# The Great Indian Govt. Debate



## thewisecrab (Jun 9, 2010)

I've been prompted about this a lot on #krow at freenode. Each time, I get a strange response. Well, since I got tired of typing out the same crap over and over again, I decided to make this thread. 

Whats it about? Its a response to everyone who says "well, you say you want get out of the country. you are a hypocrite. why cant you fix it? See! Everyone's the same. You are not a patriot" (ok, I cleaned up the words)

The following is an example I've been giving since 3yrs ago. Why is the government failing? Well, it's pretty easy to know why. 

In 1951, (if my memory serves correctly) there were 18 ministries in the Council Of Ministers. If your history textbooks are correct, maximum development took place during this time, and atleast it laid a decent enough foundation for further development to follow. 

As the freedom fighters among the Congress began to retire, genuine interest in taking development forward stopped. Ministers clamoured for a portfolio as such a job offers perks (I think you know, free bills, free travel, huge house, etc.) When the ruling party found it unfeasible, the ministers threatened withdrawal (coalition politics, no?) and thus, the ruling party had to budge, decentralizing the a few of 18 ministries, and making these ministers heads of a few. After all, decentralization ensures stability right? 

Cut to today. There are 60+ ministries. Yes, 60+. I got bored after reaching 60, so yeah, 60+. And how are they? Let me "centralize" them for you:

1)Energy and Resources
Ministry of New and Renewable Energy
Ministry of Petroleum and Natural Gas
Ministry of Power
Ministry of Coal
Ministry of Steel
Ministry of Mines
Ministry of Earth Sciences
Ministry of Chemicals and Fertilizers

2)Mind you, this is just "affairs" Goodness knows why they cant be clubbed into one. (WTF is "Overseas Indian"? Isnt "External" enough?)

Ministry of Home Affairs
Ministry of External Affairs
Ministry of Overseas Indian Affairs
Ministry of Youth Affairs 
Ministry of Parliamentary Affairs
Ministry of Tribal Affairs
Ministry of Corporate Affairs
Ministry of Minority Affairs

3)Transport (I found this funny)
Ministry of Shipping
Ministry of Railways
Ministry of Civil Aviation
Ministry of Road Transport and Highways
(wont one "Ministry of Transportation" solve the whole damn thing? and wtf is "civil" aviation? There's uncivilized folk too?)

So, in all this "decentralization", work is meant to be divided and done faster right? Well, by that logic, we should be living in Utopia right now. Add to it the fact that there are 100's of civil servants under these MPs, who will do the work for them (though they too delegate it to their juniors), making sure that no matter what happens, no work is done. 

And please, dont mention "but we are growing at 8%". Having seen tons of interviews and debates, basic conclusion is that India should have reached double-digit growth a long time ago. 8% growth is pittance (but given our state, we should be glad atleast it's "growth")

I hope I'm getting through. I'm open to accepting views (this is fight club  )

There are waaaay too many more "fun facts", but going by the time of post, I'll need sleep. Good night, and lets hope this thread wont die


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## XTerminator (Jun 9, 2010)

theres an interesting topic to debate on,rather than debating whether one's height is important 



> WTF is "Overseas Indian"? Isnt "External" enough?



Not sure,but i think overseas indian affairs maybe pertains to the events pertainin to the Indians living elsewhere (includes NRIs,people migrated to other countries,for work,study,etc. while External Affairs pertains to the relations India has with other nations in the sub-continent and all over the world.

as regards the increase in no.of departments from 18 to 60+,maybe increasing population makes allocating the funds and resources or managing them difficult,so having more ministries can help in this regard.Of course thats lol,people get nothing in need or emergency.



> As the freedom fighters among the Congress began to retire, genuine interest in taking development forward stopped. Ministers clamoured for a portfolio as such a job offers perks (I think you know, free bills, free travel, huge house, etc.)



sigh,thats the darker side of politics people seem to have indulged in these days...


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## gagan007 (Jun 9, 2010)

you are talking like a 5 year old now...
The point you have made in your post above is about the number of ministries...let me give you a simple example. In a school of say 100 pupils do you think it would be enough if there was only a principal in charge.. I am sure you will say "no".
Move ahead, lets take 5 more sub-ordinates to help principal, do you think 6 people will be able to handle all those 100 students. Umm the answer could be yes here. Now think about a billion population here and do your math. In any country administration is very important task otherwise it won't be long when we will also have tyranny or military government (look at our neighbors) or worse some militia led by a corrupt ruling us like they have in some african nations.

