# Should ganesh immersion be allowed??



## __Virus__ (Aug 15, 2006)

Offcoz Yes!! keeping in mind every single citizen/indian has every right to celebrate the religious festivals in the best way possible. Who wudnt want to? But off late ( keep in mind am only discussing about hyd scene) we have experienced a bad output. As we all know by now that we have such a gud lake called as hussain sagar but it all stinks.. there are n number of reasons though. Ganesh (my apologies if am spelling it wrong) festival is one of high importance to hindus and they do celebrate with utmost faith and dedication. What I feel is, either the number of immersions should be brought down or pandals (if this is right term for the places were ganesha's are installed) should be limited to 1 or 2 per community/area. The whole dumps really leave a very very bad scene of the lake, if we cud use some gud high quality/low chemical materials ( I dont know what they are made of ) it wud b just a perfect way to celebrate the festival..


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## vijay_7287 (Aug 15, 2006)

if u r talking abt hussain sagar in HYD then a definitive nooo


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## anandk (Aug 15, 2006)

along with rights, come duties...to mother nature.
shadu/mud gamesh idols are allright...they are biodegradable; pop ones r not and (immersion) shud be banned, over a period of time atleast. 

its an idea whose time has come !


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## indian_samosa (Aug 15, 2006)

i think mud statues are fine.....
but people prefer pop ones coz they are easier to fabricate.......
if you see tradition ...then mud is the way....

PS: Virus .....u typed all the words correctly yaar...no need to apologize if you spelt something wrong.....god wont punish you or me for typing his/her name wrong..


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## led_shankar (Aug 15, 2006)

Of course not... What a waste of money all religious festivities are.


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## kumarmohit (Aug 15, 2006)

led_shankar said:
			
		

> Of course not... What a waste of money all religious festivities are.



Excuse  Me ! dude any such ban amounts to breach of freedom to choose and practice religious activities which is both a fundamental and a human right we live in a secular state which follows all religions and not atheist state besides any human rights breach is a shame for entire nation


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## Zeeshan Quireshi (Aug 15, 2006)

well if the idols do not contain toxic material , or any other material that will cause harm , then it's okay otherwise a big noo .


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## __Virus__ (Aug 15, 2006)

led_shankar said:
			
		

> Of course not... What a waste of money all religious festivities are.



can u justify ur statement plz?


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## mediator (Aug 15, 2006)

Well I think...........Ganesh immersions shud be done by holy,religious leaders only and not by everyone. If immersions are carried out on large scale it will only lead to water pollution. And also these idols shud be made of eco-friendly materials!
Also there shud be a ban on slaughter of cows practised in temples, a small amount of crackers shud be burst to fullfill happiness on Diwali........but not doing major air pollution.

Likewise I think in on the auspicious day of "ID" of Muslims...........there shud be no slaughter of goats!

I think all religions shud ban on anykind of slaughter of animals or human sacrifices. If religions preach non-violence..........then animals shud be saved from such heinous acts!


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## Apollo (Aug 15, 2006)

Immersion is essential to the ritual.  I can't imagine a Ganesh Chaturthi festival without it. 

What needs to be stopped though, is the use of POP in making the idols.  And the use of hazardous paints on them.  Also, the ever-escalating heights of the statues that we see every year(get into Khetwadi, at this moment, and you'll see what I mean).  And the mundane commercialization of the festival via the mandals - it's really sickening.


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## eagle_y2j (Aug 15, 2006)

led_shankar said:
			
		

> Of course not... What a waste of money all religious festivities are.


ugh! another advance 21st century d00d wtf he is challenge 5000yrs+ old traditions . We are here coz only of our traditions . 
*No need to stop Immersions  it doesn't causes more polution than tat factories do to Holy Ganges !*



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Also there shud be a ban on slaughter of cows practised in temples


man r u in ur full senses we Hindus worship  cows how can u say we slaughter them ugh!

Wat do u all say?


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## led_shankar (Aug 15, 2006)

eagle_y2j said:
			
		

> ugh! another advance 21st century d00d wtf he is challenge 5000yrs+ old traditions . We are here coz only of our traditions .



Thanx for the compliment  But I'd like to inform you that these 'old traditions' have not been challenged only by 21st century d00ds. They had been challenged strongly enough by d00ds of the ancient eras too; read about the Carvaks.

Anyway, what I meant was that on an institutionalised level, it does lead to a lot of wastage of resources, which ought to be diverted to stuff like security, poverty alleviation and civic amenities. And while it is true that many industries flourish because of these festivities, they cannot be encouraged at the cost of the environment. You might say that the problem could be resolved amicably if the idols were made of organic matter only. but a legislation to this effect would be very hard to enforce, since the industries involved are not organised, and the authorities do not have a reputation for strict enforcement in environmental issues that involve such careful scrutiny.

At the individual level, of course, religious activities are a totally private matter, and have no implications to societal resources. Unless of course, they cause direct harm to other peace loving members of society. So, when you play with the environment by immersing idols in water bodies that are not your private property, you do a great disservice to the community.


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## mediator (Aug 15, 2006)

eagle_y2j said:
			
		

> man r u in ur full senses we Hindus worship cows how can u say we slaughter them ugh!


I know that!.......But the Nepalese authorities went away because they were asked to slaughter cow in some temples. I didnt mean that we Hindus slaughter cows on festivals or daily. But only meant was slaughter of animals shud also be banned !


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## __Virus__ (Aug 15, 2006)

mediator said:
			
		

> Well I think...........Ganesh immersions shud be done by holy,religious leaders only and not by everyone.



Cant agree better.



			
				mediator said:
			
		

> Likewise I think in on the auspicious day of "ID" of Muslims...........there shud be no slaughter of goats!





			
				mediator said:
			
		

> I think all religions shud ban on anykind of slaughter of animals or human sacrifices. If religions preach non-violence..........then animals shud be saved from such heinous acts!



Well a gud question, a very gud one. Lets talk religion later. Apart from religious matter, cows/goats are regulary slaughtered on daily basis and that too in thousands.. yes thousands. If the slaughtering is to be stopped, I think we shall start it right here.

Coming another explanation:

On Eid we do slaughter, it has something to do with what is mentioned in the holy book, I know it sounds shaky but since we are not having a hardcore debate on religious matters, I think this simple defination will justify. And apart from the Bakrid *the Eid what we name as* we (not atleast my family and most of US)  dont really slaughter these animals.



			
				eagle_y2j said:
			
		

> man r u in ur full senses we Hindus worship  cows how can u say we slaughter them ugh!



I dont really think he meant that.


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## mediator (Aug 15, 2006)

__Virus__ said:
			
		

> I dont really think he meant that.


Thanx for the backing bro!



			
				__Virus__ said:
			
		

> If the slaughtering is to be stopped, I think we shall start it right here.


Totally agreed!


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## __Virus__ (Aug 16, 2006)

mediator said:
			
		

> Thanx for the backing bro!
> 
> 
> Totally agreed!



anytime my best buddy


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## TechGuru#1 (Aug 16, 2006)

Festival time..the ONLY time,i can look forward 2 my Life & get my batteries re-charged!!!
Expect  & Long for that throughout the year!!!! Gets highly addictive & Nostalgic!
Can't live without festivals & 2 be precise the festive spirit!
After a Year Long wait......its like a Drop of Rain in the scorched SAHARA desert!
Man,whatever u complain.dont the least complain abt Festivals.....it is what makes, many of ours life, going!!!


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## mediator (Aug 16, 2006)

TechGuru#1 said:
			
		

> Festival time..the ONLY time,i can look forward 2 my Life & get my batteries re-charged!!!
> Expect  & Long for that throughout the year!!!! Gets highly addictive & Nostalgic!
> Can't live without festivals & 2 be precise the festive spirit!
> After a Year Long wait......its like a Drop of Rain in the scorched SAHARA desert!
> Man,whatever u complain.dont the least complain abt Festivals.....it is what makes, many of ours life, going!!!



Totally agreed + we get holidays tooooooo! But the happiness wud increase exponentially if we are able to Njoy the festivals properly without any killings or environmental degradation!


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## __Virus__ (Aug 16, 2006)

mediator said:
			
		

> Totally agreed + we get holidays tooooooo! But the happiness wud increase exponentially if we are able to Njoy the festivals properly without any killings or environmental degradation!



I second that. No one is killing the festives techG. We had been and we will b celebrating it in full swings but must make sure that our days or celebrations are not hazards for coming years to the environment.


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## led_shankar (Aug 16, 2006)

man, here i type a long reply, and no one even reads it.


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## mediator (Aug 16, 2006)

led_shankar said:
			
		

> man, here i type a long reply, and no one even reads it.


I read it...I back it!


