# New Motherboard and Proccy - suggestions please!



## kageiit (Jun 22, 2010)

Hi Guys,

My current setup is:

Proccy: Intel P4 3.2 Ghz
Mobo: Intel 945 GNT
RAM: 3 Gigs Value ram (2x1 , 2x 512 - dual channel)
HDD: 1x 160 GB , 1x 250 GB , 1x 1 TB (all seagate)
GFX CARD: Palit 9600 GT 1 GB (Factory Overclocked)
PSU: Cooler Master Extreme Power 500W
DVD Writer: LG

I intend to upgrade mainly my processor and motherboard to contemporary standards . I use my machine mostly for *gaming* and other general purpose computing. Please suggest a good config. My budget is 15k-20k max.

I was thinking of getting AMD Phenom X4 965 BE and one of the possible motherboards:
Asus M4A89GTD Pro/USB3 (or) MSI 890GXM-G65 (or) Biostar TA890GXE (or) GIGABYTE GA-890GPA-UD3H . A good motherboard with USB 3.0 support is preferable so that it is a bit future proof. It needn't have on board graphics since I shall be using my graphics card anyways.


Only Mobo+Proccy are my priorities but some good config including some ddr3 ram will really hit the sweet spot. 

Also Do I need to upgrade my PSU for the new components?

Thank you in advance. All suggestions are welcome!


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## coderunknown (Jun 22, 2010)

kageiit said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> My current setup is:
> 
> ...



for 20k, get these:

Athlon II X4 630 2.8GHz @ 4.7k
Biostar TA785G3 HD @ 4.2k
Corsair 4GB Kit 1333Mhz Value @ 5.8k
Corsair VX450W @ 3.8k (sell your current PSU)

Total: 17.5k. 

if you want Sata 3.0. you may add a card later on or you may go with Biostar TA890GXE. but do remember. selling out 2.5k for something you not going use now isn't a good deal. better get a PCIe card that have USB 3.0 as well as Sata 3.0 when it becomes cheap.


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## kageiit (Jun 22, 2010)

just a quick question ,  where can i sell my current PSU i.e Cooler Master Extreme Power 500W . I bought it 3 months ago on Ebay. its brand new. Can you suggest some potential places so that i can sell it. please...


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## coderunknown (Jun 22, 2010)

kageiit said:


> just a quick question ,  where can i sell my current PSU i.e Cooler Master Extreme Power 500W . I bought it 3 months ago on Ebay. its brand new. Can you suggest some potential places so that i can sell it. please...



post a thread in bazaar section. someone maybe interested. i suggesting you sell this PSU cause of its unusual characteristics. it may blow up damaging your card & also the rest of the hardware. so better get rid of it.


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## Jaskanwar Singh (Jun 22, 2010)

Just change the procy to athlon 2 x4 635 @ 5.4k. Rest go with sams suggestion


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## vickybat (Jun 22, 2010)

I have posted it before but got no replies so i'm doing it again. please help out this time guys...

My brother has an amd based system consisting of the athlon x2 4400+, asus m2a-vm mobo, 4gigs ddr2 ram and sapphire 4650. The proccy in my opinion is very weak and is a big bottleneck for the rest of the system as it can't even play full hd movies.
Recently tried running AVATAR FULL HD which is 19.5gb in size and it slowed down to a crawl.

So i want to know what proccys can i add to this mobo without changing anything else so that atleast it can last a year.Can i add athlon 2 x4 635 or 630?
Please give me the compatible proccys for this mobo which is an am2 or am2+ socket.


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## cute.bandar (Jun 22, 2010)

> The proccy in my opinion is very weak and is a big bottleneck for the rest of the system as it can't even play full hd movies.


 I have a similar proccy. I have no problems playing 720p videos and I don't tink this proccy is out of date . Although I haven't run such a large 20gb video . But I don't personally think you need to upgrade the proccy(I could be wrong) .