Your argument about civil (uncivilized) aviation is too lame to comment. 

Blaming everything on the politicians will be wrong. It is us who elect them. There are honest people also. Vote for them (I am sure no one can raise doubts about honesty of our MM Singh, P Chidambaram and few other ministers).

But our country is not run by these people alone. What's your contribution in that? Do your work honestly and you can also contribute a major part in the development of this country which has a lot more talent than rest of the world clubbed together.

The problem with people like you is you don't feel pride in calling yourself Indian and everything related to it. You do not know how much westerners admire us for our culture, how much they hate us fearing that we will take up their job, how much they look upon our best talents who help them in research....People like you forget that we got our autonomy just 60 years back and the development we have achieved in this time is satisfactory IMO. Do not forget the constant nagging issues like terrorism and rogue neighbors. Then their is population, illiteracy and poverty.

When we talk about population some people give example of China and its development. Boss...do not just spit words. Go and have a look at the condition of people who live there. You know China produces a lot of duplicate items than any other country...do you know the reason...it is their government and their policies...there is no innovation anywhere in China. They just know how to make a copy. People are not allowed to think, they are just told what to do. Research is done only under strict government vigil...and what about rights...haah you may kiss goodbye to them in China...here in India you can atleast go on strike to make your voice heard. You already know about why google left china...One last reference regarding people's rights in China...just read about Tiananmen Square on the internet...the govt used battle tanks to crush people..rest is history...

It is time to thank your God that you were born on this soil.


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## thewisecrab (Jun 9, 2010)

XTerminator_09 said:


> Not sure,but i think overseas indian affairs maybe pertains to the events pertainin to the Indians living elsewhere (includes NRIs,people migrated to other countries,for work,study,etc. while External Affairs pertains to the relations India has with other nations in the sub-continent and all over the world.


We have seen before that too many foreign policies lead to mismanagement. Ministry of External affairs handles the whole thing now (When was the last time you heard of "Overseas Indian Affairs" making a significant step? Heck, even I've never heard of the minister's name  )



> as regards the increase in no.of departments from 18 to 60+,maybe increasing population makes allocating the funds and resources or managing them difficult,so having more ministries can help in this regard.Of course thats lol,people get nothing in need or emergency.


But, again, why is "steel" and "mining and refining ministry" separate? You do know that we extract more Iron, Aluminium than the steel produced. Allocating funds seems viable on the face, but in reality, all these guys do is create shite ministries (theres one for Statistics and Programme Implementation, why do we need him? WTF is the Planning Commision for?) and make merry under the pretext of doing work



gagan007 said:


> you are talking like a 5 year old now...
> The point you have made in your post above is about the number of ministries...let me give you a simple example. In a school of say 100 pupils do you think it would be enough if there was only a principal in charge.. I am sure you will say "no".
> Move ahead, lets take 5 more sub-ordinates to help principal, do you think 6 people will be able to handle all those 100 students. Umm the answer could be yes here. Now think about a billion population here and do your math. In any country administration is very important task otherwise it won't be long when we will also have tyranny or military government (look at our neighbors) or worse some militia led by a corrupt ruling us like they have in some african nations.


As I said, it looks viable "on the face" but other than the main portfolios (HRD, Home, Finance) have you heard of ANY significant development in any other field? If everything was centralized among these guys, who ARE doing a good job, why not?

A recent example is the "Telecom" minister A Raja. That prick almost managed to sanction a trip to Estonia, Europe inorder to make a "feasability" study on the UID project (which, even though Nandan Nilekani is heading it, he's in the middle of shite of ministers). A populace of ~15lakh, getting oodles of funds from European Union. OF COURSE THE UID PROJECT SUCCEEDED! That ******* was hoping to get a vacation out of it (reports suggest he was going to do 2hrs of official work, for 1 week trip)

Now, if we centralize, not only would such sorry pricks be gone, but when such portfolios are placed under 1 ministry (under a reliable man) wonders can be done. Most Indians thrive under pressure, and with so many people to report to (when centralized), the minister will be under constant pressure, and (optimistically) will perform.



