# Will Wii u meet the same fate of Sega Dreamcast



## vickybat (Apr 20, 2013)

This thread isn't meant for any flaming or debatable discussions. Its more like a public opinion and what people think about the aforementioned console's fate.

This came to my mind after i stumbled across the following article:

*Should Nintendo Quit Consoles?*

How many people have the same views as that of the guy who wrote the above article? I'm starting a public poll, so people can cast their vote to reflect their opinion.

For starters, here's a quick info about sega dreamcast with its entire history, along with the company responsible for its downfall.

*Sega Dreamcast*

Is wii u heading in the same direction or it really holds a chance against sony and microsoft's upcoming behemoths?


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## CommanderShawnzer (Apr 20, 2013)

vickybat said:


> *Is wii u heading in the same direction or it really holds a chance against sony and microsoft's upcoming behemoths?*



Meh.Wii U will co-exist with $ony/M$ next-gen consoles.just like Wii co-exists with the ps3 and xbox
I bet the average PS4 owner in late 2014 will already have a Wii U in his cabinet.


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## anirbandd (Apr 20, 2013)

i dont know why a  gamer would even buy a Wii. all the AA-AAA games that have been published in the past few years have been release in either of 3 platforms, PC/XBox/PS.

so why buy Wii? all the games that i know for Wii are overtly childish and immature, with the exception of a few. 

So yes.. it will die a slow death.


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## CommanderShawnzer (Apr 20, 2013)

Incidentally,the OP,and the people who have voted here own PS3's 

Nice Artice


> The argument: Nintendo should stop making consoles. Their games are great and their franchises hugely popular. They could make a fortune selling Zelda games on the PS3 and 360.
> 
> Why it’s dumb: Seriously? The company that created the hugely successful DS and the hugely successful Wii needs to get out of the console business? Why would Nintendo stop doing something it’s very successful at?


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## vickybat (Apr 20, 2013)

^^ Cast your votes guys. Let the votes speak for themselves.


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## CommanderShawnzer (Apr 20, 2013)

vickybat said:


> ^^ Cast your votes guys. Let the votes speak for themselves.



I would like it if you would add a third option in you poll




Spoiler



I don't give a **** about the Wii U


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## snap (Apr 20, 2013)

i wish not because it offer different type of gameplay, its like a complimentary console as commander said.


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## vickybat (Apr 20, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> I would like it if you would add a third option in you poll
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hahahaha 

Oh i missed that option. Lets see if i can request a mod to add that. 
Anyway mate, cast a vote if possible.

On a side note, the article is indeed a good one. But it just has to be seen if all of them are applicable in current scenario.

The following is from wii u's wiki page:



Spoiler



In January 2013, the Wii U sold 57,000 units in the US.[125] By comparison, the original Wii sold 435,000 in January 2007, also 2 months after launch.[126] Initial sales numbers in the US and other territories were lower than expected, resulting in Nintendo cutting sales projections for FY 2013 by 17 percent, from 5.5 million to 4 million.[127] This has left some critics questioning the future of Nintendo, describing the Wii U as putting Nintendo in "trouble" and suggesting that Nintendo possibly should move out of the hardware sector.



*Source*


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## Extreme Gamer (Apr 20, 2013)

vickybat said:


> Hahahaha
> 
> Oh i missed that option. Lets see if i can request a mod to add that.
> Anyway mate, cast a vote if possible.
> ...



Accurate figures, but do note that the Wii's launch had a LOT of strong titles. Wii U's launch is similar, but worse than the PS3 launch. There are not many core titles (i.e. titles you buy a console for) available as of now, so it will take them 2014 to ramp up the sales rate. I think the Wii U will have _stronger_ sales, but a year or so later. Do note the comparative degree in the adjective, so I'm not saying that the sales will be awesome.

So will Wii U meet Sega Dreamcast fate? No. Besides, the consoles launched before the Wii U are huge bestsellers, no denying that, while the Dreamcast had a string of failures before it 

No need to debate what I said. All I'm doing is letting my reasons be known.


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## heidi2521 (Apr 20, 2013)

To add to what Extreme Gamer said, the Dreamcast was not supported by a massively successful handheld, didn't have the backing of a company with $10bn in the bank and its main franchises were nowhere as powerful as Nintendos. 

If Sega hadn't gone bankrupt, the Dreamcast would have been one of the best consoles ever with awesome first party titles like Sonic Adventure, Shenmue, Panzer Dragoon and Crazy Taxi(so far it looks like the Wii U is emulating the Dreamcast in this aspect at least).

BTW, one more reason it wouldn't make sense for Nintendo to leave the hardware business would be that it makes tons of money through licensing and accessories. They would lose that and would have to pay royalties to the platform holder if they left the business which would hurt their margins. Their developers would lose the freedom they get because M$ony would gain a lot of leverage over Nintendo causing them to leave en masse, not unlike Sega. 

And never count on Nintendo to not turn things around. They managed to let a console that massive beast out of the gate get beaten up bad(N64), They turned a handheld console which wasn't selling much into a phenomenon that put them in a spot that they still haven't lost(Gameboy), turned a lukewarm console into the best selling console of all time(NDS) and their latest handheld which did abysmally out of the gate is on track to become the best selling console of all time(3DS).

Nintendo's best games simply wouldn't work on other consoles either. The DS ones are obvious, SM64 & OoT wouldn't be the same it they lost their open world feel and were heavily segmented due to long disc read and load times on the PSX, SMG/SS/MP3 etc. would not be the same if they didn't have motion/pointer controls, SSBM wouldn't work well without the c-stick placement with quick d-pad accessibility etc . 

And unlike Sega, they have a massive anime and manga franchise under their belt to support them incase their consoles fail(Pokemon).  



Spoiler



Not trying to flame but, remember that little console known as the 3DS which was going to be crushed by the PS Vita when it came out(after all it had more powerful hardware, no expensive gimmick(other than the rear touchpad) and had good western 3rd party support unlike the 3DS)?



The Wii U also has a high attach rate with little more than two games per console already. NSMBU has already sold more than 2mn meaning that ~60% Wii U owners own the game, making it the highest attach rate ever for a non bundled game. This means that Nintendo is already profitable per unit sold. Unlike the Sega during the Dreamcast days which was downsizing, Nintendo has been on a massive hiring spree lately hinting that either something big or a lot of games are underworks.


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## CommanderShawnzer (Apr 20, 2013)

I will buy the 32GB Wii U when it comes on FK/Game4U



Spoiler



Provided they have Monster Hunter 3 U available too


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## heidi2521 (Apr 20, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> I will buy the 32GB Wii U when it comes on FK/Game4U
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why not get it from Europe then? It will be cheaper(even after including customs and shipping) and you will get the exact same amount of warranty(none). There is a retailer(a quite massive and reliable one) that doesn't charge VAT on international orders and offers handle customs itself. Not naming it in this post to not violate rules on advertising.


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## CommanderShawnzer (Apr 20, 2013)

dead5 said:


> Why not get it from Europe then? It will be cheaper(even after including customs and shipping) and you will get the exact same amount of warranty(none). There is a retailer(a quite massive and reliable one) that doesn't charge VAT on international orders and offers handle customs itself. Not naming it in this post to not violate rules on advertising.


Name pls. it does not violate any rules.


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## heidi2521 (Apr 20, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> Name pls. it does not violate any rules.




Amazon EU SARL. Compare the prices across various amazons before buying due to different prices, vat levels and shipping rates. Amazon will handle all customs for you in the AmazonGlobal shipping options. They refund any extra they take as a deposit and swallow the extras themselves if overcharged 

If you want to buy a single game i'd recommend ozgameshop because they offer free shipping to india . Amazons vat non charge makes up for it though when ordering multiple games.

I've never been charged customs for the games myself although i was charged customs for the consoles.


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## vickybat (Apr 20, 2013)

^^ How much did you shell out for the wii u in total? I mean in INR.
I would ballpark around 20 grand including shipping and customs. Or is it more?

Do you have the pro controller? Heard the pad controller has very bad battery backup.
I guess its around 3.5-4hrs? Isn't that a hindrance when gaming for long hours?


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## heidi2521 (Apr 21, 2013)

vickybat said:


> ^^ How much did you shell out for the wii u in total? I mean in INR.
> I would ballpark around 20 grand including shipping and customs. Or is it more?
> 
> Do you have the pro controller? Heard the pad controller has very bad battery backup.
> I guess its around 3.5-4hrs? Isn't that a hindrance when gaming for long hours?



I shelled out 23k - 25k in total including a single game. The rupee was *much* weaker at that time though. And right now it costs ~20 euro less than what I paid on Amazon.

I don't have a pro controller. The only game that I have where it would be beneficial would be TTT2WIIUE so I thought it wasn't worth buying. 

The game pad lasts me 4-5 hours in full charge. It isn't much of a problem as that is the maximum length of my gaming session. It comes with a convenient charging cradle so it is pretty much always completely charged when I decide to pick it up. And the charging wire is extremely long so it isn't really an inconvenience to plug it in while playing.

@commandershawnzer there is a Monster Hunter bundle available in Europe that comes with a pro controller and the game in cause you are interested.


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## gameranand (Apr 21, 2013)

anirbandd said:


> i dont know why a  gamer would even buy a Wii. all the AA-AAA games that have been published in the past few years have been release in either of 3 platforms, PC/XBox/PS.
> 
> so why buy Wii? all the games that i know for Wii are overtly childish and immature, with the exception of a few.
> 
> So yes.. it will die a slow death.



Nintendo consoles are never meant for hardcore gamers. Its more of a family entertainment thing. The Nintendo's Founder vision was a complete family entertainment using games.


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## heidi2521 (Apr 21, 2013)

gameranand said:


> Nintendo consoles are never meant for hardcore gamers. Its more of a family entertainment thing. The Nintendo's Founder vision was a complete family entertainment using games.



What?

Are you saying Nintendo's founder envisioned family entertainment using games all the way back in 1889 more than 50 years before the first video games appeared?

And as I have pointed out in other threads, Nintendo consoles are meant for hardcore gamers too. They focused heavily on casuals in the early days of the Wii, but that does not mean that they are not meant for hardcore gamers.



anirbandd said:


> i dont know why a  gamer would even buy a Wii. all the AA-AAA games that have been published in the past few years have been release in either of 3 platforms, PC/XBox/PS.
> 
> so why buy Wii? all the games that i know for Wii are overtly childish and immature, with the exception of a few.
> 
> So yes.. it will die a slow death.



They would buy a Wii to play these games:

*www.metacritic.com/browse/games/release-date/available/wii/metascore?view=condensed


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## CommanderShawnzer (Apr 21, 2013)

anirbandd said:


> i dont know why a  gamer would even buy a Wii. all the AA-AAA games that have been published in the past few years have been release in either of 3 platforms, PC/XBox/PS.
> 
> *so why buy Wii? *all the games that i know for Wii are overtly childish and immature, with the exception of a few.
> 
> So yes.. it will die a slow death.



People who like Wii exclusives will buy the Wii
Pirates will buy only a gaming PC
Indian Dudebro collegians will get a PS3


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## anirbandd (Apr 21, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> *People who like Wii exclusives will buy the Wii*
> Pirates will buy only a gaming PC
> Indian Dudebro collegians will get a PS3



Duh!!  

aint that obvious! 



dead5 said:


> They would buy a Wii to play these games:
> 
> *www.metacritic.com/browse/games/release-date/available/wii/metascore?view=condensed



NO, thanks


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## Extreme Gamer (Apr 21, 2013)

anirbandd said:


> NO, thanks



Are you trying to dictate what games people should and shouldn't play mate?


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## vickybat (Apr 22, 2013)

*Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate Developer Explains Why It Left Nintendo*

This may be the reason why nintendo is losing developer base.

