# Advanced P&S or Mirrorless?



## aadi007 (Oct 3, 2012)

At one time, I almost bought the Panasonic FZ150...but plans got changed due to some other issues.

Now, Panasonic FZ150 is out of stock.
So, I thought of having a look at various options in the price range (20-25K).

I am thinking to go with an advanced P&S camera or a mirrorless one.
So, please suggest.

For mirrorless, I am thinking of Sony NEX5K or Olympus E-PM1. Sony seems to have the best image quality but the menu system is a letdown. Also, Sony has limited lenses available.
I don't plan to buy a lot of lenses. May be a zoom lens with the Kit lens, nothing more.

For advanced P&S, I am thinking of Canon S95/Fuji X-S1 etc.

Need your expert advice!
Also, let me know which would be a good place to buy from ..
PS - Is there any other bridge camera which is as good as the Panasonic FZ150? How is Fuji HS25?


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## nac (Oct 4, 2012)

FYI, Fuji XS1 is not a compact camera and cost 50k.

If you can't find FZ150, you can check the rival HX200V.

Advanced PnS,
Canon S100
Canon G12
Nikon P7100
Olympus XZ1

All these four cameras are good and in your budget. Do your own research and you can pick one.

You may get kit lens and zoom lens if you opt for Olympus. Sony won't fit the bill...


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## aadi007 (Oct 4, 2012)

*Re: Advanced P&amp;S or Mirrorless?*

Thanks for the reply..
I meant Olympus XZ-1..not Fuji.
The XZ1 is available at <20K.

Not interested in HX200V, HX100V is better as per all reviews but it is not available.

I think Olympus E PM1 with the kit lens and a 40-150 zoom lens at <30K is a good deal..what say?

W.r.t image quality and speed of operation, is there going to be any big difference between an advanced P&S and a mirrorless one?
What about shall DOF and HDR etc?

Nikon P7100 is ruled out as the reviews are not favorable.
Between the rest, what do you suggest? What are the key differences between Canon S95/G12 and Oly XZ-1?


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## nac (Oct 4, 2012)

I don't think S95 is available.

S100 best IQ; slow, no hot shoe, VF, below avg. battery life, weak flash...
G12 very good built and handling; oldest, slow, no zoom while recording video...
XZ1 fastest lens; don't have many controls like rivals, sensor shift, below std. video quality...

Should be S100 vs XZ1. Try them both in a camera shop before deciding...

Ask for a quotation from a local dealer, for Olympus EPM1 with twin lens kit. If it's high, you can get it from ebay for about 27000 using coupons. 

Obviously, mirror-less cameras are faster than compact and have better IQ.
Aperture and sensor influence DOF. So don't expect DSLR/mirrorless kind shallow DOF from a compact.
HDR, panorama are just extra frills


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## sujoyp (Oct 4, 2012)

Mirrorless camers are a very good choice and I would also had selected between EPM1 and Nex 5k for their price and quality...I would suggest you get the 

I would select EPM1 between these two..but its sad that it have very less buttons and u have to go in menus for simple work like changing aperture...and flash in not inbuilt...its given in the package...u have to connect it when u wanted to use..

For advance P&S I would select olympus XZ1


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## nac (Oct 4, 2012)

^^ 
P7100 does have many controls. You almost no need to go into the menus and browse for the settings...


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## sujoyp (Oct 4, 2012)

nac P7100 is an awesome looking camera with lots of buttons...and those dials and buttons are really useful...reviews are also very nice...
*img.photographyblog.com/reviews/nikon_coolpix_p7100/nikon_coolpix_p7100_14.jpg

XZ1 also have two dials...one on top and one around lens

*img.photographyblog.com/reviews/olympus_xz1/olympus_xz1_06.jpg

but I would prefer Olympus EPM1 ....as you can add lenses,accesories,go advance with various lens adapters and use old lenses...you will get faster start time,faster autofocus, and image quality is obviously better then any p&s

*img.photographyblog.com/reviews/olympus_epm1/olympus_epm1_23.jpg


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## aadi007 (Oct 4, 2012)

It is between XZ1 and PM1.
If my budget permits, I will definitely go for the PM1.
PM1 with 14-42 kit + 40-150 zoom is around 28500/- at homeshop18.
Any better deals?


