Lakshmi Nagar when it fell killing 2 people because of pressure from Delhi Govt dismissing security norms
* The Eternal waterlogging during monsoons and neglected areas - Seelampur, Shahadara and many other areas which are totally ignored by Delhi Govt
* Sheila's statements - Rs 600 is enough for a family of five
* Lack of focus towards Bangaldeshi immigrants often associated with crimes
* Power problem and water scarcity (Yea, it is supposed to be India's capital)
* Randomly Falling Buildings in Lakshmi Nagar and other areas

Green Cover, infrastructue and whatever you said should have been builtlong time ago and should have been even better given the large influx of population from other parts of the country and considering it to be the hub of national activities and centres. Only during CWG they have been revamped and all infront of my eyes. 60+ years of congress rule and still we do not have adequate parallel flyovers, like they have over River Thanes, often choking traffic at ITO or Nizammudding areas; we still do not have clean Yamuna even after spending 1500 crores over it and so we still do not have adequate protection for women or ban on liquor. The rape capital of the country or call it the crime capital. After all, How big is Delhi as compared to Gujarat? I guess too large to maintain that even after 60+ years it remains a joke and the pollutants from Yamuna alone enough to ail the entire land, let alone the individual smoking and boozing of the addicts. You do as you wish!

For the patriots!
1. Make sure you have your voting card made and ready in your hand!
2. Make sure you go out on the voting day and cast your vote. Make sure you vote for Modi.
3. Educate atleast 50 rural or illiterate people about the chaos and make sure they also vote for Modi.

Let us do our part in our own limited powers.


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## rhitwick (Aug 28, 2013)

First I could not connect the poll with the question asked, then I saw the thread take a sudden U-turn from rupee falling to who'll win election and why...

I'm not sure what answer to give here.
So summing up both in one; the economy won't recover until next poll. Everyone knows term of present govt. ending in months and there is every chance new govt. might not be of same party.
Few key policies are bound to change if that happens hence every investor is taking the route of wait and watch.
IMO this turmoil would continue till next poll. If there is a recovery don't expect it a huge one.

Rupee might recover till 58-60 not beyond that prior to election.

Personal opinion, I want Congress to win. A failed democracy is better than a dictator. I guess that is the reason we drove away the british, right?


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## heidi2521 (Aug 28, 2013)

Current congress policies will hurt the next wonner too. 

*twitter.com/minhazmerchant/status/372573311856701440



> Food bill or fraud bill? Govt budgets mere 10,000cr for #FSB in 2013-14, leaves post-dated chq for next govt #pdcVotes



Congress is ensuring that no matter who wins, the people lose. I'll take a democratically elected benevolent dictator over scamgress any day.


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## Nipun (Aug 28, 2013)

shreymittal said:


> Huhh..What
> 
> AFAIK its GOA



Want me to buy you a map?


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## deepanshuchg (Aug 28, 2013)

shreymittal said:


> Huhh..What
> 
> AFAIK its GOA


Aaj pata chala that GOA is a northern state


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## Nipun (Aug 28, 2013)

mediator said:


> Exactly my reaction!
> 
> @Kyle - I don't know what affinity you have to Sheila, but I guess you forgot of
> * Killer Dwarka flyover


I don't know much about it, but the drivers on our roads can make even the perfect roads a warzone. Would be interested in knowing more about it though.



> * The Eternal waterlogging during monsoons and neglected areas - Seelampur, Shahadara and many other areas which are totally ignored by Delhi Govt


That's what kyle said. BJP is ruling all MCDs and nothing is done on their part.



> * Sheila's statements - Rs 600 is enough for a family of five


She did not say Rs. 600 is enough. She was providing extra 600 to people under poverty line. Don't tell me you want everyone to stay at home doing nothing while government pays thousands. 600 + whatever they earn is better than 0 + whatever they earn.



> * Power problem and water scarcity (Yea, it is supposed to be India's capital)





> * Randomly Falling Buildings in Lakshmi Nagar and other areas


Again, MCD.



> Green Cover, infrastructue and whatever you said should have been built long time ago and should have been even better given the large influx of population from other parts of the country and considering it to be the hub of national activities and centres. Only during CWG they have been revamped and all infront of my eyes. *60+ years* of congress rule and still we do not have adequate parallel flyovers, like they have over River Thanes, often choking traffic at ITO or Nizammudding areas; we still do not have clean Yamuna even after spending 1500 crores over it and so we still do not have adequate protection for women or ban on liquor. The rape capital of the country or call it the crime capital. After all, How big is Delhi as compared to Gujarat? I guess too large to maintain that even after *60+ years* it remains a joke and the pollutants from Yamuna alone enough to ail the entire land, let alone the individual smoking and boozing of the addicts. You do as you wish!


Shiela Dikshit is 75 years old. You mean to say she is CM of Delhi since she was 15? Shiela Dikshit will complete 15 years as CM of Delhi in coming elections.

About traffic problems, they will continue to exist as long as people don't learn how to drive on public roads. Knowing accelerator, brake, clutch is not knowing how to drive, there are some basic etiquette involced too.
Rapes and crimes exist in other parts of country too. Only some that happen in metropolitan cities catch the attention of media. Not justifying rapes - they must be stopped.

BTW This was a thread about Indian Govt. not Delhi Govt.


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## mediator (Aug 28, 2013)

Well Said @Dead5. 

@Rhitwick - Congress does not associate with a failed democracy either, but a dictatorship of Gandhi family alone under the smokescreen of nice words like 'secularism, democracy' or whatever suits the mind of the people. Robert Vadra scams and non-checkup at airport, "private medical tours" of Sonia during Anna and Ramdev's individual Anshans, Sonia's non-disclosure of IT returns, constant misuse of CBI against anyone who opposes Congress and the political enemies, $12 billion "donation" to Europe at a time of internal crisis and poverty looming at large, inexperienced people rising to top without any academic let alone administrative experience. We see Gujarat and constant criticism. How about the situation in Rae Bareilly - Sonia's BAstion, Amethi - Amul Baby's fort. Countless scams, list of riots under Congress rule....This was surely not 'failed democracy' my friend! Perhaps a new phenomena in politics not totally understood by politic pandits, if not dictatorship.

Anyways, you should read Modi's history from being a tea seller, to a wanderer, to selfless service to Nation under RSS, then to selfless service to Gujarat. Read about Gujarat's Lokpal and myths associated. A dictator surely cannot get involved with the people, serve their ideas, utilize their viewpoints etc. Read his speeches, many of his ideas are not his own but gathered from crowd and served for the crowd!

On the other hand, Congress is fork of British rule, a party created by British which till today goes by divide and rule, now only deeper to religion, caste, SC/ST, reservation/quota based on religion in a so called "secular nation". No my friend, if you associate Modi to British rule, then I lodge a strong protest! :'(


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## Flash (Aug 28, 2013)

Today,
1$ = 68Rs.


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## shreymittal (Aug 28, 2013)

And here it goes
Diesel prices to be hiked by Rs. 4-6 per litre | CarDekho.com


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## Skud (Aug 28, 2013)

dead5 said:


> In a perfect world, DMT would work. But there is no telling what it will be used for now. *Be it beer or gambling or grain or machinery. *
> 
> They should reduce the red tape and reduce the bureaucracy and develop the education, healthcare and transport infrastructure with a focus on medium to long term growth , but we know that it would't get them votes as easily.
> 
> Plus the current govt. is hardly made up of anti corruption crusaders.




Didn't get the point. What's beer and gambling got to do with subsidies?


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## heidi2521 (Aug 28, 2013)

Skud said:


> Didn't get the point. What's beer and gambling got to do with subsidies?



Nothing. Under a subsidy scheme they couldn't spend it on all that, but they can easily withdraw the DMT money to do it.


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## mediator (Aug 28, 2013)

Nipun said:
			
		

> That's what kyle said. BJP is ruling all MCDs and nothing is done on their part.


During 2002, when Narendra Modi was new to the administration, riots happened which were controlled in 3 days. But, for that control, Modi has asked for support from three neighbouring states ruled by Congress for "police support" which was ignored. Rajasthan, suffering from power scarcity, was offered surplus electricity from Gujarat which was ignored. When Modi offered, helicopters and needed support to Uttarakhand Govt apart from working at ground level himself, it was ignored. 

So when Gujarat asks for centre's help, it is ignored. When Gujarat offers help, it is ignored.

You can play the blame game between Congress-MCD here as well. But MCD cannot work without COngress's cooperation unlike Modi who still found detours to work selflessly.

Metronewz : Delhi Govt is not cooperating MCD:Vijay Goel,BJP - YouTube
Illegal colonies to blame for waterlogging, says MCD - Hindustan Times

You should read the court orders as to who is doing what and why is there a delay!




			
				sheila said:
			
		

> Sheila's statements - Rs 600 is enough for a family of five


Sheila Dikshit says Rs. 600 enough for family of five, slammed | Deccan Chronicle

You are free to make your own interpretations. According to other so called leaders, you can get "food" for Rs. 5 in Delhi (rasheed Masood), Rs. 12 in Mumbai (Raj Babbar), Rs 1 in India (Farooq Abdullah).

So we have poverty line reduced to Rs.28, Diesel beyond 52, Onion Rs 80, unemployment at large.....list goes on and here you are justifying Rs.600 comment! Imagine the furore that would have lasted for next 10 years if by some random chance Modi had made such a comment.


I don't care what age Shiela is. If 75 is the age people get rusty, then they should resign the moment they lose their momentum. 15 years she ruled, it would be better had she "served" her duties as a "public servant" rather than making frivolous statements. Anyways, you really think driving sense matters much when the entire traffic of delhi chokes at 2-3 areas?

Its not about Sheila also. But Congress "rule" in Delhi and centre! The list is endless. If I start pouring and exposing Congress, I'm sure it will overload ThinkDigit's servers only after all according to Amul Baby "If India is computer, Cong is its default program". No wonder it hangs with BSODs all around! :'(


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## Skud (Aug 28, 2013)

dead5 said:


> Nothing. Under a subsidy scheme they couldn't spend it on all that, but they can easily withdraw the DMT money to do it.




I think by they you are referring to the beneficiaries, in which case, well, it is their money and they can do whatever they want. Point here is the subsidy is reaching the ultimate beneficiaries to the fullest and that's what matters.


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## rhitwick (Aug 28, 2013)

mediator said:


> @Rhitwick - Congress does not associate with a failed democracy either, but a dictatorship of Gandhi family alone under the smokescreen of nice words like 'secularism, democracy' or whatever suits the mind of the people.


What about Gujrat?
How long Modi is ruling there? 15 years now, right?


> "private medical tours" of Sonia during Anna and Ramdev's individual Anshans,


This was raised by BJP which later proved that Sonia paid the whole amount from her pocket. Not a single penny was reimbursed by Indian Govt.


> constant misuse of CBI against anyone who opposes Congress and the political enemies,


This, my friend is done by every ruling party. Whenever a new party come to power they make CBI raids in their opponent's home. I guess, its kinda norm now. BJP also did in its last term.


> $12 billion "donation" to Europe at a time of internal crisis and poverty looming at large,


This I too couldn't understand. Then I can't even say blatantly if it was done because Sonia has a Italian background. If the donation had a simple reason as stated.
Why it was done?! I hope the govt. had some justified reason.


> inexperienced people rising to top without any academic let alone administrative experience.


Is this even a "Congress only" issue?! Aren't every party in India suffering from this disease?


> Robert Vadra scams and non-checkup at airport, Sonia's non-disclosure of IT returns,


Yes scams are there and scams were there in times of BJP ruling too. None here is pure and honest as they claim to be.
We can only chose the lesser evil.



> We see Gujarat and constant criticism. How about the situation in Rae Bareilly - Sonia's BAstion, Amethi - Amul Baby's fort. Countless scams, list of riots under Congress rule....This was surely not 'failed democracy' my friend! Perhaps a new phenomena in politics not totally understood by politic pandits, if not dictatorship.


Situations are similar if not better. Poverty kind of has similar situation in Gujrat and rest of India. Farmer suicide is also a fact of Gujrat.
Riots...yeah. Compare it with Godhra, in terms of scale and horror. Do that and come back. And then recall Modi's speech regarding that till date. We all hate hate a killler. We hate the killer more who kills and then brags about it.



> Anyways, you should read Modi's history from being a tea seller, to a wanderer, to selfless service to Nation under RSS, then to selfless service to Gujarat. Read about Gujarat's Lokpal and myths associated. A dictator surely cannot get involved with the people, serve their ideas, utilize their viewpoints etc. Read his speeches, many of his ideas are not his own but gathered from crowd and served for the crowd!


Irrelevant.
Words alone don't resolve every problem.



> On the other hand, Congress is fork of British rule, a party created by British which till today goes by divide and rule, now only deeper to religion, caste, SC/ST, reservation/quota based on religion in a so called "secular nation". No my friend, if you associate Modi to British rule, then I lodge a strong protest! :'(


Go ahead, protest.
I hate to see the day when an arrogant person like him becomes our PM. 
I'm from West Bengal. I know how it feels to be ruled by a dictator. Not sure if it would be a pleasant experience when I'll have a dictator PM along with a dictator CM!


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## heidi2521 (Aug 28, 2013)

Skud said:


> I think by they you are referring to the beneficiaries, in which case, well, it is their money and they can do whatever they want. Point here is the subsidy is reaching the ultimate beneficiaries to the fullest and that's what matters.



Here's where our viewpoints differ. Benefiting the recipients so that they can reach a status where they won't need handouts anymore and it not being misused is more important to me. They should cut the red tape, streamline the process to reduce middlemen and invest in infrastructure while providing small subsidies to make sure that they don't starve, not the current vote buying DMT shenanigans.


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## Nipun (Aug 28, 2013)

mediator said:


> So when Gujarat asks for centre's help, it is ignored. When Gujarat offers help, it is ignored.


That will be there if opposite parties are at state-central level. 



> You can play the blame game between Congress-MCD here as well. But MCD cannot work without COngress's cooperation unlike Modi who still found detours to work selflessly.
> 
> Illegal colonies to blame for waterlogging, says MCD - Hindustan Times


There was waterlogging at areas around British and Nepali embassies on this rakhi. They are not illegal.



> You should read the court orders as to who is doing what and why is there a delay!


Would be interested to. Where to find?



> Sheila Dikshit says Rs. 600 enough for family of five, slammed | Deccan Chronicle


...says:


> Under the scheme, claimed to be the first-of-its-kind in the country, a monthly cash subsidy of Rs. 600 will be transferred directly into the Aadhaar-linked bank accounts of the senior-most women member of the family.


Rs. 600 were enough as a subsidy. If real monthly expenses amount to, say Rs. 5k, you want all of that to be paid as subsidy?



> You are free to make your own interpretations. According to other so called leaders, you can get "food" for Rs. 5 in Delhi (rasheed Masood), Rs. 12 in Mumbai (Raj Babbar), Rs 1 in India (Farooq Abdullah).
> 
> So we have poverty line reduced to Rs.28, Diesel beyond 52, Onion Rs 80, unemployment at large.....list goes on and here you are justifying Rs.600 comment! Imagine the furore that would have lasted for next 10 years if by some random chance Modi had made such a comment.


I agree those statements were crap.



> I don't care what age Shiela is. If 75 is the age people get rusty, then they should resign the moment they lose their momentum. 15 years she ruled, it would be better had she "served" her duties as a "public servant" rather than making frivolous statements. Anyways, you really think driving sense matters much when the entire traffic of delhi chokes at 2-3 areas?


I did not mean that she's "rusty" because she's 75. I was just replying to your "Congress is ruling 60+ years" comment. They aren't ruling for 60+ years.
And yes, the only reason for traffic jams is stupidity. Stupidity of drivers who don't know what lanes are, why to follow traffic signals, when to use indicators, proper rules to overtake.... List is endless. Traffic in Delhi chokes because of stupidity. If you think otherwise, follow the link in my signature and take it to that thread.


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## Skud (Aug 28, 2013)

dead5 said:


> Here's where our viewpoints differ. Benefiting the recipients so that they can reach a status where they won't need handouts anymore and it not being misused is more important to me. They should cut the red tape, streamline the process to reduce middlemen and invest in infrastructure while providing small subsidies to make sure that they don't starve, not the current vote buying DMT shenanigans.




Reduce middlemen, not actually obliterating them. So the siphoning off will go on. And its akin to saying your employer should decide for you what you can/can't do with your salary/perks. What you think as a misuse, the beneficiary himself might not think so. And its his money right? He is free do whatever he wants.

As long as we cannot stop subsidies, DMT is the best option IMO to ensure the beneficiary gets the full benefit.


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## theserpent (Aug 28, 2013)

Now 1$=69


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## mediator (Aug 28, 2013)

So back to quote-by-quote 

@Rhitwick - There is a reason, why almost entire developed community/countries, business and people want Modi and admire Modi. You ask what about 15 years of Modi, I say he created a diamond out of some coal which was earlier mostly ruled by Congress. Same situation in MP, where Gujarat has become an exporter of food, energy and good jobs, people enjoying a flourishing river which was given in an almost dead state to him.

Its not about Sonia's "debits and credits" only, but why exactly Sonia went to US and Swiss during Anna's and Ramdev's anshan, what did she do, why doesn't she discloses her IT returns? Even Obama doesn't enjoy such a freedom in the name of freedom and democracy. We really do not know anything about her, her Amul Baby, her daughter, her Damaad, their education status, verification of it, do they still have Italian citizenship. Do you know why she had to quit her earlier PM post?



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> This, my friend is done by every ruling party. Whenever a new party come to power they make CBI raids in their opponent's home. I guess, its kinda norm now. BJP also did in its last term.


Don't you think its a high time we should stop conniving with the "chalta hai attitude" and an excuse "If they did, so let others do it as well"?




Talking about farmer's suicides - Has it reduced or grown? If grown by how much? Why farmer committed suicides? Showing simple statistics does not mean much. For that matter here are the statistics for Maharasthra and Andhra, the leader in farmer suicides.




			
				news said:
			
		

> Farm suicides rose sharply by almost 450 in Maharashtra in 2012 to touch 3,786, the latest National Crime Records Bureau data show. (*The State saw 3,337 suicides in 2011*). That is the worst annual increase in seven years. It also brings Maharashtra’s total tally since the NCRB began recording farm data in 1995 to a staggering 57,604 farmers’ suicides.
> 
> Andhra Pradesh also saw an upward surge. It logged 2,572 farm suicides *in 2012*. That is 366 higher than the previous year’s figure of 2,206. Karnataka and Madhya Pradesh reported declines of 225 and 154 respectively.



Farm suicide trends in 2012 remain dismal - The Hindu

Do note the year, which governments were in power. Whether they were elected newly or stayed for some years when this was reported.





			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Yes scams are there and scams were there in times of BJP ruling too. None here is pure and honest as they claim to be.
> We can only chose the lesser evil.


Please list the scams where Modi is in power. 

Perhaps you can list scams with BJP then and I will list you the scams when SOnia is the head of Party, MMS is the PM and Amul Baby the VP/General secretary.

Lesser evil? So be it! Lets analyze.

You hate Modi perhaps because of his arrogance and I hate MMS for his cowardice, silence and lack of understanding of grass root level and reality. MMS, Monetk and Chidambaram... who really still believes that an "oxford certificate" can save India? Rather, I like Modi because of his arrogance, provocations towards Congress something we see in use against China, Pakistan etc as well. A leader needs to tough and take decisive actions unlike a Maun-vrati PM who needs to consult the Italians on every matter. What do Congress do, (Salman Khurshid) -> "I would love to live in Beijing". Instead of developing your own country, you eat it like a termite and insult it abroad? Yes Modi doesn't need a Visa, nor he ever applied for one like media  keeps on glorifying it like a certificate. But he will create Visas for Americans and thats the attitude we need. Thinking of which, I guess, Amul Baby is stil is wanted in US when he was caught red handed at boston airport with unexplained cash and daughter of druglord!

I would love to live in Beijing, Salman Khurshid says - Times Of India

Yes, 26/11 happened, Intelligence warnings were given, but ignored. Which govt/party was in centre and state? Similarly Uttarakhand floods happened repeated warnings were given to the Congress govt. Why did not the take appropriate measures? Amar Jawan in Mumbai was destroyed and hundreds of "secular" people according to the definition of Congress, cam with weapons and went away. No charges, no imprisonments!

Regarding Gujarat riots, who started the riots? Why congress ignored the role of its own cadres? => Cong silent on cadres linked to Guj riots - Times Of India



			
				riots said:
			
		

> (1) 1964 Communal riots in Rourkela & Jamshedpur | 2000 Killed | Ruling party CONG
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So I compared to Godhra, listed Congress's role in it and came back to question you to who are you to call Modi a killer when SIT committe itself and higher courts have given a clean chit to Modi, unlike the case of Congress in 1984 riots? Are you above the courts or SIT committee?


Here's a detailed analysis -> *www.gujaratriots.com/



			
				rhitwhick said:
			
		

> Go ahead, protest.


No bro, how can I? :'(



			
				Nipun said:
			
		

> Rs. 600 were enough as a subsidy. If real monthly expenses amount to, say Rs. 5k, you want all of that to be paid as subsidy?


With that statement my friend, you just dismissed the Food Security Bill. 



			
				Nipun said:
			
		

> I did not mean that she's "rusty" because she's 75. I was just replying  to your "Congress is ruling 60+ years" comment. They aren't ruling for  60+ years.
> And yes, the only reason for traffic jams is stupidity. Stupidity of  drivers who don't know what lanes are, why to follow traffic signals,  when to use indicators, proper rules to overtake.... List is endless.  Traffic in Delhi chokes because of stupidity. If you think otherwise,  follow the link in my signature and take it to that thread.


Do you realize that you generalize and underestimate the driving sense of Delhites? Even metros, buses get overcrowded. Is that also because of driving sense? Please try to understand what I'm talking about. In simple words, we need more flyovers over Yamuna, solutions to "choke points", better model than that ridiculous BRT, borrowed without India and ground level research in mind, causing accidents every year. This is something Shiela could have done easily in her 15 years of "rule".



			
				Nipun said:
			
		

> That will be there if opposite parties are at state-central level.


Again, I request you too to shed the 'chalta hai attitude'. It is the responsibility of the government to support bodies like MCD, otherwise people will be saying "Soldiers did not fight back and protect India". How can they when centre has tied their hands and offered sticks to fight terrorirsts with Ak-47. You do realize the recent stand off and how Anthony was forced to free Army and take appropriate actions?


----------



## whitestar_999 (Aug 28, 2013)

@dead5,*history is proof in itself that no regime which tried to treat its population like children ever survived in long run including the mighty USSR.if a grown up adult man decides that he want to spend his benefit money on alcohol then no matter what govt do to stop it he will find a way.*many drunks stoop as low as to sell their wife's jewellery so you think they would even think twice before selling PDS grain or signing forged ration card/receipts for middleman to show they received their quota of grain.DCT at least has some positives compared to current PDS systems which only has negatives.

*btw all those above who worry about economy fear not & remember this famous expression:"beggars can't be choosers".in 1991 India was begging & thus forced to open its economy & once again when India reaches that position reforms will take place no matter which party is in power.*


----------



## heidi2521 (Aug 28, 2013)

theserpent said:


> Now 1$=69



Not yet bro. $1 = 68.7350

[CONSPIRACY]Congress is letting rupee devaluate so that they can bring in more rupees from Switzerland for their 2014 general election campaign[/CONSPIRACY]


----------



## theserpent (Aug 28, 2013)

If BJP comes to power I'm afraid that women security in India will become worse,And India will go back to 5th century.
After what BJP has done to Karnataka no one ever will vote for Them here[Read Scams,Corruption,Attacks in Mangalore],Also they were bent on to destroy western Ghats.
But,yeah Modi is the only person "presently" that can change India IMO.
Rahul Gandhi will just make it worse



dead5 said:


> Not yet bro. $1 = 68.7350
> 
> [CONSPIRACY]Congress is letting rupee devaluate so that they can bring in more rupees from Switzerland for their 2014 general election campaign[/CONSPIRACY]



This.

These people are just playing games with the common man.
If petrol is increased by 10,We Indias are done.It will be really hard to survive
On the side note,I read somewhere that they actually wanted to Increase petrol to 100 about a year back but thought to kill us by increasing in smaller amounts.


----------



## Skud (Aug 28, 2013)

^^ As if no other political party or businessmen for that matter are not going to benefit from the depreciating rupee.


----------



## heidi2521 (Aug 28, 2013)

I did label it as a conspiracy for a reason. 

Even so, I wouldn't be surprised if Congress has more money stashed abroad than BJP.


----------



## theserpent (Aug 28, 2013)

Skud said:


> ^^ As if no other political party or businessmen for that matter are not going to benefit from the depreciating rupee.



Hahaha,But cause of this Companies are investing in USA than India,And US economy is improving



Skud said:


> ^^ As if no other political party or businessmen for that matter are not going to benefit from the depreciating rupee.



Hahaha,But cause of this Companies are investing in USA than India,And US economy is improving


----------



## heidi2521 (Aug 28, 2013)

$1 = Rs. 69,21. So prod.


----------



## mediator (Aug 28, 2013)

1. FDI up and green signal to wallmart!
2. $1 = Rs. 69,21 (source = dead5's post)

Anyways, can anyone tell me the implication of rising $value on increased FDI and wallmart installations? The result on local industries? And then, can anyone tell its relation to self-sufficiency that Modi promotes? I'm sure the promoters of Oxford Champ, the silent and the peaceful, non-arrogant one, the loyalist of Amul Baby can surely explain!


----------



## rishitells (Aug 28, 2013)

theserpent said:


> If BJP comes to power I'm afraid that women security in India will become worse,And India will go back to 5th century.



BJP (NDA) was in power for 5 years, till 2004 under Atal ji, and pioneering work was done under him. Do some research about the "Golden Quadrilateral highway project, the *largest highway project in India* and the fifth longest in the world. Another great project was the "Sarv Shiksha Abhiyaan" for mandatory elementary education (remember, beautiful School Chalein Hum song?). Nuclear tests were conducted under Atal ji despite strong condemnation from all abroad and much economic liberalization took place. After 1999 Kargil war, Vajpayee government also established the Defence Intelligence Agency to provide better military intelligence and monitor India's border with Pakistan. Do you still think BJP will lead India to 5th century??

And now Modi. Nobody can disagree that he has done a significant work for the development and welfare of Gujrat, else he wouldn't have risen to this level. India needs a leader, a visionary who can instil new hopes in people, and I am sure that Modi is that leader.

And what congress did? Served biryani to the Pakistan minister after they butchered Indian soldiers and took their heads. I can't even count the number of scams that took place under the scamgress. Anyone who cares for the welfare for the nation won't vote for congress, it's simple!


----------



## theserpent (Aug 28, 2013)

^ This  Exactly,Congress promises things but don't do anything.
But the amount of uneducated ministers in BJP is more

From the past weeks,Pakistan is firing at Indian Troops,What is the goverment doing? Nothing


----------



## gopi_vbboy (Aug 28, 2013)

damn man i wanted to buy some eletronic stuff from usa and rupee falls...

...

*4 ppl voted rahul gandhi *in thread poll ? seriously?


----------



## rishitells (Aug 28, 2013)

theserpent said:


> But the amount of uneducated ministers in BJP is more



 I would largely disagree with that bro. This might be true to local BJP leaders, but the ones on national level are very educated and sensible, more than any other party I can say. For ex- (haven't included NaMo and some others like Rajnath Singh because they are the top leaders).

1. Arun Jaitely - graduate from SRCC, and a law degree holder from DU. And outstanding performer both in academics and extra curricular activities.
2. Sushma Swaraj - youngest ever Cabinet Minister in the country at 25 years of age, then. B.A degree with majors in Sanskrit and Political Science.  LL.B from PU. And yes, a fluent speaker of Sanskrit! 
3. Ravi Shankar Prasad - BA Hons and MA, political science, and LLB. A very strong leader.
4. Jaswant Singh - Previous Indian Army Officer.
5. Meenakshi Lekhi - a very prominent lawyer and a brilliant debater, you can see her on news debates.  She is the ideal for aspiring young politicians.
6. Nirmala Sitaraman - M.Phil in International Studies from JNU. A great speaker and debater.
7. Smriti Irani - no need to mention her details. 

and the list can go on much more. If the government is formed with these people on top, the I seriously think India will rise to a new level.


----------



## theserpent (Aug 28, 2013)

Ohk,But if Bjp stops supporting *THOSE* groups,Then everyone will start supporting them


----------



## gopi_vbboy (Aug 28, 2013)

But the problem with BJP is hypocrisy in stand and lack of unity among leaders.

1.When Modi was against Food security bill, BJP voted for it in LS.Even sushma swaraj
and advani voted for it.

2.Nirmala sitaraman is bjp spokesperson.Her husband is a huge
Pro United Andhra supporter.But her party BJP is supporting telangana! Lol

3.When Modi name was announced, advani created rockus.So did
some other leaders in delhi.

4.As said by Arun shourie, there are two types of leaders.
One is state leader like modi and other are stateless leader like sushma swaraj and advani.
These stateless leader will be challenge for modi.


5.The so called arun jaitley was begged by barkha dutt 
to avoid bringing radia tapes issue in parliament .He did not bring it.
This was said by outlook editor Vinod mehta.




My guess is these stateless leaders of delhi of bjp will be real challenge for Namo become PM rather than Congress or Muslims.


----------



## rishitells (Aug 28, 2013)

gopi_vbboy said:


> My guess is these stateless leaders of delhi of bjp will be real challenge for Namo become PM rather than Congress or Muslims.



Internal fights are everywhere bro, even within families. At least we have a completely democratic party where orders doesn't come from any Italian.  Modi's increasing popularity will gradually lead to resolution of these internal fights, because everyone will finally accept him as the leader. Nobody in BJP will want to lose the chance of winning because of personal interests. The election panel is already set up under NaMo's command, so no fight now.


----------



## KyleSforza (Aug 28, 2013)

shreymittal said:


> Huhh..What
> 
> AFAIK its GOA


Since when Goa became a part of Northern India? 

@Mediator

* Okay
* Okay
* MCD's work
* Okay
* Okay
* Which part has power problems? AND water problem? Only slums areas do, and imho they should have such issues.
* Again, its MCD's job, its MCD which gives permissions to build floors and such and approves them too.

About it being rape and crime capital, didn't I mention Delhi police *DOES NOT* work under the CM but directly the home ministry? 


Now idk why everyone of you wants Modi to be the next big thing but don't forget :
* If Modi was soooo great, people of his state would stay there and not move to Delhi, my neighbours are Gujarati's.
* How can you even forget this? - 2002 Gujarat violence
I honestly would NOT wish to see this happen at a large scale in our country.



Spoiler



*lalitkumar.in/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Qutubuddin_Ansari_Godhra_Riots.jpg *1.bp.blogspot.com/-lLHrRrfuLwk/TWAfT_ESfcI/AAAAAAAACVE/NXLOTaa-GIY/s320/Godhra+Riots1.jpg *www.gujaratriots.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Godhra-1.gif 
*lh6.googleusercontent.com/7t_HOXgev00jIR4ONcjp4x8oBdos8S25uKWIlFTUTA



* Also countries like US have issues with Modi, thus he's a total no for PM.


----------



## Nipun (Aug 28, 2013)

mediator said:


> Do you realize that you generalize and underestimate the driving sense of Delhites? Even metros, buses get overcrowded. Is that also because of driving sense? Please try to understand what I'm talking about. In simple words, we need more flyovers over Yamuna, solutions to "choke points", better model than that ridiculous BRT, borrowed without India and ground level research in mind, causing accidents every year. This is something Shiela could have done easily in her 15 years of "rule".



I am not underestimating their driving sense. Just a few people, the count will hardly go in 3-digits in Delhi drive sensibly. Again, I request you to read and post here if you disagree, as it is OT.
And do you mean to say traffic chokes because of overcrowded buses and metros? 
We may need more flyovers at Yamuna(I do not visit that area frequently), but the only solution to "choke points" is teaching the common man some manners and driving sense.



mediator said:


> Again, I request you too to shed the 'chalta hai attitude'. It is the responsibility of the government to support bodies like MCD, otherwise people will be saying "Soldiers did not fight back and protect India". How can they when centre has tied their hands and offered sticks to fight terrorirsts with Ak-47. You do realize the recent stand off and how Anthony was forced to free Army and take appropriate actions?



This is not _chalta hai_, this is _ye aisa hi rehna hai_. I am unable to relate everything else you wrote to the line you quoted, my bad.


----------



## rishitells (Aug 28, 2013)

KyleSforza said:


> Now idk why everyone of you wants Modi to be the next big thing but don't forget :
> * If Modi was soooo great, people of his state would stay there and not move to Delhi, my neighbours are Gujarati's.



So one only moves to Delhi because his/her state or leader is not 'great'?  Grow up..!



> * Also countries like US have issues with Modi, thus he's a total no for PM.



Who needs a certificate from a foreign country for becoming PM of India? And who told you that US has issues? The most recent news suggests that if Modi applies for US visa, it will be considered according to rules.

Narendra Modi's visa application will be considered if he applies: US

As for riots, kindly go through an earlier post by @mediator to see the list of riots that took place under Congress rule, much more horrible than Godhra.

And why blame Modi? Because he was the CM of Gujrat when riots happened? Excuse me! By that logic, Manmohan Singh, the PM of India is responsible for every single riots that took place in India since 2004! Why such hypocrisy against Modi? Everybody knows what happened in Delhi after Indira Gandhi was shot dead by her bodyguards. Congress openly butchered thousands of Sikhs, without any mercy. Who will heal the wounds of those Sikh families? Who will ensure justice for them? These baboons in government? Do you have any concern over this?

I don't know what affection you've got with the Italian and her puppets, but it's my advice that do some basic research before bragging anything unnecessarily.


----------



## KyleSforza (Aug 28, 2013)

rishitells said:


> So one only moves to Delhi because his/her state or leader is not 'great'?  Grow up..!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Telling me to grow up and forgot about what his friend said.

Using your logic, how can you blame Sheila for so many rapes in Delhi? 

And I can say the same about you, you feel attracted towards Modi? Wanna be his gay buddy or something?


----------



## Hrishi (Aug 28, 2013)

Hey , post those images within spoiler tags man.


----------



## mediator (Aug 28, 2013)

Nipun said:
			
		

> I am not underestimating their driving sense. Just a few people, the count will hardly go in 3-digits in Delhi drive sensibly. Again, I request you to read and post here if you disagree, as it is OT.
> And do you mean to say traffic chokes because of overcrowded buses and metros?
> We may need more flyovers at Yamuna(I do not visit that area frequently), but the only solution to "choke points" is teaching the common man some manners and driving sense.


I think you really don't understand the concept of 'choke points'. I'll still try though. 

Imagine there is school of 10000 students and catches fire all around and there is a small corridor which can also catch fire. Do you think, if the students behave and walk in a civilized manner, can they, escape from the fire? What is solution, if in your humble opinion, they can't? Trust me, at 6-7 pm not many people coming from office have the energy to fight, show off or drive in an uncivilized way.

I surrender, if you still don't understand.



			
				Nipun said:
			
		

> This is not chalta hai, this is ye aisa hi rehna hai. I am unable to relate everything else you wrote to the line you quoted, my bad.


Pessimism is not a correct answer to the discussion we are in!



			
				KyleSforza said:
			
		

> Which part has power problems? AND water problem? Only slums areas do, and imho they should have such issues.


I don't think you live in Delhi. Almost all parts of Delhi have power problems! I'm unable to understand why Shiela with her 15 years of rule cannot handle a small area like Delhi? And then we are comparing Shiela to Modi, who has set Solar power, Wind power projects, made efficient utilization of water resources, providing surplus power to the North India when Northern grid failed recently with blackout in entire Delhi, and still trying to perfect the entire Gujarat.

Delhi powerless over grid shortage - Hindustan Times

Statistics apart, you need to trust a Delhite like me to realize power shortage exists in Delhi and is still a big problem.



			
				KyleSforza said:
			
		

> About it being rape and crime capital, didn't I mention Delhi police DOES NOT work under the CM but directly the home ministry?


So whose responsibility is Delhi? Shiela's or Home Ministry? Doesn't the onus lie on Shiela to talk to Home Ministry even if I agree with your statement? Both are of same party unlike Water logging in Delhi where MCD is not supported by Delhi government often!



			
				KyleSForza said:
			
		

> f Modi was soooo great, people of his state would stay there and not move to Delhi, my neighbours are Gujarati's.


Have some empathy and brotherhood for the rest of the Indians please. Its not as if Gujaratis come to Delhi only. A lot of Delhities go to Gujarat for work. 12 years to Modi and with each passing moment Gujarat's business is on the rise and lauded for its international standards. Obviously, he is not a God. Perhaps, you should question the same for Amethi (Sonia) and Rai bareliiy (Amul Baby) and its status regarding jobs, infrastructure and development! Delhi and Mumbai have been a capital for national and international activties since ages. Naturally, they'll be having more influx, jobs etc! Had it been Gandhinagar, you wouldn't be saying the same thing then.



			
				KyleSForza said:
			
		

> I honestly would NOT wish to see this happen at a large scale in our country.


Then we should stop electing people who do politics, reservation, quota based on religion in a secular Nation! I have not idea why you are posting wikipedia as a source where your answers have already been given in my post #50. 

But still just to repeat, I need your review and comments on this. PLease read -

1.  Cong silent on cadres linked to Guj riots - Times Of India

2. 



			
				Riots said:
			
		

> (1) 1964 Communal riots in Rourkela & Jamshedpur | 2000 Killed | Ruling party CONG
> 
> 
> 
> ...



3. A detailed analysis -> | Gujarat Riots: The True Story    <= Please read this carefully, otherwise I would be burdening the digit forum with serious deconditionings!!


4. And ask the same question to you as well. Who are you to associate Modi with Gujarat riots when SIT committe itself and higher courts have given a clean chit to Modi, unlike the case of Congress in 1984 riots? Are you above the courts or SIT committee?

Regarding the photos you posted. It was debunked in local newspapers long time back. But here if you missed -> Myth 12: The photo of Qutubuddin Ansari is genuine | Gujarat Riots: The True Story

5. Do you know who killed the 58 karsevaks, 48 of whom were women and children and why?

If you seriously do not wish to see this happen at a large scale in our country, then goto the root cause of the problems. Discuss what the religious books are teaching you. Give them benefit of doubt and research again from different authors and different explanations. Identify what is being discussed in Madrassas, why reservation is being given in the name of religion, what is secularism, where it started and why and actively voice against unrighteous activities instead of ignoring it.



			
				KyleSForza said:
			
		

> * Also countries like US have issues with Modi, thus he's a total no for PM.


Again just to repeat, what has US to do with elections in India? What issues exactly? FYI, Modi never applied for Visa! Perhaps, in future Visa might be given as well. But what about  Amul Baby who is still is wanted in US when he was caught red handed at boston airport with unexplained cash and daughter of druglord!

I repeat, Visa certificate is like an inferiority complex. I don't see any greatness in a US visa. UK is supporting Modi. Is it any lesser?



Modi: "We will make India into a mighty nation where Americans will line up to apply for an Indian Visa"!!

We need such leaders, with such robust thinking, not ones who drool over US visa.

Please watch -> Nidhi Razdan being ripped apart by British MP Barry Gardiner - YouTube



View attachment 11970


----------



## snap (Aug 28, 2013)

do you really think india will prosper with such a nonsecular party?


----------



## mediator (Aug 28, 2013)

Let me do a briefing. 

Secularism rose in Europe to draw a line between Church and progress of the state, so that the Church does not interfere in the progress of the state. Biblical framework taught flat earth theory, Earth Being the centre of the universe and Universe being created on 4004 BC 9 am, Tuesday! For this everywhere Biblical framework was seen as a frame of reference and hence when Max Muller arrived in India, he taught Rigveda cannot be older than the Bible and gave a date 1500 BC.

Watch -> Dwarka, India - 12,000 Year Old City of Lord Krishna Found - *Full* - YouTube

Many recent surveys are only debunking the claims of earlier indologists and western historians where the history of India was undermined and ignored where it is said that if India is explored, then it might change the entire world's history!

Back again, Galileo was threatened for questioning the Church as he was of a scientific mindset. Same goes for Princess Hypatia, a mathematician and a philosopher.

Remember, philosophy and religion are poles apart for philosophy is the mother of science and questioning the Abrahamic lords is considered a blasphemy, often leading to death in the earlier ADs and even till now. With the advent of Secularism, asking religion was banned during school interviews, academics, job applications etc.

The questions you need to ask is 

1. if India has blindly borrowed a western idea of secularism, then why is religion, cast etc asked in jobs applications, entrance exams etc?

2. Why reservation is being given based on religion in a so called "secular country"?

3. Muslims must have first claim on resources: PM - Times Of India

4. Why a special privilege given to a certain group whose population is 20% of the National one and 2nd highest in the world and still called a minority?


Further, regarding secularism, it is applicable to the lands where religion suppresses the freedom of people and their indivduality and imposes and common boring code of conduct! But in India, we never had terms lie Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism etc.

Who divided the Indians as "Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs" for all these (mahavira, buddha, 10 gurus of sikh, 1000s of rishis for Upanishads/Veda/Puranas/Tantras) are gurus orginating from India? Even before these gurus, there existed many other gurus like Parashuram, Dronacharya, Kripacharya? Have we ever heard of terms like Dronacharyaism, Parashuramaism etc? Have we heard of Aurobindoism, Vivekanandism, SriSri Ravishankrism? 

You can't help but laugh at the utter stupidity of a mindset who created these terminologies, mapped them as "religion" and those who blindly followed without questioning it. 

Buddha was adored for questioning the corrupt practices of those who called themselves as Brahmins, practiced by birth system, distorted Vedic Science wrapped in the layers of metaphors, riddles and poetry, literally to cows and horses and then practicing animal killing in the name of Vedas. He wasn't burnt or killed like Galileo and Princess Hypatia and the women who practiced science and were called as witches!

Vedic science, administration, music, creativity, military is a part of one great knowledge where questioning your own beliefs was considered as primary and Atma-gyaan (self-realization based on perfect mind control and detachment from actions while still performing actions) were the ideals. Is Secularism even applicable to such Indian working? 

The greatness of the Indian science makes secularism look like a joke where the terms 'Hindu Dharma', 'Buddha dharma' sound like oxymorons! Imagine tomorrow people saying 'Aurobindo dharma', 'Vivekananda dharma', 'Ravishankar Dharma'. You can only laugh!

Difference between Religion and Dharma, for starters : Dharma and Religion -


Back to square one : What is a secular party and why is teaching of the Indian history and pro-India sentiments seen as communal?


----------



## snap (Aug 28, 2013)

but can they treat every religion equally and not just support one and suppress the others?


----------



## mediator (Aug 29, 2013)

snap said:
			
		

> but can they treat every religion equally and not just support one and suppress the others?


I have never seen Modi talking about Islamic or Hindu terrorism, or Hindu or Islam etc. He only says one thing : "Mere 6 crore Gujarati"

There is Modi for PM page on FB with latest updates about Modi and Gujarat, something not shown by the paid media.

India is a country which openly welcomed the invaders who initially came with a message of peace. Vasudaiv kutumbakam is an Vedic experience which lacks religion, cast etc but only sees the people according to their nature and their profession.

Brahmin - Teachers, Doctors, Engineers etc
KShatriyas - Soldiers, Warriors,
Vaishyas - Business class
Shudras - People involved with lower jobs

Secularism cannot take priority over India herself. India involves Indian history, Indian art, Indian creativity, Indian science etc. Therefore, to appease a section of society called as "minority", one cannot undermine that Indianness! Surprisingly, this promotion of Indianness is what is being projected as communal and people becoming a subject of inferiority complex and dumbfound cowardice where they fear to talk and promote that Indianness with their muslims friend in discussion thinking he might feel bad.

Like I asked, how can teaching of Gita, a science of consciousness, an Indian science be communal? Like I said, secularism is for religion, not for creativity, philosophy and science (Vedic poetry, Upanishadic riddles, Bhagvad-Geet, higher science presented in the form of idols and puranic stories) 

You need to identify who is associated with religion, who imposes a boring code of conduct? If that violates subjective creativity and individuality, then that should be banned! You need to ask, if that religion is supressing others or not? Secularism doesn't mean appeasement, it doesn't mean sycophancying with those demanding their own code of conduct, a separate land, a separate reservation tag. Such activity is anti-national and needs to be dealt seriously.

Your question is based on improper understanding of the term religion and secularism. But, I'd request you to give the Nationalist, pro-India parties a chance instead of Congress and gather as much knowledge about Congress history, terms like secularism and religion.

Anwyays,

"The Messiahs of Muslims, Congress Govt and a Congress MP in Rajsthan – For demolishing a 400 year old mosque, that too for petty commercial gains & not for the sake of correcting history. Hearing a plea which alleges that a Jindal group firm illegally demolished a 16th century mosque in Rajasthan in collusion with the State Government to facilitate mining operations, the Supreme Court on Monday sought a response from the Centre, news portal NitiCentral.com reported today."

400 years old mosque demolished in Rajasthan by Jindal, SC issues notices to Centre, Jindal


Whats your view?


----------



## snap (Aug 29, 2013)

well my question was not directed only towards him but also at bjp and its underlings, and i did not say that congress is some saviour, its like choosing between lesser of the two evils


----------



## funskar (Aug 29, 2013)

KyleSforza said:


> Now idk why everyone of you wants Modi to be the next big thing but don't forget :
> * If Modi was soooo great, people of his state would stay there and not move to Delhi, my neighbours are Gujarati's.
> * How can you even forget this? - 2002 Gujarat violence
> I honestly would NOT wish to see this happen at a large scale in our country.
> ...




First of all tell are you a diaper wearing boy even after you r adult ...

Is there any law that people can't move from his state to other or if you want to move then get a permission first from your state CM..

Answer this quest it's similar to your 1st * point ..
If you get a job outside or transfer & you have to go away from your parent's then should i say that you are sick/crap ..

For riot's do you have full proof that modi was 100% the culprit if yes then go file a PIL in supreme court .. 
the main culprit who lighted the fire which result was 2002 is named haji bilal ..



KyleSforza said:


> * Also countries like US have issues with Modi, thus he's a total no for PM.


First of all keep these sh*t 2002 riot out because there are tons of riot done by congress/spj/ms/as & all are under the bag..
And why always keep one man scolding for the one reason..

It's really shameless for indians like you who thinks if US has issues with the guy then he is a big no..
Go tell your girlfriend's and sister's a total no as they are big fans of srk who always been treated like a threat whenever he land's at US airport.


----------



## KyleSforza (Aug 29, 2013)

mediator said:


> I don't think you live in Delhi. Almost all parts of Delhi have power problems! I'm unable to understand why Shiela with her 15 years of rule cannot handle a small area like Delhi? And then we are comparing Shiela to Modi, who has set Solar power, Wind power projects, made efficient utilization of water resources, providing surplus power to the North India when Northern grid failed recently with blackout in entire Delhi, and still trying to perfect the entire Gujarat.
> 
> Delhi powerless over grid shortage - Hindustan Times
> 
> Statistics apart, you need to trust a Delhite like me to realize power shortage exists in Delhi and is still a big problem.


LOL Wat? I was born in Delhi dude, and my ancestors had been living here since as far as I remember.

And honestly, last 7 years I haven't faced ANY major power shortages, max 6 hours in total a year, or rarely 6 hours in a single day even when they are working on the transformers.

Not sure if you live on the outskirts and call yourself a Delhiite, but I live in North Delhi and there are no such major issues here EXCEPT for slum areas.

@Funkar

I don't give a damn **** about SRK, he isn't going to lead my country or my city, or even a small village. But I do care who leads the country, I for one ofcourse don't want Manmohan Singh as PM anymore but I can't accept Modi either as BJP comes with him.

Even if Manmohan Singh is to be picked again, my hands are tied as Delhi belongs to Sheila and honestly I and every true Delhiite believes that she's doing tremendous work here.

While modi might be a vaccine, BJP is a curse to India.

The only way I'd vote for someone else in Delhi is very controversial, that is ONLY and ONLY if they limit the migration of people from other states to our Delhi. Like people from other states require a Visa or such to come to Delhi, its very much needed as of late.


----------



## theserpent (Aug 29, 2013)

We don't need leaders that say we will do this and that.
What leaders we need are that actually have done something in the past and still do what they promise.
Like in the campaign, how Marty gave the speech


----------



## mediator (Aug 29, 2013)

KyleSForza said:
			
		

> And honestly, last 7 years I haven't faced ANY major power shortages, max 6 hours in total a year, or rarely 6 hours in a single day even when they are working on the transformers.



Please read 

Delhi seeks Centre’s help to tide over power shortage | Day & Night News



			
				news said:
			
		

> Localities in East and North Delhi have been worst affected. Officials in power department said Union Power Ministry has already been requested to help Delhi in overcoming the situation. According to the city government, the situation has become more difficult due to overdrawing of huge amount of power from Northern Grid by Uttar Pradesh, which is forcing the city to resort to load-shedding to maintain frequency of the grid.




Delhi's power supply hit

South and West Delhi reel under severe power cuts | Day & Night News

When Northern Grid failed it caused a blackout for almost 3 days

The requirements increases the most in peak winters and peak summers where power failures happen almost every day! So 6 hours of power failure on last 7 years? That might be true had you lived in 7 RCR or Rashtrapati Bhavan. But perhaps you are confusing the constant power supply in your house with the generators and inverters you might have installed. Anyways,



			
				KyleSForza said:
			
		

> Even if Manmohan Singh is to be picked again, my hands are tied as Delhi belongs to Sheila and honestly I and *every true Delhiite believes that she's doing tremendous work here*


Perhaps your definition of true Delhite means Congress loyalists, sycophants and anti-nationals. But I being a delhite truly believe that she is eating her food for free, a lady who has gotten rusty and does not know what to do. It would be better had she resigned and let some active people take over, move around the city and see the situation for themselves.

So Sheila cannot coordinate with MCD professionally, cannot persuage Home Ministry to provide better protection to women in Delhi and reduce crime, cannot ask to remove illegal Bangladeshi settlements, in 15 years cannot open up parallel flyovers and reduce the choke points, cannot clean Yamuna, cannot clean the begging nuisance at every red light (Anyone for Indian image here perceived by foreigners?), implements a killer BRT and Dwarika Flyover with oter infrastructure development at a snails pace and makes frivolous statements like Rs 600 enough for a family of 5 and during Soumya Vishwanathan case says "Girlss shouldn't be adventurous at night".

Even during CWG the stadium infrastructure fell and Army had to be called in.

So what does Sheila really do?  




			
				gopi_vbboy said:
			
		

> 4 ppl voted rahul gandhi in thread poll ? seriously?


They want a Amul Baby who says
- I'm ashamed of being an Indian
- Ignores LeT and diverts to "Hindu terrorism"
- Cannot read a report which said "70% of drug addicts are youth in Punjab" and reads it as "70% of Punjabi youths are drug addicts"
- Says India is like a beehive
- Was missing during Uttarakhand Floods and celebrating his "birthday" in Sweden/Spain
- Was partying after 26/11
- Missing during Ramdev and Anna's Anshan
- Thinks Gujarat is bigger than UK and India bigger than UK and US.
- Lost elections wherever he contested till now

In short Missing whenever nation needs him and then his minions come out their holes and explain what he actually meant! Raul Vinci, has he quit his Italian citizenship? IMO, he is slap, a joke, an exception to the human intellect.

Really 4 people voted for Rahul Gandhi, the prince charming!  ThinkDigit is really booming with intellectual people.


----------



## heidi2521 (Aug 29, 2013)

Rahul Gandhi is a state of mind.


----------



## funskar (Aug 29, 2013)

KyleSforza said:


> LOL Wat? I was born in Delhi dude, and my ancestors had been living here since as far as I remember.
> 
> And honestly, last 7 years I haven't faced ANY major power shortages, max 6 hours in total a year, or rarely 6 hours in a single day even when they are working on the transformers.
> 
> ...



You looks to be noobart again a noob point .. i have got only 6 hours power cut in a year..
And Isn't a lady at reputed post like sheila should dance on honey singh's non veg songs at hilton ..

Do you know that about your sheila madam ..

And sheila is same like sonia
sonia- rahul-robert
sheila-sandip
cwg scam ...

You have to give damn about srk becuase ur sisters gf  watch his films .. First go & stop them from watching his films.. then do write sh*t that Us has issues with  etc..
And all of fellow countrymen's will not think that a guy who judge's pm for his country after a clean chit from US or a big no if US has issues do care for his country ...
Just grow up re ..



KyleSforza said:


> The only way I'd vote for someone else in Delhi is very controversial, that is ONLY and ONLY if they limit the migration of people from other states to our Delhi. Like people from other states require a Visa or such to come to Delhi, its very much needed as of late



You are acting like raj thakrey .. 
A visa  for indians to move from one to another state in their own country.. 
You look's like really a 18yr old adult who still wear's diaper ..


----------



## rhitwick (Aug 29, 2013)

mediator said:


> So back to quote-by-quote
> 
> @Rhitwick - There is a reason, why almost entire developed community/countries, business and people want Modi and admire Modi. You ask what about 15 years of Modi, I say he created a diamond out of some coal which was earlier mostly ruled by Congress. Same situation in MP, where Gujarat has become an exporter of food, energy and good jobs, people enjoying a flourishing river which was given in an almost dead state to him.


Let me tell you one thing Modi is to Gujrat what Chandrababu Naidu was to Andhra. Only urban development. No rural development. Benefits to businessmen only.



> Its not about Sonia's "debits and credits" only, but why exactly Sonia went to US and Swiss during Anna's and Ramdev's anshan, what did she do


I don't see the point here. Why do you want to know so badly what she did there?
If Sonia's travel to US and Sweden is so crucial to you, why not file a RTI?



> why doesn't she discloses her IT returns?


RTI.



> Even Obama doesn't enjoy such a freedom in the name of freedom and democracy.


Meaningless point. One side you do not want USA's approval for Modi's superiority on the other hand you compare Sonia to Obama. No fair.



> We really do not know anything about her, her Amul Baby, her daughter, her Damaad, their education status, verification of it, do they still have Italian citizenship. Do you know why she had to quit her earlier PM post?


So, ask. Get your queries addressed. 
If you want an autobiography of Sonia along with her children, I'm not sure they are writing one yet.
Apart from the mockery. I again don't see the point of these question here. Could you please explain what all aspects you want to be enlightened about Sonia and her children and relatives.
And, do you think you have rights to know that. Do you think any of your question might invade their privacy?




> Don't you think its a high time we should stop conniving with the "chalta hai attitude" and an excuse "If they did, so let others do it as well"?


Not "Chalta Hai" but an example that everyone used CBI when in power. BJP did nothing different when it was in power. So, the point you raised 'Congress controlling CBI' is invalid and you just can't claim it would be resolved if BJP comes to power again, irrespective of the person in PM's chair.




> Talking about farmer's suicides - Has it reduced or grown? If grown by how much? Why farmer committed suicides? Showing simple statistics does not mean much. For that matter here are the statistics for Maharasthra and Andhra, the leader in farmer suicides.
> 
> Farm suicide trends in 2012 remain dismal - The Hindu
> 
> Do note the year, which governments were in power. Whether they were elected newly or stayed for some years when this was reported.


Again, not debating if less or more. It was mentioned just to prove everything isn't that good in Gujraat too. Gujraat is as suffered by issues as any other state in the country.



> Please list the scams where Modi is in power.


No info on that. May be you are right.



> Perhaps you can list scams with BJP then and I will list you the scams when SOnia is the head of Party, MMS is the PM and Amul Baby the VP/General secretary.
> 
> Lesser evil? So be it! Lets analyze.


"Lesser evil"...I'm right, am I not?
Modi is just CM of a certain state. When in power he would be controlled by BJP governing body.
I still remember in times of Bajpayee, Bajpayee to had to apologize for criticizing BJP. Similar thing would happen with Modi. Mark my word today. 



> You hate Modi perhaps because of his arrogance and I hate MMS for his cowardice, silence and lack of understanding of grass root level and reality. MMS, Monetk and Chidambaram... who really still believes that an "oxford certificate" can save India? Rather, I like Modi because of his arrogance, provocations towards Congress something we see in use against China, Pakistan etc as well. A leader needs to tough and take decisive actions unlike a Maun-vrati PM who needs to consult the Italians on every matter. What do Congress do, (Salman Khurshid) -> "I would love to live in Beijing". Instead of developing your own country, you eat it like a termite and insult it abroad? Yes Modi doesn't need a Visa, nor he ever applied for one like media  keeps on glorifying it like a certificate. But he will create Visas for Americans and thats the attitude we need.


In this bolded part, I guess you posted just as a figure-of-speech but really…Americans really need VISAs to enter India. 


> Thinking of which, I guess, Amul Baby is stil is wanted in US when he was caught red handed at boston airport with unexplained cash and daughter of druglord!


And, no ‘wanted in India’ netas in BJP?
Again, not a competition on owns most of such netas rather just to point out none is as pure as they claim to be.



> Yes, 26/11 happened, Intelligence warnings were given, but ignored. Which govt/party was in centre and state? Similarly Uttarakhand floods happened repeated warnings were given to the Congress govt. Why did not the take appropriate measures? Amar Jawan in Mumbai was destroyed and hundreds of "secular" people according to the definition of Congress, cam with weapons and went away. No charges, no imprisonments!


Kargil happened at whose leadership?
Kandahar flight abduction?
Again, no competition just to point out none is spared of failure. 
Till date I’m not convinced if BJP with Modi as PM is a proper alternative to Congress in power.



> Regarding Gujarat riots, who started the riots? Why congress ignored the role of its own cadres? => Cong silent on cadres linked to Guj riots - Times Of India
> 
> So I compared to Godhra, listed Congress's role in it and came back to question you to who are you to call Modi a killer when SIT committe itself and higher courts have given a clean chit to Modi, unlike the case of Congress in 1984 riots? Are you above the courts or SIT committee?


On one hand you don’t trust CBI raids and enquiries and blame them controlled by Congress and on the other hand you defend Modi’s innocence with report of a committee of same Govt. Why?
I don’t trust CBI nor the SIT. The case is still unresolved


If you seriously do not wish to see this happen at a large scale in our country, then goto the root cause of the problems. Discuss what the religious books are teaching you. Give them benefit of doubt and research again from different authors and different explanations. Identify what is being discussed in Madrassas, why reservation is being given in the name of religion, what is secularism, where it started and why and actively voice against unrighteous activities instead of ignoring it.



mediator said:


> Let me do a briefing.
> 
> Secularism rose in Europe to draw a line between Church and progress of the state, so that the Church does not interfere in the progress of the state. Biblical framework taught flat earth theory, Earth Being the centre of the universe and Universe being created on 4004 BC 9 am, Tuesday! For this everywhere Biblical framework was seen as a frame of reference and hence when Max Muller arrived in India, he taught Rigveda cannot be older than the Bible and gave a date 1500 BC.
> 
> ...


You know “Baba Saheb Ambedkar” is the burning example that the so called Indian knowledge and ‘atma-gyaan’ was a failure.
A particular group of people were getting benefits where few were being crushed as ever.
Why do you think our constitution is not based on any religion or texts of any ancient scriptures? And, India always had this diversity of people of different beliefs. 
This diversity was not created by some outsiders. It was there, always. 
To rule India whichever party is in power must and must respect and all people equal. It does not matter if a certain kind of religion is having majority here or a certain kind as minority.
And, we had had a great debate on caste and reservation in TDF ago. Please don’t start that here again. Reservation was not started that easily and won’t be abolished just because ‘YOU’ don’t find any logic in it.
There are people who are being benefitted by the reservation system.
And, one phrase I found you used here “….boring code of conduct…”. Its very dangerous thought process. You just can’t ignore law just because it seems ‘boring’ and meaningless to ‘YOU’. A law is not created just by someone’s whim, in a democracy like India its passed with everyone’s agreement and with much debate.



mediator said:


> I have never seen Modi talking about Islamic or Hindu terrorism, or Hindu or Islam etc. He only says one thing : "Mere 6 crore Gujarati"
> 
> There is Modi for PM page on FB with latest updates about Modi and Gujarat, something not shown by the paid media.


Yeah, and there is Feku Claims | FekuExpress too. 
Someone is lying here, right?



> India is a country which openly welcomed the invaders who initially came with a message of peace. Vasudaiv kutumbakam is an Vedic experience which lacks religion, cast etc but only sees the people according to their nature and their profession.
> 
> Brahmin - Teachers, Doctors, Engineers etc
> KShatriyas - Soldiers, Warriors,
> ...


I beg to differ here.
You are telling the scriptures were written keeping ‘India’ in mind. This is not Indianness. You just can’t point out and say this particular thing is from original and ancient India. When ‘India’ was not invaded by any other race. This particular scripture or ritual is pure Indian. You can’t, you know. 
Why? Because at that time there was no ‘India’. India is a new concept. The nation was not even in its preset from. The maps and territories marked for different countries were different then.
Refer here : The Formation of India:
(You are free to read the whole text but I would recommend you to start from para 4)
After each invasion the then country got rich by new cultures. New people and new religious beliefs. For a long time ‘India’ has walked with different people of different beliefs. In modern it was really required to give equal rights to everyone.
Talking about any particular religion is not bad. But bragging and claiming it’s the best is not proper.



> Like I asked, how can teaching of Gita, a science of consciousness, an Indian science be communal? Like I said, secularism is for religion, not for creativity, philosophy and science (Vedic poetry, Upanishadic riddles, Bhagvad-Geet, higher science presented in the form of idols and puranic stories)


Teachings of Gita are not communal but if that’s the only thing you teach then its communal. If you want to teach scriptures of a particular religion why not include all.
Bible, Buddhism texts etc.
Basically refer all these Religious text - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Introduce all these in teaching. Don’t play favorites. If its teaching why not teach everything and let the disciples chose what to follow.



> it doesn't mean sycophancying with those demanding their own code of conduct, a separate land, a separate reservation tag.


That happened only one time. And those who were responsible for deciding India’s fate agreed to that. I wish that does not repeat.
And in present situation it won’t happen. 
And, if any such incident happen if Modi is in Power, how do you think Modi would handle it. Like he did in Gujraat?
A PM can’t play favorites. No, he can’t.
He, and if not ‘he’ the party must have a secular mindset.



mediator said:


> > Really 4 people voted for Rahul Gandhi, the prince charming!  ThinkDigit is really booming with intellectual people.
> 
> 
> There were only those three options!
> ...


----------



## lakeport (Aug 29, 2013)

why do people have a problwm with BJP? Do you realize that without the collective efforts of all BJP members, there'd be no narendra modi?


----------



## Nipun (Aug 29, 2013)

mediator said:


> I think you really don't understand the concept of 'choke points'. I'll still try though.
> 
> Imagine there is school of 10000 students and catches fire all around and there is a small corridor which can also catch fire. Do you think, if the students behave and walk in a civilized manner, can they, escape from the fire? What is solution, if in your humble opinion, they can't? *Trust me, at 6-7 pm not many people coming from office have the energy to fight, show off or drive in an uncivilized way.*


 
This can't be India. You do know, by "civilized" I mean driving in lanes, following traffic signals etc. I guess you mistook "uncivilized" for drifting, racing etc. There maybe some such points, I'm unaware of that but the fact remains the same that is most(if not all) jams are created because we Indians cannot drive.



mediator said:


> I surrender, if you still don't understand.


Sorry I don't understand 1+1 = 4. :/



mediator said:


> Pessimism is not a correct answer to the discussion we are in!


Baseless hope is?

Edit: I'm sure you haven't seen that link.


----------



## KyleSforza (Aug 29, 2013)

funskar said:


> You looks to be noobart again a noob point .. i have got only 6 hours power cut in a year..
> And Isn't a lady at reputed post like sheila should dance on honey singh's non veg songs at hilton ..
> 
> Do you know that about your sheila madam ..
> ...



Take a look at your posts and mine, we'll find out who needs to adapt a mature behaviour. 

You can't even spell man..

And neither my gf nor any of my sisters are interested in watching SRK films  

Okay those people who are against Congress in Delhi tell me, who do you think would be perfect for the job? There's NO ONE, No one who can replace her!

And I honestly would LOVE it if someone from Thakrey family runs for the Delhi CM


----------



## mediator (Aug 29, 2013)

@Rhitiwck -

I don't know if you have been watching CNN-IBN and NDTV kind of news channels (named in CAG report on CWG) but Gujarat is close to achieving an all round growth. It is not only urban but also rural and growth of muslims often shown in bad light by the media.

Read this -> Media blind to Gujarat



			
				news said:
			
		

> “This translates into people in rural areas of these states having less amount of disposable income to buy food or other necessities as against those in Gujarat.
> 
> Moreover, in terms of the income of the bottom 20% people (consumers with the lowest income) of the income pyramid too, Gujarat fared well compared to other large states.
> 
> ...




If you really think nobody filed an RTI to for Sonia's IT returns, then I guess missed another peace of important news. Read this -> Sonia Gandhi cites privacy, refuses to disclose info on I-T returns - Times Of India



			
				RTI_News said:
			
		

> Chennai-based RTI activist V Gopalakrishnan had sought details of her I-T returns from the year 2000-2001 to 2010-2011. The assistant commissioner of income tax, New Delhi, who is also the chief public information officer (CPIO), wrote to the UPA chairperson on January 23 as per Section 11 of the RTI Act, 2005, seeking her response to the application. In her reply, Sonia said disclosure of such private information to third parties in guise of transparency in public life would amount to unwarranted invasion of the individual's privacy. The information submitted to the I-T department by an individual was confidential and private in nature and cannot be disclosed as per Section 138 of the Income Tax Act, 1961, she said.



So basically Sonia wants IT returns of Ramdev, Anna Hazare, Kejriwal or anyone who oppose her to be on public display, but she cannot respect RTI when she is on the receiving end?



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Meaningless point. One side you do not want USA's approval for Modi's superiority on the other hand you compare Sonia to Obama. No fair.


On one hand Obama is the head of the world's strongest country and his whereabouts are not private and SOnia is not even the head of Nation but party and still her whereabouts are private most of the times? It is not about Modi's superiority, but hypocricy of UPA govt! On the other hand, US Visa certificate is toally different issue, which I'm suprised that people find it "a factor" for National elections. But personally I want a leader who shall make Indian into a diamond where American would line for an Indian Visa! The points are totally different and not something to be tried through the same prism.



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Not "Chalta Hai" but an example that everyone used CBI when in power. BJP did nothing different when it was in power. So, the point you raised 'Congress controlling CBI' is invalid and you just can't claim it would be resolved if BJP comes to power again, irrespective of the person in PM's chair.


I haven't seen a situation under BJP where CBI and other bodies are used against people who voice for the Nation (Anna, Ramdev etc). Can you please tell all the cases that you know of where CBI is used by BJP against its opponents and common man more importantly? Can you tell if BJP committed a scam and used CBI to manipulate evidence (e.g Coalgate) or where BJP used CBI to draw support on Bill (e.g CBi against SP on foodbill?)? 

I would really like to know the extent of misuse of CBI under BJP.




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Again, not debating if less or more. It was mentioned just to prove everything isn't that good in Gujraat too. Gujraat is as suffered by issues as any other state in the country.


You don't understand the gravity of the situation. You talked about RTI, I gave RTI. You talked about rural, I gave news about rural. You talked about farmers suicide I talked of it as well as to which state showed a decreases and which state recorded the highest. Obviously, there will be issues in Gujarat, issues which can never be completely erased like crime and perhaps farmers suicides. Like I told reasons can be many like crop failure, loan non-payment, stress etc.

The lesser of the two evils you speak and yet you support Amul Baby who cannot speak anything at all heading a party who rules only to commit scams and communal riots, andhra and Mahrasthra with the highest number of farmer suicides?



			
				rhitiwck said:
			
		

> Modi is just CM of a certain state. When in power he would be controlled by BJP governing body.
> I still remember in times of Bajpayee, Bajpayee to had to apologize for criticizing BJP. Similar thing would happen with Modi. Mark my word today.


Right now it is not BJP who is controlling Modi, but vice versa! If you see through my eyes, its not even Modi who is controlling BJP, but a collective consciousness of people who see a star, someone who can do and trust he will do and hence have created a certain expectation that BJP has been forced to promote Modi which in turn has given added responsibility to Modi who is just trying to do his duties corresponding to those responsibilities (If you understand Bhagvada-Gita, you'd understand what I'm talking about - selfless service without any 'I'). No my friend Modi doesn't work for money (for he doesn't have much), he also left his family long time back but he still meets them, he doesn't want a US visa for never applied for one, like I said and you ignored, he is just a wanderer who is doing selfless service to the Nation as it comes and as people expect from him!



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> In this bolded part, I guess you posted just as a figure-of-speech but really…Americans really need VISAs to enter India


You truly underestimate your own country. Just calcuate the Indian money in Swiss alone and then add the development and proper renovation of Indian sites (temples, architectures etc) which are spread in thousands of different places and not given the attention they deserve. You have taken India for granted for her miseries and US for her fancies. You have no idea what India can become!



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> And, no ‘wanted in India’ netas in BJP?
> Again, not a competition on owns most of such netas rather just to point out none is as pure as they claim to be.



Thats why its time to install Modi. Why else do you think netas in BJP alone don't want Modi?



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Kargil happened at whose leadership?
> Kandahar flight abduction?
> Again, no competition just to point out none is spared of failure.
> Till date I’m not convinced if BJP with Modi as PM is a proper alternative to Congress in power.


I think you are just trying to debate unnecessarily now. How can Kargil be BJP's fault? Vajpayee went to Pak with friendship in mind and they gave us Kargil. IC-814 was hijacked, what else should the government do? Not free and let the 300 people get killed? I don't even understand how this is related to BJP or Congress let alone Modi!



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> On one hand you don’t trust CBI raids and enquiries and blame them controlled by Congress and on the other hand you defend Modi’s innocence with report of a committee of same Govt. Why?
> I don’t trust CBI nor the SIT. The case is still unresolved


My lack of trust in CBI is because of its history of misuse and there is a difference between SIT and CBI. Please research on it. Here is a difference just for you as I'm surprised you view them as usual with the same yardstick

1. SIT was setup by Supreme Court and answerable only to SC. It is NOT a report of the same government as your ignorantly point out.
2. CBI is government controlled body and hence manipulated by Congress during Coalgate Case, even when SC had given strict orders to share the report only with IT and not government! The misuse happens every month now as Congress is shitting in its pant every here and there now.

The difference is obvious!



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> You know “Baba Saheb Ambedkar” is the burning example that the so called Indian knowledge and ‘atma-gyaan’ was a failure.
> A particular group of people were getting benefits where few were being crushed as ever.
> Why do you think our constitution is not based on any religion or texts of any ancient scriptures? And, India always had this diversity of people of different beliefs.
> This diversity was not created by some outsiders. It was there, always.
> ...


I have no idea why you go after the certificate & opinions of the other people often instead of understanding the concept through your own primary frame of reference, but anyways,  Ambedkar's opinion means nothing to me for he never read the scriptures or practiced the same depth as he did with other sciences or education. About reservation, do one favour and goto government hospitals and get yourself operated by a reserved category doctor the next time!

Do you even know politicians ask for doctor's tag when they visit hospital? Yes, from my sources, Ram Vilas Paswan is an example who doesn't want to get operated from a SC/ST/OBC doctor but by a general category doctor! The reasons are obvious. 

A boring code of conduct is one which imposes a same set of ideals and doesn't let people question and philosophise or promote creativity of all kinds. It is again surprising that you find my thought process to be "dangerous". Can you ever define life, if all the men did the same thing? Its the diversity which defines life and diversity which needs to be promotes.

I'm not against teaching of Quran etc in school. But the teaching of Indian history, science and creativity is the birthright of all the Indians to know the secrets and treasures that her mother left for her. Its not only the teachings, but thorough research, questioning, expanding, dissecting, understanding and knowing of these (Quran, Gita, Upanishads, Bible etc) should be done. 

But are you sure as a teacher you'd be spared if you even discuss the life of Mohammed and question Allah in the school?? You need to think about it.

On one hand you verify that you have read my debates earlier and on other you state such nuisance ( that I stated about some best religion ). When did I say anything about best of any religion? I have clearly mentioned at all times, HInduism, Jainism, Buddhism etc are not religions but one family from India promoting the same science of consciousness - be it the 7 chakras, the 7 levels (physical, senses, mind, supermind, bliss, energy, existence). 

I won't go deep again. But you are talking as if you understood nothing from my replies in science vs god debate. Let me clear in simple words

1. I'm totally against religion and blind belief!
2. Indian science does not talk of a GOD at all

Read the Science Vs God debates again, otherwise I might bombard the next two pages with verses alone!




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Yeah, and there is Feku Claims | FekuExpress too.
> Someone is lying here, right?


I'm apalled and struck by 100000V lightening that you posted that site as a source!

Read -> Pheku.in: Yet another Congress failure to malign Modi | Niti Central


No offence bro, but I find myself losing an interest in your posts! I still can't digest you posted Feku website here.


----------



## snap (Aug 30, 2013)

@mediator

the indian culture you talk about give rise to superstitions and people who oppose them are killed like Narendra Dabholkar *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/random-ne...on-activist-narendra-dabholkar-shot-dead.html




rhitwick said:


> I beg to differ here.
> You are telling the scriptures were written keeping ‘India’ in mind. This is not Indianness. You just can’t point out and say this particular thing is from original and ancient India. When ‘India’ was not invaded by any other race. This particular scripture or ritual is pure Indian. You can’t, you know.
> Why? Because at that time there was no ‘India’. India is a new concept. The nation was not even in its preset from. The maps and territories marked for different countries were different then.
> Refer here : The Formation of India:
> ...



+1 to this


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## mediator (Aug 30, 2013)

@Snap - Please check your own link. I'm not talking of "modern era" where kids kill their own parents for a little misunderstanding, fathers and mothers sell their own daughter to earn a few bucks, father rapes his own daughter.  Please read my posts a little more carefully next time. India as you see is not so Indian today. 



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> I beg to differ here.
> *You are telling the scriptures were written keeping ‘India’ in mind.* This is not Indianness. You just can’t point out and say this particular thing is from original and ancient India. When ‘India’ was not invaded by any other race. This particular scripture or ritual is pure Indian. You can’t, you know.
> Why? Because at that time there was no ‘India’. India is a new concept. The nation was not even in its preset from. The maps and territories marked for different countries were different then.
> Refer here : The Formation of India:
> ...


You are correct on the bold part. 

The bharatvarsha that the sages called was not the present India, but the whole world as I have earlier pointed out in other debates in detail. It is not the Indianness of the boundaries that I ever talked about or scriptures written keeping India in mind.

I request you again, to understand the science of consciousness otherwise even after all the verses I post and the details of the past, you'd still be on a wild goose chase making surmises on what I'm stating. The basic necessity for such an understanding is a scientific mindset, detachment which can allow you to decondindtion from your own beliefs and enable you to transcend beyond names to actual essence and free your mind from a world that is deluded by the maya of time and space to that which is beyond time and space!


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## shreymittal (Aug 31, 2013)

Petrol price hiked by Rs 2.35 per litre, diesel by 50 paise
Petrol price hiked by Rs 2.35 per litre, diesel by 50 paise


----------



## Inceptionist (Aug 31, 2013)

What goes down but doesn't come up?



Spoiler



*upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Indian_Rupee_symbol.svg


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## heidi2521 (Aug 31, 2013)

UPA prepares poison pill for 2014 election

I won't win so I won't let you win either.


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## ico (Aug 31, 2013)

"The science of consciousness"...hmm.

I dunno what consciousness is tbh. We're just machines with a metabolism and self-sustaining chemical processes of our own. There's nothing "alive" as such. I'm not alive. I have no soul. I'm not "I". Nothing is me. Just an organic machine is what we all are. We don't have any soul either. There is no "afterlife" as such either.

The human has evolved from other animals in such a way that it can actually "think", can be creative and do more things other than eating + excreting. But we're still animals. We're still like them. We aren't special. We aren't the chosen ones or anything.


rhitwick said:


> You know “Baba Saheb Ambedkar” is the burning example that the so called Indian knowledge and ‘atma-gyaan’ was a failure.
> *A particular group of people were getting benefits where few were being crushed as ever.*
> Why do you think our constitution is not based on any religion or texts of any ancient scriptures? And, India always had this diversity of people of different beliefs.
> This diversity was not created by some outsiders. It was there, always.
> ...


The powerful always crushes the weak. That's how things go. Nothing special there.

I won't deduce things like 'atma-gyan' was a failure from that.


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## heidi2521 (Aug 31, 2013)

ico said:


> The human has evolved from other animals in such a way that it can actually "think", can be creative and do more things other than eating + excreting. But we're still animals. We're still like them. We aren't special. We aren't the chosen ones or anything.



This reminds me of something Douglas Adams wrote in H2G2



			
				Douglas Adams said:
			
		

> For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons


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## ico (Aug 31, 2013)

The way I look at reservation:

People calling themselves X screwed Y. Unfair. Wrong. Retarded. Y is now screwing X. Unfair. Wrong. Retarded.

Do I care about reservation?

No, I don't give a damn.

Both X and Y are fools.

But this farce should end at some point. Promotes the problem instead of curing it, but then wouldn't I want to go against people who oppressed my people? Everyone attaches themselves to some cult/community. There the problem is.


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 1, 2013)

reservation though not a solution is still useful to some extent.something is better than nothing.there are still many interior parts in India where SC/ST are a oppressed lot(people like us can't even imagine).in such areas even if one person becomes a govt officer because of reservation it gives a morale boost to entire community of theirs.even if that person is not really concerned much with outside his family/relatives still just throwing around the name of a govt officer from their community saves them from many troubles in such areas.i agree that it is not a permanent solution(as also recognized by constitution makers who never made it permanent) but as long as there is no better solution(which ironically has not been demanded by even so called SC/ST parties let alone general parties) it is the only remedy.as for undue advantage this is only applicable relative to general category students but not absolute.i personally know many SC/ST candidates who failed to clear IIT/UPSC/SSC despite studying as much as any general category students & same is the case with those who cleared such exams.just because you are in reserved category doesn't mean that you can clear any exam by lesser hard work.only those who possess greater intelligence need to work less than normal people to successfully achieve something & this has nothing to do with category.also govt jobs are not super specialty medical field(in which there is no reservation btw) where not worthy candidates can actually put someone's life in danger.the way i see it if selecting a reserved category candidate who worked as hard as a general category candidate but scored less marks being selected in a govt job results in more benefits to society(or even a couple of dozens people:close & extended family members & area people) then it is worth it.


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## theterminator (Sep 1, 2013)

Reservation is good for poor people but not at the cost of upper caste because somehow people assume that all upper caste people are rich which is not true. I didn't got job because I didn't scored marks required for general category whereas with the same marks my OBC friend got a job. He is richer than me . 
And I see many people who adopt upper caste surnames & still benefit category reservation because they have a certificate.


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## heidi2521 (Sep 1, 2013)

I think that reservation is fine, but only on economic basis. A poor person of a higher caste is deserves as much as a poor person of a lower caste.

Since the lower castes have been oppressed historically they are more economically downtrodden they will take more advantage of the bill by default and it will help uplift their community. We won't see situations like theterminator's happen either in a reservation system with sole economic basis. 

Vote bank politics means that this will never happen though. We will see more and more groups getting SC/ST/OBC/whatever status until the very highest of the classes are put at a disadvantage and everybody else is at an equilibrium.


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## shreymittal (Sep 2, 2013)

Govt. wants to close petrol pumps at night to save fuel From 8AM to 8PM *12 HRS/Day*
*economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/...o-reduce-fuel-demand/articleshow/22210172.cms


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 2, 2013)

theterminator said:


> Reservation is good for poor people but not at the cost of upper caste because somehow people assume that all upper caste people are rich which is not true. I didn't got job because I didn't scored marks required for general category whereas with the same marks my OBC friend got a job. He is richer than me .
> And I see many people who adopt upper caste surnames & still benefit category reservation because they have a certificate.





dead5 said:


> I think that reservation is fine, but *only on economic basis. A poor person of a higher caste is deserves as much as a poor person of a lower caste.*



*when it comes to social status/problems faced:
poor SC/ST(not OBC)<<<<<<poor general/higher caste*
in many parts of India(including UP/haryana/TN just to give the extent of the problem) a *poor SC/ST can get killed for even daring to talk back or just speak with girls from general caste* but you won't find *nothing even close to such situations for poor general category persons* except in extremely rare cases.


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## amjath (Sep 2, 2013)

shreymittal said:


> Govt. wants to close petrol pumps at night to save fuel From 8AM to 8PM *12 HRS/Day*
> Government mulling proposal to shut petrol pumps at night to reduce fuel demand - The Economic Times



Heard this in news, they said the reason for this is, they found fuel consumption is high during night  what??? really!!


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 2, 2013)

absurd ideas which will do nothing except making it more clear to investors that current govt has no serious intentions of improving economy.rupee fall will continue with some minor improvements in between until the formation of next govt.after that it will depend on whose govt comes to power & how.


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## Flash (Sep 2, 2013)

dead5 said:


> I think that reservation is fine, but only on economic basis. A poor person of a higher caste is deserves as much as a poor person of a lower caste.





whitestar_999 said:


> *when it comes to social status/problems faced:
> poor SC/ST(not OBC)<<<<<<poor general/higher caste*
> in many parts of India(including UP/haryana/TN just to give the extent of the problem) a *poor SC/ST can get killed for even daring to talk back or just speak with girls from general caste* but you won't find *nothing even close to such situations for poor general category persons* except in extremely rare cases.



Adding to this.. 
Still there's untouchability exists in rural villages of TN, which affect lower caste people deeply.

- Lower caste people are not allowed to walk in certain streets, where higher caste lives.
- There will be 2 glasses (Glass and aluminium) in every tea shop of some villages. Lower caste should drink in Aluminium sitting in the ground, whereas Glass is for higher caste.
- Still higher caste people (maybe a poor) wash the place (in home mostly) with water, where lower caste person (maybe in a high position) sat.

Even, there are 2 graveyards in some villages, one (will be within the village) for higher caste and normal people and one for lower caste. 
When it comes to untouchability, people other than lower caste (all) form a group and lower caste will form another group..


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## theterminator (Sep 2, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> *when it comes to social status/problems faced:
> poor SC/ST(not OBC)<<<<<<poor general/higher caste*
> in many parts of India(including UP/haryana/TN just to give the extent of the problem) a *poor SC/ST can get killed for even daring to talk back or just speak with girls from general caste* but you won't find *nothing even close to such situations for poor general category persons* except in extremely rare cases.





Gearbox said:


> Adding to this..
> Still there's untouchability exists in rural villages of TN, which affect lower caste people deeply.
> 
> - Lower caste people are not allowed to walk in certain streets, where higher caste lives.
> ...



does this make whole of general category people culpable? like you will say for them that they are suffering only because of their identity...i can say the same about me, but i am not against their reservation .... what do you have to say about OBC ? my main concern is about them,  they're the chaurasia's, gupta's, jaiswal's, yadavs, etc......many are financially affluent but still benefit from reservation, they don't undergo the trauma that lowest caste people go...



amjath said:


> Heard this in news, they said the reason for this is, they found fuel consumption is high during night  what??? really!!



where i fill, it opens at 7am.. so no surprises for me


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## heidi2521 (Sep 2, 2013)

@whitestar @gearbox: It is true that ST/SC face problems other than economic hardship but that is not going to be resolved by reservation. People who want to discriminate will discriminate no matter what his position (In fact I wouldn't be surprised if people who got in due to quotas and not due to merit are looked at with contempt). We need better enforcement of anti-discrimination laws and prolonged education campaigns to make people understand that as humans no one is superior or inferior based on their birthright.

I don't think that bigoted idiots will start respecting SC/STs just because he got into an IIT, especially if he took the easy way in.


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## shreymittal (Sep 2, 2013)

Petrol and Diesel prices gonna get a hike again...*ONCE AGAIN*


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## KyleSforza (Sep 2, 2013)

@Mediater

I only have one question. Do you work for Modi? Cause boy those are some looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong boring posts.


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## avinandan012 (Sep 2, 2013)

dead5 said:


> @whitestar @gearbox: It is true that ST/SC face problems other than economic hardship but that is not going to be resolved by reservation. People who want to discriminate will discriminate no matter what his position (In fact I wouldn't be surprised if people who got in due to quotas and not due to merit are looked at with contempt). We need better enforcement of anti-discrimination laws and prolonged education campaigns to make people understand that as humans no one is superior or inferior based on their birthright.
> 
> I don't think that bigoted idiots will start respecting SC/STs just because he got into an IIT, especially if he took the easy way in.


Those who are in favour of SC/STs in IITs *through quota* just look at the drop out rate. 

Then again I hate the IIT system govt. spends crores each year to fund IITs these graduates then goes to US & settles there which ultimately promote US. 
So basically tax payer money is being used to support US economy. Just look at the numbers of owners/VPs of Silicon Valey companies.


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 2, 2013)

@theterminator,i am totally against OBC reservation except for poor OBC which currently isn't the case because creamy layer OBC limit is still high not to mention people with no regular/typical job but earning high can still successfully get non-creamy layer certificate despite earning good income from other sources.

@dead5,what you said holds true for an ideal world but sadly we don't live in an ideal world.in this world power commands respect(whether intentional or forced) & in india that means a govt job(preferably govt services) which in turn depends majorly on education background(& IIT is the best here).if someone from SC/ST in a small village/area clears UPSC civil services & becomes an IAS/IPS/IRS then an average general caste person will think twice before insulting a SC/ST like he did before.such people won't respect you even if SC/ST person cleared exam without reservation.if you don't know there was a case some years back where general caste judge of a high court actually ordered washing of the entire office because the person before him was a SC/ST.

@avinandan012,what dropout rate are you talking about?some years ago *IIT Delhi decided to throw out 11 SC/ST students for poor academic performance* & after fighting court cases *in HC/SC most of them were taken back because court find merit in their claim that they are being unfairly treated.note this is the decision of SC judges none of whom was SC/ST & just so you know there is no reservation in HC/SC judges.*as for pressure obviously for reasons stated above SC/ST are already under great pressure because of the double whammy of reservation(as noted by courts in IIT-D case) as well as carrying the burden of entire family & their local area community expectations which may result in poor performance.
*as for IITians leaving for USA what's wrong in that.would you rather prefer that a brilliant IITian spend his life in India doing some govt job/managerial post earning lakhs per month or go to USA & start a company which eventually creates next gen tech/software service benefiting entire humanity?*


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## mediator (Sep 2, 2013)

KyleSForza said:
			
		

> @Mediater
> 
> I only have one question. Do you work for Modi? Cause boy those are some looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong boring posts.


The moment a person starts personalising and discusses the people in the discussion rather the subject or the essence of the debate, it leads to the demise of a fruitful discussion. This is something we see in "Science Vs God" debate often which has reincarnated for some 1000 times where people rather discussing are often engaged in tagging others as theist, atheist, agnostic etc or whatever fancy tags they know of to suit their conditioned minds and hence analyze the discussion from their limited framework unable to transcend the limitation of words, mind, names etc and to add, debate by giving the certificates and testimonials of other people rather than understanding the concept or subject through their own primary understanding and giving it the same thought process and time they give to other studies. Yet they call themselves 'scientific'.

My questions to Rhitwick are not limited to him and I have seen enough teenagers who jump into the debate randomly trying to sound all cool, but all they have to say is "your posts are too long/you are communal/you are XYZ etc" on the similar lines of Digvijay's little speeches and Amul Baby's royal jibber jabber. But thank you for such an intellectually stirring reply! 

It would have been an honor had I worked for Modi and I hope this reply wasn't too long for your royal taste.


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## rhitwick (Sep 2, 2013)

I'll come back here when discussion related to reservation dies down.

b/w in my office I met one Gujrati (Bong by birth but 30+ yrs stay in Gujrat). He claimed to have worked under NaMo and he told me what NaMo did to Muslims at that time(riot) was right!

I hope Mediator too does not think in the same line.


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## amjath (Sep 2, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> I'll come back here when discussion related to reservation dies down.
> 
> b/w in my office I met one Gujrati (Bong by birth but 30+ yrs stay in Gujrat). He claimed to have worked under NaMo and* he told me what NaMo did to Muslims at that time(riot) was right!*
> 
> I hope Mediator too does not think in the same line.



What is he, extremist???


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## mediator (Sep 2, 2013)

@rhitwick:
I have heard from many "hindus", that what Congress did to "Sikhs" in 1984 was right as Sikhs in punjab were becoming a nuisance and were brutally killing Hindus. I disagree. The only difference between what you and I state is that COngress has been found guilty in 1984 (a state sponsored genocide) and Modi not in 2002 (a riot). The similarity here is that many Hindus were angered by the acts of extremist Sikhs in Punjab who stopped buses, categorized people based on 'religion' and then killed 'Hindus'. There was an uproar for Khalistan as well. Similarly, many Hindus were angered when a railways (Sabarmati express) carrying 58 karsevaks, 48 of whom were women and were burnt alive. Naturally, sentiments and anger is going to prevail.

But instead of action of what happened, the so called intellectuals in this forum have a habit to focus only on the reactions, unable to discuss the former at length and narrow it only to "what my friend said/what this Gujarat said". Alas, there is a cry to dissolve 'religion' by such intellectuals, but somewhere deep down their subconscious, they are still conditioned by the divisions based on religion and therefore unable to discuss the actions, or the past where India was plundered creativity (temples, idols, paintings) and science destroyed and raped based on 'religion'.

A goat/buffalo is neither Hindu or Muslim, but just to appease some God who divides the humanity between us and them(believers and non-believers), it is killed en masse. I certainly hope Rhitwick thinks on the same line and discusses this amongst his secular and liberal friends, esp. amongst muslims and let benevolence towards animals prevail.

Congress against ban on cow slaughter in Karnataka - Times Of India

So you met one Gujarati..... 
I guess its a high time you take part in discussion in Madrassas and 'peaceful lectures of Zakir Naik' and share a story on by saying "I met one...."!

*www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jYUL7eBdHg


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## snap (Sep 2, 2013)

well if you are talking about the sacrificing of animals in islam "The meat from the sacrificed animal is divided into three parts. The family retains one third of the share; another third is given to relatives, friends and neighbors; and the other third is given to the poor and needy" if the animal is being wasted then it would have been a problem.


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 2, 2013)

@rhitwick,innocent until proven guilty is a basic principle of justice system even if morally/ethically ambiguous.until Modi is proven guilty by HC & upheld by SC there is no reason to hold gujarat riots against him like some mortal sin but simply a case of administrative failure among a series of administrative success.

@mediator,India is not Gujarat.like they say a real swimmer is one who swims against river flow.Gujarat historically has a vibrant business community(as reflected in typical gujarati businessman stereotype in tv/movies) & relatively more rational society compared to say UP & Bihar.just because Modi has a mostly good governance record in Gujarat does not necessarily mean he can replicate this in entire India.personality & policies of Modi are better suited for a homogeneous & mostly rational society(like many european countries).


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## mediator (Sep 2, 2013)

@Snap - So you found greatness in killing of an animal for religious appeasement. I'm not surprised and I'm sure those who take pride in calling themselves as intellectuals and secularists would ignore it. My question is who gave you the right to kill others parents/brothers/sisters etc? Why don't you kill your own parents etc and divide the flesh as per your "logic".

Do you know the history of Bakr-Id? Lets take this reasoning a little beyond. I'm not sure if you can answer it! Please read and save me the trouble for quoting it down here.

Eid Mubarak!



			
				whitestar said:
			
		

> Modi has a mostly good governance record in Gujarat does not necessarily mean he can replicate this in entire India


Who knows? Why not give him a chance? Why are the intellectuals and secularists now reduced to a minority still want a good for nothing, extempore, academic and IQ fail Amul Baby who doesn't even have a village administrative experience?

I guess its a good thing that Modi is being discussed. Its a free publicity by the critics only.


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## snap (Sep 2, 2013)

if one person is non veg and he shares the meat of the animal with poor people is something wrong in this?


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## mediator (Sep 2, 2013)

@Snap - You have my heart out for you and for your innocent questions. Please read the link for your questions have already been answered there and hence I requested  'save me the trouble for quoting it down here'.

Link ->   Eid Mubarak!


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## snap (Sep 2, 2013)

this is becoming veg vs non veg debate


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## rhitwick (Sep 2, 2013)

mediator said:


> @rhitwick:
> I have heard from many "hindus", that what Congress did to "Sikhs" in 1984 was right as Sikhs in punjab were becoming a nuisance and were brutally killing Hindus. I disagree. The only difference between what you and I state is that COngress has been found guilty in 1984 (a state sponsored genocide) and Modi not in 2002 (a riot). The similarity here is that many Hindus were angered by the acts of extremist Sikhs in Punjab who stopped buses, categorized people based on 'religion' and then killed 'Hindus'. There was an uproar for Khalistan as well. Similarly, many Hindus were angered when a railways (Sabarmati express) carrying 58 karsevaks, 48 of whom were women and were burnt alive. Naturally, sentiments and anger is going to prevail.
> 
> But instead of action of what happened, the so called intellectuals in this forum have a habit to focus only on the reactions, unable to discuss the former at length and narrow it only to "what my friend said/what this Gujarat said". Alas, there is a cry to dissolve 'religion' by such intellectuals, but somewhere deep down their subconscious, they are still conditioned by the divisions based on religion and therefore unable to discuss the actions, or the past where India was plundered creativity (temples, idols, paintings) and science destroyed and raped based on 'religion'.
> ...


You've intelligently avoided the question I raised. Do you support what the "one gujrati" innocently told me?
A wrong is just plain wrong irrespective of whoever does that. Modi is still help responsible for that incident. And, and somehow few inhabitants of Gujrat also believe that the allegation might be true. An, unfortunately they take pride on it.
Don't try to justify by quoting what congress did in 80's we're not discussing PM candidate for 80's here.

Congress sure have few clean candidates here; BJP could have had Nitish Kumar, L.K. Advani or anyone else but they chose Modi just because of the hype around him, nothing else.
And, as already discussed not all BJP teams or allies still convinced about Modi.


> So you met one Gujarati.....
> I guess its a high time you take part in discussion in Madrassas and 'peaceful lectures of Zakir Naik' and share a story on by saying "I met one...."!
> 
> Non-Muslims will not have equal Humanrights - Zakir Naik - YouTube


I know about this man. My ex-roommate was a muslim and he recommended me to watch his shows on TV (those Urdu channels we skip always you remember?!)
So, few time I've watched him talk and I had debated with my room-mate whenever or wherever I felt his talks are not matching my vision of right or wrong.

Again, there is no point in discussing "ours and theirs". Know one thing...neither they nor us are innocent.

@Mediator, b/w about your post on Bakra-id, that link is of a blog where the poster is definitely a hater of Islamic religion. He first starts bashing Zakir-Naik" out of the blue and then starts speculating why this and that.
Why not take reference of a muslim site where the story is told from the other side too.

And, if you point to them slaughtering cows/camels/goats they too can point to many rituals of ours where we slaughter goats to please certain Gods.

Again none of us are innocent dude, none. If you look closely we both are standing at same level.


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## mediator (Sep 3, 2013)

@Rhitwick - 

I'm glad you are again quoting me directly unlike the admin of this forum who comments from the corner and behind the walls like Amul Baby, with a troll record of 24x7 over 365 days.



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> You've intelligently avoided the question I raised. Do you support what the "one gujrati" innocently told me?


I'm against it. I'm against killing of muslims just because they are tagged as muslims. But I'm against the doctrines of Quran as well!

I hope that makes it clear. I'm only against the doctrines of abrahamic religions. Seldom you'd find me saying any word against Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, COnfuicianism, Taoism, Rhitwickism ---- But I'm against state of reduction of these sciences tagged with an "ism" i.e their ism-ness. I'm against any doctrine that divides between us and them, promotes something sordid as 72 virgins in harems and judgement day. I'm against blind belief and attachment to science and Veda for attachment creates delusions and inability to question the subject of attachment. 

Should I post verses from Veda against such attachment, and Gita where it forbids attachment to even Veda?



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Why not take reference of a muslim site where the story is told from the other side too.


You really think I haven't seen them all? The logic from a mindset that resembles the likes of Zakir Naik flooding those sites? Perhaps, you can give me a logic on why to kill an animal and not your own parents "to distribute food etc".

@Snap, rightly pointed out that it will become Veg Vs Non-Veg debate. I can flood with logic, facts, modern researches and certificate and testimonials of the "modern scientists" you often seek!



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> @Mediator, b/w about your post on Bakra-id, that link is of a blog where the poster is definitely *a hater of Islamic religion*.


Another instance where you without reading the substance ended it by tagging the blog poster. Should I dismiss Quran by tagging it as kafir, jews, christian etc hater? Learn to read without tagging! 

Please post at what all places the blog poster hated the "Islamic religion"? So if millions of goats will be killed on one particular day for some "XYZ reasons" Rhitwick will come and justify or ignore, but when someone will protest it out of kindness for animals and their pain, the same Rhitwick will  call him "hater of Islamic religion"? 




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> And, if you point to them slaughtering cows/camels/goats they too can point to many *rituals of ours where we slaughter goats to please certain Gods.*


I'm stricly against it, such ignorance of the priests! But seems you are again not trying to find the truth of the matter yourself but stuck to what I or they have to say! Here is homework you need to do. Read as many version of Quran as possible and then provide me verses for the ones I post which would say anything different. T


You seem to have a soft heart for Islam, whereby you connive, ignore or justify it on the top of distorting or giving false practices under the banner of "Hinduism" as truth, a general approach of modern secularists who insult and criticize the science of their own motherland without even understanding it and promote the acts of invaders, ignore their evil practices and if someone question them up, shut him down by simply tagging him as "anti-.....","communal" etc?

I really don't care what people think of such practices like I said. There are two things
1. Act of people
2. What the scriptures teach

In case of Islam, teachings of the book synchronize with the act of people i.e terrorism in the name of Allah, demand for Sharia wherever muslims start getting in numbers (France, US, UK, India....what not?), demand for a separate law, killing of kafirs, jews and christians, 72 virgins in harem, judgment day, division of the society between us and them (believers and non-believers) etc goes by the teaching of Quran. If you have any other story for these doctrines do bring them forward after deeply understanding them for you might face my questions afterwards. Yes, I have debated for long without any success to the benefit of doubt I had reserved.

Like I stated and have been doing this since time immemorial, the basic foundation of science of consciousness is detachment from your own and borrowed beliefs and questioning extensively and instensively the very science you pursue. It is poles apart and contrary to a mindset which says "My religion is the best".

"La Ilaha Il Alaha Mohammed ur rasool Allah" promotes attachment to a name and a doctrine of his prophet. Like I asked, can you really question the life of Mohammed and question Allah?



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Again none of us are innocent dude, none. If you look closely we both are standing at same level.


I'm not bothered about a ego clash, level or a standing, but simple sharing of information that we call as discussion. Please learn to take humour and light hearted comments without analyzing it too much.

Anyways, we were on a BJP Vs Congress or Modi or Not or "Indian economy goin down debate" *hadn't it been your story over "I met a gujarati".*  You may continue from my post #87 and #89.

PS - The above bold is a light hearted statement. This has been notified so that you don't analyze and give lectures on a stand, innocence, levels etc.


----------



## Tech_chaos (Sep 3, 2013)

KyleSforza said:


> s.



My sheila dixit frnd ..

Praise n praise for sheila dixit ....
You would be in love with his son sandip dixit too


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## snap (Sep 3, 2013)

@mediator

science of their own motherland?? and if rhitwick follow a certain religion which helps understand other religion or have "soft sides" or which tells to help other people then why is it a problem?

and as you said gita and vedas presents higher science through idols and other stories but people accept it literally, can't it be applied to other religions too?

infact in islam it is encouraged to pursue knowledge

we are going too much ot in this thread or is it allowed because we are having a good debate in fight club


----------



## mediator (Sep 3, 2013)

@Snap - 

I really don't understand what you mean by the initial part of you latest post.

 Refer page 265, the chapter on "The Colloquy of Indra and Agastya" from "Secret of Veda by Aurobindo" and it will explain why Indra often fights those who try to conquer Indralok. It is something one can easily sense in his  meditative experiences even in lower stages.

www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/downloadpdf.php?id=30‎

Ofcourse, like Indian science, it can be applied to Islam as well. But I don't know if you have a deep interest in poetry or metaphors. Goto the Islamic worlds and say "Allah and his prophet" are metaphors alone and you'll be beheaded.

I tried to find metaphors, riddles and poetry in Islam, but I failed for all I know Islam is against creativity Idols, paintings, association of Allah with human forms and strict adherence, non-association of female counterparts like Shiva (supreme consciousness, the experience beyond time and space beyond cause and effect) and Shakti (the world of cause and effect, energy principles) etc.

The world of consciousness is a vast one where the sages have often propounded in different ways they preferred be it nyaya, yoga, vasheshika, dvaita, advaita, 108 upanishads written in different styles or Gita where the supreme consciousness speaks to a perturbed mind and guides him through the moments of chaos, stories, idols etc.

Refer my post from #1636 => *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/fight-club/39882-science-god-55.html#post1732585

If one still thinks knowledge is promoted in Islam, then 
1. Vegetarianism would be the first thing not for moralistic or personal reasons but simply because of science of consciousness with a science of sattvic, rajasic and tamasic and non-veg being highest of tamasic foods obstructing the evolution of consciousness for the beginners and unhealthy even as per modern science. Secondly,
2. What is "knowledge" or science behind Bakr-Id?
3. Refer judgement day? Is it a science or a blind a belief? You tell!
4. 72 virgins in heaven. So even heaven in Islam has materialistic pleasures? Benefit of doubt given, and lets find some deeper meaning to it. Please share!
5. Perhaps there is deeper meaning to sharia law and division between us and them?

Your questions are not new to me. I have often tried to think of some deeper meaning. But I could only get it in Greek mythology, the texts of Ahura Mazda etc. But still for the sake of discussion I will leave it to you for finding me some deeper science behind the texts of Islam! I leave it here only.


----------



## Hrishi (Sep 3, 2013)

Stick to topic.


----------



## ico (Sep 3, 2013)

"When I grow up, I'll become a metaphysicist."



mediator said:


> @Snap -
> 
> I really don't understand what you mean by the initial part of you latest post.
> 
> Gita and Veda do not propund through stories or idols, but vice versa. Refer page 265, the chapter on "The Colloquy of Indra and Agastya" from "Secret of Veda by Aurobindo" and *it will explain why Indra often fights those who try to conquer Indralok. It is something one can easily sense in his  meditative experiences even in lower stages.*


hmmm. At a much higher stage then.



mediator said:


> @Rhitwick -
> 
> I'm glad you are again quoting me directly unlike the admin of this forum who comments from the corner and behind the walls like Amul Baby, with a troll record of 24x7 over 365 days.


To quote you directly,


mediator said:


> The moment a person starts personalising and discusses the people in the discussion rather the subject or the essence of the debate, it leads to the demise of a fruitful discussion.


----------



## theterminator (Sep 3, 2013)

if you're from a different religion & you want to marry a muslim ,.you have to accept islam. thats nonsense ...just trying to spread a religion desperately. nothing like that in hinduism 



Spoiler



Oops..thats provocative. 


Spoiler



I love the Sevai in Id


----------



## sujoyp (Sep 3, 2013)

whats religion doing in economic discussion  

Economy goes up and down with the policies govt make...how can we have 3 world richest men and 85crore poor people ...and how place like balaji gets 120cr monthly donation and still state have poor hindus ....how we have 100s of KG of gold in temples underground chambers and we can not use to feed poor people?


----------



## KyleSforza (Sep 3, 2013)

mediator said:


> The moment a person starts personalising and discusses the people in the discussion rather the subject or the essence of the debate, it leads to the demise of a fruitful discussion. This is something we see in "Science Vs God" debate often which has reincarnated for some 1000 times where people rather discussing are often engaged in tagging others as theist, atheist, agnostic etc or whatever fancy tags they know of to suit their conditioned minds and hence analyze the discussion from their limited framework unable to transcend the limitation of words, mind, names etc and to add, debate by giving the certificates and testimonials of other people rather than understanding the concept or subject through their own primary understanding and giving it the same thought process and time they give to other studies. Yet they call themselves 'scientific'.
> 
> My questions to Rhitwick are not limited to him and I have seen enough teenagers who jump into the debate randomly trying to sound all cool, but all they have to say is "your posts are too long/you are communal/you are XYZ etc" on the similar lines of Digvijay's little speeches and Amul Baby's royal jibber jabber. But thank you for such an intellectually stirring reply!
> 
> It would have been an honor had I worked for Modi and I hope this reply wasn't too long for your royal taste.



blah blah blah, I ain't even gonna bother to read it all. I came here just to share this 

*fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1176232_441250445983813_1435567907_n.jpg


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## asingh (Sep 3, 2013)

theterminator said:


> if you're from a different religion & you want to marry a muslim ,.you have to accept islam. thats nonsense ...just trying to spread a religion desperately. nothing like that in hinduism



A lot of temples refuse to marry non-Hindu (if one is non-Hindu) and the gotra per say is not clear.



sujoyp said:


> whats religion doing in economic discussion
> 
> Economy goes up and down with the policies govt make...how can we have 3 world richest men and 85crore poor people ...and how place like balaji gets 120cr monthly donation and still state have poor hindus ....how we have 100s of KG of gold in temples underground chambers and we can not use to feed poor people?



Religion is an innate part of our culture and heritage. It will be in all discussion...!


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## theterminator (Sep 3, 2013)

asingh said:


> *A lot of* temples refuse to marry non-Hindu (if one is non-Hindu) and the gotra per say is not clear.



Not all. Btw, that's nowhere mentioned in shashtra's.


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## asingh (Sep 3, 2013)

theterminator said:


> Not all. Btw, that's nowhere mentioned in shashtra's.



Not sure about the scriptures, but temple refuse. That is all I was saying. I know cases where the Pandit refused.


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## theterminator (Sep 3, 2013)

asingh said:


> Not sure about the scriptures, but temple refuse. That is all I was saying. I know cases where the Pandit refused.



Well that's different. The followers of the religion have made this rule , not the Religion itself.


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## asingh (Sep 3, 2013)

theterminator said:


> Well that's different. The followers of the religion have made this rule , not the Religion itself.



That is how religion is misconstrued and propagated. It is never an exact science. Iconography/practices and dogma: progress/vary as time moves. So it is the religion it self which is refusing.


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## theterminator (Sep 3, 2013)

asingh said:


> That is how religion is misconstrued and propagated. It is never an exact science. Iconography/practices and dogma: progress/vary as time moves. So it is the religion it self which is refusing.



I said the followers , not the religion but in case of Islam that rule is in their rulebook.

Mediater already put forth all this but you're ignorantly coming up again. 
There is a festival which is celebrated by slitting the throats of animals.

And that too with the art of Halal ...very slowly slitting the throat of the animal to give it a hell of a pain 

Then you have Halal market ....


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## snap (Sep 3, 2013)

@terminator

as i previously wrote if a non veg person wants to eat meat and shares with other non veg people is something wrong in that? if we ignore the festival and see what are the benefits of it like poor people getting meat.



Spoiler



Is Islamic slaughter cruel?

The question of how an animal should be slaughtered to avoid cruelty is a different one. It is true that when the blood flows from the throat of an animal it looks violent, but just because meat is now bought neatly and hygienically packaged on supermarket shelves does not mean the animal didn’t have to die? Non-Islamic slaughter methods dictate that the animal should be rendered unconscious before slaughter. This is usually achieved by stunning or electrocution. Is it less painful to shoot a bolt into a sheep’s brain or to ring a chicken’s neck than to slit its throat? To watch the procedure does not objectively tell us what the animal feels.


The scientific facts

A team at the university of Hannover in Germany examined these claims through the use of EEG and ECG records during slaughter. Several electrodes were surgically implanted at various points of the skull of all the animals used in the experiment and they were then allowed to recover for several weeks. Some of the animals were subsequently slaughtered the halal way by making a swift, deep incision with a sharp knife on the neck, cutting the jugular veins and carotid arteries of both sides together with the trachea and esophagus but leaving the spinal cord intact. The remainder were stunned before slaughter using a captive bolt pistol method as is customary in Western slaughterhouses. The EEG and ECG recordings allowed to monitor the condition of the brain and heart throughout.


The Halal method

With the halal method of slaughter, there was not change in the EEG graph for the first three seconds after the incision was made, indicating that the animal did not feel any pain from the cut itself. This is not surprising. Often, if we cut ourselves with a sharp implement, we do not notice until some time later. The following three seconds were characterised by a condition of deep sleep-like unconciousness brought about by the draining of large quantities of blood from the body. Thereafter the EEG recorded a zero reading, indicating no pain at all, yet at that time the heart was still beating and the body convulsing vigorously as a reflex reaction of the spinal cord. It is this phase which is most unpleasant to onlookers who are falsely convinced that the animal suffers whilst its brain does actually no longer record any sensual messages.


The Western method

Using the Western method, the animals were apparently unconscious after stunning, and this method of dispatch would appear to be much more peaceful for the onlooker. However, the EEG readings indicated severe pain immediately after stunning. Whereas in the first example, the animal ceases to feel pain due to the brain starvation of blood and oxygen – a brain death, to put it in laymens terms – the second example first causes a stoppage of the heart whilst the animal still feels pain. However, there are no unsightly convulsions, which not only means that there is more blood retention in the meat, but also that this method lends itself much more conveniently to the efficiency demands of modern mass slaughter procedures. It is so much easier to dispatch an animal on the conveyor belt, if it does not move.


Appearances can deceive

Not all is what it seems, then. Those who want to outlaw Islamic slaughter, arguing for a humane method of killing animals for food, are actually more concerned about the feelings of people than those of the animals on whose behalf they appear to speak. The stunning method makes mass butchery easier and looks more palatable for the consumer who can deceive himself that the animal did not feel any pain when he goes to buy his cleanly wrapped parcel of meat from the supermarket. Islamic slaughter, on the other hand, does not try to deny that meat consumption means that animals have to die, but is designed to ensure that their loss of life is achieved with a minimum amount of pain.


The holistic view

Islam is a balanced way of life. For Muslims, the privilege of supplementing their diet with animal protein implies a duty to animal welfare, both during the rearing of the animal and during the slaughter. Modern Western farming and slaughter, on the other hand, aims at the mass consumer market and treats the animal as a commodity. Just as battery hens are easier for large-scale egg production, Western slaughter methods are easier for the meat industry, but they do neither the animal nor the end consumer any favours. The Islamic way guarantees a healthier life for the animal and a healthier meat for the consumer


if you want to keep religion out of it and debate only about veg vs non veg then it is okay


@mediator


mediator said:


> @Snap -
> 
> I really don't understand what you mean by the initial part of you latest post



it was meant for this


mediator said:


> @Rhitwick -
> 
> You seem to have a soft heart for Islam, whereby you connive, ignore or justify it on the top of distorting or giving false practices under the banner of "Hinduism" as truth, a general approach of modern secularists who insult and criticize the science of their own motherland without even understanding it and promote the acts of invaders, ignore their evil practices and if someone question them up, shut him down by simply tagging him as "anti-.....","communal" etc?


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## theterminator (Sep 3, 2013)

^the longest post of the day . 
By God, you just defended slaughtering! Now next idiots (oops but i have no choice) will say "Give the death penalty by Halaling a person as that will be more peaceful"   

Tell me about Hinduism. I mean what the texts/verses of Hindu literary say. Do any of that sh!t exists in the shashtra's??!? Come on, do some copy-paste again .


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## snap (Sep 3, 2013)

@terminator

did you read the post properly and i posted the copy-paste thing in spoilers and please atleast debate constructively like mediator, without posting silly memes


----------



## theterminator (Sep 3, 2013)

snap said:


> @terminator
> 
> did you read the post properly and i posted the copy-paste thing in spoilers and please atleast debate constructively like mediator, without posting silly memes


Did the facepalms really hit you in the a$$  
oh, I did read your post very clearly. Why don't you be a good boy & reply to my posts.


----------



## ico (Sep 3, 2013)

Vegetarian food vs non-vegetarian food?

I'm a vegetarian. I'm also non-vegetarian. The main reason of going vegetarian is because of the basic 90% energy loss law of a food chain as we go up - consumer by consumer. Primary producers get their energy all directly from the sun. So, vegetarian people are getting their energy directly from the plants. For a mutton eater, the goat gets 10% from the plants and we get 10% of that from the goat. So, a mutton eater got only 1%.

That's all theory though. True theory. It doesn't matter much btw. Humans have been on top of the food chain for a very very long time now. We've already caused and are spreading too much of filth around. Going veg matters as much as an amoeba dying this second.

If the argument is about "HEY! WE SHOULD NOT HURT ANIMALS!!! THEY ARE ALIVE." well, even plants are also a type of lifeform. It's the law of the universe - one has to eat to survive. To eat, one needs to, hmm kill. Or rear an animal. Milk from cows, buffaloes...eggs from hen et cetera.

I also advise people not to use harpic to clean their unclean toilets. Microbes. They also have a metabolism. Don't want to hurt "life"?

Next argument will be, but animals are "conscious". Plants are not.

If one believes in "life", shouldn't all "life" be equal to him? Why the differentiation?

The next level is - you can go Super Saiyan through the union with the formless and the timeless. You'll go beyond the reality, in a reality of your own. You won't have to eat anything and you shalt fight Indra, the tiger. This can solve the world hunger problem as well.



theterminator said:


> *Did the facepalms really hit you in the a$$*
> oh, I did read your post very clearly. Why don't you be a good boy & reply to my posts.