Now the following article definitely comes from another extreme nintendo fanboy:- 

*Wii U is better than Xbox 720, PS4 or PC*

Another link for ninty fans:

*Top 10 Wii U games we’re looking forward to at E3 2013*


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## d3p (Apr 22, 2013)

Console will die for sure. But comes with an amazing lifespan.
Ex. PSP phat or 2000 or 3000 or PS2 or even Sega NES 16bit. These console die because of lack of support for game development or developer.


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## vickybat (Apr 22, 2013)

*Nintendo Wii U has Already Won the Next Generation Console War* 

What sort of fanboy writes this stuff?? They are definitely out of their minds.


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## heidi2521 (Apr 22, 2013)

vickybat said:


> *Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate Developer Explains Why It Left Nintendo*
> 
> This may be the reason why nintendo is losing developer base.
> 
> ...



TL;DR for the first one is that they wanted the kind of freedom that working at a subsidiary cannot provide. It has nothing to do with the company being Nintendo nor does it contain Nintendo specific complaints. The reason would be equally valid if "Retro" was replaced by "Naughty Dog" and "Nintendo" by "Sony".

One of the main reasons devs are reluctant to work on Nintendo platforms is explained here:

*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games#Nintendo

Nintendo is simply _too hard_ to compete with on their platforms. Ubisoft is probably the only non Japanese/Niche company that found major success on Nintendo platforms.

If Nintendo releases many first party games at once they won't get third party support, If they don't release many first party games at once they won't get a large user base and so won't get third party support. 

The second title is pure click bait. Most of the article covers the 3DS :shocked: and between the massive library the 3DS has and the titles on the Wii U it isn't too surprising that that person has no time for other consoles which don't really target him.

That list is horrible. Nobody is really anticipating Wii Fit U and the Wii U Zelda game won't be demoed because they just announced a successor to ALttP and they wouldn't want to rob thunder from that. To add to that Eiji Aonuma said that the Wii U LoZ will take quite some time to develop and won't be out for 2 - 3 years atleast. Pokemon Rumble is neither a big nor substantive title so they probably won't spend time on that. All the other titles were already confirmed by Nintendo for a showing at E3. And no mention of Retro's secret project, The Wonderful 101 or Monolith Soft's X 

Expect Nintendo to screw up the E3 and then knock your socks off in the Nintendo Direct, where they actually have the flexibility to show what they want without trying to appease shareholders and keep a disinterested reporters attention.



vickybat said:


> *Nintendo Wii U has Already Won the Next Generation Console War*
> 
> What sort of fanboy writes this stuff?? They are definitely out of their minds.



The kind of fanboy who has no idea how the market works and isn't aware of current gaming demographics 



d3p said:


> Console will die for sure. But comes with an amazing lifespan.
> Ex. PSP phat or 2000 or 3000 or PS2 or even Sega NES 16bit. These console die because of lack of support for game development or developer.



Uhh... the PS2 had massive developer support, the PSP was a failure only when compared to the DS, the best selling console of all time and there is no console that even remotely fits the description of "Sega NES 16-bit".


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## d3p (Apr 22, 2013)

dead5 said:


> Uhh... *the PS2 had massive developer support*, the PSP was a failure only when compared to the DS, the best selling console of all time and there is no console that even remotely fits the description of "*Sega NES 16-bit*".



If PS2 had massive developer support then, Why do you think PS2 is suppose to be discontinued ?? Only coz of PS4 ?? Well you can't run PS3 games on PS2 neither PS4 games. 

PS2 might have a massive games library but from 2013 onwards we might not have any more games developed for PS2. 

If game developer builts the game to run on a console then its more optimized, it doesn't make much difference whether its for PS3 or PS2.

The other one is my fault. Its Sega genesis & NES 16bit consoles.


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## CommanderShawnzer (Apr 22, 2013)

d3p said:


> If PS2 *has* massive developer support then, Why do you think PS2 is suppose to be discontinued ?? Only coz of PS4 ?? Well you can't run PS3 games on PS2 neither PS4 games.
> 
> PS2 might have a massive games library but from 2013 onwards we might not have any more games developed for PS2.
> 
> ...






dead5 said:


> Uhh... the PS2 *had* massive developer support, the PSP was a failure only when compared to the DS, the best selling console of all time and there is no console that even remotely fits the description of "Sega NES 16-bit".



@d3p : PS2 is a faqing 13 year old console,its time has come.Do Gamecube and Xbox exist now? 
Your Argument is Invalid
Btw *Has* is present,*Had* is past


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## heidi2521 (Apr 22, 2013)

LOL. I see. I the context of the thread I misinterpreted the words 'will die' to mean 'will be Dreamcasted'. In that case pretty much every platform other than PC will die .

BTW, there is no such thing as a "NES 16bit console". You are probably referring to the *S*NES.


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## vickybat (Apr 22, 2013)

d3p said:


> If PS2 has massive developer support then, Why do you think PS2 is suppose to be discontinued ?? Only coz of PS4 ?? Well you can't run PS3 games on PS2 neither PS4 games.
> 
> PS2 might have a massive games library but from 2013 onwards we might not have any more games developed for PS2.
> 
> ...



Well the answer is quite simple. It simply because technology should move on. PS2's aging hardware couldn't keep up with newer development standards and api's.
It had to retire. Same thing can be said about its predecessor i.e PS1 and its successor (ps3) will also meet the same fate down the line. Its how things work. The same way a 7970 replaced a 6970, PS3 replaced PS2. 

Consoles generally have a lifespan of 8-10 years and ps2 successfully completed its tenure. Its the most successful home console ever released with some stunning franchises like "God Of War", "Twisted Metal", "Killzone", "Ratchet & Clank","ICO","Shadow Of The Colossus" , Metal Gear solid (2 & 3) , Gran Turismo 4 and many more.

You can call PS2 a legend, *arguably the most successful console of all time*. Its has sold 155 million units worldwide beating 153 million units of nintendo DS which is a handheld.


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## d3p (Apr 22, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> @d3p : PS2 is a faqing 13 year old console,its time has come.Do Gamecube and Xbox exist now?
> Your Argument is Invalid
> Btw *Has* is present,*Had* is past



But that same PS2 ran for 13yrs  compared to Gamecube or Xbox. Isn't it ??


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## heidi2521 (Apr 22, 2013)

vickybat said:


> Well the answer is quite simple. It simply because technology should move on. PS2's aging hardware couldn't keep up with newer development standards and api's.
> It had to retire. Same thing can be said about its predecessor i.e PS1 and its successor (ps3) will also meet the same fate down the line. Its how things work. The same way a 7970 replaced a 6970, PS3 replaced PS2.
> 
> Consoles generally have a lifespan of 8-10 years and ps2 successfully completed its tenure. Its the most successful home console ever released with some stunning franchises like "God Of War", "Twisted Metal", "Killzone", "Ratchet & Clank","ICO","Shadow Of The Colossus" , Metal Gear solid (2 & 3) , Gran Turismo 4 and many more.
> ...



Are we or are we not launch adjusting sales data in this thread? Because if it is launch adjusted the DS outsells the PS2 easily. 

Overall, it can be argued that the DS is the most successful console of all time because:

1. It was never sold at a loss.
2. It had greater software sales and a higher attach rate.
3. A lot of the PS2's initial sales came from the fact that it was a cheap DVD player and many of those didn't buy enough games for Sony to make a profit off of them. 
4. When launch adjusted it comfortably outsells the PS2 and is still doing well in Europe and Japan. Given the same time it will almost certainly outsell the PS2. 
5. In the end the DS is a _more_ profitable product than the PS2 for the parent company. 

Bonus: It gave us awesome games like The World Ends With You, Four Warriors of Light and Radiant Historia . 

P.S. ICO and SotC are not franchises.


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## vickybat (Apr 22, 2013)

dead5 said:


> Are we or are we not launch adjusting sales data in this thread? Because if it is launch adjusted the DS outsells the PS2 easily.
> 
> Overall, it can be argued that the DS is the most successful console of all time because:
> 
> ...



No, DS never out sold ps2 in worldwide sales. Check below:



> *On November 1, 2008, Nintendo released the Nintendo DSi, another redesign with several hardware improvements and new features. As of December 31, 2012, all Nintendo DS models combined have sold 153.67 million units,[1] making it the best selling handheld game console to date, and the second best selling video game console of all time, behind the PlayStation 2*



Nintendo DS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_2 

DS did surpass ps2 once marginally at 153.69 million compared to 153.68 million of ps2. But the latter maxed out at 155 million before going EOL.


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## heidi2521 (Apr 22, 2013)

vickybat said:


> No, DS never out sold ps2 in worldwide sales. Check below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





			
				dead5 said:
			
		

> *When launch adjusted* it comfortably outsells the PS2 and is still doing well in Europe and Japan. Given the same time it will almost certainly outsell the PS2.



The DS is ~8 years into its life. The PS2 is ~13 years into its life. FY 2009 it had sold 139.5 mn LTD. Q3 FY 2013 the DS has sold ~153 mn.


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## CommanderShawnzer (Apr 22, 2013)

Welcome to the sales data thread  !


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## vickybat (Apr 22, 2013)

That way, its an apples to oranges comparison. You can't compare the statistics of a home console with a handheld in outright shelf life basis.
It always comes down to figures no matter how differently they were achieved. DS was immensely successful no doubt. 

You also can't compare DS games with PS2 titles.
Maximum DS games were of side scrolling and cartoony nature( *Proved great for a handheld device*) while PS2 bought 3d graphics. Its not an equal comparison between the two. Ps2 was also more expensive early on than the DS ever was ($299 vs $149).

About ICO and SOTC, i know technically they are not franchise and part of a trilogy (project TRICO). But the sheer success and cult following of the games, gave them that status.
The latter proved to be a system seller.

The Last guardian will probably launch in the PS4.


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## heidi2521 (Apr 22, 2013)

vickybat said:


> That way, its an apples to oranges comparison. You can't compare the statistics of a home console with a handheld in outright shelf life basis.
> It always comes down to figures no matter how differently they were achieved. DS was immensely successful no doubt.
> 
> You also can't compare DS games with PS2 titles.
> ...



Why can't you compare a portable console and a home console? Whenever comparing sales of two consoles with wildly different dates it is only fair to launch adjust the sales data so as not to give one console an unfair advantage over the other. Given four more years the DS will outsell the PS2 if it continues its current trajectory. 

Justify your statement that most DS games were side scrolling. Because these lists clearly disagree with you. 
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nintendo_DS_games_(A–I)
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nintendo_DS_games_(J–R)
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nintendo_DS_games_(S–Z)

The SNES had games with 3D graphics so it would be absolutely incorrect to say that the PS2 brought 3D graphics. The DS has 3D games too. Developers had to stylize their games due to the low power of the DS compared to home consoles because if they didn't the games would look like something out of the era of ugly-ass polygons.

Because PCs have games like Shogun 2, Europa Universalis 3 and Company of Heroes, it doesn't mean that they can't be compared to consoles.

The PS3 was also more expensive than the PS2 ever was("599 US Dollars") yet it is not considered unfair to compare the two.

I'm sorry, but how does sheer success and cult following of a game give it "Franchise" status?


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## vickybat (Apr 22, 2013)

^^ You simply can't. Its not an exact match.  Same way you can't compare two generations like ps3 and ps2. PS3 is still doing great and may break ps2's all time sales. 

Well all DS titles were abysmally scaled down from home console versions. Example "Madden NFL". After seeing DS screenshots, i was confused if it was really a Madden game.
The DS version of altair's chronicles looks like an NES title. *DS simply sold because people love simple and less complicated games in a handheld.* Ps2 sold for different reasons.

You can't say SNES titles to be 3d. We saw real depth with the advent of N64 and PS1 only.

DS games and ps2 games aren't an equal match. The same way you can't compare a 50 buck android game with a AAA ps3 title  and say, the former sold more.