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## abhishekkulkarni (Aug 17, 2006)

*Absolutely not !!! It should be banned by law . *


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## mediator (Aug 17, 2006)

abhishekkulkarni said:
			
		

> *Absolutely not !!! It should be banned by law . *



Here we go! We have a member who staunchly supports the ban. Fight Club begins now!
But saar after reading all previous posts wud u mind telling us atleast why it shud be banned?
I suggest u to quote all the points in previous posts of "ganesh immersion supporting" members and tell us why they r wrong! Please do so!

And one more thing its a religious matter! Why it shud be banned by LAW?? How come LAW thing comes in between?


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## led_shankar (Aug 17, 2006)

@mediayor: well, you could say i jumpstarted it somewhat, no?


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## mediator (Aug 17, 2006)

@led_shankar............Nah dood! A fightclub is started only when someone strongly opposes the suggested topic ! Till now we had members who opposed with vague reasons. But no one strongly said and that too in one line that "it shud be banned and thats it....keh diya bas keh diya!"....Huh!
But now we have a member who says so! But didnt give any argument for it at all !!

Lets hope this guy gives some strong arguments......keeping in mind all the previous posts and lets see how much he can entertain me!!!


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## arunks (Aug 17, 2006)

it shuld be banned by people itself


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## mediator (Aug 18, 2006)

desmataks said:
			
		

> it shuld be banned by people itself


  U telling hinduism shud be banned? Seems ur anti-hindu! So what religion u from? ANd what country? Are u a politician?


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## led_shankar (Aug 18, 2006)

um, I think he meant the immersion should be banned, not the religion. And besides, he does not need to have a religion to be anti-Hindu, does he?


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## kumarmohit (Aug 18, 2006)

Cut it ppl See I told you earlier religion is not to be interefered by law in our ctry Its not constitutional so instead of banning immersion a regulation must be done on what the statues are made of; besides with POP a lot of earthenware workers have lost work. Stone and earth statues will allow them to get some business too.


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## Yamaraj (Aug 18, 2006)

Immersion should be banned with immediate effect. Religion is not as important
as the existance and health of the people and rivers.
IMHO, religions and beliefs are private issues and people should keep them upto
themselves. They should never be allowed to interfere with laws or public health.

In fact, I think that an ideal Government shouldn't even recognize any religion
officially. And while we're at it, factories with no wastage management should
also be banned. Animal sacrifices should be banned too, ragardless of religions
or their supporters. Being a vegetarian, I also call for some sympathy towards
innocent animals and little birds. Spare the living being please, there'e enough
food now.


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## led_shankar (Aug 18, 2006)

wow Yamaraj! I did not expect such a response from a mythologically important character as you?


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## mediator (Aug 18, 2006)

Yamaraj said:
			
		

> In fact, I think that an ideal Government shouldn't even recognize any religion
> officially. And while we're at it, factories with no wastage management should
> also be banned. Animal sacrifices should be banned too, ragardless of religions
> or their supporters. Being a vegetarian, I also call for some sympathy towards
> ...



Ahh! A Maoist from patna! ...... Neways Its not possible for anyone to live without religion. Having faith, asking the destiny to flower luck, believing etc is all religion if u think in broader sense!!   .......... Read Bhagvad Gita......for further enlightenment!


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## Yamaraj (Aug 18, 2006)

Religion is the opiate of the masses.

I do not have any faith. I do not believe in destiny or luck. I have absolutely
no beliefs whatsoever. And I do not subscribe to any religion.

My point is that if you cannot develop morality and conscience on your own,
without the help(?) of so-called religious and spiritual leaders, you have failed
as a person. If you pay daily visits to religious places for your own well-being,
and yet have no respect for other living beings, you have failed as a human.

Most of the people are religious because they're greedy and selfish. God is a
poor helpless dude who has to listen to the endless ramblings of his minions.
He has to fullfil the desires of the believers, else they'll find another God for
the same. He has got a broad shoulder for all the psychos to lean onto and cry
their wildest of dreams to become true. He's got no option but to provide free
passport to Heaven to all. And what Heaven? Where people are no less glamorous
than Hollywood, and no less fashionable than Milan. Where the fairies are more
beautiful than those from Vegas. And dances so erotic, you would forget Crazy
Horse downright. Where the Lord Indra is more powerful and full of sexual energy,
that even the Romans cannot surpass. Such is our promised Heaven!

I hope all you religous people get whatever you're promised. But truth be told,
this World is much more truthful, exciting and full of life than the promised
land of dreams. Land your feet onto Earth, for you've been flying so long!

I may as well belong to Hell, after I finish my life on Earth.


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## led_shankar (Aug 19, 2006)

@yamaraj: you have  faith in communism, and marx is your prophet

note - I am an atheist/apatheist too


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## mediator (Aug 19, 2006)

Whoooofff @Yamaraj.....!

I dont know why u have these perceptions about religion. But whatever u said above also comes under religion.




			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> I do not have any faith. I do not believe in destiny or luck. I have absolutely
> no beliefs whatsoever


Thats gita's sloka. "Karamerne vadikaraste mafaleshu kadachana........abhyuthana adharmasya". That means dont rely on destiny...have faith in urself...do work but dont try to dream of the result! If u dont rely on others then u must be having a lotta faith in urself. Then how come u say ..... u dont have anyfaith. Now dont say u dont have faith in urself tooooo or u'll be making a serious mockery,a big joke of urself!



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> My point is that if you cannot develop morality and conscience on your own,
> without the help(?) of so-called religious and spiritual leaders, you have failed
> as a person. If you pay daily visits to religious places for your own well-being,
> and yet have no respect for other living beings, you have failed as a human.


I forgot the sloka for this one...but it says "Knowing oneself is dharma.....". Bro....Mah family is arya samaji....We see hindu gods as good people..who must have come on earth sometime.
But I also believe strongly in GITA. I dont follow any religious leader....but I do filter out there teachings and the things a good citizen/father/brother/a person shud do! I also dont visit religious places...coz its the innerds of u that reflect in temples and whenever worship be its a holy place or regular street.
Its like worshipping ur father. Dont u listen to ur father whenevr he says something? or scolds u for doing wrong thing? u listen to him coz u know he is wise and is saying good for u. And how do u know he is wise?
The same is thing for religious leaders. First we develop some respect for them....then only we do listen!!!! can we listen to a leader who himself talks crap?? Do u listen to all leaders be it religious or political ?? Do u listen to Arjun Singh?? And why does the world is listening to Baba RamdeV so attentively?? he isnt telling anyone religious!! Does he?? He's only telling ppl the ways that are benefecial for human beings, i.e excerices!! Thats it. A gym coach also tells u the best excercises....will u say he's a religious leader??

its upto the world to listen!! So u see nobody follows or listens a person/leader without any reason!! As I asked do listen to ur parents without any reason??




			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Most of the people are religious because they're greedy and selfish


I can synonymise this line of urs to political people like arjun singh! 




			
				Yamaraj said:
			
		

> God is a
> poor helpless dude who has to listen to the endless ramblings of his minions.
> He has to fullfil the desires of the believers, else they'll find another God for
> the same. He has got a broad shoulder for all the psychos to lean onto and cry
> their wildest of dreams to become true.


Looks like lines from some english novel!!




			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> vAnd what Heaven? Where people are no less glamorous
> than Hollywood, and no less fashionable than Milan. Where the fairies are more
> beautiful than those from Vegas. And dances so erotic, you would forget Crazy
> Horse downright. Where the Lord Indra is more powerful and full of sexual energy,
> that even the Romans cannot surpass. Such is our promised Heaven!



I dunno what is heaven for u?? All the worly pleasure I guess...as u quoted!   But for me its giving love to loved ones,completing the necessary tasks and aims, mountains,rivers,winters,wet forests etc etc. 
Heaven is nothing but other name of what u desire of and what gives u immense happiness!!



			
				Yamaraj said:
			
		

> I hope all you religous people get whatever you're promised. But truth be told,
> this World is much more truthful, exciting and full of life than the promised
> land of dreams. Land your feet onto Earth, for you've been flying so long!


Some religious ppl dont ask anything. As Gita says desire is human enemy!!
Well I'll say if u desire of whatever u quoted in above text of promised land of dreams and fantasy etc.......then I seriously pity u!!




			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> I may as well belong to Hell, after I finish my life on Earth.


Wake up before its too late or else u'll suffer so! Know urself!!


Gita doesnt says anything about hinduism! It doesnt even says to people to follow hinduism or all the gods come under hinduism. Its only the ppl who have christened the holy teachings as hinduism!!

I CHALLENGE u PUBLICLY  to read GITA for once if u have the courage, by heart, line by line,with proper understanding, like ur listening to ur father and then say the definition of the word Religion!


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## __Virus__ (Aug 19, 2006)

I remember mediators one particular line which said " Religious leaders should b the one who must take honors of immersions" and I still echo the same.. seeing all above posts.. the topic is a bit too slipping...


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## Yamaraj (Aug 19, 2006)

led_shankar said:
			
		

> @yamaraj: you have  faith in communism, and marx is your prophet



Like I said before, I don't have any faith and belief. None whatsoever in
Communism, and Marx is not my prophet. I do agree with him most of the times,
but that doesn't make me a Communist. I have my own philosophy of life.


