# Is there any worth to National pride?



## Desmond (Feb 7, 2013)

I was watching this video of George Carlin :



If you are low on bandwidth (or too lazy to watch the whole video), he says :

*www.faisalalmutar.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/george-carlin-ethnic-national-pride.jpg

We may say that we are "Proud to be an Indian", but exactly are we proud of? IMHO, its just a catch phrase that people say because everyone is saying the same. Everyone else in every other country is probably saying the same about their own country.

So, what is national pride worth and why are we taught the same in schools, etc when it is merely an accident of birth?


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## Hrishi (Feb 7, 2013)

Well , we contribute to the national pride . Don't we ?
Say, If we do something wrong , it'' hurt the pride of nation.If we do something right , it'll improve the pride of nation.
Now , the contribution made to it on a large scale may be very minute or small but still every one amongst is responsible for who we are .(Indian).
Consider the same stuff on a small scale basis , like a Team of Players.It'll make some sense.

Its a controversial topic , though and these are just my 2 cents . But IMO , it matters upto an Extent.


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## Desmond (Feb 7, 2013)

Well, I brought up this topic because ever since I could think on my own, I have always seen a country (any country) as a piece of land and nothing more. I used to think that I was the only one with such an opinion. When I saw this video, I thought I might not be the only one. No matter what they teach in school, I always kept my opinion about this. For me, it is just a sentiment that has been inculcated over time and made so common that everyone thinks the same. I wonder that if someone was brought up without the concept of national pride, would they still show pride in their country?

As for sports, I see human beings playing with other human beings and not Indians, Pakistanis, Australians and so forth.


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## Gen.Libeb (Feb 7, 2013)

@Desmond David - Haven't watched the video but I agree with most of what you  said there about National pride. I guess its just like your parents/their family, you don't get to choose them.

For the sports thing, are you saying you do not cheer for a particular team ?    Not sure what you mean there.


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## Desmond (Feb 7, 2013)

Well, being born to my parents is something natural and inevitable, but being born in India (or any country for that matter) is a fluke. What then should we be proud of? I mean, is it ok to not be proud of ones country or is it possible to choose to do so without any repercussions?

As for sports, I don't follow sports much.


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## pratyush997 (Feb 7, 2013)

Solid Topic!
Thread subscribed!


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## Gen.Libeb (Feb 8, 2013)

DeSmOnD dAvId said:


> What then should we be proud of? I mean, is it ok to not be proud of ones country or is it possible to choose to do so without any repercussions?


I'd think its ok, No one can really force you to take national pride. 



DeSmOnD dAvId said:


> Well, being born to my parents is something natural and inevitable, but being born in India (or any country for that matter) is a fluke.


I don't see how this is different. You could had been born to European parents(or any other) in one of those countries & then you'd have genes/features of those parents.


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## Desmond (Feb 8, 2013)

Gen.Libeb said:


> I'd think its ok, No one can really force you to take national pride.
> 
> 
> I don't see how this is different. You could had been born to European parents(or any other) in one of those countries & then you'd have genes/features of those parents.



Yeah, but it is also possible that your parents move to another country and you be born there. It can also be possible that you be born of mixed race or nationality, what then?

For some reason, I have a feeling that the concept of a country and national borders is a primitive territorial instinct that needs to go.


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## harshilsharma63 (Feb 10, 2013)

I have come over from being a 'part of country' to 'part of a world'. I just can't understand why people keep talking about 'my country', 'my nation' and not 'my world' ? Maybe because it sounds like you want to conquer the world? Even at my college (and I guess that's happening with every college), they keep on saying 'work for your country', 'make your country proud' and all similar stuff, but I always think on the global scale, why not do something for the world, for the mankind rather than one single fu***ng country?

And it's not just about the country and the world, at college, almost all teachers ask for suggestions for their own department, why not ask students to suggest something for the whole college?

Why do we always talk about keeping our own house clean and not about keeping the entire colony clean (I agree, many people actually that).



DeSmOnD dAvId said:


> For some reason, I have a feeling that the concept of a country and national borders is a primitive territorial instinct that needs to go.



That's exactly what I think.


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## Anorion (Feb 10, 2013)

don't agree with that pissed off old american, his country barely has a history
have national pride, not because of of some random accident of birth, but because we have traditions reaching back for many thousands of years... that is parampara... and not talking about stupid rituals, Im talking about traditions such as schools of music, thought, and dance 
a state is just a state of mind, and this emerges and exists before the geographic lines are drawn. the boundries of the states in india roughly follow the boundries of the languages. a nation is not restricted just to it's geographical boundaries. Parsis are a nation, Jews are a nation, Romani are a nation. Our diaspora is Indian no matter where in the world they are. Metal is a nation. doing away with these differences is a cynical view, it will reduce our cultural richness, not improve it.


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## Desmond (Feb 10, 2013)

harshilsharma63 said:


> I have come over from being a 'part of country' to 'part of a world'. I just can't understand why people keep talking about 'my country', 'my nation' and not 'my world' ? Maybe because it sounds like you want to conquer the world? Even at my college (and I guess that's happening with every college), they keep on saying 'work for your country', 'make your country proud' and all similar stuff, but I always think on the global scale, why not do something for the world, for the mankind rather than one single fu***ng country?
> 
> And it's not just about the country and the world, at college, almost all teachers ask for suggestions for their own department, why not ask students to suggest something for the whole college?
> 
> ...



Now we are getting somewhere.

People always tend to forget that we are all human beings first. Nationality, ethnicity, language, religion, caste, etc is all secondary as compared to this. What I think is that since there is no other sentient species other than us, we take humanity for granted. Such a mentality gives rise to racism, castism, etc since rivalry is bound to thrive in such an environment.

I wonder whether such a behaviour to favour ones own kind of people arises from the territorial pack mentality that evolution has not filtered out of us yet. We will always support our own relatives over everyone else who is not a relative of ours. The reason we keep our own house clean and not the country is because people don't really care about the country. They may try to show that they do but in reality very few genuinely care. The rest who think that they care will prefer fighting over something trivial than actually do something for the greater good. 

I think this arises from the fact that people don't know much about what's outside their own country or state for that matter. If people are allowed to mix with more people from other countries, people will value humanity more.



Anorion said:


> don't agree with that pissed off old american, his country barely has a history
> have national pride, not because of of some random accident of birth, but because we have traditions reaching back for many thousands of years... that is parampara... and not talking about stupid rituals, Im talking about traditions such as schools of music, thought, and dance
> a state is just a state of mind, and this emerges and exists before the geographic lines are drawn. the boundries of the states in india roughly follow the boundries of the languages. a nation is not restricted just to it's geographical boundaries. Parsis are a nation, Jews are a nation, Romani are a nation. Our diaspora is Indian no matter where in the world they are. Metal is a nation. doing away with these differences is a cynical view, it will reduce our cultural richness, not improve it.



Indeed, but so is everyone else about their own country. What makes our pride any different (or better)?


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## whitestar_999 (Feb 10, 2013)

pride is not negative in its basic sense,false/extreme pride is.we can not change past & so we can't just set aside all cultural differences just like that.every culture has some positive points & negative points & every person has the right to feel proud about his culture's positive points.only when a person forgets about his culture's negative points then his pride takes a negative meaning.pride is not a quality which can be compared like better pride,it is only either positive or negative.two persons from two different cultures having positive pride about their nation/culture can co-exist peacefully but not those with negative pride.


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## harshilsharma63 (Feb 10, 2013)

> I think this arises from the fact that people don't know much about what's outside their own country or state for that matter. If people are allowed to mix with more people from other countries, people will value humanity more.



Agree.


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## Hrishi (Feb 10, 2013)

Anorion said:


> don't agree with that pissed off old american, his country barely has a history
> have national pride, not because of of some random accident of birth, but because we have traditions reaching back for many thousands of years... that is parampara... and not talking about stupid rituals, Im talking about traditions such as schools of music, thought, and dance
> a state is just a state of mind, and this emerges and exists before the geographic lines are drawn. the boundries of the states in india roughly follow the boundries of the languages. a nation is not restricted just to it's geographical boundaries. Parsis are a nation, Jews are a nation, Romani are a nation. Our diaspora is Indian no matter where in the world they are. Metal is a nation. doing away with these differences is a cynical view, it will reduce our cultural richness, not improve it.



This.


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## mitraark (Feb 14, 2013)

There was an episode in House MD, a billionaire programmer, he realised one day that there was too much inequality in the society, his family are living lavishly whereas several homeless people were hardly getting to eat in the streets. He started donating vigourously, giving away millions to charity, shelter homes, basically anyone who came with a financial problem to him. He left his large home and started living in a small apartment, which made his wife children leave him, but he was content that he was living with whatever he needed, and carrying on, and that surplus would go to the needy. One day fainted and  had to be taken to the hospital where he was treat for minor exhaustion and malnutrition, and was to be released in a couple of days. In the meantime he donated a significant amount to the hospital as well. Dr. House noticed his erratic behaviour, managed to make him donate 100,000$ to his "work" just by asking once. This made House sure this was abnormal, and finally it was revealed that the guy had some sort of medical condition which made him so eager to give. After he was cured for that, he rescinded all the donations. House asked him about the money he promised, but he refused. Yes there were TB infected people, blind children in Indonesia who could be in need of money, but spending for your family, it's not being selfish, it's being responsible.

Similarly, one might say why we support a country and not humanity as whole, but each one contributing to their own country's pride would eventually result in the progress of mankind itself. The feeling would foster the urge to do better for own people works well.


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## ico (Feb 16, 2013)

I'm proud of the fact that India's contribution to the world is zero.


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## sam_738844 (Feb 16, 2013)

^^0...Aryabhatta?


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## harshilsharma63 (Feb 16, 2013)

sam_738844 said:


> ^^0...Aryabhatta?



:,


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## Desmond (Feb 20, 2013)

What is the point of national pride on basis of historical achievements and contributions during a time when the concept of a nation (republic) was not even known? The portion of land now known as India was a bunch of kingdoms and all those who had contributed to science, mathematics, astronomy, etc in that time were in their respective kingdoms. But the kingdoms are ancient history and are no longer in existence. We are one nation now. All our achievements after becoming a republic counts towards modern national development.