Play MGS4 in a ps3 and IOS. Tell me, are the two games an exact match? Is there an argument between the sales of their respective software and most of all, will you get the same experience in the two platforms? The answer is a big *"NO"*. There is simply no comparison between PS3 MGS and IOS MGS. Same rule holds for ps2 and ds.

No need to argue on this further.

About ICO and SOTC, i leave it for you to figure out why.


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## heidi2521 (Apr 22, 2013)

vickybat said:


> ^^ You simply can't. Its not an exact match.  Same way you can't compare two generations like ps3 and ps2. PS3 is still doing great and may break ps2's all time sales.
> 
> Well all DS titles were abysmally scaled down from home console versions. Example "Madden NFL". After seeing DS screenshots, i was confused if it was really a Madden game.
> The DS version of altair's chronicles looks like an NES title. DS simply sold because people love simple and less complicated games in a handheld. Ps2 sold for different reasons.
> ...



You can and do compare different generations. Where do you think the benchmarks the current generation is put up against come from?

We are arguing about sales data, not the reasons behind the sales so it is not relevant. We compare the DS and the PS2 because they are both primarily interactive digital entertainment devices. 

If this game doesn't have real depth, then nothing does.

*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Fox_(video_game)

The DS games which are in the same genre and offer the same kind of gameplay as the PS2 can and should be compared. There is no reason not to. For example, You can compare Lucifers Call to Devil Survivor. 

Do you seriously think Pokemon, The World Ends With You, Radiant Historia, Soma Bringer, Shin Megami Tensei etc. are less complicated?

You don't compare IOS games and full console experiences because they provide entirely different experiences. An iOS game with deep mechanics can be compared to a console game with similar deep mechanics. For example, XCOM:EU can be compared to their counterparts and other strategy games. If a full scale FF 1-6 like game is made for IOS, it can be compared to other similar titles on consoles. And nobody was comparing sales data of DS games to PS2 games.

And I cant understand how a single game can be considered a part of a franchise. Please explain.


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## vickybat (Apr 22, 2013)

^^ We are not arguing about anything. Only you are. The facts are right there. Ps2 is the best selling console of all time and not DS. I gave you numbers as proof. Period!
You started comparing apples with oranges. Not me.

About Star Fox being technically 3d, yes. But again its an apples to mangoes comparison. Its nowhere near the no. of polygon count the N64 and PS1 offered. Don't post for the sake of argument.
Try and find some logic too.

*See these-*


Spoiler



[YOUTUBE]ERm6GUF4-8I[/YOUTUBE]
                [YOUTUBE]XULNre7uFts[/YOUTUBE]



Compare this with Star Fox. We can say StarFox to be an inspiration and brought something new. But it was perfected and truly done how it should be done in the later generations.

Check this list- Top 100 Best PS1 Games Ever

And for God's sake, pokemon!!!!!!
Its not about being complicated. In that case, temple run will be compared with MGS .

All the games you mentioned are typical handheld titles with no maturity level. *Its just for fun on the go.* That's where DS struck the market.

Yes, you don't compare pokemon , shin megami, The world ends with you etc, with God of War, Metal gear solid snake eater, killzone, Twisted metal and the likes.
You don't compare Asphalt GT for the DS with Gran Turismo 4 on the ps2.

*Its not about being complicated. Its an apples to oranges comparison.* As simply put.
Lift that Nintendo Teflon coating and you'll understand my point. *I'm not criticizing the DS here.* It was built for a purpose and it succeeded. 

About that game being a franchise or not, like i said before, its upto you to figure why.


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## heidi2521 (Apr 23, 2013)

vickybat said:


> ^^ We are not arguing about anything. Only you are. The facts are right there. Ps2 is the best selling console of all time and not DS. I gave you numbers as proof. Period!
> You started comparing apples with oranges. Not me.
> 
> About Star Fox being technically 3d, yes. But again its an apples to mangoes comparison. Its nowhere near the no. of polygon count the N64 and PS1 offered. Don't post for the sake of argument.
> ...



We certainly are arguing. It takes two or more people to argue. It cannot be one way.

Let me remind you that the original argument is about whether the DS or PS 2 are more successful and not what has sold more. 

Nobody is doubting that the PS2 is currently the best selling console of all time. My point is that when using a similar timeframe the DS has outsold the PS2 and given the same amount of time it will easily outsell it. There was no apples to oranges comparison. 

Do explain how the polycount determines whether a game is 3D or not. "You can't say SNES titles to be 3d" clearly means that SNES titles operate in two dimensions only. I pointed out that that is wrong and now you are somehow trying to use polycount to defend your claim. A four poly tetrahedron is as 3D as a 2 mn poly human face. 

Since when do The World Ends With You, Soma Bringer, Shin Megami Tensei have no maturity level? Have you even played them? TWEWY, & SMT usually require at least 60 minutes per session to be enjoyed properly. Then there are titles like Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks where each session can extend into multiple hours. You claimed that DS games are not complicated. I pointed out that they are. There is no apples to oranges comparison.

Your original claim was that you cannot compare DS titles to PS2 titles. It wasn't you can't compare certain DS titles to certain PS2 titles. 

Nobody claimed that you are criticizing the DS or even implied it. Stop reading too much in between the lines.

And don't sidestep the question about ICO and SotC not being franchises. Answer it.


----------



## Extreme Gamer (Apr 23, 2013)

Looks like someone got his flamethrower out  (no I don't mean that he is starting a flame war).


----------



## vickybat (Apr 23, 2013)

dead5 said:


> We certainly are arguing. It takes two or more people to argue. It cannot be one way.
> 
> Let me remind you that the original argument is about whether the DS or PS 2 are more successful and not what has sold more.



In that case, PS2 is more successful than DS. I very well remember the argument and in fact, there isn't any.



dead5 said:


> Nobody is doubting that the PS2 is currently the best selling console of all time. My point is that when using a similar timeframe the DS has outsold the PS2 and given the same amount of time it will easily outsell it. There was no apples to oranges comparison.



Like it or not, its an apples to oranges comparison. And really, do DS games and consoles still sell like hot cakes?? I really don't think so buddy.
Smartphones and tablets are really eating up handheld markets. Its a fact. DS has no juice left to go on. It has been milked enough.



dead5 said:


> Do explain how the polycount determines whether a game is 3D or not. "You can't say SNES titles to be 3d" clearly means that SNES titles operate in two dimensions only. I pointed out that that is wrong and now you are somehow trying to use polycount to defend your claim. A four poly tetrahedron is as 3D as a 2 mn poly human face.



Of course i will. You know why john carmack is considered as father of 3d graphics and not shigeru miyamoto, coz starfox came before doom did right? Because that title did not have a true sense of *spatiality* like doom did. You must be thinking that i'm joking right? Read the following:



> Doom is a series of first-person shooter video games developed by id Software. The series focuses on the exploits of an unnamed space marine operating under the UAC (Union Aerospace Corp.), who fights hordes of undead and demons in order to survive. The series was widely considered as one of the pioneering first-person shooter series in the video game industry,* introducing features such as 3D graphics, true third dimension spatiality*, networked multiplayer gameplay, and support for player-created expansions with the Doom WAD format.



*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_(series)

The bold part says it all. If you don't know what 3d spatiality is, then please care to Google. That's what defines 3d space. Not a tetrahedron goofed up 3d model. 
That's why i said to remove the nintendo teflon coat that you wear. And i'm not trying to defend but trying to instill a sense of reality into you. Wake up from the nintendo world and look around buddy.



dead5 said:


> Since when do The World Ends With You, Soma Bringer, Shin Megami Tensei have no maturity level? Have you even played them? TWEWY, & SMT usually require at least 60 minutes per session to be enjoyed properly. Then there are titles like Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks where each session can extend into multiple hours. You claimed that DS games are not complicated. I pointed out that they are. There is no apples to oranges comparison.



Since when....ummm well since i saw some gameplay videos in youtube. Look i don't question their fun part and unique gameplay. Comparing these with God of War and the likes is definitely apples to oranges. You pick one guy from this forum who will disagree to what i say, and i'll concede defeat.

Do you even care reading my post or you simply write away from your nintendo land and what your heart desires? Please quote where i said DS games are uncomplicated? Yemple run isalso very complicated and i'm serious. I said its not about being complicated but their target audience are different.  Do you realize how dubious this discussion is? 



dead5 said:


> Your original claim was that you cannot compare DS titles to PS2 titles. It wasn't you can't compare certain DS titles to certain PS2 titles.
> Nobody claimed that you are criticizing the DS or even implied it. Stop reading too much in between the lines.



Reading the lines???? No no no no no....infact i indirectly do. I really don't like the approach nintendo takes in recent game developments and strategy ( at least for console).
Different story for handheld though, and there was high chance of you might thinking that i was bashing at the DS. If you don't think so, well and good.



dead5 said:


> And don't sidestep the question about ICO and SotC not being franchises. Answer it.



Yeah yeah, about this. Well, its like your little homework. If you want answers, you've got to find it out yourself.
You can bail out anytime though.


----------



## Cilus (Apr 23, 2013)

Non another Nintendo WII debate thread!



Spoiler



dead5, I don't wanna see another Wii thread for public pole reason. If you wanna discuss about wii games then create a thread and discuss. But what will happen with WII company or Nintendo in future, what should they do...you are not one to decide it and neither our polling is going to change the fact. 
You are creating same type of thread again and again which are actually providing nothing to improve the forum apart from serving your personal igo. So I am requesting you not to create this kind of threads here and there where your posts are counted. Rather create those in Chit Chat section and fight everybody else. And this is my final warning.



^^ Extremely sorry for my mistake as I thought Dead5 is the one to open it. Whatever I have said in my previous post actually goes for Vickybat. Vicky, please don't start this kind of discussion again and again.
Dead5, please don't mind anything, it was a mistake from my side. Sorry again.


----------



## vickybat (Apr 23, 2013)

^^ My apologies buddy. Got a bit carried away there. Gamers are free to play any title they see fit. 
In the original post, i clearly mentioned  that this thread is not meant for any sorts of arguements or debates. Anyways, will see strongly that it won't happen again. 

Besides, i think this thread should remain closed so that it only serves as a voting purpose.


----------



## vickybat (Apr 27, 2013)

*Iwata’s Battle Plan For Nintendo*


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (Apr 27, 2013)

^I hope Sony makes a "Battle Plan" for the vita


----------



## vickybat (Apr 27, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> ^I hope Sony makes a "Battle Plan" for the vita



Yeah, it too needs one. All eyes on E3.


----------



## HCgamer101 (Apr 28, 2013)

i really love nintendo, but this is just getting worse. this just came in 

Nintendo Wii U sales in dire straits, being outsold by original Wii | N4G


----------



## vickybat (Apr 28, 2013)

^^ This console is definitely doomed. For the first time, nintendo aren't gonna hold their  annual E3 press conference. Either its a cost cutting measure or they don't have anything significant to show against the likes of sony and microsoft. They are trying to keep a low profile. But is it gonna help in turning the tide of poor wii u sales? They have to come up with some formidable plan and move away from their usual game development strategy. Time to change their target audience, mostly of whom are kids. Should move into a more mature territory in order to cater to gamers of all ages.


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (Apr 28, 2013)

vickybat said:


> ^^ This console is definitely doomed. For the first time, nintendo aren't gonna hold their  annual E3 press conference. Either its a cost cutting measure or they don't have anything significant to show against the likes of sony and microsoft. They are trying to keep a low profile. But is it gonna help in turning the tide of poor wii u sales? They have to come up with some formidable plan and move away from their usual game development strategy. Time to change their target audience, mostly of whom are kids. Should move into a more mature territory in order to cater to gamers of all ages.