> Your argument about civil (uncivilized) aviation is too lame to comment.



Was sleepy at time of posting, thought it would be a joke  That prick, Praful Patel, when was the last time you saw him do work? Oh wait . .he was using OUR taxes to fly to Singapore and watch the Manikchand Film awards. He did "fly", and fly-aviation go together, right? So he did work 

The AI bailout was organized by the finance ministry btw, not him. 

You know why he cant be sacked? Coz Sharad Pawar, on doing so, will withdraw his seats, rendering the Union unstable. Same goes for A Raja. The Govt (in every term) puts up with shite only coz they have no option. 

If even one Govt has the balls to centralize, it will cause uproar among civil servants, and opposition alike, thus causing it to be shelved. It will be a populous move though, even if its risky (short term wise)


> Blaming everything on the politicians will be wrong. It is us who elect them. There are honest people also. Vote for them (I am sure no one can raise doubts about honesty of our MM Singh, P Chidambaram and few other ministers).
> 
> But our country is not run by these people alone. What's your contribution in that? Do your work honestly and you can also contribute a major part in the development of this country which has a lot more talent than rest of the world clubbed together.


This is exactly the argument I was put up against, and frankly, its laughable. Wake up and smell whats brewing dude. 

It is OUR effort that has brought us 8% growth, along with the few (HRD, Finance, Home) ministries too. It could've been much more if these usurping blood sucking prick do not exist. 

With so many people "in-it-to-win-it" and not for growth, try cramming the numbers and see whats happening.



> The problem with people like you is you don't feel pride in calling yourself Indian and everything related to it. You do not know how much westerners admire us for our culture, how much they hate us fearing that we will take up their job, how much they look upon our best talents who help them in research....People like you forget that we got our autonomy just 60 years back and the development we have achieved in this time is satisfactory IMO. Do not forget the constant nagging issues like terrorism and rogue neighbors. Then their is population, illiteracy and poverty.


Hmm, you want me to be proud of the fact that, after 60 years of Independance, the only thing we have to show for it is what we are seeing now? You mean to say we should be "happy" for the crumbling infrastructure, the lethargy is getting things done, the appalling state of civil amenities, the failure of the PDS, and dying villages? (BTW, PDS is headed by *surprise* Sharad Pawar)

You fail to see my point. Am I talking about culture? Am I talking about us in other countries and doing better than them? No. 

I know us Indians are one of the best in the world. Yet, politics is hindering it a great deal. 

The point of "we got a govt only 60 years back" is strange. This is the Modern Era. An era of instant gratification, and the best one wins. Quite frankly, we had the chance of taking full advantage of the technological boom,  and we didnt. Merely saying "but we have culture, tradition, great minds" wont bring in development. 



> When we talk about population some people give example of China and its development. Boss...do not just spit words. Go and have a look at the condition of people who live there.



When did I mention China? We need our own model for growth. China is a Communist nation. 



> You know China produces a lot of duplicate items than any other country...do you know the reason...it is their government and their policies...there is no innovation anywhere in China. They just know how to make a copy. People are not allowed to think, they are just told what to do. Research is done only under strict government vigil...


 You *do* know that duplicates are produced else where too right? Its not being done coz the have no "brains"  Its being done as its been found to be the most profitable means of business. Their aim is to make their products so cheap (in price as well) that Indian manufacturers would find in non-viable to sell goods at a price below the Chinese, giving the Chinese a monopoly. Luckily, when the recession hit, this business (like whole sale manufacturing in India) died down a bit, but its still present. 



> and what about rights...haah you may kiss goodbye to them in China...here in India you can atleast go on strike to make your voice heard. You already know about why google left china...One last reference regarding people's rights in China...just read about Tiananmen Square on the internet...the govt used battle tanks to crush people..rest is history...


