# fanATIcs vs NVidiots



## plasmafire (Sep 23, 2004)

1) why is it that in terms of raw power ATI cards are better, but NV cards perform better on games(cards in same price range)?
2)why do games look better on ATI cards?
3)If NV is cheating..can't ATI say so..they are not babies??let them come out with a huge AD saying so..


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## alib_i (Sep 23, 2004)

very good title for topic


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## gxsaurav (Sep 23, 2004)

Making the driver efficient by running a shader or code, is not cheating, it can be infact stated as eficiency incresing, I don't mind any compony doint it, weather NVIDIA ATI Matrox or S3, they have the rite to convert the shader in such a way that it will run best in their card

Even I don't mind enabling optimisations as long as I m getting Good quality


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## plasmafire (Sep 23, 2004)

I never said NV is cheating.. i said the opposite..(If it is..ATi shud have given proof)

Lemme see if this post makes itself a sticky.. waiting 4 ATI supporters..


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## gxsaurav (Sep 23, 2004)

ATI supporters will never come, they don't belive that ATI Is optimizing which is already proved


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## gamefreak14 (Sep 23, 2004)

> why is it that in terms of raw power ATI cards are better, but NV cards perform better on games(cards in same price range)?


Because most manufacturers support Nvidia (mostly taiwanese). Nvidia cards are lighter on the wallet for those who want a good performance to price ratio. ATI on the other hand is mad about fps without taking price into consideration. Its for those geeks who boast about 100+ fps when they forget that our eyes cannot distinguish the difference between 50 or 100 fps. They don't know and care about "persistence of vision".


> why do games look better on ATI cards?)?


Thats because ATI cards support very high FSAA by default when Nvidia has to be specifically tweaked to get the same level of FSAA. Anyway, I'm not so sure of this.


> If NV is cheating..can't ATI say so..they are not babies??let them come out with a huge AD saying so..


Thats because ATIs drivers are very buggy compared to Nvidia which are rock solid. Secondly ATI make specific optimizations for certain games in their drivers. I don't think Nvidia does that. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not an NvIdiot. I have owned 3 geforce cards(right now a geforce FX 5200). All these cards gave me good bang for the buck. If ATI could do that, I'll buy one any day. Btw, the best card to buy now is the Geforce 6800 plain at just 200$. I don't think ATI has anything in that price range.
[/quote]


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## gxsaurav (Sep 23, 2004)

taken from my other thread



> No matter how good your gfx card is, it will not draw frames higher then your Monitors refresh rate, if it is set to 85 FPS, then no matter what U do, your in game FPS will never go over 85 FPS, people don't realize & buy gfx cards based on benchmark, but they don't know that the best monitors don't go over 120 Hz, so they will get a max of 120 fps on screen no matter what



Keeping this in mind, tell me what U want, when both the card ATI or NVIDIA will work same


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## gamefreak14 (Sep 23, 2004)

GX, isn't that the case when Vsync option is enabled? I've played soldier of fortune 2 at over 100 fps..When my refresh rate is 85Hz.


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## ujjwal (Sep 23, 2004)

Very surprised to see no ATI supporters ... anyway, as far as I am concerned, I don't give a damn about ATi or nVidia (I infact wish that a lot more companies come into competition). But about graphics cards, the main thing is future proofness. A card cannot be called better if it can churn out high fps in games which would anyway run well on all current cards ... so I always hold that there is no point buying a "high-end" graphics card ever, as it anyway will not be much better than the value cards after some time.


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## crackshot (Sep 23, 2004)

certainly u can c it clearly just by comparing nVidia Geforce 6800 GT with ATi Radeon X800XT PE. The latter is about rs10000 more costly but gets beaten out in terms of performance and future proofness


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## gxsaurav (Sep 23, 2004)

Your refresh rate was 85 Hz, but that was not forced by DX, or U must be benchmarking, by default games run at 60hz, if V-Sync is disbaled only then U will get 100 fps in gameplay, doom3 is capped at 60 fps, so when playing gams I never go above 60 fps, but when benchmarking at some places I get 80 fps, in both cases 85 hz is forced


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## anidex (Sep 23, 2004)

First of all, let me clear up some things.

1. Generally, ATI cards of one class are much cheaper than their nVIDIA counterparts. It's about time to get rid of the old Indian myth that nVIDIA cards are cheaper. Eg:- The Radeon 9600 XT costs about 9000 bucks, whereas the GeForce FX 5700 Ultra costs about 14,000 bucks.

2. nVIDIA's drivers are far buggier than ATI's. The reverse was true only until the new Catalyst series. ATI's drivers these days are rock solid and much better than nVIDIA's. Plus, ATI releases new drivers every 27 days. That way you know when you'll get your new drivers to fix any remanant bugs.

3. nVIDIA has been caught with its hand in the cookie jar many times. Starting with 3DMark to the latest Doom 3, nVIDIA has done everything from app detection to introducing clipping planes (to reduce workload), from using partial precision (when asked to do otherwise) to shader replacements. This is CHEATING. nVIDIA knows it, ATI knows it, the whole world knows it. nVIDIA doesn't accept it, ATI rants on about it, nVIDIOTS deny it (without realising that they're fooling themselves) and fanATIcs enjoy pointing their fingers at it !



> they have the rite to convert the shader is such a way that it will run best in their card


Who the hell is nVIDIA or ATI to determine how a particular shader should be executed? Only the developer and the gamer have the right to determine how their gaming experience should be. Sadly, a lot of nVIDIOTs don't seem to realize this fact.


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## anidex (Sep 23, 2004)

> certainly u can c it clearly just by comparing nVidia Geforce 6800 GT with ATi Radeon X800XT PE. The latter is about rs10000 more costly but gets beaten out in terms of performance and future proofness


Unfortunately for you, the 6800 ain't futureproof at all. Despite nVIDIA's claims that the NV4x series can run 64K instructions, their current driver only supports 4096 instructions. Plus, it doesn't support fp32 filtering and blending operations, so that again isn't future proof. The NV4x series doesn't support a lot of features including programmable tessellation and higher order surfaces. In reality, despite what nVIDIA's PR claims, the NV4x is no more futureproof than ATI's R4xx series. The funny thing is that it took nVIDIA 2 years extra to get to the current level, whereas ATI did it (better) with 2 year old technology !


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## gxsaurav (Sep 23, 2004)

So U r here, again starting NVIDIA vs ATI, lets see a few thing from my last post,

1) ATI drivers are better, well U may have Cable net or broadband, but rest of 90% india is on dialup, so what is better to download, 12 MB NVIDIA driver or 75 MB ATI driver

2) Their is a big difference between cheating & optimisizng, learn it

3)a Radeon 9600 nonPro, here costs about Rs 6k, Pro version from Gigabyte costs 9.9K, while FX5700 Ultra costs about 10.8 k from MSI,now how much is the difference only Rs 600, oh! & 5700 Ultra was made to beat Radeon 9600XT, not nonPro, for that we have 5700nU

4) Tell me a bug U have seen with NVIDIA drivers, ask me a bug I have seen with ATI drivers, Catalyst 4.8 & Firefox .8/.9 no go

5) Shader replacement, well, perhaps U can explain the F buffer & Temporal filtring which is done in the games on the fly


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## anidex (Sep 23, 2004)

For once, stop talking out of your arse and start thinking with your head.

1. If you'd kindly move your butt to the ATI site, you'll see that the download is about 42 MB, if you don't have CCC. Otherwise, it's only about 26 MB. If you have a dialup connection, you can simply download the driver from the partitioned download ssection (since the control panel is already present), which is about 8 MB.

2. You learn the difference. Seem's like you're still living in that fool's paradise... !

3. Dude, the Club 3D Radeon 9600 XT (with blade_runner bought) costs only 9K. Anyway, since my Radeon 9600 PRO kicks the sh*t out of your FX 5900 XT, the FX 5700 Ultra doesn't stand a chance.

4. Why don't we start with all the cheats and replacements and stuff like that.

5. Talking out of your backside again. F-Buffer simply allows the use of longer shaders. Temporal anti-aliasing uses temporal coherence to deliver twice the quality as normal anti-aliasing with no performance hit. Basically, with 6X TFSAA, you get the quality of 12x FSAA without a performance hit. So, you're contradicting yourself !


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## tarey_g (Sep 24, 2004)

Hmmmmm ..... 8) 

*www.geocities.com/tarey_g/ativsnvidia2.jpg

*hardwareanalysis.com/images/articles/large/11077.gif

*hardwareanalysis.com/images/articles/large/11080.gif

*hardwareanalysis.com/images/articles/large/11093.gif

*hardwareanalysis.com/images/articles/large/11087.gif

*hardwareanalysis.com/images/articles/large/11091.gif


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## gamefreak14 (Sep 24, 2004)

@Anidex, first of all plz tone down your language. Getting passionate about ATI is one thing, getting angry for someone not endorsing your views is childish.
Second, you haven't got my point when I said that ATI cards don't come cheap. You are talking of high end cards such as ATI 9800 series when comparing prices. I don't think that many people in India really buy 8000+ Re cards. ATI is not interested in fulfilling the demands of the 'average' gamer. Here 'average' describes those who want to play any game in the market @ 800 X 600 res. All these years, whenever I wanted a card at below 3 grand, there was always the trusty Nvidia. I have enquired about Radeons time and again and I was told I'd have to spend around double that amount for such a card. I have to agree with you that ATI squashes Nvidia when it comes to cards which beat the  FX 5950 fair and square. But they are a niche segment. The majority of SE Asia all depend on cheaper Nvidia cards. That's why the FX 5200 series is a huge hit. That's also why theres a 'meant to be played on an Nvidia' logo on most games these days. 
I'd quoted earlier about the Geforce 6800. I don't plan to buy it @ 200$. I will buy it in around six - eight months when it goes down to 70$. I'm quite sure that like always, there won't be an ATI at that price range even then.


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## plasmafire (Sep 24, 2004)

XFX GF fx 5700 pure = rs. 7200
rad 9600 pro= rs. 9000

i fixed both these cards 2 my machine.. farcry,DX invisible war. ran better on FX with x'actly same settings(more fps)

but, the game looked much better and richer in contrast,color,edges..in radeon..

WHY?


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## icecoolz (Sep 24, 2004)

the barebone OEM of the 6800 is available at 248$ not 200.... Link here...

*www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-150-068R&depa=1


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## gxsaurav (Sep 24, 2004)

Anidex, U like Radeon, fine Keep it, we don't like it

Here in the market we have, ASUS , MSI, gIgabyte, although they all make both Radeons & GeForce, but previously they didn't support ATI, care to tell me Y, just explaing the simple marketing reason??