Actually, rumor is that they are skipping E3 to hold a "Nintendo Direct" conference exclusively for the Wii U,so as to ensure that their Customer's attention is focused on the Wii U only and not on competitor products(like PS4/Next Xbox)


----------



## HCgamer101 (Apr 28, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> Actually, rumor is that they are skipping E3 to hold a "Nintendo Direct" conference exclusively for the Wii U,so as to ensure that their Customer's attention is focused on the Wii U only and not on competitor products(like PS4/Next Xbox)



thats like saying, that i wont advertize food on a food channel because others are also going to do that. I feel that nintendo direct is really not the way to go, since it only focuses on a pre-existing install base and add's nothing new.

Apart from that, i am really waiting to see what trump card nintendo is holding in its hand right now. Because it pretty much looks like either it will diminish like the sega or we have a massive price-cut and then it starts selling slowly. ( with losses for nintendo initially. and then it will return to profitability after 4 years or so )


----------



## Extreme Gamer (May 1, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> Actually, rumor is that they are skipping E3 to hold a "Nintendo Direct" conference exclusively for the Wii U,so as to ensure that their Customer's attention is focused on the Wii U only and not on competitor products(like PS4/Next Xbox)



Agreed.

It isn't a big deal to not hold an E3 contest if Nintendo is doing a Nintendo Direct Special for the Wii U. In any case, their Nintendo Direct announcements make it to the news channels anyway even if the viewership will be less than that for E3 (which I don't think is ever the case).



HCgamer101 said:


> thats like saying, that i wont advertize food on a food channel because others are also going to do that. I feel that nintendo direct is really not the way to go, *since it only focuses on a pre-existing install base and add's nothing new.*
> 
> Apart from that, i am really waiting to see what trump card nintendo is holding in its hand right now. Because it pretty much looks like either it will diminish like the sega or we have a massive price-cut and then it starts selling slowly. ( with losses for nintendo initially. and then it will return to profitability after 4 years or so )



Anyone can view a nintendo direct. You don't have to own a Nintendo console or be an existing customer to view it  In fact, new customers can turn up if the announcements are awesome.

In any case, Nintendoom is not happening in the foreseeable future, even if the Wii U fails (not impossible but unlikely if you have $10bn in your bank account). Proof is their market share.

*www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/130425/img/03l.jpg

*www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/130425/img/04l.jpg

*www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/130425/img/05l.jpg

Basically even if Nintendo makes losses on the Wii U, the 3DS is more than capable to keep them afloat in the console industry.


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 1, 2013)

Extreme Gamer said:


> Agreed.
> 
> It isn't a big deal to not hold an E3 contest if Nintendo is doing a Nintendo Direct Special for the Wii U. In any case, their Nintendo Direct announcements make it to the news channels anyway even if the viewership will be less than that for E3 (which I don't think is ever the case).
> 
> ...



The main title of this thread is that wether Wii-U will meet the same fate of the dreamcast or not. Why are you bringing in the 3DS? 

i think the point that guy is trying to make is that, nintendo direct does not reach a wide audience, because except for people who own a nintendo system, very few will actually care about it.

nintendooom will happen, not now maybe 10 years down the line if they continue to milk the same old franchises.


----------



## Extreme Gamer (May 1, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> The main title of this thread is that wether Wii-U will meet the same fate of the dreamcast or not. Why are you bringing in the 3DS?
> 
> i think the point that guy is trying to make is that, nintendo direct does not reach a wide audience, because except for people who own a nintendo system, very few will actually care about it.
> 
> nintendooom will happen, not now maybe 10 years down the line if they continue to milk the same old franchises.



Okay genius,

1. If Wii U meets Dreamcast's fate, it means that Nintendo stops making consoles...which will not happen even if Wii U does fail, which is the reason for mentioning the 3DS. Try to put 2 and 2 together sometimes.

2. Journalists care about company announcements, so even if a gamer does not watch Nintendo Direct, that does not mean he/she won't get to know about the announcement. For anything significant, there will be reports and articles across the internet.

3. Nintendoom will not happen in the foreseeable future. And it won't necessarily happen 10 years down the line because you can't foresee that far into the future. What's stopping the release of a new console or many awesome games for the existing console in the next many (6-7) years?


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 1, 2013)

Extreme Gamer said:


> Okay* genius*,
> 
> 1. If Wii U meets Dreamcast's fate, it means that Nintendo stops making consoles...which will not happen even if Wii U does fail, which is the reason for mentioning the 3DS. Try to put 2 and 2 together sometimes.
> 
> ...



mind your tone. 

1. i did not say that, i said that nintendo is doomed not dead. 

2. we all know how internet journalism works, and what are its effects.

3. you are contradicting yourself.

and if you want a more elaborate answer, take a look at how nintendo was the only company which single handedly dominated the gaming industry and since the arrival of the xbox and playstation its only going down.


----------



## Extreme Gamer (May 1, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> *mind your tone. *
> 
> 1. i did not say that, i said that nintendo is doomed not dead.
> 
> ...



1. If nintendo is doomed, then it means they've stopped making their consoles.

2. Then you will agree with me.

3. No I'm not. I said that they will not be doomed in the foreseeable future, and foreseeable future is ~1-5 years depending on the industry. For video games it is ~2 years. And 10 years is *not* foreseeable. What part of what I said do you not understand?

And yet the DS dominated the PSP. I loved my PSP until the games for the console got boring, so don't tell me that the PSP was awesome and something along those lines.


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 1, 2013)

Extreme Gamer said:


> 1. If nintendo is doomed, then it means they've stopped making their consoles.
> 
> 2. Then you will agree with me.
> 
> ...



1. not necessarily, i wouldnt say that

2. In fact i wont. Because most articles published on the internet have no method of authentication and are based on half baked research even when they are from reputed websites.

3. You contradicted yourself. End of story. 

When did i say that the DS did not dominate the psp? What i mean was that anyone who was a DS buyer bought a psp, therefore the market share dropped.


----------



## heidi2521 (May 1, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> 1. not necessarily, i wouldnt say that
> 
> 2. In fact i wont. Because most articles published on the internet have no method of authentication and are based on half baked research even when they are from reputed websites.
> 
> ...



1. Then what is nintendoomed for you?

2.Not true. Most of them have YT links/rehosted videos as proof. Even if it is true,  it does not change the fact that most gamers get to know about it and the internet forums are flooded with information about this.

3. [how?]


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 1, 2013)

dead5 said:


> 1. Then what is nintendoomed for you?
> 
> 2.Not true. Most of them have YT links/rehosted videos as proof. Even if it is true,  it does not change the fact that most gamers get to know about it and the internet forums are flooded with information about this.
> 
> 3. [how?]



1. when nintendo sales drop and the company is barely profitable 

2. yes it is true. Gamers only interested in nintendo will know. 

3. I have highlighted it, read again.


----------



## Extreme Gamer (May 1, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> 1. not necessarily, i wouldnt say that
> 
> 2. In fact i wont. Because most articles published on the internet have no method of authentication and are based on half baked research even when they are from reputed websites.
> 
> ...



1. Then what do you mean by Nintendoom? You're either speaking in Cryptic, or you're running around in circles.

2. Any reliable website will link to their sources and any other articles they may have taken data from.

3. I'm not contradicting myself. Rather, you're showing me an apparently less-than-perfect grasp of the English language.

Erm the PSP and the DS were first available between 10 days of each other. Dec 2 for DS and Dec 12 for PSP. I would say that their market share went down only if it was a gradual decline. Currently, it seems that in the handheld space Nintendo butt-raped Sony twice.



NoasArcAngel said:


> 1. when nintendo sales drop and the company is barely profitable
> 
> 2. yes it is true. Gamers only interested in nintendo will know.
> 
> 3. I have highlighted it, read again.



1. The first area they would target is the console for layoffs then, because the engineering department is always the most expensive.

2. You've changed the topic. You mention that internet news is unreliable/ half-baked. Now you say only nintendo fans read nintendo news.

3. And only indicated your apparently less-than-perfect grasp of english.


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 1, 2013)

Extreme Gamer said:


> 1. Then what do you mean by Nintendoom? You're either speaking in Cryptic, or you're running around in circles.
> 
> 2. Any reliable website will link to their sources and any other articles they may have taken data from.
> 
> ...



1. - 

2. - 

3. Just read the para again. 

Nintendoom will not happen in the foreseeable future because you can't foresee that far into the future

nintendo news, from nintendo sources.


----------



## heidi2521 (May 1, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> 1. when nintendo sales drop and the company is barely profitable
> 
> 2. yes it is true. Gamers only interested in nintendo will know.
> 
> 3. I have highlighted it, read again.



1. By the same logic Sony was doomed at the PS3 launch. Plus, Nintendo sales are quite high right now.

2. You changed the topic. BTW, I don't think only gamers interested in Nintendo visit sites like IGN, Polygon, Destructoid, Eurogamer, rev3 and forums like /v/, /r/games, /r/gaming, neogaf, neoseeker, giant bomb etc.

3. "Nintendoom will not happen in the foreseeable future" does not contradict "10 years into the future is unforeseeable so we can't predict Nintendoom for that". Do point out the contradiction here.


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 1, 2013)

please stop pointing out to others how good or bad their english is, take a look at yourself.


----------



## Extreme Gamer (May 1, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> 1. -
> 
> 2. -
> 
> ...



What dead5 said:



dead5 said:


> 1. By the same logic Sony was doomed at the PS3 launch. Plus, Nintendo sales are quite high right now.
> 
> 2. You changed the topic. BTW, I don't think only gamers interested in Nintendo visit sites like IGN, Polygon, Destructoid, Eurogamer, rev3 and forums like /v/, /r/games, /r/gaming, neogaf, neoseeker, giant bomb etc.
> 
> 3. "Nintendoom will not happen in the foreseeable future" does not contradict "10 years into the future is unforeseeable so we can't predict Nintendoom for that". Do point out the contradiction here.


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 1, 2013)

dead5 said:


> 1. By the same logic Sony was doomed at the PS3 launch. Plus, Nintendo sales are quite high right now.
> 
> 2. You changed the topic. BTW, I don't think only gamers interested in Nintendo visit sites like IGN, Polygon, Destructoid, Eurogamer, rev3 and forums like /v/, /r/games, /r/gaming, neogaf, neoseeker, giant bomb etc.
> 
> 3. "Nintendoom will not happen in the foreseeable future" does not contradict "10 years into the future is unforeseeable so we can't predict Nintendoom for that". Do point out the contradiction here.



1. This is discussion is not about sony and the ps3.. stick to the topic please. 

2. Stop being sarcastic, you can make your point without sarcasm also. 

3. Extreme_Gamer edited his statement, i was pointing out to the original one 



Extreme Gamer said:


> Okay genius,
> 
> 1. If Wii U meets Dreamcast's fate, it means that Nintendo stops making consoles...which will not happen even if Wii U does fail, which is the reason for mentioning the 3DS. Try to put 2 and 2 together sometimes.
> 
> ...


----------



## Extreme Gamer (May 1, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> 1. This is discussion is not about sony and the ps3.. stick to the topic please.
> 
> 2. Stop being sarcastic, you can make your point without sarcasm also.
> 
> 3. Extreme_Gamer edited his statement, i was pointing out to the original one



1. He's making a point by using a relevant example.

2. No sarcasm there, lol.

3. You liar, I *did not* edit my post. Your quote is identical to what I posted == no contradiction.


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 1, 2013)

Extreme Gamer said:


> 1. He's making a point by using a relevant example.
> 
> 2. No sarcasm there, lol.
> 
> 3. You liar, I *did not* edit my post. Your quote is identical to what I posted.



3. sorry about that, i was busy in the offtopic thread  i misread it .

1. The thread is about nintendo, why bring sony. You want a SONY vs nintendo? dont think the mods doo

2. - 

i misread that, he did not edit it 



> 3. No I'm not. I said that they will not be doomed in the foreseeable future, and foreseeable future is ~1-5 years depending on the industry. For video games it is ~2 years. And 10 years is not foreseeable. What part of what I said do you not understand?



thanks for pointing that out.


