# Is Maths Necessary To Become A Computer Scientist?



## αNerd (Jul 8, 2007)

I just had a dekko on an article in which it was remarked that Maths isnt necessary to become a computer scientist.

What do you all think here in the forum? I have reserved my comments for future.

Edit: I posted this in wrong section, mods please move it to fight club.


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## Pathik (Jul 8, 2007)

i am a 1st yr engg student myself and havent yet figured out how high level maths is related to software development... but some people say its very important.. if any1 can elaborate how then it wd be good...


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## gaurav_indian (Jul 8, 2007)

^^ Maths is necessary for a game developer.


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## QwertyManiac (Jul 8, 2007)

*pathiks* - You can't seriously program without any knowledge of maths, can you!?

As far as science is concerned, a small amount of math is always applied to almost every branch of it, but you don't really need to be a nerd in the subject to be able to innovate, discover or invent things. It'd just help you to get things started, in and out of troubles and finish things up neat and accurate. But if its related to computers"
>>'no math' == 'no use' would return True


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## Lucky_star (Jul 8, 2007)

this maths was the most f***ing subject I ever had in the last 6 semesters. I don't know what the Fourier transform, laplace, and a hell lot got to do with Computer Science.  That to with high credit points. Means you have to score well in these papers.

The first and second year where the most boring in comp. science.
I had to read Physics(I/II), Chemistry(I/II), Maths( 4 papers + 1 Discrete Mathematics), Electrical(electrical, Network theory, Electrical Machines),
Mechanics, Thermodynamics, Economics, Organisational Behaviour, Electronics(Basic, Analogue and digital- these were useful papers).


But the core subjects where only four- C, Datastructure, C++, RDBMS.

Now, guys do you think these subjects are of any use in computer science?
Anyway, those terrible days are over


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## gaurav_indian (Jul 8, 2007)

Lucky_star said:
			
		

> this maths was the most f***ing subject I ever had in the last 6 semesters. I don't know what the Fourier transform, laplace, and a hell lot got to do with Computer Science.  That to with high credit points. Means you have to score well in these papers.
> 
> The first and second year where the most boring in comp. science.
> I had to read Physics(I/II), Chemistry(I/II), Maths( 4 papers + 1 Discrete Mathematics), Electrical(electrical, Network theory, Electrical Machines),
> ...


lol i hate discrete mathematics.B/w can u suggest me some good books for Discrete mathematics especially for Recurrences.


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## gxsaurav (Jul 8, 2007)

Math is teh sh!t....it is the mother of all languages out there. I don't know about the computer science part but arithmetic is required in all fields of life so make sure that is strong.


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## QwertyManiac (Jul 8, 2007)

Lucky_star said:
			
		

> The first and second year where the most boring in comp. science.
> I had to read Physics(I/II), Chemistry(I/II), Maths( 4 papers + 1 Discrete Mathematics), Electrical(electrical, Network theory, Electrical Machines),
> Mechanics, Thermodynamics, Economics, Organisational Behaviour, Electronics(Basic, Analogue and digital- this was a useful paper).


Looool! Am in B.Tech IT of Anna Univ's sylabbus and I was thinking mine's the worst of all!

Thermodynamics, Economics, Mechanics, Electrical Machines really? Man, must've been one hell of a life!


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## Lucky_star (Jul 8, 2007)

gaurav_indian said:
			
		

> lol i hate discrete mathematics.B/w can u suggest me some good books for Discrete mathematics especially for Recurrences.


Our text book was_ Discrete Mathematics and its applications_ by KE Rosen. And it was more than enough for me.
For each chapter there are more than 100 problems. YOu can find a lot of recurrence relation problems there.
Sidewise, there is another book I was using: Elements of Discrete Mathematics By C.L. Liu. 
And its a good book.

Only God knows how I cleared that paper


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## faraaz (Jul 8, 2007)

Without Maths, you can't program...without programming, I dunno what kind of computer scientist you will turn out to be...so yeah, maths is crucial to be a Computer Scientist. That, and physics...


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## gaurav_indian (Jul 8, 2007)

Lucky_star said:
			
		

> Our text book was_ Discrete Mathematics and its applications_ by KE Rosen. And it was more than enough for me.
> For each chapter there are more than 100 problems. YOu can find a lot of recurrence relation problems there.
> Sidewise, there is another book I was using: Elements of Discrete Mathematics By C.L. Liu.
> And its a good book.
> ...


Tell me the name of publishers also.