Oh! & the driver, look again, soon the old control panel will be discontinued, 42 MB for Driver + Control Panel, with 23 MB for .net runtime with 10 MB .net runtime 1.1 SP1 = 74 MB

This is india, many people are still happy with onboard Intel Graphics, they can't spend Rs 10k for gaming, well, U may have a lot of money to waste on a high end GFX  card, but certenly, I don't, & many of us other don't

Take a look at the above benchmarks, where is ATI winning, oh! & by the way, how many features does ATI cards support which are implemented in the games,  industry support the features NVIDIA supports, only a few games support ATI features, but they also support all the features of NVIDIA, prime example, Half Life 2, ATI's own, So X800 beats 6800 in that  (according to U), well, U said to me earlier that PS3.0 is not required as there are no games, but U do coding in DX na, tell me , if there is no hardware to make PS3.0 games, then how can the games ever come, the thing is ATI PS2.0 architecture is good, but their R500 will again fail. They are saying everyone, not to make games in PS3.0 as it is not required, they are lieing, cos they don't want games to come, which doesn't support their Hardware, & Half Life 2, even that supports PS3.0, now if NVIDIA hardwre is that bad, & PS3.0 is not required, then Y do we have, 18 games upcoming supporting PS3.0, & more are being added to this list everyday

6800 isn't future proof, well, lets see, MS has already released the DX9c , now their is only PS3.0 and ATI X800 is PS2.0, what do U think is Future proof, stick to the old technology cos ATI wants U to, take a look at the sales at newegg, if they sale 20 Gfx cards, then 15 are 6800 & 5 are X800, now U will say that all the world has gone mad, & NVIDIA is bribing them

Now coming to the Marketing part, NVIDIA is far better then ATI when it comes to marketing, ask me, I was an fanATIc like U before, I struggled a lot to get my hands on Radeon 9600 Pro from Gigabyte, I had to wait 2 months for it to come, reason, Asus, MSI, Gigabyte & all other major brands available in India, were selling NVIDIA cards only, cos they capture a big market, NVIDIA had GeForce FX 5200 non Ultra here in India for Rs 3k, which is even longhorn Certified, how many are out there who owns a killer rig, When I ordered for FX5900XT, in only 14 days, it was at my home, NVIDIA had a DX9 card for under Rs 3.5k, while for Rs 3.5 k there is no ATI card supporting DX9

& tempral antiallising, U got it all worng, I read an article ATI explaning it, basically is filter at lower AA level & then finds the diference between higher then thi s & thsi, & the calculate the difference & shows it only, now is this cheating or optimisation, 

ATI cards use non Standerd way of running a shader,  NVIDIA cards are better when it comes to AA but ATI has an edge when it comes to Anistropic filtering, I admit that, but this is only one thing better then NVIDIA while all the other 99% things are favoring NVIDIA,

In the last statement, enough of this ATI vs NVIDIA threads on this forum, Raboo close it, or ANIDEX will come to my home, Point a gun at my head & force me to buy a X800XT, even if it costs 3 times the price of my current Rig & not available, he will brake my FX just cos he don't like it, oh! & by the way, ANIDEX, U will always remain a coder, tell me what good is a product if U don't capture a market


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## gxsaurav (Sep 24, 2004)

This just in, 

ah! forget it, ANIDEX will start screaming again


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## gxsaurav (Sep 24, 2004)

Go ask any linux user which gfx card he preferes keeping in mind the availability of drivers, & support, his answer will be NVIDIA, the ATI drivers for Linux are tottly useless, 

Now U will say DX is better then OpenGl,
DX only works on Windows
Linux is a bad move from Open Source Community
Y should ATI support Linux developement in drivers when it has only  little market share compared to Windows,

Go fight with the Linux junkies here, like tuxfan or GNURag, even I like WIndows but thats because of Windows, not gfx card, it's my opinion, I don't shout on linux or tell them to use Windows, it's their will, just like it's my will to se NVIDIA

oh! ATI releases new drivers every 27 days cos they need to, NVIDIA drivers are less buggy,so they don't  need to update them everymonth, they work flowlessly 

Since U R Anti OpenGL, then U are also Anti Linux


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## plasmafire (Sep 24, 2004)

plasmafire said:
			
		

> XFX GF fx 5700 pure = rs. 7200
> rad 9600 pro= rs. 9000
> 
> i fixed both these cards 2 my machine.. farcry,DX invisible war. ran better on FX with x'actly same settings(more fps)
> ...



how come i see a lot of rant but no answers..borrowind cards was not easy..

SO ANSWER ME.....


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## gxsaurav (Sep 24, 2004)

Plasma fire

WHAT EXECTLY are U asking, ATI cards have a bit better Anis tropic filtring then nvidia so that may have made U belive that ATI gave U better image quality, but it was sharper then NVIDIA not clear


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## plasmafire (Sep 24, 2004)

THE EDGES.. THEY WERE MORE JAGGED in nv


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## gxsaurav (Sep 24, 2004)

Maybe U were playing with AA disabled in NV case,


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## plasmafire (Sep 24, 2004)

i'm not a noob. i'm..well.. a techie.

2x aa,2x aniso in both cases


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## ujjwal (Sep 24, 2004)

I would like an answer to that as well ... why do radeon's have better image quality? Any reason?

BTW, gx, ATi drivers for linux do exist and I have a friend who uses ATi 3D acceleration in linux (OpenGL) without any problem ...

And why all this fighting? Use what is better for your purpose, regardless of the company.


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## nikhilesh (Sep 24, 2004)

this has turned out to be very informative.


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## gxsaurav (Sep 24, 2004)

ATI drivers for Linux do exist, i know, but they are nothingt compared to NVIDIA, I started a thread on Anandtech, to find what the US guys think about getting, ATI or NVIDIA when it comes to Linux go here to check it, & then tell me, those guys have NVIDIA & ATI both availabel & for cheap


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## NikhilVerma (Sep 24, 2004)

nikhilesh said:
			
		

> this has turned out to be very informative.




YEAH...
And for the first time I would like to say ...

Keep fighting guys!!!


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## anidex (Sep 24, 2004)

> @Anidex, first of all plz tone down your language. Getting passionate about ATI is one thing, getting angry for someone not endorsing your views is childish.


Dude, the problem with gxsaurav is that he doesn't respect anybody else's views and rants on without thinking. He's been doing it for a while now and that's bothering the hell outta me.



> Your comparison skills are all crap, U are comparing a 9800 Pro with FX5700 Ultra...


What nonsense are you talking? I was comparing the price of the Radeon 9600 XT, which happens to be much lesser than that of the GeForce FX 5700 Ultra.



> Take a look at the above benchmarks, where is ATI winning, oh


You're comparing the GeForce 6800 Ultra with the 9800 XT ! Now who's the idiot ?



> but their R500 will again fail


Sorry to break it to you buddy, but the R520 supports just about every feature called for by the DX9c specifications, including fp32 filtering and blending and adaptive tessellation. nVIDIA should catch up with the R520 in about... 20 years !



> Now coming to the Marketing part, NVIDIA is far better then ATI when it comes to marketing


Sure nVIDIA is better at Marketting. But that's the problem! If they put the same effort into making cards, they'd beat ATI hands down  (or perhaps not)!



> struggled a lot to get my hands on Radeon 9600 Pro from Gigabyte, I had to wait 2 months for it to come


Funny, cause I got my card within 3 days of ordering ! Now I wonder why... ?



> NVIDIA had a DX9 card for under Rs 3.5k


Sure they do. Only problem is that it runs slower than their last-last-generation product!

As far as temporal anti-aliasing is concerned, you haven't understood anything about it... nVIDIOT (doh) !



> ATI cards use non Standerd way of running a shader


Yeah sure, when the whole world knows that nVIDIA is doing shader replacements and ATI runs them like they're supposed to, Einstein here hypothesizes the other way around !



> In the last statement, enough of this ATI vs NVIDIA threads on this forum, Raboo close it, or ANIDEX will come to my home, Point a gun at my head & force me to buy a X800XT, even if it costs 3 times the price of my current Rig & not available


Is that supposed to be funny? OK, let me try tickling myself... maybe I'll laugh then... !


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## anidex (Sep 24, 2004)

> Since U R Anti OpenGL, then U are also Anti Linux


That's like saying "since you're an idiot, and since all humans have supposedly evolved from one single ancestor, all humans are idiots". Stop talking like a moron. Just because I think OpenGL stinks, doesn't mean I hate Linux, infact I like Linux to a certain extent.


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## anidex (Sep 24, 2004)

> ATI releases new drivers every 27 days cos they need to, NVIDIA drivers are less buggy,so they don't need to update them everymonth


Or perhaps nVIDIA needs too much time to incorporate all their shader replacements... one thousand shaders per game, and a 100 such games on the market... that means that the nVIDIA boys write 100,000 replacement shaders... and that takes a lot of time !


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## anidex (Sep 24, 2004)

> why do radeon's have better image quality? Any reason?


Cause nVIDIA generally shifts to partial precision (16-bit) to get decent framerates, whereas ATI runs all shading calculations at 24-bit precision. That along with shader replacements leads to the overall degradation in the quality. Not to speak of ATI's superior anti-aliasing and anisotropic filtering capabilities !


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## crusader77 (Sep 24, 2004)

> nikhilesh wrote:
> this has turned out to be very informative.


hehe, just what i was bout to say.. 

But guys just chill...


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## anidex (Sep 24, 2004)

HeHeHe... yeah, gotta chill out... ! Just that this chap denies the evidence, that ATI is currently doing better than nVIDIA, even after it's been tatooed onto his eyeballs !


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## gxsaurav (Sep 24, 2004)

U R back, well, I won't comment if I do, then this battle will continue & I want to end this


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## gamefreak14 (Sep 25, 2004)

anidex said:
			
		

> Not to speak of ATI's superior anti-aliasing and anisotropic filtering capabilities !


Superior...eh? Now how would FSAA and AF differ in quality on both cards? And why is it superior from that of nvidias? Care to enlighten me?
Btw, everyone!*This is not a fight. It's simply an argument.* GX, you are starting to sound like an (NV)Idiot...just kidding


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## netcracker (Sep 25, 2004)

yeah,why is anidex & gxsaurav fighting.Let us make a healthy discussion here.This is realy informative.


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## plasmafire (Sep 25, 2004)

hmm.. if someone could provide proof .. in tech terms..asto how ATI does better AA and ANISO..xcept for the fact that the pic looks good on ATI..

16 bit..maybe thatz the key..Futuremark did say something abt this..but wa hushed up..any future mark scores..on two similar cards..

number of pipes on ATI seems to be less..?? 

letz argue..not fight..after all itz not my baap's company..just his money i use to buy the card..lol

and compare 9600 with 5600,5700(le,pe) not 5900(9800 is there 4 that)

NV drivers are optimised..for a SPECIFIC game.. now just what the optimisations do, i'm not clear.


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## gxsaurav (Sep 25, 2004)

I don't think nv games are optmized for a single game, if that is so they I don't we see bugs with NV drivers with new games


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## plasmafire (Sep 25, 2004)

trust me they are.. and the game runs pathetically if u don't apply those settings.


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## i.am_mayur (Sep 25, 2004)

*too much crap*

[Edit : Batty] No Personal Attacks

I dont thnk even half of the crap u say matters at all . Both Nvidia and ATI are multi billion $ cos and it would u guyz take more than a lifetime to get there ... leave alone even think abt their products and marketing strategies

I know every1's entitled to their opinion but this is too much man . 

[Edit : Batty] No Personal Attacks


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## nikhilesh (Sep 25, 2004)

hey mayur wth is ur problem?first u say that AMD sux and then this.....
so what if they r multimillion dollar companies?

wont u buy good clothes even if they r made by mutimillion dollar companies?or just bcoz they r multimillion dollar companies u'll run naked on the streets?


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## plasmafire (Sep 25, 2004)

listen dude.. i dunno abt others,..but mayur i'm very much a techie and understand what i say..

NV and ATI were started and headed by one guy.. guys like one of us who has the balls 2 question the world.. if u think forums are useless.. maybe u shouldn't engage in them.. maybe u shud take up nudism.. even u cud do that..

I hate it when ppl barge into an argument..i am reminded of ppl who said games were a waste of time and nobody serious would be involved in them.

i'm a IT prof. i have "read" mags, rfc's, red books, sm specs.. for 7 years.. i am no expert, but letz c u prove ur mettle.

[Edit : Batty] No Personal Attacks


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## plasmafire (Sep 25, 2004)

the idea is to tell guyz who just wanna play games, which co. card 2 purchase.. and why..

btw.. i wud have been happier if there were more than 2 giants..anybody wanna start a new GFX co.??