Behave please.

------
@snap

+100 to your signature.


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## theterminator (Sep 3, 2013)

Yeah, but answer the merciless Halal . This ain't a veg vs non-veg debate although you will be struck down on that. Mankind has advanced to the point that it doesn't need to 'kill' & spill others blood. Now don't give the ultimate Buddhist lecture that even an ant will feel hurt , well those are things we sometimes cannot avoid in daily lives but we sure the hell can survive without red meat. 


He/she called your Smilies *"silly memes"*.

Somewhere in this page I found this . 



Rishi. said:


> Stick to topic.


----------



## ico (Sep 3, 2013)

theterminator said:


> Yeah, but answer the merciless Halal . This ain't a veg vs non-veg debate although you will be struck down on that. Mankind has advanced to the point that it doesn't need to 'kill' & spill others blood. Now don't give the ultimate Buddhist lecture that even an ant will feel hurt , well those are things we sometimes cannot avoid in daily lives but *we sure the hell can survive without red meat. *


sure, we can survive without red meat. 

but hey, my simple question is, are we killing a plant as well? Yup, we are. We grow paddy to feed our stomach. Then we wipe it out. We grow it again. 

But does it matter what one is eating or not? It doesn't. It doesn't matter at all.

The only point which is right is, sacrificial rituals are silly.

Regarding the Halal vs Jhatka debate, hmm. The only thing which I can see is, the death of the animal and it being cooked. tbh, what way it is Halal or Jhatka, this shouldn't even matter.


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## ankush28 (Sep 3, 2013)

Dont you think you guys are going bit off topic


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## theterminator (Sep 3, 2013)

Comparing killing of plants vs slaughtering of animals? Really? Calls for a facepalm but no, I shall behave for this is a constructive argument.
The whole "Go Vegan" campaign is a Joke according to you. 
Does it matter what one is eating? 
Why not? Can you have one society where Cow is considered ( & actually is ) sacred & for others its beef? 
Sacrificial rituals are silly! Like thats breaking news. What I am trying to say is give me that page of The Bhagvata Gita where it advocates that , you might have heard of 'Bali' , 'Sati' but those are not written in Hinduism whereas I don't have to mention about other religion. BTW even these are meant to be sacrifices & not eat the goddamn thing! 

Halal vs Jhatka . Do one thing, go outside & witness or try yourself the Halal & Jhatka & come back & tell us which is mercyful & merciless. If you want to kill, kill with some mercy.



ankush28 said:


> Dont you think you guys are going bit off topic


It happens when people don't debate 


Spoiler



CONSTRUCTIVELY


----------



## bssunilreddy (Sep 3, 2013)

Stick to the topic people.
I eat haleem (mostly sold during ramzaan)when ever available that does not mean I support slaughtering of animals nor cutting of trees. 
There are still 60% of flora & fauna that is yet to be discovered in the many rain forests around the world. Nearly 90% of deep sea creatures are yet to be discovered. That means there is a lot of ecosystem left to save or flourish for future generations.
Coming to the topic, we can save ourselves(Economy) only if we control imports and make any MNC pay half of what they get as profit by selling their goods in India.Here FDI comes in to view. They invest heavily there by providing jobs but the end result is that they procure from us and sell it to us at a higher rate(to a different strata of society) and the rest goes back to their home economies. For Example: Amway. These guys don't do any community service like adopting schools or villages in our country like our big indian firms do. Example:Airtel's contribution to schools and villages in rural Rajastan.
FDI is useful but more measures are needed to keep the flow of FI into india constantly making it a competitive economy. FDI is not at all detrimental to local traders business because I buy from local traders and people earning big salaries buy from Walmart, Bestbuy etc.
Solution: Don't give complete freedom to foreign traders yet make them do community work.


----------



## ico (Sep 3, 2013)

theterminator said:


> Comparing killing of plants vs slaughtering of animals? Really? Calls for a facepalm but no, I shall behave for this is a constructive argument.
> *The whole "Go Vegan" campaign is a Joke according to you. *
> Does it matter what one is eating?


hmm? I actually explained why it is good to consume plants rather than animals the best way in this thread. Read my post #140.

But the fact that people eat some other "life" form to survive is a fact. Everything is what? Just organic molecules. 

Now people have got the choice of what they want to eat. So, let them eat. The Chinese don't argue about such silly things. They regressed but buckled up. May be that's the reason they're ahead of us now economically and culturally.



theterminator said:


> Why not? Can you have one society where Cow is considered ( & actually is ) sacred & for others its beef?
> Sacrificial rituals are silly! Like thats breaking news. What I am trying to say is give me that page of The Bhagvata Gita where it advocates that , you might have heard of 'Bali' , 'Sati' but those are not written in Hinduism whereas I don't have to mention about other religion. BTW even these are meant to be sacrifices & not eat the goddamn thing!
> 
> Halal vs Jhatka . Do one thing, go outside & witness or try yourself the Halal & Jhatka & come back & tell us which is mercyful & merciless. If you want to kill, kill with some mercy.


There is nothing sacred in the universe.

Abrahamic religions believe in proselytising. (Jihadis are forcing others to "convert", eat beef et cetera.) The "Hindus" in this thread are the same. Just a bit more sophisticated. Trying to find every answer in texts.

I read something on the similar lines somewhere on Times of India, "Our vegetarian atma-gyani yindoo warriors were no match for the invading meat eating moslems. " - nonsense but funny.


----------



## theterminator (Sep 3, 2013)

bavusani said:


> Stick to the topic people.
> *I eat haleem (mostly sold during ramzaan)when ever available that does not mean I support slaughtering of animals nor cutting of trees. *
> There are still 60% of flora & fauna that is yet to be discovered in the many rain forests around the world. Nearly 90% of deep sea creatures are yet to be discovered. That means there is a lot of ecosystem left to save or flourish for future generations.



Man, first you say to stick to topic then you go on & continue the same topic. Your statement seems like an oxymoron. If one eats meat , he's supporting slaughter indirectly. 



> Solution: Don't give complete freedom to foreign traders yet make them do community work.


Foreign companies are withdrawing their investments here, even Indians are investing abroad. LN Mittal just withdrew. Corporate class is not happy with the government. 




Spoiler



Im being modest, you sound like 


Spoiler



*i.imgur.com/ULGiTvG.jpg


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## heidi2521 (Sep 3, 2013)

Going back on topic:

Goldman cuts India's GDP forecast to 4 per cent, sees rupee at 72

*www.nytimes.com/2013/08/31/opinion/why-indias-economy-is-stumbling.html?smid=re-share



ico said:


> Need Modi.



Before that, we need *con*gress out. 

A 60 lakh crore scam?-News-Exclusives-TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos

The way UPA is ****ing things over right now and setting up traps for the next govt. in the form of the LAB and FSB I don't think that even Modi will be able to save this country. He may be an efficient administrator with some really good ideas but a magician he is not.

TVTropes warning:



Spoiler



Our current govt's strategy:

*tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit


----------



## ico (Sep 3, 2013)

dead5 said:


> Going back on topic:
> 
> Goldman cuts India's GDP forecast to 4 per cent, sees rupee at 72
> 
> *www.nytimes.com/2013/08/31/opinion/why-indias-economy-is-stumbling.html?smid=re-share


Need Modi.


----------



## theterminator (Sep 3, 2013)

ico said:


> hmm? I actually explained why it is good to consume plants rather than animals the best way in this thread. Read my post #140.
> 
> But the fact that people eat some other "life" form to survive is a fact. Everything is what? Just organic molecules.


Had it been only about organic molecules then we would be Robots coming & going, doing their business without any form of culture/feeling involved but the difference is we do have cultures, we do have relationships, we do feel for others. 
What stops me from posting ,say, a tutorial video of how to halal or slit the throat of a goat for the non vegetarians here? 
My point is its not that "simple" & only about "organic molecules" as you would like us to believe. 


ico said:


> Now people have got the choice of what they want to eat. So, let them eat. The Chinese don't argue about such silly things. They regressed but buckled up. May be that's the reason they're ahead of us now economically and culturally.


China has started developing in the late 20th century. What was their culture doing for the last 19 centuries? That India-China debate is a different context which has not much to do with religion but about policies.


ico said:


> There is nothing sacred in the universe.


Its what you believe to be. It may be that which benefits the ecosystem immensely. 



ico said:


> Abrahamic religions believe in proselytising. (Jihadis are forcing others to "convert", eat beef et cetera.) .The "Hindus" in this thread are the same. Just a bit more sophisticated. Trying to find every answer in texts.


Have you even read those texts? 


ico said:


> I read something on the similar lines somewhere on Times of India, "Our vegetarian atma-gyani yindoo warriors were no match for the invading meat eating moslems. " - funny.


Where were those invading meat eating mosems when the British came to power? 
Probably eating the animals excreta when the britishers were eating the meat


----------



## ico (Sep 3, 2013)

Congi won't go out.

They've got their success formula working since independence. Rahul is right. "If India is computer, Windows is its default program." 

Get used to this. Or else, go out become a revolutionary. When did we last have a revolution?



theterminator said:


> Had it been only about organic molecules then we would be Robots coming & going, doing their business without any form of culture/feeling involved but the difference is we do have cultures, we do have relationships, we do feel for others. My point is its not that "simple" & only about "organic molecules" as you would like us to believe.


Just a damn good machine we are. Damn good. It's a wonder. But we are a machine.

NaOH and KOH "dissolve" dead bodies pretty well. No one would ever know.



theterminator said:


> Where were those invading meat eating mosems when the British came to power?
> Probably eating the animals excreta when the britishers were eating the meat


Pretty much. Every Indian was doing the same.


----------



## asingh (Sep 3, 2013)

theterminator said:


> I said the followers , not the religion but in case of Islam that rule is in their rulebook.
> 
> Mediater already put forth all this but you're ignorantly coming up again.
> There is a festival which is celebrated by slitting the throats of animals.
> ...



Strawman.

I am not even talking about Islam, for Christ's sake. Why are you bringing that up. And I am not ignoring Mediator and his posts, I am not part of that discussion. Try to understand how religion is controlled by men (not animals); and it is used as a tool and device for graduation and governance of the populace. This is applicable to all religions, and apparent in Europe and why the irreligious Nordic model was adopted. Followers and leaders are what drive the religion similar to how a river flows of bed-rocks and makes channels.


----------



## theterminator (Sep 3, 2013)

ico said:


> Pretty much. Every Indian was doing the same.


But then there were freedom fighters. 


Spoiler



Now ladies & gentlemen get ready for our freedom fighters are to be mocked.





asingh said:


> Strawman.
> 
> I am not even talking about Islam, for Christ's sake. Why are you bringing that up. And I am not ignoring Mediator and his posts, I am not part of that discussion. Try to understand how religion is controlled by men (not animals); and it is used as a tool and device for graduation and governance of the populace. This is applicable to all religions, and apparent in Europe and why the irreligious Nordic model was adopted. Followers and leaders are what drive the religion similar to how a river flows of bed-rocks and makes channels.



And clearly , you're not getting me. I know what you already know. Don't think that I am not aware of the misuse of religion by man of every religion. Asaram Bapu episode being the latest. But the thing is, I am not even talking about what the followers have done.  I am trying to go into the very basic "roots" i.e., the Texts , The Bhagvada Gita, The Puranic verses.


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## ico (Sep 3, 2013)

theterminator said:


> But then there were freedom fighters.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I didn't even mock any "religion" in here, not even any person who posted here, didn't even try to "force" my views on others, didn't even call any "name" and you think I'd mock Sardar Patel?

Go through my posts.


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## theterminator (Sep 3, 2013)

ico said:


> I didn't even mock any "religion" in here, not even any person who posted here, didn't even try to "force" my views on others, didn't even call any "name" and you think I'd mock Sardar Patel?
> 
> Go through my posts.



When did I say you called anyone's name here? Why being so dramatic?



ico said:


> Just a damn good machine we are. Damn good. It's a wonder. But we are a machine.
> 
> NaOH and KOH "dissolve" dead bodies pretty well. No one would ever know.



I updated the post you quoted to write this one. Go through my post.


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## ico (Sep 3, 2013)

theterminator said:


> My point is its not that "simple" & only about "organic molecules" *as you would like us to believe.*


No, I don't want you to believe that we are simply "organic molecules". 

Believe what you want. But there should be a rationale behind it. Read objectively. Don't show any partiality while reading.


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## theterminator (Sep 3, 2013)

I am writing these again but someone deleted these 2 posts of mine first time:




ico said:


> There is nothing sacred in the universe.



There are many things considered sacred in Hindu religion. You just "wiped" them off by one single line & also the many in your mind while writing that line. 


ico said:


> I read something on the similar lines somewhere on Times of India, "Our vegetarian atma-gyani yindoo warriors were no match for the invading meat eating moslems. " - nonsense but funny.


What was the point in bringing this up, I didn't understood. You added the word "nonsense" after a long time .



ico said:


> No, I don't want you to believe that we are simply "organic molecules".
> 
> Believe what you want. But there should be a rationale behind it. *Read objectively. Don't show any partiality while reading.*


Well that's the rationale which every sane person would follow .


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## snap (Sep 3, 2013)

@terminator



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Talking about any particular religion is not bad. But bragging and claiming it’s the best is not proper.


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## theterminator (Sep 3, 2013)

snap said:


> @terminator
> Talking about any particular religion is not bad. But *bragging *and claiming it’s the best is not proper.



I object to the word "*bragging*".


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## ico (Sep 3, 2013)

There is no word for "religion" in our native languages.



theterminator said:


> I am writing these again *but someone deleted* these 2 posts of mine first time:


Moderator log shows absolutely nothing regarding this.



Spoiler



*i.imgur.com/NKSnp9S.png



The only thing it shows is, me merging my two posts into one a couple of times today cuz automerge doesn't happen for me. Want a screenshot?



theterminator said:


> There are many things considered sacred in Hindu religion. You just "wiped" them off by one single line & also the many in your mind while writing that line.


so? I became an "apostate" because I "wiped" them off?

Said this quite a few times before. "What Yindians 'follow' today is Yindooism. No worse than the Abrahmic 'cults' which they apparently hate."

Bhajpa supporters, take note. Congi supporters, piss off.


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## gopi_vbboy (Sep 3, 2013)

Back to economy , sensex falls 600+ points on fear of syria war. Damn you war mongers.


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## theterminator (Sep 3, 2013)

ico said:


> so? I became an "apostate" because I "wiped" them off?


That's what you may think. Quite literally, that is how you mock a religion FYI may be because you haven't read the rationale behind that. If you declare that you have read every single piece of text available in Hinduism from ancient times & then come up with this statement that there is nothing sacred in this universe then only it can be termed as a viewpoint otherwise you're ignoring it. Also, include the things which came to your mind while writing that line


ico said:


> Said this quite a few times before. "What *Yindians* 'follow' today is *Yindooism*. No worse than the Abrahmic 'cults' which they apparently hate."


Huh,What? That ain't true & can only be said by one who is not aware of the text. Once again, have you read all those texts?


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## asingh (Sep 4, 2013)

theterminator said:


> And clearly , you're not getting me. I know what you already know. Don't think that I am not aware of the misuse of religion by man of every religion. Asaram Bapu episode being the latest. But the thing is, I am not even talking about what the followers have done.  I am trying to go into the very basic "roots" i.e., the Texts , The Bhagvada Gita, The Puranic verses.



Those texts hold no value anymore, unless it is for the vedic rituals and ceremonies like marriage. The absence of mention of the archaic practices (or misuse) still does not justify what is done in the name of religion -all- of them.


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## ico (Sep 4, 2013)

Cows didn't exist when dinosaurs were there. Somehow popped up and became 'sacred'. A 'sacred' animal speciating from a non-'sacred' ancestor. Defies logic.


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## asingh (Sep 4, 2013)

ico said:


> Cows didn't exist when dinosaurs were there. Somehow popped up and became 'sacred'. A 'sacred' animal speciating from a non-'sacred' ancestor. Defies logic.



Actually cows got the status cause during the old (sic.?) times they were gifted to temples and Brahmins as gifts. Later on killing a cow became equivalent to killing a Brahmin priest. This is how religion transgresses from text---->culture--->habit--->ideology--->rule de facto. Also for the obvious reasons of providing milk/daily products/dung which necessitate agrarian lifestyle.


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## theterminator (Sep 4, 2013)

asingh said:


> Those texts hold *no value* anymore, unless it is for the vedic rituals and ceremonies like marriage. The absence of mention of the archaic practices (or misuse) still does not justify what is done in the name of religion -all- of them.


Hmm. Go read them first & then decide whether they hold any value or not. You need to get the original Gita , not which are easily available in the market for they are interpreted by different saints which have some inconsistencies  .



> “Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed.”





> “One who has control over the mind is tranquil in heat and cold, in pleasure and pain, and in honor and dishonor; and is ever steadfast with the Supreme Self.”





> “It is better to live your own destiny imperfectly than to live an imitation of somebody else's life with perfection.”


 
Oh, I get it. Such quotes don't hold *any value* anymore.


asingh said:


> Actually cows got the status cause during the old (sic.?) times they were gifted to temples and Brahmins as gifts. Later on killing a cow became equivalent to killing a Brahmin priest. This is how religion transgresses from text---->culture--->habit--->ideology--->rule de facto. *Also for the obvious reasons of providing milk/daily products/dung which necessitate agrarian lifestyle.*


Also their piss man... which animals' piss is considered sacred? .

What the Indian Economy can do now? Are there alternatives to the Congress that are worth going for? What will Modi do if he becomes PM? Will there be a guarantee that Modi will be the PM if BJP is in a majority?


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## Raaabo (Sep 4, 2013)

*Indian Economy Going down*

This thread is crazy. It starts off about the economy, becomes a political argument and is now headed a religious way?

I know this is the fight club, but come on. 

I'm not here to close it, but I would like to add my two cents in the hope of perhaps bringing a new perspective that might resonate with a few of you.

Arguing in favour of any political party these days makes it look like you have a vested interest. Personally I'd prefer army rule for a decade, with army style justice for offenders. Want a quick fix to our problems, take away our "freedom". I expect hate replies for this, but hear me out:

I've been abroad often, and even lived there for many years. One thing I always did was follow the behaviour of people on my flight. I used to especially look at the labourer class. They would spit outside the airport, eat something and leave the table dirty, go into the airport loos and leave it filthy for the next person, just throw wrappers everywhere, you get the drift. Upon arrival at the destination - here it's mostly gulf countries that I've been to - the behaviour changes drastically. They're as caring as every citizen should be, even the loos are clean when they finish with them, and I've seen them actively hunting for dustbins. I remember one chap actually asked me to confirm whether what was before him was actually a dustbin, or not. I talked to many of them, asking them why they would litter our country, and not another's. They all said they were warned by family and friends not to, or else they might be deported, jailed, fined, etc.

Fear works in India, nothing else. It's that simple. If you fear for your life or money (the only two things all us Indians value unanimously), you suddenly become straight. Threaten to take away someone's life or money unless he follows the rules, and bam, you have ordered society. Maybe Modi is not what Congress claims he is, maybe Congress leadership is not as corrupt as the scams indicate, but does that mean absolutely anything for you or me? It doesn't change that the on ground support for all of these individuals are nothing more than thugs and crooks. The lower party workers who are actually supposed to implement the ideals of the party, just never do, because they feel too important to care.

For example, those campaigning for BJP here, (I only use them as an example because they're not in power at the moment) next time you see any car with a proud BJP sticker on it, driven by someone important, and he cuts you off in traffic, or jumps a signal, try stopping him and telling him to follow the traffic rules, and say you are a BJP supporter, and that he is bringing shame to the party you support. Who wants to bet against the outcome I predict? You will be told to FO politely, or maybe even slapped for wasting an "important person's time". Now take that statement, and apply it to all positions of power. Not just all parties, but all God men, all movie stars, all self-obsessed people who think they have power - rich businessmen, or their sons, taxi drivers who are in unions, anyone!

The point is, if you think any one of these parties gives a hoot about any of us, you probably also believe in fairy tales. The local corporator might care, because he wants to be elected, and might listen for 10 minutes and make empty promises, but only if it happens to be election time, or you come across as someone who might be able to help him garner votes. Do exceptions exist? I am sure they do, and those poor people have thankless jobs, because they will always be a minority. Politics is the most power hungry game of all, and none of these people are in it to do good for this country, and certainly not you and me specifically. They hanker for power and fame, like to feel important, like to be called sahab, don't want to wait in lines, and feel entitled. Almost ALL OF THEM.

Now coming to Religion. An overwhelming majority of deaths that occur in the world, and that have occurred, are because of religion. Not one religion, but ALL religions. The number may vary, but historically, the Christian religion that I was born into, and have since shunned, seems to have caused the most genocide thus far, but the others seem to want to catch up, for some insane reason - as if this was a race any sane society would want to win!

It's also such a weird thing, because all religions basically offer comfort for those worried about death, and preach peace, and yet have the distinction of causing the majority of unnatural deaths amongst humans. It's a bargaining chip used by political parties, your friends, parents, and almost everyone you meet to try and get you to conform, when every religion always states that being forced into anything is just wrong. It should be something that's personal, but is brandished about proudly, certainly more proudly than your citizenship.

I am not anti-god (whatever form or name you want to use for him or her, I accept them all with open arms), I am just against the organised religion of today. I am against blindly following something you were born into and didn't choose, against the whole debate of faiths - as if one faith could ever be more real or better than another faith. The very word faith implies that you believe it implicitly, and yet we try and argue for or against the faiths of people? 

Why humanity insists on finding ways to divide itself into finer chunks is a mystery to me, but we do - language, regions, social standing, clubs, religion, sect within said religion, gender, and God knows how many more. Yet we all know this, and instead of getting more personally involved with our God or religion at home, and being more Indian outside, we increasingly allow exactly the opposite. We vote for political thugs, make friends, hire people, fire people, fight with people, hate, love, etc., based on these perceived differences. Is this logical to everyone? Does faith have to come with blinders attached?

Everyone has a right to believe in whatever they want, why does it have to come at the cost of forcing others to believe as well? Can the supreme beings we hold so holy really be so shallow as to punish you for praying to the wrong idol or book in the wrong building? Do they all damn entire communities to hell because they were all born into the wrong family? Does the life you lead and the choices you make play no role in deciding whether you are worthy of an afterlife, if one exists?

Just some food for thought for you guys, in the hope that we can be a little more accepting of others' views on faith, no matter how ridiculous we feel they are, and yes, I would classify faith in a political party, on the same level as faith in a supreme being - for every argument that you can ever produce to support your statement, someone else can do the same for his - because (and I repeat) faith by its very definition is unshakeable belief with no proof required - so why try?


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## sujoyp (Sep 4, 2013)

@raaabo you write good man ...


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## asingh (Sep 4, 2013)

theterminator said:


> Hmm. Go read them first & then decide whether they hold any value or not. You need to get the original Gita , not which are easily available in the market for they are interpreted by different saints which have some inconsistencies  .


Better to be pragmatic and face the reality of life. It is not about me reading the original Sanskrit text. You think the people running the temples will hear the logic if I tell them that it is not written so. I am talking about daily practices of religion, which have become the norm.



theterminator said:


> Oh, I get it. Such quotes don't hold *any value* anymore.


To be honest, they hold no value now.



theterminator said:


> What the Indian Economy can do now? Are there alternatives to the Congress that are worth going for? What will Modi do if he becomes PM? Will there be a guarantee that Modi will be the PM if BJP is in a majority?


It will just be another party taking over. Not a world changer. India will remain what it is.


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## Anorion (Sep 4, 2013)

Religion exists everywhere, communalism is made in india


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## rhitwick (Sep 4, 2013)

Anorion said:


> Religion exists everywhere, communalism is made in india


I don't think so.

What did Marx and Lenin preach then?


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## heidi2521 (Sep 4, 2013)

Army rule will only work as long as the leadership is benevolent and the ground workers are not corrupt. If a person can get away with it due to political/social clout or through plain old bribery a lot of the fear evaporates. If the leadership up top isn't benevolent chances are that they will continue looting the country for their own benefit. For every chance of having somebody like Ataturk or Xiaoping as a leader we also run chances of having somebody like Gadaffi on top. Even if they aren't using their position for personal benefit they may end up having various political, social or relegious ideologies they want to push, whether the people agree with it or not. An attempt to push a Pastafarian ideology into the common masses will lead to social unrest and protests against leadership that could lead to riots and insurgency, which would hardly be a fix for anything.

I happen to think that India's problems will start being fixed only when the populations physiological and safety needs are resolved, without the government having to keep them afloat through welfare schemes. Economic emancipation for the countrys poor, public campaigns promoting orderliness, better law enforcement and reduction of red tape and bureaucracy should be priority for any government, be it Congress or BJP or AAP or Lok Satta or w/e.

But for that we need to get rid of vote bank politics and the systemic corruption in this nation,

When it comes to religion I believe that Nicholas Cage is the one true god, Gabe Newell and Shigeru Miyamoto are his prophets, Satoru Iwata and Ken Kutaragi are their archangels and Sean Bean is the devil.

Flippin' warmongerers. 

*profit.ndtv.com/news/forex/article...ar-nears-record-low-amid-syria-worries-326699

Bitcoin is up roughly 35% in the past 4 months, while the rupee is down 25%. Really regretting not investing in bitcoin right about now.


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## Anorion (Sep 4, 2013)

The Marx concept is not how we define communalism at all. We even have a seperate wiki page for our own brand of communalism.


> The sense given to this word in South Asia is represented by the word sectarianism outside South Asia.


Communalism (South Asia) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## theterminator (Sep 4, 2013)

asingh said:


> Better to be pragmatic and face the reality of life. *It is not about me reading the original Sanskrit text.* You think the people running the temples will hear the logic if I tell them that it is not written so. I am talking about daily practices of religion, which have become the norm.


Its my last post regarding this for the sake of Raabo's perspective. It is definitely about you reading the text for you to comment & be judgmental (you did come to the conclusion that these have no value) about it. Otherwise, its shear Ignorance. As I said earlier, the practices can be misguided but that doesn't do any harm to the religion for one can always go & read whether what is being followed is correct or not. 



asingh said:


> It will just be another party taking over. Not a world changer. India will remain what it is.


So, we're out of Luck or say Doomed because the present leadership doesn't seem to care enough about the economic situation. They want us to fight like this & garner votes on the basis of religion/ethnicity/caste. 

Agree with Raabo that fear works in India. The same Indians who will spit onto the roads will not even think of doing that while in other developed countries. Quite the same thing happens within India as well. I once happen to be in a Punjab Roadways bus. While it was standing, some guy in the back spitted pan from the window on the road. The driver immediately stepped outside & came to the same window & asked the person responsible why did you this? He took it casually as in his place (Bihar) , its not a big deal. The driver "scolded" the person & said this is not how we do here. I am not bringing Bihar to book, so please don't take it that way.


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## mediator (Sep 4, 2013)

@Raaabo : 

I agree on your post except for the part where "fear could be used for discipline". Since India is the country of discussion, I'd take cases from India mostly. There had been a time as per ancient knowledge and history when people used to leave their doors open and still there wouldn't be any robbery, women understood a higher purpose in life than just being a marriage material or seen as an object.

"Discipline through fear" is what has been practiced by the Britishers and continued by its fork, the Congress party. Yes, we cannot divorce politics when the talking about the nation. This is something we saw during Anna's Anshan, Ramdev's Anshan where peaceful protesters were brutally assaulted with tear gases at 1 am night killing a 51 year old lady, Rajbala. In Delhi, many people take pride in breaking traffic rules even though the fines are heavy. Fear is something that IMO has not worked on Indians for men do not join Army for low wages, but a pride, a sense of love towards their motherland.

The whole question then converges : What is this discipline that we talk about? A discipline distorted by the corruption of the ideals can become adharma as well irrespective of the fact whether its a democracy or dictatorship!

Today, from the very childhood a kid is made to believe that he has high dreams. His material desires are fulfilled by parents who out of their attachment to child's 'happiness' sacrifice his evolution of wisdom. The consequences based on this attachment accumulate where the child starts asking for more and parents spoil him more. I never had financial problems, but since childhood my favourite GI Joe (Rs.32 at that time, ~20 years back) used to be a birthday gift only. My demand for Frooti or GI Joe was replied with a simple statement "Thats too expensive" with a convincing expression and a tone that used to make me think and appreciate the value of money and parents hardwork to earn it. I can proudly say that I have never spent money on irrelevant things like "Booze, smoking, drugs, gym protiens etc". Even a pesticide and toilet cleaner like Pepsi is bought in malls and drunk like water by kids these days. A simple discussion on life consistenly to this date is what brought me closer to my roots and the voice within. In the past, a person stole a few things from the shop and was caught red handed. But a simple words on honesty from the elders afterwards, made me  realize about the adharma that was committed by the guy. 

Most kids do not have a sense of judgement or knowlede of righteous acts by default. It is something that needs to be taught to him by his parents or teachers! But in today's time neither parents have the time for their kids nor the teachers themselves have a knowledge of dharma (dharma is not equal to religion) or adharma. The parents don't have answers to life and many times pour out their professional depression and frustration on their personal lives, wife and kids and teachers are busy only in finishing the course instead of educating the practical value of what they are teaching. As a result, the subjects of calculus and trignometry are forgotten over the time, where they could have been used in their daily life as well and then, life becomes a slavery to corporate houses and "earning" without understanding as to why one is earning. People start doing the same thing that others are doing i.e herd mentality rather than pursuing a path that comes from within, a field that he likes. Many people say that earning is for partying, boozing, smoking etc which they call as "lifestyle". But is killing your own braincells and reducing an outlook towards life based in narrowed prism of primary outlook and attachment to the borrowed definition of "fun and entertainment" called life?

Yes laws have their own place in the so called "modern world" where progress and development have been reduced to superficial fancies and materialism. Even in sharia ruled lands, Burqa clad women are raped and "muslim brotherhood" is violated and overrided by assaults, thefts, crimes etc. In short, The senses will keep on dancing as per those attachments to sense objects even when "external discipline" has been implemented. As a result frustratoin and depression is bound to surround the atmosphere abound leading to chaos in the external world arround!

_As fire is covered by smoke, as a mirror is covered by dust, or as the embryo is covered by the womb, the living entity is similarly covered by different degrees of this lust (lust,greed, jealousy etc). Thus the wise living entity's pure consciousness becomes covered by his eternal enemy in the form of lust, which is never satisfied and which burns like fire. The senses, the mind and the intelligence are the sitting places of this lust. Through them lust covers the real knowledge of the living entity and bewilders him. Therefore, O Arjuna, best of the Bhāratas, in the very beginning curb this great symbol of sin by regulating the senses, and slay this destroyer of knowledge and self-realization. (BG 3.38-41)_

Some will call my post as religious, some will call it as political, some will tag it conservative. But I wish people could read, reason and understand without tagging, dissecting and thereafter grabbing the essence in its completeness.


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 4, 2013)

^^you are wrong about discipline not related to fear.it is true that that fear is not the ideal way for discipline but it is also true that not every human being has same intellectual/spiritual level(in fact majority in our country falls in this category only & you should know it better) & for such people fear is a good way to instill discipline.maybe later when our human society has evolved to a greater intellectual/spiritual level fear won't be necessary for discipline but until then hard reality demands it.


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## rhitwick (Sep 4, 2013)

mediator said:


> Today, from the very childhood a kid is made to believe that he has high dreams. His material desires are fulfilled by parents who out of their attachment to child's 'happiness' sacrifice his evolution of wisdom. The consequences based on this attachment accumulate where the child starts asking for more and parents spoil him more. I never had financial problems, but since childhood my favourite GI Joe (Rs.32 at that time, ~20 years back) used to be a birthday gift only. My demand for Frooti or GI Joe was replied with a simple statement "Thats too expensive" with a convincing expression and a tone that used to make me think and appreciate the value of money and parents hardwork to earn it. I can proudly say that I have never spent money on irrelevant things like "Booze, smoking, drugs, gym protiens etc". Even a pesticide and toilet cleaner like Pepsi is bought in malls and drunk like water by kids these days. A simple discussion on life consistenly to this date is what brought me closer to my roots and the voice within. In the past, a person stole a few things from the shop and was caught red handed. But a simple words on honesty from the elders afterwards, made me  realize about the adharma that was committed by the guy.
> 
> Most kids do not have a sense of judgement or knowlede of righteous acts by default. It is something that needs to be taught to him by his parents or teachers! But in today's time neither parents have the time for their kids nor the teachers themselves have a knowledge of dharma (dharma is not equal to religion) or adharma. The parents don't have answers to life and many times pour out their professional depression and frustration on their personal lives, wife and kids and teachers are busy only in finishing the course instead of educating the practical value of what they are teaching. As a result, the subjects of calculus and trignometry are forgotten over the time, where they could have been used in their daily life as well and then, life becomes a slavery to corporate houses and "earning" without understanding as to why one is earning. People start doing the same thing that others are doing i.e herd mentality rather than pursuing a path that comes from within, a field that he likes. Many people say that earning is for partying, boozing, smoking etc which they call as "lifestyle". But is killing your own braincells and reducing an outlook towards life based in narrowed prism of primary outlook and attachment to the borrowed definition of "fun and entertainment" called life?
> 
> ...


I'll call it irrelevant!

Seems you want a fresh start which is offtopic in regards to this thread. Well, let me tell you, you won't get a fresh start.

Time will change, people and the lifestyle would change. 

b/w, I too agree with Raaboo on dictatorship but there is a risk with it. What if the leader is chosen wrong?! We would be screwed then. Are you up for the risk?


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## mediator (Sep 4, 2013)

> I'll call it irrelevant!
> 
> Seems you want a fresh start which is offtopic in regards to this thread. Well, let me tell you, you won't get a fresh start.
> 
> Time will change, people and the lifestyle would change.


Rhitwick, you really are in no position to call it 'irrelevant' when the entire infrastructure of your body and its individual components follow its 'relevance' and the reality of Ritam (Universal dharma) . Some in this thread are busy arguing over veg/non-veg with an argument "its all atoms/molecules in the end". If so, why is your own immunity system fighting the foreign particles without an end or a break? Do they know atoms are fighting atoms in the end? The moment the law breaks the material body which is "collection of atoms" starts to rot away! 

The individual organs understand their own dharma and limitations and work accordingly, so do the celestial bodies, an order within the chaos, where the entire template of your body changes every nanoseconds chemically (billions of atoms inhaled, exhaled, perspired, excretion, drinking, urinating etc), physically (very slow for senses to register), mentally (emotion,wisdom,thoughts, intelligence, analysis etc)! Why do I still see an order in this extremely chaotic template of yours? Your senses are the ones which analze the external. The mind is the one which analyzes the message passed on by the senses. On whose direction is the mind working? You buy a car, but the thought originated in the past for it (2 days back or 20 years back) before it materializes in the physical world. What all factors were responsible for such a thought - 'buying a car'? From no where a thought might come about your loved ones and you immediately ring them up. It could be random and it could be a result of various forces of nature external as well as internal acting upon you to accumulate into a thought and then your body, a vessel acts to carry that thought forward?

So who exactly are "you" to deny the nature of the reality and call it irrelevant when your own body remains a dancing ground for the various forces in the universe and you act without knowing, thinking that "you" are doing it? Obviously, this doesn't give clean chit to the criminals (adharma, due to attachment to greed, anger etc where "I" can be found and hence divisions and disconnection to the rest of the world) and hence knowledge of dharma is extremely important in all the spheres of your life, for it is your understanding of dharma which gives a shape to your karma. (BG Chapter 3, read for details)

After the approval of Indra (Awakened or Controlled Mind) and his help and his victory over Vrita [the obstructor of treasure i.e cows (rays of knowledge) and horses (force and speed), knowledge and force], it is when the Sun (Surya, awareness) has dawned and light pervades. It is with this evolution, the Aryan Man walks without the chains of actions for there is no "I" alone.

_One who realizes the renunciation of action in activities and action in the renunciation of activities, he is spiritually intelligent among mankind, transcendentally situated a perfect performer of all actions. (BG 4.18)_


You are nothing but a slave to the attachment to your desires. It is evident that you have never read Gita. A simple thought came to you to call it irrelevant based on your past conditioning that the Indian science is religion with your existing borrowed filters that "All Religions are bad" and you by default assume and take it for granted Indian science is useless/irrelavant today when in reality major scientists from Tesla, Heisenberg, Fritjof Capra etc as earlier detailed have been inspired and influenced by it and now NASA, CHina, Russia trying to research upon it in their own ways!

This is indeed a crazy thread!


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## rhitwick (Sep 4, 2013)

I wanted to mean irrelevant to this


> Some will call my post as religious, some will call it as political, some will tag it conservative. But I wish people could read, reason and understand without tagging, dissecting and thereafter grabbing the essence in its completeness.


which was posted as ending note of the other texts in the same post.


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## mediator (Sep 4, 2013)

@whitestar - Please read again. I have not dismissed "discipline based on fear", but only given analogies and reality on how it is void when the senses and mind go out of control and the demons rise; and other opposite situations when discipline/force is used by adharma. Hence, revolts, rebellions, no matter if it is British or Congress. Indians never understood that discipline!


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## asingh (Sep 4, 2013)

theterminator said:


> Its my last post regarding this for the sake of Raabo's perspective. It is definitely about you reading the text for you to comment & be judgmental (you did come to the conclusion that these have no value) about it. Otherwise, its shear Ignorance. As I said earlier, the practices can be misguided but that doesn't do any harm to the religion for one can always go & read whether what is being followed is correct or not.


Tell me how many people can even read Sanskrit now. The common man. Which can go out and weigh the practices and cultural nuances vs. what the books actually cite. I am NOT being judgmental, so please be careful what you slap my arguments with. I have not come to the conclusion that they have not value, I believe they have no value. I doubt most Indians even know the names of the 4-ved books and what actually they hold and which is most archaic in nature in terms of creation. What I was saying: that religion slowly changes shape and is highly misconstrued in today's day and age. I myself have seen the Brahmin priests ask the gotra of a worshiper before he poured milk on the Shiv-ling. Is that written in the Vedic books. I do not know, nor do I care. But that is what religion has become today. Is that hard for you to understand...? Which means: those books have no value in today's world. Maybe for you, yes, or even for me (I love anthropology); for the common man NO. Most Indians abhor the keeping of Mahabharat text in the house. You can guess why..! When it is part of our culture/mythology. This is how aspects migrate and change. 

And please stop giving ad hominems and strawmans; when I do not agree with you. It is annoying. 



theterminator said:


> So, we're out of Luck or say Doomed because the present leadership doesn't seem to care enough about the economic situation. They want us to fight like this & garner votes on the basis of religion/ethnicity/caste.


Of course. Correct.


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## theterminator (Sep 4, 2013)

mediator said:


> *This is indeed a crazy thread*!



Indian Economy Going down or rather "Turmoil" . 

I don't remember what were three laws of motion by Newton. Do I care? Obviously, No .   

Inspiring lines btw . 


mediator said:


> _As fire is covered by smoke, as a mirror is covered by dust, or as  the embryo is covered by the womb, the living entity is similarly  covered by different degrees of this lust (lust,greed, jealousy etc).  Thus the wise living entity's pure consciousness becomes covered by his  eternal enemy in the form of lust, which is never satisfied and which  burns like fire. The senses, the mind and the intelligence are the  sitting places of this lust. Through them lust covers the real knowledge  of the living entity and bewilders him. Therefore, O Arjuna, best of  the Bhāratas, in the very beginning curb this great symbol of sin by  regulating the senses, and slay this destroyer of knowledge and  self-realization. (BG 3.38-41)_





mediator said:


> _One who realizes the renunciation of action in activities and action  in the renunciation of activities, he is spiritually intelligent among  mankind, transcendentally situated a perfect performer of all actions.  (BG 4.18)_


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## mediator (Sep 4, 2013)

-----
Anyays, I hope this materializes => *timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/...summons-Sonia-Gandhi/articleshow/22283115.cms

and Swiss money is restored to India, hopefully, bouncing Indian economy to new heights. Btw, Robert  vadra again disappeared from the news. Is it a trend/pattern that  whenever Robert Vadra comes in the news, there is a new scam, a god man  caught, a bomb explosion or a chinese/pak incursion?


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## ico (Sep 4, 2013)

theterminator said:


> Also their piss man... which animals' piss is considered sacred? .


hmmm. funny.


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## heidi2521 (Sep 4, 2013)

mediator said:


> -----
> Anyays, I hope this materializes => 1984 anti-Sikh riots: US court summons Sonia Gandhi - The Times of India



I hate to be defending a member of *con*gress but I believe that the US should should just **** off in this instance. They cannot prosecute an indian citizen for crimes commited in india against other indian citizens. They have no jurisdiction on this. Debar her from entering your own country, sure but you cannot enforce your laws in another land.

And the United States hardly has any moral standing when it comes to human rights either.

I wonder how the americans would react if an Indian court issued summons to an american politician for comitting a crime against american citizens while in america.


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 4, 2013)

@mediator,discipline by force is not only used by adharma but by dharma also & as for Indians never been able to understood this discipline the reason is because Indians never had any(even Britishers chose to look the other way regarding caste/sati/untouchability/child marriages etc unless backed by Indian leaders like ram mohan roy).


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## Raaabo (Sep 4, 2013)

*Indian Economy Going down*

Even a dictator would have a heart bigger than these scamster politicians. I'd like to risk it, personally, how much worse could it really get? Besides, the army also may have its problems, but overall they're more simple, aren't too religious minded and at least are trained to follow orders. Plus they're no nonsense when it comes to enforcing law.

No offence mediator, but look around you, try saying what you're saying to anyone on the street and they will laugh in your face. Like I said, religion may mean well, but who really understands of follows their religions in India? Most of India is populated with sheep following corrupt shepherds blindly, and can't even read, let alone understand the meanings behind any of the religions. Technology is my religion, and the only hope for mankind, as for India it can only work if the scams and scandals stop, and no matter which political party the sheep vote into power, those will not stop. Economy? I'm not worried about that, I'm worried about soon needing to buy weapons just to be able to defend myself and my family from idiots who fear nothing, and groups who overpower individuals. That's the reality... Drastic steps are needed. Advanced stage cancer needs strong radiation to cleanse, and we need nuclear war to wipe out half of us or a dictatorship to simply put the fear of life into everyone and make them toe the line. Even a warped line being toed is better than the utter chaos and lawlessness of today.


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## theterminator (Sep 4, 2013)

Agree with Raabo, Army should take leadership for a while to wipe off the dust that has gathered in govt offices/files/parliament.


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## amjath (Sep 4, 2013)

theterminator said:


> Agree with Raabo, Army should take leadership for a while to wipe off the dust that has gathered in govt offices/files/parliament.



Now in India, its not possible


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## mediator (Sep 4, 2013)

@whitestar - Force is an integral part of dharma. Dharma is neither good or bad for these qualities are subjective in nature. The whole Mahabharat was a dharmic war, where force was used. But had everyone understood the ideals of dharma, perhaps war might never have happened! Dharma is just a term which beholds a profound vastness. For Karna, his dharma was limited to friendship, for Bhishma to his oath to protect Hastinapur. But from a higher level, they still sided with adharma. If your friend commits a crime, then no matter how great you are, if you still protect him or hide him, then you are simply siding with adharma. This does not in anyway mean wise men do not falter. Obviously they do! So you need to understand in what context I'm talking about dharma.

@Raaabo - I'm sure they'll laugh on my face. I'm rather afraid of those who never had science as their subject or pursued science actively but worship science blindly, chant science like some fashion and quote scientists just to make themselves look cool and scientific. But, a scientific mind who can dive into the depths of unknown transcending beyond of what he already knows, apathetic to the approval of others and unmoved by their herd mentality, is best suited to the study of consciousness.

The reality you propound is very much real. But do you think its a permanent fix? Even if a military rule is implemented what is the guarantee that the very seed which leads to what you call as "utter chaos and lawlessness of today" will also be eliminated? I gave the example of sharia for a reason. Much of the Islamic world is ruled by sharia, but still there is chaos where Shia is fighting Sunni Vs Ahmadi i.e fight amongst the various sects in Islam, random bomb explosion (for what?), rape of Burqa clad girls, high rate of depression and frustration etc. Perhaps, we are percieving from one angle i.e military rule and not various other external factors and most importantly the 'cause' of all that chaos! 

_O Arjuna the senses are so turbulent they can forcibly lead astray the mind of even a vigilant person of sound judgement. Keeping under control all the senses, the self controlled should meditate on Me (Supreme Consciousness); since for one whose senses have been brought under control is established in perfect knowledge. While concentrating on objects of the senses a person developes attachment to the sense objects; from attachment desires are born, from desire anger arises. From anger delusion occurs, from delusion bewilderment of memory, after forgetfulness of memory the loss of spiritual intelligence and losing spiritual intelligence one perishes.  (Bg 2.60-63)
_
I know people will laugh, but only if it is said or taught in an incompatible way without measuring their level of understanding and patience. This forum is like turing test where I cannot really measure the level of understanding, patience and interest of the other person and hence the way in which I write may not appeal to everyone. But obviously, I can optimize my style if I know the person verbally as well. 

The above quote wasn't a quantum physics. Was it? And thats the beauty of the Indian science that it has been provided in different formats which can appeal to wide variety of frameworks. Those who can understand as story, for them Purans are suited. Those who can understand it more directly, Upanishads are there. Those who want to take it higher and have a visualization as well of this adventurous journey, Veda is there. But Veda is much vast than the Upanishads or Purans. Those who like a oneness of the reality, advaita is there. Those who can understand through duality, dvaita is there. Those who want logic, nyaya and Vaisheshika and those who understand the language of perfection, Yoga is there. The path of all are same, even though they may seem contradictory from lower frameworks! A child has a fertile mind which if not harvested well starts becoming concrete with filters of ego and memory loss as one ages. And hence, every child must be taught this science which had been a pillar of the Indian tradition in the past and till today in many places.


@Asingh - You have got it all upside down. It is not because of Veda that a person will become wise. Veda is just a tool for those whose 'Agni' is not high enough and hence can utilize it, just like in the company of wise, even a foolish can change and improve!

_
Better is one's own law of works, swadharma, though in itself faulty than an alien law well wrought out; death in one's own law of being is better, perilous is it to follow an alien law ( BG 3.35)

This Self is not won by exegesis, nor by brain-power, nor by much learning of Scripture. Only by him whom It chooses can It be won; to him this Self unveils its own body. (manduka Upanishad 3.2.3, Page 145)

When thy intelligence shall cross beyond the whirl of delusion, then shalt thou become indifferent to Scripture heard or that which thou hast yet to hear. When thy intelligence which is bewildered by the Sruti, shall stand unmoving and stable in Samadhi, then shalt thou attain to Yoga. (BG 2.52-53) _


Veda exist only because of science of consciousness and not vice versa, which in turn enables a foundation for lower material sciences. Do you really think that the knowledge of whole world, number of species, the infinite play of shakti and her dynamism etc can be recorded in 4 books? It is a flow (Ganga) which automatically passes when one reaches the highest stages of meditation or consciousness (Shiva) and hence he becomes a hearer of the heard (shruti), transcending beyond time and space. Hence, it is said that only Shiva is powerful enough to accomodate the flow of Ganga to let it flow in a way which would not destroy but rejuvenate the earth (where man is freed from the essence of karta/doer or karma/actions). Yes, high level of intuition is a siddhi achieved at such a stage which enables a person to have access to direct knowledge. Just like you cannot lift a 100 kg on chest at first visit to gym, similarly a man cannot achieve this science by default. If you lift heavy weight by jerks, it can destroy you. Similarly, many people are indeed intuitive where their mind is not strongly developed to accomodate that intuition and often gets distorted by chaos of the conditioned and uncontrolled mind and hence attachment to such intuition can make them look like mad!

Thus Veda is indeed written by humans but not a human level rather at a non-human or super-human level of awareness. This nullifies the lowly argument whether it is written by human or a "God". Therefore, it is not necessary for one to know sanskrit or Veda. The path of karma-Yoga (perfection in actions), bhakti-yog (perfection in devotion and surrender of ego) and gyaan-yog (perfection of knowledge) seem different but lead to the same destiny!

Words are themselves a limitation and so is the mind. But, IMO, Sanskrit is the perfect language which can incorporate this science in closest way as possible.

Here is the text of Zend Avesta => *www.persiandna.com/litav_atash_niya.htm
 Hymns to Agni which draws close parallels to that in Veda. If you have even a little bit knowledge of sanskrit, you'd find same sanskrit words in the Avestan language as well where putra is modified to puthra, pancha (five) is used as it is, mitra -> mithra and words from sanskrit grammar. The only difference remains that deva and asura have been reversed here.  

Anyways, You may read a few -> Predictions of Sri Aurobindo | Integral Yoga of Sri Aurobindo & The Mother 

The above science is not registered or approved by "modern material science", obviously how can that which resides in time and space know that which is beyond time and space? Like @Raaabo said, you are free to laugh at it!


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## asingh (Sep 5, 2013)

mediator said:


> @Asingh - You have got it all upside down. It is not because of Veda that a person will become wise. Veda is just a tool for those whose 'Agni' is not high enough and hence can utilize it, just like in the company of wise, even a foolish can change and improve!
> 
> _
> Better is one's own law of works, swadharma, though in itself faulty than an alien law well wrought out; death in one's own law of being is better, perilous is it to follow an alien law ( BG 3.35)
> ...




I really did not understand what you are saying. Sorry I am, dumb.


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## Anorion (Sep 5, 2013)

No need to know pali or ardhamagadhi for reading scriptures directly, translations are available in every language


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## Raaabo (Sep 5, 2013)

*Indian Economy Going down*

I would prefer people who read scriptures translate those into their own words instead of just quoting. It's easy to talk in tongues and doublespeak and hint at answers, but again it's really no different from people quoting science without understanding. If you can understand, you can explain in your own words, and in the common language that everyone uses, in a nice orderly and logical fashion.

I have nothing against the scriptures of any religion, but to me they seem nothing more than good quotes, because so many of the sayings expressed contradict each other. Trying to use the words that someone said thousands or hundreds of years ago to relate to the problems of today would be a bit like asking Edison to explain the iPhone to you. They have their place in belief, for sure, but practicality demands that we open our eyes and look about us at reality instead of being stuck in culture. If we go by tradition, we also have to accept Sati and Dowry, or go back to the Kamasutra, etc. All of the patriarchal rubbish of old is whats got us to this point to begin with, where were genuinely worried about wives, sisters, mothers and daughters when they go out.

As for the army rule idea, it's drastic, but cannot be compared to Arab nations because the army has no religion except order. If a Hindu soldier is ordered to open fire on Hindu demonstrators, he will, ditto for a Muslim soldier. They're bred to put the nation first, and give importance only to a commander's orders. Sure a dictator, or panel of dictators wouldn't control everything, but it certainly wouldn't be religion driven, or divided based on that. Would all corruption stop, of course not, but it might reduce. Would rape and murder not happen anymore, of course not, but there would be more fear of punishment, because punishment would be swifter. No solution can ever be perfect, obviously, and we cannot end suffering, but I would rather be governed by the same army that rushed to uttrakhand to save lives by risking their own, than by politicians who showed up there for photo ops, and those who claimed to have "saved" thousands in half an hour. But hey, that's just me, and I don't expect people to agree with me, I just want to state my opinion publicly as an option that I feel is better than just electing the same party back, or another new bunch of crooks.


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## theterminator (Sep 5, 2013)

I think I know why this thread is going crazy. Its because we are technical people who don't know much about economics & we are better with technology. Bankers or economists are more suited to talk about *CPI/WPI/RupeeDepreciation/ForexMarket/RBI/SEBI/G-Secs/MonetaryPolicy/Equity/Sensex, etc.* rather than us trying to be economic nerds. Not a single post mentioned the newly appointed RBI Governor's steps & its apparent consequences  or a discussion over the food security bill when the economy is in turmoil. So, the diversion or craziness was inevitable or it could be that we just diverted a lot!


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## mediator (Sep 5, 2013)

@Raaabo - And your entire post is exactly the reason why the science of consciousness is the need of the hour. The entire divine song (Bhagav-Geet) is a summary of RigVeda, IMO and here I'm trying to put it in my words as clearly as possible with references, and similarities and differences as compared to modern material science (Science Vs God debate).

People looking for good quotes is more like a giant elephant being percieved by different people differently. Some viewing the tail, some the trunk, some legs etc and in their individual limited researches based on their past conditionings and lack of detachment of what they already know, unable to find the complete picture and hence the contradictions! 

You treat technology as your religion and still you treat this knowledge which is based on the very foundation of the same truth as 'archaic, irrelevant, belief, divorced from practicality' etc?

Testimonials and briefings of all the revolutionary modern scientists influenced and inspired by the "belief" -> Eminent Supporters and Upholders of Hinduism

Please read the history of Ken Wilber and where his consciousness studies has been derived from, tesla and his science, Heisenberg etc. I could go on. It is with such thinking only that we fail to realize our history and contributions, unable to go beyond NCERT and then praise Edmond Hillary as the first to conquer Everest, ignoring the help provided by the local sherpas and their family who live there and keep climbing it on a regular basis or when they want. It seems you have made some solid assumptions without even giving it the same time that you give to technology.

Regarding Sati and Dowry, please understand their history and "how and where" they originated => Hindu Wisdom - Women in Hinduism

Yes Sati and Dowry should go. But more than Burqa on the girl, it should be a burqa on the mind, and hence mind control and detachment to desires rather being a subject of slavery to them.

So I tried to put in my own words which was missed and my post dissected totally.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Veda exist only because of science of consciousness and not vice versa, which in turn *enables a foundation for lower material sciences.*




Stuck to modern material science only, can we ever explain how the sages knew about the sun and distance from earth, revolution of earth, other planets, the cosmos, the ayurveda, the nature of different plants? Do we really think that the sages conducted experiments on rats to develop medicine for humans? Like I said before, science of consciousness is as vast one. I have only concentrated and expressed in the best words possible!

*www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRRpUuiPSQY

This seems to be a Dejavu of the "Science Vs God" discussion. You can read more of my replies post#1636 onwards and save me from repeating. I can only request you to give atleast 5 years to this science of consciousness before you make your next statement.


Now, I haven't heard of a hindu soldier doing it, but are you sure muslim soldier will fire at muslim demonstrators? 
Archived Blog: Muslim Soldier Refuses Deployment
Austria: Muslim Soldiers Refuse to Salute Flag | The Brussels Journal

In India alone we see Muslims doing this show of incompatibility with Vande Mataram. What are your views on it? You really think all muslim soldiers will do as you assume or 'believe'? Nation first or religion first? You are talking high about practicality which is good. No offence, but now I'm starting to see wild assumptions and attachment to your own beliefs which are too divorced from reality.

Like I have briefed before, its not the tags of 'Hindu' or 'Muslim' but the kind of air that the mind is breathing and the nourishment it is getting! If people can transcend beyond the tags of religion that they have blindly accepted, then it will become even better!


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## Hrishi (Sep 5, 2013)

Shouldn't GOD and religion be two different thing.??


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## mediator (Sep 5, 2013)

The Indian science doesn't talk of God at all. Yes God and religion are two different things! Even science is treated like a religion, modern scientists as Gods by many and for some technology is religion. For some Sachin is a God and for some cricket is their religion. Here God can mean anything - an inspiration, a unproclaimed or self-proclaimed leader of the masses etc. If its just an inspiration, then you can call also your own father as your god. Similarly religion can also mean anything - interest, tapasya etc depending upon its usage.

And hence I often say, to keep the sanskrit comprehension for words like karma, dharma etc limited to itself or its immediate forks like Hindi etc for words get distorted (dharma is seen as a religion when in reality they are contrary to each other for basic usage) often when translated to English and those who live in the world of English have little clue to the wider frameworks that sanskrit present in every way starting from the root letters itself. E.g T/D/B etc in hindi/sanskrit is collection of two root sounds. For a better understanding Indians (those who know Hindi or forks of Sanskrit) need to redo the mapping from English to Hindi/Sanskrit and verify its usage and meaning and if it fits completely.


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 5, 2013)

@mediator,no offence but i am getting tired of your wall of posts quoting scriptures & playing around with words/metaphysical terms instead of simply expressing your views in plain language.i read & understood every word you posted yet but that does not mean i prefer it that way.i do know hindi,studied sanskrit & read many mythological scriptures but i don't use that knowledge in posting here because i know the situation here does not warrant it.*communication is a 2 way process & a message which goes over the head of another is no better than no message at all.message of gita is there because Arjun understood it else there was no point.*i suggest you to *work upon your communication skills because the way i see it i can express all you have written here so far in 1/4th of words in a language which any average person here will be able to understand.*

@theterminator,i know i am in minority here(i do have knowledge about a wide range of subjects including economics) & i agree with you.to meaningfully post in such economical debates you must have at least 4-6 months formal background in economics along with good reading habits regarding economic & general issues.


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## mediator (Sep 5, 2013)

@whitestar - My posts regarding this subject are not meant for you. Like I said,



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> This forum is like turing test where I cannot really measure the level  of understanding, patience and interest of the other person and hence  the way in which I write may not appeal to everyone. But obviously, I  can optimize my style if I know the person verbally as well.


Britishers understood and reduced this poetry literally to cows, horses, treasure and some plant (soma) which provides immortality and called Indians as uncivilized and barbaric.

Different explanations and ways have been given to understand this as I already detailed. But not many will understand. How many understand 'modern material science' alone to be questioning it from their own understanding?

It doesn't really matter how many quotes I put forward or how many scriptures one reads for the sake of reading or debating. If there is no interest or enthusiasm, then probably you are better off. The human-will takes its own time, some are naturally drawn in their old age and some while they are still young and when their infatuation with the material fades away. Much of the terminology I have put is new to almost everyone for they have ignored it for long and never drawn a curiosity towards it.

So I request you to ignore my posts on higher science.


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## sam_738844 (Sep 5, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> @mediator,no offence but *i am getting tired o*f your wall of posts quoting scriptures & playing around with words/metaphysical terms instead of simply expressing your views in plain language.*i read & understood every word* you posted yet but that does not mean i prefer it that way.*i do know hindi,studied sanskrit & read many mythological scriptures* but *i don't use that knowledge in posting here *because* i know the situation here does not warrant it*.communication is a 2 way process & a message which goes over the head of another is no better than no message at all.message of gita is there because Arjun understood it else there was no point *i suggest you to work upon your communication skills* because the way i see it *i can express all you have written here so far in 1/4th of words* in a language which any average person here will be able to understand.
> 
> @theterminator,*i know i am in minority here*(*i do have knowledge about a wide range of subjects including economics*) & i agree with you.to meaningfully post in such economical debates you must have at l*east 4-6 months formal background in economics along with good reading habits regarding economic & general issues*.



This I of yours, as i have met before as well, is shadowing your so-called wisdom in an epic scale and not letting it show as you claim to have... grow up and confide in your strength of knowledge rather than boasting of it. Just because a context of a credibly rich post is incomprehensible to you, does not mean its crappy. 

Every subject is open to diversify and then again converge in its own gravity, if its worthy enough, and not to mention, this forum, its members and their lenience towards interactivity has so far encouraged it. 

Everywhere its true....and who says we need a P. Chidambaram to discuss economical downswing? half the internet is full of informations like white paper policy, gold valuation etc..etc which any one can grab, read and easily understand the reason and discuss...

...i sincerely believe....living in this cyber-age and claiming.... that "one need to be severely heedful  on some common subject"...can only post/discuss here, is under-education. There are still many articles written on "how to improve comprehension skills" out there...try some...


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## Hrishi (Sep 5, 2013)

sam_738844 said:


> This I of yours, as i have met before as well, is shadowing your so-called wisdom in an epic scale and not letting it show as you claim to have... grow up and confide in your strength of knowledge rather than boasting of it. Just because a context of a credibly rich post is incomprehensible to you, does not mean its crappy.
> 
> Every subject is open to diversify and then again converge in its own gravity, if its worthy enough, and not to mention, this forum, its members and their lenience towards interactivity has so far encouraged it.
> 
> ...



A very wise post I came across after a long time ....


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 5, 2013)

@mediator,then why post despite knowing this.many here already see it as some form of boasting while others see it as just gibberish.knowledge is not meant to be imparted to those unwilling/uninterested unless the desire comes from within.this is a technology forum so if you want a meaningful debate on religious/cultural issues this is not the place especially with your writing style & knowledge.the purpose of a debate should be to test your views against a criticism of same level as that of your views which clearly will not happen on a technological forum.

P.S.*it is one of my rules never to engage in debate against someone i already judged once as not worthy of my time which is exactly 2 persons here(not you mediator btw .*


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## sam_738844 (Sep 5, 2013)

^^ Again a legendary example of being completely impervious to maturity, not only showing apathy to the notion of a "FORUM"!! also by taking everything as personal assault. 

Open your eyes and see, the very section you are writing on is based on a topic which is not STARTED on HW/SW related issues, its a topic of economics, in which you yourself have so many posts...and now that when it diverged, you did too and finally demanding people suddenly to change tracks...! 

If i'm not mistaken there are several posts, threads going on completely unrelated to so-called "technology" and on social science,problems and solutions related to humanly affairs of daily world in TDF..undoubtedly brilliant...every forum encourages it and so does this. even the executive editor has relevant posts on this thread! and you Sir portraying some informative posts as "against" your "desire", "willingness" "intrigue" and marking them as ill-styled! 

Hail to you, take a bow...for the exemplary show of contradiction.


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## udit247 (Sep 5, 2013)

Our government babus create crap policies and rules for everything including FDI that's why no foreign company invests here.


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## mediator (Sep 5, 2013)

whitestar said:
			
		

> P.S.it is one of my rules never to engage in debate against someone i  already judged once as not worthy of my time which is exactly 2 persons  here(*not you* mediator btw .*
> *


*
*I simply wish it was me!


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 5, 2013)

^^forget all you have learned about vedic culture,develop an over-attachment to material desires & do exactly opposite of karmanye vadhikaraste ma phaleshu kadachana & i might just add you too.


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## amjath (Sep 5, 2013)

Vanzara's letter bomb on Narendra Modi causes big bang in Parliament too | NDTV.com


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 5, 2013)

a good lesson to those trying to mimic US/Israeli covert ops in Indian conditions.


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## heidi2521 (Sep 5, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> ^^forget all you have learned about vedic culture,develop an over-attachment to material desires & do exactly opposite of karmanye vadhikaraste ma phaleshu kadachana & i might just add you too.



I'm assuming I'm one of the people you won't debate with


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 5, 2013)

@dead5,i will debate with you on japanese culture & anime/manga but not Ramayana/Mahabharata & definitely not VNs as i don't play them.


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## theterminator (Sep 5, 2013)

sam_738844 said:


> ...i sincerely believe....living in this cyber-age and claiming.... *that "one need to be severely heedful  on some common subject"*...can only post/discuss here, is under-education. There are still many articles written on "how to improve comprehension skills" out there...try some...


This also has a negative side for people sometimes don't know what they're dealing with & what they're writing.



amjath said:


> Vanzara's letter bomb on Narendra Modi causes big bang in Parliament too |




This is no surprise. Parliament gets disrupted on every issue. Not much worthy debates happen now.
Its another storm , with a little sarcasm ,  which will wither away like Sanjiv Bhatt.


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## Bhargav Simha (Sep 5, 2013)

theserpent said:


> In my opinion,They should do something like more foregin companies(EXPECT WALMART) Invest $$ in India,That way there will be more flow of money
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I dont understand the economics... so have a small doubt...allowing foriegn companies in india will get us some dollars.. but at the end when the companies get profits wont they convert the revenue from rupees to dollars.. there by increasing the demand of  dollar and de-valuing the rupee?
Isnt the present situation because of the high demand for dollar in the local market.. due to purchase of foriegn goods and services?!! like samsung, vodafone, vollkswagen, P&G, Nestle,Hindustan lever, coke, pepsi, colgate, pepsodent whose products we use every day for every thing??


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 5, 2013)

you really don't understand economics  companies investing in India will have to spent rupees on their Indian operation(taxes to govt,salaries,investment etc) & not all profit will be converted to $ but only a part & the rest will be used to expand their Indian operation to earn more profit since they will get better return on it than in their home country in $.now this hold true if companies investing in India have confidence in Indian economy which is not the case now.

before 1991 reforms India used to follow the principle of "no foreign only Indian products" & it resulted in India mortgaging its gold reserve & asking for help from IMF to avoid an economic meltdown.it is a well accepted economic principle & also common sense that you can not be a master of everything.*if you try to make everything from toothpaste to nukes you will end up like former USSR.*


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## Hrishi (Sep 5, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> you really don't understand economics  companies investing in India will have to spent rupees on their Indian operation(taxes to govt,salaries,investment etc) & not all profit will be converted to $ but only a part & the rest will be used to expand their Indian operation to earn more profit since they will get better return on it than in their home country in $.now this hold true if companies investing in India have confidence in Indian economy which is not the case now.
> 
> before 1991 reforms India used to follow the principle of "no foreign only Indian products" & it resulted in India mortgaging its gold reserve & asking for help from IMF to avoid an economic meltdown.it is a well accepted economic principle & also common sense that you can not be a master of everything.*if you try to make everything from toothpaste to nukes you will end up like former USSR.*



How about China ??


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 5, 2013)

^^China understood this reality 15 years ago before India & see where it is now.*chinese now buy apple iphone,samsung,sony made in factories in their own country built by foreign companies & rest of the world including indians buy them too.*


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## Bhargav Simha (Sep 5, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> you really don't understand economics  companies investing in India will have to spent rupees on their Indian operation(taxes to govt,salaries,investment etc) & not all profit will be converted to $ but only a part & the rest will be used to expand their Indian operation to earn more profit since they will get better return on it than in their home country in $.now this hold true if companies investing in India have confidence in Indian economy which is not the case now.
> 
> before 1991 reforms India used to follow the principle of "no foreign only Indian products" & it resulted in India mortgaging its gold reserve & asking for help from IMF to avoid an economic meltdown.it is a well accepted economic principle & also common sense that you can not be a master of everything.*if you try to make everything from toothpaste to nukes you will end up like former USSR.*



You have a point.. but one more doubt..I agree they do pay taxes and salaries in the first few years of establishment and even establishment costs.. but then onwards dosent the revenue they get from indian operations go towards the taxes and salaries.. the profits which the company gets are diverted back to the parent company?? 
Also arent the restrictions on FDI making sure that all the income from indian operations are not siphoned... isnt it making sure that atleast some of the income stays back  or is used in india?!!
BTW rupee vaule was 7-17 from 1980 to 1990.. the down fall started in 1985 during the rajiv gandhi goverment. The inability of the congress government, followed by uncertainity at the center during the vp singh and chandrashekar governments; Were the main reasons for the 1991 crisis..
P.S: also regarding the 1991 reforms... the biggest loss for rupee occurred in 1992 after the reforms and now again in 2013. 
India was in cash crunch at the time as there were not enough exports from our country...like software etc. To pay for the imports... We were based on agriculture.. previously we even used to import milk now we export it  Most of the big players in milk are indian companies); we had nothing of great value to export..
And also how did China do it.. its faced similar situation like us in the 80s and 90s.. but it sticked to its policy and is now reaping the rewards... 

p.s: I really meant it when I said I dont understand economics..when the rest of my class took economics.. I had opted for computer... so never came accross it except in business news channels.. So please be patient with me..
Quote from wiki
[QUOTE;2001540]
Revaluation[edit source | editbeta]In the period 2000–2007, the Rupee stopped declining and stabilized ranging between 1 USD = INR 44–48. In late 2007, the Indian Rupee reached a record high of Rs.39 per USD, on account of sustained foreign investment flows into the country. This posed problems for major exporters, IT and BPO firms located in the country who were incurring losses in their earnings given the appreciation in rupee. The trend has reversed lately with the 2008 world financial crisis as Foreign investors transferred huge sums out to their own countries. Such appreciations were reflected in many currencies, e.g. the British Pound, which had gained value against the dollar and then has lost value again with the recession of 2008
[/QUOTE]

Dosent the above mean.. that fdi will increase the rupee value only temporarily and when they get established the reverse occurs?!!



whitestar_999 said:


> ^^China understood this reality 15 years ago before India & see where it is now.*chinese now buy apple iphone,samsung,sony made in factories in their own country built by foreign companies & rest of the world including indians buy them too.*



China uses products made in their country... which are then sold all over the world. And we use products made elsewhere.. there is a difference.. 
When china sells..there is a requirement for yen which marginalizes the defecit when it imports..Also its create money and jobs.
I feel...Unless we increase of capability to produce and export such goods..we cant be profitable like china. But i may be wrong..


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 5, 2013)

you have to first read the difference between current account & capital account in the budget because without that you won't understand it correctly.there is no restriction whatsoever currently for sending profits back to home country except paying taxes.also you need to understand the concept of investment & liquidity.if you are getting a profit in a currency which is giving you better returns(say in that country's stock market) compared to your home country then you will keep a major portion of profit invested in that country only & not send it back ti your home country.when Indian economy was doing good foreign companies were investing their profits in Indian market not their home markets.

*as for rupee value before 1991 it may sound good on paper but remember that it all depends on context.a 10 looks good compared to 1 but bad when compared to 50.in 1947 1$=1rupee so do you prefer the return to economic situation of 1947 when people were willing to kill for amount of few rupees.*

i have seen times before 1991 & after 1991 & let me tell you something that those born around/after 1991 have no idea about the poor state of Indian economy because of the *result of almost 40 years of so called "socialist" policies whose aim was "if you can't make everyone rich then make everyone poor for the sake of equality".*

*how ridiculous does it sound when you hear 97% tax rate?that was the highest tax rate during 1973-74 so if you happen to be a successful businessman who somehow managed to earn 1lakh then govt would take 97000 to apply the equality principle stated above.*

*if still want to amuse yourself with the ridiculous economic policies of Indian govt before 1991 read about "hindu growth of rate" coined by a brilliant indian economist.*



> When china sells..there is a requirement for yen which marginalizes the defecit when it imports..Also its create money and jobs.


money market,currency convertibility,global market integration,US treasury bonds,forex reserves,............

*P.S.ok this is the last post by me here in this thread.*


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## mediator (Sep 6, 2013)

Bhargav said:
			
		

> I really meant it when I said I dont understand economics..when the rest of my class took economics.. I had opted for computer... so never came accross it except in business news channels.. So please be patient with me..


You don't really need to read economics to understand the reality. Most of the Baniyas and Gujaratis have it in their genes and are one of the best businessmen. The growth rate in BJP's service under Vajpayee was much better than UPA's 'rule' with economic cats like Manmohan, Montek , Chidambaram etc. Like I stated before, do we really think that an "oxford certificate" can save India?

Look at these 'educated' economic experts who are literally begging the world/west to help the rupee -> West must share onus in helping the rupee: PM - Hindustan Times 

and for every situation with Pak/China/neighbours etc they are literally begging the US to help them. They will let the Chinese intrude, but will not let Modi come to the top at any cost be it spreading false rumours about him and 2002, create websites like Feku, distorting his own statements through paid media like TOI with full front page heading for weeks and then publishing a clarification in a small section on page 9.

Times of India clarification on Narendra Modi Uttarakhand rescue controversy | Vineeth.In



Now after series of failures, infinite scams, backlog of communal riots to their 65+ years of resume, these  "secularists" who so far coined the term "saffron terrorism" and associated temples with communalism are eyeing the temple gold. I guess gold from these communal temples is still 'secular' for them.

After policy failures, UPA eyeing temple gold for economic recovery | Niti Central
Tweeters tell UPA Government to keep off Hindu temples | Niti Central
*ibnlive.in.com/news/rbi-asks-kerala-temple-boards-how-much-gold-they-possess/419918-62-126.html   

Can they dare to touch the WaQF Board, Masjids and Churches? I guess we are going back to the Mughal era, when temples and people were taxed by the invaders to operate.

Anyways, yes it is quite natural for these foreign brands to send their profit to the parent company and expand business in other countries. The capital cost would be initial but subsequent profits is something that should be taken a note of and how that profit is being used which is one of the basics of any business. On the contrary, a business man living and expanding his business in India would be paying all his taxes to India and employing India which would be anyday better than a foreign brand operating in India. Perhaps, we would make an excuse as there are not much Indian companies for that matter. But thats where the 65+ years of Congress misrule comes into the picture, as to why have they not developed state of the art medical facilities, infrastructure etc? The rest of the Indian crowd is busy queing up to get themselves checked at ill-fated hospitals and Sonia Gandhi goes to US to get herself checked! Whats wrong with Indian hospitals? And if anything is wrong, why not rectify it?

This is one of the reasons why Modi promotes India and Indian brands to come up, a self sustained nation! Perhaps, it is only in the economic theories where economists often impose foreign policies and foreign failures as framework for India to implement similar "standards". But for all I see, Modi, coming from a very weak section, a non-economist has used the best of everything, optimizing the present situation keeping the future in mind to create a Gujarat which today has surplus power and food, creating jobs, contributing to a major percentage of National income.

They think we can have a good meal at -
Rs 5 in Delhi (Rasheed Masood)
rs 12 in Mumbai (Raj Babbar)
Rs 1 in India (Farooq Abdullah)

Whats the hurry for food security bill? Why not open Congress stalls that sell food at Rs 5 in Delhi all over?


Manmohan remains an economist, an oxford champ who knows zilch about India at grass root and ground reality where his perfected slavery to the Italians has reduced the Nation to an International joke!


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## rhitwick (Sep 6, 2013)

@mediator, I had this urge to quote and reply but then restricted myself.

First, if you bring 65+ yrs of riot and plus issues against Congress I would bring BJP's move towards Babri masjid incident, Karil war, Kandahar flight abduction and release of Mushtaq Ahmed Zargar, Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh and Maulana Masood Azhar.

Second, about FDI a lot has been discussed. Investment is required in India. And such large amount of investment are not possible by a single person or a small community of 'baniyas'
And, if someone is doing business he/she would obviously look for profit and what he/she does with the profit is not your to monitor. Only thing you need to look for is if the business by foreign brands are abiding by all the rules and if proper taxes are being paid.

Third, You are kind of making it Modi vs. Congress whereas Modi is just a face of BJP. Its BJP coming to power vs. Congress in power. 
Can you ensure all the BJP allies would behave as per Modi's whim and wish once BJP has won the election?


And, most of all looking at the poll equation BJP is in a very weak spot. No much allies are with it, Nitish Kumar left in Bihar, Mamata has promised not to be with BJP whatever happens even rifts in Gujraat also came into picture.

You can debate and dream of Modi's viability but only miracle can turn the poll table for him.


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## mediator (Sep 6, 2013)

@Rhitwick -

Like I asked you before, how is Kargil or hijack of IC-814 related to BJP Vs Congress, let alone a Modi issue? Are you going to make me repeat or are you going to reply from my post #87, #89 onwards which have been totally ignored by you? Delusion by the word "investment" based on economic theories is not really wise. Why not "invest" the entire Indian black money kept in the swiss for that matter? Why not isolate CBI from government control totally and let it do the analysis and plan corresponding measures? Why did Congress oppose the Janlokpal when Vajpayee was in favour of it? Not only the corrupt Congress has tied the hands of agencies like IB, CBI and organizations like Army but has made us believe that the only way for "India's progress" is through some FDI, Food security bill and everything else that is a poison for India's future and then future generations might argue on similar lines like yours that in past India did not have the money! They want to discuss everything except corruption, implement all their bills except Janlokpal.

 I really see no point in discussing the word "investment" when corruption takes the money to Swiss Banks and then Congress Queen Sonia and her butter baby going on their "secret tours" and "medical checkups to US, Swiss etc. Do you know how much money is spent of Sonia's and Amul Baby's personal and secret tours? Why not put an end to it and "invest" that money? 

I really don't know if under Modi, his allies would behave. But I have seen that under his rule Gujarat has shined more than expected. Why not give him a chance and see for yourself instead of making assumptions and ignoring the track record of the party your adore and voting for the good for nothing, intellect, extempore and IQ fail Amul Baby? 

You made assumptions about Modi to draw conclusions about future or perhaps hint at such conclusions. But let me ask what is the guarantee that AMul Baby will grow up and become a mature, complete man with brains in the future. No assumptions here, but plain facts below -



			
				Amul_Baby said:
			
		

> - I'm ashamed of being an Indian
> - Ignores LeT and diverts to "Hindu terrorism"
> - Cannot read a report which said "70% of drug addicts are youth in  Punjab" and reads it as "70% of Punjabi youths are drug addicts"
> - Says India is like a beehive
> ...


^Part of my post #80.

Why did you vote for Amul Baby btw? Please enlighten me! 

I'm happy that Babri was destroyed for it was built on destroying the sentiments of the Native Indians. What right does a 1400 yr old cult has to destroy the creativity of foreign lands? And what makes you "empathize" the destruction of Babri and not the death of millions of goats on a particular day, destruction of thousands of temples as mentioned in Babur and Anurangzeb Nama and the rape of infidel women? Like I discussed before, 'secularists' are only interested in the reactions and not the actions be it for Babri or 2002 where nobody wants to discuss "how and why" the 59 karsevaks were burnt alive! The destruction of Babri Masjid was bound to happen, if not today, then tomorrow! Hence I have emphasized before, knowledge of Indian history and Indianness is very important in having a discussion on Nationalism, Patriotism and Politics. Yes, Indianness is something that is beyond the boundaries of present India and for that matter I can see many foreigners to be more Indian today than the Indians themselves!

Please tell the party you adore to undo this -> *www.newsbharati.com/Encyc/2013/4/9...indal-SC-issues-notices-to-Centre-Jindal.aspx

Please rewind to #87,#89 and all my previous posts before you make me repeat completely and then sure do as you wish.


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## rhitwick (Sep 6, 2013)

mediator said:


> But thats where the 65+ years of Congress misrule comes into the picture





rhitwick said:


> First, if you bring 65+ yrs of riot and plus issues against Congress I would bring BJP's move towards Babri masjid incident, Karil war, Kandahar flight abduction and release of Mushtaq Ahmed Zargar, Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh and Maulana Masood Azhar.





mediator said:


> @Rhitwick -
> 
> Like I asked you before, how is Kargil or hijack of IC-814 related to BJP Vs Congress, let alone a Modi issue?



So this is how its related.
I hope I'm clear.



> Why not "invest" the entire Indian black money kept in the swiss for that matter? Why not isolate CBI from government control totally and let it do the analysis and plan corresponding measures?


Yes why not? You tell me 'why not'?

The money in swiss bank, is it only money from all Congress MPs over the years or if we look closely we could find some BJP members too?

The money is not coming to India. Is that Congress's conspiracy or there could be some international laws involved? IDK, you tell me.
Sometimes you sound so naive that I do not find what to tell you that you understand what you are saying.



> Why not isolate CBI from government control totally and let it do the analysis and plan corresponding measures?


Yeah, why not? We did discuss on it right? CBI has been used by everyone in power. You can't blame only Congress for this. And, you can't debate on this because not even BJP or MODI promised anything about CBI till date.



> Why did Congress oppose the Janlokpal when Vajpayee was in favour of it?


And why did Modi(BJP) oppose Lokayukta appointment in Gujraat?

And now my question to you,
When Govt. tried to amend the RTI bill to introduce political parties why did BJP MPs oppose it? 
Plea against RTI amendment: BJP MPs extend support - The Hindu

And I do not understand your point about FDI being 'poison' for India whereas BJP first wanted to introduce it under Bajpayee's rule. And today, when Congress not only proposed it but also implemented it suddenly FDI is poison for India!!!

Are you that naive that you don't see the politics in it or you are blinded by BJP bullsh1t about FDI 'now'.



> Do you know how much money is spent of Sonia's and Amul Baby's personal and secret tours? Why not put an end to it and "invest" that money?


Again, why not put an RTI to know that. Rather asking me and blabbering here, go do some real harm in Congress image by filing a PIL.



> But I have seen that under his rule Gujarat has shined more than expected. Why not give him a chance and see for yourself instead of making assumptions and ignoring the track record of the party your adore and voting for the good for nothing, intellect, extempore and IQ fail Amul Baby?


The 'Amul Baby' is still not officially declared PM candidate of Congress. I say 'yet' and I said with awareness. AND, FYI even MODI is not officially declared PM candidate of BJP. The way BJP is getting negative feedbacks from all its allies I wouldn't be surprised if L.K. Advani is recalled and made Pm candidate.



> I'm happy that Babri was destroyed for it was built on destroying the sentiments of the Native Indians.


Gandhiji told "An eye for an eye would leave the world blind".

So that is a right move you say.
A Masjid was built destroying a temple hundred years back. And it was very much a required move to demolish the mosque again and spreading riot allover India. Who do you consider responsible for all the lives lost in that riot? Who? 
Babar? Akbar? Aurangzeb or do you see ghost of Congress even in Mughal era?
If this 'revenge' mentality is being promoted by BJP even today and if this is what is also a by product of MODI as PM....I'll be against BJP till I'm eligible for voting.

If to you killing of Goats are as same as killing of human then I dare say that you might have twisted sense of humanity and I have no idea what is 'Indianness' to you. Call it a 'Hinduness' rather Indianness because your Indianness is very much inclined to people of a particular religion only.


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## mediator (Sep 6, 2013)

@rhitwick - You can call me naive to hide the cloak of utter ignorance you are wearing all the time and using Manish Tiwari style tactics to bury the facts. Here I'm asking you to tell in detail how Kargil and hijack of IC 814 is related to BJP Vs Congress and you are putting my reply on 65+ misrule of Congress as quotes. Are you out of words or are you finding a way out and want me to empathize with your blind support for Congress?

No you are absolutely not clear please explain! 



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> The money in swiss bank, is it only money from all Congress MPs over the years or if we look closely we could find some BJP members too?


When did I ever talk about Congress/BJP regarding the Swiss money. I guess it is becoming a habit of yours to twist my statements to include BJP/Congress and where it is needed, you go on Maun-mohan vrat. Please reply to my post #87,#89!!

Please read carefully this time what I said about Black Money. Can you please state what all "internationl laws" stop India from fetching her money back? India is a big and powerful nation, if needed, can draw pressure on other nations. But unfortunately such a picture is unimaginable under Congress's regime which has reduced India to a state of eunuch where any country can intrude, terrorists bomb blasts and India remains busy in "proving to Pakistan" that the terrorist is Pakistani! Had Osama known of such circumstances, perhaps he would have made a few explosions in India only and enjoyed Biryani like Kasab!



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Yeah, why not? We did discuss on it right? CBI has been used by everyone in power. You can't blame only Congress for this. And, you can't debate on this because not even BJP or MODI promised anything about CBI till date.


Like I stated before (Post #87), I haven't seen a situation under BJP where CBI and other bodies are used against people who voice for the Nation (Anna, Ramdev etc). Can you please tell all the cases that you know of where CBI is used by BJP against its opponents and common man more importantly? Can you tell if BJP committed a scam and used CBI to manipulate evidence (e.g Coalgate) or where BJP used CBI to draw support on Bill (e.g CBi against SP on foodbill?)?

I would really like to know the extent of misuse of CBI under BJP.

Now please do some listing!




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> And why did Modi(BJP) oppose Lokayukta appointment in Gujraat?


Like I quoted and like you ignored -> Gujarat Lokayukta: Myths Vs Facts




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> And I do not understand your point about FDI being 'poison' for India whereas BJP first wanted to introduce it under Bajpayee's rule. And today, when Congress not only proposed it but also implemented it suddenly FDI is poison for India!!!


PLease read -> 
A response to those who support FDI in Retail | Friends of BJP




			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> When Govt. tried to amend the RTI bill *to introduce political parties* why did BJP MPs oppose it?
> Plea against RTI amendment: BJP MPs extend support - The Hindu


Rhitwick, I request you to redo your kindergarten comprehension skills again. Do you even understand what the amendment was? And do you understand in detail why such amendment is being brought? Here's some food for thought

1. From your own link

“The way in which central government is planning to amend the act is most undemocratic mode of functioning. There has been no debate, inside or outside the parliament. Nobody even knows the exact wordings of the amendment. We feel that it should be opposed,” said Mr. Gandhi" (Shailesh Gandhi, RTI Activist)  

2. Read this and remember -> Bill to exclude parties from RTI tabled in Lok Sabha - Times Of India

"The RTI amendment bill aiming to *exclude political parties from the ambit of the transparency law was tabled in the Lok Sabha* on Monday even as activists prepared to challenge its implementation. "

3. Now digest this -> *www.firstpost.com/politics/sc-pass...cted-mps-mlas-cant-stay-in-office-945621.html

4. Research yourself on which political party harbours max. candidates with criminals records!




			
				rhitiwck said:
			
		

> Gandhiji told "An eye for an eye would leave the world blind".
> 
> So that is a right move you say.
> A Masjid was built destroying a temple hundred years back. And it was very much a required move to demolish the mosque again and spreading riot allover India. Who do you consider responsible for all the lives lost in that riot? Who?
> ...


Earlier you were quoting Ambedkar to satisfy yourself and now you are quoting Gandhi which has been refuted in the past debates for his minority appeasement, betrayal towards patriotic forces, untouchability towards the blacks (refer kafir), slave mentality towards Ali Brothers, role in division of India etc. 


"An eye for an eye would leave the world blind"? Funny quote, tell that to your immunity system!

Too much "tolerance" leads to cowardice. This is something Mediator tells you and this is exactly what Gandhi reduced us to!



BTW, its not a revenge mentality that you assume frivolously, but a reality. You make a masjid in the heart of Indian sentiments i.e Ram Bhoomi, it is bound to have repercussions. Earlier resolved, better it is unlike the Pakistan and Kashmir issue that Nehru/Gandhi left us with which is like a 200 kg weight tied to India in economic marathon and killing Indian soldiers as well as Kashmiris everyday!


BTW, you conveniently left this link -> *www.newsbharati.com/Encyc/2013/4/9...indal-SC-issues-notices-to-Centre-Jindal.aspx


Please enlighten us as to why Congress demolished this 400 yr old mosque? Any bright ideas on secularism?

I was not here to debate on behalf of BJP for my stance is pro-Modi and anti-Congress, but still I would like you to continue and let the rumours dissolve.

BTW, I still don't understand why you voted for Amul Baby or perhaps you vote with a confused state of mind? Please read my previous reply again on Amul Baby and his characteristics, his future and my questions seeking some guarantees!

Now I ask you again, to reply to my post #87,#89 instead of running away calling me "naive" as your only intellectual reply and to suit yourself!


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## snap (Sep 6, 2013)

@mediator

indian sentiments?? or more likely hindu sentiments, a masjid built hundreds of years before the formation of india was destroyed after the independence. by your recent post it feels like you are actually threatened by the minorities



> I beg to differ here.
> You are telling the scriptures were written keeping ‘India’ in mind. This is not Indianness. You just can’t point out and say this particular thing is from original and ancient India. When ‘India’ was not invaded by any other race. This particular scripture or ritual is pure Indian. You can’t, you know.
> Why? Because at that time there was no ‘India’. India is a new concept. The nation was not even in its preset from. The maps and territories marked for different countries were different then.
> Refer here : The Formation of India:
> ...


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## Raaabo (Sep 6, 2013)

*Indian Economy Going down*

Purely my personal opinion, much like those of you who support either of the major parties are posting.

If you sit and argue over who's clean, you only throw muck on yourself. The popular tag "sab chor hain" is perhaps the closest to the truth, but even that is not completely accurate, as I am sure there are some politicians who are clean. However, no party is clean. Mediator, go walk into your BJP local office and demand to know what they have done for your area, and you will get slapped for "demanding" anything. They are first class citizens, and you aren't - unless of course you're involved in politics yourself. Same applies for those who support congress, shiv sena, whoever. Try telling a politician, or a corporator, or even a local party representative to follow the law when his car jumps a red light - even if you start your reprimand with "I am a supporter of your party", see the reply you get. All parties have goondas in their cadre who could not give a rats a$$ about you or your problems, they only want power to be able to bully others - you included.

Where does all the false support come from? What is this arm chair politics we all seem to conduct? For every negative news / investigative piece one finds online against the Congress, there is another against the BJP. How are we so selective in absorbing such information? If a channel / paper breaks BJP scams it is a Congress mouthpiece, and vice versa, depending on your pre-conceived loyalties? What makes us believe that certain states are better than others? For every happy person in a state there are a 100 sufferers. Are we so blind that we cannot see that life in India is harder than ever before, regardless of which state and which political party leads that state.

All of these political parties are nothing more than a reality tv show - they posture and pose and say things to raise popularity. Our democracy has been reduced to just another Big Boss episode, but the only difference is, on Big Boss someone you don't care about but vote for gets money and doesn't affect you, whereas, in this latest show, we are the biggest losers. Where are the people who say, I will vote for <party/candidate>, but only if they can persuade me by ACTION over the remaining months that they care more about India and Indians than their rivals? Where are the people who post both good and bad about every party and their actions? Most of these debates seem to be fanboy-vs-fanboy, and from the Windows vs Linux and Apple vs Microsoft, etc., fights you have seen on this forum you already know its just a huge pointless waste of time.

I have a problem with people who can say today, "I will vote for XYZ". What about their actions from today until voting day, doesn't that matter? You are all so sure as to who the next PM should be already, and willing to hand out the one weapon you have against corruption and vote bank politics today, right this instant? Why not Aam Aadmi Party, or the Left, or independent candidates, etc, none of those matter? Look at what they have done for you in your locality, approach them with suggestions for improvement, and then vote for the party who seems to care the most about you - is my suggestion. The looting at the centre will continue regardless of which symbol is in power, I just want life around me to improve, as should you.


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## rhitwick (Sep 6, 2013)

mediator said:


> @rhitwick - You can call me naive to hide the cloak of utter ignorance you are wearing all the time and using Manish Tiwari style tactics to bury the facts. Here I'm asking you to tell in detail how Kargil and hijack of IC 814 is related to BJP Vs Congress and you are putting my reply on 65+ misrule of Congress as quotes. Are you out of words or are you finding a way out and want me to empathize with your blind support for Congress?
> 
> No you are absolutely not clear please explain!


Uh it is thus.
As per you if any riot, or administrative failure happened under the rule of Congress and that is a failure of Congress, applying the same rule any and all mishaps happened under the rule of BJP is a failure of BJP.
I hope now you understand.





> When did I ever talk about Congress/BJP regarding the Swiss money. I guess it is becoming a habit of yours to twist my statements to include BJP/Congress and where it is needed, you go on Maun-mohan vrat. Please reply to my post #87,#89!!


You accused why Indian Govt. does not invest entire black money? Right now Indian Govt. is run by Congress and hence indirectly you are pointing to Congress. 
I'm seriously tired of spoonfeeding you these things.



> Please read carefully this time what I said about Black Money. Can you please state what all "internationl laws" stop India from fetching her money back? India is a big and powerful nation, if needed, can draw pressure on other nations.


I, rather answering to you here (which would be mocked by you) ask you a question.
I guess you've already figured out how black money can be brought to India, may I have the detailed plan here. Please don't evade this any mockery or attacks. Either you say how exactly black money can be brought to India or you never raise this topic again.



> Had Osama known of such circumstances, perhaps he would have made a few explosions in India only and enjoyed Biryani like Kasab!


And, obviously Osama didn't know this which is already figured out by you. Cool.




> Like I stated before (Post #87), I haven't seen a situation under BJP where CBI and other bodies are used against people who voice for the Nation (Anna, Ramdev etc). Can you please tell all the cases that you know of where CBI is used by BJP against its opponents and common man more importantly? Can you tell if BJP committed a scam and used CBI to manipulate evidence (e.g Coalgate) or where BJP used CBI to draw support on Bill (e.g CBi against SP on foodbill?)?
> I would really like to know the extent of misuse of CBI under BJP.


I'll come back to this later. Right now I've very low information on this. Till then you are allowed to mock me with this.




> Like I quoted and like you ignored -> Gujarat Lokayukta: Myths Vs Facts


And then what about this?
Governor returns Gujarat Lokayukta Bill again - Indian Express
Your expert opinion on Gujrat Govt.'s proposed bill?!


PLease read -> 
A response to those who support FDI in Retail | Friends of BJP
I read that. Though a link of a BJP oriented site, IDK how to believe there. 
So, according to site BJP thought of giving Education and building national highway higher priority that FDI bill. Sure why not. But its a bill that BJP proposed. So what were they thinking when the bill was in formation or they suddenly realised road and education are also required in India.
Same bill is now reintroduced and passed. I see only politics in opposing it. Nothing else.




> Rhitwick, I request you to redo your kindergarten comprehension skills again. Do you even understand what the amendment was? And do you understand in detail why such amendment is being brought? Here's some food for thought
> 
> 1. From your own link
> 
> ...


Ah, I failed in research.
Why not you post a comparison list of corrupt politicians of each party in question here.




> Earlier you were quoting Ambedkar to satisfy yourself and now you are quoting Gandhi which has been refuted in the past debates for his minority appeasement, betrayal towards patriotic forces, untouchability towards the blacks (refer kafir), slave mentality towards Ali Brothers, role in division of India etc.


I fail to see the point here.
Are you telling me that If I quoted Ambedkar once I must quote him always or what?
Or I've ended up quoting every person that is in your bad book. If that is the case, sorry can't lead my life 'YOUR' way. 




> "An eye for an eye would leave the world blind"? Funny quote, tell that to your immunity system!


What is funny in that? 
Please explain.



> Too much "tolerance" leads to cowardice. This is something Mediator tells you and this is exactly what Gandhi reduced us to!


Aha! Wonderful!
You consider yourself comparable to Gandhi! Cool. 

Gandhi always told about non-violence and I believe in that too. What a certain extremist mediator thinks about right or wrong is irrelevant to me.




> BTW, its not a revenge mentality that you assume frivolously, but a reality. You make a masjid in the heart of Indian sentiments i.e Ram Bhoomi, it is bound to have repercussions.


Fortunately for you but unfortunately for many Indian of that time BJP took the responsibility to bring Justice to a certain imagined character of a fantasy story. All the deaths and torments were justified because a certain area of land is now reclaimed (not even reclaimed though, case pending in court). 
Its a revenge mentality. It was always a revenge mentality and it'll always be.




> BTW, you conveniently left this link -> *www.newsbharati.com/Encyc/2013/4/9...indal-SC-issues-notices-to-Centre-Jindal.aspx
> Please enlighten us as to why Congress demolished this 400 yr old mosque? Any bright ideas on secularism?


I do not work for Congress and neither they informed me while doing that. I've no idea why it was done and if 'Amul baby' was involved in that.
I think they wanted to start a riot just to get even with BJP, but failed miserably. Poor Congress.




> I was not here to debate on behalf of BJP for my stance is pro-Modi and anti-Congress, but still I would like you to continue and let the rumours dissolve.


Understand this clearly, Modi without BJP is nothing. Modi is hailed as PM only because BJP wanted him to be. Its not Modi is the right candidate for PM rather BJP wants to come to power and none but MODI has that impression over nation today to win them the throne.



> BTW, I still don't understand why you voted for Amul Baby or perhaps you vote with a confused state of mind? Please read my previous reply again on Amul Baby and his characteristics, his future and my questions seeking some guarantees!


Told once and I would repeat once more, if you look closely the voting option has only his name from Congress party. He who created this thread forgot to include other netas.
Who would I voted for if there were other options?
I would take the liberty here ans say that if congress want to be in power and want to clean some of its image, propose Nitish Kumar to Join congress and name him PM candidate.
From congress I would vote for Manmohan if he stands again.
Rahul, IDK....he lacks experience in politics. IMO not ideal for PM, may be 10 years later. IDK what congress would decide.



> Now I ask you again, to reply to my post #87,#89 instead of running away calling me "naive" as your only intellectual reply and to suit yourself!


Ok...if you insist this much I'll give it a chance.


----------



## amjath (Sep 6, 2013)

Completely agree with Raaabo but what if politician around my locality are all jerks and fit for nothing. Dont vote???

There are places where even a single person don't go to vote cause they don't want corruptive politicians.

Why can't we do something like that?? Is it impossible


----------



## Raaabo (Sep 6, 2013)

*Indian Economy Going down*

I am all for the "none of the above" clause - providing it means that if majority vote for none of the above none of those standing will ever be allowed to stand again. But parties will never allow this, just as they all come together against the Supreme Court to keep criminals in their parties.

I still have enough faith in humanity to know that there is always one local representative who is better than the others, vote for him or her. But do your research locally instead of just sitting online and reading popular news stories or being swayed by pr campaigns. You buy technology products only after reading reviews by us, although there aren't unbiased testing methodologies for politicians yet, why not let your life experience decide based on review of facts only. 

Also, its often a process of elimination. Is the road outside your house paved? Do you get water and electric supply properly, is policing done in your area, how would you rate the quality of life in general? Who is in power now, and who was in power 5/10 years ago, was there noticeable improvement when a person from one party was in charge, or was it pretty much the same? Give a new guy a chance, listen to his election promises, don't forget, and judge him or her based on delivering those promises. If you have always been cheated when buying one brand, you switch to another in hope, if you are cheated again, you try a third. It's not ideal, it's just what we have. Democracy is a joke here sadly, because even with RTI, asking tough questions just gets you shot... Most often, we just try to find the lesser evil, rather than the right party. I for one have completely lost faith in all major parties. I hope there are independents standing for election, but I still have to hear them speak before deciding who my vote goes to, sadly, most already seem to have made up their minds one way or another, by falling into this false sense of fear put into their heads based on religion, by parties who call themselves secular! 

I am ashamed to admit that when the parliament was attacked, all I could think of was, "Yes, now you ba$tard$ know the fear we live in, in Mumbai, where bomb blasts and terrorism is almost normal. Finally the damn terrorists are targeting the right people instead of us innocents!" It's sad that these so called leaders have driven us simple folk into wishing nothing more than being able to watch these politicians run for cover and perhaps even be torn to shreds - because that's the only justice and way out of this mess that we can think of.


----------



## Bhargav Simha (Sep 6, 2013)

Dont understand one thing.. when people argue that the 400 year issue should not be used by BJP.. why are they using 20 year old issue to argue against it...
Also though I hate BJP for its divisive politics.. Hindutva, telangana etc. I still feel the demolition of the masjid was not as big of a issue as people make it to be.... Why dont the psuedo secularists understand that the a mosque issue was there before BJP was formed and they only tried to cash it for the elections..
Also you need to understand that mosque in the birth place of a major deity of hinduism.... leads to unnecessary tensions.... It was just a mosque.. which was destroyed not muslim piligrimage site. But on the other hand was the birth place of the important gods of hinduism. Its like building is minor temple in the holy mecca site or a mandir in Vatican...what do you think it fate would be?!!
People would have long forgotten it.. if not for the psuedos who use it always to blame BJP...
If you guys were truly secular you wouldnt mind if a mosque was destroyed would you... and more over when it hurts the sentiments of millions of people.. causing un-necessary tension.
Stop debating about past and think about the people who are alive and the generations yet to come....
BTW I hate BJP as much as I hate Congress... Most of the party consists of puny leaders.. excluding vajpayee or modi. The only way they know to get into power is to divide people..
On one hand we have the party which plays with you and your future and on the other hand the party which plays with your sentiments...
I really wish communist movement should rise up again...wipe these two out..



Raaabo said:


> I am all for the "none of the above" clause - providing it means that if majority vote for none of the above none of those standing will ever be allowed to stand again. But parties will never allow this, just as they all come together against the Supreme Court to keep criminals in their parties.
> 
> I still have enough faith in humanity to know that there is always one local representative who is better than the others, vote for him or her. But do your research locally instead of just sitting online and reading popular news stories or being swayed by pr campaigns. You buy technology products only after reading reviews by us, although there aren't unbiased testing methodologies for politicians yet, why not let your life experience decide based on review of facts only.
> 
> Also, its often a process of elimination. Is the road outside your house paved? Do you get water and electric supply properly, is policing done in your area, how would you rate the quality of life in general? Who is in power now, and who was in power 5/10 years ago, was there noticeable improvement when a person from one party was in charge, or was it pretty much the same? Give a new guy a chance, listen to his election promises, don't forget, and judge him or her based on delivering those promises. If you have always been cheated when buying one brand, you switch to another in hope, if you are cheated again, you try a third. It's not ideal, it's just what we have. Democracy is a joke here sadly, because even with RTI, asking tough questions just gets you shot... Most often, we just try to find the lesser evil, rather than the right party. I for one have completely lost faith in all major parties. I hope there are independents standing for election, but I still have to hear them speak before deciding who my vote goes to, sadly, most already seem to have made up their minds one way or another, by falling into this false sense of fear put into their heads based on religion, by parties who call themselves secular!



What do you think of a recall option... people should be able to recall a representative after half of his tenure. Also the recalled representative should not be allowed to enter any elections for the next 5 r 10 years. A particular number of petetions should be mandatory for the recall, one for each voter id; which in turn would be presented before the election comission. The election commission then decides and arranges recall election if necessary?!


----------



## dashing.sujay (Sep 6, 2013)

amjath said:


> Completely agree with Raaabo but what if politician around my locality are all jerks and fit for nothing. Dont vote???
> 
> Why can't we do something like that?? Is it impossible



It's being discussed since long time and still discussed. I vaguely remember that this option of "None of these" was in-the-rounds during last common election, but as you know, something anti-neta policy is very very tough to pass.



Raaabo said:


> I am all for the "none of the above" clause - providing it means that if majority vote for none of the above none of those standing will ever be allowed to stand again.



Don't you think your "clasue" is a very impractical option ? If all the contesting parties are barred from contesting ahead (barring person will have no affect), it will cause a situation of instability as how will parties by organised in nos in such a short notice ? I agree most of the "other" parties would be fully corrupt, but there must be some, which is the "least", if not zero.

And expecting a zero corrupt party is expecting 100% truth in this world, which is just hypothetical. 100% truth/honesty/correctness may exist in an individual, but in a group, it can't, as a group isn't ruled by a single voice, and it's _de facto _that if there is some good in this world, some bad is also there.



Bhargav Simha said:


> Dont understand one thing.. when people argue that the 400 year issue should not be used by BJP.. why are they using 20 year old issue to argue against it...
> Also though I hate BJP for its divisive politics.. Hindutva, telangana etc. I still feel the demolition of the masjid was not as big of a issue as people make it to be.... Why dont the psuedo secularists understand that the a mosque issue was there before BJP was formed and they only tried to cash it for the elections..
> Also you need to understand that mosque in the birth place of a major deity of hinduism.... leads to unnecessary tensions.... It was just a mosque.. which was destroyed not muslim piligrimage site. But on the other hand was the birth place of the important gods of hinduism. Its like building is minor temple in the holy mecca site or a mandir in Vatican...what do you think it fate would be?!!



The only solution IMHO is to not allow any religious building there. Rather make a hospital.



Bhargav Simha said:


> What do you think of a recall option... people should be able to recall a representative after half of his tenure. Also the recalled representative should not be allowed to enter any elections for the next 5 r 10 years. A particular number of petetions should be mandatory for the recall, one for each voter id; which in turn would be presented before the election comission. The election commission then decides and arranges recall election if necessary?!



And "what exactly" would decide that it's the time to hold voting ?


----------



## Ronnie11 (Sep 6, 2013)

i have to sometimes read the thread heading to know where i am ...This thread is so way out of topic..lol..its getting hilarious...


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## dashing.sujay (Sep 6, 2013)

Our country is out of place, out of state, out of everything, who cares for a thread !!


----------



## mediator (Sep 6, 2013)

snap said:
			
		

> indian sentiments?? or more likely hindu sentiments, a masjid built hundreds of years before the formation of india was destroyed after the independence. by your recent post it feels like you are actually threatened by the minorities


In its orginal definition Hindu=India, a word coined by persians who couldn't speak Sindhu properly and called people beyond Sindhu has Hindu and hence the word Hindustan! The word Hindu is geographic and later disorted to some "religious connotations". Therefore, any person living in India no matter how he is tagged as be it Muslims, Christian etc is a Hindu.

Regarding the linguistic distortions you should read this brilliant piece of analysis -> www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/zoro.pdf

You should read SC judgement on the term "HIndu" itself. 

Yes, you can say that I feel threatened, but try to read Quran yourself as much as possible and you shall find the evils of the desert cult that started 1400 yrs ago. Even the texts of Avesta were destroyed by Islamic invaders! You can voice yourself and create beautiful idols in this Nation and say things against so called Hindu Gods. I won't be disturbed, but try doing that to Allah and MOhammed or the Islamic leaders or the rulers, create idols or whatever creativity comes to your mind in lands ruled by Sharia and you just might understand. Perhaps you cannot empathize the situation and do not know the reality that is surfacing in parts like Kashmir, Kerela, West bengal, Assam etc. Perhaps you do not know that Afghanistan (Up-gaan-stan, land of divine songs, gandharva) was also once a land of creativity and science just like the land of Ahura Mazda, place associated with Zoroastrianism.

The basic Aim of Islam remains is to Islamize the whole world irrespective of the boundaries, 'awaken the non-believers' and finally achieve peace. Read about Judgement Day, heaven and hell in Islam, the fate of non-believers and women prisoners. But if you are muslim, then I guess you already know all that.


"We must remember that the Avesta as it has come down to the modern Zoroastrian world is but a collection of fragments and texts preserved from a far greater whole. Zoroastrianism has suffered greatly from the destruction of its texts. First, in the conflagration set by Alexander the invader in 330 B.C. which destroyed the library at Persepolis, and later by invading Muslims/Arabs and then by Mongols."

*www.persiandna.com/avesta.htm

Like I told rhitwick, read history as much as possible.  It has been debated before. You seem to be new to the forum. So please read "Science Vs God" discussion. "Decololization of Hindu Mind by Koenraad Elst" would also suffice.



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Uh it is thus.
> As per you if any riot, or administrative failure happened under the rule of Congress and that is a failure of Congress, applying the same rule any and all mishaps happened under the rule of BJP is a failure of BJP.
> I hope now you understand.



There is a difference between genocide and riots. Modi, the accused, has been given clean chit on it (2002), and Congress not (1984)! 2002 was a riot, 1984  was not. It was a state sponsored genocide where Rajiv Gandhi stated "When a great tree falls, earth will shake". I hope this simple English is clear to you.



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> You accused why Indian Govt. does not invest entire black money? Right now Indian Govt. is run by Congress and hence indirectly you are pointing to Congress.
> I'm seriously tired of spoonfeeding you these things.


I don't know why it is destroying your peace when I point towards Congress. I'm simply asking about the black money, not of about "who" that money belongs to, where you have forcefully inserted BJP/COngress accounts to it!

The Onus is on COngress right now, if it had been BJP onus would on BJP then. It is as simple. If you can't swallow the reality, then tell Khangress to disappear!



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> I, rather answering to you here (which would be mocked by you) ask you a question.
> I guess you've already figured out how black money can be brought to India, may I have the detailed plan here. Please don't evade this any mockery or attacks. Either you say how exactly black money can be brought to India or you never raise this topic again.


I can't mock you for you belong to the service of Royal Prince, the Amul Baby. But you remind me of Renuka Chaudhary here who when questioned about terrorism and corruption replies back with Saas-Bahu kind of mannerism "Does BJP has a magic wand to solve all this?"

Anyways, you were supposed to list the "internationl laws" which could stop India from fetching her money back.



			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> And then what about this?
> Governor returns Gujarat Lokayukta Bill again - Indian Express
> Your expert opinion on Gujrat Govt.'s proposed bill?!


So what if the governor returns? Read -> *www.niticentral.com/2013/09/03/con...locks-for-gujarats-lokayukta-bill-127989.html

*www.niticentral.com/2013/08/08/meh...r-lokayukta-civil-rights-activist-116112.html

It will be discussed and till then give it the time.



			
				rhitiwck said:
			
		

> PLease read ->
> A response to those who support FDI in Retail | Friends of BJP
> I read that. Though a link of a BJP oriented site, IDK how to believe there.
> So, according to site BJP thought of giving Education and building national highway higher priority that FDI bill. Sure why not. But its a bill that BJP proposed. So what were they thinking when the bill was in formation or they suddenly realised road and education are also required in India.
> Same bill is now reintroduced and passed. I see only politics in opposing it. Nothing else.


Rhitwick, I really don't like to give lectures and points on comprehension skills again and again. Please read the link a bit more carefully.


Anyways, you lost my interest in your post now for more than half of my replies remain unanswered and I was hoping you'd put up some show. You are a nice guy and I don't seek entertainment from you. You win man, I lose!  
--------------------------------------

@Raaabo - You seem to have generalized too much. I can sense a little bit of frustration in your post which is obvious. I can also be frustrated with human kind with their behavior today, low morales and respect towards other beings, women etc. Should I say all humans are like filth? That would include your father, my father and everyone's father. Similarly, generalizing on politicians is not really wise IMO. Some have become politicians to serve, some to tackle corruption, some to cause corruption and earn the illegal way. Perhaps, you missed my very first post.

I have seen the reality you have mentioned and hence the reason, the discussion why Janlokpal, isolating Govt. from CBI and many other measures to reduce corruption are necessary. This why discussion takes place and hence politics and political parties, lesser of the evils, who did what will be discussed. Since you are talking about ground work, here how it goes - 

Reality 1
E.g The Congress leader in my area doesn't really do anything. But during elections he gives favours to the poor like Ration cards, subsidised commodities, resolving problems in their area and voila, you've got votes! 

Reality 2
If it is independent leader, even if he does good work, the chances are high going by the track record of Congress that he will be bought by COngress for a few crores. It happens all the time!

Reality 3
*www.niticentral.com/2013/08/15/mas...-delhi-13-lakh-bogus-voters-found-119260.html

Many people don't vote. Do we really understand where the a major percentage of votes come from? What right do we have to whine about the nation, if we don't vote. So request everyone to vote! If people do not know whom to vote, then research. If still no answer, then see at the national level with factors like - Which state grew the most, which leader is the most popular, which leaders "knows" India etc.

Reality 4
I don't know if you are aware of illegal bangladeshi settlements in Delhi which was notified by Advani more than 10 years back and a security threat by the intelligence. There are not much checks on the Bangladeshi immigration etc. These Bangladeshi are given citizenships or ration cards or shelter etc in return of their promise for votes by parties like Left and Congress. BJP is against this, but if discussed, the debate will take religious angle and paid media will accuse BJP of being communal. 


Even if I go as per your recommendation - "Look at what they have done for you in your locality, approach them with suggestions for improvement, and then vote for the party who seems to care the most about you - is my suggestion. " .....then what is the guarantee that in the end, they won't opt for Congress or bought by Congress? Is that leader really representing my voice?


Yes, I'm not really pro-military rule, but our system is not really democratic or secular either for secularism promotes science and not 'organized doctrines' which would interfere in the working of the state.

Try to research yourself on the series of professional steps taken by Modi during Uttarakhand floods and this is what I call effective utilization of resources. There is a reason why many people from within do not want Modi. It is simply because he is not a politician in the traditional sense or as per common usage of the term, but an administrator!

So I don't really agree with your suggestion and I do not agree at all with your statement - "If you sit and argue over who's clean, you only throw muck on yourself."

There's an overwhelming support of Modi growing everyday, esp. amongst netizens from the days when I was called as communal for supporting Modi to this day where it has become a fashion to support him. A rumour spreads like a wild fire, but so does the truth and when the people acknowledge of what they percieved earlier was wrong, they start listening slowly but steadily. Today, I see a lot of people who were pro-Congress some 10 years back actively vouching for Modi and exposing Congress all the time. It is one of the components of herd mentality where a rumour can change the path of the herd instinct but so can the truth. I'm not here to discuss who's clean, but the truth alone!

Like I said before, the best marketing for Modi is being done by the critics themselves. The more they try to pull him down, the higher he goes.


---------------------------------------------------

*For all the people who have some misconceptions about the word Hindu or Hindutva should do some serious digging of their own or read the Supreme Court judgement of 1995*



			
				SupremeCourt said:
			
		

> The court came to the conclusion that the words "Hinduism" or "Hindutva" are not necessarily to be understood and construed narrowly, confined only to the strict Hindu religious practices unrelated to the culture and ethos of the People of India depicting the way of life of the Indian people. Unless the context of a speech indicates a contrary meaning or use, in the abstract, these terms are indicative more of a way of life of the Indian people. Unless the context of a speech indicates a contrary meaning or use, in the abstract, these terms are indicative more of a way of life of the Indian people and are not confined merely to describe persons practicing the Hindu religion as a faith" (Emphasis supplied). This clearly means that, by itself, the word "Hinduism" or "Hindutva" indicates the culture of the people of India as a whole, irrespective of whether they are Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews etc. The Supreme Court Bench has further observed that "the mere fact that these words (Hindutva or Hinduism) are used in the speech would not bring in within the prohibition of sub-section (3) or (3A) of Section 123. It may well be that these words are used in the speech to promote secularism and to emphasize the way of life of the Indian people and the Indian culture or ethos, or to criticize the policy of any political party as discriminatory or intolerant. Whether a particular speech in which a reference is made to Hindutva and or Hinduism falls within the prohibition under sub-section (3) or (3A) of Section 123 is therefore a question of fact in each case" (Emphasis supplied).



Further, a debunking of those who think Hindutva or supporting India and her history associates with communalism, *A must read* -> *www.vedantatoday.com/index.php/-the-myth-of-the-hindu-right


----------



## rhitwick (Sep 7, 2013)

mediator said:


> There is a difference between genocide and riots. Modi, the accused, has been given clean chit on it (2002), and Congress not (1984)! 2002 was a riot, 1984  was not. It was a state sponsored genocide where Rajiv Gandhi stated "When a great tree falls, earth will shake". I hope this simple English is clear to you.