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## led_shankar (Aug 19, 2006)

considering you quote his work like a shastra, ("religion is the opiate of the masses"), I'd say you do.

And besides, you have faith in your philosophy of life. you can't say you don't have *any* faith


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## Yamaraj (Aug 19, 2006)

@led_shankar
'Any' implied god(s) or religions. I do have faith in myself.
I do agree with Marx on the issue of religions, hence the quote. Organized
religion is no different from organized mafia or bad governments. Ever notice
how the 'Sadhus' kill each other on the issue of money donated to temples?
Do you realize how powerful and rich they have become? Religions and their
self-proclaimed leaders are not about spirituality anymore. Some awkward
person with cheap magic tricks declares himself an incarnation of Vishnu, and
the rest start worshipping an alive person. What is this? I can prove that such
worshippers are clinically insane, and should be put into mental asylums.

What bothers me is the sheer number of such psychologically challanged people.
I recommend you read works of Bertrand Russell and others who understand the
human mind and its complexities. Gods and religions are the by-products of
the chemical and electrical reactions of the neurons.

@mediator
I have read Gita, and I understand it's above the religion in its teachings.
I had finished reading both Ramayana and Mahabharata before I turned 11, BTW.
Sanskrit was my favorite subject in school. I'm not against spirituality, but
I strongly oppose to organized religions and stupid spiritual leaders who have
little clue what they are talking about.

Heaven is nothing to me. Heaven and Hell are devised by people who have to
resort to extreme ends of any problem. It was a simple and effective tool to
keep greedy people in line with morality. It has no meaning now.

I can't tell happiness from sorrow. I accept both with neutrality and equality.
But if you think that desiring Worldly pleasures is pitiful, then you're on shaky
grounds. Gita falls flat on its face here. Desires are not bad themselves. What
really matters is how you chase your desires and dreams. 'All Karma and no
desires' is easy to preach, but impossible to practise. You cannot expect a
lowly human being to work hard all day and have no pleasures at all. Do you?


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## led_shankar (Aug 19, 2006)

@yamaraj: I've read some Russell, and he is very good. In fact, you're being overly dramatic, but most of our main points are the same. P.S. - Religion cannot be  banned, because it is not systematic. It is systemic.

As far as the idolatory is concerned (esp. of the kind like the Vishnu impersonator), you ought to realise that a) the followers of these people do not really represent religious people as such and b) these are not more than fads, that fade away quickly. 

Also, it is rude to call religious people mentally handicapped, especially since modern psychology has proved that religious people generally lead mentally more balanced and secure lives than the non-religious types. Now, I am, as I said before, an apatheist (*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism) and I also do not like mass-scale religions (see the  previous posts which seemed to piss a lot of people off), but I do respect those who do not agree  with me, even  if I think they are wrong, and that is something  you need  to work on.


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## Yamaraj (Aug 19, 2006)

Dramatic? Care to point where?
You have heard of that Hyderabadi Sai baba, haven't you? His 'fame' hasn't
faded away yet, and millions worship him as if he were a living deity. Shameful!

Religions can be banned. They are not one of the inherent properties of a
natural life. Also, most religious people don't take religions as seriously as you
think they do. If not, how do you justify change of religions? How do such people
grow sudden disbelief in the gods and religion they've been following all their lives?

IMHO, the existence of gods and religions is irrelevent to the human life.


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## mediator (Aug 19, 2006)

Wohoooooo.....@Yamaraj......seems ur in action now....may be we can talk then!!
u dont belive in religion...still have a name registered as yamaraj?? Dont say its cool to have such a name now!! That wud be hilarious!
Just because they preach religion u dont follow religious leader.  Anyways how u define religion?? And religious leaders?? Please give me ur definition instead from some links. 



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> I recommend you read works of Bertrand Russell and others who understand the
> human mind and its complexities.


Wow first u say u dont follow anyone....then u say read works of some englishman! Why do u need to read the works of englishman...just because the prefix religious is not attached to him??
See man spitituality comes from within and wiseness ....and wiseness comes from experience. i donno how old are u to be called spiritual or wise.......but these religions are nothing but compilation of these spiritual thoughts only.



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> 'Any' implied god(s) or religions. I do have faith in myself.





			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> I do not have any faith. I do not believe in destiny or luck. I have absolutely
> no beliefs whatsoever. And I do not subscribe to any religion.


Which quote of urs is true? Which faith line is true??

If u have faith then u either have it or not have it. Make up ur mind first!!

U talk that religious leaders are crap and are money minded.......AGREED most are!! But NOT ALL and they dont deserve to be called leaders in any sense. I dunno if u have explored life or not.....whether u have surpassed the mountains of kedarnath......but once in ur life time go there....if u have courage to climb those mountains....ur thoughts will be revived!
There was one religious hindu man...with long beard and orange clothes. We got lost someplace in the evening....and that man helped us all the way and didnt ask for a single penny...just a glass of water!! AND u say ALL reigious leaders are greedy. I pity u! 
U havent seen real religious leaders then!



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Heaven is nothing to me. Heaven and Hell are devised by people who have to
> resort to extreme ends of any problem. It was a simple and effective tool to
> keep greedy people in line with morality. It has no meaning now.


Wow ur thoughts?? or some novel copycat?? Looks like lines from the biography of some frustrated man!
Neways if u see day, then u'll see night......if u experience sorrow , u'll experience happiness. How will u tell what is night,sorrow if there were no day,happiness??
Thats not  something only religious leaders preach....thats something ur parents also do teach. U'll say ur parents teachings is a crap now and that they r fools who have devised simple and effective tool to keep people in line with morality????

Its Ok to have ur thoughts.....but dont call other ppl thoughts or teachings which they have accumulated iver the years of pain,suffering and observation+facts or ur own thoughts will be made a mockery of!! I pity u if u dont listen to others....and try to say that ur right!!
But I think u havent really met a spiritual leader or a religious leader!!



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> I'm not against spirituality, but
> I strongly oppose to organized religions and stupid spiritual leaders who have
> little clue what they are talking about.


Thats why I say u havent met any real religious leader. U say u have read GITA......Lets see....can u tell the difference between spiritality and religion?? Please quote in ur own terms instead of taking help from some stupid site!!  That wud be taking help from some religious leader in ur terms then!!



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> I have read Gita, and I understand it's above the religion in its teachings.
> I had finished reading both Ramayana and Mahabharata before I turned 11, BTW.
> Sanskrit was my favorite subject in school. I'm not against spirituality, but
> I strongly oppose to organized religions and stupid spiritual leaders who have
> little clue what they are talking about.


Soo what r u trying to accompish?? A brand new religion of ur own??



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> But if you think that desiring Worldly pleasures is pitiful, then you're on shaky
> grounds. Gita falls flat on its face here. Desires are not bad themselves. What
> really matters is how you chase your desires and dreams. 'All Karma and no
> desires' is easy to preach, but impossible to practise. You cannot expect a
> lowly human being to work hard all day and have no pleasures at all. Do you?


U say u read GITA!! And still u trying to mix WORLDY desires with dreams,aims??
Man ur toooooooooo confused! i dont think u have read GITA properly!!

To be honest...I am also against religious leaders who talk crap all the time and they shud be hanged for that. But I also stronlgy support the rel. leaders who know what they r talking of,help others and know spirituality.

i respect ur thoughts.......u have a personal outlook...which i appreciate. But from ur posts it seems ur too confused or having some sort of enmity with some greedy religious leaders who may have harrassed u.
If dont wanna listen to GITA or real religious leaders ...then please dont! But atleast listen to ur parents. I can tell u dont even listen to ur parents....or u wont be posting such stuff like this!


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## led_shankar (Aug 19, 2006)

religion is not an inherent property of humans, but it is a natural tendency of societies. I never believed people (as individuals) take religion that seriously, but societies do.

And  your argument about conversions makes no sense. That just means they believe more in the philosophy of the religion into which they are converting.

And you still do not understand the merit of respecting other people's philospophical viewpoints.

@mediator: and that thing about respect goes for you too.


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## Yamaraj (Aug 19, 2006)

@led_shankar
Societies do not need religions to exist. In fact, there were societies long
before there was any religion. A society is formed on the foundation of mutual
needs. Even some animal species are very social, but they are not religious.
I'll recite again what I've been saying all along: Religions are not necessary.

Why my argument about religion conversion makes no sense to you? People are
never interested in philosophies of their respective religions. All they want is
some capable deity to fullfil their desires. How many Hindus, do you think, have
read and understand Vedas and other scared texts? Very few, IMHO.

I do not have to respect religions and religious people just as most don't respect
mentally ill.

I think we've finally reached to a shared conclusion that religions are not
necessary at all?