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## Anorion (Feb 20, 2013)

^it's not historical achievements, everyone does not want to build cities of cement and glass, some may still choose to live in mud houses.
we have two schools of classical music, hindustani and carnatic, flourishing, at times in the same state (karnataka). this is not hundred year old achievement, it is a ongoing achievement of hundreds of years.


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## Desmond (Feb 20, 2013)

Every country has its own classic musical art form, what makes ours so much better than theirs?


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## Anorion (Feb 20, 2013)

we have 2


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## sujoyp (Feb 20, 2013)

I feel proud of my country only for its communal harmony . People in other country feel surprised when they find HIndu,Muslim,Sikh,Christan,Buddhist all living together ...still there is peace  

Culture..mmm not that happy coz it did not improve with time and some people feel proud with following all those bad rituals ..specially dowry, showoff in parties and marriages which nearly is a waste of all savings of a father...which are also the sole reason of killing baby girls

One thing I dont quit understand...if Sunita williams goes into space after doing a NASA job for 15 years ...y should be India proud of her?? what contribution she gave here. rather then improving our scintific research these guys go to other country to contribute and we feel proud of them..strange


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## Desmond (Feb 20, 2013)

Anorion said:


> we have 2



None of which are very celebrated. Carnatic lesser than Hindustani.



sujoyp said:


> I feel proud of my country only for its communal harmony . People in other country feel surprised when they find HIndu,Muslim,Sikh,Christan,Buddhist all living together ...still there is peace
> 
> Culture..mmm not that happy coz it did not improve with time and some people feel proud with following all those bad rituals ..specially dowry, showoff in parties and marriages which nearly is a waste of all savings of a father...which are also the sole reason of killing baby girls
> 
> One thing I dont quit understand...if Sunita williams goes into space after doing a NASA job for 15 years ...y should be India proud of her?? what contribution she gave here. rather then improving our scintific research these guys go to other country to contribute and we feel proud of them..strange



That peace is more like a facade to show in propaganda and the media. In reality there is a tension among the communities (religious or otherwise). Just imagine what it takes to start a communal riot over here.

As for Sunita Williams, she is of American nationality and not Indian at all, except for ancestry.


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## sujoyp (Feb 20, 2013)

^^ yaah but peace is still there...its only those ideot politicians who start the flame...else we r cool with everyone


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## Bhargav Simha (Mar 4, 2013)

National pride and such stuff seem B.S to me. People use these words and ideals to feels part of a group.
This about this, a people have been saying they are patriotic for ever, when the divide (or want to) into  another country or state (exakistan or telangana).
They suddenly start becoming patriotic to a new one and try to hate the old one with all their heart.
Thats patriotism in a nut shell....
P.S: How come ppl get more patriotic when 11 people who we dont even know personally, win a world cup, just because they are from india..... However when its time to elect, country means for **** and ppl start voting for their caste..religion etc even if the guy is an ass who will f*** the country (ppl like Jagan or any congress leader for the matter), coz they dont believe in rest of indians who are not their caste religion etc... even if he is your childhood friend.


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## RCuber (Mar 4, 2013)

ico said:


> I'm proud of the fact that India's contribution to the world is zero.



LOL I thought you posted something sarcastically, I didn't realize till I quoted you for the reply. good one.  

There are many contribution to the world by Indians in the past, but now they get noticed only when media makes a fuss of it. there is more shame in this country and things to be proud of. I would be proud only when every child gets a good meal, proper education and healthcare.

also don't directly quote politician's names for your own safety.


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## quicky008 (Mar 4, 2013)

Yes there is,provided of course you're a liar and a cheat and want to make a career in politics,then manifesting (fake) national pride will be your key to success-it is one of the most widely used techniques to get rich quick


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## Desmond (Mar 5, 2013)

Its not about politics. The concept of a nation as a whole is something I find to be primitive. Without the nation, neither will the pride nor the politics associated with it exist. 

Suppose if I find an uninhabited island (not under the jurisdiction of any country) with the highest yield of coconuts and establish my own country there along with a couple of people under me, name it Coconutopia and the people develop a pride for the highest yield of coconuts in the world. But it is still an arbitrary piece of land.

I believe that Humans, regardless of how developed we think we are, are still animals. And a country is a territorial instinct not unlike that as practiced by lesser animals. As enlightened and wise creatures, I believe that Humans need to be above petty things like politics. A country does exist as a cog in the machine of international politics.


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## Gen.Libeb (Mar 6, 2013)

DeSmOnD dAvId said:


> Its not about politics. The concept of a nation as a whole is something I find to be primitive. Without the nation, neither will the pride nor the politics associated with it exist.
> 
> Suppose if I find an uninhabited island (not under the jurisdiction of any country) with the highest yield of coconuts and establish my own country there along with a couple of people under me, name it Coconutopia and the people develop a pride for the highest yield of coconuts in the world. But it is still an arbitrary piece of land.
> 
> I believe that Humans, regardless of how developed we think we are, are still animals. And a country is a territorial instinct not unlike that as practiced by lesser animals. As enlightened and wise creatures, I believe that Humans need to be above petty things like politics. A country does exist as a cog in the machine of international politics.



So what are you suggesting,  merge all nations of the world into one big country  or just to lose the fake sense of pride ?


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## Desmond (Mar 6, 2013)

What I mean to say is why be proud of a piece of land divided over political squabbling.


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## Anorion (Jun 17, 2013)

"...the ideal man of India is not the magnanimous man of Greece or the valiant of Europe, but the free man of spirit, who has attained insight into the universal source by rigid discipline and practice of disinterested virtues, who has freed himself from the prejudices of his time and place. It is *India's pride* that she has clung fast to this ideal and produced in every generation and every part of the country, from the time of rsis of the Upanishads and Buddha to Ramakrishna and Gandhi, men who strove successfully to realize this ideal."
Dr S Radhakrishnan in _Eastern Religion and Western Thought_


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## Desmond (Jun 17, 2013)

Anorion said:


> "...the ideal man of India is not the magnanimous man of Greece or the valiant of Europe, but the free man of spirit, who has attained insight into the universal source by rigid discipline and practice of disinterested virtues, who has freed himself from the prejudices of his time and place. It is *India's pride* that she has clung fast to this ideal and produced in every generation and every part of the country, from the time of rsis of the Upanishads and Buddha to Ramakrishna and Gandhi, men who strove successfully to realize this ideal."
> Dr S Radhakrishnan in _Eastern Religion and Western Thought_



But that observation is out of time and is the observation of one man. How much of this is valid among the men of today? No ones mind transcends beyond petty matters of bare survival and greed. All that everyone has is a false sense of pride as taught (indoctrinated/brainwashed) in our schools. How many people even know what to be proud of?

Edit : 





> It is *India's pride*



By India's pride, he obviously means the people, since a piece of land is pretty much incapable of feeling pride of any form. Look at the citizens of India today and tell if they even know what Mr. Radhakrishnan is talking about here. They will probably nod and agree with zero clue of what's going on.


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## RohanM (Jul 9, 2013)

Pride goes to Humanity...


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## Desmond (Jul 12, 2013)

RohanM said:


> Pride goes to Humanity...



Amen!


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## Extreme Gamer (Jul 12, 2013)

Rishi. said:


> Well , we contribute to the national pride . Don't we ?
> Say, If we do something wrong , it'' hurt the pride of nation.If we do something right , it'll improve the pride of nation.
> Now , the contribution made to it on a large scale may be very minute or small but still every one amongst is responsible for who we are .(Indian).
> Consider the same stuff on a small scale basis , like a Team of Players.It'll make some sense.
> ...



The way I see it, humans are just feeding into their own fabrications (like religion). National pride was created by humans and still exists because of humans. If humans become globalists (inevitable once we master space), this national pride will evolve into "Earth pride" or "global pride", so to speak.

Hell, when people are still proud about minor things like belonging to a certain community or about descending from a certain lineage, how far can National pride be?

I'm not against having pride for belonging to a certain country or anything. The thing is you're celebrating the achievements of your community and appreciating what your community has done in this world. And it isn't like you lose your own sense of identity and achievement when you celebrate the achievements of your country.

Think about it, why would fans of various sports teams be proud of what those teams achieve? They could just clap and congratulate those teams instead of actually celebrating with pride and joy.


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## Anorion (Jul 12, 2013)

Nope.jpg
Just like there are diff habitats or wildlife in national parks, the differences in humans is in need of conservation, it should be cultivated and celebrated. If they amalgamate into one, we will be no diff than a beehive or anthill. The danger of too much communication is that brains will tend to think the same thing, and get stuck there. 
There are geographic countours that shape our existence across time, you can look beyond artificial boundries to the actual land and the kind of resources it offers to human consumption. 
Historically is even now, not just then. Not fair and lovely but silk, ink, fruits, spices... That kind of stuff. Ionno mebbe Indians are more lactose tolerant than other countries? Paneer pride!


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## Extreme Gamer (Jul 12, 2013)

Anorion said:


> Nope.jpg
> Just like there are diff habitats or wildlife in national parks, the differences in humans is in need of conservation, it should be cultivated and celebrated. If they amalgamate into one, we will be no diff than a beehive or anthill. The danger of too much communication is that brains will tend to think the same thing, and get stuck there.
> There are geographic countours that shape our existence across time, you can look beyond artificial boundries to the actual land and the kind of resources it offers to human consumption.
> Historically is even now, not just then. Not fair and lovely but silk, ink, fruits, spices... That kind of stuff. Ionno mebbe Indians are more lactose tolerant than other countries? Paneer pride!



Well our sentient nature assures that in spite of amalgamation of national pride into global pride, our individual thought and expression will not go away.

Until a 1984-like negative utopia is fabricated, the hive mind will not happen.

I'm not a supporter of national pride or anything. I personally think that national pride can go to ****. But at the same time I don't see anything wrong in celebrating your group identity.


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## mikael_schiffer (Jul 14, 2013)

Lemme give you all a viewpoint from the north-east India..