So, its a 'riot' as MEDIATOR declared it so and that was 'genocide' as again 'MEDIATOR' thought so!
Sorry to inform you I've not been taught the MEDIATOR standard yet. And I'm glad that I'm ignorant about it.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Why not "invest" the entire Indian black money kept in the swiss for that matter?





			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> Yes why not? You tell me 'why not'?
> 
> The money in swiss bank, is it only money from all Congress MPs over the years or if we look closely we could find some BJP members too?
> 
> The money is not coming to India. Is that Congress's conspiracy or there could be some international laws involved? IDK, you tell me.





			
				mediator said:
			
		

> When did I ever talk about Congress/BJP regarding the Swiss money. I guess it is becoming a habit of yours to twist my statements to include BJP/Congress and where it is needed, you go on Maun-mohan vrat.





			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> You accused why Indian Govt. does not invest entire black money? Right now Indian Govt. is run by Congress and hence indirectly you are pointing to Congress.





> I don't know why it is destroying your peace when I point towards Congress. I'm simply asking about the black money, not of about "who" that money belongs to, where you have forcefully inserted BJP/COngress accounts to it!


This is how it progressed so far.
Why black money not coming to India. This black money is something that is accumulated in swiss bank only in the duration of Congress era. And, thus Congress is showing no interest in bringing it home.
Hmmm...so there were no black money in Swiss banks when BJP was in rule. Hmmm.
b/w you forgot this.


			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> I guess you've already figured out how black money can be brought to India, may I have the detailed plan here. Please don't evade this any mockery or attacks. Either you say how exactly black money can be brought to India or you never raise this topic again.





> The Onus is on COngress right now, if it had been BJP onus would on BJP then. It is as simple. If you can't swallow the reality, then tell Khangress to disappear!


Like I said we are assuming there were no black money in swiss bank when BJP was in rule. Thus congress is the evil one here. Why not accept the failures of BJP when it was in rule.
Like things that they could have done but did not.
FDI
Food security bill
RTI
Black Money
Pension Bill

Oh they I know they were busy on building roda and spreading literacy. I appreciate the movements very much. BUT, a nation always have enough ministers to diversify the works. BJP even failed in administration then I would say.



> I can't mock you for you belong to the service of Royal Prince, the Amul Baby. But you remind me of Renuka Chaudhary here who when questioned about terrorism and corruption replies back with Saas-Bahu kind of mannerism "Does BJP has a magic wand to solve all this?"


Obviously mock me and don't answer. 
And, you agree then if BJP (in terms MODI) comes in power nothing will change as they don't own such a magic wand. So why change the present Govt. at all?!!!
Do you know how much a election of such scale cost? Keep the present Govt. and save a lot of money na?!



> Anyways, you were supposed to list the "internationl laws" which could stop India from fetching her money back.


Well I admit I don't know any such law as of now. Let me study that and by that time you post your descriptive step by step guide on how to bring black money back to India.




> So what if the governor returns? Read -> Congress backed Guv creates road blocks for Gujarat
> 
> Mehta
> 
> It will be discussed and till then give it the time.


Sure, its in discussion and we must give it time BECAUSE MEDIATOR told it so. 
What about the case going on against Modi even after he was given clean chit by SC for the riot? We must ignore the present ongoing case BECAUSE (again) MEDIATOR thought so. Very nice approach.
'My way or highyway" right?




> Rhitwick, I really don't like to give lectures and points on comprehension skills again and again. Please read the link a bit more carefully.


I read. Twice. I still fail to see something worth holding any value in this debate.
Do post the parts you think I might have missed.



> Anyways, you lost my interest in your post now for more than half of my replies remain unanswered and I was hoping you'd put up some show.


Ok you won't reply to my questions because you lost interest but I must show a keen interest in all your post (specially #87 and #89) and reply sincerely like you're my teacher and they are my homework. Why, oh why the mighty MEDIATOR I can't lose interest in your posts? Do I have no such right? 



> You are a nice guy and I don't seek entertainment from you. You win man, I lose!


Yeah, I win (and you lost)
Congress for next election.
Amul Baby for PM

The thread can be closed now I guess.


----------



## Raaabo (Sep 7, 2013)

*Indian Economy Going down*

Mediator, you seem totally biased, and also communal. You claim to be "secular" and keep quoting ancient texts. You make statements that parrot the RSS line that since all people in India were Hindus, and Islam only converted, everyone is still a Hindu by genetics. Why stop there? Life originated in Africa, we are all basically African. Why not follow African customs? Life before the Muslim Rulers and the British was segmented wars between Maharajas, and there was no voting, just right to rule by birth and blood line. Why vote? Just find the bloodline of the old Maharajas, and let them decide your fate? Lets get the genetics experts to start testing everyone and divide based on the caste they came from in the old times. Maybe you might have untouchable ancestry, or maybe I will, let's all shun those with the wrong blood and genes. 

What are you advocating? Clinging to a long dead past and looking only in a rear view mirror while moving forwards is the recipe for a bad accident. 

Have you really read the Quran, I have my doubts. I have read a translation, and it's a beautifully written medical journal, written in the words that were common then, attributing a lot to an unseen God, like many other religions, but basically trying to get people to lead healthy and happier lives. The Bible was the same, and basically tries to control chaos in savage times by trying to give people a conscience and attributing to a God. All holy books follow the same pattern, and are an attempt to control an ever growing population, get them to be more civilised, and make them more peaceful. Sadly the writers also assumed that once attaining peace, people would realise that this was the way to live, and continue to do so. Every religion says God is everywhere - which also means in everyone and everything, thus respect it. What the bible says in the form of "do not covet thy neighbours wife", the Ramayana said much before it with a much more entertaining story, because let's face it, we Indians love a little drama. It's not any religion that's good or bad, they're all good and all aim for the same thing - civilised and ordered society. Sadly they're also a very powerful tools in the wrong hands, and most religions are now governed by selfish power hungry people, or at least preached to you locally by a selfish power hungry person.

You also seem to be a great believer in Modi, yet when I hear him speak i worry about how he will represent us internationally. Not that Manmohan is good at that either, he just looks always surprised and clueless and awkward. Like it or not, to move forward, India needs to stop sitting around peeling its scabs from wounds dating back to as much as 1000 years, making them fresh wounds and recreating and reliving the pain. I am surprised people are so easily taken in by PR machines, next you'll be telling me you think the rumours that Modi helps IIT kids solve their math problems every morning are also true, and that he indeed single-handedly rescued thousands of Gujaratis from the floods in half an hour!

Wake up and smell the cow dung that ALL of these politicians are spreading over your eyes. Take nothing at face value, and don't trust politicians that shy away from tough questions. Also I find it unbelievable that you claim to chide me for making sweeping statements about politicians, and then go on to call all Indians Hindus, and insult other religions. Are you sure you're not a politician running for elections? You sure act like one and sound like one. Hoping for a BJP or RSS ticket from your hometown?

I am happy that you seem to be the minority here, and that most members of the forum are not sinking to your level. It gives me more hope for the youth of this country, a subset of which is represented on this forum. Also, please refrain from making communal statements that you obviously cannot prove, because that is whats wrong with our country to begin with. You have every right to quote your own religion and beliefs, but you have no right to call others names, or ridicule their beliefs. By very definition, "faith" is what you believe in the absence of fact, and it's best that religion be left at that - faith, because no religion has any facts that can be verified scientifically or logically. Besides, if you believe it, why care about whether others do or do not. 

This thread was meant to be about politics and economics, I request all members to steer clear of making this religious - hard, since our politicians themselves make it all about that, but please let's be better than our politicians, or else what hope does this country have?


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## theterminator (Sep 7, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> *Yeah, I win (and you lost)*
> Congress for next election.
> Amul Baby for PM
> 
> *The thread can be closed now I guess.*


This thread is not about petty things like you winning something irrelevant or not.

BJP/Modi keeps getting hounded for 2002 by the same men/women who were at the helms of affairs in 1984. Atleast, for 2002, people at powerful position have been arrested (Maya Kodnani,etc.) whereas who has been arrested from the Congress? Atleast, for 2002 , CM has got clean chits from the Supreme Court (people sometimes take Supreme Court as a joke) whereas for 1984 , case is yet to reach Supreme Court. 
Congress is the most powerful party of India , there is no doubt in that, but people should remember that its not the best. They play politics a little too well than BJP but their influence is waning with the rising scams, vote-bank policies, return of some kind of approval-Raj (License Raj days) where it demoralizes corporates to invest in this country because of the delays in various clearances & bribe-lurking babus. The government infrastructure, especially health care , is in dismal condition which every unbiased person would agree. Would that amount to voting for BJP , I am not sure.


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## rishitells (Sep 7, 2013)

*@raaabo*

The '*ancient texts*' @mediator quotes are upheld by prominent scientists and researchers all over the world, including Einstein. 20 million Americans practice Yoga (2012 study), a science which originated in India from Patanjali's _Yoga Sutras_, an _'ancient text'_. _Ayurveda_, the traditional healthcare of 'India', which has gained immense popularity all over the world, was originated from the Vedas, and pioneered by 'ancient texts' like _Charak Samhita_, _Sushrut Samhita_ etc. Western musicians are attracted towards Indian traditional classical music (ex. George Harrison, Yehudi Menuhin), which originated from the _Gandharva Veda_, the Science of Music. The Bhagwad Gita has been studied, researched and commented upon by intellectual giants of both India and the West. If anyone terms these sciences and scriptures as ‘Hindu Scriptures and Sciences’, then I can’t help but feel pity towards such mindset. What is ‘secular’ and ‘communal’ in these texts or sciences?

If your understanding is considered, all the above people and texts are 'communal'? Sigh..! You seem to be very much busy tagging and categorizing by a superficial understanding of 'Indianness' and 'Hinduism'. No offence to you, but it is such thinking that distorts Indian minds, and leads them into a cultural and religious mess. As observed, by the Supreme Court- "the word "Hinduism" or "Hindutva" indicates the culture of the people of India as a whole, irrespective of whether they are Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews etc.."

If in the foundation of a Nation, its native culture, personalities, native sciences are not even considered and given due credit, and are tagged as 'communal', then I don't think that Nation will ever be able to progress to its heights.


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## Raaabo (Sep 7, 2013)

*Indian Economy Going down*



mediator said:


> Yes, you can say that I feel threatened, but try to read Quran yourself as much as possible and you shall find the evils of the desert cult that started 1400 yrs ago.



That's communal. Being for one religion and against another is exactly that.

Who said anything wrong about yoga, or Ayurveda, or any of the things originating out of India. But if you keep going back to the Mughals to justify the Babri Masjid (which, incidentally for some years had both Muslims and Hindus praying there, thanks to Rajiv Gandhi ordering it be opened to all faiths 1985), I'm just pointing out, why not go back further. Go back to the untouchability and suffering of lack of civil rights under the Maharajas, or lets go back to being apes, while we're at it, or cavemen.

India needs to move forward and get over this stupid sense of being wronged hundreds or thousands of years ago. What's done is done, step into the new age of technology and mathematics - which we Indians are good at - and dominate and prosper like we should. However between Congress and BJP, we're being pulled backwards in time every day, and back to stupid religion-based fighting. How are they different from the British - dividing and ruling us all. You either can choose an over sympathetic to minorities congress that scams the people and robs them blind, or a BJP that divides India, has a history of starting riots and also scamming. Is that the only choices we have? Why? Delve into those subjects and it makes more sense, instead of doing what these idiot parties want you to, and being communalised and spending all your time arguing religion, so that everything else is forgotten.

See this thread, and see how fast it went from economy, congress and BJP to for or against one religion or another - exactly what both these parties want you to do, forget the real problems, and focus on age old ones by scratching old scabs and reopening old wounds.


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## mediator (Sep 7, 2013)

@raaabo - Thanks for personalising. But to me, you are a techn-addict only, totally ignorant of the ground reality regarding politics, "ancient sciences", "modern sciences" as well unable to read their histories, scienctist's testimonials and how they got influenced. For me you are still stuck to NCERT where you never had the will to move beyond and verify as to what all you were 'taught' was correct. 

So here's one suggestion, if you are going to discuss with me: Read what I have already posted instead making me assume that tech-addicts are engrossed in their own world unable to read what has been shown to them.

Here's some eye-openers

1. I never claim to be 'secular' as you have ignorantly pointed out without reading my posts and yet drawn unimaginable connections to my state of being. I have given a long history of secularism in this thread alone which seems to have been missed by you. The science of India is beyond inferior terms like 'secularism', 'theism and atheism' for they originate from a doctrine of isolated god, who usually is a "he", "created things and the universe" and has a to be "feared". Once you understand the science of consciousness, there is no division left only.

So basically you need to educate yourself on what exactly is secularism and then realize that Indian never needed secularism. Why? And then perhaps get rid of your herd mentality that "ancient sciences" are irrelevant or "belief system". It is something that your entire "technology" that you are addicted to as based on!

2. Life originated in Africa? Are you still living in the delusions of "Evolution theory" and "believe blindly" that that your ancestors have "Evolved" from some apes? This is been debunked in this forum alone, where evolution has been reduced to joke in international community and challenged by the likes of ID/Genesis etc and modern science by quantum mechanics (Read Tao of Physics by Fritjof Capra). So when exactly did "life originate" in Africa may his highness tell me? I don't even know if you are qualified enough (not qualifications) to talk to me about "science" for you might not take the questions I might put forward to you.

Again "Evolution" has been in discussed in Science Vs God. PLease educate yourself on that debate and see my replies.


It seem to me that you are stuck with the word religion. I never knew the great editor and tech-addict would be that brainwashed by the word "religion".


Clearly, you have ignored half of my replies here which talk about secularism and religion.

PLease read :

*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/fight-club/39882-science-god-55.html#post1732585

*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/fight-club/39882-science-god-55.html#post1733200

And thereby continue reading.


Now your heart seem to beat a little bit for Quran, so please tell me if I can find any other interpretations of these verses

O you who believe, take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends of each other. And whoever amongst you takes them for friends he is indeed one of them. Surely Allåh guides not the unjust people. (Quran 5.51)


“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger [i.e., Muhammad], and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter. ( Quran 5.33)”


Fight those who believe not in Allåh, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which Allåh and His Messenger have forbidden, nor follow the Religion of Truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of s subjection (9.29) 


and tehn you may read a little detail as well on Quran -> *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/fight-club/39882-science-god-55.html#post1733200

Here's a publishing with three translators Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Marmaduke Pickthall, Muhammad Habib Shakir -> Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement


Oh yes, I have read Quran and I'm curious to know here you found "beauty", "medical journal" in the concepts of judgement day, violation of women prisoners, infidels/jews/christians, chopping of hands and limbs etc. And then you go again "generalizing" by stating "All holy books follow the same pattern, and are an attempt to control an ever growing population, get them to be more civilised, and make them more peaceful."

Its an open challenge to you to debate on Quran and find me verses from the shruties (Veda, Upanishads and Gita) that promote the lowly interpretation that you living in based on gross generalization which seems to be a pattern behind your frameworks and thinking which seems to try to understand life by generalizing further based on herd mentality. Its quite clear that you have never read Quran or any other 108 Upanishads, Gita, let alone the Veda! Perhaps you are still ignorant of the concept of sat-chit-ananda which poles apart and contrary to the "fear and control". It is rather a concept based on detachment, bliss and aim of freedom!


I don't really understand of what qualms you have with Modi's style of speaking which is purely Indian or perhaps you want him to use English framework or standard, "proper English" with a mentality that those who know English are only educated and literate enough?

It is clear enough that you are suffering from Max-Muller syndrome here. Do read :

The Max Muller Syndrome: Deceiving Hindus (Part 2) | The Chakra News






			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> This thread was meant to be about politics and economics, I request all members to steer clear of making this religious - hard, since our politicians themselves make it all about that, but please let's be better than our politicians, or else what hope does this country have?


This is fight club. Discussion are bound to digress. Even the mods and gods are not spared, for they jump in between without reading the existing, trying to put their "two cents" and when unable to digest the disagreements show their true nature blooming out in the open.



			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> This thread is crazy. It starts off about the economy, becomes a political argument and is now headed a religious way?
> 
> I know this is the fight club, but come on.
> 
> I'm not here to close it, but I would like to add my two cents in the hope of perhaps bringing a new perspective that might resonate with a few of you.






			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> mediator said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is again ignorance at its peak, at its best. I don't identify myself with any religion, for science/philosophy is contrary to religion. You are simply attached and brainwashed to a term religion, then to Hinduism which was coined by someone else, with geographic connotations in its original sense and now reduced to religion blindly and then that distortion is followed by the likes of you ignorantly and further dicussed, debated and dissected by you where you are busy tagging others also in that limited framework.

If you think, that pro-India is being Hinduism (in religious sense), then you against the very judgment of Supreme court that was made of 1995. You are against the common sense, logic and facts. Pro-India can also mean Sikhism, Jainism, Shaivism, Vaishnavism, Buddhism. Why ignore these? 

Like I already said, 



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> I can only request you to give atleast 5 years to this science of consciousness before you make your next statement.


Post #195


It seems you have totally ignored my previous post, the links I have given throughout this debate alone and now you have reduced yourself to calling me "You are this and you are that"!  Great going and here I was expecting a little intellectual discussion from the "great editor", from one of the oldest admin. But I guess "Wisdom dawns with age" has its own exceptions. You can have it in your collection of "nice quotes"!


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## amjath (Sep 7, 2013)

Please stop posting quran  verses. A single Arabic word has lots of meaning. Arabic is one of the oldest language. A transliteration of quran gives single meaning which can mean many things. 
Ps: I'm not going to debate on the verses.


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## Raaabo (Sep 7, 2013)

*Indian Economy Going down*

Yes I am ignorant, haven't read a thing apparently o wise and powerful sage. However I refuse to learn from people who hate those who don't agree with them. Neither do I wish to stoop to your level, because it's easy to hide behind anonymity. Please state your real name, state, occupation, place of work before making volatile statements. Everything I say, I say as me, as someone who people here know, and can get in touch with in person.

As for evolution "theory" prove anything you claim to follow is real. Proof mind you, and that means methods like carbon dating, and worldwide accepted techniques, not faith. Yes I believe in technology, apparently so do you, or why else are you here. Disconnect the evil Internet, turn off electricity and go live under the peepal tree and wait for enlightenment.

As for this thread, start a new thread for the discussions you want to have, and when I'm online from a PC I will come back and answer all your questions, however I have a feeling no amount of proof in any matter will ever sway you. Now back to the economy, I will clean up this thread later when on from a PC, or mods can do it for me also please by moving all irrelevant posts, including mine out from this thread into a new one that can be titled as per what mediator wants it to be called.


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## rishitells (Sep 7, 2013)

amjath said:


> Please stop posting quran  verses. A single Arabic word has lots of meaning. Arabic is one of the oldest language. A transliteration of quran gives single meaning which can mean many things.
> Ps: I'm not going to debate on the verses.



Not a single prominent Muslim scholar has ever derived any other meaning than those Quran verses represent. Any word can have a lot of meaning, but the meaning will ultimately hover around the original word, not deviating from the essence. The essence of Abrahamic religions is that, 'Intolerance' towards other religions, as clearly and openly stated in Quran-

"..And whosoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will be never be accepted of him and in the hereafter he will be one of the losers.." (V3:85)

Kindly go to any, any Muslim scholar and ask him the meaning. I guarantee you, that they will say the same thing, directly or indirectly i.e. using some cool words or different vocabulary, this is my challenge. I am not trying to demean or disrespect any religion, but presenting exactly what is written, and exactly what 'every' Muslim scholar says.

P.S. - If you don't want to debate, this section is not for you. Kindly don't post if you don't want to be questioned or challenged.


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## snap (Sep 7, 2013)

amjath said:


> Please stop posting quran  verses. A single Arabic word has lots of meaning. Arabic is one of the oldest language. A transliteration of quran gives single meaning which can mean many things.
> Ps: I'm not going to debate on the verses.



+1 to this


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## Raaabo (Sep 7, 2013)

Agreed, but then doesn't almost every religion claim to have the answer to everlasting life in heaven, or have the only path to enlightenment, or similar such words.

How's "the spiritual debate" sound as a name for the new thread that the off topic posts in this thread can be moved to? If everyone's in agreement with that mods can do it, or I will do it later when near a PC


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## rishitells (Sep 7, 2013)

*@raaabo*

I think a 'fight club' is for accepting the challenge and debating, answering the counter viewpoints, instead of telling anyone to wait for enlightenment. @mediator has faced every question and debated no matter what everyone thinks of him, but you apparently do not seem to answer any of the questions raised by @mediator, but trying to avoid them by repeatedly tagging them as 'communal', and again generalizing everything like 'All religions teach peace'. Everyone has his own set of beliefs/perceptions, no one can be completely right, but one does not have the right to demean anyone's perception, even it is 'communal' according to him.

Rather, the right approach will be to answer with an open mind, without conditioning. What's the problem if someone is posting Quran verses or quoting 'ancient texts'? This is debate isn't it?

As for moving, I think posts can be moved to *Science vs God* section.


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## mediator (Sep 7, 2013)

@Raabo - 

You are whining in a very predictable pattern

1. First jump in without reading the existing and time others have dedicated for the discussion. Thus insulting them very directly!

2. Post with generalizations and solid assumptions with plethora of herd mentality behind the conscious poured down to the sub-conscious

3. If others don't agree, start personalising and do the drama of "you are this and that"

4. If that doesn't work out, start talking of standards and "low levels" and hitting below the belt and whatever it takes to run away from the dicussion.


Again some eye-openers for you

1. I don't hate Quran, I simply and strongly disagree with it. I don't hate muslims at all!
2. I question those tagged as Hindus themselves and their mentality on the cast system, Sati, Dowry, Gotra, Animal killing etc, in the same manner I'm questioning the verses of Quran. In the former, I'm questioning a mentality (and acts of people) which is not based on Scriptures or the highest truth/consciousness (from which Scriptures have risen). For the latter, I'm questioning an entire doctrine. Will you now call me as anti-hindu and anti-Islam at the same time? Pro-India, Anti-India at the same time?

Try to grow up from these taggings and looking people from narrowed filters of conditionings, religion, theism, atheism etc from which you have not detached so far. Try to free your mind and unlearn. I'm simply questioning and posting with references to show how the "ancient scriptures" which you call it as, say the same thing and for that matter scientists associate Indian science with quantum mechanics for material science percieves everything in material domain even consciousness, but quantums debunk that and argue that everything is a dance of energy, even matter where Upanishads etc take it one level higher that everything is adance of consciousness even energy and hence an order in this seemingly chaotic world, an order which has been termed as Ritam at large (Universal dharm) .

Read post #178 again missed by you -> *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/fight-club/177085-indian-economy-going-down-6.html#post2000983




			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> Please state your real name, state, occupation, place of work before making volatile statements. Everything I say, I say as me, as someone who people here know, and can get in touch with in person.


Is that even relevant? There is voice behind your voice which speaks before your speak, a thought before you comprehended on it, a voice within which guides often. What is the state of that, real name, state, occupation, place of work?

Try to understand the essence of what has been said rather than "who" is saying it. Do you really see the qualifications, birth place, gender, real name etc of the authors whose books you read? Did you do that when you read Enid Blyton, Secret Seven, Panchatantra or other books when you were young?


You can tag me as you like. I don't care! But read as much as possible and get rid of that funny pattern of yours which analyzes life based on some sordid generalizations like

- All politicians are the same
- All holy books are same, promote fear and control
- etc etc





			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> Disconnect the evil Internet, turn off electricity and go live under the peepal tree and wait for enlightenment.


Again ignorance at its best. I can say the same as well, why don't you disconnect the internet which is based on a science which is further based on the science of consciousness which you have termed as a "belief system"? Enlightenment is not something you wait for!

I told you to read about the history of Tesla and here you are making jokes. 





			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> Agreed, but then doesn't almost every religion claim to have the answer to everlasting life in heaven, or have the only path to enlightenment, or similar such words.


Like I stated, Refer page 265, the chapter on "The Colloquy of Indra and Agastya" from "Secret of Veda by Aurobindo".

*www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/downloadpdf.php?id=30‎

Like all the people are not the same in terms of metabolism rate, skin type, hair texture, thinking pattern, thoughts etc, similarly you cannot prescribe one gym advice to all the gymmers. Who can give the best advice according to your own body and understanding? Who will give the approval as what weight you should lift? Who will optimize and who will allow to proceed?


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## Raaabo (Sep 7, 2013)

Of course, but I have no desire to debate when on the road and on from a phone. All I said was since the debate about the economy is long forgotten here, let's move the discussion to a new thread. I am in no way finished with the discussion, but I do have other things happening in my life as well that require more immediate attention, that's all. Let this thread get back on track, and we will start a new one for specifically the debate at hand. Since googling seems too hard for people and posting links seems to be the only way to make a point here, I will wait till at a pc with everyone's permission lol.

As for my enlightenment comment, I think calling me an idiot because I like technology and find more answers to life in that reeks of desperation especially when posted on a technology forum. If one is so against the new horrible technologies, why use them? It's a valid argument. If you were diagnosed with cancer, why go for allopathic treatment, why not do what the seers suggest. As you adopt new ways forward in life, things change, and for a reason. Either accept life as it is now or shun it, why be hypocritical? It was a valid question, and besides, he's not going to take any if my suggestions anyway, so why worry?


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## amjath (Sep 7, 2013)

rishitells said:


> -
> 
> "..And whosoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will be never be accepted of him and in the hereafter he will be one of the losers.." (V3:85)



The verse explains about the hereafter (after apocalypse). It means the followers of Islam will make themselves to heaven (winners) and the non followers will never make it to heaven(losers). Those verses are meant for followers of Islam to fear about their afterlife because I follow them. If u don't follow Islam then why do u even care about it. 

There are verses saying respect other religion even our prophet Muhammed says it. But haters are blind and don't see these things.


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## Raaabo (Sep 7, 2013)

@mediator you live in a country of varied beliefs, and discussion is one thing, but your posts have the tendency to insult entire religions. You're the one generalising, not me, I never said all politicians are bad, but I said enough of them have proven themselves to be bad to warrant the feeling that a lot of the people of this country have that "sab chor hain". I did say that all political parties are bad, and I stand by that. Purely because if you look at the notorious characters at the local level involved on politics, purely based in their selfish aims, you will see this.

I said you appear to be against certain religions and trying to spark trouble, you called me ignorant. Figure out what's more personal. As for NCERT or whatever, I'm a self taught college dropout, so technically I am "ignorant" but I am not closed minded. It's always the most close minded that call others names. I say what I say out loud, to everyone I meet, in public, and accept my fate. I live my life by my ideals, but I see you as a closet hater of differences too scared to say things in public. I may be very wrong, of course, everyone is wrong many times, but I am just pointing out that this is a public forum. Say what you want here, so long as you use the same tact and tone as you would in a room full of people. Or else it's cowardice and taking potshots from a hiding place. If you wouldn't post the exact same words on your Facebook page, where everyone knows who you are, then don't do it here. This forum is also a society of real people, and will not be allowed to be used for anonymous spewing of hatred. I have nothing for or against you, but I expect a little sensitivity and decency.


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## rhitwick (Sep 7, 2013)

/offtopic but I can't but wait to post. I beg pardon to mods and admins prior to this for not banning me for being offtopic here

I mean, what if, MEDIATOR declares himself as the GOD we all were doubting here. He just refused to state his name qualification but doubted if raaabo is qualified enough to talk with him.
He also claims the voice matters nor the person. So he has every chance of being GOD or or or even BATMAN!

*31.media.tumblr.com/d51e09735ee5c57dc5eaa85124e07e2b/tumblr_ms1ysqwpSv1rg2j3ko1_500.jpg

ah too much offtopic. Again don't ban me YET


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## rishitells (Sep 7, 2013)

Religion? Hmm...

Let me put forward something very crucial. There is some criteria of being a *religion*, and according to me, that is-

1. A 'single' *Holy Book*, which lays the rules or guidance for the subscribing people. For Islam, that is Quran. For Christianity, that is Bible.

2. A prophet which comes to earth for *'enlightening'* ignorant human beings and guides them to a new path, i.e. a path to enlightenment according to him. Like Mohammad, Jesus etc.

3. Name of religion clearly stated in their Holy Book. Islam is the name of religion which is prescribed in Quran. Christianity is the name of religion which is prescribed in Bible.

4. Worship philosophy i.e. in which manner the God will be worshiped, like Namaz, prayer in Church etc.

5. Uniform *belief system*. All the people of religion subscribe to the same set of beliefs laid by their Holy Book. There may be communities withing religion like Shia and Sunni, but their difference is political and not religious.

Now let me examine that the so called *'Hinduism'* against the above points that is it actually a religion or just a term coined by ignorant people-

1. No single Holy Book or Rule Book. Some will say Vedas, but keep in mind that Vedas are actually not books, but *Shruti* i.e. a realization in the higher stages of consciousness. That means that any person in the higher stages of consciousness can realize Veda, or Truth. Moreover, there is 'Nowhere' in the Veda the term 'Hindu' or 'Hinduism', as there is *'No Religion'* to which the Vedas subscribe to. They are independent books. The same applies for Upanishads, Gita etc.

2. No concept of *prophets*. There have been Rishis like Patanjali, Bhardwaja, saint like Adi Shankaracharya, but no one has claimed to be the 'Original Son of God' or a prophet. There was even an atheist saint like Bhaskaracharya, who propounded the philosophy of *Charvaka*, i.e. Materialist philosophy.

3. No name of any religion such as Hindu, Hinduism, or *Hindutva* in any of the Books, even in Epics like Ramayana, Mahabharata etc.

4. No uniform worship philosophy such as monotheism, polytheism etc. There have been many groups in India following their own worship system.

5. No uniform belief system. Many systems of philosophies, sciences, art paired together.

So there is no question of a 'Religion of India', though unfortunately many ignorant people have adopted the term religion in Indian context, and therefore, giving rise to a confused state of mind and cultural confusion, inferiority etc. Today if a teacher tells the story of Ramayana in a *'secular' school* students, it will be considered 'communal'. Such is the poison being injected in the children's minds, and making them believe that their culture is of no use, by bashing Indian Philosophy in the name of religion.

What is the problem if the native culture and books are taught to Kids? Recently there was an incident where a teacher was expelled from a 'secular' schools because he was reciting *Saraswati Vandana* in the morning prayer after the Jesus prayer. The reason given was 'indiscipline'..! Such a crude, intolerant and illiterate behavior..! What is this if not utter hate and poisonous belief?

Many Islamic groups in India have the problem singing 'Vande Matram', the song by singing which many patriot nationalists (both Hindu and Muslim) died for Independence. When the Madhya Pradesh CM Shivraj Singh Chauhan wanted to make a world record of *'Surya Namaskar Practice'* with the help of school kids, again there was a political rage! What does this mean? And what's next? Stop practicing Yoga because it belongs to the so called Hinduism? Stop using Ayurvedic medicines because they are 'communal'?? What a crap being thrown into innocent minds. Sigh..!


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 7, 2013)

*@Raaabo,i have read some posts by @mediator regarding science & at the risk of sounding boastful(having cleared some of the toughest engineering & general exams in India) i can assure you that you can safely ignore any scientific portion of @mediator's posts(which btw includes velocity greater than light,intelligent design,dark energy & whatnot).as for religious portion this statement pretty much sums it:
for those who believe no proof is necessary,for those who don't no evidence is sufficient*


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## mediator (Sep 7, 2013)

ajmath said:
			
		

> Please stop posting quran verses. A single Arabic word has lots of meaning. Arabic is one of the oldest language. A transliteration of quran gives single meaning which can mean many things.
> Ps: I'm not going to debate on the verses.


Like I stated before, go to the madrassas and show this broadmindedness to the clerics. Tell them Allah and Mohammad can mean anything and then see what happens to you. I have often debated this to Muslims and all of them, yes all of them have to say one thing - "Vedas also promote killing of animals, cows etc" and the arguments on the lines of Zaki Naik.

Hence Quranic discussion remains ignored and a dependency created on me to first expain them the metaphors and the riddles, where the usual answer is a "hmmmm......hmmmmmm....hmmmmm".

Let me tell, a high level poetry is one which encompasses different understandings. Thus, in one poetry where a Sun dawns and guides the herds (pashus) from one level can mean the external i.e physical Sun dawning where animals are guided by his rays (sleep, waking up, metabolism etc) and from other it could be internal, a visualization where the awakening starts not by your ego-will, but self-surrender to the higher the higher where detachment and unlearning play a major role and hence with the awakening the knowledge starts spreading which keeps on increasing. 


@Raaabo -



			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> If one is so against the new horrible technologies, why use them? It's a valid argument.


Your argument is as absurd as a statement like "If you disagree with your own Surya, Indra, Agni etc then why are you even living? Perhaps you should commit suidice"


Here's anotehr eye-opener for you -
Those who promote the science of consciousness are not against "technologies". 

But yes, in the absence of Ayurveda (Sanskrit and Ayurveda were banned by British FYI), there is not much prevalence of it. But yes, Sanskrit is slowly and steadily growing and so is Ayurveda and for your knowledge I prefer natural diet as much as possible. Ayurveda does not distinguish between food and medicine. Here food itself is treated as medicine and vice versa! You can take Tulsi, Brahmi, Ashwagandha, mix it with honey and hot milk and perhaps almonds every day. You can have "adrak chai" which helps during cold. But, you cannot live on allopathic medicine all your life can you?

I'm not starting Allopathy Vs Ayurveda here, but again before you make wild assumptions, I don't hate allopathy. Just because one upholds Indian science doesn't mean he is anti-non-Indian stuff. Like I stated, and continue to request you need to have serious makeover of your thinking patterns!

So I disagree, the quoted part of your argument is only invalid but childishly absurd! 

And please stop making excuses of debating from road, phone, engrossed in other works etc. Either you dicuss or you don't. Take your time, nobody forced you to debate. But if you do, read what I have asked to read for half of the "links", that you argue, are my own posts only! Many other links are for references and if I flood it here, you might take days to read it!


@Whitestar - You seem to ignore what Fight CLub means. Even if you see some "boast" in my post, then also your argument is void and remains absurd! You should stay out of Fight Club.


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## Raaabo (Sep 7, 2013)

@mediator I make no excuses to you, merely informed the others asking me to reply to have some patience. Again, I have nothing against your "consciousness" but you seem to have something against everyone else's. I could sit and waste my time quoting each statement you make, find a link to discredit it, and then go on and on and on in a pointless arguments with you, but I know a closed mind when I see one. I have never said anything against anyone's belief, but yes I have criticised your tone and arrogance, and the sheer disregard for any other belief. I have no problems with you revealing who you really are, and then saying what you want, but legally I am required to remove and ban anonymous rants from unknown persons against religions. Put simply, either reveal your identity, or control your emotions.

For those who preach tolerance, I have been chided for arguing with christian priests, and also complaints were also made against me when digit bundled the Sita sings the blues cartoon. Incidentally those were "Hindus" who were pissed, and I immediately apologised publicly, but of course they have posted some things online about me being "Christian", when nothing is further from the truth. 

Sadly I have to also account for legal repercussions, so if you really want to stand by what you say, do so, otherwise your comments are not your own and are just anonymous. Sadly, I will have to delete your account and posts if you continue this way, and I don't want to.

Now I shall get back to my life for the time being, and hope that you understand what I am saying, because I really am looking forward to debating you on many topics.


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## mediator (Sep 7, 2013)

@Raaabo -



			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> I have never said anything against anyone's belief, but yes I have criticised your tone and arrogance, and the sheer disregard for any other belief.



If you think discussing and disagreeing is equal to putting down everyone, then again you need to revamp your holistic thinking and again you generalized! But anyways, how come you saw "tone and arrogance" of my post without even hearing my voice, or perhaps that was also a part of your conditioning that those who disagree with you, then hit them below the belt by "criticizing on everything else like percieved tone and arrogance except the essence of the discussion"?



			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> Sadly, I will have to delete your account and posts if you continue this way, and I don't want to.


As if you didn't do that (banned) some 3-4 hrs back! 

I forgot Raaaaoism is the religion followed here, created by the one who is against religion and criticizing the highest of science just because someone attached an "ism" to it and then whoever upholds it and disagree, talk about the percieved tone and arrogance.


Do as you wish or whatever makes you happy, after all this forum is yours! But here's a peace of suggestion since you are an expert in giving others the same - Administration is not done by sentiments, generalizations, whinings, excuses, hitting below the belts, talking big and then unable to back yourself. But by simple common sense!

You have not only distorted the entire science of consciousness but also made unimaginable surmises and then calling it belief, irrelevant, good quotes only etc and then giving gyaan on hypocrisy! Whose the hypocrite?

Can you even prove that you exist -> *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/fight-club/177085-indian-economy-going-down-6.html#post2000983 ?

Here's an update on your pattern

1. First jump in without reading the existing and time others have dedicated for the discussion. Thus insulting them very directly!

2. Post with generalizations and solid assumptions with plethora of herd mentality behind the conscious poured down to the sub-conscious

3. If others don't agree, start personalising and do the drama of "you are this and that"

4. If that doesn't work out, start talking of standards and "low levels" and hitting below the belt and whatever it takes to run away from the dicussion.

5. If that doesn't work percieve tone and arrogance and criticize it.

6. If that also doesn't work, ignore everything and threaten them with a ban!

Like I said, do as you wish!


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## Raaabo (Sep 7, 2013)

*Indian Economy Going down*

Ah good, yes a tirade against me is totally permitted, as I shall never complain to any authorities. You have my word on that.

Please keep it that way, even if you insist on remaining anonymous, just don't do it against religions and beliefs please. 

Also don't bring a funny post on my site into this, if you cannot understand humour then you will no doubt mistake Raaaboism for a religion. Though Google certainly seems to rate me highest for "sane religion" - no kidding!


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## mediator (Sep 7, 2013)

@Raaabo - You'll always find humour, provocations (for the sake of being in Fight Club), facts, logic etc all mixed up in my posts here except for personalizations which I try to keep it to bare minimum. Anyways, I'm bored with this "You are this and You are that", You Vs Me debate and a tirade against you is indeed very much boring.


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## CommanderShawnzer (Sep 7, 2013)

So much OT........


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## BombayBoy (Sep 7, 2013)

@mediator
Reading the last few pages, you put in considerable efforts to put forth your views. You appear to be a very well read person.

Don't you think that the world over when it comes to religion, people have a blind faith?


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## Faun (Sep 7, 2013)

amjath said:


> The verse explains about the hereafter (after apocalypse). It means the followers of Islam will make themselves to heaven (winners) and the non followers will never make it to heaven(losers). Those verses are meant for followers of Islam to fear about their afterlife because I follow them. If u don't follow Islam then why do u even care about it.
> 
> There are verses saying respect other religion even our prophet Muhammed says it. But haters are blind and don't see these things.



I won't go into the details but there are verses which were told in Mecca and then another verses in Medina. Earlier verses got abrogated in case a newer verse stands in contradiction. So whatever said earlier gets nullified later


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## mediator (Sep 7, 2013)

@BombayBoy - Religion is indeed synonymous with blind faith. Some are attached to one God and hence theist. Some attached to multiple -> polytheist. Some are busy denying a god and yet worshipping materialism, money, status, name, fame and busy calling themselves as atheist. Some worship the American Dream where social status, money, independent living and high dreams is all that matters to them, even when they have money, unable to give time to their parents when they need them the most. Some are busy upholding the unmanifest (spiritualists) and condescending on the materialists and some are busy upholding materialism denying a higher purpose. There are too many tags here, too many filters, too many frameworks created by limited thinking and not letting go. Only if one frees himself of these taggings and mental limitations and starts questioning everything with a purpose of understanding the essence rather than condescending with saddism as the intent behind, then he is bound to go higher moving beyond the words, senses and the mind.

For that matter I hate being tagged either as religious, theist or atheist or spiritualist or a materialist. Yes I have been called all of it!

Blind faith exists for those who cannot question but many people have reduced a higher experience as blind faith as well! e.g an experience of your body and understanding of what it tells you, an upgrade that you can lift more in the gym today is an experience which has been approved by your own mind after thorough practice which is totally subjective to you and you only. But an emotional impusle to do the same is not! We need to know as to what exactly this blind faith is.


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## Raaabo (Sep 7, 2013)

*Indian Economy Going down*

@mediator, I just want clarity of thought, and when I get time to shift this debate to another thread with an appropriate title, it will make more sense and be easier to follow for everyone, myself included. Have I read every word you wrote, no, on a phone with 5 pt font with the long posts made here and links to so many sites and other threads and posts, I cannot. However, I am able to tell when things are getting out of control and a heated debate is hurting sentiments of a community. Fight club to fight each other, sure, but we should try and keep it civil as well, and not be reduced to calling people ignorant, or entire religions evil tribes or whatever. 

Personally I love debates, because they always teach me more points of view, regardless of whether I agree with said points of view or not. I just want to ask for one last clarifying point, do you believe in ANY religion? And yes, Hinduism is a religion, of many gods, and worshiping idols and the Ganga, etc. 

Since I really haven't been around much to follow all of your posts in various threads, I'd like to ask you to describe your beliefs or lack of them so as to get a better understanding on where you're coming from. 

For example, I am somewhere between agnostic and atheist, anti-superstition, and science minded, needing proof of at least mathematics and logic before I believe in something. While many religions claim to explain everything, I choose to believe that we are still learning, and it is only science - which in a sense is a "belief" that has the most unanswered questions - that is the true path to understanding the universe and ourselves. I also feel it takes guts to be scientifically minded, because we know we will certainly die NOT knowing all the answers, unlike those of other beliefs.

Again, I would be very happy to debate your and my personal beliefs, on a personal level, and everyone is welcome to add their own views to that - however lets stick to why we believe what we do, rather than just ridiculing major religions or belief systems. Does that sound fair to everyone?


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 7, 2013)

.........


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## Raaabo (Sep 7, 2013)

*Indian Economy Going down*

And there's another post that I will delete when cleaning up. Let's not make it personal please. If it's in another on topic thread, and it's my time being wasted, and I have no complaints what difference does it make? I think mediator and me can speak for ourselves, thanks


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## rhitwick (Sep 7, 2013)

mediator said:


> I would really like to know the extent of misuse of CBI under BJP.
> 
> Now please do some listing!



Here you go. Now please go through them and analyze it. 

*CBI raids in India since 1999 to April, 2004 (The Telegraph)*

The Telegraph - Calcutta : Nation (Wednesday, July 09, 2003)
The Telegraph - Calcutta : Bengal (Sunday, January 11, 2004 CBI raid on colliery)
The Telegraph - North East (Friday, July 11, 2003)
The Telegraph - Ranchi ( Monday, October 27, 2003 Coal giant gasps for new lease of life - Corruption and mismanagement hamper growth of Coal India Limited )
The Telegraph - Jharkhand (Tuesday, November 12, 2002 Cop in CBI net for ‘fake’ encounter )
*www.telegraphindia.com/1031009/asp/nation/story_2442731.asp(Thursday, October 09, 2003 CBI sleuths today searched two residences of former Uttar Pradesh chief minister Mayavati and 19 other places)
The Telegraph - Calcutta : Metro (Sunday, January 04, 2004 CBI raid on CalTel engineer )
*www.telegraphindia.com/1010721/index.htm(Saturday, July 21 2001 CBI RAID ON AXED UTI CHIEF)
The Telegraph - Calcutta : Nation
The Telegraph - Calcutta : Nation
The Telegraph - Calcutta : Jharkhand
The Telegraph - Calcutta
The Telegraph - Calcutta : Frontpage
The Telegraph - Calcutta (I-T official in CBI bribe net)
*www.telegraphindia.com/1000624/national.htm#head1
The Telegraph - Calcutta : Nation (Ex-minister charged in housing scam)
The East

The Telegraph - Calcutta : Nation
Man found hanging
Calcutta: A 59-year-old man from Madhyamgram who was questioned on Friday by CBI officials was found hanging in his bathroom the next day. Amal Roy, reported to be close to state BJP youth leader Rahul Sinha, was quizzed on a scam related to distribution of phone bills. 

The Telegraph - Calcutta (‘POACHER’ TEHELKA HUNTED BY CBI)
The Telegraph - Calcutta : Frontpage
The Telegraph - Ranchi
*www.telegraphindia.com/1020715/editoria.htm#head3 (Aha Prevention of Corruption Act!)
*www.telegraphindia.com/1001202/national.htm#head5
The East

And, I'll get back to you on #87 and #89

b/w I hope, like I did my homework, you too doing the one I gave you..."step by step guide to bring Black Money home"


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## rishitells (Sep 7, 2013)

Raaabo said:


> And yes, Hinduism is a religion, of many gods, and worshiping idols and the Ganga, etc.



If Hinduism is a religion, then answer some questions about this 'religion', and *KINDLY don't avoid them..*-

1. Which is the *holy book* of _Hinduism_, that lays the guidelines and provides a uniform *belief system* for all of it's followers?

2. In which scripture or *holy book*, the *"name"* of the religion *Hinduism* is mentioned? In which book, it is written that Krishna or Rama is a God in the religion 'Hinduism'. Or tell the name of any 'prophet' who has said that Krishna or Rama is a God in Hinduism.

3. What is the criteria for a person to be a Hindu? A Muslim has some rules for being a Muslim, like 5 times Namaz. What is it that makes a person a Hindu? Don't say worshiping idols, or Janeu because they are traditions which *need not to be followed.*

4. *Kindly comment* on this observation by Indian Supreme Court


> The court came to the conclusion that the words "Hinduism" or "Hindutva" are not necessarily to be understood and construed narrowly, confined only to the strict Hindu religious practices unrelated to the culture and ethos of the People of India depicting the way of life of the Indian people. Unless the context of a speech indicates a contrary meaning or use, in the abstract, these terms are indicative more of a way of life of the Indian people. Unless the context of a speech indicates a contrary meaning or use, in the abstract, these terms are indicative more of a way of life of the Indian people and are not confined merely to describe persons practicing the Hindu religion as a faith" (Emphasis supplied). This clearly means that, by itself, the word "Hinduism" or "Hindutva" indicates the culture of the people of India as a whole, irrespective of whether they are Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews etc. The Supreme Court Bench has further observed that "the mere fact that these words (Hindutva or Hinduism) are used in the speech would not bring in within the prohibition of sub-section (3) or (3A) of Section 123. It may well be that these words are used in the speech to promote secularism and to emphasize the way of life of the Indian people and the Indian culture or ethos, or to criticize the policy of any political party as discriminatory or intolerant. Whether a particular speech in which a reference is made to Hindutva and or Hinduism falls within the prohibition under sub-section (3) or (3A) of Section 123 is therefore a question of fact in each case" (Emphasis supplied).



According to your logic, every person who practices Yoga is a Hindu, because Yoga originated from the Vedas and pioneered by Patanjali. every person who takes Ayurvedic medicines is a Hindu, because of Vedic origin. every person who learns Indian Classical Music, which is evolved from Gandharva Veda, is a Hindu...?


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## BombayBoy (Sep 7, 2013)

@Raaabo
It looks like a discussion of people's political & religious beliefs.

For the facts being pointed out to "Hindu/ism" not being a religion, I just realised that I was living with a false belief that I'm a Hindu. Every place where they asked for a religion - Hindu was my answer. But looks like we have been mislead for generations.


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## mediator (Sep 7, 2013)

@rhitwick - If you are going to quote me, then quote the complete thing



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Like I stated before (Post #87), I haven't seen a situation under BJP where CBI and other bodies are used against people who voice for the Nation (Anna, Ramdev etc). Can you please tell all the cases that you know of where CBI is used by BJP against its opponents and common man more importantly? Can you tell if BJP committed a scam and used CBI to manipulate evidence (e.g Coalgate) or where BJP used CBI to draw support on Bill (e.g CBi against SP on foodbill?)?
> 
> I would really like to know the extent of misuse of CBI under BJP.
> 
> Now please do some listing!


Please write a detailed comprehension in not less than 250 words explaining what you understood by these lines of mine and then read your own links. 

I have not asked for CBI goofups, CBI actions and who complained to CBI. Again read what I have quoted of my own reply. Read very carefully and slowly this time.





			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> I just want to ask for one last clarifying point, do you believe in ANY religion? And yes, Hinduism is a religion, of many gods, and worshiping idols and the Ganga, etc.


You have already lost my interest in your posts. But still I will keep it simple without going into details.

I live in a world where religion or any of these "isms" have no meaning. I can hold Gita, Upanishads, Zend Avesta, Paulo Coelho, the works of scientists, Tao of Physics, Chess books, Guitar tutorials, Ragas, Mathematics etc without finding connection to what "religion" that have been tagged to by the illiterates.

I can randomly listen to music and put a song to my collection list without trying to find out what genre it belongs to and then falling a trap to the lowly discussion on whether Pop is better or Rock. Someone has already notified you the difference between Abrahamic religions and Indian science which you have ignored as usual. For me life is not about finding the best for that is subjective to everyone, but rather how to make best of everything that is available.

So there you have your answer => I don't believe in any religion. Hinduism is religion by the acts of people attached to superstition and busy making deals with the so called gods. Similarly atheism is a religion for me, where atheists usually have condescending attitude towards theists and busy worshipping money, booze, scientists and fancying with science instead of understanding it in detail to achieve a level which can enable it to question that very science.

In that perspective, astik is one who after some serious digging, questioning the Veda itself, understanding its concepts and the higher science through his own understanding authorizes the Veda to be absolute science. Here a shruti (the heard) has been affirmed. Same goes for Upanishads and Gita etc. Veda as you might know comes from the root word Vid (to know), bhagvad-gita from bhagvad-geet (divine song), brahma from (bhr) to grow and hence most of the Vedic symbology is not just a name but an experience of the higher unlike names in English which provide a bland and conrete mugging! Similarly, with that experience the one beyond time and space is called "Mahakaal" who is at the top of the heirarchy of the devas (agni/will, Indra/mind-intellect, Vayu/different-breaths etc) and hence called Mahadev as well. Our own body here is seen as a mountain and at the top of that the highest level consciousness is sitting. Hence Mahadev can be found only at Kailash (science of consciousness explained through a story). Perhaps, you are conditioned to "believe" that drinking, bozzing, earning is the only aim of life and perhaps reading some quotes and behave well. You have no idea what your mind and body are capable of! You are attached to technology, but what if your mind can enable you of something that is even better than technology? Again, before you assume, I'm not trying to put technology down!

If you understand anything from the above, then you'd also understand how astik is contrary to the word theism. Regarding temples, they used to be places of science research and research on consciousness. Google for dhruv STambh, Konark temple, history of Jantar Mantar. Just like how you'd find quotes regarding teeth and gums in a dentist's lab, similarly you'd find quotes from veda and Upanisads etc in temples as well. It is quite natural. I have linked more of my replies to you which you have ignored though which explain on Shiva-Shakti, Vishnu and his snake etc. If you goto the places like Hampi, the guide alone would tell what these riddles are on the walls where two snakes are trying to eat a rabit. I guess you have never visited these "communal" places or places of "belief" that you happily state as.

Let me ask a simple question. If you try to meditate, there is a state where the experience of body itself dilutes. What remains is "I", but after sometime that "I" also dilutes and you remain in an experience where there is no "I" or disconnection from "that". Just like if you put a drop in teh ocean, then you cannot say that the drop is here or there. The drop has become the entire ocean! If your physical body is killed in that state of yog, what is the guarantee that the "Experience" will also vanish? Remember, you have already transcended the experience of the body!

Similarly, many times it happens during dreaming that one loses a sense of his body or whether he is breathing at all. If someone shoots you in the head in the midst of that dream what is the guarantee that your dream will be broken?

Now try to understand what a Samadhi means. 

I would request you to empathise of what I say before you start making random conclusions. The science of consciousness briefed by Upanishands, Gita, Buddhist Sutras, the chakras and the science based on it e.g vaisheshika, Ayurveda etc are too broad and scientific to be narrowed to an umbrella term with an "ism". Did Buddha create Buddhism and Mahavira Jainism? Have you ever read the texts of GuruGranth sahib? If you are still conditioned and attached to the meaning of religion to be seeing all these isms as some religion, then you cannot say I'm pro-Hindu. I can be Pro-Buddh, Pro-Jainism, Pro-Sikhism as well. FYI, yog is integral to all these sciences which you because of your conditionings reduced to a "ism" and hence religion. For that matter I'm pro Zend-Avestan science as well. Now will you call me pro-Iran and Iranian culture?

I know you have not read any of these and hence I requested you to read and give it some 5 years or the same amount of time you give to technology or the field of knowledge you adore, before making the next statement. You would have saved a lot of time of yours alone in understanding instead of playing "You Vs Me".


Whoever says Indian science is a religion is mocking his own intelligence!


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## rhitwick (Sep 7, 2013)

mediator said:


> @rhitwick - If you are going to quote me, then quote the complete thing
> 
> 
> Please write a detailed comprehension in not less than 250 words explaining what you understood by these lines of mine and then read your own links.
> ...


Huh!
You asked to list CBI raids under BJP rule, I gave you that. There are links of how CBI raids had happened to opposition parties, ex-ministers and common men.
Do your work now and read 'em. I've read them, you know.

b/w still no post from you about that black money issue. Why are you avoiding that? 

And what is this Hinduism or Indianness you were blabbering since the beginning.

You yourself admitted that there were no 'hinduism' as there were no Hindu religion. This term is coined by foreigners, mainly invaders to recognise the inhabitants of people living the shore of 'Sindhu' river. I posted you texts by historians where its clearly mentioned that there were no defined boundary of present day India.
Who wrote that Veda? who wrote that Upanishada? the Geeta? Can pinpoint the area in map of the then map of land?
After that it would be necessary to show how that knowledge traveled in the land having present day boundary?
Then it would be required to show how many tribes or states were actually practicing the virtues or following the texts mentioned in veda and agreed to it?

Then it would be required to point out how modern day 'bharat' actually got defined? The then land boundary. How much were included with respect to preset day 'bharat' border or excluded?
After its established how the unification happened what did the inhabitants follow as 'religion'? Were all of them as spiritual and knowledgeable as you claim them to be?
If not, what percentage actually followed the concept you mentioned as 'dharma' and 'religion' and how many just followed present day distorted version of 'religion'?

There are books. Religious books. Our Ramayana, our Mahabharata, our 'Purana's (4 of them) where its mentioned about different gods. Which clashes with your theory of 'Hindu' religion never talking about different gods rather one god...

Best knowledge comes from local stories of ancient times. 

There is this book of collection of local stores of throughout India (considering present day land boundary). I was astonished reading them how each state (and the then tribes) discussed about creation of earth, their land, their food, and Gods. But each version different. Different god everywhere, they functioned differently, powers different. But, never I read about this one god, atma/paramatma thing.

b/w Raaabo told one thing correct though. You sound arrogant and pompous. You claim to know everything and anyone having different opinion is wrong. Why can't that opinion be right?
You quoted few verses from Quran and we've to take them on face value. We can't claim that they might been quoted out of context whereas anything posted against your claim can be termed be you as its quoted out of context.
I've told ago, telling again. You are an expert of Veda, Upanishada and Geeta may be. But till now I've hardly seen who practise Islam in daily life posting here. may be true meaning (and their side of story) can be presented then.

b/w what is your take on Swami Vivekanada's take on Hinduism and spirituality?


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## rishitells (Sep 7, 2013)

*@rhitwick*

Nobody wrote Veda. The hymns/Shrutis were handed down from one generation to another in oral form. Later, the great sage Vedavyasa compiled and classified the Vedas into four parts. Upanishads are the commentaries on the Vedic knowledge by various Rishis, and Gita is the practical essence of Vedic wisdom. No matter who wrote them, they belong to the same lineage and tradition i.e. the tradition of Self-Knowledge, or the Science of Consciousness. 
Vedic knowledge traveled to present day boundary because of the oral tradition of India. Everything, from studies to music, to dance, has been orally imparted from one generation to another for centuries. There are Music gharanas of India dating back to 600-700 years at least. Every gharana has its own style of playing which has continued for centuries! And not only in India, the Vedic traditions have traveled all over the world because of many foreign students coming to India to learn native sciences, music, dance and then going back to their homeland and teaching there. 

Even architecture and culture traveled, as there are numerous Vedic style temples in many Asian countries like Indonesia. Vedic culture is still prevalent in many countries like Indonesia despite being the ‘Largest Muslim Population’, as their currency note contains the picture of Lord Ganesha. Indonesia Airlines is called Garuda-Indonesia, named after the Vishnu’s vehicle Garuda. The mascot of Military Intelligence in Indonesia is Hanuman. Such is the cultural influence of Vedic traditions. Had it (Ganesha, Hanuman) been on Indian currency or Military, they would have been labeled as ‘communal’.

I don’t want to go into the geographical discussion as what matters to me is the culture, which was prevalent in the land of current India and many other countries. And that culture still survives. I’d rather like to go into the philosophy and sciences like Yoga, Ayurveda because it’s what really matters. Even if the Veda or Gita is lost, they can be recovered by self-knowledge again.

You first need to have a basic knowledge about the Vedic tradition. Puranas are not 4, they are Vedas. Such a childish knowledge about it and you think you are qualified enough to debate on it? 
There may be many *declared Gods*, but the ‘essence’ of Vedic knowledge, according to Sri Aurobindo is that-


> “Behind the appearances of the universe there is the Reality of a Being and Consciousness, a Self of all things, one and eternal. All beings are united in that One Self and Spirit but divided by a certain separativity of consciousness, an ignorance of their true Self and Reality in the mind, life and body. It is possible by a certain psychological discipline to remove this veil of separative consciousness and become aware of the true Self, the Divinity within us and all…”



You are nobody to say that ‘best knowledge comes from local stories’. Sorry but that’s a ridiculously funny statement. It’s like saying ‘best knowledge about Maths can come from a nursery book’. I don’t know which book are you claiming to read, but there is no shortage of crap hovering around in Indian book market. So better read from authentic sources (Scriptures themselves) instead of falling for local stories.


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## theterminator (Sep 7, 2013)

there is no doubt Islam promotes violence against other religions. Its self evident with what is happening in all parts of the planet (especially middle east)... Have said this before , what kind of religion is one where killing an animal becomes a festival. The Quranic verses are self explanatory, one doesnt need to dig much to find what degree of inferiority it attaches to other religions. Practicing Wahabism has resulted in the 100s of terror groups whose favourite sport is suicide bombing. All Islamists should practice Sufism. 
By the way, NOTHING of this sort of allegiance to violence has been found in Hindu texts, scriptures.


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## amjath (Sep 8, 2013)

Please answer this why do u make an idol [ganesha] and drop it into the sea?
Why do u spend lots of money on crackers and burst them?
Not hurting anyone's feelings here just answer them in short

OT:  Title change, when did this happen


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## Raaabo (Sep 8, 2013)

Sorry, I tried going through the thread to segregate, and it's impossible, so I changed the thread title itself. Apologies to the OP, but unavoidable.


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## rishitells (Sep 8, 2013)

*@amjath*

I never personally dropped any Ganesha into sea, neither have I spent a single buck on crackers since when I grew up (in childhood, it was an excitement because of ignorance). Such practices have evolved from people with lower understanding, but why target only them? That's everywhere, in any group, sect, or community, whether it's the mass slaughtering of animals on Eid, or tomato festival in Spain. Even the so called modern science conducts experiments by torturing innocent animals! Kindly broaden your view of things instead of falling for selective amnesia.


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## Skyh3ck (Sep 8, 2013)

i never thought there are so many intelligent people on this forum, @rishitells you have very in depth knowledge of world religions, and especially i agree with you that there is no such religion as "Hinduism", its a way of life and i am happy to live like that, there are no rules to follow, even if you study deep, there is no concept of GOD also, its just finding yourself, like "Purush" and "Prakriti" , but this kind of knowledge is not worth to be discussed with mind less people, who dont know the fact.

@Raaabo "Hinduism" is no religion, there is no such word in any of the puranas, vedas etc. you need to accpet this fact.


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## rishitells (Sep 8, 2013)

*@Skyh3ck* I appreciate your kind feedback. I am just a curious human being, having interest in Indian Philosophy, Sciences and especially Indian Classical Music.


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## rhitwick (Sep 8, 2013)

*Re: Indian Economy Going down*



rishitells said:


> *@rhitwick*
> 
> Nobody wrote Veda. The hymns/Shrutis were handed down from one generation to another in oral form.


And to whom? Only a particular group of people. Again which is irrelevant as caste or "barnashram" would come into picture here.

Rest of your posts are laughable. Even Mediator would want to correct you on this and I bet he would tell you more clerly than me. Still let me point out the gaps in knowledge you have.


> Later, the great sage Vedavyasa compiled and classified the Vedas into four parts.


He's assumed to have written "Mahabharata". 
And, its also assumed he merely divided Veda into four parts. Not compiled rather it was believed to be one whole thing and he split it. 


> When he was young, all the knowledge of the past was available as one single Veda. (Veda means -That which is known). But when he wanted to teach the Veda to his students, he found that no one student had the ability to learn it all. So he divided it into 4 vedas, Puranas, UpaPuranas. And he asked different students to learn different Vedas. He himself documented the Mahabharata an itihasa like the Valmiki Ramayana.


Veda Vyasa



> Upanishads are the commentaries on the Vedic knowledge by various Rishis, and Gita is the practical essence of Vedic wisdom. No matter who wrote them, they belong to the same lineage and tradition i.e. the tradition of Self-Knowledge, or the Science of Consciousness.
> Vedic knowledge traveled to present day boundary because of the oral tradition of India. Everything, from studies to music, to dance, has been orally imparted from one generation to another for centuries. There are Music gharanas of India dating back to 600-700 years at least. Every gharana has its own style of playing which has continued for centuries! And not only in India, the Vedic traditions have traveled all over the world because of many foreign students coming to India to learn native sciences, music, dance and then going back to their homeland and teaching there.


IDK, what you wanted to mean by this post.
Its really essential to set-up a timeline I can't take things on face-value just because YOU told them. After all these meaningless blabbering of both sides its really required to provide some concrete verifiable proof. I need that timeline. Work on it.



> Even architecture and culture traveled, as there are numerous Indian temples in many Asian countries like Indonesia. Vedic culture is still prevalent in many countries like Indonesia despite being the ‘Largest Muslim Population’, as their currency note contains the picture of Lord Ganesha. Indonesia Airlines is called Garuda-Indonesia, named after the Vishnu’s vehicle Garuda. The mascot of Military Intelligence in Indonesia is Hanuman. Such is the cultural influence of Vedic traditions. Had it (Ganesha, Hanuman) been on Indian currency or Military, they would have been labeled as ‘communal’.


Again, have you ever even read what mediator posted about Veda? There were no specific 'GOD' mentioned in any 'Veda' neither in Upanishada. You just can't create a relation between the mentioned Gods and 'vedic tradition' here on your whim.



> I don’t want to go into the geographical discussion as what matters to me is the culture, which was prevalent in the land of current India and many other countries. And that culture still survives. I’d rather like to go into the philosophy and sciences like Yoga, Ayurveda because it’s what really matters. Even if the Veda or Gita is lost, they can be recovered by self-knowledge again.


So why do you think the 'self knowledge' was transferred to generations by 'rishi-muni's in old time if they can be recovered again? 
You won't go into geographical discussion because.....it does not suit you. It does not work that way. You would answer half of the questions and then decide rest do not 'mater' to you. Either answer my queries or stop posting anything at all about anything I asked here.



> You first need to have a basic knowledge about the Vedic tradition. Puranas are not 4, they are Vedas. Such a childish knowledge about it and you think you are qualified enough to debate on it?



Dude, I never denied that there are not 4 vedas. And just for your information there are 4 major Puranas we have and total 18 puranas including those 4. Do your homework first before opening your mouth here.
*srivedavyasa.org/Puranas.htm



> There may be many *declared Gods*, but the ‘essence’ of Vedic knowledge, according to Sri Aurobindo is that-


So do we just abandon the Gods you just mentioned Indonesia use or the various Gods that are worshipped throughout India? So what do we do with them? 

If Rishi AAurobindo's explanation is to be believed how can I follow all these Gods. There is some fundamental issue at the very beginning. If Veda actually teaches us about Atma and Paramatma and one God how these beings came into Picture? Are they real or imagined?



> You are nobody to say that ‘best knowledge comes from local stories’. Sorry but that’s a ridiculously funny statement. It’s like saying ‘best knowledge about Maths can come from a nursery book’. I don’t know which book are you claiming to read, but there is no shortage of crap hovering around in Indian book market. So better read from authentic sources instead of falling for local stories.


I'm not talking about any god related book or a very spiritual book but a collection of folk tales. Tales that are documented now whereas for centuries they were told to generations in different tribes only via mouth. A less glorified form of 'Shruti' I guess. And about knowledge, may not be very deep but at least a pattern forms infront of you. A pattern which shows how these tribes staying unrealed to each other for ages thought same way. Created a God for same objects and then worshipped them.

This pattern I'm talking about. This also shows that the knowledge of Veda did not actually flow all over the then un-divided India like you all claim to be. Thus such gaps in continuity.

///Did I just post in a new thread?!! How did that happen?
///Got it, title change!


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## Anorion (Sep 8, 2013)

have copy of gita. Its full of more offending verses. And lets not even start on manu smriti. 
Its easy to remember only razed temples and forget about moghul miniatures that immortalized hindu myths

Some posts about islam are as bad as prabhupada saying all nobel prize winners are donkeys

If you look at religious texts as a continuum based on the time they came up, there is increasing focus on texts, books, knowledge and technology. 

The indian science has reduced to cults of godmen, to whom people are losing friends and relatives. It barely survives as an alternative institutional setup for relevant knowledge. If babas were teaching radio broadcasting through oral traditions, then would agree that it is indian science.


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## Skyh3ck (Sep 8, 2013)

rishitells said:


> *@amjath*
> 
> I never personally dropped any Ganesha into sea, neither have I spent a single buck on crackers since when I grew up (in childhood, it was an excitement because of ignorance). Such practices have evolved from people with lower understanding, but why target only them? That's everywhere, in any group, sect, or community, whether it's the mass slaughtering of animals on Eid, or tomato festival in Spain. Even the so called modern science conducts experiments by torturing innocent animals! Kindly broaden your view of things instead of falling for selective amnesia.


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## amjath (Sep 8, 2013)

rishitells said:


> *@amjath*
> 
> I never personally dropped any Ganesha into sea, neither have I spent a single buck on crackers since when I grew up (in childhood, it was an excitement because of ignorance). Such practices have evolved from people with lower understanding, but why target only them? That's everywhere, in any group, sect, or community, whether it's the mass slaughtering of animals on Eid, or tomato festival in Spain. Even the so called modern science conducts experiments by torturing innocent animals! Kindly broaden your view of things instead of falling for selective amnesia.



I dont know whether you guys [and who says mass slaughtering blah blah blah] went to school or not. Have u heard about food chain and food web. 
If u go to a meat shop [non muslim shop] u can see that slits the throat of the animal and immediately breaks the neck from the spinal cord. Thats painful and brutal. The way the muslim do is not brutal.

One personal question Do u drink Milk??


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## snap (Sep 8, 2013)

going by some of the recent posts i think we should have a veg vs non veg thread


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## rishitells (Sep 8, 2013)

amjath said:


> I dont know whether you guys [and who says mass slaughtering blah blah blah] went to school or not. Have u heard about food chain and food web.
> If u go to a meat shop [non muslim shop] u can see that slits the throat of the animal and immediately breaks the neck from the spinal cord. Thats painful and brutal. The way the muslim do is not brutal.
> 
> One personal question Do u drink Milk??



Why not put yourself in that food chain or food web, and offer yourself for slaughter, if that is not brutal. Killing a conscious being, who is well aware of itself, lives a life of a father/mother/brother/sister, is not what I would advocate, ok. I cannot kill an animal if I cannot give a life to a new one myself. 

And yes I drink Milk, I know why you asked this, and I know the series or arguments your are going to put forward after this.


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## amjath (Sep 8, 2013)

I'm ending my slaughtering debate here because u guys are not ready to accept anything. May be u guys will only accept when those animals comes and talk to you.


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## mediator (Sep 8, 2013)

@Rishitells -

You have written very beautifully. 




> “Behind the appearances of the universe there is the Reality of a Being and Consciousness, a Self of all things, one and eternal. All beings are united in that One Self and Spirit but divided by a certain separativity of consciousness, an ignorance of their true Self and Reality in the mind, life and body. It is possible by a certain psychological discipline to remove this veil of separative consciousness and become aware of the true Self, the Divinity within us and all…”



I would like to relate this beautiful excerpt from Aurobindo to Gita as well.

Without division that Ultimate Truth appears to be divided among all the various living entities and is to be known as the preserver of all living entities and the destroyer as well as the creator. (BG 13.17)


Anyways, some people will remain deluded by the names, tags, who wrote it, testimonials of others, what Vivekanand thinks everything else instead of sitting in silence and listening to themselves first.



			
				amjath said:
			
		

> I dont know whether you guys [and who says mass slaughtering blah blah blah] went to school or not. Have u heard about food chain and food web.
> If u go to a meat shop [non muslim shop] u can see that slits the throat of the animal and immediately breaks the neck from the spinal cord. Thats painful and brutal. *The way the muslim do is not brutal.*
> 
> One personal question Do u drink Milk??


Why even do it? I do drink Soya Milk. Lets create a new religion with a festival like Muslim-Id where those tagged as muslims are chopped and served as food to the carnivores. What say? Lets do it the non-brutal way!



			
				anorion said:
			
		

> have copy of gita. Its full of more offending verses. And lets not even start on manu smriti.


Please quote those offending verses instead of commenting and opining. 

Here's Manusmriti you should buy and read => *agnikart.com/in/agniveer-recommends/manusmriti-hindi


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## snap (Sep 8, 2013)

mediator said:


> @Rishitells -
> 
> You have written very beautifully.
> 
> ...



sigh, it looks like you have closed your mind to other people opinions which does not agree with you.


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## rishitells (Sep 8, 2013)

*Re: Indian Economy Going down*



rhitwick said:


> And to whom? Only a particular group of people. Again which is irrelevant as caste or "barnashram" would come into picture here.
> 
> Rest of your posts are laughable. Even Mediator would want to correct you on this and I bet he would tell you more clerly than me. Still let me point out the gaps in knowledge you have.



'Only a particular group of people', who says that? Rhitwick? I don't want to debate on 'varnashram' as it is a full-fledged debate topic, but you can't just assume that the knowledge was imparted to only a particular group unless you provide me a verifiable 'proof'.



> He's assumed to have written "Mahabharata".
> And, its also assumed he merely divided Veda into four parts. Not compiled rather it was believed to be one whole thing and he split it.
> 
> Veda Vyasa


What is assumed is not my concern. Vedavyasa is considered to be a compiler and classifier of Vedas. And again, I am concerned about the content of the Vedas, and not about who wrote it, where it was written.



> IDK, what you wanted to mean by this post.
> Its really essential to set-up a timeline I can't take things on face-value just because YOU told them. After all these meaningless blabbering of both sides its really required to provide some concrete verifiable proof. I need that timeline. Work on it.


Well, my posts are self-explanatory. I said Upanishads are the commentaries on Vedas, and Gita the practical essence of Vedas, anyone with a little interest will find it out himself. And as for traditions, the Delhi musical gharana was established in 13th Century by Amir Khusro, and still flourishing under Ustad Tanveer Ahmed Khan, the lead vocalist, just an example of the knowledge system of India.



> Again, have you ever even read what mediator posted about Veda? There were no specific 'GOD' mentioned in any 'Veda' neither in Upanishada. You just can't create a relation between the mentioned Gods and 'vedic tradition' here on your whim.


Did I mention Veda while discussing about Gods? I said the Vedic culture is prevalent, and that Vedic culture and tradition includes the worship of God in many forms, manifest or unmanifest. Here the Vedic culture is a term used to denote the Civilization of Indian land. 



> So why do you think the 'self knowledge' was transferred to generations by 'rishi-muni's in old time if they can be recovered again?
> You won't go into geographical discussion because.....it does not suit you. It does not work that way. You would answer half of the questions and then decide rest do not 'mater' to you. Either answer my queries or stop posting anything at all about anything I asked here.


Transferred to generations because they didn't want it to be lost. And if it's lost, somebody will be there to recover it. For example, Sri Aurobindo did a pioneering work by recovering the lost meaning of the Vedas. It's that way I am talking about.
And yes, geographical discussion does not suit me, neither have I any interest in it. I just feel compelled to answer anyone when I sense pathetic understanding.




> Dude, I never denied that there are not 4 vedas. And just for your information there are 4 major Puranas we have and total 18 puranas including those 4. Do your homework first before opening your mouth here.
> Bhagavan Sri VedaVyasa


Puranas are 18, that's it. Kindly don't reveal your increasing levels of frustration by personalizing.
And well, I too find your rest of the post laughable, and I wouldn't even take the pain to quote and reply because of so much personalization, so tedious. Better read and understand Indian/Vedic history and sciences yourself.


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## Anorion (Sep 8, 2013)

mediator said:


> Please quote those offending verses instead of commenting and opining.



Ok lets start with one
Chapter 1 verse 40

Adharmabhibhavat krsna
Pradusyanti kula-striya
Strisu dustasu varsneya
Jayate varna-sankarah

Why only women get polluted when irreligion becomes prominent in the family? Looks like krishna believed women only could be degraded. And its the woman's fault for "unwanted progeny"

Im not against texts, but just want to say it is easy to pull out verses and nit pick.


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## mediator (Sep 8, 2013)

@Anorion

1. The translation is as follows

O Krishna, when unrighteousness is predominant then women in the family become degraded and from the degradation of womanhood O Krishna; undesirable progeny comes into existence. 

2. The verse is said by Arjun (not Krishna as you have ignorantly pointed out, read sanskrit if you can) during his state of confusion and sadness.

3. The first chapter itself tells about the circumstances which are explained by Arjun before he seeks Krishna's help.

4. The verse is not a question mark at all like you have put it => "Why only women get polluted"
--------------------
This is what happens when you don't read properly and quote frivolously. Please quote the next verse!


@Snap - Its not about agreeing or disagreeing, there has not be certain level of understanding or comprehension skills amongst the other person to whom your talking. You cannot talk to a person who doesn't know maths about calculus can you? And, then keep on repeating, even after explaining 1000 times. Read science Vs god debate from page 55 and you shall find all the answers have already been discussed. It has been therebey requested to understand the basics of consciousness, otherwise a person will keep going on a wild goose chase!


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## Anorion (Sep 8, 2013)

Hmm. Was questioning, not translating.. Next up is

Ch 18 verse 44 
Krsi-go-raksya vanijyam
Vaisya karma svabhava-jam
Paricaryatmakam karma
Sudrasyapi svabhava-jam

Natural work for vaisyas is farming and cow protection
For sudras it is labour and service to others...

Ps, wanted to post this much earlier, hilarious 
*namodoingthings.tumblr.com/


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## mediator (Sep 8, 2013)

I feel like a teacher now. Anyways, The correct translation goes like this :

The actions of a vaisya born of his own nature are agriculture, cow protection and trade; also the actions of a sudra born of his own nature consists in service to brahmanas, ksatriyas and vaisyas


Purport - Varnashram is a classification on how people chose to serve the society. A brahmin is equivalent to todays "teachers, scientists, engineers etc". Kshatriya -> warriors/soldiers/policemen, Vaishya -> Business, cow herd, agriculture (basically one who grows wealth and food), shudra -> one does other lower menial works and serves the other classes (not cast).

A brahmin's boy can be shudra by his nature and vice versa! Refer Satyakaam Jabala's story. It is similar to how doctor's boy can go into military by his own nature and desire or become an MBA qualified businessman.

Every person has all the 4 classifications in him at all times. It is only a matter of time of which one becomes more dominant.
------------

Next verse please!


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## rishitells (Sep 8, 2013)

mediator said:


> I feel like a teacher now.



I burst into laughter after reading this first line...


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## Raaabo (Sep 8, 2013)

mediator said:


> You have already lost my interest in your posts. But still I will keep it simple without going into details.



Oh how sad, my ignorance has driven you to boredom, however I shall also keep things simple.



mediator said:


> I live in a world where religion or any of these "isms" have no meaning. I can hold Gita, Upanishads, Zend Avesta, Paulo Coelho, the works of scientists, Tao of Physics, Chess books, Guitar tutorials, Ragas, Mathematics etc without finding connection to what "religion" that have been tagged to by the illiterates.



Absolutely the same for me. I just don't hate people for believing differently. I might yell at an adult making a mess in my home, but I wouldn't do the same with a 3-year old child. Instead I would have a healthy discussion and find better ways to express myself, rather than just say all children are idiots and there is no hope for them. Or worse, "Kill all the children, banish people from having kids." There's an appropriate way of making a point and that's all I have ever asked you to do on this forum.



mediator said:


> I can randomly listen to music and put a song to my collection list without trying to find out what genre it belongs to and then falling a trap to the lowly discussion on whether Pop is better or Rock. Someone has already notified you the difference between Abrahamic religions and Indian science which you have ignored as usual. For me life is not about finding the best for that is subjective to everyone, but rather how to make best of everything that is available.



If you, yourself say "the best" is "subjective" then who are you to say that what you believe is the "best". Or even more importantly, what others believe is evil. I don't agree with any religion the way it is being preached now, but I only say that. "I" don't believe in it. If someone asks me why, I tell them why, but there is a way to do so. I believe that the vedas were collective knowledge, and are good in many ways, and irrelevant in some ways too, given the world we live in. 



mediator said:


> So there you have your answer => I don't believe in any religion. Hinduism is religion by the acts of people attached to superstition and busy making deals with the so called gods. Similarly atheism is a religion for me, where atheists usually have condescending attitude towards theists and busy worshipping money, booze, scientists and fancying with science instead of understanding it in detail to achieve a level which can enable it to question that very science.



I disagree, yes we Atheists may hate the killing and rubbish that people do in the name of religion, but I for one am attached to other people, and not money, I don't drink, and yes I question science, all the time, and it's the only "belief" I have come across that actually encourages questioning and improvement with Nobel prizes and the like. Perhaps in the Vedas they got everything right in the first time and explained the whole universe in one shot, or perhaps they didn't. I question even that. Is Yoga good? Of course, and I don't know about around India, but for example a church near my home has Yoga classes, taught by a priest, explaining the names in Sankrit, and what the poses mean, and how they help, and then also using the modern names of the muscles and organs, etc. to make it easier to understand for everyone. I have nothing against the "sciences" of ancient times, I think they should be followed and then evaluated - even medical studies done. I am against blindly following rituals, and nothing more.

Also, I cannot speak for all atheists, since the very definition is basically non-believer, and who knows what people believe or don't believe in, but I certainly do not subscribe to the idea of an all powerful god, or millions of them. I do not think it prudent to find the spiritual in everything. I will respect a rock, because it might hurt my toe, or be used to bash my head in, but I also think sitting about wondering if a rock has consciousness or a soul is a waste of my time, and perhaps over romanticising everything. though I have nothing against people wanting to sit around for the rest of their lives doing so. If they're not a problem to the world, why restrict that, so be it.



mediator said:


> In that perspective, astik is one who after some serious digging, questioning the Veda itself, understanding its concepts and the higher science through his own understanding authorizes the Veda to be absolute science. Here a shruti (the heard) has been affirmed. Same goes for Upanishads and Gita etc. Veda as you might know comes from the root word Vid (to know), bhagvad-gita from bhagvad-geet (divine song), brahma from (bhr) to grow and hence most of the Vedic symbology is not just a name but an experience of the higher unlike names in English which provide a bland and conrete mugging! Similarly, with that experience the one beyond time and space is called "Mahakaal" who is at the top of the heirarchy of the devas (agni/will, Indra/mind-intellect, Vayu/different-breaths etc) and hence called Mahadev as well. Our own body here is seen as a mountain and at the top of that the highest level consciousness is sitting. Hence Mahadev can be found only at Kailash (science of consciousness explained through a story). Perhaps, you are conditioned to "believe" that drinking, bozzing, earning is the only aim of life and perhaps reading some quotes and behave well. You have no idea what your mind and body are capable of! You are attached to technology, but what if your mind can enable you of something that is even better than technology? Again, before you assume, I'm not trying to put technology down!



I assume nothing, however you assume that I live and breathe technology and have no other interests in life. I also love music, play guitar, the arts, and have read a little of all religions and texts. I will admit that they bore me, and I haven't made it my life's passion to read the Vedas or any or all ancient texts of various faiths, but then who says I need to in order to learn and experience life? There was nothing special about the people who wrote the Bible, and neither was there anything special about the people who wrote the Vedas, it was a collective wisdom, brought forth via thinking and pondering, and I can do the same, as can anyone else here, if they really want to. This discussion forum could theoretically be used to come up with collective wisdom as well, but I certainly don't want people deifying TDF!

Isn't variety needed? New ideas, new ways of thinking, and does that ever come from blindly following what someone else said? Regardless of whether it was said 12,000 years ago or 12 minutes ago. I absorb what I can, ponder and arrive at my own decision, and then maybe share the logic of why I did that and let the world decide to call me ignorant or wise or just an average individual. For example, you may think me idiotic, or vice versa, but it doesn't make either of us idiots, just different. I still believe that its the recognition of differences of opinions that really helps us evolve, but then again, maybe I'm just ignorant to you.

Collective knowledge is best suited for sciences of course, and 2 + 2 = 4, no matter what language, and 2 x 2 also = 4, and thus we arrive at mathematics, the other language after music that everyone can appreciate. However, yes, some people are best suited towards thinking of possibilities where 2 + 2 does not = 4, and thus the variety of thought, and more power to them.

Of course you may assume that evolution is nonsense (though I don't know your reasons), and it may or may not be, I certainly will not just disregard it, especially since fossil findings and carbon dating show how humanoids evolved over millions of years, or how mammoths were cousins of today's elephants, or a billion more examples that a little Googling will get anyone.

Assuming that the evolution theory is sound - didn't the cave men, a million years ago realise that their bodies were capable of more and more? Didn't they improve and become better hunters and more successful? Archaeology certainly suggests it, and they outdate the vedas and written word and all known history itself.

Now of course there are stories about ancient aliens, and how Krishna was actually an extra terrestrial, and the logic they put forth is pretty sound (even if there are chinks in the armour, as any theory has), but until some sort of proof is found I am forever sceptical. Listen to everything, try and understand it all, but just "believe" nothing unless scientifically and logically provable. Thus the bettering of ones thinking is evolution, in a sense, but it requires openness, sadly not something the world is ready for yet. However, even physically, mankind has changed - we've grown taller, have less body hair, live longer (age slower actually, because of less physical stresses - and yes modern medicine). This is an evolution of sorts. Some say that actually we've devolved, into a weaker species, etc. But for me that's proof enough that evolution (forwards or backwards) occurs, and thus hopefully we can evolve forwards to the next step, using whatever path that is.



mediator said:


> If you understand anything from the above, then you'd also understand how astik is contrary to the word theism. Regarding temples, they used to be places of science research and research on consciousness. Google for dhruv STambh, Konark temple, history of Jantar Mantar. Just like how you'd find quotes regarding teeth and gums in a dentist's lab, similarly you'd find quotes from veda and Upanisads etc in temples as well. It is quite natural. I have linked more of my replies to you which you have ignored though which explain on Shiva-Shakti, Vishnu and his snake etc. If you goto the places like Hampi, the guide alone would tell what these riddles are on the walls where two snakes are trying to eat a rabit. I guess you have never visited these "communal" places or places of "belief" that you happily state as.



You assume I ignored everything, just because I asked you to control your attacks on religions. I hadn't reacted to everything else, and honestly don't really have the time to do so now even, but just because I reacted to one aspect doesn't mean that's all I read. I am sure I am not the only one here who finds that you jump from one topic to another too often and easily, and it confuses the matter. Perhaps people who know what you "believe" or "stand for" know you better and are able to understand, but as a lot of other people have told you, they have trouble understanding your point at times. Perhaps one of the reasons is quoting the vedas without putting them into context and explaining why you think it fits well in this scenario. But hey, that's not a requirement, and teaching or sharing your thoughts isn't a requirement either, it's just sensible to be clear, but certainly not mandatory. To each his own.

Of course I haven't visited all places of "belief" who has? I have been to a few, and I have made sure to sit and listen to all faiths preach. OK, most common faiths - I have been to temples, mosques, gurudwaras and churches. Not to fire temples, or the church of scientology, or many others. But if I get the opportunity to, I would love to.



mediator said:


> Let me ask a simple question. If you try to meditate, there is a state where the experience of body itself dilutes. What remains is "I", but after sometime that "I" also dilutes and you remain in an experience where there is no "I" or disconnection from "that". Just like if you put a drop in teh ocean, then you cannot say that the drop is here or there. The drop has become the entire ocean! If your physical body is killed in that state of yog, what is the guarantee that the "Experience" will also vanish? Remember, you have already transcended the experience of the body!
> 
> Similarly, many times it happens during dreaming that one loses a sense of his body or whether he is breathing at all. If someone shoots you in the head in the midst of that dream what is the guarantee that your dream will be broken?



I have never "meditated" in the traditional sense. Sure I have been lost in music, enjoyed my work and forgotten the time, sat around for hours just thinking about things and trying to understand the world around me, especially people, but no I have never "meditated". I have tried several times when I was younger but failed. Again, maybe I'm ignorant, or maybe people just like to believe that they have a spirit and a higher plane of consciousness, because heck, if this is it, then life is kind of horrible without meaning. It's why I think religions exist in the first place, because since the dawn of thinking, people have wondered, is this all there is? What I don't understand scares me, so lets come up with an explanation. Will I just die? Is there nothing more to my life? I am special, I must have a higher purpose. I cannot be just another fragile biological machine who is and then just isn't.

I find that there is so much more wrong with "us" than "I". Yes, I know most will say you cannot understand us before understanding I, something like you cannot understand physics without mathematics, or whatever. However personally, I have found that the problem with the world is the problem of "I", or perhaps the obsession with "Me, myself and I(rene?)". People are so selfishly obsessed with "I" that no one gives a damn about us. And when they do, then it's usually the wrong "us". The us in most cases is an extension of "I" - my family, my party, my religion, etc. I will make an exception for "my country", even though it is still selfish, since it is better than most other selfish thoughts. Our earth, or our human race, would be interesting, our solar system and our universe is what I would like to be a part of, and I only find science doing that at the moment. And yes, I know how many "I"s were in that sentence. It's interesting that no matter what, our frame of reference is always "I", no matter what. What can I do? What do I feel? Thus my inability to be a drop in the ocean, lost in humanity. Unless at, say Kurla station during rush hour in Bombay. That's one way of losing sense of "I", where the crowds become and ocean and you have no clue where you're headed sometimes, you just go with the flow.

Jokes aside, every time I have heard someone speak of their meditation enlightenments, it's always something totally personal, or something completely weird and irrelevant. Perhaps you are different, and can share your meditation experience with us, however I have yet to meet someone who came up with anything helpful or relevant from meditation personally. The abstract, as far as experience has taught me, may be fun, but it's also totally pointless. Many people get high on drugs just to get exactly that feeling, and we call them addicts and try and fix them. 



mediator said:


> Now try to understand what a Samadhi means.
> 
> I would request you to empathise of what I say before you start making random conclusions. The science of consciousness briefed by Upanishands, Gita, Buddhist Sutras, the chakras and the science based on it e.g vaisheshika, Ayurveda etc are too broad and scientific to be narrowed to an umbrella term with an "ism". Did Buddha create Buddhism and Mahavira Jainism? Have you ever read the texts of GuruGranth sahib? If you are still conditioned and attached to the meaning of religion to be seeing all these isms as some religion, then you cannot say I'm pro-Hindu. I can be Pro-Buddh, Pro-Jainism, Pro-Sikhism as well. FYI, yog is integral to all these sciences which you because of your conditionings reduced to a "ism" and hence religion. For that matter I'm pro Zend-Avestan science as well. Now will you call me pro-Iran and Iranian culture?
> 
> ...



I never called you pro anything, but I did say you were "anti" other beliefs. That's also fine, and there's no harm in being anti-anything, but there's just a civilised and accepted social way to communicate it, that's all.

Am I to understand that you also do not comment about anything you haven't "studied" for 5 years? I certainly haven't spent as much time on some of these as you have, but that doesn't mean I should not have an opinion on them. Who sets these rules? If a Sadhu who has spent all his life pondering the vedas comes here and says spend 45 years and then comment, would you go away only to return after 40 years?

I don't agree with you on the basis of the world you live in. Just quoting the vedas and ridiculing everything else in a world that has forgotten them isn't going to solve anything. It will make you happier, as will Islam make a Muslim happy, and a Church sermon make a christian happy, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. If the purpose of this is just that selfish goal of keeping oneself happy and not about suggestions to improve the world around us, then perhaps that's why you think me ignorant. I didn't come here to make myself happy or to talk about what makes everyone happy individually. If that were the case, then why comment about anything, right, so I assume you also want the world to be happier, and if not that, at least the country.

The problem is not "I" being happy, it's "us". My way is right and your way is wrong is the very problem. The reason I prefer new science to the old is because the old science has been hijacked by too many people. From self styled godmen to political parties, to the local pundit, everyone else claims that there is a Hindu "religion" even if you don't. Thus it makes it a fight between religions, in which no one can win except by wiping the other off the face of the earth - which is what tends to happen. If the new sciences are "inspired" by the old, why stick to calling them old? Why is it that I don't see the venom from you about the people who have hijacked the vedas and gita, and turned it into superstitions that you say you don't follow? 

I would be with you 100% if you had said, what difference does it make if some Mughal broke a temple or not, there was no need to stoop to their level. There was no need to gain political mileage from that, or to try and incite riots, or to hold any value for a piece of land anyway. Someone suggested a hospital on the site, I suggest a museum of science, religion and artifacts for all faiths. Like you, I also would like all kids to be taught all faiths, and science, and then let them choose their own path, instead of trying to breed one another out as all beliefs have attempted for thousands of years.

Also, since I agreed to post some links here...

Why generalising is bad:
Ahmadiyya - Invitation Towards Allah (God) -- like you, they too ridicule the videos of clerics such as Zakir Naik.


Before clicking the links below, please understand, I have no love lost for the congress, or any party. If I could, I would vote only none of the above for every election until I found someone who actually cared.

Did Narendra Modi make Gujarat Vibrant? | Business Standard
Not So Vibrant
The man who would rule India - The Hindu

My only grouse with Modi is his arrogance and his false advertising PR machinery. Maybe he's a wonderful person, maybe he will spew venom if he wins. I should also add that I also think that in all likely-hood he will be the next PM, because congress has scammed for too long and has no face left. Maybe a third front can surprise everyone, but I still feel it is really going to go back to square 1. New people will make money, old scamsters will go to jail, and media will have sting operations and breaking news, ridiculous statements will be made, no one will talk tough to Pakistan or China, and life will get worse. I so very badly hope I am proven wrong, regardless of who wins the elections... but alas experience, rational thinking and logic doesn't give me the bliss of being happy with any outcome.

Hey Anorion, long time no see  

What fiendishly freakish things have you been up to these days?



Anorion said:


> Ps, wanted to post this much earlier, hilarious
> Narendra Modi Doing Things



Also:
Rahul Gandhi Doing Things



rishitells said:


> I burst into laughter after reading this first line...



If mediator can translate and dispel doubts, that's a good thing. Even in my limited knowledge of the vedas I know that "Teaching" is honourable, and helps people on the path to enlightenment. What's funny about that? It should neither be funny, nor feel like a chore. However, seeking knowledge is also important, and there's never a shortage of learning. Today a teacher, tomorrow a student...

Off Topic: Ico what happened to our auto-merge plugin?

Also, Mediator. Since I barely passed Sanskrit in school, my only interaction with the Vedas was an old copy of Griffith's translation of the Rig Veda, which, again being honest, bored me pretty quick. Again, it could be my ignorance, or was it because the translation was off? 

*www.sacred-texts.com/hin/index.htm

Are those acceptable translations?


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## theterminator (Sep 8, 2013)

Bomb making & blowing up people has become a booming industry in the Muslim community. I am not bringing to book all of them , that will be foolish. 
In India, they have largely been under control or have exercised some sort of self-restraint but take a look at what is going outside. 
Countries with majority muslim population dont give a damn about minorities. They are not making up their own religion but following their holybook but not in the case of hinduism where practices can differ from the actual text like Sati.


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## Faun (Sep 8, 2013)

snap said:


> going by some of the recent posts i think we should have a veg vs non veg thread



[narrating while in his car underwater] I always liked fish. I never thought that one day they would like me too. 

Though I am a non veg, I like the flipping event. Jhatka slaughter is better than slowly killing someone.



Anorion said:


> Ok lets start with one
> Chapter 1 verse 40
> 
> Adharmabhibhavat krsna
> ...



Looks like B grade movie script or like bing translation


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## theterminator (Sep 8, 2013)

amjath said:


> I dont know whether you guys [and who says mass slaughtering blah blah blah] went to school or not. Have u heard about food chain and food web.
> If u go to a meat shop [non muslim shop] u can see that slits the throat of the animal and immediately breaks the neck from the spinal cord. Thats painful and brutal. *The way the muslim do is not brutal.*
> 
> One personal question Do u drink Milk??



Is it peaceful? 
I don't drink milk ..its ugly


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 8, 2013)

Quran was not not even written by their prophet Muhammad but it comes into existence after his death & written by his followers.quran is not some simple book which can be interpreted easily without understanding the whole context historically.read this to get a start:
ISLAM for peace
remember it is written by muslims so it will be used as first point of attack by some saying how can you trust it & blah,blah..... but note that since it is written by muslims it also means that multiple interpretations of quran are possible so this places a doubt over violent versions of islam/quran as the only truth.
as for rise of extremist wahabi muslim sect today blame it on USA because it encouraged this particular brand of islam to fight USSR/communism in 80's in Afghanistan which resulted in creation of Osama bin Laden(for those who don't know he was first trained by CIA to fight russians).the source of wahabi sect is situated in Saudi Arab & as expected most of its prominent leaders & extremists like Osama also belong to Saudi Arab.despite knowing all this USA keeps supporting it because of its short sighted policies just like it keeps supporting Pakistan.in fact USA's own CIA has helped many extremist muslims religious groups in the past to take on muslim govt which were unfriendly to USA over their oil policies.

P.S.milk is a very rich source of essential nutrients so try some flavored milk to see if it helps.


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## heidi2521 (Sep 8, 2013)

More scams, yo. 

CAG unearths Rs 17,000 crore scam in railways - The Times of India

I think that most of Modi's PR is done by the Congress/UPA itself. Due to the endless scams the people will turn to anything that has a chance of getting them out of this mess. The BS slander that goes on against Modi like the 'Rambo' frontpage and P9 clarification also turns people against the current power and makes them curious about Modi. Even if the UPA was good for nothing but didn't participate in so many scams (or at least if they didn't become public) I don't think that Modi would have nearly as much support as he does now.

Right now real criticisms of Modi get lost amongst the mountain of BS being spewn.


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## gopi_vbboy (Sep 8, 2013)

For sake of ignorant lazy souls who can't read big posts, can someone pls throw light on what is argument of religious discussions happening here ?About what?


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## theterminator (Sep 8, 2013)

Bin Laden being a product of USA's policies is no secret. Its been known to people before 9/11.  Americans are retards in many areas, short-sightedness being one of them. But one can't blame just USA for what Radical Islam is today. Its prevalent from ancient times (ex: Aurangzeb). 
I dont get what is their to understand Quran when it is itself explainatory. What context are we talking about? Is it that quran was a reaction to some other religion of those times so that it distinguishes itself from them? Convert others to this religion forcefully because its superior? 
Fortunately , Indian muslims after independence have shown tremendous self restraint when their fellow religious persons are busy bombing public places. One hopes it stays that way & keep politics out of it ....though situations are gradually turning to the worse in Uttar Pradesh.


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## theserpent (Sep 8, 2013)

Raaabo said:


> Sorry, I tried going through the thread to segregate, and it's impossible, so I changed the thread title itself. Apologies to the OP, but unavoidable.



It's ok

You all know that BJP support's all these groups like bajrang dal,ram sena etc in mangalore.That's the main reason why they never won In Karnataka this time.
Last year when there was a attack in a home stay  in Mangalore,The police commissioner arrested them,BJP bailed them and transfer the BEST Commissioner of mangalore to some other city.
These groups take everything in their hands.
So all I can say Is BJP will never win in south India.


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 8, 2013)

@theterminator,you didn't read the link i posted earlier or you wouldn't be asking that.i am sure you know about various muslim sects/divisions like shia/sunni/barelvi/wahabi/deobandi etc & how they are always in fight with each other & if not then just know this now.if you compare them with structure of extremist muslim organizations you will find that there is a huge mismatch between their participation based on their share in total muslim population yet all of them follow quran so why is that.the answer is because of different possible versions/interpretations of quran.Aurangzeb is simply one more example of this classification.UP muslim population is increasingly being influenced by wahabi/deobandi because of the more economical clout they possess because of Saudi petro dollars & this is one of the main reason for an increase in such clashes.


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## theserpent (Sep 8, 2013)

theterminator said:


> Bin Laden being a product of USA's policies is no secret. Its been known to people before 9/11.  Americans are retards in many areas, short-sightedness being one of them. But one can't blame just USA for what Radical Islam is today. Its prevalent from ancient times (ex: Aurangzeb).
> I dont get what is their to understand Quran when it is itself explainatory. What context are we talking about? Is it that quran was a reaction to some other religion of those times so that it distinguishes itself from them? Convert others to this religion forcefully because its superior?
> Fortunately , Indian muslims after independence have shown tremendous self restraint when their fellow religious persons are busy bombing public places. One hopes it stays that way & keep politics out of it ....though situations are gradually turning to the worse in Uttar Pradesh.



There are so many rumors in the net that say 9/11 Was a inside job.

Some times I feel it might be true



whitestar_999 said:


> @theterminator,you didn't read the link i posted earlier or you wouldn't be asking that.i am sure you know about various muslim sects/divisions like shia/sunni/barelvi/wahabi/deobandi etc & how they are always in fight with each other & if not then just know this now.if you compare them with structure of extremist muslim organizations you will find that there is a huge mismatch between their participation based on their share in total muslim population yet all of them follow quran so why is that.the answer is because of different possible versions/interpretations of quran.Aurangzeb is simply one more example of this classification.UP muslim population is increasingly being influenced by wahabi/deobandi because of the more economical clout they possess because of Saudi petro dollars & this is one of the main reason for an increase in such clashes.



Was that post to me?


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 8, 2013)

they are just rumors nothing else.for those who don't know 9/11 was simply a 2nd try:
1993 World Trade Center bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

P.S.@serpent,that was for @theterminator.


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## Hrishi (Sep 8, 2013)

I am not much of a Sanskrit manuscript reader. Though I would love to read and understand them all. Thousands of years of collective knowledge.!!!!!!!

Religion is not flawed. Its how you interpret and follow it.
Problem occurs when people try to prove how the religion they follow or believe in , is superior and flawless .
Religion is something one should choose for themselves. Majority of people connect religion entirely with god almighty. In my belief religion existed because people need certain values and ethics to lead life.

Those who don't believe in god should redefine the meaning of God. I am not going to debate in this context but I am quite sure that the meaning of God and religion are highly misunderstood these days. They aren't followed in the way so as to serve their purpose.

If you feel my understanding is improper please enlighten me.


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## Raaabo (Sep 8, 2013)

Rishi. said:


> I am not much of a Sanskrit manuscript reader. Though I would love to read and understand them all. Thousands of years of collective knowledge.!!!!!!!
> 
> Religion is not flawed. Its how you interpret and follow it.
> Problem occurs when people try to prove how the religion they follow or believe in , is superior and flawless .
> ...



Well said. For me, it doesn't matter what you believe, so long as you are good, harm no one, help those in need and are willing to learn more points of view. Whether you pray, meditate, introspect, do scientific tests, or not, and whether you do it at home in a mosque, church, temple, etc is irrelevant.


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## mediator (Sep 8, 2013)

Raaabo said:
			
		

> If you, yourself say "the best" is "subjective" then who are you to say that what you believe is the "best". Or even more importantly, what others believe is evil. I don't agree with any religion the way it is being preached now, but I only say that. "I" don't believe in it. If someone asks me why, I tell them why, but there is a way to do so. I believe that the vedas were collective knowledge, and are good in many ways, and irrelevant in some ways too, given the world we live in.


Firstly, I don't "believe" for believing is done by unscientific minds. There is a difference between "knowing" and "believing". Sun rises from the east is knowing. Its not a belief. Knowing your own body and its ability after a devoted listening can tell whether you can lift heavier weight today or not. Its not a belief. Similarly, there is a science of consciousness where "knowing" comes into the picture.

Secondly, I don't claim science of consciousness to be the "best", but totally scientific and "higher" than modern science. The context here of "higher" is not to demean the modern science but simply to present that which is beyond materialism, there is an experience which enables the material world to exist, an experience beyond the limitations of the mind and the senses. Just like senses are "higher" than material world and mind higher than the senses, for it is the senses which percieve the material world and mind which control the senses.


Quote one sentence of mine, where I stated it to be the best. Try to read my posts carefully without connecting it to a totally different context. For some Paneer is best, for another Rajma is best. I can create a new fashion out of my limited wardrobe. The context is different!



			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> I disagree, yes we Atheists may hate the killing and rubbish that people do in the name of religion, but I for one am attached to other people, and not money, I don't drink, and yes I question science, all the time, and it's the only "belief" I have come across that actually encourages questioning and improvement with Nobel prizes and the like. Perhaps in the Vedas they got everything right in the first time and explained the whole universe in one shot, or perhaps they didn't. I question even that. Is Yoga good? Of course, and I don't know about around India, but for example a church near my home has Yoga classes, taught by a priest, explaining the names in Sankrit, and what the poses mean, and how they help, and then also using the modern names of the muscles and organs, etc. to make it easier to understand for everyone. I have nothing against the "sciences" of ancient times, I think they should be followed and then evaluated - even medical studies done. I am against blindly following rituals, and nothing more.
> 
> Also, I cannot speak for all atheists, since the very definition is basically non-believer, and who knows what people believe or don't believe in, but I certainly do not subscribe to the idea of an all powerful god, or millions of them. I do not think it prudent to find the spiritual in everything. I will respect a rock, because it might hurt my toe, or be used to bash my head in, but I also think sitting about wondering if a rock has consciousness or a soul is a waste of my time, and perhaps over romanticising everything. though I have nothing against people wanting to sit around for the rest of their lives doing so. If they're not a problem to the world, why restrict that, so be it.


Then technically you are not an atheist. It seems to me that you do not understand the basic meaning of consciousness.

Let me brief for you since you took the time to discuss. The entire universe is pervading with consciousness. Imagine an infinite ocean with tides all around. Are those tides different from the ocean? Now lets say that those tides have a sense of "I" as well where one tide think I'm rising higher than the rest. The question - Is it because of the tide that it is rising high or perhaps because of the various churning of the forces within the ocean? If you understand the concept of "infinity", then you'd also know that you cannot analyze infinity. You cannot cut it or multiply. There is no way you can create division here. Now try to experience infinity. If you think you can visualize it, then you are lying or ignorant for infinity cannot be visualized either. You can only experience it by surrendering the mind! So who is basically seeing the different categorizations of the world? Who is percieving the colorless sky to be blue in the morning?

The faculties of the mind have a natural tendencies to create these divisions, an illusion of color out of colourless, name out of nameless, form out of formless, manifest out of unmanifest, finite out of infinite etc. You are being called Raaabo because of the sake of convenience put by your mind as well as others. Is it going to change the true essence of your nature if you are called by any other name? If this is temporary (name,form,finite etc), then how are you suppose to understand the nature of the true reality?

There is no such thing as time, but why do we percieve time? Why do during our dreams, we often lose a perception of time and space?




			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> I assume nothing, however you assume that I live and breathe technology and have no other interests in life. I also love music, play guitar, the arts, and have read a little of all religions and texts. I will admit that they bore me, and I haven't made it my life's passion to read the Vedas or any or all ancient texts of various faiths, but then who says I need to in order to learn and experience life? There was nothing special about the people who wrote the Bible, and neither was there anything special about the people who wrote the Vedas, it was a collective wisdom, brought forth via thinking and pondering, and I can do the same, as can anyone else here, if they really want to. This discussion forum could theoretically be used to come up with collective wisdom as well, but I certainly don't want people deifying TDF!
> 
> Isn't variety needed? New ideas, new ways of thinking, and does that ever come from blindly following what someone else said? Regardless of whether it was said 12,000 years ago or 12 minutes ago. I absorb what I can, ponder and arrive at my own decision, and then maybe share the logic of why I did that and let the world decide to call me ignorant or wise or just an average individual. For example, you may think me idiotic, or vice versa, but it doesn't make either of us idiots, just different. I still believe that its the recognition of differences of opinions that really helps us evolve, but then again, maybe I'm just ignorant to you.
> 
> ...



When we talk of the world history we usually ignore the Indian history. Earlier we thought the civilization is 4000 yr old, then 5000 and then 10000 etc.

Watch -> *www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQZFS9Hij0M

With this discovery, it is being said that if India is explored and scientific techniques like dating used, it can change a perception of the entire world's history. Earlier it was said that everyone believed that earth is flat. Wh proposed such a theory? Did Indians "believed" that also? You have mentioned about cavemen, but did they exist in India also? The Indian history speaks of yuga cycles where currently we in Kaliyug of which 5000 yrs have already been spent. Before this, we have see the dvapar yug- 432000x2 yrs, treta yug - 432000x3 years, satyuga - 432000x4 years.

Satyuga is an age which is categorized by men of perfect intellgence, perfect intuition, perfect memory, perfect patience and understanding, perfect body and strength. This deteriorates as yugas deteriorates. Kaliyuga is characterised by men of weak morales, low character, low memory, low intelligence, weak bodies and strength. For this matter, I'm happy that the science of military and warfare has been lost for men in this age cannot control anger or have patience to listen to others and weapons becoming a tool for adharma and evil acts instead of controlling adharma. Before Kaliyug started Veda were passed in oral fashion.

It is similar to case where a newborn babies cell regeneration/division is highest and gradually decreases as he grows old. The memory and intelligence (not experience with the external) are highest when he is young and fades into memory loss when he grows old. This is the reason why is it said that you learn faster when you are young. How can we retain that cell regeneration/division, high memory and intelligence? This is a part of Yoga and Ayurveda! Another example can be the flow of water from the mountain peaks to ocean, where it slowly steadily gets polluted and stagnated. But apart from Yugas, it goes beyond to the cyclic nature of time contrary to the linear nature of time as presented by modern science. This cycle does not mean that the same history will repeat. Again the example of an infinite ocean with tides rising and merging can be applied here.

Yoga (perfection), FYI, is not a physical exercise but a concept. Like I have stated before it is applicable to knowledge, surrender of ego-sense, actions, the various asanas whose aim is to further perfect the mind and body unity! If you do not understand meditation, then the next best example I can give is music. The more perfect the technique is, the better is the vessel to contain the flow. Music, as you might know, is presented the best when it is spontaneous or when you don't think much. It just happens when suddenly a chord strikes your empty head and you let it flow. With the technique or the vesself being perfect, it is manifested into the physical world perfectly. This perfection of technique implies the fingers of guitarist to move without his head working. This is called Yoga or perfection.

If the theory of cavemen is discussed, then they exist today also in remote parts and people even in urban areas to be using primitive tools for cooking, cleaning, fixing etc. Perhaps, the fossils of these tools and cavemen will be found some 10000 yrs in the future where people will be discussing that there was an age where the "religion" of modern science was practiced by the "nomads". Try to move beyond the words to the context I'm presenting here.




Coming back and as I have discussed before, The Indian thought is neither about some religion or god or atheists or theists. It is much beyond these limited and childish taggings, the fancies of an immature mind which people have not graduated from. The Indian thought is neither about the impressions you recieve from the TV shows and serials where the devi-devtas are busy conspiring, marrying and leading a life like that of humans. If you are speaking about secularism, then do understand where, how and why it came into being in Europe.

The Quran speaks about attachment to a name Allah : la ilaha il-alaha, mohammed urrasool allah, whereas the Indian texts speak about nameless : Ekam satviprabahuda vadanti, where the infinite is nameless yet called by various names like brahman, purusha (not purush i.e guy if you think) etc, formless yet manifests into various forms like different waves from the same ocean, where that "ideal ocean" is infinite and its essence, the central binding force, immutable, whereas the waves are finite and mutable some marked with a sense of "I" and some not! To be explicit, I hope you understand the metaphor. Many people I discuss this, esp. atheists, think I'm talking about oceans literally. No wonder, they cannot understand the Indian shrutis.



			
				bhagvad-gita said:
			
		

> When a man liberated, free from attachment, with his mind, heart and spirit firmly founded in self-knowledge, does works as sacrifice, all his work is dissolved. *Brahman is the giving, Brahman is the food-offering, by Brahman it is offered into the Brahman fire, Brahman is that which is to be attained by samadhi in Brahman-action.* ( BG 4.23-24)



From the lower/limited perspective of modern science it means, matter and energy (various manifestations) are risen from matter and energy, use matter and energy to exist and become matter and energy during their end. e.g  A person (made up of matter and energy), is born from matter and energy, uses matter and energy as food and becomes matter and energy after his death. 

Can you say that "Allah is the eaten, the eater and the process of eating"? Is yes, then it would make sense as everything in this universe is matter and energy as per modern science and even matter is energy (Refer Quantum Theory).

If you understand any of the above distinctions, then proceed to this for further details : *www.chakranews.com/theism-and-vedas/1540

If you understand that, do read Aurobindo's : The secret of Vedas. It is available freely with pdf format. Trust me, you'll laugh yourself at the average understanding of the Indian philosophies which we see in this thread alone which is not even intellectual in nature, let alone being intelligent! Like Zakir Naik speaks in inferior words : "In Islam everything is "God's" (with an apostrophe s, which gives rise to words like theism and atheism, who is actually Abrahamic and not Indian devi or Devta) where as in Hinduism everything is God" (In Hindi it means divya and divya is not the same as God. These devi-devta are the different powers of the infinite, like air/wind, water, intellect, mind, supermind which are called by terminologies like vayu, varuna, indra, Vishnu etc in the Vedas, Shakti and Shiva in the Tantras, purusha and prakriti in the Gita etc . From divya comes the sanskrit offsprings like deva and even Maya is a devi. There is a similar analogy to the Greek philosophy as well).

Some excerpts from Secret of The Vedas -----


The word go means both cow and light and in a number of passages evidently meant light even while putting forward the image of the cow. This is clear enough
when we have to do with the cows of the sun — the Homeric kine of Helios — and the cows of the Dawn. Psychologically, the physical Light might well be used as a symbol of knowledge and especially of the divine knowledge (Page 43) { i.e cow is the metaphor of light or wisdom/knowledge recieved}


Indra is invoked as the maker of perfect forms to drink the wine of Soma; drinking he becomes full of ecstasy and a “giver of cows” .... A study
s of the Vedic horse led me to the conclusion that go and asva represent the two companion ideas of Light and Energy, Consciousness and Force, which to the Vedic and Vedantic mind were the double or twin aspect of all the activities of existence. (Page 44) { i.e mind is illumined when by the sheer amount of knowledge, the eternal bliss, the truth and thus "giver of cows" by which we can act objectively and wisely }


Agni for the ordinary worshipper may have meant simply the god of the Vedic fire, or it may have meant the principle of Heat and Light in physical Nature, or to the most ignorant it may have meant simply a superhuman personage, one of the many “givers of wealth”, satisfiers of human desire. How suggest to those capable of a deeper conception the psychological functions of the God? The word itself fulfilled that service. For Agni meant the Strong, it meant the Bright, or even Force, Brilliance. So it could easily recall to the initiated, wherever it occurred, the idea of the illumined Energy which builds up the worlds and which exalts man to the Highest, the doer of the great work, the Purohit of the human sacrifice. (Page 56) { i.e Agni is the will power, the force which is one the first devtas who is invoked by Indra i.e mind/itelligence. Obviously this is true in any case. If you want to learn guitar, your mind will automatically increase focus. }


This wine of Soma represents, as we have abundant proof in the Veda and especially in the ninth book, a collection of more than a hundred hymns addressed to the deity Soma, the intoxication of the Ananda, the divine delight of being, inflowing upon the mind from the supramental consciousness through the Ritam or Truth. If we accept these interpretations, we can easily translate the hymn into its psychological significance. (Page 74) { i.e The awakening as experienced by the mind, metaphorically written in the form of drinking of soma by Indra. }


What can these rivers be whose wave is full of Soma wine, full of the ghrta, full of urj, the energy? What are these waters that flow to the goal of the gods’ movement, that establish for man the supreme good?....Obviously these are the waters of the Truth and the Bliss that flow from the supreme ocean. These rivers flow not upon earth, but in heaven; they are prevented by Vritra the Besieger, the Coverer from flowing down upon the earth-consciousness in which we mortals live till Indra, the god-mind, smites the Coverer with his flashing lightnings and cuts out a passage on the summits of that earth-consciousness down which they can flow. Such is the only rational, coherent and sensible explanation of the thought and language of the Vedic sages. (Page 113)


This matter of the lost herds is only part of a whole system of connected symbols and images. They are recovered by the sacrifice and the fiery god Agni is the flame, the power and the priest of the sacrifice; — by the Word, and Brihaspati is the father of the Word, the Maruts its singers or Brahmas, brahmano marutah, Saraswati its inspiration; — by the Wine, and Soma is the god of the Wine and the Ashwins its seekers, finders, givers, drinkers. The herds are the herds of Light and the Light comes
by the Dawn and by the Sun of whom Pushan is a form. Finally, Indra is the head of all these gods, lord of the light, king of the luminous heaven called Swar, — he is, we say, the luminous or divine Mind; into him all the gods enter and take part in his unveiling of the hidden light. We see therefore that there is a perfect appropriateness in the attribution of one and the same victory to these different deities and in Madhuchchhandas’ image of the gods entering into Indra for the stroke against Vala. Nothing has been done at random or in obedience to a confused fluidity of ideas. The Veda is perfect and beautiful in its coherence and its unity. (Page 144)




Vedas : Mind is the chief controller of all the senses, of the breaths in the Human being (inhale, exhale, life breath etc) which we see as "devraj Indra". It is the mind which is always wavering with positive and negative thoughts and yields to the self for the guidance which we see as "Swargaloka always wavering and being attacked by Demons and presided over by devtas and Indra running to Vishnu for guidance".