@mediator
My nick name has nothing to do with religions at all. As I've stated in previous
posts, I studied both Hindu epics in my childhood. I found that Yamaraj was
one of the most powerful characters of the Hindu life drama, yet he has never
received due credit. I assumed a mythological name to remind myself that
death is the ultimate reality and propagator of life.

I do not 'follow' Russell. I've read most of his works and admire his knowledge.
I have nothing against an Englishman. In fact, I think the British should be
admired for getting us rid of the Mughal Monarchy and for proper legal and
political (thiough corrupted by now) systems. They should also be praised for
integrating the smaller states into a sigle unified country.

For the record, I have read all types of both religious and non-religius books.
And I formed my own opinion about the ways of life and this World. Also, I
don't think my age has to do anything with my wiseness or experience, because
I was reading Sanskrit texts when my school mates were after comics and when
I decided to become a vegetarian at the age 17, my whole family followed suit.
Mind you, the change was not because of any god or religion, but a personal
compassion developed over the years for other living beings. But since you
asked for it, I'm 24.

What is faith? Even the famous serial killers had faith in themselves that whatever
they were doing was perfectly alright. I don't need that much faith; not even
in myself.
Faith isn't based on facts, it is based on belief. And beliefs can never be judged
rationally. This is called blind faith.
When I stated I didn't have any faith, it was meant for both blind and religous
faiths.

The Hindu religious person you encountered was in fact a Sanyasi. A kind I have
much respect for. Not everyone has the courage and curioucity to leave everything
behind in search of oneself. They are not religous necessarily.

English novel copycat? Surely not! Those are my own expressions, and if you
think they're readable enough, I may as well throw in some effot into writing.
How do you tell right from wrong? What if there were no laws, would is still be
moral to kill somebody and get away with it without remose or guilt? What's
your definition of morality and guilt, and how do you deal with it?

In the times of happiness and grief, I only have to remind me of my importance.
That my life is no more important than the life on an oyster. That no joy lasts
forever and there are more griefs to come.


----------



## led_shankar (Aug 19, 2006)

I don't mean societies 'need' religions to exist, I'm saying that they 'tend' to form religious outlooks. It probably has something to do with division of labour (at an analogous level) - leave philosophy to some, others can just follow.

Of course, those who confuse morality with religion probably don't realise that 97% of convicted prisoners are theists.


----------



## kumarmohit (Aug 20, 2006)

Yamaraj said:
			
		

> Like I said before, I don't have any faith and belief. None whatsoever in
> Communism, and Marx is not my prophet. I do agree with him most of the times,
> but that doesn't make me a Communist. I have my own philosophy of life.



LOL that is just like saying I am not a nenveg tho I do eat nonveg food.


----------



## led_shankar (Aug 20, 2006)

hmmmm...If i eat vegetables, do I become a vegetarian?


----------



## mediator (Aug 20, 2006)

Hey man I told u to first tell the definition of religion and religious leaders. Next I asked u deifference between religion and society. I dont see it. I see ur overshadowed and much excited by your own thoughts........but this is a fight Club, not a place to write only ur view points endlessly. Take a break and read all mah views too.
I also asked difference between "Worldy pleasures" and desires/aims. Where is it?
Did I ask too much that it will sack u of ur thoughts??



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Societies do not need religions to exist. In fact, there were societies long
> before there was any religion. A society is formed on the foundation of mutual
> needs. Even some animal species are very social, but they are not religious.
> I'll recite again what I've been saying all along: Religions are not necessary.


Again what is religion for u? Some sort of commercial organization or a mass movement?? huh   



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Why my argument about religion conversion makes no sense to you? People are
> never interested in philosophies of their respective religions


Amuzing....when did religion conversion....got in the debate?? U changed the topic!!
Next "philosophy of religion" ?? Whats that?? I headr of philosophy of life..but religion??



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> All they want is
> some capable deity to fullfil their desires.


How do u know?? Well lemme tell u a story ........
There was a man who got stuck in a flood. He cud have escaped. But relied on God. A helicopter came to help him. But he didnt go..thought God will come. Then a boat came...but he didnt go...thought god will come. And eventually perished.
What do u make out of the story?? What is God?? Inner enlightenment,wiseness or some super hero?? Well the crappy people u say that must have come on earth are no more than wise ppl who must have come on earth. 
Well if there is something like superhero...then we are yet to witness it! I dont think we can all live to see the LAST AVATAR of LORD VISHNU.




			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> I do not have to respect religions and religious people just as most don't respect
> mentally ill.


Ur Having so much spiritual thoughts of ur own...and yet u dont call urself religious. Thats why I ask u to go and revise the difference between religoun and spiritaulity.
Here u are indirectly saying that u dont trust anybody, their thoughts and yourself are mentally ill. Is it? I hope not. Ur are very very confused about religion.

You say u study sanskrit (appreciated), mentioned the word Vedas (Good), told us U read GITA but at the end say the avtars were crappy people??

Once again I ask u to read GITA properly.....a full fledged GITA....not less than 1000 pages with expressive images. Take it from ur elders.
You say u read all that at the age of 11. Did u study in gurukul?? If u had u havent dared to said anything like in above post of urs and defame gurukul!
I see how much u cud have read and understood at the age of 11. A small NCERT textbook is not enough to teach you GITA. Please go home and study real GITA.



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> I think we've finally reached to a shared conclusion that religions are not
> necessary at all?


ALas! Again I ask u what is religion?? And diff bet religion and spirituality! 
Well to be more precise....a person not having religion is like an animal who's soul task is to eat others and spread violence. I see thats why maoists are such nuisance!
Now if u talk about terrorists...or religious terrorists.....Then they are not religious in first place. They have lost all the spirituality and respect for others. They are just like beasts with no brains.



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> I do not 'follow' Russell. I've read most of his works and admire his knowledge.


And where did he gather his knowledge from? Is it different from the knowledge of spiritual or religious leaders??
To be more frank.....we hindus lost our real knowledge of VEDAS somewhere in between in some era in the history. If we havent then u wudnt be praising the work of that Englishman. We wudnt be learning the all the Maths theorams and facts written and proposed by Englishman in first place. That was the power of VEDAS. But the world is witnessing the power of RIG VEDA that is being revived by SWAMI RAM DEV. I'll seriously pity u if u call him crappy person too!



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> I have nothing against an Englishman. In fact, I think the British should be
> admired for getting us rid of the Mughal Monarchy and for proper legal and
> political (thiough corrupted by now) systems. They should also be praised for
> integrating the smaller states into a sigle unified country.


Totally Agreed! I can write endlessly about that the Mughal period was a period of destruction to the country and though the englishmen ruled ...they helped revive our country.



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> For the record, I have read all types of both religious and non-religius books.
> And I formed my own opinion about the ways of life and this World. Also, I
> don't think my age has to do anything with my wiseness or experience, because
> I was reading Sanskrit texts when my school mates were after comics and when
> ...


It seems ur having hard time confessing...but ur being religious urself that way!!




			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> What is faith? Even the famous serial killers had faith in themselves that whatever
> they were doing was perfectly alright. I don't need that much faith; not even
> in myself.


Practise makes man perfect. So a serial killer is very different from first time killer. Ask a first time killer and tell me if he doesnt have a motive for killing! On other hand serial killers dont need motive. Like I said they are just like beasts.
U say u studied works of that ENGLISHMAN abt human psychology.....and u still give such stupid example?? 




			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Faith isn't based on facts, it is based on belief. And beliefs can never be judged
> rationally. This is called blind faith.
> When I stated I didn't have any faith, it was meant for both blind and religous
> faiths.


A child going for examinations has faith that he'll top. Now does that comes from or based on some belief?? or is it his knowledge?? What has blind faith to do here?? Can u ELaborate??




			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> The Hindu religious person you encountered was in fact a Sanyasi. A kind I have
> much respect for. Not everyone has the courage and curioucity to leave everything
> behind in search of oneself. They are not religous necessarily.


Ur again confused!! See da defn bhayaji!! and the diff i asked!!




			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> English novel copycat? Surely not! Those are my own expressions, and if you
> think they're readable enough, I may as well throw in some effot into writing.
> How do you tell right from wrong? What if there were no laws, would is still be
> moral to kill somebody and get away with it without remose or guilt? What's
> your definition of morality and guilt, and how do you deal with it?


If such were the situation..then u wont be here in first place debating without knowing what religion is!! Dont u think its spiritaulity or religion that tells us that one shud have  self-esteem,ethics and it wrong to kill?? Humans have got that gift...or else you and I were to be living like animals.



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> In the times of happiness and grief, I only have to remind me of my importance.
> That my life is no more important than the life on an oyster. That no joy lasts
> forever and there are more griefs to come.


Instead of showing ur own importance...I just recommend u to show love to others......Then instead of counting ur life years and telling ur self no joy last forever....u'll experience something very different. Try it.
I can tell life's been very harsh to u and u relied on GOD heavily for all ur things......but didnt got anything!!