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## theraven (Sep 25, 2004)

relax guys .. the better way is to report a nuiscance ..
@plasmafire ... dude i only suggest u edit ur post for the ... umm .. unusual words... before the mods see it


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## gxsaurav (Sep 25, 2004)

In the bussiness market, more componies means more compotition, which lowers the price while providing better product then previously avilable, look at  the Sound Card market, we only have one dominent copmpony, Creative, they suckd Aureal bankrupt, now only VIA Envy24 chip & giving them some compotition, in Movies & Music, while being cheap &  providing good drivers, we need more players in the market

Mayur, well, it depends on U, but it's the customar who give their review of the product, depending on which the compony further makes improvement to their product, for this forums are a better place


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## plasmafire (Sep 25, 2004)

thx @raven..lol.. got kinda carried away..forgot..ppl here are usually customers or subscribers of the forum's propreiters..

yep aureal was a real good baby..still remember the pseudo 4.1 they manufd.


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## anidex (Sep 25, 2004)

Mayur, if you don't like the forums, get the "fish" out of here.

Hmm... now that we've gotten that out of the way...



> and compare 9600 with 5600,5700(le,pe) not 5900(9800 is there 4 that)


Actually, the Radeon 9600 outperforms even the GeForce FX 5900 Ultra when taking DX9 into consideration.



> NV drivers are optimised..for a SPECIFIC game.. now just what the optimisations do, i'm not clear.


Oh yes. They're absolutely optimized for every game out there! Most of the optimizations involve running partial precision shaders and replacement shaders that reduce workload to atleast half. Hope you got what I meant .


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## plasmafire (Sep 25, 2004)

9600(non pro) gave me framerate issues with farcry, doom3.. 5700,5900 did not..

but game looks rocked on 9600...heavenly on 9800..


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## Wizard (Sep 25, 2004)

alib_i said:
			
		

> very good title for topic



* Yea ..I agree ...*

Anywyz...I got Nvidia Card...so it is better

Over and Out


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## Raaabo (Sep 26, 2004)

NO PERSONAL ATACKS | NO BAD LANGUAGE

*Serious Warning:* If by 10 PM Sunday 26th September, every little cuss word and personal attack isn't edited out by the author of each post, the author will earn a 1 month ban. Simple as that!

Argue till you're blue in the face for all I care, just do it without calling each other names and using swear words.  

*Batty: Don't edit anything, let them do it themselves or be banned! They will learn to correct their mistakes themselves!*


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## gxsaurav (Sep 26, 2004)

I have edited everything , I found bad


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## anidex (Sep 26, 2004)

> Anywyz...I got Nvidia Card...so it is better


That's dumb. That's like claiming that, if you have a Pentium 2, it's better than someone else's Athlon FX 53 !


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## crackshot (Sep 26, 2004)

nVIDIA wins the battle everywhere be it Motherboard chipsets or GFX cards.
ATi ones are also good but 6800 or 6600 based cards will easily eat out X800 or X700 based cracds.

Reason better support in both hardware and software. nVidia puts update's quickly online. That's a different thing that broadband iNet is still a dream 4 INdia whereas in other countries its outdated.
Its something like AMD(=nVidia) wins over INTEL(=ATi). But don't intel was once the ruler of DESKTOP in performance and numbers as well same is the case with ATi. when it newly launched Radeon despite the tough competition of GeForce Series, it churned not only higher FPS but also quality. 

It's jst the matter of time.


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## anidex (Sep 26, 2004)

Hmm... yeah sure... In case you didn't know, nVIDIA's "new" architecture has been inherited from the GeForce FX series. Plus, nVIDIA is governed by PR whereas ATI is guided by true willingness to improve.

Result: nVIDIA = Intel. ATI = AMD.


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## gr8prash (Sep 26, 2004)

4Get it ANIDEX it semms u r ATi DIe HaRd FaN.
But the scores speak dude current winner is nVidia(=Undertaker) wheras ATi(=JBL)

JBL means JUST A BIG LOSER


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## anidex (Sep 26, 2004)

Oh sure, would you kindly get to the thread "The GRAPHICS CARDS List" and see how every nVIDIA card is getting owned! I'm an ATI fan only because they're better. If nVIDIA truly gets ahead of them anytime in the future and stops cheating, I'd obviously support them. That's because I'm a CUSTOMER, and you look like an nVIDIOT to me .


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## crusader77 (Sep 26, 2004)

> 4Get it ANIDEX it semms u r ATi DIe HaRd FaN.



dude, "READ"  the entire thread,, he's not just a fan, there are enough reasons and explanations and proofs alrite... he knows what he is talkin about .. ok?
Also, i think we should end this here, i think everything under this topic has been covered; )


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## anidex (Sep 26, 2004)

Thanks for your support Cru .


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## gxsaurav (Sep 26, 2004)

I don't have the source code of your app, so I can't say it is not optmised for Radeons


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## plasmafire (Sep 26, 2004)

ok u can have the src code..i think..

well aren't u the guy who photoshopped the FPS and name o ur card.. ooh i remembr u now...

@mods well i believe the warning and editing was needed..but banning.. lol looks like POTA 2 me..and to ur PAYING customers too??

well i'm getting me a 9800 pro fm my nxt month's salary.. 

NVidia=poor man's choice coz it runs games..playable..but 16 bit precision,so more fps..abt 7-8k
ATI= runs games fully..with all 24 bits of glory..buy if u got money 4 a really fast card..abt 10k


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## it_waaznt_me (Sep 26, 2004)

Raaabo said:
			
		

> NO PERSONAL ATACKS | NO BAD LANGUAGE
> 
> *Batty: Don't edit anything, let them do it themselves or be banned! They will learn to correct their mistakes themselves!*



Ok .. I got it .. But can I issue warnings ...?


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## gamefreak14 (Sep 26, 2004)

crackshot said:
			
		

> nVIDIA wins the battle everywhere be it Motherboard chipsets or GFX cards.
> ATi ones are also good but 6800 or 6600 based cards will easily eat out X800 or X700 based cracds.
> 
> Reason better support in both hardware and software. nVidia puts update's quickly online. That's a different thing that broadband iNet is still a dream 4 INdia whereas in other countries its outdated.
> ...



Good....finally! i hope we've wrapped up this discussion...I mean argument.


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## gxsaurav (Sep 26, 2004)

go here, now anidex is claming that nvidia & FM are cheating, how the hell, look at the links I gave below, XBIT labs has proved & publically ATI has stated that *they are also doing optimisations*

Now he will say that MS, NVIDIA & FM are all working together against the FanATIcs

the same old saying

Angur khette hain


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## anidex (Sep 26, 2004)

> I don't have the source code of your app, so I can't say it is not optmised for Radeons


Firstly, there is no such thing as optimising for the Radeon cards because :-

1. I've used DirectX (unlike your stinky OpenGL, it's a standard spec) and all shaders are written for shader model 2.0 specs.
2. Radeon cards run all shaders at 24 bit fp precision, unlike the FX cards that slyly shift to 16-bit precision.

Secondly, it is kind of open source. The shader file is included along with the app.

Thirdly, everyone knows that you reduced the geometry count of the scene and perhaps changed all the float variables to half variables to improve performance and further edited your dismal scores with Photoshop to show something decent. So, you really can't point a finger.


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## gxsaurav (Sep 26, 2004)

if FX cards revart to 16-bit presicion, then I should have got better performance then Radeon


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## blade_runner (Sep 26, 2004)

Wow ! i missed out on some major debating................ hey u guys gonna continue .......so i can bring out my popcorn !!


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## anidex (Sep 26, 2004)

> if FX cards revart to 16-bit presicion, then I should have got better performance then Radeon


In case you forgot, the old Half-Life 2 benchmarks revealed that the GeForce FX 5900 Ultra barely caught up with the Radeon 9600 PRO even when using partial precision shaders and got completely owned at full precision. What's your point?

*tech-report.com/etc/2003q3/hl2bench/index.x?pg=2


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## plasmafire (Sep 26, 2004)

i get it..b4 the detonator drivers are released for a game,..NVidia perf.. sux in that game..  suddenly with release of newer drivers,.. there is a perf boost in the game..

the perf boost is by reducing quality of the game....

hey i'm enlightened..btw..i have a FX5700 pure.. will sell after 3'oct..any takers??


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## plasmafire (Sep 26, 2004)

thanx 4 the link GX..

Quote: anidex Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:48 pm

In our testing, all identified detection mechanisms stopped working when we altered the 
benchmark code just trivially and without changing any of the actual benchmark workload. With 
this altered benchmark, NVIDIAâ€™s certain products had a performance drop of as much as 
24.1% while competitionâ€™s products performance drop stayed within the margin of error of 3%. 

Arenâ€™t These Cheats Just Optimizations That Also Benefit General Game Play 
Performance? 
No. There are two reasons. 
Firstly, these driver cheats increase benchmark performance at the expense of image quality. 
Only the user and the game developer should decide how a game is meant to be experienced, 
and not the hardware developer. An act by hardware developer to force a different experience 
than the developer or the user intended, is an act that may mislead consumers, the OEMs and the 
media who look to our benchmark to help them make purchase decisions. 
Secondly, in well-designed benchmarks like 3DMark03, all cards are instructed to do the same 
amount of work. Artificially reducing one cardâ€™s workload, for example, by using pre-set clip planes 
or using a lower precision shader against the programâ€™s instructions, is only aimed to artificially 
manipulate the benchmark test result. Please note, that the cheating described here is totally 
different from optimization. Optimizing the driver code to increase efficiency is a technique often 
used to enhance game performance and carries greater legitimacy, since the rendered image is 
exactly what the developer intended. 

What Are The Identified Cheats? 

1. The loading screen of the 3DMark03 test is detected by the driver. This is used by the driver 
to disregard the back buffer clear command that 3DMark03 gives. This incorrectly reduces the 
workload. However, if the loading screen is rendered in a different manner, the driver seems 
to fail to detect 3DMark03, and performs the back buffer clear command as instructed. 
2. A vertex shader used in game test 2 (P_Pointsprite.vsh) is detected by the driver. In this case 
the driver uses instructions contained in the driver to determine when to obey the back buffer 
clear command and when not to. If the back buffer would not be cleared at all in game test 2, 
the stars in the view of outer space in some cameras would appear smeared as have been 
reported in the articles mentioned earlier. Back buffer clearing is turned off and on again so 
that the back buffer is cleared only when the default benchmark cameras show outer space. 
In free camera mode one can keep the camera outside the spaceship through the entire test, 
and see how the sky smearing is turned on and off. 
3. A vertex shader used in game test 4 (M_HDRsky.vsh) is detected. In this case the driver adds 
two static clipping planes to reduce the workload. The clipping planes are placed so that the 
sky is cut out just beyond what is visible in the default camera angles. Again, using the free 
camera one can look at the sky to see it abruptly cut off. Screenshot of this view was also 
reported in the ExtremeTech and Beyond3D articles. This cheat was introduced in the 43.51 
drivers as far as we know. 
4. In game test 4, the water pixel shader (M_Water.psh) is detected. The driver uses this 
detection to artificially achieve a large performance boost - more than doubling the early 
frame rate on some systems. In our inspection we noticed a difference in the rendering when 
compared either to the DirectX reference rasterizer or to those of other hardware. It appears 
the water shader is being totally discarded and replaced with an alternative more efficient 
shader implemented in the drivers themselves. The drivers produce a similar looking 
rendering, but not an identical one. 
5. In game test 4 there is detection of a pixel shader (m_HDRSky.psh). Again it appears the 
shader is being totally discarded and replaced with an alternative more efficient shader in a 
similar fashion to the water pixel shader above. The rendering looks similar, but it is not 
identical. 
6. A vertex shader (G_MetalCubeLit.vsh) is detected in game test 1. Preventing this detection 
proved to reduce the frame rate with these drivers, but we have not yet determined the cause. 
7. A vertex shader in game test 3 (G_PaintBaked.vsh) is detected, and preventing this detection 
drops the scores with these drivers. This cheat causes the back buffer clearing to be 
disregarded; we are not yet aware of any other cheats. 
8. The vertex and pixel shaders used in the 3DMark03 feature tests are also detected by the 
driver. When we prevented this detection, the performance dropped by more than a factor of 
two in the 2.0 pixel shader test. 