Shiva and Shakti : Where Shakti is the individual jiva (when perceived at human level) always trying to achieve the state of perfect knowledge i.e Shiva which we see in serials loosely as Shakti always trying to seek Shiva and how consciousness continues seeking even after death e.g Sati to Parvati where the desires are part of the nature of the body, but one has to control over those desires or detach from those desires. This Shiva is residing on the top of Mount Kailash which is metaphor of the human body itself and the super-mind, the top of Kailash which is beyond all the dualities of life, where space and time cease to exist, where past, present, future all become one, which are nothing more than the division created or perceived by the mind only.




-----------------


Some quotes from Aurobindo's : Kena and other Upanishads's


If God is everywhere, He must be in the food we eat. Not only is God the eaten, but He is the eater and eventually, says the Vedanta, when you come to the bottom fact of existence there is neither eaten or eater, but all is God. (Sri Aurobindo, Kena and Other Upanishads, Page 166)


What is the use of avoiding the word “God” and speaking always of the Supreme as “It” simply because the Sanscrit usually, — but not, be it observed, invariably — employs the neuter gender? The neuter in Sanscrit applies not only to what is inanimate but to what is beyond such terms as animate and inanimate, not only to what is below gender but to what is above gender. In English this is not the case. The use of “It” may therefore lead to far more serious misconceptions than to use the term “God” & the pronoun “He”. (Sri Aurobindo, Kena and Other Upanishads, Page 169)


“Now the Mind in dream revelleth in the glory of his imaginings. All that it hath seen it seemeth to see over again, and of all that it hath heard it repeateth the hearing; yea, all that it hath felt and thought and known in many lands and in various regions, these it liveth over again in its dreaming. What it hath seen and what it hath not seen, what it hath heard and what it hath not heard, what it hath known and what it hath not known, what is and what is not, all, all it seeth; for the Mind is the Universe.
But when he is overwhelmed with light, then Mind, the God, dreameth no longer; then in this body he hath felicity.
(Prashna Upanishad, translated by Sri Aurobindo, Pg 186 of Kena and Other Upanishads)


Therefore as all these flowing rivers move towards the sea, but when they reach the sea they are lost in it and name and form break away from them and all is called only the sea, so all the sixteen members of the silent witnessing Spirit move towards the Being, and when they have attained the Being they are lost in Him and name and form break away from them and all is called only the Being; then is He without members and immortal. Whereof this is the Scripture.
(Prashna Upanishad, translated by Sri Aurobindo, Pg 191 of Kena and Other Upanishads) { i.e the waves merging back into the nameless ocean }


Sat, Chit and Ananda are in this Highest, but He is neither Sat, Chit nor Ananda nor any combination of these. He is All and yet He is neti, neti, He is One and yet He is many. He is Parabrahman and He is Parameswara. He is Male and He is Female. He is Tat and He is Sa. This is the Higher than the Highest. He is the Purusha, the Being in whose image the world and all the Jivas are made, who pervades all and underlies all the workings of Prakriti as its reality and self. It is this Purusha that Aswalayana seeks. (Page 289, Sri Aurobindo, Kena and other Upanishads)


it is in another passage stated to have two sides, obverse & reverse, Vidya and Avidya, Science and Nescience. Nescience eternally tends to envelop Science,
Science eternally tends to displace Nescience. Avidya or Nescience is Parabrahman’s power of creating illusions or images, things which seem but are not in themselves; Vidya or Science is His power of shaking off His own imaginations and returning upon His real and eternal Self. The action and reaction of these
two great Energies doing work upon each other is the secret of Universal activity. (Page 378, KOU) { Essentially talking about Purusha and Prakriti and Maya as one of the powers or forms of Prakriti }



Like I stated, the Indian thought is neither the Vedic rituals you see these days nor the presentation of Indian TV shows. It is neither some reduction into childish terminologies like theists, atheists, religion etc.


@Raaabo - The Sun rays take some 8 minutes to reach earth. It simply means that the rays which reach you had left the Sun some 8 minutes in the past. It further means that you are simply viewing the Sun 8 minutes in the past! When you talk to a friend, you are viewing him some nano-seconds (or even lesser) in the past. Entire infrastructure of your body and its individual components follow an order and the reality of Ritam (Universal dharma) . The individual organs understand their own dharma and limitations and work accordingly, so do the celestial bodies, an order within the chaos, where the entire template of your body changes every nanoseconds chemically (billions of atoms inhaled, exhaled, perspired, excretion, drinking, urinating etc), physically (very slow for senses to register), mentally (emotion,wisdom,thoughts, intelligence, analysis etc)! Thus with all these subtle reasonings you are always percieving the external world in the past!

If you think Indian science is "a belief system" with a reasoning that it is archaic and irrelevant, then so has the modern science become a subject of past now the moment you open a science book and read it. Such a "belief" that Indian science is a belief system because it is archaic is only self-destructive! 


Coming back, Why do I still see an order in this extremely chaotic template of yours? Your senses are the ones which analze the external. The mind is the one which analyzes the message passed on by the senses. On whose direction is the mind working? You buy a car, but the thought originated in the past for it (2 days back or 20 years back) before it materializes in the physical world. What all factors were responsible for such a thought - 'buying a car'? From no where a thought might come about your loved ones and you immediately ring them up. It could be random and it could be a result of various forces of nature external as well as internal acting upon you to accumulate into a thought and then your body, a vessel acts to carry that thought forward? Is it really you who are "doing", or your whole life happens to be dance around different thoughts either random, borrowed or accumulated?

Now just like flame does not have a definite shape and the perception of its form keeps on changing (flame reducing, increasing, distorting, flickering etc), similarly how can we say that the shape of Sun is "circular"? With its huge flames coming and going, can we even say that the sun has a definite shape? Moreover, does the Sun exist only in the perception of its flames? Its heat can be felt all over to the Earth and beyond. So my question - Is the Sun limited to its flames only or to its heat beyond as well? Once you understand that and move beyond names, forms, shapes etc, you'd understand that the "essence" of the Sun encompasses the entire Solar System. 

Similar is the nature of the supreme consciousness which resides within but distorted by its own lower natures and polluted at the level of material consciousness/lowest where the world becomes "asat" (it does not mean false, but illusory in the sense of being impermanent or dynamic) where the sat, the static, the permanent, the real can be achieved and known with the faculties of Yoga! Hence Sagun to Nirgun, the union of Shakti with Shiva. You may read chapter 7 of Bhagvad-Gita on this. 




			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> Jokes aside, every time I have heard someone speak of their meditation enlightenments, it's always something totally personal, or something completely weird and irrelevant. Perhaps you are different, and can share your meditation experience with us, however I have yet to meet someone who came up with anything helpful or relevant from meditation personally. The abstract, as far as experience has taught me, may be fun, but it's also totally pointless. Many people get high on drugs just to get exactly that feeling, and we call them addicts and try and fix them.


Meditative experiences are personal indeed and hence I gave the analogy of gym and body types (skin, hari texture ,metabolism, habits etc), but the steps remain the same, a journey from "I" to surrender of "I" and merging with the absolute. It is totally different from the experience of a drug addict. Meditation increases mind control, it is based on detachment from material desires in its holistic meaning as attachment shall remain a burden in the initial process of emptying the mind.  Whereas, addiction to drugs as based on attachment to material desires/drugs which destroys mind control and brain cells where the lowest perception is further reducd to smithereens giving even a lower false perception/"feeling" .



			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> Am I to understand that you also do not comment about anything you haven't "studied" for 5 years? I certainly haven't spent as much time on some of these as you have, but that doesn't mean I should not have an opinion on them. Who sets these rules? If a Sadhu who has spent all his life pondering the vedas comes here and says spend 45 years and then comment, would you go away only to return after 40 years?


You took it literally. What I really requested is that you need to discuss only if you have any genuine interest. There are mods in the forum who have quoted some distorted verses of Gita and then claiming on the top of that distortion, that Gita present offending verses. The basic steps or a genuine research would simply seek - Who said the verse and what is the meaning of the verse, Gathering the complete verse as the first step and then verify it from 2-3 different sources as well, if one is ignorant of Sanskrit. You won't really understand anything if you do not have a genuine interest. Just like all the knowledge of technology (or guitar or gymming) will come to if you have a genuine interest, similar the higher science will come to you as well if you have genuine interest.

The whole universe will conspire to make it happen, if you really genuinely want it. Ofcourse you have to act upon it naturally!



			
				Upanishad said:
			
		

> This Self is not won by exegesis, nor by brain-power, nor by much learning of Scripture. Only by him whom It chooses can It be won; to him this Self unveils its own body. (manduka Upanishad 3.2.3, Page 145)


This inturn related to the chapter on "The Colloquy of Indra and Agastya" from "Secret of Veda by Aurobindo" (Refer page 265) that I request you to read.

Online copy ->  *www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/downloadpdf.php?id=30‎



			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> I would be with you 100% if you had said, what difference does it make if some Mughal broke a temple or not, there was no need to stoop to their level. There was no need to gain political mileage from that, or to try and incite riots, or to hold any value for a piece of land anyway. Someone suggested a hospital on the site, I suggest a museum of science, religion and artifacts for all faiths. Like you, I also would like all kids to be taught all faiths, and science, and then let them choose their own path, instead of trying to breed one another out as all beliefs have attempted for thousands of years.


There is no point in discussing Quran, if you "personally" do not want to discuss it and then use your admin rights to implement the same. Quran is a doctrine. Had it been just another person who had destroyed an unused temple or by Govt procedures, I wouldn't mind. But like I said, research yourself on the history of Iran, Afganistan, Bangladesh, pakistan etc were all places of creativity and now most of their creativity is destroyed! The Doctrine is simple i.e to spread Islam. This includes killing of infidels, people tagged as Jews and Christian, violating women prisoners with an attchment to something called judgement day. You really need to read Quran, I have given you authentic sources with tanslations of three prominent translators and not just another link to some anti-Islamic site. And hence for this reason I had called you ignorant of ground reality. I apologize if it sounds offending. The same pattern exists with the growing number of muslims in France, Britain, US etc. Again, I'm not against people tagged as muslims here but a doctrine that is driving them to demand sharia, behead soldiers (British Royal Guard) for what happened in Afghanistan, Syria, death to US even though US provides large number of jobs to them.

*www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/


I'm not interested in who ridicules the video of Zakir Naik (Ahmaddiya that you pointed out) but simply in discussing Quran, Allah and Mohammed.



			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> My only grouse with Modi is his arrogance


This is something I love about him. He is arrogant for the anti-nationals, but loving for his own people. It is a characteristic a leader needs to have. One who seeks truth is often termed as cold and arrogant. It doesn't mean he has perfectly sought the truth before you raise fingers. I would prefer an arrogant leader who administers well anyday over a robot who seldom speaks, or doesn't know what to speak, take orders from others all the time and when speaks, speaks without any motivation where you have to raise the volume of the TV or concentrate all your energy to your ears to listen him well. 



			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> Also, Mediator. Since I barely passed Sanskrit in school, my only interaction with the Vedas was an old copy of Griffith's translation of the Rig Veda, which, again being honest, bored me pretty quick. Again, it could be my ignorance, or was it because the translation was off?


Griffith, Bloomsfield, Maxmuller were christian missionaries who did major damage to the Indian texts and distorted them (mistranslated) too much. You are bound to get bored. Similarly, stay away from Prabhupad's translations if you don't know Sanskrit. 

I would recommend you => *www.bhagavad-gita.org/

Read it in your own frame of understanding first without seeing the commentaries. If you can understand high level English, then I would recommend you Aurobindo's translations!



Evolution will tear this discussion completely. Lets save it for some other time. Like I said, read the God Vs Science debate, I have discussed there in full length and you may find my questions and reasons there only.





			
				dead5 said:
			
		

> I think that most of Modi's PR is done by the Congress/UPA itself. Due to the endless scams the people will turn to anything that has a chance of getting them out of this mess. The BS slander that goes on against Modi like the 'Rambo' frontpage and P9 clarification also turns people against the current power and makes them curious about Modi. Even if the UPA was good for nothing but didn't participate in so many scams (or at least if they didn't become public) I don't think that Modi would have nearly as much support as he does now.


Very well said!


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## rishitells (Sep 8, 2013)

See, for all those debating on Islamic faith- No matter how many groups are there in Islam, or what philosophy they follow, there is a ‘common ground’ for all of them, uniform belief system, laid by _Quran_, certain beliefs which cannot be questioned, and the _Sharia law_. Instead of translation of Verses, I would like to go into the essence. So what’s the essence of Islam? I have my points, derived after much research-

1.	Pure monotheism. Unadulterated worship of 	one, sole ‘creator’, called the Allah. Echoed by _“La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah”_. Remember, I cannot worship any other God I want to, if I follow Islam. That’s strictly prohibited. I challenge you to question this prohibition in any Muslim scholar in the world.

2.	Six articles of ‘faith’ – One God, belief in Angles as a part of God’s creation, books of God, prophets of God, Day of Final Judgment, supremacy of God’s will.

3.	Intolerance towards other religions, both internal and external. Internally, a Muslim is not allowed to worship any other God except Allah, or engage in any (conceived) ‘ill’ practices like Idol worship. Externally, people are divided into believers and non-believers of Islam (Kafir/ Infidels).

4.	The _Sharia_ law of God, covering many aspects of _Islam_ life like prayer, fasting, sex etc.

So that’s basically what I found out to be very true and authentic. All I see in Islam is a hardcore belief system, an organized religion in true sense. ‘Intolerance’ and blind faith results in clashes, and that’s what happening in most of the Islamic countries, no matter how anybody tries to justify it.


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## Anorion (Sep 8, 2013)

Raaabo said:


> What fiendishly freakish things have you been up to these days?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Im reading gita! 2/3rd of gita. My mind is too pure now, so plan to watch some porn later. 
Most of it is Krishna saying he is the one dude, how those who pray to other gods are unintelligent people indirectly praying to him, an how those who believe in other gods will suffer for multiple lifetimes. At least the punishment for disbelief in certain other faiths does not extend to multiple lives!


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 8, 2013)

@rishitells,your so called research is very poor then.of course if you were carefully reading newspapers like hindu & even times of india daily you would know that there are *female muslim scholars as well as moderate muslim scholars who have refuted the practice of triple talaq & even challenged hardliners to prove it but got no response so far yet.*
One SMS, and Amina Wadud
*i seriously doubt that you or the one posted before you knows even a fraction of what she knows about Islam & yet i don't see her following your version of Islam.*

@Anorion,you made my day with your comment


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## rishitells (Sep 8, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> @rishitells,your so called research is very poor then.of course if you were carefully reading newspapers like hindu & even times of india daily you would know that there are *female muslim scholars as well as moderate muslim scholars who have refuted the practice of triple talaq & even challenged hardliners to prove it but got no response so far yet.*
> One SMS, and Amina Wadud
> *i seriously doubt that you or the one posted before you knows even a fraction of what she knows about Islam & yet i don't see her following your version of Islam.*



Did I even mention Triple Talaq, or any such thing? Did you even read my post before commenting, that what was my intent of posting? Dude, this selective quoting isn't gonna help you. It is my *serious open challenge* to you to refute any of the facts I presented ex- 

- 'Prohibition of worship of any other God except Allah', or doing 'Idol Worship Prohibition'.
- Six Articles of Faith, one of them being the *Judgement Day*
- Concept of believer and non-believer.

That's good if Liberalization of Islam is happening, I am very happy about that since it's much needed in the Islamic world. I salute that Taliban girl Malala who was shot in head by extremist Islamists, and stood for the right of women Internationally. People need to rise above the notion of religion.

I suggest you to read Tasleema Nasreen too, and her view of Islam, why she became anti-Islamic and anti-Religion, and what kind of tortures she has gone throughout her life by Islamists. Read about the Fatwas which were passed against her, read her biography, and then come back. ok.


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## mediator (Sep 8, 2013)

Anorion said:
			
		

> Im reading gita! 2/3rd of gita. My mind is too pure now, so plan to watch some porn later.
> Most of it is Krishna saying he is the one dude, how those who pray to other gods are unintelligent people indirectly praying to him, an how those who believe in other gods will suffer for multiple lifetimes. At least the punishment for disbelief in certain other faiths does not extend to multiple lives!


Excellent. Now try to incorporate the basic meaning of consciousness that I have explained in my post to @Raaabo and then understand what that "I/Me" really means that Krishna propounds.

The same "I/Me" can be found in Devi Purana, "that" in Upanishads etc, a sense of riddle in the poetry. I would request you not to fall to the level of Christian missionaries here and interpret "I/Me" as Krishna asking to worship him only. The devas are simply a representation of lower level of consciousness.

Consult this -> *auromere.wordpress.com/2009/09/26/links-between-vedas-upanishads-tantra-and-puranas/

Even if you fall to that low level of understanding then read what the verse 9.11, 7.24, 18.63 say and entire chapter 7 and 10 for that matter.

BTW, Whose translations are you reading? Anyways, if you are reading with an intent of fault finding instead of understanding with detachment, then you are simply wasting your time!


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## Hrishi (Sep 8, 2013)

Raaabo said:


> Well said. For me, it doesn't matter what you believe, so long as you are good, harm no one, help those in need and are willing to learn more points of view. Whether you pray, meditate, introspect, do scientific tests, or not, and whether you do it at home in a mosque, church, temple, etc is irrelevant.



This my friend is what the world needs.


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## Hrishi (Sep 8, 2013)

We are born in a free world !!!! We are open to change religion and faith in rituals whenever we want and to whatever we feel.
if I feel a specific religion not appropriate , the world has given me a Right to follow and believe in another. Its a shame that there are selfish and foolish people who mock other religions that they don't like. 

And Indians have a greater opportunity be cause they live in a secular state .


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 8, 2013)

> It is my serious open challenge to you to refute any of the *facts I presented*


*who are you to talk about about facts?when it comes to Islam i only consider facts from 2 kinds of people:extremist muslim clerics who can put to shame the most muslim believers or moderate clerics with both being able to recite quran verses in their sleep.*first go to a orthodox muslim cleric & tell him about Amina Wadud & her position about sharia law & then ask him to engage in a debate with her on conservative nature of Islam which he thinks is correct & then post their debate here & you will get your answers.

*it is common sense to not use tone of authority like:i present facts & i challenge you to refute me.such tone of authority befits only those who possess reputable credentials not anonymous posts & quotes over internet.it will help you in your professional as well as personal life if you learn this lesson quickly.*

*if still hard to understand then think about this:would you consider participating in a debate with a world renowned muslim Phd scholar with a condition that if you fail to give credible counter-arguments based on solid sources you will get jail time for hate crimes?if your answer is no then you don't have what it takes to speak in a manner of authority.*

P.S.this is not just for you but everyone here who is bashing other religions.


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## CommanderShawnzer (Sep 8, 2013)

This thread is as big as the Mahabharat!


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 8, 2013)

^^not even close.


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## rishitells (Sep 8, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> *who are you to talk about about facts? when it comes to Islam i only consider facts from 2 kinds of people:extremist muslim clerics who can put to shame the most muslim believers or moderate clerics with both being able to recite quran verses in their sleep.*first go to a orthodox muslim cleric & tell him about Amina Wadud & her position about sharia law & then ask him to engage in a debate with her on conservative nature of Islam which he thinks is correct & then post their debate here & you will get your answers.



I am a debater in the fight-club section to talk about facts, got it? What you consider does not matter to Islam and it's believers. I am not debating about Sharia or an individual Muslim scholar, but about the *basic principles of Islam as a Whole*, which I presented, and which you ignored and continued your meaningless blabbering-

- 'Prohibition of worship of any other God except Allah', or doing 'Idol Worship Prohibition'.
- Six Articles of Faith, one of them being the Judgement Day
- Concept of believer and non-believer.

Whether n extremist clerics, or most Muslim believers/Moderate clerics, these are basic principles, fundamental beliefs, and founding principles of Islam. I already have my answers from major Muslim scholars, especially women like Tasleema Nasrin, whom you ignored again. I don't wish to engage in debate on Sharia law, or any conservative or open Islam. Whether conservative or open, still these *Basic Principles* will remain the same, ok? I challenged you to refute these principles which you seem to ignore again. Question again- *Why are you having pain in accepting these principles?*. These are not *My Facts*, but universal facts of Islam, kindly Google it for yourself before any further comments.

So better wash off your ignorance and gain some knowledge yourself, instead of selective URL mining and quoting Individual scholars. And I again challenge you to refute any of the facts which I presented in post #309. Either have the capacity to debate, else better remain out. A fight club is all about challenging and refuting arguments and facts, understand it properly before debating here. Better say I don't have the guts to research and refute your facts, instead of questioning my credentials and tone. Ok.

Edit: Yes, I would love to love to debate with a world renowned Muslim Phd Scholar and presents these *Three simple Facts*. If he is really a Muslim at all, *He will accept all this facts without any problem.*

*P.S. -> I never bashed a religion, ok. I presented what is written and what "World Renowned Muslim PhD scholars" have researched. If that causes a pain in your heart, then this fight clubs is not for you, strictly speaking.*


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## ico (Sep 8, 2013)

hmm. Homo sapiens sapiens were there in Satyuga. 5000 years of Kali Yuga has passed. So, that makes it: (432000 * 2) + (432000 * 3) + (432000 * 4) + (5000) = 3893000 years. Approxiamately 4 million years ago.

What years are we talking about anyway? Earth years? Pluto years?

Human consciousness is creative. The science of consciousness. Truly yes.


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## snap (Sep 8, 2013)

@rishitells

people treat these idols as gods and bathe them with milk and whatnot if god is everywhere then why treat them with such amount of respect?


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## rishitells (Sep 8, 2013)

*@whitestar_999*

I consider Internet as the God of knowledge in today’s world, where all you need to know about virtually anything is comprehensively available. So give me any link from this God of knowledge that challenges the simple facts about Islam I presented, like Pure Monotheism, Six articles of Faith, or Five Pillars, and believer, non-believer ‘concept’. If you find me any, I promise you I will accept Islam with utter happiness. 

Let me quote the basic Biodata of Islam for you from Patheos Library –


			
				Patheos Library said:
			
		

> “Islam is a monotheistic religious tradition that developed in the Middle East in the 7th century C.E. Islam, which literally means "surrender" or "submission," was founded on the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad as an expression of surrender to the will of Allah, the creator and sustainer of the world. The Quran, the sacred text of Islam, contains the teachings of the Prophet that were revealed to him from Allah. Essential to Islam is the belief that *Allah is the one and true God with no partner or equal*. Islam has several branches and much variety within those branches. The two divisions within the tradition are the Sunni and Shi'a, each of which claims different means of maintaining religious authority. One of the unifying characteristics of Islam is the *Five Pillars*, the fundamental practices of Islam. These five practices include a ritual profession of faith, ritual prayer, the zakat (charity), fasting, and the hajj (a pilgrimage to Mecca). Many Muslims are characterized by their commitment to praying to Allah five times a day. One of the defining characteristics of Islam is the primacy of sacred places including Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem. Muslims gather at mosques to worship Allah, pray, and study scripture. There is not a sharp distinction between the religious and secular aspects of life in Islam; all aspects of a Muslim's life are to be oriented to serving Allah. Islam expanded almost immediately beyond its birthplace in the Arabian peninsula, and now has significant influence in Africa, throughout Asia, Europe, and the Americas.”


Source: Islam Origins, Islam History, Islam Beliefs

Would you like to refute any statement from this library bio, too, and point any statement of mine which contradicts with this bio?


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 8, 2013)

@rishitells,it is obviously clear to me that you are not worth my time so this will be my last reply to you as per my rules.perhaps next time you might want to post some links/references to those scholars you talked to for the sake convincing others(not me now obviously) & i hope that they are not someone whose name search in google does not include a single link to a reputable english national daily(indian or international) unlike *www.google.co.in/search?q=Amina+Wadud

edit:last advice from me:whether research or simple debate on a technological forum there is always a difference between creditable & dime-a-dozen sources on internet.no matter what the fad is when it comes to credibility the good old paper media still rules(read newspapers,libraries,university commissioned studies etc).


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## rishitells (Sep 8, 2013)

snap said:


> @rishitells
> 
> people treat these idols as gods and bathe them with milk and whatnot if god is everywhere then why treat them with such amount of respect?



I don't want to engage in Polytheism vs Monotheism debate, as I didn't start one. But what problem do you have with Idol worshipers?  As *@raaabo* said in the debate-



			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> Well said. For me, it doesn't matter what you believe, so long as you are good, harm no one, help those in need and are willing to learn more points of view. *Whether you pray, meditate, introspect, do scientific tests, or not, and whether you do it at home in a mosque, church, temple, etc is irrelevant.*



Let anyone worship Idols if he/she wants. If they are happy by doing so, why be a hurdle in their happiness? They might be seeing God in an Idol, what's wrong with that? Don't we put the portraits of our deceased ancestors in home and respect them? Those people may have the same love for the Idol, what's the problem?


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## amjath (Sep 8, 2013)

rishitells said:


> - 'Prohibition of worship of any other God except Allah', or doing 'Idol Worship Prohibition'.
> - Six Articles of Faith, one of them being the Judgement Day
> - Concept of believer and non-believer.



-Followers of Islam should follow the creator not the creation. Idol is a creation. Period
-An employee fears his manager and does his job correctly so that he doesn't want lose his salary. Likewise a muslim should have something to fear that's judgement day, so that he does his job correctly and wisely here



rishitells said:


> *
> 
> I consider Internet as the God of knowledge in today’s world, where all you need to know about virtually anything is comprehensively available. *


*

If I lie on the internet, Will u believe.*


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## rishitells (Sep 8, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> @rishitells,it is obviously clear to me that you are not worth my time so this will be my last reply to you as per my rules.perhaps next time you might want to post some links/references to those scholars you talked to for the sake convincing others(not me now obviously) & i hope that they are not someone whose name search in google does not include a single link to a reputable english national daily(indian or international) unlike *www.google.co.in/search?q=Amina+Wadud
> 
> edit:last advice from me:whether research or simple debate on a technological forum there is always a difference between creditable & dime-a-dozen sources on internet.no matter what the fad is when it comes to credibility the good old paper media still rules(read newspapers,libraries,university commissioned studies etc).



Is it a 10 year old kid whining after he couldn't prove himself right, so attack personally and question person credentials and reputation? Do I have to be Vivekananda or Amina Wadud in order to debate here? If you are so fond of reputable persons, then please go to this link too.  This person is definitely more reputable than the one you told me about- 

Taslima Nasrin

I presented basic facts of Islam in plain English and still your are having problem with that. What can I do? You should not debate here in fight club bro, because as the section tag line says-



			
				fight club said:
			
		

> The Debate Zone. Sensitive and controversial topics will be discussed here — only the thick-skinned should enter



And I don't your skin is thick enough to debate on such topics, as you are continuously personalizing the debate. Good bye, nice to see you.


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## ico (Sep 8, 2013)

amjath said:


> If I lie on the internet, Will u believe.


^ hehe. good one.


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## Faun (Sep 8, 2013)

Rishi. said:


> And Indians have a greater opportunity be cause they live in a secular state .


There are better places to live.

@amjath
It's a personal question. But let's assume that you have a sister and she fell in love with someone from other religion. 

Would you be ok if she leaves her faith or if the guy refuses to follow Islam or lets say her children are allowed to follow any faith they like once they understand the life better ?

Again, it's not compulsory to answer it.


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## rishitells (Sep 8, 2013)

amjath said:


> -Followers of Islam should follow the creator not the creation. Idol is a creation. Period
> -An employee fears his manager and does his job correctly so that he doesn't want lose his salary. Likewise a muslim should have something to fear that's judgement day, so that he does his job correctly and wisely here



So at least you admitted the points. But remember, that you can only follow one creator i.e. Allah, and you are prohibited from worshiping any other Gods as written in the library- *Allah is the one and true God with no partner or equal.*

I can do my job without fear, correctly and wisely, with freedom and open-mind not closed by belief but open by wonder. 



> If I lie on the internet, Will u believe.



I have the capability of spotting a lie. On the Internet, a lie can be spotted with a single Google search. I don't believe anything unless I cross-check it maximum times possible, from maximum possible sources, and books too. And BTW I have a whole library of reference books and study material, scriptures and everything to refer, so I need not to worry about lies. You do, probably.


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 8, 2013)

just as a note to those here who might take my posts negatively i once engaged in an online debate with someone over a question of whether the gene technology holds answers to all of mankind's diseases which i was against & posted many arguments finally ending with posting a medical study done by one of the biggest US hospitals & by a doctor with degrees from top most medical schools in my support & people still refused to agree with me.around the same time in another debate involving a geographical question i posted a statement directly from the study of a scientist published in TIMES magazine & still same refusal to agree with me.*since that time i have stopped posting such thoroughly researched posts because it is simply not worth it.internet for most of the time is not meant for serious debates on issues like religion,science or economy.*


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## amjath (Sep 8, 2013)

rishitells said:


> So at least you admitted the points. But remember, that you can only follow one creator i.e. Allah, and you are prohibited from worshiping any other Gods as written in the library- *Allah is the one and true God with no partner or equal.*
> 
> I can do my job without fear, correctly and wisely, with freedom and open-mind not closed by belief but open by wonder.



Its my belief that Allah is my God
Its Christian belief that Jesus is their God etc etc
What is ur problem in it? I don't know. 
If we believe and fell into into ditch or land on a garden. Why are you jealous.

A job will always be reviewed by someone or the other that is what i meant. The followers of Islam think their job will be reviewed


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## rishitells (Sep 8, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> *since that time i have stopped posting such thoroughly researched posts because it is simply not worth it.internet for most of the time is not meant for serious debates on issues like religion,science or economy.*



I strongly disagree. If Internet isn't, when what is? On internet you cannot present a wrong fact, or statistic, for you will be caught in second lying. Internet is a boon for the debaters and discussions, as they don't have to take up a book, read 10-12 pages and then coming back to the debate.



amjath said:


> Its my belief that Allah is my God
> Its Christian belief that Jesus is their God etc etc
> What is ur problem in it? I don't know.
> If we believe and fell into into ditch or land on a garden. Why are you jealous.
> ...



Hmm.. I can worship Krishna, Rama, Allah, Jesus at the same time without thinking that in the Scriptures of my tradition it is not allowed to worship any other God except my one.. I visit Mosques, Gurudwaras, Churches and Temples.  I consider *Myself as My God*, too, without wondering if my *scripture prohibits* this or not. I can adore a Krishna statue as well as a Chadar at a Dargah, without thinking that I have to follow Monotheism or Polytheism according to my Scripture or *Holy Book*. I can live my life as I want, without worrying about the Scripture guidelines, unlike the ardent followers of *organized religions.* 

Hope you got what I want to say.


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## amjath (Sep 8, 2013)

rishitells said:


> I strongly disagree. If Internet isn't, when what is? On internet you cannot present a wrong fact, or statistic, for you will be caught in second lying. Internet is a boon for the debaters and discussions, as they don't have to take up a book, read 10-12 pages and then coming back to the debate.
> 
> Hmm.. I can worship Krishna, Rama, Allah, Jesus at the same time without thinking that in the Scriptures of my tradition it is not allowed to worship any other God except my one.. I visit Mosques, Gurudwaras, Churches and Temples.  I consider *Myself as My God*, too, without wondering if my *scripture prohibits* this or not. I can adore a Krishna statue as well as a Chadar at a Dargah, without thinking that I have to follow Monotheism or Polytheism according to my Scripture or *Holy Book*. I can live my life as I want, without worrying about the Scripture guidelines, unlike the ardent followers of *organized religions.*
> 
> Hope you got what I want to say.



If u think u dont want to listen to some guidelines, then u should have not listen to ur mom's guidelines when u r a kid. Now u grow urself and say i wont listen to anyone. 
Driving on a road has some set of guidelines, try not to follow it. 
Your body has some set of guidelines like drinking water, eating food, taking bath. There is no necessity that u have to follow.

Religion has guidelines, if u dont follow it neither the guidelines aren't going to change nor it will change you.

But so called guidelines are clear that go and poke at everyone saying that I have freedom of everything


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## CommanderShawnzer (Sep 8, 2013)

rishitells said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK.So you wrote such a big Ramayan with such Long-ass posts just to prove Agnosticism is superior?
Such a waste of time,energy and bandwidth and grey cells i think


See,This a very Boss-ly way to say "My belief is superior"


Spoiler



I'm Catholic so
*4.bp.blogspot.com/-j-Li5vlVdj0/UA76XPJ7_KI/AAAAAAAAAyc/aJJuJub6jic/s320/come+at++me+bro.jpg


You could use something similar,AND get lol/troll points


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## rishitells (Sep 8, 2013)

*@CommanderShawnzer*

It's funny what you interpreted from my post. It was in flow of debate on religious intolerance, where I advocated freedom instead of intolerance, such as prohibition of worship. And BTW, I have no belief as belief can be shattered by logical conviction. I am not trying to put anything superior over other. Kindly do not pull statements out of context.

I don't want you to come to me bro, I have my own life to live. Live your life the way you want.


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## Anorion (Sep 8, 2013)

mediator said:


> 2. Life originated in Africa? Are you still living in the delusions of "Evolution theory" and "believe blindly" that that your ancestors have "Evolved" from some apes? This is been debunked in this forum alone, where evolution has been reduced to joke in international community and challenged by the likes of ID/Genesis etc and modern science by quantum mechanics (Read Tao of Physics by Fritjof Capra). So when exactly did "life originate" in Africa may his highness tell me? I don't even know if you are qualified enough (not qualifications) to talk to me about "science" for you might not take the questions I might put forward to you.



hmm maybe the vedic society guessed at hereditary characteristics, Arjuna, with the permission of Krishna was an informed geneticist (not sure which varna that profession would come under)



mediator said:


> The actions of a vaisya born of his own nature are agriculture, cow protection and trade; also the actions of a sudra born of his own nature consists in service to brahmanas, ksatriyas and vaisyas





mediator said:


> O Krishna, when unrighteousness is predominant then women in the family become degraded and from the degradation of womanhood O Krishna; undesirable progeny comes into existence.


problem is there is no scope for training or learning, or even realization, you are born with it. question still stands, why only women can be degraded and not men?

fortunately we have things like mitochondrial DNA, that allow us to reasonably guess that all modern humans came from africa, even if we borrowed technology, language and traditions from earlier humans, who also btw, came out of Africa

*i.imgur.com/TEI7U1y.jpg


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## ico (Sep 8, 2013)

*Re: Indian Economy Going down*

heh. Even the Abrahamites refuse to believe that humans evolved from primates.


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## CommanderShawnzer (Sep 8, 2013)

OT: @Anorion : "Holy Paladin of Legitness" Hmmm....
I feel like i've seen that somewhere


----------



## whitestar_999 (Sep 8, 2013)

mitochondrial DNA is one of the most basic principle of finding evolutionary links especially in humans because it is inherited only from mother.in fact there was a article related to this concept recently in newspaper:
DNA test reveals Prince William's Indian ancestry - Times Of India
also just for a quick read:
Mitochondrial Eve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## ico (Sep 8, 2013)

Raaabo misphrased a bit. Wanted to say something else but wrote something else.

*"Life"* didn't originate from Africa. Homo sapiens sapiens speciated there. Atleast most evidence suggests so.

I dunno in which Yuga it was.


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## Anorion (Sep 8, 2013)

ico said:


> hmm. Homo sapiens sapiens were there in Satyuga. 5000 years of Kali Yuga has passed. So, that makes it: (432000 * 2) + (432000 * 3) + (432000 * 4) + (5000) = 3893000 years. Approxiamately 4 million years ago.



4 million years is the divergence point between other apes and humans


> The splitting date between human and chimpanzee lineages is placed around 4-8 million years ago during the late Miocene epoch


src

we still had loads of body hair then


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## ico (Sep 8, 2013)

Anorion said:


> 4 million years is the divergence point between other apes and humans
> 
> src
> 
> we still had loads of body hair then


yup. I'm completely aware of that. You don't need to cite wiki.  Not the diveregence point of "Homo sapiens sapiens" though. We've had more ancestors in between.

But surely the newly speciated human ancestors were not this intelligent back then so called Sat Yuga. The "all perfect" concept which was being proposed in this thread.

oh yea, we sure were more intelligent. At least didn't believe in written and historical bull$hit. Just failed at getting some answers. Tried to find answers over the period of time. Wrote something. That's what happens - trying to pass on "knowledge" onto the next generation until they come up with something better. Whether you look into "modern science" or the "pseudo-science of conciousness".

Reason should prevail.


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## mediator (Sep 8, 2013)

Anorion said:
			
		

> problem is there is no scope for training or learning, or even realization, you are born with it. question still stands, why only women can be degraded and not men?


You have already disconnected the verse 1.40 with the earlier ones and the immediate ones alone. How are you going to understand the riddle of Bhagvad-Geet with such a mindset and lack of memory to be able to retain all the 18 chapters and understand it as one conversation? 

Moreover, like I said understand Arjun's dilemma, confusion and sadness here. I guess you should stop here and read nice quotes from Paulo Coelho instead. That seems to be the holy scripture for the modern day guys. 

Anyways, the problem with the modern science researches is that they keep on changing with time and those who actively propogate as sources of their knowledge will have to redo as that research changes. In Hindi it is like a proverb : dhobi ka kutta na ghar ka na ghaat ka.

Its a proverb before you think I'm abusing anyone.

Rethinking “Out of Africa” | DNAeXplained – Genetic Genealogy
The Minoans were Caucasian: DNA debunks longstanding theory that Europe's first advanced culture was from Africa | Mail Online
and then you have debunks on ancient aliens, people came from mars theory and it keeps on getting even more boring. Just give it 10 years and I bet half of the theories and 'researches' will change already! Yes, you can say that this how modern science works and progresses. 

Like I have already stated, bharatvarsh was the entire world and not just present India. If you are going by the migration structure, then the first question automatically comes is : What was the structure of continents at the time of Mahabharat alone? Or is it our assumption that it was the same as today?


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## Faun (Sep 8, 2013)

Anorion said:


> we still had loads of body hair then



we still have more hair than few primates


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## BombayBoy (Sep 9, 2013)

Faun said:


> we still have more hair than few primates



Yes. It's just that our body hair is softer and smaller (than say monkeys) unless someone's like the Jhakaas - Anil Kapoor


----------



## Raaabo (Sep 9, 2013)

mediator said:


> Firstly, I don't "believe" for believing is done by unscientific minds. There is a difference between "knowing" and "believing". Sun rises from the east is knowing. Its not a belief. Knowing your own body and its ability after a devoted listening can tell whether you can lift heavier weight today or not. Its not a belief. Similarly, there is a science of consciousness where "knowing" comes into the picture.



The sun rises in the East? Yes, a fact in the old world. However, today we know that the sun actually doesn't "rise" it's the spot on earth you're standing at that turns to face the sun, and sunrise is different for everyone. In the circles it rises and sets once in 6 months. Science and exploration taught us that. No one "knows" anything about their body, they "believe". how much weight can you lift right now this very instant? Exact, to the nearest kilo? no one knows these things, which is why we lift some, if it's too heavy we take off some, if it's liftable we try and lift more. Weightlifters go through years of extensive training and keep pushing. There is no absolute, there is no knowing, there is only exploring.



mediator said:


> Secondly, I don't claim science of consciousness to be the "best", but totally scientific and "higher" than modern science. The context here of "higher" is not to demean the modern science but simply to present that which is beyond materialism, there is an experience which enables the material world to exist, an experience beyond the limitations of the mind and the senses. Just like senses are "higher" than material world and mind higher than the senses, for it is the senses which percieve the material world and mind which control the senses.
> 
> Quote one sentence of mine, where I stated it to be the best. Try to read my posts carefully without connecting it to a totally different context. For some Paneer is best, for another Rajma is best. I can create a new fashion out of my limited wardrobe. The context is different!



As you stated, "higher" implies better, and the way you speak of it implies better. Maybe not best, but it sure sounds like you feel that people who do not follow the vedas, or think of the mind and consciousness differently are illiterate or ignorant.

However the world was here before you came along, and will be here after you depart it. It was here before all humans came along, and will be here after they depart it. Their perception of it does not govern it. This is what the problem is with humanity, this feeling of being special. It's what all religions are based on, you're not ordinary and pointless, you are special... wow, feels good, so it must be right. Human beings are the most narcissistic of creatures around, and want desperately to find a higher purpose and meaning. Is it possible that there exists a consciousness that is on a higher plane or maybe in a different dimension, sure, it’s also possible that God is a green goblin with one testicle and breasts, and is actually a little monster baby and entire universes are just motes in his / her snow globe that is shaken about now and then. And, it’s also equally possible that human beings give themselves too much importance and religion and higher purposes are just tricks the mind plays to prevent people from going nuts and killing themselves. Thus the “faith”. And yes, you have it too.



mediator said:


> Then technically you are not an atheist. It seems to me that you do not understand the basic meaning of consciousness.
> 
> Let me brief for you since you took the time to discuss. The entire universe is pervading with consciousness. Imagine an infinite ocean with tides all around. Are those tides different from the ocean? Now lets say that those tides have a sense of "I" as well where one tide think I'm rising higher than the rest. The question - Is it because of the tide that it is rising high or perhaps because of the various churning of the forces within the ocean? If you understand the concept of "infinity", then you'd also know that you cannot analyze infinity. You cannot cut it or multiply. There is no way you can create division here. Now try to experience infinity. If you think you can visualize it, then you are lying or ignorant for infinity cannot be visualized either. You can only experience it by surrendering the mind! So who is basically seeing the different categorizations of the world? Who is percieving the colorless sky to be blue in the morning?
> 
> ...



I prefer to classify myself as an atheist, and many atheists I meet are similar. I think you have a narrow view of atheism, and those who only accept what can be proven or measured or seen. 

The entire universe isn’t full of consciousness. It may be, it may not be, there is no proof of consciousness other than on Earth for the moment. Anything said more than that is based on faith, and nothing more. Sure you may “believe” that it is so, but sorry, it isn’t fact, just your faith. It’s not even an improper-yet-accepted-fact like the “sun rising in the east”.

The concept of infinity has always existed to all thinking beings. To a man standing on a sea shore, the horizon is an infinite distance. Mathematically you can analyse infinity in a few ways, for example anything divided by infinity = 0. Or anything divided by zero is infinity. Actually not exactly, but for the sake of simplicity an acceptable compromise.

Also, nothing is infinite, which is the beauty of the world around us. It may take “forever” to reach the edges of the galaxy travelling at the speed of a rocket-boosted engine today, but that forever is a number. It can be calculated, if we ever went there. Infinity simply means too long to bother about researching and calculating anymore in everyday life, and undefined/error in mathematics.

As for time, it’s very real. Many people will complain about the time it takes to read these posts. 

Without time there would be stasis, and nothing at all. The very reason anything exists is time, so is time God? There is no higher plane of consciousness needed to understand time. It is then and now and what we assume/hope will be. Someone broke it into seconds and hours and days so we could keep track and have a common reference frame, so we can make appointments or say “two days ago the bad men came and slaughtered our cattle”, or whatever. Today we have refined the art of telling time, where before it was “many moons ago” or maybe in ancient years their way of saying many moons was to say what now translates to a century or a thousand years. We don’t know. It’s common for people to exaggerate. Before infinity, it was “thousands of years”. In fact the yugas people follow themselves are measures of time. And even Bhrama has limited time and dies after a specified time (only to be born again – resurrection is the hook for people in this particular religion). 

The problem I have with most ancient texts is that the translator sees what he wants to see.

For example in the Yugas, what was first 4800 years then became 4800 _divine_ years when things didn’t match up. Extensions of time in such a manner seem a little convenient to me, even though I am all for updating science and realising that what we know is only what we know today. However, facts that are provable are just my preferred way of operating.

It’s like the people who call Nostradamus a seer. If anything he was probably inspired by ancient texts to predict events in this way. The use of tongues to veil apparent meanings is still applied by scamsters when you go for tarot card readings, or those who read tea leaves. No one will tell you “You will die tomorrow” because that’s clear and concise. Instead it will be veiled in the form of “Your death will be peaceful and will coincide with the meetings in the heavens of <random name> and <another random name>, but only when the moon is in the ascent…” you get the idea. This is an age old magician’s trick. Distract and dazzle. All religions do this. You will find multiple sites online that will tell you how the Bible is always right, even today, and uses verses to prove even the modern era, and how it’s a problem of our “understanding” of the texts. You will find the same for the Quran, for example, explaining everything that science has found out today. I have no doubt that the “Indians” of that era were more scientific in their observations, and thus were obviously more accurate. I have no problems with many of the sayings, including those which talk about greed, and try and better our lives. 




mediator said:


> When we talk of the world history we usually ignore the Indian history. Earlier we thought the civilization is 4000 yr old, then 5000 and then 10000 etc.
> 
> Watch -> Dwarka, India - 12,000 Year Old City of Lord Krishna Found - *Full* - YouTube
> 
> ...




What we “thought” is perhaps the wrong way to put it. What we “knew for sure” until the discovery of this city is better. There are squabbles over dating of course but certainly 9,500 years, and yes I’ve seen a history channel documentary that wanted to hype it and said 32000 years, and also claimed Krishna was an alien. 

Here’s more proof of civilised life older than we previously discovered.
Gobekli Tepe: The World

What is civilised life however? There are cave paintings we know of as old as 40,000 years ago. Humanoid remains have been found all over the globe and carbon date between 7 million years and 2 million years ago. Is it the building of cities that defines civilisation? Is it grouping together and living together? Life’s existed for millions of years on Earth, and the fossils we found prove that. We cannot prove exactly when it started, but the estimates will do for now. 




mediator said:


> Satyuga is an age which is categorized by men of perfect intellgence, perfect intuition, perfect memory, perfect patience and understanding, perfect body and strength. This deteriorates as yugas deteriorates. Kaliyuga is characterised by men of weak morales, low character, low memory, low intelligence, weak bodies and strength. For this matter, I'm happy that the science of military and warfare has been lost for men in this age cannot control anger or have patience to listen to others and weapons becoming a tool for adharma and evil acts instead of controlling adharma. Before Kaliyug started Veda were passed in oral fashion.



Sorry, but again this is where we diverge. You may call it “knowing” for as long as you want, but there is no physical proof of this. It is “belief”. Sure, we believe that city to be 12000 years old, but carbon dating of the oldest artifacts found will date it at around 9500. Small leaps of faith are possible, sure, like believing that the city found was built and developed for almost 3000 years before it perished – very, very believable. Also believable that there were a bunch of nomads living there 9500 years ago, and say, 2000 years later that developed into a city. But we’d rather “believe” that the city was in fact older, and sure, nothing wrong with that. The truth will lie somewhere close to what the facts can prove anyway.

However, believing that there were “perfect beings” in a time when all fossils and physical proof shows only cave men, or dinosaurs, depending on whether you go with the yuga definition of “years” or “divine years”. Something tells me that there would be some physical evidence of this. There is none. Apparently perfect beings didn’t need shelter from the weather, or the ice age, or anything. Now of course perhaps the weather was perfect, much like the beings, however even that is proven wrong when we look at rock formations, permafrost going back hundreds of thousands of years. Much like counting the rings on the trees and looking at the way in which those rings are formed we can tell what the weather was, the same applies to rock, ice, etc.

Perhaps the more probably explanation is that the ancients themselves after exploring and finding no evidence of life before this, despite knowing that for as long as they could recall, life had existed, decided that the earlier beings must have been perfect in every way, not needing to eat, build cities, etc. Knowing human psychology, looking at our villages and the things they concoct as beliefs, this is perfectly plausible. Take a bunch of children from today, put them in complete isolation away from all technology and other humans, and they will grow up with belief systems of their own. Just as many nomadic tribes and the tribes living in protected parts of Andaman also have beliefs that may or may not match with science and / or any other religion. Sure it’s common for people to realise that when you throw something up, it always comes down. Make a law for that, or call it god’s magnet, or gravity. Yet only modern science can tell you the gravity on the moon, for instance.



mediator said:


> It is similar to case where a newborn babies cell regeneration/division is highest and gradually decreases as he grows old. The memory and intelligence (not experience with the external) are highest when he is young and fades into memory loss when he grows old. This is the reason why is it said that you learn faster when you are young. How can we retain that cell regeneration/division, high memory and intelligence? This is a part of Yoga and Ayurveda! Another example can be the flow of water from the mountain peaks to ocean, where it slowly steadily gets polluted and stagnated. But apart from Yugas, it goes beyond to the cyclic nature of time contrary to the linear nature of time as presented by modern science. This cycle does not mean that the same history will repeat. Again the example of an infinite ocean with tides rising and merging can be applied here.



Perfectly fine for a “belief”, no proof exists of this though. Show me one sadhu or human, not in folklore, but in reality, who lived to be 200. All of this perfection must account for something? There are people doing yoga all their lives, vegetarians, praying every day, reading vedas, never hurt a fly, and they live to be what? 110 max? And I agree with cyclic nature, and all that is created will one day be destroyed. That’s just common sense, isn’t it? Nothing lasts forever, moments are but fleeting, what is born must die… there are so many quotes just like that. We know the sun will burn out one day too, and the universe will end a trillion trillion years from now (or tomorrow!). If a caveman who lost his home and family in an earthquake drew “life is a cycle” in pictures, expressing his grief over the loss of his family, but also expressing hope that he would have a new one, how would he do it? How would he show a cycle. He’d draw a rising sun and a setting one, and show death of his family, trying to associate the cycle of night and day. 40,000 years later, would we know what he meant? We can date it sure, but there will be people who will draw conclusions that the cavemen knew! THEY KNEW!!! We’d scream from the rooftops, that even the sun would die one day. What smart people they were! This is the problem with interpretations of ancient languages. 2 + 2 = 4 is universal, but making everything be born from four types of cosmic sounds? Now that string theory is being debated, of course there will be people who will say, hey in ancient Sanskrit, sound wasn’t meant to be “sound” it means just cosmic vibrations, and the playing of the strings of the gods that created the universe. See how that works? Hindsight is 20-20, but for me, sitting and listening to a physicist, using fact and details seems to make sense. Truly intelligent people communicate well, and hide nothing behind double speak. They give examples of how things work, and how that translates to something more complex. Language is the first thing to change when new discoveries are made. The difference between sound and cosmic vibrations would be apparent – we don’t call everything atoms or molecules when we discovered electrons and protons. We didn’t say “smaller atoms” or just call everything small particles. You name something you discover, or even think of. Sci-fi writers called their ideas something. Even if it was the combination of words. Thus you get solar sails, dark matter, anti-matter. We don’t say use the word matter to describe both dark matter and normal matter, we distinguish.

However with all religious texts, that differentiation is done by the reader, sometimes thousands of years later – saying oh he didn’t mean this, he meant that. Sorry, but if the ancients were that brilliant, to figure out all that the rest of humanity has taken thousands of more years to, then they would have said so, and not allowed you to update your belief to include string theory when it came along. What if it had been called satan’s theory, then what would happen to the “cosmic sounds”?



mediator said:


> Yoga (perfection), FYI, is not a physical exercise but a concept. Like I have stated before it is applicable to knowledge, surrender of ego-sense, actions, the various asanas whose aim is to further perfect the mind and body unity! If you do not understand meditation, then the next best example I can give is music. The more perfect the technique is, the better is the vessel to contain the flow. Music, as you might know, is presented the best when it is spontaneous or when you don't think much. It just happens when suddenly a chord strikes your empty head and you let it flow. With the technique or the vesself being perfect, it is manifested into the physical world perfectly. This perfection of technique implies the fingers of guitarist to move without his head working. This is called Yoga or perfection.
> 
> If the theory of cavemen is discussed, then they exist today also in remote parts and people even in urban areas to be using primitive tools for cooking, cleaning, fixing etc. Perhaps, the fossils of these tools and cavemen will be found some 10000 yrs in the future where people will be discussing that there was an age where the "religion" of modern science was practiced by the "nomads". Try to move beyond the words to the context I'm presenting here.



I agree, everything you talk about is a concept. No harm in that. Even modern science has concepts and theories that people arrive at with mathematical and physical hints, and then set their lives aside to try and prove. Often failing, but sometimes succeeding. As a musician myself I agree, spontaneity is important, it encourages creativity. However it’s also done with rules – so many bars, so many notes, etc. some notes together sound wrong, and that’s why you have chords, some progressions grate your ears, and thus you have scales. There’s still a science to it, and formal training is sought, but still creativity and changing or challenging old theories is encouraged. In the end it’s what do the the people who listen to the music like? Again subjective, because what I like you may love or hate. However, again, even an absolutely untrained musician, just a regular listener of even Indian classical can listen in to me playing guitar and almost always correctly comment – “You made a mistake there right?” Some things just don’t fit. However, playing well requires concentration. The more skillfull the piece being played, the more concentration is required. The brain is more focussed on the finger movements and the picking, and less likely to notice a tomato being hurled at him from the crowd. This is exactly what I mean by not understanding meditation. People say it’s not focus, yet in order to draw your focus away from your surroundings, you need to focus elsewhere, be lost in something, in thought, in introspection. You can sit and just focus on your breathing, for example, but that’s just extreme focus, and biology explains away why you lose sense of everything else. In dreams, you always see faces you have seen somewhere before, no human “creates” a face in a dream. That is not losing oneself in an ocean, it sounds more like some electrical leakage in a PC causing random data of your PC to display on a screen.




mediator said:


> Coming back and as I have discussed before, The Indian thought is neither about some religion or god or atheists or theists. It is much beyond these limited and childish taggings, the fancies of an immature mind which people have not graduated from. The Indian thought is neither about the impressions you recieve from the TV shows and serials where the devi-devtas are busy conspiring, marrying and leading a life like that of humans. If you are speaking about secularism, then do understand where, how and why it came into being in Europe.



In order to understand the vedas, don’t I have to believe that Brahma created everything, Vishnu will destroy it all, etc? Isn’t everything put in context with those beliefs? I honestly don’t know because everything I have read thus far says so (which is I am SURE a miniscule fraction of what you have read on the subject). I am the first to claim ignorance of this because it turns me off when the very first words or sentences ask me to make a leap of faith and just “believe” with no facts being provided. Good writing for me lays out facts first, then if necessary asks you to take a leap of faith, all the while explaining why that leap of faith may and may not be right. I like to have all my bases covered. Again I’m not merely a techno junky, so don’t pounce on the example that follows – would you trust a review for the iPhone that said, trust me, it sucks (or trust me, it rocks). Would you automatically assume that since Digit’s an old brand in technology, we know what we’re saying? After you got your hands on the iPhone, would you then automatically start assuming we meant that the camera is bad (or that the battery life is good), etc., as reasons why it sucks (or rocks). Would you automatically trust us implicitly, saying we must have been scientific about our conclusions, because look, here are 30 other phone reviews we got right as well? I hope you get the point I am making, but I can always bring more examples into this.



mediator said:


> The Quran speaks about attachment to a name Allah : la ilaha il-alaha, mohammed urrasool allah, whereas the Indian texts speak about nameless : Ekam satviprabahuda vadanti, where the infinite is nameless yet called by various names like brahman, purusha (not purush i.e guy if you think) etc, formless yet manifests into various forms like different waves from the same ocean, where that "ideal ocean" is infinite and its essence, the central binding force, immutable, whereas the waves are finite and mutable some marked with a sense of "I" and some not! To be explicit, I hope you understand the metaphor. Many people I discuss this, esp. atheists, think I'm talking about oceans literally. No wonder, they cannot understand the Indian shrutis.



Again, I haven’t read enough or either – actually I did read the Quran and ignored all of the anti-religion and war passages by understanding that this was written in a time when tribes were fighting for survival, and when believers of other religions were violent. In context, it was a survival strategy. Those who “believe” those verses even today, sadly are the hardliners causing all the trouble across the globe. For example, I find that banning pork – at a time when a lot of people died from eating bad meat was more medicinal than others. Banning alcohol, also was an example of medical reasons, and definitely one the single most unpopular parts of the religion when it began. I am actually shocked it was able to catch on like wildfire with that bit in it. Then there is the bathing to keep clean often, which in ancient times was a terrible problem. In fact life expectancy is doubled at least for people with good hygiene. All religions promote this even today of course, but looking about this country I wonder what happened to following these hygiene clauses!




mediator said:


> From the lower/limited perspective of modern science it means, matter and energy (various manifestations) are risen from matter and energy, use matter and energy to exist and become matter and energy during their end. e.g  A person (made up of matter and energy), is born from matter and energy, uses matter and energy as food and becomes matter and energy after his death.
> 
> Can you say that "Allah is the eaten, the eater and the process of eating"? Is yes, then it would make sense as everything in this universe is matter and energy as per modern science and even matter is energy (Refer Quantum Theory).
> 
> If you understand any of the above distinctions, then proceed to this for further details : Theism and Vedas | The Chakra News



Entropy, what’s wrong with it? Matter converts into energy and back again all the time in everyday life. Understanding it is not hard at all, not even thousands of years ago. You eat, you get strength. You don’t you faint. You get hungry you get desperate, but also weaker, eventually you die. Small plants don’t grow in shaded areas, thus the sun is needed – it is needed to create matter, and importantly the fruit I eat. Planting seeds in my cave fails, but in a field with sunlight they prosper. Same with water, stupid plants…. The sun is strange – burns my face if I stand in it for too long, yet when it goes away it’s too cold and dark. In my rock the sun gives light, indirectly, and without the heat of direct sunlight. It is far away, but still burns silently, how strange. The moonlight never burns, no matter how much we bask in it. The fire I build burns also, but makes smoke and noise as well. The sun doesn’t. Thus it proves the sun is far away, and when I see through the trees I can see the sun’s “rays” which must be magical carriers of warmth and light. I had this drink once, Energee, it made me feel active and strong, let’s call it Energy instead (at least their stupid lawyers will not be able to sue me then). I tend to attempt humour sometimes to break the monotony (and fail?), but I suppose you get the drift. That doesn’t equate to E=MC^2. Sure the cavemen could have had a concept of “energy” as did the ancients obviously, but there are limits. They didn’t know about the atomic bomb or matter energy coefficients, they merely stated what they observed and thought of and then extrapolated one view into another. The world was flat, then it changed and became spherical when combined knowledge (from China some say) explained the motion of the stars and the day and night. The earth was the centre, then the sun was. This centre theory was good, it was easily explainable, just tie a rock to string and whirl it and a circle is born. But you are at the centre. Thus god must be at the centre of everything, because the earth is wondrous, and must be the creation of a god. I can create string, a hut, a club, and I can grow fruit, but to create life and the stars and the sun, wow, that must be a supreme being. Thus the stories start, and everyday experiences build and add to the story. 

I have read hundreds of links like that. I see really no difference in the fact that “faith” is required. Many will say that all religions believe that there is only ONE true god, which some people in Hinduism also believe – that all the gods are merely the powers of the all-powerful. Nomenclature, as far as I am concerned – just personal opinion of course. Many also believe that the Christ and Krishna story are the same on so many levels that it has to be the same story, just told by different people, and thus the different religions. The more people try and differentiate, the more similarities are found. Even science has similarities to religions – blind belief by the masses for one, and lack of understanding. However, the difference is that popular, everyday, modern science is based on drawn up laws that you and me can experiment and verify. We have no desire to, of course, but we can. Many of us have done chemistry in school, and seen reactions that would be magic to the average villager.



mediator said:


> If you understand that, do read Aurobindo's : The secret of Vedas. It is available freely with pdf format. Trust me, you'll laugh yourself at the average understanding of the Indian philosophies which we see in this thread alone which is not even intellectual in nature, let alone being intelligent! Like Zakir Naik speaks in inferior words : "In Islam everything is "God's" (with an apostrophe s, which gives rise to words like theism and atheism, who is actually Abrahamic and not Indian devi or Devta) where as in Hinduism everything is God" (In Hindi it means divya and divya is not the same as God. These devi-devta are the different powers of the infinite, like air/wind, water, intellect, mind, supermind which are called by terminologies like vayu, varuna, indra, Vishnu etc in the Vedas, Shakti and Shiva in the Tantras, purusha and prakriti in the Gita etc . From divya comes the sanskrit offsprings like deva and even Maya is a devi. There is a similar analogy to the Greek philosophy as well).



I will certainly read it when I have time. I am kind of busy as we are expecting a child to be delivered in the next week or so, and thus the on from mobile and random timings of replies – just so the forum guys don’t think I’ve gone crazy with my timings 

I will read the excerpts you have posted for sure though. And I will make my comments, ignorant as they may be.




> The word go means both cow and light and in a number of passages evidently meant light even while putting forward the image of the cow. This is clear enough when we have to do with the cows of the sun — the Homeric kine of Helios — and the cows of the Dawn. Psychologically, the physical Light might well be used as a symbol of knowledge and especially of the divine knowledge (Page 43) { i.e cow is the metaphor of light or wisdom/knowledge recieved}



Or it could also mean that both the cow and light help us survive, and thus are sacred. There are still many jumps of faith made in such cases. A greater understanding of something always raises the way in which you look at ancients. You may go to ancient civilisations and see step farming as them understanding gravity, fluid dynamics and more advanced concepts, but maybe they just planted everywhere and found that plantations on natural steps didn’t get washed away. We recreate what works. It happens in villages today as well, where farming techniques that are used in the US are also used here, by illiterates. However practising is not understanding, not always. Even a non-musician can hit a chord by mistake and discover it – without knowing what it is called or why it sounds nice. Even a broken clock is right twice a day…




> Indra is invoked as the maker of perfect forms to drink the wine of Soma; drinking he becomes full of ecstasy and a “giver of cows” .... A studys of the Vedic horse led me to the conclusion that go and asva represent the two companion ideas of Light and Energy, Consciousness and Force, which to the Vedic and Vedantic mind were the double or twin aspect of all the activities of existence. (Page 44) {i.e mind is illumined when by the sheer amount of knowledge, the eternal bliss, the truth and thus "giver of cows" by which we can act objectively and wisely }



Smarter people (those with more knowledge) are respected more, and thus also live easier lives. It is thus desirable to gain knowledge. Not rocket science certainly, but very astutely observational.



> Agni for the ordinary worshipper may have meant simply the god of the Vedic fire, or it may have meant the principle of Heat and Light in physical Nature, or to the most ignorant it may have meant simply a superhuman personage, one of the many “givers of wealth”, satisfiers of human desire. How suggest to those capable of a deeper conception the psychological functions of the God? The word itself fulfilled that service. For Agni meant the Strong, it meant the Bright, or even Force, Brilliance. So it could easily recall to the initiated, wherever it occurred, the idea of the illumined Energy which builds up the worlds and which exalts man to the Highest, the doer of the great work, the Purohit of the human sacrifice. (Page 56) { i.e Agni is the will power, the force which is one the first devtas who is invoked by Indra i.e mind/itelligence. Obviously this is true in any case. If you want to learn guitar, your mind will automatically increase focus. }



Or that fire is powerful. It can burn your home or an entire forest and kill everything in its path. It is to be respected, thus it is godlike, Agni, much like the sun. The sun is just another fire, but very far away that comes and goes. Fire allows me to see at night, and is thus also productive when controlled. When asleep, if my feet go too close to the flames it burns me and I wake up suddenly from unconscious to consciousness, thus is can also be related to waking up, or intelligence.



> This wine of Soma represents, as we have abundant proof in the Veda and especially in the ninth book, a collection of more than a hundred hymns addressed to the deity Soma, the intoxication of the Ananda, the divine delight of being, inflowing upon the mind from the supramental consciousness through the Ritam or Truth. If we accept these interpretations, we can easily translate the hymn into its psychological significance. (Page 74) { i.e The awakening as experienced by the mind, metaphorically written in the form of drinking of soma by Indra. }



It’s great to be alive? Everyday I live I learn something new, thus it must be my purpose, and since each day is brought forward by dawn, and I already associate light with intelligence, and elders seem to have more than the kids based on their experience, I must be drinking in intelligence on a daily basis. It’s so magical, it must be a god who invented the art of learning. 



> What can these rivers be whose wave is full of Soma wine, full of the ghrta, full of urj, the energy? What are these waters that flow to the goal of the gods’ movement, that establish for man the supreme good?....Obviously these are the waters of the Truth and the Bliss that flow from the supreme ocean. These rivers flow not upon earth, but in heaven; they are prevented by Vritra the Besieger, the Coverer from flowing down upon the earth-consciousness in which we mortals live till Indra, the god-mind, smites the Coverer with his flashing lightnings and cuts out a passage on the summits of that earth-consciousness down which they can flow. Such is the only rational, coherent and sensible explanation of the thought and language of the Vedic sages. (Page 113)



Collective wisdom? Some things still cannot be explained, and the god of wisdom obviously wants us to learn. Just as there are evil people and good people, people I like and those I hate, there must be good gods and evil ones too. Cannot call them gods, but anti-gods, or satan, or whatever word was used back then. The Coverer? Yet some things are eventually learnt. It may take weeks or months or years or centuries, but my grandfather in all his wisdom couldn’t figure out something I now have, Indra must have won the battle with Vritara today to grant me this knowledge.



> This matter of the lost herds is only part of a whole system of connected symbols and images. They are recovered by the sacrifice and the fiery god Agni is the flame, the power and the priest of the sacrifice; — by the Word, and Brihaspati is the father of the Word, the Maruts its singers or Brahmas, brahmano marutah, Saraswati its inspiration; — by the Wine, and Soma is the god of the Wine and the Ashwins its seekers, finders, givers, drinkers. The herds are the herds of Light and the Light comes by the Dawn and by the Sun of whom Pushan is a form. Finally, Indra is the head of all these gods, lord of the light, king of the luminous heaven called Swar, — he is, we say, the luminous or divine Mind; into him all the gods enter and take part in his unveiling of the hidden light. We see therefore that there is a perfect appropriateness in the attribution of one and the same victory to these different deities and in Madhuchchhandas’ image of the gods entering into Indra for the stroke against Vala. Nothing has been done at random or in obedience to a confused fluidity of ideas. The Veda is perfect and beautiful in its coherence and its unity. (Page 144)



I don’t know what the lost herds refer to here, so no comment. Perhaps when I get time to read it I will understand this one better. It just seems out of context on its own, and says nothing really to me at least in English. 



> Vedas : Mind is the chief controller of all the senses, of the breaths in the Human being (inhale, exhale, life breath etc) which we see as "devraj Indra". It is the mind which is always wavering with positive and negative thoughts and yields to the self for the guidance which we see as "Swargaloka always wavering and being attacked by Demons and presided over by devtas and Indra running to Vishnu for guidance".



I like this small passage a lot. Don’t let people get in the way of learning. Always learn, for it is what the gods want. Learning betters you and your life and the city / village so learning is good. Very admirable, and I wish this was followed more instead of whatever it is that we have now that causes so much hatred against questioning of anything. I suppose the “god(s)” had to be brought into this to make it believable and authoritative for the masses, but also stands on its own regardless of religion or gods.



> Shiva and Shakti : Where Shakti is the individual jiva (when perceived at human level) always trying to achieve the state of perfect knowledge i.e Shiva which we see in serials loosely as Shakti always trying to seek Shiva and how consciousness continues seeking even after death e.g Sati to Parvati where the desires are part of the nature of the body, but one has to control over those desires or detach from those desires. This Shiva is residing on the top of Mount Kailash which is metaphor of the human body itself and the super-mind, the top of Kailash which is beyond all the dualities of life, where space and time cease to exist, where past, present, future all become one, which are nothing more than the division created or perceived by the mind only.



Meditation? I don’t get this obviously since I haven’t experienced it, but it also seems to point to life after death, which always was a must for any faith to be accepted. Everyone’s afraid of death I suppose, so it makes sense that all faiths offer to keep your soul / mind / consciousness / etc alive for eternity. As an aside, funny how reincarnation theories don’t bring knowledge back with you, or else all these damn idiots running around today must really have been utter oafs in their past lives.

This trend continues in all the quotes. I will prefer to read the site you pointed me to as the best translation, and absorb that rather than what others interpret – as it is the texts are already suffering from too many interpretations and updates over thousands of years.



mediator said:


> Like I stated, the Indian thought is neither the Vedic rituals you see these days nor the presentation of Indian TV shows. It is neither some reduction into childish terminologies like theists, atheists, religion etc.



I agree, but it still requires a lot of “faith”.



mediator said:


> @Raaabo - The Sun rays take some 8 minutes to reach earth. It simply means that the rays which reach you had left the Sun some 8 minutes in the past. It further means that you are simply viewing the Sun 8 minutes in the past! When you talk to a friend, you are viewing him some nano-seconds (or even lesser) in the past. Entire infrastructure of your body and its individual components follow an order and the reality of Ritam (Universal dharma) . The individual organs understand their own dharma and limitations and work accordingly, so do the celestial bodies, an order within the chaos, where the entire template of your body changes every nanoseconds chemically (billions of atoms inhaled, exhaled, perspired, excretion, drinking, urinating etc), physically (very slow for senses to register), mentally (emotion,wisdom,thoughts, intelligence, analysis etc)! Thus with all these subtle reasonings you are always percieving the external world in the past!
> 
> If you think Indian science is "a belief system" with a reasoning that it is archaic and irrelevant, then so has the modern science become a subject of past now the moment you open a science book and read it. Such a "belief" that Indian science is a belief system because it is archaic is only self-destructive!



I have nothing against ancient sciences. I feel it is irrelevant now only because we have all been experiencing the same age old things they have. We have accepted terminology for things now, equations that explain what they observed, and much smarter people. In many ways the studies of ancient sciences might bring new ways of relooking at sciences of today. So be it. I don’t say kill them off, I say they are irrelevant to the majority of humanity. They are in a language no one understands, they are steeped in the religious voices of the age, and they require a lot of blind faith as well. There are very little facts and all theories, which is good as a starting point, but now we have started to prove theories, and this goes beyond faith. No matter which religion you have belonged to, everyone has doubted their blind faith in everything when they study science. This is a good thing, because a scientific mind searches for answers, accepts nothing at face value, and wants to prove how and why, rather than just accept someone else’s supposition of it. This is why we all know Newton’s laws of motion and gravity, and have heard of E=MC^2 but only a few people care about string theory. Theories are good, but they’re now irrelevant to most until proven. I never said “belief” isn’t a part of everything, it is. I just choose to believe what I can see and verify, and look at explanations that involve mathematics and logic, instead of jumping to faith and “trust me” statements. I think many more people are turning that way. If it leads to enlightenment of people, and gaining more knowledge, and understanding the world better, isn’t that a good thing according to vedas themselves?

If science calls something dark energy, I am sure someone will go back to the vedas and find a verse or two to show how it fits in perfectly with theory, however, this just doesn’t cut it for me, because as I said earlier, really enlightened and smart people speak clearly, and take time to explain, and cover all questions. With accumulated knowledge that is tinged with religious overtones that were prevalent in the day, the meanings are being hidden, morphed, misread and interpreted as per one’s desire. This is great for abstract art, but for science, a little less desirable.

Also as for the past and time, anything that’s measurable is acceptable. I will have written this in the past when you read it, yet I am sure you will not agree with it. That logic goes nowhere, because I thought I was the one you were trying to show up as an unbeliever as time passes. Had I written this 1000 years ago would it make it more believable to you? Thus the ancient texts do not turn me off because they are ancient alone, but because they are written for a society that is long dead and gone, and being interpreted by one who knows a lot more now, and is also more creative, and is reading too much importance into them. If knowledge is the ultimate goal, who cares where it comes from. Do I have to accept Indra and Brahma before I can acquire knowledge? If so I have a problem with that. Do I have to accept what they say at face value without questioning? Do I have to read things written vaguely (on purpose or lack of language capability) which some people interpret one way and others another, and then fight till eventually one wins and drowns the other out? That’s religion in a nutshell isn’t it? The world has moved to a fact based one. You shirk you get fired, you don’t earn you starve, you don’t pay your internet bill, you can’t bore forum members with a million word debate, you can’t solve the problem of hypersleep, you can’t go to alpha centauri, you don’t invent a better propulsion system than rockets, you won’t go to mars. This is the world today, and it’s increasingly connected and increasingly fact based. Answers need to be to the point, and not vague. Thus relevance.

I am sure many people will continue their interest in them, and many without an ounce of faith (like me) trying to look at them objectively and in context of when they were written, to get a true understanding of what they meant. As I stated earlier, vagueness is often associated with deep meanings, whereas it’s the reader who is inserting the meanings, not the writer. This is good for stories, but not good for building upon as a science. Also, the more intellectual we tend to think of ourselves as, the more into abstract we seem to go, which is fine, so long as we are able to accept that the abstract, by very definition, is chaos, and thus the thread you’re on may not be the right one. In fact, in all probability, it IS the wrong thread, since the more intellectual you are the more in the abstract you think. For creativity in things like music, this is a good thing. Artists, writers, musicians all yearn to have this quality – however I resent when people take this to be “superior” in every sense. Joe Satriani is my Buddha of guitar, but I am sure he could learn a lot of non-guitaring stuff from me as well.

To assume that any belief explains everything is arrogance, and arrogance leads to the end of learning. That’s why I like the way modern science is set up. It says here is what we’ve found, and here is exactly what we did to find it. If you can prove us wrong we will reward you. We have a billion unanswered questions and a million answered, and all of those answered could be wrong too. Until someone comes along and proves those wrong, we accept it, but we welcome any attempts and will name the new law/equation/theory/finding after you (if proven to a great extent and not contradicted with proof from others with other aspects of looking at the same thing).

That’s something I can follow.




mediator said:


> Coming back, Why do I still see an order in this extremely chaotic template of yours? Your senses are the ones which analze the external. The mind is the one which analyzes the message passed on by the senses. On whose direction is the mind working? You buy a car, but the thought originated in the past for it (2 days back or 20 years back) before it materializes in the physical world. What all factors were responsible for such a thought - 'buying a car'? From no where a thought might come about your loved ones and you immediately ring them up. It could be random and it could be a result of various forces of nature external as well as internal acting upon you to accumulate into a thought and then your body, a vessel acts to carry that thought forward? Is it really you who are "doing", or your whole life happens to be dance around different thoughts either random, borrowed or accumulated?



No doubt there are many things not explained even today. Déjà vu, impending peril, blind luck, and a million more things. So be it. I have no doubt that the vedas offer an explanation of everything. Actually, so does every religion. It’s a grand plan, and if you cannot comprehend god, how can you comprehend his reasons. Your kid died? God loved him/her. You failed, got beaten up, had misfortune? It’s God testing your faith. You had something good happen? God rewarded you. Replace God with whatever you want. Indra, Allah, Christ, Buddha, Knowledge, chi flow, dark energy, law of averages… You don’t understand? That’s because God doesn’t want you to, coz you’re not the chosen one, or indra is being blocked by an evil force, or you yourself are to blame because you are a blasphemer by disregarding the teachings of <insert holy text here>.

Everything just fits easily when you take even a small leap of faith. However, when you start using only logic and demanding understanding that can be passed on in simple words, most of these leaps of faith are left languishing. It’s always the fault of the seeker, and never the fault of the texts themselves, or the teacher of the texts. 



mediator said:


> Now just like flame does not have a definite shape and the perception of its form keeps on changing (flame reducing, increasing, distorting, flickering etc), similarly how can we say that the shape of Sun is "circular"? With its huge flames coming and going, can we even say that the sun has a definite shape? Moreover, does the Sun exist only in the perception of its flames? Its heat can be felt all over to the Earth and beyond. So my question - Is the Sun limited to its flames only or to its heat beyond as well? Once you understand that and move beyond names, forms, shapes etc, you'd understand that the "essence" of the Sun encompasses the entire Solar System.
> 
> Similar is the nature of the supreme consciousness which resides within but distorted by its own lower natures and polluted at the level of material consciousness/lowest where the world becomes "asat" (it does not mean false, but illusory in the sense of being impermanent or dynamic) where the sat, the static, the permanent, the real can be achieved and known with the faculties of Yoga! Hence Sagun to Nirgun, the union of Shakti with Shiva. You may read chapter 7 of Bhagvad-Gita on this.



I can see what you’re saying, but I prefer to look at it as the radiation of energy in all directions. The light and heat get weaker the further you go, and the shape of the sun is a spheroid because it is observed so from various angles, and the physics of gravity thus far prove it to be thus. By your logic any shape can be proven to not be that shape. A line is a collection of dots and never perfectly straight… this is what I would call overthinking. What purpose does it serve except to make it akin to a candle, and then take a leap of faith into believing that radiation is an “essence”. Why not just call it radiation, and leave essence as something I put in my milk to give it a vanilla flavour? Why is it that modern science tries to distinguish everything by giving it a new word. What people called birds biology broke into hundreds of thousands of species. Clarity is formed when broken down, perhaps this is why all things faith based want to converge everything into one. The murkier the better, because then it leaves more things open to interpretation. Why not break them down to an atom, and study that atom. You use the example of the river flowing into the ocean, and losing it’s identity, why is that important. It’s taken on faith that this is important, and it then requires another jump of faith to believe that this is the true path to enlightenment. However abstracts haven’t built this world and new civilisation of ours. It’s specifics, and the separating of disciplines. If everyone had to learn everything, and try and live only by the old beliefs, we would have no specialised heart surgeons, and every heart attack would be fatal.




mediator said:


> Meditative experiences are personal indeed and hence I gave the analogy of gym and body types (skin, hari texture ,metabolism, habits etc), but the steps remain the same, a journey from "I" to surrender of "I" and merging with the absolute. It is totally different from the experience of a drug addict. Meditation increases mind control, it is based on detachment from material desires in its holistic meaning as attachment shall remain a burden in the initial process of emptying the mind.  Whereas, addiction to drugs as based on attachment to material desires/drugs which destroys mind control and brain cells where the lowest perception is further reducd to smithereens giving even a lower false perception/"feeling" .
> 
> You took it literally. What I really requested is that you need to discuss only if you have any genuine interest. There are mods in the forum who have quoted some distorted verses of Gita and then claiming on the top of that distortion, that Gita present offending verses. The basic steps or a genuine research would simply seek - Who said the verse and what is the meaning of the verse, Gathering the complete verse as the first step and then verify it from 2-3 different sources as well, if one is ignorant of Sanskrit. You won't really understand anything if you do not have a genuine interest. Just like all the knowledge of technology (or guitar or gymming) will come to if you have a genuine interest, similar the higher science will come to you as well if you have genuine interest.



Again it sounds to me more like losing consciousness (as in passing out and letting your mind run wild). Many marijuana smokers I know report the very same thing. When I went to Nepal last year, and met and spoke to some of the hundreds of Sadhus there, they also reported that it made it easier to meditate. It cleared the mind. I asked them also what meditation was to them, and they all said very personal things. “For me…” actually “Mere liye…” since they all spoke Hindi to me… and that for me starts with an “I”. The very fact that it’s personal, makes it not about anything of global importance, but like any other self-serving experience. I have a detachment from all things material when I sleep, when I focus on something, when I day dream, or even sometimes when I sit about looking into the distance. There are always thoughts there though, and it is my mind at work, so I still do not get this whole idea of wisdom flowing into you. Sure your synaptics firing randomly making a pattern that gives you an aha moment and snaps you out of a dreamy state, definitely, that’s how I get article ideas and headlines, or cover stories.



mediator said:


> The whole universe will conspire to make it happen, if you really genuinely want it. Ofcourse you have to act upon it naturally!



So if I don’t believe it to be a higher science, and I am not willing to make leaps of faith I can never experience it? Is it even remotely possible that people will accept the explanation that I offer, which is that perhaps it is just a mind searching for its own superiority, to feel important, to feel a sense of purpose that gives people these feelings – perhaps even delusions. Something like everything seeming to be in slow motion just before you’re about to have an accident. It’s a mind trick, where your brain goes into overdrive, and your focus is heightened in a hurry, which makes you feel like it was slow motion, because you happened to notice a hell of a lot more than you usually do. Thus the noticing of events is increased, but the absorption of events is still normal, and thus it’s like slow motion. Very much like shooting in 60 fps and then watching back in 30.



mediator said:


> There is no point in discussing Quran, if you "personally" do not want to discuss it and then use your admin rights to implement the same. Quran is a doctrine. Had it been just another person who had destroyed an unused temple or by Govt procedures, I wouldn't mind. But like I said, research yourself on the history of Iran, Afganistan, Bangladesh, pakistan etc were all places of creativity and now most of their creativity is destroyed! The Doctrine is simple i.e to spread Islam. This includes killing of infidels, people tagged as Jews and Christian, violating women prisoners with an attchment to something called judgement day. You really need to read Quran, I have given you authentic sources with tanslations of three prominent translators and not just another link to some anti-Islamic site. And hence for this reason I had called you ignorant of ground reality. I apologize if it sounds offending. The same pattern exists with the growing number of muslims in France, Britain, US etc. Again, I'm not against people tagged as muslims here but a doctrine that is driving them to demand sharia, behead soldiers (British Royal Guard) for what happened in Afghanistan, Syria, death to US even though US provides large number of jobs to them.



I never claim to side with either Quran or Muslims. I have in fact had a lot of discussions with my muslim friends about the same topics, and even with a few mullahs who bothered to sit down and talk to me when I was younger to answer the same questions I ask here. Although in the end, it ends up being an agreement to disagree, I have only ever received a death threat from one Muslim. I have also received the same from many Christians and two Hindus, so I won’t read too much into that. All I have ever said is there is an inclusive way of discussing things. I called you communal earlier and it upset you, which was the exclusive way. You called me ignorant and other things, those are not inclusive. We are debating because neither did you say science was wrong, and neither did I say the vedas were wrong, we are only debating whether the vedas are a true science and whether they can actually be called a higher science at all. If I would have said all Hindus are evil and the vedas are an evil text that should be burned as it is corrupting the world… well you wouldn’t want to talk to me either. Heck I am sure I would have received at least a death threat or two. My pointing out to you about revealing your identity was to remind you again that perhaps if you treated it as a debate you were really having in a room full of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs, you would be more careful with “how” you said something, nothing more.




mediator said:


> I'm not interested in who ridicules the video of Zakir Naik (Ahmaddiya that you pointed out) but simply in discussing Quran, Allah and Mohammed.
> 
> This is something I love about him. He is arrogant for the anti-nationals, but loving for his own people. It is a characteristic a leader needs to have. One who seeks truth is often termed as cold and arrogant. It doesn't mean he has perfectly sought the truth before you raise fingers. I would prefer an arrogant leader who administers well anyday over a robot who seldom speaks, or doesn't know what to speak, take orders from others all the time and when speaks, speaks without any motivation where you have to raise the volume of the TV or concentrate all your energy to your ears to listen him well.



Why not? What’s wrong with adding a fresh perspective to the idea that islam teaches so and so, if some people are saying it doesn’t. It’s unfair to try and confront you purely about idol worship and silly superstitions and say that this is how Hinduism manifests in the majority, thus this is the only Hindusim that matters.

I also wanted a proper clarification. Do you or do you not think that those praying to idols and doing superstitious rituals, and pandits making money of said things are just as bad as what any other religion does in this regard, and is ruining the Hinduism that you believe to be the right path. I only ask because your thoughts about every other religion are very clear to everyone, except the manifestation of so-called Hinduism.

Arrogance is the opposite of the useless figurehead we have now, but to me it seems like extremism either way. Arrogance prevents people from learning, it instills the highest sense of “I” and thus goes against everything you seem to stand for in your quest to enlightenment. For me, the seekers of truth are never arrogant unless the very act of appearing to seek the truth is being done for fame. See Arnab, he doesn’t seek the truth, he merely wants to outshout everyone and make a name for himself. See Lalit Modi, and what arrogance got him. A humble but firm person is what I’d rather have, but I don’t see any right now.




mediator said:


> I would recommend you => Srimad Bhagavad-Gita
> 
> Read it in your own frame of understanding first without seeing the commentaries. If you can understand high level English, then I would recommend you Aurobindo's translations!



Thanks. I was also reading from that site before this. Will check out Aurobindo when I get some time, but I usually hate reading other’s interpretations of what I can read myself.



Anorion said:


> Im reading gita! 2/3rd of gita. My mind is too pure now, so plan to watch some porn later.
> Most of it is Krishna saying he is the one dude, how those who pray to other gods are unintelligent people indirectly praying to him, an how those who believe in other gods will suffer for multiple lifetimes. At least the punishment for disbelief in certain other faiths does not extend to multiple lives!



The more things change, the more they stay the same. I expected that 

I know it’s your religion, and thus you feel a sense of entitlement towards being able to mock it, but you could have found a more tasteful way of making the same point and also being funny.




rishitells said:


> - 'Prohibition of worship of any other God except Allah', or doing 'Idol Worship Prohibition'.
> - Six Articles of Faith, one of them being the Judgement Day
> - Concept of believer and non-believer.


Since god is in everything and everywhere according to the faith you seem to have (correct me if I am wrong), then you could theoretically go into a Mosque or a Church , and it wouldn’t matter whether you were facing mecca or a Christ statue, since they are also made from the same atoms that you are made from, would you be able to say a prayer in your mind, and would this amount to a holy experience?

If yes, then I assume you hold this to be the real faith of India, and thus automatically think it stupid for people of India to demand anything being broken down or demolished for silly religious reasons.

When one dies, or passes on in your faith, what happens to them? Are they not resurrected again, just because they followed the wrong religion? If they are, then why bother, if they aren’t, and come back as frogs, rot in hell, wander about the cosmos as lost souls, etc., what do you care what they believe? So long as they don’t harm anyone and live a decent, peaceful life and help those who need it, does this really matter?

Aren’t they non-believers to you? They certainly don’t believe in what you believe in… Control is attempted by every group eventually, in some form or the other, some are more subtle and pander to your egos to make you believe, some just outright demand it… Such is the way religion works everywhere. There are also open minded people you can talk to and closed-minded extremists who will threaten murder in every religion, and it speaks more about that individual than it does about the religion in my opinion.


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## ico (Sep 9, 2013)

mediator said:


> The Indian history speaks of yuga cycles where currently we in Kaliyug of which 5000 yrs have already been spent.





mediator said:


> What was the structure of continents at the time of Mahabharat alone? Or is it our assumption that it was the same as today?


and Mahabharata happened around the time of transition from Dvapar Yuga to Kaliyuga.

So you mean to imply that continents were different 5000 years ago.

hmm, hmmm and hmmmm.


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## rhitwick (Sep 9, 2013)

At last finished Raaabo's post. It took me 3 hours, IDK how long did it take him to write...


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## Hrishi (Sep 9, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> At last finished Raaabo's post. It took me 3 hours, IDK how long did it take him to write...



I think , He writes that information on an IPad !!!! My phone starts lagging even when I read it through tapatalk.


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## rhitwick (Sep 9, 2013)

Hey @mediator, I went through your most coveted posts #87 and #89. I saw no 'question' that you were so desperate to make me answer.
Could you please repeat them?

@MODs/Admins

Can we have two more options in the pole?
new option 1>I want congress but not Rahul Gandhi
new option 2>I want "AAP" (aam admi party) to win nationally and form coalition free govt.


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## ico (Sep 9, 2013)

^^ AAP doesn't stand a chance. Another set of anti-national idiots.

CONgress and that idiot are synonymous.


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## CommanderShawnzer (Sep 9, 2013)

How does Raaabo write such long posts?


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## Raaabo (Sep 9, 2013)

My apologies. I didn't mean to bore people! I'll stop the long posts and go back to iPad and BB Z10 sized posts


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## rhitwick (Sep 9, 2013)

b/w, if anyone still cares to answers these questions I would be fortunate.



> Who wrote that Veda? who wrote that Upanishada? the Geeta? Can pinpoint the area in map of the then map of land?
> After that it would be necessary to show how that knowledge traveled in the land having present day boundary?
> Then it would be required to show how many tribes or states were actually practicing the virtues or following the texts mentioned in veda and agreed to it?
> 
> ...



With all the knowledge flowing here on religion and 'Dharma'/Science of consciousness its really necessary for me to set up a timeline to understand the knowledge properly.
Its very likely we ended up explaining things out-of-context. What if our understanding of these texts today are wrong and actually meant something else? 
Timeline would help us to 
>locate where it was generated, 
>by whom? 
>What was the social structure at that time
>Could it have effected the texts described in the books?
>What religion was practiced at that time?
>If all the books (if not books but Shruti) were formed or conceptualized at same time?
>If not then separate timeline for each book.

b/w from Mediator's post #232


			
				Supreme Court said:
			
		

> The court came to the conclusion that the words "Hinduism" or "Hindutva" are not necessarily to be understood and construed narrowly, confined only to the strict Hindu religious practices unrelated to the culture and ethos of the People of India depicting the way of life of the Indian people. Unless the context of a speech indicates a contrary meaning or use, in the abstract, these terms are indicative more of a way of life of the Indian people. Unless the context of a speech indicates a contrary meaning or use, in the abstract, *these terms are indicative more of a way of life of the Indian people and are not confined merely to describe persons practicing the Hindu religion as a faith" (Emphasis supplied). This clearly means that, by itself, the word "Hinduism" or "Hindutva" indicates the culture of the people of India as a whole, irrespective of whether they are Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews etc.* The Supreme Court Bench has further observed that "the mere fact that these words (Hindutva or Hinduism) are used in the speech would not bring in within the prohibition of sub-section (3) or (3A) of Section 123. It may well be that these words are used in the speech to promote secularism and to emphasize the way of life of the Indian people and the Indian culture or ethos, or to criticize the policy of any political party as discriminatory or intolerant. Whether a particular speech in which a reference is made to Hindutva and or Hinduism falls within the prohibition under sub-section (3) or (3A) of Section 123 is therefore a question of fact in each case" (Emphasis supplied).


This means or as I understood, Hinduism means 'Indianness' as the term coined by @mediator. And according to Supreme Court of India this Indianness is includes the way every inhabitant of India lives his/her life. This Indianness not only includes opinion of the persons who practice "Veda", "Upanishada" or "Gita" rather also includes "Quaran", "Hadith", "Bible","Guru Granth Sahib", "Tripitaka", Jain Agamas, the Jewish Bible or Tanakh, 'The Zend Avesta' for the Parsi community and others.

So, its really not possible to compare any religion in particular against "Hinduism". If we go by set theory, How can we compare a subset with a superset?



Raaabo said:


> My apologies. I didn't mean to bore people! I'll stop the long posts and go back to iPad and BB Z10 sized posts



No no, please continue. People who are interested are actually reading your posts.



			
				BJP website said:
			
		

> *Who is a Hindu?
> *
> The irony is this ignorance exists while the effete Hindu sits atop a veritable mine of gold: How else is he to galvanise his destiny and improve the lot of his fellow beings if his religion is not practiced? All our teachers have emphasised this, all of us have deified them for this, and yet, all of use are, after our perfunctory salutations to them, guilty of banishing them to the corners. The tragedy of Hinduism is that after its masters have given the call for its renewal, the Hindus have slipped into civilisational entropy.


This kind of clashes @mediator's definition or posts till now.
*www.bjp.org/index.php?option=com_c...defining-movement-in-time&catid=92&Itemid=501
Specially this part(the whole page indeed) which kinda clashes with Supreme Court verdict that was quoted by @mediator earlier


			
				BJP Website said:
			
		

> Never before has Bharat, the ancient word for the motherland of Hindus - India, been confronted with such an impulse for change. This movement, Hindutva, is changing the very foundations of Bharat and Hindu society the world over.
> 
> Hindu society has an unquestionable and proud history of tolerance for *other faiths* and respect for diversity of spiritual experiences.


*www.bjp.org/index.php?option=com_c...reat-nationalist-ideology&catid=92&Itemid=501
If Hinduism or Hindutva is nothing but anyone who lives in India irrespective of which faith he believes then how do they write "other faiths" here?


*
b/w The website of BJP does not mention anywhere in its "Privacy policy" if any third party is allowed to quote any part of its contents without prior approval. I hope I've not done any federal crime by doing so here. If the MODs and Admins think my post could bring legal problem to them please delete respective link and posts.*

And, *SUN* for the ignorants
*nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/sunfact.html


> Sun Fact Sheet
> [Global view of the Sun]
> Sun/Earth Comparison
> Bulk parameters
> ...


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## Hrishi (Sep 9, 2013)

Raaabo said:


> My apologies. I didn't mean to bore people! I'll stop the long posts and go back to iPad and BB Z10 sized posts



It may seem Boeing unless one actually reads it ( I do ) . You write well and definitely with an open mind. I appreciate everyone who shares their views.
Please continue.. I didn't meant it that way.


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## Anorion (Sep 9, 2013)

@rhitwick text was new technology for hinduism
These collection of verses existed in oral traditions before they were written down
Some bronze age oral traditions survive to this day 
Some traditions predate human speech, let alone texts


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## rhitwick (Sep 9, 2013)

Anorion said:


> @rhitwick text was new technology for hinduism
> These collection of verses existed in oral traditions before they were written down
> Some bronze age oral traditions survive to this day
> Some traditions predate human speech, let alone texts


I've no problem with them not being available written. I just want to know and set a timeline when did hey cam into existence first.


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## Raaabo (Sep 9, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> I've no problem with them not being available written. I just want to know and set a timeline when did hey cam into existence first.



As do millions, but alas the past is harder to explore than the future even.


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## Hrishi (Sep 9, 2013)

To be fair involving political parties like BJP when talking about religion doesn't seems logical . Does it ?? We all know what these political parties have to do with religion.


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## theterminator (Sep 9, 2013)

A lot of people  died in Muzzafarnagar, Uttar Pradesh. Rumour is that media is not reporting killing of Hindus


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## theserpent (Sep 9, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> Hey @mediator, I went through your most coveted posts #87 and #89. I saw no 'question' that you were so desperate to make me answer.
> Could you please repeat them?
> 
> @MODs/Admins
> ...



Congress without Sonia Gandhi would be 5% better


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## Raaabo (Sep 9, 2013)

theterminator said:


> A lot of people  died in Muzzafarnagar, Uttar Pradesh. Rumour is that media is not reporting killing of Hindus



I am sure people of all faiths have died. Let's stick to condemning such idiocy, or else everyone else will start counting even dead bodies by their religion. Should I start asking how many poor atheists were killed? This is the problem with this country.

As someone who has lived through riots myself and actually seen people kill one another, I can tell you that there is often more than pure and simple religion involved. I know of people who killed / tried to kill competitors in business when riots started. Even suitors for the same girl have attempted similar things. Political goons start these things for power and to raise tempers, and then other goons take over killing off their enemies under the guise of religion. how long are even educated people like us going to keep falling into this trap?


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## theterminator (Sep 9, 2013)

Politicians added fuel to the fire here as always.


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## rhitwick (Sep 9, 2013)

I just realized the thread title is *"Debates about the Economy, Politics, Religion, and everything under the sun"*

Which has a poll *"Who will win 2014 elections"*


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## Hrishi (Sep 9, 2013)

theterminator said:


> A lot of people  died in Muzzafarnagar, Uttar Pradesh. Rumour is that media is not reporting killing of Hindus



Once a person is dead he is no longer Hindu or Muslim.


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## CommanderShawnzer (Sep 9, 2013)

Rishi. said:


> Once a person is dead he is no longer Hindu or Muslim.



He is Worm Chow.Or Ash---->Silt in some Lake/River
God or no God.


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## mediator (Sep 9, 2013)

Raaabo said:
			
		

> The sun rises in the East? Yes, a fact in the old world. However, today we know that the sun actually doesn't "rise" it's the
> 
> 
> spot on earth you're standing at that turns to face the sun, and sunrise is different for everyone. In the circles it rises
> ...


Absolutely correct on that. I can take you even deeper on that logic for there is no such thing as direction in this directionless world anyways. Like I reasoned for names etc as a frame of reference, direction is also a frame of reference in a relative term. For that matter can you even prove your existence? For all I can see, from a greater level of reasoning, is a tornado of molecules, a dance of energy behind your "perceived" shape of the body which is changing every nano-second. Does your existence go beyond to the atoms that left your body through excreta, perspiration, exhale etc or the do the atoms that come to your body, through inhale, drinking, energy from sun, light from tubelight etc, for a "moment" even belong to you in the first place?


What exactly are we trying to prove then? What is yours, Can you identify the atoms that are yours? Is your mind even registered to work at micro and the macro, subtler than the subtlest and larger than the largest of what is known?


Knowing here, exists at a different levels of consciousness. I just gave the example at the lowest level of consciousness i.e material play!






			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> As you stated, "higher" implies better, and the way you speak of it implies better. Maybe not best, but it sure sounds like
> 
> 
> you feel that *people who do not follow the vedas,* or think of the mind and consciousness differently are illiterate or
> ...


You are getting confused I guess in this overdose of reasoning. I never would want people to "follow/believe" Vedas in the first place, but question it!


Questioning takes place the best when you have a genuine interest in the subject or the science and when you have read it, the complete teaching or the message devotedly without dissecting it in between. e.g Pythogoras theoram. Many would mug the theoram. But geuine seekers of mathematics would go to the root, as to how and why it happened. The same goes for the Vedas and hence the description of the term "astik" which I  detailed to you in my earlier reply. In this context, one who analyzes the pythagoras theoram, deduces it correctly and sees no flaw in it transcends to a position where he can affirm with confidence about the correctness of the theoram. In that sense, he has become an astik, for he read, understood, questioned and authorized!


Higher doesn't mean the best. Veda propound the science of consciousness from lowest (arthashastras,Ayurveda,Vaisheshika) to highest (shruties). Veda here is an umbrella term which is further branched and connected to itihaas, brahmanas and the science of shruties, the categorizations from different levels of descriptions Nyaya, Yoga, dvaita, advaita, Vaisheshika etc. Its a science of the holistic understanding holding cause and effect, time and space and that which is beyond cause and effect, time and space.








			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> I prefer to classify myself as an atheist, and many atheists I meet are similar. I think you have a narrow view of atheism,
> 
> 
> and *those who only accept what can be proven or measured or seen*.
> ...


I guess you still haven't understood the basic meaning of consciousness or the order that I have explained again and again or the Ritam at large. It is not limited to "life" or happening on the earth. For that matter, even if I narrow myself to your understanding, how can you call that which contains life as lifeless? For that matter the essence of Sun like I explained before, encompasses the entire solar system. Earth is a part of the solar system which is a part of milky way galaxy and hence the universe. How can you call Universe as lifeless which contains you and me? Like I questioned before, are you really apart from the Universe or you are simply a part of it?


What is "that" which is holding the entire template of your body together which is just a chaotic tornado of atoms at a nano-seconds measure? Who exactly are you? The atoms that left you or the atoms that come to you? Do you think that is measurable, verifiable and proven? 


Regarding infinite,


1. Anything divided by infinite is not exactly an analysis of infinity, which you think can be "analyzed".
2. research again, infinite or any number divided by 0 is not exactly infinite i.e a/0 is not equal to infinity, which if taken into consideration can lead to paradoxes!


Are you sure you have your basic mathematics concepts in place? The first is verifiable. You may use a calculator, whereas the second would give an error. Do you know if second situation is encountered in programming, an exception is usually thrown or it may cause the program to terminate? Moreover, who told you that the Universe is finite? Have you got it "measured, verified or proven". Even the modern science works under what is called as "observable universe"!


If you really think, this Universe is finite, then what is beyond this Universe? What is the shape of this finite. Is this finite rotating and revolving around something higher (lets call it X1)? What is the shape of that X1? Is that finite also rotating and revolving around something higher (lets call it X2)? Do you really think this recursive question/series is finite alone? If you have no answer to it and are waiting for "modern science" to give an answer, then I guess you are undermining your own consciousness and limiting because of an attachment to a thought that "modern science" one day will give you an answer  which is again a blind-belief in modern science!




Regarding time, it is relative indeed where time becomes a function of movement. The faster the movement, the lesser the time and so on. But like I have discussed before, who exactly analyzes the frameworks of time? Who causes a distinction between night and day, good and bad, small and large? Do you think the frameworks of time are the same for one who cannot see, hear, speak or touch i.e all five senses not working?


Close your eyes and walk, can you really see where you are walking? When that which is causing a reference has been removed, how can you even categorize then? Like I asked you, if time is a reality, then why do we lose a sense of time and space when we dream? Time exists only at lower frame of consciousness and ceases to exist as we go higher in the place of consciousness.




A simple example :


Raaabo is sitting at the top of eucalyptus tree and Mediator down. Earth being round, your best friend comes from far where you can see but I cannot. For you, your friend is more like present-tense, but for me he is future-tense as I cannot see him. When he comes near me, where I can see him, he becomes present. For you he still remains present. When he leaves and goes at a distance where I cannot see him, he becomes past. But for you he is still more like present tense. You could see the flow, but I could not!


This eucalyptus tree here is a reflection of the scale of consciousness here, where that which is beyond the realms of time and space, cause and effect can see the cause and effect, for whom past, present and future all become one! Hence Mahakaal is called as trikaaldarshi whereas human level of consciousness can only dwell in or percieve a limited framework of cause and effect and hence there exists a science to raise one's consciousness to the Shiva/Mahakaal/Mahadev/trikaaldarshi/supreme consciousness!


Perhaps you have been never introduced to this science, the science of inner which you may call it, as since your childhood you have been conditioned to the analysis of the external? So yes, there is a higher consciousness needed to understand time. I guess it is your "belief" that such a plane is not needed? Obviously, Brahma has a limited time frame and again, exists at a lower level of consciousness only. It is not the same as Brahman! Brahma is the body of the universe which contains the manifest and the unmanifest, but there is that which lies beyond and hence a metaphor of "Vishnu dreaming of infinite Brahmas" where Vishnu dreaming on the AnantNag refers to that which lies dormant and holding this entire body of brahma together which is metaphorically called as "sleeping" where Anant-Nag by its very meaning (Anant = Endless/Infinite) refers to eternal, infinite existence. This somehow resembles the "parallel" universe theory or perhaps the theory has been taken from this Indian metaphor? But according to an atheist like you, it is already void, for you have already rejected its basis which cannot be "proven or measured or seen". For that matter, do you think the evolution theory or the Big Bang that you "believe" in is "proven or measured or seen"? They have been debunked already where I can pour my own questions to further the discussion. Should I call it your blind belief then in these debunked theories? 


Further, if its a blind-belief or a belief alone, how different are you, an atheist from the so called theist?






			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> What we “thought” is perhaps the wrong way to put it. What we “knew for sure” until the discovery of this city is better.
> 
> 
> There are squabbles over dating of course but certainly 9,500 years, and yes I’ve seen a history channel documentary that
> ...


The video I showed and the discovery is based on dating techniques. "A claim or what has been claimed" is a totally different thing! I really don't know how you define civilization. But for me civilization means a society which can learn to co-exist with the nature and the animals, promotes science of consciousness and mind and body control to be taught at a very young age to children, perfection in various spheres of life, ability to retain knowledge. For that matter, I don't see the "modern world" to be much civilized which is busy in external analysis, attachment and making concrete jungles out of fertile lands in the name of "progress and development", where life has been reduced to a little booze, drug-addiction, engrossed in one's own life and job without any concern for the Family, Joint Family, Nation and world at large! 


So what even if there are cave paintings? How can you really say that they were not civilized or again, the conception of civilization that you are hinting at has been borrowed and the limited framework of your own mind being used to judge the people of the past? Is eating with hands less civilized than eating with forks and spoon? 


Research yourself on Shaolin temples, where living is simple with an aim to perfect the control over the body. There they use a concept of Qi/Chi which is not really registered in the frameworks of modern science. Again "knowing" comes into the picture and not some "belief"!






			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> Sorry, but again this is where we diverge. You may call it “knowing” for as long as you want, but there is no physical proof
> 
> 
> of this. It is “belief”. Sure, we believe that city to be 12000 years old, but carbon dating of the oldest artifacts found
> ...


This is again an example where you are judging everything through a narrow and limited frameworks of "physical" alone. Like I said, if you dwell in the lowest consciousness i.e physical


1. Can you prove your own existence then?
2. Can you explain why you lose a touch of time and space often during your dreams?
3. Can you tell who exactly are you?
4. Can you prove that you are isolated from earth and Sun alone?


I have stated the characteristics of Satyuga and not the "physical proof" of it. But you should start from here I guess : Agamas and Science and Art of Temple Construction






			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> *However, believing that there were “perfect beings” in a time when all fossils and physical proof shows only cave men, or
> 
> 
> dinosaurs,* depending on whether you go with the yuga definition of “years” or “divine years”. Something tells me that
> ...


Do you think cavemen cannot be perfect? Or do you think men in this age who cannot remember what happened 2 days back, need a timer to wake up, calculator to do simple maths, who cannot stand in Sun for 1 hour etc are perfect? BTW, there are instances of human beings co-existing with the dinosaurs from the smritis!




You can google for the debunks from the modern day scientists yourself, but since there is an overwhelming conditioning of yours to Evolution, let me ask. What really happened to the dinosaurs or the explanation is again a plausible theory? Since the survival of the fittest, adaptation and mutation enables the species to grow to a more suitable environment, is it necessary that the eating habits would change too? How were the senses developed? Did they happen in one day or incrementally? Most importantly when did the life come? Do you understand the history of E.Coli experiment and its advancements so far? The questions are many. Let see how far can you talk on these alone from the framework of "proven or measured or seen".






			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> In order to understand the vedas, don’t I have to believe that Brahma created everything, Vishnu will destroy it all, etc?
> 
> 
> Isn’t everything put in context with those beliefs? I honestly don’t know because everything I have read thus far says so
> ...


Like I stated, brahma is an experience and not an abrahamic God isolated from you or me. I requested you to transcend beyond names. Brahma as I repeat is a lower level of consciousness and Vishnu the supreme as per the context! Similarly, the world of Shakti can rise and merge, from Sati to Parvati to uniting with Shiva, where a man is said to be awakened with the union of Shakti with Shiva! It is simply a transenscion of consciousness, just like I gave the analogy of matter and energy rising from matter and energy and using matter and energy and becoming matter and energy at its end, where matter is alone seen as energy as per Quantums theory!






			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> Entropy, what’s wrong with it? Matter converts into energy and back again all the time in everyday life. Understanding it is
> 
> 
> not hard at all, not even thousands of years ago. You eat, you get strength. You don’t you faint. You get hungry you get
> ...


I don't really understand how these points you made are connected to context I'm talking of or perhaps you are again ignoring too much?


The scientists still do not know when Veda originate and FYI they clearly talk of earth's revolution, roundedness etc. You clearly ignored my question - Did the Indians also thought that the earth was round? Here Indians (the students of consciousness studies) refer to the people of the time and before, when "flat earth theory" was coined.


Clearly, this understanding of yours is again based on you abrahamic conditioning and limited perspective of modern science, where you are treating the the different levels of consciousness in isolation to each other, where the tide called Raaabo with the sense of "I" is perceiving itself and all the other tides from the metaphorical infinite ocean as separate from each other.




			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> Or it could also mean that both the cow and light help us survive, and thus are sacred. There are still many jumps of faith
> 
> 
> made in such cases. A greater understanding of something always raises the way in which you look at ancients. You may go to
> ...


The only flaw in your argument is that you made the science of the consistent ( where sifferent sages of 108 Upanishads, contributing to Veda, Tantras, Zend Avesta, Greek Literature arrived at the same conclusion ) compared to a case of probability "a broken clock is right twice a day". There is a difference between modern science and the science of the consciousness. Former works on the lowest level of consciousness and hence a "subset" of the latter, perhaps a subset of "Vaiseshika classification", but the latter works on the higher levels of consciousness aimed to achieve the highest. The former changes its theories based on a limited set of analysis, where the believers of science, those attached to it unable to understand it in detail change their tone as research changes with time. Hence the proverb - Dhobi ka kutta na ghar ka na ghaat ka (Its a proverb, not an abuse FYI). The Latter remains static, fixed, where sages can arrived at the same truth through different approaches as they like depending upon their outlook, creativity and experience and hence at a higher level of awareness can comprehend the reality/happenings and have a "direct access to knowledge". Yes, this understanding of "direct access to knowledge" is something alien to "modern science" before you jump to conclusions that everything is compared to "modern science" (like your dark energy comment). Hence different shruties though arriving at the same conclusions and affirmations, have different styles of writing! 






			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> If science calls something dark energy, I am sure someone will go back to the vedas and find a verse or two to show how it
> 
> 
> fits in perfectly with theory, however, this just doesn’t cut it for me, because as I said earlier, really enlightened and
> ...


"The Mysterious" dark energy used to explain the "faster expanding universe" which was earlier "supposed" to slow down under the effect of its own gravity? I didn't think that words like "mysterious" are apt to explain a phenomena which contradicts the earlier "supposed" theory. I won't really relate it to Vedas but again an example of a wild goose chase by the modern scientists just like as in the case of Higs-Boson which has so many fundamentals incorrect and already refuted by many other scientists.


But anyways, do you know what all has been taken from Shruties (Veda, Upanishads, Gita etc) by the "modern science"? I guess you are trying to make it a debate of Veda Vs Modern science, which is surely not my intention but would love to debate!






			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> Also as for the past and time, anything that’s measurable is acceptable. I will have written this in the past when you read
> 
> 
> it, yet I am sure you will not agree with it. That logic goes nowhere, because I thought I was the one you were trying to
> ...


You have got it all upside down. It is not because of Veda that a person may become knowledgeable, creative or wise! Veda is just a tool a guidance for those who seek genuinely and hence can utilize it, just like in the company of wise, even a foolish can change and improve! Moreover, it is a foundation for the lower sciences and hence a testimonial of the world's famous scientists from Heisenberg, Tesla, Einstein, Capra etc who were influenced and motivated by it.




Better is one's own law of works, swadharma, though in itself faulty than an alien law well wrought out; death in one's own law of being is better, perilous is it to follow an alien law ( BG 3.35)


This Self is not won by exegesis, nor by brain-power, nor by much learning of Scripture. Only by him whom It chooses can It be won; to him this Self unveils its own body. (manduka Upanishad 3.2.3, Page 145)


When thy intelligence shall cross beyond the whirl of delusion, then shalt thou become indifferent to Scripture heard or that which thou hast yet to hear. When thy intelligence which is bewildered by the Sruti, shall stand unmoving and stable in Samadhi, then shalt thou attain to Yoga. (BG 2.52-53)




Veda exist only because of science of consciousness and not vice versa, which in turn enables a foundation for lower material sciences. This science is embedded in everyone's heart or higher consciousness, the treasure hidden due to the play and conditioning and non-control at the lower levels of consciousness. Do you really think that the knowledge of whole world, number of species, the infinite play of shakti and her dynamism etc can be recorded in 4 books? It is a flow (Ganga) which automatically passes when one reaches the highest stages of meditation or consciousness (Shiva) and hence he becomes a hearer of the heard (shruti), transcending beyond time and space. Hence, it is said that only Shiva is powerful enough to accomodate the flow of Ganga to let it flow in a way which would not destroy but rejuvenate the earth (where man is freed from the essence of karta/doer or karma/actions). Yes, high level of intuition is a siddhi achieved at such a stage which enables a person to have access to direct knowledge. Just like you cannot lift a 100 kg on chest at first visit to gym, similarly a man cannot achieve this science by default. If you lift heavy weight by jerks, it can destroy you. Similarly, many people are indeed intuitive where their mind is not strongly developed to accomodate that intuition and often gets distorted by chaos of the conditioned and uncontrolled mind and hence attachment to such intuition can make them look like mad! Thus Veda is indeed written by humans but not a human level rather at a non-human or super-human level of awareness. This nullifies the lowly argument whether it is written by human or a "God". Therefore, it is not necessary for one to know sanskrit or Veda. The path of karma-Yoga (perfection in actions), bhakti-yog (perfection in devotion and surrender of ego) and gyaan-yog (perfection of knowledge) seem different but lead to the same destiny!


Words are themselves a limitation and so is the mind. But, IMO, Sanskrit is the perfect language which can incorporate this science in closest way as possible. 


Here is the text of Zend Avesta => PersianDNA™* [KHORDEH AVESTA] Niyayesh: Atash (Litany to Fire)
Hymns to Agni which draws close parallels to that in Veda. If you have even a little bit knowledge of sanskrit, you'd find same sanskrit words in the Avestan language as well where putra is modified to puthra, pancha (five) is used as it is, mitra -> mithra and words from sanskrit grammar. The only difference remains that deva and asura have been reversed here. 






The above science is not registered or approved by "modern material science", obviously how can that which resides in time and space know that which is beyond time and space?






			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> I can see what you’re saying, but I prefer to look at it as the radiation of energy in all directions. The light and heat get
> 
> 
> weaker the further you go, and the shape of the sun is a spheroid because it is observed so from various angles, and the
> ...


You got my logic all wrong. What would you call the shape of the Sun during solarwinds, Sunpots etc? Even a spheroid has a shape, but something which changes its shape all time due to increasing and decreasing flames cannot be said to have a "definite shape". How can that which is ever changing, according to the lower consciousness of sense, be called as having a definite shape?


Again, I'm talking about dynamism for nothing in the material world is "static".