PLEASE for godsake....ok not godsake in ur case.....read FULL FLEDGED GITA serioulsy....and meditate. U'll experience a kinda healing and joy in ur mind!!



			
				led_shankar said:
			
		

> @mediator: and that thing about respect goes for you too.


What wrong did I do? I respect everyones thoughts!! Forgive me if I hurt feelings of anyone.
EPEACE


----------



## led_shankar (Aug 20, 2006)

"! Dont u think its spiritaulity or religion that tells us that one shud have self-esteem,ethics and it wrong to kill??"

I'll repeat my statement: 97% of convicted criminals are religious.

@Yamaraj: people don't have respect for mentally ill  people, huh? well, that is just gross and disgusting. They deserve respect as much as anyone else does.


----------



## mediator (Aug 20, 2006)

led_shankar said:
			
		

> "! Dont u think its spiritaulity or religion that tells us that one shud have self-esteem,ethics and it wrong to kill??"
> 
> I'll repeat my statement: 97% of convicted criminals are religious.
> 
> @Yamaraj: people don't have respect for mentally ill  people, huh? well, that is just gross and disgusting. They deserve respect as much as anyone else does.



Ok I see so ur confused too now?? Ok Then u too can tell me the difference between religion and spirituality and may be the definition of religion in ur own terms!

I ask u one question.....All those figthing in name of  ISLAM and creating terror...are they really religious?? ISLAM itself denounces violence, then how come they spread terror?? They keep saying this is written in QUaran and that is written.....ans ISLAM asks for revenge and jihad. Please show me where si it written??
In language of @yamaraj...I'll say these are the fake religious people or crappy ppl!!

Hmmm. so 97% is ur figure?? And how many of do u think are spiritual?? May be none!! How many of them are mentally diseased and need ailment?? May be All.
A recent study from tihar jail and some others too showed that a yoga excerice and some spiritual lessons increased their mental health to a great extent and the prisoners then talked like never seen before.

I request all those who post their comments to first see the definition of religion and difference between religion and spirituality if it exists!! All those fighting in name of religion are murderers of religion itself!!


----------



## __Virus__ (Aug 20, 2006)

mediator said:
			
		

> I ask u one question.....All those figthing in name of  ISLAM and creating terror...are they really religious?? ISLAM itself denounces violence, then how come they spread terror?? They keep saying this is written in QUaran and that is written.....ans ISLAM asks for revenge and jihad. Please show me where si it written??



Islam prohibits violence, terror, revenge, Jihad.

Jihad: many many ppl have a big misconception about this word now.. if a spiritual leader or any respected islamic leader declares JIhad ( without giving the appropriate justification) on someone/country, its pure BS. Jihad is not to bomb, kill, revenge, hatred. Indeed Jihad is Islamic war declared by highest of the clerics when the injustice is at its max and intolerable and its not acceptable if someone calling himself islamic cleric and declares JIhad and keeps on bombimb ppl/trains/mandirs/universities...if one tries to wage a war due to the meanness in them, and naming it Jihad, its seriously a big no no.. all **** is 'mean, they name it islamic war/ Jihad and lure those innocent minds and u know what all happens.

97% percent of terrorists are religious

98 that 97% psycos


----------



## mediator (Aug 20, 2006)

__Virus__ said:
			
		

> Islam prohibits violence, terror, revenge, Jihad.
> 
> Jihad: many many ppl have a big misconception about this word now.. if a spiritual leader or any respected islamic leader declares JIhad ( without giving the appropriate justification) on someone/country, its pure BS. Jihad is not to bomb, kill, revenge, hatred. Indeed Jihad is Islamic war declared by highest of the clerics when the injustice is at its max and intolerable and its not acceptable if someone calling himself islamic cleric and declares JIhad and keeps on bombimb ppl/trains/mandirs/universities...if one tries to wage a war due to the meanness in them, and naming it Jihad, its seriously a big no no.. all **** is 'mean, they name it islamic war/ Jihad and lure those innocent minds and u know what all happens.



I second that!


----------



## led_shankar (Aug 20, 2006)

@Virus, mediator: Spirituality, I agree with. But not religion.


----------



## mediator (Aug 20, 2006)

led_shankar said:
			
		

> @Virus, mediator: Spirituality, I agree with. But not religion.



Why arent u telling the difference i asked?? Its just like u agree what ur mother is saying but not ur fathers wife ( wierd example i know )!!


----------



## led_shankar (Aug 20, 2006)

uff...
Spirituality - is personal, and not **defined** by others' philosophies. It is self-made, though **influenced** by many things, including other people. It is hugely different between any two people.

Religion - is a codified set of rules to follow, that have been pre-decided. It does not leave room  for personal insight and development. It aims to homogenise all its folowers. Ultimately, it seeks to prevent spirituality.


----------



## Yamaraj (Aug 20, 2006)

@mediator
Definition of religion and religious leaders? What I've been explaning all along,
then? I also asked you a few questions about morality, guilt and remorse. May
I request that you read my posts again carefully for my definition of religions
and Gods?

Religion is nothing to me. It was an ancient tool to gather people together who
shared some common beliefs. Most of the times, religions were used for political
or military benefits. Yes, religions are large organizations of people with blind faith.

I think it's you who is actually consufed about religions, philosophy, morality,
conscience, faith and guilt. Blind faith comes from an excessive feeling of guilt.
As some Western philosophers argue about the importance of 'Father' in
Christianity, they say it arises from the guilt of killing one's own father. It has
probably to do something with Frued's Oedipus complex.

It cannot be denied that humans are the most intelligent species on Earth.
We conquered the whole World in our early stages of development, defeating
and taming other rival species. This gave birth to a great ego in mankind. That
the man was the future, the chosen one to rule the World. But, ego also gives
birth to guilt. And this is when Gods steped into our lives. We devised them to
satisfy both our ego of supremacy and the resultant guilt.

Earlier gods were more natural, like the Sun god. But slowly, the ego took over
the guilt and gods became more humanlike. You'll notice that gods in all cultures
ride almost all species, excluding humans. Mankind is hailed as the direct descendent
of the supreme gods. The male ego is so strong is Hindus that we started
worshipping our own penis.

Humans have this strong desire to become gods. Egyptian kings claimed they
were direct descendents of the Sun and various other gods. Our own mythology
is full of such stories where gods impregnated women. I can also relate this
with the Amecian perversion of Alien abduction. Humans have very strange
and perverted fantacies. God is the result of such a fantasy where supreme
power and lust unite.

You say that "a person not having religion is like an animal whose sole task is
to eat others and spread violence". I suggest you spend a little more time
understanding the nature, rather than readymade religions. Not all animals are
carnivores, and even those who are ...they do not spread violence. It's the
humans who do, with all their spirituality and religions.

How many animals have you killed or eaten so far? And how many have you
scarficed to please your gods(ego)? Get real. Get to know nature more.
There was never another species as violent and arrogant as us humans.
Have you ever heard of a World War in a jungle, where a species nuked its own?

Read more about human psychology. You'll have your answers for all of your
questions. You'll then know what ego is, and how it drives the humans to
become the most dangerous species on Earth. You'll then understand what
guilt is about.

Do you know how many lives have been taken in the name of gods worldwide?
Have you ever been to a place where innocent animals are scarificed at mass
level to please a psycho god by psycho believers? They do it for their own
entertainment and to satisfy the need for violence. And they do it in the name
of their god. This is your spirituality?

If Vedas were so scientific, why didn't we develop the modern technology a
thousand years ago? Please, rest this case of FUD that is spreading like a
wildfire. Westerners are better scientific people in general. They even stood
against their religion in favor of science and quest. And 'Swami' Ramdev is not
reviving any Veda. He is reviving his future and fortune. He knew how to attract
media and attention and did so successfully. He's probably a billioniare by now.

Religions preach compassion, non-violence, ethics and morality? Wrong!
If it were the way you think it is, there would be no killings, no nuclear bombs,
no animals sacrifices, no murders, no stealings and no hatred.

Wake up! You're living in a dreamworld of Utopia. It doesn't exist.

@Virus
Islam doesn't prohibit violence, terror, revenge or jihad. This type of statements
are being issued by some Muslims to take away the focus on real problems of
Islam. They're spreading FUD, and unfortunately the international media plays
along. The very foundation of Islam is hatred and violence.



			
				led_shankar said:
			
		

> Religion - is a codified set of rules to follow, that have been pre-decided. It does not leave room  for personal insight and development. It aims to homogenise all its folowers. Ultimately, it seeks to prevent spirituality.



Exactly!
mediator's problem is that he cannot tell spirituality from religion. They're
very different things, and as I said before, a real spiritual Sage in the search
for oneself and knowledge is not necessarily religious.

Religions are institutions. And institutionalization is about suppression of individuality.