Technically we are Indian, we fall under Indian territory because we were British territory in the 1800s and when the British left India, they gave us a choice to be part of India or be under British colony like Hong Kong, Australia, South Africa etc

We chose neither.. we said we will be independent. But Indian govt under Nehru had their own colonial plans.



> The NNC secretary T. Sakhrie had expressed fears in his letter to Gandhi that the Indian government might use military force to occupy the Naga territory by force. Gandhi assured the Naga delegation that he would go to Kohima, and he would be "the first to shot before any Naga is killed".


-- source -->Samaddar, Ranabir (2004). The Politics of Dialogue: Living Under the Geopolitical Histories of War and Peace. Ashgate. pp. 171–173. 
But Gandhiji got assasinated and Nehru and the Gang enslaved the region..



> Long before Muammar Gaddafi bombed his own people, IAF fighters in March 1966 strafed and dropped incendiary bombs on Aizawl, now Mizoram's capital, to crush the Mizo insurgency.
> 
> The bombing, which marked the beginning of horrific atrocities committed by Indian armed forces, was never reported in the media and isn't acknowledged by New Delhi.
> 
> But the wounds still fester and Mizos are now demanding an apology.


Gaddafi in Mizoram: Aizawl Assault | Sinlung

 FYI, my grandfather's backyard has a huge bomb crater which is now a small fish pond. Well actually the backyard was his original house, just that it was wiped out by bombs..
 Before the bombing, there was Mass rape , torture,hanging,pure genocide etc by the Sikh Battalion in major villages. They raped women and children,small children, girls who didnt even reach puberty, in front of their parents.. Hitler was nothing compared to the atrocities Indian Armed Forces

Under these circumstances, the North east people were enslaved by the Indian Govt.
We are an ignored lot,by the entire country and i bet half of TDF members cant evenlocate 5 of the 7 north east states.

Our religion (Christianity) is different 
Our culture is different
Our racial features are different
Our diet is different
Our mentality is different

Now i ask you guys--

Should i proudly recite the national anthem? 
Should i say "I am proud to be Indian" ??
...and should i be criticized for not being India-patriotic?

Kindly reply.....


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## Desmond (Jul 14, 2013)

From my viewpoint, the patriotism that we have is conditioned into us from schools and if you do not show patriotism, you will be called a traitor or a pakistani or something equivalent, no one wants that. It is common that group mentality is very commonplace in India and people will tend to see what other people are following than question what they believe. Patriotism is something that they instill into soldiers so that they will give up their lives willingly.

Its sad to note the atrocities of the IAF. It is even sadder that no one in any other part of the country knows about this. You don't have to be patriotic, but since you are living in the Indian territory, you will have to follow the same rules whether you like them or not. You can choose to remain aloof from Indian celebrations, but they will brand you as anti-Indian and your people will be tormented even more in whichever part of the country you go. What can you do then?

I hear that the situation in the NE region is pretty volatile still, is it really?


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## Extreme Gamer (Jul 14, 2013)

mikael_schiffer said:


> Lemme give you all a viewpoint from the north-east India..
> 
> Technically we are Indian, we fall under Indian territory because we were British territory in the 1800s and when the British left India, they gave us a choice to be part of India or be under British colony like Hong Kong, Australia, South Africa etc
> 
> ...



There are 8 states.

Meghalaya, Manipur, Sikkim, Arunachal Pradesh, Tripura, Assam and Nagaland and Mizoram.

And no, I didn't check Wikipedia.

BTW, I thought the north-east had a Buddhists majority?

I understand your feelings, but assuming India sets you free, do you not think China would try and occupy your territory, extending their claims from just Arunachal all the way to to Tripura?

Your population with respect to the rest of the nation means that you will not have an army strong enough to defend you in such a situation. You would have to conscript the youth, which would probably go against the principle of freedom.

I do agree with you though that the north-east has been highly neglected. Stupid north & northwest-indian politicians only care about the large states that ensure a house majority. It's sad how Manmohan Paaji is representing a seat from Assam, but he barely pays attention to that region 



DeSmOnD dAvId said:


> From my viewpoint, the patriotism that we have is conditioned into us from schools and if you do not show patriotism, you will be called a traitor or a pakistani or something equivalent, no one wants that. It is common that group mentality is very commonplace in India and people will tend to see what other people are following than question what they believe. Patriotism is something that they instill into soldiers so that they will give up their lives willingly.
> 
> Its sad to note the atrocities of the IAF. It is even sadder that no one in any other part of the country knows about this. You don't have to be patriotic, but since you are living in the Indian territory, you will have to follow the same rules whether you like them or not. You can choose to remain aloof from Indian celebrations, but they will brand you as anti-Indian and your people will be tormented even more in whichever part of the country you go. What can you do then?
> 
> I hear that the situation in the NE region is pretty volatile still, is it really?



I stay aloof from Indian celebrations. I haven't been branded a traitor yet.


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## Desmond (Jul 14, 2013)

Extreme Gamer said:


> I stay aloof from Indian celebrations. I haven't been branded a traitor yet.



Well, if people knew that you do and if you voice your opinions, they will.

BTW, I haven't attended any independence day or republic day celebration for the past 7 years. For me its just another holiday and I spend it sleeping.


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## mikael_schiffer (Jul 14, 2013)

@extreme gamer- I dunno about you all, but we north easterners consider only 7 states. As in Seven-Sister States. Either Assam or Sikkim is excluded. Sikkim is almost nepali-tibetan and Assam is almost bengali.
Buddhism is non existent except for the region near China...like Sikkim and Arunachal. Christianity is a majority, with Nagaland and Mizoram at 90% Christianity(the other 10% are Bengali,Assamese,Bangladeshi immigrants who are mostly Muslim) I dont think any other Indian state has such "religious monopoly"

As for staying aloof from Indian celebrations like Independence day, i think majority of Indians stay aloof. For most of them, its just another office/school holiday.



> I understand your feelings, but assuming India sets you free, do you not think China would try and occupy your territory, extending their claims from just Arunachal all the way to to Tripura?


 China doesnt have any legit reason to capture the entire north east like Tibet. They may take up Arunachal Pradesh,because it was Chinese territory centuries ago. Moreover, Arunchali people are buddhist majority,and they have Chinese citizenship+they want to be part of China,seeing that India hasnt done **** for development since British left us.
 My Arunachali friend's name is Chow Sengwein Namchoom. When an exchange student from Beijeing came to JNU, Delhi, that Chinese boy had the same friggin name and sirname!! Mother promise i **** u not, this is true story. I cant forget the laughs we had that day!

Sometimes we North-easterners wish the British had never left India. Damn you Hitler, if it wasn't for World War 2, British would be comfortably controlling  the North-east, like Australia and Hong Kong. The British were nice to us, they brought literacy,modernization,and spread the gospel of Jesus Christ and introduced us to a developed world. The British were never bad to us. Ok they took our freedom, but so did the Indians...
British people... Please come back 
Better to be a slave of British than Indian...


----------



## mediator (Aug 7, 2013)

@Mikael - What was the religion of your people before Britishers? Which region did you pledge allegiance to before Britishers? What was your diet before Britishers? What was your language before Britishers? And yes, can you explain me your mentality before Britishers?

From Indonesia, to Bali, to South America, India etc one can find the Indian architecture all along. Keep going back, who was the founding father of the philosophy in your region? What was the thought process and how deep?

In NCERT, they said Bhagat Singh was a terrorist, now they have started promoting Rahul Gandhi, we are taught that Mughals created beautful designs and architectures, that Qutub-Minar was built by Aibak. Now the researches shows clear examples, facts and proofs, on how most of the monuments that we are being "told" were built by Mughals were built by Indian Kings. You can google for "Dhruv Stambh" and their significance -> Qutub Minar

You can read the works of David Frawly, Stephen-Knapp etc, Francious Gautier etc.

Which other country can you find which glorifies the invaders?

I'm sure that had we been ruled by Mughals for another 100 years then Jantar Mantar, Konark Temple, Iron pillar would all be called as some "mughal creation". Similarly, do you know the extent of damage done by Christianity? Please read the "minutes speech" alone by Lord Macaulay himself.

We are told that British used English to 'educate' Indians. But why not Sanskrit which unites entire India, a mother of many of the world languages? What was the real purpose of injecting English in our veins?



			
				macaulay said:
			
		

> In the past, the educationist named Lord Macaulay wanted to do away with the spiritual heritage of India. He stated, “We must at present do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern; a class of persons, Indian in blood and colour, but English in taste, in opinions, in morals, and in intellect.”
> 
> “I have no knowledge of either Sanskrit or Arabic. But I have done what I could to form a
> correct estimate of their value…. I have never found one among them (Sanskrit or arabic scholars) who could deny that a single shelf of a good European library was worth the whole native literature of India and Arabia.”
> ...



The Max-Muller Syndrome istorting Hinduism (Part 1) | The Chakra News

The Max Muller Syndrome: Deceiving Hindus (Part 2) | The Chakra News


Most of the Indians disapprove of Nehru's actions and participation in breaking of India in 1947. Many people are coming to terms at how Nehru used an "Indian Name" to appease the Indians and Gandhi appeased the muslims (Moplah, Ali Brothers etc). But still in books they are being shown how nice and idealistic they were.

Who is writing these books and why are they distorting the truth? Why a loser like Rahul Gandhi (who think India is a beehive, stated that he is ashamed of being an Indian, 70% of Punjab youths are drug addicts where the report said that 70% of drug addicts are youths and now mocks the poor by saying "Poverty is state of mind"; he was absent during Ramdev and Anna Hazare Anshan and celebrating in Swiss/America; absent during Uttarakhand's floods and celebrating his birthday in Sweden/Spain and partying after 26/11 attacks) being promoted in NCERT and the real heroes degraded?  What is the problem if Gita and Indian history is taught in schools? Can't a country teach her own philosophy and history to her own sons? Did a term like "religion" ever existed in India before the abrahamic faiths (class of theism which defines god) invaded India? If you are conditioned by the term religion, then what aren't there terms like aurobindoism, sri-ravishankarism, vivekanandism like you have for buddhism, jainism? Who coined Hinduism?