			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> Again it sounds to me more like losing consciousness (as in passing out and letting your mind run wild). Many marijuana
> 
> 
> smokers I know report the very same thing. When I went to Nepal last year, and met and spoke to some of the hundreds of
> ...


Again you did not read my post properly. Tell me if the Marijuana smokers, drug addicts can control their mind or body under its effect? Do you really think Marijuana, smoking, drug-addiction "increases" life? The very concept of higher consciousness is based on detachment whereas the drug addiction is based on attachment to the sense-object! Moreover, a yogi who shows attachment to material pleasures like "Marijuana,smoking, drugs etc" is not really a Yogi in its basic definition. So I can only request you to not be fooled by the names/tags or what a person calls himself. Transcend to the essence, is the only thing I can request you. 




			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> So if I don’t believe it to be a higher science, and I am not willing to make leaps of faith I can never experience it? Is it
> 
> 
> even remotely possible that people will accept the explanation that I offer, which is that perhaps it is just a mind
> ...


A person who seeks interest in technology will indeed gain knowledge of it and what is available in terms of technology. It is as simple as that! You don't have to "believe" (like you assume) in the science of consciousness here. It is inherent to you! Similarly, one who seeks the highest does not need to read Veda, but simply genuinely seek it and the path shall reveal itself in time!


Either you can tune guitar in different ways and fail just to find the 1000th time about the best tuning or instead have a prior guidance about it. Either you can have a permutation and combination of different frets to fail and find the 1000th time about the correct chords or instead a have prior guidance about it. Similarly either you can seek and fail 1000 times to find the perfect procedure or have a prior guidance about it. So yes, your own inner consciousness can reveal different paths and optimize after sometime, or you can have a guidance from RigVeda, Upanishads, Gita and Tantras.


It seems you still did not read the "The Colloquy of Indra and Agastya" from "Secret of Veda by Aurobindo" (Refer page 265) that I requested you to read. I request you again to read it => *www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/downloadpdf.php?id=30‎








			
				scientists said:
			
		

> SCIENTISTS
> 
> 
> ALBERT EISTEIN (SCIENTIST): "When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous."
> ...



Read the above quote again!


If you still think that the science of consciousness, the essence of the Indian teaching, the shruties is a belief system or has anything to do with supersition etc, then I guess you have reduced all the stars of the modern science to theism.

But like I always requested, I would like you to move beyond from "who said what" and understand the shruties, not just read them, from your primary frameworks, with detachment after emptying yourself of all that of what you call as knowledge, only and only if you have a genuine interest in seeking the higher!






Anyways, much of your understanding is based on how you have seen the society in action, how those tagged as "Hindus" behave, analysis and statements from those who call themselves as 'Sadhus' (and still who use drugs) and so the drug-addicts and what the "modern science" has to tell you. I still don't see any iota of understanding so far in your posts about the basics of consciousness and how the science works for true science does not work on using terms like "mysterious" to explain a phenomena that contradicts the earlier "assumption" on which a theory was based (refer dark energy)! Moreover bringing a debunked theory like Evolution as a source of argument is not really wise.  I've told this before also and repeating again, we can't really move forward in this discussion if you don't develop the understanding of the basics of consciousness studies. If the shruties seem archaic to you, or its style incompatible with your "modern conditioning", then you can study the Ken wilber's "levels of consciousness" which is based on Aurobindo's explanation which is further based on Vedic teaching. Moreover, it seems to me that you are using and implementing the "modern frameworks" as a standard to view the science of consciousness. Trust me, until and unless you detach and empty your mind of what you know or decondition from modern "assumptions and conclusions" which revolve around material existence, you will never be able to understand the science of consciousness. 


Anyways, Like I asked, can you prove that you exist? You can use the modern science as much as possible!

Watch -> Rajiv Malhotra Lecture at Bhabha Atomic Research Center, Mumbai - YouTube



			
				ico said:
			
		

> and Mahabharata happened around the time of transition from Dvapar Yuga to Kaliyuga.
> 
> 
> So you mean to imply that continents were different 5000 years ago.


Its basically common-sense. The difference implies shape, size, neareness to other continents etc.


If you are appeased by modern day explorers and dating techniques then => Dwarka, India - 12,000 Year Old City of Lord Krishna Found - *Full* - YouTube


----------



## snap (Sep 10, 2013)

@mediator



			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> To assume that any belief explains everything is arrogance, and arrogance leads to the end of learning.





			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> The problem I have with most ancient texts is that the translator sees what he wants to see.


----------



## Anorion (Sep 10, 2013)

Hmm. Election tide will change, if not it will get lot of trp on way. 

Epics have records of moon phases and eclipses that allow us to date them, so

Pandavas go to forest - 4th sept 5575 bc
Gita sermon - 16th oct 5562 bc
War ends - 2 nov 5562 bc
Yudishtira coronation - 16 nov 5562 bc
Bhishma dies - 22 dec 5562 bc
Vidura dies - 18th aug 5544 bc


----------



## amjath (Sep 10, 2013)

theterminator said:


> Politicians added fuel to the fire here as always.



No u r trying to pour fuel to fire in this thread



> A lot of people died in Muzzafarnagar, Uttar Pradesh. *Rumour is that media is not reporting killing of Hindus *



I dont know where u read this rumour. It is a shame that 21 humans killed on that Riot. Either it is a Hindu or a muslim or a Christian, they are all same, they have family, soul and blood.
Ur recent posts shows that

U r trying to put kerosene into the burning fire.


----------



## mediator (Sep 10, 2013)

@Snap - Disagreed 100%

1st quote -> Irrelevant where conclusion, analysis is done on a science which is totally alien to the quote owner in the context and further apples have been used to compare to oranges i.e different framework used as a standard which doesn't match!

2nd quote -> Knowledge of the language is equally essential instead of generalizing which is done here. The only problem with sanskrit translations to English is finding the right words which can retain the original meaning in its completeness, as most Sanskrit words are an experience in themselves like Bhrama, deva, mahakaal, dharma etc which when translated to a language like English strips it of its underlying experience and hence the disconnect with the broader frameworks that Sanskrit presents! Here bhrama has been reduced to a level of Abrahamic God, further seen as isolated without knowing what the word itself means and further based on underlying ignorance of science of consciousness. 

NASA on Sanskrit & Artificial Intelligence by Rick Briggs


----------



## ico (Sep 10, 2013)

mediator said:


> NASA on Sanskrit & Artificial Intelligence by Rick Briggs


"Classical Sanskrit" should be the right word. The reason it is good for AI is because it is a high inflection language whose grammar was fixed (standardised) for the good by Panini, not because it is a "divine" language. I wrote this before as well.


----------



## mediator (Sep 10, 2013)

I never said its a divine language. Now that cracked me up! Anyways, you might understand what I said, once you start learning sanskrit.

But I guess you're right on classical sanskrit.


----------



## Hrishi (Sep 10, 2013)

Back then there was a form of science of which not every explanation holds true today. After thousands of years from now , they'll say the same for what we call as "Our modern science."
But the difference is that a majority of modern science explanations are not based just on common belief and controlled by dictators and religious sentiments but instead on known and proven facts. So the chances of mistakes will be lesser.


----------



## ico (Sep 10, 2013)

There are many who think it's a divine language or believe in something 'divine'. 

I know enough of Sanskrit btw.  Panini was a great grammarian.

I hate the fact that this language fell out of use. Beautiful language.


----------



## Raaabo (Sep 10, 2013)

mediator said:


> Absolutely correct on that. I can take you even deeper on that logic for there is no such thing as direction in this directionless world anyways. Like I reasoned for names etc as a frame of reference, direction is also a frame of reference in a relative term. For that matter can you even prove your existence? For all I can see, from a greater level of reasoning, is a tornado of molecules, a dance of energy behind your "perceived" shape of the body which is changing every nano-second. Does your existence go beyond to the atoms that left your body through excreta, perspiration, exhale etc or the do the atoms that come to your body, through inhale, drinking, energy from sun, light from tubelight etc, for a "moment" even belong to you in the first place?
> 
> What exactly are we trying to prove then? What is yours, Can you identify the atoms that are yours? Is your mind even registered to work at micro and the macro, subtler than the subtlest and larger than the largest of what is known?
> 
> Knowing here, exists at a different levels of consciousness. I just gave the example at the lowest level of consciousness i.e material play!



Exactly my point. We call it "East" but it's just a direction. And yes, directions exist - you yourself are trying to move "closer" to understanding your consciousness. This is a direction. According to you I am moving away, but that is also a direction.

I keep hearing from people who have existential crises apparently! How do I know it's you replying? The atoms of your hand yesterday were not the same as they are today. Some of your brain cells died from yesterday, thus it is not you anymore, and thus this conversation was over before it even began. We might all be living in Brahma's dreams, or maybe our entire Milky Way galaxy is just the dirt in his left foot's little toenail... Consciousness is not the forever doubting of one's existence. As the latin saying goes, I think, therefore I am. Also, I think differently than you, therefore I am not you. I can be a part of groups, a part of humanity, a tiny atom of the universe, but I am me. I think for myself, and do not blindly just follow a doctrine. Apparently you attempt to do the same thing, but the difference is, believing. I absorb all I can, just as you do, but I believe nothing until it is logical, free from mysticism, and is provable. It doesn't have to be the popular opinion or the right one, it just has to make sense, and be based in fact, and not fiction. Why stop at the vedas, there are some really interesting science fiction books written by Asimov, Clarke, Heinlin and the likes, they also question a lot of things and they do it in the future.

You have totally missed or sidestepped my point of view, either because you didn't understand it or it was inconvenient to take on. I accept the premise that what the vedas contain is possible as a teaching of understanding one’s self better, or maybe it was just stuff people talked about because they had no idiot politicians to laugh about. The difference is I also read a lot of things, and I don't limit myself to reading what I presuppose is true. This is led me to read psychology as well, and my experiences with thousands of humans has also given me my own insight into the way people think and act.



mediator said:


> You are getting confused I guess in this overdose of reasoning. I never would want people to "follow/believe" Vedas in the first place, but question it!
> 
> Questioning takes place the best when you have a genuine interest in the subject or the science and when you have read it, the complete teaching or the message devotedly without dissecting it in between. e.g Pythogoras theoram. Many would mug the theoram. But geuine seekers of mathematics would go to the root, as to how and why it happened. The same goes for the Vedas and hence the description of the term "astik" which I  detailed to you in my earlier reply. In this context, one who analyzes the pythagoras theoram, deduces it correctly and sees no flaw in it transcends to a position where he can affirm with confidence about the correctness of the theoram. In that sense, he has become an astik, for he read, understood, questioned and authorized!
> 
> Higher doesn't mean the best. Veda propound the science of consciousness from lowest (arthashastras,Ayurveda,Vaisheshika) to highest (shruties). Veda here is an umbrella term which is further branched and connected to itihaas, brahmanas and the science of shruties, the categorizations from different levels of descriptions Nyaya, Yoga, dvaita, advaita, Vaisheshika etc. Its a science of the holistic understanding holding cause and effect, time and space and that which is beyond cause and effect, time and space.



I am not confused, actually I am crystal clear, because all of what I say can be analysed logically, and doesn't hide behind words no one understands. When I don't understand something, I say it out loud, without shame. And yes, I am questioning them, exactly as you want people to. I have read a little of it, and I have an interest in it. Since I found nothing great in them, whatever little bits I read, and yet others swear by them, my interest is based on what they see in it that I didn't, and unlike most others, I do not take this for sure as a failing of myself, but I look at it that it may be a failing in myself, or it may be a failing of the other people. I just present both sides of the coin openly.

I agree people should understand, but I do not agree that everyone has to "experience" everything in order to move forwards. If that was the case, we'd all be hunters and gatherers, never sharing knowledge with one another, because hey, you need to figure it out yourself. If every living human had to learn and experiment and properly understand every little bit of basic science, we'd go back to prehistoric times.

And yes, I question "higher", not because you say it, but because the vedas do. I know you are just saying what they do, whereas I am questioning the very basis of higher and lower when it comes to knowledge and service. This is why the caste system arose, and I don't think the people who pick up my garbage deserve any less respect that me. Skills are one thing, a craftsman who can make something others can't deserves to demand a special price for his handiwork, and thus perhaps salaries of the garbage man would be lower than people who are on this forum, but I am  sure he also some knowledge that others can learn from. I have no doubt about complexities of things being called further studies, or specialisation, however, it still seems elitist to me to call the study of one's own thoughts "higher" than other sciences. A rocket engineer at NASA who spent most of his life studying something is certainly achieved a "higher" level of specialisation than me, but just because I sit about pondering why people act the way they do, and if I claim to be reading the vedas, saying that I am on a "higher" plane of consciousness is just narcissistic to me.

Anyway, as you say, question the vedas, and I am doing exactly that. They lived in an age when technology was non-existent, and the skills they had were usually all pretty equal. There were some special aspects of skills, sure, but basically everyone knew how to farm, to make curd or lassi from milk, all women knew how to cook something, all men knew about tobacco, or alcohol. All tended to cows and goats, all knew how to milk them. The hunters knew how to hunt (and yes there were hunters back then). Even the scientists were busy plotting stars and their movement, but some people decided to "interpret" the meaning of everything. There was superstition back then also, as is evident form the fire rituals, the sacrifices, or the rain dancers, shamen, whatever you want to call them. There’s no surprise that it was the religious leaders who held the answers to everything. In every uneducated group of villagers you will find one who others follow because he gives them answers they can understand. This is basic human tendency to try and be in the limelight and get power.

As you will have seen from all around you, as true scientific knowledge increases, superstitions decrease. Of course it's been put into our psyche by thousands of years of "idle gossip" by people who do not understand - and thus even today if you walk out of your house and a black cat crosses your path you might stop for a second, then shake your head and go along your way. Many will not even do that or notice even – and still others like me will insist on having a black cat as a pet, which I do. If i see a ladder, I make it a point to walk under it. It’s just my way of experimenting with supposed superstitions.




mediator said:


> I guess you still haven't understood the basic meaning of consciousness or the order that I have explained again and again or the Ritam at large. It is not limited to "life" or happening on the earth. For that matter, even if I narrow myself to your understanding, how can you call that which contains life as lifeless? For that matter the essence of Sun like I explained before, encompasses the entire solar system. Earth is a part of the solar system which is a part of milky way galaxy and hence the universe. How can you call Universe as lifeless which contains you and me? Like I questioned before, are you really apart from the Universe or you are simply a part of it?
> 
> What is "that" which is holding the entire template of your body together which is just a chaotic tornado of atoms at a nano-seconds measure? Who exactly are you? The atoms that left you or the atoms that come to you? Do you think that is measurable, verifiable and proven?
> 
> ...



Again, I do not disagree with you since I haven’t been able to meditate and lose myself like others claim to have done. I accept that this is perhaps the weakness of my own mind. Will you accept that perhaps it is the weakness of yours that allows you to achieve this? Like I said, many sadhus I have met who can read and quote from the vedas from memory, also say that marijuana gives the same effect. So is meditating a natural way of getting high?

Do you really need to lose consciousness before you can appreciate it? Traditionally, we make fun of those who cannot appreciate what they have until they lose it.

Again with grand words like essence, whereas the only effect the sun has on the universe is radiation and gravity. Sure there may be a magical bit of invisible string tying every insect, plant, human and animal to the sun, or maybe every atom of everyone, but just because there is a “possibility” doesn’t make it a “probability”. Life is probability. Why isn’t there a tribe on the moon if the sun is such a giver of life? Where are the Martians? We sit on a world that was at the right end of the probability divide, and thus life was made “possible”. Basic physics, chemistry and biology explains what holds us together. Holds all living objects together for that matter. And yes, we are able to measure and find pretty close approximates to how much a person eats a day, how much is converted to calories, how much is excreted, how many hairs fall, how much skin is turned to dust around the house, what are the chances of getting dust mites because of not cleaning. Everything is and has been studied, and you can go do it too, using simple mathematics and the powers of observation.

By using your “who are you” analogy, and trying to dissolve everything into nothingness or your own quaint little description of consciousness – if I am no one, neither are you, and neither were any of the people who wrote the vedas, and neither is Brahma or Vishnu, or Allah, or Christ, and we should all just give up right this instant and accept that we don’t exist. Sorry, but I very much do exist, as did the people who made all the things that allow us to sometimes make silly points on this forum. As did the people who wrote down what you hold so dear, or the blogs and teachings of so many you learn from. They are all held together just as well as the Nirbhaya rapists, and our horrible politicians, and Hitler. There is no good and bad in being held together and existing, we just do. Life in abstracts can make you feel special, but eventually you wake up and smell the reality all around you.

I have my maths concepts in place, but perhaps you didn’t read all of my post.



Raaabo said:


> Actually not exactly, but for the sake of simplicity an acceptable compromise.



Now to the point, who told you the universe is infinite? Did you travel for an infinite time to try and reach the end at speeds greater than light and have now come back to report that it isn’t? Yes we consider what is observable, as we do in every aspect of life around us, not just the vastness of the universe. There is no point you’re making here, because this is exactly what I’ve been saying all along. Infinity is a simple way of saying “we don’t know” or “undefined” or “currently uncalculable”. I know many people like to give themselves self-importance and claim to understand infinity, but the reality is the idea of infinity is one of belief in itself.




mediator said:


> If you really think, this Universe is finite, then what is beyond this Universe? What is the shape of this finite. Is this finite rotating and revolving around something higher (lets call it X1)? What is the shape of that X1? Is that finite also rotating and revolving around something higher (lets call it X2)? Do you really think this recursive question/series is finite alone? If you have no answer to it and are waiting for "modern science" to give an answer, then I guess you are undermining your own consciousness and limiting because of an attachment to a thought that "modern science" one day will give you an answer  which is again a blind-belief in modern science!
> 
> Regarding time, it is relative indeed where time becomes a function of movement. The faster the movement, the lesser the time and so on. But like I have discussed before, who exactly analyzes the frameworks of time? Who causes a distinction between night and day, good and bad, small and large? Do you think the frameworks of time are the same for one who cannot see, hear, speak or touch i.e all five senses not working?
> 
> Close your eyes and walk, can you really see where you are walking? When that which is causing a reference has been removed, how can you even categorize then? Like I asked you, if time is a reality, then why do we lose a sense of time and space when we dream? Time exists only at lower frame of consciousness and ceases to exist as we go higher in the place of consciousness.



I don’t know what is beyond the edge of the universe, but I can certainly tell you that you don’t either, and neither does any living soul. Of course with everything that is unknown and unmeasurable, you will always get people jumping out and saying:

“I know! It came to me in a dream! I floated past the edge of the universe and then I travelled so fast suddenly and was transported back to the opposite end. Even the universe is circular, but it is still miniscule to God, thus the entire universe is merely a toe ring of Lord <insert deity here>’s little toe!” 

Now depending on how seriously that is taken, more and more people will sit and opine this, and eventually you might have a verse thrown in by some good writers that equates this to the philosophy of our times. If this stupid line I said survives 10,000 years, and the people of that time have barely made it across the milky way, who knows how many people will quote the teachings of TDF. I kid, of course, because we’re already beyond such easily gullible times, but there’s a point that’s being made there.

Is the ability to say “I don’t know” such an insult to homo sapiens? I see it all the time around me, from so-called gurus to someone you ask simple directions from on the street. There’s almost a sense of sheepishness that creeps in when people have to go, “Sorry, but I don’t know.” How much has ego gotten into our systems where we HAVE to know. If science doesn’t offer an answer right now, I’m happy to sit back and say, “Sorry I don’t know.” However, will so called religious or spiritual people do the same? Why don’t you think about that for a bit, and perhaps take the real high road to understanding the flaws that humans have. We keep wanting to be perfect, but we aren’t. We want to be smart, but we’re still dumb. The truth comes from accepting that you don’t know – or else you head down a path that takes you in circles.

See the asking for directions analogy I gave above? Many people are taken in by “knowers” based on their surety and absolute confidence in what they “know”. Once you figure out you’re lost, what do you do? Do you keep barrelling on through the jungle looking for the spot, unfased, because the directions seemed so precise and confident, or do you stop, go back and start again.

Science is like exploring, and accepting defeat when reaching a dead end, going back and trying to find a new path. Faith is like sitting around at that dead end wondering what is beyond the dead end. Eventually you wonder so long, and make such precise mental images of the wonders beyond the wall, that you start believing in it.

There are no blind beliefs in modern sciences, those only exist in religious sciences, because “I/we don’t know” undermines religious sciences, but is what fuels modern science.

Time becoming a function of movement, and how, to what degree, until when at the speed of light time stands still is modern science’s contribution, and yes, it’s a theory still until we can prove it by moving at relativistic speeds. However, the examples you use are explained easily. Close your eyes and walk, and you will stumble – as will the greatest studier of the vedas, as will I. Thus, using that example is pointless. Biology will explain why it is so. And it doesn’t even have to be human minds you analyse to see that. Blind a bird and it flies into the wall, blind a cat or a dog and it does the same, blind a fish and it gets eaten by a predator because it swims where it shouldn’t. Anti-bacterial medication kills and inhibits bacteria… what is the point of all this? We already know all of this.

As for why you lose sense of time when you sleep, this is because your conscious is resting but your sub-conscious brain is still firing. Most of your perception and senses are controlled by the conscious side of the brain, because evolution made them more important senses to survive in tougher times. Biology 101. Yet you will also awake when refreshed, even if in a totally serene room with the perfect temperature and zero light changes. People who wake up on time everyday often wake up just before their alarms ring – and this has happened to everyone at some point, say, when you know you have a meeting you cannot miss. The brain still knows time, even if it does not scream it into your conscious memory as it would a waking thought. Again, this is another example of consciousness, not something higher than it. Unconsciousness is actually “lower”, which is why you never get anything done when sleeping, and why most people die in their sleep. Rest modes are needed, but not productive, and there’s nothing higher about a dream state, merely different, and in some ways lower.




mediator said:


> A simple example :
> 
> Raaabo is sitting at the top of eucalyptus tree and Mediator down. Earth being round, your best friend comes from far where you can see but I cannot. For you, your friend is more like present-tense, but for me he is future-tense as I cannot see him. When he comes near me, where I can see him, he becomes present. For you he still remains present. When he leaves and goes at a distance where I cannot see him, he becomes past. But for you he is still more like present tense. You could see the flow, but I could not!
> 
> This eucalyptus tree here is a reflection of the scale of consciousness here, where that which is beyond the realms of time and space, cause and effect can see the cause and effect, for whom past, present and future all become one! Hence Mahakaal is called as trikaaldarshi whereas human level of consciousness can only dwell in or percieve a limited framework of cause and effect and hence there exists a science to raise one's consciousness to the Shiva/Mahakaal/Mahadev/trikaaldarshi/supreme consciousness!



I would call down from the eucalyptus tree and say “Hey mediator, here comes Anorion, can you see him?” And you’d reply, “No you ignorant techno-junkie, the earth is round, so I cannot see him now, but I will soon enough, unless he turns back”. There’s nothing mystical about this, and it isn’t an example of time. Light and curvature of the earth, sure, but time, not at all.

You consciousness sees what you want it to see, and this is why what you call a higher state, I call lower, because your dreams are always incoherent, and thrown together badly as if your brain was malfunctioning. You could dream that you took a holiday to Gujarat, and everyone looked like Narendra Modi, except Narendra Modi, who when you met him looked just like Rahul Gandhi! Ok Maybe not a dream, but a nightmare, but you see, this is the pattern that dreams follow. Just leaking of electrical impulses and imperfect memories of random events. If you’re watching a horror show, and were genuinely frightened, the chances of you having a nightmare is heightened. If you got turned on by a love making scene on TV before you slept, you may even have nightfall and if you remember the dream, often it’s the girl from the love making scene you saw, only her hair is different, and she’s wearing a sari and claims to be from India but looks like she’s from abroad… but your brain will insist she’s the same girl from the scene you saw, even though when you wake up, you know it wasn’t. The conscious brain is what makes the logical and right choices, the unconscious one come up with some freaky $h17!

Now again I claim ignorance when it comes to meditation, but based on the scores of people who claim to do it successfully, narrating it to me, it sounds more dreamlike than conscious. It sounds fantastically superfluous, and just like being in a dream, but then dreams are good, they’re just not sensible. Again, the illusions that drugs like marijuana bring – almost everyone who has meditated and smoked dope claim that the two are similar in bringing peace and tranquillity to one’s “soul”. It’s a wonderful feeling I’m told, and it feels like you’re floating. You know who else has those feelings? Children!

There might have been times in all of your lives as a child where things felt fantastic, and you may even have believed that you could walk on air or water. Sometimes euphoria would take over and make you believe you could levitate. Maybe not, or maybe you don’t remember it, but almost everyone I have ever spoken to agrees that as a child, even the clouds would form wonderful shapes, everything looked more awesome and beautiful, and unbelievable things would happen all around you. Some even had imaginary friends – aliens, dead pets, other little boys or girls, baby Ganesha… the imaginations we had as children were always good fun and wondrous in the way they felt, but today if you look back at it, you know that it was the more innocent mind playing tricks on you. Of course a lot of us wish to feel that way again, and do it even today when sitting about day dreaming, meditating, dreaming, smoking dope, drinking alcohol, etc. Mind altering is usually fun and relaxing, thus all the junkies who need a fix – drugs, music, booze, etc. it’s so nice not to think sometimes…

However, I have found that only in the conscious and thinking mind do things when logic take precedence. Go out and buy something when drunk, and it will probably be useless, but when sober and aware, you buy things on merit. A silly example, but I suppose you get the drift.



mediator said:


> Perhaps you have been never introduced to this science, the science of inner which you may call it, as since your childhood you have been conditioned to the analysis of the external? So yes, there is a higher consciousness needed to understand time. I guess it is your "belief" that such a plane is not needed? Obviously, Brahma has a limited time frame and again, exists at a lower level of consciousness only. It is not the same as Brahman! Brahma is the body of the universe which contains the manifest and the unmanifest, but there is that which lies beyond and hence a metaphor of "Vishnu dreaming of infinite Brahmas" where Vishnu dreaming on the AnantNag refers to that which lies dormant and holding this entire body of brahma together which is metaphorically called as "sleeping" where Anant-Nag by its very meaning (Anant = Endless/Infinite) refers to eternal, infinite existence. This somehow resembles the "parallel" universe theory or perhaps the theory has been taken from this Indian metaphor? But according to an atheist like you, it is already void, for you have already rejected its basis which cannot be "proven or measured or seen". For that matter, do you think the evolution theory or the Big Bang that you "believe" in is "proven or measured or seen"? They have been debunked already where I can pour my own questions to further the discussion. Should I call it your blind belief then in these debunked theories?
> 
> Further, if its a blind-belief or a belief alone, how different are you, an atheist from the so called theist?



Again, sorry, but I see no Brahman or Brahma around me anywhere. This is pure fiction, and about as believable to me as it is to you when someone says Allah created the universe. If so, then why can’t Allah just be a translation of the word Brahma / Brahman? In that case just as every Hindu has gone off on the wrong path according to you, so has every Muslim, and they are equally right and wrong in their own ways. And the big bang is a “theory” no one calls it fact, not even its most staunch believers or the people working in that direction. Again, probability and possibility. It could be possible that there is an entity or force called Brahman /Brahma that acts the very way you describe it, and it’s also possible that there isn’t. Probability is built up based on evidence, and mathematics. If I told you that I would pay you Rs 1 lakh salary per month, and then gave you 200 x 10 rupee notes, you would fight with me. You wouldn’t let me get away with any “theory” of mine that explained to you that the amount of meaningless atoms in the 2,000 I gave you were identical to the other bundle of Rs 100 x 1000 that I have with me as well. It’s all the same in some ways, but it’s all very different in the ways that matter.

Like I have said from the very beginning of this discussion, even science has beliefs. I have always refuted the use of the words “know” or “knowing” when you use them, and god knows how many times I have use quotes to highlight “belief” in my replies. I am not the one saying science “knows” everything. I merely state that logic and mathematics is used there and thus the probability of it coming up with the right answer eventually is a lot higher. 




mediator said:


> The video I showed and the discovery is based on dating techniques. "A claim or what has been claimed" is a totally different thing! I really don't know how you define civilization. But for me civilization means a society which can learn to co-exist with the nature and the animals, promotes science of consciousness and mind and body control to be taught at a very young age to children, perfection in various spheres of life, ability to retain knowledge. For that matter, I don't see the "modern world" to be much civilized which is busy in external analysis, attachment and making concrete jungles out of fertile lands in the name of "progress and development", where life has been reduced to a little booze, drug-addiction, engrossed in one's own life and job without any concern for the Family, Joint Family, Nation and world at large!
> 
> So what even if there are cave paintings? How can you really say that they were not civilized or again, the conception of civilization that you are hinting at has been borrowed and the limited framework of your own mind being used to judge the people of the past? Is eating with hands less civilized than eating with forks and spoon?
> 
> Research yourself on Shaolin temples, where living is simple with an aim to perfect the control over the body. There they use a concept of Qi/Chi which is not really registered in the frameworks of modern science. Again "knowing" comes into the picture and not some "belief"!




I know, I have seen that video before and watched it again when you posted it. In the video themselves they say they found artifacts dating back to about 9,500 years. Also I think the length of my posts perhaps tires people out and gives them the wrong ideas. When I quoted the cave paintings, that was exactly the point I was making. In fact I would say that evolution itself is civilisation, because the best survival methods live on.

As for the way of life it is now, I suppose everyone’s unhappy with it, but that’s what happens when we get tom many humans. However, for me, it’s also what’s needed. You need to get fed up of being stagnant, as that’s what brings evolution. Notice how many people applied to go to mars? I wanted to as well but was forbidden, and it was sending the wrong message to my family that I was applying to go off for good to mars just when I am about to have a child. In order to protect humanity and prevent World War III, I decided to not apply in the end.

It’s only when we’re bored do we search for answers and challenges. Life is what it is here, and some of us are so fed up of it we’re willing to leave everything behind and go off into space, to an alien world, leave all of our loved ones and belongings behind, risk a horrible death, loneliness and more just to do something new and get away. Isn’t that what people do when meditating as well? However, from my point of view, this overcrowding and degradation of life is a good thing in some ways because it is forcing mankind to branch out. The truth is out there amongst the stars in space, and not in the space between our ears. Somehow we’ve filled this planet after exploring it, and now we need to do the same up there. Given the amount of knowledge we have accumulated by just digging around this little insignificant planet, imagine the wealth of knowledge and experience that awaits us in space…

Evolution requires that we do it, it’s the next step for mankind.

There’s no need to ridicule me by suggesting being civilised is eating with a fork, and anyone who actually read any of my posts will know that this is just a bad assumption. However, there is a difference between us and a caveman. We live longer, we use more technology and have more access to things. This is evolution, going back to a much earlier post where you asked why evolution stopped. It hasn’t. We have built massive cities, because we had to. A lot of what has happened is out of necessity rather than pure interest. How we have evolved from real interactions to this digital form is also evolution. It may or may not be ideal, but it is what we’re forced into, given the amount of pain required to travel in the real world. It’s also brought more and more people together to share ideas, and this is also evolution. Thus as I said earlier, evolution is civilisation, and vice versa.

Again, with anything physical, control is exercised with a lot of practice and belief. Please understand I do not mean self-confidence, the kind that Usain Bolt needs to exert over his brain to push past pain. This is often considered to be “knowing” when it’s basically forcing your brain to not accept that you are tired. As a former marathon runner and athlete myself, I can tell you about how when we’re younger we feel we’re invincible, and sometimes knowing we can do something that we can’t, brings about our downfall. All we have is belief in our abilities, and so long as that doesn’t turn into the arrogance of demanding from your body what it cannot supply, i.e., pretending to know what it can do without actually knowing.

However, we don’t really “know” what we can do, because we always feel we can push a little harder. Thus we “strongly believe” that we can improve. 

“Knowing” is fine for “knowing” that you can climb up one flight of stairs without trouble. We certainly “know” that much. However, you might believe that you can run up 25 flights of stairs in 4 minutes without collapsing of exhaustion… you might be able to, you might not, only “doing” will allow you to change “belief” to “knowing”. All pushing of physical boundaries for sports or martial arts etc., is hard work and belief. This is why I exert the same parameters for the brain and the sciences. You can believe all you want, but someone has to “do” something before proving satisfactorily that something is a fact.



mediator said:


> This is again an example where you are judging everything through a narrow and limited frameworks of "physical" alone. Like I said, if you dwell in the lowest consciousness i.e physical
> 
> 1. Can you prove your own existence then?
> 2. Can you explain why you lose a touch of time and space often during your dreams?
> ...



What you call narrow, I call realistic. What you therefore call broad, I call fantasy. Perhaps neither of us is right in the grand scheme of things, or maybe one of us is, but the understanding and “knowing” as I pointed out earlier, comes only from being able to test. By your logic, since you cannot prove that you as an individual exist, and there’s no real difference between you and the universe, then neither does the universe exist, or anything else. If that was the case, why fear death? Why punish a rapist or murderer? If I came walking towards you with a knife, would you open your shirt and point me to where your heart is, or fight me off? If everything is just pointless and so spiritual, why debate? Why bother understanding anyway?

As for my point of view, I am because I think for myself. I am isolated from the earth and sun because I can travel beyond them in space to a new sun. I cannot actually, because I am not important enough, but if a ship was built for me I could do it. Now you will say universe, and then the whole of existence. And to that I say, the whole universe is not in me, because I do not have a big enough ego to contain it. I do not have delusions of grandeur. Mars is not inside my mind or my being just because it is made of atoms and so am I. Mars is made up of a set of things, and so am I. At the atomic level we are all the same and that’s a wondrous thing, but it doesn’t prove or disprove god or some connection. If I die will mars die? If someone burns me does a new spot appear on Mars? Connections are easy to make in the abstract, but that doesn’t prove one, and neither does it allow anyone to actually feel one. 

Of course someone deluded would pass gas and then claim it was a volcanic eruption on Mars that caused it. Or maybe someone’s stomach would rumble and claim it was an earthquake on Venus. This is all fantasy, and honestly, perhaps good humour or fiction, but completely pointless in the grand scheme of things.





mediator said:


> You can google for the debunks from the modern day scientists yourself, but since there is an overwhelming conditioning of yours to Evolution, let me ask. What really happened to the dinosaurs or the explanation is again a plausible theory? Since the survival of the fittest, adaptation and mutation enables the species to grow to a more suitable environment, is it necessary that the eating habits would change too? How were the senses developed? Did they happen in one day or incrementally? Most importantly when did the life come? Do you understand the history of E.Coli experiment and its advancements so far? The questions are many. Let see how far can you talk on these alone from the framework of "proven or measured or seen".



You can also Google for the many more theories and findings that support it. It’s a theory, and is backed up by practical evidence. Of course it has some chinks in its armour? Maybe it wasn’t a meteorite that killed the dinosaurs, maybe it was a scale eating bacteria. Maybe climate change and the coming of the ice age caused it, and maybe a meteor killed them all like is popularly believed, or maybe all of the above. The difference between modern science is it’s trying to find this all out, would you rather take the sayings of some ancient tribe as the gospel truth? I thought the words of some such tribes based on faith were evil? How do we choose which tribe to believe?

Evolution is constant change, because the minute there are more tigers than bison, tigers can start fighting one another or finding new food sources. Less bison means more grass and less trampled flowers, this spreads seeds further, and more plant types are created as bees pollinate different plants that might never have crossed. This may mean taller trees, thus requiring the animals to stretch their necks further to get to the leaves, and this might result in the very first bison with a long neck that later we call a giraffe. Meanwhile the tigers can’t catch the monkeys, but they focus on the slower moving neandrathal as prey, which in turn changes them into faster and more upright humanoids in order to be able to run and hunt and protect themselves better. 

This is just random thoughts being thrown out there so don’t take them as examples, but one single change of many bison dying in a flood can bring about an evolution. Not just in physical forms but in behaviours as well. Killer whales never hunted near shorelines, for example, but have started doing so in known documented history – a blink of an eye in evolution terms – and this is because the seals got more accustomed to land as ice floes reduced… evolution is merely adaptation to an ever changing world, which bring me back to relevance… the world is different, and new ideologies are needed, instead of clinging to old ones… that’s evolution. And yes, it’s seen and observable.

Gradually, whether people like it or not, a lot of the world is moving away from religion, and this causes the powers that control the religions to get more and more desperate to control them. It will not be easy, because as you have seen on this forum itself, people get touchy and supporting their religion, even if they themselves break every “law” their own religion has imposed on them on a daily basis. They couldn’t be bothered by rites and rituals, yet you get indignation of someone from the same religion being questioned. This too shall pass, because it must, as we evolve and adapt to the new world we live in.




mediator said:


> Like I stated, brahma is an experience and not an abrahamic God isolated from you or me. I requested you to transcend beyond names. Brahma as I repeat is a lower level of consciousness and Vishnu the supreme as per the context! Similarly, the world of Shakti can rise and merge, from Sati to Parvati to uniting with Shiva, where a man is said to be awakened with the union of Shakti with Shiva! It is simply a transenscion of consciousness, just like I gave the analogy of matter and energy rising from matter and energy and using matter and energy and becoming matter and energy at its end, where matter is alone seen as energy as per Quantums theory!



Your understanding of Abrahamic religions is flawed. Take Christianity, it states that God created us in his own likeness, and that he exists in all of us, and is everywhere. Ask the pope if god watches us on mars and on alpha centauri, and he will say yes. All religions are the same, they espouse a belief in an all-powerful creator. Nothing just happens, it’s all part of god’s will / energy / chi flow / grand scheme. All religions also state that giving to your fellow humans is the path to god, loving and nurturing life, etc. Everything you said in the paragraph quoted is similar to what people from other religions say as well. The words used may be different, the names are different, the belief is the same, and proof of such is exactly zero. You cannot prove anything because it’s an experience, when you know, you know, and other such double talk. It works well in the abstract, and has no real meaning to life as we know it. Just as the moon god was shown to be a dead rock in space that humans have walked on, so will the rest of the universe eventually. If, or according to probability, when we meet an alien race and it looks and behaves nothing like us, I am sure the creationists and religions will find a way to explain that as well. In the abstract everything is explained so easily, in real science everything is a question that leads to a hundred more.

Where in the vedas is an explanation of matter and energy as science shows it. Where are the atomic bombs and E=MC^2. Wheres the explanation of friction, of gravity, of the solar flares you love to talk about? Is it written the sun is made of hydrogen and helium, and burns in this way, is estimated to be thus large, and has solar flares that are millions of miles long, which emit radiation, but we’re protected by the magnetic field of our earth’s iron core? Or will you now point me to a passage that says Agni gets angry from time to time, and shoots weapons at non-believers? We can find explanations the way children (and many adults) find shapes in the clouds – in anything. People read tea leaves and read tarot cards, they find patterns in a jungle and the way flowers bloom. This is the nature of us and the world, and our understanding of it can be subjective and personal, or be all inclusive and logic based. The same logic that displays the dots just the right way on your screen so that my words are intelligible to you, and not the belief and hope that allows you to read so much more into what could just be a very simplistic statement.




mediator said:


> I don't really understand how these points you made are connected to context I'm talking of or perhaps you are again ignoring too much?
> 
> The scientists still do not know when Veda originate and FYI they clearly talk of earth's revolution, roundedness etc. You clearly ignored my question - Did the Indians also thought that the earth was round? Here Indians (the students of consciousness studies) refer to the people of the time and before, when "flat earth theory" was coined.
> 
> Clearly, this understanding of yours is again based on you abrahamic conditioning and limited perspective of modern science, where you are treating the the different levels of consciousness in isolation to each other, where the tide called Raaabo with the sense of "I" is perceiving itself and all the other tides from the metaphorical infinite ocean as separate from each other.



I was offering explanations to the quotes you put up, that maybe, just maybe, there are explanations for what was said, if you go into the context of what was life like then. It’s easy to take today’s knowledge, and find similarities in the past sayings of people long gone. Like I said, Google a little and you will find even the Bible and Quran being quoted to explain modern science’s findings. Yet we are always selective. Our own religion’s followings always follow science’s findings and everyone else’s just do not. It’s too convenient.

The vedas may have been written by the scientific and religious minds of that time, but the fact that they talk of a round earth in no way is proof of their righteousness of all aspects of life and every quote. Just because I said some day we will probably meet aliens, if we do, does that make every statement I ever made before it and after also fool proof?

As for that last sentence, sometimes I wonder if the people who talk like this even realise what they themselves are saying. I will assume you do, however, there is no tide called Raaabo or a tide called “I” that flow, there is just me and my logical way of thinking, the conclusions I draw, much like your thought process. You are not a tide, and your thoughts are very similar to many others, just as mine are, there is nothing special or unique about most of these thoughts, and there is certainly no infinite ocean.

As for Abrahamic conditioning, I belonged to family of forward thinking teachers who never forced me to go to church and even encouraged me to go to a mosque and temple and learn whatever I wanted to. Of course I went to church most often because a lot of my friends were there and especially a lot of the cute looking girls I was interested in. This never stopped me from listening to every word that was said and even questioning the people who spoke them. I was branded a trouble maker at quite a young age, and to be honest I kind of enjoyed the attention, as it’s human to do so. I have also grown up and read a lot based on interest, and formulated my own opinions. I try as much not to just drown people with links, because I believe if I cannot explain it myself, I would rather lose an argument, rather than cite what someone else said. Abrahamic conditioning is the least accurate description I have ever heard of myself, and those who know me in person will vouch for that.



mediator said:


> The only flaw in your argument is that you made the science of the consistent ( where sifferent sages of 108 Upanishads, contributing to Veda, Tantras, Zend Avesta, Greek Literature arrived at the same conclusion ) compared to a case of probability "a broken clock is right twice a day". There is a difference between modern science and the science of the consciousness. Former works on the lowest level of consciousness and hence a "subset" of the latter, perhaps a subset of "Vaiseshika classification", but the latter works on the higher levels of consciousness aimed to achieve the highest. The former changes its theories based on a limited set of analysis, where the believers of science, those attached to it unable to understand it in detail change their tone as research changes with time. Hence the proverb - Dhobi ka kutta na ghar ka na ghaat ka (Its a proverb, not an abuse FYI). The Latter remains static, fixed, where sages can arrived at the same truth through different approaches as they like depending upon their outlook, creativity and experience and hence at a higher level of awareness can comprehend the reality/happenings and have a "direct access to knowledge". Yes, this understanding of "direct access to knowledge" is something alien to "modern science" before you jump to conclusions that everything is compared to "modern science" (like your dark energy comment). Hence different shruties though arriving at the same conclusions and affirmations, have different styles of writing!



First up, my Hindi is pretty decent, so I understand simple dhobi ka kutta kind of sayings, to save you time in the future. Sanskrit, I’m terrible at, so those please dumb down as much as possible.

That’s easy to do, by the way. Say the same things in multiple ways. Both you and I are doing it all through this conversation and I certainly think neither of us is qualified to be followed as great minds of our time. I would have liked it even more if there were differences in the findings, much like the way modern science keeps contradicting itself with new and improved data. However, I think it’s also possible that given a popular belief, if one wanted to be known and famous, one would try and use a different method to arrive at the same conclusion, a new way of thinking perhaps. This is also a lot easier to do in the abstract, as the details do not need to be worked out. If you have a goal, there will always be 100 paths to reach it, some will be the most efficient, some the most scenic, some tough and daunting and even more of them just different, but not by much. When the end result is known, this is easy. Like telling a good chemistry student to make a particular compound using “any chemicals”. He /she could probably find 20 different ways of making exactly what you want. Exploration by documenting every step and questioning every theory or leap of faith, and then proving mathematically what you are doing is verifiable to others, that’s science.

Religions tried to formulate theories for everything using higher powers, and then kept losing interest in the details when they were either accepted or rejected by the real sciences. What’s proven is not fantastic or magical. Religion needs mystery. The only frontier left is in the abstract, even though not even close to 10 per cent of the physical aspect of our world is “proven”, people are already losing interest in it. If science can explain something magical like the northern lights, then everything will be explained eventually. If it can measure Jupiter’s density and tell you that it would float if inserted into a gigantic sea… what’s left to explain.

It’s this lack of wonder that drives people into the abstract, because the sense of understanding what “most” can’t is the draw here. It feels intellectual and superior in some way, and thus the insistence on terms such as “higher” to explain it, and also the use of emotional words such as “essence”. This is a doctrine that is followed by religions and seers of all sorts, because it seems to be more authoritative when larger words are used. Compare this to science, which comes up with a lot of weird words, but takes the time to explain why. Not only do they tell you why they did something, they tell you how, and help you understand the whole process so you can replicate it. Where’s the dummy’s guide to meditation? Where’s the list of 10 experiences that all people who meditate have in common, even if they have a million different ones? Where’s all the simple rational explanations for what is this higher plane of existence, and the proof of its existence? Why is it that drug addicts report the same feelings as people who seek a higher consciousness? These are the questions I ask myself, and the reasons for my scepticism, and need for more proof and clarity before I can take the step to believing even part of it.




mediator said:


> "The Mysterious" dark energy used to explain the "faster expanding universe" which was earlier "supposed" to slow down under the effect of its own gravity? I didn't think that words like "mysterious" are apt to explain a phenomena which contradicts the earlier "supposed" theory. I won't really relate it to Vedas but again an example of a wild goose chase by the modern scientists just like as in the case of Higs-Boson which has so many fundamentals incorrect and already refuted by many other scientists.
> 
> But anyways, do you know what all has been taken from Shruties (Veda, Upanishads, Gita etc) by the "modern science"? I guess you are trying to make it a debate of Veda Vs Modern science, which is surely not my intention but would love to debate!



As I said before, if you don’t fail, you’re not experimenting or learning. Finding the clues to the right answer is usually more about eliminating the possibilities and increasing the probability. As for CERN, it is happy to fail, because even failure is a learning. Science is not ego based on the need to be right, it is knowledge based and accepts failure and doubt with open arms and learns from it. Something no religion has ever done. Thus although science has a set of followers, it certainly isn’t a religion.




mediator said:


> You have got it all upside down. It is not because of Veda that a person may become knowledgeable, creative or wise! Veda is just a tool a guidance for those who seek genuinely and hence can utilize it, just like in the company of wise, even a foolish can change and improve! Moreover, it is a foundation for the lower sciences and hence a testimonial of the world's famous scientists from Heisenberg, Tesla, Einstein, Capra etc who were influenced and motivated by it.
> 
> Better is one's own law of works, swadharma, though in itself faulty than an alien law well wrought out; death in one's own law of being is better, perilous is it to follow an alien law ( BG 3.35)
> 
> ...



No you’ve got me upside down. I never said the vedas were right or wrong. I have never read them enough to know that. I specifically said they were irrelevant.

There’s a reason I said that. To start with, they require faith in “powers” that most people associate with gods. No matter how much people try and explain it all away as to what Brahma really means (which no one can be sure of anyway, since all the people who wrote it are dead, and there was no neat little stack of proofs or documentation or footnotes as is left in real science), to the world it is still faith-based idealogy.




mediator said:


> Veda exist only because of science of consciousness and not vice versa, which in turn enables a foundation for lower material sciences. This science is embedded in everyone's heart or higher consciousness, the treasure hidden due to the play and conditioning and non-control at the lower levels of consciousness. Do you really think that the knowledge of whole world, number of species, the infinite play of shakti and her dynamism etc can be recorded in 4 books? It is a flow (Ganga) which automatically passes when one reaches the highest stages of meditation or consciousness (Shiva) and hence he becomes a hearer of the heard (shruti), transcending beyond time and space. Hence, it is said that only Shiva is powerful enough to accomodate the flow of Ganga to let it flow in a way which would not destroy but rejuvenate the earth (where man is freed from the essence of karta/doer or karma/actions). Yes, high level of intuition is a siddhi achieved at such a stage which enables a person to have access to direct knowledge. Just like you cannot lift a 100 kg on chest at first visit to gym, similarly a man cannot achieve this science by default. If you lift heavy weight by jerks, it can destroy you. Similarly, many people are indeed intuitive where their mind is not strongly developed to accomodate that intuition and often gets distorted by chaos of the conditioned and uncontrolled mind and hence attachment to such intuition can make them look like mad! Thus Veda is indeed written by humans but not a human level rather at a non-human or super-human level of awareness. This nullifies the lowly argument whether it is written by human or a "God". Therefore, it is not necessary for one to know sanskrit or Veda. The path of karma-Yoga (perfection in actions), bhakti-yog (perfection in devotion and surrender of ego) and gyaan-yog (perfection of knowledge) seem different but lead to the same destiny!
> 
> Words are themselves a limitation and so is the mind. But, IMO, Sanskrit is the perfect language which can incorporate this science in closest way as possible.
> 
> ...



This is perhaps like the chicken and egg scenario. Does the theory of a higher consciousness exist because of the vedas, or do they exist because a higher consciousness does. In your case I would say it is certainly the idea of a higher consciousness that exists because of the vedas. You may have thought one way and then been inducted into this belief by someone at some point in time and your reading of the vedas has made you believe in this. How do we know what was the case when they were written?

As for need to not know Sanskrit or the vedas, that’s exactly my point. It’s irrelevant because of the fact that people today know and understand much more now, There is a thirst for knowledge in humans, and we now have more knowledge than any human can every incorporate in a lifetime. No one needs the vedas to think, and no one needs them to realise that doing good is good, for example. The average educated mind is open to knowledge, but needs proof, and thus knowledge that requires jumps of faith do not fit. Just as there’s nothing wrong with someone being a day dreamer and contemplating the “meaning of life”, there’s nothing wrong with being an observational and proof based society using modern science to understand the world around us. It’s perfectly ok to read them and make observations, but not ok to claim that it is the only path to enlightenment. 

Modern science in fact is fascinated by the human brain, it’s why everything around us exists. Psychology is the study of the functioning, and we even have brain surgery. There are enough and more research projects dedicated to trying to understand the brain and what makes us tick and think. There is no aspect of the world around us or us ourselves that is being ignored, and even the abstract, out of body experiences, and such are being looked at and logical answers sought. The difference is that the findings are documented, published, and make no major assumptions based on religious bias. A Muslim-born scientist won’t try and draw parallels to the Quran, neither will a Christian or Hindu scientist do that. With modern science, religions are left at home, and purely fact and findings are the basis of conclusions. And every conclusion is challengeable and verifiable as well. 

This is so much better for society as a whole, because it unites rather than divides, unlike popular religions. It’s evolution to become more civilised and less divisive, and it’s exactly what’s happening. Whether anyone loves it or hates it, it will happen eventually, because it’s the only way for humanity to survive and evolve. There is no choice in the matter, and thus again, my comment about relevance.




mediator said:


> You got my logic all wrong. What would you call the shape of the Sun during solarwinds, Sunpots etc? Even a spheroid has a shape, but something which changes its shape all time due to increasing and decreasing flames cannot be said to have a "definite shape". How can that which is ever changing, according to the lower consciousness of sense, be called as having a definite shape?
> 
> Again, I'm talking about dynamism for nothing in the material world is "static".
> 
> Again you did not read my post properly. Tell me if the Marijuana smokers, drug addicts can control their mind or body under its effect? Do you really think Marijuana, smoking, drug-addiction "increases" life? The very concept of higher consciousness is based on detachment whereas the drug addiction is based on attachment to the sense-object! Moreover, a yogi who shows attachment to material pleasures like "Marijuana,smoking, drugs etc" is not really a Yogi in its basic definition. So I can only request you to not be fooled by the names/tags or what a person calls himself. Transcend to the essence, is the only thing I can request you.



By that logic the earth has no shape because the tides move across its surface, or when a volcano erupts. The sun is a spheroid, and a solar flare is merely some of its mass and energy being ejected. It’s like saying someone is not a vegetarian because they have incisors, from a time when their ancestors ate meat. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, swims like a duck, then it’s probably a duck. Every human is not human by your logic, and nothing binds us together because if we focus only on flaws or differences, then there is no humanity and no race, and no relation to one another. We’d have 7 billion different human species living here.

If you fill a bucket, and remove 1 drop with an eye dropper, does it stop being “a bucket of water”? Is it a bucket of water minus one drop? Of course you can argue for or against this point depending on how anal you want to be – and modern scientists would probably support the more exact 7.99999999999872568765574568765 litres theory (one drop less), but it’s pointless unless you’re trying to explain something related. For all purposes, the sun is a spheroid and is that way because of its gravity pulling all of the plasma into that shape. Does saying it’s a spheroid automatically rule out solar flares and boiling plasma on its surface? Of course not.

Based on my experiences, yes, marijuana smokers can control their body better sometimes than sober people. Marijuana also gives increased focus. I know guitarists who focus so well that they can play complicated pieces only when high, or certainly make less mistakes when high. It makes their fingers flow smoother, reduces cramps and basically takes away other distractions.

Detachment is also subjective. Detachment from what? If it’s detachment from the outside world, sure, drugs do that as well as meditation. In fact, a drunkard is even detached from himself and his own senses. Many believe a drunkard is the only completely truthful person of all, because all his senses are dulled. There’s no more filter, and thus people also believe that a person’s true nature comes out when they’re drunk. I know of women who have encouraged their boyfriend to get totally drunk, to see what his character is before marrying him, because if he’s a nice guy when he’s drunk, then he will be the same or better when sober.

As for prolonging life, of course it doesn’t, but then some say overthinking things can do the same and give you an aneurism. No proof of this of course, but I merely mentioned it because so many people use drugs to get to the state you speak of, and my logical way of looking at it is if it’s artificially reproducible, then it can be studied, and also explained.




mediator said:


> A person who seeks interest in technology will indeed gain knowledge of it and what is available in terms of technology. It is as simple as that! You don't have to "believe" (like you assume) in the science of consciousness here. It is inherent to you! Similarly, one who seeks the highest does not need to read Veda, but simply genuinely seek it and the path shall reveal itself in time!
> 
> Either you can tune guitar in different ways and fail just to find the 1000th time about the best tuning or instead have a prior guidance about it. Either you can have a permutation and combination of different frets to fail and find the 1000th time about the correct chords or instead a have prior guidance about it. Similarly either you can seek and fail 1000 times to find the perfect procedure or have a prior guidance about it. So yes, your own inner consciousness can reveal different paths and optimize after sometime, or you can have a guidance from RigVeda, Upanishads, Gita and Tantras.
> 
> It seems you still did not read the "The Colloquy of Indra and Agastya" from "Secret of Veda by Aurobindo" (Refer page 265) that I requested you to read. I request you again to read it => *www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/downloadpdf.php?id=30‎



Agreed totally. If someone is looking for that experience, I am sure the vedas will give it to him / her. I have no problem with the vedas as I have said before. I believe history should be kept alive, because you never know when it will inspire something. I don’t think it’s for the masses, and thus do not think it’s relevant because of the language barrier and the leaps of faith required. However I don’t agree with it being something exclusive. I think most of it can be theorised and come up with by a good thinking mind or a group of thinkers all on their own, without all of the religious connotations, and thus encourage more people from other faiths to think the same way. I also prefer to see proof before allowing myself to call something a “science”. I have no problems with beliefs, because I think everything is very belief based, including advanced modern science. First a theory comes and then it is proven or disproven. I see a quote you put out and look at it as a theory, and like any good science-minded person, I look at all the ways to disprove it, and if I cannot find any, then I will look for ways to prove it.



mediator said:


> Read the above quote again!
> If you still think that the science of consciousness, the essence of the Indian teaching, the shruties is a belief system or has anything to do with supersition etc, then I guess you have reduced all the stars of the modern science to theism.
> 
> But like I always requested, I would like you to move beyond from "who said what" and understand the shruties, not just read them, from your primary frameworks, with detachment after emptying yourself of all that of what you call as knowledge, only and only if you have a genuine interest in seeking the higher!
> ...



First of all evolution theory is not debunked, it’s merely the timelines that are being relooked at and questioned. The very Ecoli study you pointed to proved that bacteria evolved to changes in circumstances and morphed. That proves evolution, even if it questions timelines. As for anti-evolutionists, it’s not surprising to see that most of them are vedic followers, or members of religion.

The most commonly asked question is where are the “half-evolved” species. 

Well, as much as I hate posting links:

*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils

There they are.

Still don’t see how evolution is debunked. Just because a scientific theory undergoes corrections and changes doesn’t debunk it, it’s still a theory, and the closest one we’ve got to what matches all the evidence. Unless you want to say some God came down from heaven and turned all the dinosaurs into men and gave a few of them a million pages of words to remember. That I cannot prove, but hey, even that is a possibility with miniscule probability, and science will investigate it if even the slightest shred of evidence is found to support that theory. 

As for consciousness, this goes back to basic learning and understanding of intelligence. Curiosity is the hallmark of all living things, and predators such as the angler fish prey on exactly that. Even fish get curious, so it stands to reason the higher up the intelligence chain you go the more curious animals get. It culminates with us, and since we’re not created equal, some of us are more curious than others. If you look at scientific development, it’s very animal like. Just as a lion will be alert when hunting and playful after a full stomach, mankind has progressed in technology when faced with death or contentment. Every war has brought out new technologies and advancements in science as well, and every lull in between has brought out more artistic views. It’s not hard to see how the most warring of nations lead the technology world, and how at the same time the first world countries lead the breakthroughs in science. When life is good, funding for less important research is also given, and when war time approaches, anything to give you an edge over the opponent is funded.

Individual men are the same. When faced with a crunch and uncertainty, they will line up to acquire skills as we do in school, college, with friends. Anything to help us get ahead of the pack. However, when content with life, we start doodling with the abstract. Take up music, try painting, etc. All of this is an expansion of our understanding of ourselves. The delving into ones consciousness is also similar. It’s a luxury not everyone has the time for, but which some find very relaxing and enjoyable. It also gives one the air of superiority to have such “high level” thoughts. It’s nothing more than human nature to want to fit in, and yet to also be an individual. We don’t want to be ostracised, but at the same time we don’t want to be ignored.

The mind is the new frontier, and many of us sit around thinking – of ways to get rich, of ways to impress chicks, of ways to impress bosses, etc. It’s mostly external, and is nothing more than a caveman flexing his muscles and showing off the mammoth he killed alone. It surely would have gotten him suitors, and felt good to be noticed. Even in the animal kingdom, suitors must distinguish themselves in some way. It’s no surprise that most of these kinds of discussions happen between men (not that women aren’t capable, they know better than to waste their time on something pointless). This is the simple reason why the quest for higher consciousness began and continues. It’s nothing more than measuring brains instead of other anatomy. Plus it also makes one feel special and feel like they are closer to god (if they’re believers). Consciousness studies are for what aim? To understand the psyche of humanity? That’s psychology and psychiatry. But who wants to be a shrink? Thus the consciousness studies must be something different. They must be something to do with understanding the universe. No wait, that’s just regular science. What about something all encompassing that explains everything and yet nothing at all because it deals totally in the abstract? Hmm.

A human brain that ponders over the vedas is also capable of being a scientist. The same brain could also bring thoughts like Gandhi, or belong to Hitler. Consciousness is nothing but a collection of experiences that cause you to think in a certain way, and had you been born a Muslim, you would never be sitting here debating the vedas, but the Quran perhaps. The same applies if you were born in Greece, or Italy, or even in a tribal village of Andaman. We are nothing but the product of our experiences, with a few chemicals and brain patterns in common and a lot of differences as well. A higher level of consciousness as you put it is only achieved when exposing one’s self to more knowledge than would be available to you or given to you as per your life. What effects those have on every individual are unique. And learning never stops, to think one has attained a higher consciousness so that knowledge just flows into a brain is again arrogance, and detrimental to learning.

As for proving that I exist, every reply to my posts that you have given prove that I indeed exist and have a thinking mind. 



mediator said:


> 1st quote -> Irrelevant where conclusion, analysis is done on a science which is totally alien to the quote owner in the context and further apples have been used to compare to oranges i.e different framework used as a standard which doesn't match!
> 
> 2nd quote -> Knowledge of the language is equally essential instead of generalizing which is done here. The only problem with sanskrit translations to English is finding the right words which can retain the original meaning in its completeness, as most Sanskrit words are an experience in themselves like Bhrama, deva, mahakaal, dharma etc which when translated to a language like English strips it of its underlying experience and hence the disconnect with the broader frameworks that Sanskrit presents! Here bhrama has been reduced to a level of Abrahamic God, further seen as isolated without knowing what the word itself means and further based on underlying ignorance of science of consciousness.



I am surprised that the vedas themselves don’t have that first quote in some form.

Is this translation not right?



> “O Indra, destroy all those lustful people behaving like birds.... angry ones; behaving like wolves.... greedy ones; behaving like vultures.... enticed ones; *behaving like owls..... arrogant ones;* behaving like eagles… and the jealous ones behaving like dogs.”
> - The Atharva Veda



Now I could go into how the owls are supposed to be the wise creatures of the woods, and calling them arrogant takes a pot shot at the very teachers who refuse to learn themselves, and then also go on and on with thousands of more examples, and throw in quotes from all religious books, a few modern quotes, and cite examples of how this also applies to the universe and how the owl is Laxmi’s vahana, and thus how the pseudo-wise are the ones who get rich, etc., but isn’t it easier to say “Arrogance leads to the end of learning”? I believe in simplicity. And the reason I say that translators (and I don’t mean between languages, I mean understanding something ancient, and applying your own current day logic to get the answers you want) see the meaning that suits them is because of life experience.

The difference with which I conduct my life is to question everything, and not just for the sake of questioning, but also offering answers if possible. And answers are usually a lot simpler than most people think. While we like to believe in the complexity of humans, it’s always the simpler more base answer that’s the correct one.

This is why when I hear pseudo-intellectual talk I like to butt in with my ignorant simplistic comments. I like throwing the simpler ideas in people’s faces. I like using fact, but I prefer to use logic more than facts. When people quote ancient texts to me, I prefer to not go the pseudo-intellectual way and imagine all of the answers of the universe in a line that’s coated with generous helpings of religious beliefs and says something as simple as “Be good to your fellow humans”, or “learning is good for you”. Of course I also have the mental capacity to go into grand theories of the magnificence of the human mind, and talk about galaxies and any idiot today can Google and include half-baked theories of someone else as their own in an argument, and try and answer all the questions of the universe, but I choose not to, and instead apply my own logic (as flawed as it may be at times) and present my view.

That’s just to give you and insight into why I reply like I do.

I also do not discount the reasons that have led to my apparent dislike for religion and all blind-faith-based followings. It’s not from following an “Abrahamic” religion as I explained earlier, I never followed any to begin with.

I grew up in Delhi and was a witness to the riots there, I saw the bomb blasts in Mumbai. I have had discussions with many religious people and always been dissatisfied. When simple logical questions bring about anger from others, you know there’s something wrong with the “facts” being stated. I have also spoken to enough pseudo-intellectuals, who try and hold their exotically gained knowledge over you like an engineer would an IIT degree in India. However, ask them questions, and you always get vague answers. Ask for specifics and proof, and you’re told that the problem lies in your own understanding or lack of “culture” or “knowledge”. This drove me towards not being a pseudo-intellectual trying to hang “culture” over another’s head like an IIT degree. I’d rather be the simple fool that asks the questions of logic, because the world understands logic, and it’s the only global language. If a = b and b = c, then a = c.

At worst a science teacher would call you ignorant and proceed to try and enlighten you (as you tried mediator, but failed because either I’m just too ignorant, or you cannot find enough logical and factual basis to convince my lower consciousness). Still, my suggestion to anyone reading this would be to apply your logic, ask a question, and not worry about being made to look like a fool. Better a fool than a blind believer. And this applies to science as well, not just religions.


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## rhitwick (Sep 10, 2013)

^someone fix that double post, please


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## dashing.sujay (Sep 10, 2013)

^even vB failed to take that as a single post due to it's length lol


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## Nerevarine (Sep 10, 2013)

Mother of God, that is a long post


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## ¶§Ç (Sep 10, 2013)

Thumbs Up for the long Post ...

and I wish there are some (no.. a lot) ppl who didnt read that post


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 10, 2013)

> Probability is built up based on evidence, and mathematics. If I told you that I would pay you Rs 1 lakh salary per month, and then gave you 200 x 10 rupee notes, you would fight with me. You wouldn’t let me get away with any “theory” of mine that explained to you that the amount of meaningless atoms in the 2,000 I gave you were identical to the other bundle of Rs 100 x 1000 that I have with me as well.


 *a very apt reply to those pseudo-intellectuals who see quantum mechanics differential equations in vedas.*


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## Anorion (Sep 10, 2013)

mediator said:


> What exactly are we trying to prove then? What is yours, Can you identify the atoms that are yours? Is your mind even registered to work at micro and the macro, subtler than the subtlest and larger than the largest of what is known?
> 
> 
> Knowing here, exists at a different levels of consciousness. I just gave the example at the lowest level of consciousness i.e material play!



well then, the other examples are immaterial

science actually enables us to go micro and macro. you suspect a very earthly cycle of atoms. when science can show that it is an interstellar cycle. 



> Every breath you take contains atoms forged in the blistering furnaces deep inside stars. Every flower you pick contains atoms blasted into space by stellar explosions that blazed brighter than a billion suns. Every book you read contains atoms blown across unimaginable gulfs of space and time by the wind between the stars.
> 
> If the atoms that make up the world around us could tell their stories, each and every one of them would sing a tale to dwarf the greatest epics of literature. From carbon, baked in bloated red giants - stars so enormous they could swallow a million suns - to uranium, cooked in supernova explosions - just about the most violent cataclysms in all creation. From boron, generated in atom-crunching collisions in the deep-freeze of interstellar space, to helium, forged in the hellish first few minutes of the big bang itself.
> 
> The iron in your blood, the calcium in your bones, the oxygen that fills your lungs each time you take a breath - all were baked in fiery ovens deep within stars and blown into space when those stars grew old, and perished. Every one of us is a memorial to long-dead stars. Every one of us was quite literally made in heaven.



from The Magic Furnace by Marcus Chown


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## Raaabo (Sep 10, 2013)

Sorry for the double post!



Anorion said:


> well then, the other examples are immaterial
> 
> science actually enables us to go micro and macro. you suspect a very earthly cycle of atoms. when science can show that it is an interstellar cycle.



But importantly, never losing sight of the physical world as we see it, and trying to explain it at all levels. Even if it takes leaps of faith just as often... those are merely for direction, and even proving a direction conclusively wrong is cause for celebration.



¶§Ç said:


> Thumbs Up for the long Post ...
> 
> and I wish there are some (no.. a lot) ppl who didnt read that post



I have no doubt that many will not, and with good reason. You don't have to worry about more coming your way, as I have other stuff to write, and a life to get on with.


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## Faun (Sep 10, 2013)

Anorion said:


> from The Magic Furnace by Marcus Chown



That was profound...dude


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## Mr.Kickass (Sep 10, 2013)

Raaabo said:


> Exactly my point. We call it "East" but it's just a direction. And yes, directions exist - you yourself are trying to move "closer" to understanding your consciousness. This is a direction. According to you I am moving away, but that is also a direction.
> 
> I keep hearing from people who have existential crises apparently! How do I know it's you replying? The atoms of your hand yesterday were not the same as they are today. Some of your brain cells died from yesterday, thus it is not you anymore, and thus this conversation was over before it even began. We might all be living in Brahma's dreams, or maybe our entire Milky Way galaxy is just the dirt in his left foot's little toenail... Consciousness is not the forever doubting of one's existence. As the latin saying goes, I think, therefore I am. Also, I think differently than you, therefore I am not you. I can be a part of groups, a part of humanity, a tiny atom of the universe, but I am me. I think for myself, and do not blindly just follow a doctrine. Apparently you attempt to do the same thing, but the difference is, believing. I absorb all I can, just as you do, but I believe nothing until it is logical, free from mysticism, and is provable. It doesn't have to be the popular opinion or the right one, it just has to make sense, and be based in fact, and not fiction. Why stop at the vedas, there are some really interesting science fiction books written by Asimov, Clarke, Heinlin and the likes, they also question a lot of things and they do it in the future.
> 
> ...



*tl;dr*

Forgive me, but...

*i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/316/462/a22.gif


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## rhitwick (Sep 10, 2013)

^Hey, stop trolling.


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## Faun (Sep 10, 2013)

^^more like, these memes are old as fossils.


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## Raaabo (Sep 10, 2013)

Mr.Kickass said:


> *tl;dr*
> 
> Forgive me, but...



Ahh but the real question is, does god have a mother?

And if god created everything, who created god? Since creationism believes that nothing can just be created out of thin air, or nothingness...

I prefer the more scientific explanation of, "5|-|17 happens. Deal with it!"


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## theserpent (Sep 10, 2013)

Raaabo said:


> *Ahh but the real question is, does god have a mother?
> 
> And if god created everything, who created god?* Since creationism believes that nothing can just be created out of thin air, or nothingness...
> 
> I prefer the more scientific explanation of, "5|-|17 happens. Deal with it!"



Exactly my point of View.
In my opinion,We might actually just be some aliens,who came to earth  Is this even possible? Maybe we crashed into earth,and we killed all the dinosaurs


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## BombayBoy (Sep 10, 2013)

We are a creation of a huge 3D printer of someone out there 

So what do our intellectuals say on the situation in Syria?


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## Hrishi (Sep 11, 2013)

theserpent said:


> Exactly my point of View.
> In my opinion,We might actually just be some aliens,who came to earth  Is this even possible? *Maybe we crashed into earth,and we killed all the dinosaurs*


Are you that heavy ?? 

Is there any theory that supports how something can be created out of nothingness ??
It bends the rules of our general Physics , right ?? But for anything to be created there must be something and that something can not be created on its own.
Sort of paradox , maybe our Modern science doesn't holds an appropriate answer to it , but I guess in future our future generation will find some more clearer explanation.

@mediator , I have a simple question I would like to know the answer to .

Does Vedas provide logic and reasons for everything it says ??
For example , it's mentioned that in past we had the sort of techonlogy that facilitated the King of Lanka "Raven" to literally fly in air . Is there any explanation supporting the facts and working of that technology in the documents? 

It's mentioned that people back in those times used to perform telepathetic communication  but are there any documents supporting how that was achieved ?


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## dashing.sujay (Sep 11, 2013)

Once I was having a general discussion about PubAd (public administration) with one of my senior, who has cleared IAS prelims couple of times (including current) and now preparing for mains, he told me a very simple but very true fact.

He said - "All the decisions (all means ALL), are "politically" motivated, not by ground reality or the actual need." There is a lot of depth in this statement, and the more I ponder over it, the more I feel sad.


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## Raaabo (Sep 11, 2013)

Rishi. said:


> Is there any theory that supports how something can be created out of nothingness ??



The Big Bang theory - but it's as much belief as saying God created everything. Sure there are clues such as all the galaxies moving away from one another, and the expansion of the universe - expansion implies direction of motion away from something, and when we look at that place were moving away from we find new stars being born, but "new" is relative, as some are already millions of years old, it's just light from a million years ago reaching us... It's all fascinating and wondrous, and I completely understand why it's just so much easier to make as assumption of a grand plan at work, which very well might be the final truth. Perhaps our whole universe is nothing but a culture sample on some extra dimensional doctor's lab table. Or perhaps we're just a fluke, given all of the billions of worlds and the billions of permutations of planets possible, maybe a few developed life, just by blind chance. I'd just rather we focus on going out there and finding answers, rather than sitting here coming up with satisfactory answers. Satisfaction is dangerous, it feels good, but it makes you lazy and content, and we need hunger to get answers.

Here's another interesting theory... Do the bacteria in our Petri dishes worship the all powerful lord who gave them this fertile habitat they live in and prosper on? Do they look upwards and wonder what all those lights are? Are they making plans to go out there and find others like them to try and find answers to their questions? 

There are tonnes of people who spend their entire lives on trying to find these answers - just by thinking about them, or by trying to find hard evidence to support a theory, and then try to make it a fact. Nothing wrong with either way of doing things, but were alive and populating this planet because of the latter type of people. Everyone's important in their own place. 

For those of you know know what it means, I like to think of myself as a Moralist, Rationalist, Empiricist, Sceptical yet Logical Philosopher. And no I don't have airs about that, because all that crap really just means I believe in things that can be measured, and even try and measure the abstract concepts with logic, and yet also believe in being a good human. Honestly, I think that there are more of us than we ever thought before, because I see a hell of a lot of them right here on this forum.


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## Hrishi (Sep 11, 2013)

Raaabo said:


> The Big Bang theory - but it's as much belief as saying God created everything. Sure there are clues such as all the galaxies moving away from one another, and the expansion of the universe - expansion implies direction of motion away from something, and when we look at that place were moving away from we find new stars being born, but "new" is relative, as some are already millions of years old, it's just light from a million years ago reaching us... It's all fascinating and wondrous, and I completely understand why it's just so much easier to make as assumption of a grand plan at work, which very well might be the final truth. Perhaps our whole universe is nothing but a culture sample on some extra dimensional doctor's lab table. Or perhaps we're just a fluke, given all of the billions of worlds and the billions of permutations of planets possible, maybe a few developed life, just by blind chance. I'd just rather we focus on going out there and finding answers, rather than sitting here coming up with satisfactory answers. Satisfaction is dangerous, it feels good, but it makes you lazy and content, and we need hunger to get answers.



The myths are not based on any sort of evidence instead they rely on belief , whereas Hypothesis are a part of science which relies partly on explanation (based on similiar instances) and also has evidence to support the claims and bring the pieces of maze together.

Though you believe that saying there was a Big-Bang is quite similiar to saying God exists but I feel that Big-Bang is more of a scientific Hypothesis whereas God is a myth or belief to support ansers for questions and riddles to which science hasn't found any reasonable explanation yet.

*Depends on how you define "God".


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## mediator (Sep 11, 2013)

raaabo said:
			
		

> I keep hearing from people who have existential crises apparently! How do I know it's you replying? The atoms of your hand yesterday were not the same as they are today. Some of your brain cells died from yesterday, thus it is not you anymore, and thus this conversation was over before it even began. We might all be living in Brahma's dreams, or maybe our entire Milky Way galaxy is just the dirt in his left foot's little toenail... Consciousness is not the forever doubting of one's existence. As the latin saying goes, I think, therefore I am. Also, I think differently than you, therefore I am not you. I can be a part of groups, a part of humanity, a tiny atom of the universe, but I am me. I think for myself, and do not blindly just follow a doctrine. Apparently you attempt to do the same thing, but the difference is, believing. I absorb all I can, just as you do, but I believe nothing until it is logical, free from mysticism, and is provable. It doesn't have to be the popular opinion or the right one, it just has to make sense, and be based in fact, and not fiction. Why stop at the vedas, there are some really interesting science fiction books written by Asimov, Clarke, Heinlin and the likes, they also question a lot of things and they do it in the future.
> 
> 
> You have totally missed or sidestepped my point of view, either because you didn't understand it or it was inconvenient to take on. I accept the premise that what the vedas contain is possible as a teaching of understanding one’s self better, or maybe it was just stuff people talked about because they had no idiot politicians to laugh about. The difference is I also read a lot of things, and I don't limit myself to reading what I presuppose is true. This is led me to read psychology as well, and my experiences with thousands of humans has also given me my own insight into the way people think and act.


The context you are trying to present revolves only around the analysis and research in the physical domain and for that matter you have unknowingly presented a paradox in the process of the reasoning. If the whirpool, the tornado of the ever changing atoms which present an "image" of raaabo to my lower conscious frameworks i.e senses and the mind, the light from which was received some nano-seconds in the past, then how can that perceived image alone be "measurable, verifiable and provable"?


Like I asked, which was ignored, what are we trying to prove here? The subject that we are trying to prove has become the past at the very moment of our analysis, let alone conclusions. If we apply Heisenberg's uncertainty principle to it, then it becomes even more difficult to prove your own existence. The moment I apply any source of energy to measure or verify the ever changing whirpool of atoms in an illusory shape of Raaabo, in the sense of dynamism, then can I really measure you, or verify or prove you?


The irony hence presented is a subject of unverifiable, unproven, unmeasured essence called Raaabo is trying to analyze the world where he percieve everything as a belief, yet seeks permanence in the chaotic dynamism. 










			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> And yes, I am questioning them, exactly as you want people to. I have read a little of it, and *I have an interest in it*. Since I found nothing great in them, whatever little bits I read, and yet others swear by them, *my interest is based on what they see in it that I didn't,* and unlike most others, I do not take this for sure as a failing of myself, but I look at it that it may be a failing in myself, or it may be a failing of the other people. I just present both sides of the coin openly.


Bhakti yog, explained by Gita as well, is an art of perfection of listening/devotion/surrender. It is not the bhakti you see on TV shows or temples where people are busy ringing the temple bells or putting sweets in front of the idols. Bhakti essentially means devotion or surrender to that which you seek, a higher art or science. For a guitarist, his bhakti lies in practicing devotedly, a surrender of ego, where the person "does" withhout a sense of "I" for in the moment of that devotion, he cannot think of anything else, not even himself. The same bhakti can be seen in many students one day before exams, where they don't even listen to their hunger and thirst, let alone a sense of "I".


From your post, it is clear enough that your interest is not genuine for your interest is "based on what they see in it that you didn't". For one who truly seeks does not care about others, a competition from them or what they found that you didn't. Many people take up arts, not because arts is a fashion, but because arts is their nature. Similarly, some take music, not because music is in fashion, but music is what resonates in their inner being. Their interest is not based on what other see in it that they didn't!




			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> I agree people should understand, but *I do not agree that everyone has to "experience" everything in order to move forwards.* If that was the case, we'd all be hunters and gatherers, never sharing knowledge with one another, because hey, you need to figure it out yourself. If every living human had to learn and experiment and properly understand every little bit of basic science, we'd go back to prehistoric times.


The evolution in this adventure, the rise in consciousness is something that happens naturally not because you want it and hence for that matter, everyone dwells at various levels of consciousness. Some at low and some at high depending of various factors, perhaps inborn or upbringing, parents, teacher or guidance from the shruties or may be "few good quotes", tragedies in life etc.


You can read it as much as you want. It is not guaranteed that something will stir in youu until and unless there is a deep/genuine sense of seeking. That bhakti will not come just because I debated or you want it!






			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> *And yes, I question "higher", not because you say it, but because the vedas do. I know you are just saying what they do, whereas I am questioning the very basis of higher and lower when it comes to knowledge and service. This is why the caste system arose, and I don't think the people who pick up my garbage deserve any less respect that me.* Skills are one thing, a craftsman who can make something others can't deserves to demand a special price for his handiwork, and thus perhaps salaries of the garbage man would be lower than people who are on this forum, but I am sure he also some knowledge that others can learn from. I have no doubt about complexities of things being called further studies, or specialisation, however, it still seems elitist to me to call the study of one's own thoughts "higher" than other sciences. A rocket engineer at NASA who spent most of his life studying something is certainly achieved a "higher" level of specialisation than me, but just because I sit about pondering why people act the way they do, and if I claim to be reading the vedas, saying that I am on a "higher" plane of consciousness is just narcissistic to me.


Is it any different than the atheists condescending on the theists and promoting themselves to be "better" and tagging themselves as "scientific" just because they can name a few science theories? Is it any different than the terms like theism and atheism having any basis at all? If you go by the mentality of people, the herd instinct which judges instead of understanding, then ofcourse there is no difference in the class system/varna giving rise to cast and the workings of modern science giving rise to atheism and theism and underlying saddism and superiority complex. But if you go by the "essence", the genuine seeking of the answers, then varna exists and so does a scientist! In that case, a brahmin exists because of his nature and work and so a does a scientist and not because they want to call themselves so out of some fashion or saddism.


All the limbs of the varnashram are equal FYI. Brahminism which started during early ADs was just a distortion of Vedic literature where Veda was reduced to a subject of attachment and Brahmin/Brahman a higher essence of living. 


Indeed, the consciousness of the brahmin by his own nature i.e the very definition of consciousness itself, is bound to be higher than the rest. But equality here is subjected to the physical world, living, right on the elements of the nature and hence,


Only those who see with equal vision the Ultimate Truth in a brahman endowed with Vedic knowledge and humility, in a cow, in an elephant, in a dog and in the lower animal eating members of humanity are learned in genuine wisdom. (Bg 5.18)


Just like the experience of your father and mother on the matters of life is "higher" than you, but in terms of living, as citizens of the country etc you, your father, mother, me etc are all equally inclined. Naturally, the NASA engineer who spent years in a specialization is bound to have "higher" level of specialization and wisdom than you. Is "higher" a condescending word here?


Similarly, the science of consciousness revolves around knowing the absolute truth, which can be called by any name. Like discussed in detail, it is a practice (which is inborn), a science of transcending beyond the limited frameworks of your body or expanding your consciousness or making your mind completely still in other words to transcend from this world of dynamism to permanence, to the static where one can experience "nothing" yet everything, subtler than the subtlest yet larger than the largest where infinite paradoxes merge into the reality of the absolute truth which beyond that, the lower level of consciousness which is responsible for the cause and effect of those paradoxes. Like I said earlier you may read chapter 7 of Gita on that matter.




			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> Anyway, as you say, question the vedas, and I am doing exactly that. They lived in an age when technology was non-existent, and the skills they had were usually all pretty equal. There were some special aspects of skills, sure, but basically everyone knew how to farm, to make curd or lassi from milk, all women knew how to cook something, all men knew about tobacco, or alcohol. All tended to cows and goats, all knew how to milk them. The hunters knew how to hunt (and yes there were hunters back then). Even the scientists were busy plotting stars and their movement, but some people decided to "interpret" the meaning of everything. There was superstition back then also, as is evident form the fire rituals, the sacrifices, or the rain dancers, shamen, whatever you want to call them. There’s no surprise that it was the religious leaders who held the answers to everything. In every uneducated group of villagers you will find one who others follow because he gives them answers they can understand. This is basic human tendency to try and be in the limelight and get power.


Ofcourse, superstition is bound to exist in all ages for the nature has its different and infinite manifestations where all the people are not the same! For me Evolution and Big-Bang are the greatest superstition of the modern times where the concepts of mutation and adaptation have been used to conclude something unimaginable.


So we found different varieties of fossils and made an assumption that "evolution happened"? A land species which looked similar in structure to the air one and hey, we found a missing link? When was the first flight from land to air evolution happened? Is that recorded or an assumption connoting a time scale? Is that measurable, verifiable and proven? If thats the case, then perhaps humans should have evolved to be resistant to "mosquito bites" alone or does mutation, adaptation and survival of the fittest are completely silent on the diseases caused by food habits, deficiency of vitamins, minerals, protiens etc, heat, cold, insect bites etc? There are many other factors which can be put and are not really registered in the dictionary of mutation, adaption and the survival of the fittest.


And so the big-bang happened. What was before that t=0? Where did that concentrated chunk of matter come from? Why did it concentrate in the first place? Remember, the "mysterious dark energy" which is trying to "explain" the faster expanding universe is contrary to the "contracting universe" side of the theory! This is what I call a research work, analogous to sample testing in marketing and not really a science! You observe and you "assume and make conclusions" and when those conclusions don't fit in the newly revealed play of Shakti, you do your homework again and make new "conclusions and assumptions" telling others "This is how modern science progresses"!




My simple question to you : First, it was assumed that there is "contracting and expanding" universe. Now when universe is observed to be expanding, they deduce something called "dark energy" and used scientific words like "mysterious" to explain it. What is the guarantee that this universe will continue to expand even faster? Suppose by any chance a deceleration is observed, are we going to rip off the "dark energy" and go back to "contracting universe" or have a pudding of both?






			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> As you will have seen from all around you, *as true scientific knowledge increases, superstitions decrease.* Of course it's been put into our psyche by thousands of years of "idle gossip" by people who do not understand - and thus even today if you walk out of your house and a black cat crosses your path you might stop for a second, then shake your head and go along your way. Many will not even do that or notice even – and still others like me will insist on having a black cat as a pet, which I do. If i see a ladder, I make it a point to walk under it. It’s just my way of experimenting with supposed superstitions.


Not really. For me the so called intellectuals who fashionably tag themselves as atheists are the biggest modern day "superstition mongers" for a true scientific mind would not really tag himself and narrow to the usage of that limited context and its narrow frameworks. Superstition existed back then as well, and even now. The difference being that today the superstition exists in a socially accepted form of schizophrenia wearing a cloak of modernism, calling itself scientific and few terms like atheism which sound fashionable and appealing to the modern mind!


Just like calling oneself as Vedic was fashionable back then, today it is like calling oneself as "scientific or atheist or whatever fancy words the modern mind wants". Hence, back then, the cast system arose with surnames like dwivedi (knower of two vedas), trivedi (knower of three veda), chaturvedi (knower of 4 vedas). Back then, it was an attachment to a concept because people praised those who really knew Veda or the science of consciousness, just like how most of the atheists I see follow modern day scientists blindly! 


Like I said, the science of consciousness or for that matter science alone cannot be realized by tagging yourself scientific/atheist/vedic etc. It happens naturally for one who genuinely seeks!   






			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> Again, I do not disagree with you since I haven’t been able to meditate and lose myself like others claim to have done. I accept that this is perhaps the *weakness of my own mind. Will you accept that perhaps it is the weakness of yours that allows you to achieve this?* Like I said, many sadhus I have met who can read and quote from the vedas from memory, also say that marijuana gives the same effect. So is meditating a natural way of getting high?
> 
> 
> Do you really need to lose consciousness before you can appreciate it? Traditionally, we make fun of those who cannot appreciate what they have until they lose it.


I won't really call it as a weakness of your mind, but simply lack of interest. One who has a genuine interest develops a unique will as well which can take you to great heights! A person whose interest is low in archery may sound lazy or see the sun or the different surroundings, but one has a genuine interest will see the target only, unperturbed of where he stands as compared to others or what others are doing or if its too hot or cold!


But anyways, the latter part of this excerpt is again a clear example that you really haven't developed an understanding of the science of consciousness. Again, consciousness does not mean that a person who practices meditation, sleeps or loses consciousness. []


But yes, you can say meditation is a natural way of getting high in the sense of developing mind control and rising beyond, increasing body control and perfecting it, detachment of all the worldy pleasures like "marijuana" in the first place etc. Meditation is not only a technique to merge with the absolute, but also a way which enables a person to engross in the worldy actions or in the material play at physical/material level yet untouched by its happenings at higher levels.


For the being who has conquered the mind; that beings mind is the best of friends; but for one whose mind is uncontrolled, that very mind acts as the worst of enemies. The being who has conquered the mind, transcending the dualities of cold, heat, happiness, distress, honor and dishonor is firmly established with the Ultimate Consciousness within. (BG 6.6-7)






			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> Again with grand words like essence, whereas the only effect the sun has on the universe is radiation and gravity. Sure there may be a magical bit of invisible string tying every insect, plant, human and animal to the sun, or maybe every atom of everyone, but just because there is a “possibility” doesn’t make it a “probability”. Life is probability. Why isn’t there a tribe on the moon if the sun is such a giver of life? Where are the Martians? We sit on a world that was at the right end of the probability divide, and thus life was made “possible”. Basic physics, chemistry and biology explains what holds us together. Holds all living objects together for that matter. And yes, we are able to measure and find pretty close approximates to how much a person eats a day, how much is converted to calories, how much is excreted, how many hairs fall, how much skin is turned to dust around the house, what are the chances of getting dust mites because of not cleaning. Everything is and has been studied, and you can go do it too, using simple mathematics and the powers of observation.


Do you really think that the modern science has understood "gravity" completely? Can you explain why gravity happens? Can you further explain that which enables gravity to be "measurable, provable and verifiable"? Can you further dissect those terminologies to be "measurable, provale and verifiable" and so on? Ofcourse, there is something that is binding the galaxy and univsere at large. You can call it gravity according to the terminologies of modern science, a terminology at the physical domain only. Whereas is called Ritam according to the Vedic terminology which goes beyond the physical.


The usage of the word "essence" that I propose is only to make you realize "that" which is being discussed and hence the understanding/transcending beyond the attachment to "what" it is being called and "how" it is being percieved!


Like I discussed before, "physically" you were not the same 5/10/15 years ago in terms of shape,size,appearance etc, chemically you lose atoms (exhale,sweat,excretion etc) and gain atoms (inhale, drinking, eating etc), mentally (changing thoughts, wisdom, emotions etc). So do you really think basic physics, chemistry etc explain everything or perhaps present more questions that make it difficult to explain everything? I can only sense a generalization again with the phrase "everything is and has been studied" in a universe which analyzed in the limitedness of what is called as "observable univsere".


I can use simple mathematics and find that if I keep dividing 1 again and again, it will still leave "something". Can the "modern science" really find the "smallest particle"? With the higher versions of microscope, even the smallest known is analyzed and then something smaller found! If everything can be explained through mathematics, then FYI, many formulae and theories break when ‘infinity’ comes into the picture. What formulae do you have for occurrence of prime numbers, random events alone? 






			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> By using your “who are you” analogy, and trying to dissolve everything into nothingness or your own quaint little description of consciousness – *if I am no one, neither are you, and neither were any of the people who wrote the vedas, and neither is Brahma or Vishnu, or Allah, or Christ, and we should all just give up right this instant and accept that we don’t exist.* Sorry, but I very much do exist, as did the people who made all the things that allow us to sometimes make silly points on this forum. As did the people who wrote down what you hold so dear, or the blogs and teachings of so many you learn from. They are all held together just as well as the Nirbhaya rapists, and our horrible politicians, and Hitler. There is no good and bad in being held together and existing, we just do. Life in abstracts can make you feel special, but eventually you wake up and smell the reality all around you.


I was not referring to a comparison. But simply asking a question as to "who exactly are you"? If you can't explain with all the modern science at your disposal, then it is still fine with me. And yes, brahma and Vishnu are no one, but simply an experience of higher reality/consciousness/truth which you can call by anyname. It doesn't matter to me!


But, it doesn't mean that we should give up and hence a point where the transcension to the higher understanding of the concepts of dharma, karma, akarma and ritam comes into the picture! 




			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> Now to the point, who told you the universe is infinite? Did you travel for an infinite time to try and reach the end at speeds greater than light and have now come back to report that it isn’t? Yes we consider what is observable, as we do in every aspect of life around us, not just the vastness of the universe. There is no point you’re making here, because this is exactly what I’ve been saying all along. Infinity is a simple way of saying “we don’t know” or “undefined” or “currently uncalculable”. I know many people like to give themselves self-importance and claim to understand infinity, but the reality is the idea of infinity is one of belief in itself.
> 
> 
> I don’t know what is beyond the edge of the universe, but I can certainly tell you that you don’t either, and neither does any living soul. Of course with everything that is unknown and unmeasurable, you will always get people jumping out and saying:
> ...


Nobody has to tell you that universe is infinite. You don't have to travel at the speed of light to find if universe is finite or infinite. You don't have to travel the whole world to seek happiness or answers to life. You can deduce it through questioning alone or a higher experience.


PAUL DEUSSEN (1845-1919), a direct disciple of Arthur Schopenhauer: "Whatever may be the discoveries of the scientific mind, none can dispute the eternal truths propounded by the Upanishads. Though they may appear as riddles, the key to solving them lies in our heart and if one were to approach them with an open mind one could secure the treasure as did the Rishis of ancient times"




I don't really understand the reason why my questions to you are being replied by you like "Hey, You don't know either", "You don't exist as well".




My question to you is a simple logic. I would like to repeat it again, since you ignored to answer it.




			
				mediator said:
			
		

> If you really think, this Universe is finite, then what is beyond this Universe? What is the shape of this finite. Is this finite rotating and revolving around something higher (lets call it X1)? What is the shape of that X1? Is that finite also rotating and revolving around something higher (lets call it X2)? Do you really think this recursive question/series is finite alone? If you have no answer to it and are waiting for "modern science" to give an answer, then I guess you are undermining your own consciousness and limiting because of an attachment to a thought that "modern science" one day will give you an answer which is again a blind-belief in modern science!
> 
> 
> Regarding time, it is relative indeed where time becomes a function of movement. The faster the movement, the lesser the time and so on. But like I have discussed before, who exactly analyzes the frameworks of time? Who causes a distinction between night and day, good and bad, small and large? Do you think the frameworks of time are the same for one who cannot see, hear, speak or touch i.e all five senses not working?
> ...


You can make a workflow diagram for an easier understanding of what I'm trying to ask you. There are two cases i.e Univser is finite or infinite. Lets us "assume" it is finite. Then my question starts : What is beyond this Universe? What is the shape of this finite. Is this finite rotating and revolving around something higher (lets call it X1)? What is the shape of that X1? Again let us assume, it is also finite and hence my next question : Is that finite also rotating and revolving around something higher (lets call it X2)? 


This is an infinite/recursive series a solution to which can never be finite and only "tends to" (read calculus) infinity. The depths cannot be analyzed.






			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> See the asking for directions analogy I gave above? Many people are taken in by “knowers” based on their surety and absolute confidence in what they “know”. Once you figure out you’re lost, what do you do? Do you keep barrelling on through the jungle looking for the spot, unfased, because the directions seemed so precise and confident, or do you stop, go back and start again.


Again an instance where you have not really understood the essence of the term "knowing". Here "knowing" does not mean over confidence or abbsolute confidence. It is more like an ability to percieve without analysing but based on subtle experiences and wisdom. Just like you "know" that you can lift a spoon and put it in your mouth does not infer to over/absolute confidence, similarly there exists "knowing" for the genuine gymmers who listen to their own body and exercise in an optimal way. Like I asked you, who can give the best advice to you regarding your own body : Your gymn trainer, a doctor, or an active and thorough listening to your own body i.e you?


Similarly, there is a knowing the arts of shaloin practioners where terminology called Qi/Chi is used. This is as I said not registered in the framworks of modern science!




			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> *As for why you lose sense of time when you sleep, this is because your conscious is resting but your sub-conscious brain is still firing. *Most of your perception and senses are controlled by the conscious side of the brain, because evolution made them more important senses to survive in tougher times. Biology 101. Yet you will also awake when refreshed, even if in a totally serene room with the perfect temperature and zero light changes. People who wake up on time everyday often wake up just before their alarms ring – and this has happened to everyone at some point, say, when you know you have a meeting you cannot miss. The brain still knows time, even if it does not scream it into your conscious memory as it would a waking thought. Again, this is another example of consciousness, not something higher than it. Unconsciousness is actually “lower”, which is why you never get anything done when sleeping, and why most people die in their sleep. Rest modes are needed, but not productive, and there’s nothing higher about a dream state, merely different, and in some ways lower.


I can now see a person who has doubts about the science of consciousness giving replies and answers based on "consciousness" as coined by modern psychology. What exactly is sub-consciouss and unconscious? Do you think that these, with addition to thoughts and intelligence, are explained by modern science i.e "verifiable, proven and measurable"?


How will you know what is light and dark, if you lived in either darkness or light for your whole life? How'd you know what is happiness or sadness if you remained on a static scale of either percieved happiness or sadness. Similarly, how'd you realize what is time if the frameworks that enabled a measure, a relativity did not exist like the 5 senses? When you were born, did you really have a sense of time and its individual units as taught by the external world? Where did this understanding of time come from?




			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> Again, sorry, *but I see no Brahman or Brahma around me anywhere. This is pure fiction*, and about as believable to me as it is to you when someone says Allah created the universe. *If so, then why can’t Allah just be a translation of the word Brahma / Brahman?* In that case just as every Hindu has gone off on the wrong path according to you, so has every Muslim, and they are equally right and wrong in their own ways. And the big bang is a “theory” no one calls it fact, not even its most staunch believers or the people working in that direction. Again, probability and possibility. It could be possible that there is an entity or force called Brahman /Brahma that acts the very way you describe it, and it’s also possible that there isn’t. Probability is built up based on evidence, and mathematics. If I told you that I would pay you Rs 1 lakh salary per month, and then gave you 200 x 10 rupee notes, you would fight with me. You wouldn’t let me get away with any “theory” of mine that explained to you that the amount of meaningless atoms in the 2,000 I gave you were identical to the other bundle of Rs 100 x 1000 that I have with me as well. It’s all the same in some ways, but it’s all very different in the ways that matter.
> 
> 
> Like I have said from the very beginning of this discussion, even science has beliefs. I have always refuted the use of the words “know” or “knowing” when you use them, and god knows how many times I have use quotes to highlight “belief” in my replies. I am not the one saying science “knows” everything. I merely state that logic and mathematics is used there and thus the probability of it coming up with the right answer eventually is a lot higher.
> ...


Again an example, where the works and study on consciousness have been percieved from abrahamic frameworks and narrowed to it. Brahma is similar to matter and energy. I don't know how many times I must have put it already across this board.


If you don't see matter and energy around you, in you, in the food you eat, in the output of the process of the food you eat and treat it as a friction, then debate has no meaning. Anyways, here to repeat it for the umpteenth time.




			
				bhagvad_gita said:
			
		

> When a man liberated, free from attachment, with his mind, heart and spirit firmly founded in self-knowledge, does works as sacrifice, all his work is dissolved. *Brahman is the giving, Brahman is the food-offering, by Brahman it is offered into the Brahman fire, Brahman is that which is to be attained by samadhi in Brahman-action. ( BG 4.23-24)*




Like I requested, try to understand the "essence" of brahman being put by the shruti before you use it in your own words and discuss on it.




And so I have no qualms to what you call the supreme consciousness be it brahman or Allah. But the question that you put "why can’t Allah just be a translation of the word Brahma / Brahman?" is simply a no, a negative which is because of the context, the essence that has been put by the shruties and the Quran and not because of the terminologies. Let me list a few difference, since you see no difference :


A. Rigvedic hymn of creation : Can you find such a thought in Quran or Chrisitanity? 


here was neither non-existence nor existence then.
There was neither the realm of space nor the sky which is beyond.
What stirred?
Where?
In whose protection?
Was there water, bottlemlessly deep?
There was neither death nor immortality then.
There was no distinguishing sign of night nor of day.
That One breathed, windless, by its own impulse.
Other than that there was nothing beyond.
Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning,
with no distinguishing sign, all this was water.
The life force that was covered with emptiness,
that One arose through the power of heat.
Desire came upon that One in the beginning,
that was the first seed of mind.
Poets seeking in their heart with wisdom
found the bond of existence and non-existence.
Their cord was extended across.
Was there below?
Was there above?
There were seed-placers, there were powers.
There was impulse beneath, there was giving forth above.
Who really knows?
Who will here proclaim it?
Whence was it produced?
Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?
Whence this creation has arisen
- perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not -
the One who looks down on it,
in the highest heaven, only He knows
or perhaps even He does not know.




B. A few differences : 


1) In Monotheism every thing is God's i.e “apart” from God, whereas with ultimate reality, everything is a “part” of ultimate reality.
2) In monotheism only the god as mentioned in the holy book is to be worshipped, whereas with respect to Ultimate reality, “everything that upholds life” is considered as divine. E.g air/breaths, water/space, sun/dawning of truth, fire/will, intellect-mind/indra, universe/brahma etc at physical consciousness/underyling meaning of higher consciousness
3) Monotheism forbids the chanting the “name” of some other god other than the one mentioned in their “holy book”, whereas the same ultimate reality is called by different names which concludes ultimate reality is nameless.
4) Monotheism “preaches attachment” to a particular name, a belief system, a set of DO-s and DONT-s which a person has to follow blindly. Whereas, Vedas and Upanishads speak of detachment to think objectively and gain complete knowledge.
5) Monotheistic god is “personal and the belief imposed”. He belongs to the followers of the “book”. Whereas, the nature of ultimate reality/highest level of consciousness is impersonal, formless, umanifested and unborn. It is to be known through detachment via an objective frame of mind.
6) Monotheistic god in western faiths has “a gender” and is a male. Whereas, the ultimate reality is has both male, female, neuter gender names according to its various manifestations. Its essence is beyond male, female or neutar gender.


Not woman is He, nor man either, nor yet sexless; but whatsoever body He take, that confineth & preserveth Him. (Svetasvatara Upanishad, 5.10)


Here limitations of language alone can be seen.




7) Monotheism lacks “spirit of questioning”, whereas Vedas and Upanishads speak of dharma and karma where spirit of enquiry and questioning are the basic aspects.
8) The “science of consciousness” originated from the Vedas which the modern science is researching now. Whereas, it is absent in the western faiths.
9) Friendship with the non-believer i.e one who doesn't believe in the holy book, is considered as inferior, whereas friendship itself is considered as divine as per Vedas and Upanishads.
10)Monotheism that originated in the west often finds itself in contradiction to modern science, whereas the ideas from Vedas and Upanishads are revolutionising the modern science.
Nikola Tesla used ancient Sanskrit terminology in his descriptions of natural phenomena. As early as 1891 Tesla described the universe as a kinetic system filled with energy which could be harnessed at any location. His concepts during the following years were greatly influenced by the teachings of Swami Vivekananda.
Schrodinger wrote in his book Meine Weltansicht:
“This life of yours which you are living is not merely a piece of this entire existence, but in a certain sense the whole; only this whole is not so constituted that it can be surveyed in one single glance. This, as we know, is what the Brahmins express in that sacred, mystic formula which is yet really so simple and so clear; tat tvam asi, this is you. Or, again, in such words as “I am in the east and the west, I am above and below, I am this entire world.”
[This is a reference to the Mundaka Upanishad mantra 2.2.11 ]
“All this that is in front is but Brahman, the immortal. Brahman is at the back, as also on the right and the left. It is extended above and below, too. This world is nothing but Brahman, the highest.”
Schrodinger’s influential ‘What is life? The physical aspect of the living cell & Mind and matter (1944)’ also used Vedic ideas. The book became instantly famous although it was criticized by some of its emphasis on Indian ideas. Francis Clark, the codiscoverer of the DNA code, credited this book for key insights that led him to his revolutionary discovery.
According to his biographer Walter Moore, there is a clear continuity between Schrodinger’s understanding of Vedanta and his research:
“The unity and continuity of Vedanta are reflected in the unity and continuity of wave mechanics. In 1925, the world view of physics was a model of a great machine composed of separable interacting material particles. During the next few years, Schrodinger and Heisenberg and their followers created a universe based on super-imposed inseparable waves of probability amplitudes. This new view would be entirely consistent with the Vedantic concept of All in One.”
He became a Vedantist, a Hindu, as a result of his studies in search for truth. Schrodinger kept a copy of the Hindu scriptures at his bedside. He read books on Vedas, yoga and Sankhya philosophy and he reworked them into his own words, and ultimately came to believe them. The Upanishads and the Bhagavad gita, were his favorite scriptures.
According to his biographer Moore, “His system – or that of the Upanishads – is delightful and consistent: the self and the world are one and they are all. He rejected traditional western religious beliefs (Jewish, Christian, and Islamic) not on the basis of any reasoned argument, nor even with an expression of emotional antipathy, for he loved to use religious expressions and metaphors, but simply by saying that they are naïve.


Apart of Nicolas Tesla and Scroedinger, various other scientists and philosophers have testified about the greatness of Vedas and the Upanishads.
11) The western faiths “preach conversion” of the mankind to follow the belief as prescribed in the “book”, whereas Vedas and Upanishands promote questioning (e.g “neti neti”) to experience the truth.
12) The term muslim, christian etc is mentioned in their respective “books”. But neither Buddha mention “buddhist”' or Veda or Gita mention “Hindus” or gives more importance to Hindus.






The difference can be found in clear terms! Now equate it with your understanding of Christianity alone that you put forward.






			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> You can also Google for the many more theories and findings that support it. It’s a theory, and is backed up by practical evidence. Of course it has some chinks in its armour? Maybe it wasn’t a meteorite that killed the dinosaurs, maybe it was a scale eating bacteria. Maybe climate change and the coming of the ice age caused it, and maybe a meteor killed them all like is popularly believed, or maybe all of the above. The difference between modern science is it’s trying to find this all out, would you rather take the sayings of some ancient tribe as the gospel truth? I thought the words of some such tribes based on faith were evil? How do we choose which tribe to believe?


There is a lot of "may be" in your argument, then what is the criteria of your argument that man and dinos did not walk at the same time in the past? =>  "Fossils not found"?






			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> *Where in the vedas is an explanation of matter and energy as science shows it. Where are the atomic bombs and E=MC^2. Wheres the explanation of friction, of gravity, of the solar flares you love to talk about? Is it written the sun is made of hydrogen and helium, and burns in this way, is estimated to be thus large, and has solar flares that are millions of miles long, which emit radiation, but we’re protected by the magnetic field of our earth’s iron core? Or will you now point me to a passage that says Agni gets angry from time to time, and shoots weapons at non-believers?* We can find explanations the way children (and many adults) find shapes in the clouds – in anything. People read tea leaves and read tarot cards, they find patterns in a jungle and the way flowers bloom. This is the nature of us and the world, and our understanding of it can be subjective and personal, or be all inclusive and logic based. The same logic that displays the dots just the right way on your screen so that my words are intelligible to you, and not the belief and hope that allows you to read so much more into what could just be a very simplistic statement.


This is again an example of how you are conditioned by the modern science and trying to use it as a framework or a standard to view the science propounded by the ancients with its own terminology and meaning behind. 


But still if you want to read, then read the texts of Vaisheshika, the Vishnu-Nabhi as understood by David Frawley. The science of Ayurveda revolves around Sattva, rajas, Tamas as food types and vata, pitta, kapha as body types. If I start using these terminologies then much of the modern medicine/science will be reduced to generalizations. Would that be fair?


Try to even understand the highly unscientific question you have asked yourself! I cannot really find a concept from Chinese science or accupuncture in Ayurveda as "Chinese science shows it". Similarly, I cannot really find in Vedas about concepts "as science shows it".






			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> No you’ve got me upside down. *I never said the vedas were right or wrong. I have never read them enough to know that. I specifically said they were irrelevant.*
> 
> 
> There’s a reason I said that. To start with, they require faith in “powers” that most people associate with gods. No matter how much people try and explain it all away as to what Brahma really means (which no one can be sure of anyway, since all the people who wrote it are dead, and there was no neat little stack of proofs or documentation or footnotes as is left in real science), to the world it is still faith-based idealogy.


Trust me, I'm not really interested in your judgement whether Vedas are right or wrong, but simply that you read them devotedly (let it be Upanishads if not Vedas) and understand the underlying meaning, whereas you have not even read, quoted a few verses here and there without verse number ( e.g one from atharveda where the owl is reduced literally stripping the Vedic poetry of its poetry and metaphors) to be talking and discussing on the science of consciousness.


How can you even judge it to be irrelevant when you yourself confirm "I have never read them enough to know that" ?














Anyways, this is going no where. You can continue "believing" in whatever you want.


----------



## Hrishi (Sep 11, 2013)

> And so the big-bang happened. What was before that t=0? Where did that concentrated chunk of matter come from? Why did it concentrate in the first place? Remember, the "mysterious dark energy" which is trying to "explain" the faster expanding universe is contrary to the "contracting universe" side of the theory! This is what I call a research work, analogous to sample testing in marketing and not really a science! You observe and you "assume and make conclusions" and when those conclusions don't fit in the newly revealed play of Shakti, you do your homework again and make new "conclusions and assumptions" telling others "This is how modern science progresses"!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What does your statements imply for the existence , applicability and validity of modern science ? Do you intend to say that the way modern science progresses is wrong or do you intend to say that it is right ?? If possible , answer in yes or no. I am a simple person with less preference to diplomacy.


----------



## mediator (Sep 11, 2013)

@Rishi - Your question itself stems from attachment to the modern material science which dwells in physical domain. Read Tao of Physics (Fritjof Capra), Brief History of Time By STephen Hawkings. There is a reason why the physical world said to be under Maya (does not mean unreal) for which I have argued at length. Read my replies a little more carefully and you might find an answer. Its like asking whether the Earth experiences a day or a night?


----------



## Anorion (Sep 11, 2013)

mediator said:


> So we found different varieties of fossils and made an assumption that "evolution happened"? A land species which looked similar in structure to the air one and hey, we found a missing link? When was the first flight from land to air evolution happened? Is that recorded or an assumption connoting a time scale? Is that measurable, verifiable and proven? If thats the case, then perhaps humans should have evolved to be resistant to "mosquito bites" alone



no, because the mosquito is also evolving. 



mediator said:


> Nobody has to tell you that universe is infinite. You don't have to travel at the speed of light to find if universe is finite or infinite. You don't have to travel the whole world to seek happiness or answers to life. You can deduce it through questioning alone or a higher experience.



universe is not infinite. couldn't be, or the light from all the stars would have burned our eyes out. 
by current understanding, if you go in a straight line, you don't keep going forever, you end up back where you started. most modern scientific theories cannot work in an infinite universe. universe is like screen in snake. 

have to read tao of physics again, forgot what it was about. will read right after mysteries of atlantis and practical time travel.


----------



## Raaabo (Sep 11, 2013)

I’ll try and keep this one shorter and more to the point, and I will also be more direct, but I hope you will understand my words and not take it as arrogance or rudeness, merely honesty and trying to be less verbose for the sake of others.




mediator said:


> The context you are trying to present revolves only around the analysis and research in the physical domain and for that matter you have unknowingly presented a paradox in the process of the reasoning. If the whirpool, the tornado of the ever changing atoms which present an "image" of raaabo to my lower conscious frameworks i.e senses and the mind, the light from which was received some nano-seconds in the past, then how can that perceived image alone be "measurable, verifiable and provable"?
> 
> Like I asked, which was ignored, what are we trying to prove here? The subject that we are trying to prove has become the past at the very moment of our analysis, let alone conclusions. If we apply Heisenberg's uncertainty principle to it, then it becomes even more difficult to prove your own existence. The moment I apply any source of energy to measure or verify the ever changing whirpool of atoms in an illusory shape of Raaabo, in the sense of dynamism, then can I really measure you, or verify or prove you?
> 
> The irony hence presented is a subject of unverifiable, unproven, unmeasured essence called Raaabo is trying to analyze the world where he percieve everything as a belief, yet seeks permanence in the chaotic dynamism.



There is no logic here, if everything occurs in the past, we must have already finished this debate. There is a time and place to bring in relativity. If you were travelling away from me at relativistic speeds, I’d be happy to discuss space-time with you. You’re not, and instead harping on a point which leads down a path to nowhere. Perhaps you think my concepts in space time are weak and are trying to exploit it in what you think is a duel of words. However, I should tell you that space and science-fiction and quantum theories are in fact really is my only area of interest, so it’s kind of pointless. You cannot have it both ways, either you accept the reality that you were born, grew up started thinking, started with the Vedas and then developed interesting (though perhaps sometimes flawed) ideas, or we argue existence and what we feel about it.



mediator said:


> Bhakti yog, explained by Gita as well, is an art of perfection of listening/devotion/surrender. It is not the bhakti you see on TV shows or temples where people are busy ringing the temple bells or putting sweets in front of the idols. Bhakti essentially means devotion or surrender to that which you seek, a higher art or science. For a guitarist, his bhakti lies in practicing devotedly, a surrender of ego, where the person "does" withhout a sense of "I" for in the moment of that devotion, he cannot think of anything else, not even himself. The same bhakti can be seen in many students one day before exams, where they don't even listen to their hunger and thirst, let alone a sense of "I".
> 
> From your post, it is clear enough that your interest is not genuine for your interest is "based on what they see in it that you didn't". For one who truly seeks does not care about others, a competition from them or what they found that you didn't. Many people take up arts, not because arts is a fashion, but because arts is their nature. Similarly, some take music, not because music is in fashion, but music is what resonates in their inner being. Their interest is not based on what other see in it that they didn't!



Sorry, but you just haven’t understood human psychology as is visible and displayed. Musicians love music, yes, but they practise because they want to learn everything, try new things, and be good at what they do. Seeking improvement is in fact “I”, or else musicians would be happy to sit and listen to nature and all other music made before them. At heart, we’re all creationists, and we want to do things for the “I” in us. As much as you may not want to admit it, this whole debate is both you and me trying to prove that the “I” is more knowledgeable than the “you”. There’s another clue as to whether we exist or not.

In fact all seeking of knowledge is to enhance the sense of “I”. Even seeking knowledge from the Vedas is to make “yourself” better, not the world. This is simple logic and human nature, and yet you keep sidestepping it. 




mediator said:


> The evolution in this adventure, the rise in consciousness is something that happens naturally not because you want it and hence for that matter, everyone dwells at various levels of consciousness. Some at low and some at high depending of various factors, perhaps inborn or upbringing, parents, teacher or guidance from the shruties or may be "few good quotes", tragedies in life etc.



Ah so then evolution happens?



mediator said:


> Is it any different than the atheists condescending on the theists and promoting themselves to be "better" and tagging themselves as "scientific" just because they can name a few science theories? Is it any different than the terms like theism and atheism having any basis at all? If you go by the mentality of people, the herd instinct which judges instead of understanding, then ofcourse there is no difference in the class system/varna giving rise to cast and the workings of modern science giving rise to atheism and theism and underlying saddism and superiority complex. But if you go by the "essence", the genuine seeking of the answers, then varna exists and so does a scientist! In that case, a brahmin exists because of his nature and work and so a does a scientist and not because they want to call themselves so out of some fashion or saddism.



I only stated that science is a study of what’s observable, and even it requires leaps of faith, and I am sure the Vedas do too. However, they seem to me to observe less and abstract more, and thus get called “higher consciousness”, whereas perhaps they are not, which is what science is slowly eroding away at. I never claimed that both the Vedas and sciences cannot co-exist. It’s the usurping of the Vedas by a religion that made them irrelevant to the rest of the world.



mediator said:


> Only those who see with equal vision the Ultimate Truth in a brahman endowed with Vedic knowledge and humility, in a cow, in an elephant, in a dog and in the lower animal eating members of humanity are learned in genuine wisdom. (Bg 5.18)



So already an assumption is made that animal eaters are “lower”, and it doesn’t say what this ultimate truth is… I suspect it’s the “truth” referred to is “Do it our way or else!” Though assumption could be wrong, just as the translation could be wrong.



mediator said:


> Just like the experience of your father and mother on the matters of life is "higher" than you, but in terms of living, as citizens of the country etc you, your father, mother, me etc are all equally inclined. Naturally, the NASA engineer who spent years in a specialization is bound to have "higher" level of specialization and wisdom than you. Is "higher" a condescending word here?