----------



## mediator (Aug 20, 2006)

led_shankar said:
			
		

> Spirituality - is personal, and not **defined** by others' philosophies. It is self-made, though **influenced** by many things, including other people. It is hugely different between any two people.
> 
> Religion - is a codified set of rules to follow, that have been pre-decided. It does not leave room for personal insight and development. It aims to homogenise all its folowers. Ultimately, it seeks to prevent spirituality


Absolutely wrong!! and religion....a set of rules...and that too pre-decided?? How absurd! and totally obscure!! Did Lord Krishna write these rules. Did Jesus or Prohpet Muhammad wrote these rules ad told my religion is christianity or Islam...and u must follow these rules?? Did Krishna told I'll be preaching hinduism...and u shud write the syllabus for it?? Think again!!



			
				led_shankar said:
			
		

> Spirituality - is personal, and not **defined** by others' philosophies. It is self-made, though **influenced** by many things, including other people. It is hugely different between any two people.


Very near!!
Thats why I asked u diff the difference!!



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> It was an ancient tool to gather people together who
> shared some common beliefs. Most of the times, religions were used for political
> or military benefits. Yes, religions are large organizations of people with blind faith.


A tool?? Wow!! Ur parents trying to teach u basics of life.....will u call them using some sort of tool to control u?? And the military benifit thing.....thats a problem caused by rowdt elements that need to eradicated



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> I think it's you who is actually consufed about religions, philosophy, morality,
> conscience, faith and guilt. Blind faith comes from an excessive feeling of guilt.
> As some Western philosophers argue about the importance of 'Father' in
> Christianity, they say it arises from the guilt of killing one's own father. It has
> probably to do something with Frued's Oedipus complex


On contrary I'l say this discussion is very refreshing to me spiritualy/religiously!
religions, philosophy, morality,conscience, faith and guilt....so many words u said. These all come under spirituality dear....think again!! And for the guilt/father thing u said it itself is very spiritual and religious!!



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> It cannot be denied that humans are the most intelligent species on Earth.
> We conquered the whole World in our early stages of development, defeating
> and taming other rival species. This gave birth to a great ego in mankind. That
> the man was the future, the chosen one to rule the World. But, ego also gives
> ...



First u said U dont believ in God then u say God stepped in our lives?? Why dont u say the mankind became spiritual/religious....and then benevolence started taking shape! If ur not spiritual then are u still in early era of early-man??



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Earlier gods were more natural, like the Sun god. But slowly, the ego took over
> the guilt and gods became more humanlike. You'll notice that gods in all cultures
> ride almost all species, excluding humans. Mankind is hailed as the direct descendent
> of the supreme gods. The male ego is so strong is Hindus that we started
> worshipping our own penis.


I dunno what stupid stories ur trying to fabricate. I see that ur so fed up that u dream such things and even ........hahahahaha......worship ur own penis!! UR UNIQUE!! So how u worship it?? with flowers? Elaborate! PLEASE and let showcase ur spirtuality in this context to the digit members. REAL AMUZING!! 



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Humans have this strong desire to become gods. Egyptian kings claimed they
> were direct descendents of the Sun and various other gods. Our own mythology
> is full of such stories where gods impregnated women. I can also relate this
> with the Amecian perversion of Alien abduction. Humans have very strange
> ...


What the crap are posting man. Neways u may become a best sellers for ur fantasies!
U say u r 24 yrs old and spiritual....and still in DREAMS?? This was real childish!! But yea one thing agreed...americans are stupid!!
Neways lemme explain hinduism is as old as earth itself.....and therefore many versions and stories have taken place because of changes that place in information which generations pass to younger generation. A sentence can't remain the same if one person pass it to another and this takes like 100 times!!



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> You say that "a person not having religion is like an animal whose sole task is
> to eat others and spread violence". I suggest you spend a little more time
> understanding the nature, rather than readymade religions. Not all animals are
> carnivores, and even those who are ...they do not spread violence. It's the
> ...


Hey man....there is not world war in jungles! But yeah there is constant killing if u see the bigger picture! And when did nukes come in this fight club??
I really see how much u r fed up with spirituality and religion.
I see u live in patna. May thats why u dont believ or have faith in one.I can understand ur situation!!



			
				yamarj said:
			
		

> Read more about human psychology. You'll have your answers for all of your
> questions. You'll then know what ego is, and how it drives the humans to
> become the most dangerous species on Earth. You'll then understand what
> guilt is about.


U said a lot abt ur psychology and ur believes. Now lemme tell my belief.....I personally believe people who study human psychology are bigger psychos!
And why do u wann study human psychology......understand ur bosy system and psychology first!!



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Do you know how many lives have been taken in the name of gods worldwide?
> Have you ever been to a place where innocent animals are scarificed at mass
> level to please a psycho god by psycho believers? They do it for their own
> entertainment and to satisfy the need for violence. And they do it in the name
> of their god. This is your spirituality?


Just another absurd,obsure psycho belief by a stereotype psycho!! Not mah spirituality boy....but I see its certainly urs!! And I can see a big psycho Im debating to!
God is just for name.....we also conside our parents as GOD! u trying to call ur parents as pyschos?? Thats brilliant!!




			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> If Vedas were so scientific, why didn't we develop the modern technology a
> thousand years ago? Please, rest this case of FUD that is spreading like a
> wildfire. Westerners are better scientific people in general. They even stood
> against their religion in favor of science and quest. And 'Swami' Ramdev is not
> ...


I see ur not a Hindu then!! U didnt read mah posts did u?? i told u we lost our major knowledge of VEDA during some period and still u cry that we didnt develop or revive VEDAS??
Again I ask u to see dif between religion and spirituality!! Westerners are ****!! They always steal thing from others!! And I caan write articles about it!
About Ram dev u said...........man u just talk like that stupid psycho ARJUN SINGH without knowing anything and making CASTLES IN AIR. So how much u know he have in bank account?? Please elaborate!
I think ur being jealous of the prosperity of hindus and there spiritual highness!!

Westerners being better scientific?? Arybhatta proposed the Earth revolving abt Sun and some maths theorams much earlier than stupid americans. And u say westerners are better!! PITY u!



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Religions preach compassion, non-violence, ethics and morality? Wrong!
> If it were the way you think it is, there would be no killings, no nuclear bombs,
> no animals sacrifices, no murders, no stealings and no hatred.


Again ur saying same stuff! Thats just wrong. Its just ill minded ppl who kill in name of religion.



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Wake up! You're living in a dreamworld of Utopia. It doesn't exist.


Far from it......but ur the one who wont be able to wake up ever.........as I can see that ur certainly worship your penis as u confessed!!



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> They're
> very different things, and as I said before, a real spiritual Sage in the search
> for oneself and knowledge is not necessarily religious.


Wow ur living in dream world of Utopia..huh?? Sorry dream world of ur penis as from ur confession!!



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Religions are institutions


Absolutely wrong!



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> And institutionalization is about suppression of individuality.


Who says?....only u! Going to schools...did it suppress ur individuality?? Ahh sorry ur in PATNA I forgot that!! 


Anyways keeping writing ur fictitious stories......was quite bored with SANTA BANTA jokes.....ur stories and ur worship experiences of ur PENIS are better and very amuzing!!


Finally I can get to see a psycho with psycho thoughts trying to preach how to worship his PENIS!!!


EPEACE!


----------



## Yamaraj (Aug 20, 2006)

Seriously, how old are you?
Ever heard of the Hindu god Shiva? It was not my penis that I was taking about. Hah!
And please, learn to use proper English. The u's, ur's and the sloppy writing style makes my eyes sore.

BTW, my place (Patna) is definitely better than yours (In ur Evil Mind!). Need a lecture on your own
psychology?


----------



## led_shankar (Aug 20, 2006)

decided not necessarily by a single person, but by a coalition of disparate individuals


----------



## Yamaraj (Aug 20, 2006)

@mediator
Let's keep the parents out of this discussion. I consider them parents only, not
gods or deities. They are human beings too, and make mistakes as usual. I'm
not into any kind of worshipping, and that includes humans too.

You've a very messed up idea of what spirituality and religion are. Philosophy,
morality, conscience, faith and guilt aren't even remotely concerned with
religions or spirituality.

Mankind was never spiritual. Religions are a veil for those who cannot afford
to be rational. Religions are nihilistic.

Why did 'worshipping penis' sound so funny to you? If you're a Hindu, you must
have bowed before one at least once in your life. Granted, it was not mine or
yours own, but it was a penis indeed! What's so funny? I made a valid and
serious point and your blew it away in a laugh. Because you didn't have any
answer?

Hinduism is as old as the Earth itself? Should I recommend a mental clinic?

You're unworthy of an important discussion. Sure, there is a lot of killing in the
jungle, but it's not violence as you suggested earlier. Violence is killing without
meaning or a novel purpose. Carnivores cannot feed on herbs; they've to kill
others to survive. But, humans are the real violent animals.

And next time if you have to make fun of the place I live, come up with a valid
point. Not only it is offensive, but it also shows your immaturity.

Psychologists are psychos? Please, take a break!