I don't know about Sikh battalion raping North Eastern Girls. But, I would like you to give proper reads for it, as apart from military code of conducts, sikhs do have a high standards of morality and service to the nation.

Who divided the Indians as "Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs" for all these (mahavira, buddha, 10 gurus of sikh, 1000s of rishis for Upanishads/Veda/Puranas/Tantras) are gurus orginating from India?  Even before these gurus, there existed many other gurus like Parashuram, Droacharya, Kripacharya? Have we ever heard of terms like Dronacharyaism, Parashuramaism etc? You can't help but laugh at the utter stupidity of a mindset who created these terminologies, mapped them as "religion" and those who blindly followed without questioning it. 

Had there been something called Dronacharya-ism and the mentality of Arjun as weak as that of people in today's "modern age", he couldn't have fought a dharmic war, but instead followed Dronacharya blindly like many religious people do and behave towards the 'commandments' and religious laws which are often dividing te humanity between us/them, believers/non-believers.


So much distortion and poison injected in our brains which clouds the orginal meaning, the terminologies and aims at creating an inferiority complex amongst the Indians starting back from Mughals and British, would it be right for Indians to give up and surrender to that poison? Would you surrender to a disease which is weakening you or would you rather fight back?




			
				mikael said:
			
		

> Now i ask you guys--
> 
> 1.Should i proudly recite the national anthem?
> 2.Should i say "I am proud to be Indian" ??
> 3. ...and should i be criticized for not being India-patriotic?


1. Upto you, for Sindh is not a part of India, and we need to know who this "adhinayak" is.
2. The whole world is looking at India today. NASA, Russia, China etc all are researching upon Veda and trying to induce Sanskrit into their advancements except for India. Go back as far as you can, learn your roots and about your forefathers and how hey died for India. You should be proud of being an Indian!

3. Learn as much as you can about India, from the works of Fa-Hein, Huein-Tsang, Japanese explorers and philosophers, works of Aurobindo, Vivekanand etc before you talk about India!


From your reply, it is clear that you are not mad at Indians, but Indian politicians and you are very much affected by the turn of events that has shaken India starting from early ADs! You need to decondition and start looking again.

65+ years of Congress rule has destroyed India as much as Britishers did or may be more than that, looted India, caused more than a dozen communal riots, ignored Uttarakhand even after repeated CAG and MeT department warnings where the sources say that atleast 1 lakhs have been killed, raped Sikhs during 1984 (a genocide that it was, not a riot), divided India on religious and cast basis etc. So should I keep crying about me, accept the injustice or voice proactively for India, to establish her once again like a true Indian? Should I debate whether I should be an Indian and if there is any pride in it, while debating "Is there any worth to the National Pride" or should I being an Indian, define "How India should be"?


I'm sure in your own house you must be thinking and idealising as to how your house should look, what cars you should own, what lifestyle you should have. Why a different mentality towards your own Nation? 


Your solidarity, love and loyalty defines the foundation of your own home. A cheating wife/husband can easily break that home. Then why a different attitude towards your own nation? Indians have already faced that with the result of Pakistan, Bangladesh etc. You should understand the feelings of Indians by now.


Anyways, since you mentioned about Sikh Batallion, I'm curious about your views on how CHristianity is raping the North-East of India and in the past with its present ripple effects destroyed and still destroying Indian history?

Christian Conversions and Terrorism in North-East India - Christian Aggression
Karsevak India: Partial History of Christian Missionary Atrocities

Just research yourself about CHristianity in North-East and southern states like Kerela! 

ANyways, if you knew about Chinese history, you wouldn't call Arunachal to be a part of China. Remove tibet from China and half of China is gone. Just like China is using Paki to weaken India (yes it is) and Paki are thinkin Chinese to be great friends, similarly the politics goes deep in case of Arunachal Pradesh and yes Indian government is doing nothing about it! But I find it sad, that people instead of spreading the Indianness and integrity to fight these external forces which are further trying to break India, are rather discussing "Is there any worth to National pride"! :'(

I don't know how many people in this forum alone goto vote for I have heard cries about that "I don't care/all politicians are same/Nothing can be done/India is ****" and all idiotic pessimism and attitude too much now. These people have no right to be protected by the Indian soldiers anyways.

@Mikael - What was the religion of your people before Britishers? Which region did you pledge allegiance to before Britishers? What was your diet before Britishers? What was your language before Britishers? And yes, can you explain me your mentality before Britishers?

From Indonesia, to Bali, to South America, India etc one can find the Indian architecture all along. Keep going back, who was the founding father of the philosophy in your region? What was the thought process and how deep?

In NCERT, they said Bhagat Singh was a terrorist, now they have started promoting Rahul Gandhi, we are taught that Mughals created beautful designs and architectures, that Qutub-Minar was built by Aibak. Now the researches shows clear examples, facts and proofs, on how most of the monuments that we are being "told" were built by Mughals were built by Indian Kings. You can google for "Dhruv Stambh" and their significance -> *valmikiresearch.com/Qutab%20Minar.htm

You can read the works of David Frawly, Stephen-Knapp etc, Francious Gautier etc.

Which other country can you find which glorifies the invaders?

I'm sure that had we been ruled by Mughals for another 100 years then Jantar Mantar, Konark Temple, Iron pillar would all be called as some "mughal creation". Similarly, do you know the extent of damage done by Christianity? Please read the "minutes speech" alone by Lord Macaulay himself.

We are told that British used English to 'educate' Indians. But why not Sanskrit which unites entire India, a mother of many of the world languages? What was the real purpose of injecting English in our veins?



			
				macaulay said:
			
		

> In the past, the educationist named Lord Macaulay wanted to do away with the spiritual heritage of India. He stated, “We must at present do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern; a class of persons, Indian in blood and colour, but English in taste, in opinions, in morals, and in intellect.”
> 
> “I have no knowledge of either Sanskrit or Arabic. But I have done what I could to form a
> correct estimate of their value…. I have never found one among them (Sanskrit or arabic scholars) who could deny that a single shelf of a good European library was worth the whole native literature of India and Arabia.”
> ...



*www.chakranews.com/the-max-muller-syndrome-distorting-hinduism-part-1/1348

*www.chakranews.com/the-max-muller-syndrome-deceiving-hindus-part-2/1408


Most of the Indians disapprove of Nehru's actions and participation in breaking of India in 1947. Many people are coming to terms at how Nehru used an "Indian Name" to appease the Indians and Gandhi appeased the muslims (Moplah, Ali Brothers etc). But still in books they are being shown how nice and idealistic they were.

Who is writing these books and why are they distorting the truth? Why a loser like Rahul Gandhi (who think India is a beehive, stated that he is ashamed of being an Indian, 70% of Punjab youths are drug addicts where the report said that 70% of drug addicts are youths and now mocks the poor by saying "Poverty is state of mind"; he was absent during Ramdev and Anna Hazare Anshan and celebrating in Swiss/America; absent during Uttarakhand's floods and celebrating his birthday in Sweden/Spain and partying after 26/11 attacks) being promoted in NCERT and the real heroes degraded?  What is the problem if Gita and Indian history is taught in schools? Can't a country teach her own philosophy and history to her own sons? Did a term like "religion" ever existed in India before the abrahamic faiths (class of theism which defines god) invaded India? If you are conditioned by the term religion, then what aren't there terms like aurobindoism, sri-ravishankarism, vivekanandism like you have for buddhism, jainism? Who coined Hinduism?

I don't know about Sikh battalion raping North Eastern Girls. But, I would like you to give proper reads for it, as apart from military code of conducts, sikhs do have a high standards of morality and service to the nation.

Who divided the Indians as "Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs" for all these (mahavira, buddha, 10 gurus of sikh, 1000s of rishis for Upanishads/Veda/Puranas/Tantras) are gurus orginating from India?  Even before these gurus, there existed many other gurus like Parashuram, Droacharya, Kripacharya? Have we ever heard of terms like Dronacharyaism, Parashuramaism etc? You can't help but laugh at the utter stupidity of a mindset who created these terminologies, mapped them as "religion" and those who blindly followed without questioning it. 

Had there been something called Dronacharya-ism and the mentality of Arjun as weak as that of people in today's "modern age", he couldn't have fought a dharmic war, but instead followed Dronacharya blindly like many religious people do and behave towards the 'commandments' and religious laws which are often dividing te humanity between us/them, believers/non-believers.


So much distortion and poison injected in our brains which clouds the orginal meaning, the terminologies and aims at creating an inferiority complex amongst the Indians starting back from Mughals and British, would it be right for Indians to give up and surrender to that poison? Would you surrender to a disease which is weakening you or would you rather fight back?




			
				mikael said:
			
		

> Now i ask you guys--
> 
> 1.Should i proudly recite the national anthem?
> 2.Should i say "I am proud to be Indian" ??
> 3. ...and should i be criticized for not being India-patriotic?


1. Upto you, for Sindh is not a part of India, and we need to know who this "adhinayak" is.
2. The whole world is looking at India today. NASA, Russia, China etc all are researching upon Veda and trying to induce Sanskrit into their advancements except for India. Go back as far as you can, learn your roots and about your forefathers and how hey died for India. You should be proud of being an Indian!

3. Learn as much as you can about India, from the works of Fa-Hein, Huein-Tsang, Japanese explorers and philosophers, works of Aurobindo, Vivekanand etc before you talk about India!


From your reply, it is clear that you are not mad at Indians, but Indian politicians and you are very much affected by the turn of events that has shaken India starting from early ADs! You need to decondition and start looking again.

65+ years of Congress rule has destroyed India as much as Britishers did or may be more than that, looted India, caused more than a dozen communal riots, ignored Uttarakhand even after repeated CAG and MeT department warnings where the sources say that atleast 1 lakhs have been killed, raped Sikhs during 1984 (a genocide that it was, not a riot), divided India on religious and cast basis etc. So should I keep crying about me, accept the injustice or voice proactively for India, to establish her once again like a true Indian? Should I debate whether I should be an Indian and if there is any pride in it, while debating "Is there any worth to the National Pride" or should I being an Indian, define "How India should be"?