----------



## heidi2521 (May 1, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> 1. This is discussion is not about sony and the ps3.. stick to the topic please.
> 
> 2. Stop being sarcastic, you can make your point without sarcasm also.
> 
> 3. Extreme_Gamer edited his statement, i was pointing out to the original one



1. I was just using the PS3 as a relevant example to point out that your logic is flawed. 

2. I was not being sarcastic. Even if I was, sarcasm is allowed in this forum. 

3. I'm sorry, but I don't see any sign that extreme gamer edited his post. Even if he did your quote and the current post are identical the meaning is still the same and I still see no contradiction.


----------



## Extreme Gamer (May 1, 2013)

So you're saying that a previous post of mine is contradictory?


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 1, 2013)

dead5 said:


> 1. I was just using the PS3 as a relevant example to point out that your logic is flawed.
> 
> 2. I was not being sarcastic. Even if I was, sarcasm is allowed in this forum.
> 
> 3. I'm sorry, but I don't see any sign that extreme gamer edited his post. Even if he did your quote and the current post are identical the meaning is still the same and I still see no contradiction.



1. ps3 was never doomed in 2007. Check the financial stats for that year for SONY.

2. Sarcasm is being a smart ass is not


----------



## heidi2521 (May 1, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> 3. sorry about that, i was busy in the offtopic thread  i misread it .
> 
> 1. The thread is about nintendo, why bring sony. You want a SONY vs nintendo? dont think the mods doo
> 
> ...



1. Nobody is making it a Sony vs. Nintendo thread. Using a Sony example does not make it a Sony vs. Nintendo thread.


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 1, 2013)

dead5 said:


> 1. Nobody is making it a Sony vs. Nintendo thread. Using a Sony example does not make it a Sony vs. Nintendo thread.



@offtopic 

it does, because then you compare sony and nintendo. tell me im wrong.


----------



## Extreme Gamer (May 1, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> 1. ps3 was never doomed in 2007. Check the financial stats for that year for SONY.
> 
> 2. Sarcasm is being a smart ass is not



1.*i.imgur.com/zYw1A.jpg

2. Why are you trying so hard to prove that you're english is less than satisfactory? Please rephrase that into grammatically correct syntax.


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 1, 2013)

Extreme Gamer said:


> 1.*i.imgur.com/zYw1A.jpg
> 
> 2. Why are you trying so hard to prove that you're english is less than satisfactory? Please rephrase that into grammatically correct syntax.



my english is perfectly fine. and i think you should use common sense to figure out what my reply means, the fact that you cannot understand it tells me about your level of english. 

The ps3 went into design by 2005 and by that time SONY had a very good financial record. And when the ps3 launched in 2007, the 599$ pricetag.


----------



## Extreme Gamer (May 1, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> my english is perfectly fine. and i think you should use common sense to figure out what my reply means, the fact that you cannot understand it tells me about your level of english.
> 
> *The ps3 went into design by 2005 and by that time SONY had a very good financial record. And when the ps3 launched in 2007, the 599$ pricetag.*



Now look who's contradicting himself 



> ps3 was *never doomed* in *2007*. Check the financial stats *for that year* for SONY.


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 1, 2013)

Extreme Gamer said:


> Now look who's contradicting himself



i am, not contradicting myself. Accepting my mistake. I have some other issues at hand, we can debate this whem im back.


----------



## Extreme Gamer (May 1, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> i am, not contradicting myself. Accepting my mistake. I have some other issues at hand, we can debate this whem im back.


Which means you were contradicting yourself.


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 5, 2013)

look who's talking.   contradictions and your statements could make a thread together

and there is nothing wrong with that statement, even if I am to go by the stats you provided from god knows where. Sony put a staggering 1 billion pounds in the development of the ps3 not to mention first party studios and development of services like psn

Sony took a great risk with a great product and the effort paid off, unlike Nintendo sitting with billions in their banks and still not accepting Wiius fate.

sometimes we have to accept fate


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (May 5, 2013)

^Too early to make an assumption about Wii U.It hasn't even completed its first year yet.


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 5, 2013)

yes, when the new Xbox and PlayStation are just around the corner


----------



## Extreme Gamer (May 5, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> look who's talking.   contradictions and your statements could make a thread together
> 
> and there is nothing wrong with that statement, even if I am to go by the stats you provided from god knows where. Sony put a staggering 1 billion pounds in the development of the ps3 not to mention first party studios and development of services like psn
> 
> ...



That doesn't mean they didn't make a loss in 2007. Which you said they didn't and then tried to dismiss...


----------



## heidi2521 (May 5, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> look who's talking.   contradictions and your statements could make a thread together
> 
> and there is nothing wrong with that statement, even if I am to go by the stats you provided from god knows where. Sony put a staggering 1 billion pounds in the development of the ps3 not to mention first party studios and development of services like psn
> 
> ...



Point the contradictions out. 

Source for his claims: 

Sony Global - Historical Data

I'm not sure how how much Sony put into the PS3 is relevant. 

Expansion of internal studios, contracting external studios ironing out the Wii U's OS, developing games for it and planning a massive push on it once their games start flowing (in August) is not just sitting with billions in their banks and not accepting Wii U's fate.

And by 'accept fate' do you mean Nintendo should go third party and say "**** the Wii U" and abandon the console damaging their consumer reputation, investor reputation and any and all confidence in the company it has built up over decades along with wasting billions of dollars in R&D, production and unreleased games and result in the fracturing of their internal structure and developers fleeing en masse? If that is what you mean then Sony can 'accept the Vita's fate' and abandon it and start making games for the 3DS. 

Nintendo's long burn strategy ensures that they will not go out of business easily. SM:S sold over 5.5 - 6 mn and SSBM ~7mn on a console with a tiny user base like the Gamecube. Most titles can only dream of such sales on a much larger user base.



NoasArcAngel said:


> yes, when the new Xbox and PlayStation are just around the corner



I don't see how the next Xbox and Play$tation automatically doom the Wii U. Nintendo franchises have massive selling power which M$ony's aren't even close to rivalling. If the rumours are true and they do have a blitzkrieg of games coming starting with Pikmin 3, then they will be able to get enough of a user base to sustain the console for quite some time. 



Spoiler



I found a tool which can predict your position no matter what:

*i.minus.com/iFxlRgFpLGJtZ.gif


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (May 5, 2013)

when the ps4/nextbox launches, that's the time Wii U will sell


----------



## heidi2521 (May 5, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> when the ps4/nextbox launches, that's the time Wii U will sell



Nyet. But it can build enough momentum to survive by then. My point is that they won't automatically doom the console, especially if it has a decent library of awesome titles by then and is sold at a lower price.


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (May 5, 2013)

dead5 said:


> Nyet. But it can build enough momentum to survive by then. My point is that they won't automatically doom the console, especially if it has a decent library of awesome titles by then and is *sold at a lower price.*



stuff in bold is what matters.
i dont think ppl will buy $699 PS4


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 5, 2013)

dead5 said:


> Point the contradictions out.
> 
> Source for his claims:
> 
> ...



how much Sony put into the ps3 is definitely relevant, because Sony does not only make gaming consoles

you know, all third party devs are abandoning Wii u,  and Nintendo wont be able to push alone on first party games.

the console has already been hacked. Nintendo makes its profit on software sales and not hardware

you are the only one boiling about the ps vita 



CommanderShawnzer said:


> stuff in bold is what matters.
> i dont think ppl will buy $699 PS4



you can stop trolling now


----------



## Extreme Gamer (May 5, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> how much Sony put into the ps3 is definitely relevant, because Sony does not only make gaming consoles
> 
> you know, all third party devs are abandoning Wii u,  and Nintendo wont be able to push alone on first party games.
> 
> ...



If how much sony put into PS3 is relevant, then you should not forget that their other divisions are not as profitable as the Playstation division. And your claim that the Wii U is being abandoned is factually incorrect. The console hasnt been hacked to a stage where pirated games will work. All they have been able to do is back up data. Besides they need a modchip. A software hack hasn't happened yet. Xbox 360 got its own modchips as early as 2006. And then nintendo sells the 3DS at a profit.

How is shawnzer trolling?


----------



## heidi2521 (May 5, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> stuff in bold is what matters.
> i dont think ppl will buy $699 PS4



I was referring to the price of the Wii U with that line.


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 6, 2013)

it has been hacked, games have been dumped



Extreme Gamer said:


> That doesn't mean they didn't make a loss in 2007. Which you said they didn't and then tried to dismiss...



I never said that Sony did or did not make a loss

thread is about wiiu!


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (May 6, 2013)

dead5 said:


> I was referring to the price of the Wii U with that line.



dude that is my point.people will slowly buy the cheap $350 Wii U rather than an Overpriced PS4


----------



## Extreme Gamer (May 6, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> it has been hacked, games have been dumped
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Really? Then what does that mean?


			
				NoasArcAngel said:
			
		

> Check the *financial stats* for that year for SONY.



*Bold* and _italics_ added by me.

EDIT: And are those dumped games playable (yet)? _*NO!*_


----------



## heidi2521 (May 6, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> how much Sony put into the ps3 is definitely relevant, because Sony does not only make gaming consoles
> 
> you know, all third party devs are abandoning Wii u,  and Nintendo wont be able to push alone on first party games.
> 
> ...



DYK: EA is the only major publisher who had pledged support for the Wii U that abandoned it. 

Publishers with whom Nintendo has had good relations like Namco and Sega are still supportive of the Wii U. I seriously doubt that the DS(NSMB, Pokemon, Nintendogs), 3DS(SM3DL, MK, AC:NL), Wii(Wii Sports, TLoZ:TP), Gameboy(Pokemon, Tetris), Gameboy Advance(Pokemon), NES(SMB), SNES(SMK, SMW, DKC) were pushed on third party games. This thread is not about being massively successful but about being Dreamcasted. Nintendo FP is strong enough to prevent that. 

We have just seen dumped games until now. No piracy yet. It being a modchip means that it will be inaccessible to >90%
of console owners. and chances are that the Wii U OS can simply be patched to render it useless. An Initial blockade changing the key and a second update to patch the exploit will be enough. 

I was simply pointing out the flaw in your logic by using the PS Vita as an example. I am not boiling over it.



NoasArcAngel said:


> it has been hacked, games have been dumped
> 
> 
> 
> ...



DYK: The Wii U does not exist in a vacuum.



CommanderShawnzer said:


> dude that is my point.people will slowly buy the cheap $350 Wii U rather than an Overpriced PS4



I see. I doubt that Sony will repeat the "599 US Dollars" mistake this time round but Nintendo can counter it by bundling an system selling game with the Wii U along with the Nintendo Land bundle and by releasing special editions of the console.

I know I'll buy a second one (for my office) if they release a special The Legend of Zelda edition


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 6, 2013)

dead5 said:


> DYK: EA is the only major publisher who had pledged support for the Wii U that abandoned it.
> 
> Publishers with whom Nintendo has had good relations like Namco and Sega are still supportive of the Wii U. I seriously doubt that the DS(NSMB, Pokemon, Nintendogs), 3DS(SM3DL, MK, AC:NL), Wii(Wii Sports, TLoZ:TP), Gameboy(Pokemon, Tetris), Gameboy Advance(Pokemon), NES(SMB), SNES(SMK, SMW, DKC) were pushed on third party games. This thread is not about being massively successful but about being Dreamcasted. Nintendo FP is strong enough to prevent that.
> 
> ...



ea has gone rest will follow. Nintendo fp milking franchises since 20 years. give it a break

are you a hardware hacker? no right! don't say anything about hacks then

you replying again and again only shows your...  can't put this in a polite way



Extreme Gamer said:


> Really? Then what does that mean?
> 
> 
> *Bold* and _italics_ added by me.
> ...



it means Sony had no intention of bailing oit the ps3

nice editing, you are an editor of a magazine or something?

time is all we need


----------



## heidi2521 (May 6, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> ea has gone rest will follow. Nintendo fp milking franchises since 20 years. give it a break
> 
> are you a hardware hacker? no right! don't say anything about hacks then
> 
> ...