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## coderunknown (Jun 22, 2010)

Jaskanwar Singh said:


> Just change the procy to athlon 2 x4 635 @ 5.4k. Rest go with sams suggestion



X4 635 is too costly currently. 600-800 bucks more just for a 100Mhz jump. this just a ridiculous decision & should be avoided.



vickybat said:


> I have posted it before but got no replies so i'm doing it again. please help out this time guys...
> 
> My brother has an amd based system consisting of the athlon x2 4400+, asus m2a-vm mobo, 4gigs ddr2 ram and sapphire 4650. The proccy in my opinion is very weak and is a big bottleneck for the rest of the system as it can't even play full hd movies.
> Recently tried running AVATAR FULL HD which is 19.5gb in size and it slowed down to a crawl.
> ...



its an AM2 socket based motherboard so AM2 or AM2+ processor will only fit. not AM3, i guess.

do have a look here.

and if that motherboard have a Bios release, may support X4 940 (AM2+ processor).


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## Cilus (Jun 22, 2010)

> have posted it before but got no replies so i'm doing it again. please  help out this time guys...
> 
> My brother has an amd based system consisting of the athlon x2 4400+,  asus m2a-vm mobo, 4gigs ddr2 ram and sapphire 4650. The proccy in my  opinion is very weak and is a big bottleneck for the rest of the system  as it can't even play full hd movies.
> Recently tried running AVATAR FULL HD which is 19.5gb in size and it  slowed down to a crawl.
> ...



I don't think the problem is your CPU or GPU. For playing Blue Ray rips (ur mentioned one is a blue ray rip), even on-board HD 4200 is sufficient and you are having a HD 4650 which is far powerful than HD 4200.
For playing full HD movies, you also need proper codecs. For example new Divx HD is codec for H264 or MKV decoding is not good enough. 
If you are using XP, then download ffdshow decoder and Haali Media player. Also update your graphics card driver and motherboard driver. You can also use Media Player Classic Home Cinema, which supports DXVA acceleration (using Graphics card for playing and applying some post processing). Then try to play the video again.
Because even with my old Athlon 64 bit single core and a Nvidia 9500GT I was able to play some of the blue ray rips, like LOTR (10.2 GB)


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## kageiit (Jun 22, 2010)

how about this config:

CPU: AMD Phenom II 3.2 Ghz. 955 X4 Black Edition - 7.4k
MOBO: MSI 890GXM-G65 - 7.4k
PSU: Corsair 450W VX - 3.7k

Total - 18.5k

(all prices excluding tax)

I can try to get the DDR3 ram if I can sell my current PSU . Also will my existing DDR2 ram work fine with this setup?

Comments please!


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## Cilus (Jun 22, 2010)

Guys, as per the PSU thing, I differ with most of the people. For running a 9600 GT, I think the Cooler Master Extreme Series 500W is more than enough, even with its bad reputation. A lot of forum members reported that they are running 8800GT or 9800GT/GTS 250 with Cooler Master Extreme series PSU and I did not find a single member, reporting their PSU is blown to flame.
 If Op is planing to buy a High end Gfx card like HD 5770,then may be he can think to change the PSU.

But for now, I don't think he needs a new PSU.
kageiit, Your suggested config is very good. Instead of PSU, get 2X2 GB Kingston 1333 MHz DDR3 ram @ 5.5k
For mobo, you can also get the *Biostar TA890GXE @ 6.6k. *Very good board.


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## vickybat (Jun 22, 2010)

@* Sam,Cilus,cute_bandar  *  Thanks for your valuable suggestions guys.But one thing i don't understand i.e since am3 proccy's have both ddr2 & ddr3 memory controllers why won't phenom2 and athlon 2 won't work in socket am2+? I guess amd's are popular for backward compatibility unlike intel.
So what should i do & will the x4 630 fit in the board with a bios update?
If no, should i go for old phenom quadcore proccys like sam provided in the list?


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## coderunknown (Jun 22, 2010)

vickybat said:


> @* Sam,Cilus,cute_bandar  *  Thanks for your valuable suggestions guys.But one thing i don't understand i.e since am3 proccy's have both ddr2 & ddr3 memory controllers why won't phenom2 and athlon 2 won't work in socket am2+? I guess amd's are popular for backward compatibility unlike intel.
> So what should i do & will the x4 630 fit in the board with a bios update?
> If no, should i go for old phenom quadcore proccys like sam provided in the list?



AM3 processors should run but only if Bios update is available. or do one thing, check if Phenom II X4 920 or 940 proccies available in market & just drop one in. they'll run surely. but AM3 processors will need a bios update surely. no bios update, no comparability.