I'm sure in your own house you must be thinking and idealising as to how your house should look, what cars you should own, what lifestyle you should have. Why a different mentality towards your own Nation? 


Your solidarity, love and loyalty defines the foundation of your own home. A cheating wife/husband can easily break that home. Then why a different attitude towards your own nation? Indians have already faced that with the result of Pakistan, Bangladesh etc. You should understand the feelings of Indians by now.


Anyways, since you mentioned about Sikh Batallion, I'm curious about your views on how CHristianity is raping the North-East of India and in the past with its present ripple effects destroyed and still destroying Indian history?

*www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?id=1141970933&type=articles
*karsevakindia.blogspot.in/2011/05/partial-history-of-christian-missionary.html

Just research yourself about CHristianity in North-East and southern states like Kerela! 

ANyways, if you knew about Chinese history, you wouldn't call Arunachal to be a part of China. Remove tibet from China and half of China is gone. Just like China is using Paki to weaken India (yes it is) and Paki are thinkin Chinese to be great friends, similarly the politics goes deep in case of Arunachal Pradesh and yes Indian government is doing nothing about it! But I find it sad, that people instead of spreading the Indianness and integrity to fight these external forces which are further trying to break India, are rather discussing "Is there any worth to National pride"! :'(

I don't know how many people in this forum alone goto vote for I have heard cries about that "I don't care/all politicians are same/Nothing can be done/India is ****" and all idiotic pessimism and attitude too much now. These people have no right to be protected by the Indian soldiers anyways.


----------



## Piyush (Aug 7, 2013)

DeSmOnD dAvId said:


> For some reason, I have a feeling that the concept of a country and national borders is a primitive territorial instinct that needs to go.



Agreed to this. 
But what is an alternative to this scenario? One land nation sounds good but also shelters n number of problems. I mean, I cant even think of starting to list the issues but its not better than having land divided into several nations. That leads to other basketfull of problems. 

There is good possibility of demise either way, so I end up leaving these thoughts at the corner of my mind and continue what I was doing anyways.


----------



## theterminator (Aug 15, 2013)

DeSmOnD dAvId said:


> We may say that we are "Proud to be an Indian", but exactly are we proud of? IMHO, its just a catch phrase that people say because everyone is saying the same. Everyone else in every other country is probably saying the same about their own country.
> 
> So, what is national pride worth and why are we taught the same in schools, etc when it is merely an accident of birth?



Man, your view got me thinking.



Spoiler



Now I'm not celebrating Independence Day today


----------



## Shah (Aug 15, 2013)

DeSmOnD dAvId said:


> What I mean to say is *why be proud of a piece of land divided over political squabbling*.


My exact thought. 


RohanM said:


> Pride goes to Humanity...





theterminator said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm not celebrating Independence Day today


I have never celebrated it. And Neither I do sing the National Anthem nor give a damn about the National Flag.


----------



## theterminator (Aug 15, 2013)

Shah said:


> I have never celebrated it. And Neither I do sing the National Anthem nor give a damn about the National Flag.


Well that can change pretty quickly once you land & kidnapped & tortured in Pakistan . All courtesy mankind .


----------



## Abhinay Pasupuleti (Feb 26, 2021)

Desmond David said:


> Well, being born to my parents is something natural and inevitable, but being born in India (or any country for that matter) is a fluke. What then should we be proud of? I mean, is it ok to not be proud of ones country or is it possible to choose to do so without any repercussions?
> 
> As for sports, I don't follow sports much.





Desmond David said:


> Well, being born to my parents is something natural and inevitable, but being born in India (or any country for that matter) is a fluke. What then should we be proud of? I mean, is it ok to not be proud of ones country or is it possible to choose to do so without any repercussions?
> 
> As for sports, I don't follow sports much.


Its just a piece of land . Very true . Those Patriots who claim they love India ... Dont know what they mean at all ... What do they love ?
The people they bully in their homeland ? The politicians they curse ? The jealousy next door neighbour ? Who do they love ?

I think that's more about programming/evolutionary behaviour than an actual feeling . Everyone is proud of their religion , doesn't matter if they know what their religious values are . Everyone loves their Language , no matter how sexy spanish is . Everyone stand up for their team , no matter how many quarells they have with their own team mates .

I'm sure if those "patriots" are given better living standards in abroad countries , they would surely catch up the next flight

And there are some people who just take up identity as patriots for those who cant associate with any other identity in their lives


----------



## Æsoteric Positron (Feb 27, 2021)

Desmond David said:


> Well, I brought up this topic because ever since I could think on my own, I have always seen a country (any country) as a piece of land and nothing more. I used to think that I was the only one with such an opinion. When I saw this video, I thought I might not be the only one. No matter what they teach in school, I always kept my opinion about this. For me, it is just a sentiment that has been inculcated over time and made so common that everyone thinks the same. I wonder that if someone was brought up without the concept of national pride, would they still show pride in their country?
> 
> As for sports, I see human beings playing with other human beings and not Indians, Pakistanis, Australians and so forth.


Well, its really a nice way to think about countries and certainly stops the vicious behavior of enmity between people of different countries. But on a more practical level I really like what is written in the history books, "Countries are acceptance of having similarity and commonality, not only physical and historical ones, but also cultural, religious and philosophical ones".

If you are living in America, its not 100% sure that you are a believer in freedom of several kinds, not certain that you a white / an american african, and nothing can be said that you are given basic education. BUT chances are YOU believe in freedom of speech, are a white male, and are well educated.(if you are an Indian you are a hindu and probably in this forum  )

Living in a country invokes brotherhood, and its even required for survivability. Remember who we are? Yeah, social animals.

Me? I'll probably not be "proud of India" (India doesn't care if I am proud about her, does she? Is a child ever proud of his parent?), but I'll fight tooth and nail to someone who makes fun of this country and its "Aam admi".

PS. sorry @Desmond David for quoting such an old a$$ post.


----------



## Extreme Gamer (Feb 27, 2021)

Wow, how my perspective has changed since 2013....


----------



## Desmond (Feb 27, 2021)

Æsoteric Positron said:


> PS. sorry @Desmond David for quoting such an old a$$ post.


It's okay. Necrobumping is discouraged only when nothing new is being added to a discussion.


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## Æsoteric Positron (Mar 2, 2021)

Nationalism in a nutshell?


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## Desmond (Mar 2, 2021)

Æsoteric Positron said:


> Nationalism in a nutshell?
> 
> View attachment 20023


I don't follow.


----------



## Æsoteric Positron (Mar 3, 2021)

Desmond David said:


> I don't follow.


I meant that, according to some, nationalism is just a way to appeal to us psychologically ie. its just a propaganda, by the gov. just to make us do our duties properly eg. giving taxes, or to get us motivated to go in army, or to not overthrow our gov. etc etc.

The circular above is objectively trying to do just that, appealing to us psychologically to say "Proud to be an parent who sends his child to this school" and thus trying to make us give the fees.


----------



## Desmond (Mar 3, 2021)

That text does not seem to have very nationalist language. Though I get what you mean.

One more thing I think everyone should note is that there is a difference between the definition of the terms country and nation. A country is a political entity which is land defined by the national borders, the group of states, the government, etc. On the other hand, a nation is the group of people living (mostly) in a country, this can usually be closely associated with ethnicity. As such, by definition it is possible for a nation to have no country (ex. Kurds, Native Americans, etc.). 

So, basically when you cross the border out of India, you are no longer in the country of India, but no matter where in the world you go, you will always be an Indian national.


----------



## Extreme Gamer (Mar 7, 2021)

Videos like these make me wonder if I want to _have_ national pride in the first place


----------



## RumbaMon19 (Mar 7, 2021)

Extreme Gamer said:


> Videos like these make me wonder if I want to _have_ national pride in the first place



why mix politics with national feelings? that guy was probably some die hard fan. and whatever is happening right now, is mistake of both hardcore Modi *Mod Edit* and blindly overproud "Farmers"

And if we see, this was actually a small crack, which caused the fall of wall. Opposition used this opportunity and blazed the fire. Everyone is at fault.

Also, Why are we calling farmers "Anndatta"? for those who believe in GOD or Supreme power,The supreme power does not charge for anything, Because it does not believe in materialistic things. They are rather shaming The GOD, by becoming one themselves. Athiests would have clearly got idea of what I mean. They do not have right to be called that. They are not giving there harvest fot free afterall.

Likewise, A taxpayer should be called "kardatta" Because he is basically giving the taxes, of which majority of percentage goes in  giving Subsidy, to the farmers, for which they are fighting. So ultimately, we are GOD for them. how can they use that abbreviation?

Then this thing gets mixed with politics. If we see and do some research, All those Anti-BJP MLAs who lost earlier, are now standing with farmers, to gain there sympathy, as well as defame government. And those in power, are acting so ignorant, making matters worse.

The image of the country is at stake due to this BS.

-----------------

Notional pride is completely subjective. Those who are happy by how the nation is building, and giving  them opportunity, should be proud of it. Those who feel the country is BS and feel the need, there is no need to proud about it. After all pride and ego doesnt help practically.

Some leave the country, Become famous outside and then forget it. Not gonna name that person, But he studied through Indian Scholarships and aids, and today when he has achieved something big, He is no longer Indian citizen, He is now an "Proud American Citizen". But again, not his mistake as it was not his choice to be born in this country. But he should not forget that he studied through Indian Aid, and not American aid who made fun of him.


----------



## Desmond (Mar 7, 2021)

While I understand that we are in the "Fight club" section and the arguments here can get heated, let cooler heads prevail. No need to name call someone for their political preferences. You are free to have any opinion, but using neutral language makes it easier for us moderators


----------



## quicky008 (Mar 8, 2021)

most people who profess to be patriots/modi-bhakts and other such nonsense are in fact the biggest traitors of the country.


----------



## Æsoteric Positron (Mar 8, 2021)

quicky008 said:


> most people who profess to be modi-bhakts and other such nonsense are in fact the biggest traitors of the country.


and its democratic values....