Abandoning implies having pledged major support in the first place. Namco pledged support, they will stay on. You don't loan out an internal studio to a third party and give them one of your biggest franchises without any reciprocal support. Sega pledged support and they are still on. They say that they have fantastic new developments for the Wii U. Ubisoft grew up on Nintendo platforms(the Wii) so they will stay on. Activision is still on. 

[citation needed] on Nintendo _milking_ first party franchises for 30 years. BTW, this point is irrelevant. The point is that they still sell extremely well.

Are you a console maker? Don't say anything about consoles then.

Are you a movie maker? Don't say anything about movies then.

Are you a musical artist? Don't say anything about music then.

Are you a video game developer? Don't say anything about video games then.

You could look up a dictionary/thesaurus to find a way of expressing your opinions politely.

Anybody who comprehends english can see it did not mean that. 

Sony had _*NO INTENTION OF BAILING OUT THE PS3?!*_ 

Excuse me, but what planet are you living on? Sony did a lot including a redesign, price drop, rebranding effort, marketing push, getting exclusives, pushing FP games and more to bail the PS3 out on Earth atleast.

His editing is absolutely fine. He added an additional point and clearly demarcated it so that it would lead to no confusion.

FYI Magazine editors check, change and remove content, not add them before publication, not after.


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 6, 2013)

dead5 said:


> Abandoning implies having pledged major support in the first place. Namco pledged support, they will stay on. You don't loan out an internal studio to a third party and give them one of your biggest franchises without any reciprocal support.
> 
> [citation needed] on Nintendo _milking_ first party franchises for 30 years. BTW, this point is irrelevant. The point is that they still sell extremely well.
> 
> ...




first of all dude stop shouting. 

third party support and wii-u? still living in nintendoland? 

I am not a video game developer, but i have played more games than you, and owned more consoles than you to know what the trend is. Dont even get me started on hardware mods. From pandoras battery to softmodding the psp and mods for jtagged x360 and ps2 been there done it all. 

So i was right, you work for a publishing house. 

No console could survive that generation without the exclusives, as far as price drop is concerned the ps3 hardware - cbe and the blu ray disc drives got cheaper so why not share the profit with the consumer? 

redesign? of the ps3? You mean different SKU's Look up the technical lingo before making statements in that "Matter of fact voice"

EDIT:

nintendo milking out the fp franchise for 3 decades is totally relevant because the drop is sales and market capitalization by others have already started showing and this is only getting worse.


----------



## vickybat (May 6, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> nintendo milking out the fp franchise for 3 decades is totally relevant because the drop is sales and market capitalization by others have already started showing and this is only getting worse.



Absolutely seconded. Enough milking. Even i don't see any third party support for the soon to be doomed console. Ninty is so frustrated now, that its considering price drops to draw the European crowd. 

Wii U Price Drops Lower Than Ever - Cheat Code Central

North America also received a drop albeit a lower one.

Wii U Price Dips In North America - Cheat Code Central

Price drops, this early in a console's lifecycle are definitely not good signs.


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (May 6, 2013)

Wii U will be not "dreamcasted",more like "Game-Cubed"


----------



## vickybat (May 6, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> Wii U will be not "dreamcasted",more like "Game-Cubed"



Touche


----------



## heidi2521 (May 6, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> first of all dude stop shouting.
> 
> third party support and wii-u? still living in nintendoland?
> 
> ...



I am not shouting. I was just applying extreme emphasis on that portion of the statement.

A list of upcoming 3rd party games on the Wii U(not including indies, off the top of my head):

Resident Evil: Revelations Unveiled Edition
Deus Ex: Human Revolution Directors Cut
Project CARS
LEGO Marvel Superheroes
Lego Batman 2
Assassins Creed: Black Flag
Watch: Dogs
Rayman Legends
Splinter Cell: Conviction
Call of Duty: Ghosts
Project Phoenix
Skylanders Swap Force
Disney Infinity
Sacrilegium
Arkham Origins

No console could survive with exclusives, thats why Sony tried and got them in an effort to bail out the PS3. 

The price of the Cell and Blu-ray drive did not drop by $200 in that amount of time. They cost a little more than that to manufacture(in total) in the first place. 

The PS3 did get a redesign, not just new SKUs to help push it. 

*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS3_Slim#Slim_model

If this does not count as a redesign, then nothing does.

Whether you are a hardware hacker or not and the number of consoles you've owned and the number of games you have played is irrelevant. My point was that it is stupid to ask a person not to comment on hardware hacks just because he is not one himself. 

And how does playing video games and owning consoles even let you know what the industry trends are? And if you really are a hardware hacker then you will know that it is something that >90% of consumers can't/won't do, even for solder free ones.

Valve's employees have the freedom to choose which project they work on. I work at Valve confirmed. 

Name _one_ Nintendo franchise that is being milked and prove it. The games from those franchises are still selling bloody well.  

Look up the facts before you reply.


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (May 6, 2013)

dead5 said:


> Valve's employees have the freedom to choose which project they work on.* I work at Valve confirmed.*


OT:how is the development of HL2 :EP3 going ?


----------



## heidi2521 (May 6, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> OT:how is the development of HL2 :EP3 going ?



Finished. Held back for 'strategic reasons'.


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 6, 2013)

dead5 said:


> I am not shouting. I was just applying extreme emphasis on that portion of the statement.
> 
> A list of upcoming 3rd party games on the Wii U(not including indies, off the top of my head):
> 
> ...



the last time i checked, typing in caps MEANS YOU ARE SHOUTING . making an extreme point. 

your list of games is like a single word compared to the games the xbox infinity and the ps4 are going to be having after 6 months of their release


*Are you serious? redesigning a cooling system and reattaching wires doesnt count as a console "redesign" *


blu ray drive prices did drop by that amount. 599~799$ was the price of the standalone bluray drive. cbe fabrication shifted to a smaller process reducing costs and also reducing cooling costs. 

No wonder valve sucks, day by day.

every nintendo fp is being milked, mario kart specially. What proof do you want? it is not as if mario kart has changed over the years.

its like coke, been around for 60 years doesnt even taste the same but still sells and every 2-3 years you get a new product like vanilla coke and cherry coke and ...orange coke. Its not so hard to understand

you should look up your facts.


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (May 6, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> the last time i checked, typing in caps MEANS YOU ARE SHOUTING . making an extreme point.
> 
> your list of games is like a single word compared to the games the xbox infinity and the ps4 are going to be having after 6 months of their release
> 
> ...



from PS3 Phat to PS3 Slim
Reduction of 4 USB 2.0 to 2 USB 2.0 ports
Removal of flash card reader
Removal of PS2 BC
Cell processor moved to 45 nm manufacturing process.RSX moved to 40 nm manufacturing process
less power draw due to above mentioned reason.

thats enough changes to be called a redesign.


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 6, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> from PS3 Phat to PS3 Slim
> Reduction of 4 USB 2.0 to 2 USB 2.0 ports
> Removal of flash card reader
> Removal of PS2 BC
> ...



*no thats not redesign. * 

you just removed some stuff. 

move to a smaller fabrication is not because of saving $$, its because its a necessity. If you dont know how semiconductor fabrications work then dont argue on this.


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (May 6, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> *1.no thats not redesign. *
> 
> you just removed some stuff.
> *2.move to a smaller fabrication is not because of saving $$, its because its a necessity. If you dont know how semiconductor fabrications work then dont argue on this.*




1.Says who?Give me a definition of console redesign.(with a source)
2.I never said anything about moving to a smaller manufacturing process is to save dollars


----------



## vickybat (May 6, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> from PS3 Phat to PS3 Slim
> Reduction of 4 USB 2.0 to 2 USB 2.0 ports
> Removal of flash card reader
> Removal of PS2 BC
> ...



It wasn't a redesign mate. You define redesign if the changes impact the overall outcome or result. The ps3 is more or less the same gaming device before and after. Removal of usb controllers 
and lesser fab designs doesn't account for a redesign. You can say it was more like a cosmetic redesign with improved stability. But no performance enhancements. Going to a lower fab was indeed a necessity because manufacturing processes allowed it for the better. The slims were actually even less prone to defects. It cannot be called a redesign in a broad sense.


----------



## CommanderShawnzer (May 6, 2013)

vickybat said:


> It wasn't a redesign mate. You define redesign if the changes impact the overall outcome or result. The ps3 is more or less the same gaming device before and after. Removal of usb controllers
> and lesser fab designs doesn't account for a redesign. You can say it was more like a cosmetic redesign with improved stability. But no performance enhancements. Going to a lower fab was indeed a necessity because manufacturing processes allowed it for the better. The slims were actually even less prone to defects. It cannot be called a redesign in a broad sense.



But then.Which console does give performance enhancements?With an improved version? so,what is the word used for  improved versions of consoles like xbox 360 S,Ps3 Slim,ps2 Slim?


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 6, 2013)

CommanderShawnzer said:


> But then.Which console does give performance enhancements?With an improved version? so,what is the word used for  improved versions of consoles like xbox 360 S,Ps3 Slim,ps2 Slim?



no console gives performance improvements with an improved version. Its just that it has lower power draw and lower heat alongwith improved longevity.

there is no word, its just called SKU's. 

Hardware revisions are neccesity for consoles be it, wii, psp, ps2, ps3, or xbox 360. this allows manufacturers to cut costs and at the same time allow for better pricing and improved features or characteristics.



vickybat said:


> It wasn't a redesign mate. You define redesign if the changes impact the overall outcome or result. The ps3 is more or less the same gaming device before and after. Removal of usb controllers
> and lesser fab designs doesn't account for a redesign. You can say it was more like a cosmetic redesign with improved stability. But no performance enhancements. Going to a lower fab was indeed a necessity because manufacturing processes allowed it for the better. The slims were actually even less prone to defects. It cannot be called a redesign in a broad sense.



thanks for that explanation.+1  

People think if the playstation was painted red, it just got redesigned. 



CommanderShawnzer said:


> 1.Says who?Give me a definition of console redesign.(with a source)
> 2.I never said anything about moving to a smaller manufacturing process is to save dollars



if the ps3 cbe did not move to a smaller fabrication then the ps3 would cease to exist. as simple as that.


----------



## heidi2521 (May 6, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> the last time i checked, typing in caps MEANS YOU ARE SHOUTING . making an extreme point.
> 
> your list of games is like a single word compared to the games the xbox infinity and the ps4 are going to be having after 6 months of their release
> 
> ...



You forget that the PS3 BD was produced on a much larger scale and that normal blu-ray players included costs other than the drive itself, licensing fees paid to Sony and a big phat profit margin.

Mario Kart has *not* changed?

Mario Kart changes with every iteration and comes once every console generation. This does not count as milking. And are you seriously claiming every fp Nintendo franchise has been milked? 3 games in 27 years, each differing from the previous is milking for you? 

The likes of Fifa & Call of Duty are being milked because they bring minimal changes to the game play with each iteration and come every year. They are essentially just new map packs and rosters, not a new game in its entirety. Mario Kart OTOH, changes a fair bit with every iteration and comes once per console. That does not count as milking.



> Verb
> redesign (third-person singular simple present redesigns, present participle redesigning, simple past and past participle redesigned)
> To lay out or plan a new version of something previously laid out or planned.



The PS3 slim definitely fits the definition.