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## Cilus (Jun 22, 2010)

Who said that Phenom II and Athlon II (AM3 Processors) don't work on AM2 or AM2+ motherboards. Yes they work just fine. But the opposite is not true. You cannot plug an AM2/AM2+ CPU into a AM3 socket mobo. This is because AM2/AM2+ socket is based on 940 pin Pin Grid Array whereas AM3 processors are based on 938 pin socket type, hence making it impossible to plug a AM2 processors like Phenom 9850 to an AM3 board.
The motherboard you mentioned, ie. Asus m2a-Vm based on AMD 690G chipset and supports Phenom II and Athlon II CPUs with a Bios update. Check here for the CPU support List of your mobo. 
Go for a AMD Athlon II series CPu now. Don't spend much money to Phenom seroes as AMD is going to relaease their new gen processors in the end of 2010.


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## Piyush (Jun 22, 2010)

Sam.Shab said:


> post a thread in bazaar section. someone maybe interested. i suggesting you sell this PSU cause of its unusual characteristics. it may blow up damaging your card & also the rest of the hardware. so better get rid of it.


u know what?!?!
the owner of the SMC showed me his rig
he was running HD5870 with CM extreme+ 650W
my eyes were popped out
he even showed me crysis at full settings at 1900 resolution(19xx if its not correct)


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## coderunknown (Jun 22, 2010)

piyush120290 said:


> u know what?!?!
> the owner of the SMC showed me his rig
> he was running HD5870 with CM extreme+ 650W
> my eyes were popped out
> he even showed me crysis at full settings at 1900 resolution(19xx if its not correct)



maybe. he having a good Extreme Power. but its highly not recommended. if it blows up, OP will sue us


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## kageiit (Jun 23, 2010)

How about FSP Saga 400W or 500W instead of the corsair VX450? I think its a bit cheaper. Any opinions please?


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## coderunknown (Jun 23, 2010)

kageiit said:


> How about FSP Saga 400W or 500W instead of the corsair VX450? I think its a bit cheaper. Any opinions please?



you can settle for. but FSP low on warranty & not as efficient as Corsair units. Corsair unit can provided more than their rated power under load. FSP can't. but still they value PSU. you can't expect these units go head to head with worlds best power supplies


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## Cilus (Jun 23, 2010)

> the owner of the SMC showed me his rig
> he was running HD5870 with CM extreme+ 650W
> my eyes were popped out
> he even showed me crysis at full settings at 1900 resolution(19xx if its  not correct)



It is not going to blow up Sam. If there is any problem, then Op can easily understand it. Even my friend  runs a GTX 285, Core 2 Quad 6600 with a Cooler Master Extreme 650W and he plays games all the time. Sometimes temp reached to 80-85 degree C and no problem for 2 years.
Got a review about the Extreme Plus series. They are saying it is not as good as the others but not a bomb as mentioned here.
*And again, for running a 9600Gt , the existing PSU is enough*


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## asingh (Jun 23, 2010)

^^


piyush120290 said:


> u know what?!?!
> the owner of the SMC showed me his rig
> he was running HD5870 with CM extreme+ 650W
> my eyes were popped out
> he even showed me crysis at full settings at 1900 resolution(19xx if its not correct)



I do not care what a retailer/seller would show you. You really believe he has time to game/OC as much as we all do. No ways will the CM Extreme series deliver clean ripple free power at the ratings. I have read/heard/seen many users saying they are fine with CM E series, but honestly, have seen more cases where this unit failed and caused issues.


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## kageiit (Jun 23, 2010)

Ok so now im officially freaked out. will the PSU blow up for real? , I mean i had a CM exterme 460W when i bought my 9600gt and it worked fine for one year then due to a power surge , my spike burnt along with my CM 460w . So i got the 500w one recently about 3 months ago. I havnt faced any issues after that and I have gamed quite well using that PSU. My only concern is will it be able to power the new processor also . I dont wanna change the PSU unless it might blow up seriously and damage all my parts in future . any suggestions?


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## coderunknown (Jun 23, 2010)

guys have a look at the screenshot below & please tell me whats the total power output on the various rails:

*i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt61/juntax1908/DSC02244.jpg

as seen its a FSP Saga II 400W thats quite famous here. so want to know if its rally a good one.

also its 12V rail is divided into 2 parts? its good or bad compared to a single 12V rail?