What Is the Performance Difference Due to These Cheats? 
A test system with GeForceFX 5900 Ultra and the 44.03 drivers gets 5806 3DMarks with 
3DMark03 build 320. 
The new build 330 of 3DMark03 in which 44.03 drivers cannot identify 3DMark03 or the tests in 
that build gets 4679 3DMarks â€“ a 24.1% drop. 

What Happens Now? 
When 3DMark03 is altered slightly, NVIDIA drivers do not recognize 3DMark03 anymore, and the 
performance drops. The same slightly altered 3DMark03 version can be run on other hardware 
and the results remains the same.


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## theraven (Sep 26, 2004)

it_waaznt_me said:
			
		

> Raaabo said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and i quote Raabo when i say this 


> and remember guys ... a warning from a member is also considered as a warnin


tho this is really gettin outta hand and spreadin to other topics as well


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## AlphaOmega (Sep 27, 2004)

Man, I really donâ€™t get people who swear by certain companies and brands no matter what, be it Intel vs. AMD or (as in this case), nVIDIA vs. ATI.

What you guys (the ones fighting) donâ€™t realize is that any two companies in competition will invariably gain and lose the top spot. We have seen it happen over and over again. It is more apparent in the hardware industry because of their incredibly small product cycles.

Take the example of Intel and AMD. Intel was unchallenged till the time of P3. The P3 was a good product; however it was beaten by Athlon. In the next generation, the P4 (I am not considering the Willamette, only the Northwood) proved to be superior (at least in most benchmarks) than the Athlon XP. The again, in the current generation, AMD FX 64 kicks the Prescottâ€™s @$$.

Similarly, in the graphics industry, nVIDIA was totally unchallenged up till the time of the GeForce4 Ti (despite some competition from the Radeon 8500). Then it got complacent, and ATI was able to steal its thunder with the Radeon 9700. Due to nVIDIA resting on its laurels, their FX chip was unable to beat the Radeon 9xxx series (except FX 5200 vs. 9200). Now the 6800 chip beats the X800 chip in almost all tests (as proven by multiple sites). In fact, the X600 is nothing more than an updated version of the 9600 chip.

My point is that no company can dish out market leading products for long, because the other guys are not fools. The necessity of survival dictates that they will try their best to make their next product better than the other company's. A man fights best when he is backed into a corner.

If you consider pure performance, I think it would be foolish to deny that the Radeon 9xxx series is superior to the FX series in every market segment, especially when pixel shader performance was concerned. nVIDIA cards were and are better at OpenGL than ATI cards. While nVIDIA does offer some innovative AA techniques (like Quincunx), ATIâ€™s renderer does not take as big a hit as nVIDIAâ€™s when AA is turned on.

All this has changed with the release of NV40. This core is far superior to anything in the market. While the X800 is a really powerful card, it canâ€™t touch the 6800, with regards to both, raw power and feature set. If you want numbers go over to *www.thetechlounge.com/review.php?directory=xfx_geforce_6800_gt_256&page=6 for Doom3 card comparison or to *www.thetechlounge.com/review.php?directory=xfx_geforce_6800_gt_256&page=7 for HL2 (Counter-Strike: Source) card comparison.

Anidex, while the 9600 is a good card, it is not comparable to a 5900. It is the best card in the mid range segment, beating the 5600 and 5700. Saying that the PS 3.0 is not relevant because no games are coming of it is wrong. When buying anything new, it is wise to look at today and tomorrow. Anyway, there are games available which support PS 3.0 today, like Far Cry (with patch 1.2). Also, nVIDIA drivers are superior to ATIâ€™s. OpenGL is not cr@p. In fact, the almighty Carmack endorses it! DX and OpenGL both have their advantages and disadvangates.

ATI does not have as strong a market presence as nVIDIA, especially in India. Ditto with AMD. People will buy a brand with higher visibility, regardless of performance and/or price. Thatâ€™s why you will find more FX cards than Radeon 9xxx (despite the latter being superior).

nVIDIA has been cheating in the FX drivers (53 to 56), like in 3DMark03. The guys at Future mark not only confirmed it, they even released a new build to counter this problem. nVIDIA also cheated with Far Cry. The FX cards got a significant FPS drop if you renamed the FarCry.exe file to something else. This was wrong of nVIDIA. However, ATI cheated with Quake III benchmarks, dropping the quality slightly to get a FPS boost. I donâ€™t fully remember what happened, but it had to do with Radeon 8500 (I think).
NOTE: there have been no report of either nVIDIA or ATI cheating with their new cards. 

Moreover, almost the entire industry agrees that the 6800 is faster and better than the X800 (excluding certain cases e.g. Battlefield: Vietnam).


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## tarey_g (Sep 27, 2004)

take a look at this .......... 


*www.nvnews.net/images/news/200405/comparison.png


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## tarey_g (Sep 27, 2004)

what the ...........**** is going on!!!!!!!!!



*www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/locked.gif



****=hell


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## gxsaurav (Sep 27, 2004)

Look for yourself, AlphaOmega saying are true, no compony can donminate the market for long, it was ATI now it's NVIDIA but fanATIcs don't admit, while I admitd that FX cards don't have good performance to comparable radeons

What I hate in ANIDEX , is that he says, OpenGL is dead for gaming, it is useless & bad, & nvidia is the *only one* doing cheating & shader optimisation, as I said earlier,it doesn't matter shader replacement ot optimisation, as long as I get good quality I will enable them, I don't mind*optimizing* my GFX Card & core.


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## gxsaurav (Sep 27, 2004)

Yaar U R a coder, everybody isn't U know what is the difference between real Trilinear Filtring & Billiner, 16-bit or 32-bit, every doesn't.

NVIDIA FX series support both 32-bit & 16-bit precision while ATI only supports 24-BIt, NVIDIA does 32-bit every where, but does 16-bit insted of 32-bit if 32-bit is not reallt required somewhere


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## gxsaurav (Sep 27, 2004)

Where is ANIDEX now, I think underground, it's hard to belive for him that ATI is also doing it, well he will soon come back & say me, @~$3#S@ & all things like that

oh! & NVIDIOT too


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## blade_runner (Sep 27, 2004)

Hey guys here some more news ........apparently Nvidia is also making .net drivers !! 

Source: *www.theinquirer.net/?article=18684


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## gxsaurav (Sep 27, 2004)

Old news, it's a requirment for Longhorn, not for XP, there is no need or requirment of making .net based drivers for Windows XP, but U can still make the drivers just to make it flashy

One more thing, drivers can't be made in .net, they are made in C, only the interface model with the user is made in .net, the real drivers is made in C

However with longhorn, may be the kernal mode drivers can be made in .net

Don't worry, we won't 42 MB Drivers from NVIDIA any time for 2 years


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## blade_runner (Sep 27, 2004)

Obviously thats what i meant and oh btw a news article on 26th sept and thats only a day b4 doesnt qualify for old news. Things is u got so much smart talk filled inside ur brain that u dont realise the obvious. But then ur snobbish behaviour is evident frm ur posts scattered all over the forums.


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## AlphaOmega (Sep 28, 2004)

Oh ya! One more thing. I remember there were reports that the Radeon was cheating in Aquamark 3. Some testers reported that a few dx9 shader effects in some scenes were missing. The FX were showing them. But, the Radeon scenes were identical to those appearing on dx8 (PS 1.3) cards. It seems that Radeon was ignoring the dx9 specific instructions and shifting to dx8 shaders.

So, it seems that no company are above manipulating the benchmarks to protect themselves, though I don't think the Radeon needed to resort to these underhand techniques, as its hardware was superior.


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## gxsaurav (Sep 28, 2004)

blade_runner said:
			
		

> Obviously thats what i meant and oh btw a news article on 26th sept and thats only a day b4 doesnt qualify for old news. Things is u got so much smart talk filled inside ur brain that u dont realise the obvious. But then ur snobbish behaviour is evident frm ur posts scattered all over the forums.




Watch your mouth young man, I never meant Old news in date sence, I meant that it was evident from last years WinHEC when MS clearly said that drivers has to be made in .net, due to which ATI came with VPU recoverer & NVIDIA came with some thing like this for FX cards, the refresh 5700, & 5900, cos recovering the GPU is a must have feature in Longhorn compatible drivers


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## gxsaurav (Sep 28, 2004)

I remember that too AlphaOmega, I heard that previously, forgot to mention, Well, we again have provre that ATI have been cheating in past


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## AlphaOmega (Sep 28, 2004)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Watch your mouth young man



"young man"!!??!!?

Just how old are you gx?  

This is something that I expect an old geezer to say!!


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## AlphaOmega (Sep 28, 2004)

Optimization of a driver for a certain game is exceptable, even expected. Both ATI and nVIDIA released drivers optimized for doom3. These are done so that the hardware can be made to take best advantage of a certain game's behaviour. But when a company purposefully drops quality or excludes features to get ahead in specific software (and where the performance enhancement does not benefit anything else), that's cheating.
So, nVIDIA cheats, ATI cheats, everyone cheats. Its a dog eat dog world, and no one is a saint.


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## gxsaurav (Sep 28, 2004)

Opps sorry, missed that

Really, it's a world of folowers, U claim that NVIDIA is cheating, well someday even U will do that, it's called Optimisation


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## blade_runner (Sep 28, 2004)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> blade_runner said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Haaahaha ! LOL ........u seem to sound like a 60 year old. And between what MS says and the time taken to implement it in actuality is a lot of time. But neways this is a never ending debate......and i have made up my mind to watch it frm a distance. Some1 else started this thread and then vanished and u guys here are fighting like nethng.


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## plasmafire (Sep 28, 2004)

Yo blade i'm still here.. 

if u c the posts, u'll know that i'd never left.. but when ppl fight instead of arguing..even ignoring my queries, i get a bit boozeled. i am watching this thread.. hoping it gets outta fighting..

i got a 5700.. but Anidex's posts and links.. his scientific ways of supporting arguments and not endlessly ranting like other, have convinced me 2 get a 9800pro... i tried 2 end the fight too.. but no use.

technologically, ATI is better.. more powerful hardware.
for the budget buyer, Nv is better, coz better framerate.. not as good quality.

hope this ends soon.(never thot i'd say this abt my own post)


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## amitsaudy (Sep 28, 2004)

MAAAAAN
This thread has gone into its 7 th page soo sooon.


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## AlphaOmega (Sep 29, 2004)

Hey plasmafire, the ATI radeon cards give both, better framerates and quality, compared to the FX. Congrats, on getting the 9800Pro (try XT, it's even better)


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## tarey_g (Sep 29, 2004)

yes im also planning to purchase a 5900 ulta or 9800 XT . 9800XT most probably 8)


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## gxsaurav (Sep 29, 2004)

For all the ATI Users & ANIDEX

NVIDIA released 61.77 drivers in July 27, they were Doom3 ready, no compleately, Still they provided Doom3 the performance needed on FX & 6xxx cards, I played Doom3 already 1 month, with a lot of quality & fps

Now, ATI still hasen't released a compatible driver for Doom3 which gives good performance, they released their catalyst 4.9 drivers in a hurry, I don't consider beta drivers worth,  but still it didn't gave that much performance, THEY OPTIMISED THEIR DRIVERS FOR DOOM3,, they incorporated the humus tweak in Catalyst AI & they are saying that publically

So, who says ATI drivers are better, releasing drivers every 27 days isn't worth if U can't release drivers compatible with one of the hottest games arround after 2 months of it's release


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## gxsaurav (Sep 29, 2004)

& now ANIDEX will say that Doom3 is not worth playing cos it is OpenGL & NVIDIA


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## blade_runner (Sep 29, 2004)

plasmafire said:
			
		

> Yo blade i'm still here..