Edit: The Source: *en.wiktionary.org/wiki/redesign


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 6, 2013)

dead5 said:


> You forget that the PS3 BD was produced on a much larger scale and that normal blu-ray players included costs other than the drive itself, licensing fees paid to Sony and a big phat profit margin.
> 
> Mario Kart has *not* changed?
> 
> ...




So? point being that costs dropped. 

*Not* changed. 

How does it change a fair bit? For a nintendo fanboy ( i hope you take no offence in being called one ) mario kart changes just as much as call of duty or FIFA does. 

for gods sake, this is a technical debate. dont bring in literal meaning of words here. 

and even according to that definition the ps3 did not undergo a redesign because :

To lay out or plan a new version of something previously laid out or planned.

planned : play games
after your so called redesign : still play games.


----------



## gagan_kumar (May 6, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> no console gives performance improvements with an improved version. Its just that it has lower power draw and lower heat alongwith improved longevity.
> 
> there is no word, its just called SKU's.
> 
> ...


lol dude srsly u want like gr8 things in small packages??????


----------



## heidi2521 (May 6, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> So? point being that costs dropped.
> 
> *Not* changed.
> 
> ...



Point being that sony did not drop the price to reduce costs to customers, but to bail the console out.

The major changes I can think of the top of my head:

7: Added gliders and underwater racing.
Wii: Online multiplayer, new control scheme, more rebalancing, improved AI. 
DS: Battle Mode, Item rebalancing.
DD: Co-op gameplay
SS: Essentially SMK with new tracks and the features of 64
64: Elevation, analog controls new kinds of tracks, refined items.
SMK: The Original

9 Nintendo platforms since SMK (excluding the Virtual Boy) and 7 games.

If this is milking for you then so is Tekken.

Wait, are you trying to say we should use *figurative* definitions of words in a *Technical* debate?

You are truly showing your english comprehension skills with this part:



> and even according to that definition the ps3 did not undergo a redesign because :
> 
> To lay out or *plan a new version of something previously laid out or planned.*
> 
> ...



Look at bold. The slim is a new version of the PS3 fat. Do note the feature changes mentioned by CommanderShawnzer.


----------



## Extreme Gamer (May 6, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> So? point being that costs dropped. *You said that the PS3 wasn't redesigned. Now you're saying, "So what? It's a cheaper product!" Suddenly the redesign arguement never existed in the first place!*
> 
> *Not* changed. *Yeah, not changed- redesigned, lol.*
> 
> ...



Replies in *bold*, underline and _italics_ *together*.

It seems that after failing to succesfully debate the dreamcasting of the Wii U, you've resorted to derailing the thread about how Nintendo milks franchises and whether sony consoles were redesigned or not.


----------



## vickybat (May 6, 2013)

Desperate times for nintendo.

*Nintendo Offering Conversion Software to Mobile App Devs?*

Is this a valid move or an act of desperation?


----------



## heidi2521 (May 7, 2013)

vickybat said:


> Desperate times for nintendo.
> 
> *Nintendo Offering Conversion Software to Mobile App Devs?*
> 
> Is this a valid move or an act of desperation?



They had announced this at and around GDC 13 so this is old news. IIRC They even demoed the Nintendo Web Framework and Xcode conversion at that time. So this is certainly not a sudden act of desperation. Wii U sales crashed in January and 3 months of time isn't enough to prepare this kind of thing and have it ready for a live demo. 

They must have been working on it since launch at least. So this is not a move of desperation. 

The Wii U may be struggling but times are certainly not desperate for Nintendo itself.


----------



## NoasArcAngel (May 7, 2013)

dead5 said:


> Point being that sony did not drop the price to reduce costs to customers, but to bail the console out.
> 
> The major changes I can think of the top of my head:
> 
> ...



wow so much new... so basically nintendo has been trolling all of you by not releasing all the important features of mario kart in a single release. They have been charging you like EA and activision for Map packs, in fact even more 

psst. even call of duty has snowmobiles  

Words like these dont sound cute when they come out from your mouth. nor does hardcore 

oh yes, tekken is milking no doubt about it. 



Extreme Gamer said:


> Replies in *bold*, underline and _italics_ *together*.
> 
> It seems that after failing to succesfully debate the dreamcasting of the Wii U, you've resorted to derailing the thread about how Nintendo milks franchises and whether sony consoles were redesigned or not.



stop replying in the quote itself. 

Dead5, your brothers english comprehension and even your common sense is that of a 5 year old. 

I never said that the ps3 was not redesigned. Making cosmetic changes like removal of usb ports and flash memory cards does not count as a redesign. Get out of nintendoland guys. 

There is not a redesign because :

1. Core components of the ps3 were not changed

a. blu ray drive
b. xdr ram
c. cbe 
d. rsx gpu
e. architecture. 

if they had shifted from cbe to powerpc or to x86 then yes. 

So yes if sony keeps on putting the playstation hardware in a much more fancy box does not mean that it got redesigned. 

to keep up with the manufacturing, and technical advancements obviously they had to use a smaller fabrication and use a more compact motherboard. This is called as hardware revision, not redesign. 

This way from the ps1 , ps2 , psp , ps3 , xbox 360 every console has had hardware revision even including wii 

im not derailing, im putting the rails to show that wii-u has been dreamcasted.



dead5 said:


> They had announced this at and around GDC 13 so this is old news. IIRC They even demoed the Nintendo Web Framework and Xcode conversion at that time. So this is certainly not a sudden act of desperation. Wii U sales crashed in January and 3 months of time isn't enough to prepare this kind of thing and have it ready for a live demo.
> 
> They must have been working on it since launch at least. So this is not a move of desperation.
> 
> *The Wii U may be struggling* but times are certainly not desperate for Nintendo itself.



there is some hope for this thread now. 

And this is clearly doom time for nintendo. 

Wiiu has been cracked or is almost there. A company which makes its sales primarily on software sales and not hardware is facing a piracy issue on its console which isnt even cheap and hasnt even sold. So im guessing that nintendo is trying as hard as possible to support it financially for some time and then they are going to abandon it like gamecube.

dead5 is a software dev, extreme gamer is a script kiddie gamer. I dont think both of you even qualify for a technical debate specially that on consoles.

Wii - U has been dreamcasted. The longer nintendo stays on this boat the higher the risk for their survival in the future.

this just in :

battlefield which sold a record 9 million is not coming to wii u 

*www.vg247.com/2013/03/27/battlefield-4-skipping-wii-u-to-avoid-risks-says-dice/

now we are going to get mobile games on the wii u . Epic. Nintendo porting mobile games to the wii u .

can i get to play mario look alike on the Wii u ? it will be awesome. 

Why i should i buy a wii u ?

1. no games
2. old hardware
3. low availability
4. selling a tablet pc with a resistive touchscreen and without a keyboard from the 2000's in 2013 for the ultimate second screen experience
5. dead online community
6. no games
7. no games

amazon drops wii-u price to 149 pounds. Omg lol 

*www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/jetse...dramatic-nintendo-wii-u-price-drop-in-the-uk/

if i have to play mobile games on the wii-u, id rather buy the lg nexus 4. Even though it will cost me 2 times it will be worth it. Atleast i get a capacitative touch screen


----------



## heidi2521 (May 7, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> wow so much new... so basically nintendo has been trolling all of you by not releasing all the important features of mario kart in a single release. They have been charging you like EA and activision for Map packs, in fact even more
> 
> psst. even call of duty has snowmobiles
> 
> ...





Replies in *red bold*

FYI, the Wii U is already profitable per unit sold.


----------



## vickybat (May 7, 2013)

dead5 said:


> Replies in *red bold*
> 
> FYI, the Wii U is already profitable per unit sold.



There aren't much units sold. That is the problem.
That's the reason why people think its gonna be dreamcasted. The blitzkrieg titles Nintendo has planned isn't targeted at a major group worldwide but japan only.
I doubt games like pikmin 3 will take off the same way in this generation like before. Nintendo should target the mainstream audience. Battlefield was an important franchise that nintendo lost. They are aware of it.

Same will happen with a lot of upcoming third party titles. The real threat for nintendo are also indie developers. The kind of games nintendo makes are being matched by indie devs that microsoft and sony are pushing so much ( especially sony). That is more than enough to draw the casual crowd.

I often think you are the only one who thinks so positive about nintendo. Well that's a good thing for a loyal fan but i fail to find anything positive about this console in the web or anywhere.
There are just too many loose ends tied with this console.

Hope this does some good to nintendo's sales. 

*Pikmin 3 Preview*

Isn't this targeted towards a casual audience?


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## heidi2521 (May 7, 2013)

vickybat said:


> There aren't much units sold. That is the problem.
> That's the reason why people think its gonna be dreamcasted. The blitzkrieg titles Nintendo has planned isn't targeted at a major group worldwide but japan only.
> I doubt games like pikmin 3 will take off the same way in this generation like before. Nintendo should target the mainstream audience. Battlefield was an important franchise that nintendo lost. They are aware of it.
> 
> ...



You are mistaken if you think that the blitzkrieg is for Japan only. Super Mario 3D, Mario Kart, Super Smash Bros., Pikmin, The Legend of Zelda and the like are quite popular in the west. Retro Studios is an american developer whose games sell well in (you guessed it) America and to some extent europe, but don't gain much traction Japan. The only major game that seems to be Japan focused appears to be Monolith Soft's X. According to sales data Shin Megami Tensei and Fire Emblem are slowly becoming more and more popular in the west, with explosive sales of Fire Emblem: Awakening, so I'd be reluctant to classify SMTXFE as a Japan only or as western focused. Bayonetta is another one that well in the west and Japan. Most of their games also target Japan, but they are not Japan focused. JRPGs have become big in europe, especially in France so X also helps there. 

I am not saying Battlefield isn't important. My point is that Nintendo consoles have never had explosive third party support since the SNES and many a major franchises have skipped the console without Dreamcasting them.

Many indie developers share the gameplay focused philosophies and ideas with Nintendo, but they are nowhere close to matching the kind of games Nintendo makes. You have no Indie Skyward Sword like, no Super Mario 3D Land like, no Luigi's Mansion like etc. The main problem is that indies lack the reach and resources (and platform access) that Nintendo has. 

Frankly, thats why you see quite a few indie devs like Two Tribes, Shin'en Multimedia and Frozenbyte are supportive of the e-shop and that is why Nintendo is taking steps to court them.

I am certainly not the only one who loves his console and thinks that in the long term it will be fine. 

Eg:

Wii U Satisfaction Thread - NeoGAF

I happen to think that the Wii U will manage turn a good profit for Nintendo in the long term even though it won't be as popular as the western consoles primarily because of the insane attach rate Nintendo games have on their consoles and because of the fact that the price of the touchscreen, the most expensive part of the console, is dropping rapidly, while the 3DS rakes in massive amounts of cash and they continue earning the pokemon and merchandising dollars they have been since the 90's. 

The main problem with the Wii U is that Nintendo's long burn policies are biting it in ze arsch. It is not selling well because there are no proper Nintendo games released on it since launch and no major one is coming until August. And as historical data has shown, Nintendo console sales spike sharply with their releases and sell based on them. They revealed their hand too early at E3 2011 allowing M$ony to one up them. Because of that, they are keeping all their pieces close to their heart this time. 

It makes no sense for Nintendo to target the Dudebros like M$ony do because they do not have the resources to participate in a pissing contest to please them and not a single section of their fanbase is comprised of them and abandoning that fanbase would be extremely stupid, lest they fail in capturing the market. What makes Nintendo's games special is the awesome gameplay, art direction and music they have, which dudebros don't really care about and would rather go for a game that says "BLOODY SCREEN. SO REAL!!!" and happen to think "safe for children to play" == "adults can't enjoy this kind of game". Nintendo makes quite a few cinematic games, but no movie games which is also demanded by that audience. 