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## xsreality (Jul 8, 2007)

QwertyManiac said:
			
		

> Looool! Am in B.Tech IT of Anna Univ's sylabbus and I was thinking mine's the worst of all!
> 
> Thermodynamics, Economics, Mechanics, Electrical Machines really? Man, must've been one hell of a life!



it seems all over india, universities have the same syllabus.. i had maths till fourth semester only. And regarding the question asked.. maths taught in engg course has hardly got anything to do with compuer science.. its just there like other first year subjects! 

By maths, what one means is that you should basically be good with numbers and quite thorough with maths upto XII level. That helps in thinking logically.. a must for a programmer! That is what comes up most of the time in computer science. Engg. maths is of no use.


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## iMav (Jul 8, 2007)

maths .... dont get me started on this subject .... im paying a heavy price of some of the mistakes i made in my last birth .... no in my last 100 births .. all put together im paying it with maths


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## Lucky_star (Jul 8, 2007)

faraaz said:
			
		

> Without Maths, you can't program...without programming, I dunno what kind of computer scientist you will turn out to be...so yeah, maths is crucial to be a Computer Scientist. That, and physics...



Faraaz, the maths which you are speaking is basic maths...those that we have learned upto class 12th. And I think, that's more than enough for any programmer. 
But this engg. maths papers sucks. No use of it anywhere... Over these three years of engg and till today, I haven't seen a single program which utilizes the terrific formulas and logics of what I learnt in engg. maths...anywhere. 
But, of course, in future, we may face a project where complex mathematical calculations may be involved. But that's in future. We can very well learn those and do the program, then. Why to worry for it now?
Ask any student in my university(Biju Patnaik University of technology) whether they like the maths papers or not. And I bet, you won't find a single one.
They are such boring. 
But it would have been interesting, if they taught the applications of maths in real life side-by-side.



			
				gaurav_indian said:
			
		

> Tell me the name of publishers also.



KE Rosen: Tata Mcgraw Hill Publications.
C.L. Liu: Same, Tata Mcgraw Hill.

Hmmm, lemme look at the syllabus
there is this another book mentioned, although haven't seen it
Thomas Koshy- DMS and its applications, ELSEIVER publications.

Saying the truth, I never looked through the books.
Thanks to those guides and local publications that helped me clear these $#!*


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## iMav (Jul 8, 2007)

the maths tht sux is engg maths .... its full cr@p


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## max_demon (Jul 9, 2007)

Maths is my fav subject!i love it


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## NIGHTMARE (Jul 9, 2007)

maths speed up our mind to solve numerical or another problem means increase your response time to calculate any thing in real life


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## RCuber (Jul 9, 2007)

I myself flunked in Maths many times  But maths is building block for everything. 

I will try to put some of my thoughts ..

1. Take game programming . Take any shooter game.. you shoot a bullet or a rocket in the air .. does it go just straight up and never comeback? no it has a trajectory.. and hits a target ... there is lot of calculation going on when you shoot, the direction, the angle of firing.. etc etc.. all there are calculated rite? 

We are now having physics engine.. Half Life.. I have not played the game myself but have read it has got one of the best physics engine. How are the calculations done? Far Cry , Crysis ?? Rendering engines

2. Formula 1 wind tunnel.  The Formula 1 teams put millions of dollars on wind tunnel tests to get the perfect aerodynamics. I remember Williams team using HP mainframe clusters running linux to simulate wind tunnel test.
This is all maths and physics. just + and - doesnt work here. they need complex calculations get the optimal results for best grip and speed. 

3.Audio/Video . Mp3 , Divx ?? how can you convert 4GB DVD into 700MB divx?  Is it by magic!!!. The conversion programs are taking each frame and calculating and detecting redundant data which can be removed from the original so that compressed frame remains as good as the original.

These are just few of my thoughts .. its up to you to decide if you want to do this 
main()
{
int a,b,c;
a=1;
b=2;
c=a+b;
printf("%d",c); /*  */
getch();
}

Or want to calculate the trajectory of a bullet been fired in your next game. or want to build a codec which is better than Divx/Xvid..


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## αNerd (Jul 9, 2007)

Here is a pointer to the article I referred in my post above: *www.itwire.com.au/content/view/13339/53/


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## Lucky_star (Jul 9, 2007)

@charangk,

Those Game programming, Formula 1 simulation testing, multimedia encoding are specialisations which you take up later. 
You got to learn it when you are in it. Why learn them now?