Nuthin personal plasmafire, but u see this isnt the fisrt of a kind thread. There was a thread like this earlier where a similar argument broke out. Neways i believe consumer is king......and he shud be the one to decide who deserves his money better ATi or Nvidia.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> For all the ATI Users & ANIDEX
> 
> NVIDIA released 61.77 drivers in July 27, they were Doom3 ready, no compleately, Still they provided Doom3 the performance needed on FX & 6xxx cards, I played Doom3 already 1 month, with a lot of quality & fps



Dude if u know the 61.77 drivers are not WHQL certified at all. While all the ATI's drivers released are WHQL certified !


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## gxsaurav (Sep 29, 2004)

who cares for WHQL, what difference doed it make blade

Besides 61.77 are just an upgrade for DX9c compatibility, Doom3 requirs DirectX 9b, so if U have DX9b, 61.76 which were WHQL, then U are good to go, I m using 66.31 Beta & Non WHQL, I m getting higher performance in anything DirectX then before, what U say for that

How many drivers U have installed which are not WHQL certified, does it matter just  a logo, nothing else, I have never seen any difference with this.


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## plasmafire (Sep 29, 2004)

wht diff does WHQL make?? my eyes are as wide as saucepans..

i am into CMMI satisfaction 4 our co. DUDE..WHQL..is HUGE...u cannot even estimate the work that goes into getting aWHQL..it takes minimum of 25 man months 4 experts with10-15 yrs exp to make a product WHQL..

plzz read up on MS page asto what WHQL satisfies...

MS may not be ev'body's fav co.  but it has given a lot 2 s/w ind...teh quality standards being one of them..

@Blade.. no offence taken at all..maybe it'd b bettr if we fought in one place rather than all over forum...lol..hence this post..


does a driver have to be READY for a game?? plzz define READY


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## AlphaOmega (Sep 29, 2004)

WHQL was created to ensure that some lame drivers from an unheard of manufacturer didn't muck up your windows system. If a driver is WHQL certified you can be sure that it is trustworthy (at least relatively). When dealing with large compaines like nVIDIA and ATI, WHQL is not as important.
I am not ignoring WHQL's usefulness, but I have yet to see a driver from nVIDIA that causes my system to go haywire.
GX, as I said earlier, optimization is acceptable. A GPU manufacturer has the right to release a driver that works better with a certain game, as long as those drivers don't compromise on the quality in order to get a performance boost. So in my book, ATI did not 'cheat' with the tweak.
Also, it is widely accepted that nVIDIA drivers are better than their ATI counterparts. The frequency of release is unimportant. A good dirver should give a performance and/or quality boost, or at least do away with certain problems. The biggest problem that people have with ATI Radeons is the problems they face with driver incompatibility. Check the readme of any game. Most games have more content dealing with the problems faced with ATI cards. nVIDIA does enjoy better compatibility with a maximum number of games, despite often not sticking with established standards.


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## AlphaOmega (Sep 30, 2004)

Whoa, guys. Anyone who read my last post before I edited it (the one where I accidently wrote "I am ignoring WHQL's usefulness") please see that I meant to write "I am not ignoring WHQL's usefulness". This is what I edited, as it changed the entire meaning of my post.


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## tarey_g (Sep 30, 2004)

alphaomega said:
			
		

> The biggest problem that people have with ATI Radeons is the problems they face with drivers incompatibility they face. Check the readme of any game. Most games have more content dealing with the problems faced with ATI cards.



true. the readme of most of the games report issues encounterd in case of ati cards . thats why i like nvidia which is optimising its drivers accordingly . im using the 65.73 whql certified drivers , i'll complete the download of 66.31 beta drivers today and start using it , if there is any problem i'll revert back on 65.73.


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## gr8prash (Sep 30, 2004)

anidex do u know recently nVidia gave the proof of failure of ati GFX PCI-E chipsets. u can see them at  *www.xbitlabs.com


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## gxsaurav (Sep 30, 2004)

ATI PCI-E is useless, X300 is a joke, even a Intel GMA900 is better, besides PC-E is wastage for now, maybe in the future it is good

I m using 66.31, they are WHQL, but with the modded inf them become non-whql, & my performance in far cry & doom3 is up, with slight loss in 3dmark03, 3980 from 4108, fasr is again smoother then ever, keeping these


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## i.am_mayur (Sep 30, 2004)

if u guys want to post so many useless messages why dont u use ur IM's instead of flooding this FORUM ????

By the way alpha beta omega .. whatever if u feel ur sys config is outta this world u r sorely mistaken man. . .


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## AlphaOmega (Sep 30, 2004)

i.am_mayur said:
			
		

> if u guys want to post so many useless messages why dont u use ur IM's instead of flooding this FORUM ????
> 
> By the way alpha beta omega .. whatever if u feel ur sys config is outta this world u r sorely mistaken man. . .



When did I ever say that my "sys config is outta this world"? Other people have a P-III with i810 mentioned in their signatures. I only posted my config so that I don't have to type it out over and over again whenever I mention anything performance related.

Also, I suggest you be less free with the word "useless". Useless by your point of view, maybe. But the people here are trying to discuss, even argue, about their views. So who are you to say they are useless? If you really do find these posts useless then _go away_. No one is forcing you to stay or read.


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## AlphaOmega (Oct 1, 2004)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> ATI PCI-E is useless, X300 is a joke, even a Intel GMA900 is better, besides PC-E is wastage for now, maybe in the future it is good



You are right GX, even the X600 is a joke. It is simply an enhanced version of the 9600 chip. What's more it is not much faster than a 9600XT (at least in current benchmarks and games). Reminds me of the time nVIDIA pulled the GeForce4 MX trick. Now, ATI is trying to fool buyers with its old wine with new label.
For scores that prove what I am saying go over to *www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1628&page=3

Currently, there is very little difference (if any) between  AGP cards and their PCI-E counterparts. Performance advantage will become apparent when GPUs that can actually use the bandwidth arrive. This won't happen at least for another 6 months.


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## tarey_g (Oct 1, 2004)

i.am_mayur said:
			
		

> if u guys want to post so many useless messages why dont u use ur IM's instead of flooding this FORUM ????
> 
> By the way alpha beta omega .. whatever if u feel ur sys config is outta this world u r sorely mistaken man. . .



mayur seems like u cannot think beyond that. shows ur sense  is limited to judging things in pathetic way. the siggy of alphaomega and of  me are only to help ourselves and the other people in this forum so we do not have to specify the config again and again in the hardware related and other relevant articles.


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## blade_runner (Oct 1, 2004)

tarey_g, no offense dude but r u and this omega dude frnds or wot ? 
Or r u the same person ? Got me thinking........


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## tarey_g (Oct 1, 2004)

haha.. no blade we are not the same person nor we r friends, but it looks like wherever i post i definitely see you and alphaomega expressing ur thoughts on that particular thread.
seems like we hav some common topics of intrest on this forum . 

if it comes to replying a post like mayur did then i definitely wud hav supported anyone on this forum .

i wonder what will be alphaomega's reaction to this..


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## gxsaurav (Oct 1, 2004)

This guy  here switched from ATI X800Pro to NVIDIA 6800GT, just for one simple reason, ATI Drivers which are useless


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## plasmafire (Oct 1, 2004)

hmm.. while u r playin at 16 bit, i'll playing at 24bit.
juz waitin 4 oct 3


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## tarey_g (Oct 1, 2004)

no ati drivers are not useless, but still not better than nvidia's drivers


----------



## AlphaOmega (Oct 1, 2004)

Hey, blade_runner! I am definitely not the same guy as t_g! Canâ€™t you tell from the writing style?
Just because t_g has supported me in a few discussions does not mean he is me. I mean, I have supported gxsaurav in a lot of topics. This is because I agree with him (on those topics), not because I am him, or his friend.
I think you must have gotten this idea from reading the GeForce4 Ti threads in the hardware section. Well, both t_g and I were selling our cards and were forced to go defensive and support each other when everyone was against us.
Also, I am a dial-up user and I hardly have the time or bandwidth to mess around with 2 different IDs.

Itâ€™s just that mayurâ€™s post was really foolish, so anyone who as their system config in their signatures will understand what I said. You have your specs in the signature, so is it because you think that your sys is out of this world? It just seems that t_g is more outspoken about things than most.


----------



## tarey_g (Oct 1, 2004)

mayur said:
			
		

> if u guys want to post so many useless messages why dont u use ur IM's instead of flooding this FORUM ????




those who think this discussion is useless can go and watch sas-bahu serials 8)


----------



## AlphaOmega (Oct 2, 2004)

Sorry GX, but you are wrong. ATI drivers are hardly useless. Seen in a vacum they are quite good. I actually like the interface quite a lot. It's just that nVIDIA's drivers are better.

I know there were problems with the FX range dropping precision (24 to 16), but does this apply to the new 6x00 series? I haven't read anything about this, so can someone point me to a relevant link?


----------



## veer (Oct 3, 2004)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> This guy  here switched from ATI X800Pro to NVIDIA 6800GT, just for one simple reason, *ATI Drivers which are useless*


What an moronic statement or better put what a n00bish statement. 

The whole "ATI drivers are useless" crap is not applicable now, might have been true in the pre-9700 era, not now. 99% of the people who have troubles with ATI drivers dont know the real reason for the conflict and simply make ATI the scapegoat.   

ATI's CCC is far more advanced than anything from Nvidia. Even Nvidia is working on a .NET version taking a cue out of ATI's book. Go figure.


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 3, 2004)

U R wrong, weer, it's not only the past it's even today, take a look, When a new game comes, ATI has to release new drivers, to optimize for that popular game, & to fix the bugs, NVIDIA, their drivers work with any game flawlessly, if there is any bug, it will be solved

Don't think that releasing Drivers, WHQL certified every 28 days makes ATI a better player, Y r there 2d application compatibility & 3d games compatibility probs with ATI drivers

The other thing I hate about ATI drivers is there incresing size, 26 MB &  42 MB think about it, do ATI thinks that everyone who owns an ATI card has Broadband internet, ask those using Dial Up & ATI cards, how much they suffer from downloading 42 MB on dialup

NVIDIA is making .net drivers not because it has to catchup (source IRC), but because it is a requirment to make the driver model in .net for longhorn, however the kernal mode driver is still made in c++, so ATI drivers has only control panel in .net not the drivers, while NVIDIA don't have a control panel flashy in colors but it is simple to even the n00b, he can configure anything with NVIDIA drivers


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 3, 2004)

hey, I just compleated my 1001 post


----------



## pa_ajaykumar (Oct 3, 2004)

*Price of Graphics card*

Hello friends can any of you tell me the price of the following graphics cards, Ati Radeon X800 Pro/XT with 256 Mb ram and nVidia Geforce 6800 Ultra with 256 mb ram from Asus/Gigabyte or ATi brand and which one is better.


----------



## plasmafire (Oct 3, 2004)

hey some guy switched 2 6800 b'coz of drivers..

well this guy switched 2 9800 pro b coz of crappy quality on GF FX.. lol anybody wanna buy used 5700 pure, 5200?


----------



## gamefreak14 (Oct 4, 2004)

how much do you quote for the FX 5700?