----------



## Deleted member 345628 (Mar 8, 2021)

I think the concept of Patriotism works only with respect to frame of reference . Its more of a psychological feeling than anything .If a giant monster was to invade in a forest , different types of tribes in the forest would unite and fight back the monster .On the other hand , If some stranger were to join a tribe community they would suspect danger in terms of survival instinct and wouldn't trust him/her .I don't find any patriotism in my University itself , there would be huge differences between south indians / north indians , Yet most of them claim they are patriots . You will hardly find both of the groups in a community . But if pakistani too were there , then Im sure the difference such as North/South Indian would fade away and become Pakistani / Indian .


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## RumbaMon19 (Mar 8, 2021)

saintmode said:


> I think the concept of Patriotism works only with respect to frame of reference . Its more of a psychological feeling than anything .If a giant monster was to invade in a forest , different types of tribes in the forest would unite and fight back the monster .On the other hand , If some stranger were to join a tribe community they would suspect danger in terms of survival instinct and wouldn't trust him/her .I don't find any patriotism in my University itself , there would be huge differences between south indians / north indians , Yet most of them claim they are patriots . You will hardly find both of the groups in a community . But if pakistani too were there , then Im sure the difference such as North/South Indian would fade away and become Pakistani / Indian .



Exactly. To the point. Right now we are "Indian" and in future when national level problems will go like Pakistani and Chinese etc, then we would start dividing on the basis of language. Then you will see people calling themselves Tamil or Kannada or Punjabi or haryanvi. So people like splitting up.

Patriotism was created back in the day to get rid of Britishers. Now it may be used to split nations.

Edit:- perhaps it is used, but not in a heavy way, as right now bigger probs are there to face. Once they go, these will pop up


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## Desmond (Mar 8, 2021)

I think you are mixing up nationalism and patriotism.


----------



## quicky008 (Mar 8, 2021)

Who wants to get the hell out of India but cannot either due to lack of funds and/or support from his family members?

Many of my friends(who have money) are happily settled abroad and are leading the good life(apparently that is),but i am stuck here in this miserable country,with a piss-poor job with no hopes or signs of improvement in the foreseeable future.

Sometimes this really causes a great deal of depression that lasts for days on end.Its like a dark storm-cloud that causes no end of misery for as long as it lasts.

I dont understand why some people including my friends and colleagues rejoice like there's no tomorrow when some cricket/football/hockey team wins some match for india-its not as though their winning/losing a match would make any difference to their lives anyway,they would still have to go about their lives in the same way as they always do and relive their frustrations,grief and tribulations day after day with practically no hopes for any improvement or progress at any point during their lifetimes-only the players/their sponsors etc involved with the game get richer and their bank accounts get more bloated
when they are able to score some victory(or lose,as they get paid anyway no matter what)-nothing changes as far the as lives of ordinary citizens is concerned irrespective of the outcome of any accursed cricket or football match!

Also no matter what these netas,celebs,players etc say,they DON'T give a damn about the misery of their fellow citizens and that's the bottomline! So much for their fake patriotism-i really wish these people would just keel over and die someday and rid the country of their noxious existence!!


----------



## quicky008 (Mar 8, 2021)

This is a (hilarious) example of one such desh bhakth politician engaging in prurient behaviour online:

*www.opindia.com/2021/02/congress-leader-creepy-behaviour-twitter-ananda-cerny-playboy-onlyfans/


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## Extreme Gamer (Mar 8, 2021)

quicky008 said:


> Who wants to get the hell out of India but cannot either due to lack of funds and/or support from his family members?


I can't get out *because* I have funds here


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## TheSloth (Mar 8, 2021)

Extreme Gamer said:


> I can't get out *because* I have funds here


I will gladly take off those funds from your hands, to support a fellow forum member.


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## Nerevarine (Mar 8, 2021)

TheSloth said:


> I will gladly take off those funds from your hands, to support a fellow forum member.


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## quicky008 (Mar 8, 2021)

Extreme Gamer said:


> I can't get out *because* I have funds here


Good for you i guess! But if you really *want* to get out that shouldn't be a deterrent.You can simply transfer those "funds" to some secretive offshore bank account in the bahamas/swiss bank(like in the movies ) and go on to live like a king on foreign shores!


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## Extreme Gamer (Mar 9, 2021)

quicky008 said:


> Good for you i guess! But if you really *want* to get out that shouldn't be a deterrent.You can simply transfer those "funds" to some secretive offshore bank account in the bahamas/swiss bank(like in the movies ) and go on to live like a king on foreign shores!


That's not how it works. Even a guy as rich as Mukesh Ambani cannot go and live abroad and expect to be able to manage his businesses - which FYI are India-based - from an overseas residence.

This isn't about having enough money for FIRE and do whatever you want, but about being actively engaged in the occupation that gives you your daily bread and butter.



TheSloth said:


> I will gladly take off those funds from your hands, to support a fellow forum member.


Sorry, too used to these small luxuries to be able to give it away.


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## quicky008 (Mar 9, 2021)

If you have everything you need right here, there's no reason for you to want to leave it in the first place.

Leaving the country in search of greener pastures overseas is sort of like a pipe dream for those downtrodden folks (like me) who are completely disillusioned by the anti-culturual, anti-civil and anti-humanistic, soul-destroying policies of the government, not to mention the rampant corruption and lawlessness that exists everywhere (coupled with the hatred, jealousy and malice of their fellow countrymen) which have turned their lives into a veritable nightmare, and from which they have no means of escape other than to leave the country altogether!

And they don't have the financial or political clout to buy their way out of such troubles either.They have been "marked" to spend their lives in abject misery from the moment they were born into this god-awful place.


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## Extreme Gamer (Mar 9, 2021)

quicky008 said:


> If you have everything you need right here, there's no reason for you to want to leave it in the first place.
> 
> Leaving the country in search of greener pastures overseas is sort of like a pipe dream for those downtrodden folks (like me) who are completely disillusioned by the anti-culturual, anti-civil and anti-humanistic, soul-destroying policies of the government, not to mention the rampant corruption and lawlessness that exists everywhere (coupled with the hatred, jealousy and malice of their fellow countrymen) which have turned their lives into a veritable nightmare, and from which they have no means of escape other than to leave the country altogether!
> 
> And they don't have the financial or political clout to buy their way out of such troubles either.They have been "marked" to spend their lives in abject misery from the moment they were born into this god-awful place.



I have every reason to want to leave. I know because I've already tasted that forbidden fruit.

Many of the reasons you list are equally valid for me and others like me.  However our reasons are where we differ, obviously due to our substantially varied circumstances.

The best you really can do in this land of crabs and termites is to work on improving your own situation and showing empathy and compassion to those in situations even worse than yours.

The very fact that you can browse reddit and hold a conversation fluently in English shows that you are not nearly as downtrodden as the majority of people who are very poorly off.


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## Nerevarine (Mar 9, 2021)

quicky008 said:


> If you have everything you need right here, there's no reason for you to want to leave it in the first place.
> 
> Leaving the country in search of greener pastures overseas is sort of like a pipe dream for those downtrodden folks (like me) who are completely disillusioned by the anti-culturual, anti-civil and anti-humanistic, soul-destroying policies of the government, not to mention the rampant corruption and lawlessness that exists everywhere (coupled with the hatred, jealousy and malice of their fellow countrymen) which have turned their lives into a veritable nightmare, and from which they have no means of escape other than to leave the country altogether!
> 
> And they don't have the financial or political clout to buy their way out of such troubles either.They have been "marked" to spend their lives in abject misery from the moment they were born into this god-awful place.


I have come to realise its not very difficult to get a job outside india. Try on linkedin


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## quicky008 (Mar 9, 2021)

Is it so, i will take a look at that certainly.


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## TheSloth (Mar 9, 2021)

Nerevarine said:


> I have come to realise its not very difficult to get a job outside india. Try on linkedin


Don't do this. Don't give me hope.


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## quicky008 (Mar 9, 2021)

My friends living abroad tell me its difficult, nigh impossible to get a respectable job in europe/usa etc unless you possess lots of experience in a field that's much in demand in their country, or have a degree from any university situated in that country itself(or any similar college /University from any other 1st world country).

From what i have seen from my personal experience, the only jobs that one might be able to get in such countries readily after moving there are those of the menial types eg cleaning, housekeeping, serving as waiters in hotels etc. But can an educated person sustain his livelihood respectably if he immigrates there and decides to join such a profession to earn a living?


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## Extreme Gamer (Mar 9, 2021)

quicky008 said:


> My friends living abroad tell me its difficult, nigh impossible to get a respectable job in european unless you possess lots of experience in a field that's much in demand in their country, or have a degree from any university situated in that country itself(or any similar college /University from any other 1st world country).
> 
> From what i have seen from my personal experience, the only jobs that one might be able to get in such countries readily after moving there are those of the menial types eg cleaning, housekeeping, serving as waiters in hotels etc. But can an educated person sustain his livelihood respectably if he immigrates there and decides to join such a profession to earn a living?


You can apply to any job and get a work permit but in countries with a good work ethic, your merit is what nets you a job in the first place. You have to prove to any potential employer that they should jump through the hoops of hiring a foreign worker and that you will bring in the value that justifies it.

Your other option is to join a slave mill like Wipro and hope to get placed in their overseas offices.


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## Deleted member 345628 (Mar 10, 2021)

Desmond David said:


> I think you are mixing up nationalism and patriotism.


Isn't nationalism extreme version of Patriotism?


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## Desmond (Mar 10, 2021)

saintmode said:


> Isn't nationalism extreme version of Patriotism?


Basically, and it's also a slippery slope.


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## whitestar_999 (Mar 11, 2021)

RumbaMon19 said:


> Then this thing gets mixed with politics. If we see and do some research, All those Anti-BJP MLAs who lost earlier, are now standing with farmers, to gain there sympathy, as well as defame government. And those in power, are acting so ignorant, making matters worse.
> 
> The image of the country is at stake due to this BS.


I fully support farm laws but I also don't support the govt's way of introducing these laws & handling of the protests. It is the handling of the protests that is giving India a bad image globally.


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## ico (Mar 12, 2021)

saintmode said:


> Isn't nationalism extreme version of Patriotism?


The former is victim complex. In rare cases, it can be legitimate.


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## Desmond (Mar 13, 2021)

ico said:


> The former is victim complex.