Calling me a psycho only because I showed you a mirror? Accept it or not, but
many so called spiritual people will only preach after a session of kababs and
liquor. Go, become a vegetarian first and then talk to me about spirituality and
violence. Your parents are gods? Happy human worshipping!

So I'm not a Hindu anymore only because I refute your false claims of superiority
of Vedas over the Western science? Ah, I forgot ...this Internet and your PC
was also developed by some baba 3000 years ago. Grow up! Accept the hard truth.

Spiritual highness and Ramdev? Pardon me, but he makes such stupid claims
that I cannot take him seriously anymore. He belongs to the modern baba
breed, that spreads FUD and cares more for their bank accounts. Yoga curing
Cancer and AIDS? Must be on cracks!

Aryabhatta didn't take Saturn-5 to the moon. Vedas didn't provide you the TV,
fridge, cars, bikes, radio, planes, ships, computers, Internet. Don't make laughable
claims. Like I said before, you're still living in a dreamworld. Wake up!

Also, you've no idea what institutionalization is. Schools, colleges, military and
jails do suppress one's individuality. You don't have to respond to every point
I make, just because you can. Think before you write.


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## __Virus__ (Aug 20, 2006)

mediator said:
			
		

> Absolutely wrong!! and religion....a set of rules...and that too pre-decided?? How absurd! and totally obscure!! Did Lord Krishna write these rules. Did Jesus or Prohpet Muhammad wrote these rules ad told my religion is christianity or Islam...and u must follow these rules?? Did Krishna told I'll be preaching hinduism...and u shud write the syllabus for it?? Think again!!



Yes, religion is indeed a set of rules made, pre-decided, must be followed. Those rules are true to extremity, withtout an ounce of doubt. Not telling about any other religion, cos I have absolute 0 knowledge about them, not completely unaware, though. Now, rules are not *writing the last post's line* what u or me or so called Jihadi's or Communists brags about and tries to implement on others, they are set of rules defined and must be followed, written only in the Holy Book, Quran *for Islam*, other have their holy followings too. The rules are set in such a manner, which upon being followed, will truly let a human live the best life. Am sure every religion does have a set of rules like for ex: Respect, Truth, Help, Prayers, No Back/bad bites, Fear of the almighty, and all.


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## mediator (Aug 20, 2006)

yamaraj said:
			
		

> You've a very messed up idea of what spirituality and religion are. Philosophy,
> morality, conscience, faith and guilt aren't even remotely concerned with
> religions or spirituality.


Ok long now.....lemme tell the defn of sprituality!
Spirituality is nothing but knowing urself, ur surrounding, what is right, what shud be done, and we shud live! If u know urself...then u'll have faith in urself! U'll know ur positives and negetives and then be able to jusdge ur complete ability! So u see Morality,conscience,faith and guilt are just steps of ladders to completely know urself and know how to live life!




			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Mankind was never spiritual. Religions are a veil for those who cannot afford
> to be rational. Religions are nihilistic.


Wow again u started day dreaming like Arjun singh...huh?? That Religious people are fool, religion is stupid, muslims are craps and ur the BEST?? Wow its actually opposite!

U know what......ur biggest problem is that u see negetive in every system and person!




			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Why did 'worshipping penis' sound so funny to you? If you're a Hindu, you must
> have bowed before one at least once in your life. Granted, it was not mine or
> yours own, but it was a penis indeed! What's so funny? I made a valid and
> serious point and your blew it away in a laugh. Because you didn't have any
> answer?



Cool....u wanna start debate on that now?? o ahead open another thread if u have the GUTS!!
So u say u have bowed to ur penis ?? Huh.....man from what species are u??
In ur school when a teacher asks u something.....u give examples of ur reproductive organs?? DONt u have somethng better?? Ur mind is so full of s_hit because of this thats why u arent spiritual at all. And thats why u keeep making CASTLES IN AIR...that ur the best and muslims are the worst, born killers!
neways it has been proven by ur stupid westerners that ppl who think they are the best are indeed psychos and mentally challenged!




			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Hinduism is as old as the Earth itself? Should I recommend a mental clinic?


U may....but for urself! Neways there is a clinic called "sablok clinic" for ppl like u only! 




			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Calling me a psycho only because I showed you a mirror? Accept it or not, but
> many so called spiritual people will only preach after a session of kababs and
> liquor. Go, become a vegetarian first and then talk to me about spirituality and
> violence. Your parents are gods? Happy human worshipping!


Oh yes! Mah parents are GOD for me...undoubtedly! Didnt ur mother gave birth to u....or u were born sislerian?? Dont u worship her for giving u life as human?? Or u mock her for that.....that this is stupid and u dont blieve in ur mother......she's trying to use a tool to cover u...and all sort of crap u uttered of ur pscycho brain?




			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> So I'm not a Hindu anymore only because I refute your false claims of superiority
> of Vedas over the Western science? Ah, I forgot ...this Internet and your PC
> was also developed by some baba 3000 years ago. Grow up! Accept the hard truth.


Huh, they didnt need to! Ever heard of "Telepathy" dear? I have experienced it....may be u can if may become spiritual! Ever heard of Reiki?? Ever heard of hypnotism? Ur western counterparts are still trying to learn this wehn our spiritual leaders were perfect at it 1000s of years ago! And what is internet and PC.....do u actually need it to survive in this world?? Is i something u cant live without??
Anyways u call urelf hindu sometimes and sometimes u call urself a psycho or non-religious?
Decide what u wanna call urself first dood!!




			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Spiritual highness and Ramdev? Pardon me, but he makes such stupid claims
> that I cannot take him seriously anymore. He belongs to the modern baba
> breed, that spreads FUD and cares more for their bank accounts. Yoga curing
> Cancer and AIDS? Must be on cracks!


Are trying to time pass in this fight club?? Do have a proof or some sting opertion that u done...to prove this? Or ur again in ur pyscho world .....having dreams! That this is wrong that is wrong...and I'm the best!! Some biharis are known to live in such psycho world!!!




			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Aryabhatta didn't take Saturn-5 to the moon. Vedas didn't provide you the TV,
> fridge, cars, bikes, radio, planes, ships, computers, Internet. Don't make laughable
> claims. Like I said before, you're still living in a dreamworld. Wake up!



Ever heard of "Divya drishti" on which whole mahabarat is based?? Dont say now this is crap and by some stupid person.....U'll be making a serious mockery of urself dood!
If u werent in that era...doesnt give u right to say that it was a story!!
Neways what proof do u have that ur a descendent of ur forefathers??

Planes?? Yes u had planes in those eras and they used travel with speed of mind....and so no question of bikes or cars !! I know u'll say this is crap..I wont mind! U study haman psychology...then u must be knowing human doesnt believes in thngs he dont sees from his eyes! Urs is a classic case!!

Fridges?? Do Tribals die if they dont have fridge?? Cmon that was soooooo childish!! Ever heard of preservatives?? Go read bio books then! Some biharis are known to be ignorant and then also uttering psycho stuff...thinking they are the best and whateva they are doing and saying is the best and correct!




			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Also, you've no idea what institutionalization is. Schools, colleges, military and
> jails do suppress one's individuality. You don't have to respond to every point
> I make, just because you can. Think before you write.


Boy....ur every point is quotable and I like to quote ur psycho stuff! U urself are making a mockery of urself here...why dont give others a chance then to do that for u ??



			
				__Virus__ said:
			
		

> Yes, religion is indeed a set of rules made, pre-decided, must be followed. Those rules are true to extremity, withtout an ounce of doubt. Not telling about any other religion, cos I have absolute 0 knowledge about them, not completely unaware, though. Now, rules are not *writing the last post's line* what u or me or so called Jihadi's or Communists brags about and tries to implement on others, they are set of rules defined and must be followed, written only in the Holy Book, Quran *for Islam*, other have their holy followings too. The rules are set in such a manner, which upon being followed, will truly let a human live the best life. Am sure every religion does have a set of rules like for ex: Respect, Truth, Help, Prayers, No Back/bad bites, Fear of the almighty, and all.



Hey bro I already told...Jihadism and communism is a work of some psycho minds who are ignorant themselves, lost there spirituality!!
Like u I also dont know abt other religion....but I certainly dont know if there are rules in Hinduism!! If there are rules...then please do TELL ABOUT A FEW RULES if they exist!!

There may be beliefs like the post u started here.....but thats all created by humans only! Did Ramji say to start DIwali when arived back to ayodhya.....Its only us who do that!
Thats why I said immersions shud be done by religious leaders to support tradition. Otherwise I also wud have supported ban! But if there shud be ban than all such beliefs in all the religions shud be banned!

But I guess this debate turned into a religious(mentally blessed) and non-religious(pyschos) debate!

Neways here we Baba Ram dev who cured a 10000s of ppl overnight and the count of cured still increasing exponentially! And then we have a psycho here...who says thats Baba Ramdev is unreal and alls a crap and I'm the best!
I dunno if he even listens to doctors when they cure! I think he asks them question about there identity then and whether they have a proof of what they r doing! My god what if he asked qustion to his own parents to prove they r really his!!