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## nac (Oct 4, 2012)

Yeah, ebay has the same deal. But if you can use any coupons, you may get a better deal from either or both of them...


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## aadi007 (Oct 4, 2012)

P7100 seems interesting but the image quality is worse than XZ-1..
None of the reviews speak very highly of it compared to G12 or XZ-1???


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## sujoyp (Oct 4, 2012)

yes quality of P7100 is good for a P&S but not better than XZ1 ....



> PM1 with 14-42 kit + 40-150 zoom is around 28500/-


its a superb deal...i didnt know prices are soo low


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## nac (Oct 4, 2012)

*Re: Advanced P&amp;amp;S or Mirrorless?*



sujoyp said:


> nac P7100 is an awesome looking camera with lots of buttons...and those dials and buttons are really useful...reviews are also very nice...
> XZ1 also have two dials...one on top and one around lens



I commented about P7100 in reply to aadi's. In fact, with nikon we will have more controls then Oly...


> Nikon P7100 is ruled out as the reviews are not favorable.





sujoyp said:


> but I would prefer Olympus EPM1... as you can add lenses,accesories,go advance with various lens adapters and use old lenses...you will get faster start time,faster autofocus, and image quality is obviously better then any p&s





He is very much OK with size of mirror-less and his pocket is deep enough to buy EPM1. So why he should even consider compact.



aadi007 said:


> It is between XZ1 and PM1.
> If my budget permits, I will definitely go for the PM1.
> PM1 with 14-42 kit + 40-150 zoom is around 28500/- at homeshop18.
> Any better deals?



Sure your budget does permit... Don't opt for compact just because of extra few grand... From ebay you can get it for 28300. But if you don't have that extra money, better go with just 14-42 kit lens, you can buy that zoom lens later when you have money.

Don't worry you will lose focal range of XZ1 with this kit lens. You won't lose much...
in 35mm equivalent you just miss 28mm i.e., just 1x

You can very well go ahead and buy EPM1. If you hear that this cam will be in market for another one month, save money. You can get the twin lens combo around Diwali with the better deal (hopefully).



aadi007 said:


> P7100 seems interesting but the image quality is worse than XZ-1..
> None of the reviews speak very highly of it compared to G12 or XZ-1???



Just my opinion, not suggesting you to buy...

Overall rating may be slightly less than XZ1 but P7100's IQ is better than XZ1.


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## aadi007 (Oct 4, 2012)

*Re: Advanced P&amp;amp;S or Mirrorless?*



> Overall rating may be slightly less than XZ1 but P7100's IQ is better than XZ1.



Why do u say so? Personal experience or based on reviews?
Please enlighten.

P7100 is lucrative as it offers a much bigger zoom lens but the overall image quality din't seem good enough compared to XZ-1.
Why do you rate XZ-1 higher overall?

Guyz,
My pockets are not as deep as you guys think 
I can buy the PM! without the zoom lens but the zoom lens alone costs some 15+K whereas with the bundle offer, the difference is just 5K odd


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## nac (Oct 4, 2012)

*Re: Advanced P&amp;amp;S or Mirrorless?*



aadi007 said:


> Why do u say so? Personal experience or based on reviews?
> Please enlighten.


Based on reviews...



aadi007 said:


> P7100 is lucrative as it offers a much bigger zoom lens but the overall image quality din't seem good enough compared to XZ-1.
> Why do you rate XZ-1 higher overall?


I don't rate it... It's just the average of expert ratings.


aadi007 said:


> Guyz,
> My pockets are not as deep as you guys think


I mean, you have the budget to buy EPM1


aadi007 said:


> I can buy the PM! without the zoom lens but the zoom lens alone costs some 15+K whereas with the bundle offer, the difference is just 5K odd


Yeah, that's the reason I asked to save the extra 3k+ to take the bundle offer.