Not at all, in fact you’re making my point for me, I’m the one who says that a NASA engineer who builds rockets that take people into space is more attuned to the realities around us and “understands” the physics of our universe better. Yet I keep hearing about how the Vedas were so great they explained the physics of the world as well as the chemistry, the make up, and thus everything in the universe. Thus the title “higher consciousness” to those who read and understand them and practice meditation, etc. That is your belief. I believe that I can read the Vedas, extract only what I need, and not follow everything they say, and not take leaps of faith as they expect me to, and that is also very much alike the “higher consciousness” that you claim to get. I also believe that many quantum physicists have attained that higher consciousness and explained the universe without the Vedas, and some have done it with ideas from the Vedas, this makes it very easily provable that they’re not the _only_ way to a higher consciousness as you seem to portray. Also as a joke, I’d much rather fly in an aeroplane built by engineers than sadhus!



mediator said:


> Similarly, the science of consciousness revolves around knowing the absolute truth, which can be called by any name. Like discussed in detail, it is a practice (which is inborn), a science of transcending beyond the limited frameworks of your body or expanding your consciousness or making your mind completely still in other words to transcend from this world of dynamism to permanence, to the static where one can experience "nothing" yet everything, subtler than the subtlest yet larger than the largest where infinite paradoxes merge into the reality of the absolute truth which beyond that, the lower level of consciousness which is responsible for the cause and effect of those paradoxes. Like I said earlier you may read chapter 7 of Gita on that matter.



The absolute truth is what I seek, and yes I freely admit that there are some interesting thoughts in the old texts (original wisdom, not translated conveniently wisdom as on the blogs you linked to). However, the search for absolute truth also requires you to take questions that very well might suggest that perhaps your interpretations are flawed in some ways. The very first step to higher consciousness would logically be to question whether such a state exists at all, and had you done that, you would have much easier answers to share with me. However, since there are none, it makes me assume that perhaps you believe too easily in these concepts, perhaps because you are drawn in by the mysticism of the writings of others who claim to have attained this level.

Just as you have criticised other religions here of not being able to admit to flaws in their “logic”, I am doing the same for your belief system. And yes, I am the first to say that the science I hold dear does NOT know even 1/millionth of what is to be known yet, before you start questioning what I believe.



mediator said:


> Ofcourse, superstition is bound to exist in all ages for the nature has its different and infinite manifestations where all the people are not the same! For me Evolution and Big-Bang are the greatest superstition of the modern times where the concepts of mutation and adaptation have been used to conclude something unimaginable.
> 
> So we found different varieties of fossils and made an assumption that "evolution happened"? A land species which looked similar in structure to the air one and hey, we found a missing link? When was the first flight from land to air evolution happened? Is that recorded or an assumption connoting a time scale? Is that measurable, verifiable and proven? If thats the case, then perhaps humans should have evolved to be resistant to "mosquito bites" alone or does mutation, adaptation and survival of the fittest are completely silent on the diseases caused by food habits, deficiency of vitamins, minerals, protiens etc, heat, cold, insect bites etc? There are many other factors which can be put and are not really registered in the dictionary of mutation, adaption and the survival of the fittest.



To the first part, yes. It’s simple proof. It happens too often, across species lines, and that forms a pattern. Again, it’s a theory, but certainly more plausible than god created us. There are intelligent parts to the Vedas and there are superstitious and religious parts, why is it you can point out flaws in logic for everything else except that?

A mosquito net is evolution, as is the electric powered All-Out I have on in my room. Science is evolution in itself. I have no troubles with you challenging science on logic, which you attempt to do often, more power to you if you prove science wrong. Heck they’ll give you a Nobel Prize and a million USD, and now is the best time to get dollars anyway… Why are you so against people challenging the knowledge of some texts written ages ago. No offense, but despite you claiming otherwise, it sounds more and more like you believe in it most believe in their religion – with blind faith. 

I will be the first to point out that Big Bang theory is in fact a theory with some evidence, but certainly no definitive proof. Also there are more probable theories now that suggest there was no big bang. Or that it’s possible that evolution was not as per the timelines suggested, but the overwhelming proof being found cannot just be ignored just because it’s inconvenient. I am all for listening to theories as to how evolution is against the ways of nature, and something that proves how mankind has always existed in the current form. As long as there’s proof and logical data to support a claim, I am all for it. Otherwise it’s just abstract claims – even more abstract than the Big Bang Theory.



mediator said:


> And so the big-bang happened. What was before that t=0? Where did that concentrated chunk of matter come from? Why did it concentrate in the first place? Remember, the "mysterious dark energy" which is trying to "explain" the faster expanding universe is contrary to the "contracting universe" side of the theory! This is what I call a research work, analogous to sample testing in marketing and not really a science! You observe and you "assume and make conclusions" and when those conclusions don't fit in the newly revealed play of Shakti, you do your homework again and make new "conclusions and assumptions" telling others "This is how modern science progresses"!
> 
> My simple question to you : First, it was assumed that there is "contracting and expanding" universe. Now when universe is observed to be expanding, they deduce something called "dark energy" and used scientific words like "mysterious" to explain it. What is the guarantee that this universe will continue to expand even faster? Suppose by any chance a deceleration is observed, are we going to rip off the "dark energy" and go back to "contracting universe" or have a pudding of both?



Space time = 0 for the big bang theory, but only because the laws of physics break down at a singularity. Thus what existed before a singularity cannot be calculated. Even with beliefs, scientists have to be able to calculate their way back. Since they cannot calculate past the big bang, they have conveniently called space-time relative for observers. A nano second after the big bang, observation is possible, physics exists again, and space-time comes into being.

Absolute time also exists in quantum theories, which is independent of physics, and thus can go back beyond the big bang, but it is meaningless, as we have no reference frame of it. Thus it could be a trillion trillion years in absolute time, but it’s easier to say 20 billion years since the big bang. Also, I already said the big bang is a theory, and perhaps not the best fitting one with the evidence at hand.

The universe is expanding like a balloon expands when you blow air into it. Every galaxy is moving away from every other galaxy, and tracing it back brings us to some point in space where scientists assume the big bang happened. However, it doesn’t have to be a creation point. In fact other theories suggest that the universe is not infinite, and in fact space-time itself could be spherical in shape like the earth, thus you could theoretically travel across the universe to arrive back where you came from. I am aware that the Vedas suggest the universe is like an egg that’s rotating, and many physicists like to quote the Vedas here, while others point out that the model that mathematically works doesn’t rotate, and their egg theory perhaps came from seeing the solar system rather than a much higher understanding of quantum physics, since there are no colourful examples provided. If they really understood the concept, then there would have been something like “Descending from Brahma’s forehead, you can travel to the ends of the universe and find that you never moved at all” Or something that even remotely suggests that they also thought this way. It’s more likely that the text was referring to the vastness of the universe, and centering it around earth came up with the shape of the spinning egg – since all the stars seem to spin around the sky. However, what you get from the abstracts, in not what a physicist gets, and it may spark him into new theories.

Also remember, you are quoting science theories, which are basically ways of trying to understand the universe mathematically. They are theories, and no one calls them fact. Just as evolution is still a theory, despite all of the evidence in its favour. However, you not flying off the face of the earth, and why, is a fact. The same way we accurately measured the gravity of the moon just by looking at it through a telescope, and also of Mars and Venus and even Mercury, and were thus able to send probes and landers there, correctly finding the right orbit to take, the amount of rocket thrust to land on the surface. Too much thrust you take off again, too little you crash into the planet destroying everything you spent billions on… This is proof, evidence, empirical data, things you can see. Sitting in another city you can say things to me, that’s something you’re doing. I know you like to question the very existence of everything, but then why is it you do anything at all. Why did you get out of bed today? Why do you continue to breathe? Let’s move beyond the silly existential stuff and understand that you live in a physical world, and you have to accept its laws. I don’t mean the police’s laws, I mean physics, chemistry, biology, mathematics.

“What if” is a double-edged sword, so understand it cuts you as well as someone else. All of the logic science uses, it welcomes to be used against it. Every theory that’s put up is debated, and even if ALL the leading thinkers and researchers agree (rarely happens anyway) it’s still just a more plausible theory until proven with physical evidence. If a religion was running the LHC, I have no doubt they would have found something of global importance by now. However science is not afraid to say, “Hey, we tried, we spent a trillion dollars, we ran our experiments, we found nothing!” Even if it were just a belief, I’d rather believe in something like that, than something that crumbles when questioned by mere logic – which is something every human is born with. Even little children who put their fingers into a flame and get burnt never do it again, because they learn…



mediator said:


> Not really. For me the so called intellectuals who fashionably tag themselves as atheists are the biggest modern day "superstition mongers" for a true scientific mind would not really tag himself and narrow to the usage of that limited context and its narrow frameworks. Superstition existed back then as well, and even now. The difference being that today the superstition exists in a socially accepted form of schizophrenia wearing a cloak of modernism, calling itself scientific and few terms like atheism which sound fashionable and appealing to the modern mind!
> 
> Just like calling oneself as Vedic was fashionable back then, today it is like calling oneself as "scientific or atheist or whatever fancy words the modern mind wants". Hence, back then, the cast system arose with surnames like dwivedi (knower of two Vedas), trivedi (knower of three veda), chaturvedi (knower of 4 Vedas). Back then, it was an attachment to a concept because people praised those who really knew Veda or the science of consciousness, just like how most of the atheists I see follow modern day scientists blindly!



Ah I can see that the only defence you have left now is to attack the very science you were once quoting and finding parallels with in the ancient text. Look! They also said the earth was round! See how smart they were…. Has now become an entire superstition? I suppose it’s a global scale conspiracy, and Neil Armstrong was filmed in a studio in California, every government has always lied to us, and NASA is an even bigger PR machine spewing out falsehoods than NaMo’s team. You’re making this into a science vs Vedas debate, when it’s purely a question of whether “you” (mediator) are actually looking at them as a faith or as a science, and “me” (Raaabo) questioning the lack of logic in your findings… Again, I have nothing against the Vedas except my original statement of them being irrelevant to the masses now (for good) and having too much religious-like leaps of faith required for them to ever appeal to the non-hindus and scientists, thus again, making them irrelevant in a grander scheme of things. I also contest the achieving of higher consciousness itself, and even if it can be done, assuming the Vedas are the only way to do so is again belief, and reeks of a more religious than scientific bent of mind.




mediator said:


> Like I said, the science of consciousness or for that matter science alone cannot be realized by tagging yourself scientific/atheist/vedic etc. It happens naturally for one who genuinely seeks!



True knowledge is something anyone can absorb. Give them a book and if they can understand it, it’s knowledge. Teach a child on his fingers to count from 1 to 10. That’s knowledge. Teach a child a language to be able to communicate and share ideas, that’s knowledge. Explain to him why he throws a ball at 45 degrees it travels furthest, but at 30 degrees with more force it goes swifter and is a good angle for the wicket keeper to keep an eye on it all the time – that’s knowledge. Knowledge is something we can use in everyday life, to relax, to learn, to build, and yes to think. Even the Vedas are knowledge, as is Sanskrit, as are the books of all religions, not just yours. Even the thoughts of every commenter on this forum is a form of knowledge. As long as all knowledge is taken in as is, without blind belief it’s beneficial. 




mediator said:


> I won't really call it as a weakness of your mind, but simply lack of interest. One who has a genuine interest develops a unique will as well which can take you to great heights! A person whose interest is low in archery may sound lazy or see the sun or the different surroundings, but one has a genuine interest will see the target only, unperturbed of where he stands as compared to others or what others are doing or if its too hot or cold!



I absolutely agree with you 100%. I am not, have not, and never will be as well-versed as you are in the Vedas because I have not even a 1/100th the interest you have. I never claimed to have an interest in them, I have an interest in the mind, psychology, how humans think, why they believe certain things and not the other, what is this higher consciousness, why do marijuana smokers report the exact same symptoms, etc. I only offer arguments based on that interest, and have never claimed to be taking any stance but that. I also have made it clear from the beginning of this discussion that I require proof, facts and will not take anything on faith. Just as both you and me will not accept that any Abrahamic god built the universe, I also refuse to just accept that any other force called Brahma / Brahman did, and accept that humans know exactly how long he lives, because he told them!

Like I said, I have found quotes from them that make absolute and irrefutable sense to me (excepting the references to Gods). I would go as far as saying that apart from the belief and faith bits, I’m actually very close to living the way they recommend as well – except I do eat meat. I don’t believe in drugs and alcohol, though I have tried them all once or twice to see what all the fuss was about – knowledge, you see! However, I also live to learn, and hunger for more knowledge, and use logic as far as possible and try to keep subjective feelings and thoughts such as emotions out of it all…. I also accept challenges to my thinking, and try and provide a clear and precise case for my arguments when needed. I am the first to admit I am wrong when proven so.



mediator said:


> But anyways, the latter part of this excerpt is again a clear example that you really haven't developed an understanding of the science of consciousness. Again, consciousness does not mean that a person who practices meditation, sleeps or loses consciousness. []



Apart from meditation and marijuana (both of which I have tried and not liked), I also question everything around me and spend close to 4 hours a day lost in just simple thought about various things – including what I’ve read, this discussion, a news report, a book I read, etc. I find that is a way of understanding my consciousness, and improving my reasoning and thus being able to explain more of the world around me, not just to myself, but other as well. Because others often give me insights I would not gain on my own. Also I am not materialistic, certainly not overtly so, and certainly less than most would assume me to be. Yes I did go out and buy myself a guitar with a floating bridge and an effects processor (as you will see in my signature), but that’s because I wanted to enjoy my music. The same applies for my car, my home, music is very important to me. My rig is almost ancient, but as long as it functions, who cares? This is normal today, and yes I am the first one to suggest cover stories that criticise consumerism (and hurts ad revenues) my editorials are in the public domain for people to judge me on…

This biodata above I gave you is to ask one simple question. In your opinion, am I a person of “lower consciousness” just because I don’t believe everything the Vedas say? That is the only point that is really being debated here, isn’t it?



mediator said:


> For the being who has conquered the mind; that beings mind is the best of friends; but for one whose mind is uncontrolled, that very mind acts as the worst of enemies. The being who has conquered the mind, transcending the dualities of cold, heat, happiness, distress, honor and dishonor is firmly established with the Ultimate Consciousness within. (BG 6.6-7)



So if you feel nothing, you are the Ultimate Consciousness? I handle my life pretty well, but I do feel the heat and cold, does that mean if I read the Vedas I will not need an AC or a blanket for the rest of my life? If that is the case, hats off to you if you’re able to walk around in a T-shirt and shorts on a bitter cold winter morning. I will accept defeat immediately, except I will also need proof eventually of course.




mediator said:


> Do you really think that the modern science has understood "gravity" completely? Can you explain why gravity happens? Can you further explain that which enables gravity to be "measurable, provable and verifiable"? Can you further dissect those terminologies to be "measurable, provale and verifiable" and so on? Ofcourse, there is something that is binding the galaxy and univsere at large. You can call it gravity according to the terminologies of modern science, a terminology at the physical domain only. Whereas is called Ritam according to the Vedic terminology which goes beyond the physical.



Sure, but would they who wrote this be able to land a craft on Mars? Call it what you want, modern science improved on it and understood it better. Who understands rocket engines better? A guy who empathises with the rocket and talks about it being one with the universe, or a scientist who builds it? You know exactly what gravity is and how it’s described in science. The problem is if I ask you how it’s described in the Vedas, you will either drown me in links, or claim that it is a personal experience. 

I won’t even get a simple explanation like this: In the current theory, gravity is an attraction of mass, the more the mass, the more the gravity, simple, and any kid can understand it. Yes there are quantum gravitational laws, and black holes which exert so much gravity that even light cannot escape, etc.

People are free to work in the field and provide theories as well, ask questions, mathematically prove things right or wrong, etc. There are more enhanced theories of gravity, and some of them are more faith than fact for the moment, yes, but evidence is always sought before it can be an acceptable theory even, and is not taught to every kid in school. Those are things people only get into when they opt for it in higher studies.



mediator said:


> I can use simple mathematics and find that if I keep dividing 1 again and again, it will still leave "something". Can the "modern science" really find the "smallest particle"? With the higher versions of microscope, even the smallest known is analyzed and then something smaller found! If everything can be explained through mathematics, then FYI, many formulae and theories break when ‘infinity’ comes into the picture. What formulae do you have for occurrence of prime numbers, random events alone?



Yes, the operative word is “found!”. That’s my simplest answer to this.



mediator said:


> I was not referring to a comparison. But simply asking a question as to "who exactly are you"? If you can't explain with all the modern science at your disposal, then it is still fine with me. And yes, brahma and Vishnu are no one, but simply an experience of higher reality/consciousness/truth which you can call by anyname. It doesn't matter to me!
> But, it doesn't mean that we should give up and hence a point where the transcension to the higher understanding of the concepts of dharma, karma, akarma and ritam comes into the picture!
> Nobody has to tell you that universe is infinite. You don't have to travel at the speed of light to find if universe is finite or infinite. You don't have to travel the whole world to seek happiness or answers to life. You can deduce it through questioning alone or a higher experience.



I am the entity called Raaabo, who also has a much longer legal name – Robert John Sovereign-Smith. I have a birth certificate, a driver’s license, I pay taxes, I exist as any other human on this planet does, I also think, and I question. Who are you?

And yes I totally expect a definition in the abstract that tells us absolutely nothing about you.



mediator said:


> PAUL DEUSSEN (1845-1919), a direct disciple of Arthur Schopenhauer: "Whatever may be the discoveries of the scientific mind, none can dispute the eternal truths propounded by the Upanishads. Though they may appear as riddles, the key to solving them lies in our heart and if one were to approach them with an open mind one could secure the treasure as did the Rishis of ancient times"



So? If I quote Galileo would you just accept what he says? He was proven wrong on many occasions by other scientists.




mediator said:


> You can make a workflow diagram for an easier understanding of what I'm trying to ask you. There are two cases i.e Univser is finite or infinite. Lets us "assume" it is finite. Then my question starts : What is beyond this Universe? What is the shape of this finite. Is this finite rotating and revolving around something higher (lets call it X1)? What is the shape of that X1? Again let us assume, it is also finite and hence my next question : Is that finite also rotating and revolving around something higher (lets call it X2)?



“I don’t know”. As I said before. I certainly have some “beliefs” as to the shape of the universe, as do many others, as do you… but no one “knows”. It cannot be put simpler than that ever.



mediator said:


> Again an instance where you have not really understood the essence of the term "knowing". Here "knowing" does not mean over confidence or abbsolute confidence. It is more like an ability to percieve without analysing but based on subtle experiences and wisdom. Just like you "know" that you can lift a spoon and put it in your mouth does not infer to over/absolute confidence, similarly there exists "knowing" for the genuine gymmers who listen to their own body and exercise in an optimal way. Like I asked you, who can give the best advice to you regarding your own body : Your gymn trainer, a doctor, or an active and thorough listening to your own body i.e you?



*sigh*



			
				google said:
			
		

> know
> /nō/
> Verb
> Be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information.
> Have knowledge or information concerning.



And no, I would recommend a gym trainer for those looking to push the limits, or looking to really lose weight or get fit. They “know” the pitfalls of doing things wrong because they have “observed” or “seen” other people make mistakes before. That’s why all athletes and professionals have an army of trainers and doctors and nutritionists… really, this is all obvious stuff, why are we discussing this?



mediator said:


> I can now see a person who has doubts about the science of consciousness giving replies and answers based on "consciousness" as coined by modern psychology. What exactly is sub-consciouss and unconscious? Do you think that these, with addition to thoughts and intelligence, are explained by modern science i.e "verifiable, proven and measurable"?
> 
> I am not a trained psychologist. You are obviously skipping past all that I write and the examples I give. This is fair because I didn’t go back to read your science vs god debate either. But if you want the answer read my previous posts where I have explained dreams, children and how they perceive the world, etc, and also marijuana, and thus all the explanations about higher consciousness in the end sounds like a lower state of awareness, and nothing more. I also challenged the “flow of knowledge”. Sure pondering helps, and I have also explained that earlier as how I get cover story or headline ideas. But pondering is in no way a higher consciousness, but merely something all of us can do when not distracted. No meditation, no higher planes required. And all of this also is verifiable and examinable.
> 
> ...


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 11, 2013)

@Raaabo,i both appreciate & sigh on your carefully & meticulously written posts because you are trying to convey your point to someone who apparently believes he has reached such a high level of consciousness that he can refute likes of Newton,Einstein,Darwin & can probably clear IIT JEE,IIM & UPSC civil services exams with top rank in his sleep when he actually has transcended to a higher plane of consciousness while mere mortals simply sleep & dream using his knowledge of "infinite" & "brahm".as they say every cloud has a silver lining maybe your replies will be archived & displayed in museums while exhibiting the life story of the "great one who solved the mysteries of universe by reading ancient texts & proved wrong darwin,einstein,newton,.........<insert any great scientist name you can think>".


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## Raaabo (Sep 11, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> @Raaabo,i both appreciate & sigh on your carefully & meticulously written posts because you are trying to convey your point to someone who apparently believes he has reached such a high level of consciousness that he can refute likes of Newton,Einstein,Darwin & can probably clear IIT JEE,IIM & UPSC civil services exams with top rank in his sleep when he actually has transcended to a higher plane of consciousness while mere mortals simply sleep & dream using his knowledge of "infinite" & "brahm".as they say every cloud has a silver lining maybe your replies will be archived & displayed in museums while exhibiting the life story of the "great one who solved the mysteries of universe by reading ancient texts & proved wrong darwin,einstein,newton,.........<insert any great scientist name you can think>".



I smell a vendetta here. Don't stoop to that level, or you too are guilty of doing the same. Are you just agreeing with me because I am disagreeing with mediator, or are you just applying the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" way of thinking. Add to the conversation, bring your own views. This doesn't need to be a this group vs that group thread, you and me can also have many interesting discussions on the same topic as well I am sure. And there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with Einstein, you can do it and I can do it and mediator can do it. The world will judge based on fact alone, let them.


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## theterminator (Sep 11, 2013)

Where Sangh spins narratives of victimhood, belligerence - The Hindu


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## Hrishi (Sep 11, 2013)

mediator said:


> @Rishi - Your question itself stems from attachment to the modern material science which dwells in physical domain. Read Tao of Physics (Fritjof Capra), Brief History of Time By STephen Hawkings. There is a reason why the physical world said to be under Maya (does not mean unreal) for which I have argued at length. Read my replies a little more carefully and you might find an answer. Its like asking whether the Earth experiences a day or a night?



But all I asked was two simple questions . I still don't understand. My level of consciousness is not that high.


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 11, 2013)

@Raaabo,that post was supposed to be sarcastic & i believe i am not wrong about this.not to boast here but unlike some others i actually have real life credentials to back up my claim of possessing knowledge more than your average person & assuming real life to be the scale here all i see about your conversation with xyz is something like this:

Raaabo:darwin,rationality,no belief at face value,language understood by someone not familiar with vedas etc......
xyz:you are not qualified enough to talk to me since *you have not read them devotedly*.what is right & what is wrong?answer:i am right & you are wrong.who are you to discuss with me on *science of consciousness(which btw is such a complex & wide topic that only a few top neurologists in the world can even claim to be an expert)* when you haven't even understand the *essence of vedas like me(supposedly).........*

as for disagreeing with Einstein like you said(contrary to your belief i actually read your replies) "Science is very fallible, and that’s the very beauty of it. It does NOT have all the answers, and doesn’t claim to".however that does not mean that you or i or anyone not possessing necessary educational qualifications(advanced PHd degrees to be least) can question Einstein's theories & use that as a basis for argument.*i had no problem about Heisenberg questioning Einstein over his theories but i certainly have problems with xyz/you/me raising doubts over theories of such great scientists.*



> And there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with Einstein, you can do it and I can do it and mediator can do it. The world will judge based on fact alone, let them.


please don't take it in the wrong way but that is a big thing to say.*surely you can disagree with Einstein & so can a man who has never read about cosmological constant but just because Edwin Hubble proved Einstein wrong about this does not make that man any more qualified.as long as that man keep his disagreeing to himself it is fine but to make it known on a public forum debate demands that he must have the necessary educational qualifications to back it up.*


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## Raaabo (Sep 11, 2013)

I didn't mean question him without basis in fact, but questioning can be done after extensive research and learning. I'm not a strong believer in doctrinated studies as the only qualification towards thinking. Direction of thought also matters, and even Edison never got a degree. Einstein struggled with more basic language subjects, and had he been an Indian today wouldn't have got into any half decent college to be able to pursue a phd. He would still have been brilliant, but the toughness of Indian life might have found him working at a bank for all we know. Given our penchant for the sciences, I am surprised there are not more aryabhattas in our mix.

I have met people from IIT, top 100 rankers and DASA students alike, and I can tell you from experience ranks and degrees aren't everything. Most of them just relax after getting the rank, because now "life is set". We want to be economists more than scientists these days, which is sad.

A hunger to learn can be more rewarding, and yes, even you and me can question the universe. Can it happen today? Of course not, but if you have the hunger to deduce or follow your thought up with research and learning and asking for help from the PHDs you know, you can formulate theories. Just as religions seem elitist, so does science these days, and yes I agree with mediator on that. Question everything is a much better way forward towards getting answers, rather than just sitting around in awe of scientists and treating them like gods, and just accepting _everything_ at face value.

Mind you, I'm not saying go find faults with everything that's ever been written, but certainly in the abstract and theory space, there is scope for improvement. If nothing else, following up on a thought of a physicist might aid in you proving them right. If it takes them 6 years and takes you 20, should that stop you? Imagine all the learning in the process.

Besides I know more PHDs who do nothing but parrot the accepted line than anything else and are happy to just take tuition classes - what a waste of a mind that is obviously capable of more. Through digit I've also seen kids from little villages study and learn and develop skills that a lot of us don't bother to slog towards, do we want to limit a creative and brilliant mind just because he didn't go to MIT? Our current educational system will never catch up, which is why we need to encourage thought at every level. Anyway, that's just my personal take.


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## rhitwick (Sep 11, 2013)

Now is the time I guess to bring these back from dead. Two cents from me...


> Men hate uncertainty, unknown and unexplained (IDK about animals if they also react to unknown same way as men do; but, yea men do).
> 
> Since the beginning we tried to explain things we see. It was need of the hour then and even now. Everything had to have some reason, something had to be source of it...when science was not established (well, as 'Science') the answers were given philosophically. "If, you do this, this and this, thus would happen". As identical as a scientific formula to reach a goal.
> 
> ...





> There are two ways to reach the truth.
> 
> One is science and another is Philosophy.
> 
> ...


b/w Mediator did post in reply to one of these once...


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 11, 2013)

@Raaabo,i have no issues regarding questioning but questioning based on your own belief is different from questioning others in a public forum like this based on your belief.you are right about Edison never having any degrees but then again Edison also didn't needed any self-efforts to spread his name & i am pretty sure that i have never heard of anyone posting here.he was more of an exception & the fact is that it is not possible for such a genius to be not noted in today's times where world is more connected than ever even if he/she doesn't possess fancy degrees.as for Einstein struggling in today's India i again disagree because i have seen people having poor language skills making it through IIT simply based on their strength in physics/maths/chemistry.

i am not saying take scientists at their face value but then again it also does not mean that you should start taking shots at them without a proper homework.i don't agree with some theories of Einstein but i never make my disagreements known in public because i know well enough with my limited knowledge of quantum mechanics,partial differential equations,Schrodinger equation & theory of relativity which i studied during my engineering studies in one of the best engineering college in India that i wouldn't stand a chance against a "real scientist with years of experience".if i can accept this reality then why can't others unless of course they claim to be "genius on par with real scientists with years of experience & sources to back their claim of genius" in which case i have no problem whatsoever.



> A hunger to learn can be more rewarding, and yes, even you and me can question the universe. Can it happen today? Of course not, but if you have the hunger to deduce or follow your thought up with research and learning and asking for help from the PHDs you know, you can formulate theories.





> If it takes them 6 years and takes you 20, should that stop you?


science is a very wide area & highly specialized field like theoretical physics is one of the toughest & leagues apart from other subjects.*in fact i would go as far as to claim that "forget 20 years even an entire lifetime of study in theoretical physics & not less than a few hundred people in ~7 billion of humans currently even have a slight chance of coming up with a theory questioning universe & its existence on par with likes of Einstein & hawking".*

*you mention science being elitist & may be it is but then again it is meant to be elitist.*you yourself said that Edison never possessed any degrees & yet that did not stopped him.why?because he was a genius.does that mean any one can succeed in life like Edison without formal degrees?no,because not everyone is a genius.*genius word in itself has elitist nature because you can not become a genius simply by hard work alone.*i ask you this:*does an ordinary Indian citizen has the luxury to spend his time pondering over questions like existence of universe,significance of dark energy etc when he knew himself that he is not some genius when Indian economy,politics,society all are going down the hill(which you yourself stressed many times here)?leave such questions to those either qualified enough by virtue of their degrees or genius enough by virtue of their luck/birth.*

there is a traditional Indian idiom which perfectly describes this:
*jiska kaam usee ko saaje aur kare to dandaa baaje(A particular duty suits to him whose it is, if somebody else does it gets stick)*
politics is not some specialized scientific area so everyone is free to debate on this.*the problem arises when some self-claimed gurus starts posting texts from scriptures claiming answer to everything under the sun starting from superiority of modi over others to politics,riots,muslim invasion & their impact,evolution,dark energy & whatnot.*

btw just to be morally correct(& a little bit cheeky  ) here is a verse from Gita regarding that idom above:
Sri Krishna says this to Arjuna “*One’s own duty, though devoid of merit, is preferable to the duty of another well performed.* Even death in the performance of one’s own duty brings blessedness; another duty is fraught with fear.”(ChapterIII-39)

edit:just to add a bit of legal angle here too courtesy my study of Public Administration:
under article 32 of Indian constitution SC has the power to issue 5 types of writs for the enforcement of fundamental rights.one of them is "Quo warranto" which literally means "what is your authority".basically it means court asking a person holding a public office if he has all the essential qualifications & followed proper procedure to hold that office instead of just using some other ways.even judicial system does not allow a position of public authority without necessary qualifications & procedure & here people are posting like they have some kind of authoritative command over subjects they are debating.


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## dashing.sujay (Sep 11, 2013)

While reading page #20, tapatalk hanged to such extent that my phone had to be restarted by pulling battery out.


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## Hrishi (Sep 11, 2013)

dashing.sujay said:


> While reading page #20, tapatalk hanged to such extent that my phone had to be restarted by pulling battery out.



You are not alone...


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## Anorion (Sep 11, 2013)

there neednt be nothing before big bang, all science claims is that all our measurements and proofs deal with this particular continuum, anything that existed before does not fit into our measurements and calculations, and that we have no reasonable way of knowing, proving or measuring prior states. 
the story of the first few seconds is fascinating, and there is no way higher experiences or questioning alone would have led us to that knowledge. science allows us to deal with things that are very remote from human experience.


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 11, 2013)

dashing.sujay said:


> While reading page #20, tapatalk hanged to such extent that my phone had to be restarted by pulling battery out.


maybe your phone achieved temporary nirvana state seeing as it consists of same fundamental particles as you.


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## Anorion (Sep 11, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> maybe your phone achieved temporary nirvana state seeing as it consists of same fundamental particles as you.



wow. there is an ideal but imaginary "diamond phone". all phones are partial manifestations of that ideal.


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## rhitwick (Sep 11, 2013)

Anorion said:


> wow. there is an ideal but imaginary "diamond phone". all phones are partial manifestations of that ideal.



In real world 'Vertu' creates those "Diamond Phone"s


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## dashing.sujay (Sep 11, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> maybe your phone achieved temporary nirvana state seeing as it consists of same fundamental particles as you.



Lol had it been the case you said,  it would have hanged never


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## mediator (Sep 11, 2013)

raaabo said:
			
		

> mediator said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Read my questions again. You seem to have generalized again.

I did not say "everything occurs in the past". There is a difference between what is being proven and what is happening. An electron can continue to move i.e a happening, but the moment you view it by using energy, it has been changed already! Similarly, you actions i.e a happening, but the moment you try to prove that you exist, it has changed! Therefore, actions are still being done, discussiong continues and debate has not "ended"!



			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> mediator said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again you did not understand my reply.

I'm not talking about what the musicians want, but what happens during their yog with the music itself. Its not really difficult to understand that.



			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> mediator said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is called evolution of consciousness, not darwin's evolution that I referred to.




			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> I only stated that science is a study of what’s observable, and even it requires leaps of faith, and I am sure the Vedas do too. However, they seem to me to observe less and abstract more, and thus get called “higher consciousness”, whereas perhaps they are not, which is what science is slowly eroding away at. I never claimed that both the Vedas and sciences cannot co-exist. It’s the usurping of the Vedas by a religion that made them irrelevant to the rest of the world.


And thats the flaw in many science theories (not all) that they are a study of what is "observable" or you can say an analysis of the limited more like sample testing, where the sample may or may not represent the total population and even if it represents it is hardly a 100% match! Hence my question to you, 



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> My simple question to you : First, it was assumed that there is "contracting and expanding" universe. Now when universe is observed to be expanding, they deduce something called "dark energy" and used scientific words like "mysterious" to explain it. What is the guarantee that this universe will continue to expand even faster? Suppose by any chance a deceleration is observed, are we going to rip off the "dark energy" and go back to "contracting universe" or have a pudding of both?



And no Vedas do not research upon the lowest realms of consciousness to deduce a "theory". It is a science which seeks to know the highest truth and then percieve the world from that level of consciousness. Here the concept of "direct knowledge" comes into the picture, which enables a seer to have the direct understanding of the truth at various levels of existence. It is not some analysis or research in lower levels of consciousness and hence my example of eucalyptus tree which you did not take seriously.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> A simple example :
> 
> 
> Raaabo is sitting at the top of eucalyptus tree and Mediator down. Earth being round, your best friend comes from far where you can see but I cannot. For you, your friend is more like present-tense, but for me he is future-tense as I cannot see him. When he comes near me, where I can see him, he becomes present. For you he still remains present. When he leaves and goes at a distance where I cannot see him, he becomes past. But for you he is still more like present tense. You could see the flow, but I could not!
> ...






			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> mediator said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed it is and its not an assumption, but again a "knowing", a nature of happening based on the science of satva,rajas,tamas. 

If you don't have deep knolwedge of these, then it is obvious you are bound to make assumptions, conclusions or ignore what has been said. It is again an example where you are viewing the shruties through the limited frameworks of modern science.



			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> mediator said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not really, here I'm just affirming the concepts of bhakti and karma yog. EVen though, the NASA engineer is a specialized person with "higher expertise", his understanding is only limited to the realms of the physical world. But yes, through his own experience and inner intuition, he can indeed draw analogy of things happenings where he may understand the limitedness of his own actions and the nature of the higher truth.

Here "higher expertise" does not at all mean "higher consciousness". Here the "higher" has been used by me in addition to your post to show you only that "higher" can mean something different as well and not necessarily an attitude that condescends! 




			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> The absolute truth is what I seek, and yes I freely admit that there are some interesting thoughts in the old texts (original wisdom, not translated conveniently wisdom as on the blogs you linked to). However, the search for absolute truth also requires you to take questions that very well might suggest that perhaps your interpretations are flawed in some ways.[/b] The very first step to higher consciousness would logically be to question whether such a state exists at all, and had you done that, you would have much easier answers to share with me. However, since there are none, it makes me assume that perhaps you believe too easily in these concepts, perhaps because you are drawn in by the mysticism of the writings of others who claim to have attained this level.[/b]
> 
> Just as you have criticised other religions here of not being able to admit to flaws in their “logic”, I am doing the same for your belief system. And yes, I am the first to say that the science I hold dear does NOT know even 1/millionth of what is to be known yet, before you start questioning what I believe.


The question you put forward is like asking is there a state at which a person can lift 200 kgs on chest, or people walking on mountains without oxygen supply? The former can be achieved by practicing the external which requires high will power as well. The latter can be seen in the life of sherpas alone.

The state that you questioned has been put forward by different sages/seers, the authours of various Upanishads, Tantras, contributors of Veda etc. It is called as SHruti (the heard, not a physical hearing) because they experienced it and not because they debated or did some research at "physical level of consciousness". 

ANyways, I have questioned the religion of Islam for I have read QUran whereas you are simply assuming and believing on the science which you have never experienced, have no interest in and have hardly read about, perhaps a few quotes out of the riddles and thereby stripping it of its poetry and riddles like you did with the atharveda text, let alone the translation.


Moreover, if you want people not to discuss other religions, then perhaps you should tell that to the clerics and perhaps raise your voice against such verses. There are many like this : 

O you who believe, *take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends of each other.* And whoever amongst you takes them for friends he is indeed one of them. *Surely Allåh guides not the unjust people.* (Quran 5.51)



			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> To the first part, yes. It’s simple proof. It happens too often, across species lines, and that forms a pattern. Again, it’s a theory, but certainly more plausible than god created us. There are intelligent parts to the Vedas and there are superstitious and religious parts, why is it you can point out flaws in logic for everything else except that?
> 
> A mosquito net is evolution, as is the electric powered All-Out I have on in my room. Science is evolution in itself. I have no troubles with you challenging science on logic, which you attempt to do often, more power to you if you prove science wrong. Heck they’ll give you a Nobel Prize and a million USD, and now is the best time to get dollars anyway… Why are you so against people challenging the knowledge of some texts written ages ago. No offense, but despite you claiming otherwise, it sounds more and more like you believe in it most believe in their religion – with blind faith.
> 
> I will be the first to point out that Big Bang theory is in fact a theory with some evidence, but certainly no definitive proof. Also there are more probable theories now that suggest there was no big bang. Or that it’s possible that evolution was not as per the timelines suggested, but the overwhelming proof being found cannot just be ignored just because it’s inconvenient. I am all for listening to theories as to how evolution is against the ways of nature, and something that proves how mankind has always existed in the current form. As long as there’s proof and logical data to support a claim, I am all for it. Otherwise it’s just abstract claims – even more abstract than the Big Bang Theory.


Earlier I asked you questions on evolution, and you gave me a link to "wikipedia" on evolution. If my simple questions cannot be answered by you and you want to play the game of link then here you for the evolutionfairytale

Great Scientist Debunks Evolution DR John Sanford - YouTube
Debunking Evolution - problems between the theory and reality; the false science of evolution
*www.vedicsciences.net/articles/darwin-debunked.html

The links are too many for you to read. Here are my questions 

What really happened to the dinosaurs or the explanation is again a plausible theory? Since the survival of the fittest, adaptation and mutation enables the species to grow to a more suitable environment, is it necessary that the eating habits would change too? How were the senses developed? Did they happen in one day or incrementally? Most importantly when did the life come? Do you understand the history of E.Coli experiment and its advancements so far? The questions are many. Let see how far can you talk on these alone from the framework of "proven or measured or seen".


Moreover, I haven't really found a flaw in the shruties yet and the more I propound it to you, the only thing you have to say is that it is a belief.

I asked you to prove your existence, and your reply was "You don't exist then as well". I argued " how will you prove if the subject to prove has become past at the moment of analysis, let alone conclusion" and you replied "Hey, then this debate already ended". I explained the bhakti-yoga and your reply was "We have a sense of I for what we want", "I explained the essence of higher in context of consciousness" and you judged it as "higher" is condescending. To me, it only looks like you are trying to dodge my questions in every possible way.




			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> A mosquito net is evolution, as is the electric powered All-Out I have on in my room. Science is evolution in itself. I have no troubles with you challenging science on logic, which you attempt to do often, more power to you if you prove science wrong. Heck they’ll give you a Nobel Prize and a million USD, and now is the best time to get dollars anyway… Why are you so against people challenging the knowledge of some texts written ages ago. No offense, but despite you claiming otherwise, it sounds more and more like you believe in it most believe in their religion – with blind faith.


Again my questions to you, if you are done with the humour of "all-out", "Nobel-Prize" and again dodging my questions.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> So we found different varieties of fossils and made an assumption that "evolution happened"? A land species which looked similar in structure to the air one and hey, we found a missing link? When was the first flight from land to air evolution happened? Is that recorded or an assumption connoting a time scale? Is that measurable, verifiable and proven? If thats the case, then perhaps humans should have evolved to be resistant to "mosquito bites" alone or does mutation, adaptation and survival of the fittest are completely silent on the diseases caused by food habits, deficiency of vitamins, minerals, protiens etc, heat, cold, insect bites etc? There are many other factors which can be put and are not really registered in the dictionary of mutation, adaption and the survival of the fittest.


Can you please simply answer my questions?



			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> I will be the first to point out that Big Bang theory is in fact a theory with some evidence, but certainly no definitive proof. *Also there are more probable theories now that suggest there was no big bang. Or that it’s possible that evolution was not as per the timelines suggested, but the overwhelming proof being found cannot just be ignored just because it’s inconvenient. I am all for listening to theories as to how evolution is against the ways of nature, and something that proves how mankind has always existed in the current form. As long as there’s proof and logical data to support a claim, I am all for it.* Otherwise it’s just abstract claims – even more abstract than the Big Bang Theory.


What you can as proof is actually called an assumption based on observations. We have have the understanding of mutation and adaption and similarities between two fossiles and we immediately assume "Hey, thats evolution". To me thats an assumption, just like two similar looking boys can be assumed to be brothers.

But anyways, with the science of consciousness you really don't need to run after "probably theories", spoonfeeding of evidences before the atheists can "safely" start using it in their arguments. One who has already transcended doesn't need Veda and thats the beauty!

For your amusement : Can Your Body Sense Future Events Without Any External Clue?: Northwestern University News




			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> Space time = 0 for the big bang theory, but only because the laws of physics break down at a singularity. Thus what existed before a singularity cannot be calculated. Even with beliefs, scientists have to be able to calculate their way back. Since they cannot calculate past the big bang, they have conveniently called space-time relative for observers. A nano second after the big bang, observation is possible, physics exists again, and space-time comes into being.
> 
> Absolute time also exists in quantum theories, which is independent of physics, and thus can go back beyond the big bang, but it is meaningless, as we have no reference frame of it. Thus it could be a trillion trillion years in absolute time, but it’s easier to say 20 billion years since the big bang. Also, I already said the big bang is a theory, and perhaps not the best fitting one with the evidence at hand.


I think, you yourself are not aware, as to how illogical that sounds! Now my question, why do tha laws of physics break down at singularity? What made us assume so? And lets say, even if another "big-bang" happens, is it necessary that the laws of physics to be the same as in today's universe?

If you already made so many assumptions which are not really  "measurable, verifiable or proven", then why did not we "assume" more on what was before t=0?



			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> The universe is expanding like a balloon expands when you blow air into it. Every galaxy is moving away from every other galaxy, and tracing it back brings us to some point in space where scientists assume the big bang happened. However, it doesn’t have to be a creation point. In fact other theories suggest that the universe is not infinite, and in fact space-time itself could be spherical in shape like the earth, thus you could theoretically travel across the universe to arrive back where you came from. I am aware that the Vedas suggest the universe is like an egg that’s rotating, and many physicists like to quote the Vedas here, while others point out that the model that mathematically works doesn’t rotate, and their egg theory perhaps came from seeing the solar system rather than a much higher understanding of quantum physics, since there are no colourful examples provided. If they really understood the concept, then there would have been something like “Descending from Brahma’s forehead, you can travel to the ends of the universe and find that you never moved at all” Or something that even remotely suggests that they also thought this way. It’s more likely that the text was referring to the vastness of the universe, and centering it around earth came up with the shape of the spinning egg – since all the stars seem to spin around the sky. However, what you get from the abstracts, in not what a physicist gets, and it may spark him into new theories.
> 
> Also remember, you are quoting science theories, which are basically ways of trying to understand the universe mathematically. They are theories, and no one calls them fact. Just as evolution is still a theory, despite all of the evidence in its favour. However, you not flying off the face of the earth, and why, is a fact. The same way we accurately measured the gravity of the moon just by looking at it through a telescope, and also of Mars and Venus and even Mercury, and were thus able to send probes and landers there, correctly finding the right orbit to take, the amount of rocket thrust to land on the surface. Too much thrust you take off again, too little you crash into the planet destroying everything you spent billions on… This is proof, evidence, empirical data, things you can see. Sitting in another city you can say things to me, that’s something you’re doing. I know you like to question the very existence of everything, but then why is it you do anything at all. Why did you get out of bed today? Why do you continue to breathe? Let’s move beyond the silly existential stuff and understand that you live in a physical world, and you have to accept its laws. I don’t mean the police’s laws, I mean physics, chemistry, biology, mathematics.
> 
> “What if” is a double-edged sword, so understand it cuts you as well as someone else. All of the logic science uses, it welcomes to be used against it. Every theory that’s put up is debated, and even if ALL the leading thinkers and researchers agree (rarely happens anyway) it’s still just a more plausible theory until proven with physical evidence. If a religion was running the LHC, I have no doubt they would have found something of global importance by now. However science is not afraid to say, “Hey, we tried, we spent a trillion dollars, we ran our experiments, we found nothing!” Even if it were just a belief, I’d rather believe in something like that, than something that crumbles when questioned by mere logic – which is something every human is born with. Even little children who put their fingers into a flame and get burnt never do it again, because they learn…


Again you have totally dodged my questions and started explaining how modern science works and the meaning of Big-Bang .

My questions should have been answered already by an "atheist", an astute scientific mind like yours by now. My questions : 



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> And so the big-bang happened. What was before that t=0? Where did that concentrated chunk of matter come from? Why did it concentrate in the first place? Remember, the "mysterious dark energy" which is trying to "explain" the faster expanding universe is contrary to the "contracting universe" side of the theory! This is what I call a research work, analogous to sample testing in marketing and not really a science! You observe and you "assume and make conclusions" and when those conclusions don't fit in the newly revealed play of Shakti, you do your homework again and make new "conclusions and assumptions" telling others "This is how modern science progresses"!
> 
> My simple question to you : First, it was assumed that there is "contracting and expanding" universe. Now when universe is observed to be expanding, they deduce something called "dark energy" and used scientific words like "mysterious" to explain it. What is the guarantee that this universe will continue to expand even faster? Suppose by any chance a deceleration is observed, are we going to rip off the "dark energy" and go back to "contracting universe" or have a pudding of both?





			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> Ah I can see that the only defence you have left now is to attack the very science you were once quoting and finding parallels with in the ancient text. Look! They also said the earth was round! See how smart they were…. Has now become an entire superstition? I suppose it’s a global scale conspiracy, and Neil Armstrong was filmed in a studio in California, every government has always lied to us, and NASA is an even bigger PR machine spewing out falsehoods than NaMo’s team. You’re making this into a science vs Vedas debate, when it’s purely a question of whether “you” (mediator) are actually looking at them as a faith or as a science, and “me” (Raaabo) questioning the lack of logic in your findings… Again, I have nothing against the Vedas except my original statement of them being irrelevant to the masses now (for good) and having too much religious-like leaps of faith required for them to ever appeal to the non-hindus and scientists, thus again, making them irrelevant in a grander scheme of things. I also contest the achieving of higher consciousness itself, and even if it can be done, assuming the Vedas are the only way to do so is again belief, and reeks of a more religious than scientific bent of mind.


Again an instance where you are rather curious towards my percieved intentions rather than what I have posted.

If you you read my posts clearly, then I have stated parallels as well as differences. A few examples - 

Parallels : 
 - Parallel Universes
 - Quantum theory, which state evverything is a dance of energy. It is the only science in modern age which is close to the Vedic science
 - Gravity, mathematics etc

Differences
 - No concept of vedic mathematics in modern thinking
 - Time is linear as per modern science, but cyclic as per Vedic, just liek tides from the ocean example.
 - The evolution theory and the big bang are like fairytales at the conception of higher levels of consciousness.
- The shruties speak of evolution of conciousness where evolution at physical domain has no meaning. The consciousness can evolve as well as devolve

The golden egg, FYI, is again a metaphor. It is a part of Rigveda, where the metaphor implies the deepest secrets of manifestations. The golden connotes the element of life force where garbha means womb, i.e the realm of matter. From the nature of Tantras also this can be explained, a dance of Shiva (golden) and Shakti (garbha). But apparently, to an atheist like you who have hardly read any scriptures or devoid of basic nature if the riddles and metaphors, this is bound to look like Big-Bang, perhaps because a few people attached to "Hinduism" say so and hence your judgement which is again based on the acts of people that thinks that for the students of Indian science like me it means "Big_bang"?



			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> *True knowledge is something anyone can absorb. Give them a book and if they can understand it, it’s knowledge. Teach a child on his fingers to count from 1 to 10. That’s knowledge.* Teach a child a language to be able to communicate and share ideas, that’s knowledge. Explain to him why he throws a ball at 45 degrees it travels furthest, but at 30 degrees with more force it goes swifter and is a good angle for the wicket keeper to keep an eye on it all the time – that’s knowledge. Knowledge is something we can use in everyday life, to relax, to learn, to build, and yes to think. Even the Vedas are knowledge, as is Sanskrit, as are the books of all religions, not just yours. Even the thoughts of every commenter on this forum is a form of knowledge. As long as all knowledge is taken in as is, without blind belief it’s beneficial.


Wrong again! When attachment comes into the picture, the greatest of the knowledge can become ignorance and hence the people attached to evolution theory have no idea about the superstition they are dwelling in. Similarly, it doesn't matter if one mugs up all the vedic mantras. Even if they understand it from only a linguistic point of few and the meaning of the words, it really proves no use.



			
				Stephen_Hawking said:
			
		

> Both Vedic and modern science agree upon a continuous dance of creation and annihilation of particle energy everywhere in the universe - Siva tandavam as per Hindu mythology, Rigveda discusses this cycle in detail.
> 
> Vedic View: *The Universe rotates, shaped like an egg.*
> Modern View: The Universe is still and it resembles the surface of a sphere.
> ...


Can you please provide me the sanskrit of the above bold for even the manifestation in the infinite can rotate and revolve.




			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> I absolutely agree with you 100%. I am not, have not, and never will be as well-versed as you are in the Vedas because *I have not even a 1/100th the interest you have. I never claimed to have an interest in them,* I have an interest in the mind, psychology, how humans think, why they believe certain things and not the other, what is this higher consciousness, why do marijuana smokers report the exact same symptoms, etc. I only offer arguments based on that interest, and have never claimed to be taking any stance but that. I also have made it clear from the beginning of this discussion that I require proof, facts and will not take anything on faith. Just as both you and me will not accept that any Abrahamic god built the universe, I also refuse to just accept that any other force called Brahma / Brahman did, and accept that humans know exactly how long he lives, because he told them!


Had you stated this in the start only, you would have saved your time and mine as well. 





			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> @mediator: I hope you will finally understand why I spent so much time questioning you, and I hope you take this in the right spirit:
> I perceived an arrogance regarding your understanding of the Vedas – perhaps related to knowing Sanskrit, or just for feeling that you know more than anyone else in general. You are obviously also interested in science, yet you are letting your love for the Vedas even get in the way of logic. This is the point where a science starts turning into a religion, and as I said before, arrogance of faith leads to an end of learning


To be honest, There are many people who say this to me. But this is my natural style of debating. I'm not trying to be arrogant or attached to any kind of knowledge at all and hence here telling the history of brahminism, cast system, attachment of Veda leading to a fashionable cult to (dwivedi, trivedi, chaturvedi etc just like atheism is a cult born out of attachement to modern science). Just like a Haryanvi/Punjabi may sound arrogant to delhite or a delhite may sound aggressive/arrogant to a south indian. Similarly, I guess people are attached to my style of writing.

Arrogance is only a perception here and hence I often request people to transcend beyond names, style, forms etc and understand the underlying essence. If this is the only reason you debated, then you may ignore my post! 

But like I said earlier, even if it sounds arrogant, then this is Fight Club which has no place for those who are disturbed by arrogance or provocations.


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## rhitwick (Sep 12, 2013)

^wah. 
both of you are arguing on a thing. Whereas your is 'science of consciousness' and his is 'observe, measure, verify and prove'.
Two different paths to reach a goal. Why you expect him to explain everything by the standard, tools and methods that 'YOU' insist so much whereas his explanations of your claims are just nullified by you?

Two different persons debating, if he 'believed' everything you stated thus far and 'experienced' 'science of consciousness' would there be a debate (yes, there is still a chance that he could have experienced something totally different than you. But, that would again go into an infinite loop as you would have claimed 'that's no experience at all as his experience not matching up to you)

It seems, you have run out of options and logic. For every question asked, only answer left by you now is 'experience the science of consciousness' but don't try to prove it. Raaabo always cleared that he would NOT take anything on face value until and unless it can't be proved. Get it? *"CAN'T BE PROVED"* is the phrase to note and remember here.

Science proves, then questions itself, then tweaks the result, then questions again and this neverending process of 'knowing' keeps on going. Its called evolution of truth. What is truth today may become one of the 'good choices' later. There is no absolute truth in science but seems you dwell with "absolute truth" here. You found that in "Veda" (and other such texts originated only from ancient India and obviously untouched and uninfluenced by foreign religions). You are so sure that this is the "absolute truth" that you won't even question it.

IDK if you ever did? You might have done in the starting phase of your life when you were an 'atheist' (in true blue abrahamic meaning) and then turned into a theist (again in a true blue abrahamic meaning). Its now very important to know what influenced you, what changed you, what experience you have had, what were the circumstances (socio-political) around you at that time?

Swami Vivekanada was an atheist in his early life. Even his being 'atheist" was mostly what you call 'abrahamic' way of questioning. Then something happened and he changed; he became the most renowned person in 'Hindu' dharma and helped spreading the teachings of Veda,Upanishada,Gita in the world. I'm, for a long, time trying to search the reason of that change; every document I get, claims there had been a miracle and he changed. None exactly tells and unfortunately Swamiji himself did not document it anywhere. May be that's the missing link in what could have been the most important evolution in Hindu-dharma.

You? No, obviously I'm not comparing you with him. He was not an arrogant, pompous, blinded-by-faith person like you. He read more than you, met more people than you, learnt with open heart and respected each religion as it is. B/W, IDK your opinion on him (he's documented of praying to an idol, inviting muslim seers in his ashram and spending days with them in discussing philosophy, celebrating Christ's birthday at his ashram and discussing Bible with his disciples)


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## snap (Sep 12, 2013)

@mediator



			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> Also, understanding when ALL ancient texts were written (not just the Vedas, but the Abrahamic ones too) and in what social context is important, and belief is never to be taken at face value. Lines from a book mean nothing, it is the way people behave and how they welcome questioning and learning that really matters.
> 
> I agree that the Vedas have interesting ideas in them, but alas, I do not see it ever being possible for them to be universally acceptable, given that they have been usurped by a religious belief to add more gold in temples and garner votes.
> 
> I also want to add, I am only disappointed at the way people argued, willing to forego logic to try and get a point across and take a pot shot at other religions. Some of the comments made in this thread were indeed deplorable, and I certainly hope that we all can do better in real life. Not once did anyone supporting the Vedas as a science condemn the way “Hinduism” interprets the Vedas today and uses them for gain, and not once did anyone show it the anger and hatred that was shown towards other religions.



you tell us to transcend beyond the names and the rituals, as you say to attain "higher consciousness" but today the followers of vedas are still stuck at idol worshipping and other rituals.


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## mediator (Sep 12, 2013)

rishi said:
			
		

> But all I asked was two simple questions . I still don't understand. My level of consciousness is not that high.


To be honest, the answer to your earlier question is neither yes nor no, also both yes and no.

In brief - 

Is it neither yes nor no, because of the research, analysis, verification based on observation done in a realm of limitedness where tools of analysis lik microsocope, telescope etc are nothing by an extension of our sense. Now our sense as I have argued at length are subject of limitedness, where mind itself a dance of division of things and its essential nature. From higher perspective, everything is atoms/energy. Yet by default, we see divisions, a concept of yours and mine whereas your own atoms are not yours, but a momentary borrowing from the nature and then giving back to the nature. From even a higher perspective, we can still find "an order" in this dance of energy/atoms that is making a see a shape of your body. From a level higher, I can see a connection of that order to other orders, that is the sun, earth, your mom, dad and everything else. From a level higher, I can see that these orders are a part of the same order (Ritam).

Thus from higher levels of reasoning and higher consciousness (where reasoning fails to exist), the question of yes or no ceases to exist.


It is Yes and No, from a phyical framework. It is correct as it has many concepts like mutation and adaptation and it is no because there is an assumption based on those concepts and fossils found that there could be an evolution as presented by the theory. It is like an assumption that if I see two similar boys, then by default I may make an assumption that they are brothers. Similarly, there are concepts underlying Big-Bang like red-shift which is correct and based on observation alone which remains consistent, verifiable and proven and measurable. But the assumption that everything was concentrated at one place without explaining in the same consistency as to what existed before or where it came from becomes a flaw, an expose of that assumption which is based on the same paramaters which we are trying to use to view physical world and the science behind i.e modern material science!



			
				snap said:
			
		

> you tell us to transcend beyond the names and the rituals, as you say to  attain "higher consciousness" but today the followers of vedas are  still stuck at idol worshipping and other rituals.


I have already addressed that. Like I said, attachment to any kind of knowledge be it Vedas can lead to ignorance.

_O Arjuna, men of limited understanding presume speculative interpretations of the Vedic scriptures, advocating that there is no divine principle in creation; full of lascivious desires, aiming to attain the lush heavenly worlds; *they glorify only the statements in the Vedas which are pleasing to their senses;* performing numerous ostentatious rituals productive of good birth, wealth and power insuring sense enjoyment and worldly pleasures. _(BG 2.42-43)

Again, divine here refers in the context of consciousness alone!



			
				Anorion said:
			
		

> universe is not infinite. *couldn't be, or the light from all the stars would have burned our eyes out. * by current understanding, if you go in a straight line, you don't keep  going forever, you end up back where you started. most modern scientific  theories cannot work in an infinite universe. universe is like screen  in snake.


What makes you assume so? Do I really care how the modern science theories work? Do I have to fit my understanding in their framework? What is the guarantee that the star which is some 10000 light years away from us is even existing right now? If, The light reached us after 10000 years, then it simply means that the light we see right now belongs to the star that existed 10000 years back in the history. Moreover, there is a concept of bending of light due to gravity. What is the guarantee that the light that is percieved from the north/front is actually coming from the north/front? Isn't it possible that it came from east/left or west/right or perhaps from behind, like lines of magnetic forces as shown in a bar magnet diagram?

Anyways, mosquito can evolve too. But why not its eating/sucking habits then? Why still blood, why not human pus?



			
				raaabo said:
			
		

> This is from someone whose views I respect a lot. Someone who really has  shunned the physical world unlike those who claim to, even if he had no  choice in the matter. *This is someone who cannot help but spend all his  time thinking, and is the closest thing to a higher consciousness that  can perhaps exist for me.* And yes, he meditates as well!


I agree with that!


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## Hrishi (Sep 12, 2013)

> Originally Posted by mediator
> *Now our sense as I have argued at length are subject of limitedness,...*


No . It is not.The limitedness ceases gradually as we discover reasons for things we explore.
I think Even according to the Veda , when you acquire more knowledge your level should increase.If our sense were to be limited we would not have been a subject of evolution.We would still be climbing tress and clothing in deer skins.

It may be true that the research and analysis done on majority of topics are based on limited information or the only information that we are aware of , but that limit gradually recedes as we learn/explore more and more.

For every level of higher perspective there exists another higher level of perspective according to what you are saying. If I were to agree with that then wouldn't I be stuck in a infinite number of perspectives , to which I see no end ?


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## mediator (Sep 12, 2013)

@Rishi - You should read Kena and Katha Upanishad for this (I'd recommend Aurobindo)! You did not understand the context of my post. Your eyes can see blue color of the sky (limitations, divisions etc) whereas it is through reasoning and higher understanding that we derive at a conclusion that the sky is colorless! Once this chain of reasoning keeps on going, it reaches an end from where a chain of higher experience starts and then to a stage where there is essentially no difference remaining between the experiencer, experiencing and the experienced.

@Rhitwick - You may call me whatever you like. But somehow, your posts sound to me a like a long lost bro who is angry at me because I did not invite him to my birthday party!


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## Hrishi (Sep 12, 2013)

mediator said:


> @Rishi - You should read Kena and Katha Upanishad for this (I'd recommend Aurobindo)! You did not understand the context of my post. Your eyes can see blue color of the sky (limitations, divisions etc) whereas it is through reasoning and higher understanding that we derive at a conclusion that the sky is colorless! Once this chain of reasoning keeps on going, it reaches an end from where a chain of higher experience starts and then to a stage where there is essentially no difference remaining between the experiencer, experiencing and the experienced.


According to your understanding of Vedas do you agree that Universe is limited and Finite or do you disagree to this ? Do you believe in multiverse theories ? What's your definition of singularity ?

If you have already answered them , please quote the original post.


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## Anorion (Sep 12, 2013)

mediator said:


> Anyways, mosquito can evolve too. But why not its eating/sucking habits then? Why still blood, why not human pus?


because mosquito technology tree started with blood sucker
prey and predator, parasite and host, bee and flower tend to maintain relationship despite attempts to evolve out of that relation. it's called red queen hypothesis.


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## Raaabo (Sep 12, 2013)

@mediator: Instead of quoting I’m just going to reply, hoping maybe the shorter length of posts will get you to see the points I make instead of just ignoring them. Plus it’s more iPad friendly.

“Understanding” is the very problem. What you understand as the forgetting or losing sense of “I” is peppered by your examples of showcasing the search to improve the “I” that we feel. I’m still waiting for examples that make sense (in this world of ours that doesn’t exist in the “now” according to you). You’re too high on your higher consciousness to accept even the possibility that your search for losing the sense of “I” is just making you a bigger “I”. Again, I am not questioning the Vedas, I am questioning your understanding of them and your experiences and learning, or knowing.

At the risk of being too repetitive: “Science” is seeking truth step by step, being wrong, questioning, accepting the wrongs and moving along. No science can “know” everything and not be able to demonstrate or explain, otherwise it’s just “faith”. Religions, without exception, explain “everything”, because they’re based solely in faith. And if that’s a concept that’s hard for you to understand, then we’re at an impasse that cannot be breached without logical and rational thinking. Let’s try this a new way – quote some examples of what the Vedas were totally wrong about. Something you don’t agree with at all, because it just cannot be explained or demonstrated. 

As someone pointed out earlier, you’re questioning quantum level physics, and taking the answers from ancient text. However, what are those answers, and what is the proof they provide? Just keep it simple for us simple folk, and explain the universe to us. Why not give us your vedic-based facts that will explain the shape of the universe for us lower consciousness retards – with proof and reasoning please, not faith. If you “know”, you can explain the reasoning – that’s the very definition of science in every language.

Also I am tired of the examples of weightlifters. How much were you able to lift before, and then after reading the Vedas, now that you “know”. Give us examples of how your own life is so much better, now that you “know” all of the secrets of the universe that the idiot scientists such as Einstein and Hawking have wasted their entire lives on. In fact, you have to be smarter than those idiots, because even Hawking himself studied the Vedic literature, as have many scientists, and yet the fools still go on looking for proof instead of just being satisfied with knowing all the answers.

I have one problem with sages and seers – they are/were all human. What you are basically saying is that all of humanity are a bunch of idiots, all of these people who are trying to explain the universe, built cities, explained gravity, landed on the moon, built the ISS, the Hubble telescope, landed probes on Mars, Jupiter, Venus and Mercury, and who you will eventually approach to save your life one day with surgery or chemotherapy – all of those people’s knowledge for the past thousands of years, pales in comparison to some sages and seers who lived a couple of thousand years ago, who talk of things in the abstract and give no proof whatsoever for their findings. And the proof of this is that you can achieve it too?

I know you have meditated, have you smoked marijuana? “Science” would demand that you at least try it once to ensure that you are not being deceived by your own mind. Oh wait, but that would be doubt, and doubt isn’t a part of this science, only faith…

Not once have you shown a single thread of doubt for absolutely anything you have read in the Vedas your entire life, because they’re perfect as you say. This is exactly the same feeling Christians get by following Christ, and the others get by following their beliefs. This “higher state of consciousness” is widely documented by all religions – even witchcraft. Read a little about it. How do Muslims slash themselves with knives and get through the pain? How do some orthodox Christians (in Brazil) get themselves crucified on Good Friday? What about all of those people who claim that their faith in Jesus or Allah healed them of cancer? Some are even documented in science as miracle recoveries and amazing fightbacks. Is that not transcending the physical? If you agree in the ability to ascending / transcend the physical, then surely you have to also admit that ALL religions allow for this based on faith.

Why use the very logic you hate being used against you now to counter those other religions? You believe. They believe. You can do feats that are not normal. They can too. You can heal yourself. They can too. Everything you claim to be able to do, they claim it too. You can understand the entire universe without the need of any proof. They do too. Why bother with any proof against any belief in that case, because the proof itself lies in the past, and thus you only question motive. So sure, you can question the motives of the Vatican and Saudi clerics, but you cannot question anyone’s beliefs (especially not with logic of the physical) since you do not allow the questioning of your own beliefs with those same tools.

Any religious follower can turn around and tell you, “Sure, the texts are far-fetched, but my experience with my God is not, and I cannot explain it, it’s a personal feeling between me and my God”. You haven’t followed their religion, so you don’t know, just as I haven’t followed yours and I don’t know when you claim it, and just as you haven’t followed science by being logical and present in the physical, you can’t judge science.

The evolution debunkers you point out are the God channel, a vedic site and newgeology? Those are some of the worst examples around. Besides, let’s use their simple logic against them - where are all the fruit flies of today in fossils? Where are all the humans? Where are the elephants? Think of every single of the millions of species we have around us, birds, insects, mammals, fish, etc. Do they actually suggest that billions upon billions of house flies and fruit flies lived in prehistoric times, and not even a “single” one was ever killed or trapped in a place where it could be fossilised? OK, fruit flies are tiny, what about the great whales or elephants, or giraffes? Not even a single one died and landed in a place that later dried out to find fossils? Not one single human (the way we know them) ever fell off a cliff and got fossilised? Not even a tooth? Oh yes, I forgot, they were “perfect”. Besides, what happened to all the imperfect humanoids whose remains we have found? Why did they die out? Where are all the dinosaurs and cockroach-cousins as big as cars? Forget that, where are all the weird plants species that are found in fossils? Why did the trees change?

As for what happened to the Dinosaurs – science has theories, but the definitive answer for now is “We don’t know”. However, apparently the Vedas have told you as much, why not enlighten the world? You would think enough of the Vedic followers would have at some point felt bad and said, “OK, I feel bad for all you idiots wasting billions of dollars on finding fossils, sit down, let me explain…” Why do you insist on pointing out where science itself says, “I may be wrong, but…” Only a fool thinks of himself as perfect, the wise admit to their own mistakes.

Please understand what you are suggesting, and look at the claims you make, and for once try some basic level logic, because whether you like it or not, the world runs on logic. The PC you will reply from works on logic, and logic is a good thing… Using Stephen Hawking’s example, we cannot yet explain the human mind or way of thinking, but we can the computer mind / intelligence. Why is it that as soon as you turn on computers, they do not look into the future? Why is it that everything follows the path of increasing time, never decreasing? Why is it when you shuffle a pack of cards, you never get them all nicely sorted according to suite and order? It’s called entropy, and yes it’s a theory, but easily detectable in the real world.

As for the Shruties, it’s wonderful that you have never found a flaw. However, have you for even one minute considered that it’s the doctrine that’s perfect, not the actual texts. Give people “freedom” and they don’t know what to do with it, and will generally still follow accepted beliefs. Even better, give people the freedom to interpret things as they please, and claim that all of the answers arrived at are right. Perfection! I don’t know much about the Vedas or the writers, but even I can tell you that they were great psychiatrists. Think of the average American today, who honestly believes he or she is the most free people on earth, from the bottom of their hearts, but I am sure even you will agree that they are not.

Besides, flaws are human, and even if there is a God, and he came down from heaven to pass on the knowledge of the Vedas to ordinary humans so that they could ascend the lower consciousness that plagued them, they certainly must have been distorted, and human error introduced before someone wrote them down. Where are these errors? But I suppose I am wasting my time, because it’s like asking a devout, true believer of a Catholic to point out the errors in the Bible! 

I replied your question about “Who are you” and threw it right back at you, but have yet to receive a response. You dodge logic whenever it is directed at you, yet try and use it against all religions. You ridicule science, yet use it as a crutch to bash other religions. It’s getting rather predictable and boring now. When you’re asked to explain this so called higher consciousness, the answer is it’s personal, when you say knowledge just flows into you, and you are asked to share these pearls of wisdom – so that we can quickly call up Stephen Hawking and tell him to stop everything that he’s thinking, because mediator has all the answers – we get silence, or excuses about how the universe doesn’t even exist in the physical. Why are you here playing in the muck with all of us lowly beings?

I know if I’d found the wondrous heaven of consciousness, that’s where’s I’d be. If I had lost all sense of “I” what would I care what some chaotic form of atoms thought of my views, and would they even be my views? 

As for presentiment, there are schools of thought (yes, belief not fact) that suggest that our bodies actually sense changes that our conscious mind does not, and our *sub-*conscious does, and these send warning signals. There is also enough evidence to suggest that it is often wrong, but we only remember it when it’s right… For example, when you see a dark alley and avoid it because the hairs on your neck stand up and you feel a tingling sensation – even animals have this. Now you didn’t go in to the alley and it is forgotten, unless of course you read in the paper the next day that someone was robbed or murdered in that alley. Then you remember it, and you remember it for life, because it becomes important, and a feeling of you being able to predict the future. This is a simplistic example. It’s also human nature to empathise. When a close friend dies, you suddenly remember feeling something weird at around the time they were breathing their last. More often than not, it’s just empathising in the moment, and your mind playing tricks on you, but sometimes with twins, this is actually seen. Enough twins have had accidents with their counterparts feeling nothing, yet in a few cases they have, and this is under investigation. Of course, we have no answers, but I am sure you do. Since you brought it up, why don’t you enlighten us – and please try not to veil it with quotes, we believe your integrity to not lie about what’s in the Vedas, instead, just  give us your understanding and explanation of why this is so in simple English. What use is knowledge if it’s not shared, right?

As for the laws of physics, even singularities and black holes are explainable – only mathematically, since we haven’t been to a black hole to take any measurements, or sent any probes into one. The day that happens, I am sure science will have more answers, but for now, they are theories. The older big bang theory suggests a creation event, however, new *theories* are trying to imagine space-time itself as curved, and spherical, thus having no beginning and no end, just like the earth has no edge. The laws of physics hold true in this universe, and there is no creation event, and thus no creator.

Even further research is being done into string theory that suggests 10 to 26 higher dimensions, which I am sure you will have already visited in your mind. However string theory could be terribly wrong, and may be a dead end investigation. Why don’t spiritual gurus come and help these scientists a bit by pointing them in the right direction with all of the knowledge that has flowed into them? 

Explain cyclic time, and does time move backwards in the vedic universe? If this is with respect to the expanding and contracting universe, some now believe that the universe isn’t really expanding or contracting, but in fact appears to be because space-time itself is spherical… as I stated before. Thus as, say, a hundred people move south from the north pole down longitudes, the distance is near zero when they are all at the poles, and the distance between people keeps increasing until they’re at the equator, and then seems to decrease as they pass it – this could be one possible explanation of the galaxies all moving apart from one another. Of course, as ever, the simple answer is, “We still don’t know”.

Since evolution and physics theories are fairytales according to you, what is the view of the Vedas on the subject – in English please, for us idiots? Feel free to use accepted scientific terms such as dark matter and energy also, so that we can grasp the concepts more easily.

I now await the examples of vedic superiority in explaining the universe, and not the state of mind that is personal and cannot be shared. After all, all of this flowing knowledge being drunk up by wise men must have brought about some fine creations in the history of mankind, and shouldn’t just be visible in fossils of 12k year old cities, there must be modern ways in which they’re contributing to mankind by imparting knowledge that can help us find our place in the universe – as a whole, not as individuals. I certainly hope it will not be more abstract examples, such as the physical is fake, practicality is for idiots, and you cannot understand unless you meditate type of responses. After all, losing sense of “I” would by very definition mean that the single individual cannot be the only benefactor, and should be able to teach others.

Also, your logic is again flawed in responses to others:

You are forgetting that the sciences don’t only use touch, taste, smell, vision and hearing, they also use “thinking”. A lot of the theories debunked by you are sheer examples of human ingenuity to imagine a past 20 billion years ago (which can never be measured), and thus they are in a very true sense, a higher consciousness. And yet they do it within the parameters of the world we live in, not fantasy. And again you go back to the big bang which would actually explain something like Brahma’s life cycle, but newer theories suggest that an “always existed” universe is more likely. My reasoning is above, but again remember this is my understanding, and I’m not even Stephen Hawking’s little left toe.

@whitestar: collective wisdom often comes from arguments. If you have theories, present them, and let the people who want to question it question them. For everyone who questions Einstein’s theories here, there will be someone questioning back. Thus it doesn’t require Einstein or Hawking to be present, and at the same time increases the knowledge of groups. Certainly better than sitting around thinking about something without any feedback whatsoever.

Chances of one of us winning the nobel prize, infinitesimally miniscule, chances of us all going away from this with new insights and ways of looking at things, pretty significant. It would be foolish to send in a research paper to a department of theoretical physics based on our current knowledge, but absolutely no harm in someone challenging the theory on the forum with their own understanding. If none of us can give that person a satisfactory answer, then we obviously do not know enough ourselves, and thus it will help us learn something.


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## Hrishi (Sep 12, 2013)

> What makes you assume so? Do I really care how the modern science theories work? Do I have to fit my understanding in their framework? What is the guarantee that the star which is some 10000 light years away from us is even existing right now? If, The light reached us after 10000 years, then it simply means that the light we see right now belongs to the star that existed 10000 years back in the history. Moreover, there is a concept of bending of light due to gravity. What is the guarantee that the light that is percieved from the north/front is actually coming from the north/front? Isn't it possible that it came from east/left or west/right or perhaps from behind, like lines of magnetic forces as shown in a bar magnet diagram?
> 
> Anyways, mosquito can evolve too. But why not its eating/sucking habits then? Why still blood, why not human pus?


*@mediator.*
I feel You should care about how modern scientific theories work. Not all but majority of them , because even the Vedas you believe in also support a lot of those theories.
The finite universe that you are not ready to consider yet ( I assume ) , should be finite even according to the logic that can be derived from Vedas.
From the basic understanding of Vedas which I have , it says that there is always an eternal space , ( Called Vishnu ) inside which multiple universe bloom ( universe here refers to Brumhaand ). Since these brahmas/brumahaands cannot occupy entire Vishnu , ( which is the eternal space , null void ,or something that was there forever before and after (Singularity in science )) and also requires other Bramhands to exist . Now since according to Vedas if Brahmands are not the only thing that exist everywhere forever, then it shouldn't be infinite for sure.
It needs to expand and shrink. I see a lot of theories of science which runs parallel to Vedas.
The Big-Bang seems a part of it.

Few Centuries Ago , it was comparatively easily to find new concepts and discover new laws.Back then it was not guided by the complex mathematical model of physics which is prevelant in modern science/physics these days.
It was easy to challenge old beliefs and consideration/superstitions. In modern times , one has to be well versed to question any theories.Majority of modern theories are complex mathematics which for sure is not everyone's cup of tea.


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 12, 2013)

@Raaabo,i take debates to be of varying degree of nature(from light to serious nature) & my stand regarding necessary qualifications to backup claims made is mostly for serious ones.in a light atmosphere debate sure one can question Einstein theories but then he/she has to be corrected by giving a correct & full link to theory suggesting to first read it fully & then come back(at which point most will simply retreat) & the few who do come back a quick glance at their arguments will reveal whether they genuinely misunderstood something(try your best to explain in layman terms) or just trying to be over-smart(no way other than ignoring) & that would be the end of it.

now some debates drift toward a more serious nature & current one is a good example of this.now here i stand by what i said earlier.you are right about collective wisdom often coming from arguments but it is based on the assumption that arguments themselves are of high quality which again requires a certain level of proficiency on the part of those debating in such a manner.

in the end i would like to ask your views about a certain hypothetical situation & would appreciate your reply:
you are the head of a TV channel & invite a few world renowned scholars to debate with some extremists from a particular religion on a highly publicised live show.during the show situation got tense & extremists became extremely vocal & their nature of arguments became inflammatory & passion arousing.some persons asked you to stop/cancel the show as there is a risk of clashes in certain areas because of the broadcasting of such views.
question:would you consider the request to cancel the show because you think you have a responsibility towards the society as a whole because of your position as a TV channel head or would you decline the request stating that your job is only to provide a public platform & it is a free for all debate & everyone has the freedom of speech even if their arguments are not rational,misleading & inflammatory in nature?

i am asking this question only to you because you are the only one here with proven real life authority & thus associated responsibility by virtue of your position as editor of one of the biggest technological indian magazine.you have the power to do any modification as you deem suitable here & the credentials to back it up yet you haven't done anything.*i am not saying to delete posts or warn members but even something as trivial as an added bold lettered disclaimer at the end of some posts stating your decision to ignore anything said above with some suggested links to study would be a nice touch.i won't mind if this happens to my posts too as i would rather see some authoritative behaviour from someone like you rather than seeing you engaging in a fruitless debate.if someone has the authority then it is not just for show but is meant to be used otherwise it is no better than no authority at all.*


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## rhitwick (Sep 12, 2013)

mediator said:


> @Rhitwick - You may call me whatever you like. But somehow, your posts sound to me a like a long lost bro who is angry at me because I did not invite him to my birthday party!



“I'm for truth, no matter who tells it. I'm for justice, no matter who it is for or against. I'm a human being, first and foremost, and as such I'm for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” -Malcom X.

And, my addition to this quote "I'm for truth no matter how many birthday parties I stay uninvited"
b/w I stay right beside the party venue and the music from the party is very exciting and flows to my house too. And, I'm loving that music and dancing on my own to its tune. 

On direct note in case you did not get what I'm telling here; you asked questions, I answered, I asked questions and you did not. You 'demand' people to come to your level to understand your logic but you won't do the same when asked.
You ask people to doubt their logics, their teachings and practices but not do the same to you.
What kind of debate is it then if you can't have a open mind.

Practice what you preach man. Doubt yourself too, doubt the teachings of Veda, Upanishada or Gita. For once, for even one full long minute try to imagine what if all you know are wrong. Tell us what you see then?


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## mediator (Sep 12, 2013)

@Raaabo - Again, since you have no interest in the subject, it would be a waste to explain or to repeat. You have judged me throughout your posts ignoring much of what I posted and the questions I put forward only to tell me what Evolution and Big Bang means, their updates, science may progress in the future and overall dodging my questions in your own terms.

I'm not here to force my understanding on anyone, for I'd always want people to question the thought I put in the flow, with an intention of understanding rather than saddism based on lack of interest and conditioning, and instead of superficially telling me what modern science means, just judging Indian science to be "irrelevant, belief system" and then acknowledging they haven't read it much or have 1/1000th of interest compared to mine.

You are free to assume as much as possible if I'm doing it out of some ego, or "know it all attitude". I'm not going to  tell you!

I can also judge you to be arrogant, egotistical, misusing your admin rights etc etc. Its very easy. But like I told you before, I'm least interested in personalising.



			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> And again you go back to the big bang which would actually explain something like Brahma’s life cycle,


Are you trying to use modern science to verify the Indian knowledge? The two are different in the context. Again you ignored the linear concept of time provided by modern science and the cyclic nature as per Vedic worldview. The moment you include a shape, a limitedness it is bound to draw curiosity to towards the center of that shape/limitedness/finite. Can the modern science even find out the center of the Universe by the logic of Big-Bang? Moreover, since everything is receding away from each other, where is the absolute frame of reference?

In contrast, brahma is infinite, with no end or beginning (space). Even time and space are a part of brahma and cannot be used to analyze brahma and hence we say Brahma's cycle. Time and space are not something that is applicable on Brahma but reside within! This cycle of brahma cannot be deduced by living in the world of brahma but by transcending beyond.



			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> As for presentiment, there are schools of thought (yes, belief not fact) that suggest that our bodies actually sense changes that our conscious mind does not, and our sub-conscious does, and these send warning signals. *There is also enough evidence to suggest that it is often wrong, but we only remember it when it’s right*… For example, when you see a dark alley and avoid it because the hairs on your neck stand up and you feel a tingling sensation – even animals have this.


There is a generalization here, a research which has been conducted assuming all people to be the same and totally ignoring the consciousness in its truest meaning. Hence why I asked to read the "Colloquy of Indra and Agastya". One you understand that, half of your problems with undertanding consciousness would be solved.



@Rishi - You may find support to modern science theories from Vedic world view and you may find contradictions as well. Like I said, a poetry is one which encompasses different levels of messages. One which can pass various messages, has a higher style of writing. Therefore, Vedic worldview use words like Saraswati which was a river at the time of author's existence at physical world. The poetry may use mathematics concepts as well to draw a higher reference. Hence, we would have mathematics as well as higher meaning. But, only those who have a higher level of consciousness would understanding the highest meaning of that poetry. 

The Britishers came and saw animal killing, distorted the meaning of sacrifice to killing and thought Indians to be worshipping horses, cows etc. Similarly, Samkhya can be drawn out of Veda and so can Advaita, dvaita etc at higher levels. 

Vishnu in the context you provided is not the waters, but that which is lying dormant and "sleeping" in the waters of infinity. Hence you'd find Vishnu's idol where Vishnu is sleeping on Anant-Nag over endless waters and from that dormant, which cannot be known by ordinary consciousness, rises the world of brahma!

It doesn't mean Vishnu is better or Brahma, for that very equation is abrahamic in its outlook. It is just an explanation of the higher reality itself.


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## rhitwick (Sep 12, 2013)

Its time!

Time to say 'VANISH'!!!


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## theterminator (Sep 12, 2013)

meanwhile BJP keeps getting hounded by the "communal" tag though Modi's gujarat is free of riots since a decade whereas everybody is seeing what is happening in Uttar pradesh ..muzaffarnagar is only one incident of the many , although smaller in proportion, in just 1.5 years... Yet nobody, especially congress & even the media , is even bothering to associate "communal" tag to SP.


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 12, 2013)

^^everybody in UP knows SP is communal & BSP takes no nonsense approach on communalism even if failing on all other fronts.it's just that people here are willing to pay the price by selecting either party when time comes.


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## Raaabo (Sep 12, 2013)

Well said whitestar. And yes, I can see the point you made earlier, however, I have faith in human intellect. Those with a true understanding will understand who has what aim with their posts. The ones who don't understand might never, and the ones who are communal will remain so. The idea is to give the few open minded people something additional to think about, as the close minded shall remain so. It's also evolutionary, and although we can be sad about not seeing an end to close mindedness in our lifetime, humanity will evolve past this as well, as it has done other setbacks. Just a few hundred or a thousand years more, and all of this will be irrelevant. Thus my usage of that word so often.


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## whitestar_999 (Sep 12, 2013)

i appreciate your viewpoint about this & let's hope that you stand correct in future though like you said most probably not in your lifetime.


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## Hrishi (Sep 12, 2013)

mediator said:


> _In contrast, brahma is infinite, with no end or beginning (space_). Even time and space are a part of brahma and cannot be used to analyze brahma and hence we say Brahma's cycle. Time and space are not something that is applicable on Brahma but reside within! This cycle of brahma cannot be deduced by living in the world of brahma but by transcending beyond.
> 
> 
> There is a generalization here, a research which has been conducted assuming all people to be the same and totally ignoring the consciousness in its truest meaning. Hence why I asked to read the "Colloquy of Indra and Agastya". One you understand that, half of your problems with undertanding consciousness would be solved.
> ...



I never intend to say which is better , I only intend to question that *how come the Brahma be infinite if it Born or risen out of something*.
As per Rig Ved , Vishnu is considered as the containment/vessel where Brahma prospers and expands.
Whereas Shiva is considered as to be the destroyer of the world created."

But there is no mention that the universe or the world is infinite , if there is something infinity then it's the vessel in which World is born and the number of infinite cycles of creation and destruction.



> some Puranas describe a universe that is cyclical or oscillating and infinite in time. The universe is described as a cosmic egg that cycles between expansion and total collapse. It expanded from a concentrated form — a point called a Bindu. The universe, as a living entity, is bound to the perpetual cycle of birth, death, and rebirth.



BTW , if it were not to be understood by a human being , how come this theory was deduced itself ?? Gods came and wrote it ?? Somebody must have thought about it , just like any other human being can think , but only in the higher level of consciousness.


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## theterminator (Sep 12, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> ^^everybody in UP knows SP is communal & BSP takes no nonsense approach on communalism even if failing on all other fronts.it's just that people here are willing to pay the price by selecting either party when time comes.



coz they dont have options other than sp, bsp


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## Anorion (Sep 13, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> Swami Vivekanada was an atheist in his early life. Even his being 'atheist" was mostly what you call 'abrahamic' way of questioning. Then something happened and he changed; he became the most renowned person in 'Hindu' dharma and helped spreading the teachings of Veda,Upanishada,Gita in the world. I'm, for a long, time trying to search the reason of that change; every document I get, claims there had been a miracle and he changed. None exactly tells and unfortunately Swamiji himself did not document it anywhere. May be that's the missing link in what could have been the most important evolution in Hindu-dharma.


one of his ideals was Buddha. what he did was not theoretical or spiritual, he put all that stuff into practice.


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## mediator (Sep 14, 2013)

rishi said:
			
		

> I only intend to question that *how come the Brahma be infinite if it Born or risen out of something*.




Anyways, Congratulations to all the Modi fans and fanboys for the wave to 'Modi'fy has been initiated!

For those who need a little break from Russel Peters for the weekend can enjoy => *www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jqXeNO2DWDA

Laughter Guaranteed!


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## Skyh3ck (Sep 14, 2013)

What theory worked for Swami Vivekanands transformation towards vedas, may or may not work for others, we all have our capacity of knowledge, how much we can learn, how much we understand, and much much we carry in life ahead......

listen theres always a perfect timing for everything, all gets their share whne the time is right...

i used to go lots of at lots of temple, met many new people, read lots of spiritual books during my school, college days.... but i always felt that its not going in right direction even though i was following world renowed theories of spiritualy..

and lately when i lost all hopes suddenly, it started to make some sense to me,


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## Hrishi (Sep 14, 2013)

mediator said:


> Anyways, Congratulations to all the Modi fans and fanboys for the wave to 'Modi'fy has been initiated!
> 
> For those who need a little break from Russel Peters for the weekend can enjoy => *www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jqXeNO2DWDA
> 
> Laughter Guaranteed!



Not sure what you mean by that emoticon. But if you haven't realized what I meant to say then I simply can't help.
All I questioned was the simple fact mentioned in puranas ,



> some *Puranas describe a universe that is cyclical or oscillating and infinite in time*. The universe is described as a cosmic egg that cycles between *expansion and total collapse*. It expanded from a concentrated form — a point called a *Bindu*. The universe, as a living entity, is bound to the perpetual cycle of birth, death, and rebirth.



Infinite things don't Expand or Shrink.If it's infinite then the theory of it expanding from a Bindu is wrong.


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## Raaabo (Sep 14, 2013)

Interesting stuff to ponder over for those of us still with an open mind:

*www.livescience.com/11326-top-10-missing-links.html

And of course the funny Cracked way of saying important stuff:

*www.cracked.com/article_19213_7-animals-that-are-evolving-right-before-our-eyes.html


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## mediator (Sep 14, 2013)

^If you call that 'interesting stuff' then here's 2 cents from me as well => the fertility rate of humans is decreasing, metropolitan boys can't stand in sun for 2 hours and getting bald early, military dogs can sense bombs, crows can play soccer, wolves can howl to make babies sleep etc and just youtube, you'll surely find a lot of interesting stuff.


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## Raaabo (Sep 14, 2013)

Yes and also Youtube for ancient aliens and you will see interpretations of the vedas that suggest everything from them being about alien races breeding man and how they're actually almost exactly like the abrahamic religions just different interpretations, charlie bit my finger and lol cats, what's your point?


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## rhitwick (Sep 14, 2013)

^Erich Von Daniken


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## Raaabo (Sep 14, 2013)

Ah yes I have read all daniken's books - classic example of fiction masquerading as science to garner extra eyeballs.


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## mediator (Sep 14, 2013)

The point is very simple, but still

Mutation and Adaptation -> OK, Growing of limbs, eyes, organs etc in front of our eyes -> assumption; not measureable, verifiable, proven
Red Shift -> OK, Universe concentrated into a concentrated dot -> assumption; not measureable, verifiable or proven
Two guys looking similar -> OK, They are brothers -> Assumption
You are bald, he is bald, we are bald -> OK, everyone is bald -> generalization
Paintings, tools in caves -> OK, cavemen were ignorant -> assumption
Paintings, tools in found in households today also -> OK, cavemen exist today -> ???
Your link -> Talks about adaptation, mutation -> OK, evolution -> define evolution!
Mediator -> 10 kg in gym yesterday, 100 kg tomorrow, evolution -> ? NO, thats simply adaptation
Crow Playing soccer -> Adaptation
Dogs in army -> Adaptation
Dogs Dancing -> Adaptation


Point is pretty simple, only if we could throw the burqa that hides us from the Sun! Now don't give me that superstition that evolution takes much time and hence I asked you to know about E.Coli experiment and new science "research" that evolution happens at faster rate than earlier thought just like we have surprises in the case of "faster expanding universe" and the "mysterious" dark energy to explain it. 

Try understanding what mutation and adaptation are. They are a reality indeed. But observing two fossils and using mutation and adaptation as logic to say species evolved or grew limbs, organs etc is simply illogical!


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## heidi2521 (Sep 14, 2013)

mediator said:


> The point is very simple, but still
> 
> Mutation and Adaptation -> OK, Growing of limbs, eyes, organs etc in front of our eyes -> assumption; not measureable, verifiable, proven
> Red Shift -> OK, Universe concentrated into a concentrated dot -> assumption; not measureable, verifiable or proven
> ...



Dude, what?

Mutation refers to the errors that occur during genetic duplication. Growing of limbs etc. are the results of mutation. 

Redshift is absolutely measurable (Unless you wish to claim that we cannot measure the frequency of the light coming from more distant galaxies)

Here we see Red evolving into Yellow. Notice that at no single point does the colour stop being red. It slowly adapts to a yellower shade pixel by pixel, each nigh indistinguishable from the previous one, but in the end you have two different colours. 

*i.imgur.com/ZkCZ3C2.png

Recommended reading:

*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Brief_History_of_Time
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Show_on_Earth:_The_Evidence_for_Evolution


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## mediator (Sep 14, 2013)

^Read my post again. It does not differ from mine except at this part, 



			
				dead5 said:
			
		

> Growing of limbs etc. are the results of mutation.


Here I'm not talking of random probabilities.

Read -> Myths and Misconceptions | Evolution FAQ


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## Raaabo (Sep 14, 2013)

Point is pretty simple

Vedas are very old > Ok, that they lead to answers of the universe or a higher consciousness > assumption, ego and not verifiable or proven. It's simply illogical!


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## mediator (Sep 14, 2013)

As usualy => incorrect!

Vedas are old -> ok
Lead to answers of the universe -> True and False
Why false ? -> Because they enable you to experience and gather the answers which "cannot be contained to a book, explained by words, minds or analyzed in the realm of space and time". It enables you to transcend beyond it! It is a science which "proven, measurable and verifiable" and those who do authorize that science after questioning, experiencing etc are called astik. Like I said, the infinite play of shakti cannot be contained in a book!

But Hey, we don't have any interest in the subject at all. We acknowledge it openly, but we will still judge as we like without even reading, let alone understanding, let alone experiencing! And so, the blind man tries to present his point of view on the entire gamut of color spectrum. How scientific!

The argument of "very old" is really wise indeed. Its like saying one's own father is ignorant because he is old!


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## Raaabo (Sep 14, 2013)

As usual => incorrect!

Lead to the answers of the universe -> false until proven true, none of which you have proven ever. You believe it with all your heart and mind, no doubt, but personal belief does not make logical evidence. It almost seems like you point to random links without reading them yourself - for example the last one you posted is completely pro evolution and debunks the very myths you are trying to propagate. 

Unlike you, I actually try and see all view points, and am even reading some of the books you recommended currently, and so far at least (apart from purely religious bias) no logical reasoning person talks of them the way you do.

You use logic selectively, trying to find flaws in scientific theory using the very logic of scientific minds and their own findings, but then refuse to question your own unscientific beliefs using the same logic. You are here to try and win an argument, and nothing more, and it shows, and I'm happy, because even more people will read this and laugh at your very ideas and illogical beliefs, and that is Natural Selection at work, and yes it's been at work for billions of years.

The more an animal gets stuck in quicksand, the more it struggles and tries pointless things, and the faster it sinks. 

As for fathers, grandfathers, and earlier generations, I don't know about where you're from, but the very nature of scientific knowledge is to increase with generations. Younger generations surpass the older ones. My grandfathers would have known almost nothing about modern science and theories or proofs of today unless they were in the field themselves, if they were alive, and I would have a lot of fun explaining it to them. I don't know how many adults sit around trying to figure out the universe by asking the general population of elders instead of scientists (age is immaterial, only knowledge and logic matter). Ah yes, but then that's the very problem with India, too much respect for age and traditions, instead of good will and knowledge.

How wise our elders are... honour killings, ordering that rapists marry the women they rape, order a 5 year old to be wedded to the son of the 40 year old who raped her, dowry, female infanticide, and clinging to seats of power. But all this will be "incorrect" just because it doesn't support your argument.


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## mediator (Sep 19, 2013)

A must watch!

*www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQdrebTcuhM

So 7 people voted for Amul Baby?  Damn, he/she is really popular amongst the 'intellectuals'.


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## Anorion (Sep 20, 2013)

^wow pretty clear explanation on how money is siphoned out, sand mining, coal and 2g spectrum scams
E-governance to reduce corruption is a solid idea
Hydrogen fuel cells to solve power crisis - should take more time, dont accept that it is oil company conspiracy holding these technologies back
countering chinese taunts by controlling sea routes of containers... No comments

Ram killing Vaali... Dont accept his version, because what vaali did to sugriva, sugriva did to vaali using ram (take kingdom and wife).

You seem to have problem with organs evolving. This is from Climbing Mount Improbable by Richard Dawkins, answers all creationist questions on evolution


> It has been authoritatively estimsted that eyes have evolved no fewer than forty times, and probably more than sixty times, infependently in various parts of the animal kingdom. In some cases these eyes use radically different principles. Nine distinct principles have been recognized among the forty to sixty independently evolved eyes


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## mediator (Sep 20, 2013)

The whole problem with a discussion with the fans of evolution theory is that anything put up as a question is seen as an attempt by the "creationists" and hence a reply to the promoters of creationist ideology and again people 'tagged' without understanding their questions. 

You can find my questions on evolution in the last 10 replies.


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## rhitwick (Sep 20, 2013)

^Your questions were answered by Raaboo. But he too asked few. Why not do a role-reversal here and this time you answer some? Huh?


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## mediator (Sep 21, 2013)

All I was told was 

- You are this and you are that
- I will ban you!
- Links to wikipedia
- Chanting, promotion and glorification of Evolution theory, without understanding the meaning behind, in reply to my question over Evolution
- Same with big bang
- Strawman Arguments e.g Prove me you exist? => " Hey you don't exist either, this debate is over then"
- Assumptions based on overdose of generalizations

...and then revealing that the wise guy was actually trolling because he/she assumed some "arrogance" in my posts, and further wasting my time by stating that he has no interest in the science of consciousness and has hardly read any of the works.

If you call that "answering", then sure you got your browny points, perhaps pending promotions & rewards for persistent sycophancies, and so I humbly surrender for my inability to "answer" in a similar manner. 

I guess it should be marked in bolds that Fight Club is not for fragile babies, including the Gods of the Forum!


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## Anorion (Sep 21, 2013)

Its brownie points and what exactly is the problem with evolution? 
Fossil records are just one clue, the evidence is in dna, in morphologies of living creatures, and in every organ and limb also. You hiccup? Thats from when your ancestors crawled out of water. You have goosebumps? Thats bristling to react to dangers from when we had loads of body hair. You can drink milk as an adult? Congrats! You are the only mammal that can do that.


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## rhitwick (Sep 21, 2013)

@MEdiator you sound like a whining baby now. Admit and accept that you lost the debate last time. Move on man. Stop trolling here.


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## mediator (Sep 21, 2013)

@Anorion - Its going to be a repeat. By all means, you may answer these questions of mine "without" glorifying the "modern science", "how it works" and simply answering the context I ask you.

1. So we found different varieties of fossils and made an assumption that "evolution happened"? A land species which looked similar in structure to the air one and hey, we found a missing link? When was the first flight from land to air evolution happened? Is that recorded or an assumption connoting a time scale? Is that measurable, verifiable and proven? If thats the case, then perhaps humans should have evolved to be resistant to "mosquito bites" alone or does mutation, adaptation and survival of the fittest are completely silent on the diseases caused by food habits, deficiency of vitamins, minerals, protiens etc, heat, cold, insect bites etc? 

Lets assume, the mosquitoes evolved too, why did not their eating habits evolve i.e blood, change to something like human pus or anything else?

2. Suppose, evolution (e.g water to land) does happen, is it necessary for the evolved species to lose its earlier abilities and habits like living under the water and eating habits? If its survival of the fittest, then we the evolved species and further evolved ones should have retained both the earlier and developed abilities to enable increased chances of survival!

3. Regarding half-eye or incremental make-up of limbs, no one has succefully explained as to why it came into being. Yes, I keep hearing an assumption "because the species need to see". But how and when was the first fragment of eye formed, what was its capability, in which species was it formed?

4. And so the big-bang happened. What was before that t=0? Where did that concentrated chunk of matter come from? Why did it concentrate in the first place? Remember, the "mysterious dark energy" which is trying to "explain" the faster expanding universe is contrary to the "contracting universe" side of the theory! This is what I call a research work, analogous to sample testing in marketing and not really a science! You observe and you "assume and make conclusions" and when those conclusions don't fit in the newly revealed play of Shakti, you do your homework again and make new "conclusions and assumptions" telling others "This is how modern science progresses"!

First, it was assumed that there is "contracting and expanding" universe. Now when universe is observed to be expanding, they deduce something called "dark energy" and used scientific words like "mysterious" to explain it. What is the guarantee that this universe will continue to expand even faster? Suppose by any chance a deceleration is observed, are we going to rip off the "dark energy" and go back to "contracting universe" or have a pudding of both?


Do you really think that universe is that predictable that it will continue to abide by your observations and conclusions?


5. If you really think, this Universe is finite, then what is beyond this Universe? What is the shape of this finite. Is this finite rotating and revolving around something higher (lets call it X1)? What is the shape of that X1? Is that finite also rotating and revolving around something higher (lets call it X2)? Do you really think this recursive question/series is finite alone? 

6. Do you really think that the modern science has understood "gravity" completely? Can you explain why gravity happens? Can you further explain that which enables gravity to be "measurable, provable and verifiable"? Can you further dissect those terminologies to be "measurable, provale and verifiable" and so on?

7. Please prove that you exist!

8. The whole problem with evolution is that it has a start beyond which it doesn't explain anything about life, then we go back to big-bang and again t=0 beyond which we do not know anything. That start remains an assumption itself hardly "measurable, verifiable and provable". Its not a problem with the evolution also, but the mentality of those pretending to be scientific by chanting science theories without understanding them. Earlier, the "modern research" undermined ghee, so the herd started saying "ewwww". Now when its being repackaged, approved by "newer researches" and sold as "clarified butter", the herd is looking it in awe!

*www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u9hChQtt6I

Who ever is interested can answer these ignored questions of mine in their own simple terms, without glorifying and promoting the modern science, making strawman's and then saying "Hey, even Vedas talk about Hiranyagarbha". Hiranyagarbha does not mean the same thing as Big-Bang! 

PS - I'm anti-creationist ideology!

--------
@Rhitwick - Yeah, I lost man. You can now run to your God, you sycophancy with, for a free kandy and a pat on the back! Why I'm picturing of Amul baby now?


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## Anorion (Sep 21, 2013)

yep, repeat telecast. thought I answered some of these questions already. 

1. we didnt just find different fossils, we found simple fossils in old rocks and complex fossils in new rocks. fossils are not the only basis for studying evolution, it can be done through dna and comparing the embryos of animals as well. yes we can use fossil records and dna to guess when the transition from land to air for birds happened. keep in mind that bats and also evolved flight. we are still figuring out if feathers evolved before flight and it had any function. this is when a missing link is discovered that proves things one way or the other. most of the record is there, and fossil records consist mostly of links, not missing links. 

1.1 the relationship between any two organisms in the ecosystem remains the same, because the rate of evolution of one is not more than the other. flower and bee, cheetah and deer, man and mosquito - tend to be in the same relative position despite hard efforts to evolve. It's called red queen theory from alice in wonderland where the red queen makes alice run, but alice stays in the same place. why mosquitoes did not evolve to drink human pus, well, humans dont have pus flowing all through the body, they dont need to do that. maybe they need to get to the next level in exoskeleton hardness and zapper evasion, but pus digestion is surely low in the list of priorities. 

2. whales are best example of this. they went from water to land back to water. on land, they did retain some traits of their water ancestors, and when they went back to water, then they evolved out of land traits, because they didnt need any of it. maybe they decide to come back to land, they will evolve all of it again. No, they will not evolve into flying whales that can dominate earth, water and air, because then they would be kaiju and we would need to build giant robots to destroy them. There are costs involved with every decision. just because it might seem better for mosquitoes to have eyes the size of humans (they can obviously see better!) it would not happen because then they would pay the cost of being seen too easily and not being able to fly. 

3. Yep this has been explained clearly. Any book by Richard Dawkins has an explanation of this. Basically, one light sensitive cell is better than no eye. Just that there is light and there is no light is an advantage. then two photosensitive cells are better than one... then three... four. From there it begins building up across generations. peripheral or binocular vision, seeing in colours, being more accurate all come in small steps over hundreds of thousands of years. some fish have evolved extra eyes despite already having eyes. the first fragment of the eye, has formed independently in 40-60 species. 

4. Hindu scriptures have concept of Bindu to explain it. t=0 is where our universe and science starts. what was before in no way affects our continuum, and we can only wildly speculate what was there, but not prove it, even with maths. the framework of science is the universe as we know it, what may or may not be before is question that cannot be answered using scientific methods. 

5. universe is medhu vada shaped. only the outer hard layer, not the interiors. imagine the outermost layer of the medhu vada as a universe. where does it start? where does it end? it is finite without beginning or end  draw a line with sketchpen along surface to see what would happen if you went in a straight line forever (pls not to eat afterward)

6. nope, not understood completely, efforts are on though and consolidating macro and micro observations into one theory is the agenda. 

7. I think therefore I am

8. The first few seconds after big bang, we know exactly what happened. What happened before, already explained, does not concern us in any way. Militant atheism, trampling people's beliefs, agreed that it's not cool. At the same time arguing against them without forming reasonable arguments is pretty much the same thing. dont worry about what some western reports may have to say about ayurveda or ghee or turmeric... those are just fringe reports, probably with their own marketing agenda, not to be taken seriously irrespective of whether or not they prove anything.


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## rhitwick (Sep 21, 2013)

mediator said:


> @Rhitwick - Yeah, I lost man. You can now run to your God, you sycophancy with, for a free kandy and a pat on the back! Why I'm picturing of Amul baby now?


Dude, seriously?!

Its not me, its you who has found GOD by your 'phony' science. And the way you are seeing 'Amul baby' everywhere, may be that is the God you've found!


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## Raaabo (Sep 21, 2013)

Also, that's all you chose to read in my posts. You are just arguing for no reason, and many of us actually have lives. I just became a father, and my son and wife are more important, not to mention forum being hacked and fixing that. How hard is it to understand simple english? If you say prove that I exist, I say first you prove that you do, and give you the explanation of me existing. You claim circular time to try and prove reincarnation, I say prove it. No reply. You try and debunk evolution, and then give a link to a site that PROVES evolution and actually answers all the same doubts you're raising, so it's obvious you are just clutching at straws, and you will never see it, but everyone else can, and that's all that matters. Happy ranting away, dig the hole deeper


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## mediator (Sep 21, 2013)

^You are confused. I didn't give the site on evolution faq to "prove evolution", but simply to show the basic premises of evolution theory on which it is based. The evolutionists should know the evolution theory in detail atleast before they speak and hence my link on evolution faq! Its a simple point, where the person should atleast know the fundamental aspects of evolution before speaking for it. I have earlier gave links to Quran also, will you now call me pro-Quran or confusion with Quran? 

Anyways, Congratulations for becoming a father. May you have a blessed life and a bright future for your family. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


@Anorion : 

1. I'm quite aware of what we found. The DNA you talk about is the very basis that also debunks evolution in the modern times, let alone the embryos of the animals. But you have still not connected to the central point of the question. How can we say with certainty that the two fossils with similar traits "infer" evolution? Here, the "missing link" is nothing but again an assumption based on "what we want to picture". Figuring out weather the feather evolved before/after will still lead to an assumption, if you ponder deep over the matter and hence my analogy over two similar looking boys where a human mind can make an assumption that they might be brothers.

Having records of the fossils to argue over evolution, hence, is the biggest folly or superstition to assuming that there was evolution.

But since you have brought DNA into the picture you may read the updates : 

*www.icr.org/article/evolutions-best-argument-has-become/
James Watkins: Does DNA disprove evolution?

You can find yourself how one of the favourite arguments of evolutionists, i.e DNA, debunks evolution itself!

You singled out over my argument of human pus literally regarding mosquitoes. It could have been human fat, toxins etc.

2. Again, you are singling out my question to selective species i.e whales, where they cannot live fully on the land. I'm talking about the species which have supposedly evolved from the sea to land, have been fully enabled to live on land. Now is it necessary for the evolved species to lose its earlier abilities and habits like living under the water and eating habits? If its survival of the fittest, then we the evolved species and further evolved ones should have retained both the earlier and developed abilities to enable increased chances of survival! 

Its not about "breathing" abilities "only" that I'm talking about, but overall abilities like mating, moving, percieving (perception of smell, sight, taste etc in water as compared to that on land), communicating etc.

3. I have not talked about advantages of eye. But what, how and when enabled the species of "develop" the single fragment of eye, the eyelid, the nerves behind and image percieving system from the eye? The very argument that talks of natural selection and survival of the fittest has immense traces of "intellgent design" behind and higher intelligence that evolutionists don't want to talk about.

So in the pursuit/evolution of the eye, what was formed first: The eye, the nerves behind, iris, pupil, the sensors? 

Can we for 100% certainty say that this is "observable, measurable, verifible, proven"?

4. Please don't talk on subjects you have not interest in like "Bindu, Hinduism". You may publish verses that talk as such, with there proper verse numbers, pointing towards the sanskrit for me to verify.

Coming back, I agree with what you have stated for the rest in this point and this is where we establish the "limitation" of the modern science. We have basically narrowed our own thinking to what the modern science talks about and hence we cannot percieve what lies beyond! It is at this point where the concept of zero and infinite also come into the picture. here t=0 is not the "concept of zero" I'm talking about.

In a thoughtless state of meditation there is no thought and hence nothing manifesting. There is absolutely nothing. We cannot really find a measure, the depth, a relative framework.  It cannot be called as existence as no singular thought can be experienced in that state, or in simple words nothing seems to be existing, nor can it be called as non-existence as the state itself is an experience!

Try to go beyond the realms of modern science, by deconditioning yourself from everything you know otherwise we will be stuck to what we have been taught and not to what we can observe and ponder ourselves. 

5. Try to apply the same logic to earth and you'll yourself refute it. Yes, we can go out of earth. Do you really think we cannot go out of finite? If universe is finite, then what stops us from going out of that finite?

Where is the centre of that finite? Since everything is moving away from each other, where is the absolute frame of reference in terms of speed and position? You can measure your speed as to how you walk on earth. But that is relative to earth. Similarly, speed of earth can be found relative to sun, sun with galaxy, galaxy to something higher etc. Where/What is the "absolute" reference which doesn't need any higher reference?

Once you understand that, you'll also observe that speed of light is also in relative terms, something that not many scientists will tell you or you'll find on internet. Where can we find the absolute static, the absolute framework?

The terms "start" and "end" seem to create a communication gap, I guess. I'm not talking of start/end as in a finite shape or a circle where the measurement or analysis is being done by traversing over the circumference. Obviously, there is no start or end in that regard. But a finite shape, circle/ellipse etc does have a diameter, radious, centre etc. You can infer the "start/end" to the diameter then, in the context of my question, and furthering on the center of the universe with absolute framework/static point.

6. I'm glad you didn't say modern science "will" find it.

7. Can you prove that it is "you" who think?


Again, I would like you to re-read my earlier questions a bit more carefully.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> 1. So we found different varieties of fossils and made an assumption that "evolution happened"? A land species which looked similar in structure to the air one and hey, we found a missing link? When was the first flight from land to air evolution happened? Is that recorded or an assumption connoting a time scale? Is that measurable, verifiable and proven? If thats the case, then perhaps humans should have evolved to be resistant to "mosquito bites" alone or does mutation, adaptation and survival of the fittest are completely silent on the diseases caused by food habits, deficiency of vitamins, minerals, protiens etc, heat, cold, insect bites etc?
> 
> Lets assume, the mosquitoes evolved too, why did not their eating habits evolve i.e blood, change to something like human pus or anything else?
> 
> ...


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## rhitwick (Sep 21, 2013)

@mediator, come on man, get a life. why do you need answers for same questions from each single member that opposed your views here?

Go out and help Modi to campaign for votes in Bihar.


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## Sarath (Sep 21, 2013)

Modi Rahul DNA and evolution...don't know what exactly is happening here.



mediator said:


> 1. So we found different varieties of fossils and made an assumption that "evolution happened"? A land species which looked similar in structure to the air one and hey, we found a missing link? When was the first flight from land to air evolution happened? Is that recorded or an assumption connoting a time scale? Is that measurable, verifiable and proven? If thats the case, then perhaps humans should have evolved to be resistant to "mosquito bites" alone or does mutation, adaptation and survival of the fittest are completely silent on the diseases caused by food habits, deficiency of vitamins, minerals, protiens etc, heat, cold, insect bites etc?
> 
> Lets assume, the mosquitoes evolved too, why did not their eating habits evolve i.e blood, change to something like human pus or anything else?



I found this line quite interesting. Especially with reference to mosquito resistance. Well, to start with evolution is a very slow process and it is difficult to tell exactly when the change has taken place but you, yourself have reminded me of an excellent example. 

Now in Africa, sickle cell anemia is more prevalant than other regions. Although it is a defect it is not as fatal as malaria. But, in people suffering from sickle cell anaemia, the malarial parasite is unable to infect them properly due to the abnormal RBC (=sickle cell RBC). This has led to an increase in the number of sickle cell patients or prevalence since the disease in fact is life saving for them. Now this is not exactly evolution but throws light at ways natural selection works. You could say however that those Africans have evolved to be immune to malaria, although that is not the right term here. 

Even explaining this in detail will take a lot of time and data. Now evolution takes place over millions of years. Imagine the time it would take to study every detail and change and find every intermediary species. It would take not one but many lifetimes and generations. Then trying to explain it to someone in complete detail is next to impossible. Explaining it to someone who does not believe in in evolution at all, is not only futile but a huge waste of time for either parties.

Also why would mosquito "Evolve" into drinking spring water or coca cola? I hope you are aware that there are many species of mosquitoes and that we have problems with only a few of those species which bear infectious agents. Even among them it is only the females since they need blood for the eggs. The males are happy to feed on plant juices. I wish you would do more research before making such statements.


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## mediator (Sep 21, 2013)

@Sarath - You are simply picking a line and blowing it out of context.

The example of mosquito sucking blood was in context to someone who had already made a comment regarding such statement. Can you please take the pains to read the entire thread? 

My statement regarding mosquito is regarding evolution of eating habits of species where mosquito example was kind of sattirical. It is infact related to the point 2 of my post #454. But it seems you found only this line worthwhile to talk on.



			
				sarath said:
			
		

> *I found this line quite interesting. Especially with reference to mosquito resistance.* Well, to start with evolution is a very slow process and it is difficult to tell exactly when the change has taken place but you, yourself have reminded me of an excellent example.




And again reminiscing as to what evolution means!



			
				sarath said:
			
		

> Even explaining this in detail will take a lot of time and data. Now evolution takes place over millions of years. Imagine the time it would take to study every detail and change and find every intermediary species. It would take not one but many lifetimes and generations. Then trying to explain it to someone in complete detail is next to impossible. *Explaining it to someone who does not believe in in evolution at all, is not only futile but a huge waste of time for either parties.*


Again, I guess, for the umpteenth time, I'll have to discuss the definition of science student.

A science student does not really "believe", but simply gathers facts, reads as to what is known, questions his own thoughts, what is known and what he understands, and if he finds flaws he presents it to the society or discusses it with other science students. 

And hence, again a perfect instance where a religion is made out of a science theory i.e evolution, in context here, which must be discussed only by the believers!

Much as to what you have stated, has been discussed in similar context before, and disconnected to the questions I have asked, again to be glorying evolution and explaining its basics as if I'm unaware about it.