----------



## veer (Oct 4, 2004)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> U R wrong, weer, it's not only the past it's even today, take a look, When a new game comes, ATI has to release new drivers, to optimize for that popular game, & to fix the bugs, NVIDIA, their drivers work with any game flawlessly, if there is any bug, it will be solved


Again, you dont know what your are talking about.  :roll: In the past ATI's driver releases were 2 months or far in between. Now that ATI is working more on their drivers and releasing or tweaking them more than Nvidia, you still have a problem. 



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Don't think that releasing Drivers, WHQL certified every 28 days makes ATI a better player, Y r there 2d application compatibility & 3d games compatibility probs with ATI drivers


Ouch, so you are also upset that the Catalysts are WHQL certified and Forceware are not sometimes. That makes sense as if it was the other way around, you would have been crying foul that ATI's drivers are not WHQL certified.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> The other thing I hate about ATI drivers is there incresing size, 26 MB &  42 MB think about it, do ATI thinks that everyone who owns an ATI card has Broadband internet, ask those using Dial Up & ATI cards, how much they suffer from downloading 42 MB on dialup


There you again complaining. ATI has taken the lead and came out with their .NET based Control Center first. Nvidia is building the same thing, they are behind in this area. ATI is not forcing you to download the CCC, you can get the old Control Center which weighs in far less. 



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> NVIDIA is making .net drivers not because it has to catchup (source IRC), but because it is a requirment to make the driver model in .net for longhorn, however the kernal mode driver is still made in c++, so ATI drivers has only control panel in .net not the drivers, while NVIDIA don't have a control panel flashy in colors but it is simple to even the n00b, he can configure anything with NVIDIA drivers


Longhorn is still 2 or more years away, Nvidia is playing catch up with ATI here. AFAIK nobody has yet seen Nvidia's .NET based Control Center so your claim that it is not flashy is vapor.   ATI's CCC is far more simple, if you have troubles with it then it means you are a n00b.   

And just FYI:



> Basically with the new ATI CATALYST Control Center we have a refreshing, exciting, innovative and versatile graphics card driver control panel *which should really scare the blazes out of nVidia*. *It is far more superior to the aging nVidia driver control panel* and *if nVidia donâ€™t develop something similar they will likely get left behind in this department.*
> 
> *In our opinion, up until now nVidia has always had a better drive control panel with more options but this has all been blasted out the window with the release of the CATALYST Control Center by ATI*. The only downside at the moment is the fact that graphics cards under the R3XX and R4XX range are not supported at this stage but will be fixed soon. You can even revert back to the previous control panel by uninstalling the control center if you donâ€™t happen to like it.
> 
> A* job well done ATI â€“ what will nVidia come up with now? *Fun times!



*www.tweaktown.com/document.php?dType=article&dId=692&dPage=6 



> Hello friends can any of you tell me the price of the following graphics cards, Ati Radeon X800 Pro/XT with 256 Mb ram and nVidia Geforce 6800 Ultra with 256 mb ram from Asus/Gigabyte or ATi brand and which one is better.


Ajay, all the cards you have mentioned are too costly. If you want to spend that much and get the best; go for the X800 XT PE. If you can wait a bit and want to save some money, wait for the 6600 & X700 series.


----------



## veer (Oct 4, 2004)

gr8prash said:
			
		

> anidex do u know recently nVidia gave the proof of failure of ati GFX PCI-E chipsets. u can see them at  *www.xbitlabs.com



It was all propaganda. Even PCI-Sig those who certify PCI-Express compatibility claimed the next day that the Nvidia's documents were horse poop. You go and read ATi's response which has far less BS and more truth unlike Nvidia's documents.


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 4, 2004)

Ya, rite, veer, I can smell ANIDEX In U

Agin, when others do it, it's bad, when U do it it's good, do U remember when did the first ever Windows XP Driver came, in the year 2000, MS provides the hardware vendors the tools to create drivers, it takes time to create drivers, take a look at anandtech catalyst review, they have mentioned clearly that it is a requirment in Longhorn so there is no use of it rite now, but isn't bad if it is provided, conclusion, this is not a reason due to which U should Start saying that NVIDIA is far


----------



## sahil170 (Oct 4, 2004)

> gxsaurav said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## veer (Oct 4, 2004)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Ya, rite, veer, I can smell ANIDEX In U


Or better put; you can smell your hapless defeat and look for ways to wriggle out of it which you are doing right now.   



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Agin, when others do it, it's bad, when U do it it's good, do U remember when did the first ever Windows XP Driver came, in the year 2000, MS provides the hardware vendors the tools to create drivers, it takes time to create drivers, take a look at anandtech catalyst review, they have mentioned clearly that it is a requirment in Longhorn so there is no use of it rite now, but isn't bad if it is provided, conclusion, this is not a reason due to which U should Start saying that NVIDIA is far


Oh ! the irony ! "Again, when others do it, it's bad, when U do it it's good" applies to you too. It is you who thinks when ATI does it, it's bad and when Nvidia does it, its good. Get that straight first.


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 4, 2004)

Well, all I can say, that no one can teach U anything, again, U Like ATI then go for it,

Tell me a single game where NVIDIA is running 16 bit insted of benchamrks in the past, then continue the argument


----------



## plasmafire (Oct 4, 2004)

choose any game u like gx..lol..

any game that chokes the fx.. is run in 16 bit bit compat mode..


----------



## [flAsh] (Oct 4, 2004)

LOOK ONE THING IS CERTAIN BE IT nVIDIA OR ATi A GAMER REQUIRES DESCENT FPS IN ALL GAMES ALONG WITH AA & AF ENABLED(IE TONS OF EYE CANDY). IF nVIDIA DELIVERS IT AND I HAVE IT, THEN OK . BUT IF ATi DELIVERS IT I HAVE IT, THEN ALSO ITS OK.

MOREOVER X300, X600, X700 CHIPSTES FRM ATi ARE GENUINE PCI-E CHIPSETS WITHOUT ANY AGP BRIDGE. SAME MANNER 6600 IS ALSO DEVELOPED SEPARATELY 4 PCI-E AND AGP VERSIONS


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 4, 2004)

Just to prove flash wrong

ATI has learned that having 2 chips one for PCI-E & one for AGP is a bad idea even they are going for NVIDIA HSI, so I smell cheating & steeling NVIDIA technology, who they were saying a few days back is bad in performance

*www.theinquirer.net/?article=18853


----------



## Rajesh_K (Oct 4, 2004)

ATI is best for quality.  Hands down.  As for price, you can always get another licensed company's version of the ATI cards.  Like Sapphire, ect...

I have a Sapphire Radeon 9600 128mb ddr.  And it was about 70$ Canadian cheaper than the regular ATi version, and they use the same chips manfactured by ATi.  70$ is like 2450 ruppees.


----------



## veer (Oct 5, 2004)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Just to prove flash wrong
> 
> ATI has learned that having 2 chips one for PCI-E & one for AGP is a bad idea even they are going for NVIDIA HSI, so I smell cheating & steeling NVIDIA technology, who they were saying a few days back is bad in performance
> 
> *www.theinquirer.net/?article=18853


Dude, whatever your issue is. Maybe ATI refused to sell you one of their cards   but TSMC or IBM are the ones who manufacture the cores for both ATI and Nvidia. They might have suggested it and ATI might have given it a thought which is enough for you to jump like a cricket that they are copying HSI.    However you have conveniently ignored that Nvidia is also developing .NET based Control panel. Isnt that copying ? What a bias.  :roll:


----------



## demoninside (Oct 5, 2004)

Ya keep it on guys missing anidex though
k each guys have his own choice as far as i can go here (sppended complete 3Hr+) for reading this thread completely .
I find out the core of ATi is better where the compablity of NVIDIA is far more better.
So guess no one wins it we have DRAW here what u say guys.
And i think we shouldn't pull any ones legs, and why u people loves it.
Pls Anidex & Gxsaurav you should accepet where u r wrong nd the second one is right.
You both look like some F****ng morons fighting like living in some hell world and going to get ur a$$ F***ed if u'll proved to be wrong.
I have edited it before in some thread nd posting it here again
so pls guys u both r technologically strong nd have ur own way of thinking nd have own facts but pls check what other one want to say.


----------



## demoninside (Oct 5, 2004)

Sorry i need to point out these two cause these two r reputed members nd they behaved like as i said so pls take my apology


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## veer (Oct 5, 2004)

demoninside said:
			
		

> so pls guys u *both* r technologically strong nd have ur own way of thinking nd have own facts but pls check what other one want to say.


erm, only anidex knew his stuff correctly. I wont comment about the other person you are referring to. 

Nvidia copies ATI *again:*
*www.theinquirer.net/?article=18852


----------



## demoninside (Oct 5, 2004)

Come on veer ur looking only one side just check out the other side,
as i said anidex is technologically very strong so no prob with that, but i think he didn't even checked the gxsaurav posts so as gxsaurav. 
so i m not with any one i just want a final result so that no one have any prob with that and if u think i m wrong then, "i m" cause i want to solve this out in any way.
come on it's we do,  don't we learn by others which seems to be gone to show some thing.
this forum about all u great guys out there without u it's nothing.
so i want to see gxsaurav and anidex both to be here, (checked veer link i have already said im a ATi fan so????? but when it comes about comptability i have to accept Nvidia) any way each one have there choice i m not regrating it so pls.
And all u people there help me desolve this prob. b/w anidex & gxsaurav.
why each & every thing is about ur repo.
come on u can't  understand the meaning of success unbtill & unless u r failed in ur life.
so it's all about life nd u r not dead as me so come on and accept it.


----------



## veer (Oct 5, 2004)

demoninside, what compatability issues have you encountered with ATI cards ?


----------



## demoninside (Oct 5, 2004)

veer said:
			
		

> demoninside, what compatability issues have you encountered with ATI cards ?



Hell no veer I wanted to solve this out
look i wasn't in this GPU's stuff much but when i get here i started to search out nd read about it so it's from net only no practical 
I wanted it to be end soon but, for u what i have found
NVIDIA have coustmize there drivers for the max performance, and also this optamization stuff.
so this makes there drviers & cards more on to comptability stff.
(READ FULL THREAD FOR THIS)
nd yes i this gxsaurav is right (pls don't take it personally)
u do smell like anidex.
Correct me if i m wrong
(**** But check this complete  thread before that*)


----------



## veer (Oct 5, 2004)

demoninside, let me be frank & blunt for a second and tell you that most of this thread is BS (Bull shit). We have a "smart"   fellow showing benchmarks on page 2 between a 9800 and 6800 Ultra   Poor thing. Anyway most of this thread is lies, biased opinion. Especially gxsaurav as he seems to have a personal vendetta agains ATI for some reason or another.

Coming back to the topic in question, check Anandtech, XBit Labs, Guru3D, Rage3D, Firingsquad, Tweaktown, Tomshardware and other websites. ATI cards are as compatible as Nvidia cards. The only thing lacking is ATI's driver support for Linux which is what 3-5% of the desktop market ? A common user is never going to use Linux anyway ATI is developing Linux drivers as they want to shut up the fanboys who are crying foul over ATI in this department.

Nvidia has in the past optimized or cheated on many occasions that they dont even confess up that they lied, cheated their customers. I'm not saying that I dont like Nvidia cards, hell I own one Nvidia & one ATI card but I despise Nvidia as a company and their practices.

I am not Anidex. Anidex might be getting a laugh out of this. I'm sure the moderators can do an IP check. If you are still in doubt, ask a mod and you'll get it confirmed that Anidex & me are not the same person.