I think what you are defining is just an outcome of conservatism today. By definition, nationalism about maintaining a national identity based on particular culture, tradition, religion, history, etc. So, pride in one's nation would by proxy mean pride in the nation's history, culture, religion, tradition, etc. Nationalism in India served it's purpose to drive out the British by inspiring the public to take pride in the history and culture of India and to draw a line between the British and Indians. Today I think nationalism in India means an obsession with a romanticized view of the past and reluctance to accept modern values.


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## Vyom (Mar 13, 2021)

Desmond David said:


> I think what you are defining is just an outcome of conservatism today. By definition, nationalism about maintaining a national identity based on particular culture, tradition, religion, history, etc. So, pride in one's nation would by proxy mean pride in the nation's history, culture, religion, tradition, etc. Nationalism in India served it's purpose to drive out the British by inspiring the public to take pride in the history and culture of India and to draw a line between the British and Indians. *Today I think nationalism in India means an obsession with a romanticized view of the past and reluctance to accept modern values.*


You should write more often. Loved how you phrased it.


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## ico (Mar 13, 2021)

Desmond David said:


> I think what you are defining is just an outcome of conservatism today. *By definition, nationalism about maintaining a national identity based on particular culture, tradition, religion, history, etc. So, pride in one's nation would by proxy mean pride in the nation's history, culture, religion, tradition, etc. Nationalism in India served it's purpose to drive out the British by inspiring the public to take pride in the history and culture of India and to draw a line between the British and Indians.* Today I think nationalism in India means an obsession with a romanticized view of the past and reluctance to accept modern values.


This was legitimate.

Today nationalism is, "go back to monke".


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## Desmond (Mar 13, 2021)

Vyom said:


> You should write more often. Loved how you phrased it.


Lol. If only I had time. 

Just to elaborate what I mean, this is just conservatism taken a bit too far IMO. While there is nothing wrong with conservatism since you must still keep track of your roots, but people need to realize that culture evolves with time. I understand that a lot of people are concerned about western influence on Indian culture, but this is just a natural result of globalization. You cannot really go back because the influence has already taken root in terms of fashion, subcultures, etc. The fallacy I think is that some people believe that such a cultural shift would eradicate Indian traditional culture, but that is far from the truth. Old and new culture can and will co-exist and will continue to evolve more over time. You can look at Japan as an example as a blend of traditional and modern culture.

To reverse the effects of globalization, you have to reverse globalization itself which is impossible IMO. We have gay pride parades, concerts from international musicians, anime conventions, etc in India now and many Indians actually like these.


ico said:


> Today nationalism is, "go back to monke".


Lol.


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## quicky008 (Apr 7, 2021)

__ https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=131709402293082&id=100063620697199
			




Does anyone else find this woman irritating?


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## topgear (Apr 14, 2021)

quicky008 said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=131709402293082&id=100063620697199
> 
> 
> 
> ...



#MeToo


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## Desmond (Apr 14, 2021)

Who is she?


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## quicky008 (Apr 14, 2021)

No idea,probably some pretentious,high-handed twit trying to pass herself off as some kind of "desh-bhakth" through her sycophantic and pseudo-patriotic remarks before modi and other delegates.

I think the word they use to describe women like her in the west is "Karen". I can almost guarantee 100% that all of her so-called patriotic fervour is absolutely fake and she doesn't give a damn about the welfare of her country or its citizens,particularly those that are poor or downtrodden.


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## RumbaMon19 (Apr 14, 2021)

*thelivenagpur.com/2019/08/26/city-...ommonwealth-senior-youth-officials-meet-2019/
She has talent, Karen's lack that.


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## quicky008 (Apr 14, 2021)

Good for her i guess.What "development and well-being" she and her fellow-commonwealth members will actually foster for the hapless youth of her country is anyone's guess though.


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## RumbaMon19 (Apr 16, 2021)

From what I have learned, problem with this country is that it does not respect its citizens. Only 3% population is paying direct taxes.

A guy scored 4K rank but lost his seat to a guy who had 36K rank, just because of reservation.

Now that guy with 4K rank would surely feel frustrated and decide to leave the country. He goes to other country, there he gets a lot more opportunity for his skill, and has more success there.

All this happened because that guy was not respected for his skill. Even if reservation is implemented, it is done In a wrong way, which paves problems for others.

After that people complain and call all the NRIs as traitors(there are many on twitter) they do this in the name of patriotism.

Just imagine, the image of this country is so bad outside, just because of this.

Majority of ministers etc. Only take care of people below poverty line. But they forget about others. It is like living as a minority.

Also take this for example, the ministers, who are controlling the country, are less educated than engineers, but shockingly earn more than that more educated engineer. Everything is so much messed up here.

I think as more people are getting educated, the EC should make some guidelines that every contestant should atleast have masters in any subject and should also conduct a basic paper with IQ and reasoning questions in it. It will significantly improve decision making.

Edit:- taxes I meant direct tax.


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## chetansha (Apr 16, 2021)

"Only 3% population is paying taxes"- where did you get this BS ? Every indian pays tax. Direct or indirectly. 


Sent from my SM-M315F using Tapatalk


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## RumbaMon19 (Apr 16, 2021)

chetansha said:


> "Only 3% population is paying taxes"- where did you get this BS ? Every indian pays tax. Direct or indirectly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-M315F using Tapatalk



I am talking about income tax. And excluding indirect taxes all the direct taxes account for 51.3% revenue, which is used for infrastructure and other kinds of development.

and also, not 3% but rather only 1.5-1.6% paid taxes.

*m.timesofindia.com/business/india-...arendra Modi told,(over 20 years) population.


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## quicky008 (Apr 16, 2021)

Even if they pay tax, its generally much lower than what they should be paying as far as their actual income is concerned. I know a lot of people who have a huge amount of black money but they pay just a miniscule amount of tax, citing falsely the fact that they have a very low income.

These people, majority of whom are business owners, cleverly conceal their true income by taking help of shady lawyers or employing a host of other deceitful tricks that they have acquired over lifetime of bamboozling and cheating people. And the sad thing about it is that they always manage to get away with it, whereas honest, hard working people who live from hand to mouth are always forced to pay taxes, else suffer dire consequences at the hand of tax authorities .


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## Deleted member 345628 (Aug 15, 2021)

I was under the same opinion as you @Desmond  , I actually debated on this with few of my friends and came to a different conclusion now


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## Deleted member 345628 (Aug 15, 2021)

I'm posting their opinions here now : 



> if we close the gap what pride for then i believe the pride term its for survability. the people that dont hav pride mostly cant survive. is like living in passion. example a kid born in slave system (aka ancient time) is a kid pride to be slave? if so then the kid become gud slave if not, is the kid pride to be alive? if so maybe want to become free man then the kid fight back to proud of him as human. if not then the kid become desperate or kill self.
> then a gap to family. are we proud to be in this family if so then mostly we want to safe the family til die. if not we can just ditch the family let them astray or we become astray. :comfyExcited:
> opcornpepe: or any hav different oppinion ?





> it same as family bigger aka country / race. but there more political about it. there a war bettween globalist and nationalist. in aspect proudness the nationalist sure love their country survivable like their citizen to get more wealth. when globalist they not stric to country but they stil want to proud exist as family / individual / grub. afterall its gud thing to proud as self/group/country cause all for survival. imagine if president / king in the country not proud of his citizent or all citizent not proud of his county what will become? then a war has startet





> another sample for patriot. when u come to other country and at that time u hungry eating a local food there. but.. shit this dish not for me better my country dish. then he open his country restaurant in that country. <- this one of patriot thinking. what a globalist think is? maybe when he eat that lokal food there. hmm its gud but maybe something missing like flavour. then he fuse it to taste better for his country and the country he visits to get more audience aka globalist market.


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## Deleted member 345628 (Aug 15, 2021)

> Whether you like it or not, you being a being born in a country makes it a part of your identity, because that is how humans have always worked. No matter how little or how big you being born in a country implies that the country has helped you in some way or the other, whether it being supplying you with infrastructure or culture or just something that the government gives you that you are taking for granted.
> Every country has their own standard of living, but it does help you in some way. It is easy to say that you don't need to give shit about your country or quote Einstein about his opinion on nationalism while ignoring that
> we have not evolved enough to be a globalist and think everyone is equal
> cause in reality people will treat you as an indian in the end, whether you like it or not. you will never be just another human being to some one from a different country. Being proud of your county/origin will help you deal with some shit that is otherwise very hard to do so.
> ...


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## Deleted member 345628 (Aug 15, 2021)

> You can but having the concept of a place you belong to makes it easier
> 
> It's never wrong to be proud of where you are from. That's the only way you will make your surroundings better. Cause if you don't care about it you wouldn't care about helping people living with you


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## Deleted member 345628 (Aug 15, 2021)

What do you think @Desmond


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## Nerevarine (Aug 15, 2021)

Damn that's a wall of text


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## Desmond (Aug 15, 2021)

Pranay Mokida said:


> What do you think @Desmond


After going through it and I still stand by what I believe. But I guess your opinion will be formed of what sort of personality or mindset you have. I guess you need a healthy dose of nihilism to see things my way, but not everybody has that kind of outlook on life which is understandable.

Though before I comment on what your friends said I must say a lot of it is not written very well, which makes is hard to understand (or easy to misunderstand) what they are trying to say. 

Another factor to take into consideration is confirmation bias.

From Wikipedia:


> *Confirmation bias* is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values.[1] People display this bias when they select information that supports their views, ignoring contrary information, or when they interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing attitudes. The effect is strongest for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply entrenched beliefs. Confirmation bias cannot be eliminated entirely, but it can be managed, for example, by education and training in critical thinking skills.


Now confirmation bias is not a bad thing since it also factors into learning things and forming habits but it can also manifest negatively such as bigotry, belief in pseudo-science, etc. It can only be reduced by critical thinking.

Because of this, I am usually very skeptical of other people's opinions because it's hard to say whether their opinions are based on what they have learned from childhood or if its a logical conclusion.



> if we close the gap what pride for then i believe the pride term its for survability. the people that dont hav pride mostly cant survive. is like living in passion.