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## sujoyp (Oct 4, 2012)

@aadi just close ur eyes and get the EPM1 combo lens deal...its just too good 

the good thing is you wont have to buy anything else right now...

@nac I compared image taken with p7100 and XZ1 ...XZ1 is better...also have better ISO...
add to the mix EPM1 and it wins hands down


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## marvelousprashant (Oct 4, 2012)

*Re: Advanced P&amp;S or Mirrorless?*

Since this is about advanced PnS I think you should take the Panasonic LX5 into consideration. After all you are buying an advanced PnS/Mirrorless instead of a superzoom or bridge because you need better IQ
IMO P7100 is better than XZ1 at high ISO IQ. But XZ1 has got a better image stabilization system which means it can shoot at lower ISO without causing blur

If you combine the advantages of both you get LX5... it has an awesome Image stabilization system + awesome IQ.

But then mirrorless aint a bad choice. Nex5 with a 27 - 82.5 mm lens for less than 24k is great. You get more zoom in PnS but APS-C in Nex means you can always crop. 

As sujoy said go for EPM1 combo lens. It is awesome


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## aadi007 (Oct 5, 2012)

Guyz,
How is the Pana GF3 compared to the Oly PM1?
Both are in the same price range.


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## Soumik (Oct 17, 2012)

Damn! I bought the EPM1 dual lens kit for 34K just a few months ago!!! :'(
Both GF3 and EPM1 have very high IQ. But i would suggest EPM1. GF3 doesnt have inbody IS. It depends on Pana made OIS Lenses. Also, the kit flash for EPM1 is much more powerful then the built in flash in GF3.
You get a hell lot of advanced features with the ICL cameras. There are pancake lenses which make them as big as a medium p&s cameras. There are telescopic lenses if ur interested in zoom . 
As much as its difficult to use the buttons for all settings, once u get used to it, its very easy to access and change. Rarely do i miss any shot due to time lag in changing any settings. 
Only qualms u can have is the lack on an EVF and carrying the different lens(will increase with time if ur interested in photography) for different situations.


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## aadi007 (Oct 18, 2012)

Hi Soumik,
Thanks for your reply....Since I am not able to get my hands on the camera. I have a few questions for you - 
Handling/ergonomics - How easy or difficult is it to change the settings etc since there are a very few buttons on the camera?
What about the handgrip? I am particularly worried about this aspect.

How big is the kit lens when the camera is switched off? Does it contract? 

Finally, do you suggest me to choose the E PM1 over the NEX5? 

Thanks
Aadi


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## Soumik (Oct 18, 2012)

Hey aadi007,
Hmm to change settings... you will have to rely on your finger memory after sometime. Initially, its a bit difficult to get used to. Even now, the settings you can change easily are shutter speed and 'f' value. But i guess thats the same even for DSLRs. Instead of the wheel, you have to press 1 button to activate, and then up/down for shutter speed and left/right for 'f' and then centre buton to go back to shooting. I am talking full manual mode here. For any other setting, you need to click the middle button to activate side menu and then up/down to select the setting u wanna change, then left/right to change, then centre button to go back to shooting. Once you get used to it, it doesnt take time to change. You do get a preview of the shot and/or exposure meter while you change any setting. Its cumbersome at first, but i got used to it within a month.

As for hand grip, you can get aftermarket handgrips and use them. Am not using any, cause i want the cam to be as small and light as possible  With any zoom lens, you will be supporting the cam as well and changing zoon while taking shot. The kit zoom lens cant be used without giving it separate support. The normal kit lens is fine.. but looks awkwared with one hand. And the pancake lens, it pure one handed operation with its speed and size  Only the larger zoom lens, and some high grade lenes have good enough weight that u cant take a steady shot with one hand. But really i havent felt the need of a grip anytime.
Btw... kit lens is okaish when off, but elongate when on. (retractable but not as much as the new Pana OIS kit lens). You cant put the cam in any jeans pocket. Formals, with kit lens you can but shows in a bad way. If ur in cargo, you can carry whole set with you .