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## Cilus (Jun 23, 2010)

Sam.Shab,
multiple 12 V rail is used for stabiliy. If you provide too much current (normally over 25A) to a single rail,it may generate significant amount of heat which leads to less life time of that PSU, unless very high level components are used.
So for budget or Mid range PSU, instead of providing a single 12V rail, multiple 12V rails are provided, one of them is having rating over or near 20A and other one is like 15 to 20A.
Theoretically total wattage should be [(1st 12V X Current Rating of it)+( 2nd 12V X Current Rating of it)], but practically it stays within +/-8% of the total Wattage. The problem is, it not possible to distribute the load identically to different 12V rails properly.
But it is observed that multiple 12V rail is good for the lifespan of the PSU.


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## coderunknown (Jun 23, 2010)

ok thanks a lot Cilus bro. solved my confusion


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## pulsar_swift (Jun 23, 2010)

Cilus said:


> Sam.Shab,
> multiple 12 V rail is used for stabiliy. If you provide too much current (normally over 25A) to a single rail,it may generate significant amount of heat which leads to less life time of that PSU, unless very high level components are used.
> So for budget or Mid range PSU, instead of providing a single 12V rail, multiple 12V rails are provided, one of them is having rating over or near 20A and other one is like 15 to 20A.
> Theoretically total wattage should be [(1st 12V X Current Rating of it)+( 2nd 12V X Current Rating of it)], but practically it stays within +/-8% of the total Wattage. The problem is, it not possible to distribute the load identically to different 12V rails properly.
> But it is observed that multiple 12V rail is good for the lifespan of the PSU.



All corsair PSUs starting from Vx450 till TX850 have single 12V rail config. All of them come with 5yr warranty.


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## asingh (Jun 24, 2010)

Read *this* about multi rails.


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## pulsar_swift (Jun 24, 2010)

nice post asigh. thank you


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## coderunknown (Jun 24, 2010)

ok thanks asigh. got it.


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## Cilus (Jun 24, 2010)

Nice post Asigh. 
Ya, that is true,* the main problem with multiple 12V rails is that in run time it is not possible to distribute the load proportionately to the 12 V rails as per their current rating.*
So using a single 12V rail with large current rating is always good. But for this you need very good component also (with minimal resistance for minimizing power loss and heat generation).
So for Mid range CPUs which are normally used with not so high configured System, a multiple 12V rail is a good option as most of the times their power requirement does not reach to a point where they can fetch more than 20A from one of the 12V rail, having low current rating. It is good for these middle range of PSUs as they don't use very high quality components. It is also mentioned in Wikipedia.


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## kageiit (Jun 26, 2010)

So here is what i decided to go with finally:

Processor: 	Phenom II X4 955 3.2 Ghz. Black Edition - 7.8k

Motherboard: Biostar TA890GXE - 6.2k

RAM: 2 x G-Skill Ripjaws 2GB DDR3 1600 MHz Dual Channel Gaming Memory CL9 (4GB Kit) - 5k (getting via friend from Canada from newegg)

PSU: will stick with what I have now (CM Extreme 500W) , but planning to upgrade in few months to Corsair VX450 W , when I can get me some cash 

Total: 19k (all prices including taxes) , will purchase next week 

Any comments? I hope I made the right decisions, and thank you all for helping me all the way


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## coderunknown (Jun 26, 2010)

kageiit said:


> So here is what i decided to go with finally:
> 
> Processor: 	Phenom II X4 955 3.2 Ghz. Black Edition - 7.8k
> 
> ...



an 870X or 880G board from MSI will give you USB 3.0 also @ same price. or maybe lower price. do consider it.


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## kageiit (Jun 28, 2010)

Sam.Shab said:


> an 870X or 880G board from MSI will give you USB 3.0 also @ same price. or maybe lower price. do consider it.



I cant seem to find the right board. can you please gimme some model number or link? thanks.


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## Jaskanwar Singh (Jun 28, 2010)

look for gigabyte GA-880GM-UD2H or MSI MSI 880GMA-E45


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## kageiit (Jun 30, 2010)

My budget got upgraded a bit to 25 k so here is the final config

Processor: Phenom II X4 955 3.2 Ghz. Black Edition - 7.8k

Motherboard: MSI 890GXM-G65 - 7.8k

RAM: 2 x G-Skill Ripjaws 2GB DDR3 1600 MHz Dual Channel Gaming Memory CL9 (4GB Kit) - 5k (getting via friend from Canada from newegg)

PSU: Corsair VX450 - 4k

Total: 24.6k (all prices including taxes) , will purchase this weekend

any suggestions/improvements or is this fine?