I know about Tianenmen Square  

You know the in Bengal, everytime the govt even "tries" to make things easier, by say, implementing proposals, those w1nks go on strike? They go on strike atleast twice a week. Its become so easy to predict that people in Kolkatta plan their weekend trips accordingly. No work gets done, and theres pandemonium (Singur anyone)

You liked the fact the AI went on strike when a horrible tragedy occured just because the AI board decided to curtail salaries and cut down pensions on the retired? (They are on bailout money now, minds you)

Google didnt leave China because of the "lack of unions". They left as China tried to snoop around. And that (in my opinion) is the right decision for Google. Get your facts right 



> It is time to thank your God that you were born on this soil.


I rest my case 

Time and time again, nobody gets the idea of centralizing. They come up with these sordid statements.


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## XTerminator (Jun 9, 2010)

> The problem with people like you is you don't feel pride in calling yourself Indian and everything related to it.



never seen him do that here in this thread.



> You do not know how much westerners admire us for our culture



perhaps you've never chatted with anyone on Omegle and not used to the 'ewwws' you get when you mention the fact that you're an Indian.They still think India is a third world country.

Also,why is the comparison to China brought here,completely out of context? 



> Do not forget the constant nagging issues like terrorism and rogue neighbors. Then their is population, illiteracy and poverty.



As far as im aware,we fought most wars and problems alongside the drastic developments this country made (Green Revolution,industrial and trade developments,etc)


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## gagan007 (Jun 9, 2010)

XTerminator_09 said:


> never seen him do that here in this thread.



i never said he was doing that...i said ppl like him...who always complain...you are overlooking my point that complaining never solves a issue...you need to be a part of solution.otherwise i see no difference in you and the problem..





XTerminator_09 said:


> perhaps you've never chatted with anyone on Omegle and not used to the 'ewwws' you get when you mention the fact that you're an Indian.They still think India is a third world country.



clearly...i do not care about perception of the kind of people who login to some site to talk to complete strangers.are you sure that those who 'ewwed' at you were not from pakistan or nigeria?
whatsoever...i said that because I meet/talk/chat a lot of customers from america and europe...and they really see India in high regard...





XTerminator_09 said:


> Also,why is the comparison to China brought here,completely out of context?



I mentioned when I started my paragraph there...perhaps you didn't read the first line of that para and last line of the preceding para...they are related and China's mention was in context...please read that again...





XTerminator_09 said:


> As far as im aware,we fought most wars and problems alongside the drastic developments this country made (Green Revolution,industrial and trade developments,etc)



so you agree that we did made progress...
See the point i was making there was that we have a lot of other problems to look at.....we are pushing tons of money into strengthening our borders...maintaining a huge army...and even then we have shown the world that we are progressive nation who deserves a seat in UN security council...

but I now think that OP is not aiming towards this (development in India)...he wants to discuss about the politics in India...which is no doubt reaching at lower levels by the day...


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## thewisecrab (Jun 9, 2010)

gagan007 said:


> i never said he was doing that...i said ppl like him...who always complain...you are overlooking my point that complaining never solves a issue...you need to be a part of solution.otherwise i see no difference in you and the problem..


Ok, then what is the solution "OH MIGHTY ONE!" ? 

Typical. "Hey be a part of the solution, dont complain" And now, when I've presented a possible solution (of re-centralization), you chose to be blind. Bravo.




> I mentioned when I started my paragraph there...perhaps you didn't read the first line of that para and last line of the preceding para...they are related and China's mention was in context...please read that again...


There is no way you can apply China's context here. Its 2 different styles of govt for Pete's sake! I dont think you've read even one word of my argument 





> so you agree that we did made progress...
> See the point i was making there was that we have a lot of other problems to look at.....we are pushing tons of money into strengthening our borders...maintaining a huge army...and even then we have shown the world that we are progressive nation who deserves a seat in UN security council...


You do know the UN is a farce right? The only difference between the UN and the League of Nations is that the UN is still alive today. Both are failures. 
BTW, since when has "getting a seat in UNSC" became a yard stick for development? 



> but I now think that OP is not aiming towards this (development in India)...he wants to discuss about the politics in India...which is no doubt reaching at lower levels by the day...



You have DEFINITELY not read a WORD of what I said. Since when is trying to reform governance through centralization POLITICS???? 

No wonder "Is Height Important?" gets more hits than this. I weep for humanity.