I don't agree. To survive you need water, oxygen, food, clothes and shelter. Everything beyond that is luxury (see the quote in my signature). Perhaps they mean that you need to confirm to society's standards by showing national pride (it's actually not clear if they are speaking about national pride or not, I am assuming they are) or risk ostracism. But this is no longer true in a modern society. Modern society is heavily geared towards individual freedom (even in India). To survive in a modern society you only need a job to pay for everything you need, everything else is superfluous. You don't need to have pride in your job, it's a means to an end, it's the same I think about national pride, you don't need it. Pay your taxes, don't do any crime and you have paid your dues to the state.



> example a kid born in slave system (aka ancient time) is a kid pride to be slave? if so then the kid become gud slave if not, is the kid pride to be alive? if so maybe want to become free man then the kid fight back to proud of him as human. if not then the kid become desperate or kill self.
> then a gap to family. are we proud to be in this family if so then mostly we want to safe the family til die. if not we can just ditch the family let them astray or we become astray. :comfyExcited:


This whole block does not seem relevant to national pride. It does speak about individual pride which I have nothing against. I don't know what gap means in this case (or the previous block) but I assume it means lack of pride. But then again, I have nothing against pride in your family either but again it's all circumstantial, whether there are abusive parents etc.



> it same as family bigger aka country / race. but there more political about it. there a war bettween globalist and nationalist. in aspect proudness the nationalist sure love their country survivable like their citizen to get more wealth. when globalist they not stric to country but they stil want to proud exist as family / individual / grub. afterall its gud thing to proud as self/group/country cause all for survival. imagine if president / king in the country not proud of his citizent or all citizent not proud of his county what will become? then a war has startet


I would never compare individual pride with national pride because, going by the example this person has given, you do not know every single person in the nation (country). When you speak about national pride, you are generally speaking about abstract things like culture, taste of food, etc. all of these are acquired tastes: Confirmation bias. Again, I am not sure they person is using the term "survival" correctly. The rest of the post does not seem relevant and I don't understand why they would say that a war will start when people don't have pride in their country. 



> another sample for patriot. when u come to other country and at that time u hungry eating a local food there. but.. shit this dish not for me better my country dish. then he open his country restaurant in that country. <- this one of patriot thinking. what a globalist think is? maybe when he eat that lokal food there. hmm its gud but maybe something missing like flavour. then he fuse it to taste better for his country and the country he visits to get more audience aka globalist market.


This whole block is not really relevant. What they are calling pride is actually confirmation bias. You tend to like Indian food because you have been eating similar food since childhood and that forms a framework in your mind that this is how food should be, so when you encounter some food that does not confirm to this pre-existing belief of, your mind will literally reject it. That being said, any Indians who live abroad will develop a taste for the local food after 1-2 generations. Still, food taste is a very personal thing and I would not equate it to the nation at large.



> Whether you like it or not, you being a being born in a country makes it a part of your identity, because that is how humans have always worked. No matter how little or how big you being born in a country implies that the country has helped you in some way or the other, whether it being supplying you with infrastructure or culture or just something that the government gives you that you are taking for granted.


Agreed, but I don't see how this is relevant.



> Every country has their own standard of living, but it does help you in some way. It is easy to say that you don't need to give shit about your country or quote Einstein about his opinion on nationalism while ignoring that


Which quote? I have searched Einstein's quotes about nationalism and there seem to be many, I don't know which one in particular they are referring to.



> we have not evolved enough to be a globalist and think everyone is equal


Lol. Why not?



> cause in reality people will treat you as an indian in the end, whether you like it or not. you will never be just another human being to some one from a different country. Being proud of your county/origin will help you deal with some shit that is otherwise very hard to do so.


I am not sure what they mean by the last line? Do they mean that Indians will face racism abroad or something and having national pride will somehow overcome that?



> i am not saying that extreme nationalism is corect either. but if you don't care for people of your country there will be very few people who will care for you


I somewhat agree. But people outside of your family and friends by and large don't care much about you in general.



> if you keep disassociating with others, where does it end, you can go ahead and ask whats the point of having states, whats the point of a family even it's just a bunch of random people who are there just cause 2 retards decided to have sex


States are for ease of administration. It's only coincidental that each state in India has a distinct culture. As for family, there is really no point but society frowns on children born out of wedlock.



> if you keep going into that hole it wil never end, and once you stop caring about others you will stop caring about yourself. Living a lonely self loathing life is not fun at all.
> So, the reason for a family structure/ a country to exist is just to give an immediate reason for some people to feel some kind of association with a random stranger. It gives them a little reason to care about the other person


Again not relevant to the topic of national pride. A strawman argument actually. They are implying that by having no national pride, somehow you become an isolated, self-loathing individual. The rest if just repeating what's already been said. My stand is just the same, you don't need to have pride to live. Also, it does not affect your identity. Having less pride in your country/nation does not make you less of an Indian. In fact I'd say I am more Indian than some nationalists.



> You can but having the concept of a place you belong to makes it easier
> 
> It's never wrong to be proud of where you are from. That's the only way you will make your surroundings better. Cause if you don't care about it you wouldn't care about helping people living with you


I agree somewhat. I never said that it's wrong, just that it's pointless. If feeling pride in your country makes you get through your day, that is your prerogative.


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## quicky008 (Aug 16, 2021)

The only thing that one can do to manifest his "national pride" in India is commit suicide immediately!


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## K_akash_i (Aug 16, 2021)

Our national anthem is written by Tagore who considered the world as one,So if u look deep enough u'd find him an internationalist who was critical of nationalism(although i'd suggest people should look upon his ideals rather than just  reading these two lines.maybe u'd have a clearer interpretation than mine)
nationalism is more of a politically exploited term used for gains now


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## Deleted member 345628 (Aug 16, 2021)

Good Argument @Desmond  After Seeing their text , I was confused too . But then their conclusion made some sense about there is nothing being wrong to take pride . So I ran into you , but you cleared my confusion . Thanks


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## Deleted member 345628 (Aug 16, 2021)

saintmode said:


> I think the concept of Patriotism works only with respect to frame of reference . Its more of a psychological feeling than anything .If a giant monster was to invade in a forest , different types of tribes in the forest would unite and fight back the monster .On the other hand , If some stranger were to join a tribe community they would suspect danger in terms of survival instinct and wouldn't trust him/her .I don't find any patriotism in my University itself , there would be huge differences between south indians / north indians , Yet most of them claim they are patriots . You will hardly find both of the groups in a community . But if pakistani too were there , then Im sure the difference such as North/South Indian would fade away and become Pakistani / Indian .


This was my old argument xD


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## Anorion (Aug 20, 2021)

hey @Dexterminator this is really good  it's nice to see different perspectives posted like that wait hold on, let me read


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## Anorion (Aug 20, 2021)

this one is pretty balanced
It's better to be careful here about exactly how proud to be of traditions, customs, the land, languages, and the systems rather than clump them all together in some kind of misdirected attachment or inertia against change, and stifle any of them from evolving. 
Like I'm really proud of my cable operator too, but only to an extent.


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## Deleted member 345628 (Aug 20, 2021)

@Anorion Before @Desmond 's argument I kinda fell like there was something they were trying to convey which I didn't really understand . And the last block of text made some sense so I thought its may be afterall good to have pride in one's nation .

But after his argument I came to conclusion that TLDR and rushing into conclusion is a bad idea .


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## Anorion (Aug 21, 2021)

If I were to try and guess, I think the argument is actually unitarism vs pluralism

In this case I would like to see it play out, because it is a process. This is important, maybe it is the country going through psychopolitical load shedding. If you want to understand the roots of everything that made us think we are a country, I suggest this book > Sources of Indian Traditions.

It covers entire subcontinent. No man can be safe while his neighbor's house burns. I also think of it in a new way now. Ever since the digital revolution started, we take pride in our virtual tribes. We should lean into that, these imaginary villages are the fortresses of the future.


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## Deleted member 345628 (Aug 21, 2021)

Thanks for the book , will check it out now .


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## rockfella (Aug 21, 2021)

India is still one of the best countries to live in.


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## SaiyanGoku (Aug 21, 2021)

rockfella said:


> India is still one of the best countries to live in.


If I had the opportunity or money, I'd have emigrated long ago.


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## Anorion (Aug 21, 2021)

Listen @Dexterminator what you are doing is very important, go out, listen to people, document their views! I used to do this kind of thing
Having a dialogue is paramount
Im just glad that you have friends who are willing to talk and engage, instead of just being "it's us or them."


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## Deleted member 345628 (Aug 21, 2021)

Anorion said:


> Listen @Dexterminator what you are doing is very important, go out, listen to people, document their views! I used to do this kind of thing
> Having a dialogue is paramount
> Im just glad that you have friends who are willing to talk and engage, instead of just being "it's us or them."



I totally got what you meant , in case of me , I try to engage in conversations as much as I can  . I feel like I learn a lot from conversations and pick new perspectives all the time . Looking back 4 years and comparing myself , I am no longer the person I was back then . It's mostly the conversations that helped me to pick new music , books , movies .... etc . People around me in real life (hometown) are mostly dumb dumbs , so I have a couple of friends from my University and I mostly talk to online people . 

But , that was so dammn cool to listen from you , thanks . Will keep this post pinned on to my notes .


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## quicky008 (Aug 22, 2021)

rockfella said:


> India is still one of the best countries to live in.


Yes,provided you have loads of money and belong to the privileged class that never get to see the ugly side of living in a corruption and poverty ridden country like this. Or is just plain delusional with extreme patriotic fervour.


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## quicky008 (Aug 22, 2021)

SaiyanGoku said:


> If I had the opportunity or money, I'd have emigrated long ago.


_sigh_ My feelings exactly-i have long cherished the desire to leave this country but have neither the means nor the opportunity to do so.


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## whitestar_999 (Aug 22, 2021)

SaiyanGoku said:


> If I had the opportunity or money, I'd have emigrated long ago.


This! Anyone who say they love to live in India either don't have the opportunity/money or they are the privileged top 0.1% incl those having day dreams of great nation.
@quicky008


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