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## coderunknown (Jun 30, 2010)

^^ nice one. go ahead.


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## pulsar_swift (Jun 30, 2010)

i have my reservations about 955BE stock HSF. One more user reported about high sound/noise. 965BE or X6 1055T should be better.


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## Piyush (Jun 30, 2010)

pulsar_swift said:


> i have my reservations about 955BE stock HSF. One more user reported about high sound/noise. 965BE or X6 1055T should be better.


yup its true
but its a beast in performance

and what about c3 stepping?


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## pulsar_swift (Jun 30, 2010)

mine is C3 only. I am not talking about the proccy i am only concerned about the HSF that comes with 955BE


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## Piyush (Jun 30, 2010)

oops i mixed 2 different things


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## kageiit (Jul 1, 2010)

any suggestions for a good budget case to go with all those new parts? (will get the case a bit later)


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## coderunknown (Jul 1, 2010)

NZXT Gamma. add 2 extra fans. good to game.


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## kageiit (Jul 2, 2010)

can you please recommend what fans I can purchase for a reasonable price . please give me both LED and non LED options. also what is the reputation of Cooler Master Sickleflow 120mm Blue LED 1200 / 2000 rpm fans . is higher rpm always better?


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## coderunknown (Jul 2, 2010)

kageiit said:


> can you please recommend what fans I can purchase for a reasonable price . please give me both LED and non LED options. also what is the reputation of Cooler Master Sickleflow 120mm Blue LED 1200 / 2000 rpm fans . is higher rpm always better?



if you don't OC lot and your pc temperature just above normal, add 2 CM fans. costing around 250 for non-LED & 450 for LED. another good option is Xigmatek fans (if you like white or Orange fan). they do their job well. cost same as CM fans. good point. they one of most silent fans around. for best job, get Delta fan or Scythe fan. costing 700-900 bucks. but they worth every penny.


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## Piyush (Jul 2, 2010)

Sam.Shab said:


> if you don't OC lot and your pc temperature just above normal, add 2 CM fans. costing around 250 for non-LED & 450 for LED. another good option is Xigmatek fans (if you like white or Orange fan). they do their job well. cost same as CM fans. good point. they one of most silent fans around. for best job, get Delta fan or Scythe fan. costing 700-900 bucks. but they worth every penny.


at SMC they cost 50 less for LED and non LED
CM Excalibur is beast performer


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## rahul.007 (Jul 2, 2010)

pulsar_swift said:


> i have my reservations about 955BE stock HSF. One more user reported about high sound/noise. 965BE or X6 1055T should be better.



count me too.... my stock hsf really makes one hell of a noise.... especially while encoding videos.... but don't have the required money to go for cm hyper n520(all gone to get the rig & nokia 5230)....


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## kageiit (Jul 3, 2010)

Hey guys,

Just bought the following components

Processor: AMD Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition - 7.4k

Motherboard: MSI 890GXM-G65 - 7k

Power Supply: Corsair VX 450W - 3.5k

Case Fans: 2 x Cooler Master Sickleflow 2000rpm, 90 CFM Red LED Fans - 1k

Total - 18.9k + 5% vat = 20k

Pretty sweet deal!! 

I initially wanted to upgrade only my CPU, which meant getting a new mobo to support the CPU, then new RAM to support the mobo, new RAM to support the mobo LOL  !! 

Just waiting for the RAM to arrive along with my friend from Canada. Will be getting a case soon maybe NZXT Gamma (if available in kolkata) or else a CM Elite 310. Overall I just almost rebuilt my computer, which I wasnt expecting !

Btw I bought everything from Binary World, Bangalore. They give better prices than any shop on SP Road!! 

Their website is www.bwindia.net

Initially some prices were higher, like corsair 450vx was priced 3.7 without tax, I told them TheITWares -TheITwares Ecommerce was offering same item at same price with tax. they immediately updated price to 3.5k. Similarly with MSI board, lynx-india was offering at 7k while they were offering at 7.4k , again I brought it to their notice and voila, the gave at same price as lynx-india. Also 955 BE is priced at 7.4k which is the cheapest anywhere. Also all parts were brand new manufactured/imported in last 2-3 months.