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 5, 2004)

first veer, it's easy to mask your IP address, i m doing this from years, so don't say such lame questions

2nd, Me against ATI, man the card ANIDEX have I had that card long ago (2 months ago), I had a Gigabyte Radeon 9600 Pro, & belive me I Likes the Quality, but feature wise it was nothing compared to NVIDIA FX series, thats Y I switched to FX insted of radeon 9800 Pro


----------



## icecoolz (Oct 5, 2004)

Could we put an end to the topic please.... ATI , NVIDIA both are good... performance wise ATI is better but if you look at the price to performance ratio well NIVIDA is way better. Whats the point in havin an amazing graphics card if its not made vaible to the public. As a pure HW enthusiast I would go for an ATI but price constraints are a fact of life and well tho there is a diff in the ATI performace it doesnt warrant that kind of price ...I wouldnt pay 400 $ for a card which has a small diff in the benchmarks over the nvidia one... 

my two bits...


----------



## blade_runner (Oct 5, 2004)

Good thing i dint get myself involved in this ..............there was a another topic like this before and i was involved in it, but after some time  it got ugly and things went outta hand. I'd rather see and end to this topic rather than continuing it fwd !


----------



## gxsaurav (Oct 5, 2004)

10 pages, it is never ending, but it's better then running & arguing in 5 thread like this


----------



## demoninside (Oct 5, 2004)

Ya it is gxsaurav
I m sure ur right, but guess veer is not far behind (as far as ip changing it's like to be the work of kids &don't even needed if ur on dial up so leave that pert nd i m not blaming some fact i just said so cause u look like his great fan).
any way each nd every one know, it's always ATi first when come about quality & durablity, as well as prise .
But talking about performance it's always NVIDIA where we trust
nd pls veer optimazation is not cheating what u have said.
so guys pls try to accept what is there nd both have there own +points
as well as there -points so pls guys try to listen to what other want to tell u.
pls listen to them too,
as far as that moron who have compared 9800 to 6800
leave him but i think no standerd is been declared for x800 is there.
so guys, I m a hardcore ATi fan but know where i'll find GF better


----------



## [flAsh] (Oct 5, 2004)

Look guys offlate ATi r optimising there catalyst drivers to support more games. Also sum games like Hal-life2 r optimised 2 run better on Ati than on nVidia cards. just opposite is the case in Doom3 Id always favoured nVidia over Ati and Valve favoured ATI over nVidia.
That's it.


----------



## crusader77 (Oct 5, 2004)

I think this guy is just getting a kick outa arguing.. nothing can change facts.. now pls. end this, its really getting outa hand...


----------



## veer (Oct 5, 2004)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> first veer, it's easy to mask your IP address, i m doing this from years, so don't say such lame questions


Using Proxies, yes you can. But I'm not using any as I am not afraid of anything. If you trace back my IP, you'll get the legit ISP of my country. A masked IP address will only lead to well know proxy servers. I dont know about you gxsaurav but using a proxy here means either you are paranoid or upto something fishy.



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> 2nd, Me against ATI, man the card ANIDEX have I had that card long ago (2 months ago), I had a Gigabyte Radeon 9600 Pro, & belive me I Likes the Quality, but feature wise it was nothing compared to NVIDIA FX series, thats Y I switched to FX insted of radeon 9800 Pro


What feature does the 5000 FX series have that the Radeon 9800 series doesnt have ? Crappy shader performance ? Please, dont try to kid me with your biased decisions or purchases. I dont care if you go out and buy a XGI card and try to justify it as the most feature rich card ever.



			
				icecoolz said:
			
		

> I would go for an ATI but price constraints are a fact of life and well tho there is a diff in the ATI performace it doesnt warrant that kind of price ...I wouldnt pay 400 $ for a card which has a small diff in the benchmarks over the nvidia one...


What are your smoking ? ATI prices are same as Nvidia and in most cases cheaper than Nvidia.

Nvidia 6800 Ultra - ATI X800 XT PE - $499
Nvidia 6800 GT - ATI X800 Pro - $399
Nvidia 6800 - ATI X800 SE - $299
Nvidia 6600GT - ATI X700 XT - $199
Nvidia 6600 - ATI X700 - $149



			
				demoninside said:
			
		

> But talking about performance it's always NVIDIA where we trust nd pls veer optimazation is not cheating what u have said.


From the past 2-3 (since the 9700 era) ATI has always been better in performance, quality & features. The only extra thing 6800 series has is PS3.0 which is practically useless for now and will probably be useless till PS4.0 is out. 

About optimization, I'm all for optimizing but there is a big difference between optimizing without losing quality and with losing quality. Nvidia did the latter to gain almost 45% gain in 3DMark03. When caught with their pants down, Nvidia didnt even confess up like ATI did. ATI's optimizations yeilded 3-4% increase because they didnt sacrifice quality. Anyway, what Nvidia did was outright wrong and all the consumers (owners of Nvidia cards) deserved an apology from Nvidia which is still due.


----------



## icecoolz (Oct 6, 2004)

veer said:
			
		

> What are your smoking ? ATI prices are same as Nvidia and in most cases cheaper than Nvidia.
> 
> Nvidia 6800 Ultra - ATI X800 XT PE - $499
> Nvidia 6800 GT - ATI X800 Pro - $399
> ...



Would love to know where you got those prices from. I froogled it for just ATI x800 and heres what I got: 

*froogle.google.com/froogle?scoring=p&q=ATI+X800&btnG=Search+Froogle&sa=N

dont see any SE's and everything starts at around 400 $ mate.

Heres the froogle result for ATI X700 XT - 

*froogle.google.com/froogle?scoring=p&q=ATI+X700+XT+

ur right there it does start around 200 $

Heres the froogle list for XT 700 starts around 185$ 

*froogle.google.com/froogle?scoring=p&q=ATI+X700&btnG=Search+Froogle

wonder how u got those prices...hmmm...


----------



## veer (Oct 6, 2004)

icecoolz said:
			
		

> Would love to know where you got those prices from. I froogled it for just ATI x800 and heres what I got:
> 
> *froogle.google.com/froogle?scoring=p&q=ATI+X800&btnG=Search+Froogle&sa=N
> 
> dont see any SE's and everything starts at around 400 $ mate....


These are MSRP direct from ATI & Nvidia. Look at Pricewatch.com, ATI & Nvidia's websites, you'll find these prices. 




			
				icecoolz said:
			
		

> ur right there it does start around 200 $...


All the prices I listed are MSRPs direct from the company's websites, I'm not making them up. 



			
				icecoolz said:
			
		

> wonder how u got those prices...hmmm...


Again, check the websites.  :roll:


----------



## demoninside (Oct 6, 2004)

cool up dude(veer) u r not afraid of any think cool up we r not blamming u for some disgusting fact we all know anidex is a personality & we love to get him back so no way he wanna chang up for some crappy ting.
So chill yaar "kyno gussa karta hai pai"
any way if u'll talk about ISP and country S**T u know i think u can always chnage connectivity i u know than no proxy method just get hold any ISP nd any country so cool up i m not blamming.


----------



## tarey_g (Oct 7, 2004)

> we all know anidex is a personality




if anidex has a bit dignity left he should never come back  and never post again after such announcement.

but what............ he is shamelessly back . bad ....very bad   . 

you shud never had announced somethin like that


----------



## veer (Oct 7, 2004)

demoninside said:
			
		

> any way if u'll talk about ISP and country S**T u know i think u can always chnage connectivity i u know than no proxy method just get hold any ISP nd any country so cool up i m not blamming.


Dont know what you mean by that. Getting hold of any ISP & any other country wont help you hide your IP. Anyway, its upto the mods to look into this. You, me or anybody else have do not have any right to accuse that two users are the same without the proof to back up those statements. 



			
				tarey_g said:
			
		

> if anidex has a bit dignity left he should never come back
> 
> but what............ he is shamelessly back . bad ....very bad


Dont know what issues you had with Anidex but to me only he looked like the person who knew what he was talking about.


----------



## demoninside (Oct 7, 2004)

Ya it's right veer and i have to accept it, that anidex is a person who knowes what he is saying.
and teray_g
i guess u r a moron who says leve a place due to some announcement stop kidding me.
We have stoped him, guess u haven't gone for the thread were we asked him to stop, even i personally ask him to stop so stop this type of S**t.


----------



## demoninside (Oct 7, 2004)

sorry veer can't tell u about changing connectivity here, by this u can hide ur ISP nd ur country till an extend, Hackers use it mostly so.........


----------



## veer (Oct 7, 2004)

demoninside said:
			
		

> sorry veer can't tell u about changing connectivity here, by this u can hide ur ISP nd ur country till an extend, Hackers use it mostly so.........


Hey, I was not asking how to do that ... 

I am not upto something fishy hence I dont need any of such measures.


----------



## icecoolz (Oct 7, 2004)

veer: 

Checked the sites: 

Pricewatch - If what they say is true then a Geforce 6800 is available for 142 $ ???!!! I clicked on the link and it was for alas...a 6600. Hmmm...doesnt say much for the credibility for pricewatch....dont believe me go check it urself...

Went to the ATI shop and guess what...no XT800 SE's... 

*shop.ati.com/searchresults.asp?search=keyword&search_field=description&search_criteria=X800

As you can see there are the X800 pro and the X800 PE with the prices mentioned...I never doubted u on that...I was only refering to the prices of the SE's which I dont seem to be able to find anywhere...nor in pricewatch or in ATI....hmmm... Lets investigate further...

This is what I searched for in the ATI shop when I wanted to search for X700 and guess what: 

*shop.ati.com/searchresults.asp?search=keyword&search_field=description&search_criteria=X700

yup...the search returned no results....hmmm...

Price watch has it listed but only the X700 pros at 250 dollars....for that I can get a BFG nividia 6800 mate...

Still waitin for the mysterious SE and the X700 (non pro) ....


----------



## tarey_g (Oct 7, 2004)

demoninside said:
			
		

> Ya it's right veer and i have to accept it, that anidex is a person who knowes what he is saying.
> and teray_g
> i guess u r a moron who says leve a place due to some announcement stop kidding me.
> We have stoped him, guess u haven't gone for the thread were we asked him to stop, even i personally ask him to stop so stop this type of S**t.




hey u can see my posts on 'that' thread too . i agree that anidex is a person who knows what he is saying but he is a ati fanboy and he cant see beyond that . secondly that thread was  total crap started by some one called fbi who knows fbi???????????


----------



## demoninside (Oct 7, 2004)

tarey_g said:
			
		

> demoninside said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



what ever but i also count my self as his fan but yes he don't look what other is tring to say..


----------



## veer (Oct 7, 2004)

icecoolz said:
			
		

> Pricewatch - If what they say is true then a Geforce 6800 is available for 142 $ ???!!! I clicked on the link and it was for alas...a 6600. Hmmm...doesnt say much for the credibility for pricewatch....dont believe me go check it urself...


Pricewatch has thousands of such links, they cant verify each and every link. Its the responsibility of the hardware website to report and correct their own links. Looks like you heard about Pricewatch for the first time and hence the apprehension. 



			
				icecoolz said:
			
		

> Went to the ATI shop and guess what...no XT800 SE's...
> 
> *shop.ati.com/searchresults.asp?search=keyword&search_field=description&search_criteria=X800
> 
> As you can see there are the X800 pro and the X800 PE with the prices mentioned...I never doubted u on that...I was only refering to the prices of the SE's which I dont seem to be able to find anywhere...nor in pricewatch or in ATI....hmmm... Lets investigate further...


ATI will never sell the X800 SE's on their websites, only ATI's AIB partners will. The X800 SE does exist, it will be available soon. You dont look like you are up to date with the latest news .... This article is about one month old: *www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20040904105510.html




			
				icecoolz said:
			
		

> This is what I searched for in the ATI shop when I wanted to search for X700 and guess what:
> 
> *shop.ati.com/searchresults.asp?search=keyword&search_field=description&search_criteria=X700
> 
> ...