I'm questioning evolution, only because I have read evolution and analyzed from different angles. Had I "believed" in it, you wouldn't have found me here only otherwise.

If you can add to what @Anorion has stated, then it would be of some value otherwise like the god of the forum, you'd be wasting your time as well as mine! 

Its sad to say that only @Anorion has tried to give genuine replies so far, whereas all the others have been acting like theists, glorifying, defining and chanting evolution instead of discussing it from their own primary frameworks and understanding or connecting to the questions being put forwards.


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## Raaabo (Sep 22, 2013)

I gave you instances of missing links when you asked for them. There is evidence all around us in everything we see. Is evolution an established fact, no, it's just the most plausible theory based on the evidence at hand. Is Darwin's original idea the way it was written right? Of course not, but again evidence proves thus far that he was more right than wrong. It's really so simple to see, and yet you seem to not care to see the evidence at all, and point to the 3 or 4 flaws in the theory. 

If you saw a man raping, murdering, abusing, spitting, slapping everyone, stabbing people at random and then giving a beggar 10 bucks, would you make a huge deal about how good he really is? We don't understand evolution fully, but until some better theory comes along based on evidence and logic instead of pure belief, then science will shift to that theory instead, as the "accepted theory" and not as fact because in science it's a fact after being proven, demonstrated and with physical evidence. It's how science works. Why do you insist on expecting it to be perfect and explain everything? It doesn't claim to but aims to, how hard is that to understand? 

Please put forward your theory of where people came from, what happened to the dinosaurs and we'll debate that instead. Everyone wants you to outline the theories you believe in, it's better than you just rubbishing every theory that thousands of researchers and great minds have come up with. You don't believe evolution is possible. Great. So I and others asked you to explain things in your way. Or the way that you have read and now believe. What is it?

Also I wasn't trolling, I just made it clear that I haven't read enough of the vedas, nor is my sanskrit any good, and I certainly don't read old books out of anything except curiosity and never believe anything unless it can be proven. There's no need to be snide all the time and call me names or make tongue in cheek remarks. All I've ever asked for you to do is to use the same logic you use to debunk known flaws in science, and view everything that way. 

So waiting to hear explanations of the world in your words and from your understanding of what you've read.

And thank you for the wishes


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## ico (Sep 22, 2013)

Reading a few posts on this page, this quote comes to my consciousness:



mediator said:


> The moment a person starts personalising and discusses the people in the discussion rather the subject or the essence of the debate, it leads to the demise of a fruitful discussion.


hmm. lol. No need of getting personal.


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## Anorion (Sep 22, 2013)

@Sarath had a good point, it actually proves a bit of what @mediator suspects. There is more resistance to mosquitoes among all animals including humans wherever mosquitoes are more prevalent. 

1. 2. and 3. 
Fossil record, connect the dots in any way you please, it will make sense in only one way despite prior expectations. It's pretty difficult to form a full picture, but we keep getting a better idea with discoveries and new scientific methods.
This is from The Lost World by Michael Crichton 



> "Plant life in the Mesozoic must have been severely challenged by the arrival of very large dinosaurs. Herds of giant herbivores, each animal consuming hundreds of pounds of plant matter each day, would have wiped out any plants that don't evolve some defense - a bad taste, or nettles, or thorns, or chemical toxicity. So perhaps cyatheoides evolved its toxicity back then. And it's very effective, because contemporary animals don't eat these ferns anywhere on earth. That's why they're so abundant. You may have noticed"
> "Plants have defenses?" Kelly said.
> "Of course they do. Plants evolve like every other form of life, and they've come up with their own forms of aggression, defense, and so on. In the nineteenth century, most theories concerned animals - nature red in tooth and claw, all that. But now scientists are thinking about nature green in root and stem. We realize that plants, in their ceaseless struggle to survive, have evolved everything from complex symbiosis with other animals, to signaling mechanisms to warn other plants, to out-right chemical warfare."
> Kelly frowned. "Signaling? Like what?"
> ...





mediator said:


> So in the pursuit/evolution of the eye, what was formed first: The eye, the nerves behind, iris, pupil, the sensors?
> Can we for 100% certainty say that this is "observable, measurable, verifible, proven"?


Read in some medical book long ago, dont remember details, but basically the nerves, behind and the sensors extend from the brain, at the same time the outer skin turns into iris and pupil, with muscles developing in tandem. so it all develops together, not one by one. 

point 4. I just quoted the geeta verses to show how these can easily be twisted. Have Aurobindo's essays on Gita, and Prabhupada's bigoted interpretation as well. Bindu is right there in the middle of every mandala, and religious people's foreheads, it is a symbol for creation. Dont claim to be an expert, but read a little bit, and have no problems accepting all the scriptures in context of the time and place they were written, as Rhitwick said. Bhuddhist texts are full blast, want to read Sikh as heard it is most sane, modern and secular. Additionally, none of this in any way conflicts with science at all - they are entirely different domains, and it is perfectly possible to be both religious and scientific. If all this stuff is easy to believe, science is even easier - science provides real wonders, not just visions of imaginary ones. Nothing wrong with imagination or hypothetical examples here, they are of equal value. Further, in science, proof is enough, there is no need for belief or knowledge. 

now about meditation and learning from personal experience. I can meditate, and hear voices in my head - which I totally believe - and they tell me to go around clobbering baby animals. For me it is the real and absolute truth, but I am sure I will have a hard time convincing anyone else, and people would be totally right to call me crazy. 

5. yep. it's self-contained. it has to be. einstein's equations would have been false in an infinite universe. the exact structure may be under contention, but torus shaped is the simplest shape where this is possible. The backbone of theory is background radiation. The dimensions have a range but too many zeroes to fit into human experience.


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## mediator (Sep 22, 2013)

Michael_Crichton said:
			
		

> "Plant life in the Mesozoic *must have been severely challenged* by the arrival of very large dinosaurs. Herds of giant herbivores, each animal consuming hundreds of pounds of plant matter each day, would have wiped out any plants that don't evolve some defense - a bad taste, or nettles, or thorns, or chemical toxicity. *So perhaps cyatheoides evolved its toxicity back then.* And it's very effective, because contemporary animals don't eat these ferns anywhere on earth. *That's why they're so abundant. You may have noticed*"
> "Plants have defenses?" Kelly said.
> "Of course they do. Plants evolve like every other form of life, and they've come up with their own forms of aggression, defense, and so on. In the nineteenth century, most theories concerned animals - nature red in tooth and claw, all that. But now scientists are thinking about nature green in root and stem. We realize that plants, in their ceaseless struggle to survive, have evolved everything from complex symbiosis with other animals, to signaling mechanisms to warn other plants, to out-right chemical warfare."
> Kelly frowned. "Signaling? Like what?"
> ...



And we call that "measurable, verifiable and proven"?

@Anorion - You have no idea as to how this all is sounding like Nirmal Baba's pravachans! Its perhaps an attachment to evolution that you might not be finding an overdose of assumptions, generalization, conclusions based on observations of temporary scenario and a mix of all these. Just like I questioned earlier, the "mysterious" dark energy was "coined" to "explain" the faster expanding universe which was earlier "assumed" to contract under its own gravity. Here we see assumptions and conclusions based on observations (i.e expansion) and assumptions (i.e contraction under its own gravity). What is the guarantee that the "acceleration" of expansion will continue as it is? What if tomorrow it does not expand as fast as it is observed today? And hence my further question, is prakriti or universe that predictable that you can make assumptions, generalizations and conclusions in the state of momentary analysis (1 day, 1 year, 10 years, 1000 years, 1000000 years etc and so on)?


1,2,3 : You still have not connected to the central question. Fossil records are just evidences of fossils and the missing links are in no way a "connecting point", but simply to an assumption regarding the "big picture we want to see".

You have hardly connected to the rest of the questions this time and 1,2,3 are merely a repeat. I can only request you to re-read both of those replies on 7 points/questions again. 

Anyways, a better example than mosquito for serious analysis is the E.Coli experiment that I'm constantly talking of and ignored by the evolutionists. 



Ending note - The evolutionists in this forum have humoured me long enough. Watch -> Atheism / Evolution Put Into Action! - Evolution debunked...Again. - 2012 - YouTube


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## Anorion (Sep 23, 2013)

mediator said:


> Just like I questioned earlier, the "mysterious" dark energy was "coined" to "explain" the faster expanding universe which was earlier "assumed" to contract under its own gravity. Here we see assumptions and conclusions based on observations (i.e expansion) and assumptions (i.e contraction under its own gravity). What is the guarantee that the "acceleration" of expansion will continue as it is? What if tomorrow it does not expand as fast as it is observed today? And hence my further question, is prakriti or universe that predictable that you can make assumptions, generalizations and conclusions in the state of momentary analysis (1 day, 1 year, 10 years, 1000 years, 1000000 years etc and so on)?


Dark matter is just one answer to a question. That question is we can measure more mass than we can see. Dark matter simply means mass we cannot see, it does not have to be some exotic material. 
Considerable doubt on ultimate fate of universe. Science dont know yet if it will expand till it rips apart, contract back to a primordial state (time may go in reverse during contraction), or find some kind of stasis. The conditions necessary for all three outcomes are known though.

Last point is great. Voyager will keep going on after the largest number of years you mentioned.


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## Raaabo (Sep 23, 2013)

The point is pretty simple. Science says "We don't know all this for sure, but we're making educated guesses based on what we see and observe."

All I want to know is, has anyone in a higher state of consciousness said "aha, I know it all now!"

Everyone here is aware of a lot of gaps in these scientific theories being discussed. New findings are good, they do not necessarily void theories, they may require the theory itself to evolve to encompass the new information. As I said before, even no data is data in science, and not finding something in an experiment is the equivalent of finding something new.

Thus learning is never ending, and understanding the universe continues. This is what my so far limited reading of Auribindo has also yielded. Thus, what's the debate really about? 

Mediator: are you saying you have the answers, or not? If you don't either, then why are you debating, because everyone else also says we don't have all the answers, just plausible theories based on findings. If you do, why not share this with us, and let's see if it's all as enlightened as you seem to be espousing.

As for the Ecoli example you keep bringing up, what is your understanding of the experiment, and how exactly do you think it disproves evolution? Specifics please, because in a debate about science, one really should be scientific. And just in case you're referring to Behe, I should point out his irreducible complexity theory has already been debunked. If you're referring to Lenski, he actually proves evolution in his experiment. So what's the big deal with Ecoli that you keep mentioning.

As for that video, put anyone rational in a situation where he fears death and he will beg for mercy once he realises there's no way out. Are you suggesting that terrorists who don't fear death and are the only ones who truly believe in what they are doing - to the point of not caring if they live or die - are the sane ones? Because in a world full of atheists, everyone would cherish this life they have and not throw it away. Ever met an atheist suicide bomber? Ever met an atheist rioter? Sure there may be atheist murderers and criminals of all orders, but religions have caused many more deaths than atheism ever has. Also just to be clear, atheists are not be definition materialistic. Most rich atheists I know are generous to a fault, and caring about humans and animals. They may love their super cars, but then so do rich religious people. Look at the offerings given to religious institutions - why not give employees raises and bonuses for hard work when running a business... No, that would be stupid, so much better to give to a church, mosque or temple as a bribe to god to hope for even more personal success. This makes sense to you?


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## mediator (Sep 23, 2013)

@Anorion - You are missing the point again. It is not about what Dark   Matter/energy is, but "why" it was coined. Tomorrow, if an observation   is made that universe has slowed its expansion, then will the promoters   of 'dark energy' brush it off from the concerned equation? Next, if   again an observation is made that universe is found to expanding faster   than thought, will it again make reservations for 'dark energy' in the   equation to the mystery of universe? Will the variable of 'dark energy'   be like a switch where you can turn it on and off as you like?

It is just an analogy to the unscientific working of many modern   scientists and yes many others have already debunked the dark energy   which is defined as "mysterious" to explain faster expanding universe   which was earlier "assumed" to slow down or contract under its own   gravity.

@Raaabo - You don't take the questions which are supposed to be taken   seriously and start chanting science and how it works instead, and then   start expounding seriously on the links which are supposed to be taken   lightly!

I really dunno why you keep bringing the word religion to contrast with   atheism/evolution for me. I'm anti-religion, anti-creationism,   anti-theism,anti-atheism, anti-evolution (except mutation and   adaptation). I hope it clears your pending and sustained dilemma and  confusion as to what I'm  discussing. Like I said, rise beyond the  taggings like "atheism",  "religion" etc and understand the essence of  what I'm saying.

You  cannot say that there is darkness only, for there is light. One  cannot  say there is good only, for there is bad also. Hence one cannot  say, he  is a materialist, for spiritual is the other side of the coin.  Those who say they are only spiritualist are 'dhongis' for materialism  or fulfilling basic needs is other side of the reality. Same for   manifest and unmanifest and all the levels of consciousness. The   ultimate reality encompasses all these paradoxes. I told you from the   start "modern material science" works at the realm of material existence   only or physical consciousness which is at the lowest level of   awareness. The brahman (ultimate reality) consists of the higher as well   as lower. It is not a moral scale or which should be pursued as an  option or a form  of condescending which you had been debating uselessly  from the start  but natural rhythm and the flow where all are essential  in its working  and "knowing". One cannot reach higher until lower has  been known and  hence I'm not against modern science which you have been  trying to  analyze from the start. Hence ultimate reality is to be  known in its completeness and hence the example of elephant, guitar and  gym which I gave you initially. Just like the science of external, there  is a  science of internal where both have been seen as "one science", a  part  of one science i.e science of consciousness where external comes  at the  lowest level, where perception of the external is purified as  higher  levels are achieved or consciousness reaches higher. Once again  "lower" consciousness does not mean bad, but it is a portal to the  higher. And hence, for the umpteenth time, your questions and analysis  over me would fall uselessly over you as a reply, until you have  understood the science of consciousness or its basics to start with. But  you don't have an interest only in this subject as you proudly speak of  and hence a proof that you have been trolling from the start.

For the sake of discussion :  I have seen those who tag themselves as   atheists to be rude, crude, shrewd, brute, cruel, immoral, arrogant in real life and start   worshipping during exams or when fear/terror strikes them where luck   & hope are the words which can be seen constantly in their practical   dictionary. Theists although have stand perhaps superstition and   blind-belief and terrorism as in doctrine of Islam, but atheism stands   for hypocrisy for me where majority can be found to be blindly   worshipping science/scientists, as evident from the majority of subjects   in this forum alone, explaining how science works most of the time,   chanting science and infatuating with it instead of discussing it.

Anyways, the only interesting part in your reply is the popup of the   word Aurobindo. Can you please tell which work of Aurobindo are you   reading?


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## Anorion (Sep 23, 2013)

Noope. You can sit down and figure out all science on your own, and you will do a better job and much quicker than formulating all possible gameplans for living human life


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## Faun (Sep 23, 2013)

Anorion said:


> Noope. You can sit down and figure out all science on your own, and you will do a better job and much quicker than formulating all possible gameplans for living human life



lol...


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## Hrishi (Sep 23, 2013)

Has it started once again ?



Anorion said:


> Noope. You can sit down and figure out all science on your own, and you will do a better job and much quicker than formulating all possible gameplans for living human life


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## Raaabo (Sep 24, 2013)

The secret of the vedas.

Now. 

Ecoli. 

Please explain how you find that disproving evolution.

Also, evolution is crap, agreed. 

Please enlighten us about where all the current animals were millions of years ago, and why we only find fossils of weird looking things that don't exist today. Also, where are all the people? Why are only weird semi-human fossils found?

Also, I don't avoid questions, read the thread again, I've replied to everything, and you haven't given an explanation for anything except talking about higher consciousness in the abstract and rubbishing everything. 

I have a huge interest in human psychology and this is what draws me here, not trolling. Look up trolling. Giving explanations isn't trolling. 

Also, has anyone noticed how even drug users claim to be getting "high"?

Religion, any beliefs and getting high are all interests for psychologists, and although I am not one, I try to find a logical explanation for it all.

Now waiting to hear the explanations you have come up with for the questions I am repeatedly asking and being ignored. 

To recap: why Ecoli, and what's your explanation for what actually happened and why evolution is wrong?


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## Hrishi (Sep 24, 2013)

While I am nowhere in position to judge BaBaji's(_/\_) knowledge of Vedas and his study of "being high" , but I do have to agree that his literature is good. 
He writes quite well.


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## Anorion (Sep 24, 2013)

Yep. He should write novel on consequences of a hindutva govt. think it will be bestseller.


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## Raaabo (Sep 24, 2013)

In Sanskrit?


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## mediator (Sep 24, 2013)

"Evolution is crap" that too coming from the champion of evolution. Surely we are in a sarcastic mood aren't we?

I had given you a few links to read like -> Agamas and Science and Art of Temple Construction

If you really think Mahabharat is just 1000 or 5000 yrs old like they portray in NCERT, then naturally your questions are going to be absurd like "Please enlighten us about where all the current animals were millions of years ago,".

What is the average height of men in today's world? Do we really think that men in the past had the same average height? Dinos did exist, perhaps there were inter-planetary communications as well. What makes us think that the fossils that are being found relate to

1. Species from earth only ?
2. "A missing link" in the chain ?

Why are we ignoring the Indian history before asking questions and our so called "research"?

So the modern DNA studies debunk the evolution and there are instances in Puranas of men co-existing with "big creatures". What is the probability that men did not exist when all the land mass was together? 



			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> Also, I don't avoid questions, read the thread again, I've replied to everything, and you haven't given an explanation for anything except talking about higher consciousness in the abstract and rubbishing everything.
> 
> I have a huge interest in human psychology and this is what draws me here, not trolling. Look up trolling. Giving explanations isn't trolling.


If you call defining evolution, testifying as to how science works, praising evolution and giving wiki link to talk about "missing link" as replying or giving explanations, then sure you did a wonderful job. Hats off!

My questions are still open and have been listed together this time specifically for the worshippers of evolution and those who blindly believe and chant science instead of understanding and questioning it from their own primary frame of reference. Refer #454, #458



			
				Raaabo said:
			
		

> Also, has anyone noticed how even drug users claim to be getting "high"?


Exactly my point. The difference between higher consciousness and drug effects has been explained to you more than once. But how can one whose understanding dwells only on the external world relate or know anything outside his scope of interest? But still....

1. Higher consciousness involves -> perfect mind control, drug effects -> loss of mind control
2. Higher consciousness aims or converges to a thoughtless state, whereas drug effects -> thoughts, experiences based on poisoning of mind like hallucinations of ghosts and demons and further getting affected by those!
3. Higher consciousness -> based on detachment, drug effects -> due to attachment
4. Higher consciousness has stages -> 1.Yam, 2.Niyam, 3.Asan, 4.Pranayam, 5. Pratyahar, 6.Dhyan,7.Dharana,8. Samadhi ; Drug Effects -> Loss of mind control leading to crimes, rapes etc
7. Higher consciousness -> formation of more brain cells, strengthen brains and strengthens a person emotionally ; drug effect -> destruction of brain cells, reduces a person to a loser!


But I'm optimistic you'll keep repeating this "high experience" during drug effects again in the future.

Anyways, I have talked about E.Coli experiment for the evolution believers and thiests to update themselves on the advancement of the experiment and observe upon it and not to draw any conclusion whether evolution is right or wrong and just to present the understanding of what adaptation and mutation means for many blind-believers who don't even understand the basic meaning. It is similar to the way I have inserted a link on evolutionfaqs for the blind-believers where they don't even understand the "non-random process of Natural Selection".

Anyways, for a person like you who is not apt with Indian sciences, thinks dowry, killing, animal worship etc is related to Indian science, conditioned from birth into believing that the Indian science is some religion and acknolwedges proudly that he doesn't have any interest in the subject alone, you might find it hard to understand "Secret of Vedas" by Aurobindo. But still do tell when you finish it. Now, I'm more interested to see how a live case, without a background and mindset further based on lack of interest, interprets Secret of Vedas.


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## Anorion (Sep 26, 2013)

Pandavas went to forest on 4th sept 5575 bc, any fringe links that say otherwise?


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## Gollum (Sep 26, 2013)

I opened this thread only to find that I have no clue what this thread is about.
This is like a random discussion thread.


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## Hrishi (Sep 26, 2013)

Gollum said:


> I opened this thread only to find that I have no clue what this thread is about.
> This is like a random discussion thread.



The Thread is about "Being High!!".


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## Gollum (Sep 26, 2013)

Rishi. said:


> The Thread is about "Being High!!".



lol, I'm at the 5th floor right now. how about you?


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## Hrishi (Sep 26, 2013)

Gollum said:


> lol, I'm at the 5th floor right now. how about you?


Yeah I was quite high too , somewhere around the 7th , but then When I fell and woke up , I realised the F***ng world still runs on rules of nature explained by Science.
No matter whether it cab bent or broken or even everything is just a state of mind , it still runs on the very pricnciples explained by science.
**** that , infact even the very thing I am using to post this with you is a product made from understanding of science.
If I knew the very answer , I would simply go out of it and not live inside it.


----------



## rhitwick (Sep 26, 2013)

Gollum said:


> I opened this thread only to find that I have no clue what this thread is about.
> This is like a random discussion thread.



Did the thread title misguide you?
*"Debates about the Economy, Politics, Religion, and everything under the sun"*

//My Keyboard is not typing *'e' and 'f'*. I've copy-pasting it from other texts. What could be the problem?


----------



## Gollum (Sep 26, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> Did the thread title misguide you?
> *"Debates about the Economy, Politics, Religion, and everything under the sun"*
> 
> //My Keyboard is not typing *'e' and 'f'*. I've copy-pasting it from other texts. What could be the problem?



your keyboard  is fauly, throw it out the window, if you have one.



Rishi. said:


> Yeah I was quite high too , somewhere around the 7th , but then When I fell and woke up , I realised the F***ng world still runs on rules of nature explained by Science.
> No matter whether it cab bent or broken or even everything is just a state of mind , it still runs on the very pricnciples explained by science.
> **** that , infact even the very thing I am using to post this with you is a product made from understanding of science.
> If I knew the very answer , I would simply go out of it and not live inside it.



Bro you definitely seem to he high, way higher than the rest of us.


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## theserpent (Sep 26, 2013)

I really Don't get it why does India still follow the "CASTE" System i.e ST/SC etc.
For Instance,For applying for Scholarship In my degree college,the cut off for SC/ST,GM, etc etc is different..For them it's like >430 or 450 on 600 , for general around the same while for some it's 500 or 550,This crap of different cut off's has to be abolished and they should follow a common cut off.


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## Anorion (Sep 26, 2013)

Dont think voting will make a difference


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## CommanderShawnzer (Sep 26, 2013)

Modi will become PM only because people are fed up of congress
Having Pappu for PM isn't going to change that

Mahabharat is a good action videogame script.


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## theserpent (Sep 26, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> Modi will become PM only because people are fed up of congress
> Having Pappu for PM isn't going to change that
> 
> Mahabharat is a good action videogame script.



Exactly.But to say the truth I really don't think Modi is any good


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## Flash (Sep 26, 2013)

If there are 2 bad things, people will opt for the least bad.
That's what going to happen in the upcoming election.


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## frostbite (Sep 26, 2013)

I feel that Modi atleast has a stronger personality as a leader


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## mediator (Sep 27, 2013)

Meanwhile, the Amul Baby gatecrashes an ongoing COngress speech and thrashes the ordinance to be a nonsense and that it should torn and thrown off. Now where was this chap while the discussions regarding ordinance were taken internally and approvals being gathered for the same? Guess what would have been the punishment for any other Congressy opposing the Congress/baboon party like that and for opposing a bill which has been approved by the baboon party?

I guess Amul Baby is the "missing link" between the Neanderthals and the Apes. I believe in evolution now! Mea Culpa and hats off to the 7 people who voted for Amul Baby!

Rahul Gandhi: Ordinance on convicted politicians is complete nonsense - YouTube


----------



## ico (Sep 28, 2013)

mediator said:


> Meanwhile, the Amul Baby gatecrashes an ongoing COngress speech and thrashes the ordinance to be a nonsense and that it should torn and thrown off. Now where was this chap while the discussions regarding ordinance were taken internally and approvals being gathered for the same? Guess what would have been the punishment for any other Congressy opposing the Congress/baboon party like that and for opposing a bill which has been approved by the baboon party?
> 
> I guess Amul Baby is the "missing link" between the Neanderthals and the Apes. I believe in evolution now! Mea Culpa and hats off to the 7 people who voted for Amul Baby!
> 
> Rahul Gandhi: Ordinance on convicted politicians is complete nonsense - YouTube


You sound like the people who post on Times of India's website.


----------



## mediator (Sep 28, 2013)

^ You are korrect this time!


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## theserpent (Sep 29, 2013)

Now this is good
Supreme Court gives voters right to reject all candidates


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## amjath (Sep 29, 2013)

theserpent said:


> Now this is good
> Supreme Court gives voters right to reject all candidates



This is not new. Last time when I asked for rejecting the vote, I was to fill a form


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## Flash (Sep 29, 2013)

So, whatif all votes are rejected?


----------



## CyberKID (Sep 29, 2013)

Gearbox said:


> So, whatif all votes are rejected?


No one said anything about that. Neither the Supreme Court comment on that.
Moreover, the government is saying this Supreme court ruling is bakwaas, and unrealistic. And I think all the political parties would agree with this stand even if they oppose the ruling party's stand. In our country, the main aim of the opposition party is to oppose, irrespective of whether the ruling party is doing right or wrong.


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## Hrishi (Sep 29, 2013)

I have seen it quite often that those who do not have kins or family , tend to work better than others. Like MayaWati , NaMo , etc. 

BTW , I very much dislike the concept of getting into politics and becoming a minister/leader flourished from hereditary cycle. A very good example is Gandhi family.


----------



## Flash (Sep 29, 2013)

^ Actually it's happening with every political family. If you own a political party, apparently your offsprings/relatives will be positioned in the hierarchial chain than the ones, who were with you from the start.

In North:
Nehru-Gandhi family
Yadav family (Laloo-rabri)
Yadav family (Mulayam-Akilesh)
Scindia family
Abdhulla family
Thackrey family
Pawar family



In South:
Karunanidhi family
Ramadoss family
Moopanor family


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## Hrishi (Sep 29, 2013)

Gearbox said:


> ^ Actually it's happening with every political family. If you own a political party, apparently your offsprings/relatives will be positioned in the hierarchial chain than the ones, who were with you from the start.
> 
> In North:
> Nehru-Gandhi family
> ...



And this really needs to fade away. Its extremely bad for democracy.


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (Sep 29, 2013)

Rishi. said:


> I have seen it quite often that those who do not have kins or family , tend to work better than others. Like MayaWati , NaMo , etc.
> 
> BTW , I very much dislike the concept of getting into politics and becoming a minister/leader flourished from hereditary cycle. A very good example is Gandhi family.



Nepotism.


----------



## Anorion (Oct 2, 2013)

mediator said:


> A must watch!
> 
> *www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQdrebTcuhM



suspected some of it was nonsense, but confirmed it only recently 

participatory notes, black money being siphoned out are not the major reason for rupee depreciation 
Subramaniam Swamy said he would outline a plan to get it back, he didnt 
releasing 20 billion dollars into the market (to make Rs. 25 to a $) wont help, dont think we have that much to spare, and even if we do, it will get absorbed within six months and things will come back to the status quo
the money is gonna go straight to imports from china anyway, which is part of the problem

we dont have any manufacturing or production going on, on both micro and macro scale. in fact, such units are shutting down because of aggressive competition from china and other imports. till that happens, the rupee will continue to depreciate 

farming round the clock and round the year may spoil our agricultural land. has happened before, post green revolution, using high yield seeds and fertilizers aggressively rendered the land useless for cultivating anything... leaving it barren.


----------



## theserpent (Oct 2, 2013)

Yeah  The Second place in India to get 10rs Meals

If this guy is actually able to do this?Why not every hotel


----------



## CyberKID (Oct 3, 2013)

It's shutter down for Laluji.


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## shreymittal (Oct 3, 2013)

CyberKID said:


> It's shutter down for Laluji.



Sentenced to five years in jail, fined Rs 25 lakhs


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## CyberKID (Oct 3, 2013)

shreymittal said:


> Sentenced to five years in jail, fined Rs 25 lakhs


Still I'm shocked at the quantum of Rs. 25 lacs fine. There are many other not-so-known-convicts who've been sentenced to a similar time in jail and a fine to the tune of a whopping Rs. 1.5 crores.


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## Anorion (Oct 3, 2013)

Anyone got tl;dr fwd on prime minister about rudderless ships and reputation devaluation proportional to rupee? Starts with religion, goes onto economics and even lil bit of evolution (pm is compared to appendix). Buut it says we have $200 billion reserves, we owe 150 in 2013, so Subramaniam Swamy has 50 to play with... Not enough
Fb, twitter, internet in general seems to be playing major role this time around. Happy just because nation is talking about elections this far ahead... Including obvious prods from PR machinaries

Modiji going toilet first then temple was epic tho.


----------



## pRieSt (Oct 4, 2013)

For any party a good ally is what it's worth, currently Congress has advantage in allies whereas BJP is loosing in that.

*National Democratic Alliance - BJP and it's allied parties.*

Present members:
Currently, the parties in and supporting the NDA are:[2]
Bharatiya Janata Party - (117 MPs)
Shiv Sena - Maharashtra (11 MPs)
Shiromani Akali Dal - Punjab (4 MPs)
Nagaland People's Front - Nagaland (1 MP)* though is not part of NDA but has state level coordination with BJP in Nagaland.
Haryana Janhit Congress - Haryana (1 MP)
Republican Party of India (Athvale)- Maharashtra
Maharashtrawadi Gomantak Party - Goa (Alliance in Goa State with BJP)
Asom Gana Parishad - Assam - (1 MP) though Contested alone in Assam assembly election, 2011 continues to be part of NDA
National People's Front - Meghalaya
Gorkha Janmukti Morcha - West Bengal

*United Progressive Alliance - Congress and it's allied parties.*

Present members: 

Indian National Congress (209 MPs)
Nationalist Congress Party (9 MPs)
Rashtriya Lok Dal[8][9][10] (5 MPs)
Jammu & Kashmir National Conference (3 MPs)
Indian Union Muslim League (3 MPs)
Kerala Congress (Mani) (1 MP)
Sikkim Democratic Front (1 MP)
All India United Democratic Front (1 MP)
Outside support is provided by:
Samajwadi Party: (22 MPs)
Bahujan Samaj Party: (21 MPs)
Rashtriya Janata Dal: (4 MPs)
The total is 276 MPs which is above the requisite 275 MPs to stay in power.[11]
UPA Congress Sarkar
Former Members[edit]
Telangana Rashtra Samithi
Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (Withdrew support on 19 March 2013)
Marumalarchi Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (joined the Third Front)
Pattali Makkal Katchi (joined the Third Front)
People's Democratic Party
Samajwadi Party[12] (joined Fourth Front)
Rashtriya Janata Dal[12] (joined the Fourth Front)
Lok Janshakti Party[12] (joined the Fourth Front)
Republican Party of India (Athvale) (joined the NDA)
Jharkhand Mukti Morcha (joined NDA and again moved to Congress.)
All India Trinamool Congress
Jharkhand Vikas Morcha
All India Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen
UPA Congress Sarkar
Current members for Lok-Sabha 2009[13][14][edit]

Indian National Congress - 206 Seats
Nationalist Congress Party - 9 Seats
Rashtriya Lok Dal - 5 Seats[10]
Jammu & Kashmir National Conference - 3 Seats
Indian Union Muslim League - 2 Seats
Kerala Congress (Mani) - 1 Seat
Supporting parties for Lok-Sabha 2009[edit]
Samajwadi Party - 22 Seat
Bahujan Samaj Party - 21 Seats
Rashtriya Janata Dal - 4 Seats
Janata Dal (Secular) - 3 Seats
Nagaland People's Front - 1 Seats
Bodoland People's Front - 1 Seats
Swabhimani Paksha - 1 Seats
Bahujan Vikas Aaghadi - 1 Seats
All India United Democratic Front - 1 Seats
Sikkim Democratic Front - 1 Seats[/quote]

If you take this picture in context you will see who is in advantage, however this new Ordinance and Telangana separation is something which BJP should bank on.


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## rhitwick (Oct 4, 2013)

^Seems to be lifted from WIKI, still post the source.


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## pRieSt (Oct 4, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> ^Seems to be lifted from WIKI, still post the source.



yep just trying to give the members a clear picture, if one thinks Modi will win without any hassle.


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## CommanderShawnzer (Oct 4, 2013)

Religion should be banned.


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## pRieSt (Oct 5, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> Religion should be banned.



I agree but in which context?


----------



## Faun (Oct 5, 2013)

pRieSt said:


> I agree but in which context?



Because we have a never ending thread on it which will most likely be the bane of this forum.


----------



## pRieSt (Oct 5, 2013)

Faun said:


> Because we have a never ending thread on it which will most likely be the bane of this forum.



I understand I thought it was an hypothetical statement in general.


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## rhitwick (Oct 5, 2013)

*No model state : Gujarat!*


> Among the rural groups that suffered from the state’s policy, Adivasis are a case in point. According to a World Bank report, between 1993-94 and 2004-05, the share of those who lived below the poverty line increased from 30.9 per cent to 33.1 per cent — 10 percentage points below the national average. The Modi government has been criticised for not allocating to Adivasis and Dalits funds in proportion to their population. While the former represent almost 18 per cent of the state population, they were allocated 11.01 per cent of the total outlay in 2007-08, 14.06 per cent in 2008-09, 13.14 per cent in 2010-11 and 16.48 per cent in 2011-12. Moreover, actual expenditures were even lower. The same was true of the Dalits, who represent 7.1 per cent of the state population and who were allotted 1.41 per cent of the total outlay in 2007-08, 3.93 per cent in 2008-09, 4.51 per cent in 2009-10, 3.65 per cent in 2010-11 and 3.20 per cent in 2011-12.





> While these criticisms from the left are well known, those on the right, especially the liberals, could also have indicted the Modi government for its lack of financial discipline. The Gujarat growth pattern relies on indebtedness. The state’s debt increased from Rs 45,301 crore in 2002 to Rs. 1,38,978 crore in 2013, not far behind the usual suspects, Uttar Pradesh (Rs 1,58,400 crore) and West Bengal (Rs 1,92,100). In terms of per capita indebtedness, the situation is even more worrying, given the size of the state: each Gujarati carries a debt of Rs 23,163 if the population is taken to be 60 million. In 2013-14, the government plans to raise fresh loans to the tune of Rs 26,009 crore. Of this amount, Rs 19,877 crore, that is 76 per cent, will be used to pay the principal and the interests of the existing debts. Gujarat would fall into the debt trap the day this figure reaches 100 per cent.





> Second, the exchequer has been directly affected by the business-friendly attitude of the Modi government. To woo investors, it has indulged in tax deductions and low interest rates, and sold land at throwaway prices. Take the example of the Nano factory. If K. Nag’s biography of Modi is to be believed, the Gujarat government made unprecedented *concessions to Tata Motors, including the sale of 1,100 acres of land at Rs 900 per square metre, when its market rate was around Rs 10,000 per square metre, a Rs 20 crore exemption on stamp duty levied on the sale of land, a 20-year deferral in the payment of value added tax on the sale, and loans amounting to Rs 9,570 crore against an investment of Rs 2,900 crore (330 per cent of the investment) at 0.1 per cent interest rate over 20 years.* Most of the big companies investing in Gujarat — Adani, Essar, Reliance, Ford, Maruti, L&T and others — have been offered special conditions, especially under the SEZ framework.



Source : No model state - Indian Express Mobile


----------



## Raaabo (Oct 6, 2013)

*www.ted.com/talks/stuart_firestein_the_pursuit_of_ignorance.html

For those who didn't get what I was trying to say earlier about what science really is...


----------



## ico (Oct 6, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> *No model state : Gujarat!*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Debt is not a problem if you have the cash. Cash flow is important. Gujarat has it.

Uttar Pradesh and West Bengal don't.


----------



## mediator (Oct 6, 2013)

Meanwhile - 

Amul Baby : "My Mother told me my sentiments were right, but my words were not"




[img=*s11.postimg.org/nly8ueorz/Amul_Baby.jpg]
*s11.postimg.org/5j5636sxf/Amul_Baby.jpg
green shot


Congress  MP Chaudhary Birender Singh, who had earlier kicked up a row with his  'Rs 100 crore for a Rajya Sabha seat remark', today said that there are  many people who have made billions through politics and that politics is  the best business.

*s21.postimg.org/tqaeu9mlj/Congress_MP_Chaudhary_Birender_Singh.png
screenshot tool


Different Solutions from different parties :
*s18.postimg.org/b3xwzqgmh/different_solutions.png
windows screenshot tool



Anyways, good news folks. For non-minorities, your money shall be stashed in the pockets of minorities, and for minorities, this world is yours. Go to banks now, take huge loans and you need not repay. We all know what 'minority' means for Congress. A group whose population is 20% of the total and second largest in the world is a 'minority' for Congress. 

"NO NEED FOR MUSLIMS TO REPAY LOANS"

It's OK if minorities don't repay loans, Karnataka Congress chief G Parameshwara says - The Times of India


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## rhitwick (Oct 6, 2013)

Matlab, main kisi din jan-na chahunga....matlab 'Amul baby' hi kyoun? 
Why not 'Complan baby' or 'Nestle baby' or 'Parle G' baby?

Why 'Amul' specially? Iske piche raaz kaya hai?


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## mediator (Oct 6, 2013)

^ Man, thats tough! You win, I lose. I surrender!


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (Oct 7, 2013)

Raaabo said:


> [B]*www.ted.com/talks/stuart_firestein_the_pursuit_of_ignorance.html[/B]
> 
> For those who didn't get what I was trying to say earlier about what science really is...



@PeopleWhoMakeVideosForImportantstuff :Y U no make articles.?
I dont like it when "news" or some kind of err... "video article" is in video form


----------



## Ronnie11 (Oct 7, 2013)

mediator said:


> Different Solutions from different parties :
> *s18.postimg.org/b3xwzqgmh/different_solutions.png
> windows screenshot tool



I am sorry but this solution image is completely biased towards bjp..its mocked the cong/aap and has pointed out a one sided solution...
PS:- before i am accused of being anti bjp/pro cong...all i am saying is come up with a balanced debate than mocking the rest of the parties...

Also not too sure about this whole paid media thing...first of all, there was a cag report showing some malnutrition thing or something in gujarat(Honestly CAG has probs with everything)..But instead of debating about it, i found people taking the easy route of bias/cong agent/paid media etc...lets not forget the fact that CAG is an independant auditing group and has literally come up with damning reports on about every state in india..be it scam or food distribution or land projects etc..I would have understood if someone debated that malnutrition is evident everywhere including maharashtra etc but people somehow seem to be one sided on this...

Another thing to add is that the solutions to the problems as stated in the image may seem good but the problem with every project in india is the implementation.


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## fuser (Oct 7, 2013)

as per the poll question, obviously no single party is going to win the 2014 poll. And from analysis BJP won't get in power simply because they don't have many allies (last time they formed government they had more than 20, right now just 2).

My prediction is a hung up assembly and a rag tag government for couple of years and then another election in 15-16.

Also, its amusing to see either congress or bjp supporters (well on internet its mostly bjp) claiming their respective party to be a force of good/savior against the other outright evil party determined to destroy this country.

Whereas in fact, these both party (cong and bjp) are effectively same, propagating naked march of "neoliberalism" whilst differentiating in regards to minor issues which have no bearing on larger issues that do actually matter.


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## mediator (Oct 7, 2013)

@Ronnie - That pic is to be taken in a light hearted humour with Amul Baby either Absent on the occasions, ignoring the problem or detouring to the circumference rather than arriving at the center of the subject. Anyways, yes I'm a Modi supporter and I respect your views.


----------



## rhitwick (Oct 7, 2013)

mediator said:


> @Ronnie - That pic is to be taken in a light hearted humour with Amul Baby either Absent on the occasions, ignoring the problem or detouring to the circumference rather than arriving at the center of the subject. Anyways, yes I'm a Modi supporter and I respect your views.


Mere to ankhon mein ansoo a gaye bhaisaab!


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## snap (Oct 7, 2013)

@rhitwick

feeling very joyful today


----------



## Ronnie11 (Oct 7, 2013)

mediator said:


> @Ronnie - That pic is to be taken in a light hearted humour with Amul Baby either Absent on the occasions, ignoring the problem or detouring to the circumference rather than arriving at the center of the subject. Anyways, yes I'm a Modi supporter and I respect your views.


oh sorry...in that case my bad..its all good in humour then..


----------



## mediator (Oct 8, 2013)

rhitwick said:
			
		

> Mere to ankhon mein ansoo a gaye bhaisaab!


*s15.postimg.org/vqhj0rc5n/1385481_563938323659724_675903011_n.jpg
img



			
				snap said:
			
		

> @rhitwick
> 
> feeling very joyful today


You have no idea. He is the don of Kolkata!

*s23.postimg.org/vac0u13u3/1378493_661503330572705_1325249431_n.jpg
image upload



			
				ronnie said:
			
		

> oh sorry...in that case my bad..its all good in humour then..




*s14.postimg.org/jq6qo8pqp/1379816_557827217632997_242102784_n.jpg
how do i print screen


----------



## ico (Oct 8, 2013)

*Narendra Modi Plans for India* - 

Sanghis apparently sent death threats to these people. BJP has done well in establishing an Internet + propaganda brigade. Might win them the election.

*Rahul Gandhi's Achievements - A Comprehensive Guide* - 

The country is doomed. No matter whom you vote for. Just vote for BJP this time. Nahi toh saari gaaliyaan Congress hi le jaayegi. BJP ko bhi gaaliyaan khaane ka mauka do. AAP is another set of anti-nationals.


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## Ronnie11 (Oct 8, 2013)

Another point i wanted to add is suppose narendra modi is elected as the prime minister, the NDA will need allies. Now even if they do get the necessary allies, will modi be able to work with allied groups who will look after their own interest and constant interference.Modi in Gujarat has a free hand.. he has majority in itself and does not need allies.So he doesn't have to constantly answer to them.



fuser said:


> as per the poll question, obviously no single party is going to win the 2014 poll. And from analysis BJP won't get in power simply because they don't have many allies (last time they formed government they had more than 20, right now just 2).
> 
> My prediction is a hung up assembly and a rag tag government for couple of years and then another election in 15-16.



I hope to god this does not happen..It sure looks that way now though but this might result in more trouble for our economy. It brings about a lot of instability in the system. We faced that before with the likes of third front,not again...


----------



## Flash (Oct 8, 2013)

ico said:


> *Narendra Modi Plans for India* -
> 
> *Rahul Gandhi's Achievements - A Comprehensive Guide* -


From where, you get sites like this?


----------



## amjath (Oct 9, 2013)

ico said:


> *Narendra Modi Plans for India* -
> 
> *Rahul Gandhi's Achievements - A Comprehensive Guide* -



for the second link i checked my internet connection thought the page did not load


----------



## Anorion (Oct 9, 2013)

fuser said:


> Whereas in fact, these both party (cong and bjp) are effectively same, propagating naked march of "neoliberalism" whilst differentiating in regards to minor issues which have no bearing on larger issues that do actually matter.


what are alternatives? BJP has sci-fi agenda (fuel cells to replace petrol, thorium research as an alternative to uranium nuclear fuel in defiance of US nuclear treaty, connecting all rivers of india, space lasers against china) (only one is made up). Little hard to accept that it wont make difference at all, even if promised policies of both parties are aligned within the same broader framework.


----------



## rhitwick (Oct 9, 2013)

Alternative?! What alternative.

Congress going to win this time too. A simple math tells that.


----------



## Anorion (Oct 9, 2013)

Alternatives to naked march of neoliberalism


----------



## fuser (Oct 9, 2013)

Anorion said:
			
		

> what are alternatives? BJP has sci-fi agenda (fuel cells to replace petrol, thorium research as an alternative to uranium nuclear fuel in defiance of US nuclear treaty, connecting all rivers of india, space lasers against china) (only one is made up).



No government is "against" any scientific development. Promising such things as an opposition party is much more easier than actually delivering it considering the actual scientific and other hindrance. For example :

Thorium (largest reserve is in India) as an alternative to Uranium has always been the plan since "Homi Bhaba" formulated a plan for it, every government has funded this research since. As a result India is most advanced in this particular field than any other nation despite still not being able to produce a working reactor. And no, NDA government during her 6 year reign didn't substantially increased budget for this research either. see :India's three-stage nuclear power programme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and 

Connecting rivers is not as easy as you make it sound because :

there are many genuine ecological concern
its very costly
millions are going to get displaced, problem of their rehabilitation
conflict regarding sharing of water between different states
etc etc

So, no BJP is not going to connect rivers in India or build a thorium based nuclear reactor in India in next 5 years if she came in power. Ah, but Congress would start promising same when in opposition.

at the end of the day both party speak same language when in government and when in opposition.

Also having a sci-fi agenda is not being against neoliberalism or an alternative against neoliberalism.


----------



## Ronnie11 (Oct 9, 2013)

LOL


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (Oct 9, 2013)

How do we rid the world of religion and agnosticism?
Both are evil if you ask me


----------



## fuser (Oct 9, 2013)

Religion is not "evil". Evil is such a meaningless word anyways and I am saying this as an atheist.


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## mediator (Oct 11, 2013)

Meanwhile,

Amul Baby asks people to listen to him and clap for him  ->  

Rahul Gandhi asks people to clap for him as chattering crowd of a few hundreds drown his voice at Rampur rally - daily.bhaskar.com

Amul Baby learns to speak  ----->

"Politics is everywhere, it's in your shirt, it's in your pants"
"Gujarat is bigger than United Kingdom"
"India is bigger than Europe and United States put together"
"Poverty is a State of Mind, if you have confidence, you will overcome it" 
"Agar desh ko badlna hai, toh pahle Gujarat ko badlo…...maine galti se Gujarat bol diya Bihar ki bajaye" - Pappu in Bihar
"I have lost it" - Pappu's confession at CII and his take on Life in general
"Stop asking your politicians how they're gonna do it, and start asking yourself how you're gonna do it"
“Let me ask YOU the same question, how would YOU do it?”
"10 out of 7 youths in Punjab have a drug problem"
"Rani ki Jhansi, she is a hero" - Pappu at CII
"Doing Yoga in New York, dancing around....that's Indian power" - Pappu at CII
"How many of you are getting your mail dropped from airplanes in the  sky? It has been a long time since I got that" - Pappu at CII
"I happen to come from a chain of people" - Pappu at CII
"It is difficult to stop every terrorist attack, we can only stop 99% of them"
"China is referred to as the 'dragon' and India as an 'elephant'. But we are not an elephant, we are a 'beehive'" - Pappu at CII
"Hindustan ek soch hai. Hindustan ek jagah hai….magar Hindustan ek soch hai." - Pappu at a rally in Punjab


Further testimonials -> Pappu - Pappupedia

Oh well, after vouching for ordinance Ajay Maken seems to do a complete you turn -> 'Rahul Gandhi is the general and we are his soldiers' - The New Indian Express

I guess the brain of Sanjay Jha, Ajay Maken, Renuka Chaudhary, Manish Tiwari, Dogvijay, Sibbal etc should be mapped to understand the neurons responsible for sycophancy!





			
				ico said:
			
		

> BJP ko bhi gaaliyaan khaane ka mauka do. *AAP is another set of anti-nationals.*


Well Said!


----------



## Makx (Oct 11, 2013)

If AAP wins the Delhi elections and deliver according to the expectations than they might have some chance at National Elections.
But winning the Delhi elections wont be easy and congress and bjp will make a lot of trouble for AAP even if it wins Delhi Elections.


----------



## Faun (Oct 11, 2013)

"Politics in my pants" sounds kinky to me.


----------



## Anorion (Oct 13, 2013)

mediator said:


> Amul Baby learns to speak  ----->
> 
> "Politics is everywhere, it's in your shirt, it's in your pants"
> "Gujarat is bigger than United Kingdom"
> ...



ok. laugh at someone unable to express himself... most of the problem seems to be in translating english directly to hindi. 
1. politics is between partners, siblings, friends, neighbors, colleagues... why politicians are only not allowed to indulge in politics
2,3. In heart. Makes sense in hindi. Stuff like this adorns the backs of trucks. 
4. Poverty is a virtue
5-6. It works for your amul baby if he is not a seasoned politician. just look at who is pm. 
7-8. Not a bad question. On lines of idiom that charity begins at home. 
9. Not sure if number problem or accurate count. 
10. Gender equality. Get used to it. 
11. there are many kinds of power to take over the world, it does not have to be diplomatic or military only
12-13. lolwut clearly out of context, perfectly normal statements, like all the other stuff here. 
14. defense against dark arts? cut off one head, two grows in it's place
15. he wishes. if this is some obtuse reference to a queen bee... that's not the way to take it. He just meant working together in a hivemind. which is nothing too bad to wish. 
16. A nation is a state of mind


----------



## Faun (Oct 13, 2013)

Anorion said:


> 9. Not sure if number problem or accurate count.



200% sure that it's accurate count.


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## rhitwick (Nov 11, 2013)

Modi is making history in distorting India's history and geography.

And, even couple of days ago 'Amul baby' used to be his competitor, now Modi has surpassed him.


“We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak.”

― Albert Einstein


----------



## mediator (Nov 13, 2013)

Lovely!   Ill-read critics of Modi using lies to belittle him | Niti Central



Meanwhile, this guy takes on Russel Peters!

Crowd asks issues and Amul Baby replies "Dadi se seekha hun"! You ask a question to the Butter Prince and the reply has been standardized to "Mummy, Papa, Dadi, Nani, Nana, Jija etc" by Con Media Managers breast feeding Amul Baby on his little speeches! 

*www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=b1czCpDvimg

Amul Baby getting everything or nothing!


----------



## ico (Nov 13, 2013)

^ I think if Modi combines with the timeless and the formless, he will take over the universe. Raul can never do this.


----------



## rhitwick (Nov 13, 2013)

"Amul baby" to "Butter prince"....ah, progress already!


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (Nov 13, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> "Amul baby" to "Butter prince"....ah, progress already!



Why is he called that?


----------



## rhitwick (Nov 13, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> Why is he called that?



Even I've the same question...


----------



## Mr.Kickass (Nov 13, 2013)

Gujarat Congress goofs up Rahul Gandhi’s photo with Amul Baby’s


----------



## mediator (Nov 13, 2013)

Meanwhile,

Congress asks Lata Mangeshkar to return her Bharat Ratna.

Strip Lata Mangeshkar of Bharat Ratna, says Congress leader - Indian Express


*s15.postimg.org/7s6gler97/1453489_323582167781438_1701460946_n.jpg
windows screenshot


Dayumnn, she is communal, fascist, right-winged, anti-minority,non-secular. In Manish Tiwari's language, full of inuendoes, hogwash etc. Please fill in if I missed any more GRE terms! 

The fathers of those 7 people who voted for Amul Baby must be really proud!


----------



## ico (Nov 13, 2013)

^ as retarded the comments of that CONgressi were, did you attend any BJP workshop on online posting? I mean, all Sanghis tend to post in a similar typical matter.

Amartya Sen made some foolish comments regarding Modi, and RSS goons were also saying the same thing on Twitter. "RETURN BHARAT RATNA". What's the difference between them and Congress?

Pretty much tells you what's wrong with desi political establishment and public.

The only choice this country has is between Congress whose only intention is to come into power via minority vote bank politics, Sanghi Yindoo goons who tend to to display an IQ that is of primates, anti-national AAP and stupid Marxists/Communists.

No wonder this country is doomed.

The truth is BJP is only a slightly better choice than everyone else as things stand. Congress screwed up in its second term. Don't need them again. Give BJP and Modi a chance to screw up.


----------



## snap (Nov 13, 2013)

mediator said:


> The fathers of those 7 people who voted for Amul Baby must be really proud!



srsly, i think you posted somewhere that don't personalize an argument


----------



## mediator (Nov 13, 2013)

^ See the context.

---------------
Anways,



			
				ico said:
			
		

> Amartya Sen made some foolish comments regarding Modi, and RSS goons  were also saying the same thing on Twitter. "RETURN BHARAT RATNA".  What's the difference between them and Congress?



Here's what Amrtya Sen spoke on Modi

1. he does not have secular credentials
2.  He has not done enough to make minorities feel safe

Who is secular? One who sells the nation to get muslim vote and parades with anti-national, anti-Indian sentiments, goes soft on separatists, jihadis, welcome the likes of Syed Shah Geelani with red-carpet says "Muslims have first right to national resources" and vouches for reservations based on religion in a secular nation?

Who is minority? One whose population is 20% in second most populous country in the world or 2nd highest in the world?

Its funny that the champions of anti-nationalism, one who are hand in gloves with the terrorists, sepratists and distorting Indian history in text books and continue to divide the nation on the basis of religion are talking about secularism and secular certificates!



			
				Supreme_Court said:
			
		

> "This clearly means that, by itself, the word "Hinduism" or "Hindutva" indicates the culture of the people of India as a whole, irrespective of whether they are Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews etc. The Supreme Court Bench has further observed that "the mere fact that these words (Hindutva or Hinduism) are used in the speech would not bring in within the prohibition of sub-section (3) or (3A) of Section 123. It may well be that these words are used in the speech to promote secularism and to emphasize the way of life of the Indian people and the Indian culture or ethos, or to criticize the policy of any political party as discriminatory or intolerant."
> 
> The words "Hindu" and "Hinduism"




Dear Ico, there is a world of difference between Amartya Sen's views and Lata Mangeshkar's opinion of Modi as PM. Former is character assassination and latter is personal view on his/her choice of PM. Former, seems to be ignorant of the term secularism itself; latter, is simply relating her voice like the choice of any voter;former doesn't know how many muslims themselves voted for Modi in Gujarat elections, something paid media never shows;latter is simply singing her choice. 

HAd Amartya sen said anything against AMul Baby, his house and accounts would have been under IT scrutiny, his home ransacked like they did to Anna hazare. Had Amul Baby been in place of Modi in Patna Blasts, he and his minions would have already chickened out of the place, let alone providing composure to the fans like Modi did, whose fans were more than 10 Lakh. Moreover, had it been Amul Baby, the news channels would have made him a hero by now and argued over increasing his personal security for the next one year. Is Sen even a voter in India?

Its easy. Whatever happens, just swap the two PM candidates and realize the reality! Had it been Modi in place of Amul Baby in the above video I posed, paid media would have a got a breaking news for next one year over Modi's incompetency with words like "lack of comprehension skills", "inability to deal with crowd", "fascism" etc!


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (Nov 13, 2013)

I smell a flame war
Koi raaabo ko bulao bhai.


----------



## mediator (Nov 14, 2013)

^No Bro, I'll die of boredom then!


----------



## ico (Nov 14, 2013)

mediator said:


> *Dear Ico, there is a world of difference between Amartya Sen's views and Lata Mangeshkar's opinion of Modi as PM. Former is character assassination and latter is personal view on his/her choice of PM.* Former, seems to be ignorant of the term secularism itself; latter, is simply relating her voice like the choice of any voter;former doesn't know how many muslims themselves voted for Modi in Gujarat elections, something paid media never shows;latter is simply singing her choice.


Can't you read what I wrote? and the question I asked? 



ico said:


> *Amartya Sen made some foolish comments regarding Modi*, and RSS goons were also saying the same thing on Twitter. "RETURN BHARAT RATNA". What's the difference between them and Congress?



"RETURN BHARAT RATNA". What's the difference between them and Congress?

Both set of fanboys are showing a similar IQ regardless of the gravity of opposing comments. There is a world of difference between strongly condemning a comment or expressing disapproval with a healthy state of mind vs coming up with nonsense like "RETURN BHARAT RATNA".

okay, leave the above issue as you missed my point. I just want to know what are your views on the Sanghi speculation of Kejriwal/AAP being a Congressi pawn? yup, Kejriwal hasn't proved himself of any value and can be criticised on many issues but branding him as a Congressi pawn in social media by Sanghis is clever work. They don't want anti-Congress votes to get divided so they utter a lot of nonsensical and speculative bull$hit about Kejriwal. Sanghis aren't playing a fair game as well. Congress never does. As a *neutral*, I can freely see them in proper light and judge.


----------



## mediator (Nov 14, 2013)

^Dunno why you increased the font size and I did read what you wrote, but my reply revolves around this part to be precise



			
				ico said:
			
		

> Amartya Sen made some foolish comments regarding Modi, and RSS goons   were also saying the same thing on Twitter. *"RETURN BHARAT RATNA".   What's the difference between them and Congress?*



I'm least concerned if someone found a comment foolish.


----------



## ico (Nov 14, 2013)

Had to bold it as I very well know what's the difference between a character assassination vs opinion of choice.  You very easily dodged the main question.


mediator said:


> I'm least concerned if someone found a comment foolish.


so, tell me why do both Congressi and Sanghi fanboys have a similar IQ?

haha as retarded as it sounds, if somebody would have been endorsing Amul Baby as his choice of PM, Sanghis would be attacking him in the same way like Lata ji got attacked by Congressis.  (7 people here who voted for him! What I find funny is, you really think people voted for him - look at the lighter side as it is an obvious pisstake btw )


----------



## rhitwick (Nov 14, 2013)

I opted Rahul as PM and then told my father about TDF, and how a forum works and then how its important for him to know my political inclination and then how its important for my choice in a poll in that forum....and then he was really proud of me!

Goal achieved.

So, Mr. BJP fanboy, how did you make MODI proud today?

@mediator, dude you keep on posting same quotes again and again. Even when each words of it had been analysed from all possible angles. What do you wish to achieve with force-feeding us the lame comments every time. 

“Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.”
― Leo Tolstoy, A Confession


----------



## mediator (Nov 14, 2013)

@Ico - Now thats a generalization. If someone attacks Congressies for endorsing Amul Baby or if someone vouches for Modi, he is not necessarily a Sanghi. Just like you equate A Sanghi with primates, many people equate Congressies/Amul Baby with baboons or people with dyslexia. I'm least concerned on how people judge.

And C'mon, you really think that I think they voted or will vote for him/Amul Baby?

We are in FIGHt CLUB. Why do people keep forgetting that? Its even more funny that when serious discussion is around, people start judging the debator, his tone, his arrogance and imagine his tone in a non-verbal forum discussion and when simple non-intellectual discussion in the spirit of FIGHT CLUB is around, people start intellectualising on the comments with statements like "i think you posted somewhere that don't personalize an argument". Too much analysis without comprehending the context and we have  perfect mocktail leading to eternal hopeless inetellectual insomnia. To make matters worse ADMIN comes in and I die a painful death! 

And I agree with you, lets assume and hope with our heavy hearts that its a pisstake! This pisstake is powerful enough to give people a heart attack.


Meanwhile, Amul Baby's character has already been designed in NCERT text books! From genes of "chacha nehru", I guess we'll be having "Rahul the saviour" in next 10 years. 

*s24.postimg.org/tay7ygsit/image.jpg
print screen


----------



## Anorion (Nov 14, 2013)

mediator said:


> baboons or people with dyslexia


hmm. whats wrong with baboons. i liek baboons. dont diss baboons.


----------



## mediator (Nov 14, 2013)

Meanwhile, Amul Baby was found partying after 26/11 and  Shinde at the launch of movie Rajjo during/after Patna Blasts, while  Salman Rushdie who testified on the beauty of China and desires to stay  in it talks about Page 3 life of Shinde. Oh well, who cares, after all SHinde did affirmed once during coalgate scam i.e Public has short memory span and will forget everything! :'(


*timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/...tending-music-launch/articleshow/24855502.cms

Come to think of it, seems "chacha nehru" also had a life beyond India......

*s24.postimg.org/3xjvnyued/1426411_10152008930829511_1970833696_n.jpg
free photo upload

*s22.postimg.org/rr3lccs1p/nehru1.jpg


Imagine the news on paid media, if in place of Chidambaram, it had been Modi

*s16.postimg.org/wclpbgcvp/1425793_10152006567469511_1379045691_n.jpg
image hosting websites


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## rhitwick (Nov 14, 2013)

You won't like to be quoted out-of-context but you are allowed to do so?

Post the backdrop of the images you posted.

Then post the conversation that had happened in between them. We can then fully and rightfully judge who's right and who's not.


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## Anorion (Nov 14, 2013)

the backdrop is appealing to bigotry, not a sensible argument

cant argue with an offensive robotic rabble-rouser

@mediator, here is something you could use. collective noun for baboons is... congress


----------



## snap (Nov 14, 2013)

*Re: Indian Economy Going down*

as raaabo rightfully said



Raaabo said:


> I am happy that you seem to be the minority here, and that most members of the forum are not sinking to your level. It gives me more hope for the youth of this country, a subset of which is represented on this forum. Also, please refrain from making communal statements that you obviously cannot prove, because that is whats wrong with our country to begin with. You have every right to quote your own religion and beliefs, but you have no right to call others names, or ridicule their beliefs. By very definition, "faith" is what you believe in the absence of fact, and it's best that religion be left at that - faith, because no religion has any facts that can be verified scientifically or logically. Besides, if you believe it, why care about whether others do or do not.


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (Nov 14, 2013)

mediator said:


> *s16.postimg.org/wclpbgcvp/1425793_10152006567469511_1379045691_n.jpg
> image hosting websites



Is that the same stuff squiggled on Saudi Arabia's flag?


----------



## ico (Nov 14, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> I opted Rahul as PM and then told my father about TDF, and how a forum works and then how its important for him to know my political inclination and then how its important for my choice in a poll in that forum....and then he was really proud of me!


Sorry mate, but if you're serious about Rahul being PM, then my country will die yet another hopeless death. It's been the case since 2000+ years.

We don't need a dynasty here. Congress has screwed up big time in this term. They shouldn't be given a next term. I'm not attached to any party's ideology. Ideology toh sirf mazzaak hai - chahe 'secularism' ho ya 'hindutva', sirf vote batorne ke liye ye natak hota hai.

I will vote for BJP. Not because I'm attracted by their ideology. But only because I care for my country. I don't want a failed government to drive it for another 5 years. BJP and Modi should be given a chance because the current government has failed. yeah, after they fail in their term, then I don't see any harm in voting for the pseudosecular Congress for whatever reasons. (but no ****ing Rahul Gandhi ffs! WE ARE NOT A MONARCHY WHAT THE HELL HAS HE DONE????)

If you fail, you don't deserve a second (continuous) chance. That's how I see it.

Hurts that the only options we have in this country are BJP and Congress.  Sab mazzaak hai. India mazzaak hai. India ke log mazzaak hai. Koyi sahi insaan kuch sahi karna chahe toh bhi nahi kar sakta!


----------



## rhitwick (Nov 14, 2013)

^Why I chose Congress:-

>MMS. I trust that man. There are n00bs in both paties but Congress can boast of having more capable men at any time.
>Secular approach.
>I've seen the change in my state. Mamata in place of CPI (M/L). We are no more sure if we were in bad condition at the time of CPI (M/L) or now.

>>What may work in favor of Congress:-
Simple math. Look at the number of allies they have and compare with BJP's. They are on the majority.


----------



## Vyom (Nov 14, 2013)

ico said:


> Hurts that the only options we have in this country are BJP and Congress.



Erm.. what about the recent choice: AAP?

Btw, nicely written that post.


----------



## ico (Nov 14, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> ^Why I chose Congress:-
> 
> >MMS. I trust that man. There are n00bs in both paties but Congress can boast of having more capable men at any time.
> *>Secular approach.*
> ...


Their approach is anything but secular. 

What does secular actually mean? It is NOT "acceptance of all religions, minorities and communities". It means state/governance/politics being separate from religion. No party in India is secular. You just can't keep this nonsense out.

Shouting "we are secular" is anything but secular. Your actions will itself prove it. Both parties have caused riots or may be failed to control them. I mean, how do people easily forget the Sikh massacre of 1984 Delhi?

Regarding Manmohan Singh, I just thank him for everything he did under PV Narsimha Rao. I wouldn't be able to make this post via my laptop using Wifi in my home if he wasn't there. But he is not a leader. A PM has to be a leader. I do have some admiration in my gut for Indira Gandhi. Many wrong things she did, some right but she had balls.


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (Nov 14, 2013)

If i was 18 i would vote for Modi,Even though he is a communal doucebag,*Atleast* he *might* make India a bit better,We should atleast give them  a chance
Face it,Both parties are hell bent on slicing the country on the basis of religion,communalism(I WANT A NEW STATE,OR I IMMOLATE MY SELF!!!!!Congress : No,BJP : YESSS.VOTE FOR US AND WE GIFF YOU NEW STATE/BJP : No.Congress :YESSS.VOTE FOR US AND WE GIFF YOU NEW STATE )



ico said:


> Their approach is anything but secular.
> 
> *What does secular actually mean? It is NOT "acceptance of all religions, minorities and communities". It means state/governance/politics being separate from religion. No party in India is secular. You just can't keep this nonsense out.*
> 
> ...



InB4
Definition of secularism by *some court*
*Some legal talk basically meaning this "acceptance of all religions, minorities and communities"*
*what you say is the murican definition of secularism*
When i read this


> "acceptance of all religions, minorities and communities"


I felt a sense of deja vu,as if i had read this in some civics textbook


Vyom said:


> Erm.. w*hat about the recent choice: AAP*?
> 
> Btw, nicely written that post.



That's just a gimmick


----------



## whitestar_999 (Nov 15, 2013)

both congress & BJP are bad parties if strictly considering the nation's interests but as of now congress has done much more harm to nation in its 8 year rule compared to BJP's rule from 1998-2004.as of now congress stands guilty of destroying both India's economy & India's position in its neighbourhood as well as the world.no matter how bad BJP is right now i don't think it is possible for it to become worse than congress even if it tries.


----------



## theserpent (Nov 15, 2013)

As Rahul enter Wankdee stadium all scream MODI
*www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10202326583155191



whitestar_999 said:


> both congress & BJP are bad parties if strictly considering the nation's interests but as of now congress has done much more harm to nation in its 8 year rule compared to BJP's rule from 1998-2004.as of now congress stands guilty of destroying both India's economy & India's position in its neighbourhood as well as the world.no matter how bad BJP is right now i don't think it is possible for it to become worse than congress even if it tries.



This.
Seeing what happened in Wankadee stadium,It's 95% sure Modi will Win


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (Nov 15, 2013)

theserpent said:


> As Rahul enter Wankdee stadium all scream MODI
> *www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10202326583155191
> 
> 
> ...



Amul Babaji ki epic bezati


----------



## funskar (Nov 16, 2013)

When amul baby entered wankhede n camera was on him at the same time the master got out..

Panauti for everybody


----------



## Hrishi (Nov 16, 2013)

The problem is that in certain areas Congress ministers have done much better development thann their BJP counterparts. Now not voting for them might become difficult for some people who want development locally.


----------



## ico (Nov 16, 2013)

Vyom said:


> *Erm.. what about the recent choice: AAP?*
> 
> Btw, nicely written that post.


They don't have the right people. For example, Prashant Bhushan. But same is true for every party of India.

I see them as a party of rejects. But yes, we do need an option other than the big two.

I'm willing to give them a chance, but not in the coming elections. May be next. Most likely they'd cause a cut in BJP's vote share. Their base is only in Delhi anyway. Anti-Congress votes will get divided into BJP and AAP. You can see because of this reason, Kejriwal/AAP and co are also frequent targets of the Sanghis apart from the usual Rahul/Congress.

One thing is, "Aam Aadmi Party" is a hilarious name for a party. Ridiculous.


----------



## ico (Nov 16, 2013)

Just for the laughs. Sanghi speculation is really hilarious. lol @ the URL title btw.

JAWAHAR LAL NEHRU: NEHRU DIED OF TERTIARY SYPHILIS-AORTIC ANEURYSM


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (Nov 16, 2013)

^
These sanghi's


----------



## Renny (Nov 17, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> ^Why I chose Congress:-
> 
> >MMS. I trust that man. There are n00bs in both paties but Congress can boast of having more capable men at any time.
> >Secular approach.
> ...




> MMS has great qualifications on paper,. What has he done in the last 5 years? Economy? Corruption? Worst of all foreign policy? When our soldiers were beheaded and shelled at the LOC, didn't he go ahead and meet the paki PM despite him calling MMS a dehati aurat? You have confidence in such a man?
Development has happened because of the people, IN-SPITE of this government.
Even if others in the party have "qualifications", how are they using that capability of theirs except for keeping a foreign dynasty afloat?
What has RG done compared to Modi? What post has he held? What is he except an heir of a foreign dynasty? *Please put forth facts about his achievements.*

> Congressis are pseudo-secular, not secular. They appease the minority and bash the majority. Have you heard about the communal violence bill? You think that's "secular"?
Riots under congress:
From Indian Express
RIOTS UNDER CONGRESS:
1. 1984 anti Sikh riots
2. Assam Riots of 2012
3. 1989 Bhagalpur Riots
4. Gujarat Riots of 1969
5. Bombay Riots, 1992-93
6. Kashmir Riots, 1990 to Present Day
7. Our Minister of external affairs (Khurshid) justifying the killing of Hindus and Sikhs during partition and Indira Gandhi's death
And countless more.

> Anti-incumbency is vital. Its not wise keeping a party ruling for 10+ years, change and competition is always needed. 10+ years of rule translates almost into an almost authoritarian rule. Look at what happened to WB under Jyoti Basu.

AAP is just another congress in the making.

> Arving Kejriwal single handedly sabotages Anna Hazare's movement.
> Meets a cleric who issues fatwas for killings and beheadings.
> Hinting at an alliance with congress.
> Shazia Ilmi (worth crores) comes from a long line of congressis.
> Kejriwal's views on Batla house
> Prashant Bhushan anti-national stand on Kashmir


----------



## mediator (Nov 18, 2013)

An excellent post @Renny.

My two cents. Apart from that AAP's Prashant Bhushan opines to give away Kashmir, Kejriwal doubts Batla House encounter and insults the death of late Mohan Chand Sharma with his views. Moreover, Kejriwal gave some highly intelligent solutions to corruption like boycotting the electricity bills as if he and his workers would guarantee electricity to the houses or compensate for the subsequent inconveniences!

Islamists In Pakistan Launch Online Donation Campaign For Aam Aadmi Party? | Covert Wires

Meanwhile, Amul Baby finishes his written speech in 7 minutes. A commendable job indeed!  While Shiela begs people not to leave and atleast hear and see her Amul Baby open his mouth ....


*timesofindia.indiatimes.com/assemb...ting-as-people-leave/articleshow/25959271.cms

Epic !! Sheela begging to Delhi Public "Arre Rahul ji Ka Bhashan To Sun Ke Jaaiye" !! - YouTube

She thinks people are hungry. What if someone needs to go to a washroom?


----------



## Renny (Nov 18, 2013)

@ mediator, thanks for the info about Prashant Bhushan, also didn't know about Kejriwal's line on Batla house (looks like he took a leaf from Diggy there).

LOL @Dixit begging people to stay - Totally hilarious!!


----------



## Tech_chaos (Nov 18, 2013)

The most funniest n crack jacked bhasan of amul baby was when he told gujarat is bigger than uk n india is bigger than us n europe joint together


----------



## mediator (Nov 18, 2013)

^O Yes. But hold your horses and watch the below video

*s7.postimg.org/mgp2r9v17/599754_311432698996490_1008688064_n.jpg
screen capture freeware

*www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10202349591970397&set=vb.252382316547&type=2&theater

Apparently, Amul Baby thinks Karantaka and Maharasthra are BJP rules states! Meanwhile, Baboon Party leaders say NO to Amul Baby

à¤•à¤¾à¤‚à¤—à¥à¤°à¥‡à¤¸ à¤¨à¥‡à¤¤à¤¾à¤“à¤‚ à¤•à¥€ à¤…à¤ªà¥€à¤², à¤¨à¥‹ à¤°à¤¾à¤¹à¥à¤² à¤ªà¥à¤²à¥€à¤œ! - Rahul's rallies do not want their candidates - Navbharat Times


Seriously, I believe the best campaigner for BJP after Modi is Amul Baby.  He should make more rallies, make "secular" people on forums proud of him, swear to vote for him and proudly tell their famiy about it.

I wonder what MMS is upto.

*s12.postimg.org/8fzjpj2d9/941706_530310253677066_16988319_n.jpg
capture screen


Later Updates --
Anna Hazare writes to Arvind Kejriwal, expresses displeasure over misuse of his name and IAC funds in Delhi Elections


----------



## funskar (Nov 18, 2013)

Ravish kumar ndtv reporter who used toh scold n bash modi & gujarat ..
Now shocked from the publRavish kr Blog


----------



## ico (Nov 20, 2013)

"NaMo Namah" is grammatically incorrect if 'NaMo' is being treated as a noun. I see Sanghis using this phrase quite often.

 @ Shiela.


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## mediator (Nov 21, 2013)

Meanwhile, you are being presented with the Jhola Gang.

So remember last week, the hue and cry over a state surveillance issue ?  A state has many reasons to keep tab on it's citizens. Sometimes it's  for security of the state, sometimes it's for security of people under  watch themselves. The woman and her family have clearly expressed their  confidence in the Gujarat Govt. but this Jhola Gang was quick to exploit  public sentiment by speaking lies and twisted facts.

 Snap back  to present. An editor in chief of a commie-favorite media group,  Tehelka, has been found involved in sexual assault. No woman's right's  activists (NCW wants a complain filed first), no black flags at India  Gate, no heated debates. Leave alone a press conference by these  communists.
 What they forgot however, is that in days of social  media , people are no longer dependent upon these communists for their  information. Alas !

 What's  worse ? Mr. Javed Akhtar found it appropriate to support that pervert  Tejpal by saying "..unlike some he(Tejpal) has the guts to accept and  repent"
 (*twitter.com/Javedakhtarjadu/status/403357652358397952)
 Mr. Akhtar, FYI, he did not 'accept' , it was made public (even after  Ms Shoma Chaudhary,Managing Editor of Tehelka Magazine, decided to hush  the matter for over a week. A link to the letter: - Tehelka Editor Tarun Tejpal ne kiya Halka - Goa Mein (with tweets) · gogodile · Storify)
 and his so called repentance ? a 6 month holiday (disguised as 'stepping down').
 Now now, which sexual assaulter does that on being caught? what high morales !

*s13.postimg.org/lq5rm6snr/jhola_gang.jpg
image hosting 20mb

I wonder whatever happened to Vadra Land deals, infinite number of scams and Amul Baby rape case. Such a defeaning media silence on such issues is peculiar! Its funny that whene Vadra is in the news, some Hindu Baba is shown for the next few months with scandal, crime or on an average 2002 riots invoked by the media.

MediaCrooks: Rahul Gandhi – Sukanya Case: Amazing Media Silence


----------



## rhitwick (Nov 21, 2013)

mediator said:


> Meanwhile, you are being presented with the Jhola Gang.
> 
> So remember last week, the hue and cry over a state surveillance issue ?  A state has many reasons to keep tab on it's citizens. Sometimes it's  for security of the state, sometimes it's for security of people under  watch themselves. The woman and her family have clearly expressed their  confidence in the Gujarat Govt. but this Jhola Gang was quick to exploit  public sentiment by speaking lies and twisted facts.
> 
> ...



I guess they did not seem it fitting to take permission from you before protesting!

B/w what is your issue here?
a>Is it..."they are protesting only on topics that are against Modi"
or
b>"they are protesting on a topic that is against Modi whereas none is paying attention to the Tehelka sexual assault case"
or
c>You don't like *THEM* protesting on anything.

b/w any NITI Central link on Modi's "Mohanlal..." comment? 

Rahul Gandhi gives speech
Rahul Gandhi makes mistake
Rahul Gandhi hai hai!!!
but,
Modi gives speech
Modi makes mistake
Modi just had a slip-of-tongue

Dual standard of Sanghis like you!


----------



## Flash (Nov 24, 2013)

[IMGG]*media2.intoday.in/indiatoday/images/stories//2013november/modi-350_112313014858.gif[/IMGG]


----------



## mediator (Nov 27, 2013)

O'Ryt meanwhile Amul Baby is certified as PM of India, future of India BY Diggy Doggy; 

We have,

Lata Mangeshkar -> "I want Modi to become PM" => Congress -> Strip her of her Bharat Ratna
Goldman Sachs ->  "Predicts Modi's Victory in 2014" => Congress -> Goldman sachs should not interfere in India's internal affairs

Now, Modi listed by Time Magazine -> Modi shortlisted by Time magazine for Person of the Year title - The Hindu  => COngress ??? -> Time Magazine -> Communal, fasicst, anti-minority, <fill in the blanks>???

I wonder if the News channels can debate over the "Underachiever" label of Time Magazine for Maunmohan and "Person of the year" for Modi. I wonder why Amul Baby is never shown on interviews, Janata/Aap ki Adalat, I guess coffee with Karan would also do.

Can anyone please tell me what really Amul Baby has done, administered even a village etc so that people can stand up, tell their family that they willl vote for AMul Baby and their family can ackowledge that they are proud of him/her? 


Meanwhile, the paid media dogs get a slap for their virtual reality of Modi having applied for any Visa. I wonder when will they start talking about Amul Baby caught at Boston airport with the daughter of Drug Mafia with inexplicable cash for which Babon Party had to beg to Vajpayee to bring him back.

Nidhi Razdan of NDTV ripped by British MP Barry Gardiner over Narendra Modi being invited to UK - YouTube


----------



## amjath (Nov 27, 2013)

Do u guys know if NOTA gets upper hand, there is no reelection. U guys know that.


----------



## Ronnie11 (Dec 2, 2013)

mediator said:


> We have,
> 
> Lata Mangeshkar -> "I want Modi to become PM" => Congress -> Strip her of her Bharat Ratna
> Goldman Sachs ->  "Predicts Modi's Victory in 2014" => Congress -> Goldman sachs should not interfere in India's internal affairs



Well thats just old school politics...didn't bjp threaten the same thing against amartya sen and another person(forgot the name,sorry).Chandan mitra came on tv and threatened to take away the bharat ratna and throw him off the country.. No one takes this seriously nowadays..same could be said about the channels prediction of results.. last elections when UPA was shown to be leading, NDA said ban polls. Now that the tables are turned, we see UPA asking for a ban.


----------



## rhitwick (Dec 2, 2013)

Modi's Fake Twitter followers revealed



> Cobrapost, in a recent sting operation has claimed that certain IT companies were supplying fake followers on Facebook and Twitter, thus misusing social media platforms by artificially boosting popularity of politicians and maligning their rivals. Cobrapost did name around two dozen such companies but did not expose the actual celebrities who avail the services of these fraudulent companies or artificially inflate their fan following using fake followers.
> 
> We at Truth of Gujarat have undertaken an exercise to analyse the Twitter followers of several celebrities in different fields like politics, cinema, journalism etc to place before our netizens the degree of inflation of their followers list. We are aware that certain websites are already in the cyberspace claiming that they can find a ratio of good vs inactive vs fake followers on Twitter but we believe that none of them apply a realistic algorithm to distinguish the fake from the good followers. We also believe that there cannot be any absolute criteria to classify a follower as fake or good or inactive but a comparative study can be made between similarly placed celebrities.
> 
> We start with the question as to what indicates that a particular twitter user is possibly “fake” and doesn’t represent a real person? Perhaps the one that never tweets, has no followers, never changes the default twitter image (egg), has an incredulous twitter id, would fit in the category of a fake follower. Also the typical characteristic of a fake follower is that they exclusively follow celebrities and never seem to have any real friends on Twitter. As illustration we are applying the above criteria to Mr Narendra Modi, Mr Rajnath Singh and Mr Digvijay Singh.



Visit the link to find the statistics table.


----------



## ico (Dec 2, 2013)

^ completely true.

Having a huge online propaganda brigade has been BJP's strategy this time. You can't win election in India otherwise. I won't say it's wrong.


----------



## mediator (Dec 2, 2013)

Fake followers hmmm, even I don't see any wrong in that. It is much better than faking Gandhi surname, when the real name Raul Vinci, hiding connections with daughter of drug mafia where Amul Baby was caught at Boston airport and breeding pets like Tehelka and paid Media to defame the rival politicians. Every political party is hiring for fake followers. Dunno whats the qualm.


Meanwhile,

Which media channel has the guts to discuss this?

*s29.postimg.org/4vreurrlj/1462588_335752759897712_341651895_o.jpg
windows screenshot


Meanwhile, AAP Removed Receipt from List Section. Now they can say Proudly Receipts no. were not fraud. 


*s24.postimg.org/dhevupqqd/1453514_263501933803008_1729323747_n.jpg
image hosting This is Complaint copy

 Complaint Against AAP for fraudulent act of issuing donation receipts with same receipt numbers to Multiple donors


----------



## snap (Dec 2, 2013)

@mediator hiding and lurking waiting for this thread to be updated


----------



## ico (Dec 2, 2013)

*"Respected Sir"* -


----------



## mediator (Dec 2, 2013)

snap said:
			
		

> @mediator hiding and lurking waiting for this thread to be updated


Dayumnn, you got me there!

*s30.postimg.org/s7memh7y9/1469977_527344697361474_1754438979_n.jpg
imgurl



			
				ico said:
			
		

> *"Respected Sir"
> *


*
Yeah, lol  

*Talking about faking followers dunno why Amul Baby is faking intelligence and other people faking pride telling their parents about chosing the fake product.
*
*s27.postimg.org/qeldr6uzj/1458535_539633582796297_1098056807_n.jpg
*


----------



## rhitwick (Dec 2, 2013)

mediator said:


> *s27.postimg.org/qeldr6uzj/1458535_539633582796297_1098056807_n.jpg
> [/B]



Ahahahaha...

Kinda applies to Modi too.

His recent bloopers on Indian history were...well....quite famous! May be you decided either to ignore them or take them on face value 

b/w quoting myself again,



> Rahul Gandhi gives speech
> Rahul Gandhi makes mistake
> Rahul Gandhi hai hai!!!
> but,
> ...


----------



## Vyom (Dec 2, 2013)

For all of you, and especially for those who are not the supporters of AAP:

Yes, AAP shouldn’t be allowed to win Delhi elections, and this is how you can achieve it - Indian Exponent


----------



## rhitwick (Dec 3, 2013)

ROFL...



> After declaring Congress President Sonia Gandhi the 12th richest leader in the world three days ago, the Huffington Post has deleted her name from the list with rejoinder.
> 
> The Huffington Post report now carries a footnote at the bottom of the article stating, "Sonia Gandhi and the former emir of Qatar Hamid bin Khalifa al-Thani have been removed from this list. *Gandhi was originally included based on a listing on a third party site which was subsequently called into question*. Our editors have been unable to verify the amount, removed the link, and regret any confusion."



I wonder if that "third party" site was developed by some desperate Sanghis 

Huffington Post deletes Sonia from the richest world leader’s list


----------



## ico (Dec 3, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> ROFL...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ffs, do you really think Sonia Gandhi's net worth is merely 1.2 crore?

If anybody in this country thinks so, he should be shot dead. No wonder the rats living in this country needs to be tortured. One more term for ze Congress!

I seriously wonder why don't we have people who know how to call a spade a spade in this country. Everyone is blinded by their political allegiance.


----------



## rhitwick (Dec 3, 2013)

ico said:


> ffs, do you really think Sonia Gandhi's net worth is merely 1.2 crore?
> 
> If anybody in this country thinks so, he should be shot dead. No wonder the rats living in this country needs to be tortured. One more term for ze Congress!
> 
> I seriously wonder why don't we have people who know how to call a spade a spade in this country. Everyone is blinded by their political allegiance.


it does not matter what I think or or what I think what 'should be'. Only thing matters is 'what is'

At present its proved that she's worth 1.2 crore. If its proved otherwise I'll believe, till then don't kill me for this petty thought of mine. I'm known to have much more dirtier thoughts.

b/w if believing is that important, I believe Modi is too having millions of $ as asset, only we could not trace it yet. I believe if he has been the PM of Guajraat for 15 years, he must have secured his future, I believe he's tainted as fcuk but claims to be a saint.

But, does my thinking actually matter or should it? Has he become a corrupt politician just because I want to believe it?


----------



## ico (Dec 3, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> it does not matter what I think or or what I think what 'should be'. Only thing matters is 'what is'
> 
> At present its proved that she's worth 1.2 crore. If its proved otherwise I'll believe, till then don't kill me for this petty thought of mine. I'm known to have much more dirtier thoughts.
> 
> ...


Stop playing that Modi card on me. Unlike you who will disagree with me with regards to Sonia Gandhi, I will happily agree with you with regards to Modi. See the difference? My brain cells still work.  "Agar mai aisa, toh tu aisa." "Agar mera bhagwaan aisa, toh tera aisa." - this thinking is wrong.

I've written a lot of times that I don't have any allegiance with either of them. Neither a Modi bhakt, nor a Congi cocksucker. Not even a believer in Kejriwal's utopia. I'm neutral with regards to all this nonsense and I will always post what is _fair_ without any prejudice.

If you seriously believe that Sonia Gandhi's networth is 1.2 crore, then honestly my net worth is more than hers.  What I said about myself is true. I still can't believe that I'm richer than Sonia Gandhi.


----------



## Hrishi (Dec 3, 2013)

Tommorow elections here in Delhi , people in my area are saying that AAP is going to do good this time , I mean AAP has managed to get the minority votes too. Had talk with few politically active people around here in society , ( some uncles ) , who are saying that AAP is going to get decent results in east delhi .


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## ico (Dec 3, 2013)

^ someone in direct relation has election duty in Gole Market where Kejriwal, Dikshit and some BJP dude are contesting.


----------



## Ronnie11 (Dec 4, 2013)

ico said:


> Stop playing that Modi card on me. Unlike you who will disagree with me with regards to Sonia Gandhi, I will happily agree with you with regards to Modi. See the difference? My brain cells still work.  "Agar mai aisa, toh tu aisa." "Agar mera bhagwaan aisa, toh tera aisa." - this thinking is wrong.
> 
> I've written a lot of times that I don't have any allegiance with either of them. Neither a Modi bhakt, nor a Congi cocksucker. Not even a believer in Kejriwal's utopia. I'm neutral with regards to all this nonsense and I will always post what is _fair_ without any prejudice.
> 
> If you seriously believe that Sonia Gandhi's networth is 1.2 crore, then honestly my net worth is more than hers.  What I said about myself is true. I still can't believe that I'm richer than Sonia Gandhi.



Finally some sense in this cong/bjp thread...kudos man for writing one of the most sensible post in this thread...


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## avj (Dec 4, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> ROFL...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And you believe whatever there in the link is true??
2.5 kg of gold is only 11 lakhs??? wonder if she would sell them at that price
if u are thinking the data is from 2009 then taking a value of Rs 1400 per gram (which is still low compared to actual prices in 2009) 2.5kg roughly corresponds to 35 lakhs.
A house in italy worth only 18 lakhs??(may be true but very faint chance considering prices in india and her character)
And silver is only 20k per kg.
what she has declared is definitely peanuts compared to what she own plus they severely under valued even in 2009. 
And u post it here without even checking the facts which u dont even have to closely scrutinize to notice that they are wrong.
No wonder u support CON-gress as no human who can think will support them after all they have done.
Btw refrain from posting links from NDTV and CNN-IBN they are clearly bought by the same plague of our country.


----------



## rhitwick (Dec 4, 2013)

avj said:


> And you believe whatever there in the link is true??
> 2.5 kg of gold is only 11 lakhs??? wonder if she would sell them at that price
> if u are thinking the data is from 2009 then taking a value of Rs 1400 per gram (which is still low compared to actual prices in 2009) 2.5kg roughly corresponds to 35 lakhs.
> A house in italy worth only 18 lakhs??(may be true but very faint chance considering prices in india and her character)
> ...


:sigh:


			
				rhitwick said:
			
		

> *it does not matter what I think or what I think what 'should be'. Only thing matters is 'what is'*
> 
> At present its *proved* that she's worth 1.2 crore. If its proved otherwise I'll believe, till then don't kill me for this petty thought of mine. I'm known to have much more dirtier thoughts.
> 
> ...





> Btw refrain from posting links from NDTV and CNN-IBN they are clearly bought by the same plague of our country.


I'll post links from anywhere I wish to.


----------



## Faun (Dec 4, 2013)

How does it feel like to be edgy ?


----------



## avj (Dec 4, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> :sigh:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll post links from anywhere I wish to.



So u still *accept* she's worth only 1.2 crore?? sigh!!
You can post any link u want but it must have some credibility for sane people to believe it.


----------



## rhitwick (Dec 4, 2013)

avj said:


> So u still *accept* she's worth only 1.2 crore?? sigh!!
> You can post any link u want but it must have some credibility for sane people to believe it.


I don't understand this philosophy...

few days back "Huffington post" published a news based on some 3rd part website, and then they took that news down because they alone were not convinced.

That "huffingtonpost" news is credible, authentic and what not just because a large portion of the mass want to believe it. 

Why then ignore the next part that the news agency took that post down saying they could not authenticate the claims of that 3rd party website. Does this become wrong, immoral, stupid because *'YOU'* do not want to believe it.

“I'm for truth, no matter who tells it. I'm for justice, no matter who it is for or against." .... Malcolm X


----------



## Renny (Dec 4, 2013)

For the wrongly informed supports of MMS who are confident in him: 
*It was Subramanian Swamy (Senior BJP leader now) who laid the foundation of the 1991 economic reforms, NOT MMS.*
MMS was just the executor, the idea and blueprint was Mr. Swamy's - to whom the credit must go, not MMS.
Currently too MMS is just the executor of Sonia G's plans 

-----------------------------------------------

@ rhitwick
Argue with some sense please, is there any report which claims Modi has made billions through corruption (let alone lakhs or millions)?

And you claim secularism, be REAL. Did you see the links with the number of riots under the BJP and Congress? Those facts alone show 95% of riots under Congress, so how can you call them secular?

In 2002 a train containing Hindu pilgrims was burnt by Muslim fanatics. 
Which community wouldn't retaliate under such an attack? Modi brought in the Army within 24 hours and controlled the situation. 1000s of Hindu's were arrested as a precautionary measure. 

Hindu's are no ones punching bag, we will stand up for our rights, and attack back when attacked - This has been labelled as communalsim and anti-secularism by the UPA and mainstream media propaganda - The result of which we have brainwashed and ill-informed people.

-----------------------------------------------


*UPA vs NDA:*

Trade deficit:
2004: (-) $13.16 billion.
2013: (-) $180 billion.

Fiscal deficit:
2004: 4.7% of GDP.
2013: 4.8% of GDP.

Inflation:
1998-2004: 5%.
2004-2013: 9% (Both figures are averaged out over their respective tenures).

External Debt:
March 2004: $111.6 billion.
March 2013: $390 billion.

Jobs:
1999-2004: 60 million new jobs created.
2004-11: 14.6 million jobs created.

Subsidies:
2004: Rs. 44,327 crore.
2013: Rs. 2,31,584 crore.

These numbers are available acorss the net, Google them.
NDA has out-performed the UPA consistently across the spectrum. Where does this support for the UPA come from?

-----------------------------------------------

Please stop degrading others by referring to them as Sanghis (which actually means peace-maker), lets have discussions without personal attacks.


----------



## ico (Dec 4, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> I don't understand this philosophy...
> 
> few days back "Huffington post" published a news based on some 3rd part website, and then they took that news down because they alone were not convinced.
> 
> ...


This country will not go anywhere if people start ignoring the obvious.

Surely that $2 billion figure can't be trusted, but do you think that 1.2 crore rupees figure can be trusted?

The logic you are applying for defending Sonia Gandhi, it's the same logic which Sanghis use for defending (rather justifying) Modi's failure of controlling riots. They say, court has given him a clean chit. Everyone chooses to only believe only those things which are favourable to their "allegiance".

Read my post #605 and if your brain cells start to work, then reply.

I'm all for supporting Congress, BJP or any party you like. But never ignore the obvious. A human being should display a certain amount of intellect. No wonder you don't find it in this country.



Renny said:


> For the wrongly informed supports of MMS who are confident in him:
> *It was Subramanian Swamy (Senior BJP leader now) who laid the foundation of the 1991 economic reforms, NOT MMS.*
> MMS was just the executor, the idea and blueprint was Mr. Swamy's - to whom the credit must go, not MMS.
> Currently too MMS is just the executor of Madamji's plans


Hardly matters. MMS (pre PM era) wasn't a stupid guy either. Swamy is a good guy, but he is bitter about a few things and does have a habit of claiming too much. His views on Atal Bihari Vajpayee might interest you.


----------



## Renny (Dec 4, 2013)

^ Matters because everyone thinks it was solely MMSs doing.

Swamy's views on Vijpayee are indeed curious, and a bit hard to believe; the funny thing is they could be true, we'll never know for sure.


----------



## snap (Dec 4, 2013)

as ico said no party can be justified or defended they all are corrupt


----------



## rhitwick (Dec 4, 2013)

Renny said:


> @ rhitwick
> Argue with some sense please, is there any report which claims Modi has made billions through corruption (let alone lakhs or millions)?


So, no report is better than fake report, right?




> Please stop degrading others by referring to them as Sanghis (which actually means peace-maker), lets have discussions without personal attacks.


How's it degrading if it means "peace-maker"?!



			
				ico said:
			
		

> This country will not go anywhere if people start ignoring the obvious.


If its not proved, it hardly matters what is obvious. Again, something just does not become truth just by thinking it as the obvious, highly likely.



> Surely that $2 billion figure can't be trusted, but do you think that 1.2 crore rupees figure can be trusted?
> 
> The logic you are applying for defending Sonia Gandhi, it's the same logic which Sanghis use for defending (rather justifying) Modi's failure of controlling riots. They say, court has given him a clean chit. Everyone chooses to only believe only those things which are favourable to their "allegiance".


Agree. Again, the obvious thing that I believe that Modi had direct role in that incident. But, our law has passed a different judgement on that. I can shout on top of my voice that its an obvious thing that Modi is guilty but who would believe me. And, should they?



> Read my post #605 and if your brain cells start to work, then reply.
> 
> I'm all for supporting Congress, BJP or any party you like. But never ignore the obvious. A human being should display a certain amount of intellect. No wonder you don't find it here.


IDK man, if someone has such problem with her assets why not raise an RTI and expose her. Why are we even debating over a fake news and what the ugly truth is.
Don't you think exposing Sonia could be a crucial move for BJP? They forever played that "foreigner" card about her. 
Why aren't they raising the RTI hell out of her? Or may be they are doing that but not finding anything worthwhile to mention.

Once again,
No proof=not guilty. PERIOD


----------



## Ronnie11 (Dec 4, 2013)

@avj..Ok i have to ask this again..Why do people especially modi fans feel only NDTV and CNN IBN are bought..Any convincing proof...also interesting to note of no mention of times now..Is it because of arnab goswami who shouts at almost every guy in his panel..In the previous elections, i distinctly remember that some bjp fans were crying that the times group are paid medias and since its owned by a christian group, they are soft on matters to Congress. How has this argument changed since times now too is part of times group. Or whoever does more bashing than others are not paid news..Have seen many good news stories by both cnn ibn and ndtv criticising both upa and nda but that somehow seems unnoticed. Now i personally do not like barkha dutt either but then just because i do not like her doesn't mean i am going to tear down their entire company. (Ps:- no, i have not been paid by anyone)



Renny said:


> For the wrongly informed supports of MMS who are confident in him:
> *It was Subramanian Swamy (Senior BJP leader now) who laid the foundation of the 1991 economic reforms, NOT MMS.*.


what??Subramanian swamy??!!Before this people were claiming narasimha rao was the pioneer..infact that was the allegation by swamy himself.

Honestly you cannot take swamy personally after reading some of his opinions especially after the mumbai terror attacks where he suggested that we take over bangladesh and taking down some  muslim sites as a tit for tat..


----------



## whitestar_999 (Dec 4, 2013)

*it was not Subramanian Swamy or Manmohan Singh but probably India's most shrewd PM ever,PV Narsimharao who made possible 1991 economic reforms.if anyone says otherwise then most like he or she lacks in-depth knowledge regarding this matter.*

@rhitwick,you need to expand your practical knowledge regarding indian politics.even in indian politics there are certain lines accepted by all parties as never to be crossed & filing RTI against Sonia Gandhi by BJP/its allies comes under this.*btw i hope you know that legally allowed max limit for election spending is ~40lakhs for parliament election for constituencies having as many as 20lakh people meaning Rs.2 per person which is just equal to cost of a post card but still no candidate has ever been debarred from election because of this limit so obviously no proof against.so legally speaking every winning MP in india has won his seat by spending just 40lakhs which if any indian seriously believe is too naive because i have seen upper middle class people spending more on marriage ceremonies.*


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## 10 numberi (Dec 4, 2013)

India has no party today whom we can trust. Lets vote to someone new.


----------



## Faun (Dec 4, 2013)

> Don't you think exposing Sonia could be a crucial move for BJP?



Now you are not even trying.


----------



## ico (Dec 4, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> ...


The only thing which has been proven in this thread is that you are a dunce.

Apologies if that was offensive. No time for debating with you.

You deserve one more term of Congress. You deserved the torture of the invaders. You deserved the slavery of the British. World only gives you what you deserve. India got what it deserved and is still getting what it deserves.


----------



## rhitwick (Dec 4, 2013)

India is full of people like me. 

Martyrs like you would save us anyway.


----------



## amjath (Dec 4, 2013)

Just 66% of voters voted in Delhi elections. This proves that people hopes are vanishing and when the results shows up, we get to see how people are confused for voting which party. I will be ing seeing the result


----------



## mediator (Dec 4, 2013)

CNN-IBN and NDTV expose? Below is the Media Nexus with Politicans

This research puts the entire media bias in perspective .

"1. Hindustan Times – Shobhna Bhartia, owner and editor-in-chief of Hindustan Times is a Congress MP from Rajya Sabha.

2. Vinod Sharma, HT Political Affairs editor, is essentially a Congress spokesman on all TV panel discussions, because once his boss’ term gets over, he will be looking out for her RS seat next

3. Barkha Dutt and Vir Sanghvi, famous Congress stooges (and intermediaries for UPA allies) who were exposed in the Radiagate scandal, and are virtual Congress spokespersons in their capacities as electronic media personalities, are the ones who write opinion and op-ed columns most frequently (once every week) on the editorial pages of HT. In return, Barkha and Sanghvi are rewarded with Padma Shris and other monetary compensation by the Nehru dynasty or Congress party.

4. NDTV’s promoters are Prannoy Roy and Radhika Roy. Radhika’s sister Brinda Karat is a famous CPM leader (well known for anti-Baba Ramdev views) and Brinda’s husband Prakash Karat is the CPM Politburo General Secretary (well known for preferring Congress over BJP). And Prannoy Roy’s first cousin is the famous far-leftist pro-Maoist-Naxalite pro-Kashmiri-terrorists “intellectual” Arundhati Suzanna Roy.

5. NDTV’s Barkha Dutt’s reality has already been exposed in above section.

6. NDTV’s Sonia Singh is the wife of Uttar Pradesh Congress MP, Union minister and ex-princely state ruler, Mr. R. P. N. Singh, who is one of the fastest rising stars in the Congress party. If you remember, Sonia Singh is a very high-profile anchor on NDTV whose pro-Congress anti-BJP bias is legendary.

7. NDTV’s Nidhi Razdan (high-profile anchor of Left Right Centre) is the current girlfriend of J&K CM Omar Abdullah (after Omar recently divorced his wife of several years and mother of his two children, Payal). Nidhi Razdan is also famous for her legendary pro-Congress and anti-BJP bias.

8. CNN-IBN : Rajdeep Sardesai’s wife and co-promoter of CNN-IBN, Sagarika Ghose, who anchors Face the Nation and is famous journalist of CNN-IBN (well, her hubby is the owner-editor-in-chief after all) are famous Congress stooges.

9. Sagarika’s father Bhaskar Ghose was a famous sarkari babu and was made the chief of Prasar Bharati (Doordarshan) during Indira and Rajiv regimes. Bhaskar Ghose was well-known for personal loyalty to the Nehru dynasty, and now his daughter and son-in-law are rewarded with their own channel to do Congress propaganda.

10. In fact Sagarika’s extended family even consists of her aunts Ruma Pal (former Supreme Court justice and a close friend of the Nehru family) and Arundhati Ghose (former diplomat and Indian ambassador to various countries, predictably, under Congress regimes).

11. Let’s now come to another famous CNN-IBN media personality who also writes columns frequently for Hindustan Times — Karan Thapar. What you may not know is that the Nehru family itself is related, through blood and marriages, to the high-profile Thapar family. India’s Army chief during the 1962 debacle against China, Gen. P. N. Thapar, is brother-in-law of Nayantara Sehgal, the daughter of Vijaylakshmi Pandit and niece of Jawaharlal Nehru. Gen. Thapar’s son is pro-Congress journalist Karan Thapar. Gen. Thapar’s sister is Romila Thapar, a famous “top” typical JNU Nehruvian communist ideologue historian, who gets to write our textbooks and pollute them with pro-Congress Marxist propaganda.

12. The HIndu – The Worst – N. Ram, owner and editor-in-chief (till February 2012) of The Hindu, was once a vice president of the Students Federation of India. SFI is the students’ wing of the CPM.

13. P. Sainath of the The Hindu (acclaimed journalist well known for his, again, unsurprisingly, typical left-wing Nehruvian communism ideology), is the nephew of Congress politician V. Shankar Giri and the grandson of V. V. Giri, ex-President of India and famous Congress politician. Giri was especially known to be one of the first few staunch loyalists of Indira, and whom Indira fielded for President elections against her own party’s Neelam Sanjeeva Reddy, and who ultimately became the cause of the first high-profile split in the Indian National Congress into Congress (O) and Congress (I) — almost all the pre-independence regional stalwarts split away to join Congress (O) or form their own state parties, and the rest including Giri (all the loyalists of the Nehru family staying on with Indira).

14. Or even what about little known News24 Hindi media channel? Owned by ex-journalist and editor Rajiv Shukla, famous Congress MP in Rajya Sabha, Union minister, industrialist, BCCI vice president and IPL chairman.

15. Or even what about little known Lokmat (and IBN Lokmat) that is Marathi newspaper (and channel) in Maharashtra? Owner and editors-in-chief are the brothers Vijay Darda (Congress MP) and Rajendra Darda (Congress MLA in Maharashtra, and minister in state govt).

16. Or even the other bigger and smaller media houses, such as The Times of India and Indian Express, where the Nehru dynasty has managed to infiltrate its loyalists such as Dileep Padgaonkar and Shekhar Gupta, who are essentially paid stooges of the Congress party.

17 Vinod Mehta - Outlook editor has been well known to take anti BJP stand

The Congress (in fact just the one single family — the Nehru dynasty) has been in power for 56 of the last 65 years of independence. This matters a LOT. Personal relationships have been built, blackmail-worthy secrets have been spied, monumental wealth has been accumulated … all by the one single Nehru dynasty (and its family-business-cum-political-party aka Congress) that helps it maintain its tight irongrip over not just the entire Indian mainstream media, but also deep into our bureaucracy, our governmental institutions, and even our journalism and mass media colleges and grad schools.

We have probably not even scratched the surface of the network of family and personal relationships through which the Nehru dynasty has completely dominated and controlled the entire intellectual, historian and journalist landscape of India. And we haven’t even talked about the monumental wealth or the blackmailing secrets. All because the one single dynasty got to rule over India for 60 years uninterrupted. It matters a LOT.

The typical JNU Nehruvian communist left-libbers ideologues have really perpetrated some kind of stranglehold on India’s journalism, media and intellectual space.

Almost all pro-BJP (or even centre-right ideologues) journalists have been slowly thrown out of their jobs due to pressure from the Congress and the Nehru family.

Even the great venerable Ramnath Goenka, frustrated and broken by repeated I-T raids and ED investigations ultimately had to fire Arun Shourie twice from the Indian Express, which was once the best Indian newspaper in the 1970s and 80s. That was the team — Goenka the owner, Shourie the editor, and S. Gurumurthy the fearless journalist, that brought political heavyweights like Indira Gandhi down on her knees and even took on corporate honchos like Dhirubhai Ambani. (Ramnath Goenka inspired the Mithun Chakraborty character and S. Gurumurthy inspired the R. Madhavan character in the Ambani biopic “Guru”.)

But very few centre-right ideologues are left in India’s media space today, that too in minor publications like The Pioneer. Almost all the mainstream media houses have been thoroughly infiltrated and coerced into towing the Congress’ line, sometimes just through ideology and relationships, and not even money power.

The Congress party essentially owns and controls every single mainstream media house in India, including Hindustan Times, The Times of India, NDTV, CNN-IBN, The Hindu, Tehelka, Outlook, etc"


On the other side, I don't really understand how an article being removed from huffingtonpost is a big discussion issue. Last time bloggers started writing against the Italian waitress she threatened to pull them down, Burqa dutt did the same to a blogger who exposed her during mumbai attacks where she was announcing the location of the hostages. Which "credible media" till date has posted about Sonia Antonio Maino's childhood, youth, job and IT returns information like they did to Anna, Ramdev etc? She even turned down the RTI regarding her IT returns saying it was a violation of privacy.

The Big Secret: What


Oh well, Amul Baby has been ignored in all this jousting ---

Modi controlled Godhra in like 3 days -> Media (from last 10 years) Modi can't control riots
Amul Baby celebrating his birthday during Uttarakhand floods -> No media debates, forget the next 10 years

Modi erring in some historical accounts -> Media : Is Modi a good leader?
Amul Baby in CII Annual Meet -> Media : Good speech

Amul Baby
- India is like a Beehive
- I'm ashamed to be an Indian
- "Hindu Terrorism" is a bigger threat
- 70% of Punjabi youths are drug addicts (on a report which said 70% of drug addicts are youths)
- Maharashtra and Punjab are "BJP ruled states"
Rahul Gandhi believes Maharashtra & Karnataka are BJP Ruling States - YouTube


No Media reaction whatsoever. Imagine the same if the above was said by Modi! -> Congress and its paid media would have fired Hurricanes, Volcanoes, cyclones and made earth to spin differently....

BTW, what happened to plethora of scams, adharsh society -> the room where files were kept got burnt, coal gate scam -> the file was missing and report modified by Congress leader against the SC directs and whenever Robert Vadra scams comes up, the next thing we see is a crime by a Sadhu or possibly a "Godman". 


A few glimpses of the "Human rights activists", media portrayal and the communal Sanghis....

*s24.postimg.org/4ee1s9blx/1148986_226339394185929_1000598817_n.jpg
how to use print screen

*s23.postimg.org/gqxy2clt7/1095005_410756442367600_1767971652_n.jpg
image search

*s22.postimg.org/8n44a0cgx/45091_361046427358419_1722042530_n.jpg
screen grab

Amaresh Misra
*s27.postimg.org/r9aolhbwj/amaresh_misra.jpg
image upload with preview

*s9.postimg.org/xltdpzcu7/1013490_283369955135993_345084818_n.jpg
image hosting websites

*s2.postimg.org/7xc6tru3d/1006231_618814698136717_1220571514_n.png
image


*s24.postimg.org/3lx54gmbp/1044793_362133163909370_57783608_n.jpg
image hosting


*s7.postimg.org/tft2jr7mz/983577_10151438363176548_1612187536_n.jpg
snagit

Sanghis at work during Uttarakhand's floods (not shown by paid media)

*s30.postimg.org/jljn8t4td/1017219_10152436895581808_1460248056_n.jpg
free photo upload

*s29.postimg.org/jt4418hp3/5582_10151711260064273_1825138196_n.jpg
imagur


TOI lies -
The paid newspaper which created the set of lies about "15000" (later, Gujaratis saved by Modi) number without any shame! Now clarifying after being threatened with legal action by the BJP spokesperson.

E-source -> Article Window

Published on - July 14, 2013
Page Number - 9 (Sunday Times)
*s24.postimg.org/s4luzx3id/TOI_Apology_Modi_15000.jpg
photo sharing


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## Ronnie11 (Dec 5, 2013)

oh god..not this again..have read this on facebook too..the exact same thing..most of them are assumptions like this said reporter is a renowned stooge..nothing substantial..also love how all these reports are so one sided..its as if that only bjp is a saint here...What its to say one day that this guy is a renowned stooge of bjp or abc party...the whole thread seems like one to undermine others and show bjp as a saint.


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## snap (Dec 5, 2013)

one group screams they are the best and the other group screams the same but they both are deaf


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## rhitwick (Dec 5, 2013)

snap said:


> one group screams they are the best and the other group screams the same but they both are deaf



I like your views here...


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## mediator (Dec 5, 2013)

Ronnie said:
			
		

> Why do people especially modi fans feel only NDTV and CNN IBN are bought..Any convincing proof


The connections and Nexus of baboon party stooges, anti-nationals and media has been given to you. Its your wish of what you call as a "convincing proof" or "substantial". When a report from these stooges is against sadhus, "godman", nationalists, patriots and RSS, people seem to call it 'secular, truth etc " or whatever fancy terms appeal to their minds. Ironically, when the reports are out against these termites who are eating the Mother India, it becomes "one sided", sometimes "communal, right-winged, Sanghi etc". Much of what you call as "assumptions" has been linked to authentic sources in this thread alone.

Let me state BJP is not a saint, if that makes you happy, for human nature is bound to make errors and tread on its own lower nature even before bigger objectives let alone nationalist ideologies. But unlike most political parties it will not sell India to anti-nationals. This is where you need to connect it to RSS, research on it, not from baked media perspective, but by constantly being in touch with their ground operations. 

Former SC judge praises RSS: ‘Not anti-minority, end smear campaign’ - Indian Express

On the contrary, one needs to research upon the history of Congress, let alone the massive scams and riots caused by these baboons.


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## ico (Dec 5, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> India is full of people like me.
> 
> Martyrs like you would save us anyway.


India is a special case. Even martyrs can't save it.


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## Anorion (Dec 5, 2013)

ico said:


> You deserve one more term of Congress. You deserved the torture of the invaders. You deserved the slavery of the British. World only gives you what you deserve. India got what it deserved and is still getting what it deserves.



Remember hindu rate of growth? You revealed it to me. Not scared of that when giving the other a chance of messing up?
Between jokers and thieves, will vote for thieves...


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## Renny (Dec 5, 2013)

Anorion said:


> Remember *hindu rate of growth*? You revealed it to me. Not scared of that when giving the other a chance of messing up?
> Between jokers and thieves, will vote for thieves...



What a ridiculous expression - The slow growth at that period was due to Nehru's and successive Congress govts socialist policies or "License Raj". It has nothing to do with Hinduism.

This slow growth rate should be re-named after the founder of the License Raj - "Nehru rate of growth".


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## ico (Dec 5, 2013)

Anorion said:


> Remember hindu rate of growth? You revealed it to me. Not scared of that when giving the other a chance of messing up?
> Between jokers and thieves, will vote for thieves...


haha I said it because I wanted to rub a cigar in the eys of Yindoos whenever they talk of how great "their" civilization and beliefs are. 'Are' not 'was'. Talking about my hostel, a few days back one idiot who brands himself as brahmin just fought with a guy because he ate chicken using the idiot's spoon without asking and the idiot shouts, "mera dharm bhrasht kar diya, m******od bh****i ke".

You'll see Sanghi Rashtrawaadis targetting muslims everywhere on Twitter despite all what they believe in is crap. Few idiots from Rajasthan literally believe in exorcism, dians, pretaatma and the nonsense. "Salasar Balaji ke videos dekh YouTube pe, tu bhi vishwaas karne lagega." So that's today's Yindooism.

Ideally it is "Nehru rate of growth" like Renny said, but I'd still call it "Hindu rate of growth" as it tells you about the impotency of this country.

Thieves shall remain thieves. Jokers might actually do something good mazzaak mazzaak mein or might get serious. That's why I'm ready to give Modi a chance of messing up.


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## mediator (Dec 7, 2013)

Meanwhile, the Baboon Party which survives on minority votes (minority according to them and their bootlickers is 20% of population in second most populous country) is gathering steam for communal violence bill. Those still gathering their proteins by pleasing the baboon party leaders should think about what will happen if

a) No matter how they tag themselves theist/atheist/communist/marxist etc, if their name starts with traditional Indian name and they happen to be by some random chance are found involved in fight against a member of so called "minority community".
b) If the sisters of these non-minority happen to be harassed by minority.
c) If the relative of the non-minority woman happens to retaliate against the harassment.
d) The similar situation in areas where the so called "minorities" are actually in majority or larger percentage e.g Kashmir, Kerela, WB, several towns and rural areas.
e) By default who will be seen as a victim.

For those who haven't, they need to read the communal violence bill and those who are proud to tell their father that they still support and seek protein shakes from the baboon leaders should definitely read it!


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## ico (Dec 7, 2013)

@mediator

Can you post a link with the contents of that stupid bill?

Can't find it.

 @ 


> Last edited by mediator; Today at 07:08 PM. Reason: Typo: *wrote pleasuring instead of pleasing *


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## Hrishi (Dec 8, 2013)

Seems like this thread is going to get a lot of response today , Election results will be out today. 
Anyone guessing it ??
I say it would be BJP , with support of AAP ,(given that they are ready to give their support).
Majority of people around here have voted for BJP , and AAP.


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## mediator (Dec 8, 2013)

@Ico -

Here,  *nac.nic.in/pdf/pctvb.pdf

Analysis => Anti-Hindu Prevention of Communal and Targeted Violence Bill

The above is the initial draft by the Baboon party. It is now being ridiculed, changed and modified after severe crticism by the biggest opposition party. Lets see where it goes!