Heyyyyy @yamaraj ... please try to see positives in every thing. Dont be like Arjun Singh.......or your future will be in a terrible mess! Dont take it as a preaching...but atleast do it for once!


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## led_shankar (Aug 20, 2006)

I think both yamaraj and mediator are being rude, but I'm just curious about one thing......how is yamaraj being like arjun singh lol


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## Yamaraj (Aug 20, 2006)

@mediator
Listen you crazy $hit fsck. Stop talking about my parents. And you need a
strong lesson in English. Despite of me having told you repeatedly about the
Hindu god Shiva and his fame as the Penis God worldwide, you're stuck with
my penis. I've seen many stupid people, but your stupidity is just infinite.

Watch your tongue as you speak! Stop calling me a psycho repeatedly. I'm
reporting your post to the moderators. You shove your religion and spirituality
up your rear, and be happy. I'm out of this nonproductive discussion with a
derailed and unstable person.

BTW, non-religious people are not psychos as you've been singing all along.


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## led_shankar (Aug 20, 2006)

will you people stop fighting.....oh wait, "fight club" lol

Look Mediator, it is a common misconception that non-religious people are psychos. There are many many many atheists who have served Humanity greatly. And like I said before, the overwhelming majority of all criminals are religious.


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## Yamaraj (Aug 20, 2006)

@led_shankar
What's with him repeatedly calling me a 'psycho' and referring to my penis, when
I actually referred to Shiva's lingam? His mental instability is is incredible!

Even many noted feminists have written about the male chauvinism and its
effect on the religion. They are reluctent to bow before a human genital, which
is what I actually referred to. And this pitiful person translates it into me
worshipping my own genitals? I'm speechless.


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## mediator (Aug 21, 2006)

led_shankar said:
			
		

> but I'm just curious about one thing......how is yamaraj being like arjun singh lol


Coz he was saying anything that came outta his mind about Baba ramdev...like arjun singh says abt reservation without even knowing what OBCs are and who actually OBCs are!!



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Islam doesn't prohibit violence, terror, revenge or jihad. This type of statements
> are being issued by some Muslims to take away the focus on real problems of
> Islam. They're spreading FUD, and unfortunately the international media plays
> along. The very foundation of Islam is hatred and violence.


The very foundation? Report to mods.....but take a look at ur own posts dood!

U just got annoyed because hurt ur sentiments and mocked u of ur stupidity! And what all u did in this club throughout?? Called Hindu gods crappy people, muslim foundation as based on hatred and violence?? U hurt religious sentiments of some people. Ur creating communal tensions here!
I just tried to stabilise ur mentality...I knwo it hurt u! But u hurt everyone's religious sentiments....here! I know u only care abt urself.....and dont care about anyone else. Thats why I say to u to learn respects others beliefs toooo!
Its ok to bring ur viewpoints here.....but dont hurt others religious sentiments by calling em crappy ppl or whateva u said!
I also dont favour ganesh immersions.....or beliefs like that. But I have learnt to respect others beliefs.....and thats why from the very start.....I just said that only religious ppl shud do ganesh immersions and that too with statues made of eco-friendly material! I'm completely against Killings of animals in name of religion.
But something like Diwali, ID, Ganesh immersions that can make ppl happy shudnt be made fun off...but shud be tried to celebrate in less damaging way! Ganesh immersions make ppl unite and make em happy.....thats why I support it!
I can understand u dont believe in gods.....but Dont u bring sweets to ur parents on auspicious religious days...to make them happy?? Whats wrong in making others happy for such beliefs ?? Is it hard to give up ur own view points and surrender ur atitude to make others happy?? 



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Stop talking about my parents.


U got soooo angry. I can understand. But I was just trying to give an analogy! I know u love ur parents....sorry if I hurt ur feelings!
Just like u love ur parents.....many people dont wanna give up there beliefs!



			
				yamaraj said:
			
		

> Watch your tongue as you speak! Stop calling me a psycho repeatedly. I'm
> reporting your post to the moderators. You shove your religion and spirituality
> up your rear, and be happy. I'm out of this nonproductive discussion with a
> derailed and unstable person.


I knew u wud wud somepoint sooner or later. I cud have too....from the very start when u started making fun of religious sentiments of people here calling them s*** and  craps and all! I cud have told u to mind ur language. But I just wanned to show you a point!!

DID U UNDERSTAND NOW??
Please dont hurt others religious sentiments here! Thats all I ask!


Neways to give u mah viewpoints at the end.....as it seems ur already quitting.......Lemme tell.....Religion is no different then spirituality!
If some person ask u what is ur caste? then
1. If the person is child.....he's probably asking u ur surname!
2. If the person is an aged man....he's probably asking u ur roots...whether ur a brahmin,  kshatryiya etc!
3. If the person is a youth ...then he may be asking u whether ur general type or OBC!!

So u see it I really doesnt matter to me...if same is applied to religion! Many people see religion as organization.

But if u ask me....I say religion is just another name for spirituality. I'm from arya samaj. We too dont believe in gods! But we see all the people in name of whom religion has been started as wise people....who attained some sort of extreme spirituality!! We dont follow anyone. But to help gain our own spirituality we look at the teachings of these wise men! For us Swami Vivek Anand is no less than Lord Krishna!
I dunno if GITA was really spoken by some powerfull,divine GOD. But whatever he(LORd KRISHNA) spoke, has a sense of extreme wisdom!!

Now as for rules....I'm still clueless what rules are there in Hinduism??

So try to maintain ur ethics in forums and everywhere u go! Stop hurting others religious sentiments! If it gives them happiness then just forget what u think for a while!
But in extreme conditions like people drinking sea water like today.....try to explain them the hazards of it!
An auspicious religious day shud be enjoyed fully even if u dont have faith in it...atleast it gives a holiday! But it shud be taken care off or looked into if it destroys the life of others....be it animal or human or environment!! 


Sorry for calling u a BIHARI, and dragging and comparing ur parents like that.......forgive me! BUT ATLAST U SHUD APOLOGISE TOO TO ALL THE PEOPLE U HURT RELIGIOUS SENTIMENTS OF!

If u still wanna debate...then be my guest...I'm always ready for debates!! But dont as i said hurt others sentiments.......... !!!

MODS maye close the thread now......as it has quite entertained me.....but got off the topic and turned into a sentimental war !! Do u agree @yamaraj,@led_shankar, @Virus bro?? Or shud we continue a little still??

EPEACE!!


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## led_shankar (Aug 21, 2006)

I agree yamaraj was unfair to not respect other people's beliefs (I think I've mentioned this before)...

@mediator: Hinduism, interestingly enough, is a bit of an anomaly in religions. Of late, though, it has been becoming more and more mainstreamised etc. but the Hindu concept of religion is different from the Abrahamic (Christian, Jewish, Muslim) religions. Even then, the word (religion, specifically, Hinduism) has different connotations when used in personal and social contexts.

@yamaraj: See, the issues concerning religion that become adverse are *not* systematic; they are systemic....If you ban religion, other forms of "idol worship" replace it. Like the way people worshipped dictators in the Soviet. Also, remember a man named Periyar? He used to smash idols of Gods and burn their portraits to oppose idol worship. But now, people in the South worship his idols!


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## Yamaraj (Aug 21, 2006)

@led_shankar
In my opinion, it is only fair to shatter people's belief as it is to spread blind
and bad faith. I'm all against idol worshipping of any kind. But Hindus go even
further! They worship living people. This is something I have no respect for.

I agree with you that some problems are indeed systemic. But there are ways
to eradicate them still. Yes, I've heard of Periyar Ramaswami and consider him
a real hero for his persona. It's bad that people don't want to understand or
learn anything. They choose to follow blindly, and I condemn them for that.

See how Buddha called for 'Appa deepo bhava'. But the blind followers made a
religion out of him. I have deep respect for him for his chosen path of wisdom
and search for the truth. It's not the heros like Rama, Krishna or Buddha that
I'm against, it's the foolish masses.


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## ctrl_alt_del (Aug 21, 2006)

Reason for the thread being locked? The thread had started to tread dangerous ground with accusations and counter-accusations, some down right degrading. Both the parties are to be blamed. So much so that I am tempted to delete whole posts all together. However, that would be a shame as much of the discussion had valid points intermingled with things that should not have been said. Thats the only reason why the offending posts havn't been completely deleted yet. The thread has been locked just to avoid any more of what we have already witnessed.

If the members wish to revive the thread, they will have to THEMSELVES edit their offending posts. Only after the personal attacks have been edited out, will this thread will be unlocked by anyone from the Mod Team. Please remember, racial attacks are taken very seriously here and members indulging in them can be ejected from the forum without much fanfare. So I would request everyone here to take a look at their posts and see if what they have said could have been avoided. If yes, then please edit it. The thread will be under review for some time and inaction on your part will result in some harsh measures being adopted by us here.

Now its upto you.


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