They are very honest and take positive feedback from customers and give competitive prices. If you find any item cheaper on any Indian website, just tell them and price will be matched or even lowered !! Especially useful for people in Bangalore. Hope this info helps!!

They also deliver to anywhere in India and their catalog is simply amazing! much more stuff and variety than other sites I have browsed till now. Do give them a try next time you buy something 

Anyways a thousand thanks to everyone who helped me in making choices and giving me suggestions. I couldnt have done it without you!!

P.S: Anyone know If I can get NZXT Gamma anywhere in bangalore (or) hyderabad (or) kolkata (sounds strange but Ill be visiting all these cities soon for a short period of time, so want to get it from anywhere I can). Please help me with this one last thing


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## pulsar_swift (Jul 3, 2010)

good man. congratulations. post pics


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## Jaskanwar Singh (Jul 3, 2010)

congrats dude


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## Piyush (Jul 3, 2010)

nice purchase


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## coderunknown (Jul 4, 2010)

excellent pricing & purchase buddy. congrats.


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## kageiit (Jul 4, 2010)

Anyone know If I can get NZXT Gamma anywhere in bangalore (or) hyderabad (or) kolkata (sounds strange but Ill be visiting all these cities soon for a short period of time, so want to get it from anywhere I can). Please help me with this one last thing


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## rahul.007 (Jul 4, 2010)

no idea abt anyplace except delhi... but  nice purchase....


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## kageiit (Jul 8, 2010)

ordered NZXT Gamma from Theitdepot - India's First IT Online Shopping Store for 2.4k ( including vat + shipping ). Now just to wait


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## pulsar_swift (Jul 8, 2010)

good. post pics when you receive it


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## kageiit (Jul 9, 2010)

Pics!!

*img819.imageshack.us/img819/390/dsc03981.jpg

*img85.imageshack.us/img85/5832/dsc03979ns.jpg

*img571.imageshack.us/img571/412/dsc03985tq.jpg

*img576.imageshack.us/img576/5676/dsc03987a.jpg

*img408.imageshack.us/img408/8516/dsc03980r.jpg

Will post pics of cabby once I receive it


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## rahul.007 (Jul 9, 2010)

nice pics


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## Piyush (Jul 9, 2010)

WHOA!!!!!!!!
nice HUGE pics dude
even if my monitor width would be doubled i still couldnt have seen it


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## rahul.007 (Jul 9, 2010)

> even if my monitor width would be doubled i still couldnt have seen it



which monitor????


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## Piyush (Jul 9, 2010)

samsung syncmaster 540n


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## rahul.007 (Jul 9, 2010)

ok.. how much did your cm gx 550w cost you??


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## coderunknown (Jul 9, 2010)

pics are huge but shaky. not focussed well.


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## fatalcore (Jul 11, 2010)

waoo......good config & pics. []   Congrats...


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## Piyush (Jul 11, 2010)

rahul.007 said:


> ok.. how much did your cm gx 550w cost you??


4500
but now it is 4300


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## ssb1551 (Sep 14, 2010)

Cilus said:


> Who said that Phenom II and Athlon II (AM3 Processors) don't work on AM2 or AM2+ motherboards. Yes they work just fine. But the opposite is not true. You cannot plug an AM2/AM2+ CPU into a AM3 socket mobo. This is because AM2/AM2+ socket is based on 940 pin Pin Grid Array whereas AM3 processors are based on 938 pin socket type, hence making it impossible to plug a AM2 processors like Phenom 9850 to an AM3 board.
> The motherboard you mentioned, ie. Asus m2a-Vm based on AMD 690G chipset and supports Phenom II and Athlon II CPUs with a Bios update. Check here for the CPU support List of your mobo.
> Go for a AMD Athlon II series CPu now. Don't spend much money to Phenom seroes as AMD is going to relaease their new gen processors in the end of 2010.


Wow!!Athlon II X4 can run on AM2/AM2+ MoBo!!Hey I got ASUS M2N-MX SE which is an AM2 MoBo.Will Athlon II X4 635 work on this MoBo if BIOS update is available?


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## coderunknown (Sep 14, 2010)

^^ Athlon II or Phenom II work only on AM2+ & AM3. not on AM2. its wayyyyyyyy too old.


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