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## ico (Dec 8, 2013)

@mediator
Thanks for the link.

Great results today. BJP has done well. AAP has also done well.

Congress got pity votes in Chhattisgarh.

Piss off Shiela Dikshit.


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## mediator (Dec 8, 2013)

[h=5]haha....

I hope the BJP will remember to thank their star campaigner.

 He is the man who campaigned indefatigably before these elections,  addressed multiple rallies, travelled across four states and ensured  against all odds that the people vote for the BJP!

 Yes, the BJP owes its success to this man in no small measure!

 No. I am not talking about Narendra Modi !

 Meet Shri Rahul Gandhi, the star campaigner of the BJP! 


PS : No idea, why its coming in bolds  and yeah, enough of Sheila man....![/h]


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## ASHISH65 (Dec 8, 2013)




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## ico (Dec 8, 2013)

BJP leading everywhere. 

Needs more in Delhi though. A re-election can go in AAP's favour.


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## ico (Dec 8, 2013)

*twitter.com/gsurya/status/409490686589681665


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## ASHISH65 (Dec 8, 2013)

Looks like Delhi will come under President's rule.Chances of Re-election is more.


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## heidi2521 (Dec 8, 2013)

INC should officially be in "others" category now. 

I should clarify that I am just referring to Delhi.


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## Hrishi (Dec 8, 2013)

My guess about bjp/aap was right.


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## Ronnie11 (Dec 8, 2013)

bjp looks like they will be just a tad short of forming in delhi...looks like reelection after 6 months...Rest all were quite easy for bjp.


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## ico (Dec 8, 2013)

Where is our only resident CONgi?

Defeat in election is only a state of mind.


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## Anorion (Dec 8, 2013)

Way to go AAP...
News channels all gloating over how AAP stole the show, with congress at a loss
Still an angle they are not exploring may be how AAP stole those votes from BJP as well, so really every vote for AAP is a vote against not only Cong but also BJP


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## ico (Dec 8, 2013)

^ true. If there is a re-election, I think AAP will win.

Because I think in Delhi many people who wanted to vote for APP, but voted for BJP only because they were expecting BJP to win. "Jeetna hi hai BJP ko, toh chalo inko hi vote de dete hai."


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## Hrishi (Dec 8, 2013)

Anorion said:


> Way to go AAP...
> News channels all gloating over how AAP stole the show, with congress at a loss
> Still an angle they are not exploring may be how AAP stole those votes from BJP as well, so really every vote for AAP is a vote against not only Cong but also BJP



Yes. If it weren't for AAP , BJP would most likely have gained 40+.


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## heidi2521 (Dec 8, 2013)

This calls for... GIFs.

Album: AAP - Imgur


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## Hrishi (Dec 8, 2013)

ico said:


> ^ true. If there is a re-election, I think AAP will win.
> 
> Because I think in Delhi many people who wanted to vote for APP, but voted for BJP only because they were expecting BJP to win. "Jeetna hi hai BJP ko, toh chalo inko hi vote de dete hai."



I agree. Now people are saying that" Pehle pata hota to kejriwal ko hi vote dete."


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## amjath (Dec 8, 2013)

Local news here asked some expert about aap going national, he says its possible but lots of negotiation is needed but leaders are ready for this  negotiation

Is it possible in 4-5 months time? I don't think so


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## Faun (Dec 9, 2013)

dead5 said:


> This calls for... GIFs.
> 
> Album: AAP - Imgur



*i.imgur.com/qetJFaS.gif


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## rhitwick (Dec 9, 2013)

BJP won in 4 states. 

I'm still not convinced if BJP is the answer to Congress. 

I've seen this hysteria and mass mentality to work for Trinamool 2 years back in W.B. Trinamool came to power and we all thought our problems would end now. After two years we are not sure if overthrowing CPI(M/L) was a right decision.
Indeed we brought change but the 'change' has changed.

I hope such things do not happen with BJP (considering BJP wins the 'loksabha' election)


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## heidi2521 (Dec 9, 2013)

Faun said:


> *i.imgur.com/qetJFaS.gif



*i.imgur.com/Iy5P9Nc.gif


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## mediator (Dec 10, 2013)

Not really. I believe BJP supporters are more of nationalists and any person who thinks of upholding India and her history is usually called "communal" these days. But, yes there are elements of herd mentality and perceptions adding to BJP where people have voted because of rising popularity of Modi. The same herd mentality and perception adds to AAP as well where nobody wants to associate their name to Congress any more. Most of AAP supporters that I have witnessed were the ones who earlier vouched for Congress, talked about MMS academic brilliance and Rahul Gandhi as future of India. They certainly had high hopes with Amul Baby and maun-mohan. I can also sense a sub-conscious fear amongst this category which does not wants to associate its name with BJP as they might be termed communal and people might start asking them questions like "Hey, what about Godhra?". But, the constant paid media bashing of Modi for the last 10 years 24x7 has acted rather contrary to objectives of the paid media and Congress high command. Many years back I was constantly bashed for openly and staunchly supporting Modi and now its a fashion.  I hated Congress while people believed in Amul Baby. Now there's different tone and bashing Congress seems to be a sudden fashion.

I really believe that people who have voted for AAP are the ones who don't have much interest in Indian history, Indian politics, happenings around India let alone the ones in the remotest parts, but are simply going for AAP because of popularity and perceived "clean image". Many are the ones who wanted an alternative for Congress but did not want to associate with BJP and hence AAP. I was indeed one of those many guys who participated in Anna's anti-corruption movement held around August and December AFAIR where slogans like "Suar ka bacha kaisa ho Kapil Sibbal jaisa ho" were quite popular. But as someone said, AAP is a selfish by-product of a selfless movement. But here are a few questions to AAP supporters

1. Do you support terrorists ? If no , then how do you support a party whose co founder is fighting cases of terrorists in supreme court ?

2. Do you support a separate Kashmir ? If no , then how do you support a party whose core committee members are vociferously in favor of the same ?

3. Do you support Maoism / Naxalism ? If no, then how do you support a party whose national executive proudly carries top Naxal leaders with them ?

4. Do you think Indian Army is "communal" and human rights offender ? If no, then how do you support a party whose founders and multiple top leaders have these outlandish thoughts and are stretegically giving bad name to Army worldwide in multiple seminars ?

5. Do you support corruption ? If no , then how do you support a party which grossly fudged donation funds through fake receipts ? through back channel cash donations ?

6. Do you support Congress ? If no , then how do you support Kejriwal whose transfers as an IRS officer were held back on the recommendations of Sonia Gandhi and was kept in Delhi throughout his career ?

7. Do you support Mafias ? If no , then how do you support a party which gave tickets to Mafias and local "mawalis" ?


8. Do you support politics based on "freebies" ? If no , than how did you forget their promise of free water, half electricity rates ?

9. And lastly, do you support communal or vote bank politics ? If no then how do you support Kejriwal who begged in front of Moulana Taukeer Raza who was involved in gruesome riots of Bareily and who announced bounty for the killing of Taslima Nasreen ? 

Hazare distances from Prashant Bhushan on Kashmir remark - Rediff.com News
Prashant Bhushan beaten up for his Kashmir comments - Times Of India
Cleric who issued fatwa against Taslima Nasreen may campaign for Arvind Kejriwal | NDTV.com
Kejriwal falters at first opportunity
25 Questions to @ArvindKejriwal and his Fan Boys


And I guess, for the pioneers of an independent investigation, Shazia Ilmi's sting operation was an exception, a clean chit by her own party and the self-proclaimed judges. I believe an SIT committee should be set up against her just like it was done against Modi in an era when the govt. (COngress) was staunchly anti-Modi and anti-nationals vowed to hang him. But first let Kejriwal explain the FERA violations & respond to Home ministry's queries. 

For the Russel Peters fans, Another Rahulnama : *www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151746233036548&set=vb.252382316547&type=2&theater

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meanwhile,


			
				news said:
			
		

> Atheists face death in 13 muslim countries


*www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/atheists-face-death-in-13-muslim-countries/article1-1161005.aspx

In  13 countries around the world, all of them Muslim, people who openly  espouse atheism or reject the official state religion of Islam face  execution under the law, according to a detailed study issued on  Tuesday. And beyond the Islamic nations, even some of the West's apparently most                            democratic governments at best discriminate against citizens who have no  belief in a god and at worst can jail them for offences dubbed  blasphemy, it said.


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## ico (Dec 10, 2013)

^ sure, the BJP fanatics may be "nationalists" in their own way, but 99% of them are superstitious idiots. Like the idiots I mentioned in post #634. They're BJP fanatics as well.


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## rhitwick (Dec 10, 2013)

Election results for AAP sure was a shocker for each bigwigs.
Neither Congress nor BJP cared any about them prior poll. But, now they sure changed a lot of calculations.

AAP also acted as an eye-opener for all the other parties. A possible 'third-front' is in picture now. Mamatadi is in Delhi, I wonder what she's talking about.

Whatever it is, this AAP rise is going to effect in the default strategies of all parties. 

LS poll would be more interesting. May be not as one directional as I thought earlier.


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## mediator (Dec 10, 2013)

I dunno if "99.9%" is the figure, but yes superstition is an inherent part of the conditioned human nature no matter how he is tagged or likes to be tagged as, be it *theist, atheist, secularist, communist or even a person who calls himself a brahmin because his surname is trivedi,chaturvedi etc. Be it modern India or modern scientists or Vedic era, superstition, IMO, has always remained and will always remain and its not unique to India alone.


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## ico (Dec 10, 2013)

mediator said:


> I dunno if "99.9%" is the figure, but yes superstition is an inherent part of the conditioned human nature no matter how he is tagged or likes to be tagged as, be it *theist, atheist, secularist, communist or even a person who calls himself a brahmin because his surname is trivedi,chaturvedi etc. Be it modern India or modern scientists or Vedic era, superstition, IMO, has always remained and will always remain and its not unique to India alone.


Surely not unique to India. But the people of no country in the world have regressed as much as people living around these parts have.

If you look at the *overall* picture, it hurts to see that Abrahamic "west" (Islamic countries excluded) has made good amount of progress economically and sociologically. Economic progress can be credited to colonialism though.

The rise of 'pooja'. That's may be where we went wrong.


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## Ronnie11 (Dec 10, 2013)

> *I really believe that people who have voted for AAP are the ones who don't have much interest in Indian history, Indian politics, happenings around India let alone the ones in the remotest parts, but are simply going for AAP because of popularity and perceived "clean image"*.


Absolutely not. Pls do not insult the indian voters here.I do not see the relations at all. They were voted in favour as they promised to change the functionings in a government, have a transparent approach. People perceived that as change and voted them. Mind you things will be different in assembly polls but its similar to how regional parties around the country are coming to power. They reach every nook and corner of the districts which unfortunately the likes of cong and bjp to an extent have failed. 


> Many are the ones who wanted an alternative for Congress but did not want to associate with BJP and hence AAP. I was indeed one of those many guys who participated in Anna's anti-corruption movement held around August and December AFAIR where slogans like "Suar ka bacha kaisa ho Kapil Sibbal jaisa ho" were quite popular. But as someone said, AAP is a selfish by-product of a selfless movement.


True to an extent. Having spoken to few people there, most of the people i know who voted for AAP was because they were easily approachable and a welcome alternative to the bjp and cong. Nothing wrong in that. Politicians especially the cong challenged them that if you want to change the system, join politics. AAP called the bluff and did it.
I personally do not have any affiliations to AAP or any other group  but this is the perception i got from my Delhi friends.



> 1. Do you support terrorists ? If no , then how do you support a party whose co founder is fighting cases of terrorists in supreme court ?


This is the job of a criminal lawyer. They have to represent both sides of the case. If this guy, the court will appoint someone else.Ram jethmalani too did the same thing. But then that's his bread and butter. Does that make him anti nationalists too? Case cannot go ahead without two parties anyways. 



> 7. Do you support Mafias ? If no , then how do you support a party which gave tickets to Mafias and local "mawalis" ?



Erm this is where you could point out that all parties are the same. No idea about them hiring mafias but Cong and bjp have been selling tickets to these people for years.




> 8. Do you support politics based on "freebies" ? If no , than how did you forget their promise of free water, half electricity rates ?


Again similar to cong or bjp supporting free rice/dal or whatever freebies left.



> 9. And lastly, do you support communal or vote bank politics ? If no then how do you support Kejriwal who begged in front of Moulana Taukeer Raza who was involved in gruesome riots of Bareily and who announced bounty for the killing of Taslima Nasreen ?


One of the biggest blunders of AAP party. This was his gravest mistake.

Edited out 2-6 as i do not have much info about those but yeah could be looked into.
ps:- I have nothing to do with AAP. Dont even care if they win or lose but i thought the argument was too one sided. Hence responded. [/QUOTE]


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## mediator (Dec 10, 2013)

You are correct. There have been mafias and mawalis in all political parties. I don't really like Jethmalani but still respect him for his knowledge. Can you please tell what all criminal cases jethmalani practiced where the client was an anti-Indian? 

The below decision was a good one which has helped cleaning the Indian politics.

Convicted MPs, MLAs to lose seat right away: SC - Hindustan Times

Moreover, I believe it was Subramaniam Swamy's hardwork in fixing EVM tampering, the price of which has been paid by COngress. Lets see how well it works in other elections as well.

It would be nice if you can respond to 2-6 as well.

As Delhite myself I can tell you how the politics has changed back from anti-corruption movement to AAP. I myself supported Kejriwal and more importantly Anna. But a lot has changed since then.

But anyways reading the recent debate, anything can happen in the next re-election. 

AAP has cut Congress votes more than BJP. Please see the pic. 

*s28.postimg.org/odf685c6l/vote_cut.jpg
picture share


For the last 10 years, the paid media has been trying to demolish Modi in every way possible, hooks and crooks, lies and deception. The media never went against Congress. So many scams and none were discussed more than one week. Vadra case comes and the next thing we see on the media is some Baba or "godman" (invented by paid media) comitting crime and it gos on for weeks. More to this, every single political party and the newest in the league i.e AAP was in a race to defame Modi. Modi is communal, saffron, fascist etc. Even Kejriwal seemed to be ignorant of Supreme Court's SIT decision, a clean chit and yet these newbies and national sellers find themselves above the court. Modi agreed to every investigation possible. What about Congress and Kejriwal's fake funds and Shazia Ilmi's sting operation?

Now I see media slowly opening up and after the Congress defeat, I found myself witnessing the most uncommon situation where media was questioning Rahul Gandhu, SOnia Gandhi, putting the most uncomfortable questions which were never found in their history.

AAP, kejriwal have always got the surprising attention that no other anti-corruption crusader got. Nigamananda Saraswati died in his fast and many others met the same fate. But there was no media attention. Baba Ramdev and his "communal" followers were beaten at 1 am where 51 year old Rajbala died, but no such attacks were done on Kejriwal. Also, Ramdev's Anshan wasn't even shown by the media.

And so, if this media attention neutralises, then I believe it will work much more in favour of BJP where many works, contruction, development in Gujarat was never shown, the nationalist and relief work done by RSS was never shown, Modi saving people in Uttarakhand was distorted to "15000 only Gujaratis" (later apologised by TOI in a very small section), various exposes by Subramaniam swamy were never shown and hence people who cannot dig further than watching media are totally in dark about the vast amount of the patriotic work being done!

Also, there has been rumours going on (for more than 1 year) about AAP being Congress creation, where congress knew of the outcome, Sonia stopping Kejriwal's transfer, plans for AAP to cut BJP votes, merge with Congress like Chiranjeevi did in South and if nothing else comes up, then Congress to release the demanded version of Janlokpal Bill.

And hence it will be no suprise for me if Congress does release JanLokpal Bill before its own expiry date. But it seems Congress found the situation rather different to what it expected and now AAP has cut Congress votes more than the BJP!!

Communal violence bill with its precise timings is another strategy to tumble the NDA government if it is formed. By default and the initial drafted version (2011) the member of majority community will be seen as criminals in case of conflict and public servant will be accountable. We all know the history of Congress which has been a leader in creating riots and genocides. Map that to the future NDA and communal violence bill in its workings!

It seems to me like a pure Congress politics down to last drop of blood and breath. But I'm sure the results are and will be much beyond their expection and calculations.


The above is purely my opinion. People are free to disagree!


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## rhitwick (Dec 10, 2013)

Conspiracy Keanu!

*cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/43721948.jpg


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## Inceptionist (Dec 11, 2013)

Gay sex illegal says Supreme Court, activists to seek review | NDTV.com

Well fk... that makes no sense whatsoever. Why is SC flip-flopping on this matter?


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## ico (Dec 11, 2013)

Live Blog: India's Supreme Court Rules Gay Sex Illegal - India Real Time - WSJ



> *Subramanian Swamy*, a politician with the Bharatiya Janata Party, said that homosexuality was a malfunction of the human body and should be treated medically.
> 
> "I welcome Supreme Court judgment holding homosexuality as illegal,” Mr. Subramanian told The Wall Street Journal in an email statement after the Supreme Court judgment.
> 
> ...



Dunno what to say.  Such narrow mindedness and medieval thinking.


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## Anorion (Dec 11, 2013)

Haha subbu swamy 
Someone should tell him its no accident that men and women are not born in equal proportions

Thats hardly the worst thing he has said


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## Faun (Dec 11, 2013)

Do we have any records from historic India or Vedic India where this was not illegal ?


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## whitestar_999 (Dec 11, 2013)

can't compare modern legal system(or the pre-independence british system) to older times but as far as existence is concerned they were there:
Manas: Culture, Architecture of India, Khajuraho


> gays and lesbians have found in Khajuraho evidence of the enlightened attitudes of the pre-modern Indian culture


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## Faun (Dec 11, 2013)

Looks like past was most liberal.

Don't we have any gay/lesbian lords out of millions of gods ?


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## Anorion (Dec 11, 2013)

Ardhanareshwara is hermaphrodite
At least one of krishna's wives was a eunuch


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## Hrishi (Dec 11, 2013)

TBH , he looks a very good PM , from his style.^^ ( compared to dehati aaurat )...


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## mediator (Dec 12, 2013)

Abnormality IMO and in my understanding is anything that is not normal. A person born blind or with a handicap is indeed an abnormality. One can call it as a malfunction. Similarly, a person born differently in the normal definition of gender is indeed abnormal in that definition only. But that is much different from the societal acceptance. Indian literature AFAIK, is silent on such issues, but having said that the story of Shikhandi is famous, where born feminine she/he had the spirit of a man and was even given a place on the Chariot run by Krishna himself. AFAIK, Indian literature embraces all life forms and gives lessons where the adharma happened due to lack of such embrace. 



> Ardhanareshwara is hermaphrodite
> At least one of krishna's wives was a eunuch


RIP symbology. RIP common sense. One reads ardhanareshwara from one text and hermaphrodite from another and bingo, mind mapping yields the result => "Ardhanareshwara is hermaphrodite".

BTW, can you please quote source with proper texts and sanskrit where one of Krishna's wives was a eunuch?

I believe SC judgement is the real reason rather than election results behind why AMul Baby, Sibbal, Diggy Doggy, Karan Thappar and Manish Tiwari are crying together! Meanwhile, according to Salman Khurshid, who drooled 100 kg over the beauty of China yearning shamelessly to live in CHina, says "Sonia Maino Antonio sirf Amul Baby ki hi nahi, ham sab ki maa hai". I'm sure he/she got his Rs.5 perk for this!


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## ico (Dec 12, 2013)

"Ardhanareshwara is hermaphrodite" - now that made me chuckle very hard.



mediator said:


> Abnormality IMO and in my understanding that is anything is not normal. A person born blind or with a handicap is indeed an abnormality. One can call it as a malfunction. Similarly, a person born differently in the normal definition of gender is indeed abnormal in that definition only. But that is much different from the societal acceptance. Indian literature AFAIK, is silent on such issues, but having said that the story of Shikhandi is famous, where born feminine she/he had the spirit of a man and was even given a place on the Chariot run by Krishna himself.


Being homosexual is not "abnormal". Not even a malfunction. Just being different. Just attraction to the same gender.

"carnal intercourse against the order of nature" - this also criminalises few very normal and popular sexual practices even between straight couples! I guess we can find one very popular "Made in India" literature on this.


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## mediator (Dec 12, 2013)

Personally, my head doesn't work on such topics. I believe all life forms should be embraced no matter how they were born. Anal, Carnal etc whateva you said, my mind fuses/shutsdown thinking upon on them. There are few changes which happen not by birth as you said. The society should learn to accept the individual desires as long as they do not harm anyone else or the nation at large. But I do believe the homosexuals should not irritate people begging on the roads where subconsciously I can sense a kind of societal approval from many of these folks.

But here's an open opportunity for Amul Baby and his partners to openly support homosexuals and bingo, you get their votes. I believe our friend who takes pride in baboon party can convey the message to Amul Baby.


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## rhitwick (Dec 12, 2013)

LS poll campaign update #56

Contacted INC and specially sought out Rahul. Informed him that LGBT voters can be tapped now that SC has ruled against them. And, seemingly BJP is ignoring them as they are too confident on Modi. 
Suggested that we can do a sneak attack on our opponent by brainwashing the LGBT clan. 

Rahul was baffled by my idea and even Sonia agreed she could not think such a wonderful scheme. Promised me a Bharat Ratna as soon as they win the LS poll.

Ok folks, thats all for today.


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## heidi2521 (Dec 12, 2013)

Latest claims about Yoga being magic:

Homosexuality is a disease, yoga can cure it: Ramdev | Deccan Chronicle

Somebody needs to tell him that education can cure ignorance.


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## Faun (Dec 12, 2013)

What I dont understand is what do they fear if they legalize it ? It's not one's choice so not everyone will suddenly turn into gay.


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## whitestar_999 (Dec 12, 2013)

^^that's not how legal system works.main argument of the case was that section 377 of IPC violates fundamental rights articles 14,15 & 21 & supporters of LGBT failed to prove it sufficiently in supreme court as supreme court noted that in last 150 years only around 200 people were prosecuted under this section.


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## Skud (Dec 12, 2013)

^^Also in all the cases, there was absence of consent and the sexual act was forced on the victim. Surely, this act needs to be trashed which prevents "normal" people from enjoying their normal act. 



Faun said:


> What I dont understand is what do they fear if they legalize it ? It's not one's choice so not everyone will suddenly turn into gay.




And I don't understand what's the need of legalizing it? Not that LGBT people are waiting to engage in their sexual acts after the law will be amended, they are already doing whatever they want.


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## heidi2521 (Dec 12, 2013)

^So that they cannot be threatened with conviction/prosecuted because of it? Even if it hasn't been used in significant amounts there is still a risk of the law being used to convict LGBT people.


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## Skud (Dec 12, 2013)

dead5 said:


> ^So that they cannot be threatened with conviction/prosecuted because of it? Even if it hasn't been used in significant amounts there is still a risk of the law being used to convict LGBT people.




Risk is perceived, not quantified. As already told just 200 people were prosecuted in 150 years, and not a single instance of prosecution for consensual sex.

And going by this "being different" theory, even rapists can claim they are different and should not be prosecuted/punished for being different. Should we agree with that?


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## whitestar_999 (Dec 12, 2013)

^^the point is not no. of persons prosecuted or lack of consent.modified definition of rape includes all which is there in section 377+many extra definitions so there is no reason to use section 377 except for threatening LGBTs.it is the intent of this section which is under question not how many were prosecuted.it is a matter of principle that courts/govt should stay out of what happens between 2 consenting adults in privacy of their home.


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## Extreme Gamer (Dec 12, 2013)

dead5 said:


> ^So that they cannot be threatened with conviction/prosecuted because of it? Even if it hasn't been used in significant amounts there is still a risk of the law being used to convict LGBT people.



The supreme court only said that the High Court can't strike down the law because it doesn't violate the fundamental rights guaranteed in the constitution. They did say the parliament can change the law- indicating that they support LGBT rights.

It's like beating up a thief in public. As a normal citizen you're not allowed to do that. But cops can interrogate thieves and get them prosecuted.


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## Skud (Dec 12, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> ^^the point is not no. of persons prosecuted or lack of consent.modified definition of rape includes all which is there in section 377+many extra definitions so there is no reason to use section 377 except for threatening LGBTs.it is the intent of this section which is under question not how many were prosecuted.it is a matter of principle that courts/govt should stay out of what happens between 2 consenting adults in privacy of their home.




Section 377 doesn't say anything specific about LGBT, it applies to straight people also.



> "Whoever voluntarily has carnal intercourse against the order of nature with any man, woman or animal, shall be punished with 1[imprisonment for life], or with imprisonment of either description for term which may extend to ten years, and shall also be liable to fine".



Some samples:-

What does Section 377 of IPC criminalize? - The Times of India



> In a 1934 case, the Lahore high court in Khanu vs Emperor had held that "carnal intercourse with a bullock through nose is an unnatural offence punishable under Section 377 of Indian Penal Code".
> 
> The apex court also cited a case dealt by Gujarat High Court in 1968, where two men first unsuccessfully attempted to sodomize a boy and then forced him to perform oral sex and ejaculated in the boy's mouth.
> 
> In the 1992 judgment of the Orissa high court in the case 'Calvin Francis vs Orissa', the man was found to have inserted his genital into the mouth of a six-year-old girl. The HC had ruled that the "act complained of was punishable under Section 377".



Also it is not possible to define every sexual act even in the modified definition of rape, hence the term "against the order of nature" which is somewhat vague, is applied to cover everything:-



> A bench of Justices G S Singhvi and S J Mukhopadhaya scanned through judgments from 1925 till date and failed to find any uniform norm to classify what constituted the core of Section 377.
> 
> It noticed that in all these cases, there was absence of 'consent' and the sexual act was forced on the victim. "In our opinion, the acts which fall within the ambit of the section can only be determined with reference to the act itself and the circumstances in which it is executed," the bench said.
> 
> "All the aforementioned cases refer to non-consensual and markedly coercive situations and the keenness of the court in bringing justice to the victims who were either women or children cannot be discounted while analyzing the manner in which the section has been interpreted. We are apprehensive of whether the court would rule similarly in a case of proved consensual intercourse between adults. Hence, it is difficult to prepare a list of acts which would be covered by the section," it said.



One option is to add the "against the order of nature" or "abnormal" sort of word in the modified definition of rape but that will be actually beating the very purpose of amendment of Section 377.


Finally:-

Amend Section 377 immediately, MP minister charged with sodomy says - The Times of India

Now we can see who will be actually benefiting from the decriminalization of the act. But yeah, intercourse with a bullock through nose is completely natural/normal and markedly different too.


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## whitestar_999 (Dec 12, 2013)

technically supreme court is right & it should be parliament to amend the law but the issue with this view is that SC has given several judgements in recent years crossing the boundary between parliament & judiciary but this time they chose not to because of the controversial nature of issue.

*@skud,read the posts in full context not bits & pieces.no one is saying that complete removal of section 377 is must for legalizing LGBTs but just a modification which add something like "except for those acts between 2 consenting adults in privacy of their home" & 2 consenting adults mean humans.*


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## Skud (Dec 12, 2013)

Extreme Gamer said:


> The supreme court only said that the High Court can't strike down the law because it doesn't violate the fundamental rights guaranteed in the constitution. They did say the parliament can change the law- indicating that they support LGBT rights.
> 
> It's like beating up a thief in public. As a normal citizen you're not allowed to do that. But cops can interrogate thieves and get them prosecuted.




This. And people fail to understand that or are just plain retarded.



whitestar_999 said:


> technically supreme court is right & it should be parliament to amend the law but the issue with this view is that SC has given several judgements in recent years crossing the boundary between parliament & judiciary but this time they chose not to because of the controversial nature of issue.
> 
> @skud,read the posts in full context not bits & pieces.*no one is saying that complete removal of section 377 is must for legalizing LGBTs but just a modification* which add something like "except for those acts between 2 consenting adults in privacy of their home" & 2 consenting adults mean humans.




And apparently that is not what Delhi HC has ordered and that is not what activists have sought in this particular case. Their point was Section 377 criminalizes against LGBT violating their fundamental rights, which it does not. It applies to everybody including straight people, so why the fuss? Haven't we learn anything about this "consent" thing in all the rape cases over the years?


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## Extreme Gamer (Dec 12, 2013)

Skud said:


> This. And people fail to understand that or are just plain retarded.



Blame the media. Those politicians shooting off their mouths didn't read the SC verdict themselves.

Such ****s.

Except Subramaniam Swamy perhaps. His reasons for supporting the verdict do have more ulterior motives, but the legal argument is sound.

Sexual freedom to LGBTs should also mean sexual freedom to straight people. Section 377, the way it is worded now, has to go.


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## Skud (Dec 12, 2013)

^^More freedom for rapists.


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## Anorion (Dec 12, 2013)

Ok that came out wrong, ardhanareshwara is _a_ hermaphrodite



mediator said:


> BTW, can you please quote source with proper texts and sanskrit where one of Krishna's wives was a eunuch?


Donno why you need everything historic written in sanskrit. In Salar Jung museum, Hyderabad, there is a beautiful tapestry with Lord Krishna in a garden with the gopikas. Go look at the painting for a while, take your time observing the body language of each of the gopikas. Spotted one eunuch, maybe you can find more than one.

Bullock through the nose? Woah
I mean woah

These gay rights activists are better off fighting for general people rights that would help everyone, not just the LGBT community
One example is co-habitation rights, for non married couples. Or right to property, beget children through fertilisation techniques, adopt if they choose and say insurance policies. Sure there are more important issues for gay people than bedroom rodeo

Yoga can apparently cure cancer and aids as well, so basically deep breathing and excercises can sort out anything


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## Skud (Dec 12, 2013)

You make me laugh over that deep breathing and exercise part.


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## whitestar_999 (Dec 12, 2013)

@skud,why are you insisting on connection between rape & section 377?in SC's own words "less than 200 persons have been prosecuted for committing offence under Section 377".you make it seem like if section 377 is removed thousands of rapists will go scot-free.


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## Skud (Dec 12, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> @skud,why are you insisting on connection between rape & section 377?in SC's own words "less than 200 persons have been prosecuted for committing offence under Section 377".you make it seem like if section 377 is removed thousands of rapists will go scot-free.




Guess I have already explained. Please read my previous posts. Every law/act acts as a deterrent, and judging by the numbers this is a highly successful one. Why change for the sake of 10% people for their imaginary fear of harassment, potentially endangering the other 90%?


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## whitestar_999 (Dec 12, 2013)

amendment/removal of section 377 is not a question of "if" but "when".it may take 6 months,a year or more but in the end it will get amended.as for success if you think (200/150)=1.33 persons prosecuted per year is "success" in a country where official figures for rape are 20000+ per year then i guess there is no point in continuing this with you.

P.S.*it is not the law as much but the implementation of law that acts as deterrent.same laws didn't stopped manu sharma from shooting jessica lal in a public place in front of many witnesses & even get away with it until done in by widespread public outrage & neither will it stop future rapists considering poor conviction rates in rape crimes because of poor police investigation & overworked courts.*


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## Skud (Dec 12, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> amendment/removal of section 377 is not a question of "if" but "when".it may take 6 months,a year or more but in the end it will get amended.as for success if you think (200/150)=1.33 persons prosecuted per year is "success" in a country where official figures for rape are 20000+ per year then i guess there is no point in continuing this with you.
> 
> P.S.*it is not the law as much but the implementation of law that acts as deterrent.same laws didn't stopped manu sharma from shooting jessica lal in a public place in front of many witnesses & even get away with it until done in by widespread public outrage & neither will it stop future rapists considering poor conviction rates in rape crimes because of poor police investigation & overworked courts.*




Funny you are continuously contradicting yourself.

If the law is not going to stop discrimination against LGBT (by your own submission), what's the point of amending it.


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## whitestar_999 (Dec 13, 2013)

i can say the same thing:if the law is not going to help 90% of the people why not change it for the sake of rest 10%.anyway i can clearly see there is no point in continuing this with you.consider this the end of discussion from my side & whenever section 377 is amended by parliament/court in future do read about editorials praising the decision in papers like hindu & times of india.


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## Faun (Dec 13, 2013)

Skud said:


> And I don't understand what's the need of legalizing it? Not that LGBT people are waiting to engage in their sexual acts after the law will be amended, they are already doing whatever they want.



It's more to do with acceptance and a place in society. There is always a fear of persecution which needs to go. It's like they are doing something wrong, unlawful. 

Your argument is like it's ok to run past the red light unless someone catches you. 

You know everyone intelligent enough is doing this but don't get caught, otherwise you face a tribulation and be accused of moral turpitude by society.


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## Skud (Dec 13, 2013)

Faun said:


> It's more to do with acceptance and a place in society. There is always a fear of persecution which needs to go.* It's like they are doing something wrong, unlawful. *
> 
> Your argument is like it's ok to run past the red light unless someone catches you.
> 
> You know everyone intelligent enough is doing this but don't get caught, otherwise you face a tribulation and be accused of moral turpitude by society.




Don't think just changing the law will make them acceptable to the society, if they are already not accepting them. In any case, the act in question just prohibits certain actions, and is not at all directed to any particular person/community/group, so the question of human rights violation simply doesn't arise. Now straight couples performing those actions are least bothered from what I can see, although they are equally susceptible to prosecution under the act. Why only the LGBT are making a noise over it? Even after the law is amended, LGBT couples can be harassed under other existing laws, if the society so wants.

Running past red light is definitely wrong btw, whether someone catches you or not is immaterial.


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## Anorion (Dec 13, 2013)

Yep, Skud's arguments seem sensible
The act does not seem to be used to prosecute the LGBT community
If it goes away, under what section will the examples he gave tried under? The fallout of repealing would be decriminalising bestiality, without even the advantage of making the LGBT community more acceptable. The wording of the modified section would in any case be similar to the current section


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## ico (Dec 13, 2013)

Skud said:


> Guess I have already explained. Please read my previous posts. Every law/act acts as a deterrent, and judging by the numbers this is a highly successful one. Why change for the sake of 10% people for their imaginary fear of harassment, potentially endangering the other 90%?


Dunno but I think regardless of what 377 says, a rape remains a rape. Doesn't matter how the intercourse was performed. If there was no consent, it is a rape.

What I think 377 does is, it also criminalises certain sex practices, example, the popular one which doesn't lead to pregnancy, because it is against the order of nature.

Am I wrong?



Anorion said:


> Yep, Skud's arguments seem sensible
> The act does not seem to be used to prosecute the LGBT community
> If it goes away, under what section will the examples he gave tried under? The fallout of repealing would be decriminalising bestiality, without even the advantage of making the LGBT community more acceptable. The wording of the modified section would in any case be similar to the current section


We can come up with a new law against bestiality.


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## whitestar_999 (Dec 13, 2013)

@Anorion,just because a wrong law is not used does not make that law any more right.if you had read previous posts you would understood it.just an amendment of section 377 to make exception for LGBT/straight people is enough without removing the whole section.*also it is a matter of principle & not just some minor bedroom inconvenience.what consenting LGBT/straight adults do in the privacy of their bedroom is not the business of courts/govt unless it threatens safety of others.*


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## Skud (Dec 13, 2013)

Poor buffaloes.


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## Anorion (Dec 13, 2013)

got that, the amendment in 2009 clarified that what consenting adults do does not come under ambit of 377. the 2013 judgment said it was not up to the court to decide on the exception. this may be a step backward, or just delayed realization that what the court did was unconstitutional (amending, not deliberately making it criminal again).
still, have to think how much that particular section is responsible for lack of acceptance and prosecution of the LGBT community in the first place. from what Skud posted, it looks like it was an obscure, rarely used section, where it was used only for sexual perversions (the buffalo nostril thingy). 
not talking about police using it to blackmail members of the LGBT community, which is another crime, but actual judgments where consenting adults were convicted under that section.


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## whitestar_999 (Dec 13, 2013)

like i said it is about principle.sure LGBTs will not get acceptance of society but at least in terms of law they will get it.*as of now according to law LGBTs normal bedroom activities are not equal to straight people normal bedroom activities meaning LGBTs=/=straight people.*


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## Skud (Dec 13, 2013)

Anorion said:


> got that, the amendment in 2009 clarified that what consenting adults do does not come under ambit of 377. the 2013 judgment said it was not up to the court to decide on the exception. this may be a step backward, or just delayed realization that what the court did was unconstitutional (amending, not deliberately making it criminal again).
> still, have to think how much that particular section is responsible for lack of acceptance and prosecution of the LGBT community in the first place. from what Skud posted, it looks like it was an obscure, rarely used section, where it was used only for sexual perversions (the buffalo nostril thingy).
> not talking about police using it to blackmail members of the LGBT community, which is another crime, but actual judgments where consenting adults were convicted under that section.




Small correction, it was not an amendment, only the judgement/decision/clarification of the court, which doesn't constitute as an amendment of act, but merely as an interpretation of the act. The parliament was supposed to carry out the amendment which it didn't. Questions should be asked to Kapil Sibal & Co., why they were sleeping all these years. Also to the NGO and other related people. Its the media/politicians/defendants/supporters which are making it look like the law was changed and now brought back to its original form, which is hardly the case. HC interpreted in one way, SC the other.

Another example, SC's judgement some 2-3 years back, that pre-marital sex is not a statutory offence. Again, this is nothing but a judgement/interpretation of existing law, no act has been amended afaik which make it explicitly legal to have pre-marital sex. However, in case of a dispute, this judgement can be used as a defense. What SC's recent judgement has done, it has taken away one line of defense from LGBT against perceived offenses which the NGO has failed to prove even exists in the society.


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## rhitwick (Dec 14, 2013)

A surprising move from Kejriwal. 
I never took them seriously but this man seems to be meaning business.


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## Faun (Dec 14, 2013)

rhitwick said:


> A surprising move from Kejriwal.
> I never took them seriously but this man seems to be meaning business.



Any link to the video ?


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## bssunilreddy (Dec 14, 2013)

ardhanareshwara is _a_ hermaphrodite aka .5 fellas.


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## rhitwick (Dec 14, 2013)

Faun said:


> Any link to the video ?



Here's the video, check it out 
*www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ilaryu1iCU


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## Faun (Dec 16, 2013)

^^ Completely agree with AK. It's a dream come true if that really happens. I suppose the people of Delhi now know whom to vote for if the election is done again.


Found this comic cover..lol
*www.rajcomics.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/RCKA-0021-H.jpg


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## rhitwick (Dec 18, 2013)

After the 377 ruling of SC every possible political party expressed their stand on it. I found BJP rather quite on this issue. Had to do a google search to know what they actually mean.

And this is what they had to say about 377,



> BJP has decided to oppose any move to nullify Supreme Court's order re-criminalizing consensual sex among consenting adults, dealing a huge setback to any move to scrap or dilute Section 377 of the Indian Penal Code (IPC).
> 
> "Gay sex is not natural and we cannot support something which is unnatural," said BJP chief Rajnath Singh putting an end to his party's equivocation over the issue which had held out the hope that the principal opposition may not hinder government's plan to organize relief for the LGBT community in the aftermath of SC's controversial order last Wednesday.


Homosexuality not natural, won't back it: BJP chief - Times Of India

Also,
BJP backs Section 377, says western culture cannot be brought to India
BJP will not support 'unnatural' homosexuality: Rajnath Singh | Firstpost


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## Hrishi (Dec 18, 2013)

And now majority of FB pages and posts are filled with this Indian Official who got molested/ill-treated by US officials because she was caught doing something wrong with her maid.
Khursid said - He'll not come back to the House , if he fails to return her dignity.

"Why don't they say the same for Our Beloved soldiers who get beheaded ruthlessly protecting the dignity of our nation and our precious life. ? Not a word for them , "Kadi ninda karte rah jaoge buddho..."
And now a Sudden step to challenge United States , hmmm... seems fishy to me. They can voice against US but not Pakistan.


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## Skud (Dec 18, 2013)

Its called Votebank Politics, dear.


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## Skyh3ck (Dec 19, 2013)

That lady was caught doing wrong as per us laws. And they take it seriously. They respect even sweeper also. Hence its not new for them to enforce law no matter who u are. I understand that diplomats have some privileges. But why we forget that many rich Indians still treat house maid and servant as slave.  And no I read in newspaper that our government has taken all extra privileges given to us diplomats in India. I mean why u gave extra privileges. Did they ask for it. And as homosexuality is now a crime in India. Does our Indian governments has guts to arrest any homosexual us diplomats ???


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## Hrishi (Dec 19, 2013)

Skyh3ck said:


> That lady was caught doing wrong as per us laws. And they take it seriously. They respect even sweeper also. Hence its not new for them to enforce law no matter who u are. I understand that diplomats have some privileges. But why we forget that many rich Indians still treat house maid and servant as slave.  And no I read in newspaper that our government has taken all extra privileges given to us diplomats in India. I mean why u gave extra privileges. Did they ask for it. And as homosexuality is now a crime in India. Does our Indian governments has guts to arrest any homosexual us diplomats ???



How will they find them ? Lol .....

Btw , I am pretty sure this is just showoff . Indian government doesn't have the guts to arrest them. Indian economy is feeding on usa.    
The lady somehow has links to the congrezz .


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## CommanderShawnzer (Dec 19, 2013)

Skyh3ck said:


> That lady was caught doing wrong as per us laws. And they take it seriously. They respect even sweeper also. Hence its not new for them to enforce law no matter who u are. I understand that diplomats have some privileges. But why we forget that many rich Indians still treat house maid and servant as slave.  And no I read in newspaper that our government has taken all extra privileges given to us diplomats in India. I mean why u gave extra privileges. Did they ask for it. And as homosexuality is now a crime in India. Does our Indian governments has guts to arrest any homosexual us diplomats ???



Its not that she was arrested,its because she was subjected to this


> I must admit that I broke down many times as the indignities of repeated handcuffing, s*tripping and cavity searches, swabbing, in a hold-up with common criminals and drug addicts* were all being imposed upon me despite my incessant assertions of immunity," the email said, according to a source privy to the information


Now,is she one of those "Drug Carriers" or some "terrorist" to be subjected to all this


> A full body cavity search is a visual search or manual internal inspection of body cavities for prohibited material such as illegal drugs, money, jewellery, or weapons. This search is different from a strip search as it involves poking fingers or inserting the entire hand into suspect's rectums.
> 
> There are two types of BCS — visual and manual.
> 
> ...


And SHE IS A F**KING DIPLOMAT.SHE HAS IMMUNITY.EVERY DIPLOMAT HAS IMMUNITY.Some guy  used his immunity after he was arrested on a wife-beating charge in Britain
SOURCE1
SOURCE2


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## whitestar_999 (Dec 19, 2013)

those who are saying what's the big fuss about this IFS lady incident probably don't know anything about international politics & standing.no matter what the circumstances were it is the manner in which she was arrested & processed which is normally used for hard core criminals & gang members that needs strong protest because if India can't even do this then it should as well ask its diplomats & consulate officials to wear US flag pins for a reminder that who is the real boss.btw i would love to see such treatment meted out to a chinese diplomat but i know that won't happen because China is not India which can be taken so lightly.


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## Anorion (Dec 19, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> Its not that she was arrested,its because she was subjected to this
> 
> Now,is she one of those "Drug Carriers" or some "terrorist" to be subjected to all this
> 
> ...



consular immunity, not diplomatic immunity applies in this case, the key difference being arrests and detentions are allowed


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## ico (Dec 19, 2013)

The right way to look at this:

1) Indians are idiots. Always looking for cheap labour everywhere. She probably did do something wrong. Every Indian household has this habit of employing domestic help for cheap and getting all work done from them. She carried this over to USA. May be I can be wrong on this one.

2) She does have some sort of immunity. The manner in which she was treated as unacceptable. So, USA is definitely wrong.

3) Good reaction by India. Showed some balls. Has put USA in its rightful place.

4) The people at fault are (may be) the lady and definitely the US of A.

5) We also very well know how much embassies of all "developed" countries pay to their low-level staff here in India.


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## whitestar_999 (Dec 19, 2013)

^^regarding point no. 1,you indeed are a bit wrong though not entirely.the reason for getting domestic help is that if indian govt start hiring US citizens then spending bill will increase significantly & apparently indian govt is not so rich considering that ministers visits only for a few days but here we are talking about years(of course even a 2% decrease in corruption in FCI should be more than enough to cover this).  as for wages it is more of a technicality as though indian housemaids get smaller cash in hand but they also get benefits like free accommodation,no worries about power,water bill etc which is quite a benefit in expensive major US cities like New York.


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## CommanderShawnzer (Dec 19, 2013)

Said Maid/Domestic Help is nowhere to be seen


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## whitestar_999 (Dec 19, 2013)

that's because she made a deal with US law agencies to help in testifying against her employer.it is something similar to witness protection where in exchange for testifying one is given certain benefits like in this case visa/possible US citizenship to alleged victim of human trafficking & their immediate family members which in this case is maid & her husband & children.quite pathetic in my opinion & then people wonder how US failed to see threat of extremists it created to fight Russians in Afghanistan.it's because state department of US is full of incompetent people.


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## ico (Dec 19, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> ^^regarding point no. 1,you indeed are a bit wrong though not entirely.the reason for getting domestic help is that if indian govt start hiring US citizens then spending bill will increase significantly & apparently indian govt is not so rich considering that ministers visits only for a few days but here we are talking about years(of course even a 2% decrease in corruption in FCI should be more than enough to cover this).  as for wages it is more of a technicality as though indian housemaids get smaller cash in hand but they also get benefits like free accommodation,no worries about power,water bill etc which is quite a benefit in expensive major US cities like New York.


What I meant was, the normal people in USA don't really hire domestic help. They can't afford, it is expensive just like you said. So they do everything themselves no matter what the problem. Even handle small kids. Baby sitters? They cost a bomb even for people living there.

Somehow an Indian goes there, still feels the need of having a maid! Old habits die hard.


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## whitestar_999 (Dec 19, 2013)

well according to reasons given apparently diplomats/consulate officials need domestic help so as to better concentrate on their work but then if they were doing such a terrific job then India's foreign policy(& they) wouldn't be in such a mess today.frankly speaking most of the people in IFS are not suited for the job.i am amazed that despite knowing well about US high-handedness in dealing with persons ranging from popular actors like Shahrukh Khan to former president APJ Kalam people in Indian consulate didn't even think twice before bringing domestic help with them when one maid in past sued & even won a million dollar claim against a former Indian diplomat.it is like they said:"even god help those who help themselves".let's hope this incident will put an end to this practice & frankly speaking if a person can't even manage his home without domestic help then i seriously doubt his capability to handle relations between nations.


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## ico (Dec 19, 2013)

^^ well said.


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## Hrishi (Dec 19, 2013)

My question was about govt. Suddenly showing some balls , that too against States , but can't do shite about the problems pakistan creates ???


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## CommanderShawnzer (Dec 19, 2013)

Rishi. said:


> My question was about govt. Suddenly showing some balls , that too against States , but can't do shite about the problems pakistan creates ???



Election-Time makes Congress grow balls and BJP "secular"


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## Skyh3ck (Dec 20, 2013)

Look at the father of the lady blames at domestic help. What I found after reading all newspapers and reports in media that the Lady has definitely done wrong by getting visa on false information for domestic help. Feel very bad that our country man don't behave even when they go abroad. 

And anyone know about recent incident in UK where an Indian couple kept few ladies as slaves for many years.. Are we Indians are such evil towards other people life and dignity. Thou I feel bad for the diplomat. But she leaned a good lesson now. Come on face the reality you can not behave abroad  the way you behave in India.


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## CommanderShawnzer (Dec 20, 2013)

Skyh3ck said:


> Look at the father of the lady blames at domestic help. What I found after reading all newspapers and reports in media that the Lady has definitely done wrong by getting visa on false information for domestic help. Feel very bad that our country man don't behave even when they go abroad.
> 
> And anyone know about recent incident in UK where an *Indian couple kept few ladies as slaves for many years.. *Are we Indians are such evil towards other people life and dignity. Thou I feel bad for the diplomat. But she leaned a good lesson now. Come on face the reality you can not behave abroad  the way you behave in India.



Do you know that couple was Maoist?

I also read that said maid was paid Equivalent of Rs.25k P.M which is close to what a fresher gets in a IT company(i'm right about this right?correct me if i am wrong)
Another thing to note that naukars there are paid per hour,and here they are paid per month.


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## Hrishi (Dec 20, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> Do you know that couple was Maoist?
> 
> I also read that said maid was paid Equivalent of Rs.25k P.M which is close to what a fresher gets in a IT company(i'm right about this right?correct me if i am wrong)
> Another thing to note that naukars there are paid per hour,and here they are paid per month.



Not all freshers get that package. Not all.


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## Kl@w-24 (Dec 20, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> I also read that said maid was paid Equivalent of Rs.25k P.M which is close to what a fresher gets in a IT company(i'm right about this right?correct me if i am wrong)
> Another thing to note that naukars there are paid per hour,and here they are paid per month.



What she did was, she took an Indian worker to the US (using forged(?) Visa papers) and paid her wages below US wage regulations. Doesn't matter if it equates to 25K or 30K INR in India. Going by that logic you would buy a bottle of water for 200 INR there (and cry yourself to sleep every night).
Any IT guy sent onsite receives payment which is at par with what a person having similar position, experience & qualifications would receive in the US. Then it doesn't matter if it equates to 2.5L INR, despite the Indian salary being only 40K. This is the biggest reason why everyone's dying to go onsite.


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## whitestar_999 (Dec 20, 2013)

minimum wage is to prevent exploitation of illegal immigrants not persons living in with consulate officials.maid gets less than minimum wage but then she also doesn't have to pay apartment rent(new york is the costliest US city),electricity bill,water bill & food expenses.this is like saying giving a maid a proper room in mumbai(proper not those dingy slum) with free food,power,water & good locality with a salary of Rs.10000/month is bad.


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## Hrishi (Dec 20, 2013)

Kl@w-24 said:


> What she did was, she took an Indian worker to the US (using forged(?) Visa papers) and paid her wages below US wage regulations. Doesn't matter if it equates to 25K or 30K INR in India. Going by that logic you would buy a bottle of water for 200 INR there (and cry yourself to sleep every night).
> Any IT guy sent onsite receives payment which is at par with what a person having similar position, experience & qualifications would receive in the US. Then it doesn't matter if it equates to 2.5L INR, despite the Indian salary being only 40K. This is the biggest reason why everyone's dying to go onsite.



But the cost of living is high too in USA. Way higher. Not to mention the extremely expensive healthcare.


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## Kl@w-24 (Dec 21, 2013)

Rishi. said:


> But the cost of living is high too in USA. Way higher. Not to mention the extremely expensive healthcare.



Exactly. Which is why they have the minimum wage regulation. Go below that and you're done.



whitestar_999 said:


> minimum wage is to prevent exploitation of illegal immigrants not persons living in with consulate officials.maid gets less than minimum wage but then she also doesn't have to pay apartment rent(new york is the costliest US city),electricity bill,water bill & food expenses.this is like saying giving a maid a proper room in mumbai(proper not those dingy slum) with free food,power,water & good locality with a salary of Rs.10000/month is bad.



But would you pay the maid 10K after allowing her all those amenities?


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## dashing.sujay (Dec 21, 2013)

The difference between salaries paid to maids in India itself is highly varying. In metros it may range to 5 figure monthly salary, but in tier-3 cities, you may get them for as cheap as 3 figure salary for a month !

Indians, as usual like to save money everywhere.


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## Hrishi (Dec 21, 2013)

dashing.sujay said:


> The difference between salaries paid to maids in India itself is highly varying. In metros it may range to 5 figure monthly salary, but in tier-3 cities, you may get them for as cheap as 3 figure salary for a month !
> 
> *Indians, as usual like to save money everywhere*.


Don't wanna offend some of them around here , but most of Indians have a miser in them. Not saying it's bad or good , but its the truth.


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## dashing.sujay (Dec 22, 2013)

Rishi. said:


> Don't wanna offend some of them around here , but most of Indians have a miser in them. Not saying it's bad or good , but its the truth.



That trend is gradually fading out.

And why would one be offended ? It's all about priorities and satisfaction.


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## CommanderShawnzer (Dec 22, 2013)

I read this in TOI


> Khobragade's fathes was an IAS officer with many political connections


Now i get what this crapstorm is about


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## whitestar_999 (Dec 22, 2013)

even if he wasn't this would have become an issue just with a little more delay.the reason being humiliated diplomat is IFS & it is IFS which handles & oversee all foreign relations matters in govt. offices.one of the reasons Durga Shakti issue gained this much attention was because IAS association united to support her.same happened in this case *after she emailed her IFS colleagues about strip search & cavity search which really blew the issue.*remember in India unions/associations are a powerful force.btw her father is a retired IAS officer.


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## ico (Dec 22, 2013)

I doubt anyone read this: MEA 'bent' rules to favour Devyani Khobragade - The Economic Times

Some IFS office named Mahaveer Singhvi, same batch as Devyani, he was alotted a different language than the one he opted for. He had opted for German and had scored a higher rank than Devyani. But Devyani was given German.

*The source of whatever I will write below is this:* *Mahaveer C. Singhvi vs Union Of India And Ors on 29 August, 2008*



> The availability of slots was indicated as follows; French -- 2 slots; German -- 1 slot; Russian -- 2 slots; Chinese -- 1 slot; Spanish -- 1 slot; and Arabic, -- 2 slots. The petitioner is stated to have indicated his language preference as, French, German, Arabic, and Spanish, in that order. According to the petitioner, since he was placed at serial number 5 in order of seniority in the batch consisting of 9 officers, the four officers senior to him were to be accommodated first. They were allotted French, Russian, Chinese and French respectively. Consequently, the two slots for French already stood exhausted. *Since the slot for German was still vacant and his second preference happened to be German, the petitioner ought to have been allotted that language.*



This guy was given Spanish and not his second preference German. That went to Devyani.

Then he protested against it. To know how it went to Devyani, read the following:



> The petitioner states that his efforts to have this rectified ultimately resulted *in a serious animosity with the second respondent, Mr. P.L. Goyal, who happened to be the Additional Secretary* at that time. This happened because, after a fruitless meeting with The Joint Secretary, the petitioner met Mr. Goyal who informed him that for his batch of officers,* the criteria for allocation had been changed. He said that this time, the criteria adopted was to grant the preferred language to officers by placing them in a new order, which consisted of choosing one from the top of the list, and the next from the very bottom, of the list of nine officers. By this method, the order of precedence for the allocation of foreign language to the officers in the petitioner's batch became 1, 9, 2, 8, 3, 7, 4, 6 and lastly, 5.* Since the petitioner was placed at S.No.5, he was therefore, relegated to the very last place in order of precedence. When the petitioner protested against this utterly irrational method, *he was warned by Mr. P.L. Goyal against raising any protest in this matter.*



So this guy Mahaveer Singhvi was warned. Somehow this "bending of rules" leaked out to the media and came in newspaper. Mr. P.L. Goyal, the Additional Secretary or may be others developed an animosity for him?

Before all this, may be Mahaveer Singhvi has dated some girl for some time. The girl's family proposed a marriage. Mahaveer's family rejected. Then the girl's family started to plot against Mahaveer like a typical Hindi serial. yeah, true and I don't want to quote that. Aaaaand, somehow they forged an alliance with Mahaveer's "not-so-well wishers" aka enemies and Mahaveer Singhvi was wrongly dismissed.

Later he won the case after 6 years and has been reinstated with proper compensation.

Read the link I gave completely.

*So, somehow Devyani's mischief for getting German almost costed this guy's career.

Doodh ki dhuli nahi hai ye.*


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## CommanderShawnzer (Dec 22, 2013)

Domino's outlet attacked in India as U.S. diplomatic dispute simmers

Sahi kiya saalo ko 


Spoiler



For expensive pizzas with sparingly used toppings,and that "you need to order a pizza for home delivery" 



And they arrested,strip/cavity searched her just on the complaint of some maid.I*s there any evidence proving said maids allegations?* No.*Even if there is,Why aren't they sharing it with us *

Devyani Khobragade case: Maid tried to blackmail diplomat, says government


> NEW DELHI: A government official on Thursday said that diplomat Devyani Khobragade, who was arrested in New York on visa fraud charges, had accused her maid of blackmail over the summer.
> 
> *An official in External Affairs Ministry said that Khobragade wrote to government authorities over the summer that the maid had disappeared and was trying to blackmail her. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to speak publicly about this case.*



Diplomat arrest case: Maid’s letter reveals Devyani’s innocence


> I*ndian diplomat Devyani’s sister has released a letter in which maid Sangeeta Richards writes that the diplomat’s family was very nice to her. It also says that the diplomat treated Sangeeta very well and even gave her an iPad.*
> 
> Devyani case third instance of maids accusing Indian diplomats
> 
> ...





Devyani Khobragade case: It's all a maid-in-US conspiracy, India says


> "*She is innocent ... It is not the illegality that she (Khobragade) is accused of, but the illegality she refused to oblige," Khurshid said. Going into details, he said that Khobragade "received a phone call from a lawyer who refused to identify himself and offered to settle the matter that would result in grant of permanent citizenship to her (the maid) and a huge compensation. It became clear that this was a conspiracy and some people were trapping her." He added the humiliation meted out to Khobragade had "not happened out of the blue" and there is a "history" behind it.*
> 
> *While not confirmed, it is believed the Richards family has been sent to US on a visa category that is reserved for victims of human trafficking, provided they assist the US authorities in the case. In other words, the ground was carefully created to arrest Khobragade. And the US didn't believe its strategic partner but an absconding maid — something that's being regarded here as an act of hostility*.





> Between June, when Richards disappeared from Khobragade's house on the pretext of shopping, to November, when an arrest warrant was issued for her by a Delhi sessions court, the Indian government made repeated complaints and representations to the US authorities (see timeline). Each time the Indians were given no response or cooperation from the US side. On September 21, the US state department in a letter said there were "allegations" against Khobragade, for which they wanted her to come to the state department to clarify.
> *
> The MEA responded with a strongly worded letter detailing the charges against the maid, her disappearance and the developments. The US side clammed up. The Indian government also found it very strange that Richards' husband, Philip, initially filed a missing persons report about his wife but later withdrew it.
> *
> Parliament on Wednesday erupted in support of Khobragade with members, cutting across party lines, supporting the government for its retaliatory actions. The government has, however, maintained that the steps taken against the US are "reciprocal", not "retaliatory" in nature.


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## ico (Dec 22, 2013)

^ I don't eat pizzas but whenever I eat Domino's, I always tend to leave out the bread crust on the edge. Dunno why.


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## CommanderShawnzer (Dec 22, 2013)

Pretty sure the maid is doing this for US citizenship for her and her family and a hefty "compensation" or "out of court settlement"
And obviously that Preet Bhadwa guy was doing this for a promotion and "The law is equal to everyone"
nice informative page on IVG(there is a "debate" going on about this there too) *www.indianvideogamer.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8894&page=192


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## whitestar_999 (Dec 22, 2013)

@ico,it is in today's timesofindia p13 & even before i read it i was pretty much certain about dubious credentials/background of her but then you can expect this from 90% of children of IAS/senior bureaucrats.it was never about her but her treatment.here is a good example of this:
US Spy Case in India: Latest News on US Spy Case in India at Times of India  this article was published in timesofindia 19th dec but now link is dead,see how sensitive & controversial this case was).i am quoting from that day newspaper in front of me.


> Rosanna Minchew,then third secretary of in the US embassy,allegedly sourced vital information on RAW,IB & Military Intelligence from the National Security Council,chaired by the PM.
> Infact,when the police chargesheet was filed,India ensured safe passage to Minchew,who was sent back to the US.


now compare this case involving officials & security at highest level compared to allegations by a domestic worker & the difference in treatment by India & USA.


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## CommanderShawnzer (Dec 22, 2013)

This is a conspiracy by the maid
If it wasn't for pre-election time,the diplomat lady would've languished for like 15 years without anyone knowing sh!t.while maid would have got 1 mil  in compensation and US citizenship


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## ico (Dec 22, 2013)

whitestar_999 said:


> @ico,it is in today's timesofindia p13 & even before i read it i was pretty much certain about dubious credentials/background of her but then you can expect this from 90% of children of IAS/senior bureaucrats.it was never about her but her treatment.here is a good example of this:
> US Spy Case in India: Latest News on US Spy Case in India at Times of India  this article was published in timesofindia 19th dec but now link is dead,see how sensitive & controversial this case was).i am quoting from that day newspaper in front of me.
> 
> now compare this case involving officials & security at highest level compared to allegations by a domestic worker & the difference in treatment by India & USA.


yup, treatment part is what the whole issue is about.


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## Hrishi (Dec 22, 2013)

Isme RSS ka hath hain ??


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## Faun (Dec 22, 2013)

Could there be another aspect to the arm twisting done by US ? Looks like too many layers to see.


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## bssunilreddy (Dec 22, 2013)

If that diplomat entered into IFS using dubious means which almost cost the life of her classmate then is she truly to be pitied upon and even she has forged VISA papers for her maid so that low wages can be paid. I pity the maid in this regard as she is misled in getting good wages rather she got what was not promised.
Now that diplomat will think twice before doing any mischief as GOD himself punished her now.


MODI will become the next PM and I hope he puts an end to all the stuff like religious conversions in India. I am a true HINDU and I believe in him.


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## CommanderShawnzer (Dec 22, 2013)

bavusani said:


> If that diplomat entered into IFS using dubious means which almost cost the life of her classmate then is she truly to be pitied upon and even she has forged VISA papers for her maid so that low wages can be paid. I pity the maid in this regard as she is misled in getting good wages rather she got what was not promised.
> Now that diplomat will think twice before doing any mischief as GOD himself punished her now.
> 
> 
> MODI will become the next PM and I hope he *puts an end to all the stuff like religious conversions* in India. I am a true HINDU and I believe in him.



Thats a human rights AND a constitutional rights violation


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## Faun (Dec 22, 2013)

wow...


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## CommanderShawnzer (Dec 22, 2013)

Faun said:


> wow...




...


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## Faun (Dec 23, 2013)

^^to the comment above yours


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## Renny (Dec 25, 2013)

*Meanwhile AAP accepts congress support to form the government. Anyone remember what Mr. Kejriwal said about taking support?*

*fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/q71/s720x720/1501831_344925865647068_860615962_n.jpg


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## rhitwick (Dec 25, 2013)

^So your solution to Delhi's logjam was?


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## Tarun Singh (Dec 25, 2013)

Renny said:


> *Meanwhile AAP accepts congress support to form the government. Anyone remember what Mr. Kejriwal said about taking support?*
> 
> *fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/q71/s720x720/1501831_344925865647068_860615962_n.jpg


See the conditions they had put before taking support.Congress had full rights to put down those conditions but they accepted and now saying support was conditional.


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## Skyh3ck (Dec 26, 2013)

actually dont know exactly what is going on in this country... can not trust anyone now days


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## mediator (Dec 27, 2013)

Ok, glad that gay discussion ended.....!

Refer #664 -> *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/fight-clu...gion-everything-under-sun-23.html#post2042946

Seems like it just happened the way we saw! AAP+Congress alliance and Lokpal passed before Congress's expiry date. Anyways, here's a nice open letter to Kejriwal -> Open letter to Arvind Kejriwal - The Times of India

I hope he does not start "supporting" Amul Baby now or form some sort of friendship.

Kejriwal -> Batla House encounter fake, Ishrat Jahan was not a terrorist, don't hang Afzal Guru, Modi is communal (even after SC's SIT gave him clea chit and now another clean chit in the case of Gulberg)

Bhushan -> Kashmir should be separated, Indian army doing the killings in Kashmir, support for Naxal etc

I do hope these guys fix their loose nuts and develop some patriotic pro-India, National thoughts, realistic sense of administration then sayin "If bills are high, don't pay bills" or "tariff will be down by 50% else Tatas and Ambanis can leave the country" and more importantly this guy should stop acting like a kid, take up his security cover atleast and stop pretending to be great. 

Anyways, wish them best of luck!


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## CommanderShawnzer (Dec 27, 2013)

mediator said:


> ok, glad that gay discussion ended.....!
> 
> Refer #664 -> *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/fight-clu...gion-everything-under-sun-23.html#post2042946
> 
> ...



who is this @$$#0l(-??!?!?!?!?!!?
Plz send him to porkistan someone.


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## Hrishi (Dec 27, 2013)

And tommorow he is going to the place by Metro ? Seriously ?? I don't dare to travel by the metro , atleast not in morning.. The intense crowd , in this vaishali/dwarka lane..


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## amjath (Dec 27, 2013)

Rishi. said:


> And tommorow he is going to the place by Metro ? Seriously ?? I don't dare to travel by the metro , atleast not in morning.. The intense crowd , in this vaishali/dwarka lane..



old Rajiv days


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## dashing.sujay (Dec 28, 2013)

Once I saw a lady being crushed in the queue so badly, almost falling, I felt so sad but couldn't do anything. Even the guard was just standing. This happened at Rajiv chowk while catching train for NCC in the eve, a few weeks ago.


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## mediator (Dec 30, 2013)

Meanwhile, Here's a nice article for those who blindly believed AAP's claims of 50% cut in power tariff's and water bills as the government has no authority to reduce these.

Government has no authority to reduce power tariffs: DERC - The Economic Times on Mobile

Correct me if wrong, but even the security is under the centre. Meanwhile, there was a hug media publicity for this guy being an "IITIAN". I wonder why thrice elected Goa CM who is also an IITIAN did not receive the similar perks. 

*s30.postimg.org/jjgj9aa0x/995024_651784258193680_1876679908_n.jpg
imgur


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## Hrishi (Dec 30, 2013)

dashing.sujay said:


> Once I saw a lady being crushed in the queue so badly, almost falling, I felt so sad but couldn't do anything. Even the guard was just standing. This happened at Rajiv chowk while catching train for NCC in the eve, a few weeks ago.


A common scene at Rajiv Chowk. On a side note , never travel along with kids in Metro if you intend to change trains at any interchange stations.
This is the one of the reasons why metro trains have reserved coaches for ladies , but unfortunately "unko mens ke sath ajne ka jyada shauk hota he." 
I mean when you already have reserved coaches whats the point in flooding the un reserved coaches , while the first coach is not full. 

In politics why does everyone has to put forward only the negative sides of a person. ?? Damn it,!


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## bssunilreddy (Dec 30, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> Thats a human rights AND a constitutional rights violation



Yes its human rights violation if we see it in the right perspective buddy.


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## mediator (Jan 9, 2014)

Like I have said all this time, AAP will be used by the Baboon Party to stay in power for 2014 if the brainwashing reaches beyond Delhi.....so much for the Congress-mukt Delhi!

*s11.postimg.org/twhjlasr3/1528653_275959199223948_1559975959_n.jpg

A very good read : 4 ways the Congress won power through Constitutional coups - Rediff.com India News

I've been seeing AAPankwadis claiming of AAP winning. AAP asked people of delhi to vote for most honest party and Delhi voted for BJP. Kejriwal who sweared on his kids not to join or support Congress ended up taking the support of the most corrupt party that he staged all his drama so far.

Next, on how he did he "people's referendum"? Njoy => Last day of referendum, AAP likely to form government in Delhi - YouTube

He gathers a crowd of about 1000 and asks them "whoever wants us to form government in Delhi, please raise your hands" and then manual counting starts 1,2,3,4,5,6. So thousand people basically "represents" Delhi in his royal opinion as if Delhi elections were a joke and a timepass!

Now for some economics, details of what he did and the consequences of mindless freebies and subsidies. The whole notion of subsidy is to deliver to the poor, or to certain deprived section regardless of religion, cast, color or creed that secularism stands for. A subsidy has an objective, an analytical cost attached, a period and "who will benefit". It is not something given to @all in the name of anti-corruption and if given to @all, still has a huge analysis behind. Well, what happens if ill-researched subsidy is given?

Suppose 700L of water or anything is given for free and I consume 200L, the remaining 500L can be wasted easily or blackmarketed. This increases the consumption as well. Now the company shall pay a Rs100 thing for Rs.100 only. Delhi government will buy it for Rs.100 but will sell it for Rs.50 due to 50% tariff reduction that is promised mindlessly. AS a result, the Delhi government will end up with huge losses. How shall these losses will be compensated? Either it will take loans for the other nations or other countries or end up INCREASING the TAXES. Lets, assume it takes loan from other countries. Then the deficit which is in dollar value will increase and hence dollar value will rise leading to inflation. This is a vicious circle, as with inflation, losses will rise again and hence loans or TAXES. History has witnessed that this leads to a possible CIVIL UNREST.

Therefore, a subsidy is given when one has clear cut analysis on how to generate income as well where economy can be promoted. More to this, the water freebies will not be given to people living in housing societies, poor people who don't have meters, people who still get their water through tankers and rich people who will use it above the prescribed limits. So who actually this subsidy is aimed at? Is it pro-poor?


Here are some good reads on electricty and lesson from 2G and coalgate scams for the young crowd ---

Indian Power Sphere: Government has no authority to reduce power tariffs: DERC
Open letter to Arvind Kejriwal - Times Of India

Such childish acts like mindlesss subsidies and freebies end up increasing corruption exponentially, taxes and destroy any chances of good governance. A good governance basically aims at decreasing tariffs and bills through development.

Now talking of Gujarat, it has topmost governance, clean river, solar power panel on street light, surplus power etc all the factors which end up decreasing "tariffs and bills" through good governance rather than providing "subsidies and freebies". Please read ; Gujarat to get country&rsquo;s first smart grid - TOI Mobile | The Times of India Mobile Site

A solar power panel on street light is a self-sustained mechanism for which you don't have to pay for and hence reduces taxes through good governance.


Gujarat has also given a 30000 crore subsidy to Tata Nano, to lure them from WB to Gujarat. Result? Profits and employment! Thats just one example of subsidy and how it works rather than destroying the economy in the name of pro-poor and anti-corruption.


Now a little analysis on AAP and their statements

1. Kejriwal : Will remain AAM aadmi with simple living. He gets 10 room flat bigger than a bungalow, lives their and then calls for smaller flat on public demand and feedbacks.

2. Kejriwal : Will ride by metro. A special metro coach for him is inducted and since Delhi police has to do its duty a more expensive 3 tier security is incrporated. Now in this scenario there is no concern for public safety, a huge number which gathers to see him on metro station. A simple bomblast or terrorist activity could have made it into a national tragedy and hence no concern for public. Besides, Harshvardhan and many other politicians apart from AAP still go by metros. They never market. Same with Goa CM who goes by scooty and personally monitoring the building collapse today, where media is not showing that at all but busy in projecting Kejriwal as someone of minimalistic needs.

This is the same media who never showed 12 years of rapid development work in Gujarat, how Modi sent his personal men, IAS officers, choppers, more than 3 crore donation to Uttarakhand during floods where media distortied the whole episode to 15000 gujaratis only for 2 weeks on front page cover. Later TOI apologised for this distortion on Page Number - 9 (Sunday Times, Published on - July 14, 2013).

3. Corruption

Checkout yourself. First he claimed to have all the proof of Sheila corruption, and then asking for proof from Harshvardhan.

*www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKYrwp0qly4

Its an advice to AAP supporters to keep a close tag on Kejriwal on what he says on Swiss black money, RObert Vadra land scam and all the other scams he claimed to have proof for instead of getting infatuated or emotional about the whole episode.

4.NATIONAL VIEWS

Bhushan : Army is responsible for killing in Kashmir
Bhushan : Kashmir should be separated
Kejriwal : Don't hange Afzal Guru
Kejriwal : Batla house encounter fake and pro-Naxals and hence directly mocking the death of martyred Inspector Mohand CHand Sharma. Please do some research on the court verdicts as well. Is he beyond the court, army and the nation?

Army responsible for killing of Kashmiris Prashant Bhushan Lastupdate:- Wed, 6 Mar 2013 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com
AAP Founder Leader Prashant Bhushan Blames IB for targeting SIMI - YouTube
Don t regret my views on Kashmir Prashant Bhushan Lastupdate:- Fri, 14 Oct 2011 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com
*www.firstpost.com/topic/cricket/te...-for-separati-video-KtqmswhXyTU-117953-1.html
Indian Power Sphere: Government has no authority to reduce power tariffs: DERC
Arvind Kejriwal fully backs Kudankulam stir against Nuclear Power plant : Kudankulam

Had Kejriwal made all these points clear before the election and specifically said that they can/will joing Congress after elections or in case of hung assembly, would he have secured even 10 seats? Rewind your tapes and see the anti-congress fire that was present at that time.

One should take a note of Chiranjeevi a "clean, anti-corruption" guy in the south and how he protested againt BJP and congress and ultimately joined congress. IMO, Indian people are more of emotional, judgemental and hopeful rather than researchful, analytical and practical. Most would say "I don't like politics", "all politicians are the same" when politics is in their daily life, home, friendship and many politicians, contrary to their assumptions, indeed live a simple life irrespective of the party they belong to. But the unaware and innocent people need someone "new, clean, credentialful". Back then, people liked an economic top-cat Manmohan from Oxford who now has reduced India to an an utter economic failure. For those who don't know, this has been congress politics from very early times that whenever someone is winning, then raise someone who is "clean, new and stages anti-corruption protests" cut the winning party votes and finally forms an alliance with the projected "new, clean" guy and his party.

What happened to a COngress-mukt Dilli? So far any sensible person should know that corruption shall not be rooted out until and unless the dynasty politics is destroyed and Congress demolished, something which Mahatma Gandhi foresaw long back and said!

I have also seen AAPnkwadis talking about 150 crore Modi office. Perhaps, they should first understand his threat level, and threats from Lashkar, SIMI, Hizbul, Naxals etc. Secondly, that office is for many of his ministers and future ministers from where a central elixir will flow for the rest of the Gujarat. Even after all this if someone who can't do basic mathematics, still thinks otherwise, then he should understand the surplus profit. If you have a good income and people and servants are happy with you, then you have every right to buy a good car. Same with Modi, why can't Gujarat government build internation styled bullet proof offices when the profit they make is extremely good? Why do people expect doctors to be available all night when they are humans too and well doing politcians to think small?

This is like blaming Modi for using 50 crore on Sabarmati project where it has been delivered and become a clean tourist spot, contrary to the 1500 crore wasted by Shiela/Congress governent on yamuna, where it is still a gutter of the highest order and yet nobody complaints.

FInally, as discussed, first Kejriwal swears on his kids that he will not join Congress nor support them, then he joins. He talks of no security, then more security has to be added to his childishness, then he does referendum by counting heads from a sampl survey of 1000 people; he refuses for government vehicles, then takes; he refuses for luxury government bungalows, then takes and then due to pulic feedback gives it away.

None of the above is my point of concern. If you want to lead then just lead stop making childish claims and doing U-turns all the time. Nobody cares if you have a big office or extra security if you do good and people are happy with you.

For those who still don't get it. A leader is one who leads the nation on some solid principles where he is not wavered by what people say, like or dislike but what is collectively is in the best interest of the nation. He does not try to be "nice" or sagely. He "leads" rather than being led by the people! He is not confused or changes his statements often and randomly, but speaks with confidence, shows what he has done, how it has been done and gives promises based on certain analysis and observations instead of quick, impuslive, short-term freebies and subsidies that makes Indian public look lame and disastrous in long run!

In the end, every political party has corrupt people as corruption is in the very human nature. Kejriwal's AAP is no exception. What happened to Shazia Ilmi's sting operation? Her own party gave clean chit to her. Is that called justice? Why not set up thousands of committees on her as well like they were setup on Modi, where he welcomed all and most importantly SC's own SIT, the highest, the apex court which gave him clean **** twice now. Yet some cannot respect SC's judgement!!

Please join Modi pages as Media has not and will not show the massive development work carried out for 12+ years and will not show! Its upto you to chose a "proven" CM as PM who is applauded by internation diplomats and businessmen, people and elected thrice now, or to chose someone who has anti-national views and is yet to deliver and "will" do!

Sorry, for all this blabbering.....but 2014 is near. Vote for a party which has 'clear-cut' vision regarding National policies and National problems and not someone who spreads red-carpets for Anti-nationals like Syed Shah geelani, talks of separating Kashmir, speaks pro-Afzal guru and asks for Modi/Rahul's opinion before forming his own opinion on Kashmir.


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## bssunilreddy (Jan 9, 2014)

All the debates are worthless unless you cast your vote to the right person which my motherland needs.


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## Hrishi (Jan 17, 2014)

I somehow agree to the conspiracy theory that has recently popped up after congress & AAP's union in Delhi , that maybe AAP is Congress in Disguise. AAP is doing more harm to BJP than Congress. Don't know the truth , but my speculation sways my faith that recently stood-up when the recent election results were declared.
Had problems deciding between BJP and AAP , about casting my votes in Election but the recent strongholding of Congrez by virtue of AAP is giving me more reasons to believe in BJP.


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## ico (Jan 17, 2014)

^ yea, even I thought AAP being Congress' creation a conspiracy theory by BJP people on social media, but I guess I was wrong. Very wrong.


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## Anorion (Jan 17, 2014)

Rahul Gandhi must be reading the prince by machiavelli


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## Hrishi (Jan 17, 2014)

ico said:


> ^ yea, even I thought AAP being Congress' creation a conspiracy theory by BJP people on social media, but I guess I was wrong. Very wrong.



So you think it's really a conspiracy theory or maybe a part of the truth.?


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## Skyh3ck (Jan 20, 2014)

now the Kejriwal and AAP is in government for almost a month and they will be in government at least another 4 to 5 month till Loksabha Election, why they are not taking any action against ex CM, Officer of the Congress government who did corruption while in Power, 

when the Anna led movement started i thought it will be good, even when AAP was formed i thought it will be good for the public, but then Also AAP and Kejriwal started the Minority Appeasement just like congress. At least Modi says in front of everyone and SECULAR media that he does not consider any community as minority, and all the policy and government plans are for Indians, (not for Majority or Minority)...

AAP part should stop and oppose the politics of Vote banks, now it making sense why the BJP even after winning most seats is staying out of power and AAP created a government with the help of Congress, which was its biggest enemy in fight against corruption..


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## rhitwick (Jan 20, 2014)

Comparative study between "Trinamool Congress" of West Bengal led by Mamta Banerjee and "Aam Admi Party" of Delhi led by Arvind Kejriwal

Disclaimer: All things I posted here are totally how *I* (I, and only I) see the things. Might not match 'your' views and or may not be proven right in every case 


*Trinamool (TMC)**AAP*Led by Mamta BanerjeeLed by Arvind KejriwalCame into power after defeating CPM which was ruling for 34 years! Came into power after defeating Congress which was ruling for 15 years!Has no particular political agenda. Mostly 'movement' based. Has no political vision rather than staying in power as long as possible.Has no political agenda along with no political vision. Not aware of capabilityCongress was ally when came into powerCongress is ally when came into powerCongress left midwayCongress MLAs were exposed of having ulterior motive of leaving this party midwayRevolted against Congress even when it was an allyRevolted against Congress even when it is an allyDoes not agree to policies defined by Congress (FDI, Land bill etc)Does not agree to policies defined by Congress (FDI till now, rest not sure)Stay simple approach (CM still lives in her old home)Stay simple approach (Though moved to new home)At first year of rule did not encourage too much security, but 2.5 years later can be seen having more securityDoes not have 'Z' category securityTravels in a normal hatchbackTravels in a normal hatchbackHas money donation policy for each event in state (like each and every event she attends too or any mishaps. Eg. People died of drinking illegal hoot and she ordered to give 2Lack to each family of dead, Special monetary benefits to Moulavi etc )In the first month of rule, already given free water, halved electricity rate. Brace for futureTold in its first year completion that 100% work that they were supposed to do in five years, is doneClaimed that they have done more work in one month than Congress govt.Makes big promises to people wherever she goes(but has learnt not to take herself seriously and neither the promises)Made big promises before coming to power. As he's novice, he's taking himself seriouslyHas a political career of 30+ years. Has worked with and against veterans. Had renowned political gurus and everyone agrees she knows politics. Novice in politics. Does not have a political guru and this thing alone would make him suffer in future. My advice : ask Sheila Dixit to be their political adviser. At least they would know what not to do.


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## Faun (Feb 15, 2014)

*pbs.twimg.com/media/Bgfcl7jCcAA6ATn.jpg

What's with the negative tone of newspaper's headlines ?

Both Congress and BJP are together when it comes to Jan Lokpal bill. I'd not want these parties to rule India. They have ruled enough.


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## Makx (Feb 15, 2014)

With money power you can always influence the news to be your way if not hide it completely.


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## 10 numberi (Feb 15, 2014)

rhitwick said:


> Comparative study between "Trinamool Congress" of West Bengal led by Mamta Banerjee and "Aam Admi Party" of Delhi led by Arvind Kejriwal
> 
> Disclaimer: All things I posted here are totally how *I* (I, and only I) see the things. Might not match 'your' views and or may not be proven right in every case



You do CPIM?


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## rhitwick (Feb 15, 2014)

10 numberi said:


> You do CPIM?



No. I'm for Congress.


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## ico (Feb 15, 2014)

rhitwick said:


> No. I'm for Congress.


why???


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## 10 numberi (Feb 15, 2014)

rhitwick said:


> No. I'm for Congress.



What a pity!



ico said:


> why???



Congress or BJP it does not matter. Both are same. 

As  a matter of fact India is filled with fools (sorry for the language.). Hmph.. modi is just BS! He will come & help reliance loot more. I dont want to start. He is either the most overrated politician in india. What kejriwal told most of us (who are not sleeping) already knew. 

What we need is those lakhs of crores of black money stored in personal accounts in swiss banks. Get them you get a developed country or atleast the situation will improve a little bit.


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## Raaabo (Mar 19, 2014)

That Signal From the Beginning of Time Could Redefine Our Universe - Wired Science -- Amidst all the nonsense that was said in this thread, it's good that some actual evidence has come along


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## snap (Mar 19, 2014)

Raaabo said:


> That Signal From the Beginning of Time Could Redefine Our Universe - Wired Science -- Amidst all the nonsense that was said in this thread, it's good that some actual evidence has come along



ahh i forgot to post this in news section, well this thread is more suitable for its discussion it seems 

- - - Updated - - -

and Putin announces that Russia will annex Crimea into the Russian Federation


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## rhitwick (Mar 24, 2014)

BJP seems to have created a Frankenstein in the name of MODI. All of a sudden a man became more important than the principles of the party, his wishes are command. 
Good going BJP. Hope they can control him in future.

b/w, I wonder what would the VHP activists have done if "Har har Rahul/ghar ghar Rahul" slogan had had coined by Congress?!!!


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## ico (Mar 25, 2014)

rhitwick said:


> BJP seems to have created a Frankenstein in the name of MODI. All of a sudden a man became more important than the principles of the party, his wishes are command.
> Good going BJP. Hope they can control him in future.
> 
> *b/w, I wonder what would the VHP activists have done if "Har har Rahul/ghar ghar Rahul" slogan had had coined by Congress?!!!*


They'd have laughed.  Just like I laugh on the Modi slogan. 

Ever thought about a family being more important or rather the family being the party itself?

Why do you come up with only silly things to post?

I can understand a Congi fanboy pointing out a flaw in BJP which isn't present in Congress.


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## rhitwick (Mar 25, 2014)

ico said:


> Ever thought about a family being more important or rather the family being the party itself?


What does that even mean?



> Why do you come up with only silly things to post?


Define 'silly' w.r.t this post.



> I can understand a Congi fanboy pointing out a flaw in BJP which isn't present in Congress.


So your issue is "why I, being a congi fanboy pointed out flaw in BJP?" or you want to talk about "the issue in focus which 'I' ignored w.r.t Congress?"


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## ico (Mar 25, 2014)

rhitwick said:


> So your issue is "why I, being a congi fanboy pointed out flaw in BJP?" or you want to talk about "the issue in focus which 'I' ignored w.r.t Congress?"


Use your conscience.


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## Raaabo (Mar 25, 2014)

Yeah I don't get it either ico?

It was a rhetorical question I thought... we all know the answer 

This is like bad reality TV, until you realise that this is the reality of our country


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## funskar (Mar 26, 2014)

The biggest joker & B*****D politician  kejriwal in indian history ..
Full of fakes ,false oaths n goosy tricks to earn money


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## amjath (Mar 30, 2014)

amjath said:


> 38% of B>J<P MP's are criminals wow


For blind supporters who blindly says "I want change, so I'm giving chance for this guy"


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## rhitwick (Apr 7, 2014)

*www.ndtv.com/elections/article/election-2014/10-differences-between-congress-bjp-manifestos-505486
b/w #CopyCatManifesto is trending in Twitter 
*www.ndtv.com/news/images/manifesto-difference-650.jpg


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## whitestar_999 (Apr 7, 2014)

^^useless.i wonder if really educated people even bother reading election manifestos.political compulsions,economic conditions & geopolitics decide what decisions will be made.beggars can't be choosers as it was clearly shown during 1991 economic reforms.


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## vkl (Apr 16, 2014)

*www.firstpost.com/india/rushdie-co-on-modi-passing-off-prejudice-as-principle-1480559.html


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## Inceptionist (Apr 18, 2014)

[h=1]Vote for Supriya Sule or lose water, ‘threatens’ Ajit Pawar[/h]


> Maharashtra Deputy Chief Minister Ajit Pawar is alleged to have  warned residents of a village in Baramati on Wednesday night — the eve  of polling — that he would “cut off” their water supply if they did not  vote for his cousin and sitting NCP MP Supriya Sule.
> A purported video of Pawar addressing a gathering in Masalwadi  village has been cited in a complaint filed by Suresh Khopde, a former  IPS officer and AAP candidate from Baramati, at the Vadgaon (Nimbalkar)  police station. The police are yet to register the complaint.
> Assistant Police Inspector Vilas Bhosale said due to the polling  process he did not get time to go through the complaint. “I will check  the veracity of the incident and take proper action thereafter,” he  said.
> While the faces in the video are not visible as it is too dark, the  audio is clear. “Tomorrow voting will be undertaken. If anybody from  this village indulges in any trouble, I will cut off the water (supply)  to the village. Supriya is getting piles of votes from the entire  Baramati (constituency), so votes from your village won’t change  anything. My sister will neither win nor lose because of your votes. But  I will get to know from the voting machine (who you have voted for),  and then I will tell these people that if you have so much arrogance, I  can’t help you.
> ...



*indianexpress.com/article/india/politics/vote-supriya-or-lose-water-threatens-ajit/


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## gopi_vbboy (Apr 18, 2014)

So there is a modi "wave" in TDF?


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## theserpent (May 12, 2014)

exit polls show clear win for NDA


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## sam_738844 (May 13, 2014)

gopi_vbboy said:


> So there is a modi "wave" in TDF?



yes there is, also there is this guy

ab ki bar... [MENTION=32490]krishnandu.sarkar[/MENTION]


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## Anorion (May 13, 2014)

these politicians and news anchors should get some training in how to argue on tv

congress says bjp is corrupt, bjp says congress has no right to call us corrupt and gives examples of congress being corrupt. the problem here is topic is changed from bjp being corrupt to who is more corrupt. the fallacy here is tu quoque fallacy. even if congress is corrupt, it can be right when it is calling bjp corrupt, especially more so because they know so much about corruption. all wasted footage on news channels will be drastically changed if everyone can understand this simple thing. suspect these time wasting arguments are gonna continue for long time.

after that this happens all the time >> 





> argumentum ad hominem, a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.


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## sam_738844 (May 13, 2014)

theserpent said:


> exit polls show clear win for NDA



had high hopes about Bengal, instead found CPM getting seats dangerously close to TMC, bjp only 2, even cong had more seats. Nothing will be ever better in  WB,disappointing :'(


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## theserpent (May 29, 2014)

Whats this article 370 about?


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## Pasapa (May 29, 2014)

I think it is about not allowing nonkashmiris to own land in Kashmir. Im not sure


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## snap (Jun 19, 2014)

I am Julian Assange, publisher of Wikileaks. Ask me anything. : IAmA


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## theterminator (Nov 18, 2014)

Thought of sharing


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## Anorion (Nov 19, 2014)

why call it wikileaks. It should just be leaks. It's not a wiki. It used to be though, before the Reuters reporter video.


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## Nanducob (Dec 25, 2014)

*fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/s600x600/10502174_746530322095953_3146371010128323024_n.jpg?oh=0c5556ec83c4d376487edd5093fe087d&oe=54FD5941&__gda__=1429406119_d4e6cd328b4ed20f9fc31a4879e22a70


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## Nerevarine (Dec 25, 2014)

Dr Zakir Naik Fan club, i imagine it would be filled with close minded stupid zealots


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## Nanducob (Dec 25, 2014)

Nerevarine said:


> Dr Zakir Naik Fan club, i imagine it would be filled with close minded stupid zealots


Zakir Naik-A fck who uses his medical degree as a cover  to propagate his false religious stupidity and beliefs.No offense to my fellow Muslim brothers ,but he one is surely a SOB.
.
This one is a scholar ,got this gem of a comment from that fanpage.
*s15.postimg.org/v3c3mk48r/screenshot_www_facebook_com_2014_12_25_20_36_51.png


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## theserpent (Dec 26, 2014)

People who are calling a ban on P.k haven't seen the movie. The Movie P.k isn't denying the existence of GOD, but the fraudsters.
Yes,I do know that this hurts sentiments and stuff


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## Nanducob (Dec 26, 2014)




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## Nerevarine (Dec 26, 2014)

I just want to slap him so hard.. the world is better off without a person like him


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## GhorMaanas (Dec 28, 2014)

"Kaliyug must also have its say." (not my words)
He is one of the agents of Kaliyug, the polluter of minds.

I recall one of his many 'stunts', that being calling some religious leaders to share the dais with him, under the guise of 'world peace and equality of religions', something like that, i think during the beginning of his 'career'. Sri Ravishankar was the one who had accepted his invitation one of those days. without losing much time, ZN quickly stooped down to his trademark-level, and the meet unveiled its true purpose - ridiculing & denigrating others and their beliefs, though yes, in a little sugar-coated manner. 
SR later went on record, in a detailed interview of sorts, lamenting his decision to accept the invite, and detailing how that swoon resorted to verbal gymnastics to enthrall the zombie-audience and feed their collective superiority complex, engaging in smearing tactics. SR was literally caught off-guard on the stage, trying to make out what the hell was happening! he expressed disagreement there i think, and the next day or sometime later, in a public meet, expressed regret to have gotten trapped in the treachery of such a charlatan. 
can't blame him. during those days, even i was pleasantly surprised and used to wonder about ZN, thinking of him to be some scholar attempting to unite people, until of course, i watched a video or two of his. there's a big ground here at Mumbai, which used to be reserved for his feed-the-zombies shows. since then, many print and visual media debates later and calls for banning his TV channel and shows, he's still continuing attacks on people's psyches, unabated i guess.


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## Skyh3ck (Dec 29, 2014)

Thank GOD i am not born in any religion, ( though on government certificates i have submit to one of the religion, but what i follow can not be considered as a religion, its a way of life) 

this mullas, pops, and babas serve people what they want, thats it

and also its Kalyug, it will do whatever it has to do


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## Vyom (Feb 10, 2015)

AAP won Delhi Elections 2015:
*www.digit.in/forum/random-news/189885-delhi-election-2015-a.html


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## Anorion (Feb 11, 2015)

what is one positive change BJP will bring to the country, and by when will they do it?


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## rhitwick (Feb 11, 2015)

^10 kids per woman. 

(ASAP they get custody of them)


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## tkin (Feb 11, 2015)

Anorion said:


> what is one positive change BJP will bring to the country, and by when will they do it?


India is corrupted to its core, its not possible to save this country. NO PARTY CAN DO IT. The overpopulation, and the mentality of greed will always prevail. Democracy will be the death of us.


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## amjath (Feb 11, 2015)

tkin said:


> India is corrupted to its core, its not possible to save this country. NO PARTY CAN DO IT. The overpopulation, and the mentality of greed will always prevail. Democracy will be the death of us.


India is on 85 and China is on 100 with a change of 2 and 4 points respectively against corruption from 2013 to 2014 

2014 Corruption Perceptions Index -- Results

When will we learn big country is never a problem. Then why our country is spiltted into states and cities with chief ministers  and MLAs?


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## Anorion (Feb 12, 2015)

Oh. Was all ready to fight. No one said "development"? 



> Critics say that in the quest for big-ticket industries, from automobiles to so-called ultra-mega power projects, the state government has neglected basic social infrastructure such as education and sanitation. They say there has also been a price to pay for rapid industrialization—displacement of poor inhabitants, for instance. Sceptics question whether the Gujarat model can even be implemented on a national scale. “Numerous initiatives that the state of Gujarat has taken in recent years confirm the unqualified faith of the rulers in the workings of the market and in the capacity of the private investor to meet the development needs of the state,” said Atul Sood, a professor at Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU) in New Delhi and a contributor to the book, Poverty Amidst Prosperity: Essays on the Trajectory of Development in Gujarat. “As a result, governance in Gujarat has been fashioned to the needs of the private investor with public investment taking a back seat. So unquestioned is the faith in private investor that the investor is not just bringing the investment but also deciding the priorities of development,” Sood said.
> 
> Read more at: The Narendra Modi model of development - Livemint



Apart from the flip side, there is also the matter of the terrible price being paid



> Despite the bold warning from the recent Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report of the catastrophic impacts of rising temperature on the global climate, Narendra Modi's Government is all set to enact changes to weaken the existing environment and land acquisition laws of India, in order to promote industrialisation and ensure high economic growth, allege activists and environmental experts.



*www.opendemocracy.net/openindia/basudev-mahapatra/modi-government’s-war-on-environment

so in this case development =/= progress 

Seriously, even thieves are preferable to this.


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## amjath (Feb 12, 2015)

^ what many blind people don't know about Gujarat.



> Dubbing the entire Gujarat model hollow and substantiating their claims with a slew of statistics, some said that under the current Bharatiya Janata Party regime, the State has seen the closure of more than 60,000 small scale industries in 10 years and a massive mounting of the debt. They said even if one was to go by the Government’s own numbers between the years 2005-06 and 2010-11, growth in the Gross State Domestic Product (GSDP) in agriculture and allied sector was only 3.44 per cent.



Gujarat model of development draws flak - The Hindu


So this government trying to prove the same in pan India 
Nod for ordinance to amend Land Act - The Hindu: Mobile Edition

So what will  happens, farmers lose lands  hybrid crops will come into picture. Hybrid crops increases diseases so there will be hospitals every corner and everyone will have multiple medical insurance


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## tkin (Feb 12, 2015)

And the alternative would be? We are a country of over a billion people and last I checked, the only country with such a large population is china which followed even a more extreme version of the so called Gujrat model and somehow is feeding their people.

We have a huge unemployed workforce and its climbing day by day. Last year over 100,000 unemployed junior engineers had registered themselves with the employment exchange in Tamilnadu alone. Over half of my friends have no job. Over 70% of my juniors have no job. EVERY ONE, from engineers to arts students are fighting for government jobs and bank exams. But these jobs also have a limit.

Everyday I see hundreds of people standing in streets outside our office and handing out leaflets, or asking us to enroll in some credit card program, these people, mostly aged 30 yrs or more are earning less than 10,000 pm, and have to support a family. No disrespect to anyone but what will happen to these people?

We have no remarkable industry in India, we have no oil, no nuclear fuel, no rare earth material(used for electronics). We do not have the expertise like Japanese people to use other countries resources to provide better service. Our workforce is poorly trained. We have no population control system. So, near future, when our population turns 2 billion, what will happen? 

So what is the future of India? When our parents are gone, their pensions, savings all are gone, how will this unemployed people feed themselves? Or their family?


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## whitestar_999 (Feb 12, 2015)

[MENTION=127004]amjath[/MENTION]  [MENTION=56202]Anorion[/MENTION] ,never see anything with a narrow point of view for there is nothing in this world for which you can not get a justifiable disapproval.every thing comes with a price.creation & destruction go hand in hand.more people have been killed in car/automobile accidents than in two world wars put together but nobody asks for ban on automobiles.farmers & small scale industries not adapting to modern economic & technological trends are destined for extinction.

& if you think environment has absolute dominance over development rest assured that poverty & other side effects of poor development will kill people faster & more than any natural calamity in near future.


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## Skud (Feb 12, 2015)

whitestar_999 said:


> @amjath    @Anorion  ,never see anything with a narrow point of view for there is nothing in  this world for which you can not get a justifiable disapproval.every  thing comes with a price.creation & destruction go hand in hand.more  people have been killed in car/automobile accidents than in two world  wars put together but nobody asks for ban on automobiles.*farmers & small scale industries not adapting to modern economic & technological trends are destined for extinction*.
> 
> & if you think environment has absolute dominance over development  rest assured that poverty & other side effects of poor development  will kill people faster & more than any natural calamity in near  future.




The same theory should apply to large scale industrialists and  businessmen also. Govt. should never interfere with so called stimuli,  packages etc. to revive dying private corporations/entities and should  just let them die natural deaths. But what happens is exactly the  opposite. Spicejet comes to mind. Also the environment norms set by the  previous Govt. is nowhere as stringent as the existing norms in West. No  point weakening them further.

Economic stimuli in form of tax break etc. are okay as long as it benefits the mass, not the individuals. But again that's hardly the case in this country.


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## whitestar_999 (Feb 13, 2015)

[MENTION=1270]Skud[/MENTION],economic stimulus packages are must to break free from cycle of depression,don't confuse them with individual aid packages.read a bit about very successful keynesian economic policy.
World War II and the Triumph of Keynesianism: Newsroom: The Independent Institute

as for spicejet mess again you are wrong.air travel sector in India needs more competition not less & exit of a lcc like spicejet would have seriously affected market dynamics.it was already visible in huge jump in prices of tickets of other airlines.Air India on the other hand does not merit same treatment going by same market dynamics because of its public nature & history unlike spicejet.

As for environment i guess you missed this:
Jayanthi Natarajan sat on 350 files that had clearances - The Times of India
in India problem is not laws but their subjectivity & implementation.also don't compare with west because they can afford the luxury of following "green policies" after single-handedly polluting earth's environment.


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## Skud (Feb 13, 2015)

whitestar_999 said:


> @Skud,economic stimulus packages are must to break free from cycle of depression,don't confuse them with individual aid packages.read a bit about very successful keynesian economic policy.
> World War II and the Triumph of Keynesianism: Newsroom: The Independent Institute
> 
> as for spicejet mess again you are wrong.air travel sector in India needs more competition not less & exit of a lcc like spicejet would have seriously affected market dynamics.it was already visible in huge jump in prices of tickets of other airlines.Air India on the other hand does not merit same treatment going by same market dynamics because of its public nature & history unlike spicejet.
> ...




So anything of public nature Govt. doesn't need to support, but it should go out its way to support private entities for the sake of private individuals. Fact is, if ever Air India goes down there will be even greater surge in prices. Same with telecom and other sectors. Because of the presence of public entities, we are still in a position to enjoy cost effective solutions. You better check the history of private banks and insurance cos prior to nationalization to get the picture. Also the rules of competition means the competition itself should take care of winners and losers, and only the fittest will survive at the end. Providing external intervention in itself is detrimental to competition.

And regarding the last part, as you have rightly stated problem is implementation, not the law itself, so changing the law is not exactly the road forward.


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## Anorion (Feb 13, 2015)

We do not need to follow the same destructive growth trajectories as industrialized countries. 
It is called leap frogging. 

And it is for the sake of the trees and tigers themselves, not what effect they have on humans.

still ruminating on   [MENTION=52329]tkin[/MENTION]'s post. Maybe these countries grill their people more, there is less apathy and celebration of the "we are like this only" attitude.


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## Skud (Feb 13, 2015)

tkin said:


> And the alternative would be? We are a country of over a billion people and last I checked, the only country with such a large population is china which followed even a more extreme version of the so called Gujrat model and somehow is feeding their people.
> 
> We have a huge unemployed workforce and its climbing day by day. Last year over 100,000 unemployed junior engineers had registered themselves with the employment exchange in Tamilnadu alone. Over half of my friends have no job. Over 70% of my juniors have no job. EVERY ONE, from engineers to arts students are fighting for government jobs and bank exams. But these jobs also have a limit.
> 
> ...




May be, just may be, one of the reasons of remaining jobless (not specifying your friends btw) is our attitude to jobs itself, we need a certain level of salary, status, blah, blah, blah to even consider a job instead of just having a means to support oneself.


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## tkin (Feb 13, 2015)

Skud said:


> May be, just may be, one of the reasons of remaining jobless (not specifying your friends btw) is our attitude to jobs itself, we need a certain level of salary, status, blah, blah, blah to even consider a job instead of just having a means to support oneself.


I'll give another example, what is the minimum wage is US? $6, $8 per hour? What's the minimum wage here? None. There are jobs here, in Kolkata, 5000/- per month for full time software developer. And if they put out advertisement for 10 positions, 1000 will flock at the interview and they are asking for degree engineers only. So if a person had studied in general stream, or diploma, how will they get a job? Last year over 10 lakh people gave banking exams. Wonder how many got selected?

So the question is that these people, earning 5000/- per month, can support themselves because they have a house, and some cash, maybe parents are living with pensions etc. Is it possible to stay alive at 5000/- per month while maintaining a family and infrastructure?

People here do not care about statuses that much, youngsters do that, but a person 30yrs+ age with a family wants to survive, give education to their children, make a good living. They don't care about job status. But they can't very well become a sweeper or a waiter working at a roadside hotel.

So can you suggest some non government jobs for a person, B.A, or B.S.C qualified?


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## whitestar_999 (Feb 13, 2015)

> You better check the history of private banks and insurance cos prior to nationalization to get the picture.


no offense to you or anyone else but i really don't like selective facts pieced together as complete truth which coincidentally is the weapon of choice for every religious extremist too.*there never was any true private sector in India before 1991 economic reforms unless you count crony & crooked industrialists greasing palms of bureaucrats & politicians of "socialist era".Read about b]"Hindu growth rate"*.also it is quite funny that you are bringing telecom sector in your argument which is the strongest proof of govt companies inefficiency totally in contrast with pvt sector.I guess you weren't around when people used to throw parties to celebrate their getting of bsnl landline phone after waiting for 2-3 years.Even today Bsnl is holding back the growth of broadband sector in India by refusing to open up its copper wire network even when pvt players are willing to pay for its usage.
Why Internet connections are fastest in South Korea - CNN.com


> There is vigorous debate in the telecommunications world about the role "open networks" have in creating fast, cheap Internet connections.
> The idea behind an "open" system is essentially that, for a fee, broadband providers must share the cables that carry Internet signals into people's homes.
> Companies that build those lines typically oppose this sharing. A number of governments, including South Korea and Japan and several European countries, have experimented with or embraced infrastructure-sharing as a way to get new companies to compete in the broadband market.
> The U.S. does not require broadband providers to share their lines, and some experts cite Korea's relative openness as one reason the Internet there is so much faster and cheaper than it is here.
> The most important thing is that countries create a way for companies to enter the broadband market without having to pay for huge amounts of infrastructure, said Faris.



just imagine Beam telecom providing services in entire  Delhi by spending much less on infrastructure compared to what they spent to create their present limited coverage area.



> Also the rules of competition means the competition itself should take care of winners and losers, and only the fittest will survive at the end. Providing external intervention in itself is detrimental to competition.


You forgot about the most important part,the Referee/Umpire without whom no competition can be fair.Govt's interventions are supposed to be of this type in a capitalist economy.Global crisis of 2008 was mostly because of lack of this by US regulators.No matter how good the system is,it doesn't matter if those running it are not.You can not call it as fault of system(for those who like to give 2008 crisis as proof of non-working of capitalist system.

*In the end i will just say this:
doing same thing again after 1-2 failures expecting different result 3rd time is courage /conviction.
doing same thing again after dozens of failures expecting different result this time is foolishness.
India tried socialist model for more than 40 years & ended up holding a bowl at IMF's door mortgaging its gold reserves.USSR operated govt companies making everything from cigarettes to fighter jets & it collapsed.China tried same thing & ended up with Mao's Great Famine.Govt should do what it is supposed to do,govern.There is a reason why governance & business are 2 different words in english.Govt should focus on creating a better & efficient police force instead of trying to sell air tickets to women foreigners without warning them about dangers of traveling alone in cabs in delhi & many other cities.*


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## Anorion (Feb 13, 2015)

ok. Let's say 2020? BJP, by it's own admission, wants to achieve the following:  

- Eradication of poverty and unemployment 
- Making India a major sports power in the world
- Linking all the rivers of India
- Returning of displaced people to their native places
- Making India a global manufacturing hub
- Replacing petrol with fuel cells 
- Bring the USD and INR on par
- Golden Quadrilateral of _Bullet Trains!!_ 

At least they are aiming high. Do we have a roadmap? How many of you believe some or all of this is possible?


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## ico (Feb 13, 2015)

anybody knows what happened to SpiceJet?

Sure they were posting losses before, but they were posting profits circa 2013 iirc and about to go bust in 2014?

UPDATE 1-SpiceJet posts surprise profit, lifts Indian airline stocks | Reuters
SpiceJet profit down 10% to Rs.50.6 crore


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## whitestar_999 (Feb 13, 2015)

> "Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital."
> --  Aaron Levenstein



Just leave it at that.


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## snap (Feb 14, 2015)

"People can come up with statistics to prove anything" - Homer Simpson


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## Skud (Feb 14, 2015)

whitestar_999 said:


> no offense to you or anyone else but i really don't like selective facts pieced together as complete truth which coincidentally is the weapon of choice for every religious extremist too.*there never was any true private sector in India before 1991 economic reforms unless you count crony & crooked industrialists greasing palms of bureaucrats & politicians of "socialist era".Read about b]"Hindu growth rate"*.



Those are not selective facts, they were rampant and that's why the nationalization happened. And the Tatas and Birlas do exist during socialist era. Think you are right about that crony, crooked part. Oh, here's the latest contribution of the "true private sector':-

Rs 83,000 crore revenue lost on SEZs in 6 years - The Times of India

Tax-free SEZs new havens to stash cash - The Times of India

Land acquired for SEZs sold off, put to other uses: CAG - The Times of India

Probably the biggest scam in this country, and still no noise anywhere.




> also it is quite funny that you are bringing telecom sector in your argument which is the strongest proof of govt companies inefficiency totally in contrast with pvt sector.*I guess you weren't around when people used to throw parties to celebrate their getting of bsnl landline phone after waiting for 2-3 years.*



Well I am too old to miss that. But hey, that's a selective fact and apparently from the socialist era. You don't wait 2-3 years nowadays. Hardly 2-3 days if you follow up. And guess what, Airtel simply refuses to provide connection in my area. Funny part, it does provide services at the other side of the railway line. And I live in a bloody state capital.




> Even today Bsnl is holding back the growth of broadband sector in India  by refusing to open up its copper wire network *even when pvt players are  willing to pay for its usage*.
> Why Internet connections are fastest in South Korea - CNN.com
> 
> just imagine Beam telecom providing services in entire  Delhi by  spending much less on infrastructure compared to what they spent to  create their present limited coverage area.




Technicality aside (which I do agree I am not very aware of), the private players would anyway pass the cost to the end user whether the network is shared or their own. At the end of the day, network sharing will only enable the company have higher margins. For the customer, hardly a Rs 100/- change on a Rs 1000+ package, that too if the company is actually willing to pass on some benefit.





> You forgot about the most important part,the Referee/Umpire without whom no competition can be fair.Govt's interventions are supposed to be of this type in a capitalist economy.Global crisis of 2008 was mostly because of lack of this by US regulators.No matter how good the system is,it doesn't matter if those running it are not.You can not call it as fault of system(for those who like to give 2008 crisis as proof of non-working of capitalist system.



Agree on that. Govt. should play the referee's role, and ensure free and fair play and should not take sides (like not acquiring land on behalf of pvt cos and such). Also he should use the yellow and red cards properly and ensure no foul play. I am waiting to see how many will be shown red cards in this SEZ scam.



> *In the end i will just say this:
> doing same thing again after 1-2 failures expecting different result 3rd time is courage /conviction.
> doing same thing again after dozens of failures expecting different result this time is foolishness.
> India tried socialist model for more than 40 years & ended up holding a bowl at IMF's door mortgaging its gold reserves.USSR operated govt companies making everything from cigarettes to fighter jets & it collapsed.China tried same thing & ended up with Mao's Great Famine.Govt should do what it is supposed to do,govern.There is a reason why governance & business are 2 different words in english.Govt should focus on creating a better & efficient police force instead of trying to sell air tickets to women foreigners without warning them about dangers of traveling alone in cabs in delhi & many other cities.*




Your true private sector is "working" for the past 24 years and its a similar disaster. As I have already mentioned (and as everybody knows), Govt. was forced to do business because those who should do it was not doing it properly. Creating better governance will actually hit the margins of your true private sector harder. Guess no one wants that.


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## whitestar_999 (Feb 14, 2015)

I can write an essay about benefits of privatization but what's the point(& another on why SEZ concept failed only in India while being successful everywhere else,reason being govt half baked policies).It is like this:"Those who believe no proof is necessary,those who don't no evidence is sufficient".Thankfully those in power understand this as unlike you or me they actually know the complete situation instead of relying on news media & personal experiences.

btw again don't take it otherwise but you tried to counter contributions of pvt sector to India's telecom sector by this:


> You don't wait 2-3 years nowadays. Hardly 2-3 days if you follow up. And guess what, Airtel simply refuses to provide connection in my area. Funny part, it does provide services at the other side of the railway line. And I live in a bloody state capital.



& to world famous economic events like *India's 1991 economic crisis,USSR's collapse & Mao's great famine* by this:


> Your true private sector is "working" for the past 24 years and its a *similar disaster*



*A friendly advice,to put up a good argument do some research.You could have given some arguments based on work of Amartya Sen & Joseph Stiglitz(search for his articles in The Hindu newspaper,quite informative) & i would have countered with arguments based on work of Jagdish Bhagwati.*


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## Skud (Feb 14, 2015)

whitestar_999 said:


> I can write an essay about benefits of privatization but what's the point(& another on why SEZ concept failed only in India while being successful everywhere else,reason being govt half baked policies).It is like this:"Those who believe no proof is necessary,those who don't no evidence is sufficient".Thankfully those in power understand this as unlike you or me they actually know the complete situation instead of relying on news media & personal experiences.
> 
> btw again don't take it otherwise but you tried to counter contributions of pvt sector to India's telecom sector by this:
> 
> ...




You are trying to theorize everything overlooking the ground realities and cold facts and blaming everything of Govt & bureaucracy and turning a complete blind eye on the pvt sector. I leave it at that. Thankfully, unlike anyone else the electorate actually know better, we will see who was right 4 years later.


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## GhorMaanas (Feb 19, 2015)

came across this article. thought of sharing for a read (its in Hindi):

Low-cost import from China hits local steel manufacturers in India - money.bhaskar.com


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## Flash (Feb 21, 2015)

People of Delhi love their Chief Minister - Album on Imgur


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## GhorMaanas (Feb 22, 2015)

Flash said:


> People of Delhi love their Chief Minister - Album on Imgur



reminded me of Mr. Parrikar (but there're perhaps no photos of him going to buy milk & vegetables).
is the above album from pre-poll times (although album-creation date is of today)? because apart from the OB vans and the media crew, security personnel are not to be seen. IMO Mr. Kejriwal should take some security for his daily stroll as well.

P.S. - okay saw 2 cops on a motorbike and perhaps some AAP workers following him and his family in one of the latter images.


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## isaac12345 (May 21, 2015)

Would just like to add that one should not believe economists at face value whether its amartya sen or the local college professor. The discipline is in such bad state that there isn't even consensus on how banks lend money, let alone the fact that the nobel prize in economics is a 'fake' one(something the Nobel family is actually pissed off about - *en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Memorial_Prize_in_Economic_Sciences#Controversies_and_criticisms) . Another example being that they dont even consider the laws of thermodynamics when modelling or considering economies. So it essentially ends up as perpetual motion machines!

 BE VERY VERY CAREFUL AND SKEPTICAL WHEN IT COMES TO ECONOMICS. Throughout history they have mostly been the priests that justifies the divine position of the kings


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## Anorion (Jul 15, 2015)

This is from Parzania. 
Language used is funny. And NSFW. 


Spoiler



want a thesis?
I will give you a ****ing thesis. I will give you a thesis about Gandhi, a man who was able to unite the Hindus and Muslims for the cause of freedom and equality until some **** for brains, right wing, hindu thought the world would be a better place if you put a bullet through the man's stomach. Then a few idiot muslims set off some bombs in Bombay in the early 90s and a new party plays it for all it's worth to get into power. And this party features many of the same types of superstar players as the pricks that wanted Gandhi dead. But now, they were able to use a private group called the parishad, which is India's own version of the KKK, to convince the Hindu population that they have been repressed by the Muslims all along, even though Muslims make up less than 14% of the population, and most of them are poor as **** anyway. The Parishad, just like some of those idiot southern *******s with their burning crosses, loved to pretend that theology supports their political agendas as if it is God's will to be an *******. We don't need to take care of the people, we need to control them, and if using god to make them hate each other works, then so be it. 
This was no backlash. And people are starting to figure it out. They act as if this was a natural reaction at godhra.
But you tell me, how you could mobilize a hundred thousand citizens with swords and trishuls and pipe bombs within twenty four hours. How did the men have all the voter's lists? So, they knew exactly where all the Muslims lived. Why were the names of every Muslim businessman run in the newspaper with their addresses not long before? Why were flags distributed systematically to all of the Hindu owned businesses before Godhra had even occured? 
I'll tell you why. 
This riot, wasn't a riot. It was a planned act of genocide. 
**** this. We're gonna fight these mother****ers.


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## Skud (Jul 15, 2015)

Same old right wing Hindu population (the whole of, including Kashmiri Pandits) and a few idiot, poor Muslims, never gets boring.


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