With connection to my previous posts, the whole point of my discussion is that two papers are wasted every year in maths. And during this two years, as a computer science student we have learned only C/C++ which even a school going student knows very well these days.
No papers like Java, VB, .net, etc while enough time is dedicated to other useless papers(not only maths) that serves no purpose.


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## vaithy (Jul 9, 2007)

Students who took computer science are finding very difficult to concentrating on computer related subjects if Maths is excessively included .. After graduation they found impossible to face the reality in emerging world scenario and joint specialized computer courses (Aptech ,NIIT ,BITS pilani and others)  This cost them time and money.. instead the curriculum of Universities  should be friendly as that of the private institutions and in realtime learning skills..Out of 9 to 10 of graduates of Computer Science Students findout  when they face the interviewer in the infosys, wipro campus selection  failed to make even simple programme involving  C and Java on their own even they com flying colors in Maths...

with regards,
Vaithy


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## praka123 (Jul 9, 2007)

^very true@vaidy.
I got arrears maths(few) to get cleared for my Electronics and Communication Engg course(ECE) from Bharathiar University(batch 97-2001) Coimbatore.and  for my branch,there is 7 Math papers(in total course) and the syllabus was from 1993.even worst things was studied fortran77,some pascal with the syllabus, very relevent subjects sigh!


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## dreamcatcher (Jul 9, 2007)

ah man..maths is very essential in field of computers....well its nt really needed on the b tech course but nwen one has to do do ms...it does ring a bell..nw cummon...maths is nt tht bad..i love maths here...in skul it was the only subject and computers that actualy gt me to pass..i always gt 90..well thesea re the two subjscts tht u dnt have to study too much...and maths is cool..
i just got thissum yesterday..try it..2^1990 if diided by 1990..wats the rem..


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## RCuber (Jul 9, 2007)

Lucky_star said:
			
		

> @charangk,
> 
> Those Game programming, Formula 1 simulation testing, multimedia encoding are specialisations which you take up later.
> You got to learn it when you are in it. Why learn them now?
> ...



:sigh: Sorry I cannot explain more... I droped maths thinking that it was only for 1st and 2nd year.. just tried to clear maths ( just clear it anyway and you will never have to deal with it again) and now im licking my wounds . I didnot study well in maths, didnt really care just thinking Differential calculus and fourier transforms were just for maths. Direct hit for me- Signals and systems , Advanced Image processing and many others.... I was just taking out my old maths book again the above subjects. ( ho yes for practicals also )


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## Garbage (Jul 9, 2007)

Lucky_star said:
			
		

> Those Game programming, Formula 1 simulation testing, multimedia encoding are specialisations which you take up later.
> You got to learn it when you are in it. Why learn them now?



Do u think that when u'll be IN industry then they gonna teach u maths instead of their special ones ??? I never hope so...

Better is to learn maths when u learn other subjects. & Believe me it helps a lot.


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## Manshahia (Jul 12, 2007)

Lucky_star said:
			
		

> this maths was the most f***ing subject I ever had in the last 6 semesters. I don't know what the Fourier transform, laplace, and a hell lot got to do with Computer Science.  That to with high credit points. Means you have to score well in these papers.
> 
> The first and second year where the most boring in comp. science.
> I had to read Physics(I/II), Chemistry(I/II), Maths( 4 papers + 1 Discrete Mathematics), Electrical(electrical, Network theory, Electrical Machines),
> ...



its india dude...


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jul 12, 2007)

*Discreet Mathematics* is very very essential for a software developer .



			
				Manshahia said:
			
		

> its india dude...


 that's why i'm givin the SAT n AP in CS AB


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## casanova (Jul 12, 2007)

Yes. Really necessary. One of the projects I made in T.Y. was completely reliying on maths and thats when I came to know the importance. BTW this project was not a calculator. 

One of my maths professor used to complain about other professors saying that they are computer graduates without mathematics.

Put it this way, if it was not necessary. Nobody would have done graduation, instead they would have done only courses like GNIIT.


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## Sykora (Jul 12, 2007)

The question was : "Is mathematics necessary to become a computer scientist?". My answer is definitely yes, but it is not necessary to become the kind of programmer that IT companies want. They don't want computer scientists, they want programmers, and they only need rudimentary discrete mathematics. If you want to become a hard-core computer scientist, mathematics is _the_ subject you must learn, on par with programming, maybe even more so. Discrete mathematics is a must, with at least a nodding acquaintance with the rest of math.


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## Vishal Gupta (Jul 12, 2007)

No math is not necessary to become a scientist. U must be 14 years old and must born in an Indian village.