Nex5 has been replaced by 5N, and now even 5NK(though this doesnt have a lot of extra featues over 5N). For me, EPM1 gives good enough pictures, and there's a massive number of lens to choose from. I would have got the same quality with the Nex5N, but may be professionals would get better pics with the Nex cause of its larger sensor size. I didnt go for the 5N mainly cause of the lack of substantial number of supporting lenses, no IBIS, and large size of kit lens. If i needed a cam of same volume i would have got a DSLR instead. The size and weight adv of a mirrorless cam is lost in Nex series just because of the lens. But Nex5N does ahve the advantage of having better low light sensitivity than EPM1, something Olympus changed with the EPM2, but thats quite costly in India as of now. Its upto you to decide which factors you want in the cam.


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## aadi007 (Oct 19, 2012)

Wow Soumik...thanks for the detailed reply.
Must admit that I am more confused than ever before.

My basic dilemma is this - I like photography and I like playing with the settings. So, I want a camera with manual controls..good enough zoom (at least 10x or more), fast operation and good picture quality. The reason I was thinking of a bridge camera over compact ones is because of - more maunal controls, the form factor, EVF, handling, better battery, better flash etc.

I admit I have the budget to go for a mirrorless + zoom lens but I am not able to convince myself that I can carry additional lenses and change them while travelling with family (including a small kid) and take photographs.

That's why thinking about an advanced P&S...but then again, it feels somewhat stupid buying a P&S for 25K+ when I could hve bough a DSLR or mirrorless.

Really confused right now


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## marvelousprashant (Oct 19, 2012)

EPL 1 with 14-42mm lens should give you enough range for shooting landscapes, portrait, and casual photos, you will only need zoom lens for taking bird shots etc


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## sujoyp (Oct 19, 2012)

yes ...zoom lenses are mostly used in zoo,national park,stage shows,birding etc....for party,casual shot,landscape etc 14-42 is enough.

but if controls are important then forget EPM1 ...look for a hi-tech cam like RX100,FZ200 or the common superzoom ones like fz150,HX200...
is 10x zoom enough for you...I think among P7100,S100 and LX5 one have 10x zoom too


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## aadi007 (Oct 19, 2012)

Sujoy,
Why do u say so? E PM1 should have full manual controls though less physical buttons.

FZ200 is 30K..doesnt make sense to me at all.

Prashant, 
thanks for the reply man!
Did you mean E PM1 or E PL1? Another thing I dont like in these models is lack of EVF.
I guess your clarification about the zoom lens does allay my fear to a large extent....but I guess it makes sense to get the zoom lens at an additional 6K or so..buying it separately later would be costlier I think


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## sujoyp (Oct 19, 2012)

aadi hardware control are very easy to use...and specially mode dial on top...do you think rotating the dial is easier then opening the menu and selecting the right thing...it takes time.people spend lots of money for those hardware buttons 
EPM1 is really good and 2 lens combo for 30k is great deal...

ok FZ200 is out.


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## aadi007 (Oct 19, 2012)

Sujoy,
You are right about the hardware buttons and that's where EPM1 lacks...I would have thought the LCD screen is touch-sensitive but it is not..
Since I am not able to try it myself, I am not able to decide.

The Olympus E P3 has all that I need but it is beyond my budget 

As per the latest deal in ebay, the E PM1 with zoom lens is available at 26K only...super tempting


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## Soumik (Oct 19, 2012)

Dont go for EP3. Instead check for deals for EPM2 if you have the budget. EPM2 has loads of advantages over EPM1, but lets not go into that as its out of budget.
As for the harware controls, well, am not used to mode dial a lot, but i never felt the need for that. EPM1 has the easiest menu system i have seen on kind of device. It takes 4 button presses to go from auto to full manual. IMO its not different from mode dial clicks between auto and manual. Plus, u get adv of seeing the menu and changing it in the dark. You cant see mode dial at night rite..  Anyways, i havent got anything with a dial, so cant say.
What you will miss, are the EVF and possible hardware dials for shutterspeed and focal length. I used the D90, and though i didnt like it beacause its big and heavy, the above things come in very handy while shooting.