I don't think that Pikmin 3 is going to be the saving grace of the Wii U, but it does mark the start and provide backup. You would want to get the sales to move a little at least before you drop something like 3D Mario or Mario Kart you know. They will probably have a mega seller like SM/MK/SSB/TLoZ every month/every other month and  have titles like Pikmin, Bayonetta, The Wonderful 101, X etc. fill out the spaces in between. If they do manage to do this and market the consoles and its games properly, it should perform  better than the gamecube at least. 

Nintendo(and by extension the Wii U) is not doomed any time soon because they are in a good position right now as a company and because their policies ensure that their brands don't become giant jokes like Final Fantasy and Crash Bandicoot and that they continue to sell well.



vickybat said:


> Hope this does some good to nintendo's sales.
> 
> *Pikmin 3 Preview*
> 
> Isn't this targeted towards a casual audience?



I don't think casual would be the right word. It is a semi-casual RTS (And RTSs are very hardcore). I wouldn't call this casual because you do need a fair amount of skill to get Olimar to the ship. The controls are simple and easy, but you need time and skill to get things done, something which isn't required for casual games.

Although not a "hardcore" game by any definition, the term "casual" doesn't do it any justice either. It lacks major features of casual games like being suited to short gameplay sessions, being pick up and play, can be played by anyone, from the age of 5 - 105 etc. After you get past the tutorial levels you need a fair amount of skill to proceed. Randomly chucking Pikmin won't get you anywhere. You need to be able to quickly choose and react to the environment and enemies and make sure you don't send too many or too little Pikmin for one task and manage them carefully so that they don't get killed and you don't face a Pikmin shortage. It is stuck in the same category as Flower or Journey in terms of "hardcoreness".


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## vickybat (May 7, 2013)

^^ Ok fair points. Lets see if these really turn out to be true. Actually another problem is m$ony aren't targeting dudebro gamers only. 
They are in nintendo's territory too and not just from an indie perspective but FP. I'm not gonna bring littlebigplanet this time but:

*Knack*

Knack Is The First Announced PlayStation 4 Game. Here's Some Footage.

This came to my mind since you mentioned crash bandicot.

Talk about JRPG''s, sony seems to be having huge plans on that with its ps4 and busy with FP developments probably in its japan studios.
There already was ni-no kuni by namco in ps3.

Making the PS4 a Success (Part 1): A First-Party JRPG Studio

*PS4 title from Level-5 currently “in the planning stages”*

If sony successfully bags a  decent developer and goes after jrpg fanbase ( i think it can do), what happens to Nintendo after that.
Do you think Nintendo can handle diversity of this level?

What happens when final fantasy is Resurrected and enjoys its earlier position? Square enix has already developed a brand new engine and probably touting another final fantasy.


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## heidi2521 (May 7, 2013)

vickybat said:


> ^^ Ok fair points. Lets see if these really turn out to be true. Actually another problem is m$ony aren't targeting dudebro gamers only.
> They are in nintendo's territory too and not just from an indie perspective but FP. I'm not gonna bring littlebigplanet this time but:
> 
> *Knack*
> ...



My point was that it would be foolish for Nintendo to target dudebro gamers like that, not that they are M$ony's sole focus. They are attempting to enter Nintendo territory but that is not their primary focus and they are nowhere near when it comes to sheer quality and brand recognition. Speaking of Sony's Japanese Studios:

SCE Japan Studio: Knack(PS4) - Platformer/Brawler based on current footage
The Last Guardian(PS3/Possibly 4) - If ICO & SOTC are any indication - Action Adventure

Polyphony Digital: Grand Turismo 6- Racing

None of them seem like JRPGs to me.

Right now 3DS is the king of JRPGs with most of the good ones like Bravely Default, Fantasy Life & Megaten releasing on that platform. Nintendo should be able to get a few up ports to the Wii U at least.

I think it will be a situation similar to the PS2 & GC. The PS2 got most of the JRPGs but the Gamecube had some god damn awesome ones like Baten Kaitos(exclusive), Skies of Arcadia(exclusive dreamcast port), The Thousand Year Door, Path of Radiance that made it an awesome platform for JRPG fans.  

You already have Atlus(who make the best JRPGs barring Monolith Soft IMO) on board the Wii U. Nintendo owns Monolith Soft and Intelligent Systems who make really awesome JRPGs(Xenoblade Chronicles and Fire Emblem: Awakening. Nuff said).

To successfully bag the JRPG fan base as exclusives to your you need the above 3 studios,  Level 5 and Namco Tales support and Game Freak. 

Namco Tales has pretty much said "We won't publish on a platform which does not have a massive install base because all our customers already own PS3s" so I don't see them going to the PS4 any time soon unless money hatted(Like how the M$$$ convinced them to make Vesperia an exclusive in the west). They have Level 5 on the PS4. Although not legally obliged, the notion of Game Freak abandoning Nintendo is laughable because they would lose access to the pokemon franchise, their most successful product and because Ken Sugimori, the lead designer is also the president of an Nintendo subsidiary. 

The JRPG fan base only makes up a small part of Nintendo's. So yes. They can handle diversity like this like they did during the n64 & GC days.

Nintendo's core will be threatened when they start making precision platformers on par with Super Mario, action arcade racers on par with Mario Kart (SAASRT is the only one which has come close. LBPK & CTR tried but they failed even if CTR was a good game in its own right), The Legend of Zelda like action adventure games of the same caliber, Smash Bros like fighting games (the Sony attempt forgot that it was supposed to be extremely free flowing and over the top) and JRPG collectathons like Pokemon. As its contracts with platinum have shown, they aren't just sitting there guarding their old fanbase but are expanding their audience too like to over the top action game fans in this case. 

I wasn't making a point of final fantasy itself. My point was that Nintendo tries and ensures that all their games are of a high standard, have good game play and are extremely polished, something which SE did not do with FF. 


BTW, The engine has nothing to with what went wrong with the FF Series. It went wrong when they changed FF from an massive open well populated dynamic game that was never about the graphics to a linear corridor game that primarily acted as a graphical showcase for the PS3. If they can correct that and return FF to its roots then it is good for them(and Sony). However if they keep trying to hit graphical benchmarks, they probably will never succeed in that because the production costs will be too damn high. Just look at how Namco managed with Tales & Atlus with Disgaea. They kept PS2 level assets with a higher rendering resolution and concentrated on the content, art style, music and the gameplay. I.E. the things that make a JRPG a JRPG. 

This lower graphical benchmark(and its explosive popularity in Japan) is one of the main reasons the 3DS is becoming the go to console for JRPGs.


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## gagan_kumar (May 7, 2013)

nitendo is already dead..........RIP..


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## vickybat (May 7, 2013)

dead5 said:


> My point was that it would be foolish for Nintendo to target dudebro gamers like that, not that they are M$ony's sole focus. They are attempting to enter Nintendo territory but that is not their primary focus and they are nowhere near when it comes to sheer quality and brand recognition. Speaking of Sony's Japanese Studios:
> 
> SCE Japan Studio: Knack(PS4) - Platformer/Brawler based on current footage
> The Last Guardian(PS3/Possibly 4) - If ICO & SOTC are any indication - Action Adventure
> ...



I never said Knack is a JRPG and neither brought gran turismo or last guardian into the picture. My point was knack using the same art style themes that nintendo uses.
I would agree with the brand recognition part but not the mention of sheer quality constrained with nintendo. Little big planet has sheer quality and there's no doubt that knack will have it too.

It should be nintendo regretting of not having franchises like Gran-turismo and project TRICO. Its bad that wii-u doesn't have a decent simulator racer.



dead5 said:


> Right now 3DS is the king of JRPGs with most of the good ones like Bravely Default, Fantasy Life & Megaten releasing on that platform. Nintendo should be able to get a few up ports to the Wii U at least.
> 
> I think it will be a situation similar to the PS2 & GC. The PS2 got most of the JRPGs but the Gamecube had some god damn awesome ones like Baten Kaitos(exclusive), Skies of Arcadia(exclusive dreamcast port), The Thousand Year Door, Path of Radiance that made it an awesome platform for JRPG fans.
> 
> ...



If it becomes ps2 and GC scenario all over again, then its sure trouble for Nintendo. As far as i can see, that seems to be happening. Final fantasy is coming back with a bang as square enix publicly addressed the flaws in their previous title and thus they are releasing this:

*Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn*

Not only that but:

*Square Enix Is Making A Final Fantasy Game For PS4. You'll Probably See It At E3 This Year.*

Its based on that luminous engine that i already spoke about before and this game is rumored to be severely open world.

[YOUTUBE]Zks5W-XlghU[/YOUTUBE]

Now a game looking that good, combined with JRPG gameplay elements fans love along with a nice musical track is destined to be a system seller. 
If this title brings back final fantasy roots and paves way how future JRPG's should be designed, what happens next to Nintendo? Square enix seems damn serious to me after their past failures. Success gets in your head eventually and can spell doom sometimes. But to break the shackles of failure and do something unpredictable and unthinkable albeit positively are signs of success. Their efforts in building the luminous engine shows. How the game turns out to be, E3 is going to answer that.

That video honestly had me drooled for some time. The particle effects are staggering ( amd GCN in action) and so are the lighting effects.

Talk about developers, PS4 (Xbox next) is all about developers this time. The next tales of xillia is rumored to be heading for the ps4.
I personally don't have interest in JRPG's but ps4 seems to be destined to have a big share of this market, especially in japan.






dead5 said:


> Nintendo's core will be threatened when they start making precision platformers on par with Super Mario, action arcade racers on par with Mario Kart (SAASRT is the only one which has come close. LBPK & CTR tried but they failed even if CTR was a good game in its own right), The Legend of Zelda like action adventure games of the same caliber, Smash Bros like fighting games (the Sony attempt forgot that it was supposed to be extremely free flowing and over the top) and JRPG collectathons like Pokemon. As its contracts with platinum have shown, they aren't just sitting there guarding their old fanbase but are expanding their audience too like to over the top action game fans in this case.



Well i can't consider mario to be the only ardent platformer around with the advent of games like braid and super meat boy. The second one is the best platformer i've ever played.
Currently, i'm playing "new super mario bros" in a DS emulator and although the game seems good, has the same old feeling and brings nothing extraordinary into the picture.
(Currently in world 8 and skipped world 3 and 7). It doesn't give the sense of thrill that super meat boy brings ( talking strictly about side scrolling games).

Now coming to arcade racers, there's one title which you forgot to mention:

ModNation Racers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PlayStation players also have things to experience something like mario kart and mod nation racers gives just that. The game received critical acclaim and was commercially successful as well. This is the diversity i was talking about before. Nintendo often seems to me like stuck in one place. If Nintendo brings creativity and quality in its games, i see sony doing a better job and also hugely successful in diversifying its games.   

It has something for everybody.....from gran turismo to mod nation racers. Nintendo has to embrace this philosophy imo in the long run.
Just developing games like mod nation racers won't take it anywhere. Completely my take and opinions can differ. But i have a feeling that many would agree with me on this one.

Can't comment on Zelda because i've never played a zelda game before. If its in fantasy action adventure genre, then last guardian, God of war titles are the ones i would look out for. Their predecessors have already proved to be tremendous system sellers in the past. And their caliber simply cannot be questioned.


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## Extreme Gamer (May 7, 2013)

NoasArcAngel said:


> wow so much new... so basically nintendo has been trolling all of you by not releasing all the important features of mario kart in a single release. They have been charging you like EA and activision for Map packs, in fact even more
> 
> psst. even call of duty has snowmobiles
> 
> ...



Genius, I hope you work on your English skills during your vacation. You are contradicting yourself within two simultaneous statements. And next time, do read up what script kiddie means before going around calling me one.

And since when did dead5 become a software dev from a publishing house agent (editor, I think)?



Spoiler



Are you one of those hyper-advanced trollbots that are coming up nowadays? I'd like to talk to your development team. Trolling should be way more subtle, and not so obvious.


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