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jul 12, 2007)

Sykora said:
			
		

> The question was : "Is mathematics necessary to become a computer scientist?". My answer is definitely yes, but it is not necessary to become the kind of programmer that IT companies want. They don't want computer scientists, they want programmers, and they only need rudimentary discrete mathematics. If you want to become a hard-core computer scientist, mathematics is _the_ subject you must learn, on par with programming, maybe even more so. Discrete mathematics is a must, with at least a nodding acquaintance with the rest of math.


yups , you need to know atleast basic calsulus , functions n all(no trigonometry please) to even be a proficient programmer coz how will you implement the algorithms developed by a scientist when you have absolutely no idea of how it works .


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## sandeepk (Jul 12, 2007)

For a Computer Engg. maths taught in degree course has very little meaning. They should set the course according to the branch of student taking a course. So a student with mechanical engg should have maths course more relevant to his degree course and computer engg. should have modified one relevent to his course.


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Jul 12, 2007)

sandeepk said:
			
		

> For a Computer Engg. maths taught in degree course has very little meaning. They should set the course according to the branch of student taking a course. So a student with mechanical engg should have maths course more relevant to his degree course and computer engg. should have modified one relevent to his course.


yups , but i guess Indian Educator's don't get it .

*Everyone can't be good at everything* so please stop burdening Indian students and take a cue from the US education system .


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## gaurav_indian (Jul 12, 2007)

vaithy said:
			
		

> Students who took computer science are finding very difficult to concentrating on computer related subjects if Maths is excessively included .. After graduation they found impossible to face the reality in emerging world scenario and joint specialized computer courses (Aptech ,NIIT ,BITS pilani and others)  This cost them time and money.. instead the curriculum of Universities  should be friendly as that of the private institutions and in realtime learning skills..Out of 9 to 10 of graduates of Computer Science Students findout  when they face the interviewer in the infosys, wipro campus selection  failed to make even simple programme involving  C and Java on their own even they com flying colors in Maths...
> 
> with regards,
> Vaithy


I second that.I have done BCA from IGNOU and now doing last sem of MCA from the same university.But i cant understand why subjects like history,accounts,etc included in these.Although Maths is important becoz without maths you cant be a good programmer.


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## gary4gar (Jul 12, 2007)

do guys are making me scared!
i have just passed 12th & in college Discreet Mathematics  is in my cource
i am scared


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## gaurav_indian (Jul 12, 2007)

gary4gar said:
			
		

> do guys are making me scared!
> i have just passed 12th & in college Discreet Mathematics  is in my cource
> i am scared


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## Lucky_star (Jul 13, 2007)

sandeepk said:
			
		

> For a Computer Engg. maths taught in degree course has very little meaning. They should set the course according to the branch of student taking a course. So a student with mechanical engg should have maths course more relevant to his degree course and computer engg. should have modified one relevent to his course.


 Yah, Exactly that's what I'm saying. I am not denying that there should be no maths at all. But it should be according to the course structure. So that the student can learn the applications of maths rather than simply practising the problems and clearing the exams.

Actually, I am totally fed up with the maths I've been learning in this engg. curriculum. Our proffessors also say that more than half of it is not necessary for us. And more severe is the grading system. Its the maths papers that always have the highest credit points like 4. At the same time  branch papers have got less credits like 3,2. That means, we have to score higher in maths(while lesser grades can be enough in other papers). In my college, say in my class, You give them a maths problem and 80-90% students can solve it immediately. Now, give them a simple C/C++ program to design. Only 5-10 out of the whole strength will be able to solve the problem. 

Now, Guys, Do you think this should be the scenario? To be a computer scientist or whatever?


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## busyanuj (Jul 13, 2007)

Lucky_star said:
			
		

> this maths was the most f***ing subject I ever had in the last 6 semesters. I don't know what the Fourier transform, laplace, and a hell lot got to do with Computer Science.  That to with high credit points. Means you have to score well in these papers.
> .
> .
> .
> ...



get on with programming and implementing complex algorithms such as image/pattern recognition/matching and other numerous areas. you'll find your laplace fourier and other maths in there.


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## ranjan2001 (Jul 13, 2007)

αNerd said:
			
		

> I just had a dekko on an article in which it was remarked that Maths isnt necessary to become a computer scientist.


I voted no, 
but I meant "its not necessary" 
bcoz 
all the science we have today is partly due to creative thinking & thats not ruled by our logic instead its ruled by our illogical side of the brain & our illogic side is far more capable than our logics, its just a matter of understanding ur capability & utilizing it for the purpose.


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