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## Rahim (Jun 9, 2010)

welcome back karnivore and mediator


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## ico (Jun 9, 2010)




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## thewisecrab (Jun 9, 2010)

Awww, thanks guys


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## confused (Jun 9, 2010)

a_rahim said:


> welcome back karnivore and mediator


just went back to read the science vs god thread....the people there have simply resorted to abusing each other in few parts of the thread..... tears came out of my eyes loling at the comments 

this thread hasnt seen such depravity yet...but thats because most people have realized no matter how much they worry/show anger ppl like raja/soren/koda,etc will eat people's money and walk away....so they choose to ignore the govt's shortcomings and enjoy threads like "is height/length/girth important??"


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## Faun (Jun 9, 2010)

once in a while a jingo awakens inside every indian net addict.after seeing the predicament of mother india. Sad story is that things cannot change unless the current system undergo metamorphosis. Better live your life and do something individually, be an hero if u r the extreme type and believe in revolution. Though in case of revolutions thinga dont hold much and go awry sooner or later.


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## gagan007 (Jun 10, 2010)

thewisecrab said:


> Ok, then what is the solution "OH MIGHTY ONE!" ?



No need to be sarcastic, you have started behaving like a child now 

I am telling you that it is better to fulfill your duties towards your country rather than giving illogical solutions like de-centralizing ministries. You know nothing about government and how to run a country.


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## confused (Jun 10, 2010)

i think i already know what the next post will be!!!


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## thewisecrab (Jun 10, 2010)

Maybe thats why threads like 'is height important' are thriving. 

Coz when an an actual matter can be discussed, they play the "love your country. fulfill your duties. Be an Indian" card. 

I weep for this country. The thread is ready to die soon. Why cant anybody take the debate forward? 

@confused I'm trying my level best not to flame him. It's because of such guys that the country is deluded, and TDF is dying. I miss karnivore and mediator


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## confused (Jun 10, 2010)

^^chill dude... if you want to make a real difference...take up political studies or something as your major....or try to pass IAS.... its a tech forum and you cant really expect every non-tech topic to garner attention.


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## thewisecrab (Jun 10, 2010)

^^
Engineering FTW!  (hopefully, awaiting CET results)

Yeah, I am going to give the UPSC exams once post grads are done, maybe join IFS or IAS 

The thing is, like the "Science vs God" threads, this could've been a good discussion. Instead, these w1nks see things through a deluded mirror


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## XTerminator (Jun 10, 2010)

> Maybe thats why threads like 'is height important' are thriving





is hair/skin color imp? please answer that


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## confused (Jun 10, 2010)

^^obviously.... white people consider(ed) themselves as racially superior......and the rest of the world willingly consider(ed) themselves inferior to them for what close to 2000 years.
only now it _seems_ to be changing...(read obama being elected as the first pseudo black american president)
also do answer this:"would you prefer a fair girl or a dark girl as your wife??" That should clear your doubts... 

---------- Post added at 07:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 PM ----------




thewisecrab said:


> ^^
> Engineering FTW!  (hopefully, awaiting CET results)


all the best


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## manishjha18 (Jun 10, 2010)

yeah --100 me 100 baiman phir bhi mera desh mahan


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## metalfan (Jun 11, 2010)

gagan007 said:


> Move ahead, lets take 5 more sub-ordinates to help principal, do you think 6 people will be able to handle all those 100 students. Umm the answer could be yes here. Now think about a billion population here and do your math. In any country administration is very important task otherwise it won't be long when we will also have tyranny or military government (look at our neighbors) or worse some militia led by a corrupt ruling us like they have in some african nations.
> .


Ok now a school in every respect is diff. from a country.A princi has the job to manage, control and mentor students which can be quite related to a police inspector not a minister, minister never runs behind scolds the aam janta like a princi whereas minister the sub branches and branches and branches can be offered to IAS ppl and all if these branches need any attention those ppl are more then enuff to handle them as they are more literate atleast.


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## thewisecrab (Jun 11, 2010)

^^
No use replying to him. He doesnt get it. And never will.


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## Rahim (Jun 11, 2010)

why dont discuss something like Bhopal tragedy?


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## thewisecrab (Jun 11, 2010)

I posted this a day before the verdict, though we can discuss that here. It IS a govt problem, with every ministry washing their hands off of it (coz of decentralization)


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