Considering the X700 was launched recently, it will show up soon. You are one hell of an impatient guy. Nvidia 6600 started showing up in retail almost 2 months since they were officially launched, ATI took only 2 weeks. You are complaining on that ? Head over to HardOCP site and you'll find that X700 Pros are already available at BestBuy. 

And that price of $250 is inflated. ATI's MSRP is $199, so those guys are violating that.

And please dont try to kid me, show me where I can find a BFG Nvidia 6800 for $250. I'm sure you'll try wriggle out of this now.  :roll:


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## icecoolz (Oct 8, 2004)

veer said:
			
		

> Pricewatch has thousands of such links, they cant verify each and every link. Its the responsibility of the hardware website to report and correct their own links. Looks like you heard about Pricewatch for the first time and hence the apprehension.
> 
> 
> Considering the X700 was launched recently, it will show up soon. You are one hell of an impatient guy. Nvidia 6600 started showing up in retail almost 2 months since they were officially launched, ATI took only 2 weeks. You are complaining on that ? Head over to HardOCP site and you'll find that X700 Pros are already available at BestBuy.
> ...



I'll take it by point by point.

I know about pricewatch much longer than you think. I dont go by them for all they do is show up adverts of other companies. Since they are not responsible for the ads put up, especially wrong info, then why would I wonder about credbility of any of them ? Till date froogle hasnt given me inaccurate info. So I'll go by that. 

Since this convo didnt come up 2 months ago I'll take whats shown to me today. I can claim that nvidia is making a chipset based on the new PCI-E cards and will be available soon....its not available hence I wont take it into account. Its like waiting for half life 2...we all know the story...I'll believe it when i see it on the shelves. 

I dont think questions with regards to my patience needs to be marked in public. If you want that can be taken offline. I am just posting facts. So stick to that. 

X700 pro's are not in question. I am talking about the X700. X700 pro's prices are posted in pricewatch itself. So there is no comparisons talks here.

You can speculate what the violations are and so on I am only posting whats available in the market. Once again I reiterate lets stick to the facts. 

As fas as ur BFG Nvidia 6800 for $250 question goes Here it is: 

*www.outpost.com/product/4082672/

I suggest the next time u have the so called facts...back it up.  b4 I post I certainly back everything up and till now I have. All u say is claims and blah blah....And also mate being passionate about things is ok as long as u dont let it get to u....


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## tarey_g (Oct 8, 2004)

demoninside said:
			
		

> what ever but i also count my self as his fan but yes he don't look what other is tring to say..


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## veer (Oct 9, 2004)

> I know about pricewatch much longer than you think. I dont go by them for all they do is show up adverts of other companies. Since they are not responsible for the ads put up, especially wrong info, then why would I wonder about credbility of any of them ? Till date froogle hasnt given me inaccurate info. So I'll go by that.


Ha ha Froogle. Keep using it, I'm nobody to influence your personal preference in any way. 



> Since this convo didnt come up 2 months ago I'll take whats shown to me today. I can claim that nvidia is making a chipset based on the new PCI-E cards and will be available soon....its not available hence I wont take it into account. Its like waiting for half life 2...we all know the story...I'll believe it when i see it on the shelves.


Now you are trying to derail the whole argument.

It was not about availability but about price. You claimed that ATI cards were more expensive compared to Nvidia which as I already know is pure BS.



> I dont think questions with regards to my patience needs to be marked in public. If you want that can be taken offline


You were trying to make an unfair comparision between 6600 & X700 series which only showed your impatience and bias. 



> I am just posting facts. So stick to that.


Facts ? Like WMDs in Iraq ? lol



> As fas as ur BFG Nvidia 6800 for $250 question goes Here it is:
> 
> *www.outpost.com/product/4082672/


Nice. I wonder if its in stock.



> I suggest the next time u have the so called facts...back it up. b4 I post I certainly back everything up and till now I have. All u say is claims and blah blah....And also mate being passionate about things is ok as long as u dont let it get to u....


Buddy, you are the one talking out of your imaginary world saying ATI cards are expensive than Nvidia cards. You have yet to come up with such proof to back that up. 

I am not claiming anything. Its the other way around. As far as pointing out the news about the X800 SE, that source (X Bit Labs) has been proven correct time & again. I never doubt them.


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## gxsaurav (Oct 9, 2004)

Now it is Veer(smells like ANDEX) vs everyone else on money

Does it matters what the Price is, it is not the price of India


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## veer (Oct 9, 2004)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Now it is Veer(smells like ANDEX) vs everyone else on money


Another one of your cheap accusations without any proof to back that up. I think I'll report this to mods myself and let them decide about it. :roll:



			
				gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Does it matters what the Price is, it is not the price of India


Yes, price matters. In some situations, it matters the most. I dont know what you mean by "price of India", what was that ?


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## gxsaurav (Oct 9, 2004)

simple the price in India is higher then it's $ counterpart


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## veer (Oct 9, 2004)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> simple the price in India is higher then it's $ counterpart


Thats not ATI's fault, the retailers price it higher. 

Also its also got to do with the fact that Nvidia has been around longer than ATI and has a had a longer relationship with them. Same as Intel has more trust of the retailers than AMD.


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## gxsaurav (Oct 9, 2004)

Lets see, not the fault of ATI, well then they have a very lousy Marketing team


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## veer (Oct 9, 2004)

gxsaurav said:
			
		

> Lets see, not the fault of ATI, well then they have a very lousy Marketing team


They dont prefer to spread propaganda against their competitors first,  in that sense YES ! they are lousy.


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## demoninside (Oct 9, 2004)

Come on first 
anidex vs gx
now gx vs veer
over this sh*t here
come on r u guys get some from these componies then give me some nd i'll also help u out


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## veer (Oct 10, 2004)

demoninside said:
			
		

> Come on first
> anidex vs gx
> *now gx vs veer*


I'm not against anybody, I try to counter lies & BS.


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## blade_runner (Oct 10, 2004)

hmm......i havent seen any personal rebukes, or attacks frm veer so i dont have any reasons to believe that veer is getting personal against Gx. But seriously guys aren't you tired of all this ! Stop being such FanBois (i know its hard but do try) and stop this un-ending debate once and for all ! Its grown 12 pages long ................


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## gxsaurav (Oct 10, 2004)

Will be 13 soon, Since ANIDEX left there is no fun left


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## demoninside (Oct 10, 2004)

blade_runner said:
			
		

> hmm......i havent seen any personal rebukes, or attacks frm veer so i dont have any reasons to believe that veer is getting personal against Gx. But seriously guys aren't you tired of all this ! Stop being such FanBois (i know its hard but do try) and stop this un-ending debate once and for all ! Its grown 12 pages long ................


same thinking here too m8, r u not tired by this


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## icecoolz (Oct 11, 2004)

I hardly consider myself a fanboy...I like both Nvidia and ATI. The past 5 systems I have assembled has been with the Raedon cards. And those people have been very happy with it. I was purely litigting what is available and what is not. Great that ATI has those cards but if it isnt available in the market easily then whats the use ? Thats all I am coming down to. 

Anyways I am getting my BFG NVIDIA 6800 card tomm. And I got it ordered from the very same site that I pasted earlier. And with this I will end my two bits. Like I said being passionate about something is good. But being over zealous about something like this...well...that aint me...and I'll rest with that...peace!


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## plasmafire (Oct 11, 2004)

guyz anybody miss me??...
lolz.. most o may hate me 4 being the starter o this thread.. but here comes more..

i met a guy who works in Ati..his name is Anil srivatsav.. he writes embedded code 4 memory management..n some co-processor.

the point is.. ATI's motto is not as much business as perf.. these guys r pure geeks..u know the funny part..they don't have a marketing team..only distribution n accts guyz..the ads n graphics r done by CODERS.. even site maintenance is done by them.. that explains a lotta things... i got a few hints on what is next.. xpect a 512mb..ddr3..pci-e card using all 16x of memory... 1gb card is in pipe.. LOI stage.. it can transfer ram 2 appz when needed..tryin 2 go 2 48 bit color precision ..4 graphics work..


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## demoninside (Oct 11, 2004)

hey buddy so u r *dropdi* of this mahabharat??????????


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## gamefreak14 (Oct 12, 2004)

Finally...I guess my dreams are coming true! Something that'll hit the 100$ mark so soon!


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## veer (Oct 12, 2004)

Thats some interesting info Plasmafire  Thanks.


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## plasmafire (Oct 12, 2004)

ha ha ha... not the dropadi... i like 2 think o myself..as Duryodhan


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## plasmafire (Oct 12, 2004)

more info soon abt ATi.. will call him up..

anybody wanna ask ATi something.. herezz ur chance..(some thg sensible..i donn wanna end up lookin like an ID-TEN-T)..


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## veer (Oct 12, 2004)

Plasmafire, a few things I'd like to know about:

1. When will the 512MB cards be launched ?

2. How close is R480 to launch ? I mean the timeframe they are looking to launch it, is it Nov or Dec ?

3. R520, what is the architecture going to be like ? I mean 24 pipes ? 

4. R500, the chip in Xbox 2 (Xenon), details on that ...

I think I overloaded you with too many questions now.


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## plasmafire (Oct 12, 2004)

lolz.. u have until sat...ask as many as u like.. i'll print em..make it a proper I.V. lolz.. maybe.. send a copy askin him..


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## plasmafire (Oct 12, 2004)

as 4 512 MB.. they re ready last month..launch is after newz o Nvidia 512 mb.sustainable mass prodn is already underway.


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## veer (Oct 12, 2004)

plasmafire said:
			
		

> as 4 512 MB.. they re ready last month..launch is after newz o Nvidia 512 mb.sustainable mass prodn is already underway.


They are ready last month means they are ready since September but are waiting for Nvidia to launch 512MB cards ? 

btw, thanks for the forwarding my questions.


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## plasmafire (Oct 13, 2004)

yes they are...they are evn on the prodn line..as we speak...lol

they re not released as they'll impact the sales of X-256MB series..+ ATi ha to counter NV cards.


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## gxsaurav (Oct 13, 2004)

512 MB Card, well, 3DLab already had these in the pro market for some time, bout 1 year, so good to see NVIDIA again leading the way


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## amitsaudy (Oct 13, 2004)

Hey end this debate here.
Its getting too long was intresting till it was 9 page long.
Now its somewhat boring.

BBye.

PS:In my opinion i declare nsaurav @ gxvidia winners
since atidex ran away.
NO OFFENCES PLEASE.


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## amitsaudy (Oct 13, 2004)

plasmafire said:
			
		

> guyz anybody miss me??...
> lolz.. most o may hate me 4 being the starter o this thread.. but here comes more..
> 
> i met a guy who works in Ati..his name is Anil srivatsav.. he writes embedded code 4 memory management..n some co-processor.
> ...



Dude 
Thats very valuable info.
Seems ill have to extend my upgrade plans for another six months(Poor me is still using onboard geforcr2MX...sobs..)


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## veer (Oct 14, 2004)

amitsaudy said:
			
		

> Hey end this debate here.
> PS:In my opinion i declare nsaurav @ gxvidia winners
> *since atidex ran away.*
> NO OFFENCES PLEASE.


Probably because he realised that some POS people will continue their BS.


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## plasmafire (Oct 14, 2004)

lolz @ veer..
u r touchy..i'm an ATi fan too.. but Ati is not my life.. u gotta let ppl talk their minds...

@amit..no this discussn is gonna create a new record.

ALL NV ATI fight here n here only.


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## plasmafire (Oct 16, 2004)

the r480 has been ready snce july.launch may go upto jan. prices r too prohibitive now.
the only reason 4 delayed launches is price prohibition. for those with price no bar..u can order prototypes now.


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