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## sujoyp (Oct 19, 2012)

it seems that we can get used to the menu control on epm1 ....shoumik is a better person to review


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## aadi007 (Oct 20, 2012)

Ok..I am going to go for EPM1..discussion closed . finally 

Soumik 
Why u advised me against E P3..its got a nice handgrip and lots of physical controls as well.

Will keep u all posted once I get the cam and click some photos.


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## nac (Oct 20, 2012)

^ Just check before placing the order... That 26k deal was with zoom lens alone or its a twin lens kit coz I don't any such deals.


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## Soumik (Oct 20, 2012)

Yeah even i couldnt find that deal. But if your sure ur getting the dual kit lens for so less, go for it without thoughts. 
Yeah, the menu system is very simple compared to even my small nikon coolpic p&s, or even the dslr menu systems. But offcourse dslrs have hardware controls to compensate for it. U just need to go through the instructions once to know the shortcuts and tips to use it. They have given few software tweaks to make the navigation fast. 
I wouldnt suggest the EP3 only cause what u get extra is the hardware controls and grip. ALso the touchscreen. It is slightly bigger and has a retro look. But houses the same IS and sensor inside. Just adding a few more thousands, you get the EPM2, which houses a far superior sensor inside.(same as their flagship m4u cam OMD-M5) Atleast in US, EP3 and EPM2 is of same price. So its better to go for EPM2 over EP3. If you have enough dough for EP3, chk for deals on EPM2 also. For me its a better buy. Offcourse, the hardware dials and mode dials will be missing again.


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## aadi007 (Oct 20, 2012)

*Re: Advanced P&amp;S or Mirrorless?*

Here is the ebay link - 
Olympus E-PM1 Camera with 14-42mm & 40-150mm Lens With MFG Warranty | eBay

With a coupon, it can come down to 26K. 

Today had a torrid time trying to shoot pics during dandiya with all the flash lights and people dancing with my Canon A720IS..tried to play with F value, increase ISO, shutter speed ..nothing helped 
A neighbour with a NIkon D90 DSLR managed to shoot some decent pics though not great... is situations like this, you realize the need for a bigger sensor badly.

One quick question to Soumik - Does the E PM1 have HDR ?


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## nac (Oct 21, 2012)

*Re: Advanced P&amp;S or Mirrorless?*



aadi007 said:


> Here is the ebay link -
> Olympus E-PM1 Camera with 14-42mm & 40-150mm Lens With MFG Warranty | eBay
> 
> With a coupon, it can come down to 26K.



Boss, it's on DEALS. You can't use coupons for this offer...

Don't worry about in-camera HDR, you can do it in computer...


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## aadi007 (Oct 21, 2012)

*Re: Advanced P&amp;S or Mirrorless?*



nac said:


> Boss, it's on DEALS. You can't use coupons for this offer...
> 
> Don't worry about in-camera HDR, you can do it in computer...



Ok, I din't see it on deals..may be they have moved it.
Anyways, 27K or 26K - what difference does it make?

I know there are lot of things possible on the PC but it would be nice to have some of these facilities in the camera as it will help you to see the pictures immediately. Which software do you recommend for post-processing? I mean free


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## nac (Oct 21, 2012)

If the difference doesn't matter to you, fine and good. I was just saying...

I am not good at post processing... I myself new to photography and this PP is newer than that... Free softwares like photomatix for hdr, gimp for processing, combinezp for stacking, ms picture manager for quick editing.


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## sujoyp (Oct 21, 2012)

aadi the situation u said needs fast glass like 17-50 f2.8 so that u get high shutter speed or a full frame cam soo that u can shoot even at ISO6400


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## Soumik (Oct 23, 2012)

^^ Thanks for the tips. My friends are planning to go for a garba night, and if i go, i'll be sure to take my 20mm with me. 
@aadi - Nope... AFAIK no HDR mode in EPM1. You have to do manually by taking diff exposure pics and merging them on PC. That will be the best HDR u can get from this cam. Offcourse free softwares can give the HDR feel even on any single pic.


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